So I haven't seen any thing on this but I was wondering If the tyranids had come pre-heresy, how would a show down between a Primarch and the Swarmlord go down. Please list any Primarch and how you think it would go down. I think If it were Magnus the Red he being a super strong psychic would instant kill him.

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
So I haven't seen any thing on this but I was wondering If the tyrands had come pre-heresy, how would a show down between a Primarch and the Swarmlord go down. Please list any Primarch and how you think it would go down. I think If it were Magnus the Red he being a super strong psychic would instant kill him.

Fluff wise (and this is background, not tactics), MOST of the Primarchs would have an edge. The Swarmlord slapped around Calgar, which is basically his "biggest achievement" fluff wise. But, Primarchs have also been shown to slap around elite Marines quite a bit. So, who slaps around Marines more? Horus could likely take him down. Likewise, Swarmlord could probably take down Great Crusade Lorgar. Magnus should be able to beat the Swarmlord at any point though, same with Sanguinis.

Game wise though, just for completion, only Horus can give the Swarmlord a fair fight. The other three Primarchs will usually lose 1 on 1.

The swarmlord is just one more stupid bug at the end of the day. It would lose. Many Primarchs had incredible psychic defenses or such incredible offense that the bug would never get a chance to try it's abilities.

First of all it isn't just one more stupid bug. It is specifically designed to kill the enemy commanders. If it was defeated by a Primarch, and the hive mind was given enough time, then that Primarch would find himself facing a far better Swarmlord specifically tailored to kill him.

Calgar crushed the Swarmlord in manly one on one combat last time they fought. A primarch would make short work of it.

The whole "adaptation" thing the Tyranids have has a limit.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Calgar crushed the Swarmlord in manly one on one combat last time they fought. A primarch would make short work of it.

The whole "adaptation" thing the Tyranids have has a limit.

Calgar did not kill it, actually he had to run away while his champion held it of, not killing it either, with just enough time for Calgar to get away barley alive.It is said to room that world still coming out randomly too harass the locals

 Mojo1jojo wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Calgar crushed the Swarmlord in manly one on one combat last time they fought. A primarch would make short work of it.

The whole "adaptation" thing the Tyranids have has a limit.

Calgar did not kill it, actually he had to run away while his champion held it of, not killing it either, with just enough time for Calgar to get away barley alive.It is said to room that world still coming out randomly too harass the locals

So he's basically Old Oneeye #2 ? Bad, lazy fluff (if it's true)

 Mojo1jojo wrote:

Calgar did not kill it, actually he had to run away while his champion held it of, not killing it either, with just enough time for Calgar to get away barley alive.It is said to room that world still coming out randomly too harass the locals

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/534896-.html

Anyway, the Swarmlord's chances against basically any Primarch aren't too great.

A Swarmlord against a Primarch? Calgar smoked one himself, and even stood up against it while it was optimally linked to the Hive Mind.

Primarch wins every single time.

Swarmlord could also pull off his Avatar of Khaine strategy and send carnifexes charging at a Primarch.

 jifel wrote:
Fluff wise (and this is background, not tactics), MOST of the Primarchs would have an edge.

In 1 to 1 "fair" combat - definatelly. But the Swarmlord is a general first, and warrior second, so he wouldn't play fair. Many of the primarcht wasn't very bright and could be easily tricked into the trap, where they could be drowned in Carnifex bodies, or defoured by the Mawlock, so Swarmy wouldn't even need to step his hooves on the battlefield


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 PrehistoricUFO wrote:
Calgar smoked one himself

Not himself, but with his honor guard squad. Both times Marny faced the Swarmlord one on one he get horribly maimed.

 Mezmerro wrote:

Not himself, but with his honor guard squad. Both times Marny faced the Swarmlord one on one he get horribly maimed.

Have you got anything which adds to the link in the following post?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Mojo1jojo wrote:

Calgar did not kill it, actually he had to run away while his champion held it of, not killing it either, with just enough time for Calgar to get away barley alive.It is said to room that world still coming out randomly too harass the locals

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/534896-.html

Anyway, the Swarmlord's chances against basically any Primarch aren't too great.

According to the white dwarf, Calgar whacked the swarmlord in single combat - it doesn't mention injuries or honour guard.
Have you got any other sources? I'd like to see it so I can catch up

 PredaKhaine wrote:
it doesn't mention injuries or honour guard.

It does not mention them being distracted or cut of of him either. Calgar is known to always fight alongside his honor guard, because well, he is not that stupid, and in fact one of the few Chapter Masters who is mentioned to actually command his forces most of the time instead of rushing into close combat, unless it is really important.

In the Tyranid codex, (unsure of the new SM one) the Swarmlord defeats Calgar, and leaves him crawling away to a Thunderhawk while his Honor guard hold him back. The Swarmlord kills the Honor Guard Champion and most of the guard present. Calgar escapes back to a T-Hawk.

However, I hadn't seen the piece on Calgar killing the Swarmlord. Is that in any codex or just a WD line?

 jifel wrote:
Is that in any codex or just a WD line?

It is from WD, and yes, it's only one line without any details.

Didn't the Swarmlord fight an Avatar?

Edit - Nope, just checked the dex and it was a generic Hive Tyrant and even then it wasn't a straight fight, it got gang banged by some Carnifex as well.

In the codex it says about calgar getting slapped around by the swarmlord and unless I overlooked a passage it doesn't mention him killing the swarmlord at a later stage

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Didn't the Swarmlord fight an Avatar?

The Avatar challenged the Swarmlord generic Hive Tyrant....and then got trampled by something like 12 carnifexes


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Ceann Fine wrote:
In the codex it says about calgar getting slapped around by the swarmlord and unless I overlooked a passage it doesn't mention him killing the swarmlord at a later stage

Round two was in white dwarf.

Here's the link again

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/534896-.html

 PredaKhaine wrote:


The Avatar challenged the Swarmlord....and then got trampled by something like 12 carnifexes

Was checking just as you posted and updating my post

Wasn't the Swarmlord but your every day Hive Tyrant

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Didn't the Swarmlord fight an Avatar?

No, he just tricked Avatar into trap and swamped him in Carnifexes. That's why the Swarmlord is so dangerous: no matter how deadly he is by himself, his main weapon are his armies backed up by his genius intellect.

