Switch Theme:

Share on facebook Share on Twitter Submit to Reddit  [RSS] 

Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/15 21:39:39


Post by: GoliothOnline


This is more of a dreamscape to which I would like to simply say "I wish, (WISH) the things I am about to post, were to happen"
But feel free to add to anything you would have liked to see changed, or simply added in an FAQ to the CSM Codex.

1) Obliterator Weapons on Daemonically Possessed Vehicles. = For a cost, Daemonically Possessed TANK**** models can upgrade their weapons to be Obliterator weapons (IE Pay for Daemonic Possession, then FURTHER upgrade to allow for Obliterator Weapons) This makes our rhinos not completely useless in comparison to any other Xport where our weapons upgrades could actually be used to an effect that would make them similar to the Loyalist Razorback... *COUGH* TL-LC is totally ok on your X port...
2) Daemon Princes having T6 base = Say hello to my Vindicator, and his 2 friends, Vind, and Cator. Yeah I took 3, and now you're screwed..
3) Cultists Icons = This one makes me so sad... I wish I could have given my Cultists FNP.... Or fear... Or Soul Blaze on all of their shots....
4) Warp Talons = Being allowed to Charge the Same turn they Deep Strike.... (FAQ: Warp Talons may assault in the turn they arrive via Deep Strike) Was that hard?.. Also... GIVE THEM THE OPTIONS TO TAKE ICONS........
5) Possessed = Give me back my bloody power weapons!!! Or wings... we Like wings.... well.... we HAVE wings... But like, they are broken.... Or something (Phil Kelly ~.~)
6) Chaos Terminators = I want a chaotic shield... Even if it's several guardsmen strapped together into a gelatinous blob of IG fleshy goodness, I want it...
7) Khorne Berzerkers = Give them the option to take Heavy ChainAxes (Swords-same profile) or Evicirators... Chain Axes for killing Ork Boys is not going to help them do anything they are supposed to do... any better.... Kill tau? SURE you can ignore that 4+ save they have... But they are Tau.... Cultsits can kill Tau in melee... Make Berzerkers BERZERK!! I want Kharn - Type fun with them.. My 1s should be killing my own guys... My attacks should be hitting on 2s.... I should be able to look at a tank and laugh even as it runs me over!!
8) Tanks = Now that I remember this, all chaos Tanks should have Destroy Blades Base at no cost... Why? BECAUSE ASTHETICS!!! They are spiky / pointy jerks, who LOVE being able to run you down with their spiky / pointy tanks... Why should I have to pay 15 points to say my Chaos Vehicles is indeed a Chaos Vehicles?.... Why does my tank need clarification in saying "Them there spikes actually hurt you if I Tank-Shock you..." Well NO **** ...... I would bloody hope so!! =/ Picking the bloody things up and transporting them is a danger itself...
9) Chaos Land Raiders = Aside from referring to #1 I would simply like to say that these Land Raiders are "OK".... I said something to an extent that wasn't bashing on something... O.o I Know, I'm just as surprised... But something along the lines of being able to customize their weapon load outs would make them more desirable instead of always taking them as simple Snap-Firing Anti-Air Berzerker Delivery Systems...
10) Mutilators = Burn them... Send them back to the warp where they came from. They are the lovechild between a Spawn and Obliterator.... These things function as good as they look.... Not pretty.... I have never successfully fielded them in any game, ever, even after laughing and giving them the Grimoire of True Names buff, they are still useless... Expensive, terrible altogether... Chaos simply didn't need them... I would have liked you to take their weapon load outs and given them to the Mauler Fiend....

Well, my supply of coffee to balance out my alcohol is running low...
Feel free to add in anything you would like to see, or have seen, in the codex


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 17:38:41


Post by: gossipmeng


I wouldn't mind my nurgle lord having FnP and berserkers should get chain axes for free.... people still wouldn't field the poor zerkers.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 17:40:49


Post by: ShatteredBlade


I would have liked better options for Legions. Or at least warbands of former legions.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 17:47:56


Post by: GorillaWarfare


Cult Terminators
Marked Vehicles


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 17:53:04


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Ability to buy mutations for:

Possessed
Chaos Spawn
HQ's/Aspiring Champions

Better reason for the Dark Apostle: Not a weaker chaplain.

Unique Daemon Weaponry for the Warpsmith.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 17:58:11


Post by: Extreaminatus


I would have liked god-specific daemon weapons back, as well as generic summoned daemons (they were soooooo useful when bikes with an icon could summon then right in your opponent's face).


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 18:16:48


Post by: Grimskul


I think one of the things they really dropped the ball on was making Chaos Marine vehicles really flavourful.

For one thing they should have been able to be marked with each Mark doing something different depending if they were a walker or a transport of some kind.

So for example a Rhino could be marked with these choices:

-Mark of Khorne: Makes it an assault vehicle for 15-20 points.

-Mark of Nurgle: Gives an additional hull point or It Will Not Die for 10 points.

-Mark of Slaanesh: Makes the Rhino fast for 10-15 points

-Mark of Tzzentch: Either makes it have a 6+ invuln. save for 5 points or about something like making your opponent re-roll one successful penetration roll per turn.

And of course a marked rhino can only carry those with the corresponding mark.

Also for Land Raiders I always though that they should have been able to modify it at some level considering the irreverence they have towards the Machine Spirit and that if it's corrupted that it should at least have an option to switch out their lascannon sponsons for varying weapons/transport space.

So for example the Chaos Land Raider would come at 190 points base with no side sponsons and with 16 man transport space. Then you have the option to add two twin-linked lascannon sponsons for 20 points and making it have 10 man transport space or add two hades-autocannon sponsons instead for 25 points and 10 man transport space. Then you can throw in marks again specific for the Land Raider to add flavour.

Another thing in particular are the cult troops of Thousand Sons and Berserkers. Berserkers should have stayed with 2 attacks base alongside with the current type of the Mark of Khorne and unit price. Then make the chain-axe stay the same cost and stats but also throw in rending. This way they can stay versatile and handle most armour types. Thousand Sons should be only roughly 20 points or if they stay at the same cost be relentless with the Sorcerer getting a significant price decrease and changing it so that psykers with a mark don't HAVE to have a mandatory psychic power from their corresponding mark.

Chosen should also be able to take "veteran traits" for a certain amount of points to reflect their status amongst the traitors rather than just an extra pip of Ld and attacks. They should be able to one of several USR's to show their specialization such as Tank Hunters for 2 points per model, Infiltrate for 1 point per model, or something like Scout/Move Through Cover for 1 point per model. Then GW should realize that pricing power weapons the same for main-line infantry units as they do for characters doesn't make sense and make power weapons only at most 8 points per model so they're at least still beneath the threshold of costing as much as terminator. 12 points for power fists, and 15 for a pair of lightning claws. The prices for the guns however stay the same simply because they have more use than the melee weapons.

The only last thing I think they could have really fixed was how Icons worked. They should have stayed with the ability to allow Deep Striking units to not scatter when within 6" of it. Also in terms of the Icon of Despair and Flame the Icon of Despair should have given the unit Shrouded instead and the Icon of Flame to allow all their shooting attacks to ignore cover. Both of which obviously gain appropriate boosts in price to reflect their enhanced buffs.

This lack of scattering would then allow Warp Talons some extra use later on in the game with their questionable Warpflame Strike. They honestly should have AP2 shred weaponry since they can cut through reality. That and have slightly cheaper costs for Marks and VotLW.





Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 18:18:22


Post by: Kain


Cult bikers, cult raptors, cult havocs, cult terminators, cult daemon engines, cult dreadnoughts, cult tanks.

Chaos undivided gets too many toys.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 18:19:51


Post by: Lobokai


Dreadclaws, -1 point cost to all basic models, and blessings instead of Icons (so it can't be picked off)


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 18:38:08


Post by: Blacksails


Internal balance.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 19:02:13


Post by: vizzle


Cultists don't get icons????? I would have thought that would be an absolute no brainer to go along with their horde ability

Do they have an option to take an aspiring champion?


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 19:27:31


Post by: Quintinus


A better author.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 19:38:16


Post by: GorillaWarfare


For Thousand Sons, they should have multiple ammo types like the Sternguard, should not have a sorcerous aspiring champion, and should perhaps have a 3+ invulnerable.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 20:03:58


Post by: Extreaminatus


 Kain wrote:
Cult bikers, cult raptors, cult havocs, cult terminators, cult daemon engines, cult dreadnoughts, cult tanks.

Chaos undivided gets too many toys.


Never gonna happen again. The best we can hope for is what we have already: marks and icons, which doing pretty much what the cult units get besides some USRs and/or weapons.

Also, what would cult havocs have?
Blastmasters for Slaanesh? Already have 'em on Noise Marines.
AP3 heavy bolter ammo for Tzeentch? Nobody takes heavy bolters anyway and the other weapons are AP3 already.
What do you want Nurgle to have? The best I can think of is poisoned shooting, maybe? Like, Fleshbane/Armorbane?
What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 20:06:21


Post by: Quintinus


 Extreaminatus wrote:

What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?


Well at least you're confirmed for a kiddie who's never heard of the Teeth of Khorne, aka World Eater Devastator teams.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 20:18:10


Post by: Extreaminatus


 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 Extreaminatus wrote:

What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?


Well at least you're confirmed for a kiddie who's never heard of the Teeth of Khorne, aka World Eater Devastator teams.


Sorry for stepping on your nerd-toes, big hoss, seems you've mistaken me for someone who cares.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 20:44:13


Post by: Vaktathi


 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 Extreaminatus wrote:

What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?


Well at least you're confirmed for a kiddie who's never heard of the Teeth of Khorne, aka World Eater Devastator teams.
To be fair, these haven't existed since the Rogue Trader era lists, now largely retro'd as Horus Heresy stuff, when marines could still take Shuriken weapons, were only T3 and only got a 5+ armor save against Lasguns

The fluff since then has been rather clear that the World Eaters have long since forsaken such ranged weaponry, though the WE's are not the only Khornate forces and are unique in being psycho-lobotomized.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 21:26:27


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Extreaminatus wrote:
 Kain wrote:
Cult bikers, cult raptors, cult havocs, cult terminators, cult daemon engines, cult dreadnoughts, cult tanks.

Chaos undivided gets too many toys.


Never gonna happen again. The best we can hope for is what we have already: marks and icons, which doing pretty much what the cult units get besides some USRs and/or weapons.

Also, what would cult havocs have?
Blastmasters for Slaanesh? Already have 'em on Noise Marines.
AP3 heavy bolter ammo for Tzeentch? Nobody takes heavy bolters anyway and the other weapons are AP3 already.
What do you want Nurgle to have? The best I can think of is poisoned shooting, maybe? Like, Fleshbane/Armorbane?
What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?


Yes you have them on noise marines, you'd have the standard 4 per havoc squad and all. What's wrong with that?

Plague havocs would be cool, with torrent plaguespewers.

There's heavy weapons of tzeentch that spew warp itself, but I wouldn't know how to make em on the TT, they are some fancy things inside the Tome of Fate (book)


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 21:34:13


Post by: Extreaminatus


 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
 Extreaminatus wrote:
 Kain wrote:
Cult bikers, cult raptors, cult havocs, cult terminators, cult daemon engines, cult dreadnoughts, cult tanks.

