So... usually I used to believe that once a unit is in base to base... your unit is engaged... and can no longer fire over watch... but this gentleman makes a convincing argument that we've all been doing it wrong...

http://baals-2-the-waals.blogspot.com/2013/01/how-overwatch-works-reasoning-behind-my.html

This is not a new argument. If you search the forum for overwatch i'm sure you'll find a comprehensive break down of both sides.

HIWPI: a model is engaged once they're in base to base contact, regardless of sub-phase.

There is one glaring problem I see with his interpretation. Although the definition of 'Locked' is found in the Fight sub-phase section, nowhere does it state that it only applies during this sub-phase.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
There is one glaring problem I see with his interpretation. Although the definition of 'Locked' is found in the Fight sub-phase section, nowhere does it state that it only applies during this sub-phase.

Yeah if it just applied then we could all shoot and such in the next shooting phases if combat doesn't end that turn.

I checked my Rule book and at the end of the assault movement the models in base contact count as fighting.

Could someone check the last sentence for Assault movement in the English BRB version, i only have a German version and it would be interesting if the wording is similar.

This thread is on the same topic with links to other threads. Read them and discuss with your group.

Silly.

Receiving a charge puts them in combat. You cannot charge something without engaging them.

Bigfashizzel wrote:
Receiving a charge puts them in combat. You cannot charge something without engaging them.

And along that line of thought I give you these rules:

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23)

If getting one model in base contact means the unit is locked in combat, then you can not even move the rest of your charging models, as "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

Is the charge move a pile in move?

P.24 defines what Locked in combat means. it also describes this in the Fight Sub-phase, but it is not limited to the Fight Sub-phase, as you can be locked in combat in the movement and assault phases as well.

So as soon as a charging unit has a model in base contact Either:

A) That unit is not locked in combat until some later point so the rest of the charging unit is free to move the rest of the charging models.
Or
B) That unit is locked in combat as soon as that unit has "one or more models in base contact with enemies" and the charging unit is not free to move the rest of the charging models.

Option B breaks rules and If reading the rules one way results in broken rules, then that is probably not the right way to read rules, so we default to it being option A.

TLDR: Read the threads linked, come to a consensus on it with your opponents before the game on how you are going to play it because this topic has been discussed ad nauseum

If getting one model in base contact means the unit is locked in combat, then you can not even move the rest of your charging models, as "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

But "Charge Move" on page 21 gives you permission to move all the models in the charging unit.
I think that overrules the "units locked in combat can't move" from page 23.

come to a consensus on it with your opponents

I can already predict that people with shooty armies will generally say that you can still overwatch, while the melee-armies tend to go for "no, they are locked in combat."
Being objective about this sort of stuff is really not a basic human trait

the log is posted by a douche bag, we went over this on our FGS Tournament committee with some scrutiny and decided and found no way to interpret it in his way and we even went as far as to get our other FGS committee involved and it was a unanimous 15-0 hell no

 DeathReaper wrote:

A) That unit is not locked in combat until some later point so the rest of the charging unit is free to move the rest of the charging models.
Or
B) That unit is locked in combat as soon as that unit has "one or more models in base contact with enemies" and the charging unit is not free to move the rest of the charging models.

Option B breaks rules and If reading the rules one way results in broken rules, then that is probably not the right way to read rules, so we default to it being option A.

TLDR: Read the threads linked, come to a consensus on it with your opponents before the game on how you are going to play it because this topic has been discussed ad nauseum

Tags an incorrect representation of option B and you know it. Please do not be dishonest.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

A) That unit is not locked in combat until some later point so the rest of the charging unit is free to move the rest of the charging models.
Or
B) That unit is locked in combat as soon as that unit has "one or more models in base contact with enemies" and the charging unit is not free to move the rest of the charging models.

Option B breaks rules and If reading the rules one way results in broken rules, then that is probably not the right way to read rules, so we default to it being option A.

TLDR: Read the threads linked, come to a consensus on it with your opponents before the game on how you are going to play it because this topic has been discussed ad nauseum

Tags an incorrect representation of option B and you know it. Please do not be dishonest.

And this is why I just linked the thread. My personal belief is that a unit is only locked from the start of the following Fight sub-phase until combat is resolved. HIPI is that the first unit in base contact locks the unit.

From evidence given already:

I interpret the moment another model touches another it is locked in combat and that condition is applied across all phases in the game.
If not for that very distinct rule you could argue the assaults were "simultaneous" and some choice could be made.

My Opinion
This would remove some degree of tactics on the assaulting unit, i.e. send in fodder unit, get shot up, send in second "good unit" in the same assault phase.
It "should" reward good tactics.
For a shooty army to sit back and ignore the first assaulting unit and shoot the "good" one just gives even more advantage, never mind the new rules for supporting overwatch fire.
It makes for such a nice argument for Tau armies...

Kangodo wrote:

If getting one model in base contact means the unit is locked in combat, then you can not even move the rest of your charging models, as "While a unit is locked in combat, it may only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." P.23

But "Charge Move" on page 21 gives you permission to move all the models in the charging unit.
I think that overrules the "units locked in combat can't move" from page 23.

come to a consensus on it with your opponents

I can already predict that people with shooty armies will generally say that you can still overwatch, while the melee-armies tend to go for "no, they are locked in combat."
Being objective about this sort of stuff is really not a basic human trait

Can't trumps must in a permissive ruleset unless there is a specific exception like you can't assault on the turn you enter from reserves, but Vanguard vets say that you can assault on the turn you enter from reserves if you have jump packs and use them to DS in. The permission specifically addresses the restriction and as such over-rides it.

There is no such specific permission in the charge move to over-ride locked in combat saying you cant move unless it is a pile in move whilst you have 1 or more models in base contact.

But all of this has been covered in those linked threads.

Read them and come to a consensus with your opponent pre-game.

So if units are only considered locked in combat in the fight sub-phase, does that mean you can shoot into a combat in the shooting phase and move out of a combat in the movement phase?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
So if units are only considered locked in combat in the fight sub-phase, does that mean you can shoot into a combat in the shooting phase and move out of a combat in the movement phase?

The underlined is incorrect, I do not think anyone said that...

Locked is an ongoing condition, that is the whole point of the contention.

The locked condition is described in the fight subphase, but anytime a model is in base contact with an enemy model those units are locked in combat.

Either this means, if you declare a charge you are not locked until the fight subphase and can continue moving charging models as normal, and will continue to be locked until you are no longer in base contact with an enemy model. Or They are locked at anytime there is one or more models in base contact with an enemy model and as such you can not move anything but the first charging model because charge moves are not Pile in moves, and the only move you can make whist locked are pile in moves.

But seriously all of this info is in one of the linked threads.

Read it, Discuss it with your group, come to an agreement pre-game.

DR - no, you're incorrectly representing the other option. Again. Please stop doing so.

rigeld2 wrote:
DR - no, you're incorrectly representing the other option. Again. Please stop doing so.

I am not misrepresenting anything...

When are units locked in combat? (A: anytime a unit has one or more models in base contact. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23))

Can a unit move whilst locked in combat? (A: No, except for pile in moves "While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23))

Is the charge move a Pile in move? (A: No, it does not say that it is a pile in move, so it is not, due to the permissive ruleset).

IMO the rules are a bit broken. Either way you have to break one of the rules.


HIWPI - Locked in combat once the unit has completed its charge.

