I recently played a lot of Dark Crusade and Soulstorm and I've got to say Tau have the hardest hitting answer to every situation, and without ever using Kroot, they are really very enjoyable to play, so much firepower and later with two Drone Harbingers making waves of drones to scout and distract while Fire Warriors and Hammerheads melt everything.
And not to mention the Crisis Suit in The Last Stand.
I previously liked Imperial Guard due to their long range, tanks and artillery by they got nothing on Tau.
Are there any books I can read about the Tau Empire?
P.S.
Not to mention their rationalist and inclusive philosophy of Greater Good which I really like, they are like the Star Trek Federation, only better.
Some Black Library novels deal with Tau. Courage and Honour should be one, there's also Firecaste, Shadowsun and The Greater Good.
The Tau Empire Codex provides a lot of background on them too, ofc.
Their tech isn't always as impressive on the "real" 40K battlefield. They rely a lot on the interaction between units and units supporting each other - not so different from a real army, which does make it easier to relate to them. When units with Markerlights provide other units good shots they are very impressive. Once you've killed the MLs the rest of the army kind of falls apart, or at least is a lot less effective. Which is when the Tau (in the fiction) would fall back, regroup and make a new plan.
The big problem with the Tau is that they have a very small sphere of influence. They are very powerful in their own space, but they aren't galaxy threatening. Yet. The big deal here is that Tau don't always consolidate their gains. They will engage and destroy enemy defenses on certain planets, but not move to occupy them. This makes the Tau a very mobile force, but it presents difficulties for them when they are directly attacked outside of their territory. They lack the infrastructure and defenses that would be gained by fortifying battlefields they had won.
The strength of the Tau is potential. Could the Imperium wipe them out if they pushed as hard as they could? Absolutely. But they won't. There are too many other enemies for the Imperium to focus on the Tau. And all the tau need is time. Their ability to take a loss and then learn from it and use that loss to innovate is what makes them strong. A few worlds lost to the tyranids? Oh look! A method for the tau to cloak a planet from the hivemind's senes! Do the Tau have this technology? No. Can you reasonably see them developing it given enough time? Without a doubt.
They take this approach with all of their problems. While they're certainly not a threat to the greater Imperium, who can say what technology they'll develop in 20 years? In 50 years? In 500 years? Innovation is their strength and they are sure to make use of it.
They're not like The Federation. They will often use military force to conqueror worlds to add to their empire. You have to choose to be part of The Federation voluntarily.
Well they are known to have a significantly shorter lifespan than humans and therefore they should mature faster as well. Their popularion is probably growing very quickly but they will still not be a threat to the galaxy in 50 years but in 100 or 200 years Their empire will probably be much larger. However Jareddm was only discussing their technological evolution not the actual growth of their population.
But humans would obviously be better off within the Tau Empire, it always bothered me with Imperial Guard that they treat humans as expendable garbage, You even have in Dawn of War a commissar ability to execute so the other guardsman would fight harder. That's so pathetic, uncivilized and low tech.
I'd love for the Imperium to organize tons of assassins to just find and eliminate the Tau Ethereals. Without that caste, the rest of the race falls into infighting and renegade behavior. Combine that with all the pressures they now face with hive fleets and all the attention they've received from shooting their big mouths off around the eastern rim - they're done. Farsight lost his Aun, they started thinking for themselves, so they just do whatever they please now. Without their leader caste, they'd do the Imperium's job for it.
The logistics behind such a plan would be as complex as a full-scale war, though. They'd need a constant source of information on Ethereals' whereabouts and all. I'm sure it could be done.
TiamatRoar wrote: I don't think the Tau reproduce fast enough to be a threat in 50 years or even 500 years. They're cows, not rabbits, you know.
Their life cycle is 1.5 times shorter than human one, so they should reproduce 1.5 times faster.
Cyten wrote: But humans would obviously be better off within the Tau Empire, it always bothered me with Imperial Guard that they treat humans as expendable garbage, You even have in Dawn of War a commissar ability to execute so the other guardsman would fight harder. That's so pathetic, uncivilized and low tech.
You know, Tau do treat all of their auxilaries as expendable too. Hell, they even treat themselves as expendable. Even the Ethereal would willingly sacrifice his life if the Greater Good demands it. The only difference is that Tau do care for what they expend their lives, and know that while expendable their soldiers are also expensive and should be spent wisely. Still, Fire Warriors aren't some super-elite like Aspect Warriors or Space Marines, and usually suffer heavy casualities, so only the strongest survives first four years of active duty to pass the first trial of fire.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: I'd love for the Imperium to organize tons of assassins to just find and eliminate the Tau Ethereals. Without that caste, the rest of the race falls into infighting and renegade behavior.
Farsight Eclaves are the example of the Tau Empire without Ethereals: add a bit of a warrior pride and freedom fighters, take away 1984-style totalitarianism and social engeneering. Assasinating all the Ethereal would probably make the Empire even better in long terms.
jareddm wrote: The strength of the Tau is potential. Could the Imperium wipe them out if they pushed as hard as they could? Absolutely. But they won't. There are too many other enemies for the Imperium to focus on the Tau. And all the tau need is time. Their ability to take a loss and then learn from it and use that loss to innovate is what makes them strong. A few worlds lost to the tyranids? Oh look! A method for the tau to cloak a planet from the hivemind's senes! Do the Tau have this technology? No. Can you reasonably see them developing it given enough time? Without a doubt.
They take this approach with all of their problems. While they're certainly not a threat to the greater Imperium, who can say what technology they'll develop in 20 years? In 50 years? In 500 years? Innovation is their strength and they are sure to make use of it.
And then a Maynarkh level Dynasty wakes up and eradicates the entire empire, or the full onset of the Tyranid species wipes them away in a tidal wave of flesh, or a Chaos Black Crusade crushes them, or the Tau lose the War of Dakka. Or someone trips in the Celestial orrery and the Tau empire goes boom.
TiamatRoar wrote: I don't think the Tau reproduce fast enough to be a threat in 50 years or even 500 years. They're cows, not rabbits, you know.
Their life cycle is 1.5 times shorter than human one, so they should reproduce 1.5 times faster..
I honestly don't see 1.5 times as fast a reproduction cycle to be anything worth worrying about in the next couple of centuries, especially compared to the reproductive cycle of something like an ork (most orks don't even live to 40 due to their lifestyle. Thraka at 70 is considered an old geezer by ork standards). Maybe a millennia or so...
We also don't know Tau reproductive capacities. For all we know, they're only "in season" for two years out of the 40 they live, and only ever bear one child.
"The Greater Good" is actually a Ciaphas Cain Novel; it has perhaps a chapter or two of material with Tau in it, then switches to (another) Cain-vs-Tyranids story.
It's a good novel, but not a 'Tau Book, from a Tau Perspective'.
About the only ones that would match that description, would be "Shadowsun", "Santcuary of Wryms", and "Patient Hunter".
"Shadowsun" is a shorter-than-average novel, while the other two are micro-stories with roughly 1,000 word counts.
Cyten wrote:
P.S.
Not to mention their rationalist and inclusive philosophy of Greater Good which I really like, they are like the Star Trek Federation, only better.
Well, they're like the Star Trek's Federation, but with social engineering, non-mobile caste systems limiting personal freedoms, constant pervasive propaganda, all to condition a population to believe in the utter rightness of an aggressive expansionist empire building.
Basically The Greater Good is a sham. The Tau are heavily drawn of Huxley's Brave New World's rigid social castes, replete with socially engineered subspecies that are optimized for their specific task in the society, and a rigid ruleset that prevents any cross-class mobility, and prevents any cross-class breeding and dilution of the idealized subspecies. Plus, each caste is utterly convinced that they have the best job and that they are doing the best they can do for society. If you want to read about the Tau, read Aldous Huxley's novel Brave New World.
Psienesis wrote: For all we know, they're only "in season" for two years out of the 40 they live, and only ever bear one child.
Whoever wrote this piece of fluff, he was a total idiot.
No one has written that fluff. No one has, as far as I'm aware, written anything about Tau family life or their reproductive rates. Hence "for all we know". I don't, personally, believe that, but we don't really have any direction from the studio. Personally, given the relatively slow rate of expansion of the Tau Empire, coupled with its ability to support its armies in the field, I think it more likely that Tau are fertile from probably whatever passes from their teen years until near the end of their lives. So we're talking probably 25 to 30 years of viability. Given their evolutionary track from a plains-dwelling herbivore, they probably don't have multiple births (twins and the like), but may bear more than one child through their lives.
... and, to be honest, I've probably just put more thought into the subject than GW has.
Herbivores would never evolve into sentient species. This is a circle of the hunt that make apes into humans - protein diet allow to grow more advancd brain, while more advanced brain allow to hunt more effective. For the herbivore there is no need to be inteligent, as their survival rarely highly depend on making non-standard decisions. The side branches of the human evolution who switched back to vegetarian diet was less intelligent than their omnivorous progenitors and eventually gone extinct.
The fact that Tau have hooves doesn't change anything - there was hoofed predators on Earths in previous periods, and there is hooved omnivores on Earth right now. The only thing that hooves indicate, is that Tau parent species was used for a long races over the planes, savannas or deserts
Dantioch wrote: Well they are known to have a significantly shorter lifespan than humans and therefore they should mature faster as well. Their popularion is probably growing very quickly but they will still not be a threat to the galaxy in 50 years but in 100 or 200 years Their empire will probably be much larger. However Jareddm was only discussing their technological evolution not the actual growth of their population.
This would be true if the Tau had access to a means of practical FTL(compared to other races)
As it is, their method of interstellar travel is slower and has less maximum range than other races.
It takes them months to travel between adjacent star systems in their own quadrant, and their quadrant has a very dense packing of stars compared to the rest of the Galaxy.
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Mezmerro wrote: Herbivores would never evolve into sentient species. This is a circle of the hunt that make apes into humans - protein diet allow to grow more advancd brain, while more advanced brain allow to hunt more effective. For the herbivore there is no need to be inteligent, as their survival rarely highly depend on making non-standard decisions. The side branches of the human evolution who switched back to vegetarian diet was less intelligent than their omnivorous progenitors and eventually gone extinct.
The fact that Tau have hooves doesn't change anything - there was hoofed predators on Earths in previous periods, and there is hooved omnivores on Earth right now. The only thing that hooves indicate, is that Tau parent species was used for a long races over the planes, savannas or deserts
I believe that the official fluff is that, while Tau are descended from herbivores, they are an Omnivorous species. With a greater emphasis on the plant part of their diet.
Yeah, but vegetarianism and veganism is a social choice among humans who still descended from their omnivorous ancestors.
Given the Tau have no personality other than what has been issued to them by the Ethereals, it's easy to believe that the Tau diet is one of social impetus, rather than a product of evolution. Look at domesticated cats. They still hunt other animals, yet rarely eat what they kill because they've been conditioned to know there is food back at the house which is less effort to eat and always provided.
From what I remember, the Tau breed at pre-appointed times of the year with pre-determined partners in a ritual that has pretty much none of the love or passion that goes into human or Eldar copulation.
But of course the Tau, unlike the Humans or Eldar, do not have a concept of romantic love.
Btw if Imperial Guard made just a single technological upgrade en mass - equipping all guardsman with hellguns and Kasrkin armor it would drastically boost their lethality, combined with their long range tanks. At least I got that impression from Dark Crusade and Soulstorm, it just melted battlesuits and infantry alike.
On the other hand In Dawn of War 2 Retribution the Stormtroopers were super squishy, bad looking and with negligible damage output...
TiamatRoar wrote: I honestly don't see 1.5 times as fast a reproduction cycle to be anything worth worrying about in the next couple of centuries
I assume that's because you don't know what is an exponential growth.
Exponential growth won't have time to take effect in just a century, in a situation where THERE IS ONLY WAR, so your assumption is both wrong and irrelevant.
Cyten wrote: Btw if Imperial Guard made just a single technological upgrade en mass - equipping all guardsman with hellguns and Kasrkin armor it would drastically boost their lethality, combined with their long range tanks. At least I got that impression from Dark Crusade and Soulstorm, it just melted battlesuits and infantry alike. On the other hand In Dawn of War 2 Retribution the Stormtroopers were super squishy, bad looking and with negligible damage output...
You do realize, that hellgun is twice as expensive, half as reliable and eat triple more the energy per shot, while packing like 50% more firepower, and storm trooper carapace armour cost whooping dozen times more than a standard flak armour, while being only twice as effective? For the army that number trillions every penny matters, especially when equipping trrops with better armour and weapon make them much less cost-effective (considering guardsmen themselves are basically free)
In the fluff, the Tau are more or less annoying little buggers for the Imperium at large. The Damocles Gulf Crusade did a ton of damage, but they pulled off when more important things popped up.
The Imperium clearly lacks a total understanding of the Tau Empire, which makes sense, seeing as they don't understand a lot about many of the enemies they fight. Pretty much no one except a few people who have been deemed waaaayyyy too interested have seen anything threatening from Necrons (and BA are bros with them), and I doubt the Imperium knows the full extent of the Tyranid invasion.
I think if they ever managed to have full information concerning the Tau, they might just say "hey, Calgar buddy-ol-pal, please go exterminatus planets A through Z in sector whatever." And Calgar being Calgar he'd probably screw it up for some noble reason, but if he actually gave 2 craps he'd have that done in about 6 weeks. Poof, no more Tau.
Unless another obnoxious warp storm pops up. Stupid plot armor.
Alternatively, the Imperium is smarter than they look and know all about the Tau and Tyranid threats, and realize the former would be a useful speed bump to the latter. After all, that super hive fleet is supposedly crashing into the galactic east in, what, 100 years or so? Tau expand one sphere and a dozen or so worlds in about that time. This is an Imperium that loses entire sectors due to rounding errors, I'm sure they would be willing to sacrifice a couple subsectors to slow down a Tyranid fleet.
DogofWar1 wrote: In the fluff, the Tau are more or less annoying little buggers for the Imperium at large. The Damocles Gulf Crusade did a ton of damage, but they pulled off when more important things popped up.
The Damocles gulf crusade hardly overtook the half of Dalyth sept world, and it toke them years and hundred thousands of lives. Then conflict went to stalemate, as Imperium forces found their supply lines too stretched and too damaged byt the constant stealth/pathfinder/kroot harras. Hardly any side was able to actually win on Dalyth, unless Imperium launch another Crusade there to double its forces.
And to launch exterminatus you need to enter planet's orbit first, which is not a easy task, as all Tau sept worlds have devencive space stations with HUGE firepower - one of the said stations was responsible for crippling almost entire Damecles Crusade fleet, so they was forced to stuck in close defensive formation above landing zone. If one tried to launch exterminatus on all Tau worlds he would run out of ships till the third sept.
DogofWar1 wrote: In the fluff, the Tau are more or less annoying little buggers for the Imperium at large. The Damocles Gulf Crusade did a ton of damage, but they pulled off when more important things popped up.
The Damocles gulf crusade hardly overtook the half of Dalyth sept world, and it toke them years and hundred thousands of lives. Then conflict went to stalemate, as Imperium forces found their supply lines too stretched and too damaged byt the constant stealth/pathfinder/kroot harras. Hardly any side was able to actually win on Dalyth, unless Imperium launch another Crusade there to double its forces.
And to launch exterminatus you need to enter planet's orbit first, which is not a easy task,
To land troops on the surface requires entering orbit first too, and they seem to have managed to do that...
Cyten wrote: Btw if Imperial Guard made just a single technological upgrade en mass - equipping all guardsman with hellguns and Kasrkin armor it would drastically boost their lethality, combined with their long range tanks. At least I got that impression from Dark Crusade and Soulstorm, it just melted battlesuits and infantry alike.
On the other hand In Dawn of War 2 Retribution the Stormtroopers were super squishy, bad looking and with negligible damage output...
But when you equipped them with mass Meltaguns they incinerated anything, up to and including Kyras in his one winged angel mode.