Ceann Fine wrote:
In the codex it says about calgar getting slapped around by the swarmlord and unless I overlooked a passage it doesn't mention him killing the swarmlord at a later stage

Manry and Swarmy get three fights:
Om Maccrage Swarmlord won, an maimed Calgar
On Ichar-IV Calgar won and Killed Swarmlord
in 976.M41 they met again during Ultramarinr campeight agains Perseus splinter fleet, and Swarmlord horribly cripled Calgar (like cutting off al his limbs, one eye and large part of his body)
So it's now 2:1 for the Swarmlord, and while he becoming more and more dangerous after each rebirth, Marny is a cripple, still alive only with a help of bionics.

As above, it wasn't even the Swarmlord

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Wasn't the Swarmlord but your every day Hive Tyrant

The Swarmlord is the name given to him by humans, so you shouldn't expect Eldar calling him that, but considering his cunning and trickery The Great Beast of Iyanden was obviously the Swarmlord.

 Mezmerro wrote:
in 976.M41 they met again during Ultramarinr campeight agains Perseus splinter fleet, and Swarmlord horribly cripled Calgar (like cutting off al his limbs, one eye and large part of his body)
So it's now 2:1 for the Swarmlord, and while he becoming more and more dangerous after each rebirth, Marny is a cripple, still alive only with a help of bionics.

Where is this bit from?
I've never heard of this and I'd like to go read it

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Wasn't the Swarmlord but your every day Hive Tyrant

The Swarmlord is the name given to him by humans, so you shouldn't expect Eldar calling him that, but considering his cunning and trickery The Great Beast of Iyanden was obviously the Swarmlord.

Obviously?

They don't necessarily call them Hive Tyrants or Tyranids either but they are referred to in that way throughout.

Therefore, Hive Tyrant.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Obviously?

Entire hive fleet tactical foresight and flexibility doesn't drop dramatically after the death of a single Hive Tyrant, you know.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Obviously?

Entire hive fleet tactical foresight and flexibility doesn't drop dramatically after the death of a single Hive Tyrant, you know.

If all other Synapse Creatures have been killed then it does, ya know

And why not? All the Swarmlord is a bigger more powerful Hive Tyrant, they both do the same thing, the Swarm Lord is just better.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:
Obviously?

Entire hive fleet tactical foresight and flexibility doesn't drop dramatically after the death of a single Hive Tyrant, you know.

No it doesn't, but by that time Prince Yriel had already destroyed the fleet in space and had taken the fight to the remaining nids on Iyanden. He slew the Hive Tyrant near the end of the battle. At the point, it could even have been the last synapse creature about.

Have you got a link or a citation for

 Mezmerro wrote:
in 976.M41 they met again during Ultramarinr campeight agains Perseus splinter fleet, and Swarmlord horribly cripled Calgar (like cutting off al his limbs, one eye and large part of his body)
So it's now 2:1 for the Swarmlord, and while he becoming more and more dangerous after each rebirth, Marny is a cripple, still alive only with a help of bionics.

I'd like to read this bit

 Pilau Rice wrote:
If all other Synapse Creatures have been killed then it does, ya know

If all the other synapse creatures are killed there is no dire need to kill the Swarmlors, as there is no retranslators of his will to help him guide tyranids outside his huge but still limited synapse range.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
And why not? All the Swarmlord is a bigger more powerful Hive Tyrant, they both do the same thing, the Swarm Lord is just better.

The key point of the Swarmlor is not about he is more powerful (while he certainly is), but about he is smarter. Much, MUCH smarter. And his intellect is backed up with millenias of experience.


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 PredaKhaine wrote:
Have you got a link or a citation for

It's from really old 97 White Dwarf. It doesn't specifically mention the Swarmlord (because he wasn't in the fluff at that time) though, and might be outright retconned by now, seeing as Calgar have his bionic eye ling before this battle.

 Mezmerro wrote:

If all the other synapse creatures are killed there is no dire need to kill the Swarmlors, as there is no retranslators of his will to help him guide tyranids outside his huge but still limited synapse range.

So you leave him alone to his own devices, good plan

 Mezmerro wrote:
The key point of the Swarmlor is not about he is more powerful (while he certainly is), but about he is smarter. Much, MUCH smarter. And his intellect is backed up with millenias of experience.

Doesn't change that he is a bigger better Hive Tyrant and that both do pretty much the same thing. He might be smarter, but all he is is a smarter Hive Tyrant.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

good plan

The emphasis was on "dire"

 Pilau Rice wrote:

He might be smarter, but all he is is a smarter Hive Tyrant.

Did you just said that intellect and experience is NOT SO IMPORTANT for a warlord?

 Mezmerro wrote:

Did you just said that intellect and experience is NOT SO IMPORTANT for a warlord?

Spoiler:

Err, no, I did not just said that at all.

I put my money on the Swarmlord as always being the ultimate victor by virtue of being immortal. The Hive Mind can just keep creating more of him until it learns enough to beat whatever Primarch it is facing.

Primarch just has to be unlucky one time and he is dead forever.

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
I put my money on the Swarmlord as always being the ultimate victor by virtue of being immortal. The Hive Mind can just keep creating more of him until it learns enough to beat whatever Primarch it is facing.

Primarch just has to be unlucky one time and he is dead forever.

Good point - Swarmy can play the long game

Swarmy vs Vulkan though?

 PredaKhaine wrote:
Swarmy vs Vulkan though?

If he couldn't kill him he'd just contain his body inside some expendable Kraken bioship while it still regenerate and propell the ship somewhere outside the Galaxy.

Thats assuming the Primarchs are unable to find a more permanent solution too.

Magnus - Kills swarmy, then cuts his essence off from the Hive Mind.
Night Haunter - Doesn't kill the swarmlord, just locks it up and tortures it for fun. Doesn't really care, he knows when he's gonna die anyway, so the swarmlord CAN'T kill him.
Perturabo - builds it a maze it can't ever escape
Guilliman - Puts the swarm lord in a stasis field

Then the evil primarchs all go demonified - so then they can't be killed either.

