Ok people. We've all had a few days to stew over the new Space Marine Codex. I'm not yet convinced that you can run a better pod list than Space Wolves, but I'd like to try. I'll present my ideas and I call on you to add your own. By the end of this thread, hopefully we'll have worked out the leanest, meanest pod list there can be.

Here goes:

I figure it's down to Salamanders, Crimson Fists and Iron Hands. I think, with any of them, your baseline is a 9 pod build at 1850-2000 (the tournament usual). The 9 pods would consist of 3 Sternguard squads, 3 Tactical squads and 3 Thunderfire Cannons.

You deploy the TFCs as your base of fire leaving their pods to drop empty. You alpha strike with all the Sternies and 2 of the tacs T1. Situation dependent, you can leave the last tac squad in normal reserves, still deep strike them in the pod, or simply deploy them normally. This mitigates the risk of typical drop pod lists; piecemeal arrival. You're either all, or almost all there on T1. With the amount of combi-weapons Sternguard can bring to bear, combined with the massed fire of bolters and TFCs, you should be able to devastate most armies such that they can't recover.

Now, to the advantages of each chapter.

Salamanders (No Vulkan)- All your flamers are already twin-linked and you're extra-resilient to flame. Plus, you get what is almost always going to be a twin-linked combi-weapon (grav, melta, whatever your flavor) on every character; including all those sergeants. The points you save from no-Vulkan can get you a sweet captain with a relic or two.

Salamanders (With Vulkan)- All that, plus twin-linked melta weapons; and an HQ with a S6 AP3 mastercrafted CCW with a 2+/3++.

Given the amount of combi-weapons and the likelihood that they will be mostly a mix of melta and flame weapons, I think Salamanders lead the discussion.

Crimson Fists (With Pedro)- This list is basically the same build as above, but the Sternguard double the number of scoring units in the army. Given that most tournaments are primarily objective based, this can't be understated. Now, the firepower of this army, regardless of chapter is so overwhelming that you should come close to tabling many average opponents and you should still be crippling strong opponents to the degree that your 30 marines should be enough scoring. HOWEVER, these are 'probably's' not 'definitely's' or we wouldn't be here. Lastly, you get a 4th wound on your warlord who gives a nice little 12" +1A buff to all those Sternguard who already have 2 attacks base.

Iron Hands- I threw these guys in because I think they're intriguing and I think we should consider all options within reason. Most tournaments, even ones with primarily objective based missions, like say the Nova Open (and regional events that use it's primer) still have Kill Points incorporated in some way...in every mission. AND, like at Nova, there may be a mission that has KP as the primary. Lose that one first round, and say goodbye to that Best General award. Iron Hands retain the firepower of the list, for the most part, and make up for it with armywide 6+ FNP and vehicle-wide IWND. That's a huge resilience boost. With all the drop pods in this list, you're going to be hurting on kill points against better armies, even if your alpha strike is successful. And what if you draw a low KP list like a flying circus or Draigo-wing? Iron Hands help mitigate that.

I'm still thinking Salamanders are the strongest contender to dethrone Space Wolves as the preeminent pod list.

I rest my case and await your thoughts.

I agree on Salamanders and actually reckon they'll do better than Space Wolves for it. It's all down to that alpha strike. Sternguard should be given heavy flamers and a couple of combi-flamers for anti-infantry, with the bolters firing either ignores cover or 2+ wound - Tactical squads should be given melta for armour. Just use those rerolls to take out as much as is possible, barring poor dice or *really* spread out enemy deployment you should have a great advantage from the start.

Thunderfires should be left to fire last to tackle anything left - if there's a dangerous unit set to counter-attack they can use Tremor to hopefully stop them from charging, and with Sternguard the flamers should help there too.

While Sternguard are more expensive than combi-armed Wolf Guard the latter don't get the heavy flamer, and the Tac squads should be just a little cheaper than Grey Hunters, so the points cost isn't an issue. If you've done enough damage on the drop then the risk of counter-attack that Space Wolves get to laugh at shouldn't really matter much anyway.

I've always felt that Salamanders do podded flamers and melta better and SW is the best for podding terminators and plasma.

Couple things. I keep seeing Salamanders and twin-linked combi-weapon. I thought the sergants got a free mastercraft upgrade. So not exactly twin-linked, especially for things like grav guns.

Second, I don't really see how any of this is better than Space Wolves. Wolf Guard beats Sternguard hands down. WGs are 23 points with a combi-weapon, not 23-ish base without them like Sternguard are. Also, WG could get a HF if that is really needed by bringing one WG in TDA.

Third. SW troops can bring TWO flamers or two melta or two plasma in each of their 'tac' squads. Isn't that better on the alpha strike than SM Tacs which can only take one?

That's part of why I wanted to launch the thread. To examine whether any of these could perform better than wolves. Despite the obvious cost advantages of WG over SG, cost isn't everything. If the opponent is meched up, mastercrafted melta weaponry can be the difference between the alpha strike being successful or not.

Also, Wolf Guard don't score without Logan right? And he's expensive. Pedro is cheaper and makes SG score.

Let's get some lists up here. I'll start with a Salamanders build, and someone with a SW codex please post a rival wolves variant.

Vulkan

x10 Sternguard: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-meltas, pod- 315
x10 Sternguard: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-meltas, pod- 315
x10 Sternguard: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-meltas, pod- 315

x10 Tactical Marines: combi-melta, meltagun, multi-melta, pod- 205
x5 Tactical Marines: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
x5 Tactical Marines: combi-melta, meltagun, pod, meltabombs- 130

Thunderfire Cannon: pod- 135
Thunderfire Cannon: pod- 135
Thunderfire Cannon: pod- 135

Total: 2000

Right away once I got the list down I'm leaning more towards a Pedro-wing with scoring Sternguard. To squeeze in all the goodies; you really have to lose out on troops. A Crimson Fists version would be identical but instead of throwing the meltabombs on that one tac squad, you could fit in another combi-weapon on the SG.

How do the wolves look?

2000 points of space wolves coming down at ya.

Naja Stormcaller - Wg - SS/axe - WG hf/maul - wgx3 combie melta - pod

Rune Priest - Jaws/Storm - Terminator Armor - Wg - SS/axe - WG hf/maul - wgx3 combie melta - pod

Troops
Grey hunter (10) - 2x melta - wolf banner - Wulfen - pod
Grey hunter (10) - 2x melta - wolf banner - Wulfen - pod
Grey hunter (10) - 2x melta - wolf banner - wulfen - pod
Grey hunter (10) - 2x melta - wolf banner - Wulfen - pod
Grey hunter (10) - 2x melta - wolf banner - pod
Grey hunter (10) - 2x melta - wolf banner - pod

Then you could argue that the sallies list is a lot more flexible with Sternguards special ammo, 6 heavy flamers, and 18 small barrage templates a turn. Versus the SW list that virtually only good at killing mech or mc spam.

Hmmm Ultramarines, don't make it into the discussion? Use Tactical Doctrine first turn you're basically rerolling your entire first shooting phase


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sorry don't have 'dex in front of me and I can't remember: Do chapters other than Ultramarines benefit from combat squads now?

Yup, all space marines can combat squad. That's why it's important for the SG to stay 10-man. Lite in troops tho. I think the discussion becomes, what's more important: scoring SG or master crafted everything. It's a big difference in firepower but also more than doubles your scoring if you go the Pedro way.

At least from the wolf list posted, someone could
Post a different one, I still like the marines. A lot more firepower regardless of chapter.

 The Shrike wrote:
That's part of why I wanted to launch the thread. To examine whether any of these could perform better than wolves. Despite the obvious cost advantages of WG over SG, cost isn't everything. If the opponent is meched up, mastercrafted melta weaponry can be the difference between the alpha strike being successful or not.

Mastercrafted melta weaponry isn't a big deal considering that Wolf Guard can take a crap ton of combi-meltas and still be cheaper than base price combi-weapon-less Sternguard.

Also, Wolf Guard don't score without Logan right? And he's expensive. Pedro is cheaper and makes SG score.

Why bother making them scoring? A Rune Priest is cheaper than Pedro and is extremely useful. I'd focusing on bringing more bodies onto the table, not spending a lot of points to make extra expensive marines troops.

Let's get some lists up here.

x10 Sternguard: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-meltas, pod- 315

You don't need lists you need units. 8 Combi-weapon Wolf guard is 178 points. 35 for the pod. 213 points total. 10 Combi-weapon wolf guard? 265 points total.

x10 Tactical Marines: combi-melta, meltagun, multi-melta, pod- 205

10 GH, two meltas pod, 190 points.

10 GH, two flamers, pod, 185 points.

How do the wolves look?