DogofWar1 wrote: In the fluff, the Tau are more or less annoying little buggers for the Imperium at large. The Damocles Gulf Crusade did a ton of damage, but they pulled off when more important things popped up.
The Imperium clearly lacks a total understanding of the Tau Empire, which makes sense, seeing as they don't understand a lot about many of the enemies they fight. Pretty much no one except a few people who have been deemed waaaayyyy too interested have seen anything threatening from Necrons (and BA are bros with them), and I doubt the Imperium knows the full extent of the Tyranid invasion.
I think if they ever managed to have full information concerning the Tau, they might just say "hey, Calgar buddy-ol-pal, please go exterminatus planets A through Z in sector whatever." And Calgar being Calgar he'd probably screw it up for some noble reason, but if he actually gave 2 craps he'd have that done in about 6 weeks. Poof, no more Tau.
Unless another obnoxious warp storm pops up. Stupid plot armor.
Alternatively, the Imperium is smarter than they look and know all about the Tau and Tyranid threats, and realize the former would be a useful speed bump to the latter. After all, that super hive fleet is supposedly crashing into the galactic east in, what, 100 years or so? Tau expand one sphere and a dozen or so worlds in about that time. This is an Imperium that loses entire sectors due to rounding errors, I'm sure they would be willing to sacrifice a couple subsectors to slow down a Tyranid fleet.
Or they know enough about the Tau to want to hit them hard, but realize at a time of 13th Black Crusades, Waaagh Gazghuls and Hive Fleets there are far greater priorities for their very limited supply of Astartes.
Tau expansion into Imperium territories is done at a very slow and deliberate pace. This is intentional by the Tau because it allows them to consolidate their gains (something the Imperium has difficulties with) and because they do not want to trigger a strong Imperium reaction. The Tau understand that the Imperium is far larger than they are, but also less unified and far slower to react. So they keep a low profile and keep the Imperium's gaze firmly on more immediate issues.
And of all Tau, only Shas and Kor castes get involved in said war, even then not all of them.
No. The Tau's approach to galactic expansion requires ALL castes to fully function and flow together nicely. They rely on Water for trade and negotiation (which is always the first and primary focus), they rely on Air to pilot all their fleets and aircraft, without them there's no expansion to begin with. They rely on Fire as their military, obviously. They rely on Earth to design and build/grow everything, and finally the Ethereal as government. Take any singly caste out of the system and the Tau aren't waging war on anything, rather they wither and die. Quickly.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: To land troops on the surface requires entering orbit first too, and they seem to have managed to do that...
Thats what I said - you can exterminate one world for the price of cripplin most of your ships, then if you get lucky, you even can exterminate one more world, sacrificing most of your fleet. And if you get all the lusk in the world on your side the remainder of your fleet could succeed at desperate suicidal attack on the third world. Congratulations, you just sacrificed entire crusade fleet for glassing three planets and killing dozen of billions of tau, while there is Waagh Ghazkul, 13-th Black Crusade and Tyranic wars where this fleet would help you saving dozen of your own planets and trillions of imperial citizens. Ant the worst part is the fact that Tau would terraform those planets back to inhabitable in few decades and repopulate them in few centuries like nothing happened.
Mezmerro wrote: Herbivores would never evolve into sentient species. This is a circle of the hunt that make apes into humans - protein diet allow to grow more advancd brain, while more advanced brain allow to hunt more effective. For the herbivore there is no need to be inteligent, as their survival rarely highly depend on making non-standard decisions. The side branches of the human evolution who switched back to vegetarian diet was less intelligent than their omnivorous progenitors and eventually gone extinct.
The fact that Tau have hooves doesn't change anything - there was hoofed predators on Earths in previous periods, and there is hooved omnivores on Earth right now. The only thing that hooves indicate, is that Tau parent species was used for a long races over the planes, savannas or deserts
Go tell that to GW, who has a fething sentinent fungus as one of the most powerful races in the galaxy. Orks are neither omnivorous nor carnivorous. Their entire diet is squig-based, which is yet another fungus.
Psienesis wrote: Go tell that to GW, who has a fething sentinent fungus as one of the most powerful races in the galaxy. Orks are neither omnivorous nor carnivorous. Their entire diet is squig-based, which is yet another fungus.
Well Orks are genetically engineered species, rather the result of evolution. They have the best excuse for being unrelistic.
Veteran Sergeant wrote: To land troops on the surface requires entering orbit first too, and they seem to have managed to do that...
Thats what I said - you can exterminate one world for the price of cripplin most of your ships, then if you get lucky, you even can exterminate one more world, sacrificing most of your fleet. And if you get all the lusk in the world on your side the remainder of your fleet could succeed at desperate suicidal attack on the third world. Congratulations, you just sacrificed entire crusade fleet for glassing three planets and killing dozen of billions of tau, while there is Waagh Ghazkul, 13-th Black Crusade and Tyranic wars where this fleet would help you saving dozen of your own planets and trillions of imperial citizens. Ant the worst part is the fact that Tau would terraform those planets back to inhabitable in few decades and repopulate them in few centuries like nothing happened.
The Tau space assets are abysmal compared to the fleets of the other races. It is heavily implied both in the novels (in Shadowsun, a single Imperial planetary defense laser was such a threat that Shadowsun herself had to commando her way into it least that thing would wipe out the whole Tau fleet - IIRC the human in her team even notes that the laser would barely scratch an Imperial warship) and in the codex/Farsight supplement. Maybe Battlefleet Gothic mentions something about how the newest and bestest Tau battleship could be a match for an Imperial heavy cruiser or something like that. So I wouldn't count on the Tau Air caste to stop a space-bound invasion ...
The thing is, it's tough to know how an Imperial Fleet with the sole goal of exterminatus would do again the Tau.
They clearly could/would eliminate the outer worlds and more minor, less defended worlds. Against larger Tau sept worlds it might be as you said, that they would lose many ships, to blow the planet.
The thing about it though, is that eliminating a dozen smaller worlds and several major sept worlds would be a major blow to the Tau Empire, one that would take many decades and tons of resources to replace. And that's likely a crusade of the Damocles Gulf size, not a larger one, or one equipped with the sole purpose of delivering exterminatus bombs.
Perhaps my statement was a bit overreaching, but an Imperial Fleet with the sole purpose of destroying as many Tau worlds as possible would likely, at a minimum, set the Tau back decades if not centuries, as they'd be losing significant resources at all levels.
The thing is, in the fluff, the Imperium either; doesn't have the resources at the moment to spare to do this, lacks the will to give up those worlds entirely, seeking to retake them, or doesn't understand the full extent of the Tau empire. Or it might be a combination of those factors.
AtoMaki wrote: The Tau space assets are abysmal compared to the fleets of the other races. It is heavily implied both in the novels (in Shadowsun, a single Imperial planetary defense laser was such a threat that Shadowsun herself had to commando her way into it least that thing would wipe out the whole Tau fleet - IIRC the human in her team even notes that the laser would barely scratch an Imperial warship) and in the codex/Farsight supplement. Maybe Battlefleet Gothic mentions something about how the newest and bestest Tau battleship could be a match for an Imperial heavy cruiser or something like that. So I wouldn't count on the Tau Air caste to stop a space-bound invasion ...
1) Humans must be joking about defence laser shrugging off imperial ship's armour: in quite similar way single defense laser on Vraks forced imperial forces to land on the opposite side of the planed and set a twenty-year long siege.
2) In BFG KorVatra ships have the same armour as the Imperium ones except Imperial hallmark reinforced front. New generation KorOrVesh ships are actually equally armoured.
3) The shtick of Tau navy is heavy focused long range firepower and one of the best torpedoes in the galaxy. They lack the short range firepower and maneuvreability but are faster than imperial ships (which is not a big achievement, considering imperial fleet is the slowes one in the Galaxy)
4) Actually most important, on Dalyth it was not the tau ships but the space station what deal the most damage. And much like imperial space stations tau ones are massively durable and pack insane firepower. Except with higher range. There is hardly any way to destroy one without sufferung heavy loses, if it is supported by other ships..
Psienesis wrote: Go tell that to GW, who has a fething sentinent fungus as one of the most powerful races in the galaxy. Orks are neither omnivorous nor carnivorous. Their entire diet is squig-based, which is yet another fungus.
Well Orks are genetically engineered species, rather the result of evolution. They have the best excuse for being unrelistic.
Eldar are also rumored to have had a hand in the development of the Tau. Fluff seems to be that they are omnivores, but at the same time it is quite possible they were engineered.
4) Actually most important, on Dalyth it was not the tau ships but the space station what deal the most damage. And much like imperial space stations tau ones are massively durable and pack insane firepower. Except with higher range. There is hardly any way to destroy one without sufferung heavy loses, if it is supported by other ships..
Considering the space stations are likely relatively static defences would it not be relatively simple to hit them cyclonic torpedoes? I wonder how much they cost. Also, if your only motive is exterminatus they can attack any weaker areas (one would imagine the more important cities and installations to be heavier defended). Aside from that, in one of the Fantasy Flight Games RPGs the Deathwatch (I think) have kill-ships which are cloaked ships which sneak into orbit, enact exterminatus and slingshot out of orbit again (I think it's in the Deathwatch rulebook).
SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: Considering the space stations are likely relatively static defences would it not be relatively simple to hit them cyclonic torpedoes?
Cyclonic torpedoes have limited range (lower than Tau torpedoes and space grade ion cannons) and could be intercepted by the small craft or just heavy battery fire. You need dozens to pass through the proper space station defense (no matter, Tau, Imprial, or even Orky), and dozen cyclons cost like a two cruizers. It would be even worse, if enemy station is backed by the swarms of interceptors, and Tau and Orky stations usually are.
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SomeRandomEvilGuy wrote: Aside from that, in one of the Fantasy Flight Games RPGs the Deathwatch (I think) have kill-ships which are cloaked ships which sneak into orbit, enact exterminatus and slingshot out of orbit again (I think it's in the Deathwatch rulebook).
Cloaking might work against humans or orks, because their auspecses are too primitive to even detect not-cloaket ships on their tail. Even while Tau (or Eldar, or Necton) couldn't detect the hull, they would definatelly detect the heat tray of the plasma engines. Only way to slip through the proper space defense is the Dark Eldar way - instead of hiding they just mimic other ship class heat trey and redioreflection, so enemy could take them for their own ship.
Except that's not how their cloaking systems work. It's a Deathwatch item that was adapted from Eldar technology for use by humans (the AdMech gets to do this stuff if it's for the DW... it will eventually filter back to the rest of Humanity).
Using the advantage of, well. space, they pop out of the warp at high speed, cut the engines, and then drift in-system (thing about space is... you don't slow down). Once they get close enough, they launch the cyclonics, fire up the engines, then turn-tail and run while the planet shatters behind them.
Also, Imperial auspex can, most certainly, detect plasma output. This is how the Imperial Navy tracks ships in space, and detects them hiding amongst asteroids and nebulae and the like. The ships simply put out so much heat, radiation and radio waves that its almost impossible to miss (in normal operating conditions).
The reason the Imperium's vessels can't detect a ship directly behind them is the same reason our subs, historically, couldn't do it either: they're hiding in your own wake.
Though these ships are not automatic "I win" buttons for the Imperium (line your systems with mines, you'd be surprised what flies into them), it does indicate that the Imperium has more options than just Crusade fleets and hundreds of millions of Guardsmen's lives to throw at the enemy.
The various Assassin Temples have standing assignments to kill or capture Ethereals, the Inquisition is cracking down on planets that have detected Tau ships in the vicinity, to ensure that Planetary Governors are not treating with the Tau.
While the UM might work well alongside the Tau against a common enemy, this does not mean that they're simply going to let them take Imperial Worlds from the Segmentum Ultima.
Psienesis wrote: While the UM might work well alongside the Tau against a common enemy.
Where did you get that fluff about UM working with Tau?
Umm, the Codexes?
Lexicanum:
At some point, the Tau sent an expeditionary force to the Imperial planet Malbrede where they came into conflict with the Ultramarines Space Marine Chapter in 936.M41. However, the planet proved to be a cursed Tomb World when the fighting of the Tau and the Ultramarines awakened the sleeping Necrons from their tomb beneath the surface. In an effort to combat this terrible threat to both races, the Tau and the Ultramarines combined their forces to defeat the Necrons. Once the conflict was over, the Tau were allowed to evacuate their forces by the Ultramarines Chapter Master Marneus Calgar who proceeded to destroy Malbrede through the use of an Exterminatus order.
In my opinion, this hardly qualifies as an instance that justifies them to be 'battle brothers', but hey, GW wants to sell models.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: In my opinion, this hardly qualifies as an instance that justifies them to be 'battle brothers', but hey, GW wants to sell models.
It actually more qualifies for a desperate alliance like with BA-Necron alliance against Nids.
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Kain wrote: If I remember, the Hierarchy of best to worst at space combat on a per ship and per ton basis is
Well, at least eldar-imperial-chaos part is totally wrong. Eldar ships are bad. Really bad. Despite their holofields they still can go down to a single broadside, and their speed depends on the solar wind, limiting their maneuvreability. Eldar fleet is only good due to theur genius admirals and the webway jumps alloswing hem to bypass cordons. Chaos ships on the other hand are superrior to imperial ones in everything byt sheer durability, which matter little, as with their superior firepower, speed and range they could keep distance and dictate the flow of the battle.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: In my opinion, this hardly qualifies as an instance that justifies them to be 'battle brothers', but hey, GW wants to sell models.
It actually more qualifies for a desperate alliance like with BA-Necron alliance against Nids.
Oh, I agree. That particular scenario is easily a desperate alliance.
Tau is hard to classify, as they are a lot like the 40k Daemons: a few bad rolls and the Tau fleet self-destructs. They are so overtly dependent on ordnance than a few failed reload rolls can totally wreck the damage output of the fleet and you don't want to use your normal weapons (as they are pretty bad).
EDIT: Er, nevermind about the below. My memory must be off (I could have sworn there was a description of a battle that used the wording "Side-by-side", instead of "combine" like the necron one did.
The scenario is a desperate alliance, but the battle tactics weren't. It's stated they fought "side by side". That description is only allowed by allies-of-convenience at the bare minimum, and can possibly be interpreted as "squadded together", which is battle-brothers levels of tactics.
The Eldar vessels in FFG's Rogue Trader game will fly circles around any Imperial vessel of the same class, and their plasma-torpedoes will seriously feth an Imperial ship up.
Yeah, they're fragile... but you gotta hit 'em, first.
In BFG, Tau ships really rely on their hanger bays of Mantas as well as Torpedoes to do the fighting. Their ships themselves have ork levels of armor and not as many weapons as comparable vessels from other factions.
If an Imperial ship gets a broadside off on a Tau ship its toast!
PrehistoricUFO wrote: I'd love for the Imperium to organize tons of assassins to just find and eliminate the Tau Ethereals. Without that caste, the rest of the race falls into infighting and renegade behavior. Combine that with all the pressures they now face with hive fleets and all the attention they've received from shooting their big mouths off around the eastern rim - they're done. Farsight lost his Aun, they started thinking for themselves, so they just do whatever they please now. Without their leader caste, they'd do the Imperium's job for it.
The logistics behind such a plan would be as complex as a full-scale war, though. They'd need a constant source of information on Ethereals' whereabouts and all. I'm sure it could be done.
Tau do just fine without Ethereals, see the Farsight Enclaves. They're very well run, with the castes working together just fine. It isn't dystopian or anything. In fact, you could say they are somewhat better run in some respects, as Farsight is far more open and sharing with his people (and has come to the defense of the Tau Empire on at least a few occasions).
So, your plan wouldn't work or amount to anything significant. The Tau are perfectly capable now of running the show by themselves.
Grey Templar wrote: In BFG, Tau ships really rely on their hanger bays of Mantas as well as Torpedoes to do the fighting. Their ships themselves have ork levels of armor and not as many weapons as comparable vessels from other factions.
If an Imperial ship gets a broadside off on a Tau ship its toast!