In 1 to 1 "fair" combat - definatelly. But the Swarmlord is a general first, and warrior second, so he wouldn't play fair. Many of the primarcht wasn't very bright and could be easily tricked into the trap, where they could be drowned in Carnifex bodies, or defoured by the Mawlock, so Swarmy wouldn't even need to step his hooves on the battlefield

HERESY! How dare you shed doubt on the tactical prowess of the Emperor's Sons!
No really, the primarchs are not supposed to be dumb, maybe a little rash.
on topic: I favor the primarchs, and also think that the adaptability of the Tyranids has limits, in that they are biological organisms. They Hivemind can adapt to a specifc foe by changing his creatures, but he can't just go "hmpf, to weak, multiply strength by one gazillion" and have a single gaunt dropkick a planet into another dimension. That's not how it works. On the other hand, the primarchs are the product of more than genetic science, they are made in a way that could, apparently, not be achieved naturally, not even by the Emperor. So while it is possibly that the Hivemind might have found critical weaknesses in each primarch, given enough time, it is also quite possibly that they cannot be bested if they are prepared to give it all in a fight.
Yes, i know, a certain primarch almost got himself one-shot by a non-Astartes sorcerer, but imho that was due to arrogance. He should have been to fast to hit...

 PredaKhaine wrote:
Thats assuming the Primarchs are unable to find a more permanent solution too.

Magnus - Kills swarmy, then cuts his essence off from the Hive Mind.
Night Haunter - Doesn't kill the swarmlord, just locks it up and tortures it for fun. Doesn't really care, he knows when he's gonna die anyway, so the swarmlord CAN'T kill him.
Perturabo - builds it a maze it can't ever escape
Guilliman - Puts the swarm lord in a stasis field

This all wouldn't work. The Swarmlord is not some phoenix lord or Grammaticus-esque perpetual human. He isn't "resurrected" in convenient sence but rater is remade, as his memory is constantly saved by the Hivemind. Hivemind don't need the previous Swarmlord dead to spawn new one. In fact, there is a chance Macragge Swarmlord is still alive, hibernating somewhere inside the south pole glaciers. To ultimately kill the Swarmlord you must eliminate the Hivemind, which means killing EVERY SYNAPSE CREATURE in the Universe. Thats tight, in theUniverse, not just in our Galaxy.

So why is the universe not upto it's neck in Swarmlords then?

If the hivemind can make more than one then whats to stop it making loads?
Where are the Swarmlord/Tervigon hybrids that poop out more Swarmlord/Tervigon hybrids?

Some how this turned into a discussion about Calgar fighting the Swarmlord, which is interesting, however, I was more interested in how the pre-heresy Primarchs would fair, based off their flluff. For instance I think Magnus the red would find a way to permanently kill the swarmlord while someone like Angron would easiliy be lead into a death trap laid by the tyranids and end up with his whole chapter distroyed.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
So why is the universe not upto it's neck in Swarmlords then?

Because Hivemind is all about being cost-effective. Creating the Swarmlord requires biomass, genetic material and time, which could be spent to make multiple hive tyrants. And most of the time Swarmlord-level tactical and strategical genius isn't required for a victory, so it is more effective to make those multiple Tyrants.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
So why is the universe not upto it's neck in Swarmlords then?

Because Hivemind is all about being cost-effective. Creating the Swarmlord requires biomass, genetic material and time, which could be spent to make multiple hive tyrants. And most of the time Swarmlord-level tactical and strategical genius isn't required for a victory, so it is more effective to make those multiple Tyrants.

I love the idea of the Hivemind on a budget.
Can't afford the good stuff all the time, has to make do.

But with the swarm lord being the most unkillable hardest thing ever created, surely it would still make more sense to retire the hive tyrant model completely. As Pilau Rice said, the Swarmlord is a bigger harder hive tyrant so the effort is probably comparable.
After all, it takes less effort to make a lasgun than a bolter and bolters aren't always needed to kill stuff - so why do the marines use them all the time?

Primarchs are greater than the Swarmlord in fluff - but as they didn't exist at the same time I don't think we'll ever find out who would have won according to GW, unless you fight a legion list with nids.
All the primarchs would have beat the swarmlord off the bat, it'd have to die and come back multiple times to beat even a single one.

In a one on one fight, all the Primarchs likely win. The Swarmlord is one nasty enemy, but he's been felled by warriors far less powerful than Primarchs (Calgar) in the fluff.

Now, in terms of strategy, I think the Swarmlord probably has an edge there against some of the Primarchs. As was mention, Angron would rush headlong into some huge Tyranid trap. He'd probably fight his way back out of it, but everyone but him would likely be dead, and the Swarmlord would be sitting in a chair somewhere doing a Mr. Burns pose saying "excellent."

A number of the rest though would probably be fine. Horus definitely, he'd slap around the Swarmlord like a toy and outmaneuver him too. For the rest, it's probably somewhere in between Angron and Horus.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
As Pilau Rice said, the Swarmlord is a bigger harder hive tyrant so the effort is probably comparable.

The effort of the Swarmlord is his tactical brilliance. If the Hibemind just need more staying and killing power it would just make a helload of carnifexes or few hierodules.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
As Pilau Rice said, the Swarmlord is a bigger harder hive tyrant so the effort is probably comparable.

The effort of the Swarmlord is his tactical brilliance. If the Hibemind just need more staying and killing power it would just make a helload of carnifexes or few hierodules.

So why not just spam Swarmlords and cut down on the chaff?

That way total victory would be ensured

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
As Pilau Rice said, the Swarmlord is a bigger harder hive tyrant so the effort is probably comparable.

The effort of the Swarmlord is his tactical brilliance. If the Hibemind just need more staying and killing power it would just make a helload of carnifexes or few hierodules.

So why not just spam Swarmlords and cut down on the chaff?

So why not just clone Creeds/Calgars/Eldrads/Vects? You don't really need an army of generals, you need only one per army.
It is much more sencible to have a vast army of fast-produced recyclable gaunts and carnifexes rether than small army of Hive Tyrants, with each of them need months to hatch and therefore is almost irreplaceable in the short period of time, not to mention they rent as good at killing things as more simple models of the same price.

 Mezmerro wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
As Pilau Rice said, the Swarmlord is a bigger harder hive tyrant so the effort is probably comparable.