Chaos undivided gets too many toys.


Never gonna happen again. The best we can hope for is what we have already: marks and icons, which doing pretty much what the cult units get besides some USRs and/or weapons.

Also, what would cult havocs have?
Blastmasters for Slaanesh? Already have 'em on Noise Marines.
AP3 heavy bolter ammo for Tzeentch? Nobody takes heavy bolters anyway and the other weapons are AP3 already.
What do you want Nurgle to have? The best I can think of is poisoned shooting, maybe? Like, Fleshbane/Armorbane?
What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?


Yes you have them on noise marines, you'd have the standard 4 per havoc squad and all. What's wrong with that?

Plague havocs would be cool, with torrent plaguespewers.

There's heavy weapons of tzeentch that spew warp itself, but I wouldn't know how to make em on the TT, they are some fancy things inside the Tome of Fate (book)


I meant to add in that I like the idea of more cult units, but not every single unit having a cult variant. It's what I get for posting at work.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 21:44:41


Post by: Quintinus


 Extreaminatus wrote:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 Extreaminatus wrote:

What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?


Well at least you're confirmed for a kiddie who's never heard of the Teeth of Khorne, aka World Eater Devastator teams.


Sorry for stepping on your nerd-toes, big hoss, seems you've mistaken me for someone who cares.


Apparently you do since you replied, kiddy.

 Vaktathi wrote:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 Extreaminatus wrote:

What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?


Well at least you're confirmed for a kiddie who's never heard of the Teeth of Khorne, aka World Eater Devastator teams.
To be fair, these haven't existed since the Rogue Trader era lists, now largely retro'd as Horus Heresy stuff, when marines could still take Shuriken weapons, were only T3 and only got a 5+ armor save against Lasguns


That's fair, except you know what else we hadn't seen since Rogue Trader/2nd? Jokaero, Psychic mastery levels, and that's just a couple off the top of my head.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 21:46:56


Post by: happygolucky


 Lobukia wrote:
Dreadclaws


This.

DREADCLAW. FRAKKIN. DROP. PODS.

Seriously though, I've always wanted a Dreadclaw army, yet we didn't get Dreadclaws....

....but you're telling me that Tyranids have their own *not* Drop Pod called the Mysetic Spore?

Are you trying to be funny, punk?

That and the Servitors from FFG Black Crusade, I would have loved some of them alongside my Warpsmith


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 22:16:12


Post by: Tyrs13


Improve Thousand Sons ...

1) Take away mandatory Tzeench power ... they suck.
2) Make them Cheaper
3) Have the Sorcerer give them Relentless (allowing them to over watch)
4) Defiler point decrease
5) Deamon Prince point decrease
6) Ksons can go off a Chaos Lord with Mark not just Sorcerers


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 22:17:49


Post by: Extreaminatus


Vladsimpaler wrote:
People who haven't played games the exact amount of time I have aren't True Gamers and were never bullied by jocks and shunned by girls like I was so I better behave like the absolute worst human being towards them.




And seriously. Why the feth can't we have drop pods? GW gave us an assault heavy army with one assault vehicle. WHAAAAT?


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 22:22:17


Post by: Vaktathi


Vladsimpaler wrote:

That's fair, except you know what else we hadn't seen since Rogue Trader/2nd? Jokaero, Psychic mastery levels, and that's just a couple off the top of my head.
I thought they were in 2E also? Or am I just mis-remembering?


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 22:23:52


Post by: Extreaminatus


Weren't Jokaero in one (or both) of the Inquisition codecies (Witchhunters/Daemonhunters)?


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 22:27:05


Post by: Akiasura


 Extreaminatus wrote:
Weren't Jokaero in one (or both) of the Inquisition codecies (Witchhunters/Daemonhunters)?


They are in the new GK dex, which I think was his point.
GW seems to be reviving some of the cooler (subjective I know) for every army, except for chaos.

What was the name of the old chaos book? Liber chaotica or something? I have a copy in storage somewhere, incredible stuff


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 22:30:47


Post by: Extreaminatus


Yeah, they're in the new GK 'dex, but I remember them being in one of the old 'dexes as well.

I could be wrong, though. It's been a while.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 22:31:33


Post by: KillerSkivil


A proper nurgle icon that gives FnP, and on a unit that already has FnP gives a +1, also proper plague terminators, for a legion that made good use of terminators the lack of plague terminators is a blinding omission


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 22:48:19


Post by: Quintinus


 Extreaminatus wrote:

People who haven't played games the exact amount of time I have aren't True Gamers and were never bullied by jocks and shunned by girls like I was so I better behave like the absolute worst human being towards them.


Wow, I'm sorry to hear that. :(
Hope you feel better bud.

 Vaktathi wrote:
Vladsimpaler wrote:

That's fair, except you know what else we hadn't seen since Rogue Trader/2nd? Jokaero, Psychic mastery levels, and that's just a couple off the top of my head.
I thought they were in 2E also? Or am I just mis-remembering?


Oh I was saying that there's been a lot of stuff we haven't seen since Rogue Trader or 2nd. Jokaero were only in Rogue Trader. The point is that GeeDubs is in nostalgia mode yet for some reason it doesn't effect Chaos. Sometimes I wish Mat Ward wrote our book so then at least it would be fun to play. You could still ignore the broken stuff.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/16 22:49:16


Post by: Extreaminatus


Stay needlessly antagonistic and we have a deal.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/17 00:44:09


Post by: Disciple of Fate


Make MoT a ++5 save again, with +1 on chars/units with an invul save already. Now there is no reason to buy one expensive mark for such a little boost. Why change it from the previous ++5, it wasnt too good back then, now it just plain sucks on regulars.

And make the Land Raider be able to transport 12 models, the loyalist can get 12, why not Chaos? Did they really take that many steroids, or do renegades just downsize all their Land Raiders to fit in with the crowd. It makes no sense at all.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/17 02:23:01


Post by: GoliothOnline


Honestly, after all the crap Chaos has that is nothing but terrible versions of their loyalist counterparts, they should at least have razorbacks... and competitive land raider variants...

Why does the loyalist LR have power of the machine spirit, yet my daemonically possessed LR straight out of the warp can't even get an invuln save, nor act as if it were possessed?... the best it can do is destroy one of my own models v_v"

Simply amazing ~.~


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/17 07:37:40


Post by: Kain


 Extreaminatus wrote:
 Kain wrote:
Cult bikers, cult raptors, cult havocs, cult terminators, cult daemon engines, cult dreadnoughts, cult tanks.

Chaos undivided gets too many toys.


Never gonna happen again. The best we can hope for is what we have already: marks and icons, which doing pretty much what the cult units get besides some USRs and/or weapons.

Also, what would cult havocs have?
Blastmasters for Slaanesh? Already have 'em on Noise Marines.
AP3 heavy bolter ammo for Tzeentch? Nobody takes heavy bolters anyway and the other weapons are AP3 already.
What do you want Nurgle to have? The best I can think of is poisoned shooting, maybe? Like, Fleshbane/Armorbane?
What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?

Ap2 Heavy bolters and Autocannons, AP4 Frag missiles, AP2 flak missiles, and AP1 krak missiles for rubric havocs.

Yes, but Havocs can spam them harder.

Poisoned weapons, FNP, and such.

Khorne can just have all autocanons all the time.

In any case me and my group already broke Chaos Space Marines into 10 minidexes, one for each legion and one for chaos renegades. So Slow and purposeful 3++ Tzeentch Termies with AP2 Reaper autocannons are a go. (If you can stomach paying 60 ppm).


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/17 08:11:44


Post by: MWHistorian


Here's the response from GW.
What? You chaos players want options? Nay. You'll get the generic, overpriced crap we serve you and you'll like it!
You want landraiders with options that make it more versatile and fit the fluff better? Not a chance.
You want 1Ksons that you don't have to be intellectually challenged to take? Forget it.
Khorne, the master of CC? Not on your life. They'll be one of your worst CC options like they should be.
Tzeentch, the master of magic? I laugh at you. We'll have the ones that directly channel the source of all psychic powers be the worst at it.
And don't start on drop pods.

Games Workshop
Because we hate chaos and those that play it.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/17 14:35:11


Post by: Abadabadoobaddon


Well, it's too late for CSM in 6th as there's about a 0% chance of GW fixing anything until they get redone, so here's my wishlist for 7th. I've assumed that 7th will largely be a phoned-in copy-paste job of the 6th ed codex since that seems to be GW's MO when it comes to CSM. I've also left out anything having to do with pts costs - I'm assuming that everything will be priced wrong since that seems to be GW's MO when it comes to everything. But here's what I'd like to see in the 7th ed codex to better reflect the fluff on the tabletop:

1. Dreadclaws.

2. Cult terminators.

3. Tzeentch should not have the worst psychic lore in the game. I know this would be breaking from a long proud tradition dating back to 3rd edition, but come on - this is getting ridiculous. TS aspiring sorcerers should be mastery level 2 - these guys are supposed to be some of the best psykers in the setting. At the very least Tzeentch sorcerers should have access to Divination.

4. VotLW should come with Legion rules. If GW wants us to field mixed warbands, fine. But at least let the legions be represented at the unit level. WB could get zealot - maybe make it synergize in some way the Dark Apostle. NL should get night vision and not have to accept challenges - mandatory challenges just don't fit with the character of the legion.

5. Daemon princes should not be required to take Daemon of _______. Perturabo, Lorgar and Acerbus are all "unmarked" daemon princes.

6. Icons should go back to working as teleport homers. And they should be able to give those benefits to daemon allies of the appropriate patron deity. Dark Apostles should give benefits to daemon reserve rolls. Which brings me to...

6. CSM should synergize with CD. It's absolutely ridiculous that CSM and CD are each others' only Battle Brothers yet their codices seem to go out of their way to eliminate any possible synergy between the two. I mean instead of making them Battle Brothers and then putting in a million special rules to make them function like Allies of Convenience, wouldn't it have just been easier to, oh I don't know, just make them Allies of Convenience?

7. Cultists should not be eliminated from the codex. The fact that they have no multi-part plastic kit and the codex only gives them the options that they come with out of the DV box makes me very wary. Mark my words, if they don't get a plastic kit next edition they will be gone from the codex. My biggest wish is to not see cultists disappear from the game. Again.






Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/17 15:10:06


Post by: Exergy


 Blacksails wrote:
Internal balance.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
 ShatteredBlade wrote:
I would have liked better options for Legions. Or at least warbands of former legions.


some sort of legion traits needs to be added. C:SM get their chapter tactics and ATSKNF for 1 point? There should be some reason to take CSM and if they arent going to have ATSKNF they should have pretty good legion traits.

9 traits for the 9 legions and 1 for new renegades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:


5. Daemon princes should not be required to take Daemon of _______. Perturabo, Lorgar and Acerbus are all "unmarked" daemon princes.



Or allow them to take Daemon of Undivided, which would have some other bonus to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would have liked to have seen the sorcerers of each go have diffenent psykic disaplines they can take.

Unmarked
Bio Pyro Telep Telek

Tzeench
Divi Pyro Telek

Slannesh
Telep Telek Bio

Nurgle
Pyro Telep Bio


with more than 3 powers for the god specific ones as well.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/17 16:30:18


Post by: happygolucky


I would also like to Include one rule back from 4th ed.

