The imperium has a relationship in the amount of work done between the marines and the guard similar to the SEALs and the Marines respectively. Not really in getting stuff done though. When the imperium is tired of offing millions of guard to retake a planet they send in a chapter of marines who does the same task in a few months with few casualties. The imperial guard still do most of the work though.
The Sisters?
They don't seem to do much of anything. I'm under the impression that they have fewer numbers than even a large pre heresy legion of marines and with marines being superhuman, with dudes who can go toe to toe with bloodthirsters being all things considered not that rare ( look at the new iron hands chapter masters, gak......) They seem to be worth very little in comparison to the marines who simply seem to be traditional even if they are effective.
I would love to hear some stuff about sisters exploits to change my opinion. This isn't really a fluffy question, but a converstation starter for all the sisters fanboys and fangirls we seem to have.
The ultimate question I guess? Why do people defend them with fanaticism?
People defend them because they're pretty much the only representation of women in 40k. People also tend to get defensive about their own armies being distinct.
They're also people in power armor who aren't genetically enhanced, which is unique. There hasn't been much fluff around them recently because GW haven't totally known what to do with them. When they get a new codex and new models, you'll see a lot more of them in the background.
Brother SRM wrote: People defend them because they're pretty much the only representation of women in 40k. People also tend to get defensive about their own armies being distinct.
They're also people in power armor who aren't genetically enhanced, which is unique. There hasn't been much fluff around them recently because GW haven't totally known what to do with them. When they get a new codex and new models, you'll see a lot more of them in the background.
They aren't really the only women though. Female imperial navy officers, female commisars, Callidus assasins, the sisters of silence, and female inquisitors are all not uncommon.
Will that ever happen? It's not really when they get a new codex, but if they'll simply get wiped out by the entire grey knights order using entire sisterhoods as lubricant. If GW decides to get on it they'll do it pretty much instantly.
I'd actually love to see them get a new codex, if only so people at my otherwise friendly LGS would shut up.
They are the absolute best that Humanity has to offer. They lack the numbers of the Imperial Guard, they lack even the numbers of the Space Marines, and they lack the super-science and genetic manipulations that the Space Marines have. They are hard as nails, and rather adept at kicking ass and taking absolutely no names.
Yet, the Sisters of Battle are used to fight heretics, Chaos worshipers, Xenos, and Daemons... the threats From Within, From Without and From Beyond... and they do it gladly. They purify the corrupt with flame, bolter and melta. They set straight that which is twisted, they carry the light of the Emperor's Will into the darkest of places, they punish the wicked in the name of the Golden Throne of Terra... and they do this without a hint of the arrogance or pride of the Space Marines, because the Sisters of Battle, alone of every institution of the Imperium, truly understands what it means to serve the God-Emperor.
Their Orders Dialoguous analyze ancient and Xeno texts that further the Imperium's understanding of its own history and that of its myriad enemies.
Their Orders Famulous help ensure that Imperial nobility maintains its faith in the God-Emperor and, through their subtle machinations, marry into other families that further the goals of the Ecclesiarchy.
Their Orders Hospitaler ensure that the soldiers and common people both in war-torn areas see servants of the God-Emperor out amongst their sick and injured on missions of mercy, succor and healing.
Their Orders Militant do much of the same work of the Space Marines, and more, and do it without the various implants and mutations that the Space Marines do. It is also of note that, as far as the GW studio is concerned, not a single Sister of Battle has ever turned to Chaos and betrayed the Emperor. No Space Marine can make the same claim about the Astartes.
Psienesis wrote: It is also of note that, as far as the GW studio is concerned, not a single Sister of Battle has ever turned to Chaos and betrayed the Emperor. No Space Marine can make the same claim about the Astartes.
Guard are not the "SEALS" of the Imperium. Think of them more like Joe Schmoe Grunt in Vietnam. His life expectancy is limited and surviving a major push can be grounds for promotions and commendations. Or being shot for cowardice if they think he's lying (Ork Codex about "sneaky Orks" for that one).
Sisters are in a meh place on the table but when you dig into their fluff they're the militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy. The guard churches, shrines, Ecclesiarchal palaces, holy sites and pilgrimages. They fight in Wars of Faith and root out heretics. They're the standing army on Shrine Worlds and are a major force of it's PDFs. They are the militant force behind many Ecclesiarchy led crusades to reclaim/convert planets and they even police the Ecclesiarchy itself.
The numbers presented in the 5th Edition rulebook where frankly wrong, or only counted the Militant arms of the Sisters as they have an Order for just about everything.
Translating alien languages, as well as different dialects of Gothic? Order Diagolus.
Brokering relations between the various Noble houses and keeping them in line? Order Famolous.
Running just about every hospital in the Imperium? Order Hospitaler.
There are even Orders who safeguard and protect Imperium relics and Minor Orders who exist only to protect the sacred sites of the Imperium (such as the place the Emperor stood when he signed some treaty, and so on).
In the grand scheme of things they represent the Imperium's faith in the Emperor and the pinnacle of what a person can be. They had the best training by the best minds of the Imperium when they were the Brides of the Emperor and it's been handed down and expanded upon since the Reign of Blood.
They fight anyone, anywhere at anytime and can win through faith and zeal alone. Not through the millions of bodies of the Imperial Guard, or the trans-humanist augmentations of the Space Marines, but through hard training and unbreakable faith alone.
So why are they "useless"? Because most of their fluff stems from 2nd Edition? Because they don't appear in many Black Library books? Because they don't have Space Marine statlines or the untold numbers of the Imperial Guard?
They get defended by the people who know them. The people who seek to correct the errors of the uninformed who don't know what they do or why they exist. They're a major factor in the background, even if they aren't on the table and don't appear in that many BL books (I know they appear in the Cain series, in the first of the Grey Knights series, they have 2 novels of their own and the Daemonfuge graphic novel that never finished).
But lack of proof their involvement is not proof that they don't do anything. You just have to take it on faith.
Psienesis wrote: It is also of note that, as far as the GW studio is concerned, not a single Sister of Battle has ever turned to Chaos and betrayed the Emperor. No Space Marine can make the same claim about the Astartes.
Miriael Sabathiel fell to chaos.
Still a better track record than how many Marines again?
inkybones wrote: They all have the same haircut. Several hundred women with the same haircut, and no complaints? I have trouble buying that!
Someone isn't familiar with how religious cults work apparently.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
n0t_u wrote: Yeh, that's the GK that never had anyone fall...
And hopefully we don't get into the fell vs corrupted by debate...
You get a Grey Knight who "falls" to Khorne in the 3rd Grey Knights novel by Ben Counter. I mean if we're counting a Sister who only fell in a short story we might as well count the Grey Knight Justicar who went insane, became a champion of Khorne for a while all in an attempt to avoid possession by a Tzeentchian Daemon (don't worry, he gets better).
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
To the Above
Do you honestly not know what respectively means? / I was referring to Astartes as the SEALs and Guard as the Marines. It's safe to assume if no one has caught something in 10 posts you're wrong.
Gah, I was halfway through writing up a big response to this, and my computer froze up. Right, take two...
Brother SRM wrote: People defend them because they're pretty much the only representation of women in 40k.
Whilst this is a positive aspect to them, and an interesting quirk, they are far more than their gender. It might be the first thing that a lot of people see, but really, they're far more defined by their faith and status as the church's army. To me, and I think a lot of SoB fans, this is the bigger draw.
Brother SRM wrote: There hasn't been much fluff around them recently because GW haven't totally known what to do with them.
I don't think that this is quite the case. See, the main barrier to Sisters not getting a proper update has been modelling issues (which according to recent dev comments, have been resolved). When GW does write them, their 5e codex being a good example, they do quite a good job of it. Their fluff has generally portrayed them very well, defining their character as holy warriors as well as making them look suitably badass. So apparently GW can handle them just fine, but the modelling issues have preveneted that. However, as you touched upon, an incoming proper update should give us plenty of cool new fluff.
I can't blame you for thinking this, exactly. Their fluff is more obscure, hence the average 40K fan doesn't hear much about them, and can easily get the impression that they are fairly inactive. The lack of fluff on them itself also contributes to this. But as I said above, the lack of proper updates is mostly to blame for that. Once a proper codex is released, we'll likely hear more about them.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: They seem to be worth very little in comparison to the marines who simply seem to be traditional even if they are effective.
This is where the Acts of Faith come in. Through these, the Sisters are able to achieve "seemingly miriculous" feats, certainly a leveller to the superhuman biology of the Astartes. I recall Lynata mentioning that there was fluff that outright said that this made them the equals of Marines, but you'd have to ask him for the source on that.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: I would love to hear some stuff about sisters exploits to change my opinion.
Sure thing. One list of cool SoB exploits coming up (or at least as many as I can be bothered to type up):
- The siege of the Ecclesiarchial Palace. Back when they were Vandire's personal army. The Sisters held off four Marine Chapters, who had Mechanicus backup. It got to the point where the Custodes themselves thought it better to negotiate with the Sisters than to let the fighting drag on.
- The War for Piety: The Sisters launch a raid on a Daemon World (formerly a Shrine World) to recover holy relics. They fight through thr Daemons and successfully retrieve a few notable relics, and escpae just before the Grey Knight bomb the world clean.
- The Defence of Dimmamar: Eldar attack Sebastian Thor's homeworld. A Seraphim Superior walks through a Farseer's psychic lightning, which kills the rest of her squad, and kills the alien with a single bolt to the head.
- The San Leor Massacre: Red Corsairs attack the world from which the Sororitas originated, and are "utterly annihilated" by the Sororitas counter-attack.
- The Promethean War: Sisters team up with the Salamanders to burn Chaos good. The tide starts to turn against them when a Daemon Prince shows up, but then Celestine appears and cuts a swathe through the Choas forces before stabbing the Daemon Prince in his heart.
- Hammer and Anvil: A James Swallow book about Martyred Lady going back to Sanctuary 101. A good portrayal, has the Sisters steadfastly holding out against a numerically superior Necron force, and a Canoness duels a Necron Lord on his own command Monolith.
- The Avignor Uprising: A Forgeworld contribution, the Sisters help Arbites who are ubnable to contain a riot. To do this, the Sisters take possession of some Repressors, soup them up with flamers and heavy bolters, and use them to put down the riots.
- The Death of Antagonis: I'll put this one in spoilers, so if you don't want parts of this book spoiled, don't look!
Spoiler:
Canoness-Errant Setheno incites a population into a holy fervor, kills a Marine in one-on-one combat, and then, while still recovering from the Marine fight, kills a heretical Inquisitor and his Daemon minions.
- The Bones of Saint Emile: Cool story about a Sister driving her Rhino out of an Ork horde to save a relic. Here, read it for yourself.
Well... because we like them! An SoB fan arguing in their army's favour is really no different than a fan of any other army doing so.
But, speaking for myself, the reason I like the Sisters is because they are, as others have said, basically the pinnacle of the "normal" human in this setting. They have the best standard equipment, but they do without the genetic enchancements of the Astartes, battling on with sheer grit and resisting Chaos with sheer force of will. There's also their Acts of Faith, intense feats of willpower that drive them to seemingly miricaulous feats, several times per battle. No other army has that as a mechanic! Their aesthetic is also very unique, with things like pipe organ tanks, iconography everywhere and futuristic Sallets.
inkybones wrote: They all have the same haircut. Several hundred women with the same haircut, and no complaints? I have trouble buying that!
Why? Militaries enforce unifrom haircuts, don't they? On top of that, the Sisters are highly disciplined relgious fanatics. I would be surprised if they didn't have unifrom haircuts, really.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
To the Above
Do you honestly not know what respectively means? / I was referring to Astartes as the SEALs and Guard as the Marines. It's safe to assume if no one has caught something in 10 posts you're wrong.
Rating Guardsmen as high as the USMC is still to high. Your adverage Guardsman is trained in route to where he'll be deployed. On some planets (Cadia, Krieg and Catachan for instance) go above and beyond that and often through neccesity more than because they're that good.
Nice job pointing that out and ignoring the rest by the way.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @troike, you forgot Prexedus who killed a Hive Tyrant by bashing it's head in with a maul before she sucumbed to her wounds while her and her order held the line against a planetary invasion of Nids so the PDF could escape on the last available transports. They held the line so long that there where claims that they might have still been inside of that Hive Fleet actively fighting until the Imperium finally confirmed the Canness' death sometime later.
Troike wrote: Gah, I was halfway through writing up a big response to this, and my computer froze up. Right, take two...
Brother SRM wrote: People defend them because they're pretty much the only representation of women in 40k.
Whilst this is a positive aspect to them, and an interesting quirk, they are far more than their gender. It might be the first thing that a lot of people see, but really, they're far more defined by their faith and status as the church's army. To me, and I think a lot of SoB fans, this is the bigger draw.
Brother SRM wrote: There hasn't been much fluff around them recently because GW haven't totally known what to do with them.
I don't think that this is quite the case. See, the main barrier to Sisters not getting a proper update has been modelling issues (which according to recent dev comments, have been resolved). When GW does write them, their 5e codex being a good example, they do quite a good job of it. Their fluff has generally portrayed them very well, defining their character as holy warriors as well as making them look suitably badass. So apparently GW can handle them just fine, but the modelling issues have preveneted that. However, as you touched upon, an incoming proper update should give us plenty of cool new fluff.
I can't blame you for thinking this, exactly. Their fluff is more obscure, hence the average 40K fan doesn't hear much about them, and can easily get the impression that they are fairly inactive. The lack of fluff on them itself also contributes to this. But as I said above, the lack of proper updates is mostly to blame for that. Once a proper codex is released, we'll likely hear more about them.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: They seem to be worth very little in comparison to the marines who simply seem to be traditional even if they are effective.
This is where the Acts of Faith come in. Through these, the Sisters are able to achieve "seemingly miriculous" feats, certainly a leveller to the superhuman biology of the Astartes. I recall Lynata mentioning that there was fluff that outright said that this made them the equals of Marines, but you'd have to ask him for the source on that.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: I would love to hear some stuff about sisters exploits to change my opinion.
Sure thing. One list of cool SoB exploits coming up (or at least as many as I can be bothered to type up):
- The siege of the Ecclesiarchial Palace. Back when they were Vandire's personal army. The Sisters held off four Marine Chapters, who had Mechanicus backup. It got to the point where the Custodes themselves thought it better to negotiate with the Sisters than to let the fighting drag on.
- The War for Piety: The Sisters launch a raid on a Daemon World (formerly a Shrine World) to recover holy relics. They fight through thr Daemons and successfully retrieve a few notable relics, and escpae just before the Grey Knight bomb the world clean.
- The Defence of Dimmamar: Eldar attack Sebastian Thor's homeworld. A Seraphim Superior walks through a Farseer's psychic lightning, which kills the rest of her squad, and kills the alien with a single bolt to the head.
- The San Leor Massacre: Red Corsairs attack the world from which the Sororitas originated, and are "utterly annihilated" by the Sororitas counter-attack.
- The Promethean War: Sisters team up with the Salamanders to burn Chaos good. The tide starts to turn against them when a Daemon Prince shows up, but then Celestine appears and cuts a swathe through the Choas forces before stabbing the Daemon Prince in his heart.
- Hammer and Anvil: A James Swallow book about Martyred Lady going back to Sanctuary 101. A good portrayal, has the Sisters steadfastly holding out against a numerically superior Necron force, and a Canoness duels a Necron Lord on his own command Monolith.
- The Avignor Uprising: A Forgeworld contribution, the Sisters help Arbites who are ubnable to contain a riot. To do this, the Sisters take possession of some Repressors, soup them up with flamers and heavy bolters, and use them to put down the riots.
- The Death of Antagonis: I'll put this one in spoilers, so if you don't want parts of this book spoiled, don't look!
Spoiler:
Canoness-Errant Setheno incites a population into a holy fervor, kills a Marine in one-on-one combat, and then, while still recovering from the Marine fight, kills a heretical Inquisitor and his Daemon minions.
- The Bones of Saint Emile: Cool story about a Sister driving her Rhino out of an Ork horde to save a relic. Here, read it for yourself.
Well... because we like them! An SoB fan arguing in their army's favour is really no different than a fan of any other army doing so.
But, speaking for myself, the reason I like the Sisters is because they are, as others have said, basically the pinnacle of the "normal" human in this setting. They have the best standard equipment, but they do without the genetic enchancements of the Astartes, battling on with sheer grit and resisting Chaos with sheer force of will. There's also their Acts of Faith, intense feats of willpower that drive them to seemingly miricaulous feats, several times per battle. No other army has that as a mechanic! Their aesthetic is also very unique, with things like pipe organ tanks, iconography everywhere and futuristic Sallets.
inkybones wrote: They all have the same haircut. Several hundred women with the same haircut, and no complaints? I have trouble buying that!
Why? Militaries enforce unifrom haircuts, don't they? On top of that, the Sisters are highly disciplined relgious fanatics. I would be surprised if they didn't have unifrom haircuts, really.
She actually originated from a third-party card game, IIRC. Presumably the Abnett story came afterwards.
Actually pretty cool. Honestly wasn't aware that the sisters had a squad at every church, and ran every hospital. Makes them seem a little more significant to say the least.
They don't seem to have blatant "Mary Sues" compared to the marines which is a big point in their favor. I'm honestly enticed by the whole "Living Saint" thing. I love how it's based on the original Christian apostles and saints seeming unhuman.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
To the Above
Do you honestly not know what respectively means? / I was referring to Astartes as the SEALs and Guard as the Marines. It's safe to assume if no one has caught something in 10 posts you're wrong.
Rating Guardsmen as high as the USMC is still to high. Your adverage Guardsman is trained in route to where he'll be deployed. On some planets (Cadia, Krieg and Catachan for instance) go above and beyond that and often through neccesity more than because they're that good.
Nice job pointing that out and ignoring the rest by the way.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @troike, you forgot Prexedus who killed a Hive Tyrant by bashing it's head in with a maul before she sucumbed to her wounds while her and her order held the line against a planetary invasion of Nids so the PDF could escape on the last available transports. They held the line so long that there where claims that they might have still been inside of that Hive Fleet actively fighting until the Imperium finally confirmed the Canness' death sometime later.
You started your post with something hilariously wrong and so I couldn't take it seriously. Killing a hive tyrant? OK well if they only have one Mary Sue that's still better than the marines.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:When the imperium is tired of offing millions of guard to retake a planet they send in a chapter of marines who does the same task in a few months with few casualties.
Depending on where you look, it's the other way around.
"Space Marines are entrusted with all sorts of perilous missions, such as lightning raids behind enemy lines, infiltration attacks to capture vital positions, and tunnel fights in enemy held cities. They also undertake long voyages of planetary exploration and conquest on behalf of the Imperium, earmarking planets which are too well defended so that they can be attacked later with the support of the Imperial Guard." - Inquisitor: Adeptus Astartes
"Often, a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In conflicts such as these, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe." - 2E C:IG
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:This isn't really a fluffy question, but a converstation starter for all the sisters fanboys and fangirls we seem to have. The ultimate question I guess? Why do people defend them with fanaticism?
For the same reason all the Space Marine "fanboys and fangirls" defend their army with fanaticism. Personal preferences as expressed in certain aspects of the design behind the faction - in visuals as well as thematically. No army is more "gothic" than the Sisters of Battle in their medieval-looking power armour, and no other army combines the contradictory factors of selfless altruism and murderous zeal as well as they do. Where Space Marines embody vengeance and the Imperial Guard embodies tenacity, the Sisters of Battle embody hope. Yet, in a deliciously but suitable grimdark ironic way, they are simultaneously amongst the most ruthless forces the Imperium may field, and this sort of "contradiction" has an appeal all of its own, considering the overall style of the setting. Last but not least, for many it is also the fact that they are female heroines, which may be perceived as a refreshing change from the standard sci-fi and fantasy fare. The Sisters of Battle are, in essence, an army of Jeanne d'Arc's, and thus act as a symbol for several potentially popular traits, chief amongst them their purity and their conviction.
ClockworkZion delivered an excellent summary in merely two sentences when he compared the value of faith and training against sheer numbers and genetic enhancements. It makes me recall a similar post from Manchu which deserves to be brought up again as well:
Manchu wrote: I'd say it's their defining feature. It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" So instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in that power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch.
Pure. Badass.
ClockworkZion wrote:The numbers presented in the 5th Edition rulebook where frankly wrong, or only counted the Militant arms of the Sisters as they have an Order for just about everything.
To be fair, OP did ask only about the Sisters of Battle, and the current rulebook with its numbers only discusses them also.
The 5E BRB was only flawed in that it mentioned three instead of six Major Orders Militant, but as we know this error was not repeated.
As for the size of the Non-Militant Orders, I think the only published information on that topic was this:
"The practitioners of each discipline are organised into one of three major and a great many smaller Orders each utterly dedicated to the pursuit of its own sphere of influence. The members of these Orders are often to be found advising high-ranking members of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Terra and also accompany Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus, many of whom find their highly specialised knowledge invaluable in their own work. Some orders, such as the Orders Dialogous and Famulous, are known to be as large as the Orders Militant, whereas others may be little more than a handful of Sisters pursuing their obscure specialisation." - WD Liber Sororitas
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Actually pretty cool. Honestly wasn't aware that the sisters had a squad at every church, and ran every hospital. Makes them seem a little more significant to say the least.
Every church and every hospital? No. Absolutely not. At least not in GW's material.
Actually, I would say that as a purely military force, the Sisters of Battle are very insignificant in the setting simply due to their small numbers. The same can be said about the Space Marines. What matters is that (again, same as the Astartes) they make their presence count where they do show up, such as on Armageddon or during the 13th Black Crusade. The Sisters Militant serve as a symbol of the Ecclesiarchy's power and Mankind's faith, a beacon of hope, and a considerable morale boost for troops and civilians under pressure. That is their primary significance - all the many tasks they actually fulfill? Purity controls, witch hunts, protecting pilgrims, hunting down rogue Marines? That's just the practical part of their job.
You started your post with something hilariously wrong and so I couldn't take it seriously. Killing a hive tyrant? OK well if they only have one Mary Sue that's still better than the marines.
She was wounded by said Hive Tyrant and died from those wounds. Not so Mary Sue honestly. She fought on through her wounds which is what makes her impressive, for a human to fight on despite her pain and come out on top before ultimately dying, making the sacrifice so that the PDF could escape.
And when I hit "post reply" there where two replies, not 10.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: Actually pretty cool. Honestly wasn't aware that the sisters had a squad at every church, and ran every hospital. Makes them seem a little more significant to say the least.
I don't think that they quite have a squad at every church, but one of their main jobs is to guard the Ecclesiarchy. So yeah, expect them to be around Ecclesiarchy land a lot, which is itself very spread out. There's also Minor Orders, detatchments from a Major Order who have split off and settled down elsewhere, who could concievably be anywhere.
And yes, the Hospitallers are also a major Sororitas presence. Guardsmen seem to really respect them, with one in the Black Library novel "Gunheads" referring to Hospitallers as "angels", apparently. Other non-militant Sororitas include the Orders Dialogous, Orders Famulous , Orders Sabine and Orders Pronatus. So if you're looking at the Adepta Sororitas as a whole, rather than just the Orders Militant, they actually play a very wide range of roles in the Imperium.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: They don't seem to have blatant "Mary Sues" compared to the marines which is a big point in their favor.
Ephrael Stern is occasionally accused of being one, but I don't really agree. Her strong powers do have a justifiable source, and she never does anything as over the top of defacing a Daemon Primarch's heart.
Also, can't believe I forgot Stern from the list. Shame on me. But yeah, she's also another cool Sister. Stars in her own comic too.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: I'm honestly enticed by the whole "Living Saint" thing. I love how it's based on the original Christian apostles and saints seeming unhuman.
Yeah, it's an aspect of them that I'm very interested in too. It raises some very interesting implications, like how these Saints gain their powers. Two popular theories are that they are essentially "Daemon Princes" of the Emperor, or are conduits of the massed faith of the Sisters.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:When the imperium is tired of offing millions of guard to retake a planet they send in a chapter of marines who does the same task in a few months with few casualties.
Depending on where you look, it's the other way around.
"Space Marines are entrusted with all sorts of perilous missions, such as lightning raids behind enemy lines, infiltration attacks to capture vital positions, and tunnel fights in enemy held cities. They also undertake long voyages of planetary exploration and conquest on behalf of the Imperium, earmarking planets which are too well defended so that they can be attacked later with the support of the Imperial Guard." - Inquisitor: Adeptus Astartes
"Often, a conflict will be simply too large, the enemy too powerful, too numerous, or too well entrenched for local forces, ships, or Space Marines to defeat. In conflicts such as these, the really huge invasions, the wars that spread across whole star systems and decades of warp space, only the grinding steamroller of the Imperial Guard can hope to crush the foe." - 2E C:IG
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:This isn't really a fluffy question, but a converstation starter for all the sisters fanboys and fangirls we seem to have. The ultimate question I guess? Why do people defend them with fanaticism?
For the same reason all the Space Marine "fanboys and fangirls" defend their army with fanaticism. Personal preferences as expressed in certain aspects of the design behind the faction - in visuals as well as thematically. No army is more "gothic" than the Sisters of Battle in their medieval-looking power armour, and no other army combines the contradictory factors of selfless altruism and murderous zeal as well as they do. Where Space Marines embody vengeance and the Imperial Guard embodies tenacity, the Sisters of Battle embody hope. Yet, in a deliciously but suitable grimdark ironic way, they are simultaneously amongst the most ruthless forces the Imperium may field, and this sort of "contradiction" has an appeal all of its own, considering the overall style of the setting. Last but not least, for many it is also the fact that they are female heroines, which may be perceived as a refreshing change from the standard sci-fi and fantasy fare. The Sisters of Battle are, in essence, an army of Jeanne d'Arc's, and thus act as a symbol for several potentially popular traits, chief amongst them their purity and their conviction.
ClockworkZion delivered an excellent summary in merely two sentences when he compared the value of faith and training against sheer numbers and genetic enhancements. It makes me recall a similar post from Manchu which deserves to be brought up again as well:
Manchu wrote: I'd say it's their defining feature. It's like you take a Space Marine and say "what could make him cooler?" So instead of adding more super-genetic-psycho-organic modification, you take it all away. You have a regular human left in that power armor and all the armies of hell at the gates. And she doesn't even flinch.
Pure. Badass.
ClockworkZion wrote:The numbers presented in the 5th Edition rulebook where frankly wrong, or only counted the Militant arms of the Sisters as they have an Order for just about everything.
To be fair, OP did ask only about the Sisters of Battle, and the current rulebook with its numbers only discusses them also.
The 5E BRB was only flawed in that it mentioned three instead of six Major Orders Militant, but as we know this error was not repeated.
As for the size of the Non-Militant Orders, I think the only published information on that topic was this:
"The practitioners of each discipline are organised into one of three major and a great many smaller Orders each utterly dedicated to the pursuit of its own sphere of influence. The members of these Orders are often to be found advising high-ranking members of the Ecclesiarchy and the Adeptus Terra and also accompany Inquisitors of the Ordo Hereticus, many of whom find their highly specialised knowledge invaluable in their own work. Some orders, such as the Orders Dialogous and Famulous, are known to be as large as the Orders Militant, whereas others may be little more than a handful of Sisters pursuing their obscure specialisation." - WD Liber Sororitas
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Actually pretty cool. Honestly wasn't aware that the sisters had a squad at every church, and ran every hospital. Makes them seem a little more significant to say the least.
Every church and every hospital? No. Absolutely not. At least not in GW's material.
Actually, I would say that as a purely military force, the Sisters of Battle are very insignificant in the setting simply due to their small numbers. The same can be said about the Space Marines. What matters is that (again, same as the Astartes) they make their presence count where they do show up, such as on Armageddon or during the 13th Black Crusade. The Sisters Militant serve as a symbol of the Ecclesiarchy's power and Mankind's faith, a beacon of hope, and a considerable morale boost for troops and civilians under pressure. That is their primary significance - all the many tasks they actually fulfill? Purity controls, witch hunts, protecting pilgrims, hunting down rogue Marines? That's just the practical part of their job.
In all studio fluff it is the "a single chapter shows up after the imperial guard loses millions, takes care of the planetary resistance in entirety, loses like 50-100 brothers, and then f**ks off"
The only examples to the contrary are against entire dynasties of necrons, or entire hive fleets. You constantly make point to stick to studio fluff, and now you go around the side.......
Make of that what you will.
And said sister kills a hive tyrant? How the hell do you even hurt one of those unless you press like 10000 pounds with your power weapon arm? That's what we call over the top. If it was a living saint it'd be different but a canoness is very different in level of power to a stand out chapter master.
The sister that doesn't flinch? Dies that very second. Not really badass, but being a suicidal zealot. Doing that without being a zealot? That's badass. Still cool though.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: And said sister kills a hive tyrant? How the hell do you even hurt one of those unless you press like 10000 pounds with your power weapon arm?
She did have a power mace, and hit it straight in the face. I don't see how that's really all that unbelievable, a strike from a power weapon, wielded by somebody wearing power armour, right in the face, is going to be a world of hurt for pretty much anything.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: a canoness is very different in level of power to a stand out chapter master
But this was a stand out Canoness. And you have to accept that any army's leaders are going to have stories about them doing heroic, badass stuff. That's standard fare in 40K, really.
I disagree. The sheer dedication to their cause exhibited by the Sisters is rather badass, IMO. No matter the odds, even near-death, they fight on, unafraid of death.
Also, the flinching thing was a metaphor, not literal. By not flinching he means doesn't get afraid, not that they don't dodge things.
And said sister kills a hive tyrant? How the hell do you even hurt one of those unless you press like 10000 pounds with your power weapon arm? That's what we call over the top. If it was a living saint it'd be different but a canoness is very different in level of power to a stand out chapter master.
The sister that doesn't flinch? Dies that very second. Not really badass, but being a suicidal zealot. Doing that without being a zealot? That's badass. Still cool though.
Praxedus is a story that goes back to 2nd Ed Sisters. Either way a Canoness with a Power Maul is WS5, I4, S5, AP4, Concussive. A Hive Tyrant is only WS8, I6, T6 so it can be done. It'd take luck on the Canoness' part to pass those 4++ Invuls but it's not -impossible-. And nothing says the Hive Tyrant hadn't been hurt prior to this, just that she finished the job by caving it's head in. Plus the Canoness' Act of Faith gives Preferred Enemy during the Assault Phase so she re-rolls 1s to try and kill it.
But make of that what you will though.
Sisters don't flinch because they don't need too. They're well trained and well equipped. Each of them wears Power Armor that is just as effective as a Marines, carries a Boltgun that is not only as strong as a Marine's but they can fire just as effectively without any augments or technological help and their faith is so powerful it gives them an Invulnerable Save on the table (Shield of Faith, it's a 6++). They believe that the Emperor protects to the point that it actually happens. A Sister can and will walk away from being hit by a Lascannon through faith alone.
Oh and the Sisters are the only army I know of who has a unit who seek redemption by running into battle clad only in the torn shreds of their old robes while wielding Eviscerators, which are Chainswords with Powerfields that can CLEAVE LANDRAIDERS.
Saint Celestine was actually a Sister Repentia who somehow survived a massacre without a mark on her despite appearing to be dead when they found her. She just got more awesome from there.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:In all studio fluff it is the "a single chapter shows up after the imperial guard loses millions, takes care of the planetary resistance in entirety, loses like 50-100 brothers, and then f**ks off"
I don't know of any single incident in studio fluff where it happened that way. I know of plenty incidents to the contrary, though. If you want, I'd be game for a one-for-one comparison, especially when you're calling me out this way!
Troike wrote:She did have a power mace, and hit it straight in the face. I don't see how that's really all that unbelievable, a strike from a power weapon, wielded by somebody wearing power armour, right in the face, is going to be a world of hurt for pretty much anything.
My thoughts exactly. I often preach that technology acts as a huge "equaliser" and is more important than physical differences. This is but one example, and I'd argue that 40k merely continues what mankind started to do millennia ago.
Spoiler:
ClockworkZion wrote:Sisters don't flinch because they don't need too. They're well trained and well equipped.
And admittedly also very zealous.
Arguably, such attitude has its downsides, but in a world like 40k, it can undoubtedly also be a great boon.
Ooh, also, just dug up another good line regarding what I find fascinating about this army:
"Presenting the Sisters as holy and pure, yet vengeful and uncompromising, in my view compliments the Witch Hunters. On one hand providing an example to Humanity on the very best a person can aspire to, yet on the other showing the necessarily harsh actions Humanity's guardians must take in order to protect its future. By the standards of the 21st century, these girls are fanatical zealots, but in the context of the 41st millennium, they are paragons of virtue, whose every action is a manifestation of the divine will of the God-Emperor of Mankind. It's all a matter of perspective, you see." - WD #292, Andy Hoare, Designer's Notes
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: And said sister kills a hive tyrant? How the hell do you even hurt one of those unless you press like 10000 pounds with your power weapon arm?
She did have a power mace, and hit it straight in the face. I don't see how that's really all that unbelievable, a strike from a power weapon, wielded by somebody wearing power armour, right in the face, is going to be a world of hurt for pretty much anything.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: a canoness is very different in level of power to a stand out chapter master
But this was a stand out Canoness. And you have to accept that any army's leaders are going to have stories about them doing heroic, badass stuff. That's standard fare in 40K, really.
I disagree. The sheer dedication to their cause exhibited by the Sisters is rather badass, IMO. No matter the odds, even near-death, they fight on, unafraid of death.
Also, the flinching thing was a metaphor, not literal. By not flinching he means doesn't get afraid, not that they don't dodge things.
What's the next codex? Tyranids right? GW seems to be moving at unprecedented breakneck speeds in releasing new material, so they might do Sisters very early next year. Who's to say? GW has always been out of touch with the fanbase so they probably wouldn't even know how many supporters a new sisters codex would get them, so they wouldn't announce it ahead of time.
Sisters all have the same haircut? I don't think so. But I actually like the haircut they have to be honest. So whatever.
I'm primarily a chaos player, and I dabble in Word Bearers so I can kinda get to grasps with their fluff. I guess I just don't like the current minis. Like everyone else in the world.......
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:In all studio fluff it is the "a single chapter shows up after the imperial guard loses millions, takes care of the planetary resistance in entirety, loses like 50-100 brothers, and then f**ks off"
I don't know of any single incident in studio fluff where it happened that way. I know of plenty incidents to the contrary, though. If you want, I'd be game for a one-for-one comparison, especially when you're calling me out this way!
Troike wrote:She did have a power mace, and hit it straight in the face. I don't see how that's really all that unbelievable, a strike from a power weapon, wielded by somebody wearing power armour, right in the face, is going to be a world of hurt for pretty much anything.
My thoughts exactly. I often preach that technology acts as a huge "equaliser" and is more important than physical differences. This is but one example, and I'd argue that 40k merely continues what mankind started to do millennia ago.
Spoiler:
ClockworkZion wrote:Sisters don't flinch because they don't need too. They're well trained and well equipped.
And admittedly also very zealous.
Arguably, such attitude has its downsides, but in a world like 40k, it can undoubtedly also be a great boon.
Probably the most hilarious example I could give was Captain Titus and his 2 other bros wiping out an entire ork infestation (enemy count on hard is like 8000 for the whole game) and only losing the cool old dude in Space Marine. Actually a game I'll defend all day everday to my linemen friends.
You also know this is a chapter right? With their battle barge a piece that can wipe out planets by themselves. And not nessecarily a thousand brothers either. Some have upwards of 10000. Some also have personal titan legions. And the iron hands have nine of those bros who personally go toe to toe with thirsters who when summoned full power will wipe out a planet filled with mutants slowly on foot (really cool canon black crusade scenario)
I dare you to give an example where they were facing only humans with current tech and got their asses handed to them without dickery worthy of Tzeentch.
Based on the current rumours, and our own speculation, a late 2014 or early 2015 release for the Sisters seems most likely, right now. They do need all-new models and probably a big rules overhaul.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: GW has always been out of touch with the fanbase so they probably wouldn't even know how many supporters a new sisters codex would get them, so they wouldn't announce it ahead of time.
Oh, I'm quite sure that they're aware of the demand for Sisters. Their customer services gets lots of questions about them, and GW staff are usually asked about them at events and such. ClockworkZion also said that, at one point, GW stopped responding to questions about the Sisters, since people just kept asking.
And as for not announcing ahead of time, well...
-Sisters of Battle are definitely in the works, but still some way off, according to Jerv
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: I guess I just don't like the current minis. Like everyone else in the world.......
The SoB minis? Plenty of people like those, myself included. They do seem to be quite divisive as far as opinions go, but they're generally liked enough.
ClockworkZion wrote: Praxedus is a story that goes back to 2nd Ed Sisters. Either way a Canoness with a Power Maul is WS5, I4, S5, AP4, Concussive. A Hive Tyrant is only WS8, I6, T6 so it can be done. It'd take luck on the Canoness' part to pass those 4++ Invuls but it's not -impossible-. And nothing says the Hive Tyrant hadn't been hurt prior to this, just that she finished the job by caving it's head in. Plus the Canoness' Act of Faith gives Preferred Enemy during the Assault Phase so she re-rolls 1s to try and kill it.
Ha. Whilst I'm not sure that the crunch had all that much bearing on this piece of fluff, your mixing of the two did make me think of how the Sisters would view it in-universe, from a cruch perspective.
"And so did our blessed Canoness pass the 4++ invulnerable saves of the xenos beast, slaying it with her last breath. In this, she was aided by her own Act of Faith, having rolled a four or better during the begining of her assault phase. Ave Imperator".