Better in every way, except (and this is a big except) they can't combat squad. Still they seem better overall.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Saythings wrote:
Then you could argue that the sallies list is a lot more flexible with Sternguards special ammo, 6 heavy flamers, and 18 small barrage templates a turn. Versus the SW list that virtually only good at killing mech or mc spam.

You could argue that, sure, but we all know SW can take melta, flamers or plasma in their GH squads. We all know they can take any of those as combi-weapons in their much cheaper than Sternguard squads.

I still don't think it's enough to tip in favour of the Sternguard special ammo (which is, by the way, *WHY* they're more expensive than Sternguard - Ignores Cover/2+ wounding is a big deal over combis), but something that a lot of people are missing out that makes Grey Hunters better - the Wolf Standard. It *can* be used in a shooting phase, which is basically giving that unit an Ultramarines doctrine.

 Super Ready wrote:
the Wolf Standard. It *can* be used in a shooting phase, which is basically giving that unit an Ultramarines doctrine.

<---- Tears of joy. I guess that changed in 6th edition and I completely missed it.

Didn't see anyone mention it, but if you read the drop pod entry, it says you MUST embark them on the drop now.

It does not say that at all. It says drop pods and units embarked on them must enter play via deep strike rules. If you had to embark upon one as a unit taking it as a dedicated transport, the RAW would read something like: units Selecting a drop pod must embark upon it and enter play via deep strike.

I had another thread about this. Considering both rules and characters, Ultramarines may be a better choice than both the above.

With the Chapter Tactics, they can re-roll a lot of hits on the alpha-strike turn. While that's a one-turn deal, it affects all their weapons, not just flamer/melta.

But the key is the special characters. Tigurius is probably the best character for both his psychic boosts and the reserve manipulation (good for pod armies).

 Super Ready wrote:
I still don't think it's enough to tip in favour of the Sternguard special ammo (which is, by the way, *WHY* they're more expensive than Sternguard - Ignores Cover/2+ wounding is a big deal over combis), but something that a lot of people are missing out that makes Grey Hunters better - the Wolf Standard. It *can* be used in a shooting phase, which is basically giving that unit an Ultramarines doctrine.

DO WHAT?! Can you cite please?

And if it's true......oh how the tables will have changed

 Super Ready wrote:
- the Wolf Standard. It *can* be used in a shooting phase, which is basically giving that unit an Ultramarines doctrine.

When did this happen? An FAQ?

That's ridiculous. Page 62 of the Space Wolves Codex:

...
Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.

 Redbeard wrote:
That's ridiculous. Page 62 of the Space Wolves Codex:

...
Once per game, a unit that includes a wolf standard may call upon the power of the wolf. For the duration of of the next Assault Phase, all models in that unit may re-roll any dice rolls of a 1.

Thank you thats what I thought....sheesh

Dammit I just creamed my pants for nothing.

Argh, I'm sorry everyone. I simply misremembered the Codex.

 Redbeard wrote:
I had another thread about this. Considering both rules and characters, Ultramarines may be a better choice than both the above.

With the Chapter Tactics, they can re-roll a lot of hits on the alpha-strike turn. While that's a one-turn deal, it affects all their weapons, not just flamer/melta.

But the key is the special characters. Tigurius is probably the best character for both his psychic boosts and the reserve manipulation (good for pod armies).

I absolutely agree. Even though the other two doctrines will see very little use in most lists, the fact that all your shooting for the alpha strike is going to hit (and that sternguard special ammo at least gets more bonus than IF CT gives) is very strong. I mean, if we're talking about alpha strikes, we might as well hit as hard as possible. This even means that a multi-melta in a tac squad can drop in and have some shot at hitting on that turn. Tigurius making sure that any second-wave pods come in on turn 2 is insane as well.

Obviously, an Ultramarine list would look very different from a Crimson Fist/Sallamnder list, though. Namely, UM's will want to go down to one (maybe two?) units of sternguard and instead focus more on tacticals. Tacs can't kill as much as sterns, but the twin-linking makes up some of the gap, and UMs will be far more numerous on the board, particularly with regards to being able to score (in non-Pedro lists, especially).

My main sticking point, though is how best to abuse Tigurius. Do I want him to stay in the back with the TFCs? Do I put him in a pod with a combat squad and try to go offensive with him? If so, should I have a level 1 libby in the back field to try to preserve Slay the Warlord?

**Edited to prevent any further off-topic nitpicking**

Another thing I thought when looking at pods was a 5-man assault marine squad, without jump packs, and 2 flamers.

95 points, including the flamers and pod, gets you a decent sweeper unit. Might be a decent place to stick Tiggy, instead of a tac combat squad.

 tomjoad wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:
I had another thread about this. Considering both rules and characters, Ultramarines may be a better choice than both the above.

With the Chapter Tactics, they can re-roll a lot of hits on the alpha-strike turn. While that's a one-turn deal, it affects all their weapons, not just flamer/melta.

But the key is the special characters. Tigurius is probably the best character for both his psychic boosts and the reserve manipulation (good for pod armies).

I absolutely agree. Even though the other two doctrines will see very little use in most lists, the fact that all your shooting for the alpha strike is going to hit (and that sternguard special ammo essentially get to be master crafted) is very strong[b] . I mean, if we're talking about alpha strikes, we might as well hit as hard as possible. This even means that a multi-melta in a tac squad can drop in and have some shot at hitting on that turn. Tigurius making sure that any second-wave pods come in on turn 2 is insane as well.

Obviously, an Ultramarine list would look very different from a Crimson Fist/Sallamnder list, though. Namely, UM's will want to go down to one (maybe two?) units of sternguard and instead focus more on tacticals. Tacs can't kill as much as sterns, but the twin-linking makes up some of the gap, and UMs will be far more numerous on the board, particularly with regards to being able to score (in non-Pedro lists, especially).

My main sticking point, though is how best to abuse Tigurius. Do I want him to stay in the back with the TFCs? Do I put him in a pod with a combat squad and try to go offensive with him? If so, should I have a level 1 libby in the back field to try to preserve Slay the Warlord?

The tactical doctrine allows tactical squads to reroll all failed rolls to hit in the shooting phase, and the rest of your army I believe only 1's. Gotta check though.

Is rerolling 1's not what mastercrafted does?

Nope - it's *one* reroll of a miss. Rulebook page 39.

Super Newb wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:
That's part of why I wanted to launch the thread. To examine whether any of these could perform better than wolves. Despite the obvious cost advantages of WG over SG, cost isn't everything. If the opponent is meched up, mastercrafted melta weaponry can be the difference between the alpha strike being successful or not.

Mastercrafted melta weaponry isn't a big deal considering that Wolf Guard can take a crap ton of combi-meltas and still be cheaper than base price combi-weapon-less Sternguard.

To be honest, that's how it should be considering Wolf Guard don't get special ammo... although cheaper combi-weapons in general is also just a 5th/6th ed difference.

Taking Terminator Combi-weapon Wolf Guard is where it's at though.

I popped out this poddy list of Sallies a few minutes ago

HQ:

Vulkan He'stan - 190 points

Troops:

10x Man Tactical Squad - 205 pts
w/ MM, Meltagun, Combi Melta
in Drop Pod

5x Man Tactical Squad - 125 pts
w/ MM, Combi Melta
in Drop Pod

5x Man Tactical Squad - 125 pts
w/ MM, Combi Melta
in Drop Pod

Elites:

9x Man Sternguard - 313 pts
3x Combi Flamer
4x Combi Melta
2x Heavy Flamer
Melta Bombs
Drop Pod

-Idk what combi weapons to use, maybe Gravs? Meltas? Plasmas? Flamers? They will drop down with He'stan

Ironclad Dreadnought - 180 pts
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod

Ironclad Dreadnought - 180 pts
Heavy Flamer
Drop Pod

Fast Attack:

Assault Squad - 105 pts
2x Flamer
Combi Flamer
Drop Pod

Heavy Support:

Stalker - 75 pts

I don't understand the UM love. They get Rerolls of BOLTER weaponry. It's the combi weapons, both flame and melta that are providing the real alpha strike pain. They do have effective scoring and Tighrius, but from a pure alpha strike perspective, they don't measure up.

The Tactical Doctrine lets the entire tac squad reroll misses, not just bolters, I believe.