Because, not unlike Wing Commander, 40k is a bit stuck in the WW1/WW2 fleet mentality. Carriers wreck everything unless you can get a battleship in close to broadside something. Which, if you have to broadside anything, you are doing it wrong in space combat. It makes for a thrilling read, but idiotic that you would have to fight that way when you have tech capable of obliterating planets, achieving close to or post light speeds, etc.
In reality, given Tau methods of communication, you should read the Man-Kzin books. A single coms satalite obliterates a Kzinti battleship. The power required to send out a signal from such an outpost makes a naval grade laser look like a pop gun.
Yeah, assassinating the Ethereals will not bring about the end of the Tau empire. Especially not as long as you have iconic leaders like Farsight and Shadowsun to fill the void.
A Town Called Malus wrote: Yeah, assassinating the Ethereals will not bring about the end of the Tau empire. Especially not as long as you have iconic leaders like Farsight and Shadowsun to fill the void.
Well, while the Tau as a species might endure, the Empire wouldn't survive the death of all Ethereals.
Shadowsun might be able to keep things together for a little while, but eventually they would split into various warring factions. Each believing it is the only one who truly fights for the Greater Good.
The Tau, as a species, are deathly afraid of losing the Ethereals. That fear would become mistrust of other Tau, and would cause the fracturing of the Empire, in the event of losing the Ethereals.
Shadowsun (and any Tau besides Farsight) would die of old age soon enough if she had to manage the Tau Empire. Only reason why she hasn't died of old age yet is because she spends her time in-between battles in stasis.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: I'd love for the Imperium to organize tons of assassins to just find and eliminate the Tau Ethereals. Without that caste, the rest of the race falls into infighting and renegade behavior. Combine that with all the pressures they now face with hive fleets and all the attention they've received from shooting their big mouths off around the eastern rim - they're done. Farsight lost his Aun, they started thinking for themselves, so they just do whatever they please now. Without their leader caste, they'd do the Imperium's job for it.
The logistics behind such a plan would be as complex as a full-scale war, though. They'd need a constant source of information on Ethereals' whereabouts and all. I'm sure it could be done.
Tau do just fine without Ethereals, see the Farsight Enclaves. They're very well run, with the castes working together just fine. It isn't dystopian or anything. In fact, you could say they are somewhat better run in some respects, as Farsight is far more open and sharing with his people (and has come to the defense of the Tau Empire on at least a few occasions).
So, your plan wouldn't work or amount to anything significant. The Tau are perfectly capable now of running the show by themselves.
Grey Templar wrote: In BFG, Tau ships really rely on their hanger bays of Mantas as well as Torpedoes to do the fighting. Their ships themselves have ork levels of armor and not as many weapons as comparable vessels from other factions.
If an Imperial ship gets a broadside off on a Tau ship its toast!
Because, not unlike Wing Commander, 40k is a bit stuck in the WW1/WW2 fleet mentality. Carriers wreck everything unless you can get a battleship in close to broadside something. Which, if you have to broadside anything, you are doing it wrong in space combat. It makes for a thrilling read, but idiotic that you would have to fight that way when you have tech capable of obliterating planets, achieving close to or post light speeds, etc.
In reality, given Tau methods of communication, you should read the Man-Kzin books. A single coms satalite obliterates a Kzinti battleship. The power required to send out a signal from such an outpost makes a naval grade laser look like a pop gun.
Fighters aren't really good in space battles. You see, ships with more engines will be accelerating faster, which means huge battleships will actually be faster than fighters.
Also, there is a substantial gap between the firepower needed to damage 40k capital ships and the firepower strike craft in 40k can bring to bear. This means you'll need to launch multiple waves to deal substantial damage to said space ships.
Also, in 40k space battles are considered at knife fighting distances if you're within a planetary diameter of your enemy. Opening engagements often happen over literally millions of kilometers apart, to the point where one has to account for the visual delay of the speed of light.
Those who are fond of boarding and ramming tend to have the numbers to get that close (Orks, Tyranids) and also tend to have some way to mitigate long ranged fire to force enemies to play by their rules.
Grey Templar wrote: Their ships themselves have ork levels of armor and not as many weapons as comparable vessels from other factions.
I think you missed the part where where broadside batteries could switch to fire front ark, which means their frontal firepower is much better than imperial broadside, and unlike Orks they could switch back to having decent side firepower.
Grey Templar wrote: Their ships themselves have ork levels of armor and not as many weapons as comparable vessels from other factions.
I think you missed the part where where broadside batteries could switch to fire front ark, which means their frontal firepower is much better than imperial broadside, and unlike Orks they could switch back to having decent side firepower.
And yet the Tau had trouble stopping a tiny hive fleet in space. And the Tyranids have the worst ships man for man.
Kain wrote: Fighters aren't really good in space battles. You see, ships with more engines will be accelerating faster, which means huge battleships will actually be faster than fighters.
Go read about insertion and relatiosips between force and acceleration. It's mid school physics, IIRC
Kain wrote: Also, there is a substantial gap between the firepower needed to damage 40k capital ships and the firepower strike craft in 40k can bring to bear. This means you'll need to launch multiple waves to deal substantial damage to said space ships.
The strengths of space bombers is that they can target vunerable parts of the ship and bypass void shields, so they don't need to have the firepower of escort ships. Even single fighta-bomma wing could damage bridge, gun, launch bay or plasma engine with well timed bombing run, not to mention Manta with it's godlike firepower, as it's railguns are quite capable to pierce escort ship armor and hit plasma core, thus one-shoting entire ship.
Kain wrote: Fighters aren't really good in space battles. You see, ships with more engines will be accelerating faster, which means huge battleships will actually be faster than fighters.
Go read about insertion and relatiosips between force and acceleration. It's mid school physics, IIRC
Kain wrote: Also, there is a substantial gap between the firepower needed to damage 40k capital ships and the firepower strike craft in 40k can bring to bear. This means you'll need to launch multiple waves to deal substantial damage to said space ships.
The strengths of space bombers is that they can target vunerable parts of the ship and bypass void shields, so they don't need to have the firepower of escort ships. Even single fighta-bomma wing could damage bridge, gun, launch bay or plasma engine with well timed bombing run, not to mention Manta with it's godlike firepower, as it's railguns are quite capable to pierce escort ship armor and hit plasma core, thus one-shoting entire ship.
And yet the Tau had trouble stopping a tiny hive fleet in space.
Mostly because Hivemind developed ion-impenetrable armour, which renders Tau lance equivalents useless.
I'll see your middle school physics and raise you a youtube video.
Also, Mantas aren't particularly built for rapid acceleration or maneuverability. They are going to be left in the dust by larger ships or get one shotted by lance batteries with their extinction event causing firepower or just focused on by other turrets. Carriers aren't a particularly smart idea in space, which is why the Imperium regards Admirals who utilize them as somewhat eccentric as they don't really do anything homing torpedoes don't.
And Hive Fleet Gorgon, with the exception of Hive Fleet Naga, is the smallest major Hive Fleet on record; and it drove deep into the Tau Empire and took a massive empire wide effort to stop.
Kain wrote: I'll see your middle school physics and raise you a youtube video.
Nice video, pal, but author certainly don't know how physics scale. Reactive engine power depend on the jet stream speed (which is largely defined by fuel) and jet nozzle square, so they multiply at X² while ship's mass multipy at X³. So the bigger is ship the more engines it need (i'm speaking about % to ships mass) to maintain the same acceleration. 40k space bombers and interceptors have massive engines usually taking from 20 to 50% of the craft mass, while space ships having much smaller part of their mass in engines. And speaking about space laser weapons, the difficult part is to lock the target as it move fast can can maneuver, while Imperial, chaos and Ork defensive batteries have no targeting AI and are aimed manually by poorly trained crew or gun servitors. [offtop]where I live there is so called "science olympiad" competitions, and I held 1-st place in physics on town, and district stages and 3-rd on region stage for four years. I may lack the dictionary in English physics, but I assure you I know this discipline quite well[/offtop]
Kain wrote: Also, Mantas aren't particularly built for rapid acceleration or maneuverability.
The only reason Mantas aren't supersonic in the atmospheric fights is because the are forced to spend too much energy for antigravitic drive. And even then they are as fast as most impeial and orky attack craft.
Kain wrote: They are going to be left in the dust by larger ships or get one shotted by lance batteries with their extinction event causing firepower or just focused on by other turrets.
Lances batteries have a hard time hitting even escort class ships. Lances are too few and have too low rate of fire and accuracy to be used against enemy bombers. Imperial shis usually use small slug-thrower turrets (like autocannons) and their own interceptors to protect against bombers, but Manta superior armour, deflector shields and insane amount of defensive LB burstcannons renders both of this methods almost useless.
Kain wrote: Carriers aren't a particularly smart idea in space, which is why the Imperium regards Admirals who utilize them as somewhat eccentric as they don't really do anything homing torpedoes don't.
Imperial fleet traditions are stuck in the Great Crusade times, where space battles was quick and brutal due to better engines, better guns and overly bigger fleets. In the grim darkness of 40k where imperial ships are slowest and the most short ranged, almost any fleet save Orks and Tyranids would run around imperials and harass them with ordnance UNLESS imperials have the carriers they so much regard.
Cyten wrote: But humans would obviously be better off within the Tau Empire, it always bothered me with Imperial Guard that they treat humans as expendable garbage, You even have in Dawn of War a commissar ability to execute so the other guardsman would fight harder. That's so pathetic, uncivilized and low tech.
You know, Tau do treat all of their auxilaries as expendable too. Hell, they even treat themselves as expendable. Even the Ethereal would willingly sacrifice his life if the Greater Good demands it. The only difference is that Tau do care for what they expend their lives, and know that while expendable their soldiers are also expensive and should be spent wisely. Still, Fire Warriors aren't some super-elite like Aspect Warriors or Space Marines, and usually suffer heavy casualities, so only the strongest survives first four years of active duty to pass the first trial of fire.
I don't think 'expendable' is the right word for the way Tau regard their soldiers. I think they see them as a resource to be spent wisely and prudently, (as you said.) Needlessly expending the lives of their troops is considered utterly disgraceful. Whereas the imperium just doesn't care. They'll happily throw thousands of their soldiers' lives away just to inconvenience a Chaos advance, to no real effect.
I disagree about Firewarriors not being elite. Guardsmen are recruited in early adulthood. Eldar Aspect warriors start training whenever they feel like it's time. Space Marines begin inception at an early age. But Tau Firewarriors begin their military career the moment they are born. Battlefield tactics, military organization, rigorous mental and physical military training are, quite literally, the only things a Firewarrior has EVER known. On the tabletop, this single-mindedness of military purpose and supreme coordination manifests in their 'Supporting Fire" special rule. Something no other army has the training or battlefield coordination to duplicate.
In the heat of battle, when there are enormous, blade wielding monstrosities trying to thunder their way into your line, setting up overlapping fields of fire requires nerves of steel and coordination between units that borders on prescience.
I know people think Firewarriors die fast, but trust me as a Dark Eldar player, receiving a saving throw versus small arms fire should never be taken for granted.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: I'd love for the Imperium to organize tons of assassins to just find and eliminate the Tau Ethereals. Without that caste, the rest of the race falls into infighting and renegade behavior.
And I'd love for the Tau to train up a super elite strike force to eliminate the Emperor quietly and efficiently.
The logistics behind either scenario are astronomical to the point of hilarity.
This is true, but not true at the same time. A servitor is just as good as a targeting AI, possibly better.
You have a human brain that has been reprogrammed specifically for targeting. That's going to be much superior than anything we have today. And we have some scary accurate targeting capabilities with our 21st century technology.
No, they aren't. Humanity has always had the answer to everything - Space Marines. Why else did the GC advance so far, so fast? Because supermen were leading the charge, smashing everything aside. Tau don't have anything like that, in scale or numbers, yet.
Cyten wrote: LOL, I just read a part of Tau codex and in it the Tau compare IG to Orks in terms of how they throw meat shields to absorb damage.
Definitely don't like IG anymore, it's just too primitive.
That is really the charm of the IG though. They aren't intended to be the super smart, super tactical, super strong army, but their down to earth and simple nature lets them stand out in a universe filled with bigger then big "I am so awesome look at me punch demons in the face" characters. Don't disparage the guard because they are primitive, that is the best thing about them.
TheSGC wrote: Tau don't have anything like that, in scale or numbers, yet.
Battle suits. Better armour, better firepower, almost equaly disciplined and fanatical, MUCH cheaper and available, and despite common belief even better in close combat (as while they lack the skill they can compensate with superior durability and strength. Don't look at the tabletop, where one Crisis cost as three or four marines - from the background position marines are ridiculously scarce (like less then one per planet), while even small mining colonies of Tau Empire usually have at least two battlesuit teams, and major sept wourlds usually have tens of thousands garrisoned on them.
And like crisis teams are better than tactical marines, other battlesuits are also better than marines of similar roles:
Stealths > Scouts
Hazards >> Assault Marines
Broadsides >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Devastators
Riptides >>>>> Centurions
The only analogue they don't have are Terminators, mostly because Tau don't need slow and insanely durable melee-oriented infantry.
And just like Crisises are more available than tac marines, all of above save Riptides are more available too
Anfauglir wrote: I always considered a Crisis Suit a middle ground between a Terminator and a Dreadnought, fluff wise.
They are actually roughly equal to normal power armored marines according to the fluff. Big power armored space marines to be exact. They never had an edge over the Astartes PA in terms of efficiency - all they have is an advantage in size (so they can have more extra systems). Just look at the Centurions: they are essentially equal to a Crisis suit in terms of size and they have more guns, more armor and more durability. Just stick a jump pack on them and you have your uber-Crisis suit.
Tau stuff is most assuredly not cheaper than IG stuff in-universe. Don't confuse points cost for cheapness.
A boltgun costs one point and a flamer five, but in-universe, the flamer is cheaper.
Guard vehicles are almost as good as Tau vehicles-- better in some ways (like durability), worse in others (like mobility)-- but they're able to manufacture them far more cheaply and in far greater numbers than the Tau could even comprehend, and they don't require a lot of technical knowhow to build, use, and maintain, unlike Tau machinery.
In truth, I'd actually say that many Imperial pieces of equipment are more technologically advanced than Tau ones, or at the very least, far superior in their design overall.
Or, to give an IRL comparison-- Germany during WWII was doomed the moment that Russia was capable of mobilizing and America entered the war. Russian and American tanks may not have been "better" in pure combat statistics (it's debatable), but they were far better designs overall once cost, ease of use, and required training comes in to play. German superiority in weapons tech simply wasn't enough.
Nor is the Tau superiority enough. In the end, the only thing that saves the Tau is that they're such a small, irrelevant threat to begin with. The fact that the Tau are incapable of building the infrastructure needed for massive, galaxy-spanning empires certainly doesn't help.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: I'd love for the Imperium to organize tons of assassins to just find and eliminate the Tau Ethereals. Without that caste, the rest of the race falls into infighting and renegade behavior. Combine that with all the pressures they now face with hive fleets and all the attention they've received from shooting their big mouths off around the eastern rim - they're done. Farsight lost his Aun, they started thinking for themselves, so they just do whatever they please now. Without their leader caste, they'd do the Imperium's job for it.
The logistics behind such a plan would be as complex as a full-scale war, though. They'd need a constant source of information on Ethereals' whereabouts and all. I'm sure it could be done.
Tau do just fine without Ethereals, see the Farsight Enclaves. They're very well run, with the castes working together just fine. It isn't dystopian or anything. In fact, you could say they are somewhat better run in some respects, as Farsight is far more open and sharing with his people (and has come to the defense of the Tau Empire on at least a few occasions).
A Town Called Malus wrote:Yeah, assassinating the Ethereals will not bring about the end of the Tau empire. Especially not as long as you have iconic leaders like Farsight and Shadowsun to fill the void.
