41111
Post by: Daston
Hey guys,
I am currently reading through Battle of the Fang and a thought just struck me. The Space Wolves are so hell bent on killing Mangus that the Wolf Lord wants to take him down 1 on 1. Now from the fluff in the HH series Primarchs kill Astartes as easily as an Astarte kill's a normal man. So how come the Space Wolves are so confident in taking him down?
Is there any fluff of deamon Primarchs being defeted by normal Astartes? Or even normal Primarchs (if there are any that are not deamons).
30289
Post by: Omegus
Only Space Wolves can apparently kill Primarchs.
In every depiction of the Primarchs, they tear through swathes of regular Marines without skipping a beat (Corax, Kurze, Angron, Perturabo, Lorgar, Guilleman, etc. we see all of them just walking through squads of Marines).
In A Thousand Sons, they try to boss around Magnus, but reconsider when he loses his temper. In Fear to Tread, Russ sent a squad of Marines to "watch over" Sanguinius in case he turned traitor, and then they were somehow supposed to kill him. In Betrayer, a couple of squads surround Angron and supposedly put him in mortal peril. And as you pointed out, In Battle of the Fang, they think they can solo a Primarch, although in their defense, Magnus kept forgetting he was one.
45703
Post by: Lynata
Personally, I could maaaybe see it happen - and indeed it might not even have to be a Chapter Master or a Captain. However, the Daemon Primarch would have a significant advantage in that their physical form has been boosted by the power of the Warp, conferring superior strength, agility, and/or resilience. However, I maintain my interpretation that the weapon used in a fight is at least as crucial as the person wielding it, and supposedly Alpharius was almost gunned down by small arms fire of Horus and some bridge crew when he was found...
To me, there is no immunity against the weapons that would be utilised in such a confrontation, so the outcome of a duel, whilst heavily favouring the Daemon Primarch, would, to some portions, still rest on factors such as coincidence and sheer luck. Perhaps the Daemon Primarch was already wounded or is exhausted from a prior fight, all the way up to very unlikely happenings such as a flick of ash being blown into the Primarch's eyes just as its opponent strikes. 
It should be noted that I am sticking to a much less romanticised interpretation of the setting, especially concerning the legends surrounding the Primarchs. I see the stories about them akin to the grand tales of Hercules or Jason - entertaining, epic stuff, but ultimately just nothing you should take too seriously. Especially when the 6E Rulebook even points out for us that accounts of that era are mystified hype. 
I perceive the setting to be more grim and realistic if it is devoid of invulnerable demigods splitting mountains when they sneeze, and I generally prefer a somewhat lower "power level". That's merely a matter of taste, though. tl;dr, I think it depends mainly on what you want to see in a (Daemon) Primarch, and by extension the setting as a whole.
Is there any fluff of deamon Primarchs being defeted by normal Astartes?
Angron in the First War of Armageddon.
Or even normal Primarchs (if there are any that are not deamons).
Rogal Dorn was killed storming the bridge of a random Chaos battlecruiser. Details about the fight have unfortunately been left out of the original material, but we can probably assume the likelyhood of another Daemon Primarch popping into reality just to challenge Dorn the moment he enters the bridge is somewhat low.
44735
Post by: Greyish
Daston wrote:Hey guys, Is there any fluff of deamon Primarchs being defeted by normal Astartes?
Not suggest that the Marine in question is 'normal' but I take it you've never stumbled on the exquisite piece of prose known as 'The Battle of Kornovin'? 
Also, as Omegus suggested; Space Wolves, any of them (apparently).
 Lynata wrote:It should be noted that I am sticking to a much less romanticised interpretation of the setting, especially concerning the legends surrounding the Primarchs. I see the stories about them akin to the grand tales of Hercules or Jason - entertaining, epic stuff, but ultimately just nothing you should take too seriously. Especially when the 6E Rulebook even points out for us that accounts of that era are mystified hype.
Share similar sentiments, which often makes me feel like an endangered species when talking about Primarchs on these boards.
75727
Post by: sing your life
Only if said Marine is a Grey Knight .
77533
Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
Not in a billion million years.
It's the equivalent of a sphinx cat with epilepsy and hemophilia winning against a bull African elephant covered in Kevlar armor, and trained by Bruce Lee.
@Lynata
Doesn't change facts. It's a historical fact of the setting that Magnus personally fought against another primarch, an entire marine legion, millions of imperial army, Adeptus Custodes led by Valdor, and an elite anti psyker unit.
They wouldn't idolize a "traitor".
Yep....
45703
Post by: Lynata
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Doesn't change facts. It's a historical fact of the setting that Magnus personally fought against another primarch, an entire marine legion, millions of imperial army, Adeptus Custodes led by Valdor, and an elite anti psyker unit.
"Only those who witnessed those distant days will ever truly know what happened upon Prospero when the Space Wolves attacked, as extant accounts often contradict each other dramatically. The epic, 'Prospero's Lament', describes a lengthy orbital bombardment by the Space Wolves, followed by a systematic campaign across the planet that took many days and nights, with a death toll of horrific proportions on both sides. On the other hand, one of the Space Wolves' strongest oral accounts of the battle, The Edda of the Hammer', asserts the Space Wolves took the Thousand Sons completely by surprise. The Space Wolves fell upon the City of Light from above (as Magnus had, so many years before) and reduced it in one terrible, bloody night of violence and carnage. The single night of burning libraries, crashing towers and feral mayhem is a potent image and the action described in the Edda matches the popular image of the Space Wolves. But the Edda is oft-criticised; for how could a planet of sorcerers, able to see across time and space and into the future, be so completely surprised as to face destruction in the course of a single night? How indeed, unless the dark powers which granted them their visions did not mean for them to see? However it occurred, the sack of Prospero was the ultimate horror for the scholarly Thousand Sons, as Russ and his Space Wolves smashed their way through the sanctuary of the City of Light. Russ's warriors built pyres from Magnus's libraries of books, parchments and ancient texts, destroying artifacts unique in all the galaxy with a stroke of the chainsword. Though they differ in their specifics, most accounts suggest Magnus himself met Leman Russ in hand-to-hand combat, Primarch against Primarch, berserker against giant in the ruined heart of the City. The War of the Giants', committed to print by Inquisitor Bastalek Grim from Space Wolf oral tradition, describes the titanic duel that followed:
'Magnus the Red did take to the field of battle, causing the ravaged ground to liquefy 'neath his mighty stride. Russ charged bodily the crimson behemoth and did lift the Cyclops off the ground, The Wolf-King broke the back of the Cyclops, and the last Thousand Sons, seeing their Primarch broken and cast down, did turn and flee. But as Russ raised Frostblade Mjalnar to deliver the killing blow, Magnus spoke a word ot power, and did sink away into the iridescent ground.'
In accounting what took place at the last, claims of what occurred on Prospero's final night contradict wildly. Somehow, in the City of Light's dying moments, Magnus cheated Russ of total victory, and in so doing, paid the very price the Emperor had warned him against all along."
- WD #267 : Index Astartes, The Thousand Sons
You take your "historical facts", I stick to regarding it as myths and legends. 
And really, exaggerating the combat prowess of a beaten foe is and always was tantamount to idolising the victor, as it makes the winner seem even stronger.
Or do you really believe that 300 Spartans fought 1.000.000 Persians?
Really. "Oral tradition", from people who are essentially space vikings. Of course those would never boast or exaggerate anything ... 
77533
Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
Lynata wrote:TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Doesn't change facts. It's a historical fact of the setting that Magnus personally fought against another primarch, an entire marine legion, millions of imperial army, Adeptus Custodes led by Valdor, and an elite anti psyker unit.
"Only those who witnessed those distant days will ever truly know what happened upon Prospero when the Space Wolves attacked, as extant accounts often contradict each other dramatically. The epic, 'Prospero's Lament', describes a lengthy orbital bombardment by the Space Wolves, followed by a systematic campaign across the planet that took many days and nights, with a death toll of horrific proportions on both sides. On the other hand, one of the Space Wolves' strongest oral accounts of the battle, The Edda of the Hammer', asserts the Space Wolves took the Thousand Sons completely by surprise. The Space Wolves fell upon the City of Light from above (as Magnus had, so many years before) and reduced it in one terrible, bloody night of violence and carnage. The single night of burning libraries, crashing towers and feral mayhem is a potent image and the action described in the Edda matches the popular image of the Space Wolves. But the Edda is oft-criticised; for how could a planet of sorcerers, able to see across time and space and into the future, be so completely surprised as to face destruction in the course of a single night? How indeed, unless the dark powers which granted them their visions did not mean for them to see? However it occurred, the sack of Prospero was the ultimate horror for the scholarly Thousand Sons, as Russ and his Space Wolves smashed their way through the sanctuary of the City of Light. Russ's warriors built pyres from Magnus's libraries of books, parchments and ancient texts, destroying artifacts unique in all the galaxy with a stroke of the chainsword. Though they differ in their specifics, most accounts suggest Magnus himself met Leman Russ in hand-to-hand combat, Primarch against Primarch, berserker against giant in the ruined heart of the City. The War of the Giants', committed to print by Inquisitor Bastalek Grim from Space Wolf oral tradition, describes the titanic duel that followed:
'Magnus the Red did take to the field of battle, causing the ravaged ground to liquefy 'neath his mighty stride. Russ charged bodily the crimson behemoth and did lift the Cyclops off the ground, The Wolf-King broke the back of the Cyclops, and the last Thousand Sons, seeing their Primarch broken and cast down, did turn and flee. But as Russ raised Frostblade Mjalnar to deliver the killing blow, Magnus spoke a word ot power, and did sink away into the iridescent ground.'
In accounting what took place at the last, claims of what occurred on Prospero's final night contradict wildly. Somehow, in the City of Light's dying moments, Magnus cheated Russ of total victory, and in so doing, paid the very price the Emperor had warned him against all along."
- WD #267 : Index Astartes, The Thousand Sons
You take your "historical facts", I stick to regarding it as myths and legends.
And really, exaggerating the combat prowess of a beaten foe is and always was tantamount to idolising the victor, as it makes the winner seem even stronger.
Or do you really believe that 300 Spartans fought 1.000.000 Persians?
Really. "Oral tradition", from people who are essentially space vikings. Of course those would never boast or exaggerate anything ...
The old 300 was a fight among humans......
It follows massively different rules than a fight between a godly superman and legions of augmented humans.
Did you actually just compare the two?
Also the Space puppies hate Magnus and this is straight from a Thousand Sons with Ahirman as the narrator.
73285
Post by: Savagecoyote
Really. "Oral tradition", from people who are essentially space vikings. Of course those would never boast or exaggerate anything ...
Space Wolves exaggerate never ! You impune us sir 
Also at the Battle of Prospero we only sent Three marines to kill all those Thousand Sons , no scratch that it was only Two and one of them was a Scout at that
75483
Post by: Imposter101
Due to the nature of authors and the nature of the books they have been written in, the levels of power displayed by the Primarch's varies and alters. This also has to depend on the location, the equipment of both factions, the specific Primarch and the skill of the Chapter Master. Let's remember that the Daemon Primarch Angron wiped out scores of Grey Knights on his own, killing five Grey Knight terminators with a single strike of his sword. While he did have a bodyguard of 12 Bloodthirsters, they were still facing one hundred and nine of the Imperium's daemon hunting veterans.
45703
Post by: Lynata
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:The old 300 was a fight among humans......
It follows massively different rules than a fight between a godly superman and legions of augmented humans.
Did you actually just compare the two?
Yes. What do you think Hercules was, if not the "godly superman" of his time?
As I said, I hold a much more pragmatic view of the setting, and indeed the possibility that much of what some people may claim is "true" may just be distorted myths and propaganda makes it feel all the more grim to me. In a way, the ongoing fight against the truth behind such legends, is an important thematic element as well - at least for me.
"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportion. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Magnus didn't forge the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?
One by one, they disappeared from the annals of history, the last of their kind reputedly disappearing by M32. Whether the many extraordinary, and sometimes contradictory accounts told about the Primarchs hold any truth or are just apocryphal tales, they are preserved in the lore of each Space Marine Chapter. Others are still remembered on the Primarchs' adopted home planets. Today, the Primarchs are worshipped like gods, and pilgrimages are made along the trails they blazed across the stars, often ending at tombs or great memorials, places of ancient history that hold revered relics of their bones or wargear. Many still insist that their Primarchs will arise again, in the Imperium's direst need, for a final battle."