True, mixing the fluff and the crunch into a single thought was a bit silly, but the crunch is supposed to be an extension of the fluff, is it not? I mean, there may be more of a gap if the numbers had a wider base but frankly it's not impossible to see happen. Just a small miracle instead.
I guess I'm just too pessimistic. I only hope your faith won't end in disappointment, Sister Troike.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Probably the most hilarious example I could give was Captain Titus and his 2 other bros wiping out an entire ork infestation (enemy count on hard is like 8000 for the whole game) and only losing the cool old dude in Space Marine. Actually a game I'll defend all day everday to my linemen friends.
As much as I enjoyed that game, that's not "studio fluff". I am well aware that the depiction of factions wavers depending on where you look, which is why I specifically made that distinction.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:I dare you to give an example where they were facing only humans with current tech and got their asses handed to them without dickery worthy of Tzeentch.
I *can* give you an example of a Marine Chapter getting wiped out by Orks, though.
Which is actually a pretty damn good story, as it not only discards the invulnerability some people ascribe to the Astartes, but also goes to show how far they'd go to make a point regarding their honour.
I confess, I like a bit of tragic in my stories. Another reason for why I fancy the SoB, I suppose.
Also, "personal Titan Legions", really...?
But this isn't a thread about Space Marines.
ClockworkZion wrote:True, mixing the fluff and the crunch into a single thought was a bit silly, but the crunch is supposed to be an extension of the fluff, is it not? I mean, there may be more of a gap if the numbers had a wider base but frankly it's not impossible to see happen. Just a small miracle instead.
I happen to see it in a somewhat similar way, I guess. The way I see it, the fluff is built around the crunch, and both need to synch on some level to make it "believable". Arguably, the TT rules - as much as we should keep in mind that they are but an abstraction - are also the only thing that applies to every army in the same way. No distortion via perspective, no plot armour, just numbers.
Lynata wrote: I guess I'm just too pessimistic. I only hope your faith won't end in disappointment, Sister Troike.
Faith aside, looking over the evidence avaliable, I do think that we'll see an update. And, I think this bears mentioning, a lack of solid updates in the past does not mean that we will never see such an update. The modelling issues seem to have been the key factor in this, and they are now resolved, according to the devs.
I'll also clarify that I'm a dude, in case you weren't just referencing the Sisters, there. Which you very well could have been.
ClockworkZion wrote: True, mixing the fluff and the crunch into a single thought was a bit silly, but the crunch is supposed to be an extension of the fluff, is it not?
I can agree with that. To some extent, anyway. All I was saying is that here, the point was to tell a story about a heroic SoB making a last stand against a powerful foe, crunch considerations probably took a backseat there. But as you've said, crunch and fluff do line up here, so it's a moot point.
But, to continue the analogy, as a named character, Praxedes may well have gotten buffs to her close comabt skills.
And said sister kills a hive tyrant? How the hell do you even hurt one of those unless you press like 10000 pounds with your power weapon arm? That's what we call over the top. If it was a living saint it'd be different but a canoness is very different in level of power to a stand out chapter master.
The sister that doesn't flinch? Dies that very second. Not really badass, but being a suicidal zealot. Doing that without being a zealot? That's badass. Still cool though.
Praxedus is a story that goes back to 2nd Ed Sisters. Either way a Canoness with a Power Maul is WS5, I4, S5, AP4, Concussive. A Hive Tyrant is only WS8, I6, T6 so it can be done. It'd take luck on the Canoness' part to pass those 4++ Invuls but it's not -impossible-. And nothing says the Hive Tyrant hadn't been hurt prior to this, just that she finished the job by caving it's head in. Plus the Canoness' Act of Faith gives Preferred Enemy during the Assault Phase so she re-rolls 1s to try and kill it.
But make of that what you will though.
Sisters don't flinch because they don't need too. They're well trained and well equipped. Each of them wears Power Armor that is just as effective as a Marines, carries a Boltgun that is not only as strong as a Marine's but they can fire just as effectively without any augments or technological help and their faith is so powerful it gives them an Invulnerable Save on the table (Shield of Faith, it's a 6++). They believe that the Emperor protects to the point that it actually happens. A Sister can and will walk away from being hit by a Lascannon through faith alone.
Oh and the Sisters are the only army I know of who has a unit who seek redemption by running into battle clad only in the torn shreds of their old robes while wielding Eviscerators, which are Chainswords with Powerfields that can CLEAVE LANDRAIDERS.
Saint Celestine was actually a Sister Repentia who somehow survived a massacre without a mark on her despite appearing to be dead when they found her. She just got more awesome from there.
How can their power armor be just as effective as space marines when they no black carapace?
Niexist wrote: How can their power armor be just as effective as space marines when they no black carapace?
It isn't, however I think the black carapace is more for the strength enhancement capability of the suit which the SoB version lacks if I remember right.
Niexist wrote: How can their power armor be just as effective as space marines when they no black carapace?
The Witch Hunters codex notes that the lack of black carapace means that the Sisters can't get the strength enchancement found with Astrartes power armour. However, what the Sisters are using is still ceramite, with the same power source as Astartes armour, so it'd be just as protective. It just wouldn't enhance their strength as much.
Niexist wrote: How can their power armor be just as effective as space marines when they no black carapace?
It's made of the same materials, uses the same technology, only lacks the advanced interface that makes it less reactive than the Marine armor so while it enhances strength and speed over normal humans it can't be used as fast or for as much as a Marine's can so they're strong for humans but not super human, same for speed.
Niexist wrote: How can their power armor be just as effective as space marines when they no black carapace?
The Witch Hunters codex notes that the lack of black carapace means that the Sisters can't get the strength enchancement found with Astrartes power armour. However, what the Sisters are using is still ceramite, with the same power source as Astartes armour, so it'd be just as protective. It just wouldn't enhance their strength as much.
From the wiki page on black carapace which says it is taken from 5E codex:
Note that a Space Marine needs the Black Carapace to use his Power Armour to its maximum capabilities, but the armour itself does not need this implant in order to function. The Sisters of Battle, for example, as well as some Inquisitors, also wear Power Armour. However, since their central nervous systems are not linked directly to their armour's Machine Spirit as a Space Marine would be, their Power Armour is markedly less efficient at providing protection or allowing them to maneuver in combat than that of an Astartes
So, no a SoB with power armor is not as well protected as a space marine, they also do not have the range of mobility as the astartes. I also see nothing regarding the power armor making them stronger so I don't think you're quite right on this one.
Eh. That's from the 40K wiki, which isn't always the most accurate or reliable source. See, they just stick their sources at the bottom of the page, rather than using lots of footnotes like the Lexicanum does, citing exact pieces of information to relevent sources. Because of that, lots of personal opinions or misinformation can filter in.
Anyway, looking at the tabletop stats, they definetely do provide the same amount of protection. Both tactical Marines and Sisters of Battle get a 3+ armour save.
And their power armour certainly does indeed seem to make them stronger. Note that they can carry around heavy weapons, like heavy flamers, multi-meltas and such. Ever see a guardsman mini carrying one of those? That one guy with the heavy bolter aside, of course.
Niexist wrote: So, no a SoB with power armor is not as well protected as a space marine, they also do not have the range of mobility as the astartes. I also see nothing regarding the power armor making them stronger so I don't think you're quite right on this one.
It takes two Guardsmen to crew/carry a Heavy Bolter. A single Sister can do that with no issue so I'd say strength enhancement would be needed to help them cope with carrying that heavy combat load for long periods of time.
Troike wrote: Eh. That's from the 40K wiki, which isn't always the most accurate or reliable source. See, they just stick their sources at the bottom of the page, rather than using lots of footnotes like the Lexicanum does, citing exact pieces of information to relevent sources. Because of that, lots of personal opinions or misinformation can filter in.
Anyway, looking at the tabletop stats, they definetely do provide the same amount of protection. Both tactical Marines and Sisters of Battle get a 3+ armour save.
And their power armour certainly does indeed seem to make them stronger. Note that they can carry around heavy weapons, like heavy flamers, multi-meltas and such. Ever see a guardsman mini carrying one of those? That one guy with the heavy bolter aside, of course.
Well, I'm seeing that quote I posted referenced on several websites, all with the source listed as 5E C:SM. If someone has the book, and can look it up that would be helpful. Also, the strength portion is about 10% of what we're talking about, let's stick to the other 90%
Just because something is repeated a lot doesn't make it true. For example, that wiki's page on Miriael Sabithael, which cites sources incorrectly and seems to be largely fanfiction, gets repeated a lot, to the point where people think it's true. And again, the tabletop stats have both Sisters and Marines getting the same armour save. How do you explain that?
What do you mean with those percentages? The point made was that whilst Sororitas armour does not provide the strength enhancement enjoyed by Astartes in their armour, it does still increase the strength of the Sister using it. This is demonstrably true, in that we see Sisters carrying around heavy weapons like multi-meltas or heavy bolters, whilst non-power armoured infantry, Gusrdsmen being the prime example, cannot carry such weapons.
The Adepta Sororitas use a version of power armour designed for the human shape and size, known as Sororitas Power Armour. Sororitas Power Armour is the only enduring legacy of the reign of Goge Vandire, who commissioned the armour for his Brides of the Emperor, where today it serves the Sisters of Battle. Crafted by the forges of Mars, Sororitas Power Armour is relatively lighter than most suits, providing excellent protection and increased strength at negligible loss to the user's mobility and agility. It uses the same power source as the Astartes, and thus will effectively last forever if properly maintained and undamaged.
Though Sororitas Power Armour provides the same level of protection as suits worn by the Space Marines, the lack of a Black Carapace means the Battle Sister cannot fully interface with the armour and so lacks the same strength enhancement and other advanced life-support features found in Astartes power armour.Still, Sororitas Power Armour does improve the user's strength and allows them to better handle heavy weapons more easily.
The 'Sabbat' Pattern Sororitas Helm has been a standard part of this power armour since the mid-38th Millennium. In addition to a comm-link and rebreather unit for limited operation in a total vacuum, the helmet includes full-spectrum filtering and psycho-oculal buffering to assist the (less physically durable) human mind from being rendered insensible by battlefield conditions.For the Battle Sisters of the Calixis Sector, this helm is issued only after they have proven themselves worthy of wearing it.
Sources are Codex: Witch Hunters and Blood of Martyrs (the Fantasy Flight Dark Heresy Supplement). Most of it is from Codex: Witch Hunters though.
Troike wrote: Just because something is repeated a lot doesn't make it true. For example, that wiki's page on Miriael Sabithael, which cites sources incorrectly and seems to be largely fanfiction, gets repeated a lot, to the point where people think it's true. And again, the tabletop stats have both Sisters and Marines getting the same armour save. How do you explain that?
What do you mean with those percentages? The point made was that whilst Sororitas armour does not provide the strength enhancement enjoyed by Astartes in their armour, it does still increase the strength of the Sister using it. This is demonstrably true, in that we see Sisters carrying around heavy weapons like multi-meltas or heavy bolters, whilst non-power armoured infantry, Gusrdsmen being the prime example, cannot carry such weapons.
What's more, in the few sources that speak about non-Astartes in power armor, it's spelled out directly. (Some will flinch to see it mentioned, but the subject is brought up, and Troike's point confirmed, in Cain's Last Stand.) For a more recent, and crunchier reference, the current Space Marine codex mentions that the black carapace is what allows the Space Marines to get so much more oomph from their power armor, although non-Astartes in power armor are still getting some extra power.
Niexist wrote: How can their power armor be just as effective as space marines when they no black carapace?
The Witch Hunters codex notes that the lack of black carapace means that the Sisters can't get the strength enchancement found with Astrartes power armour. However, what the Sisters are using is still ceramite, with the same power source as Astartes armour, so it'd be just as protective. It just wouldn't enhance their strength as much.
From the wiki page on black carapace which says it is taken from 5E codex:
Note that a Space Marine needs the Black Carapace to use his Power Armour to its maximum capabilities, but the armour itself does not need this implant in order to function. The Sisters of Battle, for example, as well as some Inquisitors, also wear Power Armour. However, since their central nervous systems are not linked directly to their armour's Machine Spirit as a Space Marine would be, their Power Armour is markedly less efficient at providing protection or allowing them to maneuver in combat than that of an Astartes
So, no a SoB with power armor is not as well protected as a space marine, they also do not have the range of mobility as the astartes. I also see nothing regarding the power armor making them stronger so I don't think you're quite right on this one.
From Codex: Witch-Hunters, pg. 19:
"The Sororitas Power Armor worn by the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced life support systems and strength-enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines, as the Sisters are not implanted with the Black Carapace that allows the Astartes to interface fully with their own armour."
Some might even argue that SoB power armor is superior to marine suits in some aspects.
They're lighter than most PA while providing the same physical protection which would indicate the materials used are first-rate stuff, not whatever salvaged ceramite a marine artificer might have to work with. And ofc, these suits are made by real Techpriests.
They're also standardized in one pattern - only some very special Canoness might possibly get a custom piece (they don't even have Artificer armor as an option in the WD codex) - which will make maintenance much, much easier and faster. Marines deck themself out with this-and-that old hero's glove, boots, shoulder pads and so on in the belief it helps him even if said piece would actually be inferior to his Mk7 due to battle damage or material fatigue.
What is lacking is the advanced life support (marines can handle vacuum and other hostile environments far longer) and the extra strength the black carapace lets a marine draw out of the suit. And the marine's better targeting systems, which seem to be just enough to keep his grossly increased adrenaline production from making him shoot worse than a Sister or a Stormtrooper. (Adrenaline makes you fight harder but your hands start shaking, impairing hand-eye coordination)
Spetulhu wrote: Some might even argue that SoB power armor is superior to marine suits in some aspects.
They're lighter than most PA while providing the same physical protection which would indicate the materials used are first-rate stuff, not whatever salvaged ceramite a marine artificer might have to work with. And ofc, these suits are made by real Techpriests.
They're also standardized in one pattern - only some very special Canoness might possibly get a custom piece (they don't even have Artificer armor as an option in the WD codex) - which will make maintenance much, much easier and faster. Marines deck themself out with this-and-that old hero's glove, boots, shoulder pads and so on in the belief it helps him even if said piece would actually be inferior to his Mk7 due to battle damage or material fatigue.
What is lacking is the advanced life support (marines can handle vacuum and other hostile environments far longer) and the extra strength the black carapace lets a marine draw out of the suit. And the marine's better targeting systems, which seem to be just enough to keep his grossly increased adrenaline production from making him shoot worse than a Sister or a Stormtrooper. (Adrenaline makes you fight harder but your hands start shaking, impairing hand-eye coordination)
Even with that being said, they still lack the ability to interface with the machine spirit of the power armor, so at any time it could decide to stop moving while a round of heavy bolters is coming toward the sister.
Niexist wrote: Even with that being said, they still lack the ability to interface with the machine spirit of the power armor, so at any time it could decide to stop moving while a round of heavy bolters is coming toward the sister.
Could be. Or a marine wearing a mix of four different marks of PA gets a blackout when the machine spirits of the different parts have a spat about which one is the best, starting when the Mk6 Corvus helmet sees an enemy it recognizes from the Heresy.
Niexist wrote: Even with that being said, they still lack the ability to interface with the machine spirit of the power armor, so at any time it could decide to stop moving while a round of heavy bolters is coming toward the sister.
That's the same risk an Inquisitor in Power Armor (and by extension Terminator Armor) has. The difference is usually presented however as the power armor being less responsive and precise, basically meaning that it takes just a moment longer to respond to the wearer's movements, and manual dexterity would be akin to doing things with a really thick pair of gloves on, as in not easy.
The Sisters obviously train around this to get the most out of their equipment, but there are limitations as they can't exceed the limitations of the armor, even if they are already adapted too them.
This is why the direct interface of the Space Marine's armor is generally better, it doesn't have the delay in communicating the movement that the less direct method (which I'm guessing is likely a kind of force-feedback setup, or something like the Starship Troopers novel presents where the inside is basically a big series of pressure switches that communicate your actions by you moving your actual body, and pressing on them. Or perhaps it could be like the Emotiv headset where it works off of neural impulses, but read passively meaning it has to read them, interpret them and then act out the impulses all of which takes a short amount of time, but it's enough that it's noticeably slower than a Marine's direct input hookup). Add in that a Marine is also getting the sensory information from the power armor fed back into his body and his manual dexterity is higher, even though he faces the same problem of the thick gloves he instead can feel things and adjust accordingly.
To give an example a Marine could easily pick up an egg without harming it while in Power Armor and without really thinking about it, while the Sister would have to use more conscious effort to do so as she is not actually feeling the object she's picking up, doesn't have a full sense of how firmly she's grasping it and even how she's grasped it without giving it at least some of her conscious attention.
EDIT: Yes, I've spent at least sometime considering how the power armor works, and that's why I'm a nerd.
FFG explains this by making anyone dressed in PA have the "Hulking" attribute, which makes them easier to hit by other people with ranged attacks... but Space Marines ignore this because of their Black Carapace. They wear their PA like a second skin, whereas others do not.
n0t_u wrote: Yeh, that's the GK that never had anyone fall...
And hopefully we don't get into the fell vs corrupted by debate...
Except the grey knights were formed from space marine chapters. So yes and no.
Well that, and as I pointed out, if we're going to count non-codex based characters, Grey Knights have someone who fell too. He may have gotten better, but he still got branded with the Mark of Khorne and all the lovely joy that occured there.
While I don't know much of their fluff, I have had one significant experience with Sisters in Battle in my readings.
I cannot recall what the book's title was, but a chapter of Space Marines and Guardsmen (I believe they were actually milita, but no matter) were attempting to defend a city from a Tyranid fleet. Very cool book, changed perspective a a great deal. It even took the perspective of a gang leader in the city many times.
(Note, my memory is not the best. These details may or may not be accurate and contain very minor spoilers to a book.)
At any rate, towards the end of the book there is a Sister of Battle from the Order Hospitaller, I believe. She was tending to the wounded citizens during the conflict, no power armor, no fancy tech or weapons, just the faith in the Emperor in her heart and mind and a Bolter in her hand.
By herself, she held of dozens off Tyranid until running out of ammo, but her sacrifice let dozens of people escape to safety behind her.
Keep in mind this was a non-militant order and just insanely bad-ass. Not to mention touching to see a soul in the grim-dark future of the 41st Millennium who is willing to lay down their life to save others because they care.
ShadowMageAlpha wrote: While I don't know much of their fluff, I have had one significant experience with Sisters in Battle in my readings.
I cannot recall what the book's title was, but a chapter of Space Marines and Guardsmen (I believe they were actually milita, but no matter) were attempting to defend a city from a Tyranid fleet. Very cool book, changed perspective a a great deal. It even took the perspective of a gang leader in the city many times.
(Note, my memory is not the best. These details may or may not be accurate and contain very minor spoilers to a book.)
At any rate, towards the end of the book there is a Sister of Battle from the Order Hospitaller, I believe. She was tending to the wounded citizens during the conflict, no power armor, no fancy tech or weapons, just the faith in the Emperor in her heart and mind and a Bolter in her hand.
By herself, she held of dozens off Tyranid until running out of ammo, but her sacrifice let dozens of people escape to safety behind her.
Keep in mind this was a non-militant order and just insanely bad-ass. Not to mention touching to see a soul in the grim-dark future of the 41st Millennium who is willing to lay down their life to save others because they care.
Yeah, that has been a big thing about Sisters I love: their compassion for their fellow man (as long as he's not a witch, mutant or heretic anyways). Praxedes' sacrifice and her order holding the line to let the PDF escape on those last transports is another good event that I really dig as well. You know you've reached epic levels of awesome when you hold that line so long that people are certain that you still live on and are fighting the hive fleet from the inside.
Niexist wrote:Even with that being said, they still lack the ability to interface with the machine spirit of the power armor, so at any time it could decide to stop moving while a round of heavy bolters is coming toward the sister.
The same could happen to a Space Marine. The basic mechanisms are identical (the Codex notes that both versions of power armour are built from the same designs), it's just that the Space Marines (and some other people) command their suits via an implant whereas the Sisters use another method (likely nerve impulse electrodes or pressure sensors).
Psienesis wrote:FFG explains this by making anyone dressed in PA have the "Hulking" attribute, which makes them easier to hit by other people with ranged attacks... but Space Marines ignore this because of their Black Carapace. They wear their PA like a second skin, whereas others do not.
As much as I enjoyed their games, FFG has a lot of strange rules in their books, and this is just one example. As this negation of the "to hit" bonus is ascribed to the Black Carapace and the ability to manoeuver, it should depend on the target actually moving and evading. Yet even a Space Marine who is totally unaware of the attacker, and standing perfectly still, is somehow 10% harder to hit than the smaller power-armoured human next to him. Madness.
That being said, FFG also differentiated between "Power Armour" and "Light Power Armour", giving Space Marines the former and Sisters the latter. This "Light Power Armour" is less protective (yet another contradiction to Codex fluff), but it also does not make the wearer Hulking. This part at least makes sense, as the Sisters' armour barely increases their profile. Then again, the same could be said about the Space Marines.
Frankly, I find the whole "PA = Hulking" bit rather fishy. The difference between a Catachan and a Hiver is larger, yet the Catachan won't get Hulking either.
Psienesis wrote:From Codex: Witch-Hunters, pg. 19:
"The Sororitas Power Armor worn by the Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant is based upon the same archaic systems as that worn by the brethren of the Adeptus Astartes. It provides the same degree of armoured protection, yet must forego the more advanced life support systems and strength-enhancing abilities used by the Space Marines, as the Sisters are not implanted with the Black Carapace that allows the Astartes to interface fully with their own armour."
And from the same book:
"The Sisters of Battle are exceptionally well equipped, with armour and weapons the equal of any Space Marine Chapter."
The various wikis, and this includes Lexicanum, are problematic in that their articles almost always include some sort of interpretation by the editor, whether it is deliberate or simply a result of an attempt to merge sources that were never meant to go with each other.
And maybe that's just some sort of subconscious bias of mine (let's be fair, we all have it somewhere), but though I know it's a popular theory I don't actually see much room for a notable delay in power armour controls, regardless of whether the user has a Black Carapace or not. Consider that, ultimately, the distance between source and destination of the movement command does not change much. The only difference is that the Marine's signal is already picked up within his body, whereas for a non-implanted person this happens on the dermal level. And in both cases, the armour will react the same way once it has received the command. Where I could see a difference is that there is still a delay that, whilst minimal and almost immeasurable, is still large enough to make the suit feel like an alien entity, whereas for the Marine it is an extension for his body. Or perhaps it is this "force feedback" idea that CWZ has mentioned that achieves a similar effect.
For comparison, perhaps it helps to imagine the difference between a new driver who gets to try out a car for their first time - they'll need a while until they learn exactly how the car reacts to their hands on the wheel and feet on the pedals, but eventually they'll get the hang of it and some may turn out to be awesome racers. With a Space Marine, they just sit down and drive as if they'd always done so and as if the car were a part of them.
According to the Index Astartes article on Marine implants, the Black Carapace also has other, situationally more important advantages that should not be forgotten, though, such as serving as the interface between the user's body and the suit's biomonitor and drug-dispenser. Surely, the armour will be able to receive more accurate lifesign readings when the sensors are not placed on but rather directly in the body?
ShadowMageAlpha wrote:While I don't know much of their fluff, I have had one significant experience with Sisters in Battle in my readings. I cannot recall what the book's title was, but a chapter of Space Marines and Guardsmen (I believe they were actually milita, but no matter) were attempting to defend a city from a Tyranid fleet. Very cool book, changed perspective a a great deal. It even took the perspective of a gang leader in the city many times. [...] towards the end of the book there is a Sister of Battle from the Order Hospitaller, I believe. She was tending to the wounded citizens during the conflict, no power armor, no fancy tech or weapons, just the faith in the Emperor in her heart and mind and a Bolter in her hand.
Huh, that sounds like a cool book. If you ever recall the title, feel free to shoot me a PM with it.
I love it because it makes me want to play my next game using my Sisters of Battle. : D
I hate it for the same reason, because I just spent nearly 200 dollars on the new Space Marine Codex and a box of Centurions (wow, that price tag is depressing), and am planning on spending another small bundle on 5 Sternguard to be a bodyguard for my Marines' shooty-inclined Chapter Master. : (
I love it because it makes me want to play my next game using my Sisters of Battle. : D
I hate it for the same reason, because I just spent nearly 200 dollars on the new Space Marine Codex and a box of Centurions (wow, that price tag is depressing), and am planning on spending another small bundle on 5 Sternguard to be a bodyguard for my Marines' shooty-inclined Chapter Master. : (
I know that feeling. Everytime I think I'm going to take a break from them for a while I end up running into a thread like this, being reminding of how flat-out awesome they are, and wanting to play them again.
I love the current, old as hell, Sisters model range. I think the army is currently in the opposite situation the Dark Eldar were before their new Codex. The old DE army had a very solid rule set, but horrible models. I love the Sisters model range, but the rules do leave something to be desired.
I'm rather surprised by this thread. I was going in expecting a whole lot of trolling and venom, and was prepared to dish out some of my own, but this turned out to be pretty darn civil.
And yeah, as far as the models, I love a lot of the basic Sisters models, particularly Seraphim.
curran12 wrote: I'm rather surprised by this thread. I was going in expecting a whole lot of trolling and venom, and was prepared to dish out some of my own, but this turned out to be pretty darn civil.
And yeah, as far as the models, I love a lot of the basic Sisters models, particularly Seraphim.
Seraphim are nice outside of those thin foot-stalks that connect them to their tabs/bases. Those bend/break so easilly.
curran12 wrote: I'm rather surprised by this thread. I was going in expecting a whole lot of trolling and venom, and was prepared to dish out some of my own, but this turned out to be pretty darn civil.
And yeah, as far as the models, I love a lot of the basic Sisters models, particularly Seraphim.
No lies, Seraphim models were what swayed me to start a Sisters army. Particularly love the Seraphim superior with the Sabbat helmet.
curran12 wrote: I'm rather surprised by this thread. I was going in expecting a whole lot of trolling and venom, and was prepared to dish out some of my own, but this turned out to be pretty darn civil.
And yeah, as far as the models, I love a lot of the basic Sisters models, particularly Seraphim.
No lies, Seraphim models were what swayed me to start a Sisters army. Particularly love the Seraphim superior with the Sabbat helmet.
The Exorcist tank (GW's, not FW's quasi-Whirlwind one) is what got me hooked. The idea of something that over the top just hooked me completely and I knew I had to know more. As I dug further into the army's background the more enthralled I got and then I ended up playing/collecting them.
I don't like the current sculpt of the sisters, but that's only because there's only like 3 Battle Sister scupts and the same 3 models get really repetitive when painting. I painted a Sisters army for a commission and was so sick of them by the time I was done.
c0j1r0 wrote: I don't like the current sculpt of the sisters, but that's only because there's only like 3 Battle Sister scupts and the same 3 models get really repetitive when painting. I painted a Sisters army for a commission and was so sick of them by the time I was done.
Umm. That is incorrect. There are WAY more than 3:
c0j1r0 wrote: I don't like the current sculpt of the sisters, but that's only because there's only like 3 Battle Sister scupts and the same 3 models get really repetitive when painting. I painted a Sisters army for a commission and was so sick of them by the time I was done.
Actually there are seven different sculpts for Sisters with bolters.
c0j1r0 wrote: I don't like the current sculpt of the sisters, but that's only because there's only like 3 Battle Sister scupts and the same 3 models get really repetitive when painting. I painted a Sisters army for a commission and was so sick of them by the time I was done.
That's actually a misconception that Sisters don't have that many different models.There are in fact there are more than just 3 Battle Sister Sculpts. At one point I did a count of all the currently available unique models:
HQs: 13 Total - Canoness, Jacobus, Kyrinov, Celestine, Diagolus, Hospitaller, Sister with Blessed Banner, 2 Death Cult Assassins, 2 Crusaders, 2 Arco-Flagallants (Yes I know the Battle Conclave shares stuff with the Grey Knights, but so do almost all of the Marine variants so I've included them here for completeness)
Elites: 8 Total - 4 Repentia, Mistress of Repentance, 3 Preachers
Troops: 22 Total - 7 Bolter Sisters, 2 Flamers, 2 Melta, 2 Storm Bolter, Heavy Bolter, Heavy Flamer, Multi-Melta, Sister with Simulacrum Imperalis, 5 Sister Superiors
Fast Attack: 5 Total - 2 Seraphim, Seraphim with Hand Flamers, 2 Seraphim Superiors
Heavy Support: 2 Total - Exorcist, Penitent Engine
Dedicated Transports: 1 Total (it's the same model, it just builds two things) - Immolator
Forge World of course adds 3 Flyers, the Repressor and an alternate Exorcist into the mix, but this is about GW's support.
So what's that give Sisters for their line exactly? 51 different models in their line, some that are spread through multiple FOCs. Honestly that's not too bad overall for a line of models from 2nd Edition (save a couple of toys that were added in 3rd). There were a few more variants but those have been discontinued over the years (to include another Canoness model, and a different Banner model).
So there are a fair number of different models out there (I used the GW site and my collection to count up the models).
I been sharing this around a bit, it's a tumblr-blog dedicated to Sisters of Battle art from all sorts of sources. It's not a super-huge archive or anything right now, but it's got some good pieces in it.
I been sharing this around a bit, it's a tumblr-blog dedicated to Sisters of Battle art from all sorts of sources. It's not a super-huge archive or anything right now, but it's got some good pieces in it.
Thanks for the link, added that to what I follow, some pretty good stuff in here for art. Even though I have my issues with the "Wolf and Sister" comic, I can appreciate the art style.
I been sharing this around a bit, it's a tumblr-blog dedicated to Sisters of Battle art from all sorts of sources. It's not a super-huge archive or anything right now, but it's got some good pieces in it.
Yeah, I'm with you on Wolf & Sister. I like the art, but I just can't get into the fundamentals of the story.
I'm just glad to see a story where Sisters are being awesome even if a large amount of it reads as impractical or silly.
Excuse me, but did I read the wrong comic? All the Sisters do in "Wolf and Sister" are get killed, get saved by big men and watch helplessly as their Cannoness is -INSTANTLY- corrupted.
I could go on a well-trodden rant on this, but the only reason for the Sisters in that comic are to have hot babes to rescue and be protective over.
Yeah, I'm with you on Wolf & Sister. I like the art, but I just can't get into the fundamentals of the story.
I'm just glad to see a story where Sisters are being awesome even if a large amount of it reads as impractical or silly.
Excuse me, but did I read the wrong comic? All the Sisters do in "Wolf and Sister" are get killed, get saved by big men and watch helplessly as their Cannoness is -INSTANTLY- corrupted.
I could go on a well-trodden rant on this, but the only reason for the Sisters in that comic are to have hot babes to rescue and be protective over.
Perhaps it's been too long since I've read any of it, or I'm just starved for more Sisters stuff at this point because I could have sword it wasn't that bad. Guess I'll need to re-read it.
inkybones wrote: They all have the same haircut. Several hundred women with the same haircut, and no complaints? I have trouble buying that!
That killed me! In the military, US that is, women are allowed freedom with their hair as long as it doesn't get past a certain length(or un-natural colors), because the military knows women wouldn't join if they had to have a cookie-cutter haircut like the men. Bahaha! True story, I was there.
It's the female army of 40k, that's about it. I'd probably think they were cooler if they weren't just second-hand SM but I can see why GW went that way. "We want a female choice, let's make a female variant of our most popular army in hopes that it will garner more female customers. And we'll make them fanatically religious, which the Emperor despised, but whatever."
Perhaps it's been too long since I've read any of it, or I'm just starved for more Sisters stuff at this point because I could have sword it wasn't that bad. Guess I'll need to re-read it.
Help if it was still being updated too.
I looked over what was around (I don't think it is still being updated) again just to make sure and, well if you really want, I can put on my literature education and degree/writer hat and really break down how un-awesome the Sisters characters actually are.
60mm wrote: It's the female army of 40k, that's about it. I'd probably think they were cooler if they weren't just second-hand SM but I can see why GW went that way. "We want a female choice, let's make a female variant of our most popular army in hopes that it will garner more female customers. And we'll make them fanatically religious, which the Emperor despised, but whatever."
Someone lied to you there. Sisters were never just distaff counterparts to the Marines but a separate thing from the get go. In Rogue Trader they were basically a kind of internal police force who would deal with things like purging Marines. 2nd Edition made them the Militant arm of the Ecclesiarchy and expanded them beyond an internal police force of the Imperium.
It's the female army of 40k, that's about it. I'd probably think they were cooler if they weren't just second-hand SM but I can see why GW went that way. "We want a female choice, let's make a female variant of our most popular army in hopes that it will garner more female customers. And we'll make them fanatically religious, which the Emperor despised, but whatever."
Even most SM Chapters are fanatically religious. The vast majority of them (99%) are not from an era that ever knew the Emperor as a Man, and would be from planets where he is revered as some sort of deity.
And, no, women in the US military cannot wear their hair however they like. It has to maintain a professional, feminine appearance (though the definition of "feminine" is apparently very broad). A woman I was in AIT with at Fort Gordon got the same buzz-cut the rest of us got, and got some sort of disciplinary action taken against her by the CO.
Perhaps it's been too long since I've read any of it, or I'm just starved for more Sisters stuff at this point because I could have sword it wasn't that bad. Guess I'll need to re-read it.
Help if it was still being updated too.
I looked over what was around (I don't think it is still being updated) again just to make sure and, well if you really want, I can put on my literature education and degree/writer hat and really break down how un-awesome the Sisters characters actually are.
No that's fine. I think I was applying the fact that the lead female character wasn't completely useless as "Sisters being done well" on some subconcious level so I could enjoy it.
Guess that's what happens when you run out of stuff to read on them and you start getting desperate.
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Psienesis wrote: Even most SM Chapters are fanatically religious. The vast majority of them (99%) are not from an era that ever knew the Emperor as a Man, and would be from planets where he is revered as some sort of deity.
Actually most Marines aren't religious. At least not in the kind of way the Sisters are. Yes there are a few chapters that are, but most revere the Emperor as a kind of father figure rather than a god.
Psienesis wrote: And, no, women in the US military cannot wear their hair however they like. It has to maintain a professional, feminine appearance (though the definition of "feminine" is apparently very broad). A woman I was in AIT with at Fort Gordon got the same buzz-cut the rest of us got, and got some sort of disciplinary action taken against her by the CO.
While I was in (I just got out this year) women could buzz their hair off or keep it that short, so it seems the powers that be eventually relaxed on the "women can't be bald!" thing.
It's unfortunate, too, because I think a good story could be told about a priory of the Sisters of Battle deploying alongside (though not according to plan) a squad of the nearly-pagan Space Wolves... but this comic ain't that story.
No that's fine. I think I was applying the fact that the lead female character wasn't completely useless as "Sisters being done well" on some subconcious level so I could enjoy it.
Guess that's what happens when you run out of stuff to read on them and you start getting desperate.
In all honesty, I understand where you're coming from. When I first saw it, it looked awesome. And it looked like the Sisters were doing awesome things on first glance.
But if you look it over and think about it some, how exactly are the Sisters portrayed?
In pretty much every scene, they are either background material, or when they are shown fighting, in almost every fight, they are losing. The "Sister" character is notable in this, as she is the most helpless character, made even moreso by not speaking. This is just painfully lazy writing.
Psienesis wrote: It's unfortunate, too, because I think a good story could be told about a priory of the Sisters of Battle deploying alongside (though not according to plan) a squad of the nearly-pagan Space Wolves... but this comic ain't that story.
Yeah. Instead it is Wolf Brother Man Meatmuscle having to escort a supposed 'veteran' battle Sister around who is utterly helpless and clingy.
No one lied to me, that was my assumption. Was unaware they'd been around so long. I've been into 40k since 2000 but never got into Imperium fluff. Still can't say I see them as anything other than second-rate marines though.
Power Armor?
-Check
SM Weaponry?
-Check
Worse Stats?
-Check
Second-rate SM
I'm not knocking on them for being the female army nor do I have an inherent dislike in anything about them. Just find their design lazy. Like if a race of female Orks came out that were basically Orks with T3 and a different fashion sense. Pop the confetti, here comes something new!
Psienesis wrote: It's unfortunate, too, because I think a good story could be told about a priory of the Sisters of Battle deploying alongside (though not according to plan) a squad of the nearly-pagan Space Wolves... but this comic ain't that story.
A lot of good potiental stories out there. I'm still waiting for the BL Novel(s) that follows a young orphan girl through the Scholera, through training as an Adeptus Sororitas, her eventual time as a Superior, her failure and grief that makes her take the Vow of Repentance, her eventual return as a Celestian and then her leading an Order as a Canoness.
I mean if we can have a series of books about a child going to school (Harry Potter) is this so far fetched?
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60mm wrote: No one lied to me, that was my assumption. Was unaware they'd been around so long. I've been into 40k since 2000 but never got into Imperium fluff. Still can't say I see them as anything other than second-rate marines though.
Power Armor?
-Check
SM Weaponry?
-Check
Worse Stats?
-Check
Second-rate SM
I'm not knocking on them for being the female army or for having an inherent dislike in anything about them. Just find their design lazy. Like if a race of female Orks came out that were basically Orks with T3 and a different fashion sense. Pop the confetti, here comes something new!