I disagree. As someone pointed out, the Tau would survive as a race I'm sure, but their ideologies would fly all over the place. Farsight and Shadowsun are indeed the perfect examples as you provided (not to your advantage though, strangely). They both subscribe to different schools of thought and if they theoretically became the prime candidates for leadership, the Tau would immediately fall into civil war. Give it time and it wouldn't be an Empire anymore, just a fractured remnant of what once was. Those are only a couple of personalities, just imagine how many up and coming leaders would attempt to seize power?
PrehistoricUFO, keep in mind, that farsight Enclaves keep runing perfectly fine without Farsight (when he was in self-appointed exile), so they don't need his leadership to just survive and function. Even when he returned, Farsight and the Eight doesn't became supreme rulers of enclaves, and just lead it's military, while other castes sustain what is the 40k closest thing to democracy.
Farsight is still alive however. That is enough to keep them together, because they are united behind their leader.
the Farsight Enclaves are also small compared to the Empire itself. the Empire has lots of Septs, and plenty of military leaders who would assert their own version of the Greater Good.
Farsight is actually a perfect example of why the Empire would fracture without the Ethereals.
If your assertion were correct, when Farsight's Ethereals were killed, he simply would have returned to the Empire. But he didn't.
Melissia wrote: Tau stuff is most assuredly not cheaper than IG stuff in-universe. Don't confuse points cost for cheapness.
Tau stuff is expencive points-wise, but fluff wise... lets talk.
Forget about space marines - they are HUGELY expencive to even compare with crisis suits, lets talk about stormtroopers.
Like Fire Warriors, stormtroopers are usually trained to be soldiers from the childhood, which means they are similarily expencive. Unlike stormtroopers, however, crisis pilots are quite numerous - all you need to become one is to survive 4 years of active duty as Shas'La, pass the first trial by fire, than survive few years as Broadside pilot (which is much easier than to survive as a frontline trooper).
Stormtrooper armour is quite expensive and rare by the imperial standards. They aren't even mass-produced in the most cases and rather handcrafted, which results for them to sost like 12-20 times more than flakk armour, and beeing reserved solely for the storm troopers, so grenadier veterans and ovicers should contend with cheaper and slightly worse carapase armour.
Tau Crisis suits on the other hand are mass-produced. In fact, Ethereals even need to hold the suit production as there are more suits than available pilots (which say a lot, considering there should be billions of pilots available, considering relatively low mortality within Fire Warriors). Not like Crisis suits are cheap but Tau economics surely can hold that price and even more.
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Grey Templar wrote: Farsight is still alive however. That is enough to keep them together, because they are united behind their leader.
They was sure he was dead before his reapperance - after all he was missed for like a two Tau lifespans.
A species the only bore one child per couple would never survive. Even two would be cutting it fine.
assuming that they do not produce aesexually and only one sex in the Tau is able to have children (their women folk, we know that they have women, but i'm not sure if they talk about who can have kids in the fluff, upon further research it looks like they reproduce similarly to humans).
this means that for every two Tau, they need to produce more than two more Tau in order to sustain themselves as a species over time. Two individuals need to replace themselves, and then create an extra one or two.
It's actually interesting because a lot of countries in the real world are losing population right now because people just aren't having kids like they used to...one must wonder what the birth rate is in the 40k universe to sustain the trillions and trillions that they consistently refer to. I guess in the grimdark future there is only baby making....oh and War!
Even if the average number of children was only a fraction over two per couple, the Imperium could still have an insane number of people getting born each year.
Lets assume that the average population of the Imperium is what the current pop of Earth is right now. With a 1% rate of increase.
7 billion people times 1 million worlds gives 7x10^15 people in the Imperium(that's 7 quadrillion people)
1% of 7 quadrillion is 7x10^13 people. That's 70 trillion people born each year in excess of what is needed to maintain a steady population
Written out longhand. That is this number.
70,000,000,000,000 potential recruits for the Imperial Guard with only a 1% population growth.
Mezmerro wrote: Tau stuff is expencive points-wise, but fluff wise...
Also expensive. They can't even afford to equip their human auxiliaries properly.
Mezmerro wrote: Like Fire Warriors, stormtroopers are usually trained to be soldiers from the childhood, which means they are similarily expencive. Unlike stormtroopers, however, crisis pilots are quite numerous
Stormtroopers and Stormtrooper equivalents (Kasyrkin et al) are more numerous than crisis pilots simply because of the pure scale of the imperium. And just because the training times are similar doesn't mean that the cost is likewise similar-- the Imperium has a long, long history of training elite soldiers like this, which could mean that they're more efficient at it... or, given the tradition-bound nature of the Imperium, it could mean that they're less efficient. We really don't know.
But I would definitely argue that they are more talented than fire warriors and suit pilots. Indeed, a Guardsman who's a veteran of a few wars is more talented than the average Fire Warrior. Humans live longer than Fire Warriors and their veterans have a longer time to gain experience, where fire warriors must rely upon training more than experience. Stormtroopers and Kasyrkin, by contrast, have both training AND experience under their belt.
Mezmerro wrote: Stormtrooper armour is quite expensive and rare by the imperial standards.
Based on what, exactly?
From the Fantasy Flight Games rpgs, Stormtrooper quality carapace armor is about... ten times as expensive as flak armor. That's ten times as expensive as a piece of armor that the Imperium can manufacture so much of as to be able to equip the entire Imperial Guard with-- it costs only a little bit more to make flak armor than it takes to make a lasgun. Indeed, it's not expensive at all really, to the point that (As shown by the tabletop) many regiments equip their elite squads with it. Indeed, entire regiments can be equipped with carapace armor, as shown by the carapace armor used by the assault regiments in the Gaunt's Ghosts novels.
That is definite indicative of mass manufacturing.
But really, mass manufacturing of expensive items is normal in 40k. A Leman Russ tank is more expensive than flak armor as well, but given the ubiquity of the design and the vastness of the Imperium, more likely than not there are more Leman Russ tanks than there are members of the Tau fire caste. Indeed, the average Imperium factory dedicated to the craft makes more Leman Russ tanks than the Tau make of their little suits, and it requires far less upkeep and training to use, and is easier to repair to boot, while being better armed and armored-- only really lacking in mobility. A sentinel might be a better comparison. But again, arguably better armored, and cheaper to produce-- sentinels are mass produced to the point that there are entire regiments of them. Sentinel pilots are extremely common as well.
Also, Tau have much shorter lives than the Humans they are fighting.
A human, who doesn't die in battle, could easily live twice what a Tau could. he could have a longer combat record than that Shas'o has been alive.
And Storm Troopers are those soldiers who have survived long enough to gain experience. His WS and BS are superior to the Crisis Suit pilot.
The Crisis suit's only advantage is equipment and protection. And hey, the Storm Trooper has a lasgun capable of blowing right through the Crisis suit's armor.
The Tau have cool stuff. They have incredible technology. That said, they're small and insignificant, the Damocles Crusade sent against them was ~30 or so IG regiments and some Space Marine support, and it nearly broke the Tau Empire. They exist because they haven't *truly* pissed anyone off yet, as the Imperium commands literally millions of IG regiments (making the 30 sent against them basically the briefest of afterthoughts) and could overwhelm the Tau Empire in hours if it really cared to and wouldn't even notice the exertion of effort needed to do so. However the Tau are not typically overtly violent usually and the Imperium's attention is elsewhere with far larger problems that the Tau can't even comprehend yet. That's part of what makes the Tau interesting, they're just learning how *big* the other powers of the galaxy are, and how brutal and ruthless they all are, and how insignificant and naieve they are next to them.
Its from the older Tau codex which gives the following information.
How many "days" it takes for T'au to orbit its star.
How many "hours" there are in a T'au day(by giving how many "hours" a Tau needs to sleep)
And finally, it says how many minutes there are in a Tau "hour".
It also gave how many "years" a tau can live.
From all this information, you could figure out a Tau would live for around 40 Earth years. Ethereals would live longer but they weren't given a hard date.
Grey Templar wrote: Its from the older Tau codex which gives the following information.
How many "days" it takes for T'au to orbit its star.
How many "hours" there are in a T'au day(by giving how many "hours" a Tau needs to sleep)
And finally, it says how many minutes there are in a Tau "hour".
It also gave how many "years" a tau can live.
From all this information, you could figure out a Tau would live for around 40 Earth years. Ethereals would live longer but they weren't given a hard date.
Found the timekeeping section but it doesn't say anything about the average Tau lifespan, just that they spend more of their day awake than we do and that their planet is in a faster orbit.
Also, in the newest codex, Puretide is described as being elderly in 731.M41. He was born in 651.M41. So a Tau is elderly at 80 years old, just like a human.
Grey Templar wrote: Farsight is still alive however. That is enough to keep them together, because they are united behind their leader.
the Farsight Enclaves are also small compared to the Empire itself. the Empire has lots of Septs, and plenty of military leaders who would assert their own version of the Greater Good.
Farsight is actually a perfect example of why the Empire would fracture without the Ethereals.
If your assertion were correct, when Farsight's Ethereals were killed, he simply would have returned to the Empire. But he didn't.
Basically this would be my response back to Mezmerro. You are able to see what I'm saying quite easily, and beat me to the punch.
Grey Templar wrote: Its from the older Tau codex which gives the following information.
How many "days" it takes for T'au to orbit its star.
How many "hours" there are in a T'au day(by giving how many "hours" a Tau needs to sleep)
And finally, it says how many minutes there are in a Tau "hour".
It also gave how many "years" a tau can live.
From all this information, you could figure out a Tau would live for around 40 Earth years. Ethereals would live longer but they weren't given a hard date.
Found the timekeeping section but it doesn't say anything about the average Tau lifespan, just that they spend more of their day awake than we do and that their planet is in a faster orbit.
IIRC that part is not in the timekeeping section. Its been a while since I looked it up and I don't have my old Tau codex with me.
I think I would like to see a rendition of the face of an Ethereal, or any other Tau for that matter, the first time they finally realize the scale of the other factions in the galaxy... whether that's the size of the Imperium, the age of the Eldar, the numbers of the Tyranid, the lengths the Necrons have gone to become what they are today, the brutality of the Orks or the cosmic weirdness of Chaos.
Just the look of that Tau experiencing a mind-blowing, pants-gakking revelation like that would be worth so very, very much.
The Ethereals know that the Imperium is huge. They'll have acquired data from all the planets they've conquered/negotiated away from it.
Also, they are fully aware of the brutality of the Orks and have a book published by Farsight on that subject.
As for the others, I'm sure they've got some inklings (except for the Necrons but nobody really knows anything about them but the Necrons themselves and possibly the Eldar).
If anyone here has played EvE, I can imagine the first Tau authority's face looking something like a new player looking at the galaxy map when they realized from their first Imperial world how big the territory is. Just kept on zooming out, and out, and out, oh look there's one section of the galaxy, keep zooming out, and out, and out, oh wow that's a lot of Imperial dots. Hey look there's our entire empire, that little tiny dot which is pretty much not visible anymore, zoom back in a bit there Johnny. . .
TiamatRoar wrote: I don't think the Tau reproduce fast enough to be a threat in 50 years or even 500 years. They're cows, not rabbits, you know.
Their life cycle is 1.5 times shorter than human one, so they should reproduce 1.5 times faster.
That is not, at all, how reproductive cycles are determined. Knowing the life expectancy of a completely unrelated specie doesn't provide any useful data.
Well, it's stated on TVtropes that the higher-up Tau know just how HUGE the galaxy/Imperium is compared to their fledgling empire but keep it under wraps so it doesn't demoralize everyone. I don't know what source the troper got that from, though, if any.
TiamatRoar wrote: I don't think the Tau reproduce fast enough to be a threat in 50 years or even 500 years. They're cows, not rabbits, you know.
Their life cycle is 1.5 times shorter than human one, so they should reproduce 1.5 times faster.
That is not, at all, how reproductive cycles are determined. Knowing the life expectancy of a completely unrelated specie doesn't provide any useful data.
Yup, Elephants live about the same length of time as humans do, but their reproductive cycle is much longer. 2 year pregnancy compared to 9 months for starters.
Vaktathi wrote: (making the 30 sent against them basically the briefest of afterthoughts)
Imprium sent everyting it can and something it cannot into Cadia defence during 13-thBC, which is only 1320 regiments, gathered throughout entire galaxy. This leave some almost areas unguarded, so entire subsectors and sectors fall under Ork, Tranid, Necron and occasional Tau attacks. Which might tell you that while having millions of regiments Imperium have quite a few to spare as it constantly wages wars against everything (unceluding itself).
To OP: In the long run the Tau are probably in a much lighter part of the gray zone than almost everyone else, and that is their merit. But , like every faction in 40k, they have their flaws.
Firstly is their social problems which are similar in nature to the Imperium's in nature. Both are a form of totalitarian government they just gloss it over. (I'd like to note that when you look at Star Trek from a more objective view the Federation becomes much more questionable and a double standard appears fast (though this shows how amazing of an indoctrination and propaganda program they have) and it is incredibly similar to the Tau's). However, in an age where issues like this are completely inconsequential due to a galaxy wide martial law decree, this is a very small issue as you just have to choose your injustice.
Secondly if their production ability. While they are apparently able to field a much higher density of high tech things than the IoM when you think about it a bit this is only logical. The reason is logistics. If I have a small force I can shell out much more per soldier than if I have a larger one.
As was pointed out earlier, A fire warrior is equipped, and trained, in a similar manner to an elite man in the imperial guard. And, fire warriors form the bulk of the Tau military while Stormtroopers are an elite troop. That being said if we run the math (below) we find that Stormtroopers are more abundant than Fire Warriors. (If anyone wishes to provide me with more accurate numbers I will, of course, replace and recalculate as my numbers are rather vague due to lack of proper sources). I am being generous to Tau (to the extent of my knowledge) to make the math easier and for arguments sake.
Earth Population (7,000,000,000) Average conscriptable population {20%} Stormtrooper to Guardsman Ratio [1/1,000,000] Tau held worlds <100> Imperial worlds |1,000,000|
Tau- (7,000,000,000) x <100> = 700,000,000,000 x {0.2} = 140,000,000,000 140 million Fire Warriors
IoM- (7,000,000,000) x |1,000,000| = 7,000,000,000,000,000 x {0.2} = 1,400,000,000,000,000 / [1,000,000] = 1,400,000,000 14 billion Stormtroopers (1.4 quadrillion Guardsmen)
One would note that the Stormtroopers outnumber Fire Warriors 10 to 1 (and the normal Guardsmen outnumber the Fire Warriors 10 million to 1) however these numbers are probably very far off in favor of the Imperium.
Assuming the IOM were able to focus their entire might on the Tau, sure.
But this is a universe of Black Crusades, Waaaghs, Hive Fleets, Hrud Migrations, Heresies, Civil Wars, Red Harvests and a hundred thousand other threats. Because of this, the near limitless numbers of the Imperial Guard are stretched thin.
Yes, the Imperium could bring enough to bear to stomp the Tau flat in a decisive way, but in so doing, they let something else go unchecked. Indeed, the effort required to destroy the Tau might be enough to allow a far more lethal threat to deal massive, perhaps even fatal, damage to the Imperium.
As it is now the Tau are relatively minor in their direct threat and they actually keep the local Orks, Tyranids and Necrons occupied. I wouldn't be surprised if ol' Calgar was propping up the Tau a bit so that he doesn't have to worry about another hive fleet coming for McRaggie for a while. Hence the Battle Brothers in the Allies Matrix.
Psienesis wrote: I think I would like to see a rendition of the face of an Ethereal, or any other Tau for that matter, the first time they finally realize the scale of the other factions in the galaxy... whether that's the size of the Imperium, the age of the Eldar, the numbers of the Tyranid, the lengths the Necrons have gone to become what they are today, the brutality of the Orks or the cosmic weirdness of Chaos.
Just the look of that Tau experiencing a mind-blowing, pants-gakking revelation like that would be worth so very, very much.
There is a bit like that in the old Last Chancers novel - where the sheer size of a hive worlds population is frantically dismissed as impossible by the Tau officer as he can't comprehend the scale of the Imperium.