And it allows ALL other weapons to reroll 1's to hit, including combis on sterns and heavy weapons in dev squads.

tbh, droppodlsts are either of Ultra, impfist or wolf: they all have their advantages

I like Sallies with Vulkan a lot.... makes combi meltas and meltas VERY good

 The Shrike wrote:
I don't understand the UM love. They get Rerolls of BOLTER weaponry. It's the combi weapons, both flame and melta that are providing the real alpha strike pain. They do have effective scoring and Tighrius, but from a pure alpha strike perspective, they don't measure up.

It's all shooting, not just bolters. Tacticals become fully Twin-Linked.

Tigurius is just so insane!
With his Warlord trait and Divination powers, you basically have:
-Your Chapter Doctrine on T1
-Prescience on T2 and Storm of Fire on T2.
-Almost a 100% guarantee that every Drop Pod lands on T2 (you really want Div-Power 6 in my opinion)
-Perfect Timing can give an entire unit 'Ignores Cover' and you can give the unit in 'front' a 4++

Or you can use Calgar too.
-You lose Storm of Fire, but Calgar has Storm of Fire too (a very big chance on having it)
-Tactical Doctrine twice!

Sure, their Alpha-strike is 10% less strong. But their Alpha-strike lasts two turns

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:

Taking Terminator Combi-weapon Wolf Guard is where it's at though.

Not when you want to 'alpha strike' though, better to have more power armor guys because that means more combi-weapon shots. A full TDA WG squad in a pod is only 5 guys, so 5 combi-weapons. 10 PA WG can fit in a pod for 10 combis. Or because WG can have mixed squads, 8 PA 1 TDA or 6 PA 2 TDA are also options.

Actually, for Ultras, I'd be tempted to take 3 "large" (that is, 7/8 man) Devastator squads. The Devastator doctrine will allow them to fire on the turn they arrive - 1 squad of multimeltas for vehicles, and 2 of plasma cannons together with added bolters and anything from Tactical and Sternguard squads should make for some really hefty damage. Then you get to use the other doctrines in later turns still and the Devastators can sit more or less where they are to pick on other stuff - the extra couple of bodies being used for any return fire.

That doesn't work, it includes the line "unless they disembark from a Transport in their Movement phase".

Now you will probably say: But they must disembark upon landing, before the movement phase.
But a turn is divided in: Movement, Shooting and Assault-phase. (page 9) There is no "in-between" phase like with MTG (They call it an Upkeep)

Was about to say... that would've been scary...

Aw man, that would have been a really fun tactic to try out.

I think the reliance on triple TFC and lots of very short ranged weaponary will do very poorly against flyers. YMMV

By all means capitalise on the 1st turn Alpha strike. I would suggest more flamer, some plasma/grav and melta.

I can't really say much more, I don't own the codex yet

That's why you take Stormtalons in the Fast Slot, nothing else interesting in there

I've been debating DP lists as well. And who to take for the parent list.

For allies, here's what I would be bringing. : Dark Angels Libby (Divination) with Port field generator (4++) to anyone close.

Scout squad for troops, infiltrate on an objective or near one.

Devastator squad in a pod with 4 Flakk missiles. Libby rides along.

This gives you a decent anti-air unit that can survive baleflamers.

Now, if you take the UM CT and Tiggy, you take fortifications, throw on a quad gun and a UM Dev squad, with the sergeant and his signum boosting someone on the quad gun to a 2+ to hit. Have Tiggy use Divination on the rest of the unit with flakk, and now you have awesome AA. You'd have to give up the TFCs, but I think 8 missile launchers makes up for it.

If I had the points, I'd actually take DA as the parent list so I could throw Belial and some DeathWing in on the alpha strike. Or keep them as allies and instead of the libby, take a techmarine with the PFG, but then I'd lose Divination on the Devs.

I think what we need for making the right list is a list of what our opponents will have that we will need to counter and hit with the alpha strike. Riptides, Wraithknights, Big Daemons and Nid MC flyers etc. What about Daemon lists who also, in effect, pod in??? What are the drop pod tactics against them.

 The Shrike wrote:
I don't understand the UM love. They get Rerolls of BOLTER weaponry.

Thats the Bolter Drill rule for IF CT.

On the flip side, now that I think about it....

Taking wolves as allies would be powerful as well.

Main list, CSM with 2 units of Devs with flakk missiles.

Allied list: 2 Runepriests with divination.

2 GH squads

stick the runepriests down with the Devs.

GH's would be in the first wave. 2 special weapons, and they have more attacks and counter attack if the enemy charges them first turn.

2nd turn drop brings in shooters with rerolls.

Another variation would be first turn droppers use white scars CT, and if charged first turn they can hit and run, allowing second turn droppers to fire on them.

Another thing you have to take into account with pod armies is the counter attack after the drop. Can you weather counter fire and assault? Marines aren't the best in HTH and armor 3+ does easily these days.

Welp, confused them with Imperial Fists lol. Whoops.
Still; I'm not sure one turn of Rerolls justifies UM over te others.

 The Shrike wrote:
I don't understand the UM love. They get Rerolls of BOLTER weaponry. It's the combi weapons, both flame and melta that are providing the real alpha strike pain. They do have effective scoring and Tighrius, but from a pure alpha strike perspective, they don't measure up.

"Models in this detachment re-roll
all To Hit rolls of 1 made in the Shooting phase.
Models in the detachment's Tactical Squads instead
re-ro ll all failed To Hit rolls made in the Shooting phase."

Affects allll shooting. Not as good as straight up TL, but since its army wide rerolling 1/2 of all your misses (rerolling all with Tac), its going to add up. Don't overlook Tigurius either. His warlord trait will let you re roll all 1s for squads within 12" the next turn. Not to mention rerolling reserves. Not to mention buffing your squads with prescience, perfect timing, that 4++ power, forcing rerolled armor saves etc.

My main sticking point, though is how best to abuse Tigurius. Do I want him to stay in the back with the TFCs? Do I put him in a pod with a combat squad and try to go offensive with him? If so, should I have a level 1 libby in the back field to try to preserve Slay the Warlord?

I'd run him up with the main force. If you're playing an alpha strike pod list you've really just gotta run it all out. At lvl 1 there's not much the extra libby is gonna do to buff the TFC and if you don't make Tigurius your warlord you're missing out on his sweet warlord trait. He's too much of a force multiplier not to have in the fray if you ask me.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Kangodo wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:
I don't understand the UM love. They get Rerolls of BOLTER weaponry. It's the combi weapons, both flame and melta that are providing the real alpha strike pain. They do have effective scoring and Tighrius, but from a pure alpha strike perspective, they don't measure up.

It's all shooting, not just bolters. Tacticals become fully Twin-Linked.

Tigurius is just so insane!
With his Warlord trait and Divination powers, you basically have:
-Your Chapter Doctrine on T1
-Prescience on T2 and Storm of Fire on T2.
-Almost a 100% guarantee that every Drop Pod lands on T2 (you really want Div-Power 6 in my opinion)
-Perfect Timing can give an entire unit 'Ignores Cover' and you can give the unit in 'front' a 4++

Sure, their Alpha-strike is 10% less strong. But their Alpha-strike lasts two turns

This. This by far. All of the pod lists are going to to end up being fairly similar with the CT really making the big differences. Tigurius is the biggest force multiplier out there by far. My only difference here is that I would want the divination power that forces enemy units to reroll successful armor saves. How sick would that be with rerollable hell fire rounds?

I'm sold. UM FTW. That's why I made this thread; I wouldn't have thunk it on my own. How about a list like this?:

Tigurius

Sternguard x5: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-grav, pod-205
Sternguard x5: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-grav, pod-205
Sternguard x5: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-grav, pod- 205

Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125

Stormtalon: sky hammer- 125
Stormtalon: sky hammer- 125

Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Thunderfire Cannon- 100

Total: 1980

A) does this look good?
B) what to do with the last 20 points?

I've been playing around with an IH drop-pod list.

It goes something like this;

Captain - Artificer Armour, Shield Eternal, Thunder hammer

MoTF

Ironclad - 2 HF, Pod

Ironclad - 2 HF, Pod

5 Sternguard - Pod

5 Tacticals -, Melta, Combimelta, Pod

5 Tacticals -, Melta, Combimelta, Pod

10 Tacticals - ML, Flamer, Pod

Venerable Dread - MM, Heavy Flamer, Pod

Venerable Dread - MM, Heavy Flamer, Pod

Dread - 2x TL AC, pod



9 Drop pods, 5 Dreads and a tough as hell commander tanking wounds for sternguard.

I'd find space for a techmarine depending on points.