Sisters are ordinary human beings who are the pinnacle of what training, equipment and faith can get you WITHOUT being a transhuman mutant called a "Space Marine". They're more like what you'd get if you took Vet Guard, put them in Power Armor and gave them Bolters and made them all religious fanatics than "second-rate Marines".
60mm wrote: No one lied to me, that was my assumption. Was unaware they'd been around so long. I've been into 40k since 2000 but never got into Imperium fluff. Still can't say I see them as anything other than second-rate marines though.
Power Armor?
-Check
SM Weaponry?
-Check
Worse Stats?
-Check
Second-rate SM
I'm not knocking on them for being the female army nor do I have an inherent dislike in anything about them. Just find their design lazy. Like if a race of female Orks came out that were basically Orks with T3 and a different fashion sense. Pop the confetti, here comes something new!
And yeah, that's demonstrably wrong. I love seeing posts like this, and wish you could come up for a game and see how second rate they are. ;p
Jump infantry that can kick out 4 flame templates/melta shots? Check.
The best HQ in the game for points cost? Check.
Some of the best anti elite infantry weapons in the game? Check.
60mm wrote: No one lied to me, that was my assumption. Was unaware they'd been around so long. I've been into 40k since 2000 but never got into Imperium fluff. Still can't say I see them as anything other than second-rate marines though.
Power Armor?
-Check
SM Weaponry?
-Check
Worse Stats?
-Check
Second-rate SM
I'm not knocking on them for being the female army nor do I have an inherent dislike in anything about them. Just find their design lazy. Like if a race of female Orks came out that were basically Orks with T3 and a different fashion sense. Pop the confetti, here comes something new!
And yeah, that's demonstrably wrong. I love seeing posts like this, and wish you could come up for a game and see how second rate they are. ;p
Jump infantry that can kick out 4 flame templates/melta shots? Check.
The best HQ in the game for points cost? Check.
Some of the best anti elite infantry weapons in the game? Check.
I've seen them in games. I've seen a single Celestine wipe an Ork army that obviously beat the crap out of the SoB player because she stood back up every turn. I'm not saying they are second-rate or bad on the board. I'm saying they are SM with lower stats and handout the same gear to squads differently. Which they literally are on the board. They are cheaper marines that happen to have an under-costed HQ.
And the reason we can't have Vet Guard running around for the Ecclesiarchy is because of a rule that they can't have "Men Under Arms", cue using women to get around the wording because the Ecclesiarchy still NEEDS an army for it's MANY duties.
That and the Guard belong to a different branch of the Imperium.
They are nuns who held off, basically, the entire military of the Imperium and several Space Marine Chapters who were attacking the Imperial Palace... for months.
They are nuns who are *also* veteran soldiers.
And the sense that it makes, in-universe, is because they are the sole regular military forces of the Ecclesiarchy, which is not permitted to have "men under arms", following the end of the Age of Apostasy.
Psienesis wrote: They are nuns who held off, basically, the entire military of the Imperium and several Space Marine Chapters who were attacking the Imperial Palace... for months.
I'm not disbelieving that is in the official fluff, but still find it unbelievable to an extreme. I think its time I exit this thread as I'm just gonna upset SoB fans. Cheers.
Psienesis wrote: They are nuns who held off, basically, the entire military of the Imperium and several Space Marine Chapters who were attacking the Imperial Palace... for months.
They are nuns who are *also* veteran soldiers.
And the sense that it makes, in-universe, is because they are the sole regular military forces of the Ecclesiarchy, which is not permitted to have "men under arms", following the end of the Age of Apostasy.
Yup. From the Vandire article:
The Fabricator-General of the Adeptus Mechanicus ordered several regiments of Tech Guard to attack Vandire's Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra; this force was joined by Space Marines from several chapters, including the Imperial Fists, Black Templars, Soul Drinkers, and Fire Hawks. The assault on the impenetrable fortress that is the palace was difficult - not only due to the fortifications themselves, but also because the Brides of the Emperor had been expanded to a force of over 10,000 elite warriors. The campaign to remove Vandire from power bogged down into a lengthy siege.
That's the Mechanicus and at least FOUR Space Marine chapters. It took the Marines less time to evict the Traitor Legions off of Terra than it did the Sisters of Battle (who ultimately ended the siege) and they were only 10,000 ordinary humans who stood toe to toe with the Marines successfully.
Psienesis wrote: They are nuns who held off, basically, the entire military of the Imperium and several Space Marine Chapters who were attacking the Imperial Palace... for months.
I'm not disbelieving that is in the official fluff, but still find it unbelievable to an extreme. I think its time I exit this thread as I'm just gonna upset SoB fans. Cheers.
I'm sorry that you don't want to believe that the Sisters of Battle do with fury, faith and fire what the Space Marines cannot do with all their genetic-manipulated wizardry, but, there you go.
Psienesis wrote: They are nuns who held off, basically, the entire military of the Imperium and several Space Marine Chapters who were attacking the Imperial Palace... for months.
I'm not disbelieving that is in the official fluff, but still find it unbelievable to an extreme. I think its time I exit this thread as I'm just gonna upset SoB fans. Cheers.
I'm sorry that you don't want to believe that the Sisters of Battle do with fury, faith and fire what the Space Marines cannot do with all their genetic-manipulated wizardry, but, there you go.
Their kung-fu is, indeed, better than yours.
The Brides of the Emperor (as they were known at the time) were trained by the best technical and tactical minds the Imperium had to offer. They essentially only do two things when not actively engaged in conflict or on a mission: train and pray. You can bet that many of them do both at the same time too, even now.
I do love how quickly people bail when presented with evidence that Sisters aren't just distaff Marines with worse stats. It plays out like that almost every time.
"I do love how quickly people bail when presented with evidence that Sisters aren't just distaff Marines with worse stats. It plays out like that almost every time."
No, just politely agreeing to disagree. We can't all like the same things and I have no issues with anyone liking SoB.
60mm wrote: "I do love how quickly people bail when presented with evidence that Sisters aren't just distaff Marines with worse stats. It plays out like that almost every time."
No, just politely agreeing to disagree. We can't all like the same things and I have no issues with anyone liking SoB.
I'm not saying everyone has to like the same things, but every time I've seen someone claim that Sisters are something along the lines of "watered-down Marines" and are presented with evidence that they're not intended to just be Marines with boobs and worse stats but have an actual place in the game dating back to Rogue Trader and even have a logical and well thought out reason to exist in the setting they split.
That isn't to say you have to like them, but for some reason being told they're wrong with evidence to back it up makes people beat feet rather quickly.
Well, that's the thing. I mean, you can disagree, but that would be like me disagreeing that Horus turned against the Emperor. It's the information presented to us, time and time again, in the Codices and rulebooks of the game as well as many of their supporting novels. The Sisters are badasses. It's pretty much all there is to it.
Got a Space Marine Chapter turning Renegade? Send the Sisters.
Got a planet breaking away from the Imperial Creed? Send the Sisters.
Got a suspicion that this planet has been infiltrated by Xenos and breeding with the local populace? Send the Sisters.
Need to defend the billions of light-years of pilgrim's paths that criss-cross the Imperium from the threat of pirates and Xenos? Send the Sisters.
Need to guard an ancient holy relic or Shrine? Send the Sisters.
So, in a sense, you're disagreeing with the faction being cool because you don't like the way that the studio has presented the faction being cool and explaining why they're cool. That would be like me arguing that SW aren't cool because they ride wolves... I mean, sure, that's kind of silly... but it is also kind of awesome.
90mm wrote:Power Armor?
-Check
SM Weaponry?
-Check
Worse Stats?
-Check
Second-rate SM
Only if you go by those players - often Marine fans - who seem incapable of accepting their spot as Badass Warriors, maybe even feel threatened by the existence of the Sisters of Battle and thus compelled to ignore GW own writings in favour of some vision that makes them less capable. There's a lot of background being passed on via "word of mouth" in this community, and I've seen quite a few posters (and even novel authors or P&P designers!) propagate a version of the Sororitas that seems very different from the one in the Codex, to the point where I no longer wonder why a lot of fans don't have much faith (hah!) in them. It's almost like some sort of revisionist movement trying to push the SoB away from the top.
"As the Chamber Militant of the galaxy-spanning Ecclesiarchy, the Sisters of Battle are fierce warriors that are equals to their brother Space Marines. What the Sisters lack in genetic enhancement they make up for in faith and devotion." - GW website
Fortunately, there's quite a number of Marine players who feel different, mimicking the relationship that both forces have on the tabletop:
"Occasionally the Battle Sisters will have common cause with the firce Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes. Although the relationship between these two organisations is only civil at best, the Space Marines and Battle Sisters both respect each other's prowess and skill at arms. Many times, the foes of the Imperium have been eradicated by a combined attack from these two elite forces." - 2E C:SoB
Call me an idealist, but to me, that's how it oughta be between the fans, too.
I'm going to have to both disagree with you and agree at the same time. You're very spot on about how catering to a certain taste allows those tropes and cliches to enter into the story, but I am going to stick to that allowing those slips is the mark of lazy writing, especially if you consider what the story's future would look like.
By making the Sister character mute and having no memory of her past (double your cliches, double your fun!), you've created the laziest zero-effort protagonist ever. The "Sister" has pretty much become an inventory item. She doesn't speak, so she has no way of showing much of an opinion on anything (because hey, who wants their women to be too lippy? Look at what happened to the woman who talked back to the Space Wolf in the comic! She got insta-demoned!) and has no way of doing anything other than being led around or following another character around. It's already portrayed her as weak, so it isn't like she has the power to overwhelm Slab Chunkhead and his Wolf buddies.
And what better way for a lazy author to have a 'female protagonist' by setting her up so that it is impossible for her to communicate, there's no channel to her past and there's absolutely no potential for her to grew as a character unless Biff Punchfist is there guiding her around.
I confess, I only read half the comic until I grew bored of how the Sisters are "portrayed" there. I've got no problem with male power fantasies (I like the old Conan movies!), but sheesh, there are lines that don't have to be crossed.
Lynata wrote: Well, I suppose you have a point there ...
I confess, I only read half the comic until I grew bored of how the Sisters are "portrayed" there. I've got no problem with male power fantasies (I like the old Conan movies!), but sheesh, there are lines that don't have to be crossed.
Right.
And this is not to say that the author of Wolf and Sister had some kind of sexist agenda. I doubt the thought even crossed their mind. It's just the situation where old and boring tropes are a lot easier than figuring out a development arc for the Sister character when, in all honesty, they are more interested in Crunch Bonemeal and his adventures. It is not like this guy was rubbing his hands together at how he was sticking it to women.
The guy most likely started planning out Gristle McThornbody's plot and got to the point where he wants a big action piece to open his story with. Not a bad idea, it grabs the reader and sweeps them up into the flow of events. But they wanted to show that he is more than just some berserker, so instead of just going in to club heads, he has to have some wider goal, like a rescue. But who do you rescue in 40k?
Civilians? Eh...not really, as anyone with any handle on 40k fluff knows that civilians are just not priority things for anyone.
Other Space Marines? Not a good fit, as it is two of the same things. Marines, especially in the hands of an amateur (and even professional) writer, just are not different enough. Plus you don't want Marines bailing out Marines.
Guard? Much more likely, but...they're guard...eh...
Sisters? Hey! They aren't marines, and they are more like guard...and they are cute women! Winner!
But he ran into a problem...he had no idea to do with a Sister sidekick or ancillary character. So we take the easy path of removing their voice and memory, thus giving you the cute girl without the needless burden of figuring out anything to do with her.
Harriticus wrote: They don't have to be useless, it's just they're so neglected by GW that they've become useless.
Don't think I understand your reasoning, here. A lack of updates doesn't retcon the things that've been referenced in this thread. They're still quite useful.
And, as I said earlier, the neglect has largely been due to modelling issues preventing the creation of plastic Sisters minis. But, those have, according to the developers, been overcome now.
Psienesis wrote: I been sharing this around a bit, it's a tumblr-blog dedicated to Sisters of Battle art from all sorts of sources. It's not a super-huge archive or anything right now, but it's got some good pieces in it.
Nice, even had a few I hadn't got yet. Edit: Oooh, quite a few I haven't got yet. My Sororitas folder will be even more stuffed after this. I really must try to organise that thing sometime.
Speaking of SoB art, I wish that art thread hadn't been locked. I had a lot of cool SoB art I wanted to post. :-/
Psienesis wrote: Well, that's the thing. I mean, you can disagree, but that would be like me disagreeing that Horus turned against the Emperor. It's the information presented to us, time and time again, in the Codices and rulebooks of the game as well as many of their supporting novels. The Sisters are badasses. It's pretty much all there is to it.
I think that this is a problem that the Sisters face. Sure, the average 40K fan is going to know about the Horus Heresy quite well. But the Sisters? Their fluff is much more obscure. A lot of it's in older publications, and the more recent stuff (their WD codex and BL novels) might not cross the path of the average fan either. Because of this, it's easy for people to get impressions like "they don't do anything" or "they're weak". While the codex fluff and a lot of the non-codex fluff says quite the opposite.
This is why I'm hopeful that a new codex will have lots of good fluff. That should hopefully make their true character more known to people, as well as encouraging more fluff to be written about them.
Psienesis wrote: It's unfortunate, too, because I think a good story could be told about a priory of the Sisters of Battle deploying alongside (though not according to plan) a squad of the nearly-pagan Space Wolves...
Indeed. Tensions would be high, but they'd have to work to overcome the mutual distrust in order to unite against the enemy. In fact, a recent BL novel, Blood of Asaheim, apparently does this quite well, having a somewhat strained SoB and SW team-up. A guy who read it tells me that it portrays the Sisters well, too, and has them as badass in their own right.
Lynata wrote: It's almost like some sort of revisionist movement trying to push the SoB away from the top.
As I've said, I think of lot of that is partly, perhaps even mostly, due to popular misconceptions about the Sisters, largely due to their fluff being fairly obscure. For example, them being a very limited, specialised force unable to fight under certain conditions is a very common one, despite there being codex fluff disproving this. People often do reconsider their views when they see the appropriate codex fluff.
Harriticus wrote:They don't have to be useless, it's just they're so neglected by GW that they've become useless.
Don't think I understand your reasoning, here. A lack of updates doesn't retcon the things that've been referenced in this thread. They're still quite useful.
One could say that the lack of updates has made them useless in the eyes of the average fan, perhaps.
Troike wrote:Sure, the average 40K fan is going to know about the Horus Heresy quite well. But the Sisters? Their fluff is much more obscure. A lot of it's in older publications, and the more recent stuff (their WD codex and BL novels) might not cross the path of the average fan either.
Or even worse, what does cross their path is the BL and FFG books where the Sisters were "nerfed" compared to their original fluff.
Part of my scepticism regarding non-GW material is due to how it sometimes portrays entire factions (and not just the Sisters) in a completely different light - and I worry how this would affect the "victim's" reputation in the community. A lot of people still assume there is a sort of "universal canon" for 40k, and even more have never seen the original GW material about something and thus are unaware of any contradictions.
Troike wrote:For example, them being a very limited, specialised force unable to fight under certain conditions is a very common one, despite there being codex fluff disproving this. People often do reconsider their views when they see the appropriate codex fluff.
Really? The most common view I encountered is the one where they are a very large (talking millions or billions) but weak force, much closer to Guardsmen than Space Marines, essentially being "Guard +1" but handicapped by a lack of armoured vehicles. As if every world would have a bunch of Sisters hanging around, but who aren't capable of doing much aside from getting killed when things get tough so the real heroes can take over.
I'm not sure I've ever seen someone openly sceptical of the Sisterhood reconsider their opinion, but I like to think that a lot of people who still had an open mind and were just reading along were swayed that way. Most people who actually bother to argue something are already so convinced of their position that the chance to change it is very low. Besides, given how the fluff works in 40k, the others would be just as "right" as we are, so it's really just a matter of personal preferences...
Lynata wrote: One could say that the lack of updates has made them useless in the eyes of the average fan, perhaps.
I'd take it a little further and say it's a combination of the Sisters not being a mainline army that everyone sees and reads about all the time, and a misconception caused by people who look at their statline and assume they're watered down Marines instead of the whole picture.
Lynata wrote: Or even worse, what does cross their path is the BL and FFG books where the Sisters were "nerfed" compared to their original fluff.
Part of my scepticism regarding non-GW material is due to how it sometimes portrays entire factions (and not just the Sisters) in a completely different light - and I worry how this would affect the "victim's" reputation in the community. A lot of people still assume there is a sort of "universal canon" for 40k, and even more have never seen the original GW material about something and thus are unaware of any contradictions.
I wouldn't say FFG "nerfed" Sisters but perhaps Flanderized them a bit as supernatural walking Miracle Dispensers in Power Armor. And don't get me wrong, I love the more gray areas of their fluff with how the Living Saints work and the fact that their faith is strong enough to give the the ability to survive what should kill them, but FFG definitely took it a lot farther and made it more blatant and common. It makes the true Miracles in the fluff less miraculous to me.
And I've got mixed feelings about BL's use of Sisters. In the Word Bearer books we have a very quick mentioning of some rather horrible things happening to a coven of Sisters (basically a "Kick the Dog" moment to establish that they're the BAD GUYS....as if we didn't know).
On the flip side we have Hammer and Anvil, one of the best Sister stories I've read to date where
Spoiler:
they retrieve the titular Hammer and Anvil, a book written by their founding saint AND the break a MOON to stop the Necrons
.
I love that book.
Lynata wrote: Really? The most common view I encountered is the one where they are a very large (talking millions or billions) but weak force, much closer to Guardsmen than Space Marines, essentially being "Guard +1" but handicapped by a lack of armoured vehicles. As if every world would have a bunch of Sisters hanging around, but who aren't capable of doing much aside from getting killed when things get tough so the real heroes can take over.
I'm not sure I've ever seen someone openly sceptical of the Sisterhood reconsider their opinion, but I like to think that a lot of people who still had an open mind and were just reading along were swayed that way. Most people who actually bother to argue something are already so convinced of their position that the chance to change it is very low. Besides, given how the fluff works in 40k, the others would be just as "right" as we are, so it's really just a matter of personal preferences...
I've run into the "not very many Sisters" thing more than the one you have. 5th Edition really screwed up people's perceptions on how many there are, and I still scratch my head trying to figure out why it's such a small number.
Lynata wrote: One could say that the lack of updates has made them useless in the eyes of the average fan, perhaps.
Sure, but that doesn't mean that they actually are useless.
Lynata wrote: Or even worse, what does cross their path is the BL and FFG books where the Sisters were "nerfed" compared to their original fluff.
Indeed. The Cain books are perhaps the greatest example of this. Very popular books, bad depiction of the Sisters. Especially that one Sister who goes around drinking and having secret affairs.
Lynata wrote: Really? The most common view I encountered is the one where they are a very large
I meant limited in the tactical sense. People who say things like "oh, they can't fight under x condtion because they're not trained/equiped for it". That sort of thing.
Lynata wrote: I'm not sure I've ever seen someone openly sceptical of the Sisterhood reconsider their opinion, but I like to think that a lot of people who still had an open mind and were just reading along were swayed that way.
Wasn't necessarily just referring to the ones who are very critical of the Sisters, can be the ones who just have misconceptions, too.
ClockworkZion wrote: I've run into the "not very many Sisters" thing more than the one you have. 5th Edition really screwed up people's perceptions on how many there are, and I still scratch my head trying to figure out why it's such a small number.
5e made an error, they missed out half of the major Orders, which has been corrected since.
Indeed. The Cain books are perhaps the greatest example of this. Very popular books, bad depiction of the Sisters. Especially that one Sister who goes around drinking and having secret affairs.
Actually the Cain novels have a very accurate depiciton of the Sororitas with the exception of that often quoted and debated character.
Every other member of the Sisterhood described in the books are brave, fanatical and devoted warriors who the rest of the Imperial forces (in universe) are respectful off downright in awe of - including the Guard veterans..............the only person in universe to have an issue with them is Cain himself and thats only because he thinks they are too gung ho................and he keeps his opinions to himself for the most part.
Mr Morden wrote: Actually the Cain novels have a very accurate depiciton of the Sororitas with the exception of that often quoted and debated character.
Every other member of the Sisterhood described in the books are brave, fanatical and devoted warriors who the rest of the Imperial forces (in universe) are respectful off downright in awe of - including the Guard veterans..............the only person in universe to have an issue with them is Cain himself and thats only because he thinks they are too gung ho................and he keeps his opinions to himself for the most part.
Eh, I can't really agree with you. In it, we have:
- Sisters who recklessly charge alone and unsupported into Tyranids. The Sisters are elite soldiers as well as zealots, it's odd for them to make such a tactical blunder. The Order these Sisters belong to are also massively duped by an Inquisitor, to the point where he is somehow able to store a Lictor in their base, and end up blowing themselves up (IIRC, maybe it was a last stand. I do remember that they all got killed). - A Sister who drinks, gambles, and has secret affairs. Needless to say, this completely contradicts their fluff of being insanely dedicated to their duties, spending their days praying and training. - A whole group of Sisters being mind controlled into giving up their faith and helping Space Hitler. It's a well established part of their fluff that they have extremely storng willpowers, and can resist warp stuff like that.
So overall, every major depiction of them is negative or inaccurate. I will agree that Mitchell also treats them well at times, like Cain's disbelief at Sisters turning traitor or him describing them as "the Emperor's most dedicated servants", but the overall depiction is still not good, IMO.
As for the Cain being an unreliable narrator thing, doesn't really change anything. Yes he's clearly quite biased against them, but they still actually do the stuff I've mentioned.
OP: Because not everyone has to have a hard-on for Space Marines. Variety of forces in a game is a good thing.
Sisters of Battle don't seem to be relevant lately , but all the wondrously over-the-top gak about the Space Marines is a recent innovation to get more fanboys for GW's flagship army. For example, Grey Knights seem so much cooler than the SoB as a force unless you are a old-timer that remembers that they used to be a shadowy organization that was represented by a single squad entry in the game until the Daemonhunters codex was written.
Sisters of Battle are cool, but in the realm of "cool" modern 40K fluff and rules, they are just suffering from being woefully out-of-date.
In 40K fluff, they represent the special-ops segment of the most powerful organization in ALL of Humanity, aside from the Adeptus Mechanicus. If you go by how fluff should work in the 40K setting, a Sisters force should be able to do practically what they want to on a world, because everyone is either fanatically supporting them, or terrified of angering the church.
AegisGrimm wrote: Sisters of Battle are cool, but in the realm of "cool" modern 40K fluff and rules, they are just suffering from being woefully out-of-date.
Their own codex fluff is fine. Consistently badass, captures their character well. It's just not in the spotlight much due to the obscurity of their 5e codex. And hey, from what I've heard their rulebook fluff is rather good too. Seems that their fluff is just under-represented. I can agree about their rules, though. Those certainly need updating.
AegisGrimm wrote: Sisters of Battle are cool, but in the realm of "cool" modern 40K fluff and rules, they are just suffering from being woefully out-of-date.
Their own codex fluff is fine. Consistently badass, captures their character well. It's just not in the spotlight much due to the obscurity of their 5e codex. And hey, from what I've heard their rulebook fluff is rather good too. Seems that their fluff is just under-represented. I can agree about their rules, though. Those certainly need updating.
True. My last statement was probably brought on by hearing so many people on Dakka think that an army is gak if it's not right up to date with all the others. I personally think that Sisters have always had a cool codex. I got into them when they first came out in the tail end of 2nd edition, and I think their rules were good then, through Witchhunters, to the WD codex.
AegisGrimm wrote: Sisters of Battle are cool, but in the realm of "cool" modern 40K fluff and rules, they are just suffering from being woefully out-of-date.
Their own codex fluff is fine. Consistently badass, captures their character well. It's just not in the spotlight much due to the obscurity of their 5e codex. And hey, from what I've heard their rulebook fluff is rather good too. Seems that their fluff is just under-represented. I can agree about their rules, though. Those certainly need updating.
True. My last statement was probably brought on by hearing so many people on Dakka think that an army is gak if it's not right up to date with all the others. I personally think that Sisters have always had a cool codex. I got into them when they first came out in the tail end of 2nd edition, and I think their rules were good then, through Witchhunters, to the WD codex.
My personal experience is that current codex is functional, isn't that bad to play, and it's actually pretty fun.
The problems I've got with it is the lack of options in the book. After a while you've done everything the book has to offer you and run out of real options and things start getting stale because there are a lot of bad choices in the current game. The other issue I've got with it comes from how it stacks up against other books. We're far too highly costed, even counting in bonuses from Acts of Faith and the Shield of Faith a possible reason why. There is really no reason we should be 2 points cheaper than a Space Marine. I'm not trying to sound like I'm whining but without some sweeping changes 10 points is a much more fair cost for what we're fielding.
Otherwise the whole the army is great, and once you get past Internet hyperbole the model selection isn't that bad, nor are they that badly sculpted. The only real models I have actual qualms with are the Repentia Mistress (because she stole Madonna's bra apparently) and the Dialogus (because they really phoned it in on her face and it looks pretty freaky).
Though a Finecast Penitent Engine would be alright. At leas then I wouldn't have to work so hard to assemble it, and then pray that it doesn't decide to fall apart when breathed on. Great looking model, horrible thing to put together.
Other than that I have no real complaints about the army. It's aged far better than most armies from the same era, it has the tools to handle most things (save for fliers naturally, but FW and Fortifications have us covered there) and really I have a hard time being upset with it and end up inspired to play them again everytime I end up running into a thread like this one.
They're halfway between a guardsman and a grey knight. Used to fight corruption when the grey knights aren't available.
Model wise GW are currently having a lot of trouble putting their intricate designs into plastic moulds and sprues, that's why we haven't seen anything yet... but watch this space.
Brother SRM wrote: People defend them because they're pretty much the only representation of women in 40k. People also tend to get defensive about their own armies being distinct.
They're also people in power armor who aren't genetically enhanced, which is unique. There hasn't been much fluff around them recently because GW haven't totally known what to do with them. When they get a new codex and new models, you'll see a lot more of them in the background.
I wouldn't say they are the only representation of women in 40k, I mean, we have the Eldar, Dark Eldar, Inquisition, and Chaos Daemons. Moving out of the model range, there are female members of the guard and most of the Imperium's military organisations. I'm not saying their a bad army or anything, but I don't believe GW really knows what to do with them, or if they even want to. Nuns with guns might be a cool concept to some, but I'm not sure GW is confident with their selling ability towards their target demographic.
Now before someone comes at me with the infallible word of the design team, I'm someone doubtful we'll be seeing the Sisters in their own codex. Not squatted, just a diminished in game role.
phantommaster wrote: They're halfway between a guardsman and a grey knight. Used to fight corruption when the grey knights aren't available.
Model wise GW are currently having a lot of trouble putting their intricate designs into plastic moulds and sprues, that's why we haven't seen anything yet... but watch this space.
Sisters burn witches and heretics. Grey Knights fight Daemon incursions. They aren't between a Guardsman and a Grey Knight. It's between a Stormtrooper and Space marine at best.
ClockworkZion wrote:I wouldn't say FFG "nerfed" Sisters but perhaps Flanderized them a bit as supernatural walking Miracle Dispensers in Power Armor. And don't get me wrong, I love the more gray areas of their fluff with how the Living Saints work and the fact that their faith is strong enough to give the the ability to survive what should kill them, but FFG definitely took it a lot farther and made it more blatant and common. It makes the true Miracles in the fluff less miraculous to me.
There is that - which keeps bothering me to no end .. it also makes the Sisters less badass because, in FFG's world, they are basically "just space magicians", and what lets them overcome various obstacles is less their own badassness but rather some unseen divine force intervening on their behalf.
But I was also referring to how their equipment is utterly subpar to that of FFG's Space Marines, to the point where their guns aren't even able to hurt them (1d10+5 Pen4 vs, in extreme cases, AP10 TB10+) and their armour is considerably less protective, both things directly contradicting the Codex fluff - and in FFG's background they are said to be capable of "turning back armies of Orks or renegade Imperial Guardsmen" as if this is the best they could do, totally glossing over the fact that GW background has them being the go-to killers for when the Ordo Hereticus condemns a Space Marine Chapter to excommunication and purging.
As I said, "Guardsmen +1". Much of this can surely be attributed to the extreme power gaps between Dark Heresy and Deathwatch, and the special game-mechanical issues concerning toughness bonus, but ultimately it just ends up suggesting a less capable picture than the original studio fluff.
But yes, some BL books are nice on the Sisters. Shamefully, those tend to be the less popular ones - it's a vicious cycle where people aren't interested in the Sisters and thus don't buy the books that make them interesting. Almost replicating the problem the Sororitas have on the tabletop, by being an unpopular army at least in part because it gets little support from the company, which in turn happens because few people play them.
ClockworkZion wrote:I've run into the "not very many Sisters" thing more than the one you have. 5th Edition really screwed up people's perceptions on how many there are
But the numbers in the 5E background, as flawed as they were compared to other GW books, don't seem so far removed from the studio standard. All the book did was making the mistake of saying there's three Major Orders instead of six - the statement that the Major Orders have thousands of warriors, whilst the Minor ones only have about ~100 each, is entirely in line with GW fluff prior and past this book. In essence, 5E's book has the Sororitas have about 10.000 Battle Sisters less than in any other GW source. That's not that much of a difference, is it?
ClockworkZion wrote:and I still scratch my head trying to figure out why it's such a small number
Extremely high recruitment standards, combat casualties, replacement speeds of equipment, and a political consideration of not amassing too much military might in a short time, coupled with a passive acceptance that the current numbers are sufficient for what they're meant to do - at least those are the reasons I'm seeing.
Also, the Minor Orders are basically unplanned spin-offs that separate from their maternal Major Order to take care of one specific region or task - the only convents created by Ecclesiarchal decree are the Major Orders, and those are based in the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum, with both facilities being limited in how many Sisters they can house (15.000 each). Unless the primary Convents are expanded again, there's just no room to create one or more new Major Orders.
AegisGrimm wrote:Sisters of Battle don't seem to be relevant lately [...]
Although it deserves to be said that GW has at least started to write some cool new stuff on them. There needs to be more, but it's already a step above of the silence that dominated the last couple years.
Unfortunately, half of GW still keeps forgetting about them, such as them missing from the new Apocalypse book. It really makes me think that the company isn't sure what to do with them, or that one hand doesn't know what the other is doing.
You also raise a good point about how the franchise seems to have changed over the decades ...
Imposter101 wrote:Sisters burn witches and heretics. Grey Knights fight Daemon incursions. They aren't between a Guardsman and a Grey Knight. It's between a Stormtrooper and Space marine at best.
Sisters burn pretty much anything deemed "enemy". Witches, xenos, rogue Space Marines, you name it.
The 3E Codex had a huge list for reasons why the various armies in the tabletop would be attacked by them, and the 5E Codex has them raid a Demon World. They don't have the Grey Knights' psychic powers, but they do have a conviction strong enough to have a chance at nullifying psychic powers.
A couple of these ones got some further points. It was mentioned that originally there had been a technical problem with developing Sisters plastics, but that Games Workshop would now have the technology to be able to do them.
As for them not getting their own codex, well, if they wanted to fold them into something else then why didn't they do it when the GKs got their own codex? That would have been a "way out" if that was their intention, but they seperated them off and gave them their own codex. And, of course, the Jes Goodwin interview above and comments from Phil Kelly at Enter the Citadel do seem to say that modelling issues were the main barrier to them getting an update. If they wanted to silently get rid of them, why worry about modelling issues? It's a significant monetary investment to develop new plastics, why have that on the agenda for an army you want to shuffle off to the sidelines?
phantommaster wrote: They're halfway between a guardsman and a grey knight. Used to fight corruption when the grey knights aren't available.
Model wise GW are currently having a lot of trouble putting their intricate designs into plastic moulds and sprues, that's why we haven't seen anything yet... but watch this space.
Imposter101 wrote: Sisters burn witches and heretics. Grey Knights fight Daemon incursions. They aren't between a Guardsman and a Grey Knight. It's between a Stormtrooper and Space marine at best.
Actually, the SoB codex has them raiding a Daemon world and escaping again. Granted Daemon hunting isn't their main job, but in their line of work, they're bound to come across Daemons sometimes They've shown that they can handle Daemons when they cross paths. And I think that the comparison to a GK is apt, in that the Sisters too are some of the best at resisting Chaotic influence.
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Lynata wrote: the statement that the Major Orders have thousands of warriors, whilst the Minor ones only have about ~100 each, is entirely in line with GW fluff prior and past this book. In essence, 5E's book has the Sororitas have about 10.000 Battle Sisters less than in any other GW source.
According to the codex fluff, roughly how many SoBs are there in the galaxy (not counting Minor Orders, as they're an unknown quantity)? I'll admit, the lower numbers thing is something I'm not sure I like. I feel that there should be many more Sisters than that, given the Imperium's sheer size and brutality making for a plentiful source of orphans, as well as them being less complicated to create than Marines. I've been quitely hoping that new codex might retcon their numbers up a bit, but maybe the current numbers aren't so bad, if it's something we'll have to live with. What are your thoughts on their size?
Lynata wrote: such as them missing from the new Apocalypse book
I put this down to the metal models, personally. I don't think that GW would want to sell massive formations of metal models, or indeed ones that they plan to update soon. I'm theorising that their plan there is an Apoc supplement to follow a new SoB codex.
And as for being a militant arm of the Inquisition, other than FFG stuff, they have more in-universe representation for Ordo Hereticus than the Deathwatch does for Ordo Xenos, which in 6th edition 40K is to say, none other than fan-builds using Sternguard as counts-as.
They should represent Hereticus as much as the Grey Knights represent Malleus. The Grey Knights just have the bonus of being "Space Marines", which automatically makes them sell better as an army, even if Sisters had better models.
AegisGrimm wrote: And as for being a militant arm of the Inquisition, other than FFG stuff, they have more in-universe representation for Ordo Hereticus than the Deathwatch does for Ordo Xenos, which in 6th edition 40K is to say, none other than fan-builds using Sternguard as counts-as.
They should represent Hereticus as much as the Grey Knights represent Malleus. The Grey Knights just have the bonus of being "Space Marines", which automatically makes them sell better as an army, even if Sisters had better models.
Ehhhhhh...I don't really like the Sisters going back to "Codex: Witch Hunters", at least not like it was there. Maybe if they do like the did for the Grey Knights (Inquisitor HQs and only a couple of Inquisitorial options with the ability to make them troops but not making them the auto-troops choice so they don't overshadow Sisters again) I'd be okay with it, I'm just afraid they'll take it to far again.
AegisGrimm wrote: I don't really know, I only ever used Witch Hunters for Sisters-pure forces .
Same here, but the problem I had with it was the fluff was far more focused on the Inquisition than the Sisters and it gave the book a tone I didn't like.
Troike wrote:According to the codex fluff, roughly how many SoBs are there in the galaxy (not counting Minor Orders, as they're an unknown quantity)? I'll admit, the lower numbers thing is something I'm not sure I like. I feel that there should be many more Sisters than that, given the Imperium's sheer size and brutality making for a plentiful source of orphans, as well as them being less complicated to create than Marines. I've been quitely hoping that new codex might retcon their numbers up a bit, but maybe the current numbers aren't so bad, if it's something we'll have to live with. What are your thoughts on their size?
The six Major Orders Militant are about 21k Battle Sisters in 999.M41 - the 2E Codex notes that numbers are in constant flux due to casualties and availability of recruits, with an Order sometimes not being more than a few hundred Sisters, whilst at other times capping out at ~7.000 spread across the galaxy. The Minor Orders are, as you say, an unknown quantity, although I'm opposed to the idea that these are what would boost their numbers into the millions (given the choice of the word "many" to quantify them, as well as the growth of the Sisterhood over the millennia, or the low number of Minor Orders involved in the defence against the 13th Black Crusade).
Overall, I'm estimating the number of Battle Sisters to be in the tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands, but certainly not millions. And I'm fine with this low number. It makes them seem more elite, and indicates that humans of their sort are a rare breed. The ability to more or less keep up with a Space Marine shouldn't be something that comes in large numbers.
Troike wrote:I don't think that GW would want to sell massive formations of metal models
I dunno, sometimes I almost think there's a conspiracy going on. Why did they stop selling the boxes of 10 Sisters?
Right now you can get boxes of 10 metal Valhallans for £20.50, no problem. But for SoB, you pay £10.75 for 3. Excuuuse me...?
21,000? That's actually quite a lot, I guess. And there's the Minor Orders on top of that too. Plus the "elite" thing is a nice way of looking at it. That's put me at ease a bit, thanks.
And yeah, I think it's enough to justify the Major Orders' appearances at important battles. It works for the popular Space Marine Chapters, too, and those have even smaller numbers.
Meanwhile, as the Major Orders zip through Imperial space to let the hammer come down hard on selected targets, the unknown number of smaller Minor Orders take care of local matters.
Here's the original wording, by the way, just to show that I'm not merely talking out of my blessed, power-armoured posterior:
"When Sebastian Thor ascended to the position of Ecclesiarch, there were roughly 4.000 Daughters of the Emperor under his command. Upon founding the Adepta Sororitas, these warriors were split between the Convents on Ophelia VII and Terra (the Convent Sanctorum and Convent Prioris respectively). With recruits passing through the hands of the Schola Progenium once again, the Adepta Sororitas' ranks soon grew to over 10.000 fighters, and the Ecclesiarch succeeding Thor (Ecclesiarch Alexis XXII) split each of the Convents into two Orders each, founding the Orders Militant of the Ebon Chalice, Valorous Heart, Fiery Heart, and the Argent Shroud.