The Tau are an interesting Xenos race and I wish GW would do more of them rather than keep spreading out their limited resources in all the wars.............
Also the Kroot likely know more about the size of the Imperium given their mercenary work - but then they keep a number of secrets from the Tau.
A full Crusade (which is highly unlikely) into the Tau sphere would shatter their Empire - it would be a brutal fight but IMO the Tau simply can't deal with the scale of a full invasion by the Imperium. Its notable that their Astartes "Battle Brothers" have hammered them a number of times recently with the only comprimise being that they were allowed to leave a world targeted by Exterminatatus as they had fought well aginst the Necrons.
A Chapter like the Raven Guard foccusing all their efforts on the Tau would also likely bring them to their knees as superior FTL technology coupled with hundreds of Marines carrying out raids on logistical and C+C centres would be virtually unstopable, combine that with a conventional invasion by the Imperial Navy and Guard supported properly by the Mechanicus and its all one way.
Of course thats not going to happen - in universe the Imperium can't spare the resources, out of universe GW are not going to kill off a race.
Its easier to let the Orks and Tryanids occupy them - bit like Inquisitor Vail allowing the Tau to retrieve their wounded as a act of good faith - so sad she did not mention they were infected by Genestealers
A full Crusade (which is highly unlikely) into the Tau sphere would shatter their Empire - it would be a brutal fight but IMO the Tau simply can't deal with the scale of a full invasion by the Imperium. Its notable that their Astartes "Battle Brothers" have hammered them a number of times recently with the only comprimise being that they were allowed to leave a world targeted by Exterminatatus as they had fought well aginst the Necrons.
The Jericho crusade is a "full crusade" (it is in fact much larger than the Sabbat Worlds Crusade) and it has yet to overcome a single, but heavily reinforced sept. Of course, there are other reasons why the Vel'khan sept is still alive but i do not think that the "one crusade = vanquished Tau Empire" argument can be still uphold. The Tau species is highly united, technologicaly advanced and appears to have significant ressources at it's disposal. While the Tau Empire is no threat to the imperium as a whole, it certainly is a regional power that has to be taken seriously, at least by nearby imperial sectors.
The same went for the Japanese Empire back in WWII. And look how that ended...the Imperium would crush the Tau, no question. It'll just be very, VERY bloody.
Admiral Valerian wrote: The same went for the Japanese Empire back in WWII. And look how that ended...the Imperium would crush the Tau, no question. It'll just be very, VERY bloody.
As far as i know the United States didn't have to deal with Mexico, Canada and a revolting Texas all while trying to somehow defeat chaos Hitler As far as we know, the imperium current lacks the free ressources (i think the bottleneck might actualy be transport ships ) to deal with the Tau without exposing other fronts, otherwise they would
have already done it. The Highlords aren't too squeamish about a bloodbath or two but they are fully aware that destroying one threat while allowing two others to go unchecked isn't wise.
Mr Morden wrote: A Chapter like the Raven Guard foccusing all their efforts on the Tau would also likely bring them to their knees
A single chapter going against Tau empire would do nothing but being killed to a man. During Damocles Crusade Farsight counter attack massacred almost half of the Fosts of Dorn chapter right on their drop site, leaving only apothecaries alive.
Admiral Valerian wrote: The same went for the Japanese Empire back in WWII. And look how that ended...the Imperium would crush the Tau, no question. It'll just be very, VERY bloody.
As far as i know the United States didn't have to deal with Mexico, Canada and a revolting Texas all while trying to somehow defeat chaos Hitler As far as we know, the imperium current lacks the free ressources (i think the bottleneck might actualy be transport ships ) to deal with the Tau without exposing other fronts, otherwise they would
have already done it. The Highlords aren't too squeamish about a bloodbath or two but they are fully aware that destroying one threat while allowing two others to go unchecked isn't wise.
True...but what if they didn't have to? The only reason we have to work within the time frame of the 13th Black Crusade is because of GW's obtuse refusal to move the timeline forward. Once the situation over at Cadia calms down, and while the Orks and Tyranids are still busy duking it out (and both the Imperium and the Eldar are certain to make sure it stays that way), the brooding facade of the Imperial war machine could easily be turned on the Tau.
Mr Morden wrote: A Chapter like the Raven Guard foccusing all their efforts on the Tau would also likely bring them to their knees
A single chapter going against Tau empire would do nothing but being killed to a man. During Damocles Crusade Farsight counter attack massacred almost half of the Fosts of Dorn chapter right on their drop site, leaving only apothecaries alive.
Is this new fluff - I need to pick up the new Tau Codexes at some point......I didn't say or mean direct attacks - I was looking at a Raven Guard style campaign - so totally ruthless hit and run tactics utlalising the shock effects and better FTL travel potential of the Astartes - targeting soft targets where possible - - probably going after their civilian population densities as primary targets on the way to prompt mistakes by the Tau Military, not so much dropping into the heart of Tau defences.
At KingDeath - where can I find more fluff on the Jerrico Crusade and why its doing so badly if it has that level of support - I assume that as its "larger than the Sabbat Worlds Crusade" it is lead by a Warmaster able to field mutiple full Titan Legions and large scale Astartes support as well as dozens of capital ships (against whom the Tau have major issues) and many Guard Regiments plus full Inqusuitorial and Ecclesiarchy assets?
A single chapter going against Tau empire would do nothing but being killed to a man. During Damocles Crusade Farsight counter attack massacred almost half of the Fists of Dorn chapter right on their drop site, leaving only apothecaries alive.
During the Zeist Campaign, Sicarius' "almost Chapter sized" force wiped the floor with the Tau to such an extend that Shadowsun had to rework her expansion plans and redirect her forces to attack the neighboring sectors instead of facing the Space Marines.
Not to mention their rationalist and inclusive philosophy of Greater Good which I really like, they are like the Star Trek Federation, only better.
Wrong; they're 19th Century Imperialists IN SPAAACE!!!
Not all that different from the Imperium's Imperial Japan IN SPAAACE!!! Except that Humans are in charge of Humans in the Imperium, and not aliens.
Given the independence between the different parts of the Imperium due to it's decentralized government, the Imperium is probably closer to the Holy Roman Empire than Imperial Japan.
Also the Octarius war isn't really stopping either the Orks or the Tyranids, just some of them.
It is perhaps the largest conflict in the galaxy, but given the scale of the Orks and Tyranids...
AtoMaki wrote: During the Zeist Campaign, Sicarius' "almost Chapter sized" force wiped the floor with the Tau to such an extend that Shadowsun had to rework her expansion plans and redirect her forces to attack the neighboring sectors instead of facing the Space Marines.
And the best part of it, is that Tau allow them to beleive they force one million-sized 3-rd sphere army to flee to keep marines busy, while real 3-rd sphere army conquered the rest of the sector. Tau knew well that human armies work best together, so they did their best to separate them and suceeded. Mostly because of Sicarus' huge ego. I bet Calgar wouldn't be such a fool to believe even space marines can scare off the army one thousand times more numerous, unless this army is composed of grots alone (end even then it would be hardly believable).
AtoMaki wrote: During the Zeist Campaign, Sicarius' "almost Chapter sized" force wiped the floor with the Tau to such an extend that Shadowsun had to rework her expansion plans and redirect her forces to attack the neighboring sectors instead of facing the Space Marines.
And the best part of it, is that Tau allow them to beleive they force one million-sized 3-rd sphere army to flee to keep marines busy, while real 3-rd sphere army conquered the rest of the sector. Tau knew well that human armies work best together, so they did their best to separate them and suceeded. Mostly because of Sicarus' huge ego. I bet Calgar wouldn't be such a fool to believe even space marines can scare off the army one thousand times more numerous, unless this army is composed of grots alone (end even then it would be hardly believable).
It is unlikely the Imperial Guard's Warmasters and the Imperial Navy's Lord Admirals (who are ultimately the ones behind Imperial operations) are so naive. Considering the size of the Imperium, they would most likely do what the Russians did back in WWII - draw the Tau in with a fighting retreat, then crush them once their lines are stretched to the breaking point.
Now, some would say that Shadowsun isn't that stupid. And you're right, she isn't. But considering the limitations of Tau Warp technology and their small population (unless they start cloning themselves) this is going to be inevitable.
And if they do start getting 'too uppity', both the Eldar and the Necrons are probably going to take steps. Eldar may look down on Humans, but at least Humans are aware of the dangers out in the outer darkness, and understand the reality that all species must look to their own first. Not to mention Humans have psionic potential - it makes Humanity a better ally/tool against the resurgent Necrons unlike the 'blunt' Tau. And the Necrons are NOT going to be happy over some upstarts putting together another empire. Best to nip potential problems in the bud...
Admiral Valerian wrote: It is unlikely the Imperial Guard's Warmasters and the Imperial Navy's Lord Admirals (who are ultimately the ones behind Imperial operations) are so naive.
On the other hand, marines really do have massive egos. Sometimes enough so that other IoM forces will defer to their guidance in a particular theater of operations.
Did any more Necron Dynasties awaken in Tau space in the new codexes - both they and the Dark Eldar seemed to be harvesting the Tau now they were at levels to be noticed.......
AtoMaki wrote: During the Zeist Campaign, Sicarius' "almost Chapter sized" force wiped the floor with the Tau to such an extend that Shadowsun had to rework her expansion plans and redirect her forces to attack the neighboring sectors instead of facing the Space Marines.
And the best part of it, is that Tau allow them to beleive they force one million-sized 3-rd sphere army to flee to keep marines busy, while real 3-rd sphere army conquered the rest of the sector. Tau knew well that human armies work best together, so they did their best to separate them and suceeded. Mostly because of Sicarus' huge ego. I bet Calgar wouldn't be such a fool to believe even space marines can scare off the army one thousand times more numerous, unless this army is composed of grots alone (end even then it would be hardly believable).
It is unlikely the Imperial Guard's Warmasters and the Imperial Navy's Lord Admirals (who are ultimately the ones behind Imperial operations) are so naive. Considering the size of the Imperium, they would most likely do what the Russians did back in WWII - draw the Tau in with a fighting retreat, then crush them once their lines are stretched to the breaking point.
Now, some would say that Shadowsun isn't that stupid. And you're right, she isn't. But considering the limitations of Tau Warp technology and their small population (unless they start cloning themselves) this is going to be inevitable.
And if they do start getting 'too uppity', both the Eldar and the Necrons are probably going to take steps. Eldar may look down on Humans, but at least Humans are aware of the dangers out in the outer darkness, and understand the reality that all species must look to their own first. Not to mention Humans have psionic potential - it makes Humanity a better ally/tool against the resurgent Necrons unlike the 'blunt' Tau. And the Necrons are NOT going to be happy over some upstarts putting together another empire. Best to nip potential problems in the bud...
The Eldar seem to be rather fond of the Tau in the same way an old guy smiles at a little kid who's good at heart but is talking about all this new stuff that goes over the old guy's head. While when the old guy goes into his platitudes the kid just gives him blank stares.
Mr Morden wrote: Did any more Necron Dynasties awaken in Tau space in the new codexes - both they and the Dark Eldar seemed to be harvesting the Tau now they were at levels to be noticed.......
Tau have none less than Sautekh dynasty in like few steps from their threshold, though they still have a few imperial sectors as a buffer zone between them. Also one of their minor worlds was inactive tombworld and gone tomb"awakened" by Anrakyr the Traveler during their war against hive-fleet Gorgon - necrons first wipe all bugs and then cleanse the planet of all life.
Which is why when push comes to shove, Humans are more likely to be supported by the Eldar rather than the Tau. Humans (or their leaders) actually sift through what the Eldar say for grains of truth, unlike the Tau who'd probably dismiss it and anything pertaining to psychic phenomena as superstition or the ramblings of madmen. The latter is true to an extent...but those who master their power are best heeded. Something Humans and Eldar know well, unlike the Tau who probably will never understand.
Admiral Valerian wrote: It is unlikely the Imperial Guard's Warmasters and the Imperial Navy's Lord Admirals (who are ultimately the ones behind Imperial operations) are so naive.
On the other hand, marines really do have massive egos. Sometimes enough so that other IoM forces will defer to their guidance in a particular theater of operations.
They'll probably take the Astartes' advice, but they'd follow their own judgment in the end.
A full Crusade (which is highly unlikely) into the Tau sphere would shatter their Empire - it would be a brutal fight but IMO the Tau simply can't deal with the scale of a full invasion by the Imperium. Its notable that their Astartes "Battle Brothers" have hammered them a number of times recently with the only comprimise being that they were allowed to leave a world targeted by Exterminatatus as they had fought well aginst the Necrons.
The Jericho crusade is a "full crusade" (it is in fact much larger than the Sabbat Worlds Crusade) and it has yet to overcome a single, but heavily reinforced sept. Of course, there are other reasons why the Vel'khan sept is still alive but i do not think that the "one crusade = vanquished Tau Empire" argument can be still uphold. The Tau species is highly united, technologicaly advanced and appears to have significant ressources at it's disposal. While the Tau Empire is no threat to the imperium as a whole, it certainly is a regional power that has to be taken seriously, at least by nearby imperial sectors.
Ahh I know the one you mean - the one in Deathwatch - well thats a rather unusual Crusade through a warp gate with a variety of different enemies and objectives and a dubious logistics train. The Crusades full forces are hardly foccussed on the Sept in quesition ..................
I agree the Tau is a powerful "local" force but a Crusade this size of the Sabbat Worlds one - one source (Lex) says a Billion Guardsmen alone were carried, would crush it - but as I said for various reason - in and out of universe - It ain't gonna happen.
... it's also a moment frozen in time, as it's the setting of an RPG. The reason the Crusade is going nowhere is because it's the scenario in which the PCs can do their thing and, if the GM wants to run the campaign that way, he can write what happens. You can even blend in some Dark Heresy, Only War or Rogue Trader action in the Jericho Reach... or flip it around and play some Black Crusade from the various Chaos-held worlds in the sector.
Psienesis wrote: I think I would like to see a rendition of the face of an Ethereal, or any other Tau for that matter, the first time they finally realize the scale of the other factions in the galaxy... whether that's the size of the Imperium, the age of the Eldar, the numbers of the Tyranid, the lengths the Necrons have gone to become what they are today, the brutality of the Orks or the cosmic weirdness of Chaos.
Just the look of that Tau experiencing a mind-blowing, pants-gakking revelation like that would be worth so very, very much.
There is a bit like that in the old Last Chancers novel - where the sheer size of a hive worlds population is frantically dismissed as impossible by the Tau officer as he can't comprehend the scale of the Imperium.
The Tau are an interesting Xenos race and I wish GW would do more of them rather than keep spreading out their limited resources in all the wars.............
Also the Kroot likely know more about the size of the Imperium given their mercenary work - but then they keep a number of secrets from the Tau.
A full Crusade (which is highly unlikely) into the Tau sphere would shatter their Empire - it would be a brutal fight but IMO the Tau simply can't deal with the scale of a full invasion by the Imperium. Its notable that their Astartes "Battle Brothers" have hammered them a number of times recently with the only comprimise being that they were allowed to leave a world targeted by Exterminatatus as they had fought well aginst the Necrons.
A Chapter like the Raven Guard foccusing all their efforts on the Tau would also likely bring them to their knees as superior FTL technology coupled with hundreds of Marines carrying out raids on logistical and C+C centres would be virtually unstopable, combine that with a conventional invasion by the Imperial Navy and Guard supported properly by the Mechanicus and its all one way.
Of course thats not going to happen - in universe the Imperium can't spare the resources, out of universe GW are not going to kill off a race.
Its easier to let the Orks and Tryanids occupy them - bit like Inquisitor Vail allowing the Tau to retrieve their wounded as a act of good faith - so sad she did not mention they were infected by Genestealers
Nonsense on the Astartes front. A small-moderate Tau force demolished the Avenging Sons chapter with consumate ease, with the Avenging Sons getting the drop on them in several instances. The Tau then demolished the hell out of the IG that attempted to follow up. See the Tauros campaign.