GIVE OUR DAEMON PRINCES ETERNAL WARRIOR BACK!!!

Im sorry but an immortal champion of the Warp can now be instant killed, because you know an immortal Champion of the Warp can be instant killed, unlike a Hive Tyrant (or many Tyranid MC) with Iron Arm can be eternal warrior, and with their LD they aren't gonna fail a lot of the time.

GW fix this!


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/18 10:31:50


Post by: Grumzimus


DROP PODS!!!!!

Also letting Thousand Sons deep strike would be cool, since they do that in the books. And since Ahriman has master of deception.... Surely that would fit the fluff and make use of their over-costed price.

I actually like the book these days, but since I've been going up against Tau a lot, I just can't get more than 2 figures into close combat...

And burn Mutilators. they're complete pish. Even if you made them units of 5 they'd still be worse than a unit of termies. Heck, make them a champion or an upgrade of a terminator and they'd actually see some use.

We're one of the best CC armies, but we just can't get to the other side of the board.

And that challenge rule just stinks.

Oh and yes, default Zerkers with chainaxes, because there's absolutely no benefit in taking them these days. Might as well just run vanilla marines with the MoK, at least you get to shoot once en route to mid table.death.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/18 13:11:45


Post by: ZebioLizard2


 Grumzimus wrote:
DROP PODS!!!!!

Also letting Thousand Sons deep strike would be cool, since they do that in the books. And since Ahriman has master of deception.... Surely that would fit the fluff and make use of their over-costed price.

I actually like the book these days, but since I've been going up against Tau a lot, I just can't get more than 2 figures into close combat...

And burn Mutilators. they're complete pish. Even if you made them units of 5 they'd still be worse than a unit of termies. Heck, make them a champion or an upgrade of a terminator and they'd actually see some use.

We're one of the best CC armies, but we just can't get to the other side of the board.

And that challenge rule just stinks.

Oh and yes, default Zerkers with chainaxes, because there's absolutely no benefit in taking them these days. Might as well just run vanilla marines with the MoK, at least you get to shoot once en route to mid table.death.


That's a good idea actually, it would be wonderful to have mutated aspiring champions within leading squads.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/18 13:31:20


Post by: A-P


In no particular order:

- Maneuver options. 1) Dreadclaws, 2) access to Infiltrate and Scout USRs with something other than one random Warlord Trait
and two Special Characters, 3) Icons that act as Deep Strike beacons ( you know, like they used to ).

- Legion traits ala Chapter tactics. Something that allows representing warbands of the old Legions ( Night Lords etc. ).

-Cult Terminators. Connected to the above.

- More artefacts and wargear. The current list boils down to "take the Axe or take the Burning Brand".


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/18 14:45:08


Post by: some bloke


drop-pods, transport fliers, mark-based upgrades for vehicles and a clear-cut explanation of where a heldrake can and cannot fire (simply stating it's a 'turret' doesn't clarify anything, the heavy bolter with a 90 degree fire arc on the front of a landraider is a turret, as is a 360 degree leman russ).


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/19 14:41:46


Post by: Isengard


All good points guys but surely GW issued a generic chaos book and will add little tidbits for each major legion with codex supplements. I'll lay odds there'll eventually be one for each of the big monocult legions: Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Thousand Sons.

Having said that though, given the almost complete lack of any new rules in the Iyanden codex I am not expecting great things...


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/19 15:43:02


Post by: ZebioLizard2


Isengard wrote:
All good points guys but surely GW issued a generic chaos book and will add little tidbits for each major legion with codex supplements. I'll lay odds there'll eventually be one for each of the big monocult legions: Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Thousand Sons.

Having said that though, given the almost complete lack of any new rules in the Iyanden codex I am not expecting great things...

The problem is that the base book is flawed and really, really needs some things balanced out better.

For example unless the new thousand sons book makes Rubric Marines far, far better for their cost (maybe 2 wounds or immunity to S4 and below shooting), they'll still be horrible in just a different supplement.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/25 21:15:25


Post by: happygolucky


So after hearing about BL Supplement, tbh I really don't think if we do get supplements in the future they are going to be just as much of a failure as BL and Iyanden codex supplements..

£35 (or something ridiculous along those prices) for an extra FOC slot and hand of darkness? sooo... im paying for nothing that changes our playstyle unlike the Farsight supplement (which is what all supplements should be aiming for imho) apart from two things which im sure is less than 2 pages? nah I think I will pass, thanks a bunch GW..


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/26 02:53:47


Post by: Musashi363


Land Raiders with hades autocannons/bale flamers/ectoplasma. Forgefiends with bale flamers (triple bale flamers gives me the chills) or blast masters.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/26 04:23:14


Post by: Zappit


More artifacts that can be used by ICs with other marks. No Slaaneshi artifact? No Nurgle artifact. Khorne gets a great one, and Tzeentch gets that thing no one ever uses. They can do better there.

I find it hard to believe that Chaos Marines don't have access to a single suit of artificer armor. Let's fix that.

Legion Tactics would be fantastic. At the very least, let the non-god legions get a FOC adjustment like the old days.

Chaos needs a new assault transport. Why not create a new daemon engine that can charge in and discharge its cargo through a massive, gaping maw? Give it a couple CC options, too. It would be fantastic if it could charge in, too.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/26 07:48:23


Post by: Jehan-reznor


 Blacksails wrote:
InFernal balance.


Corrected

I wished instead of the khorne mower, they could have made a demon primach kit


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/26 19:48:48


Post by: gaovinni


Well mainly just because I like cultists way too much I'd like to see a couple more options for them. Like being able to equip any cultist with a shotgun and not just the champion. Icons would be nice. I'd also like it if the champions had a few more options for them. We are planning on making rules and converting models for a cultist heavy weapons squad as a heavy support choice. Yes it will be a terrible and useless thing quite likely but we are doing it for fun.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/26 20:11:36


Post by: Veteran Sergeant


 MWHistorian wrote:
Here's the response from GW.
What? You chaos players want options? Nay. You'll get the generic, overpriced crap we serve you and you'll like it!

This is so ludicrous it's fairly amusing.

The Chaos Marine Squad has 26 different options to it.

Even if you factor in all 8 "Chapter Traits" as options, the Tactical Squad only has 19 and they all end up with the same basic cookie cutter format. 1 sergeant, 1 special weapon, and 1 heavy weapon, and maxes out at half the size the Chaos Marine Squad. It has no options for BP/CCW. It has no option for double special weapons. It is literally a point sink.

The Chaos book is so overloaded with options, it's laughable that Chaos players whine about not having enough options.


Now, if the Chaos Marines themselves end up not being the most competitive build that comes out of the Chaos books, that's a different story. But there's a boatload of options in the Chaos book. It's essentially four Chaos Marine codex books rolled up into one. It's not like Codex: Blood Angels offers up some huge variety for Space Marines, lol. It only gets its own book because Space Marines sell so many models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A-P wrote:
- Legion traits ala Chapter tactics. Something that allows representing warbands of the old Legions ( Night Lords etc. ).

The problem is, the Legions no longer exist.

This is a common error that many Chaos players make. It's a disconnect between what the Chaos players think the Chaos faction is, and what the Chaos faction actually is. Chaos Marines aren't supposed to be directly analogous to loyal Space Marines. Loyal Marines have the manufacturing capability of a vast interstellar empire behind them. The Imperium might be failing, but it's failing very slowly, and it's vast. Chaos Marines, on the other hand, get the boons and whims of supernatural forces. They are two entirely different armies, with just a superficial aesthetic in common, and an intertwined back story. But the modern Chaos Marine is one of two things. A Warp twisted lunatic who serves at the behest of some insidious greater power. Or, a bitter, dogged renegade waging a guerrilla war against the far larger and superior might of the Imperium. What is left of the Chaos Legions are splintered into countless warbands, often intermixed with followers of different gods, and Marines from different parent Legions. Their numbers get bolstered with recruits created with stolen or corrupted geneseed, and formed with debased processes and Chaos taint, and the bulk of the original Heresy era Marines have been killed or transcended to Demon status in the last 10,000 years.

The Space Marines have an giant, exhaustive book which is an authoritative tome on all things Space Marine, with the perfected processes for recruiting, indoctrinating, and training Marines, as well as countless and exhaustive studies on how to fight battles, written by the greatest military mind ever to live. They have Chapter Tactics because they have very long standing and entrenched ways of fighting and an exhaustive training regimen which ensures those skills are passed on to all Marines.

Chaos Marines have... whatever training it is that they decide to do. Remember, the Legions came from an inferior stock of Space Marines compared to the modern ones (small gene defficiencies excluded). The Marines of the Great Crusade were mass produced, with varying degrees of quality. Many of them weren't even actual Space Marines, but instead enhanced regular humans. When they lost at Terra, they were disorganized, scattered to the winds and hunted down. Before long, at least two of the Legions completely ceased to exist as an organized entity. And it isn't like it's gotten any better for them.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/27 00:51:14


Post by: Musashi363


As a chaos player, how can you possibly think we have tons of options? You have a hard time deciding how to outfit your land raider or demon engines? You mull over wich transport to use to get your guys into close combat? You debate wich mark to give your oblits, termies or lord? Or lets get crazy, which cult troop are you going to use? Please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also where do you get the idea that heresy era marines were inferior? Im calling BS on that. A couple individuals were inhanced humans, such as Kor Phearon and Luther, but those were the exceptions. I think you might be confusing thunder warriors and astartes. Last time i checked, my Word Bearers are still a legion with their own forge world.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/27 01:33:04


Post by: ZebioLizard2


The problem is, the Legions no longer exist.

This is a common error that many Chaos players make. It's a disconnect between what the Chaos players think the Chaos faction is, and what the Chaos faction actually is. Chaos Marines aren't supposed to be directly analogous to loyal Space Marines. Loyal Marines have the manufacturing capability of a vast interstellar empire behind them. The Imperium might be failing, but it's failing very slowly, and it's vast. Chaos Marines, on the other hand, get the boons and whims of supernatural forces. They are two entirely different armies, with just a superficial aesthetic in common, and an intertwined back story. But the modern Chaos Marine is one of two things. A Warp twisted lunatic who serves at the behest of some insidious greater power. Or, a bitter, dogged renegade waging a guerrilla war against the far larger and superior might of the Imperium. What is left of the Chaos Legions are splintered into countless warbands, often intermixed with followers of different gods, and Marines from different parent Legions. Their numbers get bolstered with recruits created with stolen or corrupted geneseed, and formed with debased processes and Chaos taint, and the bulk of the original Heresy era Marines have been killed or transcended to Demon status in the last 10,000 years.


Psst, don't tell the maker of the Black Legion Book, who explicitly refers to Angron and his World Eater Legion gearing up for the 13th crusade, not to mention other factions being referred to as legions still.

Oh and don't forget that Chaos has the Warp itself that provides weaponry for them, as well as the Dark Mechancius that provices it's legions with Titans and Weaponry. Did you think they just scrounge up whatever they can find? No! They actually have a manufacturing base where many of the upper levels have powerful worlds equivalent to forgeworld churning out daemonic weaponry and almighty machines of war for the Chaos, many of which are owned by the powerful chaos lords to churn out constantly, not to mention the daemonic planets owned by those of the Legions Daemonic Primarch.