Two and a half thousand years later, two more Orders were created by Deacis VI (the Orders of the Bloody Rose and Sacred Rose) and the Convent buildings were extended to accomodate almost 15.000 warriors each. In recent years, the number of the Militant Orders' members has declined slightly and each Order now numbers between 3.000 and 4.000 Battle Sisters, of which perhaps 500-750 will be trained as Seraphim. These warriors are spread throughout the galaxy in various battle zones and extended tours of duty. The size of an Order waxes and wanes irregularly, depending on the quality of recruits available and battle losses. On occasion, an Order may number no more than a few hundred warriors, all fighting the enemies of the Emperor, while at other times it may reach a peak of six or seven thousand warriors, with much of the Order fighting in distant wars, but still leaving a reserve of several thousand Battle Sisters and Seraphim that can be despatched if needed." - 2E C:SoB
"As numbers within the Orders Militant waxed and waned, varying from a couple of hundred warriors to many thousands, the subsidiary convents began to take on an importance all their own. These small, scattered bases often proved ideal for reacting to requests for assistance from the Ordo Hereticus, and so over time became independent of the Orders that had founded them, establishing their own traditions, doctrines, livery and titles. Though the original six Orders are by far the most numerous and active of the Orders Militant, the new Lesser Orders Militant, or Orders Minoris, became especially useful in the frequent purity sweeps and pogroms instituted by the Witch Hunters." - 3E C:WH
(sidenote: the 5E Minidex mentions the rise of the Minor Orders to have occurred in mid M38)
As you can see, I just took the mean score between 3k and 4k (3.500) and multiplied that x6 -> 21.000.
AegisGrimm wrote: OP: Because not everyone has to have a hard-on for Space Marines. Variety of forces in a game is a good thing.
Sisters of Battle don't seem to be relevant lately , but all the wondrously over-the-top gak about the Space Marines is a recent innovation to get more fanboys for GW's flagship army. For example, Grey Knights seem so much cooler than the SoB as a force unless you are a old-timer that remembers that they used to be a shadowy organization that was represented by a single squad entry in the game until the Daemonhunters codex was written.
Sisters of Battle are cool, but in the realm of "cool" modern 40K fluff and rules, they are just suffering from being woefully out-of-date.
In 40K fluff, they represent the special-ops segment of the most powerful organization in ALL of Humanity, aside from the Adeptus Mechanicus. If you go by how fluff should work in the 40K setting, a Sisters force should be able to do practically what they want to on a world, because everyone is either fanatically supporting them, or terrified of angering the church.
Agressive eh?
Regardless I actually kinda like the sisters. They just dont seem to do much for reasons explained.
Your estimates on the Big Six seem solid, but we have so little data on the Minor Orders Militant that you can justify almost anything. Given that there are about a million worlds in the Imperium, many of them with a significant Ecclesiarchy presence that the Adeptus Ministorum would devote resources to protecting, you could easily justify (as I do in my headcanon) tens of thousands of Orders Minoris, averaging several hundred Sisters each, which would mean millions of Sisters.
That's significantly more than the number of Marines but less than one percent the size of the Imperial Guard, which is consistently said to number in the billions. So they're still pretty darn elite even at those numbers.
That also creates a lovely progression:
A thousand or so super-superhuman Grey Knights with equipment that costs more than most planets.
A million superhuman and superbly equipped Space Marines.
Millions of extraordinary humans, very well equipped, in the Battle Sisters.
Billions of ordinary humans, decently trained and equipped (for the most part), in the Imperial Guard.
Tens or hundreds of billions of ordinary or even somewhat sub-par human beings with highly variable but generally poor equipment and training in the Planetary Defense Forces.
Trillions of ordinary, ornery people who would happily shoot you in the face with a stubber or crack your head open with a rusty pipe.
One could certainly follow that approach - I don't, as I'm going by certain anecdotal (and thus certainly not entirely trustworthy) evidence pointing to smaller numbers:
#1 The absence of a detachment of Battle Sisters to protect the Cathedral of Bladen against a CSM invasion in 143.M41, as mentioned in Codex: Citystrike on page 68:
"The Ecclesiarchy was strong on Bladen, and Massena was the site of their greatest cathedral. The Mission of the Emperor Triumphant was the oldest Ecclesiarchy building in the sub-sector, built on the site of an Apothecarion said to have been founded during the Great Crusade. It was a place where the Emperor himself was believed to have trod." Yet for all its importance, there was not a single Battle Sister on-site to protect this sacred ground, the only defenders being the attendant clergy and a regiment of Cadian Shock Troops.
#2 The low number of Minor Orders involved in the defence of the Cadian sector during the 13th Black Crusade:
Force Disposition Chart as printed in Codex: Eye of Terror and the 40k 6th Edition Rulebook
Two Minor Orders doesn't sound much for an entire sector. We don't know where exactly the convent of the Wounded Heart is located, but thanks to the background of Sister Anastasia we know the Ermine Mantle is based in Hive Siana on Subiaco Diablo, of the Belis Corona subsector bordering the Cadian Gate.
#3 It is regarded as normal that the first line of defence against an assault on Ecclesiarchy proper does not consist of the Sisters of Battle but rather the clerics and the Frateris Militia:
"Imperial Shrines form main defence points against an alien invasion. If a Chaos, Ork or Eldar army descends upon a planet, the citizens would usually rally around the Frateris Clergy and defend their Shrines and temples from the alien invaders. [...] Preachers, Confessors, and Missionaries are often the first to discover hidden cults, confront alien invaders and generally get into trouble." - WD #121
Ultimately, I think there are two big misconceptions at work:
- The priests are helpless This is not so, as the Imperial Cult is a militant church and its members are expected to fight and die for their faith. Priests accompany Guardsmen into battle, leading from the front with massive chainswords and bellowing fanatical prayers, or stir the masses of their local civilian congregation into a religious frenzy to instigate a witch- or mutant-hunting pogrom and cleanse their world from taint. The clergy is not defenseless and, although missing the Sisters power armour or military training, are usually no less devoted to protect their temples, and they tend to be able to recruit large amounts of militia to aid them in this task.
- There is a sort of "progression formula" for badassness in 40k This directly ties into the "chart" you posted at the end of your post, and I believe a lot, if not most fans are falling into this trap (warning: subjective statement!). There is a single regiment of Imperial Guard Storm Troopers, and 2E Codex fluff has declared its size with 10.000 troops. That is even less than there are Battle Sisters - does that mean they are more awesome?
It's all just interpretation, though. For example, one could theorise that there were no Battle Sisters on Bladen because they were already in combat elsewhere, or were already killed in an earlier attack/counterattack. One could theorise that the Force Disposition Chart is very incomplete and that the number of Minor Orders is ten or a hundred times the number actually stated. In the end, there can be no single "right" answer, just personal preferences based on whatever sources we've read and which idea we like more. Such is the curse and blessing of how this franchise's background is intended to work.
Or, the fans expect everything to follow some sort of formula where it could just as well be a matter of tradition, politics, strategy, or sheer coincidence. There should be a trope for that, too.
The Storm Trooper regiment works by never deploying in full force but sending out individual squads and companies to attach to other regiments in important war zones. Since this kind of extra-sector response follows the standard response escalation doctrine of the Adeptus Munitorum as most recently described in the 5E Codex, this means you will only ever see them show up at particularly important battles and campaigns, such as the Third War of Armageddon. Consequently, you don't need a big number of them, assuming that there simply is not a huge number of particularly important battles and campaigns throughout the Imperium at any one moment in time.
I realise I'm playing Devil's Advocate here - but I actually enjoy finding possible explanations for various things claimed in the books, at least where it's not too outrageous,,.
In response to the OP, I have, essentially 2 answers.
1. When I first decided to play SoB it was because I wanted an army that could field 3+ Armour save troops, and I really (really, you have no idea) did not want a SM army. However, with time, they really grew on me. Hence I am still a fan because . . .
2. I feel the SoB, as a faction, best embody the things that make 40K distinct and awesome. Giant Space Cathedrals for star-ships are definitively 40K, and so too are over-decorated tanks who's main gun is a pipe organ that shoots rockets. A 40k without SoBs would not be itself.
- A Sister who drinks, gambles, and has secret affairs. Needless to say, this completely contradicts their fluff of being insanely dedicated to their duties, spending their days praying and training.
Sometimes human beings contradict their organizations fluff. A lot of the time, even - that's what makes them human beings. In my experience soldiers, and even elite soldiers who take their training and their duties very, very seriously - often still make time for drinking, gambling, and sex. So do a lot of religious leaders. It's too bad more SoB are not portrayed as something more than a block of monolithic "I am brave and virtuous, but for my one flaw of single minded fantacism and inflexible thinking."
Hollowman wrote: Sometimes human beings contradict their organizations fluff. A lot of the time, even - that's what makes them human beings. In my experience soldiers, and even elite soldiers who take their training and their duties very, very seriously - often still make time for drinking, gambling, and sex. So do a lot of religious leaders. It's too bad more SoB are not portrayed as something more than a block of monolithic "I am brave and virtuous, but for my one flaw of single minded fantacism and inflexible thinking."
But the SoB aren't present-day, ordinary soldiers, nor present-day clergymen. They are extremely indoctrinated individuals. One of their codices, I think the WH one, notes that they live lives of "extreme self-denail", forgoing any distractions in favour of focusing on devotion to the Emperor. The 5e codex reiterates this, saying that when the Sisters aren't at war, they divide their time between training and worship. A Sister, being consistently and intensely indoctrinated from a very early age, is not going to see gambling or casaul affairs as worth her time, and would instead be at prayer or training. To put it in context, this is like having an easygoing, prankster Krieg guardsman or a lazy Ultramarine.
Lynata wrote: One could certainly follow that approach - I don't, as I'm going by certain anecdotal (and thus certainly not entirely trustworthy) evidence pointing to smaller numbers:
Or we could just accept that GW is lazy and makes stupid decisions because of this. All the freaking time. GW is not staffed, for the most part, by good, consistent writers. Many of their writers seem to act like the Imperium's miltiary doesn't exist aside from the Space Marines, even. They conveniently forget about elements of the setting to try to make a "good story".
Hollowman wrote: Sometimes human beings contradict their organizations fluff. A lot of the time, even - that's what makes them human beings. In my experience soldiers, and even elite soldiers who take their training and their duties very, very seriously - often still make time for drinking, gambling, and sex. So do a lot of religious leaders. It's too bad more SoB are not portrayed as something more than a block of monolithic "I am brave and virtuous, but for my one flaw of single minded fantacism and inflexible thinking."
But the SoB aren't present-day, ordinary soldiers, nor present-day clergymen. They are extremely indoctrinated individuals. One of their codices, I think the WH one, notes that they live lives of "extreme self-denail", forgoing any distractions in favour of focusing on devotion to the Emperor. The 5e codex reiterates this, saying that when the Sisters aren't at war, they divide their time between training and worship. A Sister, being consistently and intensely indoctrinated from a very early age, is not going to see gambling or casaul affairs as worth her time, and would instead be at prayer or training. To put it in context, this is like having an easygoing, prankster Krieg guardsman or a lazy Ultramarine.
As odd as it sounds, I do agree with him. There are variances within cultures so that not everyone will be 100% the same (Except death korps, but then again they use illegal cloning..) Even ultramarines could have lazy ones, considering they have plenty of Ultramarines who have lapsed and turned toChaos. I think a little lazyness is a bit lesser then that.
There is a possibility for lapsed sisters, should they not be around the monastery and fall prey to deviance.
Not to mention you have to remember most of everyone within the culture is indoctrinated in the Emporer's Will within 40k, the only ones who aren't are the Space Marines and even then you have a few who worship him as a complete and utter god. You'll find Guardsmen who have come from religious planets, clergy who lead armies of unwashed masses who would die in his name. And yet all of these people can still fall pray to weakness and Chaos. Not everyone is as dedicated, some will be purer then others.
My headcanon is a lot of Sisters feel their faith deeply but wear it lightly: They've been immersed in it since girlhood, they don't need to rant about it all the time. They just get really, really shocked and upset when someone says something impugning the Ecclesiarchy or the Imperial Cult. It'd be like, say, how we Americans think about our personal freedoms (free speech, free elections, free markets, etc.): Only a few of us go on about them all the time, but if we think someone's trespassed against them (e.g. the NSA), we freak the feth out. The difference is that when Sisters freak out, things catch on fire.
Plus, being much more a fan of Joss Whedon than Matt Ward, I can't imagine an entire army of badass women who don't have a dark and snarky sense of humor. Hence this thread.
To put it frankly, I think people who "hate" the sisters comes from their price tag for fielding a whole army of them and less than their fluff. (Before you sister haters jump on me, not speaking for individuals but a group as a whole) The price tag for 3 sisters with bolters are 18USD, 12 for individual sisters or more. I personally like the sisters but I will continue to woe their price tag. As far as fluff is concerned most of the fans in this thread have already spoken for me.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: As odd as it sounds, I do agree with him. There are variances within cultures so that not everyone will be 100% the same
Yes, but few cultures undergo such intense indoctrination as the Sisters. And it's constantly reinforced. Every day, they're training or prayer. One could even make the point that they would likely not have the social experience not desire to engage in gambling or casual sex, as they've lived their whole lives essentially just at war, praying, and training.
I wish I could find the exact quote that I referenced. It really does a good job of showing just how deeply the Sisters are set in their ways.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Even ultramarines could have lazy ones, considering they have plenty of Ultramarines who have lapsed and turned toChaos. I think a little lazyness is a bit lesser then that.
Doubtful. They too are intensely indoctrinated, and even undergo hypnotic treatments to bolster said indoctrination. Chaos corruption usually gets in through arrogance or doubt, see. Or just outright mind tricks. Nothing to do with laziness.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: There is a possibility for lapsed sisters, should they not be around the monastery and fall prey to deviance.
Ah, but this was a Schola Progenium. The Ecclesiarchy play a big role in those, and it's the same place they train Commissar and SoBs. It'll be nearly as devout and pious a place as a Sororitas monastery, if not just as devout and pious.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: Not to mention you have to remember most of everyone within the culture is indoctrinated in the Emporer's Will within 40k
Right, but the Sisters are depicted as standing above everybody else in this regard. They are noted as being extremely adept at resisting Chaotic corruption, and get faith as a mechanic on the tabletop. It's pretty much their entire world.
Very true, but this was a Sister Superior. Those are noted as being some the most faithful and devout Sisters in the Order. Going off of my last point about Sisters being at the pinnacle of faith, Sister Superiors are another step up from the average Sister. They're even deeper into the indoctrination.
Lynata wrote: One could certainly follow that approach - I don't, as I'm going by certain anecdotal (and thus certainly not entirely trustworthy) evidence pointing to smaller numbers:
#1 The absence of a detachment of Battle Sisters to protect the Cathedral of Bladen against a CSM invasion in 143.M41, as mentioned in Codex: Citystrike on page 68:
...
#2 The low number of Minor Orders involved in the defence of the Cadian sector during the 13th Black Crusade:
Force Disposition Chart ...
#3 It is regarded as normal that the first line of defence against an assault on Ecclesiarchy proper does not consist of the Sisters of Battle but rather the clerics and the Frateris Militia:
...
I exalted your post because you clearly know your canon better than I do, but fortunately my capacity to rationalize away evidence is well-developed! (I grew up and still live in Washington DC). So:
I totally agree that the first line of defense at 99% of Ecclesiarchy sites is the Frateris and the clergy, deacons, etc themselves (though not every priest is an eviscerator-slinging badass). I think of the Minor Orders as the praetorian guard for the Cardinal or other chief cleric of a planet of high value to the Imperial Cult. Their three main missions, in order of importance, are to provide the Cardinal's personal protective detail (PPD), a planetary or even interplanetary quick reaction force (QRF) to protect holy sites, and finally to provide pilgrimage escort forces (PEF, obviously not a current US military term like the others; note also that the Sisters escort the pilgrimage as a whole, not the pilgrims, because each of them is "one among countless trillions [and] will not be missed.")
Given that a Minor Order is typically several hundred Sisters and certainly less than a thousand, they're spread thin even to cover their homebase planets. At the Baden Cathedral, the Cardinal may well have dispatched his Order Minoris elsewhere as a QRF to some other threats, only to be surprised that the enemy could hit his holiest site -- or he may have retained them all for his personal protection during the crisis.
Conversely, during the defense of the Cadian sector, the Ecclesiarchy -- being largely autonomous -- may had decided to hold back most of its limited Sororitas forces to defend its own Shrine and Cathedral Worlds rather than rely on Frateris for self-defense in such a dangerous situation, which would have kept most of the Orders Minoris "off the books" as they weren't available to the commander of the overall campaign any more than planetary defense forces were (and note PDFs aren't listed either).
As far as easy-going Sisters are concerned most people would probably never get to speak with one. IIRC only the most senior and trusted SoB will even be allowed to deal with outsiders. Partly for fear of corruption but also because only an older sister can handle the weaknesses of "normal" people without being grossly offended.
That sister in Gaunt may well be acting a bit in order to make the outsiders more comfortable. Have a drink, play a hand and give a meaning wink when her pretty assistant walks by - just like the male officers do.
AegisGrimm wrote: OP: Because not everyone has to have a hard-on for Space Marines. Variety of forces in a game is a good thing.
Sisters of Battle don't seem to be relevant lately , but all the wondrously over-the-top gak about the Space Marines is a recent innovation to get more fanboys for GW's flagship army. For example, Grey Knights seem so much cooler than the SoB as a force unless you are a old-timer that remembers that they used to be a shadowy organization that was represented by a single squad entry in the game until the Daemonhunters codex was written.
Sisters of Battle are cool, but in the realm of "cool" modern 40K fluff and rules, they are just suffering from being woefully out-of-date.
In 40K fluff, they represent the special-ops segment of the most powerful organization in ALL of Humanity, aside from the Adeptus Mechanicus. If you go by how fluff should work in the 40K setting, a Sisters force should be able to do practically what they want to on a world, because everyone is either fanatically supporting them, or terrified of angering the church.
Agressive eh?
Regardless I actually kinda like the sisters. They just dont seem to do much for reasons explained.
Maybe, but think of how the Sisters would be as an army right now if they got the Grey Knights' treatment instead of being thrown on the back burner? GW invented an entire Codex for yet another Space Marine army that up to that point had five Terminator models that could be fielded as one special squad, but ignored an army that they already had in production, with codex that had already been written, so could be easily updated.
Plus everyone compares the Sisters to Space Marines and says they aren't good, but not everyone wants to play Space marines all the time. Even I have two big armies of them, but like to take a break from seeing them all over every table. My small army of Sisters are a good way to get the "Elite" human fix, but not as Space Marines.
If anything, an army of Sisters of Battle justifies the evocative "Gothic Imperial" artwork and overall model "image" more than any other Imperial army on the tabletop, save for special niche cases like Black Templars, and others. All the stuff that looks over the top in other instances would fit with them just perfectly.
Troike wrote:Yes, but few cultures undergo such intense indoctrination as the Sisters. And it's constantly reinforced.
This is important. The Sisters aren't a "slice" through the average populace where you'll have someone be like that and someone like so - they've been indoctrinated from childbirth and "don't know any better". Their extreme isolation and strict regime are an extreme form of pressure in the development of their personalities. Sisters aren't clones or robots - they are still individuals - but the "range" of personality styles will be much, much, much narrower than in average contemporary western culture. It'd be more accurate to compare them to radical jihadists than someone from next door, and even that may be an understatement. I often say that the Sisters are "an army of Jeanne d'Arc's", with the fleur-de-lis merely being the most visible connection between the two. And Jeanne was said to be quite the little zealot. Another example might be the Mino regiment of the Dahomey Empire, whose all-female warriors were said to be quite fanatical as well. Here's a humorously written article with a small 40k reference regarding their practice of skull-taking.
The isolation bit is another area where that novel failed to adhere to GW's original fluff, by the way. According to Codex fluff, progena are kept strictly separated by gender, whereas Mitchell's book had them mix and even play sports together. When the author has a less extreme environment for their upbringing in mind, it should probably come to little surprise that the result of such training is less extreme as well.
Troike wrote:I wish I could find the exact quote that I referenced. It really does a good job of showing just how deeply the Sisters are set in their ways.
This?
"The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent order where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. Its members are fanatical in their commitment. The slightest deprivation from approved stricture leads to the most severe chastisement." - Codex Imperialis
Or where you referring to that "barbed pen"-story in the 3E rulebook?
Spoiler:
Another great example might be the excerpts of rules in the WD Liber Sororitas article. The Sisters sure have a lot of regulations!
Troike wrote:Very true, but this was a Sister Superior. Those are noted as being some the most faithful and devout Sisters in the Order.
Even worse: it was a Sister Superior in charge of training the next generation of Sororitas.
Even apart from the obvious contradiction that novices don't have their novitiate in the Schola Progenium, the idea that a non-fanatical superior is responsible for turning kids into Battle Sisters just doesn't work for me. One should assume that the ones responsible for training new Sisters, in a stage where their minds are most malleable and vulnerable, are the most pure and dedicated individuals that the Order has to offer. Especially given the historical background.
"The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan. During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders, and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain." - 2E C:SoB
SisterSydney wrote:fortunately my capacity to rationalize away evidence is well-developed!
Hah, no problem! As I said, I'm tackling this beast from the other side by trying to rationalise fitting said evidence into the greater picture. And I've already provided some theoretical counter-arguments for my own "proof" at the end of that post, so it's not like I can't see the issue from the other side. Although I maintain that the material would point more towards my interpretation!
Anyways, we are of one mind regarding the role of (most of) the Minor Orders, just not how many there are or how common they'd be. A detail that will probably never be resolved?
"The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent order where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. Its members are fanatical in their commitment. The slightest deprivation from approved stricture leads to the most severe chastisement." - Codex Imperialis
Or where you referring to that "barbed pen"-story in the 3E rulebook?
Spoiler:
Another great example might be the excerpts of rules in the WD Liber Sororitas article. The Sisters sure have a lot of regulations!
Nah, wasn't any of those. Though they do nicely support the point about them being deeply indoctrinated. The one I read ended with saying that they live lives of "extreme denial".
Though that second one wasinteresting to read. Hair shirts, eh? Guess I know now what the Sisters wear when they're not in their power armour.
Lynata wrote: just not how many there are or how common they'd be. A detail that will probably never be resolved?
Highly doubtful. The purpose of Minor Orders is to be a "way in" for the fans to make their own SoBs, after all. They're more open, and thus easier for fans to make use of, if they're a more unkown quantity. That's my take on it.
I do like Minor Orders, though. It'd be nice to get a little more information on them in the future, perhaps.
ZebioLizard2 wrote: As odd as it sounds, I do agree with him. There are variances within cultures so that not everyone will be 100% the same
Yes, but few cultures undergo such intense indoctrination as the Sisters. And it's constantly reinforced. Every day, they're training or prayer. One could even make the point that they would likely not have the social experience not desire to engage in gambling or casual sex, as they've lived their whole lives essentially just at war, praying, and training.
I wish I could find the exact quote that I referenced. It really does a good job of showing just how deeply the Sisters are set in their ways.
Space marines are not really human anymore, but the Sisters are. That's a big difference. The Sisters still have access to the sorts of urges humans have. We have plenty of historical experience with fantatical religious and militaristic cultures, and all of them have members who engage in sexual and illicit behavior outside of their cultures norms - the higher up individuals especially. Plus, warfare is not at all an ideal situation for keeping a group inexperienced and sheltered.
I am not saying we should expect Sisters to be running about having flings and drinking, but it would be just as surprising if none ever thought of it. Especially superiors, who are a bit more worldly, a bit more experienced, and have more autonomy and a better idea what they can get away with. It's not always the most moral or pure who rise up to be leaders, or who make the most effective leaders.
Hollowman wrote:Space marines are not really human anymore, but the Sisters are. That's a big difference. The Sisters still have access to the sorts of urges humans have.
Really? Space Marines had a perfectly normal childhood as per the local culture of the world they were recruited from, such as a barbarian Fenrisian tribe or a Necromunda hive gang. Recruits are taken in at about 10 years of age, at which point they will already have had a bit of experience considering everyday life. Sisters, on the other hand, lack these experiences and memories - they are raised from infancy within the Schola Progenium and taught to shield themselves from such "corrupting" influence, and are under a constant control by their fellow Sisters and superiors, trained to report impure thought and expunge it with penance.
Certainly, Astartes live a monastic life as well, but why exactly should they necessarily be less human in this way just because they're Space Marines? Comparing the Space Wolves and the Sisters of Battle, I sure as warp see who lives a more humble and devoted life. Other Chapters of Astartes, on the other hand, come across as much closer to the Adepta Sororitas as far as their mindset is concerned (anyone remember the "daily schedule" table?), so it must be a matter of lifestyle. Unless of course we are to assume that there is some sort of "duty gene" or a special Marine-exclusive brainwashing method that just doesn't work for each and every Chapter.
And you'd be surprised what growing up in a strict regime and indoctrination can do to people's behaviour. Have you read that story about the North Korean kid that grew up in one of the labour camps and ratted out his parents because at the time he truly believed it was the right thing to do and that his parents were wrong for trying to escape?
I think it's just really, really hard for people to understand how such an alien culture can operate, and our contemporary "western way of thinking" is all too often presented as the only way for the human mind to tick.
Hollowman wrote:We have plenty of historical experience with fantatical religious and militaristic cultures, and all of them have members who engage in sexual and illicit behavior outside of their cultures norms
That sounds like a pretty large brush to paint with. Given how little we actually know about various reclusive societies - specifically due to their reclusiveness - I would certainly not apply such an all-encompassing term like "all of them".
But let's try to tackle this from the other side, shall we? Do you think that every single religious fanatic has to engage in "sexual and illicit behavior", no exceptions?
If not, why do you think it is impossible that every member of a cult or organisation was indoctrinated with similar success than the ones who don't?
Hollowman wrote: Space marines are not really human anymore, but the Sisters are. That's a big difference.
Is it? The Marines also undergo some heavy indoctrination, but who has the better track record at resisting Chaos? If anything, it speaks volumes about just how much the Sisters get indoctrinated when they, on average, have better willpower than somebody who has been genetically enhanced and had their indoctrination hypnotically reinforced.
Hollowman wrote: The Sisters still have access to the sorts of urges humans have.
Debatable. They've undergone some extreme indoctrination on a daily basis since early childhood. On top of that, they've likely been told that these urges are evil distractions, and must be ignored. Read the spoilered codex fluff that Lynata posted, that's daily life for a Sister. Constant supression and devotion, contant reaffirmations of their beliefs. There's not really a lot of room for those little urges to come in.
Hollowman wrote: We have plenty of historical experience with fantatical religious and militaristic cultures, and all of them have members who engage in sexual and illicit behavior outside of their cultures norms - the higher up individuals especially.
Right, but you have to remember, this ain't our history. It's a whole other world. And the Sisters live lives of near-complete isolation, with it usually being just the Canoness (maybe a Palatine if she wasn't around) who interacts with outsiders. There's not really any room for them to indulge or even vaguely expereince behaviours like that, such are their lives.
Hollowman wrote: Plus, warfare is not at all an ideal situation for keeping a group inexperienced and sheltered.
Why not? They go out there, zealously purge the enemy while singing their hyms, and go back to the monastery. They're not going to be like the Guardsmen in, say, the Cain novels, who can go on leave after the fighting finishes to go get drunk.
As we are all aware, the Order of the Argent Shroud are renowned for their mandate of regulating the activities of not just members of the Ecclesiarchy, but of other Imperial organisations they come into contact with as well. Whilst I appreciate their dedication and success at rooting out traitors and dissenters within our midst, the effect upon the general morale of any fighting arm during their investigations almost always depreciates as their purges continue.
Other Imperials, bar Marines, would likely be some measure of awed or intimidated by the Sisters. If not outright terrified if the Sisters decide to go purging. They certainly wouldn't hang out casually.
Hollowman wrote: Especially superiors, who are a bit more worldly, a bit more experienced, and have more autonomy and a better idea what they can get away with.
Where would they get experience like that from? When they're not fighting their holy wars, they're in the monastery, training and praying. There's not really any time to go out and discover the joys of alcohol, or anything like that. Again, their only experience of stuff like that is likely just them being told that it a foolish ditraction at best.
Hollowman wrote: It's not always the most moral or pure who rise up to be leaders
Except that that is likely a main part of how the Sisters promote. Who can adhere to their faith the best? Who is the most zealous? Who would we want being directly responsible for the faith and well-being of one of our squads? Superiors are directly responsible for their own squads, after all, so they'll be looking for those traits in potential Superiors. And, given what a strict, intense enviroment a Sororitas Monastery is, all potential Superiors are under intense scrutiny, essentially. It's doubtful traits of wekaness would go unmissed, much less occur in the first place due to the constant devotional practices.
Lynata wrote: Really? Space Marines had a perfectly normal childhood as per the local culture of the world they were recruited from, such as a barbarian Fenrisian tribe or a Necromunda hive gang. Recruits are taken in at about 10 years of age, at which point they will already have had a bit of experience considering everyday life. Sisters, on the other hand, lack these experiences and memories - they are raised from infancy within the Schola Progenium and taught to shield themselves from such "corrupting" influence, and are under a constant control by their fellow Sisters and superiors, trained to report impure thought and expunge it with penance.
Well yes - Space marines are not human. The fluff ascribes them a limited suite of emotional states, entirely different physiology, etc.
Lynata wrote: Certainly, Astartes live a monastic life as well, but why exactly should they necessarily be less human in this way just because they're Space Marines? Comparing the Space Wolves and the Sisters of Battle, I sure as warp see who lives a more humble and devoted life. Other Chapters of Astartes, on the other hand, come across as much closer to the Adepta Sororitas as far as their mindset is concerned (anyone remember the "daily schedule" table?), so it must be a matter of lifestyle. Unless of course we are to assume that there is some sort of "duty gene" or a special Marine-exclusive brainwashing method that just doesn't work for each and every Chapter.
I'd be more inclined to say Space marines have a set of genes that make them far more behaviorally limited than proper humans. Something not far off from sociopathy.
Lynata wrote: And you'd be surprised what growing up in a strict regime and indoctrination can do to people's behaviour. Have you read that story about the North Korean kid that grew up in one of the labour camps and ratted out his parents because at the time he truly believed it was the right thing to do and that his parents were wrong for trying to escape?
I think it's just really, really hard for people to understand how such an alien culture can operate, and our contemporary "western way of thinking" is all too often presented as the only way for the human mind to tick.
I'm well aware of how non western cultures operate, as well as the universals that span across them. That North Korean kid is hardly the strangest example of human variation.
Hollowman wrote:We have plenty of historical experience with fantatical religious and militaristic cultures, and all of them have members who engage in sexual and illicit behavior outside of their cultures norms
That sounds like a pretty large brush to paint with. Given how little we actually know about various reclusive societies - specifically due to their reclusiveness - I would certainly not apply such an all-encompassing term like "all of them".
But let's try to tackle this from the other side, shall we? Do you think that every single religious fanatic has to engage in "sexual and illicit behavior", no exceptions?
If not, why do you think it is impossible that every member of a cult or organisation was indoctrinated with similar success than the ones who don't?
It is so universally widespread that it would be almost obstinate not too, but I am happy to say it is provisionally true that all encountered cultures display such behavior.
As to your question, I would say it is impossible for every member of a cult or organisation to be indoctrinated with the same level of success because it is impossible to ensure each individual has the same genetic, social and experiential history as every other member. You cannot even ensure crickets and mice behave the same way under the same stimuli, much less something as complex as a young woman in a warzone. I would also note that if it were possible to find some magic bullet which makes all humans behave the same way under an indoctrination regime, we would see a lot more cultural groups built around them. If the Churches and governments and corporations could so easily ensure predictable and loyal behavior, you can bet they would have mastered the art long ago. Instead we have varying proportions of individuals who are susceptible to varying levels of social and behavioral indoctrination, across the board.
I am enjoying the implication that humans must give in to our urges or else we, I don't know, explode.
Also, why has nobody made comparisons to, you know, nuns? That's essentially what Sororitas are - except worse. Nuns don't take their faith so seriously that even the slightest deviation can be cause for death.
To succumb to physical desires and act in a manner against the faith is to have one's faith lacking. They police themselves - to allow such desires to enter one's mind is heretical, is enough for the Sister in question to run to her superior and plead for punishment that she may be resolved of her impurity. To fully act upon these desires? Oh dear.
In the story that Tankred is from, the Black Templar that would later become Tankred (I believe) reports to his Chaplain about a sort of crisis of faith. What was it about? The fact that he simply mentioned taking pride in his victories. The Chaplain only refrains from killing him on the spot because he explains it to be something about how great the Emperor is, and how their victories serve to demonstrate the Emperor's strength, or something. Extraordinarily minor by our standards, but by the standards of the Chaplain, heresy worth killing over.
That's what it's like with the Sisters. Quite possibly worse. Furthermore, if it's impossible for them to be 'indoctrinated with the same level of success', then why has only one Sister ever fallen to Chaos (a Sister who is essentially a fan-character, coming from the rather silly card game which bizarre things like that poisonous Trygon that looks awful)?
Also, I have to agree that Sci Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale. The Imperium is really, really huge. I think it rather silly for the Sororitas to be so few that their total doesn't even come to half the size of the active armed forces of the United Kingdom!
Holy wars are still wars. Sisters work alongside the Imperial Guard and civilian populations, and even the most elite warriors generally take weeks if not longer to defeat their enemies - Warhammer fluff is full of battles that rage on for years or longer. No matter how isolated by reputation, cultural differences and location, the Sisters are going to interact with allies and civilians pretty routinely. They are going to see things which humans find intriguing, and some portion of them are going to be tempted. Some portion of them are going to be smart enough and curious enough to dabble.
Hollowman wrote: Especially superiors, who are a bit more worldly, a bit more experienced, and have more autonomy and a better idea what they can get away with.
Where would they get experience like that from? When they're not fighting their holy wars, they're in the monastery, training and praying. There's not really any time to go out and discover the joys of alcohol, or anything like that. Again, their only experience of stuff like that is likely just them being told that it a foolish ditraction at best.
Actually there is precedent for religious orders to have connections to alcohol so I could see Sisters casually enjoying beer or it's 40k equivalent and even brewing it, but not getting rip-roaring drunk.
Frozen Ocean wrote: I am enjoying the implication that humans must give in to our urges or else we, I don't know, explode.
Also, why has nobody made comparisons to, you know, nuns? That's essentially what Sororitas are - except worse. Nuns don't take their faith so seriously that even the slightest deviation can be cause for death.
To succumb to physical desires and act in a manner against the faith is to have one's faith lacking. They police themselves - to allow such desires to enter one's mind is heretical, is enough for the Sister in question to run to her superior and plead for punishment that she may be resolved of her impurity. To fully act upon these desires? Oh dear.
!
I didn't say we have to give in to urges, I said some portion almost certainly would. Nuns were one of the primary things i was thinking of when I initially suggested some Sisters would engage in proscribed activities, just as many nuns do. I'm also not sure how clear it is that what the catholic church believes is sinful is in line with what the Imperium considers unpure. Sex and drinking are certainly distractions, but so is watching television - I'm not sure what the cultu of the emperor has to say about sex and drugs in general.
Hollowman wrote: No matter how isolated by reputation, cultural differences and location, the Sisters are going to interact with allies and civilians pretty routinely.
Why? They'd likely have their own facilities, and wouldn't be sharing with their allies. And the isolation we see in their monastery life will likely still be in effect to some degree, with Sisters keeping to their own. If the link I posted above is any indication, purging is one of the most likely interction they'd have with any allies. As for civilians, they would have no reason to interact with those either, bar checking for signs of corruption and purging if any are found.
Hollowman wrote: They are going to see things which humans find intriguing and some portion of them are going to be tempted. Some portion of them are going to be smart enough and curious enough to dabble.
This is a very important detail, these aren't normal humans! They're not going to be intrigued nor tempted. There certainly won't be any dabbling. They will be disgusted at the lack of devotion at best, will start purging at worst. If they can resist the temptation put forth by the gods of Chaos, they're certianly going to be able to resist mundane temptations.
Eh, but this ain't our history. Something happening in our world doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be an influence in 40K. And I don't really think that the Sisters would approve of that, given the intensity of their daily lives. Given that their damn pens are desinged to be uncomfortable to use, they'd more likely see alcohol as a distraction from their devotion.
Certainly, I doubt they'd be brewing alcohol to give to the local citizens, which would distract both parties from the more important task of worshiping Big E.
Eh, but this ain't our history. Something happening in our world doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be an influence in 40K. And I don't really think that the Sisters would approve of that, given the intensity of their daily lives. Given that their damn pens are desinged to be uncomfortable to use, they'd more likely see alcohol as a distraction from their devotion.
Certainly, I doubt they'd be brewing alcohol to give to the local citizens, which would distract both parties from the more important task of worshiping Big E.
I know it's not our history, but the fact was more that it's not too strange to think of it when you know it's actually happened.
Even if the Sisters didn't themselves the Ecclesiarchy still could.
Either way, a beer with a meal wouldn't be bad for them. A keg with a meal on the other hand would be a problem.
ClockworkZion wrote: I know it's not our history, but the fact was more that it's not too strange to think of it when you know it's actually happened.
Even if the Sisters didn't themselves the Ecclesiarchy still could.
Either way, a beer with a meal wouldn't be bad for them. A keg with a meal on the other hand would be a problem.