One of the things that convinced me (while reading another thread) is unlike most other actions, charging is done one unit at a time sequential. As not many sub phases or phases work like this in 40k, from my POV it seems to me to be intentional. If charging was simultaneous, then it would obviosly be different. It would have been easy to say its simultaneous to clear this, rather than pointing out this action spercifically is not.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
DR - no, you're incorrectly representing the other option. Again. Please stop doing so.

I am not misrepresenting anything...

When are units locked in combat? (A: anytime a unit has one or more models in base contact. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23))

Can a unit move whilst locked in combat? (A: No, except for pile in moves "While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23))

Is the charge move a Pile in move? (A: No, it does not say that it is a pile in move, so it is not, due to the permissive ruleset).

Yes, you are misrepresenting. You're assuming, like you always have, that you check for locked during the charge move. There's literally zero rules to support that.
You check when you're told to check. As I've said in every thread about this and you've ignored.

While RAW could be interpreted to mean that a charging unit could not move the rest of its models into combat, per the "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat. While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot" (23), I don't think the other side is clearly wrong either, per "Charge Move" on page 21 gives you permission to move all the models in the charging unit..

Definitely conflicting rules in the BRB right there, but once locked, the unit being charged most definitely cannot fire Overwatch again.

Regarding the Charge Move being a Pile In move, it certainly grants the same function as a Pile In move, though not stated that it specifically is a Pile In move. We Yanks come up with the craziest loopholes That's why we have so many lawyers making billions of dollars.....alas, I'm not one of them :(

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
DR - no, you're incorrectly representing the other option. Again. Please stop doing so.

I am not misrepresenting anything...

When are units locked in combat? (A: anytime a unit has one or more models in base contact. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23))

Can a unit move whilst locked in combat? (A: No, except for pile in moves "While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23))

Is the charge move a Pile in move? (A: No, it does not say that it is a pile in move, so it is not, due to the permissive ruleset).

Yes, you are misrepresenting. You're assuming, like you always have, that you check for locked during the charge move. There's literally zero rules to support that.
You check when you're told to check. As I've said in every thread about this and you've ignored.

You always have to check as Locked applied at all times if a model is in base contact with an enemy model...

this is actually quite clear and I do not see how anyone can interpret the rules like I've seen above tbh....

P21 clearly states that all models in the charging unit move.

P21 also states that a charged unit resolves it's overwatch (if it wants to) after a charge has been declared against the unit.

P23 clearly states that a unit is considered locked in combat when an enemy is in base contact.

the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

P21 overwatch rules state that if you are locked in combat then you cannot overwatch, as you are considered locked in combat when an enemy unit reaches you you cannot shoot at any other units that charge, since each charge is resolved before you reach the fight sub phase.

its very clear and people trying to indicate otherwise are trying to bend/cheat the rules to give the shooters game more advantages it doesn't really need.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

Do you have a rules quote that says that a unit that is locked in combat can make a charge move even if it is locked in combat?

Because as of right now the Locked rules are more specific and you need specific permission to override the locked condition.

To the people that are saying that you are only engaged during the fight sub-phase; given this line of reasoning that means that if you charge me and stay in B2B with my unit, my unit can shoot you in my turn despite being in combat with you. Tell me, are you ok with that? Because there are no two ways about it; either you are not locked except during the fight sub-phase in which case my unit in combat can shoot still despite this, or you are locked once in B2B in which case you cannot overwatch once in B2B. Seems kind of obvious which is right.

No one is saying you are only locked in the fight sub-phase. They are saying you do not get locked until the stay of the very next fight sub-phase.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
To the people that are saying that you are only engaged during the fight sub-phase; given this line of reasoning that means that if you charge me and stay in B2B with my unit, my unit can shoot you in my turn despite being in combat with you. Tell me, are you ok with that? Because there are no two ways about it; either you are not locked except during the fight sub-phase in which case my unit in combat can shoot still despite this, or you are locked once in B2B in which case you cannot overwatch once in B2B. Seems kind of obvious which is right.

How so, you are locked if you have one model in base contact with an enemy you are locked.

So either you can not complete your charge move or they are not locked until the fight subphase where the rules appear.

Furthermore, if you are locked as soon as a model is in base contact, please give a page that gives specific permission for a model to make a move other than pile in (the only type of movement allowed when locked).

 DeathReaper wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

Do you have a rules quote that says that a unit that is locked in combat can make a charge move even if it is locked in combat?

Because as of right now the Locked rules are more specific and you need specific permission to override the locked condition.

Please cite the rule requiring you to check to see if the unit is locked while making a charge move. It seems like you're asserting there is one with zero evidence.

You've been asked before and never produced.

Do we really have to have this discussion again. RAW, they are locked the moment the charging unit completes its movement and you move to the declare next charge. The opponents claim RAW is broken and have made up rules as to when Locked occurs.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

Do you have a rules quote that says that a unit that is locked in combat can make a charge move even if it is locked in combat?

Because as of right now the Locked rules are more specific and you need specific permission to override the locked condition.

Please cite the rule requiring you to check to see if the unit is locked while making a charge move. It seems like you're asserting there is one with zero evidence.

You've been asked before and never produced.

I have actually. To say otherwise is just disingenuous.

Locked is an ongoing condition that applies at any time that a unit has a model in base contact with a model from an enemy unit. (Page 23)

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

Do you have a rules quote that says that a unit that is locked in combat can make a charge move even if it is locked in combat?

Because as of right now the Locked rules are more specific and you need specific permission to override the locked condition.

Please cite the rule requiring you to check to see if the unit is locked while making a charge move. It seems like you're asserting there is one with zero evidence.

You've been asked before and never produced.

I have actually. To say otherwise is just disingenuous.

Locked is an ongoing condition that applies at any time that a unit has a model in base contact with a model from an enemy unit. (Page 23)

Except that's not what page 23 says.
You're told explicitly when locked matters. You're ignoring that for literally no reason.

So youre not locked until the Fight Sub Phase then? As that is the point at which youre told to check for this condition.

This is how me and my brother play: A unit charges another unit, that unit then fires overwatch, regardless of whether or not the assaulting unit rolled enough charge distance, the next unit to then assault does not have overreach fired against it. I hope that helps.

That isnt the situaiton describe d- that is already prohibited as you can only fire overwatch once per turn.

The situation is whether you can be successfully charged yet still fire at another unit that also charges you in that phase. It comes down to when you check for "locked" - when you reach the fight subphase, or earlier.

I believe as soon as a unit is in a base contact assault they are locked and cannot fire overwatch at any other units that charge them that phase. Unless I'm completely missing the point of the thread?

So you are then compelled to follow the rule that states that you can only make pile in moves while locked, and a charge move is not a pile in move.

Meaning the first model to contact the unit "locks" them, and they must stop, as the move chargers section does not contain a specific override of the other section.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So youre not locked until the Fight Sub Phase then? As that is the point at which youre told to check for this condition.

And when you attempt to overwatch. And when you begin an attempt to move.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

Do you have a rules quote that says that a unit that is locked in combat can make a charge move even if it is locked in combat?

Because as of right now the Locked rules are more specific and you need specific permission to override the locked condition.

Please cite the rule requiring you to check to see if the unit is locked while making a charge move. It seems like you're asserting there is one with zero evidence.

You've been asked before and never produced.