Also, that legion's don't exist is a retcon that not even the story pays attention to at times, what with the Word bearers still running powerful hosts, the Iron Warriors still running in chapters equivalent to space marines, and many others still run in warbands hundreds to thousands strong. Easy enough to represent on the tabletop so to the point that not even having a legion is moot, they could just be called "Warbands" and it'd still be the same. Just give us the options!


Chaos Marines have... whatever training it is that they decide to do. Remember, the Legions came from an inferior stock of Space Marines compared to the modern ones (small gene defficiencies excluded). The Marines of the Great Crusade were mass produced, with varying degrees of quality


According to the process, it's actually only gotten worse for the space marines over time, generally the first few batches were imperfect but overall the Emporer got it right overtime considering that the same stock is what produced most of the space marines in general, and according to the rest it's a process that's only gotten worse overtime to the point where they need individual gene-seed to continue the process, whereas the emporer didn't need to harvest it from the space marines in the field. Now they have to in order to continue the process and it's only gotten worse.

Also CSM have the training they need to fight within the warp itself, to survive being stabbed in the back is something that every CSM will need to learn. They go through incursions by daemons, being warp-tainted, and generally become embolded by either the dark gods or their own prowess to survive either being killed by stray daemons, the warp itself, or each other. Or they are the masters of the legions before coming in with many years of experience over the space marine chapters, having survived the Horus Heresy itself. While they would not have the coordination of the Standard Space marines in most cases, they would have the individual prowess to beat their other brothers senseless.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/27 03:40:04


Post by: Abadabadoobaddon


 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Chaos Space Marines are like Space Marines except worse in every way. This is fluffy. Just be happy your power armor still gives you a 3+.

Cool story bro.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/27 18:12:13


Post by: happygolucky


I think SM players forget that SM chapters are not legions...

For example the Chapter tactics or whatever they are called, these derived from the original legions then after the HH, they disbanded into chapters, same goes for CSM, CSM legions followed what their Primarch told them and their own speciality's, then they HH happened and quite a few Legions disbanded into warbands of the legion they disbanded, and the same goes for Chapters, they still follow their own Primarch's teachings but they divided into smaller groups called Chapters. Conclusion: Chapters are the equivalent to Warbands and vice versa (and whilst they may have different slight outlooks they both are still the equivalents of each other) so why do the SM chapters get all these tactics that gives each chapter (formally a legion) still get these awesome fluff rules that gives each chapter a distinct look, yet CSM do not?


I've seen this way too many times on Dakka and im just going to be blunt now, because tbh Im getting sick of SM players scream at CSM players over points that they don't know what they are talking about (as they don't understand what it is like being a CSM player). SM players just want to hog the limelight and shout down any CSM players who want viable diversity in their army, why? two reasons: A) They don't want their precious limelight stolen, or B) they took a Helldrake to the face, screamed OP and then shout down any CSM players because they lost to a couple of Helldrakes.

Take the above paragraph with a large quantity of salt as this is just my opinion.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/27 20:16:40


Post by: King Pariah


Thanks to 1d4chan, havoc bikers.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 12:32:13


Post by: gaovinni


 happygolucky wrote:
I think SM players forget that SM chapters are not legions...

For example the Chapter tactics or whatever they are called, these derived from the original legions then after the HH, they disbanded into chapters, same goes for CSM, CSM legions followed what their Primarch told them and their own speciality's, then they HH happened and quite a few Legions disbanded into warbands of the legion they disbanded, and the same goes for Chapters, they still follow their own Primarch's teachings but they divided into smaller groups called Chapters. Conclusion: Chapters are the equivalent to Warbands and vice versa (and whilst they may have different slight outlooks they both are still the equivalents of each other) so why do the SM chapters get all these tactics that gives each chapter (formally a legion) still get these awesome fluff rules that gives each chapter a distinct look, yet CSM do not?


I've seen this way too many times on Dakka and im just going to be blunt now, because tbh Im getting sick of SM players scream at CSM players over points that they don't know what they are talking about (as they don't understand what it is like being a CSM player). SM players just want to hog the limelight and shout down any CSM players who want viable diversity in their army, why? two reasons: A) They don't want their precious limelight stolen, or B) they took a Helldrake to the face, screamed OP and then shout down any CSM players because they lost to a couple of Helldrakes.

Take the above paragraph with a large quantity of salt as this is just my opinion.


To this I just have to say that I've never encountered this behaviour anywhere else than on the internet.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 12:36:04


Post by: Shadowbrand


I'd kinda like to see a variant for the Land Raider.

Lol a Black Crusader. So I can fill it up with eight terminators and combi melta the living feth out of stuff.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 12:49:59


Post by: Barfolomew


The biggest problem with Chaos is that GW's perception is that Chaos should be chaotic with lots of options for units which could be meshed together. This problem is that the the fluff emphasizes Chaos being made up of different LEGIONS and each LEGION has different composition and combat methodology. Most of the LEGIONS are a not chaotic mess like the GW's perception.

From a fundamental design concept, GW needs to drop any rule which says "roll a D6 prior to the game/combat/etc. to see what you get. The majority of your players HATE RANDOMNESS.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 13:24:33


Post by: sing your life


Bale flamers being AP4.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 13:33:01


Post by: PredaKhaine


I want Noise Marine Dreads with blastmasters, Land Raiders with blastmasters, The 'possesed' vehicles not to kill my own embarked men, power of the machine deamon spirit, the possesed by a demon vehicle to have the demon special rule, Night Lords rules, Word bearers rules and Iron Warrior rules, non marked demon weapons,a couple more demon weapons, unmarked demon princes, A Night Lords special character (and iron warrios and word bearers as well - only I don't play those, so I'm not as fussed )

Oh, and AP2 Bale Flamers


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 13:35:38


Post by: Black Corsair


DREADCLAWS!!!!!! WE NEEED DREADCLAWS!!!...

now serious, its a real pity to not have them... i'm rather ok with the rest, well... not the drake, the drake sucks, it should have been some sort of corrupted fighter-bomber..


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 18:03:47


Post by: Veteran Sergeant


ZebioLizard2 wrote:Also, that legion's don't exist is a retcon that not even the story pays attention to at times,
I hate all those retcons that were written in the 2nd Edition Chaos Codex, lol. What's a retcon is if certain fluff sources suggest that the Legions still exist. Not that they dissolved in the first place.

However, you have to look no further than the 6th Ed Chaos Codex to see that they haven't retconned that at all. I haven't looked at the BL supplement yet, to be fair. So it's impossible some poor author got confused when writing it and made some bad fluff. It isn't like that's out of the ordinary.

according to the rest it's a process that's only gotten worse overtime to the point where they need individual gene-seed to continue the process, whereas the emporer didn't need to harvest it from the space marines in the field. Now they have to in order to continue the process and it's only gotten worse.
You're confused. The Space Marines have to harvest gene seed from their existing Marines because that is a control measure the Imperium uses to limit the ability of Space Marine Chapters to expand their numbers beyond the prescribed amounts. There's nothing inherently inferior about the geneseed harvesting process, and geneseed recovery was still a practice in 30K. It was just that there was less emphasis on it because access to geneseed for Marine-making was unrestricted.

As a chaos player, how can you possibly think we have tons of options? You have a hard time deciding how to outfit your land raider or demon engines? You mull over wich transport to use to get your guys into close combat? You debate wich mark to give your oblits, termies or lord? Or lets get crazy, which cult troop are you going to use? Please.
You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.

Also where do you get the idea that heresy era marines were inferior? Im calling BS on that.

It was the whole reason for the Codex Astartes in the first place (which Guilliman began before the Heresy). The Space Marine Legions had no standards for recruiting and training. Most of the Legions were just churning out Space Marines as fast as possible to replace the casualties they were sustaining in the Crusades. As such the quality was variable, and many Legions were using inferior candidates and trying to accelerate or alter the process.

People get confused with the decline of the universe over the ten thousand years it took to get to 40K. But the standards for making Space Marines were codified in 30K, back when everything was still fairly good, and technology hadn't been lost. While some strains of geneseed have deteriorated, the model for making Marines in the Codex Astartes is still the same perfected process created by Guilliman. You know, that guy who had the Legion which was larger than the rest of them, and suffered the fewest casualties during the Crusade, and then proceeded to reconquer the Imperium in seven years after the Traitor Legions tried to topple it.

This stuff is in there. You just have to look for it. And don't get all puffed up about me being a "Space Marine player" who "doesn't understand". I was probably playing Chaos before you saw your first model. Their modern plastics just suck, so I chose to model up regular Space Marines instead for my latest project.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 18:05:22


Post by: labmouse42


Wave serpents....


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 18:29:21


Post by: ZebioLizard2


You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.


There is a difference between options, and "Effective" options. An obliterator can use a Mark of Slaanesh, not a good idea to use it anyways. A poor option might be an option, but nobody is going to count it as one.


This stuff is in there. You just have to look for it. And don't get all puffed up about me being a "Space Marine player" who "doesn't understand". I was probably playing Chaos before you saw your first model. Their modern plastics just suck, so I chose to model up regular Space Marines instead for my latest project.


"I was a Chaos Space Marine before it was cool."



Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 18:50:51


Post by: Quintinus


 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.


Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 18:57:08


Post by: somerandomidiot


Wow, Veteran Sergeant really isn't a fan of the chaos legions... The real issue I have with that entire viewpoint is that the armies we play are so small in comparison to the legions that it's entirely plausible that a group of <100 chaos marines from a legion could stay together. Nobody ever claimed the entire legion was still together, but to imagine that they would dissolve the bonds of brotherhood entirely is a different matter. Or is the squad the only structure that has survived? I mean, why stop at the company level, why don't chaos marines of different marks join in squads together? It's not like there's a rule that specifically prevents that, right?

I'm curious, how much established fluff shows chaos marines working in allied groups of multiple different legions/warbands, and how much of it shows one legion/warband working alone? I can't think of any Black Library books about allied warbands, but I'm pretty sure there are entire series on the Night Lords, Word Bearers, etc. To the contrary, there are plenty of notes in the Space Marine codex that show different chapters working together, but I don't see anyone advocating for mixed-chapter armies. It's a double standard, and a pretty myopic one at that.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 19:08:20


Post by: sing your life


PredaKhaine wrote:


Oh, and AP2 Bale Flamers




Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 19:35:10


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.


Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol


If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 19:47:38


Post by: Tycho


I would like to second, third, fourth and fifth anyone who said drop pods. Seriously. If you're not going to let us teleport in properly (i.e. with beacons, etc) then at least give us another decent deepstrike option. Especially since our transports kind of suck as well. Plus, I just feel like drop pods are more fun. I realize it's just my personal taste but I really LOVE drop pod assaults (even when they go horrendously wrong) and would enjoy being able to do it with my Chaos Marines.

If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...



lol Wow! It took three full pages for someone to make this about Templars ...



Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 20:01:04


Post by: Skriker


 Extreaminatus wrote:

What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?


And this is why many khorne themed armies fail: Because along the way some people seemed to think that because berserkers are melee troops that ALL forces in a khorne army must be melee focused. Khorne has NEVER had a prohibition against using anything but magic or psychic power. Khonre is just as happy to collect skulls from troops killed with heavy bolters and missile launchers as those killed by chain axe wielding maniacs. Driving around the battlefield in a predator and crushing people under the tracks? Khorne loves that too. My own massive khornate horde has *1* unit of berserkers and a couple dozen units of other types in it. Playing an army that is made up of only berserkers might be amusing as a one off, but is pretty tactically limited and hamstrung for regular usage.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Disciple of Fate wrote:
And make the Land Raider be able to transport 12 models, the loyalist can get 12, why not Chaos? Did they really take that many steroids, or do renegades just downsize all their Land Raiders to fit in with the crowd. It makes no sense at all.