I know...I have no AA. I could look at dropping the Rifleman dread and something else in favour of two stormtalons i suppose.

A drop pod list can be countered simply by taking a couple of GK Strike Squads. Just saying.

 The Shrike wrote:
I'm sold. UM FTW. That's why I made this thread; I wouldn't have thunk it on my own. How about a list like this?:

Tigurius

Sternguard x5: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-grav, pod-205
Sternguard x5: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-grav, pod-205
Sternguard x5: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-grav, pod- 205

Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125

Stormtalon: sky hammer- 125
Stormtalon: sky hammer- 125

Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Thunderfire Cannon- 100

Total: 1980

A) does this look good?
B) what to do with the last 20 points?

A) No.

The point of a pod list isn't to get as many pods on the table as possible, it's to get as many marines where you need them as possible. Putting combat squads in pods means you're paying for extra pods that you neither want, nor need.

You're better off with;
Tacs x 10: combi-melta, meltagun, missile, pod - 210

Than you are with:
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125


Because you can deploy the missile guy in the backfield or have him arrive in the pod with his friends. And, on top of that, you're saving 40 points per 10 marines. That's 120 points saved over your troops, and another few points over your elites, and you can get another whole pod, or something else with those saved points.

Polecat wrote:
A drop pod list can be countered simply by taking a couple of GK Strike Squads. Just saying.

True. Just gotta stay 12" away!

Seriously though....I hate Warp Quake....

 NickTheButcher wrote:

Polecat wrote:
A drop pod list can be countered simply by taking a couple of GK Strike Squads. Just saying.

True. Just gotta stay 12" away!

Seriously though....I hate Warp Quake....

Yeah but it's one unit from one army that does this (yes I know other armies have interceptor which isn't fun but GKSS spamming Warp Quake is much worse). I wouldn't be too concerned.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 The Shrike wrote:
I'm sold. UM FTW.

I'm not sold it will be better than SW, but that seems to be the best options for SM pods. The combination of Tigurius and the chapter tactics is great...

Sternguard x5: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-grav, pod-205

Wondering if it would be better to have fewer Sternguard squads but make them 10 Sternguard, 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-grav, then combat squad them on the drop. HF aren't going to do much to MCs and other nasty stuff but they'll do great against infantry with bad saves. Combi-gravs are a waste against infantry with bad saves. Also, I don't have the codex, are combi-gravs 10 points like all the other combi-weapons? Or are they more expensive?

 Redbeard wrote:

 The Shrike wrote:
I'm sold. UM FTW. That's why I made this thread; I wouldn't have thunk it on my own. How about a list like this?:

Tigurius

Sternguard x5: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-grav, pod-205
Sternguard x5: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-grav, pod-205
Sternguard x5: 2 heavy flamers, 3 combi-grav, pod- 205

Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125

Stormtalon: sky hammer- 125
Stormtalon: sky hammer- 125

Thunderfire Cannon- 100
Thunderfire Cannon- 100

Total: 1980

A) does this look good?
B) what to do with the last 20 points?

A) No.

The point of a pod list isn't to get as many pods on the table as possible, it's to get as many marines where you need them as possible. Putting combat squads in pods means you're paying for extra pods that you neither want, nor need.

You're better off with;
Tacs x 10: combi-melta, meltagun, missile, pod - 210

Than you are with:
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125
Tacs x 5: combi-melta, meltagun, pod- 125


Because you can deploy the missile guy in the backfield or have him arrive in the pod with his friends. And, on top of that, you're saving 40 points per 10 marines. That's 120 points saved over your troops, and another few points over your elites, and you can get another whole pod, or something else with those saved points.

You dont mean deploying the missile guy in the backfield by...combat squadding...before dropping....because you can't do that.

Are you sure? Because you always could before, and I'm reasonably sure you still can. But, my codex is not at hand. There may be some chance I'm wrong.

Combat squads are done before warlord traits so it can be done

Yup, the new rules let you combat squad well before deployment, but you can put both combat squads in the pod. Page 76. So you can split out heavy weapons from your tac squads to reinforce your thunderfire positions, and combat squad your sternguard to allow them to alpha-strike two different targets when they get out of the pod.

Also, with Tigurius he can't cast Blessings or Maledictions when arriving in a Pod, so be wary of that. It's probably better for him to deploy elsewhere at the start of the game unless you're willing to risk him.

 Andilus Greatsword wrote:
Also, with Tigurius he can't cast Blessings or Maledictions when arriving in a Pod, so be wary of that. It's probably better for him to deploy elsewhere at the start of the game unless you're willing to risk him.

This is concerning, for sure. He can use his warlord trait on turn 1 to replace Prescience, but nothing makes up for losing out on Invisibility or Forwarning or Telekine Dome. W3 is nice, but he still has only a 3+ save and can be instant killed.

 Redbeard wrote:
Yup, the new rules let you combat squad well before deployment, but you can put both combat squads in the pod. Page 76. So you can split out heavy weapons from your tac squads to reinforce your thunderfire positions, and combat squad your sternguard to allow them to alpha-strike two different targets when they get out of the pod.

My mistake, I did not see that.

I've been thinking, always a dangerous exercise, that 30 stern guard, fully decked, 3 thunder fires and only 2 full tac squads at 1850 is probably te way to go....with Pedro. You still have a ton of scoring but the combat squads allow you to do stuff
Like this:

Drop.

Heavy Flamers and spec ammo in one CS,

3-4 combi melta in the other CS.

Meltas open tin cans or instagib things and flamers and spec
Ammo burn the contents. Pedro also has 4W and gives his little +1A buff...almost like wolves, well, poor mans wolves but they'd then have 3 attacks getting charged.

I still think Salamanders (with Vulcan) have an edge, if you use LoTD.
His special rule makes all melta Mc in his detachment.. including the cover ignoring melta and multi melta on LoTD, who happen to be SnP.
The LoTD don't benefit from CT, but Vulcan's special rule is not a CT.
So that's about 155pts for 5 deep striking (precise deepstriking) 3++ melta toting marines who ignore cover and can unload all weaponry on arrival, not too shabby.
And if you ally in UM with Tiggy, you can make sure they get there when you want them.

That is, until they faq this.

Drahad wrote:
I still think Salamanders (with Vulcan) have an edge, if you use LoTD.
His special rule makes all melta Mc in his detachment.. including the cover ignoring melta and multi melta on LoTD, who happen to be SnP.
The LoTD don't benefit from CT, but Vulcan's special rule is not a CT.
So that's about 155pts for 5 deep striking (precise deepstriking) 3++ melta toting marines who ignore cover and can unload all weaponry on arrival, not too shabby.
And if you ally in UM with Tiggy, you can make sure they get there when you want them.

That is, until they faq this.

Except only 1 melta can be carried and if they are in the Salamanders detachment the Tiggy reserve rules won't affect them.

1 melta, Multi melta and combo melta is the idea I believe. And yes that's a very good unit that RAW is MC and ignores cover... Nasty! I however like Ultramarines for Drop Pod lists.

Nice thread, The Shrike, I'm picking up some good tips here

So your all ready to pod in...your opponent then keeps his big scary stuff in reserves, and puts the half he can on the table. spread out, which weakens your force because you either come at him singly, weakening the alpha strike, or you end up all in one area....and his reserves come in across the board.

What the lists need are drop units with long range firepower to supplement the army.

General Hobbs wrote:


So your all ready to pod in...your opponent then keeps his big scary stuff in reserves, and puts the half he can on the table. spread out, which weakens your force because you either come at him singly, weakening the alpha strike, or you end up all in one area....and his reserves come in across the board.

What the lists need are drop units with long range firepower to supplement the army.

Hence the Thunderfire Cannons and Stormtalons.

General Hobbs wrote:


So your all ready to pod in...your opponent then keeps his big scary stuff in reserves, and puts the half he can on the table. spread out, which weakens your force because you either come at him singly, weakening the alpha strike, or you end up all in one area....and his reserves come in across the board.

What the lists need are drop units with long range firepower to supplement the army.

So, he keeps his heavy firepower in reserve? That's not always a good idea. Now you have left your squishy stuff on the board for me to focus on and then just take your reserves piecemeal. Don't forget that with pods, I choose which ones come in first. If you want to wait to bring in powerful units, I can too.