Sure, but my issue is that our history probably isn't really a valid comparison to the Sisters. Certainly, those relgious organisations that went around distributing alcohol to regular citizens aren't. But yes, the Ecclesiarchy could well enage in a practice like that. Or at least parts of it. But the Sisters are actually fairly seperated from the Ecclesiarchy in daily life, so it wouldn't really effect them.
As for the Sisters drinking, I would have expected them to drink wine of some sort if they did indeed drink at all.
Hollowman wrote:I'd be more inclined to say Space marines have a set of genes that make them far more behaviorally limited than proper humans. Something not far off from sociopathy.
Okay, but that's just your personal guess. As far as GW is concerned, this limited behaviour is a result of their monastic lifestyle. The Sisters are just better at that, so they are more limited, and so they are less likely to suffer corruption. It all adds up.
Hollowman wrote:As to your question, I would say it is impossible for every member of a cult or organisation to be indoctrinated with the same level of success because it is impossible to ensure each individual has the same genetic, social and experiential history as every other member. You cannot even ensure crickets and mice behave the same way under the same stimuli, much less something as complex as a young woman in a warzone.
Do Space Marines have the same genetic, social and experiential history as every other member of their Chapter? No. Yet you are perfectly happy to ascribe a more limited behaviour to them (even in the face of obvious exceptions such as the aforementioned Space Wolves) but not to the Sisters, whose "experiential history" is much more uniform than that of the Marines, given that unlike Astartes recruits they all grew up in a similarly controlled environment?
Hollowman wrote:I would also note that if it were possible to find some magic bullet which makes all humans behave the same way under an indoctrination regime, we would see a lot more cultural groups built around them. If the Churches and governments and corporations could so easily ensure predictable and loyal behavior, you can bet they would have mastered the art long ago. Instead we have varying proportions of individuals who are susceptible to varying levels of social and behavioral indoctrination, across the board.
That is because churches and governments are perfectly happy with varying levels of social and behavioural indoctrination, as the leaders tend to come from those segments of the populace that are less in its grip and who do not see a need to change the status quo. It takes a sheperd to herd the sheep, after all. You are also dismissing the continuous rivalry between both church and government, and between different governments, which is not only a significant difference to the setting in 40k, but also has a profound effect on how much any one of these bodies would even be able to expand its indoctrination to all levels, even if it wanted to. Certainly, it has been attempted often enough in history, but always external forces have curbed the success of such measures.
Or, to add to what Troike wrote here ->
Troike wrote:Sure, but my issue is that our history probably isn't really a valid comparison to the Sisters. Certainly, those relgious organisations that went around distributing alcohol to regular citizens aren't. But yes, the Ecclesiarchy could well enage in a practice like that. Or at least parts of it. But the Sisters are actually fairly seperated from the Ecclesiarchy in daily life, so it wouldn't really effect them.
The Sisters are a monastic order, and to the Ecclesiarchy just like, say, the Dominicans or the Knights Templar are to the Catholic Church. As history has shown, the various monasteries and orders need not necessarily practice the same lifestyle as the clergy of the church. It would be an oddity, even. Part of the reason those monasteries were founded was to GET AWAY from everyday life and temptation, as opposed to the church, whose mission includes spreading the faith and tending to everyone's spiritual wellbeing (which in turn obviously requires contact with the people).
ClockworkZion wrote:Actually there is precedent for religious orders to have connections to alcohol so I could see Sisters casually enjoying beer or it's 40k equivalent and even brewing it, but not getting rip-roaring drunk.
Indeed, but the Sisters believe in self-deprivation and suffering as part of their faith. "Casually enjoying beer" is fun, thus I would expect it to be banned. Just like it is the case for various other religious orders in real life.
Frozen Ocean wrote:Furthermore, if it's impossible for them to be 'indoctrinated with the same level of success', then why has only one Sister ever fallen to Chaos (a Sister who is essentially a fan-character, coming from the rather silly card game which bizarre things like that poisonous Trygon that looks awful)?
To be fair, there's a number of non-GW fluff where Sisters have been corrupted. On the other hand, if one were to look at GW's own stuff exclusively, there is not a single Sister noted to have fallen to Chaos. Not one. Instead, we have tons of fluff telling us about how "their faith is a bulwark against corruption", and the 2E material even described them as "incorruptible".
(I maintain that Miriael is a cool character, though! even if I agree about the "Trygon" and wish it'd rather just be a lewdly long tongue but without the teeth - the teeth just look silly ...)
Frozen Ocean wrote:Also, I have to agree that Sci Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale. The Imperium is really, really huge. I think it rather silly for the Sororitas to be so few that their total doesn't even come to half the size of the active armed forces of the United Kingdom!
Well, why exactly do there need to be more Sisters? That's like complaining there's too few SEALs compared to the SAS because the US are so much larger than the UK. It is important to keep in mind that the Sisters of Battle are an adjunct to the Imperial military, just like the Space Marines are. The only ones you really need to have a lot of is the Imperial Guard, as that's the ones who do most of the fighting.
ClockworkZion wrote: I know it's not our history, but the fact was more that it's not too strange to think of it when you know it's actually happened.
Even if the Sisters didn't themselves the Ecclesiarchy still could.
Either way, a beer with a meal wouldn't be bad for them. A keg with a meal on the other hand would be a problem.
Sure, but my issue is that our history probably isn't really a valid comparison to the Sisters. Certainly, those relgious organisations that went around distributing alcohol to regular citizens aren't. But yes, the Ecclesiarchy could well enage in a practice like that. Or at least parts of it. But the Sisters are actually fairly seperated from the Ecclesiarchy in daily life, so it wouldn't really effect them.
As for the Sisters drinking, I would have expected them to drink wine of some sort if they did indeed drink at all.
The monks don't really just run around handing out free drinks, but instead sell the beer to support their order. Plus they drink what the brewed too.
Ah. Well the Sisters don't need to worry about supporting their Orders. They've got the financial backing of the Ecclesiarchy, after all.
Just look at how decorated their vehicles are. If they can afford all of that iconography on their tanks, I don't think that they'd need to brew beers to support themselves.
To address the thing about the number of Sisters, the issue is we're dealing with a galactic empire so massive that hundreds of worlds are lost and found every day.
And while the Space Marines have a number of reasons/excuses to get around such issues (surgical strikes, worth more than their number, deploying with other military forces, ect), Sisters aren't noted for such things.
Do I think we need the Millions of Trillions of members like the Guard? No. But a few million Adeptus Sororitas (like 100 million or less) is not an unreasonable number. Especially with the sheer number of what they do and whom they support. Do they need to be everywhere? Of course not, but to not have enough of them to handle the full load of their duties (which is what we basically have now) is an issue in my mind.
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Troike wrote: Ah. Well the Sisters don't need to worry about supporting their Orders. They've got the financial backing of the Ecclesiarchy, after all.
Just look at how decorated their vehicles are. If they can afford all of that iconography on their tanks, I don't think that they'd need to brew beers to support themselves.
True, but we're also dealing with a galaxy spanning religion that while all carrying the same name, varies, sometimes drastically, from planet to planet and system to system. Given the sheer number of worlds out there you can pretty much bet there is an order of the Ecclesiarchy who makes booze somewhere.
ClockworkZion wrote:To address the thing about the number of Sisters, the issue is we're dealing with a galactic empire so massive that hundreds of worlds are lost and found every day.
And while the Space Marines have a number of reasons/excuses to get around such issues (surgical strikes, worth more than their number, deploying with other military forces, ect), Sisters aren't noted for such things.
Exactly. It's like having fewer SEALs than SAS personnel... if the USA were several billion times larger than it currently is. Space Marines face this issue - lack of numbers - but have measures, as you said, to counteract it. Even minorities should, by all means, outnumber the supposed strength of the Sororitas - including Planetary Governors, Inquisitors, Death Cult Assassins, etc, in a setting that is as extremely large as the Imperium of Man. I would be looking more at 20k+ as being the numbers of each individual convent of Sororitas, not their numbers as a whole! I'm not talking Imperial Guard numbers, here. Even a few million would do. Remember, just because they sound similar doesn't mean that a million and a billion are close in number.
I'm sure there is a lot of really silly fluff from 2E that can't be taken seriously in the current setting.
Hollowman wrote:
Frozen Ocean wrote: I am enjoying the implication that humans must give in to our urges or else we, I don't know, explode.
Also, why has nobody made comparisons to, you know, nuns? That's essentially what Sororitas are - except worse. Nuns don't take their faith so seriously that even the slightest deviation can be cause for death.
To succumb to physical desires and act in a manner against the faith is to have one's faith lacking. They police themselves - to allow such desires to enter one's mind is heretical, is enough for the Sister in question to run to her superior and plead for punishment that she may be resolved of her impurity. To fully act upon these desires? Oh dear.
!
I didn't say we have to give in to urges, I said some portion almost certainly would. Nuns were one of the primary things i was thinking of when I initially suggested some Sisters would engage in proscribed activities, just as many nuns do. I'm also not sure how clear it is that what the catholic church believes is sinful is in line with what the Imperium considers unpure. Sex and drinking are certainly distractions, but so is watching television - I'm not sure what the cultu of the emperor has to say about sex and drugs in general.
You miss the point. Nuns, certainly, are capable of deviating from the values of their beliefs. Nuns, however, are nowhere near as extremist as the Sororitas. If pride in victory is punishable by death, somehow I don't think that boozing it up would be permitted. Also, I doubt that the Sororitas watch television.
Lynata wrote:
Hollowman wrote:I'd be more inclined to say Space marines have a set of genes that make them far more behaviorally limited than proper humans. Something not far off from sociopathy.
Okay, but that's just your personal guess. As far as GW is concerned, this limited behaviour is a result of their monastic lifestyle. The Sisters are just better at that, so they are more limited, and so they are less likely to suffer corruption. It all adds up.
Exactly. Space Marines are certainly capable of having material urges - otherwise, they would be incapable of turning to Chaos as readily as they do. Space Marines hold back temptation through discipline and force of will and yet, they fall to Chaos in droves. The Sisters, on the other hand, do not. Regardless of whether or not Astartes are 'behaviorally limited' (which I don't believe they are), the Sisters surpass them immeasurably in terms of resisting temptation.
As Lynata said, you are ascribing this "magic bullet" of indoctrination to Space Marines (that being the hypothetical alterations that render them incapable of temptation). However, it's the Marines who get tempted, not the Sisters! This is a rather big paradox. How can the "magic bullet"-equipped (supposedly) Space Marines be inferior to the "magic bullet"-less Sororitas, of which "some portion of them are going to be smart enough and curious enough to dabble", when it is the Marines who fall to Chaos regularly?
The only alternative is that the "magic bullet" is what makes them turn to Chaos, but we know that this is not true - regular humans fall to Chaos easily. Astartes fall to Chaos easily. The only alternative, then, is that the discipline and faith of a Sororitas keeps them from falling to Chaos.
The actual "magic bullet" at work in the setting is the literal brainwashing of Grey Knights, to turn them into the stalwart bastions of faith that they are. The faith, mental fortitute, and self-discipline of a Sororitas is on par with this brainwashing without any "magic bullets" involved.
ClockworkZion wrote:And while the Space Marines have a number of reasons/excuses to get around such issues (surgical strikes, worth more than their number, deploying with other military forces, ect), Sisters aren't noted for such things.
I wouldn't agree with that...
If you think Marines are worth more than their number, then you can say the same about Sisters.
If you think Marines are deploying with other military forces, then you can say the same about Sisters.
According to GW's material, the first line of defence on Ecclesiarchal property is the Frateris Militia. These also form the core of any War of Faith, where the Sisters of Battle merely function as the symbolic spearhead, providing a solid core of elite warriors the militia can rally around (an example might be found in Canoness Carmina's report on the Gaius Point incident). Likewise, local pogroms and witch hunts tend to be instigated by the clergy whipping the planetary populace into a religious frenzy.
"Frateris Militia can be formed in a variety of ways and for varying lengths of time. A Preacher discovering a heretical cult may rouse his followers to attack the enemy and cast them out. Confessors are often followed by large entourages of fanatical Frateris, crazed zealots and pious mendicants who will carry out his orders without question and would rather die than fail their leader. Missionaries often have a following of converts accompanying them, helping to spread the word of the Imperial Cult. In desperate situation, the Deacons, Deans and other functionaries may even be armed from the secret vaults in the Imperial Shrines. When the temples are threatened, these faithful may be the only defence against an enemy cult or alien invader.
When a War of Faith is declared, thousands of Frateris Militia will assemble with the ranks of the Battle Sisters and Imperial Guard, eager to prove their dedication to the Emperor." - 2E C:SoB
And before someone suggests that this Frateris Militia could necessitate a larger force of Battle Sisters should their religious leader go rogue, it's really not as if the Sisters would be incapable of doing those Marine-style surgical strikes as well:
"The types of operations embarked upon by the joint forces of the Ordo Hereticus and the Adepta Sororitas are often sensitive, and have at times amounted to little more than barely sanctioned assassination. The most common mission is a rapid, surgical strike against a religious group. Often the target of the attack will be a member of the Ministorum, perhaps a Cardinal or Missionary whose teachings have strayed too far from the accepted orthodoxy, forcing his excommunication. Such an individual may have a sizable following, and the Ordo will therefore expect stiff resistance to their attack. In such a situation it is imperative that the attack is carried out in secrecy. No witnesses are left alive to spread doubt, and no martyrs to the cause are allowed to inspire further rebellion." - CJ #49
So what exactly is it that one would need huge numbers of Sisters for? Almost everything the Sisters do, the Frateris Militia does as well, just in an obviously less reliable manner, and with much larger numbers. And the Frateris Militia, unlike the Sisters, has been said to exist everywhere, even where it exists only as an ad-hoc militia that is raised as the situation demands, rather than (as is sometimes the case) a permanent, unofficial army of the local clergy. The only things that the Frateris Militia do not do are official purity sweeps and hunting down rogue Marine Chapters. For the former, the Sisters team up with the Adeptus Arbites, and the Ordo Hereticus can requisition further forces such as Inquisitorial Storm Troopers squads or even regiments of the Imperial Guard to assist, if need be. And the latter really does not occur that often that you'd constantly need entire Orders on standby.
And that is before we consider that the Adepta Sororitas is easily capable of summoning further assistance if need be - ranging from honour-bindings with the Adeptus Astartes (as we know from the 6E Space Marines Codex, specifically the recent additions to the Black Templars fluff) to the web of connections spun by the Orders Famulous:
"A Sister of one of the Orders Famulous can use her connections with the Imperial nobility to command other Imperial servants to provide her with troops. These are usually Imperial Guardsmen or Planetary Defence Force Personnel. [...]" - Chapter Approved 2002 : Sisters of Battle
"With members in every aspect of society, the Sisterhood can maintain a close eye on the affairs of the Imperium. The Orders Famulous report on the activities of the Noble Houses, the Orders Dialogus can inform their seniors of the deals and agreements binding the Imperium together and the Orders Hospitaller witness many things unseen outside their wards. All of this makes the Adepta Sororitas a useful political as well as social tool, and with the armed might of the Orders Militant, the Sisterhood has the protection and power it needs to operate successfully." - 2E C:SoB
tl;dr: Two things: The Minor Orders take care of local matters wherever necessary or appropriate, the Major Orders (with their larger size and mobility) are the hard-hitting troops, whose units are despatched to threatened areas of special importance to the Ecclesiarchy, or to serve as vanguard for a crusade. For clarification, what exactly is it that people believe there are supposedly too few Sisters for? Why does a number around 100k seem "too few" for what they are supposed to do and meant to represent? Especially considering the Inquisition's scepticism regarding the Ecclesiarchy amassing too much military might, and the limited space within the two primary Convents on Terra and Ophelia VII, and that even the Ecclesiarchy's obscene wealth has its limits when the Sisters of Battle are "armed with the best wargear the Imperium has to offer" (CA 2002).
Here's a thought - maybe the Imperium refrains from raising more Sisters of Battle for the same reason it refrains from raising more Chapters of Space Marines. Both the Ecclesiarchy as well as the Adeptus Astartes have in the past abused their military might and influence to plunge the Imperium into civil war. Perhaps the High Lords think that the current numbers are perfectly alright, because this has been sufficient for thousands of years and because those resources could just as well be spent elsewhere? Certainly the Ecclesiarch may argue for additional troops, but even though he is a High Lord himself there are limits to what one could dare on the political battlefield that is the Inquisition-supervised Senatorum Imperialis. I mean, it took the Ecclesiarchy 2.500 years to expand the number of Sisters in the Major Orders from 20.000 to 30.000 ...
Because, even by treating them exactly as Space Marines in terms of capability, they are still vastly outnumbered by Astartes - the biggest weakness of whom being their low numbers. Which is fine, because Astartes, as many have said before, not meant as a true army, not meant to wage war in the truest fashion.
It isn't vast numbers. Even a few million would be quite small, really. The galaxy is really, really, really big. Once again, they would be quite massively outnumbered by Death Cult Assassins, Planetary Governors, and quite probably Inquisitors. A million people really isn't that large of a number, not even in the context of modern-day Earth! And then the Imperium of Man is supposed to include approximately a million worlds? The setting is just too large for them to be that few.
Also, not to devalue the Sororitas, but Astartes are individually superior. All those genetic modifications don't count for nothing, after all.
me wrote:I'm sure there is a lot of really silly fluff from 2E that can't be taken seriously in the current setting.
Lynata wrote:For clarification, what exactly is it that people believe there are supposedly too few Sisters for? Why does a number around 100k seem "too few" for what they are supposed to do and meant to represent? Especially considering the Inquisition's scepticism regarding the Ecclesiarchy amassing too much military might, and the limited space within the two primary Convents on Terra and Ophelia VII
Nothing in particular. The setting is still too large! Also, there are plenty more Convents; just because those are the largest does not mean that they contain the bulk of their number.
Lynata wrote:and that even the Ecclesiarchy's obscene wealth has its limits when the Sisters of Battle are "armed with the best wargear the Imperium has to offer" (CA 2002).
Space Marines are similarly armed, if not better!
EDIT: If they operate in a manner similar to Chapters and therefore don't spread around, their numbers as-is would be reasonable for the duties they are supposed to do. However, being that size while also spread around the Imperium? Eh.
EDIT2: In response to the original post; people "defend them with fanaticism" because they are very often discarded as "-4Str Marines", which is simply unfair. Such unfairness deserves to be met with "fanaticism"!
Frozen Ocean wrote:Nothing in particular. The setting is still too large! Also, there are plenty more Convents; just because those are the largest does not mean that they contain the bulk of their number.
Well, outside the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum, there's only the Minor Orders and their local obligations. The Minor Orders generally don't seem to partake in the larger wars, specifically because they are only around ~100 Sisters large each.
But yes, the Minor Orders are also the "unknown variable" where we don't know how many there are (unlike the six Major Orders). The only thing we know is that they don't show up very often in the fluff.
Still, you say "nothing in particular" - that I can't accept. The size of a setting alone is no grounds for the size of a force. Purpose, possibilities and limitations are. Otherwise that's just like saying "a country is this large, that means they must have X special forces".
And the Sisters of Battle are not meant to wage war in the truest fashion either - because that didn't turn out so well for the Imperium back in the Age of Apostasy.
Frozen Ocean wrote:Space Marines are similarly armed, if not better!
Not better as per GW's fluff - but similar, yes, and let us not forget all those vehicles, fliers and space ships. Much more than the Sororitas would have (imho).
The Ecclesiarchy has to juggle its budget, though. Whereas the Space Marines just shove everything they have into maintaining the Chapter, the Adeptus Ministorum also needs to maintain and build all those huge cathedrals we see. And a Sister of Battle, as powerful as they are, likely has a smaller life expectancy than a Space Marine. Dying easier also means a greater loss in expensive wargear.
Still, I admit this isn't the main reason I'd see for them to be a smaller force. Just one of several. The political considerations are probably more important?
ClockworkZion wrote:And while the Space Marines have a number of reasons/excuses to get around such issues (surgical strikes, worth more than their number, deploying with other military forces, ect), Sisters aren't noted for such things.
I wouldn't agree with that...
If you think Marines are worth more than their number, then you can say the same about Sisters.
If you think Marines are deploying with other military forces, then you can say the same about Sisters.
Marines are claimed to be worth far more than everyone else though. Sisters don't get fluff about being able to clear buildings armed with nothing more than a combat knife after all.
And while Sisters DO deploy with other armies, they don't do so more than anyone else does. Marines on the other hand show up where the fighting is the thickest, coordinate with the troops on ground and then try and take the fight to whomever is leading the enemy forces. That's a drastically different MO than the rest of the Imperium.
Lynata wrote: According to GW's material, the first line of defence on Ecclesiarchal property is the Frateris Militia. These also form the core of any War of Faith, where the Sisters of Battle merely function as the symbolic spearhead, providing a solid core of elite warriors the militia can rally around (an example might be found in Canoness Carmina's report on the Gaius Point incident). Likewise, local pogroms and witch hunts tend to be instigated by the clergy whipping the planetary populace into a religious frenzy.
"Frateris Militia can be formed in a variety of ways and for varying lengths of time. A Preacher discovering a heretical cult may rouse his followers to attack the enemy and cast them out. Confessors are often followed by large entourages of fanatical Frateris, crazed zealots and pious mendicants who will carry out his orders without question and would rather die than fail their leader. Missionaries often have a following of converts accompanying them, helping to spread the word of the Imperial Cult. In desperate situation, the Deacons, Deans and other functionaries may even be armed from the secret vaults in the Imperial Shrines. When the temples are threatened, these faithful may be the only defence against an enemy cult or alien invader.
When a War of Faith is declared, thousands of Frateris Militia will assemble with the ranks of the Battle Sisters and Imperial Guard, eager to prove their dedication to the Emperor." - 2E C:SoB
They've since dropped out of all codex materials and haven't even gotten a passing reference in the last two rulebooks (they were last in the 4th ed one I don't have a copy of that kicking around so that might be shaky), so who knows how valid that is anymore? Even if you consider that, a bunch of zealous, but untrained, old men aren't exactly going to win any protracted conflicts. There is a reason the Ecclesiarchy needs the Sisters and it isn't just because they look cool.
As of the 6th Edition rulebook the Sisters are listed as "waging Wars of Faith, aiding the Inquisition, or protecting Ecclesiarchy buildings, property, and relics." which in my mind means they're at least in every system there is an important site to the Ecclesiarchy, if not in some number on every world.
Lynata wrote: And before someone suggests that this Frateris Militia could necessitate a larger force of Battle Sisters should their religious leader go rogue, it's really not as if the Sisters would be incapable of doing those Marine-style surgical strikes as well:
"The types of operations embarked upon by the joint forces of the Ordo Hereticus and the Adepta Sororitas are often sensitive, and have at times amounted to little more than barely sanctioned assassination. The most common mission is a rapid, surgical strike against a religious group. Often the target of the attack will be a member of the Ministorum, perhaps a Cardinal or Missionary whose teachings have strayed too far from the accepted orthodoxy, forcing his excommunication. Such an individual may have a sizable following, and the Ordo will therefore expect stiff resistance to their attack. In such a situation it is imperative that the attack is carried out in secrecy. No witnesses are left alive to spread doubt, and no martyrs to the cause are allowed to inspire further rebellion." - CJ #49
CJ? I'm not sure what that is.
And when you add in the resources of the Inquisition just about anyone can be properly equipped to handle a surgical strike. But the Militant Orders aren't exactly equipped for that from what I see (no teleport homers, or beacons, no strike cruisers, no orbital bombardments, no vehicles specifically designed to break enemy lines/fortifications....ect).
Lynata wrote: So what exactly is it that one would need huge numbers of Sisters for? Almost everything the Sisters do, the Frateris Militia does as well, just in an obviously less reliable manner, and with much larger numbers. And the Frateris Militia, unlike the Sisters, has been said to exist everywhere, even where it exists only as an ad-hoc militia that is raised as the situation demands, rather than (as is sometimes the case) a permanent, unofficial army of the local clergy. The only things that the Frateris Militia do not do are official purity sweeps and hunting down rogue Marine Chapters. For the former, the Sisters team up with the Adeptus Arbites, and the Ordo Hereticus can requisition further forces such as Inquisitorial Storm Troopers squads or even regiments of the Imperial Guard to assist, if need be. And the latter really does not occur that often that you'd constantly need entire Orders on standby.
Well as I pointed out, the Frateris Militia isn't exactly someone you can rely on for anything longer than maybe a week. They're a militia, and because the Ecclesiarchy isn't allowed to keep "men under arms" (not to mention their primary focus not being combat) I highly doubt they're trained or maintained on any level that would allow them to be an effective long. Furthermore 6th Edition has explicitly stated that Sisters are now actively guarding anything and everything of importance to the Ecclesiarchy. That may not have been stated in the past, or not been explicit but it is now.
Lastly, I said a number of upwards to 100,000,000 Adeptus SororitasnotSisters of Battle. That means 100 million members in both the Militant AND non-Militant Orders. Considering how wide reaching their orders are, and how much they have on their plate at any given time AND the vastness of the Imperium this is not an unreasonable number. For the Imperium it's not even a big number. 100 million is just a drop in a bucket. They have individual hive worlds that have more people on them than that. Heck that's smaller than the population on Earth right now.
People seem to forget just how damn BIG the Imperium is. It's so massive that they can manage to find and deliver at least 1,000 Psykers a day and still have enough left over to make Sanctioned Psykers for the Imperial Guard AND all those telepaths needed to pass messages along. It's an empire so massive that no one even knows how many people are in it and by the time we knew the data would be wrong anyways because in that time it took to tally it up a hundred worlds would be lost, a hundred more would be found, trillions of trillions of trillions of people would be born or would die, and that's not even counting in the wars, raids, Hive Fleets and so on.
100 Million Adeptus Sororitas in the context of the setting is STILL a very small, elite number, and it's a more reasonable number than "numbering tens of thousands" per major militant order and who knows how many per every other order (again, 6th Edition).
Lynata wrote: And that is before we consider that the Adepta Sororitas is easily capable of summoning further assistance if need be - ranging from honour-bindings with the Adeptus Astartes (as we know from the 6E Space Marines Codex, specifically the recent additions to the Black Templars fluff) to the web of connections spun by the Orders Famulous:
"A Sister of one of the Orders Famulous can use her connections with the Imperial nobility to command other Imperial servants to provide her with troops. These are usually Imperial Guardsmen or Planetary Defence Force Personnel. [...]" - Chapter Approved 2002 : Sisters of Battle
There are still limits to what the Sororitas can pull, even through connections. And in times of crisis those resources can, and often are, stretched thin enough that the Sisters would be foolish to assume they can just pad their numbers when they deploy where ever.
Lynata wrote: "With members in every aspect of society, the Sisterhood can maintain a close eye on the affairs of the Imperium. The Orders Famulous report on the activities of the Noble Houses, the Orders Dialogus can inform their seniors of the deals and agreements binding the Imperium together and the Orders Hospitaller witness many things unseen outside their wards. All of this makes the Adepta Sororitas a useful political as well as social tool, and with the armed might of the Orders Militant, the Sisterhood has the protection and power it needs to operate successfully." - 2E C:SoB
tl;dr: Two things: The Minor Orders take care of local matters wherever necessary or appropriate, the Major Orders (with their larger size and mobility) are the hard-hitting troops, whose units are despatched to threatened areas of special importance to the Ecclesiarchy, or to serve as vanguard for a crusade. For clarification, what exactly is it that people believe there are supposedly too few Sisters for? Why does a number around 100k seem "too few" for what they are supposed to do and meant to represent? Especially considering the Inquisition's scepticism regarding the Ecclesiarchy amassing too much military might, and the limited space within the two primary Convents on Terra and Ophelia VII, and that even the Ecclesiarchy's obscene wealth has its limits when the Sisters of Battle are "armed with the best wargear the Imperium has to offer" (CA 2002).
Minor Orders are not fighting orders though. And while some Sisters of Battle "retire" to them, it's safe to say that not everyone there is a seasoned soldier of any measure. It's because of this that I feel that we're stretching when we say they'd just "handle" things. And even working with someone else and having them do the heavy lifting has limits. PDFs are often barely trained at best (some worlds ARE better about it than others, but let's be honest here, a regular Guardsmen is a better fighter than they are), and the Imperial Guard can't always be summoned as they're usually found only where things are so bad that the Imperium has decided that throwing countless bodies at the problem is the most effective strategy. They can't afford their time to jump at the Sororitas every beck and call, family and diplomatic ties or not. Remember, diplomacy is a rapier, not a hammer. It's wielded with precision and wit, not used to blindly beat problems down.
Lynata wrote: Here's a thought - maybe the Imperium refrains from raising more Sisters of Battle for the same reason it refrains from raising more Chapters of Space Marines. Both the Ecclesiarchy as well as the Adeptus Astartes have in the past abused their military might and influence to plunge the Imperium into civil war. Perhaps the High Lords think that the current numbers are perfectly alright, because this has been sufficient for thousands of years and because those resources could just as well be spent elsewhere? Certainly the Ecclesiarch may argue for additional troops, but even though he is a High Lord himself there are limits to what one could dare on the political battlefield that is the Inquisition-supervised Senatorum Imperialis. I mean, it took the Ecclesiarchy 2.500 years to expand the number of Sisters in the Major Orders from 20.000 to 30.000 ...
During the Reign of Blood the Sisters swelled from a few hundred to over 10,000. I'm pretty sure it can be done rather easily. Furthermore the Sisters of Battle don't have any fluff suggesting that there are any limits on their numbers of any kind (just no men). They don't even have to ask the High Lords to found new Orders like the Marines do, instead a number of them are reassigned from the order their under to become a new order responsible for whatever it is their tasked with as their main mission. They are then basically added to the roster and Sisters can transfer to this order like any other, or be assigned to them based on whatever selection process there is during their training.
I think the real problem is people keep thinking of people like we do instead of how they do. The Imperium is willing to through thousands of Guardsmen at a single objective everyday and they are in no danger of ever running out. A few million, or even a billion Sororitas spread across the entire Imperium is not a big number in the scale we're talking here. And that's my problem, the writers use a scale that sounds reasonable if we were talking about real people here on Earth, but we're not. We're talking about an empire so massive that it's measured in not one, but many quadrillions.
To put that in perspective a quadrillion is a 1 followed by fifteen 0s. That looks like this: 1,000,000,000,000,000. A hundred million is 0.0001%of that. And that's just out of ONE quadrillion. The Imperium has a LOT more than one. To be safe, we'll call it a nice, reasonable 6 Quadrillion. That'd make a hundred million approximately .000000167%of that.
So no, 100 Million isn't a "lot". It's hardly a drop in the teaming ocean that is humanity in this setting but at least it's a large enough drop that could see the idea of having Sororitas in every sector and MAYBE every system as a lot more feasible than the numbers we've been seeing.
And no, I didn't run the math before this post, if I had, I would have said a hundred billion Sororitas.
Hollowman wrote:I'd be more inclined to say Space marines have a set of genes that make them far more behaviorally limited than proper humans. Something not far off from sociopathy.
Okay, but that's just your personal guess. As far as GW is concerned, this limited behaviour is a result of their monastic lifestyle. The Sisters are just better at that, so they are more limited, and so they are less likely to suffer corruption. It all adds up.
GW fluff has made a great deal of the physiological differences between Space marines and humans, from extra organs all the way up to an inability to feel fear and many other normal emotions.
How are the Space Wolves any different? Nothing about drinking, fighting and carousing makes Space Wolves fundamentally more human - they just share a few behaviors with normal humans. My point is not that Space marines are more "pure" than SOB, but rather that SoB have a greater range of behavior and would be expected to break more often from the traditional mold. SW are all toting genes from SW prime, and their range of variation is pretty slim.
Lynata wrote: ]Do Space Marines have the same genetic, social and experiential history as every other member of their Chapter? No. Yet you are perfectly happy to ascribe a more limited behaviour to them (even in the face of obvious exceptions such as the aforementioned Space Wolves) but not to the Sisters, whose "experiential history" is much more uniform than that of the Marines, given that unlike Astartes recruits they all grew up in a similarly controlled environment?
Marines gave a more constrained set of reactions - they don't respond the way humans do to a variety of things according to GW. The Sisters have a superior range of behavior and are more adaptable than the astartes, who are bio engineered to be a specific sort of person. Upbringing has a huge effect, but it does not make one fundamentally inhuman.
Lynata wrote: That is because churches and governments are perfectly happy with varying levels of social and behavioural indoctrination, as the leaders tend to come from those segments of the populace that are less in its grip and who do not see a need to change the status quo. It takes a sheperd to herd the sheep, after all. You are also dismissing the continuous rivalry between both church and government, and between different governments, which is not only a significant difference to the setting in 40k, but also has a profound effect on how much any one of these bodies would even be able to expand its indoctrination to all levels, even if it wanted to. Certainly, it has been attempted often enough in history, but always external forces have curbed the success of such measures.
It would be a lot more accurate to say internal forces curbed the success of such measures - we are terrible subjects for such things. They only work to a given level and no more. Flexible as we are, we are still driven by emotional and instinctive responses that are impossible to fully remove from a population. If you want a more malleable and easily mastered people you need to do some serious tinkering with how we fundamentally work - something that has been done with the Marines, but not the Sisters. I think you underestimate the lengths groups have gone attempting to reshape humanity to their own ends, and failed.
Lynata wrote: The Sisters are a monastic order, and to the Ecclesiarchy just like, say, the Dominicans or the Knights Templar are to the Catholic Church. As history has shown, the various monasteries and orders need not necessarily practice the same lifestyle as the clergy of the church. It would be an oddity, even. Part of the reason those monasteries were founded was to GET AWAY from everyday life and temptation, as opposed to the church, whose mission includes spreading the faith and tending to everyone's spiritual wellbeing (which in turn obviously requires contact with the people).
Monastic orders are hardly immune to individuals acting outside the normal strictures of the community, sometimes quite boldly. An oddity would be a huge population lacking in black sheep, free thinkers, the curious, and those who break from dogma. You can't find that anywhere from cloistered nuns to Yanomami tribes to the depths of the Taliban.
I think what most people who "don't get" SOB don't realize is that they're the fighting arm of the Church. That's just as big as the Imperial government. (maybe richer.) That a HUGE portion of humanity's power. So, yes, they have an army that isn't IG or SM. The religious background of the Imperium is what defines it. Such a pivotal piece of the fluff needs representation. (Which is why I really, really want a Mechanicum army.)
That's what attracted me to them, was that they represent that religious fanaticism I like about the 40k universe.
But GW does seem to ignore them and my opinion is that even if they put out a codex or supplement every week, they'd still find excuses not to do a SOB codex. Again, I'd love to be proved wrong.
As for the numbers, the GW writers have no freaking idea how large real armies are. 21,000 SOB? We couldn't hold Iraq with so few numbers, let along a whole planet...or hundreds of planets. The Red Army in WWII had over a million. Again, just one army on one planet. GW needs to multiply all their numbers by a hundred to come close to something realistic.
Also, I feel the need for more SOB fluff. So I wrote one. (for the new people.)
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/547273.page
Yes, it's really silly there's not an AdMech army codex at all -- Sisters at least get something.
And given the sheer sprawling size of the Imperium, and how fragmented it is, and how isolated some regions can get due to warp storms and worse, you can reasonably justify any deviation from the norm, from Sisters who get as drunk as Space Wolves or who practice ritualized prostitution as an initiation rite (it's a Book of Genesis thing) to Sisters who just assume they're all unbearably sinful by the mere fact of being human and form Minor Orders entirely composed of Repentia (didn't someone write a fandex for just this?).
Yes they are. The 5e codex still describes them as "Orders Militant", and says that each of them is an "elite military force". They're not quiet retirement opportunities, they're SoBs dedicated to the military defence of something or somewhere. And if they've been set up in the first place, one would expect that they'd be very likely to face combat fairly often.
Hollowman wrote: but rather that SoB have a greater range of behavior and would be expected to break more often from the traditional mold.
Why? Are those years and years of hard indoctrination meaningless? And again, I'd like to point to who has the better track record at resisting Chaotic corruption. It seems that the Sororitas are the hardest to break from their mold.
Hollowman wrote: Marines gave a more constrained set of reactions - they don't respond the way humans do to a variety of things according to GW. The Sisters have a superior range of behavior and are more adaptable than the astartes
See, this is the problem you're having. You're still thinking of the Sisters as normal humans, and thinking that the post-human status of the Astartes makes them automatically less expressive and emotive.
Hollowman wrote: we are still driven by emotional and instinctive responses that are impossible to fully remove from a population.
Okay, and how does Chaotic corruption work? It latches onto those things, yes? And who has the better track record at resisting Chaos?
Hollowman wrote: An oddity would be a huge population lacking in black sheep
And the SoB have had a black sheep of sorts, Sister Miriya, form the James Swallow books. However, whilst she was something of a maverick, willing to go against orders, it was still all in the service of her dogmas. She still had the Sororitas mindset, being disapproving of things considered "deviant". Her every major action was still in service to the Emperor, not herself. I think that she is a far more accurate depcition of what a Sororitas "black sheep" would look like.
SisterSydney wrote: Yes, it's really silly there's not an AdMech army codex at all
FW is working on an AdMedch army, for what it's worth.
Yes they are. The 5e codex still describes them as "Orders Militant", and says that each of them is an "elite military force". They're not quiet retirement opportunities, they're SoBs dedicated to the military defence of something or somewhere. And if they've been set up in the first place, one would expect that they'd be very likely to face combat fairly often.