A single chapter isn't going to wipe them out, or even come close (given that at least one chapter against a smaller force was almost completely wiped out). Even the RG aren't going to do it, given that 'smashing command lines' is pretty much one of the two main Tau tactics.
The Mechanicus is also very warry of the Tau, as the simple hammerhead is capable of taking out a Titan (they lost one during the Damocles crusade against what was effectively 'weaker' Tau units).
Mr Morden wrote: one source (Lex) says a Billion Guardsmen alone were carried, would crush it - but as I said for various reason - in and out of universe - It ain't gonna happen.
You keep telling about billions like its a really big number in the universe where single planet's population could count hundreds of billions. Tau have entire supspecie of their race dedicated solely for war - there should be tens of billions of fire warriors in each sept, much like imperial hiveworld PDF should count billions too - even the modern day Earth have seven millions of active duty soldiers despite the time of peace. The only reason they don't have such huge armies everywhere in the fluff is because authors don't want their precious main characters to be too insignificant even if they are something like space marine captain - against such an overwhelming numerical superiority even the plot armour could not hold.
If any Marine chapter which followed the Codex Astartes attacked the Tau Empire then that Marine Chapter would be defeated.
Farsight, during the Damocles Crusade, basically wrote out the whole Codex based on his observations of the Fists of Dorn, using strict adherence to the same tactics laid out in the book to predict the foes movements and crush them. So any chapter following the Codex Astartes instantly has a massive disadvantage. But then, having armies follow such strict guidelines has always been slowed as it makes you predictable.
I have the Taros campaign - like the Damocles Crusade - the whole thing is (from the Imperial POV) badly handled and organised with extremely limited support from the Mechanicus - in fact the book goes nto some detail about the issues in organising and the war and support units that don't join for various reasons.
For instance the AM only grudingly send a few Warhounds and when one is destroyed by a special new Titan killing aircraft pull out.
In the Taros campaign the Astartes and just Scout Titans smashed the Tau armour to pieces - they simply could not handle the two working together until the special aircraft turned up- if the Imperium had had proper air coverto counter the Tau - they would have been unstopable............. the whole campaign shows what the Tau can do, but also shows what happens if the Imperials are not organised and just how important air support is.
Even with total air supperiority the Tau can't break the Marine line defending the pull back from the planet - even with Manta support and no Titans to counter them
Its definately not the full Avenging Sons Chapter by any means - the initial strike is a Single Strike Cruiser, the 2nd Company and elements of the 1st (Terminators) - in the full Invasion there are a total of 3 Companies of Astartes, a single Battlebarge and a pair of Strike Cruisers.
I mentioned billions once (not Keep telling) to contrast the size of the Crusades mentioned - the fragmented one in Deathwatch is MUCh smaller than the Sabbat worlds one - the original assertion was it was bigger.
Mr Morden wrote: one source (Lex) says a Billion Guardsmen alone were carried, would crush it - but as I said for various reason - in and out of universe - It ain't gonna happen.
You keep telling about billions like its a really big number in the universe where single planet's population could count hundreds of billions. Tau have entire supspecie of their race dedicated solely for war - there should be tens of billions of fire warriors in each sept, much like imperial hiveworld PDF should count billions too - even the modern day Earth have seven millions of active duty soldiers despite the time of peace. The only reason they don't have such huge armies everywhere in the fluff is because authors don't want their precious main characters to be too insignificant even if they are something like space marine captain - against such an overwhelming numerical superiority even the plot armour could not hold.
I mentioned billions once (not Keep telling) to contrast the size of the Crusades mentioned - the fragmented one in Deathwatch is MUCh smaller than the Sabbat worlds one - the original assertion was it was bigger.
The problem with having the Tau have these large numbers is as you say you have to just multiply the Imperiums as well - the whole point of theTau military is it is small (in comparative terms), elite and super advanced.................
Mr Morden wrote: one source (Lex) says a Billion Guardsmen alone were carried, would crush it - but as I said for various reason - in and out of universe - It ain't gonna happen.
You keep telling about billions like its a really big number in the universe where single planet's population could count hundreds of billions. Tau have entire supspecie of their race dedicated solely for war - there should be tens of billions of fire warriors in each sept, much like imperial hiveworld PDF should count billions too - even the modern day Earth have seven millions of active duty soldiers despite the time of peace. The only reason they don't have such huge armies everywhere in the fluff is because authors don't want their precious main characters to be too insignificant even if they are something like space marine captain - against such an overwhelming numerical superiority even the plot armour could not hold.
But there's not, simply because, as we've seen, the Tau aren't that populous.
Also, the modern day Earth is not at a "time of peace". Sure, we're not involved in a World War, but there's a civil war in Syria, the United States alone is involved in 2 declared wars, 1 ongoing cold-war (Korea), and something like 8 different "police actions". Egypt is in turmoil, Israel is in turmoil, there's about a dozen brush-fire wars in Africa, there's an on-again/off-again war on Cyprus between Turkey and Greece, several countries in South America are experiencing degrees of civil conflicts, and nations throughout the Near and Middle East are experiencing civil and social unrest unprecedented in the last century. There are more armed conflicts happening right now across the globe than any other time since the second World War.
Mr Morden wrote: The problem with having the Tau have these large numbers is as you say you have to just multiply the Imperiums as well - the whole point of theTau military is it is small (in comparative terms), elite and super advanced.................
Why do people judge armies from the tabletop perspective? Tau armies are small on the table, but likewise necron armies are small too, though and we all heard about countless metal phalanxes they use in the fluff. Damn, even Tyranid armies are small compared to how are they portrayed in the fluff - non even close to "we could sacrifice ten gaunts to kill a single guardsman ans still count is as a victory". Fire Warriors are like Imperial Guard of the Tau Empire - they are vast massive armies, not a small elite forces. They need those large armies to fight their ancient nemesis - Orks which usually attack in billions too.
The main difference between guardsmen and fire warriors, besides equippement quality is that fire warriors usually get proomoted to battlesuit or tank pilots after four years of service, while guardsmen usually don't live that long and those few lucky enough only get promoted to veterans.
The totality of the Tau populace probably does not meet the total count of the Imperial Guard. They're simply *not* that numerous. We are not judging the army from its table-top perspective, but the fluff provided in the Codices.
In those Codices, we are told that the various cadres of Tau soldiers are comparatively small, work under the philosophy of combined arms, and prefer to use hit-and-run or ambush tactics when they can, where they can bring their tactical flexibility and greater mobility to best advantage.
The Tau simply don't have enough planets to have quintillions of soldiers, even counting the Vespid and the Kroot.
Mr Morden wrote: Even with total air supperiority the Tau can't break the Marine line defending the pull back from the planet - even with Manta support and no Titans to counter them.
This part was totally a marine plot armour. I mean they used land speeders to repell Manta. Like the Manta haven't like three dozens of LB burstcannons which coud turn land speeders into sieve. An speaking about titans, they are terrible at countering mantas, as their weapon aren't designed to target aircraft. Not like empty manta is much better against titans - two heavy raliguns are too weak against anything but warhounds, and other manta weapons are only good at dropping void shields. The main way Tau use mantas against titans it though dropping crisis teams loaded with double fusion cannons right on them.
Mr Morden wrote: ts definately not the full Avenging Sons Chapter by any means
It was single battle company with the first company support against single Manta-cadre. We currently know quite well how large is Manta-cadre. Marines weren't even heavily outnumbered there - they just made terribly bad decisions. At the end writers need to use plot armour (Barracuds trying to bring down Thunderhawks with burstcannon fire, despite having ion cannons) to rescue their ases
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Psienesis wrote: The totality of the Tau populace probably does not meet the total count of the Imperial Guard. They're simply *not* that numerous. We are not judging the army from its table-top perspective, but the fluff provided in the Codices.
Not like this matter a lot. Just like Tau can afford to send only a small part of their military to conquer, Imperium also use like 99.99% of his guard to protect his own worlds and reconquer ones it lost, especially in the properly named Time of Ending.
I was not even going to post in this sort of thread (since its usually a my dad can beat up your dad circular argument) but...
The Main reasons the IoM lost Taros was in space, they had to hunt down a Tau Custodian class carrier, and a few smaller ships, that were raiding their supply lines, and ended up destroying several vital transports, including one that had a entire regiment onboard.
The imperials eventually brought down the custodian but not without losses...it had a very cool hunt the bismark feel to it.
And as to the Warhounds smashing Tau armor to pieces...well they were doing well, but since again its from the imperial perspective..they may have fallen for Mont'ka stratagem, they lured the targets for the Ax-1-0 out where they hand the craft on standby for the attack run...its not like they just happened to be in the right place at the right time...its SOP for tau to use the bait and kill maneuver.
I actually really enjoy the taros campaign..since its not 2 huge forces grinding away at each other..its a reasonable size conflict for the size and value of the planet in question, and the forces we nicely balanced, with both sides doing some cool stuff.
Soo'Vah'Cha wrote: The Main reasons the IoM lost Taros was in space, they had to hunt down a Tau Custodian class carrier, and a few smaller ships, that were raiding their supply lines, and ended up destroying several vital transports, including one that had a entire regiment onboard.
This happen simultaneously with the operation Comet, where war was ultimatelly lost due to destruction of the water processing station. Even if this new regiment had arrived on Taros it would probably die of starvation and thirst just like the Tallarnians on the front lines.
Mr Morden wrote: I have the Taros campaign - like the Damocles Crusade - the whole thing is (from the Imperial POV) badly handled and organised with extremely limited support from the Mechanicus - in fact the book goes nto some detail about the issues in organising and the war and support units that don't join for various reasons.
For instance the AM only grudingly send a few Warhounds and when one is destroyed by a special new Titan killing aircraft pull out.
In the Taros campaign the Astartes and just Scout Titans smashed the Tau armour to pieces - they simply could not handle the two working together until the special aircraft turned up- if the Imperium had had proper air coverto counter the Tau - they would have been unstopable............. the whole campaign shows what the Tau can do, but also shows what happens if the Imperials are not organised and just how important air support is.
Even with total air supperiority the Tau can't break the Marine line defending the pull back from the planet - even with Manta support and no Titans to counter them
Its definately not the full Avenging Sons Chapter by any means - the initial strike is a Single Strike Cruiser, the 2nd Company and elements of the 1st (Terminators) - in the full Invasion there are a total of 3 Companies of Astartes, a single Battlebarge and a pair of Strike Cruisers.
I mentioned billions once (not Keep telling) to contrast the size of the Crusades mentioned - the fragmented one in Deathwatch is MUCh smaller than the Sabbat worlds one - the original assertion was it was bigger.
Mr Morden wrote: one source (Lex) says a Billion Guardsmen alone were carried, would crush it - but as I said for various reason - in and out of universe - It ain't gonna happen.
You keep telling about billions like its a really big number in the universe where single planet's population could count hundreds of billions. Tau have entire supspecie of their race dedicated solely for war - there should be tens of billions of fire warriors in each sept, much like imperial hiveworld PDF should count billions too - even the modern day Earth have seven millions of active duty soldiers despite the time of peace. The only reason they don't have such huge armies everywhere in the fluff is because authors don't want their precious main characters to be too insignificant even if they are something like space marine captain - against such an overwhelming numerical superiority even the plot armour could not hold.
I mentioned billions once (not Keep telling) to contrast the size of the Crusades mentioned - the fragmented one in Deathwatch is MUCh smaller than the Sabbat worlds one - the original assertion was it was bigger.
The problem with having the Tau have these large numbers is as you say you have to just multiply the Imperiums as well - the whole point of theTau military is it is small (in comparative terms), elite and super advanced.................
Imperial armor is also hopelessly annihilated in the desert, and the Titans are quickly pulled off planet given how worried the Mechanicus is about the Tau. They in no way baddly maul the Tau lines (quite the reverse actually).
It is also noted that the Tau aren't necessarily interested in wiping out the Imperial armies as well as having much fewer resources to pull from.
A Space Marine chapter can be effective, but it requires the Imperial army to bog the Tau down enough to be effective. Solo they're pretty hoplessly outclassed.
This is also the problem with the Imperium. Should they be able to handedly defeat the Tau even without a giant crusade of epic proportions (which won't happen)? Yes, but their leadership structure is not designed to do this effectively. A good Imperial commander is an utter rarity, for while some worlds don't adhere to this, the vast majority do (and the Imperium as a whole does), due to the fact that leadership is by politics not worth.
It's perfectly okay for an Imperial command to fubar another commander in combat for personal reasons. It is not okay for Tau commanders to do this (the possibly one time we see anything like that happen in the totality of Tau warfare actually doesn't read that way at all if you have read Ender's Game, which that one piece of fluff is so heavily based on to the point I think they must have copied lines verbatim from it, and that is Farsight's trainer sending him to the worst possible warzone).
Get a combined Imperial command that actually functions worth a damn and you could have a fight on. Otherwise it's a perpetually loosing situation for a group unwilling to commit the resources needed for such a campaign given such a piss poor command structure. The Russians only won against the German army due to several factors the Tau aren't yet in danger of (over stretched supply lines, a war on two fronts, someone else supplying the Russians with equipment and know how to get them back in the fight, and the Russian Winter all combining for a perfect storm that still netted over 25 million casualties).
Farly certain if the all the lost transport/supply craft had not been lost, the IoM units would not have required to secure a on planet source of water, no intelligent military conducts a campaign that hinges upon securing local, potentially disabled/destroyed supply assets..its the law of murphy.
Those craft in addition to beans. bullets, and bandages had provisions of drinking water, and that may have been the reason for the crisis leading to Operation Comet, and the loss (again) of a bunch of Elysians (poor guys.)
Saying that the Tau can survive a crusade and using the Jericho Reach as an example is a bit strange, isn't it? If I recall correctly, the main enemy in the Jericho Reach is... well, friggin' EVERYONE, not just the Tau. Jericho Reach is like, one giant clusterfudge of Chaos, Tau, Orks, Chaos, Tyrannids popping in, LOTS of Tyrannids popping in, and... well, a ridiculous amount of Tyrannids popping in, if I recall correctly. To say the Tau could survive a big crusade just because they're still active in the Jericho Reach Crusade seems to be ignoring quite a few other factors.
That said, it would probably take a really massive crusade to destroy the Tau. The Damacles Crusade was pretty big and wasn't able to do it, although that was in part due to the tyrannids hopping in (...again). Still, even without the Tyrannids, the crusade had ground to a stalemate and would have needed massive reinforcement to do the killing blow on the Tau.
Perhaps the Imperium could go after the Tau if everything else "calmed down", but honestly, even if the storyline was NOT in stasis and was moving forward, things do not look like they'll calm down. If anything, if the storyline moves forward, things will be even WORSE for the Imperium, as the Hive Fleets arrive, Octarius War ends with super powered orcs or super powered tyrannids gunning for the Imperium, Chaos gets a foothold out of the Eye of Terror as a result of a mostly-successful 13th Black Crusade, more Necron tombs wake up, etc etc.
If anything, if the storyline moves forward, the Imperium, Eldar, and Tau will probably have to team up even more just to survive. The future of the storyline seems to be in favor of the more villainous factions at the moment (besides the Dark Eldar, who are just doing their thing like usual). The Imperium, Eldar, and Tau had better get those battle-brother alliances ready, because it looks like they'll need it.
Maniac_nmt wrote: The Russians only won against the German army due to several factors the Tau aren't yet in danger of (over stretched supply lines, a war on two fronts, someone else supplying the Russians with equipment and know how to get them back in the fight, and the Russian Winter all combining for a perfect storm that still netted over 25 million casualties).
But this is precisely what is going to happen to the space commies eventually.
1) Overstretched supply lines - comparatively inefficient FTL (if the Necrons couldn't get around non-psychic FTL limitations, it is unlikely the Tau could).
2) War on two fronts - the Tau is already juggling its cold war with the Imperium with attacks from Necrons, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Tyranids.