Pods allow for extreme flexibility, especially with deployment and combat squads. I can always make sure, the unit I want, will be exactly where I want it, when I want it (barring poor reserve rolls, but that's what Comms Relay is for )

The long range firepower you are looking for isn't in the pod or dropping in (if it's long range, why drop in? ) . It's the heavy weapon in a combat squad deployed normally, next to a thunderfire cannon in bolstered terrain.

General Hobbs wrote:

Drahad wrote:
I still think Salamanders (with Vulcan) have an edge, if you use LoTD.
His special rule makes all melta Mc in his detachment.. including the cover ignoring melta and multi melta on LoTD, who happen to be SnP.
The LoTD don't benefit from CT, but Vulcan's special rule is not a CT.
So that's about 155pts for 5 deep striking (precise deepstriking) 3++ melta toting marines who ignore cover and can unload all weaponry on arrival, not too shabby.
And if you ally in UM with Tiggy, you can make sure they get there when you want them.

That is, until they faq this.

Except only 1 melta can be carried and if they are in the Salamanders detachment the Tiggy reserve rules won't affect them.

1 melta, 1 multimelta, 1 combimelta.. and tiggy has acces to divination (and thus scrier's gaze) a 75% chance to get it.

Drahad wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

Drahad wrote:
I still think Salamanders (with Vulcan) have an edge, if you use LoTD.
His special rule makes all melta Mc in his detachment.. including the cover ignoring melta and multi melta on LoTD, who happen to be SnP.
The LoTD don't benefit from CT, but Vulcan's special rule is not a CT.
So that's about 155pts for 5 deep striking (precise deepstriking) 3++ melta toting marines who ignore cover and can unload all weaponry on arrival, not too shabby.
And if you ally in UM with Tiggy, you can make sure they get there when you want them.

That is, until they faq this.

Except only 1 melta can be carried and if they are in the Salamanders detachment the Tiggy reserve rules won't affect them.

1 melta, 1 multimelta, 1 combimelta.. and tiggy has acces to divination (and thus scrier's gaze) a 75% chance to get it.

Ah, didn't think of that. Thanks.

HQ: 350 points
Tigurius
165 points
Cato Sicarius
185 points

Elites: 320 points
9 Sternguard and Sergeant
Heavy Flamers/4 combi-plasma/ Sergeant has meltabombs
Drop Pod Transport
320 points

Troops: 660 points
9 Tactical Marines and Sergeant
meltagun, missile Launcher, combi-melta
Drop pod
210 points

4 Tactical Marines and Sergeant
Flamer, combi-flamer
Drop pod
120 points

9 Tactical Marines and Sergeant
meltagun, missile Launcher, combi-melta
Drop pod
210 points

4 Tactical Marines and Sergeant
Flamer, combi-flamer
Drop pod
120 points

Fast Attack: 250 points
Storm Talon Gunship with Skyhammer Launcher
125 points
Storm Talon Gunship with Skyhammer Launcher
125 points

Heavy Support:
Thunderfire Cannon with Drop pod
135 points
Thunderfire Cannon with Drop pod
135 points

1850 on the nose.

 Redbeard wrote:


A) No.

The point of a pod list isn't to get as many pods on the table as possible, it's to get as many marines where you need them as possible. Putting combat squads in pods means you're paying for extra pods that you neither want, nor need.

This is wrong, completely. The whole point of a Drop Pod army is to Alpha Strike the first turn and do as much damage as possible. Spamming 5 man squads with special weapons is a VERY effective tactic as it creates so many targets for your opponent to shoot at, intercept ect. that no matter what some are going to survive. I ran a list at 2000pts. with x13 drop pods and wiped out a very good Tau army with it, he could not kill everything as there was to much on the table.

Now in regards to what I have found effective this is a "ODST" themed Drop Pod army that I have been playing with:

HQ:

-Tigirius

ELITES:

-x5 Sternguard
*w/ x2 Heavy Flamer
-Pod

-x5 Sternguard
*w/ x2 Heavy Flamer
-Pod

-x5 Sternguard
*w/ x2 Heavy Flamer
-Pod

TROOPS:

-x5 Tac Marines
*w/ Melta
-Pod

-x5 Tac Marines
*w/ Melta
-Pod

-x5 Tac Marines
*w/ Melta
-Pod

-x5 Tac Marines
*w/ Melta
-Pod

-x5 Tac Marines
*w/ Melta
-Pod

-x5 Tac Marines
*w/ Melta
-Pod

FAST ATTACK:

-Storm Talon
*w/ Skyhammer Missiles

-Storm Talon
*w/ Skyhammer Missiles

HEAVY SUPPORT:

-Thunderfire Cannon

-Thunderfire Cannon
-Pod

-Thunderfire Cannon
-Pod

TOTAL ARMY: 2000 POINTS

Tactics:

-Between the Sternguard and Thunderfire Cannons there should be plenty there to handle my anti infantry duties with the TAC squads soley kitted out to handle any armor I may come across along with the Storm Talons.

-Tigirius is there so when he comes down he can phsycic shirek and cast other awesome spells to buff my guys even more, that and since he comes with the Warlord Trait to re-roll hits with all units within 12 inches means he can basically use that tactic twice.

Alpha strike is not the only purpose to a pod army... All be it that it is a nice thing and very important to still be able to deliver a powerful alpha strike, but pods can be used to secure key objectives late game, or simply as a one way transport to get your unit across the field in one turn. Don't underestimate the tactical possibilities of the drop pod.

i don't think there doctrine affects the special issue ammo

 Super Ready wrote:
I agree on Salamanders and actually reckon they'll do better than Space Wolves for it. It's all down to that alpha strike. Sternguard should be given heavy flamers and a couple of combi-flamers for anti-infantry, with the bolters firing either ignores cover or 2+ wound - Tactical squads should be given melta for armour. Just use those rerolls to take out as much as is possible, barring poor dice or *really* spread out enemy deployment you should have a great advantage from the start.

Thunderfires should be left to fire last to tackle anything left - if there's a dangerous unit set to counter-attack they can use Tremor to hopefully stop them from charging, and with Sternguard the flamers should help there too.

While Sternguard are more expensive than combi-armed Wolf Guard the latter don't get the heavy flamer, and the Tac squads should be just a little cheaper than Grey Hunters, so the points cost isn't an issue. If you've done enough damage on the drop then the risk of counter-attack that Space Wolves get to laugh at shouldn't really matter much anyway.

A sm taq squad, with 10 men strong with two flamers, normal sgt with combi-flamer and drop pod, they are 195 pts, 205 if you give them two meltas

A grey hunters pack, 10 hunters strong, with two flamers and the drop pod, they cost 185 pts, with one less flamer, if you give them the two melta 190 pts, you have one less special weapon because the lack of the sgt, but you have counterattack and 2A on each grey hunter, if you toolup the pack is more expensive
Here is other, 10 gh, 2 flamers, plasma pistol and the drop pod, 200 pts, same like before, 205 with meltas
If you want a real assult force 10 Gh, 2 flamers, power axe, wolf standard, mark of wulfen and the drop pod 230pts, 235 pts with melta, thats give you, a hole squad with 2A base, rerolls of ALL 1´s in one assault phase per game (that mean you reroll 1´s to hit, to wound, armour save, inv save, and, if you give them with biomancy, feel no pain) a power weapon and a beast with d6+1A with rending, just for 35 more poinst than the tac squad, that a huge difference betwen the gh and the tac, the gh keep the title of best close quarter unit

10 Sternguar, 9 combi-weapons, heavy flamer and the drop pod, 365 pts , thats so expensive

The wolf guard is another history, 9 Wolfguards with 8combi-weapon, one wolfguard on tda with power axe and heavy flamer, and the drop pod 257 pts, the wolves keep the upper hand, you have again, counterattack, one 2+/5++ sv and one power weapon, for 108 point less than the sternguard, thats a win in cost-benefit , the stern guard have special amunition, the wolf guard have hairy brass balls , they dont need them, they can have more melee weapons with that 108 points or maybe buy some plasma pistols or maybe some storm shieds, even with one less men, and only because to have access to the heavy flamer, the wg are more costeffective, drop another man and join a wolf priest with pe and give the hole squad combi-plasma and, instead the heavy flamer, give them the assault canon, and you have a really dakka unit that can kill almost everything in just 1 volley of firing...
They keep the title as a really good drop pod assault army, considering that is a 5thed codex

Nevermind.

 anyeri wrote:
*snip*

You need to ensure you play to the strengths of the SM's. Wolfs have bolt pistols, counterattack and fancy cc upgrades. With SM you need to make use of the chapter tactics, relentless grav weapons, MC flamers/meltas etc etc

I'm loving this as a list building exercise, hopefully we can have a best of drop summary at some point!