It is all those spiky bits on the armor keeping chaos marines from packing into the land raider as tightly as loyalist marines. A duh...

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Barfolomew wrote:
The biggest problem with Chaos is that GW's perception is that Chaos should be chaotic with lots of options for units which could be meshed together. This problem is that the the fluff emphasizes Chaos being made up of different LEGIONS and each LEGION has different composition and combat methodology. Most of the LEGIONS are a not chaotic mess like the GW's perception.

From a fundamental design concept, GW needs to drop any rule which says "roll a D6 prior to the game/combat/etc. to see what you get. The majority of your players HATE RANDOMNESS.


The fluff is kind of at odds with itself. It is well documented (new Black Legion supplement not withstanding) that the World Eater's collapsed as a legion shortly after the failure at Terra and Horus's death. Without the war to focus on they because focusing on themselves and split into numerous splinter factions. The next most well documented is the thousand sons. Rhubric marines are supposed to be incredibly rare in general and having 2 units of them in your tzeentch aligned force is supposed to be a big deal. Not much has been said about the emperor's children or the deathguard other than a small blurb about original plaguemarines are becoming more rare. The whole concept of them *still* harping on the legions is dumb. The chaos legions haven't really existed as such for generations. It should all be about the warbands and allegiance to the various powers of chaos. Sure berserkers, plague marines and noise marines still exist and more can be created all the time. Rhubric marines are a tough sell though because once they are destroyed it isn't as if there is another source to use to create more of them.

Also what is the point of including "renegades" to the codex if they end up just as limited in equipment and options as those forces that were based on parts from the original legions? Why wouldn't my newly fallen force of marines still have its crusaders and redeemers at their disposal? It just makes zero sense. The book wants to be two distinct entities in the game, but I don't think it ultimately fulfills either of them. :\

ATSKNF is an annoyance to me. It makes no sense that marines can be so completely immune to fear due to their conditioning, but lose that ability even after living in the terrifying environs of the Eye of Terror. If one lives side by side with daemons daily and the insanity that is chaos I can't understand why ATSKNF would just vanish as opposed to getting stronger. My solution, though, is not to give it to chaos marines, but to just remove it completely. It is one of the most broken rules in the game and needs to go.

While I loved the original randomness of chaos back in the day, after thinking about it more I think adding it back in to such an extreme to the current codex was a bad maneuver.

Srkiker


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 21:50:49


Post by: somerandomidiot


 Skriker wrote:


The fluff is kind of at odds with itself. It is well documented (new Black Legion supplement not withstanding) that the World Eater's collapsed as a legion shortly after the failure at Terra and Horus's death. Without the war to focus on they because focusing on themselves and split into numerous splinter factions. The next most well documented is the thousand sons. Rhubric marines are supposed to be incredibly rare in general and having 2 units of them in your tzeentch aligned force is supposed to be a big deal. Not much has been said about the emperor's children or the deathguard other than a small blurb about original plaguemarines are becoming more rare. The whole concept of them *still* harping on the legions is dumb. The chaos legions haven't really existed as such for generations. It should all be about the warbands and allegiance to the various powers of chaos. Sure berserkers, plague marines and noise marines still exist and more can be created all the time. Rhubric marines are a tough sell though because once they are destroyed it isn't as if there is another source to use to create more of them.

Srkiker


As a Thousand Sons player, I've read pretty much everything on them and never heard anything about rubric marines being specifically rare. Obviously, chaos marines are rare in general, and things like obliterators and terminators are rare for their own reasons, but where are you seeing anything that says that plague marines or rubric marines are getting rarer? I understand that you may assume that due to losses, rubric marines are getting rarer, but I've never seen this reflected in the fluff.

Every time someone mentions that the legions have been split apart into warbands as a defense of the "legions shouldn't be playable armies" argument, they never mention specific sources or circumstances. For instance, the story of the World Eaters breaking into warbands implies that the warbands are still "World Eaters" warbands, they just aren't a unified force any more. No mention is made of them allying with other factions. Obviously Abbadon has rallied many forces under his banner, but the description implies that this is the exception, not the rule. Please prove me wrong, but your arguments are currently lacking support.

That said, if I could add anything to the Chaos codex, it'd be more Daemon Weapons. Whose terrible idea was it to completely remove the ability to give your Chaos Lord a custom daemon weapon, and only have 2 named daemon weapons (one of them which can only be taken by a Khorne character)?


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/28 23:48:30


Post by: Extreaminatus


 Skriker wrote:
 Extreaminatus wrote:

What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?


And this is why many khorne themed armies fail: Because along the way some people seemed to think that because berserkers are melee troops that ALL forces in a khorne army must be melee focused. Khorne has NEVER had a prohibition against using anything but magic or psychic power. Khonre is just as happy to collect skulls from troops killed with heavy bolters and missile launchers as those killed by chain axe wielding maniacs. Driving around the battlefield in a predator and crushing people under the tracks? Khorne loves that too. My own massive khornate horde has *1* unit of berserkers and a couple dozen units of other types in it. Playing an army that is made up of only berserkers might be amusing as a one off, but is pretty tactically limited and hamstrung for regular usage.



Woah, buddy, slow down. Sarcasm was heavy in that post. BUT, since you brought it back up, let's take a moment to look at the Mark of Khorne and what it's good for: CC. Close Combat. The nitty-gritty. Asses and elbows time. The rough and tumble. Fisticuffs. Rumbles in jungles. Putting up dukes. Giving swirlies. Taking lunch money. Paying the piper. Riding the dragon. Shaving the weasle. Trapping the rabbit. Rocking on down to Electric Avenue.

I may have gotten lost.

Oh yeah. Mark of Khorne, close combat, not great at ranged.

I get that fluff is fun and all that, but this is a Codex discussion. I wish the MoK could be more useful outside of CC, but If you're putting the MoK on havocs, you're wasting points.

That's another thing I'd like to see a new codex: Marks that useful for more than one thing. Cool, MoS units can get +1Init, but I'd pay like, 5 points more for them to also get fleet with that, or the MoK get's +1WS and for however many points more they can re-roll to hit and/or to wound rolls for a turn.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 00:19:35


Post by: Abadabadoobaddon


Tycho wrote:
I would like to second, third, fourth and fifth anyone who said drop pods. Seriously. If you're not going to let us teleport in properly (i.e. with beacons, etc) then at least give us another decent deepstrike option. Especially since our transports kind of suck as well. Plus, I just feel like drop pods are more fun. I realize it's just my personal taste but I really LOVE drop pod assaults (even when they go horrendously wrong) and would enjoy being able to do it with my Chaos Marines.

CSM shouldn't use drop pods. Since they are Chaos, they don't like to use tactics. Instead they prefer to charge chaotically across the board headlong into the enemy's guns screaming praises to the Dark Gods. Then they either overrun the enemy, or more likely when enough of them have been killed they break and run away. This is all in the fluff - if you read up about the Great Crusade, you'll find this is how the Sons of Horus won all their battles.

This is why there are no mono-legion warbands in 40k - almost all the original legionaries are dead as a result of these tactics. VotLW is not meant to represent veterans of the Horus Heresy - it is meant to represent recent recruits who have managed to survive a battle or two. After losing yet another battle chewed up by bolter fire for the umpteenth time you really start to hate Space Marines. It's going to be a Looooong War indeed!


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 02:09:06


Post by: Senior Penguin


 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
. VotLW is not meant to represent veterans of the Horus Heresy - it is meant to represent recent recruits who have managed to survive a battle or two. After losing yet another battle chewed up by bolter fire for the umpteenth time you really start to hate Space Marines. It's going to be a Looooong War indeed!


I don't know, the book says that VotLW represents chaos marines who have been fighting the Imperium for centuries or millennia. It also mentions surviving marines of the Horus Heresy.

That said, they really should have put land raiders, or some sort of assault vehicle with a bigger transport capacity. I mean, they let you take marines and zerkers in units of 20, but you have no way of moving them quickly. It doesn't HAVE to be a land raider, but there should definitely be something there.

A good, specialized, anti-air option would have been great.

I also don't understand why some of these things can't be fixed. I mean, there shouldn't be anything stopping GW from releasing a new model with rules attached to it. Hell, they'd make a lot more money.



Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 02:24:07


Post by: Idle Hands


To the OP:

1) Chaos variants for the Land Raider and Predator. Quite simply I feel they should exist, as most Techpriests who join chaos are the kind who is not dogmatic and doesn't follow the preset pattern. None of them figured out some other guns to put on these platforms or what could be shucked out of the LR to fit more drooling mutant psychopaths? Besides, I really like these tanks, but I'd like to see them a bit different from loyalist versions.

2) Better marks. The mark of Tzeentch is the worst offender, being both a really bad choice and boring. However, it's just the tip of the iceberg. For one I'd like to see more differentiation, not all marked marinesare equally blessed. I guess one way to do this would be tiered marks, so a normal MoN would give +1 T, but HQ and possibly elites can take a greater mark that gives +1 T and FNP (maybe even add a way expensive exalted mark). Alternatively Marks could be more dependant on what unit takes it. Right now the MoK and MoS are useless on havocs. Havocs who dedicate themselves to these gods obviously take their dedication in a different direction, so they should carry marks that support their specialisation.

3) Possessed, propably the other demon units and maybe spawn should be "Demons of..." instead of marked. It feels more fluffy to me and would make these units a bit better.

4) More HQ. Chaos is all about the mighty champions leading the devoted, yet they get as many as everyone else. Maybe split HQ into exhalted and greater champions. You can take up to three greater champions per slot or one exhalted. Sorcerers (up to ml 2), Apostles, Warpsmiths and a 2w downgraded generals are greater and never change the FOC. Generals, DP, SC and Sorcerer Lords (ml 3, 3w) are exalted.

5) Reorganized psychic powers. Night Lords and Tzeentch sorcerers should have access to divination, but I do not see them using biomancy. Players shouldn't feel punished for marking their sorcerers.

6) I'd like to see another cult unit for each god, just to show that the followers of the Chaos Gods aren't one-dimensional. Not all devotees of Slaaneesh are noise m., that's a rather EC specific developement. And I don't think I have to explain to anyone why rubic marines aren't representative of Tzeentchs followers at all.

7) Aknowledge the Legions with a system like the chapter traits. I personaly do not care much for it, but it would at least cut down a little on the wailing, gnashing of teeth and endless complaining.


Which brings me to part two of this post:

Could we please, please, have threads on Chaos that, within the first few posts, do not devolve into a huge shouting match beween those who are discontent with the way Chaos is treated (for whatever reason) and those who feel the complainers are wrong (for whatever reason). Because whenever I look, there already is a very long thread in general dedicated to or at least taken over by that discussion, and yet I can't read any other Chaos thread in general or tactical that aren't constantly derailed by it. Even the other board are afflicted, it crops up in background, in battlereports, even P&M isn't free.