- 6E BRB : The Primarchs, p. 186
PS:  @ Savagecoyote
77533
Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
 Imposter101 wrote:Due to the nature of authors and the nature of the books they have been written in, the levels of power displayed by the Primarch's varies and alters. This also has to depend on the location, the equipment of both factions, the specific Primarch and the skill of the Chapter Master. Let's remember that the Daemon Primarch Angron wiped out scores of Grey Knights on his own, killing five Grey Knight terminators with a single strike of his sword. While he did have a bodyguard of 12 Bloodthirsters, they were still facing one hundred and nine of the Imperium's daemon hunting veterans.
This
45703
Post by: Lynata
Yet if you truly want to believe those stories, then the final confrontation involved only Aurellian and a few survivors, the others having been cut down mostly by the Bloodletters (which apparently were "amplified" by Angron's presence).
http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m1390091a_WD278_C_Imperialis(Armageddon).pdf
To be fair, though, the example may not be appropriate anyways, given how it apparently required psychic powers to weaken Angron - and then to a point where anyone could have run him through...
If this is to be taken at face value, then perhaps only the Grey Knights and psychic Inquisitors would have a chance, but no "ordinary" Marine.
30289
Post by: Omegus
It's worth mentioning that Lynata does not read HH novels, so his version of the background is based on BRB/Codex material and Index Astartes articles. The novels take a decidedly less mythical approach to the storytelling, and present events straight up as "this is what happened" (continuity errors notwithstanding...looking at you McNeil).
As for Angron requiring a company of Grey Knights to defeat, Logan shrugged off the psychic powers of the same Grey Knight who shattered Angron's Black Sword and then insta-killed "the fastest Grey Knight Grandmaster ever" before the latter could even think about reaching for his swords. Obviously, Logan > Angron, and by extension, SW>Primarch. The reason Russ left is because he realized he was just holding his Legion back when he lost an arm-wrestling match to a wet-behind-the-ears Blood Claw.
64143
Post by: En Excelsis
I also have no love for the 40k Novels. What few of them I have read to completion gave such am impression that I will not waste time reading more of them. This is a perfectly valid opinion and I don't think it is fair of you to disparage Lynata for having the good sense to avoid bad literature. There are plenty of other entertaining sources for background fluff in 40k. Ironically, Lynata and I have gone back and forth in previous threads regarding this very topic. Neither one of us likely to persuade the other, but since neither of us is really "wrong" than it makes little difference. She is quite right to recall that the stories and legends are very old indeed and since no factual account of the events exists we can never know with certainty what happened. It may well be all myths and legends. But just as likely it is a true recounting of events. No one knows and we as the readers are intended to choose for ourselves which outcome we enjoy most. I won't make any arguments about which is more likely since that sort of logic simply doesn't apply in a science-fantasy setting, but I certainly know which version is more entertaining to me.
76809
Post by: Mezmerro
Lynata wrote:Magnus cheated Russ of total victory, and in so doing, paid the very price the Emperor had warned him against all along."[/i] - WD #267 : Index Astartes, The Thousand Sons
And this is a major problem with fluff authors - fist they state primarchs could survive ridiculous things like being eviscerated, boiled in plasma fire, burried under the tons of concrete, lose part of their god damned head or having powers sword stuck in their spine, and then Magnus dies to some silly thing like a broken back and Alpharius dies from a single power sword swing (OK, the last one is TOTALLY an AL disinformation, but yet Imperium tend to believe in it).
43032
Post by: King Pariah
 TheSaintofKilllers wrote: Lynata wrote:TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Doesn't change facts. It's a historical fact of the setting that Magnus personally fought against another primarch, an entire marine legion, millions of imperial army, Adeptus Custodes led by Valdor, and an elite anti psyker unit.
"Only those who witnessed those distant days will ever truly know what happened upon Prospero when the Space Wolves attacked, as extant accounts often contradict each other dramatically. The epic, 'Prospero's Lament', describes a lengthy orbital bombardment by the Space Wolves, followed by a systematic campaign across the planet that took many days and nights, with a death toll of horrific proportions on both sides. On the other hand, one of the Space Wolves' strongest oral accounts of the battle, The Edda of the Hammer', asserts the Space Wolves took the Thousand Sons completely by surprise. The Space Wolves fell upon the City of Light from above (as Magnus had, so many years before) and reduced it in one terrible, bloody night of violence and carnage. The single night of burning libraries, crashing towers and feral mayhem is a potent image and the action described in the Edda matches the popular image of the Space Wolves. But the Edda is oft-criticised; for how could a planet of sorcerers, able to see across time and space and into the future, be so completely surprised as to face destruction in the course of a single night? How indeed, unless the dark powers which granted them their visions did not mean for them to see? However it occurred, the sack of Prospero was the ultimate horror for the scholarly Thousand Sons, as Russ and his Space Wolves smashed their way through the sanctuary of the City of Light. Russ's warriors built pyres from Magnus's libraries of books, parchments and ancient texts, destroying artifacts unique in all the galaxy with a stroke of the chainsword. Though they differ in their specifics, most accounts suggest Magnus himself met Leman Russ in hand-to-hand combat, Primarch against Primarch, berserker against giant in the ruined heart of the City. The War of the Giants', committed to print by Inquisitor Bastalek Grim from Space Wolf oral tradition, describes the titanic duel that followed:
'Magnus the Red did take to the field of battle, causing the ravaged ground to liquefy 'neath his mighty stride. Russ charged bodily the crimson behemoth and did lift the Cyclops off the ground, The Wolf-King broke the back of the Cyclops, and the last Thousand Sons, seeing their Primarch broken and cast down, did turn and flee. But as Russ raised Frostblade Mjalnar to deliver the killing blow, Magnus spoke a word ot power, and did sink away into the iridescent ground.'
In accounting what took place at the last, claims of what occurred on Prospero's final night contradict wildly. Somehow, in the City of Light's dying moments, Magnus cheated Russ of total victory, and in so doing, paid the very price the Emperor had warned him against all along."
- WD #267 : Index Astartes, The Thousand Sons
You take your "historical facts", I stick to regarding it as myths and legends.
And really, exaggerating the combat prowess of a beaten foe is and always was tantamount to idolising the victor, as it makes the winner seem even stronger.
Or do you really believe that 300 Spartans fought 1.000.000 Persians?
Really. "Oral tradition", from people who are essentially space vikings. Of course those would never boast or exaggerate anything ...
The old 300 was a fight among humans......
It follows massively different rules than a fight between a godly superman and legions of augmented humans.
Did you actually just compare the two?
Also the Space puppies hate Magnus and this is straight from a Thousand Sons with Ahirman as the narrator.
He does have a point though. Only in the final confrontation were there 300 Spartans facing the Persian army. Up until the end of the Battle of Thermopylae, there were 7,000 Greeks. In fact, at the final confrontation there were around 1,500 Greeks, 300 of which were Spartans.
And it is believe it was between 100,000-150,000 in the Persian army. Not 1,000,000.
77050
Post by: TheSGC
Yeah, the Battle of Thermopylae is sadly misrepresented in a lot of cases. It was a mix of lolwut on Xerxes part and holding a chokepoint against the lolwut tactics of the Persians.
77533
Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
 King Pariah wrote: TheSaintofKilllers wrote: Lynata wrote:TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Doesn't change facts. It's a historical fact of the setting that Magnus personally fought against another primarch, an entire marine legion, millions of imperial army, Adeptus Custodes led by Valdor, and an elite anti psyker unit.
"Only those who witnessed those distant days will ever truly know what happened upon Prospero when the Space Wolves attacked, as extant accounts often contradict each other dramatically. The epic, 'Prospero's Lament', describes a lengthy orbital bombardment by the Space Wolves, followed by a systematic campaign across the planet that took many days and nights, with a death toll of horrific proportions on both sides. On the other hand, one of the Space Wolves' strongest oral accounts of the battle, The Edda of the Hammer', asserts the Space Wolves took the Thousand Sons completely by surprise. The Space Wolves fell upon the City of Light from above (as Magnus had, so many years before) and reduced it in one terrible, bloody night of violence and carnage. The single night of burning libraries, crashing towers and feral mayhem is a potent image and the action described in the Edda matches the popular image of the Space Wolves. But the Edda is oft-criticised; for how could a planet of sorcerers, able to see across time and space and into the future, be so completely surprised as to face destruction in the course of a single night? How indeed, unless the dark powers which granted them their visions did not mean for them to see? However it occurred, the sack of Prospero was the ultimate horror for the scholarly Thousand Sons, as Russ and his Space Wolves smashed their way through the sanctuary of the City of Light. Russ's warriors built pyres from Magnus's libraries of books, parchments and ancient texts, destroying artifacts unique in all the galaxy with a stroke of the chainsword. Though they differ in their specifics, most accounts suggest Magnus himself met Leman Russ in hand-to-hand combat, Primarch against Primarch, berserker against giant in the ruined heart of the City. The War of the Giants', committed to print by Inquisitor Bastalek Grim from Space Wolf oral tradition, describes the titanic duel that followed:
'Magnus the Red did take to the field of battle, causing the ravaged ground to liquefy 'neath his mighty stride. Russ charged bodily the crimson behemoth and did lift the Cyclops off the ground, The Wolf-King broke the back of the Cyclops, and the last Thousand Sons, seeing their Primarch broken and cast down, did turn and flee. But as Russ raised Frostblade Mjalnar to deliver the killing blow, Magnus spoke a word ot power, and did sink away into the iridescent ground.'
In accounting what took place at the last, claims of what occurred on Prospero's final night contradict wildly. Somehow, in the City of Light's dying moments, Magnus cheated Russ of total victory, and in so doing, paid the very price the Emperor had warned him against all along."
- WD #267 : Index Astartes, The Thousand Sons
You take your "historical facts", I stick to regarding it as myths and legends.
And really, exaggerating the combat prowess of a beaten foe is and always was tantamount to idolising the victor, as it makes the winner seem even stronger.
Or do you really believe that 300 Spartans fought 1.000.000 Persians?
Really. "Oral tradition", from people who are essentially space vikings. Of course those would never boast or exaggerate anything ...
The old 300 was a fight among humans......
It follows massively different rules than a fight between a godly superman and legions of augmented humans.
Did you actually just compare the two?
Also the Space puppies hate Magnus and this is straight from a Thousand Sons with Ahirman as the narrator.
He does have a point though. Only in the final confrontation were there 300 Spartans facing the Persian army. Up until the end of the Battle of Thermopylae, there were 7,000 Greeks. In fact, at the final confrontation there were around 1,500 Greeks, 300 of which were Spartans.
And it is believe it was between 100,000-150,000 in the Persian army. Not 1,000,000.
My point was that humans can only be so much better than each other.
When a godly superman steps in, if he plays his cards right he might not get wounded.
45429
Post by: Iranna
Personally, I've always chosen to see the Primarchs on a much less romanticised level, much more akin the the Eldar Phoenix Lords in that, they are the paragons of each other's race and equal to one another (in terms of fluff anyway).
Obviously, Forge World and many other gamers don't share this view but I feel it's important to think of Primarchs as mortals who can be defeated, rather than superhuman demigods (As many HH books has demonstrated).
Essentially, a Daemon Primarch is going to be on the same level as the Daemon Lords, although there's always the old argument about who has more favour from their respective God mind you. There's fluff examples to support Space Marine Chapter Masters taking on and beating extremely powerful Daemons (Dante and Ka'Bandha comes to mind) so it's definitely not outside the realm of possibility for a Chapter Master to be able to do so. It is, however, rather improbable that one would be able to do so without a rather thick plot armour unfortunately.
Iranna.
77533
Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
 Iranna wrote:Personally, I've always chosen to see the Primarchs on a much less romanticised level, much more akin the the Eldar Phoenix Lords in that, they are the paragons of each other's race and equal to one another (in terms of fluff anyway).
Obviously, Forge World and many other gamers don't share this view but I feel it's important to think of Primarchs as mortals who can be defeated, rather than superhuman demigods (As many HH books has demonstrated).
Essentially, a Daemon Primarch is going to be on the same level as the Daemon Lords, although there's always the old argument about who has more favour from their respective God mind you. There's fluff examples to support Space Marine Chapter Masters taking on and beating extremely powerful Daemons (Dante and Ka'Bandha comes to mind) so it's definitely not outside the realm of possibility for a Chapter Master to be able to do so. It is, however, rather improbable that one would be able to do so without a rather thick plot armour unfortunately.
Iranna.
You do know that if Magnus decided to expend all his power and lifeforce, he could incinerate large planets multiple times over? He's multitudes stronger than Malacdor who could move moons.