The effort of the Swarmlord is his tactical brilliance. If the Hibemind just need more staying and killing power it would just make a helload of carnifexes or few hierodules.

But if its already got system restore points for the swarmlord that it can duplicate at will, then its already made most of the effort? Why would it not roll out improvements across all the tyranid fleets?
Have them all led by the swarmlord, it increases the odds of swift victory considerably and has a net gain on available biomass as a consequence?




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 Mezmerro wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:
As Pilau Rice said, the Swarmlord is a bigger harder hive tyrant so the effort is probably comparable.

The effort of the Swarmlord is his tactical brilliance. If the Hibemind just need more staying and killing power it would just make a helload of carnifexes or few hierodules.

So why not just spam Swarmlords and cut down on the chaff?

So why not just clone Creeds/Calgars/Eldrads/Vects? You don't really need an army of generals, you need only one per army.

Becuase they don't have save points for their brain which they can just stick in a new body...

 Mezmerro wrote:

So why not just clone Creeds/Calgars/Eldrads/Vects? You don't really need an army of generals, you need only one per army.

The Swarmlord is more than a general though isn't it, much like the Primarchs.

It gets its talons dirty.

 PredaKhaine wrote:

But if its already got system restore points for the swarmlord that it can duplicate at will, then its already made most of the effort? Why would it not roll out improvements across all the tyranid fleets?
Have them all led by the swarmlord, it increases the odds of swift victory considerably and has a net gain on available biomass as a consequence?

Which was my chaff point, why even bother with Hive Tyrants, you might as well just upgrade them to the Swarmlord.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
Have them all led by the swarmlord, it increases the odds of swift victory considerably and has a net gain on available biomass as a consequence?

Actually, it looks like all major hive fleets are lead by the Swarmlord when some major battles or campaighns happen. Unfortunatelly none of this major fights happen simultaneously, so we couldn't say if there are multiple Swarmrlords.

The Swarmlord has a separate conscience from the Hive Mind. The Hive Mind does this on purpose so the Swarmlord can provide a valuable second opinion on various matters.

If the Hivemind were to go around making too many multiple swarmlords, it'd risk having multiple creatures with a separate mind from the Hive Mind, and that's rather dangerous, I think. Some of them might start rebellions and become their own hive minds and other bad things.

So does that mean there's only one swarmlord?

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:

So why not just clone Creeds/Calgars/Eldrads/Vects? You don't really need an army of generals, you need only one per army.

The Swarmlord is more than a general though isn't it, much like the Primarchs.

It gets its talons dirty.

But its main purpose is to be a general. Yeah it is well armed and can kill most of the foes you can find in 40k in single combat, but its main weapon is it intelligence and experiences. The fact that it bested Calgar is secondary to the fact that it outmaneuvered his forces. A Primarch would stomp the SL in 1v1,.but why the SL would put itself in that situation, when it can throw several Bio-Titans or even a fully charged Doom of Malanthai at him?

I'd go with the Swarmlord by Table top, because NOTHING beats the Swarmlord in table top when he gets some nice biomancey powers (apart from mind shackle scarabs, but we don't talk about them...). Fluff wise I think the Swarmlord would lose, but It would definitely inflict major injuries onto most of the Primarches (Not sure how much of an effect SitW will have on Magnus) and Swarmlords can be replaced, Primarches can't.

Being that it is immortal, the Swarmlord simply needs to learn the weaknesses and strengths of the Primarch before achieving victory. It might take awhile, but let's remember the fact that the Swarmlord won't play 'fair'. It would probably attempt to weaken the Primarch first, maybe even loose some sort of Biotitian on him specifically built to counter the Primarch once he'd gained enough knowledge. Also, let's remember that it's main weapons (which are made from a material not from this universe) are backed with powerful psychic powers.

First time one on one combat? Probably not. But it's not impossible.

TiamatRoar wrote:
The Swarmlord has a separate conscience from the Hive Mind. The Hive Mind does this on purpose so the Swarmlord can provide a valuable second opinion on various matters.

If the Hivemind were to go around making too many multiple swarmlords, it'd risk having multiple creatures with a separate mind from the Hive Mind, and that's rather dangerous, I think. Some of them might start rebellions and become their own hive minds and other bad things.

This

The only reason the Swarmlord is so powerful on the tabletop is that he can roll on Biomancy and get Iron Arm. This wasn't intended when the Tyranid codex was created, so I'm not sure you should really include that into any comparison. If he was limited to his codex powers, he wouldn't be nearly as dominant as he is now.

 somerandomidiot wrote:
The only reason the Swarmlord is so powerful on the tabletop

Look at the forum section title. It's called "Background", not the "Tactics"
We're talking about Swarmlord's power from the fluff perspective

It would be an interesting development if the Hive Mind became so stressed that it built multiple swarmlords, and one of these for some reason went rogue. Why it would go rogue would be interesting to craft, and the aftermath would be very interesting to watch.

Consider that the Tyranids are possibly running from something even nastier than themselves. Maybe a Swarmlord comes to the conclusion that the war against the Imperium is detrimental to its goal of defeating that threat. They came to the galaxy to bolster their biomass to help in their war, but they've suddenly found themselves fighting on two fronts. More importantly, while they'd normally just replace their biomass, their new enemy is totally willing to blow up planets full of biomass, friend and foe alike, as a denial tactic. It's already doomed HF Leviathan, continuing onward with the same strategy could potentially deplete them if the Imperium proves self-destructive enough.

A Swarmlord realizes this, and throws up some less aggressive alternative. Maybe not something so wacky as an alliance, but perhaps something like waging a more guerilla war on the east instead of pushing westward where defenses are stronger.

The Hive Mind says "nope, going for the Emprah," and the Swarmlord breaks off with his own tyranids somehow.

I would like to see the HH Angron fight the swarmlord on the table... probs most likely an interesting fight...

Back on theme, imagine Swarmlord tricked one of the short-tempered primarchchs like Russ or Dorn to the trap. Not a lethal one, but one that cause the primarch to lose some scrap of skin or a finger, or just a few glasses of blood. Primarch eventually break free, but his genetic material is already delivered to the nearest malanthrope to decipher his DNA and use i's secrets to improve the Tyranids. Imagine the creatures, the Hivemind could create from the primarch DNA...