I've been asked before and never produced??? I have been at work and asleep and have only just come back to the thread now tyvm....people have lives outside of keyboard warrior forums...

in response to asking for evidence, quoting direct rules is against the forum rules. P21 regarding overwatch states you cannot make it if you are locked in combat, P23 dictates when and where you are considered locked in combat (i.e. base to base) P21 also gives the very clear description of how a charge move is performed.

you also do not enter the fight sub phase until after all charges have been condicted, this is clearly displayed on P23.

units are considered locked in combat as soon as a model makes it in base to base contact with them, this is on P23.

when I get home and get my rulebook in front of me I'll direct you to the exact paragraph entries that state this.

before you reply please do read the entries on those pages.

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So youre not locked until the Fight Sub Phase then? As that is the point at which youre told to check for this condition.

And when you attempt to overwatch. And when you begin an attempt to move.

Why not during a move?

 nutty_nutter wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
the given silly points that a charging unit can only make pile in moves is overridden by p21 that states that all models in a charging unit move.

Do you have a rules quote that says that a unit that is locked in combat can make a charge move even if it is locked in combat?

Because as of right now the Locked rules are more specific and you need specific permission to override the locked condition.

Please cite the rule requiring you to check to see if the unit is locked while making a charge move. It seems like you're asserting there is one with zero evidence.

You've been asked before and never produced.

I've been asked before and never produced??? I have been at work and asleep and have only just come back to the thread now tyvm....people have lives outside of keyboard warrior forums...

in response to asking for evidence, quoting direct rules is against the forum rules. P21 regarding overwatch states you cannot make it if you are locked in combat, P23 dictates when and where you are considered locked in combat (i.e. base to base) P21 also gives the very clear description of how a charge move is performed.

you also do not enter the fight sub phase until after all charges have been condicted, this is clearly displayed on P23.

units are considered locked in combat as soon as a model makes it in base to base contact with them, this is on P23.

when I get home and get my rulebook in front of me I'll direct you to the exact paragraph entries that state this.

before you reply please do read the entries on those pages.

Perhaps before flying off the handle you should notice who I quoted (and therefore was responding to).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So youre not locked until the Fight Sub Phase then? As that is the point at which youre told to check for this condition.

And when you attempt to overwatch. And when you begin an attempt to move.

Why not during a move?

Because you're not told to.

Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

But the text on charge-moves allows you to finish it, so I don't really see the problem..

And really, is it that hard to stay nice while discussing a rule?
You're not talking to your dog or anything.
Hint: http://www.socialskillscentral.com/free/101_Ways_Teach_Children_Social_Skills.pdf

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

p21, overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack.

p12 under Who Can Shoot? units being locked in CC cannot shoot.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

You're not making sense.

You're saying that you're not locked until you check (the Fight Sub-phase) but that if that's not true then you're locked without checking.
Unless I'm not understanding what you mean.

You are locked when you are told to check. The information on page 23 tells you how to determine if you're locked in combat.

rigeld2 wrote:
You are locked when you are told to check.

Incorrect, A unit is locked any time that unit has a model in base contact with an enemy. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

This is an ongoing condition and does not stop until there are no models in base contact with enemies.

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

You're not making sense.

You're saying that you're not locked until you check (the Fight Sub-phase) but that if that's not true then you're locked without checking.
Unless I'm not understanding what you mean.

You are locked when you are told to check. The information on page 23 tells you how to determine if you're locked in combat.

Except the actual rule for locked gives no indication you are *only* locked when told to check - it in fact states a condition (in base) and a result.

Page and graph, as requested, for your assertion that you are only locked when told to check for the condition.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You are locked when you are told to check.

Incorrect, A unit is locked any time that unit has a model in base contact with an enemy. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

This is an ongoing condition and does not stop until there are no models in base contact with enemies.

Cite permission to check for locked prior to the Fight subphase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

You're not making sense.

You're saying that you're not locked until you check (the Fight Sub-phase) but that if that's not true then you're locked without checking.
Unless I'm not understanding what you mean.

You are locked when you are told to check. The information on page 23 tells you how to determine if you're locked in combat.

Except the actual rule for locked gives no indication you are *only* locked when told to check - it in fact states a condition (in base) and a result.

Page and graph, as requested, for your assertion that you are only locked when told to check for the condition.

Cite permission to check for locked prior to the Fight subphase.

Ah, slight chicken and egg situaiton
We havea rule (locked) that does not make a requirement that you are only in this state when told to check for this state, AND you meet the condition

Yet you are requiring a rule to let you check for this condition being present, despite this condition having no such requirement

Page and graph for your assertion?

 Happyjew wrote:
No one is saying you are only locked in the fight sub-phase. They are saying you do not get locked until the stay of the very next fight sub-phase.

If you are not locked until the start of the next fight, then you are only locked during that fight sub-phase, and it is the same thing. It still would mean that despite being in B2B with enemies during my shooting phase that I'm not locked and thus can still shoot, and we all know you can't do that.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
No one is saying you are only locked in the fight sub-phase. They are saying you do not get locked until the stay of the very next fight sub-phase.

If you are not locked until the start of the next fight, then you are only locked during that fight sub-phase, and it is the same thing. It still would mean that despite being in B2B with enemies during my shooting phase that I'm not locked and thus can still shoot, and we all know you can't do that.

No, that isnt what Happy said at all. You are not locked *until*, meaning you are THEN locked. Nothing about that allows you to conclude you are ONLY locked at that point, and no furhter. Please read more carefully next time.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Ah, slight chicken and egg situaiton
We havea rule (locked) that does not make a requirement that you are only in this state when told to check for this state, AND you meet the condition

Yet you are requiring a rule to let you check for this condition being present, despite this condition having no such requirement

Page and graph for your assertion?

Wrong way round bucko.

A rule exists explaining what locked means. You need permission to check the rule. You're trying to enforce it without referencing it.
Just like trying to use any wound allocation method without a shooting attack - you need a rule to reference it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
No one is saying you are only locked in the fight sub-phase. They are saying you do not get locked until the stay of the very next fight sub-phase.

If you are not locked until the start of the next fight, then you are only locked during that fight sub-phase, and it is the same thing. It still would mean that despite being in B2B with enemies during my shooting phase that I'm not locked and thus can still shoot, and we all know you can't do that.

No, that isnt what Happy said at all. You are not locked *until*, meaning you are THEN locked. Nothing about that allows you to conclude you are ONLY locked at that point, and no furhter. Please read more carefully next time.

Yes, he is saying you are not locked until the next fight sub-phase, but are then locked. That is the exact same thing as saying you are not locked before the fight sub-phase. And if you are not locked before the fight sub-phase, but are once it begins, please list the phases in which you are locked; it results in only one, the fight sub-phase, so it is the same thing. You end up with the same result, so really he is saying you are only locked in the fight sub-phase. And my point is if I am not locked until the fight sub-phase, then there would be nothing to stop my guys in combat from shooting in my shooting phase, since I'm apparently not locked until the fight sub-phase, and I think this is obviously ludicrous.

Anyway, i couldn't care less anymore; reading over this thread, it is kind of a joke and looks more like a schoolyard squabble of 'he did it, she did it' than a serious discussion on rules. So much snark it's not funny.

You're reading too much into it. There's no snark (from my end at least).

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
You are locked when you are told to check.

Incorrect, A unit is locked any time that unit has a model in base contact with an enemy. "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

This is an ongoing condition and does not stop until there are no models in base contact with enemies.

Cite permission to check for locked prior to the Fight subphase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

You're not making sense.

You're saying that you're not locked until you check (the Fight Sub-phase) but that if that's not true then you're locked without checking.
Unless I'm not understanding what you mean.

You are locked when you are told to check. The information on page 23 tells you how to determine if you're locked in combat.