Phoenix lords and Primarchs are not equal...........
Here are my feelings on Tolkien elves in any medium http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li_kx3Jz_Ks (If you think I'm being diminuitive take a chill pill, and learn to take a joke)
45429
Post by: Iranna
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
You do know that if Magnus decided to expend all his power and lifeforce, he could incinerate large planets multiple times over? He's multitudes stronger than Malacdor who could move moons.
Phoenix lords and Primarchs are not equal...........
Here are my feelings on Tolkien elves in any medium http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Li_kx3Jz_Ks (If you think I'm being diminuitive take a chill pill, and learn to take a joke)
Perhaps it is you who needs a "chill pill", my good sir.
I never once said that they were equal. I said that I chose to interpret the fluff that way, I also said that the majority of sources disagree with me.
Also, if we're just going to throw out hyperbolic examples, Maugan Ra stood alone against an entire Tyranid attack and was victorious. He also plunged into the Eye of Terror and pulled out his Craftworld which had been stuck in the Warp for almost 10,000 years, again, single handedly.
Iranna.
45703
Post by: Lynata
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:My point was that humans can only be so much better than each other.
When a godly superman steps in, if he plays his cards right he might not get wounded.
But my point was that myth and legend can turn slightly superior men into vastly superior men.
Why should one assume that it doesn't work the same with Primarchs - especially when GW themselves point it out?
I intentionally treat any such accounts as questionable and ask myself how else something could have been explained - it's a fun exercise, actually! Take Mortarion's homeworld Barbarus, for example. What exactly were those overlords settling in the toxic highlands who preyed on the feudal human population, kidnapping villagers and turning them into stitched-together dead? Were they truly as mysterious and daemonic as the retelling makes them out, or were they perhaps rather just uncaring scientists that managed to retain their technology from the early colonisation of the planet? Were they Chaos sorcerers, or xenos? If they were not human, why would one of them take Mortarion as an adopted son? So many questions, so many possible answers ...
... much more entertaining than simply taking everything at face value and turning the entire setting into a Hercules-like parody where technology becomes less important than the fantastic, at least to me.
Ultimately it remains a question of personal taste and preferences. I just stick by my earlier suggestion that this makes it much easier to explain how those "godly supermen" still managed to get themselves killed post-Heresy.
Iranna: Yeah, that's about my take as well.
KingPariah wrote:And it is believe it was between 100,000-150,000 in the Persian army. Not 1,000,000.
Isn't that the actual numbers? I was referring solely to the legend, which also tends to omit the assistance of the auxiliary forces entirely.
(although I'm operating from memory with the 1.000.000 - it has been years since I read that account, and most modern sources about this conflict stick to the "boring" facts )
77533
Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
Lynata wrote:TheSaintofKilllers wrote:My point was that humans can only be so much better than each other.
When a godly superman steps in, if he plays his cards right he might not get wounded.
But my point was that myth and legend can turn slightly superior men into vastly superior men.
Why should one assume that it doesn't work the same with Primarchs - especially when GW themselves point it out?
I intentionally treat any such accounts as questionable and ask myself how else something could have been explained - it's a fun exercise, actually! Take Mortarion's homeworld Barbarus, for example. What exactly were those overlords settling in the toxic highlands who preyed on the feudal human population, kidnapping villagers and turning them into stitched-together dead? Were they truly as mysterious and daemonic as the retelling makes them out, or were they perhaps rather just uncaring scientists that managed to retain their technology from the early colonisation of the planet? Were they Chaos sorcerers, or xenos? If they were not human, why would one of them take Mortarion as an adopted son? So many questions, so many possible answers ...
... much more entertaining than simply taking everything at face value and turning the entire setting into a Hercules-like parody where technology becomes less important than the fantastic, at least to me.
Ultimately it remains a question of personal taste and preferences. I just stick by my earlier suggestion that this makes it much easier to explain how those "godly supermen" still managed to get themselves killed post-Heresy.
Iranna: Yeah, that's about my take as well.
KingPariah wrote:And it is believe it was between 100,000-150,000 in the Persian army. Not 1,000,000.
Isn't that the actual numbers? I was referring solely to the legend, which also tends to omit the assistance of the auxiliary forces entirely.
(although I'm operating from memory with the 1.000.000 - it has been years since I read that account, and most modern sources about this conflict stick to the "boring" facts )
Most of the Primarchs are still alive and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.
The official description of the primarchs is the "energy of a star wrapped in flesh".
Just like you don't bring a knife to a gunfight, don't bring modern logic 38000 years in the future.
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Post by: motyak
and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.
Wrong. Very, very wrong I think 2 of the primarchs that have been killed so far have been killed by other primarchs, 1 by the emperor, and the other 2 by (very talented/numerous) randoms. Although to be fair one of those last two let it happen I think
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Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
 motyak wrote:and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.
Wrong. Very, very wrong
I think 2 of the primarchs that have been killed so far have been killed by other primarchs, 1 by the emperor, and the other 2 by (very talented/numerous) randoms. Although to be fair one of those last two let it happen I think
Fulgrim has a killcount of 2 primarchs by himself. (he killed manus, the spiritual liege may as well be dead)
The only one killed by anything normal was Curze who let the callidus kill him. Must of took a lot of stabs.........
The only other one was Dorn who we'll probably find out was killed by Daemon Angron or some gak.
You're the wrong one friend.
45703
Post by: Lynata
Demon-Angron, who just happens to pop up on a random cruiser's bridge just so he could kill Dorn. After Dorn's party already transmitted a "this will be our last fight" message because they were obviously so well-informed that the only thing in the galaxy that could possibly kill a Primarch would await them behind that door.
Do you really believe that?
Just like you don't bring a knife to a gunfight, don't bring modern logic 38000 years in the future.
When a Primarch can get injured by small arms fire, it doesn't really matter who's wielding the weapon. Unless your absence of "modern logic" includes bullets magically increasing in potency because they were fired by the hand of a genetically engineered being.
Also, there are many "official" descriptions of the Primarchs. You picked yours, I picked mine. And neither of us is wrong.
77533
Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
 Mezmerro wrote: Lynata wrote:Magnus cheated Russ of total victory, and in so doing, paid the very price the Emperor had warned him against all along."[/i]
- WD #267 : Index Astartes, The Thousand Sons
And this is a major problem with fluff authors - fist they state primarchs could survive ridiculous things like being eviscerated, boiled in plasma fire, burried under the tons of concrete, lose part of their god damned head or having powers sword stuck in their spine, and then Magnus dies to some silly thing like a broken back and Alpharius dies from a single power sword swing (OK, the last one is TOTALLY an AL disinformation, but yet Imperium tend to believe in it).
Didn't Magnus heal from that the nanosecond after when they were at the planet of the sorcerors?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lynata wrote:Demon-Angron, who just happens to pop up on a random cruiser's bridge just so he could kill Dorn. After Dorn's party already transmitted a "this will be our last fight" message because they were obviously so well-informed that the only thing in the galaxy that could possibly kill a Primarch would await them behind that door.
Do you really believe that?
Just like you don't bring a knife to a gunfight, don't bring modern logic 38000 years in the future.
When a Primarch can get injured by small arms fire, it doesn't really matter who's wielding the weapon. Unless your absence of "modern logic" includes bullets magically increasing in potency because they were fired by the hand of a genetically engineered being.
Also, there are many "official" descriptions of the Primarchs. You picked yours, I picked mine. And neither of us is wrong.
Are you saying it cant happen? Because it can......and something similar WILL happen for dramatic effect.
Plus it's within Post-ascension Angron's power to do that and he's always been spiteful.
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Post by: VensersRevenge
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: motyak wrote:and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.
Wrong. Very, very wrong
I think 2 of the primarchs that have been killed so far have been killed by other primarchs, 1 by the emperor, and the other 2 by (very talented/numerous) randoms. Although to be fair one of those last two let it happen I think
Fulgrim has a killcount of 2 primarchs by himself. (he killed manus, the spiritual liege may as well be dead)
The only one killed by anything normal was Curze who let the callidus kill him. Must of took a lot of stabs.........
The only other one was Dorn who we'll probably find out was killed by Daemon Angron or some gak.
You're the wrong one friend.
And Roboute Gulliman might have killed one of the twins.
45703
Post by: Lynata
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Are you saying it cant happen? Because it can......and something similar WILL happen for dramatic effect.
You mean that some Black Library novel could come up with something like that?
Of course that could happen. After Black Library Primarchs were shown to powerlift Titans and shrug off artillery-grade plasma cannon fire with a tan, pretty much anything is possible.
Fortunately, that doesn't really have any bearing on what the rulebooks, codices and WD articles say, though. Or my opinion on the whole debacle.
To me, the more interesting question would be why you think that this is preferrable to a somewhat more grounded and "realistic" approach. This isn't even on the same level as taking statements such as Primarchs carrying entire mountains across an ocean (!) at face value, it is approaching cartoon levels of silliness. Is this what you truly want for your interpretation of the setting?
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Post by: motyak
VensersRevenge wrote: TheSaintofKilllers wrote: motyak wrote:and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.
Wrong. Very, very wrong I think 2 of the primarchs that have been killed so far have been killed by other primarchs, 1 by the emperor, and the other 2 by (very talented/numerous) randoms. Although to be fair one of those last two let it happen I think
Fulgrim has a killcount of 2 primarchs by himself. (he killed manus, the spiritual liege may as well be dead) The only one killed by anything normal was Curze who let the callidus kill him. Must of took a lot of stabs......... The only other one was Dorn who we'll probably find out was killed by Daemon Angron or some gak. You're the wrong one friend.
And Roboute Gulliman might have killed one of the twins.
The operative word there being might. I choose to believe it was a random mook who bought it But then I've always had a soft spot for true loyalists like the Alpha Legion. And @SaintofKillers, you can make stuff up all you want in regards to Dorn, and there is no proof that Roboute is getting better or worse, and since he isn't dead then he hasn't been killed, and doesn't add to Fulgrim's tally. Leaving the split exactly as I put it. And you are doing exactly what another user used to do in these exact same discussions, inventing things and saying 'this will happen' with absolutely no grounds to stand on, then telling people they are totally wrong and you are right when you get called on it.
77533
Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
motyak wrote:VensersRevenge wrote: TheSaintofKilllers wrote: motyak wrote:and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.
Wrong. Very, very wrong
I think 2 of the primarchs that have been killed so far have been killed by other primarchs, 1 by the emperor, and the other 2 by (very talented/numerous) randoms. Although to be fair one of those last two let it happen I think
Fulgrim has a killcount of 2 primarchs by himself. (he killed manus, the spiritual liege may as well be dead)
The only one killed by anything normal was Curze who let the callidus kill him. Must of took a lot of stabs.........
The only other one was Dorn who we'll probably find out was killed by Daemon Angron or some gak.
You're the wrong one friend.
And Roboute Gulliman might have killed one of the twins.
The operative word there being might. I choose to believe it was a random mook who bought it But then I've always had a soft spot for true loyalists like the Alpha Legion.
And @SaintofKillers, you can make stuff up all you want in regards to Dorn, and there is no proof that Roboute is getting better or worse, and since he isn't dead then he hasn't been killed, and doesn't add to Fulgrim's tally. Leaving the split exactly as I put it. And you are doing exactly what another user used to do in these exact same discussions, inventing things and saying 'this will happen' with absolutely no grounds to stand on, then telling people they are totally wrong and you are right when you get called on it.
You told me I was totally wrong and I said you were totally wrong. Only difference is I'm smart enough to notice. I'm not making things up either, only thing there not 100% fact I'll guarantee you something similar will happen for dramatic effect.
I took college courses on writing, it'd be disappointing to everyone if they didn't do something akin to that. I have grounds
Point being when the heresy series has run it's course, not one primarch will have been killed by anything but another primarch.(Except Curze who basically committed seppuku) It's a prediction. Not making things up.
God forbid you make predictions for a book 3 years in the future, when you have credentials to do so with bits of accuracy.
In conclusion chill, and to any onlooker you're the one who came in calling someone "very, very wrong". Yeah......
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Post by: Void__Dragon
So I guess you consider Grey Knights normal Space Marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Daston wrote:Hey guys,
I am currently reading through Battle of the Fang and a thought just struck me. The Space Wolves are so hell bent on killing Mangus that the Wolf Lord wants to take him down 1 on 1. Now from the fluff in the HH series Primarchs kill Astartes as easily as an Astarte kill's a normal man. So how come the Space Wolves are so confident in taking him down?