If tyranids had existed in 30k the heresy wouldn't have happened they'd be two busy fighting them

The primarchs might have been made using chaotic magic. I'm not sure the Tyrannids would be capable of replicating that through DNA.

Tyrannids might also require a larger sample, maybe. It's not really elaborated on much but it's hard to imagine there being a point to preventing the Tyrannids from reaching the Bhargessi if all the Tyrannids needed was a scrap of skin in order to replicate the Bhargessi (especially since Bhargessi are a space-faring species that also has been kidnapped and transported by the Dark Eldar, etc. Good luck preventing the tyrannids from getting a scrap of that DNA!)

TiamatRoar wrote:
I'm not sure the Tyrannids would be capable of replicating that through DNA.

They actually don't replicate, but rather use the parts they like to craft new species. Guard stain, engineered from the space marine DNA and Trope strain, engendered from Eldar NDA dont look like their "parent" species. And seeng as Tyranids was able to copy (and even improve) eldar "magic" in Zoantropes they could do something with the Primarch chaos bounded power.

They might be able to, but if Chaos is telling the truth about the primarchs (a big "If", I know), I wouldn't be surprised if the primarchs were a personal project by the gods themselves. That sort of thing would be quite difficult for the tyrannids to copy, I imagine.

Primarchs step on the large, aggressive bug........repeatedly..........and then relieve themselves on the corpse.
Not much of a fight if a marine can kill it in hand to hand.

TiamatRoar wrote:
The primarchs might have been made using chaotic magic. I'm not sure the Tyrannids would be capable of replicating that through DNA.

Tyrannids might also require a larger sample, maybe. It's not really elaborated on much but it's hard to imagine there being a point to preventing the Tyrannids from reaching the Bhargessi if all the Tyrannids needed was a scrap of skin in order to replicate the Bhargessi (especially since Bhargessi are a space-faring species that also has been kidnapped and transported by the Dark Eldar, etc. Good luck preventing the tyrannids from getting a scrap of that DNA!)

I agree, if the Primarchs were so easy to replicate from a few DNA samples, I feel like it would have been done already by either the Imperium or Chaos. The main thing that i think they would lack is the emperors power he endowed on them when he created him. Also there where irreplaceable machines and techniques from the golden era that could never be replicated. I think it would be literally impossible for the Tyranids to replicate a primarch.


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I think a genius tactical primarch like Gulliman would be smart enough to figure out what was going on after he killed the second stronger swarmlord and make a plane to track them down and eliminate them all. Even though the swaarlord is immortal making them still has a considerable cost and takes time

 Mezmerro wrote:
Back on theme, imagine Swarmlord tricked one of the short-tempered primarchchs like Russ or Dorn to the trap. Not a lethal one, but one that cause the primarch to lose some scrap of skin or a finger, or just a few glasses of blood. Primarch eventually break free, but his genetic material is already delivered to the nearest malanthrope to decipher his DNA and use i's secrets to improve the Tyranids. Imagine the creatures, the Hivemind could create from the primarch DNA...

Russ may be short tempered but not as a character flaw that interacts with his tactics, he would most inevitably do what was best to win. His short temper is more a a character trait of him being a titanic @$$&%#@ and a Space wolf #1, where Dorn's short temper stems from his pride and zeal which got him into sticky situations(Iron warriors maze) and a hand short.

BUT make no mistake, Russ is one of the most tactically sound/proven primarchs out there and would not let his temper get in the way of the job. Also factor in his chapter can apparently killing Primarchs, a Swarmlord would be bating practice.

Tyranids suffer from the too big to succeed syndrome.

They can't be allowed a major victory cause after that the galaxy would be screwed. So plot wise the tyranids exist in order to be stopped because there is no other option.

Necrons will stop and plot and cackle maniacly about their superiority.
Orks will just end up fighitng amongst themselves.

Chaos is kinda in the same boat. Minor victories but never allowed to reach too far.

 Grey elder wrote:

 Mezmerro wrote:
Back on theme, imagine Swarmlord tricked one of the short-tempered primarchchs like Russ or Dorn to the trap. Not a lethal one, but one that cause the primarch to lose some scrap of skin or a finger, or just a few glasses of blood. Primarch eventually break free, but his genetic material is already delivered to the nearest malanthrope to decipher his DNA and use i's secrets to improve the Tyranids. Imagine the creatures, the Hivemind could create from the primarch DNA...

Russ may be short tempered but not as a character flaw that interacts with his tactics, he would most inevitably do what was best to win. His short temper is more a a character trait of him being a titanic @$$&%#@ and a Space wolf #1, where Dorn's short temper stems from his pride and zeal which got him into sticky situations(Iron warriors maze) and a hand short.

BUT make no mistake, Russ is one of the most tactically sound/proven primarchs out there and would not let his temper get in the way of the job. Also factor in his chapter can apparently killing Primarchs, a Swarmlord would be bating practice.

Oh god, the effects of booze. " ...can apparently killing primarchs...".

Also I would love to see Fulgrim trounce the Swarmlord since he can apparently punch a Avatar silly bare handed. Now factor that in with a sword that could possible eat the Swarm lords very soul and you have one primarch that could kill the Swarmlord for good.

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
Tyranids suffer from the too big to succeed syndrome.

They can't be allowed a major victory cause after that the galaxy would be screwed. So plot wise the tyranids exist in order to be stopped because there is no other option.

The problem is GW are terrible at writing about the damage they cause then defeated. 'Behemoth totally got swallowed by a ships warp drive explosion'. Well, that explosion would have swallowed half of the Ultima segmentum, since Tyranid fleets stretch out like a column of ants. They also complete glossed over the worlds lost, damage done to the defense forces aside from 'Ultramaines lost their veteran company'. Reading the Jormungandr, Gorgon and Kraken fluff in the 5th edition codex is the same. 'We beat them, hooray for us!' without anything about the actual destruction caused.

They need someone who has a better handle on writing 'losing victories', because that seems to be the running theme with Tyranids - you beat them but lose a lot of ground, then wait for the next fleet to hammer in again.

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
Tyranids suffer from the too big to succeed syndrome.

They can't be allowed a major victory cause after that the galaxy would be screwed. So plot wise the tyranids exist in order to be stopped because there is no other option.