Also, don't forget we're not supposed to be listing points :-)

gmaleron wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:


A) No.

The point of a pod list isn't to get as many pods on the table as possible, it's to get as many marines where you need them as possible. Putting combat squads in pods means you're paying for extra pods that you neither want, nor need.

This is wrong, completely. The whole point of a Drop Pod army is to Alpha Strike the first turn and do as much damage as possible. Spamming 5 man squads with special weapons is a VERY effective tactic as it creates so many targets for your opponent to shoot at, intercept ect. that no matter what some are going to survive. I ran a list at 2000pts. with x13 drop pods and wiped out a very good Tau army with it, he could not kill everything as there was to much on the table.

I find this hard to believe. Unless the Tau player just wasn't good. I know my Tau list wouldn't bat an eye at 7 drop-pods landing on turn 1, because you'd drop into a kroot screen and all that alpha-striking would be spent killing 20 cheap models, after which, the rest of the army's firepower would cripple you.

5-man spam squads mean you're paying a 35 point tax for each 80 point payload. Pods just aren't all that useful once on the ground, and their stormbolters aren't adding to your capabilities. This is simply inefficient. I've seen how successful pod lists work in competitive environments (GTs and the like), and min-sized squads just doesn't get it done, at least not in the last edition, and I see no reason to believe that would start to be effective now.

Consider that, given the list you present below, I can combine

6x

-x5 Tac Marines
*w/ Melta
-Pod

Which costs you 115 points/pod, for a total of 690 points, into:

3x

x10 tac marines, w/ melta & combi-melta
- Pod

Which costs me 195 each, or a total of 585.

I save 100 points. I can buy an assault marine pod with dual flamers for 95, and have 5 points left over, maybe meltabombs for the assault sgt.

What do I lose? 2 pods w/ stormbolters, and 3 non-alpha-strike melta shots. I gain 5 more bodies, 3 bolters and 2 flamers (and a meltabomb).

You had 11 pods, meaning you got to land 6 on turn 1, assuming these would be the 3 sternguard and 3 tacticals. I've got 9 pods, so I get to land 5, now 3 sternguard and 2 tactical. We've got the same sternguard, but I'm dropping 20 tactical marines to your 15. I can actually take more melta shots against more targets off the drop than you can. I can also alter my combat squads at deployment time, so that I'm doubling up the meltas where needed and leaving 5-man bolter squads to handle scoring drops. Or I can swap out a tac pod for that dual-flamer pod against infantry heavy opponents. I have more flexibility, more bodies, and better alpha-strike capability. You have more immobile pods.

---

A comment on your list:

just2fierce wrote:

4 Tactical Marines and Sergeant
Flamer, combi-flamer
Drop pod
120 points

Unless you're relying on these for scoring, you can do this sort of pod much cheaper with assault marines;

4 assault marines + Sgt
2 flamers
free drop pod
95 points.

That's a 25 point discount. What's more, I think the assault marines synergize better with the CC HQ units (they were going in this pod, yes?) . Those 25 points can then go into that sgt to give him a power fist or something.

Just for giggles, don't forget the deathstorm drop pod from Imperial armor. I kinda like the idea of taking it over the thunderfire cannon. It seems to fit more in a way.

 anyeri wrote:

 Super Ready wrote:
I agree on Salamanders and actually reckon they'll do better than Space Wolves for it. It's all down to that alpha strike. Sternguard should be given heavy flamers and a couple of combi-flamers for anti-infantry, with the bolters firing either ignores cover or 2+ wound - Tactical squads should be given melta for armour. Just use those rerolls to take out as much as is possible, barring poor dice or *really* spread out enemy deployment you should have a great advantage from the start.

Thunderfires should be left to fire last to tackle anything left - if there's a dangerous unit set to counter-attack they can use Tremor to hopefully stop them from charging, and with Sternguard the flamers should help there too.

While Sternguard are more expensive than combi-armed Wolf Guard the latter don't get the heavy flamer, and the Tac squads should be just a little cheaper than Grey Hunters, so the points cost isn't an issue. If you've done enough damage on the drop then the risk of counter-attack that Space Wolves get to laugh at shouldn't really matter much anyway.

A sm taq squad, with 10 men strong with two flamers, normal sgt with combi-flamer and drop pod, they are 195 pts, 205 if you give them two meltas

A grey hunters pack, 10 hunters strong, with two flamers and the drop pod, they cost 185 pts, with one less flamer, if you give them the two melta 190 pts, you have one less special weapon because the lack of the sgt, but you have counterattack and 2A on each grey hunter, if you toolup the pack is more expensive
Here is other, 10 gh, 2 flamers, plasma pistol and the drop pod, 200 pts, same like before, 205 with meltas
If you want a real assult force 10 Gh, 2 flamers, power axe, wolf standard, mark of wulfen and the drop pod 230pts, 235 pts with melta, thats give you, a hole squad with 2A base, rerolls of ALL 1´s in one assault phase per game (that mean you reroll 1´s to hit, to wound, armour save, inv save, and, if you give them with biomancy, feel no pain) a power weapon and a beast with d6+1A with rending, just for 35 more poinst than the tac squad, that a huge difference betwen the gh and the tac, the gh keep the title of best close quarter unit

10 Sternguar, 9 combi-weapons, heavy flamer and the drop pod, 365 pts , thats so expensive

The wolf guard is another history, 9 Wolfguards with 8combi-weapon, one wolfguard on tda with power axe and heavy flamer, and the drop pod 257 pts, the wolves keep the upper hand, you have again, counterattack, one 2+/5++ sv and one power weapon, for 108 point less than the sternguard, thats a win in cost-benefit , the stern guard have special amunition, the wolf guard have hairy brass balls , they dont need them, they can have more melee weapons with that 108 points or maybe buy some plasma pistols or maybe some storm shieds, even with one less men, and only because to have access to the heavy flamer, the wg are more costeffective, drop another man and join a wolf priest with pe and give the hole squad combi-plasma and, instead the heavy flamer, give them the assault canon, and you have a really dakka unit that can kill almost everything in just 1 volley of firing...
They keep the title as a really good drop pod assault army, considering that is a 5thed codex

SM tac squads cannot take 2 flamers and a combi-flamer, it's 1 special, 1 heavy, and 1 combi.

Any love for an Imperial Fist drop list? I was thinking that the bolter drill and Tank Hunters would be pretty good.

I want to make a drop list as well, but want to make it a little more CC oriented. At first i though Templars, but I want to be able to take librarians in the list if I felt the need without taking allies.

yeah, I was just taking it for another scoring unit but the Assault squad being cheaper is just as good and better suited for that role. Sicarius and Tigurius work well together, imo.

thanks redbeard, I'm going to make that change.

 Redbeard wrote:

gmaleron wrote:

 Redbeard wrote:


A) No.

The point of a pod list isn't to get as many pods on the table as possible, it's to get as many marines where you need them as possible. Putting combat squads in pods means you're paying for extra pods that you neither want, nor need.

This is wrong, completely. The whole point of a Drop Pod army is to Alpha Strike the first turn and do as much damage as possible. Spamming 5 man squads with special weapons is a VERY effective tactic as it creates so many targets for your opponent to shoot at, intercept ect. that no matter what some are going to survive. I ran a list at 2000pts. with x13 drop pods and wiped out a very good Tau army with it, he could not kill everything as there was to much on the table.

I find this hard to believe. Unless the Tau player just wasn't good. I know my Tau list wouldn't bat an eye at 7 drop-pods landing on turn 1, because you'd drop into a kroot screen and all that alpha-striking would be spent killing 20 cheap models, after which, the rest of the army's firepower would cripple you.

5-man spam squads mean you're paying a 35 point tax for each 80 point payload. Pods just aren't all that useful once on the ground, and their stormbolters aren't adding to your capabilities. This is simply inefficient. I've seen how successful pod lists work in competitive environments (GTs and the like), and min-sized squads just doesn't get it done, at least not in the last edition, and I see no reason to believe that would start to be effective now.

