Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Make MoT a ++5 save again, with +1 on chars/units with an invul save already. Now there is no reason to buy one expensive mark for such a little boost. Why change it from the previous ++5, it wasnt too good back then, now it just plain sucks on regulars.

And make the Land Raider be able to transport 12 models, the loyalist can get 12, why not Chaos? Did they really take that many steroids, or do renegades just downsize all their Land Raiders to fit in with the crowd. It makes no sense at all.

Honestly, after all the crap Chaos has that is nothing but terrible versions of their loyalist counterparts, they should at least have razorbacks... and competitive land raider variants...

Why does the loyalist LR have power of the machine spirit, yet my daemonically possessed LR straight out of the warp can't even get an invuln save, nor act as if it were possessed?... the best it can do is destroy one of my own models v_v"

Simply amazing ~.~

 Extreaminatus wrote:

 Kain wrote:
Cult bikers, cult raptors, cult havocs, cult terminators, cult daemon engines, cult dreadnoughts, cult tanks.

Chaos undivided gets too many toys.

Never gonna happen again. The best we can hope for is what we have already: marks and icons, which doing pretty much what the cult units get besides some USRs and/or weapons.

Also, what would cult havocs have?
Blastmasters for Slaanesh? Already have 'em on Noise Marines.
AP3 heavy bolter ammo for Tzeentch? Nobody takes heavy bolters anyway and the other weapons are AP3 already.
What do you want Nurgle to have? The best I can think of is poisoned shooting, maybe? Like, Fleshbane/Armorbane?
What the heck would Khorne do with havocs? Shoot chain axes at the enemy?

Ap2 Heavy bolters and Autocannons, AP4 Frag missiles, AP2 flak missiles, and AP1 krak missiles for rubric havocs.

Yes, but Havocs can spam them harder.

Poisoned weapons, FNP, and such.

Khorne can just have all autocanons all the time.

In any case me and my group already broke Chaos Space Marines into 10 minidexes, one for each legion and one for chaos renegades. So Slow and purposeful 3++ Tzeentch Termies with AP2 Reaper autocannons are a go. (If you can stomach paying 60 ppm).

Here's the response from GW.
What? You chaos players want options? Nay. You'll get the generic, overpriced crap we serve you and you'll like it!
You want landraiders with options that make it more versatile and fit the fluff better? Not a chance.
You want 1Ksons that you don't have to be intellectually challenged to take? Forget it.
Khorne, the master of CC? Not on your life. They'll be one of your worst CC options like they should be.
Tzeentch, the master of magic? I laugh at you. We'll have the ones that directly channel the source of all psychic powers be the worst at it.
And don't start on drop pods.

Games Workshop
Because we hate chaos and those that play it.

Well, it's too late for CSM in 6th as there's about a 0% chance of GW fixing anything until they get redone, so here's my wishlist for 7th. I've assumed that 7th will largely be a phoned-in copy-paste job of the 6th ed codex since that seems to be GW's MO when it comes to CSM. I've also left out anything having to do with pts costs - I'm assuming that everything will be priced wrong since that seems to be GW's MO when it comes to everything. But here's what I'd like to see in the 7th ed codex to better reflect the fluff on the tabletop:

1. Dreadclaws.

2. Cult terminators.

3. Tzeentch should not have the worst psychic lore in the game. I know this would be breaking from a long proud tradition dating back to 3rd edition, but come on - this is getting ridiculous. TS aspiring sorcerers should be mastery level 2 - these guys are supposed to be some of the best psykers in the setting. At the very least Tzeentch sorcerers should have access to Divination.

4. VotLW should come with Legion rules. If GW wants us to field mixed warbands, fine. But at least let the legions be represented at the unit level. WB could get zealot - maybe make it synergize in some way the Dark Apostle. NL should get night vision and not have to accept challenges - mandatory challenges just don't fit with the character of the legion.

5. Daemon princes should not be required to take Daemon of _______. Perturabo, Lorgar and Acerbus are all "unmarked" daemon princes.

6. Icons should go back to working as teleport homers. And they should be able to give those benefits to daemon allies of the appropriate patron deity. Dark Apostles should give benefits to daemon reserve rolls. Which brings me to...

6. CSM should synergize with CD. It's absolutely ridiculous that CSM and CD are each others' only Battle Brothers yet their codices seem to go out of their way to eliminate any possible synergy between the two. I mean instead of making them Battle Brothers and then putting in a million special rules to make them function like Allies of Convenience, wouldn't it have just been easier to, oh I don't know, just make them Allies of Convenience?