Necrons will stop and plot and cackle maniacly about their superiority.
Orks will just end up fighitng amongst themselves.

Chaos is kinda in the same boat. Minor victories but never allowed to reach too far.

Luckily 40k is not a story, it is a setting, we are never going to know if the Tyranids end eating the Galaxy or if they fail.

In my opinion when it comes to 1 on 1 fights I'd say most of the Primarchs > the Swarmlord > Lorgar, Alpharius and Omegon.

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I think a genius tactical primarch like Gulliman

Guiliman was genius strategist and administrator, but not a tactician - he was good at making prebattle planes, but couldn't possibly match Horus, Alpharius or Fulgrim in making plans on the fly, if his first one went off the rails (like it usually happen in the battle, if your opponent commander isn't dumb).


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 Grey elder wrote:
Also I would love to see Fulgrim trounce the Swarmlord since he can apparently punch a Avatar silly bare handed. Now factor that in with a sword that could possible eat the Swarm lords very soul and you have one primarch that could kill the Swarmlord for good.

1) That sword now belongs to Lucius, and the daemon inside that sword is now trapped in the painting, so it cannot eat souls any more
2) Swarmlord resurrects through memory "save points". Hivemind didn't give e shіt about his soul (if he have one) - all it need is time and biomass to recreate him.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
Tyranids suffer from the too big to succeed syndrome.

They can't be allowed a major victory cause after that the galaxy would be screwed. So plot wise the tyranids exist in order to be stopped because there is no other option.

The problem is GW are terrible at writing about the damage they cause then defeated. 'Behemoth totally got swallowed by a ships warp drive explosion'. Well, that explosion would have swallowed half of the Ultima segmentum, since Tyranid fleets stretch out like a column of ants. They also complete glossed over the worlds lost, damage done to the defense forces aside from 'Ultramaines lost their veteran company'. Reading the Jormungandr, Gorgon and Kraken fluff in the 5th edition codex is the same. 'We beat them, hooray for us!' without anything about the actual destruction caused.

They need someone who has a better handle on writing 'losing victories', because that seems to be the running theme with Tyranids - you beat them but lose a lot of ground, then wait for the next fleet to hammer in again.

Hm? I see your point with Behemoth, a bit handwaving there. But losses like the First Company are adressed, it took them a long time to rebuild them and they relied heavily on deathwatch tours to generate more combat experience. The truth is noone cares about IG and PDF losses


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 Mezmerro wrote:

 Mojo1jojo wrote:
I think a genius tactical primarch like Gulliman

Guiliman was genius strategist and administrator, but not a tactician - he was good at making prebattle planes, but couldn't possibly match Horus, Alpharius or Fulgrim in making plans on the fly, if his first one went off the rails (like it usually happen in the battle, if your opponent commander isn't dumb).


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 Grey elder wrote:
Also I would love to see Fulgrim trounce the Swarmlord since he can apparently punch a Avatar silly bare handed. Now factor that in with a sword that could possible eat the Swarm lords very soul and you have one primarch that could kill the Swarmlord for good.

1) That sword now belongs to Lucius, and the daemon inside that sword is now trapped in the painting, so it cannot eat souls any more
2) Swarmlord resurrects through memory "save points". Hivemind didn't give e shіt about his soul (if he have one) - all it need is time and biomass to recreate him.

Where do you get that “not a tactitian “ fluff from? The smurfs are not amused.

KhornedBeef wrote:
Where do you get that “not a tactitian “ fluff from? The smurfs are not amused.

Courage and Honor, Escrador war, Rites of war. Guoliman himself admited that while his plans are near perfect, they doens't assure victory against equally talented oponent. And on Calth, Nuceria and Escrador it take a significant time for him to adapt to enemy non-standard tactic, so he made mistakes where Horus, Fulgrim or Alpharious would not. But when it comes to strategy, not a tactic, few of the Primarchs could rival Rob.

KhornedBeef wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Dannyevilguy wrote:
Tyranids suffer from the too big to succeed syndrome.

They can't be allowed a major victory cause after that the galaxy would be screwed. So plot wise the tyranids exist in order to be stopped because there is no other option.

The problem is GW are terrible at writing about the damage they cause then defeated. 'Behemoth totally got swallowed by a ships warp drive explosion'. Well, that explosion would have swallowed half of the Ultima segmentum, since Tyranid fleets stretch out like a column of ants. They also complete glossed over the worlds lost, damage done to the defense forces aside from 'Ultramaines lost their veteran company'. Reading the Jormungandr, Gorgon and Kraken fluff in the 5th edition codex is the same. 'We beat them, hooray for us!' without anything about the actual destruction caused.

They need someone who has a better handle on writing 'losing victories', because that seems to be the running theme with Tyranids - you beat them but lose a lot of ground, then wait for the next fleet to hammer in again.

Hm? I see your point with Behemoth, a bit handwaving there. But losses like the First Company are adressed, it took them a long time to rebuild them and they relied heavily on deathwatch tours to generate more combat experience. The truth is noone cares about IG and PDF losses

Being addressed and being emphasised are two different things. Losing half a fleet and the entire PDF of the sector is something it takes the Imperium decades to recover from. Losing the entire first company of a chapter, including Terminator suits, is irreplaceable. Losing half a dozen habitable worlds is massive inside one of your most defensible systems is massive, especially to morale.

"So the Ultramarines lost a company of dudes and some ships got fethed up, on to the next fleet description we go' isn't good fluff. I've got no problems at all on focusing on the defeat, but the osses suffered for that defeat is always handwaived away, when it should really be the focus of the description of the defeat.

They Tyranids were beaten at Macragge... (is where it basically ends in the current codex)
But lost the majority of a fleet, which will take decades, if not centuries to rebuild.
And lost half a dozen planets, including prized planets like the Paradise world of Prandia, causing a massive blow to the morale of the system.
And lost the entire veteran company of the Ultramarines including irreplaceable equipment like Tactical Dreadnought armour, as well as severe losses to the 3rd and 4th battle companies (did these even get mentioned in the 5th edition codex?).
And lost crippling amounts of PDF drawn in from multiple systems in the Ultima segmentum, destabilising the defense of the segmentum for decades while they are rebuilt and reinforcements drawn in from neighboring systems.
And still didn't destroy Behemoth entirely because the author was phoning it in and didn't realize how hive fleets worked, thinking one ships warp drive explosion would suck in a fleet trailing in from outside the galaxy.