Except the actual rule for locked gives no indication you are *only* locked when told to check - it in fact states a condition (in base) and a result.

Page and graph, as requested, for your assertion that you are only locked when told to check for the condition.

Cite permission to check for locked prior to the Fight subphase.

Please see my earlier post....

Post 2013/08/19 17:03:34 Subject: Is this blog post right? have we been doing overwatch wrong?

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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.

You're not making sense.

You're saying that you're not locked until you check (the Fight Sub-phase) but that if that's not true then you're locked without checking.
Unless I'm not understanding what you mean.

You are locked when you are told to check. The information on page 23 tells you how to determine if you're locked in combat.


nutty_nutter
Post 2013/08/19 16:58:33 Subject: Is this blog post right? have we been doing overwatch wrong?

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nosferatu1001 wrote:
Why do you need to be told to check you are locked? The condition on "locked" certainly gives you no direction to do so

Page and paragraph showing this requirement. Otherwise the statement of when you are locked applies all the time you are locked.


p21, overwatch is resolved like a normal shooting attack.

p12 under Who Can Shoot? units being locked in CC cannot shoot.

This thread is ludicrous. By the assertions of some posters (you can only check to see if a unit is "Locked" when given explicit permission) the following occurs:

- Check at the start of the Fight Sub-phase in Player A's turn to see if a unit is Locked.
- Locked unit belonging to Player B fights hand to hand combat, wins, is no longer in base to base, but you are not given permission to check to see if a unit is still Locked
- Player B's turn begins, but still no permission to check to see if a unit is Locked. Therefore the unit's state is either still Locked, or is indeterminate. Player B's unit cannot Move or Shoot

Not that I think this one post will solve this argument, but it's such an asinine position I felt I had to comment. You are either continuously monitoring whether a unit is Locked, or you aren't and they're stuck in that state until the start of the next Fight Sub-phase. You can't have it both ways.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
This thread is ludicrous. By the assertions of some posters (you can only check to see if a unit is "Locked" when given explicit permission) the following occurs:

- Check at the start of the Fight Sub-phase in Player A's turn to see if a unit is Locked.
- Locked unit belonging to Player B fights hand to hand combat, wins, is no longer in base to base, but you are not given permission to check to see if a unit is still Locked
- Player B's turn begins, but still no permission to check to see if a unit is Locked. Therefore the unit's state is either still Locked, or is indeterminate. Player B's unit cannot Move or Shoot

Not that I think this one post will solve this argument, but it's such an asinine position I felt I had to comment. You are either continuously monitoring whether a unit is Locked, or you aren't and they're stuck in that state until the start of the next Fight Sub-phase. You can't have it both ways.

No, that's not my position at all.
It's not a continuous effect. It's a rule that explains what locked means. You're told when to check - which means that in your example Player B would be fine.

rigeld2 wrote:

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
This thread is ludicrous. By the assertions of some posters (you can only check to see if a unit is "Locked" when given explicit permission) the following occurs:

- Check at the start of the Fight Sub-phase in Player A's turn to see if a unit is Locked.
- Locked unit belonging to Player B fights hand to hand combat, wins, is no longer in base to base, but you are not given permission to check to see if a unit is still Locked
- Player B's turn begins, but still no permission to check to see if a unit is Locked. Therefore the unit's state is either still Locked, or is indeterminate. Player B's unit cannot Move or Shoot

Not that I think this one post will solve this argument, but it's such an asinine position I felt I had to comment. You are either continuously monitoring whether a unit is Locked, or you aren't and they're stuck in that state until the start of the next Fight Sub-phase. You can't have it both ways.

No, that's not my position at all.
It's not a continuous effect. It's a rule that explains what locked means. You're told when to check - which means that in your example Player B would be fine.

Player B would not be fine. The unit is Locked until you check and it is no longer Locked. The rules never explicitly say to check again at any later point, and the only way to know if the unit is locked or not is to literally "check" by looking. So by your logic, you mark them "Locked" when you check at the start of the Fight Sub-Phase, and you have to assume this is still true at points beyond, including during combat resolution. You're either continuously monitoring the unit's state, checking to see if they're Locked anytime you want or need to Move or Shoot, or you're putting the unit in Schrodinger's Box. Simply because the rulebook defines the phrase "locked" at the start of the relevant section, does not mean that is the ONLY time you check to see if the unit is locked.

For what it's worth, the word "locked" is actually used at the very start of the Assault Phase chapter (p 20) as an example of units disallowed from charging: "[If] The unit is already locked in close combat (see page 23)." You are clearly supposed to "check" before attempting to charge, just as you would check before attempting to move or shoot (yes even overwatch). To argue otherwise is to say that the unit gains the status "locked" at a single point in the turn, and retains it until you are allowed to check again at the next Fight Sub-Phase, which as I pointed out, breaks the entire game.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
It is a persistent state - the unit is Locked until you check and it is no longer Locked. If you are ONLY allowed to check when given permission, you're constructing a Schrodinger's Box. You're either continuously monitoring the unit's state, checking to see if they're Locked anytime you want to Move or Shoot, or you mark them "Locked" when you check at the start of the Fight Sub-Phase and you have to assume this is still true at points beyond.

No - it's not a persistent state. You check when you're told. If they're locked when you're told to check, they're locked. If they're not, they're not. It's not that hard.

What about when you want to move at the start of the next turn? You aren't told to check. So you're saying it IS a persistent state - you checked last turn at the one point it is explicitly mentioned, and the unit was locked. They are only no longer locked as soon as you check against the definition of "locked" and it is no longer true. Technically you wouldn't even be able to make a consolidation move after combat without checking to see if the unit is still locked. Just face it, there are numerous points where you check to see if a unit is locked besides the start of the Fight Sub-phase.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
What about when you want to move at the start of the next turn? You aren't told to check.

Really? Let's check page 10...

Units already locked in close combat with the enemy cannot move during the Movement phase.

Oh - nope, that statement is wrong.

So you're saying it IS a persistent state - you checked last turn at the one point it is explicitly mentioned, and the unit was locked. Technically you wouldn't even be able to make a consolidation move after combat without checking to see if the unit is still locked. Just face it, there are numerous points where you check to see if a unit is locked besides the start of the Fight Sub-phase.

Yes - and you're told every time. That doesn't mean it's persistent. It means you're told to check and those times you're told to check are the only ones that matter.

And on page 21, you're told to check before firing Overwatch. How is that any different?

"It's worth pointing out that units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch"

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
And on page 21, you're told to check before firing Overwatch. How is that any different?

"It's worth pointing out that units that are locked in close combat cannot fire Overwatch"

It's not? I never said it is...

Were we violently agreeing?

Probably! I was going for argumentum ad absurdum. A unit that has just been charged is locked and can't Overwatch at a second charging unit instead. You have to check anytime it's relevant, not just the start of the Fight Sub-Phase, otherwise the whole game breaks.

A unit is locked in combat when they are in BTB with an enemy model. pg 23

A charge move allows you to move all of the models in the charging unit into BTB with an enemy model. pg 21.

Charges are sequential, not simultaneous as shown by the order on page 20. specifically #5 Declare next charge.

Models locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21.

That is RAW.

This is a silly discussion. Just because the term "locked" is defined during the subphase doesnt mean thats the only time you check it.

Might as well say you cant shoot with bolters because its defined after the shooting phase in the BRB.


RAW- If you are in base to base you are in Combat. End of discussion.

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not a continuous effect. It's a rule that explains what locked means. You're told when to check - which means that in your example Player B would be fine.