I apologize, it was late and I was tired. I meant to preface that with "Not all....". There are plenty of non-Militant Orders out there and the point was not all of them are essentially soldiers and that's fine, not all of them need to be, but we need to recognize that fact that when we start talking about the orders, or even the Sororitas in general about half the orders out there are in some kind of organizational support role and because of this there are a good deal of them who are not really the ones who should be in combat, and if they are, something went wrong.
ClockworkZion wrote:Marines are claimed to be worth far more than everyone else though. Sisters don't get fluff about being able to clear buildings armed with nothing more than a combat knife after all.
Yet GW still said they are "equal to their brother Space Marines".
Just because it's not touted in every third sentence as is the case with the Astartes (and even there I've never seen anything about "clearing buildings with only a combat knife" in studio fluff) does not necessarily mean the Sisters as an organisation are less capable. Maybe they just need 2 Sisters to equal 1 Marine, instead of 10 Guardsmen for 1 Marine. But since the Major Orders are several times the size of an Astartes Chapter, I still see no problem here. Equal weapons and armour protection would do a lot to equalise fighting prowess, and genetical enhancements have their limitations when confronted by a cal .75 armour-piercing timed explosive charge.
ClockworkZion wrote:And while Sisters DO deploy with other armies, they don't do so more than anyone else does.
When they actually go to war? Sure they do.
Whenever they don't it's usually out of necessity (reinforcements not available or not trusted) or because the operation was deemed perfectly within their own capabilities as an independent force. The Space Marines are no different, and if need be I can deliver a number of examples of Space Marines doing lesser stuff on their own as well, such as the Iron Hands eradicating a bunch of feral tribes on Medusa IV (what a challenge for the Astartes!).
ClockworkZion wrote:They've since dropped out of all codex materials and haven't even gotten a passing reference in the last two rulebooks (they were last in the 4th ed one I don't have a copy of that kicking around so that might be shaky), so who knows how valid that is anymore?
If we'd only go with the fluff of the current edition, then the background of the Sisters of Battle consists of nothing but two pages in the Rulebook.
Fortunately, GW has always built on and added on previous fluff, so until they publish something that at least hints at the Ecclesiarchy suddenly not turning Imperial citizens into fanatical mobs anymore, I don't see why it should be discarded. Hell, the designer's notes for the 3E Codex even flat-out stated that 1E Rogue Trader fluff for the Sisters is still valid.
ClockworkZion wrote:Even if you consider that, a bunch of zealous, but untrained, old men aren't exactly going to win any protracted conflicts.
Sebastian Thor would like to have a word with you regarding the Age of Apostasy. The Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus would have never opposed Vandire were it not for that "bunch of zealous but untrained old men" and the path they carved to Terra.
Zealots can come from any vocation and background, and though I'm quite sure that some of them will be "untrained old men" you'll also have men (and women) in their prime, and some of them may have even had previous experience with various weapons (be it due to their profession or the world's cultural background). In fact, the Frateris Militia can be so dangerous that the Ecclesiarchy tends to refrain from raising larger mobs outside times of dire need not because they fear the Inquisition, but because of the collateral damage these fanatics can cause. When local enforcers and PDF are unable to reliably contain these rioters, I think it's safe to say that they can be dangerous enough to serve as cannonfodder against alien incursion as well.
"A single man with faith can triumph over a legion of the faithless. Untold billions of the faithful can never be opposed." - Sermons of Thor, volume XI Chapter IV
"One man can start a landslide with the casting of a single pebble." - Ecclesiarch Deacis IX
ClockworkZion wrote:As of the 6th Edition rulebook the Sisters are listed as "waging Wars of Faith, aiding the Inquisition, or protecting Ecclesiarchy buildings, property, and relics." which in my mind means they're at least in every system there is an important site to the Ecclesiarchy, if not in some number on every world.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree here. We'd see a lot more SoB in the fluff if a general task to protect Ecclesiarchy property and personnel would mean that means they actually do protect property and personnel on-site at any time. That's kind of like saying that every single town and village to the smallest five-families-hamlet has its own police or fire department just because the respective organisation's general mandate encompasses every single citizen. But that's not how it works. They respond when needed and move out to help, but that doesn't mean they have to be around anywhere and everywhere.
You're also missing the rulebook's explicit statement that sometimes it's just a single Sister standing lone vigil over a shrine.
ClockworkZion wrote:CJ? I'm not sure what that is.
And when you add in the resources of the Inquisition just about anyone can be properly equipped to handle a surgical strike. But the Militant Orders aren't exactly equipped for that from what I see (no teleport homers, or beacons, no strike cruisers, no orbital bombardments, no vehicles specifically designed to break enemy lines/fortifications....ect).
Ah, CJ is "Citadel Journal" - it used to be a magazine from GW much like White Dwarf, but with more focus on rules and tinkering rather than news. Sadly, it's no longer in print (much like the BFG magazine)... :(
And for their capabilities, Codex Imperialis mentioned the primary Convents have their own fleets, and the CJ article mentioned the Orders even keeping drop pods in storage - though they tend to break them out only when being tasked to purge a rogue Marine Chapter, which they do by "disabling it from the top down". Their Seraphim jump infantry would also come in handy when it comes to deep-striking such fortifications, or blowing holes into it via usage of melta-bombs. And then we have the Exorcist missile tank that could be deployed in a siege.
Granted, many of these abilities are (imho) limited to the Major Orders, but I would expect the Minor Orders to call in help from their maternal Ordo Maioris if, for some reason, they see themselves unable to cope with such a task. Fortunately, few cathedrals are built like a fortress, tho.
Spoiler:
I think very few 40k fans are familiar with the various toys or capabilities the Sisterhood has been associated with over the years. This is a result of GW simply not writing a lot about them, though. Most of the fluff that gets repeated over the years is the same general description we see again and again, with more specialised stuff being limited to WD and website articles or the (proper) Codex books - but who here has actually read those?
ClockworkZion wrote:Lastly, I said a number of upwards to 100,000,000 Adeptus SororitasnotSisters of Battle. That means 100 million members in both the Militant AND non-Militant Orders.
The Liber Sororitas in WD #293 mentioned that no Non-Militant section of the Sisterhood is larger than the Militant - the largest ones such as the Orders Famulous are barely equal in number. There's a lot of smaller non-militant Orders, some of whom are just a dozen Sisters pursuing some strange task, but I don't think that those are the subject of the discussion here, apart form the sheer impossibility to quantify them.
ClockworkZion wrote:and it's a more reasonable number than "numbering tens of thousands" per major militant order and who knows how many per every other order (again, 6th Edition)
"Thousands", not tens of thousands. And I'm still saying that applying to the size of the setting is a mistake. For the Sisters of Battle - as well as for the Space Marines.
It's the very same thing. Neither army is meant to wage wars on their own, and neither army is expected to be anywhere at every time.
ClockworkZion wrote:PDFs are often barely trained at best (some worlds ARE better about it than others, but let's be honest here, a regular Guardsmen is a better fighter than they are)
The Imperial Guard is recruited out of the PDF. They don't magically turn into better fighters just because they are suddenly fighting off-world, and there are a lot of PDFs who are more elite than a lot of IG regiments - given that the latter are sometimes recruited directly from untrained farmhands or prison gangs, with the only military training they ever had being what the Commissar managed to drill into their heads in the time their transport took to arrive at the warzone they were shipped to.
ClockworkZion wrote:Furthermore the Sisters of Battle don't have any fluff suggesting that there are any limits on their numbers of any kind (just no men).
They have to be female orphans, whose parents were Imperial officials and who have been raised in the Schola Progenium from infancy, where they had to excel in both physical and mental disciplines far beyond the average, and whose bodies must be pure and free of mutation of any kind. That's a fairly long set of basic requirements right there.
And, as I've mentioned earlier, the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum can only house 15.000 Sisters tops, each. With any Minor Order offshoot being a spontaneous decision regarding a detachment of the Major Orders to remain on-site even when their original mission was already accomplished, or when it was realised that their mission would take much, much longer. The fact that the Minor Orders only started to pop up in mid M38 is a fairly important sign regarding how often that seems to happen.
ClockworkZion wrote:They don't even have to ask the High Lords to found new Orders like the Marines do
You don't know that. When the Sisters were first founded, the Inquisition called the Conclave of Nephilim to address the issue of the Ecclesiarchy suddenly having an army in spite of the Decree Passive, and it was resolved only because of that backroom deal with the Ordo Hereticus. Arguably, there's quite a lot of influential people who are sceptical regarding the relationship between the Orders Militant and the Church.
Holloman wrote:Nothing about drinking, fighting and carousing makes Space Wolves fundamentally more human - they just share a few behaviors with normal humans.
I'm fairly sure you just contradicted yourself here.
Hollowman wrote:Marines gave a more constrained set of reactions - they don't respond the way humans do to a variety of things according to GW. The Sisters have a superior range of behavior and are more adaptable than the astartes
Not according to GW.
Hollowman wrote:It would be a lot more accurate to say internal forces curbed the success of such measures - we are terrible subjects for such things.
I disagree - I think we are terrible subjects due to our "vulnerability" to outside influence. This is almost a sociopolitical topic that may have less to do with what we're talking about, though, as much as I think it might be interesting for a thread or PM discussion on its own.
MWHistorian wrote:21,000 SOB? We couldn't hold Iraq with so few numbers, let along a whole planet...or hundreds of planets.
That's what I keep saying all the time. The SoB are not expected to hold a whole planet. Neither are the Space Marines. I feel like people in this thread are still treating them like line troops when the Ecclesiarchy uses them more like its own version of Space Marines. This comparison/proximity to the Astartes seems quite intended by GW and has in the past been directly referenced in studio material. As much as this is an obvious oversimplification - they are indeed "female Space Marines", close in combat prowess as well as rarity.
(interesting story thread, btw - may have to give that a read when I'm no longer in the office)
SisterSydney wrote:Yes, it's really silly there's not an AdMech army codex at all -- Sisters at least get something.
I used to justify it with the Adeptus Mechanicus doing little in terms of military operations as they leave this to the IG - but I think I've come around to a position where I'd say it would be cool to have a sort of "Explorator army list" for those forces attached to a Mechanicus Explorator team. Lots of servitors and TechGuard. It'd be a little like the old Inquisition armies of 3E, just that the Inquisitor would be a Tech-Priest... ahh, ideas.
SisterSydney wrote:And given the sheer sprawling size of the Imperium, and how fragmented it is, and how isolated some regions can get due to warp storms and worse, you can reasonably justify any deviation from the norm, from Sisters who get as drunk as Space Wolves or who practice ritualized prostitution as an initiation rite (it's a Book of Genesis thing) to Sisters who just assume they're all unbearably sinful by the mere fact of being human and form Minor Orders entirely composed of Repentia (didn't someone write a fandex for just this?).
This kind of variation would be explicitly contradicted by the Liber Sororitas, though.
"As the Orders are primarily based together at one of these two sites the Sisterhood as a whole is a far more homogenous organisation than many other institutions of the Imperium, such as the Adeptus Astartes or the Imperial Guard. Though Sisters spend many long hours in solitude or training, they are nonetheless part of a wider organisation than their own Order, and for this reason see themselves as members of the Adepta Sororitas as much as their own Order. Furthermore, it is not uncommon for a Sister to transfer from one Order to another, particularly in the case of a Sister who has become wounded or too old to fight transferring from an Order Militant to one of the non-militant Orders, such as the Orders Famulous or Hospitaller. It has also been known for a senior member of the Adepta Sororitas to leave the organisation entirely for higher office elsewhere, such as within the upper echelons of the Adeptus Terra, or the Inquisition – such an event is unheard of within the Adeptus Astartes, and far from common within the Imperial Guard.
It has been observed that the different Adepta Sororitas Orders do not display any great divergence from one another in terms of combat doctrine or organisation, as do many Space Marine Chapters and Imperial Guard regiments. Such differences arise, in the case of the Astartes, from the strong genetic link with the Chapter's Primarch or in the case of the Imperial Guard, as a result of combat doctrines unique to the culture from which the regiment was raised. The Adepta Sororitas can trace the routes of its doctrines to a single source - the San Leor temple of the Daughters of the Emperor - and their teachings have remained largely unchanged since that time.
Despite the lack of significant divergences between the Orders Militant in terms of organisation and combat doctrine, there is a degree of variance to be found within the teachings of the founders of the Orders, which tends to reflect the outlook of each Founding Saint. For example, the Sisters of the Order of Our Martyred Lady can be said to reflect the vengeful nature of their patron, Saint Katherine, while the Sisters of the Order the Bloody Rose share the brooding, quick to anger nature of Saint Mina."
Speaking of, this "primarily based" is a good sign that the Major Orders still command more importance than the Minor ones, which wouldn't be the case if they were less significant due to size.
It's also worth pointing out that every single Novice Sister takes her vows on Terra itself, in a ceremony in presence of the Ecclesiarch, with only 499 other novices present. I just don't see this working out if there'd be millions of them that'd have to be shipped around like that.
tl;dr - the Sisters of the different Orders idolise different Founding Saints and thus tend to differ in their imitation, but I really don't think it would allow for such crass deviation from what we actually read in GW's material and how this faction is introduced to us.
ClockworkZion wrote:Marines are claimed to be worth far more than everyone else though. Sisters don't get fluff about being able to clear buildings armed with nothing more than a combat knife after all.
Yet GW still said they are "equal to their brother Space Marines".
Just because it's not touted in every third sentence as is the case with the Astartes (and even there I've never seen anything about "clearing buildings with only a combat knife" in studio fluff) does not necessarily mean the Sisters as an organisation are less capable. Maybe they just need 2 Sisters to equal 1 Marine, instead of 10 Guardsmen for 1 Marine. But since the Major Orders are several times the size of an Astartes Chapter, I still see no problem here. Equal weapons and armour protection would do a lot to equalise fighting prowess, and genetical enhancements have their limitations when confronted by a cal .75 armour-piercing timed explosive charge.
5th Ed Vanguard Vets fluff talks about their prowess and ability to kill large numbers of enemies even when minimally equipped.
ClockworkZion wrote:And while Sisters DO deploy with other armies, they don't do so more than anyone else does.
When they actually go to war? Sure they do.
Whenever they don't it's usually out of necessity (reinforcements not available or not trusted) or because the operation was deemed perfectly within their own capabilities as an independent force. The Space Marines are no different, and if need be I can deliver a number of examples of Space Marines doing lesser stuff on their own as well, such as the Iron Hands eradicating a bunch of feral tribes on Medusa IV (what a challenge for the Astartes!).
I did say they work with other organizations, but the way they handle combat with them is more traditionally than the Marine's "strike the head" methods.
ClockworkZion wrote:They've since dropped out of all codex materials and haven't even gotten a passing reference in the last two rulebooks (they were last in the 4th ed one I don't have a copy of that kicking around so that might be shaky), so who knows how valid that is anymore?
If we'd only go with the fluff of the current edition, then the background of the Sisters of Battle consists of nothing but two pages in the Rulebook.
Fortunately, GW has always built on and added on previous fluff, so until they publish something that at least hints at the Ecclesiarchy suddenly not turning Imperial citizens into fanatical mobs anymore, I don't see why it should be discarded. Hell, the designer's notes for the 3E Codex even flat-out stated that 1E Rogue Trader fluff for the Sisters is still valid.
i'm not saying that the Frateris Militia can't be around anymore, but it Seems that the focus is less on them and more in the Sisters who seem to have picked up some of those duties.
And those two pages of fluff managed to do a nice job of dropping the Inquisitorial ties, something we take as pretty canon.
ClockworkZion wrote:Even if you consider that, a bunch of zealous, but untrained, old men aren't exactly going to win any protracted conflicts.
Sebastian Thor would like to have a word with you regarding the Age of Apostasy. The Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus would have never opposed Vandire were it not for that "bunch of zealous but untrained old men" and the path they carved to Terra.
Zealots can come from any vocation and background, and though I'm quite sure that some of them will be "untrained old men" you'll also have men (and women) in their prime, and some of them may have even had previous experience with various weapons (be it due to their profession or the world's cultural background). In fact, the Frateris Militia can be so dangerous that the Ecclesiarchy tends to refrain from raising larger mobs outside times of dire need not because they fear the Inquisition, but because of the collateral damage these fanatics can cause. When local enforcers and PDF are unable to reliably contain these rioters, I think it's safe to say that they can be dangerous enough to serve as cannonfodder against alien incursion as well.
"A single man with faith can triumph over a legion of the faithless. Untold billions of the faithful can never be opposed." - Sermons of Thor, volume XI Chapter IV
"One man can start a landslide with the casting of a single pebble." - Ecclesiarch Deacis IX
The Reign of Blood involved Vandire also taking over the Administranium which gave him control over far more than just preachers and priests.
ClockworkZion wrote:As of the 6th Edition rulebook the Sisters are listed as "waging Wars of Faith, aiding the Inquisition, or protecting Ecclesiarchy buildings, property, and relics." which in my mind means they're at least in every system there is an important site to the Ecclesiarchy, if not in some number on every world.
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree here. We'd see a lot more SoB in the fluff if a general task to protect Ecclesiarchy property and personnel would mean that means they actually do protect property and personnel on-site at any time. That's kind of like saying that every single town and village to the smallest five-families-hamlet has its own police or fire department just because the respective organisation's general mandate encompasses every single citizen. But that's not how it works. They respond when needed and move out to help, but that doesn't mean they have to be around anywhere and everywhere.
You're also missing the rulebook's explicit statement that sometimes it's just a single Sister standing lone vigil over a shrine.
That statement hardly contradicts my point though. How many worlds are ther in the Imperium again? 50 million plus? To put. Minimum of one Sister on every world we'd need far more than we have now. And that's not even going into the fact we know they deploy in higher numbers as well.
ClockworkZion wrote:CJ? I'm not sure what that is.
And when you add in the resources of the Inquisition just about anyone can be properly equipped to handle a surgical strike. But the Militant Orders aren't exactly equipped for that from what I see (no teleport homers, or beacons, no strike cruisers, no orbital bombardments, no vehicles specifically designed to break enemy lines/fortifications....ect).
Ah, CJ is "Citadel Journal" - it used to be a magazine from GW much like White Dwarf, but with more focus on rules and tinkering rather than news. Sadly, it's no longer in print (much like the BFG magazine)... :(
Ah, I don't own any of those so was not aware of any details in them.
Lynata wrote: And for their capabilities, Codex Imperialis mentioned the primary Convents have their own fleets, and the CJ article mentioned the Orders even keeping drop pods in storage - though they tend to break them out only when being tasked to purge a rogue Marine Chapter, which they do by "disabling it from the top down". Their Seraphim jump infantry would also come in handy when it comes to deep-striking such fortifications, or blowing holes into it via usage of melta-bombs. And then we have the Exorcist missile tank that could be deployed in a siege.
Granted, many of these abilities are (imho) limited to the Major Orders, but I would expect the Minor Orders to call in help from their maternal Ordo Maioris if, for some reason, they see themselves unable to cope with such a task. Fortunately, few cathedrals are built like a fortress, tho.
Spoiler:
See, I'd never seen that article, and while I am familiar with seeing those drop pods around now and then I still don't think Sisters are completely set up to fight like Marines do. They can do aspects of it, but the way things are done is different between the two and without alot of new toys, the Sisters aren't set up to approach every conflict that way.
I think very few 40k fans are familiar with the various toys or capabilities the Sisterhood has been associated with over the years. This is a result of GW simply not writing a lot about them, though. Most of the fluff that gets repeated over the years is the same general description we see again and again, with more specialised stuff being limited to WD and website articles or the (proper) Codex books - but who here has actually read those?
I don't have access to the Citadel Journals, or the old supplement rulebooks but I have read a lot of their fluff (I've got the Liber Sororitasand even a copy of the WD where they detail sculpting GS flames for the heavy flamers) and I have the codexes. There is a limit to what we can dig up though as a lot of stuff has vanished in the last 20+ years.
ClockworkZion wrote:Lastly, I said a number of upwards to 100,000,000 Adeptus SororitasnotSisters of Battle. That means 100 million members in both the Militant AND non-Militant Orders.
The Liber Sororitas in WD #293 mentioned that no Non-Militant section of the Sisterhood is larger than the Militant - the largest ones such as the Orders Famulous are barely equal in number. There's a lot of smaller non-militant Orders, some of whom are just a dozen Sisters pursuing some strange task, but I don't think that those are the subject of the discussion here, apart form the sheer impossibility to quantify them.
Even going off of that, you can easily split the number I gave in half you can easily say that the individual non-militant sections are smaller than the militant one without contradicting anything.
ClockworkZion wrote:and it's a more reasonable number than "numbering tens of thousands" per major militant order and who knows how many per every other order (again, 6th Edition)
"Thousands", not tens of thousands. And I'm still saying that applying to the size of the setting is a mistake. For the Sisters of Battle - as well as for the Space Marines.
It's the very same thing. Neither army is meant to wage wars on their own, and neither army is expected to be anywhere at every time.
i'll have to look at the rule book again, but I think it says the 6 major militant orders have tens of thousands. Still not enough for the size of the Imperium in my opinion though.
ClockworkZion wrote:PDFs are often barely trained at best (some worlds ARE better about it than others, but let's be honest here, a regular Guardsmen is a better fighter than they are)
The Imperial Guard is recruited out of the PDF. They don't magically turn into better fighters just because they are suddenly fighting off-world, and there are a lot of PDFs who are more elite than a lot of IG regiments - given that the latter are sometimes recruited directly from untrained farmhands or prison gangs, with the only military training they ever had being what the Commissar managed to drill into their heads in the time their transport took to arrive at the warzone they were shipped to.
Conscripts are a good example of what the PDF wold be like on the table.
And the Guard get training once they join. They train, and fight. If they live they might get leave too. They are no longer butchers or bakers or anything else, just Soldiers. And it's that distinction that makes them better than the PDF: they can focus on just being a soldier.
ClockworkZion wrote:Furthermore the Sisters of Battle don't have any fluff suggesting that there are any limits on their numbers of any kind (just no men).
They have to be female orphans, whose parents were Imperial officials and who have been raised in the Schola Progenium from infancy, where they had to excel in both physical and mental disciplines far beyond the average, and whose bodies must be pure and free of mutation of any kind. That's a fairly long set of basic requirements right there.
And, as I've mentioned earlier, the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum can only house 15.000 Sisters tops, each. With any Minor Order offshoot being a spontaneous decision regarding a detachment of the Major Orders to remain on-site even when their original mission was already accomplished, or when it was realised that their mission would take much, much longer. The fact that the Minor Orders only started to pop up in mid M38 is a fairly important sign regarding how often that seems to happen.
It is a long list of requirements but in a selection pool as large as the Imperium are you honestly trying to say it'd be hard to find people wo fit the qualifications?
And seeing as the fluff of the Sisters puts them as barely being in their home sites due to hard far and wide their spread I fail to see an issue with the housing.
ClockworkZion wrote:They don't even have to ask the High Lords to found new Orders like the Marines do
You don't know that. When the Sisters were first founded, the Inquisition called the Conclave of Nephilim to address the issue of the Ecclesiarchy suddenly having an army in spite of the Decree Passive, and it was resolved only because of that backroom deal with the Ordo Hereticus. Arguably, there's quite a lot of influential people who are sceptical regarding the relationship between the Orders Militant and the Church.
You mean the same Conclave that vanished from the codex materials in 5th, and originally only existed as a way to justify C:WH in the first place?
Aside from that, with the Sisters being pretty good at executing people who need it, even in the Ecclesiarchy, I don't imagine people would be too upset with them seeing at they do a good job keeping the Ecclesiarchy in check, somethingthe rest of the Imperium apparently failed to do in the past.
That said, you glossed over my points about the scale of the Imperium and how illogical it is for us to have numbers THAT small.
That statement hardly contradicts my point though. How many worlds are ther in the Imperium again? 50 million plus? To put. Minimum of one Sister on every world we'd need far more than we have now. And that's not even going into the fact we know they deploy in higher numbers as well.
One million worlds in the Imperium, give or take. One million Space Marines. One for every world in the Imperium.
ClockworkZion wrote:5th Ed Vanguard Vets fluff talks about their prowess and ability to kill large numbers of enemies even when minimally equipped.
I'd wager that's referring to boltguns rather than knives, though. But I am also still going by GW's fluff about the chance of las weapons to injure Marines.
ClockworkZion wrote:i'm not saying that the Frateris Militia can't be around anymore, but it Seems that the focus is less on them and more in the Sisters who seem to have picked up some of those duties.
And those two pages of fluff managed to do a nice job of dropping the Inquisitorial ties, something we take as pretty canon.
The Inquisitorial ties are a good example, actually. The two pages of fluff in the SoB section of the rulebook don't mention anything about the Ordo Hereticus, yet the Inquisition textbox in the Imperium organisation section still refers to it.
And I now have a feeling I might be able to find something about the Frateris Militia in the pages about the Ecclesiarchy, too, which has its own section in the BRB. Will confirm after I get home.
ClockworkZion wrote:The Reign of Blood involved Vandire also taking over the Administranium which gave him control over far more than just preachers and priests.
That's a point in my favour, actually. I wasn't referring to Vandire's armies of Frateris Templars and Imperial Guard, but to Sebastian Thor's "Confederacy of Light" - that crusade of the common people that started on Dimmamar and then carved a path right unto Terra, in spite of Vandire's control.
Sure, you could argue how it picked up elements of PDF on the way from governors swayed by Thor and his followers, but this is no different from an Ecclesiarchal War of Faith being unofficially joined by Imperial Guard and Navy units because of the influence the Confessors have over the faithful.
ClockworkZion wrote:How many worlds are ther in the Imperium again? 50 million plus?
A million.
Including AdMech Forge Worlds, Astartes fiefs, prison and mining colonies, ...
Although that is admittedly besides the point, as I'd even argue against the idea of there being one Sister per world.
ClockworkZion wrote:There is a limit to what we can dig up though as a lot of stuff has vanished in the last 20+ years.
Unfortunately. I'm still trying to hunt down anything I can get my greedy fingers on and managed to acquire some really old issues of White Dwarf, but I still feel like I'm missing stuff ...
Still, props for having the Liber Sororitas and the old Codices! That's more than most.
ClockworkZion wrote:i'll have to look at the rule book again, but I think it says the 6 major militant orders have tens of thousands.
"The Adepta Sororitas are divided into several major Orders Militant, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors. There are also many lesser Sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred Battle Sisters." - 6E Rulebook p.195
You sure you don't have the "tens of thousands" from a Lexicanum article? Because just a week ago someone else fell into the same trap (that's how I can whip up the quote so fast ).
ClockworkZion wrote:And the Guard get training once they join. They train, and fight. If they live they might get leave too. They are no longer butchers or bakers or anything else, just Soldiers. And it's that distinction that makes them better than the PDF: they can focus on just being a soldier.
This is almost a topic for itself, but:
Guard get training once they join, yes. Maybe they've had some before, but it's not guaranteed. The training they get once they join depends entirely on the time it takes their transport to arrive at the battlefield.
In contrast, the PDF on many worlds may be a professional military as well, with soldiers who have years of experience fighting in local feuds between the planetary nobility, or defending their home against raids from pirates and alien forces.
There's too much overlap between the two forces to say that either one will always be better than the other, and I think the PDF has an unjust reputation for being losers. The 5E Guard Codex even specifically addresses this perception and declares it false. It's just like people think the lasgun sucks, just because it is the "weakest" weapon in the TT - nevermind that it is still quite powerful!
Some IG regiments consist of nothing but inexperienced recruits conscripted from rural farms or out of a prison complex. Some PDF are a standing force of superbly equipped and drilled troops with years of combat experience. And if the Imperial Guard is lucky, they sometimes get to recruit from these so they get to raise the better IG regiments. The Mordian Iron Guard wouldn't be so famed without the training these soldiers receive on their own homeworld - and let's not even talk about Cadia's Youth Armies.
ClockworkZion wrote:It is a long list of requirements but in a selection pool as large as the Imperium are you honestly trying to say it'd be hard to find people wo fit the qualifications?
Frankly, yes. The "from infancy" bit alone likely cuts out 99% of all candidates that would even have a chance at fulfilling the other requirements. It requires the Ecclesiarchy to "take possession" of the orphan as a newborn, which would mean that it'd likely require voluntary surrender on part of the parents (who also need to be Imperial officials, rather than anyone) instead of just taking a kid that has already been raised normally for a few years when the parents die. The latter can still join the Schola as a progena, but they won't be eligible for Sororitas recruitment.
It's also worth to reiterate that the vast majority of progena end up as civilian scribes in the Administratum. Only a small part are deemed good enough to earn a transfer into the military to become Navy NCOs, Segmentum Command staff members or even Adeptus Arbites and Commissars. Even fewer are the ones who would become Storm Troopers or members of one of the Orders of the Adepta Sororitas, and even then it need not be a Battle Sister.
I'd still say that the political considerations are the primary reason, though, else they'd just drop the requirements a bit to extend their numbers (as was possibly the case during the first years of the Sisterhood, given the discrepancy in the jump from 4k to 10k in the first couple years, compared to how it took them 2.500 years to go from 10k to 30k). But at least these political considerations "allow" the Sororitas to take only the best of the best, in turn increasing the efficiency of the organisation.
ClockworkZion wrote:And seeing as the fluff of the Sisters puts them as barely being in their home sites due to hard far and wide their spread I fail to see an issue with the housing.
That depends on the timing. Right now, with Armageddon 3 and the Black Crusade in full swing, the Major Orders have their hands full, but obviously this wasn't always the case. It is also noteworthy that the Major Orders have been said to sometimes cap out at 7.000 warriors - which obviously would only work if most of them are not at home, or the other Orders have suffered sufficient casualties to "make room".
Still, until the Convent buildings are extended again like it was done once before, I don't see how you could squeeze another Major Order in there.
ClockworkZion wrote:You mean the same Conclave that vanished from the codex materials in 5th, and originally only existed as a way to justify C:WH in the first place?
Yep. Until it gets actually "retconned", this connection is still there.
ClockworkZion wrote:That said, you glossed over my points about the scale of the Imperium and how illogical it is for us to have numbers THAT small.
I don't see how I could address that - I could just as well say you glossed over my point as to why they'd have to be that large just because the Imperium is that large.
I guess we just disagree regarding whether or not they need to be everywhere where there's an Ecclesiarchy presence, which I just don't see in the fluff. Of course IF they'd truly have to be anywhere where the Ecclesiarchy is, THEN size begins to matter. Before that point, not at all.
Also, sorry for the "quote war". At least it's an interesting topic!
ClockworkZion wrote:5th Ed Vanguard Vets fluff talks about their prowess and ability to kill large numbers of enemies even when minimally equipped.
I'd wager that's referring to boltguns rather than knives, though. But I am also still going by GW's fluff about the chance of las weapons to injure Marines.
I'm pretty sure it's a combat knife. I'll look at my copy of the codex when I get home.
ClockworkZion wrote:i'm not saying that the Frateris Militia can't be around anymore, but it Seems that the focus is less on them and more in the Sisters who seem to have picked up some of those duties.
And those two pages of fluff managed to do a nice job of dropping the Inquisitorial ties, something we take as pretty canon.
The Inquisitorial ties are a good example, actually. The two pages of fluff in the SoB section of the rulebook don't mention anything about the Ordo Hereticus, yet the Inquisition textbox in the Imperium organisation section still refers to it.
And I now have a feeling I might be able to find something about the Frateris Militia in the pages about the Ecclesiarchy, too, which has its own section in the BRB. Will confirm after I get home.
Well if you find something let me know so I can read it, because it may have fallen out of my brain!
ClockworkZion wrote:The Reign of Blood involved Vandire also taking over the Administranium which gave him control over far more than just preachers and priests.
That's a point in my favour, actually. I wasn't referring to Vandire's armies of Frateris Templars and Imperial Guard, but to Sebastian Thor's "Confederacy of Light" - that crusade of the common people that started on Dimmamar and then carved a path right unto Terra, in spite of Vandire's control.
Sure, you could argue how it picked up elements of PDF on the way from governors swayed by Thor and his followers, but this is no different from an Ecclesiarchal War of Faith being unofficially joined by Imperial Guard and Navy units because of the influence the Confessors have over the faithful.
It's less a point in your favor when we consider that he had to get his buddies in the Assassins to do his dirty work. He had power and friends and not everything was done by those old men.
And that Crusade of Light was probably the largest riot you'll ever see outside of a Waaaaagh. It was far more massive and encompassing than the Frateris Militia ever is.
ClockworkZion wrote:There is a limit to what we can dig up though as a lot of stuff has vanished in the last 20+ years.
Unfortunately. I'm still trying to hunt down anything I can get my greedy fingers on and managed to acquire some really old issues of White Dwarf, but I still feel like I'm missing stuff ...
Still, props for having the Liber Sororitas and the old Codices! That's more than most.
I don't have the original Liber Sororitas sadly though, just a WD I managed to track down online. I haven't been able to find either Astronomicon compilations yet.
ClockworkZion wrote:i'll have to look at the rule book again, but I think it says the 6 major militant orders have tens of thousands.
"The Adepta Sororitas are divided into several major Orders Militant, the fighting strength of each numbering several thousand warriors. There are also many lesser Sisterhoods comprised of around a hundred Battle Sisters." - 6E Rulebook p.195
You sure you don't have the "tens of thousands" from a Lexicanum article? Because just a week ago someone else fell into the same trap (that's how I can whip up the quote so fast ).
I might be, it was late, and I was tired. Regardless I see the number as too small. This is the same Imperium that can throw a thousand guard effortlessly at a single hill or bunker but can't get more than 100k nuns? I call BS. Or at least a bad sense of scale by the authors.
ClockworkZion wrote:And the Guard get training once they join. They train, and fight. If they live they might get leave too. They are no longer butchers or bakers or anything else, just Soldiers. And it's that distinction that makes them better than the PDF: they can focus on just being a soldier.
This is almost a topic for itself, but:
Guard get training once they join, yes. Maybe they've had some before, but it's not guaranteed. The training they get once they join depends entirely on the time it takes their transport to arrive at the battlefield.
In contrast, the PDF on many worlds may be a professional military as well, with soldiers who have years of experience fighting in local feuds between the planetary nobility, or defending their home against raids from pirates and alien forces.
There's too much overlap between the two forces to say that either one will always be better than the other, and I think the PDF has an unjust reputation for being losers. The 5E Guard Codex even specifically addresses this perception and declares it false. It's just like people think the lasgun sucks, just because it is the "weakest" weapon in the TT - nevermind that it is still quite powerful!
Some IG regiments consist of nothing but inexperienced recruits conscripted from rural farms or out of a prison complex. Some PDF are a standing force of superbly equipped and drilled troops with years of combat experience. And if the Imperial Guard is lucky, they sometimes get to recruit from these so they get to raise the better IG regiments. The Mordian Iron Guard wouldn't be so famed without the training these soldiers receive on their own homeworld - and let's not even talk about Cadia's Youth Armies.
Fair enough. The PDF still is a worse military force than the guard because they're only "soldiers" while training (occasionally) or when something happens. That's a lot less time spent honing the skills and mindset of a successful soldier.
ClockworkZion wrote:It is a long list of requirements but in a selection pool as large as the Imperium are you honestly trying to say it'd be hard to find people wo fit the qualifications?
Frankly, yes. The "from infancy" bit alone likely cuts out 99% of all candidates that would even have a chance at fulfilling the other requirements. It requires the Ecclesiarchy to "take possession" of the orphan as a newborn, which would mean that it'd likely require voluntary surrender on part of the parents (who also need to be Imperial officials, rather than anyone) instead of just taking a kid that has already been raised normally for a few years when the parents die. The latter can still join the Schola as a progena, but they won't be eligible for Sororitas recruitment.
It's also worth to reiterate that the vast majority of progena end up as civilian scribes in the Administratum. Only a small part are deemed good enough to earn a transfer into the military to become Navy NCOs, Segmentum Command staff members or even Adeptus Arbites and Commissars. Even fewer are the ones who would become Storm Troopers or members of one of the Orders of the Adepta Sororitas, and even then it need not be a Battle Sister.
I'd still say that the political considerations are the primary reason, though, else they'd just drop the requirements a bit to extend their numbers (as was possibly the case during the first years of the Sisterhood, given the discrepancy in the jump from 4k to 10k in the first couple years, compared to how it took them 2.500 years to go from 10k to 30k). But at least these political considerations "allow" the Sororitas to take only the best of the best, in turn increasing the efficiency of the organisation.
Taking my 6 quadrillion number earlier and taking 99% away still leaves us with 60,000,000,000,000 individuals. That's 60 TRILLION for anyone who doesn't recognize a number that long.
So yeah, STILL not enough. I can run the same math later for you with a single Quadrillion if you like. The thing is that a 100k is just too low for the setting.
ClockworkZion wrote:And seeing as the fluff of the Sisters puts them as barely being in their home sites due to hard far and wide their spread I fail to see an issue with the housing.
That depends on the timing. Right now, with Armageddon 3 and the Black Crusade in full swing, the Major Orders have their hands full, but obviously this wasn't always the case. It is also noteworthy that the Major Orders have been said to sometimes cap out at 7.000 warriors - which obviously would only work if most of them are not at home, or the other Orders have suffered sufficient casualties to "make room".
Still, until the Convent buildings are extended again like it was done once before, I don't see how you could squeeze another Major Order in there.