Is there any fluff of deamon Primarchs being defeted by normal Astartes? Or even normal Primarchs (if there are any that are not deamons).
They can't kill Magnus, he is a Daemon, it is impossible for them to kill him.
It is however possible for them to banish him, and Magnus in particular is relatively easy to banish for a Primarch, because he so often forgets that he is one.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Omegus wrote:Only Space Wolves can apparently kill Primarchs.
In every depiction of the Primarchs, they tear through swathes of regular Marines without skipping a beat (Corax, Kurze, Angron, Perturabo, Lorgar, Guilleman, etc. we see all of them just walking through squads of Marines).
In A Thousand Sons, they try to boss around Magnus, but reconsider when he loses his temper. In Fear to Tread, Russ sent a squad of Marines to "watch over" Sanguinius in case he turned traitor, and then they were somehow supposed to kill him. In Betrayer, a couple of squads surround Angron and supposedly put him in mortal peril. And as you pointed out, In Battle of the Fang, they think they can solo a Primarch, although in their defense, Magnus kept forgetting he was one.
In Fear to Tread the only purpose the Space Wolves served were to be eaten by proto Flesh Tearers. Easily the best scene in the entire book.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Lynata wrote:
Of course that could happen. After Black Library Primarchs were shown to powerlift Titans and shrug off artillery-grade plasma cannon fire with a tan, pretty much anything is possible.
You haven't read either of those books.
Why pretend that you have just so you can mock them?
To me, the more interesting question would be why you think that this is preferrable to a somewhat more grounded and "realistic" approach. This isn't even on the same level as taking statements such as Primarchs carrying entire mountains across an ocean (!) at face value, it is approaching cartoon levels of silliness. Is this what you truly want for your interpretation of the setting?
Because 40k is not grounded or realistic. It's a Greek tragedy, relying on OP as feth characters doing ridiculous dumb gak in grandiose ways.
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Post by: Lynata
Void__Dragon wrote:So I guess you consider Grey Knights normal Space Marines.
As I said ->
Lynata wrote:To be fair, though, the example may not be appropriate anyways, given how it apparently required psychic powers to weaken Angron - and then to a point where anyone could have run him through...
If this is to be taken at face value, then perhaps only the Grey Knights and psychic Inquisitors would have a chance, but no "ordinary" Marine.
Of course, the same limitation would then apply to non-psychic Primarchs, hypothetically speaking.
Had this kill not required psychic ability, however? Yes, then I do think a Grey Knight would be no different from a normal Space Marine. Alas, the detailed circumstances of the conflict invalidated the example.
Void__Dragon wrote:You haven't read either of those books.
Why pretend that you have just so you can mock them?
I don't pretend. In fact, I've been rather open about avoiding them, as you surely must have noticed in another recent thread. I do, however, read forums such as dakka, and trust in the reviews of those who did check them out.
Why, are you saying that these things are untrue, or are you merely trying to chip away at my statements?
Void__Dragon wrote:Because 40k is not grounded or realistic. It's a Greek tragedy, relying on OP as feth characters doing ridiculous dumb gak in grandiose ways.
To quote a wise man, "that's just, like, your opinion, man". I don't have much of a problem seeing the setting in a more grounded and realistic way. Probably because the original material is more grounded and realistic - at least in comparison. Like I wrote earlier, I suppose it depends on the source we've "grown up" with, and as much as you may prefer the Black Library version of the Horus Heresy with its "ridiculous dumb gak in grandiose ways", that world just feels utterly alien to me and breaks my suspension of disbelief in a way that the vast majority of GW's own stuff does not.
Fortunately, the way the franchise is handled allows each of us to stick with what we prefer. Unfortunately, this also means that debates such as these are unlikely to ever cease, as opinions and preferences will continue to clash. That is the price we have to pay for this liberty.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
A Chapter Master might be able to defeat to defeat a Daemon Primarch if they brought their chapter along with them for the fight.
One on one, well, consider that Calgar only barely survived his encounter with the Swarmlord by force feeding it with his honour guard while he ran away. Now consider that a Daemon Primarch would be much more powerful than the Swarmlord.
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Post by: Mezmerro
You've must be kidding. The only source of the "Marny killing Alpharius" is the inquisitor Cravin report, and mind you Cravin get missed shortly after this report and is suspected to be AL agent. No Macrage, nor Terra archives have any mentions about Escrador war. This is such an obvious fake that I always winder how do people ever believe in it. Automatically Appended Next Post:  PrinceRaven wrote:One on one, well, consider that Calgar only barely survived his encounter with the Swarmlord by force feeding it with his honour guard while he ran away.
1) Marny was to busy dying to run away - he was dragged unconcious.
2) While the Swarmlord is a horrible close combat monster, he defeeats Mrny through cunning tactic rather than brute force (which is acrually more impressive). If not the Swarmlord trickery, Kalgar would fight with his honor guard squad, like any reasonable chapter master should, instead of being forced to face towering alien rape machine on his own.
3) During the Bloodborn invasion Marny had a hard time fighting M'Kar even with having Ventrys and Honor guard on his side - and M'Kar is a biggest failure amongst the deamon princes. And Daemon Primarchs are wey, WAY more powerful than ordinary DPs.
69849
Post by: PrinceRaven
Mezmerro wrote: PrinceRaven wrote:One on one, well, consider that Calgar only barely survived his encounter with the Swarmlord by force feeding it with his honour guard while he ran away.
1) Marny was to busy dying to run away - he was dragged unconcious.
2) While the Swarmlord is a horrible close combat monster, he defeeats Mrny through cunning tactic rather than brute force (which is acrually more impressive). If not the Swarmlord trickery, Kalgar would fight with his honor guard squad, like any reasonable chapter master should, instead of being forced to face towering alien rape machine on his own.
3) During the Bloodborn invasion Marny had a hard time fighting M'Kar even with having Ventrys and Honor guard on his side - and M'Kar is a biggest failure amongst the deamon princes. And Daemon Primarchs are wey, WAY more powerful than ordinary DPs.
True, I was just trying to reduce the utter failure and humiliation so I wouldn't get swarmed by butthurt tau-loving ultrasmurf fanboys.
Also, the Swamlord defeated Calgar in both tactics and brute force, using tactics to get into combat with him and brute force to beat the s*** out of him.
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Post by: Spartan089
In before Draigo defeating Mortarion cries
45234
Post by: Void__Dragon
Lynata wrote:Of course, the same limitation would then apply to non-psychic Primarchs, hypothetically speaking.
Had this kill not required psychic ability, however? Yes, then I do think a Grey Knight would be no different from a normal Space Marine. Alas, the detailed circumstances of the conflict invalidated the example.
All Grey Knights use their psychic abilities at all times when fighting Daemons. The Aegis never falls.
I don't pretend. In fact, I've been rather open about avoiding them, as you surely must have noticed in another recent thread. I do, however, read forums such as dakka, and trust in the reviews of those who did check them out.
Why, are you saying that these things are untrue, or are you merely trying to chip away at my statements?
Yes, I name all who have informed you liars and charlatans, exaggerating what they read because it rustled their jimmies.
Angron stopped and held a Warhound Titan, that much is true. His body was also breaking in the attempt.
Lorgar was hit by a Plasma Blast Gun and was badly wounded, and IIRC had to employ his psychic powers to heal himself to continue fighting.
To quote a wise man, "that's just, like, your opinion, man". I don't have much of a problem seeing the setting in a more grounded and realistic way. Probably because the original material is more grounded and realistic - at least in comparison. Like I wrote earlier, I suppose it depends on the source we've "grown up" with, and as much as you may prefer the Black Library version of the Horus Heresy with its "ridiculous dumb gak in grandiose ways", that world just feels utterly alien to me and breaks my suspension of disbelief in a way that the vast majority of GW's own stuff does not.
Fortunately, the way the franchise is handled allows each of us to stick with what we prefer. Unfortunately, this also means that debates such as these are unlikely to ever cease, as opinions and preferences will continue to clash. That is the price we have to pay for this liberty.
I truly can not fathom how you can say that. Your opinion of what constitutes as "grounded and realistic" is apparently entirely different from my own.
The original material? Original as in codex, or literally 1e? If the latter, it introduced an entire army of pub-brawling barbarians who start solar system-wide parties and fight by running up in big hordes and punching the gak out of things until they die. The setting was conceived as an over the top grimdark parody.
If the codices in general, then you have such fluff excerpts as a single Ork biker riding his bike through the Void Shields of a Titan and into its cockpit, you have sole Marines holding back entire Ork invasions by themselves, or a single Phoenix Lord beating a Tyranid invasion single-handedly. You have some fat guy who runs around the Warp solo'ing the Realms of Chaos alone and unaided, you have Marines shrugging off planetary bombardment weaponry due to the durability of their powered armour. You have Carnifexes that tear Wraithbone spires taller than any real life building in half, and the Space Marines who kill them in martial combat.
The codex fluff is not grounded or realistic. Automatically Appended Next Post: Mezmerro wrote:
You've must be kidding. The only source of the "Marny killing Alpharius" is the inquisitor Cravin report, and mind you Cravin get missed shortly after this report and is suspected to be AL agent. No Macrage, nor Terra archives have any mentions about Escrador war. This is such an obvious fake that I always winder how do people ever believe in it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
PrinceRaven wrote:One on one, well, consider that Calgar only barely survived his encounter with the Swarmlord by force feeding it with his honour guard while he ran away.
1) Marny was to busy dying to run away - he was dragged unconcious.
2) While the Swarmlord is a horrible close combat monster, he defeeats Mrny through cunning tactic rather than brute force (which is acrually more impressive). If not the Swarmlord trickery, Kalgar would fight with his honor guard squad, like any reasonable chapter master should, instead of being forced to face towering alien rape machine on his own.
3) During the Bloodborn invasion Marny had a hard time fighting M'Kar even with having Ventrys and Honor guard on his side - and M'Kar is a biggest failure amongst the deamon princes. And Daemon Primarchs are wey, WAY more powerful than ordinary DPs.
Roboute Guilliman and Marneus Calgar are not the same person.
57646
Post by: Kain
Daston wrote:Hey guys,
I am currently reading through Battle of the Fang and a thought just struck me. The Space Wolves are so hell bent on killing Mangus that the Wolf Lord wants to take him down 1 on 1. Now from the fluff in the HH series Primarchs kill Astartes as easily as an Astarte kill's a normal man. So how come the Space Wolves are so confident in taking him down?
Is there any fluff of deamon Primarchs being defeted by normal Astartes? Or even normal Primarchs (if there are any that are not deamons).
Angron in the end was felled by Grey Knights, though he and his bodyguard took plenty of them with him. Captain Aurelian was the one to banish him in the end after Hyperion shattered his Black Sword.
Angron presumably lost Gorefather somewhere on his Daemon world.
Lynata wrote:TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Are you saying it cant happen? Because it can......and something similar WILL happen for dramatic effect.
You mean that some Black Library novel could come up with something like that?
Of course that could happen. After Black Library Primarchs were shown to powerlift Titans and shrug off artillery-grade plasma cannon fire with a tan, pretty much anything is possible.
Fortunately, that doesn't really have any bearing on what the rulebooks, codices and WD articles say, though. Or my opinion on the whole debacle.
To me, the more interesting question would be why you think that this is preferrable to a somewhat more grounded and "realistic" approach. This isn't even on the same level as taking statements such as Primarchs carrying entire mountains across an ocean (!) at face value, it is approaching cartoon levels of silliness. Is this what you truly want for your interpretation of the setting?
As someone who reads comic books, that isn't really all that out there.
I mean, I regularly read about Thor who's powers Horse face (I know he's named Beta Ray Bill) over there explicitly matches exactly.
45703
Post by: Lynata
Void__Dragon wrote:All Grey Knights use their psychic abilities at all times when fighting Daemons. The Aegis never falls.
The Aegis is a defensive measure against corruption, though, not something that enables a kill when otherwise it would not be possible. By the same token we could deploy a bunch of Battle Sisters, seeing as their willpower apparently has a similar effect.
It's really not like Grey Knights or Inquisitors are the only ones fighting a daemon, and a Daemon Primarch is but a specific type of daemon, just like a Greater One.
Void__Dragon wrote:Angron stopped and held a Warhound Titan, that much is true. His body was also breaking in the attempt.
Lorgar was hit by a Plasma Blast Gun and was badly wounded, and IIRC had to employ his psychic powers to heal himself to continue fighting.
So both things did happen, and the internet merely applied the usual bit of exaggeration.
That doesn't really change the core statement then, does it? No-one should survive a plasma blast from a Titan. Not the way I see it, at least.