The Tau player was quite good thank you (has won a few tournaments at my FLGS and we are a very competitive and very good game store) however he does not run a Kroot Screen as he does not like Kroot. That being said he did have x3 Riptides, x6 Broadsides and a ton of Firewarriros and I was able to take it to them thanks to some risky drops that paid off and good rolls when it came to taking down his Riptides. Just because people do not play the way you do does not make them "not good" Tau players and you can be skeptical all you want. The fact is spamming multiple small units does and can work. I never said I was knocking the x10 man TAC squad as that is all I used to run, however being able to spam a few units of x5 man pods works very well, maybe not against some armies but it can be quite effective

Razerous wrote:

 anyeri wrote:
*snip*

You need to ensure you play to the strengths of the SM's. Wolfs have bolt pistols, counterattack and fancy cc upgrades. With SM you need to make use of the chapter tactics, relentless grav weapons, MC flamers/meltas etc etc

i know the sm have another strenghts, but he is making a comparison between grey hunters and tac squad, and wolfguard and sternguard, i know you have to make the best of the advantage and disadvantege of your units, the fact is that Super ready is suggesting that the new sm are much better, on point-effencency thant the wolves on drop pod lists, even with imperail fist and bolter drill the wolves make a better job on closequarter combat, just join a rune priest with adivination to a 9 grey hunters pack and they overcome a tac squad on bolter fire, even with a boost of any kind inside the new codex; besides been a old codex, the space wolves keep the step with this edition , well, obviosly, the flyers still the head ache of the space fleasacks

Someone a lot more knowledgable than me needs to crunch a lot of numbers, because right now I can't figure out if Pod Wolves are better than the best SM Pod list. Heck I can barely do the pros and cons.

Wolves:

Pro:
Army wide counter-attack
Two specials in their 'Tac' squads, the second of which is free points-wise (means two marines firing specials w/o snapfire on the drop, not just one)
Elite marines (wolfguard) have MUCH cheaper combi-weapons
Rune Priest are cheap and nasty

Cons:
No combat squadding
No rerolling combact tactics


Someone better than me should do the pros and cons of SM compared to SWs





Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Redbeard wrote:

Unless you're relying on these for scoring, you can do this sort of pod much cheaper with assault marines;

4 assault marines + Sgt
2 flamers
free drop pod
95 points.

See, there you go. That beats SW hands down for flamers. GHs need 10 guys (and 185) points to bring two flamers. Wolf guard can sort of do it with 5 guys (either two combi-flamers or a combi-flamer and a TDA WG with a heavy flamer) but both options cost more than SM assault marines. Whoops, forgot WG can be purchased in squads of 3. 3 WG, two combi-flamers and a drop pod comes to 99 points. Still more expensive than the 5 assault marines and they are only one shot.

Sicarius
Ironclad w/two heavy flamers in a pod
10 Tactical Marines, melta, multi-melta, combi melta in a pod
10 Tactical Marines, melta, multi-melta, combi melta in a pod
10 Tactical Marines, melta, multi-melta, combi melta in a pod
10 Tactical Marines, melta, multi-melta, combi melta in a pod
10 Tactical Marines, melta, multi-melta, combi melta in a pod
Thunderfire cannon in a pod
Thunderfire cannon
Thunderfire cannon

1711 or so. I had another pod with the TFC but I realized... 8 is as good as 7 for pods and there's no reason to waste points on an empty drop pod.

I do like having the option for dropping a TFC in my opponent's deployment zone to catch my opponent in the crossfire and score a pretty easy linebreaker.

I wonder...

135 points for a drop pod and TFC
or
95 points for that assault marine squad in a pod
or
105 points for that squad with a combi flamer in a pod

What do we think?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Sicarius
Ironclad w/two heavy flamers in a pod
10 Tactical Marines, melta, multi-melta, combi melta in a pod
10 Tactical Marines, melta, multi-melta, combi melta in a pod
10 Tactical Marines, melta, multi-melta, combi melta in a pod
10 Tactical Marines, melta, multi-melta, combi melta in a pod
10 Tactical Marines, melta, multi-melta, combi melta in a pod
5 Assault Marines, flamer, flamer, combi flamer in a pod
5 Assault Marines, flamer, flamer, combi flamer in a pod
Thunderfire cannon in a pod

It should be 1750 on the nose. What do we think?

15 meltas (5 of which are combis and all reroll to hit once per game)
6 flamer templates (2 of which are combis)
2 heavy flamer templates
1 AV 13
9 AV 12
1 TFC which, if dropped first turn, would make for a great linebreaker.

Everyone's LD10 for morale and pinning checks.

What do people think about deathwind launchers? I'm always tempted to toss some on my pods just to make them something that my opponent needs to account for. For the price of a basic tac marine, a S5 large blast isn't too shabby. Not being able to fire on the turn it lands is a pain, but it can create a legitimate threat to infantry blocks and at least an annoyance to tough infantry, MC, and side/rear armor of things within 12". Not a big threat, but not a big cost either.

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
What do we think?

Second list is better. Too much melta, not enough anti-horde in the first list. Why all melta though? Why not some plasma? Rapid fire at close range could come in handy.

Super Newb wrote:

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:
What do we think?

Second list is better. Too much melta, not enough anti-horde in the first list. Why all melta though? Why not some plasma? Rapid fire at close range could come in handy.

Good call. One plasma gun is only 5 points more and combi-weapons all count the same. Sicarius gives one squad tank hunters which would be interesting with grav/plasma weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I think we can all agree that multi-meltas are better than plasma cannons in this instance?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I rechecked the points and, by my count, there are 5 points to spare.

I am looking into the deployment of the army and seeing a problem... Sicarus needs to be on the table for his reroll to reserves. I need all TAC squads on the first turn and, because of that, I don't have any room for Sicarius. It was so much easier when DPs could fit 12...

So, drop the multi-melta guy from a squad, give the meltaman a plasma gun and put combi-plas on the sergeant. Maybe a power weapon if the points are there. I really want to put the meltagun back on the Dread and give him 2 hunter-killers.

Still playing with points. But, I want to be able to make maximum affect from Sicarius's FC. Maybe a powersword on the sergeant... who knows.

Played my first game tonight against a grey knights player who made some mistakes. He ran a crowe purifier list so no warp quake.

Quickie lists from memory:
Me
Tiguirus and the Ultramarine detachment: 3 5 man tactical squads with melta combi melta, 1 with a missile launcher with flakk, all in pods.
Command Squad for Tiggy with plasma guns, apothecary and storm shields pod
Legion of the Damned 5 man, multimelta, grav pistol and power fist.
2 hunters
Librarian Fireboy of the Salamanders detachment
Assault squad and 2 flamers, pod.
sternguard with combi flamers and 2 heavy flamers, pod.
command squad with 5 flamers, pod.
scout squad, cloaks and rifles

Him: 2 rifleman dreads, 1 purifier squad in rhino, 1 of their dev squads in rhino, 1 purifier squad in razorback/split, Crowe, ADL, DreadKnight with shunt. I want to say 1 more purifier squad behind the adl, but I don't remember killing it.

The player was rusty, but he is a multiple tournament winning player. He came in second at Adepticon this year.

Not gonna post a full battle report, just my observations. We both made dumb mistakes...I dropped Tiggy and the plasma gunners in to wipe out a razorback instead of gunning down an exposed squad ( and I dropped right in close to the grey knight gunline). He shunted over to flame that squad, instead of assaulting my left flank, and he forgot to assault Tiggy and the plasmagunners.

I called Ultra rerolls on the drop, didn't need to use it because all my meltas hit on the drop. Casting prescience on the plasma gunners helped take 3 wounds off the dreadknight. used storm of fire on the LOTD and they finished off the Dreadknight and it helped them.

Rerolls on the drop with flamers was FANTASTIC. He did make a lot of saves, but against anything squishy, it's aces. The sternguard with 2 heavy flamers and the combi shots with the ap3 shots took out hhalf a 8 man Purifier squad. The 5 man command squad with the libby using flame breath ( did not reroll that) wiped out a 5 man purifier squad and put a wound on Crowe, the 2 assault flamers killed 3 purifiers.

The 8 pods were great. Blocked his LOS to the Relic, allowing my backfield squad to seize it and run.

At the end of the game I had all 8 pods, the snipers, 1 tac squad, 1 lone tac marine. He had Crowe and 3 purifiers left, and a rifleman dreadnought. It sounds close, but I had it wrapped up by turn 4. Had my LOTD sergeant not whiffed on 1's with a power fist and then a 2 on an invuln, I might not have lost as much as I did.

Lessons learned: LOTD are very good...3++ is a huge bonus.
Loved the 2 command squads, but yes, I know they are pricey. Have to figure out a way to get the same punch cheaper.

Not a powerful enough army to table someone, and losing tac squads hurts. if this had been an objective game, I may not have won. ( without the relic the game would have been 2 to 2 instead of 5 to 2.)