I love Chaos dearly and, yes, I'm not exactly happy with the current codex, but this archives nothing and puts me of even opening threads on the faction. It only feeds the trolls and makes the entire Chaos player base look like the worst bunch of whiners in wargaming.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 08:08:28


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


Tycho wrote:

If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...



lol Wow! It took three full pages for someone to make this about Templars ...



Yeah, when someone claims that one can't count Chaos Sorcerers because they're not fluffy for a Khorne-themed list you'd better believe I'm going to point out how silly that is. That's not "making the thread about Templars", it's pointing out how insane of an argument it is.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 09:43:09


Post by: Isengard


I am disappointed by the lack of 'magic' items if you will. This is one of the things that gives chaos a unique quality, daemon swords and the like. I would have liked a bigger selection to choose from, limited to one per IC or something sensible, but a good selection, like WFB armies get access to.

In relation to the what are CSM and what do they do, I don't think GW have ever set out a consistent picture, with lots of contradictory descriptions over time. I honestly think that CSM vary immensely and have lots of different organisations. It may be that within a given legion they are totally split, some have gone loner, some have diverse warbands, some have stayed set in old pre HH formations. I do suspect that the daemon primarchs keep to themselves mostly but if they do emerge their genechildren will rally to them whatever their current set-up.

It's hard to gauge what the CSM can and cannot do. Can they create new marines from geneseed or are they reliant on defectors? Can they manufacture any equipment or do they need to steal it? Why don't they actually make use of the huge amount of post HH equipment they must have captured over the millennia - no razorbacks, no drop pods, no speeders, no variant landraiders? Is it because they are completely wedded to their pre HH ways, if so why did they break up into warbands? Presumably it's for game balance so GW can differentiate the armies?

They're a movable feast, you can do with them as you wish. They are vague and so you can put whatever spin you like on them.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 15:12:33


Post by: Skriker


 somerandomidiot wrote:
As a Thousand Sons player, I've read pretty much everything on them and never heard anything about rubric marines being specifically rare. Obviously, chaos marines are rare in general, and things like obliterators and terminators are rare for their own reasons, but where are you seeing anything that says that plague marines or rubric marines are getting rarer? I understand that you may assume that due to losses, rubric marines are getting rarer, but I've never seen this reflected in the fluff.

Every time someone mentions that the legions have been split apart into warbands as a defense of the "legions shouldn't be playable armies" argument, they never mention specific sources or circumstances. For instance, the story of the World Eaters breaking into warbands implies that the warbands are still "World Eaters" warbands, they just aren't a unified force any more. No mention is made of them allying with other factions. Obviously Abbadon has rallied many forces under his banner, but the description implies that this is the exception, not the rule. Please prove me wrong, but your arguments are currently lacking support.


The new codex is just one place where the growing rarity of the rhubric marines is written. Note I said not much has been written about noise marines and plaguemarines, except a small blurb from the past that said original plaguemarines were becoming rare. That means that *not much has been written about them other than a small blurb" so that is not really me saying that plague marines are getting rarer, but me pointing out that not much has been said about them other than a single small note about the subject. My new tzeetch CSM force is based specifically on the verbage of rhubric marines being very rare now. Sorry no books in front of me so can't give you the page number.

Also sorry there are no "specific circumstances" to the legions breaking up. Such things are mentioned in passing by those writing the fluff, and if they can't be bothered to put details to the situation exactly how are the rest of us supposed to provide such circumstances? I find that continuing to keep harping on the old "legions" despite also adding in the newer renegades to the mix takes a force that can be dynamic and interesting and hammers it into the same old molds again and again. I think the codex could be more open ended and interesting if it was just thrown out. That is what we call *opinoin* so I am not "making an arguement" needing rock solid proof or evidence. I am sharing an opinion on why I dislike it: If just *one* of the chaos legions actually remained fully intact it could devastate most of the Imperium by itself just from sheer force of numbers alone, and if all of them did chaos should be ruling the galaxy completely. The imperium panicked after the heresy and broke up all the legions left into smaller entitied spreadout and with their own command to avoid such masses of troops being instantly at the disposal of a single commander again. So even if the Space Wolves, Blood Angels, Ultramarines, Salamanders, Dark Angels and Imperial Fists all stood against them a single chaos legion would wipe the planet's surface clean with their corpses. This is why I think sticking to the old legion thinking is dumb. It doesn't fit within the context of the game to any real degree. The only primary reason chaos hasn't done this is because they forces of chaos are generally too busy fighting with each other. There are plenty of World Eater warbands out there, and most of them are probably fighting each other to prove who are the *real* world eaters.

Of course all this said, I couldn't care one bit if someone wants to play an army based on one of the old legions. They are free to do whatever they want. My whole position is how GW's thinking on the subject is muddled and not even remotely consistent.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Extreaminatus wrote:
Woah, buddy, slow down. Sarcasm was heavy in that post. BUT, since you brought it back up, let's take a moment to look at the Mark of Khorne and what it's good for: CC. Close Combat. The nitty-gritty. Asses and elbows time. The rough and tumble. Fisticuffs. Rumbles in jungles. Putting up dukes. Giving swirlies. Taking lunch money. Paying the piper. Riding the dragon. Shaving the weasle. Trapping the rabbit. Rocking on down to Electric Avenue.

I may have gotten lost.

Oh yeah. Mark of Khorne, close combat, not great at ranged.

I get that fluff is fun and all that, but this is a Codex discussion. I wish the MoK could be more useful outside of CC, but If you're putting the MoK on havocs, you're wasting points.

That's another thing I'd like to see a new codex: Marks that useful for more than one thing. Cool, MoS units can get +1Init, but I'd pay like, 5 points more for them to also get fleet with that, or the MoK get's +1WS and for however many points more they can re-roll to hit and/or to wound rolls for a turn.


Oh wow the mark of khorne improves CC. So? Stop limiting yourself to that kind of thinking. Yes this is a codex discussion and you are *still* limiting your codex view with the fluff completely. Within the bounds of your khornate force you can easily have units of all marks. The more frenzied brothers end up as berserkers or termies with the mark of khorne. Some of your faster bretheren could be regular CSMs effectively with the mark of slaanesh. Your tougher and harder to move forces will fill your havoc slots with the mark of nurgle and so on. There is also nothing stopping you from having a force dedicated to khorne where few if any of the units have any marks at all. The marks are a *tool* to provide abilities and features to your forces. Just like you can use the Tyrant to run a Night Lords force of infiltrators you can use all the marks to simulate just about anything in your forces on the table top. Using all the marks and tools in the codex to build your army instead of limiting yourself by saying "Well the mark of khorne only does this" is all how it works. I have dozens of units in my khornate CSM army. At most 3 of them actually have a khorne mark with respect to the rules. I've been playing khorne from the get go and just use the tools in the codex fully to keep my vision of my khorne forces clear and true instead of just worrying about the specific marks being used. All the marks do is determine what units you can use as troops, and the special abilities of the marked unit on the table. Just let your opponent read your list before the game so they know they are not just facing a mono-marked force...

Skriker


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 15:40:55


Post by: Barfolomew


 Skriker wrote:
The fluff is kind of at odds with itself. It is well documented (new Black Legion supplement not withstanding) that the World Eater's collapsed as a legion shortly after the failure at Terra and Horus's death. Without the war to focus on they because focusing on themselves and split into numerous splinter factions. The next most well documented is the thousand sons. Rhubric marines are supposed to be incredibly rare in general and having 2 units of them in your tzeentch aligned force is supposed to be a big deal. Not much has been said about the emperor's children or the deathguard other than a small blurb about original plaguemarines are becoming more rare. The whole concept of them *still* harping on the legions is dumb. The chaos legions haven't really existed as such for generations. It should all be about the warbands and allegiance to the various powers of chaos. Sure berserkers, plague marines and noise marines still exist and more can be created all the time. Rhubric marines are a tough sell though because once they are destroyed it isn't as if there is another source to use to create more of them.

Also what is the point of including "renegades" to the codex if they end up just as limited in equipment and options as those forces that were based on parts from the original legions? Why wouldn't my newly fallen force of marines still have its crusaders and redeemers at their disposal? It just makes zero sense. The book wants to be two distinct entities in the game, but I don't think it ultimately fulfills either of them. :\

I played CSM from 2nd edition on and stayed very engaged in the game and reading a fair number of the CSM black library books. Granted the books tend to be heavily stylized to play up the chapter they are about. Here is how I think the fluff and the game should interact.

Worldeaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers - This is actually pretty simple to justify a specific army. Demons fill the gaps that would normally be filled by other MEQ units. It was pretty common to have a couple units of Berserkers with a couple units of demons in a standard Khorne army prior to GW gutting the demon section. These legions should have bonuses for Demon allies. Anytime they need a larger force, they pray to the patron of choice and he sends over some help. Once the battle is over, the demons fade back to the warp. Cultist could be another option because every legion needs some groupies.

Black Legion, Renegades - These are the take anything you want chapters, but should not get any bonuses. They fill their ranks by whatever means necessary.

Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors & Night Lords - These are your evil marine chapters where they most closely mirror the regular Space Marines. They should get a bonus to ally with Guard as they would either subjugate them or manipulate them into to working with them. Veterans should be the emphasis on these legions with people being able to take certain veteran units cheaper. Justification for more Marine units than the others is that they recruit more and haven't fully abandoned the ways to keep their tech up to date.

 Skriker wrote:
ATSKNF is an annoyance to me. It makes no sense that marines can be so completely immune to fear due to their conditioning, but lose that ability even after living in the terrifying environs of the Eye of Terror. If one lives side by side with daemons daily and the insanity that is chaos I can't understand why ATSKNF would just vanish as opposed to getting stronger. My solution, though, is not to give it to chaos marines, but to just remove it completely. It is one of the most broken rules in the game and needs to go.
Makes no sense to me either. CSM should probably be fearlees or bring back the undivided mark with high leadership.

 Skriker wrote:
While I loved the original randomness of chaos back in the day, after thinking about it more I think adding it back in to such an extreme to the current codex was a bad maneuver.
Randomness = bad. GW also prices the units based on getting the best result and then gives them a wide range of abilities. If it were +1 S, +1 T, +1 W, +1 A, +1 I or fearless, the it would be pretty reasonable, though I think randomness should go away completely.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 16:01:29


Post by: Quintinus


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.


Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol


If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...


Yeah, too bad you're also going to get access to:

Land Raiders with a larger capacity, ATSKNF, multiple special characters, the ability to ally with your own codex without supplements, your own special HQ (the Emperor's Champion), amongst others.

Let me get out my violin for you, you poor poor baby.

 Skriker wrote:
Just like you can use the Tyrant to run a Night Lords force of infiltrators you can use all the marks to simulate just about anything in your forces on the table top. Using all the marks and tools in the codex to build your army instead of limiting yourself by saying "Well the mark of khorne only does this" is all how it works. I have dozens of units in my khornate CSM army. At most 3 of them actually have a khorne mark with respect to the rules. I've been playing khorne from the get go and just use the tools in the codex fully to keep my vision of my khorne forces clear and true instead of just worrying about the specific marks being used. All the marks do is determine what units you can use as troops, and the special abilities of the marked unit on the table. Just let your opponent read your list before the game so they know they are not just facing a mono-marked force...