Admiral Valerian wrote: 1) Overstretched supply lines - comparatively inefficient FTL (if the Necrons couldn't get around non-psychic FTL limitations, it is unlikely the Tau could).
2) War on two fronts - the Tau is already juggling its cold war with the Imperium with attacks from Necrons, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Tyranids.
1) Tau have a vey good logistics. As their FTL is too slow they start to send supplies and reinforcements even before their main fleet reach the destination, and comm beacons help redirect them on the fly. Tau successfully fought Orks in space even before they had any FTL.
2) You missing fights with wars - those are different things.
Admiral Valerian wrote: 1) Overstretched supply lines - comparatively inefficient FTL (if the Necrons couldn't get around non-psychic FTL limitations, it is unlikely the Tau could).
2) War on two fronts - the Tau is already juggling its cold war with the Imperium with attacks from Necrons, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Tyranids.
1) Tau have a vey good logistics. As their FTL is too slow they start to send supplies and reinforcements even before their main fleet reach the
I doubt if such a system would cope with a trans-galactic campaign...
Admiral Valerian wrote: 1) Overstretched supply lines - comparatively inefficient FTL (if the Necrons couldn't get around non-psychic FTL limitations, it is unlikely the Tau could).
2) War on two fronts - the Tau is already juggling its cold war with the Imperium with attacks from Necrons, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Tyranids.
1) Tau have a vey good logistics. As their FTL is too slow they start to send supplies and reinforcements even before their main fleet reach the
I doubt if such a system would cope with a trans-galactic campaign...
Fortunately for the Tau they are not a pan-galactic power. Any war in their territory would be small enough geographically to allow thier system to work.
Psienesis wrote: The totality of the Tau populace probably does not meet the total count of the Imperial Guard. They're simply *not* that numerous. We are not judging the army from its table-top perspective, but the fluff provided in the Codices.
Not like this matter a lot. Just like Tau can afford to send only a small part of their military to conquer, Imperium also use like 99.99% of his guard to protect his own worlds and reconquer ones it lost, especially in the properly named Time of Ending.
It matters a great deal, because all worlds are His worlds and, eventually, they will all be brought into His light and purged utterly of the Xeno filth that may currently inhabit it. It is the manifest destiny of Humanity to rule the stars unopposed.
Admiral Valerian wrote: 1) Overstretched supply lines - comparatively inefficient FTL (if the Necrons couldn't get around non-psychic FTL limitations, it is unlikely the Tau could).
2) War on two fronts - the Tau is already juggling its cold war with the Imperium with attacks from Necrons, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Tyranids.
1) Tau have a vey good logistics. As their FTL is too slow they start to send supplies and reinforcements even before their main fleet reach the
I doubt if such a system would cope with a trans-galactic campaign...
Fortunately for the Tau they are not a pan-galactic power. Any war in their territory would be small enough geographically to allow thier system to work.
And thus, the Tau are not really capable of being a true galactic power. A regional power perhaps, but that is it.
Admiral Valerian wrote: 1) Overstretched supply lines - comparatively inefficient FTL (if the Necrons couldn't get around non-psychic FTL limitations, it is unlikely the Tau could).
2) War on two fronts - the Tau is already juggling its cold war with the Imperium with attacks from Necrons, Dark Eldar, Orks, and Tyranids.
1) Tau have a vey good logistics. As their FTL is too slow they start to send supplies and reinforcements even before their main fleet reach the
I doubt if such a system would cope with a trans-galactic campaign...
Fortunately for the Tau they are not a pan-galactic power. Any war in their territory would be small enough geographically to allow thier system to work.
And thus, the Tau are not really capable of being a true galactic power. A regional power perhaps, but that is it.
One that has the proper makings for a very slow to build large empire.
Unlike the Germans, the Tau move their factories with them. After conquering an area they settle it, bring in full manufacturing capability, and then branch out after everything is stable. They don't just aimlessly blitzkrieg in farther and farther. Their advances are very controlled, to the point they could capture more then they do, but don't due to a conservative philosophy in this area.
Farsight, for example, has manufacturing abilities coupled with occasionally getting blueprints or prototypes smuggled to him which he then builds up using "resources" that were designed to be there for his expansion. In a real sense, the Tau don't have to stage a ton of stuff at a few key main worlds and then launch out, the new spheres form the basis for the next launch out. Slow but effective.
It doesn't enable a large power quickly, but it means that your supply lines are not hopelessly stretched beyond imagine due to galactic conquest.
Will the Tau ever be a major player? Doubtful, it would take away from some of the fun of the army (every other army is a galactic power house of some sort, kind of fun having the little blue engine that could in a way).
But as it gets larger and larger, the Tau will inevitably draw the attention of the other galactic powers. And that's what will destroy them: the entire galaxy turning on an upstart. I'm not saying everyone will ally with the Imperium against the Tau, but rather the pressure will steadily increase to a point similar to that which led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Admiral Valerian wrote: But as it gets larger and larger, the Tau will inevitably draw the attention of the other galactic powers. And that's what will destroy them: the entire galaxy turning on an upstart. I'm not saying everyone will ally with the Imperium against the Tau, but rather the pressure will steadily increase to a point similar to that which led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.
Except it won't. Every faction is at constant, unending war with every other faction. This will not change. Ever. If the Imperium, or any other faction, had the capability to deal with the Tau now then they would have done it. It's as simple as that. None of this "yeah... they could totally stomp the Tau, y'know, if they could be bothered" nonsense. No. They ARE bothered, very much. They tried with what resources they could spare at the time and failed miserably. Then the 'Nids show up and almost eat Ultramar. They simply do not have the means due to numerous, closer, more dangerous threats.
The Tau advancing more/expanding their Empire will not change that. All that will happen is that they will require more and more time, effort and resources to deal with that the IoM will never be able to spare. Ever. The Imperium is far closer and far more likely to suffer a "Soviet Union" collapse than the Tau ever were. They're too big and fighting on too many fronts. One of the Tau's strengths at present is their modest size and localised cluster of territory. This is also why they can afford to field a comparatively advanced, elite military. If they were the size of the IoM, I doubt they'd still be able to have all their Fire Warriors so impressively armed and armoured, or so many of their regiments fully mechanised with full Battlesuit and air support etc. They'll increasingly come to rely on auxiliaries with weapons and armour closer to IG standard.
Tau just don't have the time frame to become a advanced threat. With the tyranids moving in on the Milky Way and Imotekh heading their way future looks bleak.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Tau just don't have the time frame to become a advanced threat. With the tyranids moving in on the Milky Way and Imotekh heading their way future looks bleak.
THIS. Just this. If its not the Imperium to do them in, it's either the 'nids or the 'crons.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Tau just don't have the time frame to become a advanced threat. With the tyranids moving in on the Milky Way and Imotekh heading their way future looks bleak.
THIS. Just this. If its not the Imperium to do them in, it's either the 'nids or the 'crons.
Farsight's scientists developed a toxin which poisoned and destroyed a Tyranid fleet. So in their second encounter, the Tau came up with a more efficient and successful method of defeating the Tyranids than the Imperium had in the countless wars it has had with Tyranids.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Tau just don't have the time frame to become a advanced threat. With the tyranids moving in on the Milky Way and Imotekh heading their way future looks bleak.
THIS. Just this. If its not the Imperium to do them in, it's either the 'nids or the 'crons.
Farsight's scientists developed a toxin which poisoned and destroyed a Tyranid fleet. So in their second encounter, the Tau came up with a more efficient and successful method of defeating the Tyranids than the Imperium had in the countless wars it has had with Tyranids.
As for the Necrons, that remains to be seen.
I believe every Battle the Tau have fought alone against the Necrons, they have lost.
Grey Templar wrote: And the Nice will have developed an immunity to that toxin.
The Imperium figured out quickly that using bioweapons on Nice was a baaaaaaad idea.
So you develop a new one with a different transmission vector. How long has Influenza evaded eradication here? It continually evolves, there is no such thing as complete immunity. You just have to mix it up, something the Imperium cannot do with it's fear of new technologies/discoveries.
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Tau just don't have the time frame to become a advanced threat. With the tyranids moving in on the Milky Way and Imotekh heading their way future looks bleak.
THIS. Just this. If its not the Imperium to do them in, it's either the 'nids or the 'crons.
Farsight's scientists developed a toxin which poisoned and destroyed a Tyranid fleet. So in their second encounter, the Tau came up with a more efficient and successful method of defeating the Tyranids than the Imperium had in the countless wars it has had with Tyranids.
As for the Necrons, that remains to be seen.
I believe every Battle the Tau have fought alone against the Necrons, they have lost.
Can't find any mention of Tau vs Necron in their codex or the Main Rulebook. Guessing these are from the Necron Codex?
ImotekhTheStormlord wrote: Tau just don't have the time frame to become a advanced threat. With the tyranids moving in on the Milky Way and Imotekh heading their way future looks bleak.
Because of the inconsistent Tau fluff, it takes the Tau less than one year to build the following ship... and in that year they made the blue prints, tested the ship, and finally made it.
in Old fluff it took a while... new fluff less than a year (only because FTL for tau isn't discovered until 996-7m41)
Admiral Valerian wrote: But as it gets larger and larger, the Tau will inevitably draw the attention of the other galactic powers.
Sure, but that alone does not guarantee those galactic powers will respond with armies big enough or even respond at all: there are Charadon Ork empire and Sauthekh Dynasty Necron empire near the Tau Empire, both are much more threatening, yet nor Imperium nor Eldar haven't launched major crusades on them because they have more necessary and bigger threats to spend their limited resources on.
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A Town Called Malus wrote: Can't find any mention of Tau vs Necron in their codex or the Main Rulebook. Guessing these are from the Necron Codex?
Surprisingly not - they are from Tiranyd codex. Though Necron codex slightly changed that war.
In short, lage Necron fleet destroyed hivefleet splinter before it launched planetfall on Tau world, and then Necrons landed to be greeted like heroes. Then they massacred entire greeting party and proceed to "harvest" the world. Necron codex changed it a bit, as Necrons doesn't harvest anymore, so this fleet was Anrakyr the Travler's crusade and they came to "leberate" their sleeping brethren from organic barbarians who stole their world.
Farsight's scientists developed a toxin which poisoned and destroyed a Tyranid fleet. So in their second encounter, the Tau came up with a more efficient and successful method of defeating the Tyranids than the Imperium had in the countless wars it has had with Tyranids.
Others have already responded to this.
As for the Necrons, that remains to be seen.
Right...as if an upstart civilization a few millennia-old could match/surpass the technology of a civilization that fought the ancient Eldar on equal terms.
The Necrons are still only in the early stages of their awakening. This makes their combat power relatively limited and their worlds vulnerable to overthrow without credible resistance.
The Necrons may have once fought on equal terms with the Ancient Eldar, but at this moment, they are probably only barely on terms with the moder on Eldar. The fact that there is pretty much a war going on amount the Necrons currently also puts a limiter on them.
Locally the Tau have the combination of forces they need to survive pretty much any incursion up to, but not including, a properly organized and led Imperium Crusade. Anybody else is either too small in number to matter or the Tau have developed a working counter measure too.
This of course would change over time. Without a next level in technological advancement, it is likely the Tau will be snowed under by the Tyranids.
Jefffar wrote: The Necrons are still only in the early stages of their awakening. This makes their combat power relatively limited and their worlds vulnerable to overthrow without credible resistance.
Right...are you even aware of the capabilities of their leaders or their technology?
Jefffar wrote: The Necrons are still only in the early stages of their awakening. This makes their combat power relatively limited and their worlds vulnerable to overthrow without credible resistance.
Right...are you even aware of the capabilities of their leaders or their technology?
Are you aware of the capabilities of Tau technology, considering it is evolving all the time?
The Necron technology is advanced, yeah. But they've reached a plateau, it won't get any better. There's no reason to believe that the Tau won't surpass it.
Jefffar wrote: The Necrons are still only in the early stages of their awakening. This makes their combat power relatively limited and their worlds vulnerable to overthrow without credible resistance.
Right...are you even aware of the capabilities of their leaders or their technology?
Are you aware of the capabilities of Tau technology, considering it is evolving all the time?
The Necron technology is advanced, yeah. But they've reached a plateau, it won't get any better. There's no reason to believe that the Tau won't surpass it.
So you're saying they can bridge the sixty million years and more of technological difference in the blink of an eye? Good luck with that. Heck, Necron tech is capable of breaking the laws of physics without resorting to psionics.
Admiral Valerian wrote: So you're saying they can bridge the sixty million years and more of technological difference in the blink of an eye? Good luck with that. Heck, Necron tech is capable of breaking the laws of physics without resorting to psionics.
Necrons do not have sixty million years of technological difference as they spent all this years in stasis.
Also Necron tech do not break the laws of physics - they just follow those laws of physics other races do not know (yet). Necron reached this level through normal science research, despite only small elite part of their society was involved and interested in those researches - nothing Tau could not repeat given enough time.
Admiral Valerian wrote: So you're saying they can bridge the sixty million years and more of technological difference in the blink of an eye? Good luck with that. Heck, Necron tech is capable of breaking the laws of physics without resorting to psionics.
Necrons do not have sixty million years of technological difference as they spent all this years in stasis. Also Necron tech do not break the laws of physics - they just follow those laws of physics other races do not know (yet). Necron reached this level through normal science research, despite only small elite part of their society was involved and interested in those researches - nothing Tau could not repeat given enough time.
Perhaps...but as with all 40k factions, time is not something anyone can afford. And it changes nothing: Necron tech (at least with regards to non-psionics) is on par with that of the Eldar.
Admiral Valerian wrote: Necron tech (at least with regards to non-psionics) is on par with that of the Eldar.
Necron tech is superior to Eldar, as Necrons can controll time, predict future, create pocket dimensions, cut off entire planets from the Warp, summon lightning storms, hurricanes and earthquakes, which Eldars only can do with psionics or cannot do at all
Jefffar wrote: The Necrons are still only in the early stages of their awakening. This makes their combat power relatively limited and their worlds vulnerable to overthrow without credible resistance.
Right...are you even aware of the capabilities of their leaders or their technology?
Yep. Are you aware that the vast, vast majority of those leaders and that technology is blissfully slumbering instead of doing anything?
All of the powers in the Galaxy have fatal flaws. The Tau have he combination of not fully understanding what is going on yet and not having good warp alcapabilities. The Necrons have the Pariah virus and the fact that most of them can't do anything as they are still in stasis.
Admiral Valerian wrote: Necron tech (at least with regards to non-psionics) is on par with that of the Eldar.
Necron tech is superior to Eldar, as Necrons can controll time, predict future, create pocket dimensions, cut off entire planets from the Warp, summon lightning storms, hurricanes and earthquakes, which Eldars only can do with psionics or cannot do at all
Actually, the Eldar Empire could do all that and more, but I digress.
Yep. Are you aware that the vast, vast majority of those leaders and that technology is blissfully slumbering instead of doing anything?
Yes; and I also know that both the Silent King and at least one other Overlord whose name escapes me at the moment are rushing to wake them up, albeit for different reasons.
Yes; and I also know that both the Silent King and at least one other Overlord whose name escapes me at the moment are rushing to wake them up, albeit for different reasons.
Yes, and the Tau are rushing to improve their tech and the Imperium is rushing to block the 13th Black Crusade. There's an awful lot of urgency in the 40k universe, but not a lot seems to get done.
Yes; and I also know that both the Silent King and at least one other Overlord whose name escapes me at the moment are rushing to wake them up, albeit for different reasons.
Yes, and the Tau are rushing to improve their tech and the Imperium is rushing to block the 13th Black Crusade. There's an awful lot of urgency in the 40k universe, but not a lot seems to get done.
Anyone who suggested using Bioweapons on tyranids forgets that both Uriel Ventris' and Force Commander hairgel's tricks have already been adapted to.
They no longer work, at all.
I'm not sure if the Imperium even Virus bombs them anymore for fear of the Tyranids simply adapting to it and spitting it back at them.