 Mezmerro wrote:

KhornedBeef wrote:
Where do you get that “not a tactitian “ fluff from? The smurfs are not amused.

Courage and Honor, Escrador war, Rites of war. Guoliman himself admited that while his plans are near perfect, they doens't assure victory against equally talented oponent. And on Calth, Nuceria and Escrador it take a significant time for him to adapt to enemy non-standard tactic, so he made mistakes where Horus, Fulgrim or Alpharious would not. But when it comes to strategy, not a tactic, few of the Primarchs could rival Rob.

Hm, guess I need to read more. thx then

Concerning the losses vs. tyranids: I don't think the individual hive fleet was spread like this in this case, or is that mentioned anywhere? And TDA suits could have been salvagable after the battle. But otherwise, yeah, a bit lazy.

Try salvage a TDA battle suit after a Carnifex has ripped it open, or genestealers have got at it, or melted by warp lances. It would simply be easier to make new ones for the amount of time it would take to repair most of them. I do agree with the fact that Tyranid losses are very anti climactic apart from the battle for Lyanden (Which really made me feel the eldar where on the verge of extinction) as it all ends with kill the boss and you win syndrome. And I also agree that exploding a warp drive to win is VERY lazy writing (It happens a lot) APART from when Vect does it, he does everything with class.

The amount of primarchwank has increased to such stupid levels that nothing short of a tactical nuke would ever inconvenience one.
Because, as everyone knows, stupid invulnerable heroes are the most interesting ones, especialy if they are badly written.

I think Betrayer was really the culmination of that trend, lol.

Shot in the face with a plasma blastgun, and then stepped on by a Warhound Titan.

Minor injuries.


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 Mezmerro wrote:

KhornedBeef wrote:
Where do you get that “not a tactitian “ fluff from? The smurfs are not amused.

Courage and Honor, Escrador war, Rites of war. Guoliman himself admited that while his plans are near perfect, they doens't assure victory against equally talented oponent. And on Calth, Nuceria and Escrador it take a significant time for him to adapt to enemy non-standard tactic,

I dunno if you can really say that. Once Guilliman determines that it is indeed an attack, and not an accident, he is quick to respond and ultimately win the battle at Calth. The initial confusion wasn't an error, it was from the utter shock that one of his brothers would turn on him and attack. At the time of the Heresy, that was essentially unthinkable.

so he made mistakes where Horus, Fulgrim or Alpharious would not.

Except all three of them made many mistakes of their own over the course of the Heresy, at both the strategic, and tactical level.


Plus, citing Graham McNeill stories is always a big no-no. McNeill is a terrible writer of Space Marines.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
The initial confusion wasn't an error, it was from the utter shock that one of his brothers would turn on him and attack. At the time of the Heresy, that was essentially unthinkable.

*cough* II and XI *cough*

KingDeath wrote:
The amount of primarchwank has increased to such stupid levels that nothing short of a tactical nuke would ever inconvenience one.
Because, as everyone knows, stupid invulnerable heroes are the most interesting ones, especialy if they are badly written.

Yes, let's all vastly exaggerate what goes on in BL novels when in Codex Grey Knights there is a guy who literally comes back to life after dying. Over and over again. And people are freaking out over Primarchs surviving head trauma?

 Omegus wrote:

KingDeath wrote:
The amount of primarchwank has increased to such stupid levels that nothing short of a tactical nuke would ever inconvenience one.
Because, as everyone knows, stupid invulnerable heroes are the most interesting ones, especialy if they are badly written.

Yes, let's all vastly exaggerate what goes on in BL novels when in Codex Grey Knights there is a guy who literally comes back to life after dying. Over and over again. And people are freaking out over Primarchs surviving head trauma?

So, because Ward's fluff is realy bad it is ok for other writers to be equaly bad ( or even worse, perpetuals... *shudder*)?

It is always interesting that the Primarch complaint squad always attack their power level rather than anything that actually impacts the story.

"Oh but nothing can challenge them!"

Well they often are pit against other Primarchs, sufficient heavy weaponry to inconvenience them, or Daemons (Like the one that put Sanguinius in a coma for half of Fear to Tread).

DogofWar1 wrote:
It would be an interesting development if the Hive Mind became so stressed that it built multiple swarmlords, and one of these for some reason went rogue. Why it would go rogue would be interesting to craft, and the aftermath would be very interesting to watch.

Consider that the Tyranids are possibly running from something even nastier than themselves. Maybe a Swarmlord comes to the conclusion that the war against the Imperium is detrimental to its goal of defeating that threat. They came to the galaxy to bolster their biomass to help in their war, but they've suddenly found themselves fighting on two fronts. More importantly, while they'd normally just replace their biomass, their new enemy is totally willing to blow up planets full of biomass, friend and foe alike, as a denial tactic. It's already doomed HF Leviathan, continuing onward with the same strategy could potentially deplete them if the Imperium proves self-destructive enough.

A Swarmlord realizes this, and throws up some less aggressive alternative. Maybe not something so wacky as an alliance, but perhaps something like waging a more guerilla war on the east instead of pushing westward where defenses are stronger.

The Hive Mind says "nope, going for the Emprah," and the Swarmlord breaks off with his own tyranids somehow.

*cough* halo *cough*

 the shrouded lord wrote:

DogofWar1 wrote:
It would be an interesting development if the Hive Mind became so stressed that it built multiple swarmlords, and one of these for some reason went rogue. Why it would go rogue would be interesting to craft, and the aftermath would be very interesting to watch.

Consider that the Tyranids are possibly running from something even nastier than themselves. Maybe a Swarmlord comes to the conclusion that the war against the Imperium is detrimental to its goal of defeating that threat. They came to the galaxy to bolster their biomass to help in their war, but they've suddenly found themselves fighting on two fronts. More importantly, while they'd normally just replace their biomass, their new enemy is totally willing to blow up planets full of biomass, friend and foe alike, as a denial tactic. It's already doomed HF Leviathan, continuing onward with the same strategy could potentially deplete them if the Imperium proves self-destructive enough.