This is 100% incorrect...

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

This applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
It's not a continuous effect. It's a rule that explains what locked means. You're told when to check - which means that in your example Player B would be fine.

This is 100% incorrect...

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

This applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy...

No, that's not true. You must (meaning there is no option) have a reference to apply a rule.
During a charge move there is no reference requiring you to apply the rule.
Prior to making a charge move there is.
Prior to making a normal move there is.
Prior to shooting there is.
Prior to overwatch there is.

You've cited literally zero rules to support this "ongoing state" argument other than the sentence you've quoted. The sentence you've quoted does not say it's an ongoing state/continuous effect/whatever you want to call it.
You've shown zero rules support.

The rule either applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy, Or it does not apply at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy

Which is it?

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule either applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy, Or it does not apply at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy

Which is it?

The rule applies any time a model is in base to base. The definition for when a model is locked gives no mention of when it is applied or checked; it's a blanket definition.

However, the rulebook gives specific times that you should check to see if a model is locked (before Moving, Shooting, Charging, Overwatch). It also explicitly gives permission to do certain things, like move all the models in a unit when Charging, or Falling Back after losing a close combat (edit: it's not so much permission as instruction, you are REQUIRED to do those things). Those would both be cases of moving models in units that are technically locked in combat - the rulebook specifically tells you to do this. This really should not be contentious, but GW couldn't write watertight rules to save their lives.

So if it applies "any time a model is in base to base"

It applied as soon as the initial charger gets into base contact...

 DeathReaper wrote:
So if it applies "any time a model is in base to base"

It applied as soon as the initial charger gets into base contact...

But as the unit moves as a whole. You would move your entire unit it's charge move as pg 21 tells you to, then be considered locked in combat.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So if it applies "any time a model is in base to base"

It applied as soon as the initial charger gets into base contact...

But as the unit moves as a whole. You would move your entire unit it's charge move as pg 21 tells you to, then be considered locked in combat.

Except then you would have models making non pile in or fallback moves whilst the unit is locked in combat.

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So if it applies "any time a model is in base to base"

It applied as soon as the initial charger gets into base contact...

But as the unit moves as a whole. You would move your entire unit it's charge move as pg 21 tells you to, then be considered locked in combat.

Except then you would have models making non pile in or fallback moves whilst the unit is locked in combat.

Which is fine, since the rulebook very, very clearly tells you to do just that. It even gives really detailed instructions on how to do it. This is what's called an "exception to the rule."

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So if it applies "any time a model is in base to base"

It applied as soon as the initial charger gets into base contact...

But as the unit moves as a whole. You would move your entire unit it's charge move as pg 21 tells you to, then be considered locked in combat.

Except then you would have models making non pile in or fallback moves whilst the unit is locked in combat.

Which is fine, since the rulebook very, very clearly tells you to do just that. It even gives really detailed instructions on how to do it. This is what's called an "exception to the rule."

And when you have a restriction, you must have specific permission to override said restriction (which charging does not have).

You have no permission to interrupt the charge move to check for locked.

Charge move is specific permission to move "ALL" of you models into BTB.

Getting more specific, move (movement phase) or shoot (shooting phase) is not equal to "charge move", which is a narrowly defined action.

Finally, your entire argument has zero RAW basis.. The entirety of it is "RAW charge moves dont work so I can fire Overwatch."

 Happyjew wrote:
And when you have a restriction, you must have specific permission to override said restriction (which charging does not have).

Locked in CC says they cannot move.
Charge Move says you must move them into base contact.

Conclusion: GW rule-writers do not have a Master of Laws academic degree.
Let's do the logical thing and allow the player to finish his charge move, okay?

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule either applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy, Or it does not apply at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy

Which is it?

It does not apply at all times.
The restriction applies when it is checked for.

So units are not locked when they have one or more models in base contact with an enemy?

The rules disagree.

This thread (just like that last few times it came up) is going nowhere. All relevant arguments have been made. It needs an FAQ (IMO). Can we please just get this locked?

 DeathReaper wrote:
So units are not locked when they have one or more models in base contact with an enemy?

The rules disagree.

That's not what I said. Do not misrepresent my position.
Units are locked when you have permission to check if they are locked.
Cite permission to check during a charge move. You've utterly failed to do so. Instead you've pretended that a definition of "locked" creates a continuous effect that occurs without the rule even being referenced.
How do I know to check for locked status? Why am I checking for locked status without being told to?

Boil it down:
For a rule to apply you must be told it applies.
You are told, explicitly, what rules apply during a charge move.
None of them (that is, not a single rule) refer to the locked status of a unit.

But please - hang your hat on an unsupported hook and pretend you're right. I'll be over here using the actual rules and understanding how a permissive rule set works.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So units are not locked when they have one or more models in base contact with an enemy?

The rules disagree.

That's not what I said. Do not misrepresent my position.
Units are locked when you have permission to check if they are locked.

The rules disagree with you.

Units are locked when they have a model in base contact with an enemy. (Page 23 tells us this)

Got anything else because you have shown no rules that agree with your assertation.

Its like Synapse. Its always happening but you don't apply the effects until you need to check for Synapse.

When my units are outside synapse range they are subject to Feed or Lurk. The codex tells me when I am considered in and out of synapse. However, I can be outside synapse and not yet subject to feed or lurk, becuase I am not at a point to check for it.

that is not a correct assertion, do not confuse army specific abbilities with core rules for game play, your army specific only applies during a set phase and over-rides the core books normal movement phase.


with regards to the arguement.

I do not see where you are comming from regeld2.

it is very clear on p23 what constitues the locked status, it isn't conditional, and does not apply only when your asked to check. it is very clear when locked status is applied to you.

it is applied once an enemy completes a charge agasint you and is in base contact with your unit. that unit is considered locked until it is either destroyed or no longer in base contact.

the logic of requiring to check if status' apply is very flawed as by it's deffinition no model is wareing armour unless you have to check to see if they do.

also by the same logic, SR's such as furious charge for example would never come into effect as at no point during the charge step are you asked to check if you have such rules.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule either applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy, Or it does not apply at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy

Which is it?

It does not apply at all times.
The restriction applies when it is checked for.

Yet that isnt what the rule states. The rule states they ARE locked. Not, they ARE locked only when you check to see if this condition is true

You have provided literally no rules to support your assertion that they ARE locked only when checked, despite being asked.
Page and graph, or concede you have made up that requirement. Reminders (which is all you have provided so far) do not count.

It's super simple, guys. The 6th edition ruleset was written AFTER 8th Fantasy.

The 8th edition Fantasy rules allow to stand and shoot any unit that charges them and it's written pretty damned clearly. If GW really wanted overwatch to work the same way, they would have.

It doesn't. You either get to fire at the first unit that charges you or risk no overwatch should they make since each charge move is resolved one at time versus that of Fantasy which is simultaneously.

Also, this:

Fragile wrote:
A unit is locked in combat when they are in BTB with an enemy model. pg 23

A charge move allows you to move all of the models in the charging unit into BTB with an enemy model. pg 21.

Charges are sequential, not simultaneous as shown by the order on page 20. specifically #5 Declare next charge.

Models locked in combat cannot fire Overwatch. pg 21.

That is RAW.

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So units are not locked when they have one or more models in base contact with an enemy?

The rules disagree.

That's not what I said. Do not misrepresent my position.
Units are locked when you have permission to check if they are locked.

The rules disagree with you.