Skriker


Dude if I'm going to go through that much trouble to do counts-as "durr muh tough marines have the mark of nurgal XDD XDD but dey are actually Khorne DDD" then I'm just going to use another codex.
Space Wolves fit the Khornate army ideal that I envision much better anyway: I can have Juggernaut riders, I can have badass Champions, I can have guys who are both great in range and combat, and brutal long range via Long Fangs. Hell, Blood Angels make a great pre-heresy World Eaters and the new Space marine codex with the Black Templar chapter tactics would also work better.

If I have to go through that much trouble to counts-as, the codex has failed pure and simple.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 16:08:39


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.


Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol


If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...


Yeah, too bad you're also going to get access to:

Land Raiders with a larger capacity, ATSKNF, multiple special characters, the ability to ally with your own codex without supplements, your own special HQ (the Emperor's Champion), amongst others.

Let me get out my violin for you, you poor poor baby.


Oh please. You said that it wasn't fair that VeteranSergeant counted all the options in the CSM Codex because not all of it is available to Khorne-themed fluffy lists. I pointed out that the same is true for a Loyalist Chapter. If you can't have a civil discussion without jumping onto personal assaults I don't see why you're here. Chaos gets a metric crapton of options. Sure, a lot of them are rather iffy at best, but that's an issue with them being iffy, not with you not having options in the first place.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 16:17:12


Post by: Quintinus


 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.


Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol


If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...


Yeah, too bad you're also going to get access to:

Land Raiders with a larger capacity, ATSKNF, multiple special characters, the ability to ally with your own codex without supplements, your own special HQ (the Emperor's Champion), amongst others.

Let me get out my violin for you, you poor poor baby.


Oh please. You said that it wasn't fair that VeteranSergeant counted all the options in the CSM Codex because not all of it is available to Khorne-themed fluffy lists. I pointed out that the same is true for a Loyalist Chapter. If you can't have a civil discussion without jumping onto personal assaults I don't see why you're here. Chaos gets a metric crapton of options. Sure, a lot of them are rather iffy at best, but that's an issue with them being iffy, not with you not having options in the first place.


No, Khorne just doesn't get access to Psykers. Read the Chaos rulebook. Psykers may not take the Mark of Khorne.

Yes I acknowledge that you can't take Psykers either as Black Templar. But that's ALL you can't do as a Templar in the new Space Marine codex.

And as I noted before, Chaos only has "so many options" because it's sort of a false option. What if you play Undivided, ala Iron Warriors? Then you don't have any more options than normal Space Marines. You get to choose your special, your heavy, and maybe one or two different things.

Furthermore, options aren't the end-all-be-all. We have to pay for VotLW. We have to pay for our special rule and in every single instance, it's over-costed. You do realize that with votlw, a Chaos Space Marine costs as much as a Tactical Marine, except that the Tactical Marine is significantly better in nearly way?

Options mean nothing if they're complete crap. And if you can't take sarcasm then you may want to get off the computer, just sayin.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 17:17:52


Post by: Veteran Sergeant


 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.
Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol
Except that the Chapter Master's and the Tactical Squad's options are locked into specific combos too. We're just talking total options. I'm not going to sit here and do the math to figure out just how many possible combos there are. Maybe you guys should get on that. This will give you something productive to do.

Though I doubt it's going to give you the results you want.

Again, you guys are flailing here. The bottom line is, you guys want Codex: Chaos Space Marines to be Codex: Space Marines, but spiky and with skulls. The reality is, the two armies are entirely different, and just based around dudes called "Space Marines". Lots of stuff exist in the Codex books to balance them out (succeed or fail is irrelevant) and a lot of options are limited to drive sales of different models. But the reality is, there is a ton of variety and option in the Chaos Space Marines codex. As much, or more, than the Space Marine Codex books get. No, you don't get all the fancy Land Raiders. The crazy Chaos factories are bored by things like Land Raiders. It makes giant Khornemowers and Rotary Cannon Dogs and Spiderbots, and Goopnaughts and Metal Dragons because Chaos gonna do what Chaos gonna do.

If you wanted to play Space Marines... well, maybe you should have played Space Marines.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 17:35:27


Post by: AlmightyWalrus


 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.


Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol


If only there were some sort of Loyalist Chapter that couldn't take Librarians...


Yeah, too bad you're also going to get access to:

Land Raiders with a larger capacity, ATSKNF, multiple special characters, the ability to ally with your own codex without supplements, your own special HQ (the Emperor's Champion), amongst others.

Let me get out my violin for you, you poor poor baby.


Oh please. You said that it wasn't fair that VeteranSergeant counted all the options in the CSM Codex because not all of it is available to Khorne-themed fluffy lists. I pointed out that the same is true for a Loyalist Chapter. If you can't have a civil discussion without jumping onto personal assaults I don't see why you're here. Chaos gets a metric crapton of options. Sure, a lot of them are rather iffy at best, but that's an issue with them being iffy, not with you not having options in the first place.


No, Khorne just doesn't get access to Psykers. Read the Chaos rulebook. Psykers may not take the Mark of Khorne.

Yes I acknowledge that you can't take Psykers either as Black Templar. But that's ALL you can't do as a Templar in the new Space Marine codex.

And as I noted before, Chaos only has "so many options" because it's sort of a false option. What if you play Undivided, ala Iron Warriors? Then you don't have any more options than normal Space Marines. You get to choose your special, your heavy, and maybe one or two different things.

Furthermore, options aren't the end-all-be-all. We have to pay for VotLW. We have to pay for our special rule and in every single instance, it's over-costed. You do realize that with votlw, a Chaos Space Marine costs as much as a Tactical Marine, except that the Tactical Marine is significantly better in nearly way?

Options mean nothing if they're complete crap. And if you can't take sarcasm then you may want to get off the computer, just sayin.


Calling someone a "poor, poor baby" isn't sarcasm, it's patronizing.

That said, Templars don't get access to Special Characters other than their own, so while I'm supposed to be extatic about my "multiple special characters (i.e. 3 of them)", Chaos can still take anyone they feel like.

Again, I agree with you, but stop complaining about how Chaos doesn't have options and start complaining about how the myriads of options you have aren't exactly inspiring. As has been pointed out, you have more options than Vanilla Marines, so it's not the number of options that are lacking but rather their impact on the game (and to be fair, a lot of Vanilla options are jokes too).


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 17:49:47


Post by: somerandomidiot


 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

]You've never actually seen Codex: Space Marines, have you? What you just described is ten times more options than it has. A couple extra Land Raiders and Razorbacks are the massive options available to the Space Marine player? The Chaos Lord has 38 different options. The Space Marine Chapter Master has 20. 29 if you include Chapter Tactics as options. Please, tell me another story about the options in the SM codex, lol.
Very cute but false. Some options are locked to certain marks (i.e. Plague Grenades to Mark of Nurgle, Book of Magnus to Tzeentch, etc) and if you're playing as a certain god (i,e,) Khorne you lose out on entire options such as Librarians, psychic mastery in general, etc etc.

The same goes with Chaos Space Marines. You're just counting every single option they could make even if they can't actually take it which makes zero sense, lol lol
Except that the Chapter Master's and the Tactical Squad's options are locked into specific combos too. We're just talking total options. I'm not going to sit here and do the math to figure out just how many possible combos there are. Maybe you guys should get on that. This will give you something productive to do.

Though I doubt it's going to give you the results you want.

Again, you guys are flailing here. The bottom line is, you guys want Codex: Chaos Space Marines to be Codex: Space Marines, but spiky and with skulls. The reality is, the two armies are entirely different, and just based around dudes called "Space Marines". Lots of stuff exist in the Codex books to balance them out (succeed or fail is irrelevant) and a lot of options are limited to drive sales of different models. But the reality is, there is a ton of variety and option in the Chaos Space Marines codex. As much, or more, than the Space Marine Codex books get. No, you don't get all the fancy Land Raiders. The crazy Chaos factories are bored by things like Land Raiders. It makes giant Khornemowers and Rotary Cannon Dogs and Spiderbots, and Goopnaughts and Metal Dragons because Chaos gonna do what Chaos gonna do.

If you wanted to play Space Marines... well, maybe you should have played Space Marines.


The total number of options available is a completely meaningless number. You seem to have latched onto it like it means something. It'd be just as pointless to compare number of pages in the codex, or which one has more USRs, etc. The number that matters is the number of options available to a specific theme, and that number varies with the theme. Pretending that it is any other way is disingenuous, because theme restricts the total number of options used. Every army has a theme, whether it is a specific space marine chapter, or a specific craftworld, or even a regiment of mixed imperial guard forces. It just happens to be that unlike most other codexes, the themes that chaos players (both marine and daemon) use are incredibly restrictive.

For example, an army themed to the Ultramarines chapter can use 100% of the options in the current marine codex, except for a couple of special characters (and even then, you are encouraged to convert your own chapter-specific version of them). An army themed to the World Eaters can use x% of the chaos marine codex, where x < 100. In fact, it is significantly less than 100%.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 17:58:29


Post by: Veteran Sergeant


Except you're just making up random numbers.

The reality is, if your army is "Ultramarine themed" you can't use half the special characters. If your army is "Crimson Fist themed", you can only use one of them. And if yours is "DIY Chapter Themed" you can't use any of them.

You're just placing artificial limits on yourself. Which is fine. But don't blame it on the Codex book.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 18:13:34


Post by: Tycho


CSM shouldn't use drop pods. Since they are Chaos, they don't like to use tactics. Instead they prefer to charge chaotically across the board headlong into the enemy's guns screaming praises to the Dark Gods. Then they either overrun the enemy, or more likely when enough of them have been killed they break and run away. This is all in the fluff - if you read up about the Great Crusade, you'll find this is how the Sons of Horus won all their battles.

This is why there are no mono-legion warbands in 40k - almost all the original legionaries are dead as a result of these tactics. VotLW is not meant to represent veterans of the Horus Heresy - it is meant to represent recent recruits who have managed to survive a battle or two. After losing yet another battle chewed up by bolter fire for the umpteenth time you really start to hate Space Marines. It's going to be a Looooong War indeed!


I swear that is EXACTLY what Kelly's design brief was ...


Options mean nothing if they're complete crap. And if you can't take sarcasm then you may want to get off the computer, just sayin.


He um ... He doesn't. In my experience. Understand it. The sarcasm that is ...


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 18:37:38


Post by: Quintinus


 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Except that the Chapter Master's and the Tactical Squad's options are locked into specific combos too. We're just talking total options. I'm not going to sit here and do the math to figure out just how many possible combos there are. Maybe you guys should get on that. This will give you something productive to do.

Though I doubt it's going to give you the results you want.


Really? What options are you "locked" into? Other than "can't take Terminator armor if you're on a bike", which abides for every army. You guys are going to get a Tac squad that is basically similar to the Dark Angels one, PLUS you guys will have Chapter Tactics. Furthermore, since the Space Marine book is going to have MORE units and MORE weaponry, you will have more options.

This is of course assuming that just "options" is important, which it isn't.


Again, you guys are flailing here. The bottom line is, you guys want Codex: Chaos Space Marines to be Codex: Space Marines, but spiky and with skulls.