A Swarmlord realizes this, and throws up some less aggressive alternative. Maybe not something so wacky as an alliance, but perhaps something like waging a more guerilla war on the east instead of pushing westward where defenses are stronger.

The Hive Mind says "nope, going for the Emprah," and the Swarmlord breaks off with his own tyranids somehow.

*cough* halo *cough*

How is that Halo?

The tactic of scorched earth has existed for some time. Warhammer 40,000 has had such tactics going on for some time.

The Swarmlord exists as a stress response of the Hive fleets to enemies that are hard to beat. More so than with other Hive Tyrants if the Swarmlord is killed it adapts and becomes more dangerous. Something that is very important to note is the Swarmlord's purpose is to ensure that the swarm is able to feed upon the target world or worlds. The presence of the Primarch may not be it's primary concern as far as targets are concerned. Angron for example is less into strategy and more into body count. Personal combat and success is of no interest to the Swarmlord or any Tyranid. It may simply let the Primarch die fighting it's swarms and concern itself with other matters.

However if the Tyranids appeared pre-heresy it is very likely there may not of been a Horus heresy. The heresy was largely brought about because of a lack of external threats to the Imperium. The huge legions of Marines roaming around needed something to fight so they chose each other. If the Tyranids had invaded there would of been far fewer chances to plot and scheme rebellion.

"Consider that the Tyranids are possibly running from something even nastier than themselves. Maybe a Swarmlord comes to the conclusion that the war against the Imperium is detrimental to its goal of defeating that threat. They came to the galaxy to bolster their biomass to help in their war, but they've suddenly found themselves fighting on two fronts. More importantly, while they'd normally just replace their biomass, their new enemy is totally willing to blow up planets full of biomass, friend and foe alike, as a denial tactic. It's already doomed HF Leviathan, continuing onward with the same strategy could potentially deplete them if the Imperium proves self-destructive enough. "
This bit

Hive fleet Leviathan has only been temporarily slowed by destroying planets, not doomed. The size and strength of Leviathan is such the Imperium does not have enough strength to stop it fully. In addition the Imperium has already concluded that destroying planets to stop the Tyranids isn't working. First the Tyranids likely have more hive fleets than the Imperium has planets to sacrifice, if the Imperium continues that way the Imperium will exterminatus itself into exitinction. There is the additional problem of reaching the worlds under attack, the shadow in the warp often prevents this. Also many exterminatus fleets are destroyed by the Tyranids before they can carry out their work, this renders the biomass denial strategy largely ineffective.

Secondly the Imperium controls only a tiny number of the worlds in the galaxy, it is simply the largest and most widespread of the galaxy's empires. The Imperium cannot hope to locate and either protect or destroy even a small number of the worlds out there. In other words the galaxy is for the most part easy meat.

Fighting the Tyranids and winning has always been a case of the galaxy's inhabitants human and alien forming a unified front, this is unlikely to happen. There is unlikely to be an enmey the Tyranids are fleeing from, they have already consumed about a dozen galaxies. Also the current Tyranid swarms in the galaxy are just the vanguard for the main Tyranid force that is yet to arrive.

 Leech wrote:
Hive fleet Leviathan has only been temporarily slowed by destroying planets, not doomed. The size and strength of Leviathan is such the Imperium does not have enough strength to stop it fully. In addition the Imperium has already concluded that destroying planets to stop the Tyranids isn't working. First the Tyranids likely have more hive fleets than the Imperium has planets to sacrifice, if the Imperium continues that way the Imperium will exterminatus itself into exitinction. There is the additional problem of reaching the worlds under attack, the shadow in the warp often prevents this. Also many exterminatus fleets are destroyed by the Tyranids before they can carry out their work, this renders the biomass denial strategy largely ineffective.

Secondly the Imperium controls only a tiny number of the worlds in the galaxy, it is simply the largest and most widespread of the galaxy's empires. The Imperium cannot hope to locate and either protect or destroy even a small number of the worlds out there. In other words the galaxy is for the most part easy meat.

Fighting the Tyranids and winning has always been a case of the galaxy's inhabitants human and alien forming a unified front, this is unlikely to happen. There is unlikely to be an enmey the Tyranids are fleeing from, they have already consumed about a dozen galaxies. Also the current Tyranid swarms in the galaxy are just the vanguard for the main Tyranid force that is yet to arrive.

I feel that nothing express better how big the Tyranid menace is like the Silent King stating that a united Necron race may not be enough to stop the Tyranids.

 Leech wrote:
Hive fleet Leviathan has only been temporarily slowed by destroying planets, not doomed. The size and strength of Leviathan is such the Imperium does not have enough strength to stop it fully. In addition the Imperium has already concluded that destroying planets to stop the Tyranids isn't working. First the Tyranids likely have more hive fleets than the Imperium has planets to sacrifice, if the Imperium continues that way the Imperium will exterminatus itself into exitinction. There is the additional problem of reaching the worlds under attack, the shadow in the warp often prevents this. Also many exterminatus fleets are destroyed by the Tyranids before they can carry out their work, this renders the biomass denial strategy largely ineffective.

Secondly the Imperium controls only a tiny number of the worlds in the galaxy, it is simply the largest and most widespread of the galaxy's empires. The Imperium cannot hope to locate and either protect or destroy even a small number of the worlds out there. In other words the galaxy is for the most part easy meat.

Fighting the Tyranids and winning has always been a case of the galaxy's inhabitants human and alien forming a unified front, this is unlikely to happen. There is unlikely to be an enmey the Tyranids are fleeing from, they have already consumed about a dozen galaxies. Also the current Tyranid swarms in the galaxy are just the vanguard for the main Tyranid force that is yet to arrive.

Quite so. A Hive Fleet can even be smashed in battle and reduced to a few stragglers that limp away. if those surviving ships happen across a system with a few edible worlds and no sentient presence (or space-faring presence) then in just a few short years the fleet could grow from a few ships to dozens of Hive Ships and attending space-swarms. Their ability to renew their forces outstrips even the Orks...

To answer the OP question. Based on straight up 1 vs 1 I believe a Primarch wins the match, even after reading the entire thread.

I vote the Swarmlord. But i'm blatantly bias and not ashamed to admit it.