7. Cultists should not be eliminated from the codex. The fact that they have no multi-part plastic kit and the codex only gives them the options that they come with out of the DV box makes me very wary. Mark my words, if they don't get a plastic kit next edition they will be gone from the codex. My biggest wish is to not see cultists disappear from the game. Again.

 Blacksails wrote:
Internal balance.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ShatteredBlade wrote:
I would have liked better options for Legions. Or at least warbands of former legions.

some sort of legion traits needs to be added. C:SM get their chapter tactics and ATSKNF for 1 point? There should be some reason to take CSM and if they arent going to have ATSKNF they should have pretty good legion traits.

9 traits for the 9 legions and 1 for new renegades.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:


5. Daemon princes should not be required to take Daemon of _______. Perturabo, Lorgar and Acerbus are all "unmarked" daemon princes.

Or allow them to take Daemon of Undivided, which would have some other bonus to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would have liked to have seen the sorcerers of each go have diffenent psykic disaplines they can take.

Unmarked
Bio Pyro Telep Telek

Tzeench
Divi Pyro Telek

Slannesh
Telep Telek Bio

Nurgle
Pyro Telep Bio


with more than 3 powers for the god specific ones as well.

I would also like to Include one rule back from 4th ed.

GIVE OUR DAEMON PRINCES ETERNAL WARRIOR BACK!!!

Im sorry but an immortal champion of the Warp can now be instant killed, because you know an immortal Champion of the Warp can be instant killed, unlike a Hive Tyrant (or many Tyranid MC) with Iron Arm can be eternal warrior, and with their LD they aren't gonna fail a lot of the time.

GW fix this!

DROP PODS!!!!!

Also letting Thousand Sons deep strike would be cool, since they do that in the books. And since Ahriman has master of deception.... Surely that would fit the fluff and make use of their over-costed price.

I actually like the book these days, but since I've been going up against Tau a lot, I just can't get more than 2 figures into close combat...

And burn Mutilators. they're complete pish. Even if you made them units of 5 they'd still be worse than a unit of termies. Heck, make them a champion or an upgrade of a terminator and they'd actually see some use.

We're one of the best CC armies, but we just can't get to the other side of the board.

And that challenge rule just stinks.

Oh and yes, default Zerkers with chainaxes, because there's absolutely no benefit in taking them these days. Might as well just run vanilla marines with the MoK, at least you get to shoot once en route to mid table.death.

 Grumzimus wrote:
DROP PODS!!!!!

Also letting Thousand Sons deep strike would be cool, since they do that in the books. And since Ahriman has master of deception.... Surely that would fit the fluff and make use of their over-costed price.

I actually like the book these days, but since I've been going up against Tau a lot, I just can't get more than 2 figures into close combat...

And burn Mutilators. they're complete pish. Even if you made them units of 5 they'd still be worse than a unit of termies. Heck, make them a champion or an upgrade of a terminator and they'd actually see some use.

We're one of the best CC armies, but we just can't get to the other side of the board.

And that challenge rule just stinks.

Oh and yes, default Zerkers with chainaxes, because there's absolutely no benefit in taking them these days. Might as well just run vanilla marines with the MoK, at least you get to shoot once en route to mid table.death.

That's a good idea actually, it would be wonderful to have mutated aspiring champions within leading squads.

In no particular order:

- Maneuver options. 1) Dreadclaws, 2) access to Infiltrate and Scout USRs with something other than one random Warlord Trait
and two Special Characters, 3) Icons that act as Deep Strike beacons ( you know, like they used to ).

- Legion traits ala Chapter tactics. Something that allows representing warbands of the old Legions ( Night Lords etc. ).

-Cult Terminators. Connected to the above.

- More artefacts and wargear. The current list boils down to "take the Axe or take the Burning Brand".

drop-pods, transport fliers, mark-based upgrades for vehicles and a clear-cut explanation of where a heldrake can and cannot fire (simply stating it's a 'turret' doesn't clarify anything, the heavy bolter with a 90 degree fire arc on the front of a landraider is a turret, as is a 360 degree leman russ).

All good points guys but surely GW issued a generic chaos book and will add little tidbits for each major legion with codex supplements. I'll lay odds there'll eventually be one for each of the big monocult legions: Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Thousand Sons.

Having said that though, given the almost complete lack of any new rules in the Iyanden codex I am not expecting great things...