Units are locked when they have a model in base contact with an enemy. (Page 23 tells us this)

Got anything else because you have shown no rules that agree with your assertation.

You're applying a rule without it being referenced. That's not how the rules actually work. It can't be.
Page 23 defines locked. It does not say that it's a continuous effect.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
The rule either applies at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy, Or it does not apply at all times when a unit has a model in base contact with an enemy

Which is it?

It does not apply at all times.
The restriction applies when it is checked for.

Yet that isnt what the rule states. The rule states they ARE locked. Not, they ARE locked only when you check to see if this condition is true

You have provided literally no rules to support your assertion that they ARE locked only when checked, despite being asked.
Page and graph, or concede you have made up that requirement. Reminders (which is all you have provided so far) do not count.

No, I won't concede. You're asking me to quote something that is a basis of a permissive rule set - that you only apply a rule when it's referenced.

How does the Doom of Malantai allocate wounds?

rigeld2 wrote:


How does the Doom of Malantai allocate wounds?

Anywhere he damn well pleases... from my experience.

Regardless of whether the first model to make contact during a charge locks the unit (I actually believe it DOES lock the unit), the rulebook very clearly and explicitly tells you to move the rest of the charging unit, and gives detailed instructions on how you must do this. This would override any generic rule such as the definition of locked. The only reason this is still an argument is because some people are being intentionally obtuse.

So youre saying they are not locked until you check to see if they are locked? That is the basis of your argument?

The rule IS in effect, because it states "ARE" locked. Not "are locked when you check this rule"

If you were replying to me, no I'm not saying that. I'm saying the rule IS in effect at all times and can be referenced anytime, but if you are given specific instructions to break it, such as completing a charge move, you obviously should break it. Sloppy writing but it's the only logical way to interpret things.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So youre saying they are not locked until you check to see if they are locked? That is the basis of your argument?

You say that like it's changed. It hasn't.

The rule IS in effect, because it states "ARE" locked. Not "are locked when you check this rule"

All rules only apply when checked. Saying otherwise is a basic failure to understand how the rules work.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
So units are not locked when they have one or more models in base contact with an enemy?

The rules disagree.

That's not what I said. Do not misrepresent my position.
Units are locked when you have permission to check if they are locked.

The rules disagree with you.

Units are locked when they have a model in base contact with an enemy. (Page 23 tells us this)

Got anything else because you have shown no rules that agree with your assertation.

You're applying a rule without it being referenced. That's not how the rules actually work. It can't be.
Page 23 defines locked. It does not say that it's a continuous effect.

It does not need to say it is a continuous effect, it is an "If Then" statement. If at any time the condition is fulfilled then the effects are applied.

But you have to check if you are locked when making a normal move, as "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

So if you are moving a model you have to check to make sure the unit is not locked in combat.

rigeld2 wrote:

All rules only apply when checked. Saying otherwise is a basic failure to understand how the rules work.

again, and I am startnig to get annoyed that you have been ignoring me, at what point do you 'check' to see if a unit has a Special Rule such as furious charge? you don't, the charge step and the fight step do not cover it, the models simply 'have' it.

the very fact that locked in combat is refered to being in base contact is very clear, once you are in base contact you are locked. this is an ongoing state as you are in base to base contact until you aren't.

you either are in base to base (so you are locked) or your not in base to base (not locked) its very simple and is effectivly a light switch.

each charge is resolved indavidually, people have given you the break down now numerous times regarding overwatch, the simple fact is, you can only overwatch once per turn, you can only do so when not locked in combat, you are locked in combat once a charge is completed against you.

all models in a unit that has charged are given specific movement instructions that happen in the charge sub-phase that allow them to finish the move once the unit is locked in combat, any and all further movement is pile in moves. this will continue until either one unit is destroyed, or they fail a moral test due to loosing the combat and escape.

what more is there? you cannot shoot in any following shooting phases due to being locked in combat, you cannot fire overwatch later in the phase as you are locked in combat (presuming the first unit charged sucessfully and you didn't fire overwatch) and you certainly cannot move in any following movement phases due to being locked. the only movement allowed after being locked are pile in moves.

 DeathReaper wrote:
It does not need to say it is a continuous effect, it is an "If Then" statement. If at any time the condition is fulfilled then the effects are applied.

It really does need to say that. Again - and you've refused to answer this before so why I'm asking again I'm not sure - why are you applying an effect without some rule telling you to?

But you have to check if you are locked when making a normal move, as "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

So if you are moving a model you have to check to make sure the unit is not locked in combat.

The bolded is incorrect. You move as a unit. You have zero rules support for making the check during movement. The check was made prior to movement.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

All rules only apply when checked. Saying otherwise is a basic failure to understand how the rules work.

again, and I am startnig to get annoyed that you have been ignoring me, at what point do you 'check' to see if a unit has a Special Rule such as furious charge? you don't, the charge step and the fight step do not cover it, the models simply 'have' it.

the very fact that locked in combat is refered to being in base contact is very clear, once you are in base contact you are locked. this is an ongoing state as you are in base to base contact until you aren't.

you either are in base to base (so you are locked) or your not in base to base (not locked) its very simple and is effectivly a light switch.

each charge is resolved indavidually, people have given you the break down now numerous times regarding overwatch, the simple fact is, you can only overwatch once per turn, you can only do so when not locked in combat, you are locked in combat once a charge is completed against you.

all models in a unit that has charged are given specific movement instructions that happen in the charge sub-phase that allow them to finish the move once the unit is locked in combat, any and all further movement is pile in moves. this will continue until either one unit is destroyed, or they fail a moral test due to loosing the combat and escape.

what more is there? you cannot shoot in any following shooting phases due to being locked in combat, you cannot fire overwatch later in the phase as you are locked in combat (presuming the first unit charged sucessfully and you didn't fire overwatch) and you certainly cannot move in any following movement phases due to being locked. the only movement allowed after being locked are pile in moves.

Nut - you’re agreeing with the outcome Rig is arguing in favor of, just disagreeing with his methodology.

One side is arguing the rules for locked in combat ;blanket; are applied either
-Soon as the conditions are met, E.G the initial charger is in base contact.
outcome-This then leads to the fact you can not move any other chargers as the locked in combat rules allow you to make pile in moves, and pile in moves only. I believe I am correct in saying Nos, DR and Rig agree that the RAW for moving the remaining chargers is insufficient to actually allow you to do it when 'Locked in combat' is being referenced.
OR
- The unit is not locked in combat until the fight sub phase after the charges, to avoid the mess the rules create above.
outcome-This would mean you can fire overwatch after being successfully charged, within that same phase.



The other side is arguing the rules for locked in combat are...
-Referenced when performing an action where that rule then comes in to play.
outcome-This frees the chargers to complete their movement, as the rule will not be referenced mid action, but will come into play when attempting to perform prohibited actions (Via locked in combat) in the following sequences / phases / turns.


In my words

 Nem wrote:
One side is arguing the rules for locked in combat ;blanket; are applied either
-Soon as the conditions are met, E.G the initial charger is in base contact.
outcome-This then leads to the fact you can not move any other chargers as the locked in combat rules allow you to make pile in moves, and pile in moves only. I believe I am correct in saying Nos, DR and Rig agree that the RAW for moving the remaining chargers is insufficient to actually allow you to do it when 'Locked in combat' is being referenced.
OR
- The unit is not locked in combat until the fight sub phase after the charges, to avoid the mess the rules create above.
outcome-This would mean you can fire overwatch after being successfully charged, within that same phase.