Void__Dragon wrote:The codex fluff is not grounded or realistic.
None of that is as ridiculous as people weathering plasma blasts that level entire buildings.
Also, now it is you who is "exaggerating what you read because it rustled your jimmies", for at least the incident with the orbital bombardment is something I have seen myself, and nowhere did it suggest that their armour could withstand direct hits. We've been over this before - check the source again and note how the Marines were inside a building. As such, they would "merely" have to cope with the debris and the floors coming down on them. Still quite a feat, obviously, but not as ludicrous as you make it out to be. If this were in a movie, I'd have no problem watching it. The above Primarch stories, on the other hand, are firmly in "superhero" territory, and superheroes just don't fit into my perception of 40k. That's really all there is to it.
Kain wrote:As someone who reads comic books, that isn't really all that out there.
Hey, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with superheroes per se - when the setting is designed to house them. I've read my share of Spiderman in my childhood, watched the X-Men cartoon, and recently was very entertained by the Avengers movie. I've even played a superhero in CO. And I might actually enjoy the Primarch things if they were their own thing instead of "invading" a setting that I perceive to belong to a different genre, so to say.
In a way, you could say I'm applying different expectations of reality to the various franchises. When watching the Avengers movie, I expect nothing but some good popcorn entertainment. When reading about 40k, I am analysing the factions, read up on the technology, and apply a requirement for things to "fit together" that would be unthinkable in a superhero comic setting.
50012
Post by: Crimson
Mezmerro wrote:
And this is a major problem with fluff authors - fist they state primarchs could survive ridiculous things like being eviscerated, boiled in plasma fire, burried under the tons of concrete, lose part of their god damned head or having powers sword stuck in their spine, and then Magnus dies to some silly thing like a broken back and Alpharius dies from a single power sword swing (OK, the last one is TOTALLY an AL disinformation, but yet Imperium tend to believe in it).
Which is a problem if you take these stories as historical accounts, but not a problem if you see them as myths and legends. Myths don't need to be realistic or consistent.
As for the actual topic, while I could see skilled and extremely lucky Marine defeating a Primarch (just like a skilled and lucky normal human could defeat a Marine), the Daemon Primarchs are an another matter. They are not only Primarchs, they are massively augmented by their daemonic powers as well. I cannot see a lone Marine ever banishing one (yes, not even Draigo!), It takes a small army of Marines to defeat a Daemon Primarch.
As for power levels, I really don't want 40K to be like superhero comics (well, except like Batman.)
57646
Post by: Kain
Lynata wrote:Void__Dragon wrote:All Grey Knights use their psychic abilities at all times when fighting Daemons. The Aegis never falls.
The Aegis is a defensive measure against corruption, though, not something that enables a kill when otherwise it would not be possible. By the same token we could deploy a bunch of Battle Sisters, seeing as their willpower apparently has a similar effect.
It's really not like Grey Knights or Inquisitors are the only ones fighting a daemon, and a Daemon Primarch is but a specific type of daemon, just like a Greater One.
Void__Dragon wrote:Angron stopped and held a Warhound Titan, that much is true. His body was also breaking in the attempt.
Lorgar was hit by a Plasma Blast Gun and was badly wounded, and IIRC had to employ his psychic powers to heal himself to continue fighting.
So both things did happen, and the internet merely applied the usual bit of exaggeration.
That doesn't really change the core statement then, does it? No-one should survive a plasma blast from a Titan. Not the way I see it, at least.
Void__Dragon wrote:The codex fluff is not grounded or realistic.
None of that is as ridiculous as people weathering plasma blasts that level entire buildings.
Also, now it is you who is "exaggerating what you read because it rustled your jimmies", for at least the incident with the orbital bombardment is something I have seen myself, and nowhere did it suggest that their armour could withstand direct hits. We've been over this before - check the source again and note how the Marines were inside a building. As such, they would "merely" have to cope with the debris and the floors coming down on them. Still quite a feat, obviously, but not as ludicrous as you make it out to be. If this were in a movie, I'd have no problem watching it. The above Primarch stories, on the other hand, are firmly in "superhero" territory, and superheroes just don't fit into my perception of 40k. That's really all there is to it.
Kain wrote:As someone who reads comic books, that isn't really all that out there.
Hey, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with superheroes per se - when the setting is designed to house them. I've read my share of Spiderman in my childhood, watched the X-Men cartoon, and recently was very entertained by the Avengers movie. I've even played a superhero in CO. And I might actually enjoy the Primarch things if they were their own thing instead of "invading" a setting that I perceive to belong to a different genre, so to say.
In a way, you could say I'm applying different expectations of reality to the various franchises. When watching the Avengers movie, I expect nothing but some good popcorn entertainment. When reading about 40k, I am analysing the factions, read up on the technology, and apply a requirement for things to "fit together" that would be unthinkable in a superhero comic setting.
Don't talk to me about CO...
It makes me miss CoX even more.
:(
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Post by: Melissia
If the author felt like his mary sue needed to.
73929
Post by: Animus
Yes, though it would require an exceptional individual and/or circumstances.
Calgar defeated the Swarmlord in single combat at Ichar IV, Dante (probably) bested Skarbrand, Ragnar beat Magnus by throwing a spear in his eye, Draigo humbled Mortarion, Hector Rex (almost a Space Marine ) defeated An'ggrath and Mephiston slapped Doombreed.
Calgar and Mephiston also beat M'kar, the same M'kar that Draigo struggled with seemingly more than Mortarion.
EDIT:
Oh, and the Sanguinor (maybe a Space Marine ) dropping Ka'Bandha of course.
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Post by: Kain
Animus wrote:Yes, though it would require an exceptional individual and/or circumstances.
Calgar defeated the Swarmlord in single combat at Ichar IV, Dante (probably) bested Skarbrand, Ragnar beat Magnus by throwing a spear in his eye, Draigo humbled Mortarion, Hector Rex (almost a Space Marine ) defeated An'ggrath and Mephiston slapped Doombreed.
Calgar and Mephiston also beat M'kar, the same M'kar that Draigo struggled with seemingly more than Mortarion.
Wut?
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Post by: PredaKhaine
Animus wrote:Yes, though it would require an exceptional individual and/or circumstances.
Calgar defeated the Swarmlord in single combat at Ichar IV, Dante (probably) bested Skarbrand, Ragnar beat Magnus by throwing a spear in his eye, Draigo humbled Mortarion, Hector Rex (almost a Space Marine ) defeated An'ggrath and Mephiston slapped Doombreed.
Calgar and Mephiston also beat M'kar, the same M'kar that Draigo struggled with seemingly more than Mortarion.
When did Mephiston fight Doombreed or M'kar - my minds gone blank
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Post by: Animus
Kain wrote:
Wut?
In a White Dwarf article, around the time the 5e Tyranids came out I think, I'm sure I've saved a picture of it somewhere.
PredaKhaine wrote:
When did Mephiston fight Doombreed or M'kar - my minds gone blank
He fought M'kar in the Blood Angel's codex, somewhere in the time line section I'm sure, with M'kar trying to corrupt him.
He fought Doombreed in Mephiston: Lord of Death. 
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Post by: PredaKhaine
Animus wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:
When did Mephiston fight Doombreed or M'kar - my minds gone blank
He fought M'kar in the Blood Angel's codex, somewhere in the time line section I'm sure, with M'kar trying to corrupt him.
He fought Doombreed in Mephiston: Lord of Death.
Cheers
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Post by: purplefood
Maybe but I'm not seeing it.
That said usually a Chapter Master wouldn't be dumb enough to do it without cheating a lot...
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Post by: Kain
Animus wrote:Kain wrote:
Wut?
In a White Dwarf article, around the time the 5e Tyranids came out I think, I'm sure I've saved a picture of it somewhere.
PredaKhaine wrote:
When did Mephiston fight Doombreed or M'kar - my minds gone blank
He fought M'kar in the Blood Angel's codex, somewhere in the time line section I'm sure, with M'kar trying to corrupt him.
He fought Doombreed in Mephiston: Lord of Death.
There is absolutely no mention of the Swarmlord being present on Ichar IV.
There is mention of the Swarmlord nearly killing Calgar and slaughtering his entire personal guard on Maccragge though.
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Post by: guidsgjg
People seem to love to overlook the unforgiven in these primarch discussions!
As far as a normal SM taking out a primarch? Luther vs Lion El'Johnson, Luther was somewhere between a normal human and a SM, he was too old or not a good enough candidate to get the full blown SM treatment. Granted, Luther got super boosted by the chaos gods to fight johnson, but in the course of the battle he "defeats" the Lion and lives through the ordeal himself.
But.... the lion lives and is simply in stasis waiting to return!
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Post by: LumenPraebeo
guidsgjg wrote:People seem to love to overlook the unforgiven in these primarch discussions!
As far as a normal SM taking out a primarch? Luther vs Lion El'Johnson, Luther was somewhere between a normal human and a SM, he was too old or not a good enough candidate to get the full blown SM treatment. Granted, Luther got super boosted by the chaos gods to fight johnson, but in the course of the battle he "defeats" the Lion and lives through the ordeal himself.
But.... the lion lives and is simply in stasis waiting to return!
Hm? Whats the relation here? Are you saying he defeated or didn't defeat the Lion? And whats your opinion? Do you think a Chapter Master or Captain has a small chance of being able to beat a Daemon Primarch in a fight?
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Post by: Animus
 Kain wrote:
There is absolutely no mention of the Swarmlord being present on Ichar IV.
Not that you knew of I suppose, but here's this, which I hope I'm allowed to post.
Kain wrote:
There is mention of the Swarmlord nearly killing Calgar and slaughtering his entire personal guard on Maccragge though.
Well Rocky didn't win his first fight against Apollo either.
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Post by: VensersRevenge
Mezmerro wrote:
You've must be kidding. The only source of the " Gulliman killing Alpharius" is the inquisitor Cravin report, and mind you Cravin get missed shortly after this report and is suspected to be AL agent. No Macrage, nor Terra archives have any mentions about Escrador war. This is such an obvious fake that I always winder how do people ever believe in it.
.
Notice the might. I never said I believed it. I simply said that he might have. That does not mean that I am joking or that I don't read fluff. It simply means I am open to the possibility that it might have happened.
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Post by: nobody
Kain wrote:Animus wrote:Kain wrote:
Wut?
In a White Dwarf article, around the time the 5e Tyranids came out I think, I'm sure I've saved a picture of it somewhere.
PredaKhaine wrote:
When did Mephiston fight Doombreed or M'kar - my minds gone blank
He fought M'kar in the Blood Angel's codex, somewhere in the time line section I'm sure, with M'kar trying to corrupt him.
He fought Doombreed in Mephiston: Lord of Death.
There is absolutely no mention of the Swarmlord being present on Ichar IV.
There is mention of the Swarmlord nearly killing Calgar and slaughtering his entire personal guard on Maccragge though.
The fight between Calgar and the Swarmlord on Ichar IV also appears in the new codex on page 29.
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Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
Animus wrote:Kain wrote:
Wut?
In a White Dwarf article, around the time the 5e Tyranids came out I think, I'm sure I've saved a picture of it somewhere.
PredaKhaine wrote:
When did Mephiston fight Doombreed or M'kar - my minds gone blank
He fought M'kar in the Blood Angel's codex, somewhere in the time line section I'm sure, with M'kar trying to corrupt him.
He fought Doombreed in Mephiston: Lord of Death.
Mephiston has no business dealing with Doombreed. They are on massively different levels.
Edward in power armor vs Genghis Khan as a Daemon Prince who's the 1st or 2nd most powerful servant of Khorne.
That gak is so stupid.
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Post by: Mezmerro
Animus wrote: Well Rocky didn't win his first fight against Apollo either.
It seems like those two are damned to fight each other forever. And i always wondered why Marny always shown with bionic eye, while fluff-wise he lost it (and all his limbs with a large part of guts) on 976.M41 (ironically by being nearly killed by the Swarmlord AGAIN)
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Post by: LoneLictor
Yes, but its very unlikely, and it depends heavily on the circumstances of the battle.
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Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
Mezmerro wrote:Animus wrote: Well Rocky didn't win his first fight against Apollo either.
It seems like those two are damned to fight each other forever.
And i always wondered why Marny always shown with bionic eye, while fluff-wise he lost it (and all his limbs with a large part of guts) on 976.M41 (ironically by being nearly killed by the Swarmlord AGAIN)
The Swarmlord probably enjoys repeatedly tearing THE "Mary Sue" new and varying donkey-caves.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
It says Calgar slayed the Swarmlord in single combat. However this is Imperial propaganda so I wouldn't be surprised if "single combat" meant blasting the Swarmlord with all the firepower he could and then walking up to his dead/dying body and punching it in the face.