Isengard wrote:
All good points guys but surely GW issued a generic chaos book and will add little tidbits for each major legion with codex supplements. I'll lay odds there'll eventually be one for each of the big monocult legions: Death Guard, Emperor's Children, World Eaters and Thousand Sons.

Having said that though, given the almost complete lack of any new rules in the Iyanden codex I am not expecting great things...

The problem is that the base book is flawed and really, really needs some things balanced out better.

For example unless the new thousand sons book makes Rubric Marines far, far better for their cost (maybe 2 wounds or immunity to S4 and below shooting), they'll still be horrible in just a different supplement.

So after hearing about BL Supplement, tbh I really don't think if we do get supplements in the future they are going to be just as much of a failure as BL and Iyanden codex supplements..

£35 (or something ridiculous along those prices) for an extra FOC slot and hand of darkness? sooo... im paying for nothing that changes our playstyle unlike the Farsight supplement (which is what all supplements should be aiming for imho) apart from two things which im sure is less than 2 pages? nah I think I will pass, thanks a bunch GW..

Land Raiders with hades autocannons/bale flamers/ectoplasma. Forgefiends with bale flamers (triple bale flamers gives me the chills) or blast masters.

More artifacts that can be used by ICs with other marks. No Slaaneshi artifact? No Nurgle artifact. Khorne gets a great one, and Tzeentch gets that thing no one ever uses. They can do better there.

I find it hard to believe that Chaos Marines don't have access to a single suit of artificer armor. Let's fix that.

Legion Tactics would be fantastic. At the very least, let the non-god legions get a FOC adjustment like the old days.

Chaos needs a new assault transport. Why not create a new daemon engine that can charge in and discharge its cargo through a massive, gaping maw? Give it a couple CC options, too. It would be fantastic if it could charge in, too.

 Blacksails wrote:
InFernal balance.

Corrected

I wished instead of the khorne mower, they could have made a demon primach kit

Well mainly just because I like cultists way too much I'd like to see a couple more options for them. Like being able to equip any cultist with a shotgun and not just the champion. Icons would be nice. I'd also like it if the champions had a few more options for them. We are planning on making rules and converting models for a cultist heavy weapons squad as a heavy support choice. Yes it will be a terrible and useless thing quite likely but we are doing it for fun.

 MWHistorian wrote:
Here's the response from GW.
What? You chaos players want options? Nay. You'll get the generic, overpriced crap we serve you and you'll like it!

This is so ludicrous it's fairly amusing.

The Chaos Marine Squad has 26 different options to it.

Even if you factor in all 8 "Chapter Traits" as options, the Tactical Squad only has 19 and they all end up with the same basic cookie cutter format. 1 sergeant, 1 special weapon, and 1 heavy weapon, and maxes out at half the size the Chaos Marine Squad. It has no options for BP/CCW. It has no option for double special weapons. It is literally a point sink.

The Chaos book is so overloaded with options, it's laughable that Chaos players whine about not having enough options.


Now, if the Chaos Marines themselves end up not being the most competitive build that comes out of the Chaos books, that's a different story. But there's a boatload of options in the Chaos book. It's essentially four Chaos Marine codex books rolled up into one. It's not like Codex: Blood Angels offers up some huge variety for Space Marines, lol. It only gets its own book because Space Marines sell so many models.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A-P wrote:
- Legion traits ala Chapter tactics. Something that allows representing warbands of the old Legions ( Night Lords etc. ).

The problem is, the Legions no longer exist.

This is a common error that many Chaos players make. It's a disconnect between what the Chaos players think the Chaos faction is, and what the Chaos faction actually is. Chaos Marines aren't supposed to be directly analogous to loyal Space Marines. Loyal Marines have the manufacturing capability of a vast interstellar empire behind them. The Imperium might be failing, but it's failing very slowly, and it's vast. Chaos Marines, on the other hand, get the boons and whims of supernatural forces. They are two entirely different armies, with just a superficial aesthetic in common, and an intertwined back story. But the modern Chaos Marine is one of two things. A Warp twisted lunatic who serves at the behest of some insidious greater power. Or, a bitter, dogged renegade waging a guerrilla war against the far larger and superior might of the Imperium. What is left of the Chaos Legions are splintered into countless warbands, often intermixed with followers of different gods, and Marines from different parent Legions. Their numbers get bolstered with recruits created with stolen or corrupted geneseed, and formed with debased processes and Chaos taint, and the bulk of the original Heresy era Marines have been killed or transcended to Demon status in the last 10,000 years.