We also need to account for the fact that these orders have "headquarters" of sorts all over the galaxy so it's easy to say the Convent as having a cap while they subdivide the order out so never more than a certain amount are ever "home".
ClockworkZion wrote:You mean the same Conclave that vanished from the codex materials in 5th, and originally only existed as a way to justify C:WH in the first place?
Yep. Until it gets actually "retconned", this connection is still there.
Fair enough. It just got left out of our actual codex is all.
ClockworkZion wrote:That said, you glossed over my points about the scale of the Imperium and how illogical it is for us to have numbers THAT small.
I don't see how I could address that - I could just as well say you glossed over my point as to why they'd have to be that large just because the Imperium is that large.
I guess we just disagree regarding whether or not they need to be everywhere where there's an Ecclesiarchy presence, which I just don't see in the fluff. Of course IF they'd truly have to be anywhere where the Ecclesiarchy is, THEN size begins to matter. Before that point, not at all.
Also, sorry for the "quote war". At least it's an interesting topic!
The way I read the fluff it suggests that they are the Ecclesiarchy's constant shadow, going everywhere the church does, hence why I find their numbers too small to really fit the vastness of the setting.
Lynata wrote: And for their capabilities, Codex Imperialis mentioned the primary Convents have their own fleets, and the CJ article mentioned the Orders even keeping drop pods in storage
You may have fluffed me to death on the number of Minor Orders, but I'm blown away by the rules for the Drop Pod -- where are they from?
Thing is... there's simply not a minimum of one Sister per holy site. There *are* holy sites with just one Sister at them, and others with much more, but there are many that don't have any at all.
Also, remember, that not every world in the Imperium is going to have a "holy site". A Mechanicus Forge World certainly isn't. Some Paradise World owned by the Inquisition or the Administratum isn't. An Administratum World given over to housing continents full of old paperwork certainly isn't. The Homeworlds of any Space Marine Chapter almost certainly isn't (and that's a thousand or more worlds right there). Some airless rock that is being mined for raw materials by a private mining company isn't.
There's a whole lot of ways to whittle down that number of "one million worlds" to something in the thousands, or even fewer, and we have seen in sources that the Sisters simply aren't on every Shrine World or holy site.
ClockworkZion wrote:Well if you find something let me know so I can read it, because it may have fallen out of my brain!
Alright, had a quick glance through the pages, and indeed there is nothing I would deem "explicit" regarding the Frateris Militia. However, page 159 of the Ecclesiarchy description says the Sisters of Battle are the spearhead of a War of Faith - which to me means that there is still more to it than them.
Anecdotal evidence once more. But then again, I'm against discarding any Pre-6E fluff that is not contradicted by other GW material, anyways.
ClockworkZion wrote:It's less a point in your favor when we consider that he had to get his buddies in the Assassins to do his dirty work. He had power and friends and not everything was done by those old men.
I think there's a misunderstanding here. I am not talking about Vandire's assassins or armies at all, but Thor's militias.
ClockworkZion wrote:And that Crusade of Light was probably the largest riot you'll ever see outside of a Waaaaagh. It was far more massive and encompassing than the Frateris Militia ever is.
The Frateris Militia is not a single organisation, but merely a catchall term for the frenzied mobs raised by the clergy - as such, they can be as small as a dozen zealots, or as big as millions of agitated faithful. And even Sebastian Thor had to start somewhere - he didn't snap a finger and summoned billions of people from several worlds to do his bidding; his following grew over time, with every planet he visited.
ClockworkZion wrote:At least one Sister per holy site......just saying that the numbers are too low at a 100K or less.
I just can't agree with that assessment - call it stubbornness and a personal preference for the numbers provided. Extended protection, yes. Responsibility. But continuous physical presence? That's just not what I "grew up" with, as far as SoB fluff is concerned.
"Every major world in the Imperium belongs to one of the Cardinal Dioceses, and will therefore host at least one Ecclesiarchal cathedral and a multitude of servants, dignitaries and clerics. Such a concentration of the Ecclesiarchy's power must be defended, and so a significant force of battle sisters will be present at many such sites."[/i]
- 3E C:WH
---> Every major world, with the Battle Sisters being present on many of them. This leaves a lot of room for speculation.
ClockworkZion wrote:This is the same Imperium that can throw a thousand guard effortlessly at a single hill or bunker but can't get more than 100k nuns? I call BS. Or at least a bad sense of scale by the authors.
This is also the same Imperium that "can't get more than a million Space Marines".
As I said, it may not be ability, but rather unwillingness of the powers-that-be.
ClockworkZion wrote:Taking my 6 quadrillion number earlier and taking 99% away still leaves us with 60,000,000,000,000 individuals. That's 60 TRILLION for anyone who doesn't recognize a number that long.
Even then you'd still need these 6 quadrillion people to be orphans born from Imperial officials (officers and adepts) who have perfectly pure genetics and manage to not only graduate from the Schola, but graduate with top marks. Oh, and they must all be girls.
Are you sure those numbers sound realistic? It's a pretty exclusive combination of prerequisites...
"The Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant have many strengths. They are recruited from the fastest, strongest and most adept individuals to be raised in the Schola Progenium. Their training is total, honed across the millennia to ensure that every Battle Sister is more than a match for almost any foe. Their weapons and armour are amongst the best the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce. These factors alone would make the Battle Sisters a mighty weapon in the Emperor's arsenal, but that is not all.
The Battle Sisters are utterly dedicated to the Emperor. Their one purpose is to strive for His honour and glory and to protect the Imperium from all threats. The faith of the Adepta Sororitas is unswerving, they are raised from birth to believe the Emperor is the only hope for humanity. Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure; there is only prayer and war. There is nothing an enemy could offer them, they are impossible to bribe and totally incorruptible.
The Battle Sisters are one of the few bastions standing between humanity and extinction. The Sororitas must defeat alien dominance, rogue psykers, daemonic influence, heretics, blasphemers and apostates, or everything the Emperor has striven to build and protect will be lost." - WD #211
(Troike: was this the quote you were looking for? *keeps trying!* )
SisterSydney wrote:You may have fluffed me to death on the number of Minor Orders, but I'm blown away by the rules for the Drop Pod -- where are they from?
Citadel Journal #49 - it had rules for an Ordo Hereticus Strike Force, an army list written by Andy Hoare about an Inquisitor leading a force of Battle Sisters against an excommunicated Space Marine Chapter (similar to the fluff in the "Renegade Space Marines" Index Astartes article in WD #303), focused entirely on deep-striking the enemy HQ. It also features some cool details about an "Inner Circle of the Daughters of the Emperor" - a secretive group of senior members from each of the six Major Orders Militant. To be fair, the background also makes it clear that they only get out this gear when things get really tough; it's certainly not a standard op.
The army list also does not have the Chapter Approved stamp, so I think it wasn't Tournament-legal. Citadel Journal often featured experimental rules; where White Dwarf is the general hobby gamer magazine, CJ was pretty much the expert's journal. For example, CJ #49 also had experimental rules to field Saint Praxedes with the Witch Hunter Codex, and it even had a sort of "Proto-Repentia" akin to Sister Anastasia (that is, seeking penance and absolution alone, rather than in a squad led by a mistress). Totally badass: the Repentia had a rule where she could join any squad, and when the squad was assaulted by an enemy she'd allow her allies to pull back and remain behind alone, binding the entire enemy squad in melee. If she actually managed to survive that, she'd get the "Absolution" trait, whereupon she'd generate a single Faith Point, and any squad she rejoins after this event instantly becomes Faithful because they'd all be like: "OH GAK did you see that?! Miracle! Miracle!" Bonus: This type of Repentia could be added not only to a Sisters list, but to any Imperial Guard and Space Marine army, because in their quest for absolution they'd wander and attach themselves to the first Imperial crusade they come across.
The article even featured a rather cool piece of fluff - a report from a Guardsman's confession for his court martial due to cowardice, where he'd tell the interviewing Commissar how a Repentia saved his life on the battlefield.
Psienesis wrote: Thing is... there's simply not a minimum of one Sister per holy site. There *are* holy sites with just one Sister at them, and others with much more, but there are many that don't have any at all.
Oh I know, but I was making a point that even at 1 per it still takes a lot of Sisters.
Psienesis wrote: Also, remember, that not every world in the Imperium is going to have a "holy site". A Mechanicus Forge World certainly isn't. Some Paradise World owned by the Inquisition or the Administratum isn't. An Administratum World given over to housing continents full of old paperwork certainly isn't. The Homeworlds of any Space Marine Chapter almost certainly isn't (and that's a thousand or more worlds right there). Some airless rock that is being mined for raw materials by a private mining company isn't.
Actually I'd say the more "civilized" the planet the more likely the Ecclesiarchy will be there. Afterall the Imperial Cult is the official religion of the Imperium and to refuse to allow it on your planet is likely to be met with suspicion and distrust (unless you're Space Marines because apparently they're above such things despite proving that they can fall to Chaos all the damned time). I imagine that supporting the Ecclesiarchy tends to be political shorthand for "I'm trustworthy, honest!" Besides, anywhere there are teeming masses there is a place for the Ecclesiarchy. There is fluff that says that some of the Ad Mech see the Emperor as the same being as the Omnissiah (others see them as separate entities) which is a valid interpretation of the Imperial Creed last time I checked. And those serfs need somewhere to pray and worship when not working.
And let's not forget (since we keep bringing books into this) that we've got at least one book with the Ecclesiarchy on an Administratum world. If I'm recalling correctly one of the Eisenhorn books involves an Administratum world that features the use of churches (and corruption there-in).
As for the less civilized worlds....well there are Sororitas for that too.
Psienesis wrote: There's a whole lot of ways to whittle down that number of "one million worlds" to something in the thousands, or even fewer, and we have seen in sources that the Sisters simply aren't on every Shrine World or holy site.
And just as many ways we can whittle the number down we can offer instances that would boost that number. Honestly even if we go as low as 500,000 worlds with some kind of Ecclesiarchy presence the number of Sisters is too low to fufill the duties listed in the 6th Edition rulebook, which being the most recent information we got makes it the most accurate on what the devs are trying to do with the Sisters, and that puts a minimum of 1 per site, if not more.
We can always chalk this up to no one managing to get an official count if you'd like (ala Black Templars).
ClockworkZion wrote:And let's not forget (since we keep bringing books into this) that we've got at least one book with the Ecclesiarchy on an Administratum world. If I'm recalling correctly one of the Eisenhorn books involves an Administratum world that features the use of churches (and corruption there-in).
I don't like bringing novels into this - but we don't have to. An interesting addition to the Space Marine fluff with the new 6E Codex was that there is apparently a Shrine world in Ultramar now.
Makes me really want to know more about the relationship between the Ultras and the Ecclesiarchy...
ClockworkZion wrote:Well if you find something let me know so I can read it, because it may have fallen out of my brain!
Alright, had a quick glance through the pages, and indeed there is nothing I would deem "explicit" regarding the Frateris Militia. However, page 159 of the Ecclesiarchy description says the Sisters of Battle are the spearhead of a War of Faith - which to me means that there is still more to it than them.
Anecdotal evidence once more. But then again, I'm against discarding any Pre-6E fluff that is not contradicted by other GW material, anyways.
Oh I understand, I just think the Frateris Militia is only being used as a true militia at most based on what we have. However, neither of us really have anything that proves either it seems.
ClockworkZion wrote:It's less a point in your favor when we consider that he had to get his buddies in the Assassins to do his dirty work. He had power and friends and not everything was done by those old men.
I think there's a misunderstanding here. I am not talking about Vandire's assassins or armies at all, but Thor's militias.
You replied to the Reign of Blood bit as a point in your favor, hence my response.
ClockworkZion wrote:And that Crusade of Light was probably the largest riot you'll ever see outside of a Waaaaagh. It was far more massive and encompassing than the Frateris Militia ever is.
The Frateris Militia is not a single organisation, but merely a catchall term for the frenzied mobs raised by the clergy - as such, they can be as small as a dozen zealots, or as big as millions of agitated faithful. And even Sebastian Thor had to start somewhere - he didn't snap a finger and summoned billions of people from several worlds to do his bidding; his following grew over time, with every planet he visited.
Oh, I get that, I was just saying that I wouldn't really call it the Frateris Militia as much as a massive, barely controlled riot across the galaxy. Much like a Waaagh.
Thor comes across as a very level headed and cool character who didn't whip people into a frenzy but spoke and preached calmly and openly. He just managed to know what to say to have the repercussions that lead to such a massive riot. But that's just my reading of him.
ClockworkZion wrote:At least one Sister per holy site......just saying that the numbers are too low at a 100K or less.
I just can't agree with that assessment - call it stubbornness and a personal preference for the numbers provided. Extended protection, yes. Responsibility. But continuous physical presence? That's just not what I "grew up" with, as far as SoB fluff is concerned.
"Every major world in the Imperium belongs to one of the Cardinal Dioceses, and will therefore host at least one Ecclesiarchal cathedral and a multitude of servants, dignitaries and clerics. Such a concentration of the Ecclesiarchy's power must be defended, and so a significant force of battle sisters will be present at many such sites."[/i]
- 3E C:WH
---> Every major world, with the Battle Sisters being present on many of them. This leaves a lot of room for speculation.
I didn't grow up with any of this so that might be why I'm more open to it changing.
That said, I think GW needs to go and tack 3 more 0's on the end of any number they give because it never really fits with what they're trying to say.
ClockworkZion wrote:This is the same Imperium that can throw a thousand guard effortlessly at a single hill or bunker but can't get more than 100k nuns? I call BS. Or at least a bad sense of scale by the authors.
This is also the same Imperium that "can't get more than a million Space Marines".
As I said, it may not be ability, but rather unwillingness of the powers-that-be.
I'll accept that the powers that be are the ones stopping it when GW comes out and says so.
ClockworkZion wrote:Taking my 6 quadrillion number earlier and taking 99% away still leaves us with 60,000,000,000,000 individuals. That's 60 TRILLION for anyone who doesn't recognize a number that long.
Even then you'd still need these 6 quadrillion people to be orphans born from Imperial officials (officers and adepts) who have perfectly pure genetics and manage to not only graduate from the Schola, but graduate with top marks. Oh, and they must all be girls.
Are you sure those numbers sound realistic? It's a pretty exclusive combination of prerequisites...
Okay, so we'll say at least half (maybe a little more or a little less) of that number I gave are girls. That's ~30,000,000,000,000. Considering the Imperium we'll say maybe 5% of that number meets the criteria. That's 1,500,000,000,000 (1.5 Trillion) individuals.
The problem really comes down to the fact that the scale of the Imperium is so friggin' big that you need to start dealing with percentages like .00001 to start seeing numbers low enough to match the numbers we've been given thus far.
Oh, and as for the Orphan thing we've got an established incident where the daughter of a Rogue Trader ran away from home (so to speak) and joined a covenant of Sisters to become one. So there is precedence for women to become them in other ways it seems (it's from the first Arbites novel).
ClockworkZion wrote:And let's not forget (since we keep bringing books into this) that we've got at least one book with the Ecclesiarchy on an Administratum world. If I'm recalling correctly one of the Eisenhorn books involves an Administratum world that features the use of churches (and corruption there-in).
I don't like bringing novels into this - but we don't have to. An interesting addition to the Space Marine fluff with the new 6E Codex was that there is apparently a Shrine world in Ultramar now.
Makes me really want to know more about the relationship between the Ultras and the Ecclesiarchy...
We're dragging in everything else under the sun and BL has been officially stated as just as canon as every other source, so I didn't see why not to bring novels into it.
Lynata wrote: "The Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant have many strengths. They are recruited from the fastest, strongest and most adept individuals to be raised in the Schola Progenium. Their training is total, honed across the millennia to ensure that every Battle Sister is more than a match for almost any foe. Their weapons and armour are amongst the best the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce. These factors alone would make the Battle Sisters a mighty weapon in the Emperor's arsenal, but that is not all.
The Battle Sisters are utterly dedicated to the Emperor. Their one purpose is to strive for His honour and glory and to protect the Imperium from all threats. The faith of the Adepta Sororitas is unswerving, they are raised from birth to believe the Emperor is the only hope for humanity. Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure; there is only prayer and war. There is nothing an enemy could offer them, they are impossible to bribe and totally incorruptible.
The Battle Sisters are one of the few bastions standing between humanity and extinction. The Sororitas must defeat alien dominance, rogue psykers, daemonic influence, heretics, blasphemers and apostates, or everything the Emperor has striven to build and protect will be lost." - WD #211
(Troike: was this the quote you were looking for? *keeps trying!* )
Nope, sorry. Though it is, again, still excellent for showing the SoB mindset.
I saw it posted on /tg/, it looked like a screencap of a codex, but I'm not sure. Hopefully I'll come across it on there again someday, and can ask the person where it's from.
ClockworkZion wrote: and BL has been officially stated as just as canon as every other source
Then where were the backflipping Terminators in the 6e Marines Codex?
Lynata wrote: "The Battle Sisters of the Orders Militant have many strengths. They are recruited from the fastest, strongest and most adept individuals to be raised in the Schola Progenium. Their training is total, honed across the millennia to ensure that every Battle Sister is more than a match for almost any foe. Their weapons and armour are amongst the best the Adeptus Mechanicus can produce. These factors alone would make the Battle Sisters a mighty weapon in the Emperor's arsenal, but that is not all.
The Battle Sisters are utterly dedicated to the Emperor. Their one purpose is to strive for His honour and glory and to protect the Imperium from all threats. The faith of the Adepta Sororitas is unswerving, they are raised from birth to believe the Emperor is the only hope for humanity. Their pious, rigid way of life allows the Battle Sisters no room for pleasure; there is only prayer and war. There is nothing an enemy could offer them, they are impossible to bribe and totally incorruptible.
The Battle Sisters are one of the few bastions standing between humanity and extinction. The Sororitas must defeat alien dominance, rogue psykers, daemonic influence, heretics, blasphemers and apostates, or everything the Emperor has striven to build and protect will be lost." - WD #211
(Troike: was this the quote you were looking for? *keeps trying!* )
Nope, sorry. Though it is, again, still excellent for showing the SoB mindset.
I saw it posted on /tg/, it looked like a screencap of a codex, but I'm not sure. Hopefully I'll come across it on there again someday, and can ask the person where it's from.
ClockworkZion wrote: and BL has been officially stated as just as canon as every other source
Then where were the backflipping Terminators in the 6e Marines Codex?
Why? Are those years and years of hard indoctrination meaningless? And again, I'd like to point to who has the better track record at resisting Chaotic corruption. It seems that the Sororitas are the hardest to break from their mold.
Resisting chaos and having a broad range of behaviors are totally different things. Years of hard indoctrination are great at accomplishing many things, but they don't create robots either. There's a difference between "Don't worship demons because they are creatures of pure evil who want to devour your soul" and "Do not get curious and try a beer because beer is a distraction from your duties". If half of a percent of SoB are able to decide they can do their duties just fine and still have some wine now and then, you'd have some 5,000 Sisters (using the controversially low 100,000 SoB in the universe baseline) willing to have a drink now and then. I'm not even claiming the number is that high, but I would certainly be surprised if NO SoB allowed distractions to slip into their lives and thoughts.
See, this is the problem you're having. You're still thinking of the Sisters as normal humans, and thinking that the post-human status of the Astartes makes them automatically less expressive and emotive.
Yes, that is correct. At least, fluff indicates that the Astartes are both modified to experience limited emotions and are all fairly close genetically and behaviorally.
Okay, and how does Chaotic corruption work? It latches onto those things, yes? And who has the better track record at resisting Chaos?
I don't think chaos functions by latching onto healthy emotional states, it latches onto denied, twisted and confused emotional states. I think the Sisters are trained from birth to recognize and avoid the temptations of chaos, and are very good at avoiding it. I certainly think some portion are capable of interacting normally with the world without falling to chaos. If Joe the Imperial plumber can drink and lust without falling to Slaanesh, I am sure a Sister Superior could manage it.
And the SoB have had a black sheep of sorts, Sister Miriya, form the James Swallow books. However, whilst she was something of a maverick, willing to go against orders, it was still all in the service of her dogmas. She still had the Sororitas mindset, being disapproving of things considered "deviant". Her every major action was still in service to the Emperor, not herself. I think that she is a far more accurate depcition of what a Sororitas "black sheep" would look like.
I'm not sure it is entirely clear what Sisters view as deviant and what they view as simply a distraction, or beneath them. Catholic imagery aside, they are not Catholics. Sister Miriya goes against direct orders, makes moves against the Church itself, and makes numerous breaks with the chain of command that a militaristic sect of fanatics might find far more meaningfully treacherous and deviant than drinking to excess.
Holloman wrote:Nothing about drinking, fighting and carousing makes Space Wolves fundamentally more human - they just share a few behaviors with normal humans.
I'm fairly sure you just contradicted yourself here
I don't think so. Orks spend all their time drinking, carousing and fighting too, but that does not make them human in any meaningful sense. Nor is my cat human because he likes to bathe. Space Wolves fight and drink because it is their nature to fight and drink, passed down by the carefully protected genes of their Primarch and the history of their people. If a Space Wolf joined a monastic order and dedicated his life to humble appreciation of art history, that would indicate a surprising degree of human flexibility for a Space Wolf. Chugging a tankard of beer and slugging someone is just an SW doing an innate thing some normal humans also do.
Hollowman wrote:Marines gave a more constrained set of reactions - they don't respond the way humans do to a variety of things according to GW. The Sisters have a superior range of behavior and are more adaptable than the astartes
Not according to GW.
Not according to the fluff I have read on Space marines.
Hollowman wrote:It would be a lot more accurate to say internal forces curbed the success of such measures - we are terrible subjects for such things.
I disagree - I think we are terrible subjects due to our "vulnerability" to outside influence. This is almost a sociopolitical topic that may have less to do with what we're talking about, though, as much as I think it might be interesting for a thread or PM discussion on its own.
Well, how good we are as subjects I suppose depends on what we have for comparison - we are better than cats but worse than dogs, which isn't saying all that much in the scheme of things. There are very clear limits to how far we can be pulled from our basic set point, however. But yeah, that is a whole other topic.
I think the moral of the story is that some people like to play a "happy medium" human army between the Elite Space Marines, and Horde Imperial Guard.
That is the Sisters. The army has the ability to be supported by the wonderful 3+ that is power armor, but has a different play style than Space Marines, and also tends to be more unique-looking to play against than the armored supermen that show up on what seems like every 40K gaming table you come across, sometimes on both sides.
The other benefit is that they are another Imperial faction that doesn't look odd fighting other Imperial factions, for fluff reasons.
It's the same reasoning as "Why should GW have Dark Eldar, there's already an Eldar army to play". Because variety.
Hollowman wrote: Resisting chaos and having a broad range of behaviors are totally different things. Years of hard indoctrination are great at accomplishing many things, but they don't create robots either. There's a difference between "Don't worship demons because they are creatures of pure evil who want to devour your soul" and "Do not get curious and try a beer because beer is a distraction from your duties". If half of a percent of SoB are able to decide they can do their duties just fine and still have some wine now and then, you'd have some 5,000 Sisters (using the controversially low 100,000 SoB in the universe baseline) willing to have a drink now and then. I'm not even claiming the number is that high, but I would certainly be surprised if NO SoB allowed distractions to slip into their lives and thoughts.
Eh, can't say I agree. If a person believes in their cause enough to resist a Nurgle plague, deprives themselves of all worldly pleasures to pray and train every day, and will gladly volunteer themselves to go charge at their enemies wearing only rags if they think they've failed in any way, are they really going to falter at being offered a pint? Not to mention the quote above specifuically saying that their lives leave no room for pleasure, which itself goes against that Cain Sister.
Hollowman wrote: fluff indicates that the Astartes are both modified to experience limited emotions and are all fairly close genetically and behaviorally.
I'd disagree with that, actually. In the fluff we have: The joval, rowdy Space Wolves (Lukas being a major example) the haughty, arrogant Marines Malevolent, the stoic Iron Hands, the bloodthirsty Flesh Tearers... The chapters of the Astartes do exhibit a wide range of temperments and personalities.
Hollowman wrote: I don't think chaos functions by latching onto healthy emotional states, it latches onto denied, twisted and confused emotional states.
It can be more or less any emotional state, really. All four gods together cover a very wide range of emotions. The Sisters have faced them all, but Chaos is always hard-pressed to find an opening past all of that indoctrination.
Hollowman wrote: I certainly think some portion are capable of interacting normally with the world without falling to chaos.
Veering into a whole other topic, but still interesting enough to mention. I'm not sure that they would. Note the extreme isolation of the Sisters. They get indoctrinated in the Progenium, before being shipped of to an order to live in isolation and pray and train every day until there's a war. I think that they would interact okay with other Sisters or somebody suitably poius, but if they were to spend time with, say, some jaded Guardsmen, they would be probably be offended by their lack of piety, and would certainly find it hard to interact successfully.
Hollowman wrote: If Joe the Imperial plumber can drink and lust without falling to Slaanesh
Right, but Joe wouldn't be at risk if Chaos wasn't on his world. If some local Slaaneshi cultists were able to summon in some Daemons, Joe would be a Slaaneshi groupie in no time. Or possessed.
Hollowman wrote: I'm not sure it is entirely clear what Sisters view as deviant and what they view as simply a distraction, or beneath them.
Going off of the studio fluff Lynat posted ITT, basically everything that's not in service to the Emperor. I'd imagine that, givin the rigidity and zeal of the Orders Militant, they wouldn't make a whole lot of distinction between "deviant" and "simply a distraction". Anybody who broke from their rigid routines even slightly would likely be viewed as a deviant.
Hollowman wrote: Sister Miriya goes against direct orders, makes moves against the Church itself, and makes numerous breaks with the chain of command that a militaristic sect of fanatics might find far more meaningfully treacherous and deviant than drinking to excess.
The reason she was spared is that her Canoness likely saw that her intentions were good, and still very much in service to the Emperor. So, she got a demotion instead of a swift bolt to the head. Drinking, meanwhile, would certainly not be in service to the Emperor, but an act of pure slef-indulgence. And, in fairness, the local Ecclesiarchy did want Miriya killed instead.
So a friend and I sat down and decided to crunch some numbers. For the purposes of the exercise we lowballed most of these numbers to try and feel out a lower limit on things. The goal was to work out how many Sororitas there where.
To keep the numbers reasonably low we worked off the following rules:
1% of the entire Imperium meets the very basic criteria to be considered for becoming a Sororitas.
1% of those complete their "basic" training successfully
1% of those are on active status at any time (the other 99% have been deactivated for any number of reasons). This last one was to really just push the number a lot lower based on the "gak happens" quotient.
50% of the final total is Militant Orders, the rest is divided into the various Non-Militant Orders (which makes each of those smaller than the combined Militant Orders).
So running some basic numbers we figured that from the Hive Worlds (all 32,380 of them) had a rough average of 50,000,000,000 (we went with 50 Billion a Hive, which is about the middle of the range (10-100,000,000,000), and 10 Hive a planet, which is a bit lower than half as the range is 5-20) 16,190,000,000,000,000 people on the hives.
To keep the math easy we went with an average of 5 Billion people on average on every other planet in the Imperium (working from 1,000,000 that means 967,620 worlds) which is lower than our current population on Earth. That gave us another 4,838,100,000,000,000 more people.
This gave us a total of 21,028,100,000,000,000 people in the Imperium on a lowball math run.
Of these 210,281,000,000,000 meet the very basic criteria.
Of those 2,102,810,000,000 complete the basic training.
Of those 21,028,100,000 are on any kind of active duty.
Of those 10,514,050,000 are Battle Sisters.
So either the Sisters have some insanely high attrition rate that exceeds even the Imperial Guard, or they are HORRIBLY mismanaging potential resources if they only have 100k Sisters running around because from the numbers we ran they should have more people than we have on Earth RIGHT NOW.
And for the record, this is assuming that only 1 in a Million people have what it takes to be a Sister of Battle out of a Scholera. Still pretty damned elite sounding to me.
Wow. I always thought that the numbers sounded a little low, but that's something else. And that was with very conservative maths, apparently. Gah, now I'm really uneasy with the numbers, again.
As I've said, I wouldn't mind them getting retconned up in numbers next codex. But the established numbers are still right there in the rulebook, so I think it's something that GW is going to stick to. But, as always, I'm very interested to hear what a new codex would have to say about it. Maybe it'll surprise us?
Troike wrote: Wow. I always thought that the numbers sounded a little low, but that's something else. And that was with very conservative maths, apparently. Gah, now I'm really uneasy with the numbers, again.
As I've said, I wouldn't mind them getting retconned up in numbers next codex. But the established numbers are still right there in the rulebook, so I think it's something that GW is going to stick to. But, as always, I'm very interested to hear what a new codex would have to say about it. Maybe it'll surprise us?
Well I emailed it into GW and asked for it to be passed to the Dev team so who knows!
Frozen Ocean wrote:Nothing in particular. The setting is still too large! Also, there are plenty more Convents; just because those are the largest does not mean that they contain the bulk of their number.
Well, outside the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum, there's only the Minor Orders and their local obligations. The Minor Orders generally don't seem to partake in the larger wars, specifically because they are only around ~100 Sisters large each.
But yes, the Minor Orders are also the "unknown variable" where we don't know how many there are (unlike the six Major Orders). The only thing we know is that they don't show up very often in the fluff.
Still, you say "nothing in particular" - that I can't accept. The size of a setting alone is no grounds for the size of a force. Purpose, possibilities and limitations are. Otherwise that's just like saying "a country is this large, that means they must have X special forces".
And the Sisters of Battle are not meant to wage war in the truest fashion either - because that didn't turn out so well for the Imperium back in the Age of Apostasy.
Frozen Ocean wrote:Space Marines are similarly armed, if not better!
Not better as per GW's fluff - but similar, yes, and let us not forget all those vehicles, fliers and space ships. Much more than the Sororitas would have (imho).
The Ecclesiarchy has to juggle its budget, though. Whereas the Space Marines just shove everything they have into maintaining the Chapter, the Adeptus Ministorum also needs to maintain and build all those huge cathedrals we see. And a Sister of Battle, as powerful as they are, likely has a smaller life expectancy than a Space Marine. Dying easier also means a greater loss in expensive wargear.
Still, I admit this isn't the main reason I'd see for them to be a smaller force. Just one of several. The political considerations are probably more important?
[edit] Hey, what's with the edit?
lets not forget lifting the back ends of APC's out of the mud one handed, or being immune unarmored to small arms, or immune with armor to anything but heavy weaponry their enemies may field.
Marines aren't human. This is very highlighted with the church and the sisters not liking the marines, due to their alien bone structure, 5 hearts, 4 lungs, eating brains to get memories, belching acid, Inhuman height, the list goes on and on. Marines aren't human,
Likely? Marines may get white hair but they'll be far stronger than those neophytes due to having even more muscle and experience. Their muscles don't age at all ( I actually have to point this out to you, but that's how you die of old age) Their skin might but that's seems to be the only thing that does.
The average life time of a marine is about 80-100 years on the dot due to being KIA. I don't think sisters live that long.....
Wait! My capacity for rationalization has returned.
Let's go back to Lynata's amazing mastery of the background:
Lynata wrote: It's also worth pointing out that every single Novice Sister takes her vows on Terra itself, in a ceremony in presence of the Ecclesiarch, with only 499 other novices present. I just don't see this working out if there'd be millions of them that'd have to be shipped around like that.
First of all, we know the Imperium ships people in bulk to Terra all the time: That's what the Black Ships are for. Most of those guys don't survive to get shipped back out again, but the Imperium must also send fully Soul Bound astropathsoutbound from Earth all the time or else its entire communications network starts to collapse.
If they can do that for filthy psykers, they can do it for both Novices (inbound to Terra) and new Sisters (outbound). In fact, if I were commanding a Black Ship inbound or outbound, I'd be more than happy to give a free ride to some incorruptible, psyker-resistant, combat-trained young women, even if they're just Novices. And from the Sororitas perspective, this would just the kind of pilgrimage/ordeal to shape a young Sister. If the journey's too long, just pop the Sisters in stasis for most of the journey and unthaw them for crises (and wouldn't that be a nightmarish experience: go to sleep, wake up, shoot rioting psykers -- including kids -- in a hold that's gotten out of control, go to sleep, repeat).
So the Sisters can get to Ecclesiarch's palace and back. Maybe they do it for purely religious reasons, maybe to do their own, subtler equivalent of Soul Binding -- which raises the intriguing possibility that maybe Novices can't perform Acts of Faith yet.
Now we hit the (arbitrary) limit of 500 novices being initiated at a time. Okay, let's stipulate that, but how often does the Ecclesiarch do this? Once a year? Once a month? Once a week? Once a day? Think how often the Pope presides over a mass.
Let's give the Space Pope weekends off and two weeks' paid vacation per year. That leaves 250 working days (50 work weeks x 5 weekdays). Let's say he goes out on his balcony and accepts the loyalty of a new batch of 500 Novices every workday before breakfast.
Spoiler:
"More recaf, my son. No, more than that. Bloody hell, do we always have to initiate the Sisters so early?" "I'm sorry, Your Eminence, but yes, it's tradition. They've actually been standing vigil all night. Anyway, Your Holiness, after the Sororitas, you have a breakfast with the delegation from the Ordo Hereticus, at 9:15 the Chancellor will brief you on the revised tithe projections for next quarter..." "Bet you a tenner they're revising down again." "No bet, Your Holiness . Then at 10:30 you have a meeting with Cardinal Polonius...." "Oh, feth me. Again?" "I've allowed time in the schedule for him to run over."
250 ceremonies a year x 500 Novices per ceremony = 125,000 new Sisters a year.
Since the Sisterhood's numbers are steady, the recruitment rate has to equal the death & retirement rate. Given the Sororitas attitude towards martyrdom, let's conservatively assume the average Sister serves for ten years before being killed or disabled at around age 30. By average here I mean the mean; the median will likely be much lower: A minority of the toughest, luckiest Sisters will serve for decades, but most of the good die young.
That gives a steady state figure of 1,250,000 Sisters galaxywide.
Play with the figures a little bit -- fewer ceremonies per year, fewer novices per ceremony, or conversely a longer lifespan for Battle Sisters -- and you can get wildly different numbers. (A ceremony per week, minus two weeks off, with a 10-year average service life gives 50x250x10 = 125,000 Sisters galaxywide; 250 ceremonies a year as above with a 15-year service life gives you 1.875 million).
So I'm not saying this is how it has to be. The fluff passages about the Sisterhood being centralized on Terra and Ophelia suggests otherwise. But it shows the logistics of a million-plus Battle Sisters are trivial for the Imperium, even if the Ecclesiarch has to lay eyes on every single one of them.
P.S.: Clockwork's numbers are pretty terrifyingly huge. He probably overestimates a lot: 5 billion seems high for the average planet that's not a Hive World, and his Drake Equation doesn't seem to factor in that they have to be (1) orphans (2) whose parents died in the service of the Imperium. So let's assume he's overstating things by a factor of 1,000: Instead of his 10,514,050,000 Battle Sisters, you get a mere ten million.
I keep editing this to add jokes to the spoilered part, not to change my figures...
My 1% was me actually saying that at MOST 1% of the Imperium could meet the criteria of being a girl, and being the orphaned daughter of an officer and an adept. Considering the massive scale of deaths in the Imperium and the number of planets and the number of Scholeras it's not unreasonable to imagine such a large pool.
And as of 3rd Ed all Sisters are trained on Ophelia VII or Terra. I don't recall the oaths on Terra thing though.
To address another point, you do realize that Earth has over 7 Billion peple right? My average is assuming that all other Imperium owned planets of the million planets average less people than Earth does.
For more perspective here are some numbers that I could find on worlds that are not Hive Worlds:
So 5 Billion seemed like a good spread for a low average as this doesn't even count in a number of other planets (to include those who are Dead Worlds, War Worlds and Cementary Worlds).
EDIT: Additionally we intentionally went low on the Hive World numbers as they have anywhere from 5-20 Hives a planet with anything from 10-100 Billion a Hive (with a population that DOUBLES every 100 years) we went low and said 10 Hives with 50 Billion a Hive just to try and catch a low median (I know the mid-point between 5 and 20 isn't 10 but we were aiming a touch low on purpose) for 500 billion per Hive. That alone got us 16 Quintillion before we even added anyone else in, which is 10 Quintillion more than my original "low" estimate of 6 Quintillion some pages ago.
Automatically Appended Next Post: For another comparison tool, the number I gave is 0.00005% of the Imperium's total population that we worked off of. To make it easier to swallow if the US had the same percentage of Sisters to citizens that'd give the entire US 300 Battle Sisters, or 6 per state.
ClockworkZion wrote:Oh I understand, I just think the Frateris Militia is only being used as a true militia at most based on what we have.
Hmm? I'm sorry, here I don't understand what you mean.
ClockworkZion wrote:You replied to the Reign of Blood bit as a point in your favor, hence my response.
Yes, but that was because you mistakenly thought I'd refer to Vandire's forces when I mentioned Sebastian Thor and the Age of Apostasy, when I actually meant Vandire's enemies - that "bunch of zealous but untrained men" which were the origin and the core of the Confederacy of Light.
ClockworkZion wrote:Oh, and as for the Orphan thing we've got an established incident where the daughter of a Rogue Trader ran away from home (so to speak) and joined a covenant of Sisters to become one. So there is precedence for women to become them in other ways it seems (it's from the first Arbites novel). [...] We're dragging in everything else under the sun and BL has been officially stated as just as canon as every other source, so I didn't see why not to bring novels into it.