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Post by: Redcruisair
PrinceRaven wrote:It says Calgar slayed the Swarmlord in single combat. However this is Imperial propaganda so I wouldn't be surprised if " single combat" meant blasting the Swarmlord with all the firepower he could and then walking up to his dead/dying body and punching it in the face.
As in using common sense in a fight? Nah that would simply be too good to be true, Clagar defeating the Swarmlord in 1vs1 is far more plausible than this franchise having but a single battle fought in a sensible way.
Anyhow let’s get back on track. I’d say that even a humble guardsman could theoretically stand a chance defeating a Primarch if the circumstances of the fight were right.
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Post by: Iranna
 Redcruisair wrote:
Anyhow let’s get back on track. I’d say that even a humble guardsman could theoretically stand a chance defeating a Primarch if the circumstances of the fight were right.
If the Primarch was already dead that is...
Iranna.
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Post by: Redcruisair
Iranna wrote: Redcruisair wrote:
Anyhow let’s get back on track. I’d say that even a humble guardsman could theoretically stand a chance defeating a Primarch if the circumstances of the fight were right.
If the Primarch was already dead that is...
Iranna.
Or if the Primarch was already on the verge of death, or if the guardsman had some kind of chaos weapon, or if the guardsman had some kind of sniper weapon, or if the guardsman secretly was a psyker, or if the guardsman was driving a dumb tank... you get the idea.
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Post by: TiamatRoar
The assassinorium thought they could take a primarch out with a vindicare. ...several times. Given that Horus used a decoy to deal with it, there's likely some truth to the possibility. A vindicare's a lot more specialized than a guardsman, though.
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Post by: Mezmerro
TiamatRoar wrote:The assassinorium thought they could take a primarch out with a vindicare. ...several times. Given that Horus used a decoy to deal with it, there's likely some truth to the possibility. A vindicare's a lot more specialized than a guardsman, though.
Vindicare is a terrible choice - deamon primarchs are daemons, and should have:
1) Deamonic invulnerability to resist exitus shots
2) True sight to ignore his camouflage
3) Cheatingly fast reaction to counter his evasion skills
Besides, this is what Culexus temple is for.
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Post by: Kain
Redcruisair wrote: PrinceRaven wrote:It says Calgar slayed the Swarmlord in single combat. However this is Imperial propaganda so I wouldn't be surprised if " single combat" meant blasting the Swarmlord with all the firepower he could and then walking up to his dead/dying body and punching it in the face.
As in using common sense in a fight? Nah that would simply be too good to be true, Clagar defeating the Swarmlord in 1vs1 is far more plausible than this franchise having but a single battle fought in a sensible way.
Anyhow let’s get back on track. I’d say that even a humble guardsman could theoretically stand a chance defeating a Primarch if the circumstances of the fight were right.
No more of a chance than a common thug has a chance of killing Superman.
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Post by: Redcruisair
Kain wrote: Redcruisair wrote: PrinceRaven wrote:It says Calgar slayed the Swarmlord in single combat. However this is Imperial propaganda so I wouldn't be surprised if " single combat" meant blasting the Swarmlord with all the firepower he could and then walking up to his dead/dying body and punching it in the face.
As in using common sense in a fight? Nah that would simply be too good to be true, Clagar defeating the Swarmlord in 1vs1 is far more plausible than this franchise having but a single battle fought in a sensible way.
Anyhow let’s get back on track. I’d say that even a humble guardsman could theoretically stand a chance defeating a Primarch if the circumstances of the fight were right.
No more of a chance than a common thug has a chance of killing Superman.
What if said thug had kryptonite on him?
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Post by: BrotherVord
motyak wrote:and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.
Wrong. Very, very wrong
I think 2 of the primarchs that have been killed so far have been killed by other primarchs, 1 by the emperor, and the other 2 by (very talented/numerous) randoms. Although to be fair one of those last two let it happen I think
Sanguinus - Horus
Guilleman - fulgrim
Ferris manus - fulgrim
I think we are at 3 confirmed, counting Roboutte because he's effectively dead
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Post by: Happyjew
Dorn is believed to have been slained during the 1st Black Crusade.
Konrad Curze was "assassinated" by a Callidus Assassin.
Sanguinius was killed by Horus.
Ferrus Manus killed by Fulgrim.
Horus is dead, utterly destroyed, mind, body and soul, by the Emperor.
Either Alpharius or Omegeon might be dead. But it's Alpha Legion so no one knows.
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Post by: motyak
BrotherVord wrote: motyak wrote:and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.
Wrong. Very, very wrong
I think 2 of the primarchs that have been killed so far have been killed by other primarchs, 1 by the emperor, and the other 2 by (very talented/numerous) randoms. Although to be fair one of those last two let it happen I think
Sanguinus - Horus
Guilleman - fulgrim
Ferris manus - fulgrim
I think we are at 3 confirmed, counting Roboutte because he's effectively dead
I don't get this line of thinking. Where is the line drawn then if we are going to say they 'count as' dead? Are the guys who disappeared into the most dangerous part of the galaxy dead as well? He isn't dead. He may be close, on the cusp even, but until he is actually dead, hes alive.
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Post by: Crimson
Kain wrote:
No more of a chance than a common thug has a chance of killing Superman.
No, just no. Superman can withstand a nuclear strike and move a moon. Primarchs shouldn't be like that, it would be just silly.
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Post by: Melissia
No, but they're still worlds above any modern space marine. They were all one of a kinds, uniquely powerful beings that were capable of doing miraculous deeds even on the day they were born unto the worlds that the Warp spat them out in.
Space Marine are but a shadow of the Primarchs that they were once descended from.
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Post by: Omegus
Lynata wrote:Void__Dragon wrote:You haven't read either of those books.
Why pretend that you have just so you can mock them?
I don't pretend. In fact, I've been rather open about avoiding them, as you surely must have noticed in another recent thread. I do, however, read forums such as dakka, and trust in the reviews of those who did check them out.
Why, are you saying that these things are untrue, or are you merely trying to chip away at my statements?
It doesn't take much to chip away at your statements, since 90% of their content is using GW's "no canon" policy to subtly disparage BL/ FW material, while promoting the "grounded and realistic studio material" that gives us the current Grey Knights Codex or anything with Space Wolves.
Angron stopped the descending foot of a Warhound titan, barely, and almost died doing it. Lorgar absorbed one plasma blast with a kine shield, which broke on the second blast and also melted half of his head off.
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Post by: KhornedBeef
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: motyak wrote:VensersRevenge wrote: TheSaintofKilllers wrote: motyak wrote:and the ones that were killed were killed by other primarchs.
Wrong. Very, very wrong
I think 2 of the primarchs that have been killed so far have been killed by other primarchs, 1 by the emperor, and the other 2 by (very talented/numerous) randoms. Although to be fair one of those last two let it happen I think
Fulgrim has a killcount of 2 primarchs by himself. (he killed manus, the spiritual liege may as well be dead)
The only one killed by anything normal was Curze who let the callidus kill him. Must of took a lot of stabs.........
The only other one was Dorn who we'll probably find out was killed by Daemon Angron or some gak.
You're the wrong one friend.
And Roboute Gulliman might have killed one of the twins.
The operative word there being might. I choose to believe it was a random mook who bought it But then I've always had a soft spot for true loyalists like the Alpha Legion.
And @SaintofKillers, you can make stuff up all you want in regards to Dorn, and there is no proof that Roboute is getting better or worse, and since he isn't dead then he hasn't been killed, and doesn't add to Fulgrim's tally. Leaving the split exactly as I put it. And you are doing exactly what another user used to do in these exact same discussions, inventing things and saying 'this will happen' with absolutely no grounds to stand on, then telling people they are totally wrong and you are right when you get called on it.
You told me I was totally wrong and I said you were totally wrong. Only difference is I'm smart enough to notice. I'm not making things up either, only thing there not 100% fact I'll guarantee you something similar will happen for dramatic effect.
I took college courses on writing, it'd be disappointing to everyone if they didn't do something akin to that. I have grounds
Point being when the heresy series has run it's course, not one primarch will have been killed by anything but another primarch.(Except Curze who basically committed seppuku) It's a prediction. Not making things up.
God forbid you make predictions for a book 3 years in the future, when you have credentials to do so with bits of accuracy.
In conclusion chill, and to any onlooker you're the one who came in calling someone "very, very wrong". Yeah......
Did you take "How to impress people with irrelevant facts I", too? Because in a rational discussion, if a statement about your person does not somehow show you expertise on the SUBJECT, it doesn't strengthen your argument. Having taken college courses, you probably know that. I'm also pretty sure that part of the problem is that, yes, predictions are made up things, after a fashion. Of course yo can predict things if they are governed by observable laws and you can even demonstrate your application of these laws. Bt in that case you should demonstrate that application for the sake of discussion, so that others can follow.. You're ofc right with the statement that after the Heresy, the status of all the primarchs will be they way it has been laid out before the novels were written (barring retcon). But that's not a prediction then.
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Post by: Lynata
Omegus wrote:It doesn't take much to chip away at your statements, since 90% of their content is using GW's "no canon" policy to subtly disparage BL/FW material, while promoting the "grounded and realistic studio material" that gives us the current Grey Knights Codex or anything with Space Wolves.
What exactly has canonicity to do with my low opinion on the various superheroics in the HH novels?
I know and, as you surely noticed, occasionally post on said "no canon" policy. That doesn't change anything on how I perceive those books.
Or about how that compares to any shenanigans in GW's own writings (which fall under the same legend/myth cop-out anyways).
Twist: Maybe Draigo only managed to best Mortarion because Primarchs aren't as awesome as HH novels portray them? Perhaps this would help some fans "digest" this admittedly somewhat fishy bit of fluff at least somewhat better.
Omegus wrote:Angron stopped the descending foot of a Warhound titan, barely, and almost died doing it. Lorgar absorbed one plasma blast with a kine shield, which broke on the second blast and also melted half of his head off.
So you're saying that a Primarch only needs half his head to live? I don't really see how that's better.
And stopping a Titan's foot is still redonkolous, regardless of whether you "almost" die doing so or not. What's next, throwing buildings?
My 2 cents.
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Post by: Kain
Redcruisair wrote: Kain wrote: Redcruisair wrote: PrinceRaven wrote:It says Calgar slayed the Swarmlord in single combat. However this is Imperial propaganda so I wouldn't be surprised if " single combat" meant blasting the Swarmlord with all the firepower he could and then walking up to his dead/dying body and punching it in the face.
As in using common sense in a fight? Nah that would simply be too good to be true, Clagar defeating the Swarmlord in 1vs1 is far more plausible than this franchise having but a single battle fought in a sensible way.
Anyhow let’s get back on track. I’d say that even a humble guardsman could theoretically stand a chance defeating a Primarch if the circumstances of the fight were right.
No more of a chance than a common thug has a chance of killing Superman.
What if said thug had kryptonite on him?
Superman can break every bone in your body faster than you can bring Kryptonite out of any container.
And even if you did have it, it doesn't weaken him enough to stop him from murking you.
And current Superman still has superpowers while exposed to Kryptonite, they're just lessened.
/Comic book nerd.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Crimson wrote: Kain wrote:
No more of a chance than a common thug has a chance of killing Superman.
No, just no. Superman can withstand a nuclear strike and move a moon. Primarchs shouldn't be like that, it would be just silly.
If by withstand you mean walk off without so much as one hair out of place and by move you mean smash into hard enough for the entire moon to instantly vaporize, then yes.
I honestly wouldn't mind 40k being able to play with top tier comic characters.
Heck I play strike legion which is like 40k on cocaine. There the not space marines have grenades that can destroy planets or replicate exterminatus via orbital bombardment by rolling down the windows and firing their weapons down at the planet.
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Post by: Redcruisair
Kain, calm down man, you are making a scene again. What superman (primarchs) can and can’t do, all depends on the writer’s interpretation of him (them). Some writers have superman soloing the universe itself, others have him losing to a Lex Luther armed with nothing else but kryptonite.
The things you say here:
Kain wrote:Superman can break every bone in your body faster than you can bring Kryptonite out of any container.
Kain wrote:And even if you did have it, it doesn't weaken him enough to stop him from murking you.
Kain wrote:And current Superman still has superpowers while exposed to Kryptonite, they're just lessened.
is just your opinion man, and not some gospel of truth we have to accept.