The Space Marines have an giant, exhaustive book which is an authoritative tome on all things Space Marine, with the perfected processes for recruiting, indoctrinating, and training Marines, as well as countless and exhaustive studies on how to fight battles, written by the greatest military mind ever to live. They have Chapter Tactics because they have very long standing and entrenched ways of fighting and an exhaustive training regimen which ensures those skills are passed on to all Marines.

Chaos Marines have... whatever training it is that they decide to do. Remember, the Legions came from an inferior stock of Space Marines compared to the modern ones (small gene defficiencies excluded). The Marines of the Great Crusade were mass produced, with varying degrees of quality. Many of them weren't even actual Space Marines, but instead enhanced regular humans. When they lost at Terra, they were disorganized, scattered to the winds and hunted down. Before long, at least two of the Legions completely ceased to exist as an organized entity. And it isn't like it's gotten any better for them.

As a chaos player, how can you possibly think we have tons of options? You have a hard time deciding how to outfit your land raider or demon engines? You mull over wich transport to use to get your guys into close combat? You debate wich mark to give your oblits, termies or lord? Or lets get crazy, which cult troop are you going to use? Please.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also where do you get the idea that heresy era marines were inferior? Im calling BS on that. A couple individuals were inhanced humans, such as Kor Phearon and Luther, but those were the exceptions. I think you might be confusing thunder warriors and astartes. Last time i checked, my Word Bearers are still a legion with their own forge world.

The problem is, the Legions no longer exist.

This is a common error that many Chaos players make. It's a disconnect between what the Chaos players think the Chaos faction is, and what the Chaos faction actually is. Chaos Marines aren't supposed to be directly analogous to loyal Space Marines. Loyal Marines have the manufacturing capability of a vast interstellar empire behind them. The Imperium might be failing, but it's failing very slowly, and it's vast. Chaos Marines, on the other hand, get the boons and whims of supernatural forces. They are two entirely different armies, with just a superficial aesthetic in common, and an intertwined back story. But the modern Chaos Marine is one of two things. A Warp twisted lunatic who serves at the behest of some insidious greater power. Or, a bitter, dogged renegade waging a guerrilla war against the far larger and superior might of the Imperium. What is left of the Chaos Legions are splintered into countless warbands, often intermixed with followers of different gods, and Marines from different parent Legions. Their numbers get bolstered with recruits created with stolen or corrupted geneseed, and formed with debased processes and Chaos taint, and the bulk of the original Heresy era Marines have been killed or transcended to Demon status in the last 10,000 years.

Psst, don't tell the maker of the Black Legion Book, who explicitly refers to Angron and his World Eater Legion gearing up for the 13th crusade, not to mention other factions being referred to as legions still.

Oh and don't forget that Chaos has the Warp itself that provides weaponry for them, as well as the Dark Mechancius that provices it's legions with Titans and Weaponry. Did you think they just scrounge up whatever they can find? No! They actually have a manufacturing base where many of the upper levels have powerful worlds equivalent to forgeworld churning out daemonic weaponry and almighty machines of war for the Chaos, many of which are owned by the powerful chaos lords to churn out constantly, not to mention the daemonic planets owned by those of the Legions Daemonic Primarch.

Also, that legion's don't exist is a retcon that not even the story pays attention to at times, what with the Word bearers still running powerful hosts, the Iron Warriors still running in chapters equivalent to space marines, and many others still run in warbands hundreds to thousands strong. Easy enough to represent on the tabletop so to the point that not even having a legion is moot, they could just be called "Warbands" and it'd still be the same. Just give us the options!

Chaos Marines have... whatever training it is that they decide to do. Remember, the Legions came from an inferior stock of Space Marines compared to the modern ones (small gene defficiencies excluded). The Marines of the Great Crusade were mass produced, with varying degrees of quality

According to the process, it's actually only gotten worse for the space marines over time, generally the first few batches were imperfect but overall the Emporer got it right overtime considering that the same stock is what produced most of the space marines in general, and according to the rest it's a process that's only gotten worse overtime to the point where they need individual gene-seed to continue the process, whereas the emporer didn't need to harvest it from the space marines in the field. Now they have to in order to continue the process and it's only gotten worse.