Nos and DR assert that the second must be true because the first leads to an incomplete charge.
I assert that neither is actually true, and that

The other side is arguing the rules for locked in combat are...
-Referenced when performing an action where that rule then comes in to play.
outcome-This frees the chargers to complete their movement, as the rule will not be referenced mid action, but will come into play when attempting to perform prohibited actions (Via locked in combat) in the following sequences / phases / turns.

This is the actual way the rules work.

rigeld2 wrote:

But you have to check if you are locked when making a normal move, as "Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

So if you are moving a model you have to check to make sure the unit is not locked in combat.

The bolded is incorrect. You move as a unit. You have zero rules support for making the check during movement. The check was made prior to movement.

Each model in a unit moves. The whole unit does not have to move (in the movement phase as normal)

Each model in the unit has to move during a charge move.

However there is an ongoing condition that states "While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23)

and the unit is locked if it has one or more models in base contact with an enemy.

But you are not going to understand this and have brought up "Allowed to check" as an argument when nothing in the rules says that.

the rules for locked in combat are applied at any time the conditions are met, as the rule is a simple If Then statement without caveat.

Play it how you want, that is not going to change what the rules say.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Each model in a unit moves. The whole unit does not have to move (in the movement phase as normal)

Red herring - I've never said otherwise. Not even sure why you brought it up.

Each model in the unit has to move during a charge move.

However there is an ongoing condition that states "While a unit is locked in combat, it rnay only make Pile In moves and cannot otherwise move or shoot." (23)

So... you do or don't check before the unit moves? Because the rules say you do. It's not even a reminder - it's a requirement to be able to declare a charge (20)

But you are not going to understand this and have brought up "Allowed to check" as an argument when nothing in the rules says that.

Oh, I understand your argument completely. It has no basis in fact, but I do understand it.

the rules for locked in combat are applied at any time the conditions are met, as the rule is a simple If Then statement without caveat.

Play it how you want, that is not going to change what the rules say.

It's a function of how a permissive rule set must work - you are not allowed to use a rule without a reference to that rule.
It's exactly the same reason the Doom of Malantai's Spirit Leech ability does not work as written as there's no method of allocation referenced in the rule.
But you go ahead and ignore that fact as well - it's doing you some awesome favors.

You check for locked any time that a model in a unit tries to move because models may not move if their unit is locked.

 DeathReaper wrote:
You check for locked any time that a model in a unit tries to move because models may not move if their unit is locked.

Citation needed - that's not what the rules actually say.

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You check for locked any time that a model in a unit tries to move because models may not move if their unit is locked.

Citation needed - that's not what the rules actually say.

Actually it is what the rules say because of the line:

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

If you try to move a model and another model in the unit is in base contact with an enemy then the unit is locked and its models may only make pile in moves.

This clearly disproves your position.

Anything else I can answer for you?

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

 DeathReaper wrote:
You check for locked any time that a model in a unit tries to move because models may not move if their unit is locked.

Citation needed - that's not what the rules actually say.

Actually it is what the rules say because of the line:

"Units that have one or more models in base contact with enemies are locked in combat." (23)

If you try to move a model and another model in the unit is in base contact with an enemy then the unit is locked and its models may only make pile in moves.

This clearly disproves your position.

Anything else I can answer for you?

No, you claimed (and I quoted) that the rules say you check for locked any time a model in a unit tries to move.
Cite that requirement or admit you invented it. The rule you quoted says Units are locked. The restriction is on the unit, not the model.
The unit has already declared and is in the middle of performing an action. The unit may now have a restriction but there's nothing in the restriction preventing the current action from being performed.
You've. Invented. That. and keep insisting it's true, regardless of the fact that there's no actual rule saying so.

You're also applying a rule without referencing it - something that you should not be doing.

As for something else you can answer for me - please answer the questions I've asked repeatedly:

Why are you applying an effect without some rule telling you to?
How does the Doom of Malantai allocate wounds? (relevant question that you've ignored repeatedly)

rigeld2 wrote:
How does the Doom of Malantai allocate wounds? (relevant question that you've ignored repeatedly)

RAW? It is neither a shooting attack nor CC attack so you cannot use the rules for those. It is obvious where the attack comes from so you cannot use random allocation. Therefore strict RAW you cannot allocate wounds. Unless there is another method of wound allocation that I missed.

Though I'm not quite sure what this has to do with anything.

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
How does the Doom of Malantai allocate wounds? (relevant question that you've ignored repeatedly)

RAW? It is neither a shooting attack nor CC attack so you cannot use the rules for those. It is obvious where the attack comes from so you cannot use random allocation. Therefore strict RAW you cannot allocate wounds. Unless there is another method of wound allocation that I missed.

Though I'm not quite sure what this has to do with anything.

Right - and you can't use those allocation methods because there's nothing in the Spirit Leech rules that references them.

But the rule does reference it.

Any time you try to move a model you have to abide by all of the rules.

Making a charge move whilst one model from your unit is in base contact breaks the rule about only making pile in moves whist locked.

rigeld2 wrote:
How does the Doom of Malantai allocate wounds? (relevant question that you've ignored repeatedly)

The same way a vector strike allocates wounds...

 DeathReaper wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
How does the Doom of Malantai allocate wounds? (relevant question that you've ignored repeatedly)

The same way a vector strike allocates wounds...

Random Allocation?

 DeathReaper wrote:
But the rule does reference it.

No, they don't. The Charge Moves on page 21 don't even mention the word "locked".

Any time you try to move a model you have to abide by all of the rules.

Every rule that applies to models. A rule that applies to a unit does not always apply to a model.

Making a charge move whilst one model from your unit is in base contact breaks the rule about only making pile in moves whist locked.

No, it really doesn't. The model is breaking no rules - the unit is finishing a charge move that was legally initiated. Not making a charge move - that would be forbidden.

rigeld2 wrote:
How does the Doom of Malantai allocate wounds? (relevant question that you've ignored repeatedly)

The same way a vector strike allocates wounds...

Citation required.
And you ignored the other question I asked. Thanks bro.

rigeld2 wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
How does the Doom of Malantai allocate wounds? (relevant question that you've ignored repeatedly)

RAW? It is neither a shooting attack nor CC attack so you cannot use the rules for those. It is obvious where the attack comes from so you cannot use random allocation. Therefore strict RAW you cannot allocate wounds. Unless there is another method of wound allocation that I missed.

Though I'm not quite sure what this has to do with anything.

Right - and you can't use those allocation methods because there's nothing in the Spirit Leech rules that references them.

So you can never use random allocation, unless the rules for the attack state so?

Because the rules for RA suggest otherwise

Your argument relies upon your assertion that the STATE "are locked" isnt actually a state. The rules state otherwise.

COncession accepted, your refusal to show a rules basis for your assertion is noted.

The rules seem fairly cut and dry to me. The guy who wrote the blog seem to either be thinking WAY to hard about this in order to pull a fast one, or is a complete idiot.

 Draconicwraith wrote:
The rules seem fairly cut and dry to me. The guy who wrote the blog seem to either be thinking WAY to hard about this in order to pull a fast one, or is a complete idiot.

Yes, thank you.

And everyone is arguing with rigeld's very strict interpretation of the permissive ruleset while conveniently ignoring my argument (which cuts theirs to shreds):

Even if you are locked as soon as the first charging model is engaged, the rules specifically state that you have to finish that charge by moving every model, and the rules tell you exactly how to do so. There is no argument, that section trumps the definition of locked in this case. You have legally initiated a charge and the rules compel you to finish it.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
So you can never use random allocation, unless the rules for the attack state so?