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Post by: Kain
Redcruisair wrote:Kain, calm down man, you are making a scene again. What superman (primarchs) can and can’t do, all depends on the writer’s interpretation of him (them). Some writers have superman soloing the universe itself, others have him losing to a Lex Luther armed with nothing else but kryptonite.
The things you say here:
Kain wrote:Superman can break every bone in your body faster than you can bring Kryptonite out of any container.
Kain wrote:And even if you did have it, it doesn't weaken him enough to stop him from murking you.
Kain wrote:And current Superman still has superpowers while exposed to Kryptonite, they're just lessened.
is just your opinion man, and not some gospel of truth we have to accept.
Pssh, you think I'm actually angry?
I'm just in Comic Book geek mode.
Although Thor's more of my main man than Supes.
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Post by: Redcruisair
Kain wrote: Redcruisair wrote:Kain, calm down man, you are making a scene again. What superman (primarchs) can and can’t do, all depends on the writer’s interpretation of him (them). Some writers have superman soloing the universe itself, others have him losing to a Lex Luther armed with nothing else but kryptonite.
The things you say here:
Kain wrote:Superman can break every bone in your body faster than you can bring Kryptonite out of any container.
Kain wrote:And even if you did have it, it doesn't weaken him enough to stop him from murking you.
Kain wrote:And current Superman still has superpowers while exposed to Kryptonite, they're just lessened.
is just your opinion man, and not some gospel of truth we have to accept.
Pssh, you think I'm actually angry?
I'm just in Comic Book geek mode.
Although Thor's more of my main man than Supes.
Nope just messing with you boi
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Post by: Kain
Redcruisair wrote: Kain wrote: Redcruisair wrote:Kain, calm down man, you are making a scene again. What superman (primarchs) can and can’t do, all depends on the writer’s interpretation of him (them). Some writers have superman soloing the universe itself, others have him losing to a Lex Luther armed with nothing else but kryptonite.
The things you say here:
Kain wrote:Superman can break every bone in your body faster than you can bring Kryptonite out of any container.
Kain wrote:And even if you did have it, it doesn't weaken him enough to stop him from murking you.
Kain wrote:And current Superman still has superpowers while exposed to Kryptonite, they're just lessened.
is just your opinion man, and not some gospel of truth we have to accept.
Pssh, you think I'm actually angry?
I'm just in Comic Book geek mode.
Although Thor's more of my main man than Supes.
Nope just messing with you boi
Son, I have two sons and a daughter.
Don't be calling me boy.
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Post by: Redcruisair
pffff as if, we are all kids on the inside.
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Post by: Kain
You're right....
The eldest two aren't even three yet anyway and I'm in my mid twenties.
>.>
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Post by: Void__Dragon
Lynata wrote:The Aegis is a defensive measure against corruption, though, not something that enables a kill when otherwise it would not be possible. By the same token we could deploy a bunch of Battle Sisters, seeing as their willpower apparently has a similar effect.
Actually no, the Aegis gives them an actual defense against Warp-spawned attacks and effects.
The Battle Sisters' willpower and devotion aren't going to save them from that chaos sorcerer spitting Warpflame from his nipples at her.
Also, every Grey Knight without question uses force weapons.
Why would a Grey Knight not use his psychic powers anyway?
It's really not like Grey Knights or Inquisitors are the only ones fighting a daemon, and a Daemon Primarch is but a specific type of daemon, just like a Greater One
A specific kind of Daemon that is one of the six most powerful Daemons in existence, yes.
So both things did happen, and the internet merely applied the usual bit of exaggeration.
Yes, both things happened exactly the way you were apparently told, as long as you take out all the lies inside.
That doesn't really change the core statement then, does it?
I guess you're right. "Lorgar was badly wounded and injured by a Plasma Blast Gun" isn't so different from "Lorgar deflected a Plasma Blast Gun with his rippling pecs, giving him a healthy tan".
No-one should survive a plasma blast from a Titan. Not the way I see it, at least.
Yet mere Carnifexes have survived the glassing of a planet. In the studio fluff.
None of that is as ridiculous as people weathering plasma blasts that level entire buildings.
No, actually, I am pretty sure a single dude running through Tzeentch's Infinite Labyrinth and then blasting the Inevitable City to rubble is considerably more over the top as weathering a city-destroying plasma blast. Nor is it more ridiculous than anything Maugan Ra has done.
Also, now it is you who is "exaggerating what you read because it rustled your jimmies", for at least the incident with the orbital bombardment is something I have seen myself, and nowhere did it suggest that their armour could withstand direct hits. We've been over this before - check the source again and note how the Marines were inside a building. As such, they would "merely" have to cope with the debris and the floors coming down on them. Still quite a feat, obviously, but not as ludicrous as you make it out to be. If this were in a movie, I'd have no problem watching it. The above Primarch stories, on the other hand, are firmly in "superhero" territory, and superheroes just don't fit into my perception of 40k. That's really all there is to it.
The text disagrees with you.
"Protected by their armour, the Grey Knights weather the storm of barrage bombs exploding amidst the ruins"
- Page 17
Also, in-game, these city-bombarding barrage bombs? They are S7, AP4.
Oh, and on the next page, the Invaders chapter withstands a psychic bomb that "rocks the planet on its axis" pretty well, whereas the guardsmen accompanying them were incinerated immediately.
Hey, don't get me wrong, I have no problem with superheroes per se - when the setting is designed to house them. I've read my share of Spiderman in my childhood, watched the X-Men cartoon, and recently was very entertained by the Avengers movie. I've even played a superhero in CO. And I might actually enjoy the Primarch things if they were their own thing instead of "invading" a setting that I perceive to belong to a different genre, so to say.
In a way, you could say I'm applying different expectations of reality to the various franchises. When watching the Avengers movie, I expect nothing but some good popcorn entertainment. When reading about 40k, I am analysing the factions, read up on the technology, and apply a requirement for things to "fit together" that would be unthinkable in a superhero comic setting.
40k is one of the softest science fiction settings out there though.
Also, for the "Primarch things", how do you explain them fighting and besting powerful Greater Daemons one on one, without them being superheroic douchebags?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just ask Batman how well Kryptonite bridged the different between him and Superman in Lex Luthor: Man of Steel.
Read: It didn't, and Batman was dragged halfway across Gotham on his own bat grapnel.
And anyway, Primarchs don't have specific, exploitable weaknesses like Superman. Automatically Appended Next Post: Omegus wrote:
It doesn't take much to chip away at your statements, since 90% of their content is using GW's "no canon" policy to subtly disparage BL/ FW material, while promoting the "grounded and realistic studio material" that gives us the current Grey Knights Codex or anything with Space Wolves.
Angron stopped the descending foot of a Warhound titan, barely, and almost died doing it. Lorgar absorbed one plasma blast with a kine shield, which broke on the second blast and also melted half of his head off.
It's funny, because as written by McNeill, Angron would have thrown that Warhound Titan off of him with one hand.
Betrayer's exploits are not even the most outstanding examples of Primarch power.
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Post by: Lynata
Void__Dragon wrote:Actually no, the Aegis gives them an actual defense against Warp-spawned attacks and effects.
The Battle Sisters' willpower and devotion aren't going to save them from that chaos sorcerer spitting Warpflame from his nipples at her.
Actually yes, that Battle Sister would be granted a 6+ saving roll against Warpflame because she has the Shield of Faith special rule.
Void__Dragon wrote:Also, every Grey Knight without question uses force weapons.
Why would a Grey Knight not use his psychic powers anyway?
Dunno. Perhaps because sometimes a bolter is sufficient and you don't even need to go into melee?
Void__Dragon wrote:A specific kind of Daemon that is one of the six most powerful Daemons in existence, yes.
Going by Angron's rules, he has the same Strength, the same Weapon Skill and the same Toughness as a Bloodthirster ... just requires one more Wound to be put down.
But perhaps you think the other Primarchs are stronger or tougher than Angron? It's not something I would necessarily agree with, but hey .. we all have our opinions.
Void__Dragon wrote:Yet mere Carnifexes have survived the glassing of a planet. In the studio fluff.
I don't see the problem as long as the Lance doesn't impact the Carnifex directly.
There is such a thing as "cover" - even from orbital bombardment.
Void__Dragon wrote:No, actually, I am pretty sure a single dude running through Tzeentch's Infinite Labyrinth and then blasting the Inevitable City to rubble is considerably more over the top as weathering a city-destroying plasma blast.
Not for me. Because that's the Warp, which operates under different laws of reality. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say "no reality at all".
Don't get me wrong - I have no love for that story, as it certainly hits the same tones I criticise in the HH novels, but in its location and happenings it is so obviously fantastical and removed from the physical world and its own laws that I have little problem simply moving on. Indeed, it may well be that the dakkanauts who theorise that Draigo's "exploits" are merely part of a greater plan of Chaos. Either way, the realms of the Chaos Gods - including the Inevitable City - are in constant flux and get reshaped all the time. One cannot conquer the Warp, and Draigo is just one more element in a huge play between the different entities calling this plane their home.
Oh, and since we just talked about exaggerations in the retelling of events ... "city walls", as the Codex fluff says in truth, does not mean the entire city.
I'm not as well-versed in Eldar fluff, though, so I can't comment on Maugan Ra. I'm content with retaining my imagination that its impact would be similarly softened by relativising factors.
Void__Dragon wrote:The text disagrees with you.
"Protected by their armour, the Grey Knights weather the storm of barrage bombs exploding amidst the ruins"
That is not a disagreement. Ruins are still cover that serves as an additional protection to the Marines' power armour.
Void__Dragon wrote:Also, in-game, these city-bombarding barrage bombs? They are S7, AP4.
We've been over this before.
Void__Dragon wrote:Oh, and on the next page, the Invaders chapter withstands a psychic bomb that "rocks the planet on its axis" pretty well, whereas the guardsmen accompanying them were incinerated immediately.
I'm not surprised that power armour would be somewhat flame-resistant. This is even in line with GW's Inquisitor RPG:
"Ceramite: This is a ceramic-based armour which is made to absorb and reflect heat. Armour with a ceramite coating counts as being D6 higher against the following weapon types: plasma, melta and flamer."
Void__Dragon wrote:40k is one of the softest science fiction settings out there though.
I find it no more fantastical than Star Wars or Star Trek. Of course you could argue that those are "soft" settings as well with their various supernatural beings and plots, but I'd hardly put them on the same pedestral as, say, Superman.
Let's face it - you like 40k to be one thing, I prefer it as another. The material at least caters to both of us by letting us cherrypick what we like.
Void__Dragon wrote:Also, for the "Primarch things", how do you explain them fighting and besting powerful Greater Daemons one on one, without them being superheroic douchebags?
Perhaps because, as I have often pointed out, technology can provide a significant increase in the bearer's inherent abilities. When a Guardsman can fight and best an Ork if you give him a lasgun, if a Battle Sister can fight and best a Hive Tyrant if you give her a power maul, then perhaps a Space Marine can fight and best a Greater Daemon if you give him "+1" enhancements and/or an even better weapon than a standard power sword.
Or, perhaps, all of those instances of single combat are just myth and legend, as the authors and sometimes even the books themselves tell us. Was I the only one who noticed the huge "this is the current revision of what the Imperium tells its people" disclaimer in the 6E rulebook? Was I the only one taking Marc Gascogne's statements regarding Black Library novels to heart?
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Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
Lynata wrote:Void__Dragon wrote:Actually no, the Aegis gives them an actual defense against Warp-spawned attacks and effects.
The Battle Sisters' willpower and devotion aren't going to save them from that chaos sorcerer spitting Warpflame from his nipples at her.
Actually yes, that Battle Sister would be granted a 6+ saving roll against Warpflame because she has the Shield of Faith special rule.
Void__Dragon wrote:Also, every Grey Knight without question uses force weapons.
Why would a Grey Knight not use his psychic powers anyway?
Dunno. Perhaps because sometimes a bolter is sufficient and you don't even need to go into melee?
Void__Dragon wrote:A specific kind of Daemon that is one of the six most powerful Daemons in existence, yes.
Going by Angron's rules, he has the same Strength, the same Weapon Skill and the same Toughness as a Bloodthirster ... just requires one more Wound to be put down.
But perhaps you think the other Primarchs are stronger or tougher than Angron? It's not something I would necessarily agree with, but hey .. we all have our opinions.
Void__Dragon wrote:Yet mere Carnifexes have survived the glassing of a planet. In the studio fluff.