Also CSM have the training they need to fight within the warp itself, to survive being stabbed in the back is something that every CSM will need to learn. They go through incursions by daemons, being warp-tainted, and generally become embolded by either the dark gods or their own prowess to survive either being killed by stray daemons, the warp itself, or each other. Or they are the masters of the legions before coming in with many years of experience over the space marine chapters, having survived the Horus Heresy itself. While they would not have the coordination of the Standard Space marines in most cases, they would have the individual prowess to beat their other brothers senseless.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Chaos Space Marines are like Space Marines except worse in every way. This is fluffy. Just be happy your power armor still gives you a 3+.

Cool story bro.

I think SM players forget that SM chapters are not legions...

For example the Chapter tactics or whatever they are called, these derived from the original legions then after the HH, they disbanded into chapters, same goes for CSM, CSM legions followed what their Primarch told them and their own speciality's, then they HH happened and quite a few Legions disbanded into warbands of the legion they disbanded, and the same goes for Chapters, they still follow their own Primarch's teachings but they divided into smaller groups called Chapters. Conclusion: Chapters are the equivalent to Warbands and vice versa (and whilst they may have different slight outlooks they both are still the equivalents of each other) so why do the SM chapters get all these tactics that gives each chapter (formally a legion) still get these awesome fluff rules that gives each chapter a distinct look, yet CSM do not?


I've seen this way too many times on Dakka and im just going to be blunt now, because tbh Im getting sick of SM players scream at CSM players over points that they don't know what they are talking about (as they don't understand what it is like being a CSM player). SM players just want to hog the limelight and shout down any CSM players who want viable diversity in their army, why? two reasons: A) They don't want their precious limelight stolen, or B) they took a Helldrake to the face, screamed OP and then shout down any CSM players because they lost to a couple of Helldrakes.

Take the above paragraph with a large quantity of salt as this is just my opinion.

Thanks to 1d4chan, havoc bikers.

 happygolucky wrote:
I think SM players forget that SM chapters are not legions...

For example the Chapter tactics or whatever they are called, these derived from the original legions then after the HH, they disbanded into chapters, same goes for CSM, CSM legions followed what their Primarch told them and their own speciality's, then they HH happened and quite a few Legions disbanded into warbands of the legion they disbanded, and the same goes for Chapters, they still follow their own Primarch's teachings but they divided into smaller groups called Chapters. Conclusion: Chapters are the equivalent to Warbands and vice versa (and whilst they may have different slight outlooks they both are still the equivalents of each other) so why do the SM chapters get all these tactics that gives each chapter (formally a legion) still get these awesome fluff rules that gives each chapter a distinct look, yet CSM do not?


I've seen this way too many times on Dakka and im just going to be blunt now, because tbh Im getting sick of SM players scream at CSM players over points that they don't know what they are talking about (as they don't understand what it is like being a CSM player). SM players just want to hog the limelight and shout down any CSM players who want viable diversity in their army, why? two reasons: A) They don't want their precious limelight stolen, or B) they took a Helldrake to the face, screamed OP and then shout down any CSM players because they lost to a couple of Helldrakes.

Take the above paragraph with a large quantity of salt as this is just my opinion.

To this I just have to say that I've never encountered this behaviour anywhere else than on the internet.

I'd kinda like to see a variant for the Land Raider.

Lol a Black Crusader. So I can fill it up with eight terminators and combi melta the living feth out of stuff.

The biggest problem with Chaos is that GW's perception is that Chaos should be chaotic with lots of options for units which could be meshed together. This problem is that the the fluff emphasizes Chaos being made up of different LEGIONS and each LEGION has different composition and combat methodology. Most of the LEGIONS are a not chaotic mess like the GW's perception.

From a fundamental design concept, GW needs to drop any rule which says "roll a D6 prior to the game/combat/etc. to see what you get. The majority of your players HATE RANDOMNESS.

Bale flamers being AP4.

I want Noise Marine Dreads with blastmasters, Land Raiders with blastmasters, The 'possesed' vehicles not to kill my own embarked men, power of the machine deamon spirit, the possesed by a demon vehicle to have the demon special rule, Night Lords rules, Word bearers rules and Iron Warrior rules, non marked demon weapons,a couple more demon weapons, unmarked demon princes, A Night Lords special character (and iron warrios and word bearers as well - only I don't play those, so I'm not as fussed )

Oh, and AP2 Bale Flamers

DREADCLAWS!!!!!! WE NEEED DREADCLAWS!!!...

now serious, its a real pity to not have them... i'm rather ok with the rest, well... not the drake, the drake sucks, it should have been some sort of corrupted fighter-bomber..