Because the rules for RA suggest otherwise

Suggest and as written are two completely different things - I know you know that.

Your argument relies upon your assertion that the STATE "are locked" isnt actually a state. The rules state otherwise.

Citation needed - you've failed to provide one.

COncession accepted, your refusal to show a rules basis for your assertion is noted.

I've shown a rules basis. You're asking me to prove something that is a basic understanding of how rules work. Since that's not written in the BRB you're giving me an impossible task and then telling me I concede when I can't meet it. First of all, I'm not conceding. Second, I'm not sure how I should take that - so I'll propose this:

Prove using the BRB that WH40k is a permissive rule set. If you can do that - and only the BRB, not something like "the only way the rules can work" or "logic" or "you've admitted this in the past" - I'll concede and drop this subject.
Since I know for a fact that task is impossible, I'll accept the fact that you can't do it. Your failure is noted. Have a good day.

Don't you need a specific exception to override a rule? Similar to the assaulting from reserve in an assault vehicle. Does the charge rules give you a specific exception to override being locked? I'd have to say that yet again it's a set of rules that in concept work well but in the end they are still poorly written and therefor do not work as written when compared to understanding of intent.

rigeld2 wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Your argument relies upon your assertion that the STATE "are locked" isnt actually a state. The rules state otherwise.

Citation needed - you've failed to provide one.

We have, Page 23

A unit is locked when it meets the condition. the state of being locked relies on one thing, and once that condition is met they are in a state of Locked.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:
Yes, thank you.

And everyone is arguing with rigeld's very strict interpretation of the permissive ruleset while conveniently ignoring my argument (which cuts theirs to shreds):

Even if you are locked as soon as the first charging model is engaged, the rules specifically state that you have to finish that charge by moving every model, and the rules tell you exactly how to do so. There is no argument, that section trumps the definition of locked in this case. You have legally initiated a charge and the rules compel you to finish it.

Except for the Locked rules that state that you can only make pile in moves whilst locked.

Is the charge move a pile in move?

Gravmyr wrote:
Don't you need a specific exception to override a rule? Similar to the assaulting from reserve in an assault vehicle. Does the charge rules give you a specific exception to override being locked? I'd have to say that yet again it's a set of rules that in concept work well but in the end they are still poorly written and therefor do not work as written when compared to understanding of intent.

Yes you do.

You need specific permission to override the restriction (Like Sweeping Advance Vs. And They Shall Know No Fear, ATSKNF has specific permission to not be destroyed. Charging has no specific permission to override locked).

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Draconicwraith wrote:
The rules seem fairly cut and dry to me. The guy who wrote the blog seem to either be thinking WAY to hard about this in order to pull a fast one, or is a complete idiot.

Yes, thank you.

And everyone is arguing with rigeld's very strict interpretation of the permissive ruleset while conveniently ignoring my argument (which cuts theirs to shreds):

Even if you are locked as soon as the first charging model is engaged, the rules specifically state that you have to finish that charge by moving every model, and the rules tell you exactly how to do so. There is no argument, that section trumps the definition of locked in this case. You have legally initiated a charge and the rules compel you to finish it.

Show the SPECIFIC permission to override the restriction that you can only make Pile In moves.

You need something like "even though you can normally only make pile in moves", or else it isnt *specific*

Rigeld - page 23, now over to you to prove that this does not apply when the condition is met. You do not need to be told to use Rnadom Allocation in order to use it, as it covers any attack where the source isnt clear. DIsproving your "you need to be told to use a rule ALWAYS in order to be able to use the rule"

Locked IS a state, proven, and your refusal to provide a backup for your assertion, and your false dichotomy, is noted.

The word "state" does not exist on page 23.
And nos, you argued literally the opposite in a prior thread iirc.
So what wound allocation method does the Doom use for Spirit Leech?

And there isn't a false dichotomy. Also, part of citing is providing quotes. Page 23 isn't enough. Give actual rules support - the off quoted sentence doesn't say what you are telling me it says, so obviously I'm missing a sentence.

rigeld2 wrote:
The word "state" does not exist on page 23.
And nos, you argued literally the opposite in a prior thread iirc.
So what wound allocation method does the Doom use for Spirit Leech?

And there isn't a false dichotomy. Also, part of citing is providing quotes. Page 23 isn't enough. Give actual rules support - the off quoted sentence doesn't say what you are telling me it says, so obviously I'm missing a sentence.

Happy broke down what allocation method you use - none, as he doesnt fit any of the available types. However it was always clear what method of allocation a vector striking daemon prince used, as the source was unclear (especially if it flew off), until they reminded you that it used Random Allocation.

It doesnt have to say "state", the word, for it to describe a state. If you ARE locked, you are in the state known as "locked" once you have fulfilled those conditions. The written rule has been given enough times now to not bear repeating now - I will leave you to reread it in this thread - for you to know what it says. You just disagree that it is describing a state the model / unit is in. You have instead made up a requirement that doesnt exist in the rules, OR in the framework of the rules, to defend your position. A litterally unassailable position, because you have contrived it to be so.

Your refusal to provide a single rules quote to back up your assertion is noted, and your conceded argument accepted.

nosferatu1001 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
The word "state" does not exist on page 23.
And nos, you argued literally the opposite in a prior thread iirc.
So what wound allocation method does the Doom use for Spirit Leech?

And there isn't a false dichotomy. Also, part of citing is providing quotes. Page 23 isn't enough. Give actual rules support - the off quoted sentence doesn't say what you are telling me it says, so obviously I'm missing a sentence.

Happy broke down what allocation method you use - none, as he doesnt fit any of the available types. However it was always clear what method of allocation a vector striking daemon prince used, as the source was unclear (especially if it flew off), until they reminded you that it used Random Allocation.

No - there's no permission to use the shooting rules for Vector Strike. Nor for the DoM. You're allowed to use Random Allocation because - wait for it - they FAQ'd it.

It doesnt have to say "state", the word, for it to describe a state. If you ARE locked, you are in the state known as "locked" once you have fulfilled those conditions. The written rule has been given enough times now to not bear repeating now - I will leave you to reread it in this thread - for you to know what it says.

So no additional rules to back up your assertion - just the single sentence?
Right, since that sentence doesn't actually say what you assert you've provided nothing to back up your position. Concession accepted.

You just disagree that it is describing a state the model / unit is in. You have instead made up a requirement that doesnt exist in the rules, OR in the framework of the rules, to defend your position. A litterally unassailable position, because you have contrived it to be so.

Surely there'd be another example of a "state" of being?
No, I haven't contrived anything. For state based effects to exist they'd need to be explained in the rules - or for GW have some other longer method of explanation.
You've refused and been unable to cite anything like that.
I've made up nothing - I've cited (multiple times) that checks are made (not reminders - they don't use any word even remotely considered a reminder) for multiple actions. I would suggest that the text following your quoted sentence is a reminder - it's not in bold and it's not in the relevant sections. As a reminder it cannot actually cause a restriction - that's left to the actual rules.

Your refusal to provide a single rules quote to back up your assertion is noted, and your conceded argument accepted.

You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Apart from the lines in RA which tells you to use it when you need to allocate a wound that doesnt have a clear origin, you mean?

The rest of your rant is ignored, as it added nothing new.

Your argument boils down to: I assert X, and X is unassailable. Therefore I win.

Troll elsewhere

We're just going in circles now, once again.

let's hope, if only for the sake of those confused, that GW FAQ it or something in the not too distant future.