I don't see the problem as long as the Lance doesn't impact the Carnifex directly.
There is such a thing as "cover" - even from orbital bombardment.
Void__Dragon wrote:No, actually, I am pretty sure a single dude running through Tzeentch's Infinite Labyrinth and then blasting the Inevitable City to rubble is considerably more over the top as weathering a city-destroying plasma blast.
Not for me. Because that's the Warp, which operates under different laws of reality. Or perhaps it would be more accurate to say "no reality at all".
Don't get me wrong - I have no love for that story, as it certainly hits the same tones I criticise in the HH novels, but in its location and happenings it is so obviously fantastical and removed from the physical world and its own laws that I have little problem simply moving on. Indeed, it may well be that the dakkanauts who theorise that Draigo's "exploits" are merely part of a greater plan of Chaos. Either way, the realms of the Chaos Gods - including the Inevitable City - are in constant flux and get reshaped all the time. One cannot conquer the Warp, and Draigo is just one more element in a huge play between the different entities calling this plane their home.
Oh, and since we just talked about exaggerations in the retelling of events ... "city walls", as the Codex fluff says in truth, does not mean the entire city.
I'm not as well-versed in Eldar fluff, though, so I can't comment on Maugan Ra. I'm content with retaining my imagination that its impact would be similarly softened by relativising factors.
Void__Dragon wrote:The text disagrees with you.
"Protected by their armour, the Grey Knights weather the storm of barrage bombs exploding amidst the ruins"
That is not a disagreement. Ruins are still cover that serves as an additional protection to the Marines' power armour.
Void__Dragon wrote:Also, in-game, these city-bombarding barrage bombs? They are S7, AP4.
We've been over this before.
Void__Dragon wrote:Oh, and on the next page, the Invaders chapter withstands a psychic bomb that "rocks the planet on its axis" pretty well, whereas the guardsmen accompanying them were incinerated immediately.
I'm not surprised that power armour would be somewhat flame-resistant. This is even in line with GW's Inquisitor RPG:
"Ceramite: This is a ceramic-based armour which is made to absorb and reflect heat. Armour with a ceramite coating counts as being D6 higher against the following weapon types: plasma, melta and flamer."
Void__Dragon wrote:40k is one of the softest science fiction settings out there though.
I find it no more fantastical than Star Wars or Star Trek. Of course you could argue that those are "soft" settings as well with their various supernatural beings and plots, but I'd hardly put them on the same pedestral as, say, Superman.
Let's face it - you like 40k to be one thing, I prefer it as another. The material at least caters to both of us by letting us cherrypick what we like.
Void__Dragon wrote:Also, for the "Primarch things", how do you explain them fighting and besting powerful Greater Daemons one on one, without them being superheroic douchebags?
Perhaps because, as I have often pointed out, technology can provide a significant increase in the bearer's inherent abilities. When a Guardsman can fight and best an Ork if you give him a lasgun, if a Battle Sister can fight and best a Hive Tyrant if you give her a power maul, then perhaps a Space Marine can fight and best a Greater Daemon if you give him "+1" enhancements and/or an even better weapon than a standard power sword.
Or, perhaps, all of those instances of single combat are just myth and legend, as the authors and sometimes even the books themselves tell us. Was I the only one who noticed the huge "this is the current revision of what the Imperium tells its people" disclaimer in the 6E rulebook? Was I the only one taking Marc Gascogne's statements regarding Black Library novels to heart?
What's with this demystification of a FANTASY world 38000 years in the future you have? That attitude is so idiotic on so many levels, that it reflects on the thinker very poorly.
BTW pretty sure Bloodthirsters can already throw buildings, and primarchs gak on them.
Ruins cover against barrage bombs that shred ceramite? Yeah.......
45703
Post by: Lynata
You have your preferences, I have mine.
That you have to resort to insults to defend your position is, I think, more reflective of your person than my own preferences in fiction are of mine.
"Sorry that I don't love your stuff!"
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Post by: Void__Dragon
I have to admit, I was about to get pretty PO'd at you Lynata, because I was like "wtf I didn't insult you", but it has been pointed out to me that you were referring to Saint of Killers.
I'll respond to your post to me later, lol.
57368
Post by: Redcruisair
 Void__Dragon wrote:
Just ask Batman how well Kryptonite bridged the different between him and Superman in Lex Luthor: Man of Steel.
Read: It didn't, and Batman was dragged halfway across Gotham on his own bat grapnel.
And anyway, Primarchs don't have specific, exploitable weaknesses like Superman.
No? So Horus body wasn’t weak to chaos magic, nor did the Chaos gods exploit his arrogance and need for power? And apparently Angron didn’t have any problems with psykers after all. The excessive nose bleeding and seizure like symptoms he suffered from were (according to you,) just the unfortunate consequence of getting his head hit a few too many times!
Get on my level Void_Fish.
77533
Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
Lynata wrote:You have your preferences, I have mine.
That you have to resort to insults to defend your position is, I think, more reflective of your person than my own preferences in fiction are of mine.
"Sorry that I don't love your stuff!"
You're killing mysticism in a fantasy world..... I'm sorry but that's pigheaded
Notice how you're alone in these views? That's speaks to thier level of coherency and formulation
45234
Post by: Void__Dragon
No.
nor did the Chaos gods exploit his arrogance and need for power?
That is a personality weakness unique to Horus, and not Primarchs in general, nor in battle.
And apparently Angron didn’t have any problems with psykers after all. The excessive nose bleeding and seizure like symptoms he suffered from were (according to you,) just the unfortunate consequence of getting his head hit a few too many times!
Those are traits specific to Angron alone due to the Butcher's Nails. Not Primarchs.
Get on my level Void_Fish.
We're not even playing the same game.
You can not defeat me, no more than you could grasp sunlight in the palm of your hand. What you see is the merest reflection of my power. Pray I do not devote my full attention towards your demise, DEADcruisair.
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Post by: Redcruisair
I previously had the luxury of reading Horus character stats and it list his weaknesses as following: Chaos magic swords and Mind bullets.
Void__Dragon wrote:That is a personality weakness unique to Horus, and not Primarchs in general, nor in battle.
Horus showed doubt, a weakness also shared by Fulgrim, Lorgar and Dorn. All Primarchs as you can see.
Void__Dragon wrote:Those are traits specific to Angron alone due to the Butcher's Nails. Not Primarchs.
It doesn’t matter whether his weakness is derived from the Nails or not. It is still a weakness that can be exploited by others and used against him.
Oh no, you misunderstand the reality of the situation my dear friend. The time for games is long over, as I have already moved on to much grander things.
Void__Dragon wrote:You can not defeat me, no more than you could grasp sunlight in the palm of your hand. What you see is the merest reflection of my power. Pray I do not devote my full attention towards your demise, DEADcruisair.
Had I been but a weaker man, I would have quivered in fear from your promise of doom. But alas I’m more than just a man, and to be truthful, I find your arguments in our debates to be rather void of reasoning.
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Post by: BlaxicanX
Doubt is a weakness of a primarch?
That sounds like a weakness of everyone.
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Post by: Kain
 BlaxicanX wrote:Doubt is a weakness of a primarch?
That sounds like a weakness of everyone.
It's Gladiator's weakness.
Although I'm fairly sure not many people here will know whom I'm talking about.
45234
Post by: Void__Dragon
That jerk with a mohawk. Gladiator is hardly an obscure comic character.
76813
Post by: KhornedBeef
Void__Dragon wrote:
No.
nor did the Chaos gods exploit his arrogance and need for power?
That is a personality weakness unique to Horus, and not Primarchs in general, nor in battle.
And apparently Angron didn’t have any problems with psykers after all. The excessive nose bleeding and seizure like symptoms he suffered from were (according to you,) just the unfortunate consequence of getting his head hit a few too many times!
Those are traits specific to Angron alone due to the Butcher's Nails. Not Primarchs.
Get on my level Void_Fish.
We're not even playing the same game.
You can not defeat me, no more than you could grasp sunlight in the palm of your hand. What you see is the merest reflection of my power. Pray I do not devote my full attention towards your demise, DEADcruisair.
Redcruisair wrote:
I previously had the luxury of reading Horus character stats and it list his weaknesses as following: Chaos magic swords and Mind bullets.
Void__Dragon wrote:That is a personality weakness unique to Horus, and not Primarchs in general, nor in battle.
Horus showed doubt, a weakness also shared by Fulgrim, Lorgar and Dorn. All Primarchs as you can see.
Void__Dragon wrote:Those are traits specific to Angron alone due to the Butcher's Nails. Not Primarchs.
It doesn’t matter whether his weakness is derived from the Nails or not. It is still a weakness that can be exploited by others and used against him.
Oh no, you misunderstand the reality of the situation my dear friend. The time for games is long over, as I have already moved on to much grander things.
Void__Dragon wrote:You can not defeat me, no more than you could grasp sunlight in the palm of your hand. What you see is the merest reflection of my power. Pray I do not devote my full attention towards your demise, DEADcruisair.
Had I been but a weaker man, I would have quivered in fear from your promise of doom. But alas I’m more than just a man, and to be truthful, I find your arguments in our debates to be rather void of reasoning.
Void__Dragon wrote:
No.
nor did the Chaos gods exploit his arrogance and need for power?
That is a personality weakness unique to Horus, and not Primarchs in general, nor in battle.
And apparently Angron didn’t have any problems with psykers after all. The excessive nose bleeding and seizure like symptoms he suffered from were (according to you,) just the unfortunate consequence of getting his head hit a few too many times!
Those are traits specific to Angron alone due to the Butcher's Nails. Not Primarchs.
Get on my level Void_Fish.
We're not even playing the same game.
You can not defeat me, no more than you could grasp sunlight in the palm of your hand. What you see is the merest reflection of my power. Pray I do not devote my full attention towards your demise, DEADcruisair.
Rofl. Plz be more hamtastic guys
Kain wrote: BlaxicanX wrote:Doubt is a weakness of a primarch?
That sounds like a weakness of everyone.
It's Gladiator's weakness.
Although I'm fairly sure not many people here will know whom I'm talking about.
Alien confidence-powered space-superman? Think ib remember him as a champion of the Shi'ar
45234
Post by: Void__Dragon
Redcruisair wrote:
I previously had the luxury of reading Horus character stats and it list his weaknesses as following: Chaos magic swords and Mind bullets.
Cite your source.
Horus showed doubt, a weakness also shared by Fulgrim, Lorgar and Dorn. All Primarchs as you can see.
Horus also showed that he had hands. He showed he has thoughts, and that sometimes he has to take a gak.
These are attributes that apply to most people. Horus had doubts, as do many humans, which the Primarchs more or less are.
It doesn’t matter whether his weakness is derived from the Nails or not. It is still a weakness that can be exploited by others and used against him.
A. Not anymore.
B. We were discussing the attributes of the Primarchs in general, not specific flaws some may have. This one applies to Angron and Angron alone, and wasn't even that much of a weakness.
Oh no, you misunderstand the reality of the situation my dear friend. The time for games is long over, as I have already moved on to much grander things.
Wasting everyone's valuable time.
Had I been but a weaker man, I would have quivered in fear from your promise of doom. But alas I’m more than just a man, and to be truthful, I find your arguments in our debates to be rather void of reasoning.
You are like something straight out of a comic book.
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Post by: Redcruisair
False Gods and William King's short story The Assault on Earth.
Void__Dragon wrote:Horus also showed that he had hands. He showed he has thoughts, and that sometimes he has to take a gak.
These are attributes that apply to most people. Horus had doubts, as do many humans, which the Primarchs more or less are.
So… we are in agreement then?
Void__Dragon wrote:
B. We were discussing the attributes of the Primarchs in general, not specific flaws some may have. This one applies to Angron and Angron alone, and wasn't even that much of a weakness.
I wasn’t discussing anything about the general attributes of the Primarchs. I originally made a post here explaining how a common man could best a Primarch, granted he did so Under the Right Circumstances.
I used the superman kryptonite scenario as an example for my reasoning, but then you showed up to derail yet another thread with your usual mumbo jumbo nonsense. Good Job buddy. “Claps hands.” I once had a dog named Waldo. He was a fairly bland and uninteresting dog, who had an annoying tendency to chaise around after his own tail.
Despite his shortcomings I still kinda enjoyed his company. You remind me of that dog Void_Dragon.
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Post by: Omegus
Kain wrote:
You're right....
The eldest two aren't even three yet anyway and I'm in my mid twenties.
>.>
I'm sorry your life was cut short so early. Oh well, enjoy the kids I guess. #30nokidsandlovingit
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