We're flailing and you're the one using strawmans. lol

Most people here want something like 3.5 where yes, there were a ton of options, and tons of ways to theme your army. You can't do that now, at least not without counts-as. Personally I prefer the Rogue Trader style where the 4 god-aligned legions had their own army list plus the Black Legion for undivided. Regardless, Phail Kelly's "attempt" (I used that word lightly) fails in all respects to live up to the Rogue Trader incarnation.


The reality is, the two armies are entirely different, and just based around dudes called "Space Marines". Lots of stuff exist in the Codex books to balance them out (succeed or fail is irrelevant) and a lot of options are limited to drive sales of different models. But the reality is, there is a ton of variety and option in the Chaos Space Marines codex. As much, or more, than the Space Marine Codex books get. No, you don't get all the fancy Land Raiders. The crazy Chaos factories are bored by things like Land Raiders. It makes giant Khornemowers and Rotary Cannon Dogs and Spiderbots, and Goopnaughts and Metal Dragons because Chaos gonna do what Chaos gonna do.

Tons of variety? Oh yes. Like, "do I take the dinobot with powerfists or the dinobot with guns?". Soooo many options. Again, for you options is all you are rambling about and even then the normal Space Marine book has more units and will have more weapon options (see Grav weapons) and overall more variety due to the Chapter Tactics system.


If you wanted to play Space Marines... well, maybe you should have played Space Marines.


I do. I counts-as my World Eaters as Space Wolves.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
And if yours is "DIY Chapter Themed" you can't use any of them.



This is false since for a DIY chapter you just pick the relevant Chapter Tactics. Then you use those SC's. Worse case scenario, you ally in. WITH YOUR OWN BOOK, I should add.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 19:40:30


Post by: ZebioLizard2



Tons of variety? Oh yes. Like, "do I take the dinobot with powerfists or the dinobot with guns?". Soooo many options. Again, for you options is all you are rambling about and even then the normal Space Marine book has more units and will have more weapon options (see Grav weapons) and overall more variety due to the Chapter Tactics system.


We can't even use the new dinobot weapons with our old stuff, no baleflamer preds/land raiders, no hades cannon replacing autocannons, and other such things.

Even FFG in the new book gave access to a hand held ectoplasm launcher.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 21:10:40


Post by: Skriker


Barfolomew wrote:
Worldeaters, Death Guard, Emperor's Children, Thousand Sons, Word Bearers - This is actually pretty simple to justify a specific army. Demons fill the gaps that would normally be filled by other MEQ units. It was pretty common to have a couple units of Berserkers with a couple units of demons in a standard Khorne army prior to GW gutting the demon section. These legions should have bonuses for Demon allies. Anytime they need a larger force, they pray to the patron of choice and he sends over some help. Once the battle is over, the demons fade back to the warp. Cultist could be another option because every legion needs some groupies.

Black Legion, Renegades - These are the take anything you want chapters, but should not get any bonuses. They fill their ranks by whatever means necessary.

Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors & Night Lords - These are your evil marine chapters where they most closely mirror the regular Space Marines. They should get a bonus to ally with Guard as they would either subjugate them or manipulate them into to working with them. Veterans should be the emphasis on these legions with people being able to take certain veteran units cheaper. Justification for more Marine units than the others is that they recruit more and haven't fully abandoned the ways to keep their tech up to date.


Hrm... I like these. They are an interestingly different take on the whole thing. The "big four" have definitely dedicated themselves a bit more significantly to the specific powers and the Word Bearers certainly offer their allegiance to all of the various powers of chaos fully. Your ideas on Black Legion are kind of why I scratched my head at the concept of the Black Legion being the first CSM supplement. The current book is already setup to include any and all units like the Black Legion does. Curious to see if everyone's fears of *4* heldrakes come to pass or not.

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Vladsimpaler wrote:
Dude if I'm going to go through that much trouble to do counts-as "durr muh tough marines have the mark of nurgal XDD XDD but dey are actually Khorne DDD" then I'm just going to use another codex.
Space Wolves fit the Khornate army ideal that I envision much better anyway: I can have Juggernaut riders, I can have badass Champions, I can have guys who are both great in range and combat, and brutal long range via Long Fangs. Hell, Blood Angels make a great pre-heresy World Eaters and the new Space marine codex with the Black Templar chapter tactics would also work better.

If I have to go through that much trouble to counts-as, the codex has failed pure and simple.


Go through what trouble? Using the rules as written in the codex is going through *trouble*. Well whatever mate do what makes you happy. Space wolves are a fine option too. The *point* which you missed is that by focusing only on the mark of khorne that is also limiting things based on fluff. All they are is rules. My own khorne army actually has a whopping *3* units with marks, all of them khorne. I still use what rules I can to keep my vision alive for khornate marines. I don't mark by havocs, but can still call them followers of khorne in my army.

Annoying that once again *one* force will get something like chapter tactics to use when most armies could benefit from such a mechanic, but that is a discussion for a different thread...

Skriker


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/29 21:35:19


Post by: Quintinus


 Skriker wrote:

Go through what trouble? Using the rules as written in the codex is going through *trouble*. Well whatever mate do what makes you happy. Space wolves are a fine option too. The *point* which you missed is that by focusing only on the mark of khorne that is also limiting things based on fluff. All they are is rules. My own khorne army actually has a whopping *3* units with marks, all of them khorne. I still use what rules I can to keep my vision alive for khornate marines. I don't mark by havocs, but can still call them followers of khorne in my army.

No, you are also limited based on game mechanics once you take a mark. For example, you can't take a Slaanesh lord and then put it in a unit of Khorne Berserkers.

The Mark of Khorne (or Slaanesh) on ranged models like Obliterators and Havocs further shows the problems of the book and why I said that Phail Kelly is a complete hack.

For example, why not make the Mark of Khorne give "Preferred Enemy: All" (with a points increase) and have Slaanesh give "Stubborn" or "Fearless" (like it does in Fantasy and used to in 40k). Then, both Marks would be useful for any type of model, not just certain models.

What I'm saying is that if I am going to go through the trouble of telling my opponent "these berserkers actually aren't berserkers and they have the mark of nurgle", I might as well get a more interesting book (that's cheaper in terms of $$) and say "these berserkers are grey hunters".


Annoying that once again *one* force will get something like chapter tactics to use when most armies could benefit from such a mechanic, but that is a discussion for a different thread...

Skriker


I bring it up because of Veteran Sergeant trying to use "muh options" as an argument.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/30 23:01:05


Post by: Extreaminatus


 Skriker wrote:
 Extreaminatus wrote:
Woah, buddy, slow down. Sarcasm was heavy in that post. BUT, since you brought it back up, let's take a moment to look at the Mark of Khorne and what it's good for: CC. Close Combat. The nitty-gritty. Asses and elbows time. The rough and tumble. Fisticuffs. Rumbles in jungles. Putting up dukes. Giving swirlies. Taking lunch money. Paying the piper. Riding the dragon. Shaving the weasle. Trapping the rabbit. Rocking on down to Electric Avenue.

I may have gotten lost.

Oh yeah. Mark of Khorne, close combat, not great at ranged.

I get that fluff is fun and all that, but this is a Codex discussion. I wish the MoK could be more useful outside of CC, but If you're putting the MoK on havocs, you're wasting points.

That's another thing I'd like to see a new codex: Marks that useful for more than one thing. Cool, MoS units can get +1Init, but I'd pay like, 5 points more for them to also get fleet with that, or the MoK get's +1WS and for however many points more they can re-roll to hit and/or to wound rolls for a turn.


Oh wow the mark of khorne improves CC. So? Stop limiting yourself to that kind of thinking. Yes this is a codex discussion and you are *still* limiting your codex view with the fluff completely. Within the bounds of your khornate force you can easily have units of all marks. The more frenzied brothers end up as berserkers or termies with the mark of khorne. Some of your faster bretheren could be regular CSMs effectively with the mark of slaanesh. Your tougher and harder to move forces will fill your havoc slots with the mark of nurgle and so on. There is also nothing stopping you from having a force dedicated to khorne where few if any of the units have any marks at all. The marks are a *tool* to provide abilities and features to your forces. Just like you can use the Tyrant to run a Night Lords force of infiltrators you can use all the marks to simulate just about anything in your forces on the table top. Using all the marks and tools in the codex to build your army instead of limiting yourself by saying "Well the mark of khorne only does this" is all how it works. I have dozens of units in my khornate CSM army. At most 3 of them actually have a khorne mark with respect to the rules. I've been playing khorne from the get go and just use the tools in the codex fully to keep my vision of my khorne forces clear and true instead of just worrying about the specific marks being used. All the marks do is determine what units you can use as troops, and the special abilities of the marked unit on the table. Just let your opponent read your list before the game so they know they are not just facing a mono-marked force...

Skriker


All I'm reading here is, "I proxy stuff."

I get that you like the fluff, I DO TOO, but when it comes down to the rules, the marks are limited no matter how you spin your fluff. What you describe above with respect to the rules is a Chaos Undivided or mix-marked army that you painted red.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/30 23:14:23


Post by: somerandomidiot


 Extreaminatus wrote:


All I'm reading here is, "I proxy stuff."

I get that you like the fluff, I DO TOO, but when it comes down to the rules, the marks are limited no matter how you spin your fluff. What you describe above with respect to the rules is a Chaos Undivided or mix-marked army that you painted red.


I think this really rings home when his Mark of Khorne character can't join most of his squads because they have the wrong mark.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/08/31 03:27:45


Post by: The nameless


1) Marked vehicles/walkers because it just makes sense that Nurgle's L.raider acts different than a Khorne based one.
2) Termie armour for the Dark Apostle because it would be glorious.
3) If the dark mechanicus has the time to play with dinosaurs, they got time to build drop pods.
4) A worthy item to affect deep striking better than the "don't roll 6's, don't roll 6's........gak!"
5) More than 6 artifacts, they could've claimed " Chaos star has 8 sides, here's 8 artifacts."
6) Assault grenades for the warp talons.
7) Champion of Chaos isn't a good rule, you never got to be a Chaos Lord by constantly dueling, pretty sure it was just easier to shoot him in the face.
8) Daemon Weapon of "x". It would've been nice to take a sword/fist/claw/maul/ax and have it blessed by the gods.

My two jaded cents.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/09/02 12:08:08


Post by: Extreaminatus


Chosen of Chaos isn't a terrible rule, but it's not great. I do like that if my cultist champion kills a character with his shotgun he can turn into a DP, though.

I wish they had given us Daemon Weapons of "X". Like, sure, you have the BBoS and AoBF and other cool weapons, but you could also have thrown in a, "Daemon Weapon for 15 points, rules change based on which Mark of Chaos the character possesses."

And also drop pods. I really want drop pods.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/09/02 12:54:04


Post by: welshhoppo


If I had drop pods I'd be happy.


Or could you imagine an upgrade for the Heldrake where it carries a drop pod, just think of the cheese from that.....


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/09/02 14:08:29


Post by: Extreaminatus


New twist: Heldrake is a drop pod with a baleflamer: it poops marines out of its giant rear thruster hole, then goes about flaming the enemy.


Things we wish Chaos had in their new Codex @ 2013/09/02 21:36:19


Post by: happygolucky


 Extreaminatus wrote:
New twist: Heldrake is a drop pod with a baleflamer: it poops marines out of its giant rear thruster hole, then goes about flaming the enemy.


Also all enemy units within 120" of this model suffer 24D6 Str 10 AP 1 automatic hits and ignores void shields