In any case, the full onset of the Tyranid species and the full awakening of the Necrons would likely mean the End of the Imperium, nevermind the Tau and their tiny empire.
As for Necron tech. A single Dynasty and it's clients took down sixty worlds in a hundred days, was fond of opening a space battle by igniting the sun until the solar storm fried everything on a dayside of a planet, could suck a hundred thousand years off a star's lifetime in one go, are fond of starting a space battle by tossing chunks of dead (and thus ridiculously heavy) stars at very close to light speed, shut down virtually all technology capable of receiving a signal as simple as "Maynarkh comes" and very nearly crushed a fleet massively larger than the Damocles crusade with a force only a quarter the size with an even smaller fraction of the tonnage.
A single World Engine laughed off multiple battlefleets until an entire Space Marine Chapter kamikazed themselves and wiped themselves out to a man targeting the weak points of the ship and destroyed entire planets in single shots, and it's implied that many Tomb Worlds are actually World Engines that just attracted debris to form a planet over them.
A single Necron Tomb Ship interrupted the battle of Boros Prime, completely destroyed a Dark Age of Technology star fort that an entire word bearer's fleet needed to pack a *battle barge* full of nuclear explosives to hurt in a single go, completely and utterly ignored repeated bombardment from the Word Bearers, and it's complement of ground forces was stomping on both Fourteen Billion Guardsmen and Three hundred loyalists and Seven Thousand Word Bearers Chaos Space Marines, Millions if not billions of cultists and traitor guards, and an entire Titan Demi-Legion.
The Sautekh empire is substantially larger and more powerful than the Maynarkh Dynasty if somewhat less bloodthirsty and may have some World Engines to spare and has Tomb ships aplenty.
The Tau cannot hope to beat the Necrons in space, and if they lose the Space Game, the Necrons can do whatever the hell they want to anything on the ground. It's not like they particularly need the planets to be habitable afterwards.
A species the only bore one child per couple would never survive. Even two would be cutting it fine.
A birth rate for humans in this day, age and in western culture of about 2.08 is considered the break even point. The 0.8 is to take into account deaths before adulthood. In saying that though. The 0.8 does sound a bit low as well.
Admiral Valerian wrote: So you're saying they can bridge the sixty million years and more of technological difference in the blink of an eye? Good luck with that. Heck, Necron tech is capable of breaking the laws of physics without resorting to psionics.
Necrons do not have sixty million years of technological difference as they spent all this years in stasis.
Also Necron tech do not break the laws of physics - they just follow those laws of physics other races do not know (yet). Necron reached this level through normal science research, despite only small elite part of their society was involved and interested in those researches - nothing Tau could not repeat given enough time.
The Necrons are capable of time-travel. Not as an accident or Warp-shenanigans, but true, 88 miles-per-hour, Marty McFly Time-Travel.
Absolutely no other faction in the setting has managed this feat, or even come anywhere near the ballpark to do so.
ETA: They are also amongst the (if not *the*) oldest races in the galaxy. We have no idea how long their race existed before the War in Heaven. We only have the information regarding the fall of the Necrontyr, but nothing at all about their beginnings. They may, indeed, have been around as a civilization for 60 million years, before the War in Heaven which happened 60 million years prior to the current era. To put that into perspective, human civilization, as we would recognize it, will have reached roughly 50,000 of history in M41.
The necrons were quoted as being around when the galaxy was fairly young as per the 3e book and nothing suggests this has changed. So billions of years?
Also, the Necrons can destroy the entire galaxy with literally the flick of a switch, any star whose representation in the Celestial Orrery goes Supernova. Turning it off sets them all off simultaneously.
Everyone dies in a sequence that would make micheal bay cream himself.
Destroying the Tau Empire would be as easy as making some hand gestures.
The Necrontyr are just more intelligent than the Tau. They think on levels beyond lesser beings and younger races.
Necron tech makes no sense to the Tau or Imperials. It requires sciences literally impossible for humans to understand.
This isn't XCOM where two weeks with some fragments lets you build working replicas.
This is SPACE MAGIC with SCIENCE WIZARDS from a race of MUMMY ROBOT GODS.
The Tau make things darker because they reinforce that there is no hope for good at all. The only somewhat nice faction can be squashed like a bug and will never amount to anything. They sweeten the despair by providing false hope, weak hope. They seem bright but when you zoom out that lit is drowned by more evil, stronger evil. Endless, unbeatable Evil.
Jefffar wrote: The Necrons are still only in the early stages of their awakening. This makes their combat power relatively limited and their worlds vulnerable to overthrow without credible resistance.
Right...are you even aware of the capabilities of their leaders or their technology?
Are you aware of the capabilities of Tau technology, considering it is evolving all the time?
The Necron technology is advanced, yeah. But they've reached a plateau, it won't get any better. There's no reason to believe that the Tau won't surpass it.
This is actually quite false. There have been several instances of Necrons actually improving and developing more of their Technology.
To be fair, Orks are almost as old as the Necrons are. Sure, they had something of a Dark Age, but that was very long ago and they seem suitably recovered from it at this point..... and also didn't go to sleep for 60 million years.
The important thing to remember is that the Orks and Eldar and Hrud and Umbra and Slann and Jokaero and so many others were created by the Old Ones to fight the Necrons.
Given that the Old Ones are demonstrably dead and the Necrons are awakening again I'd say they all failed.
However, the Necrons were not able to kill the Orks or Eldar off.
The Nightbringer-- the source of the fear of death in all life native to the galaxy, including life forms like the Tau-- wasn't even capable of bringing Orks to fear him.
Melissia wrote: However, the Necrons were not able to kill the Orks or Eldar off.
The Nightbringer-- the source of the fear of death in all life native to the galaxy, including life forms like the Tau-- wasn't even capable of bringing Orks to fear him.
After destroying one race of billions of years old gods Szarekh immediately wheeled around and destroyed another.
Then he looked at all the death his millions year long war and everything he had done and told everyone to go to bed and spent the next sixty million years feeling bad for himself.
Still, not like the Orks miss their scaley task masters. Not sure how the Eldar feel about their creators.
The Tau make things darker because they reinforce that there is no hope for good at all. The only somewhat nice faction can be squashed like a bug and will never amount to anything. They sweeten the despair by providing false hope, weak hope. They seem bright but when you zoom out that lit is drowned by more evil, stronger evil. Endless, unbeatable Evil.
If they really believe in their sweet little lies, then I pity them when the darkness and insanity of the universe finally makes itself apparent to them.
Cyten wrote:
P.S.
Not to mention their rationalist and inclusive philosophy of Greater Good which I really like, they are like the Star Trek Federation, only better.
Well, they're like the Star Trek's Federation, but with social engineering, non-mobile caste systems limiting personal freedoms, constant pervasive propaganda, all to condition a population to believe in the utter rightness of an aggressive expansionist empire building.
Basically The Greater Good is a sham. The Tau are heavily drawn of Huxley's Brave New World's rigid social castes, replete with socially engineered subspecies that are optimized for their specific task in the society, and a rigid ruleset that prevents any cross-class mobility, and prevents any cross-class breeding and dilution of the idealized subspecies. Plus, each caste is utterly convinced that they have the best job and that they are doing the best they can do for society. If you want to read about the Tau, read Aldous Huxley's novel Brave New World.
Just brought the book on Ebay. Thanks for the recommendation.
Cyten wrote:
P.S.
Not to mention their rationalist and inclusive philosophy of Greater Good which I really like, they are like the Star Trek Federation, only better.
Well, they're like the Star Trek's Federation, but with social engineering, non-mobile caste systems limiting personal freedoms, constant pervasive propaganda, all to condition a population to believe in the utter rightness of an aggressive expansionist empire building.
Basically The Greater Good is a sham. The Tau are heavily drawn of Huxley's Brave New World's rigid social castes, replete with socially engineered subspecies that are optimized for their specific task in the society, and a rigid ruleset that prevents any cross-class mobility, and prevents any cross-class breeding and dilution of the idealized subspecies. Plus, each caste is utterly convinced that they have the best job and that they are doing the best they can do for society. If you want to read about the Tau, read Aldous Huxley's novel Brave New World.
Just brought the book on Ebay. Thanks for the recommendation.
Well, Brave New World minus the free drugs and sleep-with-whoever-you-want mindset.
Mr Morden wrote: Even with total air supperiority the Tau can't break the Marine line defending the pull back from the planet - even with Manta support and no Titans to counter them.
This part was totally a marine plot armour. I mean they used land speeders to repell Manta. Like the Manta haven't like three dozens of LB burstcannons which coud turn land speeders into sieve.
An speaking about titans, they are terrible at countering mantas, as their weapon aren't designed to target aircraft. Not like empty manta is much better against titans - two heavy raliguns are too weak against anything but warhounds, and other manta weapons are only good at dropping void shields. The main way Tau use mantas against titans it though dropping crisis teams loaded with double fusion cannons right on them.
Are you kidding me? Heavy rail guns are designed to take out titans, a job at which they excel. Admittedly Tigershark AX-1-0s with their twin linked heavy railguns are better for this because they are much cheaper compared to the Manta, whose main purpose is as a dropship, not a titan killer.
In terms of soulstorm, I found kroot rush to be scary as crap.
In terms of 40k lore, the tau were (until the most recent codex) considered the only real "good guys" of the galaxy. Sure the imperium had good people, but as a whole they are pretty screwy and nasty.
Tau don't, and may never have the numbers to contend with pretty much any other race. However, if they can avoid getting omnomed by tyranids, they are currently the only race in the 40k universe that is new and not at their technological peak. They have the most potential, but I feel they are at a relitively delicate point in their evolution. The most important thing about them is that they realize this, which puts them ahead of most other races.
Not a Daemon Weapon, never has been. It's most likely Necron in origin (Stylistically and Fluff-wise)
Apparently the Farsight Enclave Codex confirms that its a Deamon weapon...............well according to the girl I was talking to who had the codex anyway
Not a Daemon Weapon, never has been. It's most likely Necron in origin (Stylistically and Fluff-wise)
Apparently the Farsight Enclave Codex confirms that its a Deamon weapon...............well according to the girl I was talking to who had the codex anyway
Protip: Never rely on "he said/she said" as a valid source for anything.
It's a sort of vampiric blade that adds the remainder of the life of whoever it kills to that of its wielder. While this sounds plenty magic/Daemonic, the weapon has a definite Necron feel to it in appearance, and its abilities are perfectly within the Necron super-science vibe.
Psienesis wrote: It's a sort of vampiric blade that adds the remainder of the life of whoever it kills to that of its wielder. While this sounds plenty magic/Daemonic, the weapon has a definite Necron feel to it in appearance, and its abilities are perfectly within the Necron super-science vibe.
It's quite possibly a C'tan artifact given their propensity for metroid style life force vampirism.
BrotherHaraldus wrote: Apparently the Ethereals are subtly mindcontrolling their underlings with pheromones. Or something like that.
That aspect of Tau fluff hasn't changed between codices, though. It was penned as Imperial speculation in the original codex, and it's still penned as Imperial speculation in the new codex. As far as I can tell, nothing has changed in the fluff to make the Tau any more or less bad or good guys in relation to the other factions/the general setting.
Psienesis wrote: It's a sort of vampiric blade that adds the remainder of the life of whoever it kills to that of its wielder. While this sounds plenty magic/Daemonic, the weapon has a definite Necron feel to it in appearance, and its abilities are perfectly within the Necron super-science vibe.
It's quite possibly a C'tan artifact given their propensity for metroid style life force vampirism.
Can anyone who has direct acces to the Farsight Enclave codex comment on this? Seems from the quote above it could be either - although the lady in question and the GW store owner seemed pretty sure it was a Daemon blade but they could indeed be reading more into it?
Psienesis wrote: It's a sort of vampiric blade that adds the remainder of the life of whoever it kills to that of its wielder. While this sounds plenty magic/Daemonic, the weapon has a definite Necron feel to it in appearance, and its abilities are perfectly within the Necron super-science vibe.
It's quite possibly a C'tan artifact given their propensity for metroid style life force vampirism.
Can anyone who has direct acces to the Farsight Enclave codex comment on this? Seems from the quote above it could be either - although the lady in question and the GW store owner seemed pretty sure it was a Daemon blade but they could indeed be reading more into it?
It was discovered by Farsight on the artifact world of Arthas Moloch, which had a lot of "...tumbledown shrines and strange, faceless statues that predate any of the worlds of the Imperium." and there was a giant summoning pedestal for daemons (the "Great Star Dais"), that the tau unknowingly activated by slaughtering orks on it. From what The supplement says, one could infer that it is a deamon weapon, but I am more inclined to agree with Necron, because it prolongs his life through non-warp means.
Farsight supplement on the dawn blade:
THE DAWN BLADE The mysterious artefact that O’Shovah took up on Arthas Moloch is even older than the Imperium of Man. Fashioned aeons ago by the strange race that once inhabited that haunted world, the Dawn Blade has been forged from materials that even the finest of Earth caste minds cannot fathom. Its blade is sharp enough to cut through rock, and since taking it up on Arthas Moloch, and modifying it for use in battle, it has been O’Shovah’s weapon of choice for close engagements. Unbeknownst to Farsight, the ancient sword has a dark secret. Its blade is made from chronophagic alloys – whenever its wielder cuts a life short with it, the natural span that he stole from his victim is added to the wielder’s own. This hasallowed O’Shovah to live for almost three centuries. Though he has his suspicions that it is the Dawn Blade that has prolonged his lifespan to such a degree, if Farsight ever found out the horrible truth, he would likely end his own life in ritual suicide then and there. copyright Games Workshop
Ah right thanks for that - thats a lot more ambigious than I was lead to believe.................and does sound more Necron or maybe Eldar............or other race ...........
Indeed. Also consider that many of the Artifacts on Arthas Moloch within those shrines actually repelled the daemons, and so might actually be anti-daemon weaponry, rather than daemonic.
The Old Ones, perhaps? IIRC, they were wiped out when the Enslavers 'exploded' out of the Warp, so perhaps it was an aborted research facility as part of a doomed last-ditch effort to stave off the new horrors unleashed on the galaxy.
Admiral Valerian wrote: The Old Ones, perhaps? IIRC, they were wiped out when the Enslavers 'exploded' out of the Warp, so perhaps it was an aborted research facility as part of a doomed last-ditch effort to stave off the new horrors unleashed on the galaxy.
In the newer continuity, the Necrons were the ones who enacted the genocide of the Old Ones after them and their creations were slowly losing the war for millions of years. But draining life energy is right up the C'tans alley. I wouldn't be surprised if Farsight is being manipulated by the/a C'tan to make a new servant race to replace the ones who betrayed them.
Mr Morden wrote: Ah right thanks for that - thats a lot more ambigious than I was lead to believe.................and does sound more Necron or maybe Eldar............or other race ...........
Hey, it could be one of the 100 swords forged by Vaul!
Psienesis wrote: It's a sort of vampiric blade that adds the remainder of the life of whoever it kills to that of its wielder. While this sounds plenty magic/Daemonic, the weapon has a definite Necron feel to it in appearance, and its abilities are perfectly within the Necron super-science vibe.
It's quite possibly a C'tan artifact given their propensity for metroid style life force vampirism.
Can anyone who has direct acces to the Farsight Enclave codex comment on this? Seems from the quote above it could be either - although the lady in question and the GW store owner seemed pretty sure it was a Daemon blade but they could indeed be reading more into it?
He was fighting demons when he found the blade. (They had been inadvertently summoned by the spilling of ork blood all over a certain platform.) The sword was an ornament on a statue that belonged to whatever mysterious race had inhabited Arthas Moloch. He also found an amulet which repelled demons. Whoever this race was, they seemed to have anti-warp/anti-demon technology.
It is mentioned that Arthas Moloch appears to be a planet-wide graveyard. It looks grey and melancholy, but if a psyker were to look at it using the Second Sight, it would appear to burn with golden light... Interpret that how you will.
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