I'm thinking 10 man tactical squads with plasma cannons to replace the command squad with plasma, 10 man sternguard squad split to replace the flamer command squad. Now if I can jimmy a larger LOTD squad....

I think there are powerful arguments for SW, UM and Sallies. As defined by the effectiveness of their alpha strike, I think the C:SM builds have the edge based upon the ability to combat squad thus becoming both more resilient and more effectively targeting the enemy.

I await a rebuttal but I'm trying to put a cap on this so we can determine a "winner."

Thatguyoverthere11 wrote:

5 Assault Marines, flamer, flamer, combi flamer in a pod

You cannot do that; Assault Squad Sergeant cannot take a combi-weapon.

Played another game, same list but with 5 more LOTD.

The alpha strike was good against my opponent, opening 3 out of 4 transports. His counter fire knocked out a lot of my tacticals though.

The game went back and forth, but here's what cost me the game: 2 storm ravens came on, and my AA could not knock them out. He kept wiping out the squads with the Relic.

My Legion of the Damned held up a chapter master, libby and small honor guard for the whole game. His LOTD made me sacrfice units to stop them from also potentially wiping out the Relic holding squad.

LOTD are reallly good to take. But again, my troops were too easy to wipe out.

I'm gonna say take SW or Sallies with Vulkan. The advantage over UM with Tiggy is that you can send in the assault elements ( elite, FA and HS) in first to damage the enemy, then troops to grab objectives.

Anti-Air is a pretty big issue when it comes to this kind of army, really you just have to focus on everything else but dealing with x2 Storm Ravens must have sucked .

I just played an 1000pt. game today testing out a list that I have posted in the army list section which it can be found here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/553704.page

I ran with the Imperial Fist Chapter Tactic list and took it against a local IG player. Dont remember his exact list but a quick overview:

-Company Command Squad
-Blob Squad behind Aegis with Commissar think it was x30 guys?
-3 or 4 Heavy Weapon Teams
-A platoon with a squad of x20 guardsmen who screened Aegis Defence line so I could not land in front of it and wipe them out.
-Manticore
-Aegis Defence Line with Quad Gun

Seeing how he was screeining his Aegis Line I landed both TAC squads farther back then he anticipated and they spent the turn unloading rapid fire bolters into the screeing squad inflicting a good chunk of damage and more importantly clearing zones for my Sternguard + Commander to land. The Heavy Bolters + Imperial Fists Chapter Tactic is pretty awesome.

My Thunderfire Cannons WRECKED both of his Autocannon teams as well as taking out a massive chunk of infantry in the process. His turn the Manticore made a bloody crater of one of my Combat Squads and his lascannon Heavy Weapons teams all combined to drop a Thunderfire Cannon. However on my turn my Sternguard landed and unleashed their Heavy flamers slaughtering both Lascannon teams and my TAC squads finishing off both the Guard Squad and a multi-melta sniping the manticore. Opponent called the game after that!

Are there no considerations for IH users to take up a MotF and bring the hurt with up to six Ironclads? That's six 3HP IWND AV13s with a combination of flame and melta.

I'm strongly considering running a drop pod list that relies on air support rather than tfcs...soon as I get to a version I like I'll post it up

The delivery system needed for ironclads is the issue. I'd run something like 6 ironclads in pods with double hk's and your choice of melta or heavy flamers, 2 5 man scouts in speeders with heavy flamers, an IH Motf, aegis line with quad gun, 3 5 man assault squads with 2 flamers in pods.

That way all 6 ironclads come down turn 1 and you can begin taking full advantage of the IH chapter tactics.

Not sure of its effectiveness, but it sounds fun to play with.

Well, by my count that build would allow "only" 4 of the Ironclads to come in T1 as you would have 8 pods. Also, can Land Speeder Storms take double HF? I don't have my codex in front of me but I thought it just had te Blind blast thing.

The LSS can take a HF, and that build was 9 pods.

If you wanted all 6 on turn one that's 11 pods, I doubt you can fit that in sub 2k.

EDIT: Don't know what I was thinking with the 6 coming down turn one, lol

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Are there no considerations for IH users to take up a MotF and bring the hurt with up to six Ironclads? That's six 3HP IWND AV13s with a combination of flame and melta.

Only problem I see with this build is an underwhelming alpha strike. Tough as nails but that's at most 6 melta shots turn 1 plus a few HKs if you opt to spend the points on them. Against mechdar you'll be lucky to take down 1 serpent and the rest will just hop to the other side of the board.

 The Shrike wrote:
Well, by my count that build would allow "only" 4 of the Ironclads to come in T1 as you would have 8 pods. Also, can Land Speeder Storms take double HF? I don't have my codex in front of me but I thought it just had te Blind blast thing.

Actually, it's 9 pods, so 5 would come down turn 1.

Still alot of AV13 to deal with on turn 1.

Man it would be fun as hell to drop 6 Dreds of any type on someone's front lines.

"Look at my super cool gun line! Wait, what the hell is that? Oh no, flamers! Ah you found my only weakness!"

And then the laughter with an s ensues.

I think putting 6 dreads in a pod is unnecessary. Combine the close-range AV13 iron clads, in drop pods, with foot-slogging ranged dreads.

Do you want Salamanders (with/without Vulkan) for twin-linked flamer and melta (only melta, sadly, for vehicles). Or IH for some lovely IWND vehicles.

However, using 6 dreadnoughts forces you to rely on allies or FA for AA.

BronzeJon wrote:
The delivery system needed for ironclads is the issue. I'd run something like 6 ironclads in pods with double hk's and your choice of melta or heavy flamers, 2 5 man scouts in speeders with heavy flamers, an IH Motf, aegis line with quad gun, 3 5 man assault squads with 2 flamers in pods.

That way all 6 ironclads come down turn 1 and you can begin taking full advantage of the IH chapter tactics.

Not sure of its effectiveness, but it sounds fun to play with.

Dev cents and an ironclad in a stormraven delivery system after the T1 alphastrike as a second wave

The loadout should look something like this.

685pts

stormraven gunship (230)
-twin linked missile launcher
-extra armour

•centurion devestators (320)
-4 suits
-omniscope
-2 gravcannon & amp
-2 missile launcher

•Ironclad dreadnought (135)

Its a bit pricey though.

We're starting to stray here. A list with a 8-900 point Stormraven bomb with a few drop pods thrown in is not a Drop Pod list. It's a Deathstar list with pod support.

Let's get a final vote. No justification necessary, just submit your opinion in the form of a one-word response for antiquity:

Ultramarines (w/ Tiggy)
Salamanders (Please specify Vulkan or not)
Crimson Fists (Pedro-wing)
Iron Hands (Ironclad spam)
Space Wolves

Thanks dakkans! I think we've enshrined some good info here.

As for me, I vote Salamanders (with Vulkan), for the pure alpha-strike.

What? Blood Angels don't make the final 5?

Just kidding. I think the Salamanders with Vulkan list or the Pedro Wing Crimson Fists look the best. Named Characters in 40k tend to bring something extra (which is why the Iron Hands lose out here, I think. Really? They couldn't work in a special named Character for this book that got a special $115 cover variant?)

pedro wing, alying with tiggy. duh.

Pedro wing

 Largeblastmarker wrote:
pedro wing, alying with tiggy. duh.

Seen this work to, you take Pedro-Wing (x3 Sternguard, x2 Tacs minimum) and then ally Tig with a single TAC squad (his squad) and a Devastator Squad in a Drop Pod. He pops the TAC tactic first turn, then the Devastator Tactic the second turn.

In Pedro-Wing, do you go maxed combi-weapons, mix in special weapons or just go special ammo?

Pedro-wing as an alpha strike may not involve MAX combis, but I think at least 5 for the purposes of voting.

Keep the votes coming!

 The Shrike wrote:
We're starting to stray here. A list with a 8-900 point Stormraven bomb with a few drop pods thrown in is not a Drop Pod list. It's a Deathstar list with pod support.

Let's get a final vote. No justification necessary, just submit your opinion in the form of a one-word response for antiquity:

Ultramarines (w/ Tiggy)
Salamanders (Please specify Vulkan or not)
Crimson Fists (Pedro-wing)
Iron Hands (Ironclad spam)
Space Wolves

Thanks dakkans! I think we've enshrined some good info here.

As for me, I vote Salamanders (with Vulkan), for the pure alpha-strike.

SW. The WG combi-weapon bombs probably makes them best at alpha strike

UM plus Tigurius for me.

I think SW plus UM w/Tiggy could be pretty awesome.