Because we can either discuss GW's material, or we'll have to settle for each of us preferring different and unconnected sources. Yes, everything is equally "canon" in that it is not canon at all. The different books were not written with the intention to create a single consistent setting, which is why they will often contradict each other. For example, that orphan thing you were referring to is in blatant conflict with Codex fluff explicitly stating that every single Battle Sister is raised in the Schola from infancy - no exceptions.
So we will have to decide which source we are discussing, but we cannot just go the Lexicanum route and throw everything into a pot and expect it to tie into each other. It (mostly) works within some novel series that were written by a team of authors, and it (mostly) works with the various codices and rulebooks that were written by the team of GW game designers. But once you throw books from different authors together, expect a contradiction, because different people have different ideas, and 40k's artistic licence lets everything be equally "optional".
Me, I'm discussing the Adepta Sororitas based on GW's own writings. I can't expect anyone else to view the Sisters in the same light, but similarly I cannot be expected to change GW's rather consistent portrayal of this faction just because some random freelancer put out another new novel that fails to depict the Sisters the way they are described in the Codices. *coughMitchellcough*
And as far as I'm concerned, the same goes for anything else in the setting. The Horus Heresy authors can keep touting their Primarchs as immortal until they're blue in the face - I'll just keep pointing to the 6E rulebook that explicitly states they were not.
Anyways, I dunno if you've already stumbled upon this, but here I have collected a few statements from various GW people and BL novel authors to describe the value of "canon" in 40k.
ClockworkZion wrote:To keep the numbers reasonably low we worked off the following rules:
1% of the entire Imperium meets the very basic criteria to be considered for becoming a Sororitas.
This right there is the first mistake. 1% of the entire population of the Imperium fulfills the basic criteria?
Every 50th(!) human female in the Imperium just happens to be the daughter of an Imperial official that was orphaned at birth and happens to be genetically pure?!
No. The Imperium doesn't even have that many officials, let alone pregnant ones who give up their kids at birth.
The way it looks to me, a lot of posters here are trying to justify vastly inflated numbers by any means possible - not by looking at the numbers and hints actually provided by GW, but by arbitrarily deciding there need to be billions of Sisters and then thinking "how do we make this happen?" and then beginning to construct supposed evidence around this basis. I think I'm much more happy with my position as the Devil's Advocate - at least it results in my interpretation actually being reflected in the material I read.
Hollowman wrote:I don't think so. Orks spend all their time drinking, carousing and fighting too, but that does not make them human in any meaningful sense.
Hollowman wrote:Marines gave a more constrained set of reactions - they don't respond the way humans do to a variety of things according to GW. The Sisters have a superior range of behavior and are more adaptable than the astartes
Not according to GW.
Not according to the fluff I have read on Space marines.
Your fluff on Space Marines included a line that Sisters have "a superior range of behavior"? Citation needed.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:lets not forget lifting the back ends of APC's out of the mud one handed, or being immune unarmored to small arms, or immune with armor to anything but heavy weaponry their enemies may field.
"Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium." - 2E C:AoD, Space Marine Power Armour
Perhaps they are immune unarmoured to small arms fire in FFG's movie-like Deathwatch RPG, or certain uberepic Black Library novels, but they are not immune in GW's tabletop, GW's Inquisitor RPG, or GW's Codex fluff.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Their muscles don't age at all
Citation needed.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:The average life time of a marine is about 80-100 years on the dot due to being KIA. I don't think sisters live that long.....
Canoness Carmina would seem to disagree.
Not that I'm suggesting she is the norm or average. Just an example for how old they can get at least. And this is a Canoness, so add another ~30 years for climbing up the ranks, and another ~17 for Schola upbringing and novitiate = circa 145 years.
SisterSydney wrote:250 ceremonies a year x 500 Novices per ceremony = 125,000 new Sisters a year.
That is if you think the Ecclesiarch has nothing to do but initiating novices all the time. Each ceremony lasts an entire night - I'd expect the poor man to get some sleep every now and then, and let's not even talk about Ecclesiarchal conclaves, Senatorum sessions, etc.
This is the Space Pope we're talking about. Personally, I'd expect him to be busier with ... y'know, Space Church stuff, than mass-processing new Space Nuns every day.
ClockworkZion wrote:Oh I understand, I just think the Frateris Militia is only being used as a true militia at most based on what we have.
Hmm? I'm sorry, here I don't understand what you mean.
Militias are defensive forces, reacting to emergencies and defending against invaders not being the main fighting faction in wars. But that's just my view on them.
ClockworkZion wrote:You replied to the Reign of Blood bit as a point in your favor, hence my response.
Yes, but that was because you mistakenly thought I'd refer to Vandire's forces when I mentioned Sebastian Thor and the Age of Apostasy, when I actually meant Vandire's enemies - that "bunch of zealous but untrained men" which were the origin and the core of the Confederacy of Light.
And whom Thor was telling to NOT be aggressive, rioting donkey-caves.
ClockworkZion wrote:Oh, and as for the Orphan thing we've got an established incident where the daughter of a Rogue Trader ran away from home (so to speak) and joined a covenant of Sisters to become one. So there is precedence for women to become them in other ways it seems (it's from the first Arbites novel). [...] We're dragging in everything else under the sun and BL has been officially stated as just as canon as every other source, so I didn't see why not to bring novels into it.
Because we can either discuss GW's material, or we'll have to settle for each of us preferring different and unconnected sources. Yes, everything is equally "canon" in that it is not canon at all. The different books were not written with the intention to create a single consistent setting, which is why they will often contradict each other. For example, that orphan thing you were referring to is in blatant conflict with Codex fluff explicitly stating that every single Battle Sister is raised in the Schola from infancy - no exceptions.
I get what you're claiming, but let's be honest there is a lot from the BL books we're shirking that we bring up all the time. The stuff from Hammer and Anvil for example. Either we count all references or none of them.
Lynata wrote: So we will have to decide which source we are discussing, but we cannot just go the Lexicanum route and throw everything into a pot and expect it to tie into each other. It (mostly) works within some novel series that were written by a team of authors, and it (mostly) works with the various codices and rulebooks that were written by the team of GW game designers. But once you throw books from different authors together, expect a contradiction, because different people have different ideas, and 40k's artistic licence lets everything be equally "optional".
It seems to be getting better, but even with contradictions we're dealing with an insanely huge Imperium and there is enough room for most of it to exist without contradictions really clashing.
Lynata wrote: Me, I'm discussing the Adepta Sororitas based on GW's own writings. I can't expect anyone else to view the Sisters in the same light, but similarly I cannot be expected to change GW's rather consistent portrayal of this faction just because some random freelancer put out another new novel that fails to depict the Sisters the way they are described in the Codices. *coughMitchellcough*
I hadn't even touched Mitchell's stuff because I haven't read it.
ClockworkZion wrote:To keep the numbers reasonably low we worked off the following rules:
1% of the entire Imperium meets the very basic criteria to be considered for becoming a Sororitas.
This right there is the first mistake. 1% of the entire population of the Imperium fulfills the basic criteria?
Every 50th(!) human female in the Imperium just happens to be the daughter of an Imperial official that was orphaned at birth and happens to be genetically pure?!
No. The Imperium doesn't even have that many officials, let alone pregnant ones who give up their kids at birth.
Officers OR adepts. And that includes officers in the Imperial Guard for instance. How many of those die EVERY DAY again?
Lynata wrote: The way it looks to me, a lot of posters here are trying to justify vastly inflated numbers by any means possible - not by looking at the numbers and hints actually provided by GW, but by arbitrarily deciding there need to be billions of Sisters and then thinking "how do we make this happen?" and then beginning to construct supposed evidence around this basis. I think I'm much more happy with my position as the Devil's Advocate - at least it results in my interpretation actually being reflected in the material I read.
I can work off smaller numbers but we need to get really silly to get down to 100K. That would mean the Imperium only has only a few hundred thousand Officers and Adepts. That's too damned small for the size of the Imperium, much less organizations like the Imperial Guard.
Your interpretation is supported, but I was just trying to give us an idea of what would be more sensible based on the actual size of the Imperium and just how damned big it is based on the actual information we have.
ClockworkZion wrote:Oh I understand, I just think the Frateris Militia is only being used as a true militia at most based on what we have.
Hmm? I'm sorry, here I don't understand what you mean.
ClockworkZion wrote:You replied to the Reign of Blood bit as a point in your favor, hence my response.
Yes, but that was because you mistakenly thought I'd refer to Vandire's forces when I mentioned Sebastian Thor and the Age of Apostasy, when I actually meant Vandire's enemies - that "bunch of zealous but untrained men" which were the origin and the core of the Confederacy of Light.
ClockworkZion wrote:Oh, and as for the Orphan thing we've got an established incident where the daughter of a Rogue Trader ran away from home (so to speak) and joined a covenant of Sisters to become one. So there is precedence for women to become them in other ways it seems (it's from the first Arbites novel). [...] We're dragging in everything else under the sun and BL has been officially stated as just as canon as every other source, so I didn't see why not to bring novels into it.
Because we can either discuss GW's material, or we'll have to settle for each of us preferring different and unconnected sources. Yes, everything is equally "canon" in that it is not canon at all. The different books were not written with the intention to create a single consistent setting, which is why they will often contradict each other. For example, that orphan thing you were referring to is in blatant conflict with Codex fluff explicitly stating that every single Battle Sister is raised in the Schola from infancy - no exceptions.
So we will have to decide which source we are discussing, but we cannot just go the Lexicanum route and throw everything into a pot and expect it to tie into each other. It (mostly) works within some novel series that were written by a team of authors, and it (mostly) works with the various codices and rulebooks that were written by the team of GW game designers. But once you throw books from different authors together, expect a contradiction, because different people have different ideas, and 40k's artistic licence lets everything be equally "optional".
Me, I'm discussing the Adepta Sororitas based on GW's own writings. I can't expect anyone else to view the Sisters in the same light, but similarly I cannot be expected to change GW's rather consistent portrayal of this faction just because some random freelancer put out another new novel that fails to depict the Sisters the way they are described in the Codices. *coughMitchellcough*
And as far as I'm concerned, the same goes for anything else in the setting. The Horus Heresy authors can keep touting their Primarchs as immortal until they're blue in the face - I'll just keep pointing to the 6E rulebook that explicitly states they were not.
Anyways, I dunno if you've already stumbled upon this, but here I have collected a few statements from various GW people and BL novel authors to describe the value of "canon" in 40k.
ClockworkZion wrote:To keep the numbers reasonably low we worked off the following rules:
1% of the entire Imperium meets the very basic criteria to be considered for becoming a Sororitas.
This right there is the first mistake. 1% of the entire population of the Imperium fulfills the basic criteria?
Every 50th(!) human female in the Imperium just happens to be the daughter of an Imperial official that was orphaned at birth and happens to be genetically pure?!
No. The Imperium doesn't even have that many officials, let alone pregnant ones who give up their kids at birth.
The way it looks to me, a lot of posters here are trying to justify vastly inflated numbers by any means possible - not by looking at the numbers and hints actually provided by GW, but by arbitrarily deciding there need to be billions of Sisters and then thinking "how do we make this happen?" and then beginning to construct supposed evidence around this basis. I think I'm much more happy with my position as the Devil's Advocate - at least it results in my interpretation actually being reflected in the material I read.
Hollowman wrote:I don't think so. Orks spend all their time drinking, carousing and fighting too, but that does not make them human in any meaningful sense.
Hollowman wrote:Marines gave a more constrained set of reactions - they don't respond the way humans do to a variety of things according to GW. The Sisters have a superior range of behavior and are more adaptable than the astartes
Not according to GW.
Not according to the fluff I have read on Space marines.
Your fluff on Space Marines included a line that Sisters have "a superior range of behavior"? Citation needed.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:lets not forget lifting the back ends of APC's out of the mud one handed, or being immune unarmored to small arms, or immune with armor to anything but heavy weaponry their enemies may field.
"Against most small arms, the armour reduces the chance of injury by between 50-85%, and it provides some form of protection against all except the most powerful weapons encountered on the battlefields of the 41st millennium." - 2E C:AoD, Space Marine Power Armour
Perhaps they are immune unarmoured to small arms fire in FFG's movie-like Deathwatch RPG, or certain uberepic Black Library novels, but they are not immune in GW's tabletop, GW's Inquisitor RPG, or GW's Codex fluff.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Their muscles don't age at all
Citation needed.
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:The average life time of a marine is about 80-100 years on the dot due to being KIA. I don't think sisters live that long.....
Canoness Carmina would seem to disagree.
Not that I'm suggesting she is the norm or average. Just an example for how old they can get at least. And this is a Canoness, so add another ~30 years for climbing up the ranks, and another ~17 for Schola upbringing and novitiate = circa 145 years.
SisterSydney wrote:250 ceremonies a year x 500 Novices per ceremony = 125,000 new Sisters a year.
That is if you think the Ecclesiarch has nothing to do but initiating novices all the time. Each ceremony lasts an entire night - I'd expect the poor man to get some sleep every now and then, and let's not even talk about Ecclesiarchal conclaves, Senatorum sessions, etc.
This is the Space Pope we're talking about. Personally, I'd expect him to be busier with ... y'know, Space Church stuff, than mass-processing new Space Nuns every day.
Marines being hurt by small arms...........You seem to be a bit out of touch, normal human strongmen are basically immune to small arms due to sheer muscle density and volume. (it wont reach an organ and will get lodged in only the first 2-3 inches of straight muscle. There's a lot more muscle than that before the organs.
What do you mean citation needed? Name one marine who actually acts like he's 500+ years old instead of moving around like a superman in his prime? You cant do it can you?
I can give examples: All of the primarchs look like geezers but they only seem to get greater and greater feats. Calgar is a geezer. Logan is a geezer. Sidonus is a geezer. Azrael is a geezer. Moloc is a geezer. Every damn chapter master looks really old but is dramatically stronger than a younger marine.
That's a canoness by the way. Chapter masters live 400+ years in their position alone typically. Dante is probably far older than 1000 because similarily aged marines cant remember a time when he wasn't chapter master.
SisterSydney wrote:250 ceremonies a year x 500 Novices per ceremony = 125,000 new Sisters a year.
That is if you think the Ecclesiarch has nothing to do but initiating novices all the time. Each ceremony lasts an entire night - I'd expect the poor man to get some sleep every now and then, and let's not even talk about Ecclesiarchal conclaves, Senatorum sessions, etc.
This is the Space Pope we're talking about. Personally, I'd expect him to be busier with ... y'know, Space Church stuff, than mass-processing new Space Nuns every day.
Oh, I'm not saying the Ecclesiarch is up all night. The Sisters are, sure, but I imagine he rolls out of bed, gets his vestments on, goes out onto his balcony, and prays over them for half an hour, tops. (That's the spoilered bit in my post). It's the climactic moment of the most important day in a Sister's life and utterly forgettable routine for the Space Pope.
"But for me, it was Tuesday." Even for an Ecclesiarch who sincerely loves the Sisters and finds the ritual so inspiring he misses the days he doesn't do it, they're all going to blur together. For some Ecclesiarchs, it's just another fething pain in the ass before they can get to their real work.
Oh, and having bought Pretre's copy of the 2004 White Dwarf with the chapter-approved Zealots in it, I happened on this lovely little bit:
The exact number and size of these "Lesser Orders Militant" or "Orders Minoris" can only be guessed. It may be assumed that none are [sic] as large as any of the six "Greater" Orders, and some may be as small as only a hundred or so Sisters....
... the leaders of the Lesser Orders are, in theory at least, answerable to the leaders of each of the Greater Orders that formed them, but this structure has little practical meaning because of the size of the Imperium and the many years [of] travel in the Warp that separates the Lesser Orders from their parents.
White Dwarf 292/May 2004, page 78, right-hand column. (So this was the Witchhunters era, I think).
GW canon. Gotta love it. You can justify almost any argument from it -- just like the Bible. (I'm a practicing Christian, I know that as well as anyone...)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, and here's another angle on the math:
Ignore all other "imperial servants" and just talk about the Imperial Guard, because they're the most likely to die.
Assume there are 10 billion Guards at any given time (a lowball estimate).
Assume 10% of them die per year. That's 1 billion.
Assume 10% of those leave behind orphans young enough to enter Schola. That's 100 million.
Assume 50% of those are girls. 50 million.
Assume 20% of those are "genetically pure." 10 million.
Assume 10% of those are Sisters material. 1 million.
Assume 10% of those make it through to full Battle Sister status. 100,000.
Assume they serve for an average of 10 years before death or disability. That's a steady state of 1 million Sisters galaxy-wide.
ClockworkZion wrote:Militias are defensive forces, reacting to emergencies and defending against invaders not being the main fighting faction in wars. But that's just my view on them.
Well, in a way they are defenders - defenders of the faith.
ClockworkZion wrote:I get what you're claiming, but let's be honest there is a lot from the BL books we're shirking that we bring up all the time. The stuff from Hammer and Anvil for example. Either we count all references or none of them.
Hey, I'm not using any non-GW material in my arguments. That was Troike (who I think has a more liberal stance regarding the fluff than my "conservative" attitude).
I've adopted some of their ideas into my personal interpretation of the setting, but to use those as "evidence" would obviously be very hypocritical of me.
ClockworkZion wrote:Officers OR adepts. And that includes officers in the Imperial Guard for instance. How many of those die EVERY DAY again?
Lots, but not many if we look at the percentages again.
If we're doing a "cross-section" of the Imperial populace and take 100 people, how many of those will be officers of the Imperial Guard (considering that there's not as much IG as there are PDF), how many will be members of an Adeptus, and how many will be simple PDF troopers, farmhands, labourers, slaves, mutants, psykers, sailors, merchants, Tech-Priests, mercenaries, criminals, ... the list goes on. You see what I mean.
ClockworkZion wrote:That would mean the Imperium only has only a few hundred thousand Officers and Adepts.
No, it doesn't. The vast majority of officers and adepts will either have no children at all, or children who grow up with relatives (keeping in mind that IG officers are recruited from a planet's nobility), or even children who actually DO end up in the Schola but only when they were not infants anymore.
The simple condition that induction happens at infancy alone already is a huge limitation, I think.
And that's before we consider ridiculously high physical and mental requirements that look like a mixture of the Navy SEALs and a Buddhist monk.
Though again, I don't even think that this may be the chief reason for low numbers. I speculate that it's primarily a political decision which in turn influences a given millennium's official membership requirements. Meaning, when the Orders are considered at near full strength, they'll only accept a ludicrously small amount of novices, but when large combat casualties or the founding of a new Minor Order have created an opening of sorts they may well relax them to fill up their numbers.
TheSaintofKillers wrote:Marines being hurt by small arms...........You seem to be a bit out of touch, normal human strongmen are basically immune to small arms due to sheer muscle density and volume. (it wont reach an organ and will get lodged in only the first 2-3 inches of straight muscle. There's a lot more muscle than that before the organs.
#1 I'm merely repeating what Games Workshop has written.
#2 Or maybe you are a bit out of touch with 40k, but "small arms" in the setting doesn't refer to contemporary 9mm Berettas. We're talking scifi lasguns that punch through power armour.
TheSaintofKillers wrote:What do you mean citation needed? Name one marine who actually acts like he's 500+ years old instead of moving around like a superman in his prime?
That's not how it works. You make a claim, you need to back it up. Do you see me running around stating that Battle Sisters are immortal and cannot die of old age just because you couldn't find an example?
TheSaintofKillers wrote:I can give examples: All of the primarchs look like geezers but they only seem to get greater and greater feats. Calgar is a geezer. Logan is a geezer. Sidonus is a geezer. Azrael is a geezer. Moloc is a geezer. Every damn chapter master looks really old but is dramatically stronger than a younger marine.
Oh, the Black Library Horus Heresy novel series with its epic fiction?
"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportions. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Magnus didn't force the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?
One by one, they disappear from the annals of history, the last of their kind reputedly disappearing by M32. Whether the many extraordinary and sometimes contradictory accounts told about the Primarchs hold any truth or are just apocryphal tales, they are preserved in the lore of each Space Marine Chapter." - 6E Rulebook, p.186
Thanks, I think I'll stick with the information about the Imperium in M41 as that lore is more clear and somewhat less muddled by myth and legend - and that's got to say something!
TheSaintofKillers wrote:That's a canoness by the way.
TheSaintofKillers wrote:Chapter masters live 400+ years in their position alone typically. Dante is probably far older than 1000 because similarily aged marines cant remember a time when he wasn't chapter master.
"With their genetically enhanced bodies, Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily life two to three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer. [...] Commander Dante is said to be 1100 standard Terran years of age and his vast service record of victories fills entire libraries with material." - 6E Rulebook, p.181
"Chaplain Cassius is the oldest active member of the Ultramarines Chapter. What little of his skin can be seen amid the life-sustaining bionics is gnarled and battle-scarred, and his one good eye burns with unfulfilled vengeance. Though Cassius is close on four centuries of age, his arm remains strong, his aim remains true and his sturdy presence within the Ultramarines battlelines fills the hearts of his younger brethren with pride and valour. [...] Cassius can recall tales of the first Tyrannic War when he fought alongside Malneus Calgar (always "young Calgar" to Cassius) to purge Ultramar of the horrific denizens of Hive Fleet Behemoth." - 5E C:SM, p.87
SisterSydney wrote:Oh, and having bought Pretre's copy of the 2004 White Dwarf with the chapter-approved Zealots in it, I happened on this lovely little bit: [...] White Dwarf 292/May 2004, page 78, right-hand column. (So this was the Witchhunters era, I think).
That's the Liber Sororitas, right? Good thing you got it, it's an excellent resource that I'd almost deem a must-have for any fan of the Sisters.
Um, excuse me for asking, but were you trying to make an argument from this bit? Either way, I certainly agree about the wide range of interpretations that seems to go with most of GW's material, "working as intended" I guess. Just look at the Primarch bit from the rulebook I quoted above - they don't say "it's as they say in the novels", but neither do they outright call everything a lie (well, except from individual contradictions such as the immortal bit), they literally say: "maybe".
SisterSydney wrote:Assume there are 10 billion Guards at any given time (a lowball estimate).
Officers?
SisterSydney wrote:Assume 10% of those leave behind orphans young enough to enter Schola.
How does that even work? These progena are recruited "from infancy". Induction into the Schola must almost happen simultaneously with the parents' death.
I think this is actually the least likely path to become a Sororitas - it seems much more possible to have a pregnant adept or IG officer, or an adept or IG officer who has a pregnant wife, opt to surrender their child to the Imperium because they can't deal with the child as it'd interfere with their duty. The 2E SoB Codex, for example, mentioned that the parents do not necessarily have to die for a child to become eligible for Schola induction, and provided as an example Imperial adepts posted to a faraway world where the kid couldn't accompany them.
Then you'd have the Ecclesiarchy stand ready to accept the child as soon as it is born = possible SoB material. If they make it through tests and training.
SisterSydney wrote:Assume 10% of those are Sisters material.
That's like saying 10% of all progena could achieve the extreme physical and mental requirements asked of potential novices. I think their training is more grueling, though this is mere speculation. 10%, in an educational facility whose majority of students end up being civilian scribes, just sounds like a lot. You'd get 10% soldiers in general, maybe, or 10% clerics. But how many of those would be "good enough" to become Commissars and Storm Troopers? How many Sororitas?
ClockworkZion wrote:Militias are defensive forces, reacting to emergencies and defending against invaders not being the main fighting faction in wars. But that's just my view on them.
Well, in a way they are defenders - defenders of the faith.
ClockworkZion wrote:I get what you're claiming, but let's be honest there is a lot from the BL books we're shirking that we bring up all the time. The stuff from Hammer and Anvil for example. Either we count all references or none of them.
Hey, I'm not using any non-GW material in my arguments. That was Troike (who I think has a more liberal stance regarding the fluff than my "conservative" attitude).
I've adopted some of their ideas into my personal interpretation of the setting, but to use those as "evidence" would obviously be very hypocritical of me.
ClockworkZion wrote:Officers OR adepts. And that includes officers in the Imperial Guard for instance. How many of those die EVERY DAY again?
Lots, but not many if we look at the percentages again.
If we're doing a "cross-section" of the Imperial populace and take 100 people, how many of those will be officers of the Imperial Guard (considering that there's not as much IG as there are PDF), how many will be members of an Adeptus, and how many will be simple PDF troopers, farmhands, labourers, slaves, mutants, psykers, sailors, merchants, Tech-Priests, mercenaries, criminals, ... the list goes on. You see what I mean.
ClockworkZion wrote:That would mean the Imperium only has only a few hundred thousand Officers and Adepts.
No, it doesn't. The vast majority of officers and adepts will either have no children at all, or children who grow up with relatives (keeping in mind that IG officers are recruited from a planet's nobility), or even children who actually DO end up in the Schola but only when they were not infants anymore.
The simple condition that induction happens at infancy alone already is a huge limitation, I think.
And that's before we consider ridiculously high physical and mental requirements that look like a mixture of the Navy SEALs and a Buddhist monk.
Though again, I don't even think that this may be the chief reason for low numbers. I speculate that it's primarily a political decision which in turn influences a given millennium's official membership requirements. Meaning, when the Orders are considered at near full strength, they'll only accept a ludicrously small amount of novices, but when large combat casualties or the founding of a new Minor Order have created an opening of sorts they may well relax them to fill up their numbers.
TheSaintofKillers wrote:Marines being hurt by small arms...........You seem to be a bit out of touch, normal human strongmen are basically immune to small arms due to sheer muscle density and volume. (it wont reach an organ and will get lodged in only the first 2-3 inches of straight muscle. There's a lot more muscle than that before the organs.
#1 I'm merely repeating what Games Workshop has written.
#2 Or maybe you are a bit out of touch with 40k, but "small arms" in the setting doesn't refer to contemporary 9mm Berettas. We're talking scifi lasguns that punch through power armour.
TheSaintofKillers wrote:What do you mean citation needed? Name one marine who actually acts like he's 500+ years old instead of moving around like a superman in his prime?
That's not how it works. You make a claim, you need to back it up. Do you see me running around stating that Battle Sisters are immortal and cannot die of old age just because you couldn't find an example?
TheSaintofKillers wrote:I can give examples: All of the primarchs look like geezers but they only seem to get greater and greater feats. Calgar is a geezer. Logan is a geezer. Sidonus is a geezer. Azrael is a geezer. Moloc is a geezer. Every damn chapter master looks really old but is dramatically stronger than a younger marine.
Oh, the Black Library Horus Heresy novel series with its epic fiction?
"Although long-lived, the Primarchs were not immortal, but it is hard to ascertain fact from the legends that surround such god-like beings. Certainly, each spearheaded a host of victories and heroic deeds across the galaxy, leaving behind innumerable deeds of mythic proportions. Who knows if Leman Russ, Primarch of the Space Wolves, really did best a Cyclopean Draxbeast single-handedly? And if Ferrus Magnus didn't force the Iron Pyramids of Medusa, then who did?
One by one, they disappear from the annals of history, the last of their kind reputedly disappearing by M32. Whether the many extraordinary and sometimes contradictory accounts told about the Primarchs hold any truth or are just apocryphal tales, they are preserved in the lore of each Space Marine Chapter." - 6E Rulebook, p.186
Thanks, I think I'll stick with the information about the Imperium in M41 as that lore is more clear and somewhat less muddled by myth and legend - and that's got to say something!
TheSaintofKillers wrote:That's a canoness by the way.
TheSaintofKillers wrote:Chapter masters live 400+ years in their position alone typically. Dante is probably far older than 1000 because similarily aged marines cant remember a time when he wasn't chapter master.
"With their genetically enhanced bodies, Space Marines live extended lifetimes - if they do not fall in battle, they can easily life two to three times longer than a normal man, and sometimes far longer. [...] Commander Dante is said to be 1100 standard Terran years of age and his vast service record of victories fills entire libraries with material." - 6E Rulebook, p.181
"Chaplain Cassius is the oldest active member of the Ultramarines Chapter. What little of his skin can be seen amid the life-sustaining bionics is gnarled and battle-scarred, and his one good eye burns with unfulfilled vengeance. Though Cassius is close on four centuries of age, his arm remains strong, his aim remains true and his sturdy presence within the Ultramarines battlelines fills the hearts of his younger brethren with pride and valour. [...] Cassius can recall tales of the first Tyrannic War when he fought alongside Malneus Calgar (always "young Calgar" to Cassius) to purge Ultramar of the horrific denizens of Hive Fleet Behemoth." - 5E C:SM, p.87
SisterSydney wrote:Oh, and having bought Pretre's copy of the 2004 White Dwarf with the chapter-approved Zealots in it, I happened on this lovely little bit: [...] White Dwarf 292/May 2004, page 78, right-hand column. (So this was the Witchhunters era, I think).
That's the Liber Sororitas, right? Good thing you got it, it's an excellent resource that I'd almost deem a must-have for any fan of the Sisters.
Um, excuse me for asking, but were you trying to make an argument from this bit? Either way, I certainly agree about the wide range of interpretations that seems to go with most of GW's material, "working as intended" I guess. Just look at the Primarch bit from the rulebook I quoted above - they don't say "it's as they say in the novels", but neither do they outright call everything a lie (well, except from individual contradictions such as the immortal bit), they literally say: "maybe".
That's not what the actual people in charge of fluff say. The main mass of fluff comes from black library which is equally as canon as the codexes. A lasgun is an assault weapon (think m16). Not a small arm (autopistol), and it wont do anything to a marine in any source that treats them with respect. That's not how it works? I didn't make a claim, and I preceded to provide examples because I felt like it and you couldn't give any to the contrary.
I was talking about average life span, and a canoness isn't exactly normal in her position is she?
I honestly expect sisters unarmored to shrug off small arms (9mm) due to sheer toughness and pain thresholds, like a Sin City character. Marines? they wont get through the skin.
Alright, I decided to stop with the back and forth on recruitment and focus on only what the fluff I can find tells us:
2nd Edition codex (page 33):
The Scholera is responsible for the care and education of orphans of Imperial Servants. From the favoured sons of an Imperial Guard colonel to the children of a scribe posted to a distant world, the Scholera cares for them all."
Here we see that the Scholeras only accept orphans of anyone who serves the Imperium directly.
By the time a Progena reaches early adolescence they will have displayed skills in a certain direction and their tutelage to the age of sixteen will focus on these talents and hone the pupil to a career in one of the Imperial organizations...Female Progena may well be enterted into the Adepta Sororitas."
So from this and the previous bit we can see that to be a Sister of Battle the stringent standards were: 1) be an orphan of anyone who served the Imperium, 2) be a girl, 3) display certain skills/attributes that made you seem like a good fit (pray a lot?). Not really hard stuff there.
"...orphans raised by the Scholera Progenium, the Battle Sisters are well disciplined and highly devoted to the Emperor."
Nothing here that outright contradicts the previous fluff, but an omission to being the child of a servant of the Imperium is noticeable.
5th Edition WD Codex (Battle Sisters fluff):
Every Battle Sisters is an orphan raised from birth..."
Again, no mentioning of who the parents have to be, only that their and orphan "from birth". I'm almost guessing the Scholera is taking the infants from warzones whose parents can't be found/identified/whatever.
6th Edition Rulebook (page 195):
"The troops of this devout Sisterhood are raised from infancy..."
Now we lack the claim that their orphans as well. This seems to suggest a possibility that any girl can be given to the Scholera to become a Sister of Battle. And considering the cultist nature of the Imperial Creed I can actually see this happening on some worlds. Especially Shrine Worlds.
So the conclusion that I can take from this is the following:
Sisters don't have to be orphans nor do the have to be the children of Imperial Servants. It seems, at least with what little we have to go off of, that every writer who has tackled them has a different idea on how exactly the Sisters are trained and chosen and the most recent iteration mentions neither orphans or being the children of Imperial Servants.
Now can this change again? Naturally, but I think for the time being the recruit pool may be a touch bit bigger than we were thinking as we were mashing things together across codexes regardless of differences in writers, focus and intent (much like the complaint earlier about mashing BL books in with codexes).
Either way, I'm sticking by my assessment of the numbers until GW does a better job explaining how there are so few Sisters without their being problems with them being spread so thin.
It occurs to me that the seeming problem with the "official" background number, if it was ever given, could easily be attributed to the various writers lacking a sense of scale.
But still, with 21,000 Battle Sisters, that's the equivalent of 21 loyalist Space Marine Codex Chapters. Arguably the Marines get called on more often, and have a broader range of responsibilities, which is why they'd have roughly 50x the numbers of the Sisters of Battle. Space Marine Chapters seem to have less stringent recruitment requirements, since they can recruit from their choice of the young men on their recruitment world or system, rather than relying on their recruits having been raised and indoctrinated by a particular organization, but their numbers are limited by the Codex Astartes rather than a lack of candidates to choose from.
So I'd have to agree that the main limiting factors for the Sororitas' numbers would be the small selection of properly indoctrinated candidates, and (probably) wanting to keep the Ecclesiarchy's militant arm small enough that no one gets overly concerned about a possible second Vandire (though from what I've read in this thread, the Sisters seem capable of taking care of such things before they get to that point.) That last one is pretty much exactly why the Space Marines were split up into Chapters, if you replace Vandire with Horus.
Seriously, can you imagine if the Sisters of Battle outnumbered the Space Marines 10,000 to 1? Wouldn't that make you mildly uneasy about the Ecclesiarch going mad with power if you were one of the other High Lords of Terra?
Pouncey wrote: It occurs to me that the seeming problem with the "official" background number, if it was ever given, could easily be attributed to the various writers lacking a sense of scale.
This is essentially the problem with all fiction forever.
But still, with 21,000 Battle Sisters, that's the equivalent of 21 loyalist Space Marine Codex Chapters. Arguably the Marines get called on more often, and have a broader range of responsibilities, which is why they'd have roughly 50x the numbers of the Sisters of Battle. Space Marine Chapters seem to have less stringent recruitment requirements, since they can recruit from their choice of the young men on their recruitment world or system, rather than relying on their recruits having been raised and indoctrinated by a particular organization, but their numbers are limited by the Codex Astartes rather than a lack of candidates to choose from.
So I'd have to agree that the main limiting factors for the Sororitas' numbers would be the small selection of properly indoctrinated candidates, and (probably) wanting to keep the Ecclesiarchy's militant arm small enough that no one gets overly concerned about a possible second Vandire (though from what I've read in this thread, the Sisters seem capable of taking care of such things before they get to that point.) That last one is pretty much exactly why the Space Marines were split up into Chapters, if you replace Vandire with Horus.
Seriously, can you imagine if the Sisters of Battle outnumbered the Space Marines 10,000 to 1? Wouldn't that make you mildly uneasy about the Ecclesiarch going mad with power if you were one of the other High Lords of Terra?
With the rampant paranoia, constant threat of assassination, and constant threat of assassination, an army of space nuns who could easily be wiped out by the IG might not be a top priority.
Pouncey wrote: It occurs to me that the seeming problem with the "official" background number, if it was ever given, could easily be attributed to the various writers lacking a sense of scale.
This is essentially the problem with all fiction forever.
But still, with 21,000 Battle Sisters, that's the equivalent of 21 loyalist Space Marine Codex Chapters. Arguably the Marines get called on more often, and have a broader range of responsibilities, which is why they'd have roughly 50x the numbers of the Sisters of Battle. Space Marine Chapters seem to have less stringent recruitment requirements, since they can recruit from their choice of the young men on their recruitment world or system, rather than relying on their recruits having been raised and indoctrinated by a particular organization, but their numbers are limited by the Codex Astartes rather than a lack of candidates to choose from.
So I'd have to agree that the main limiting factors for the Sororitas' numbers would be the small selection of properly indoctrinated candidates, and (probably) wanting to keep the Ecclesiarchy's militant arm small enough that no one gets overly concerned about a possible second Vandire (though from what I've read in this thread, the Sisters seem capable of taking care of such things before they get to that point.) That last one is pretty much exactly why the Space Marines were split up into Chapters, if you replace Vandire with Horus.
Seriously, can you imagine if the Sisters of Battle outnumbered the Space Marines 10,000 to 1? Wouldn't that make you mildly uneasy about the Ecclesiarch going mad with power if you were one of the other High Lords of Terra?
With the rampant paranoia, constant threat of assassination, and constant threat of assassination, an army of space nuns who could easily be wiped out by the IG might not be a top priority.
Well, yeah, they're insignificant now. That's kinda the thing I meant. No one worries about the Ecclesiarch going mad with power and somehow having the Sororitas all follow him instead of following what's-her-name's example and shooting him in the head right away, because even if it did happen, it wouldn't get too far - though arguably, Vandire only had 10,000 Brides of the Emperor (half the number of Sisters of Battle currently estimated to exist) and managed a hell of a civil war, so, yeah.
But there was an estimate on the previous page about a more realistic number of Sororitas in comparison to the size of the Imperium, placing it at a theoretical 10 billion (roughly 10,000 per planet). With the equivalent of 10 Space Marine Codex Chapters occupying each planet in the Imperium, all under the control of the Ecclesiarchy... Yeah, it might be cause for worry.
TheSaintofKillers wrote:That's not what the actual people in charge of fluff say. The main mass of fluff comes from black library which is equally as canon as the codexes.
And it is contradictory, meaning we have to choose what we adhere to. I stick to GW's own writing. You don't have to, but that's how *I* roll. To me, GW's own fluff (the "main fluff" in that it is the foundation upon which anything else is built on) makes for a better setting, specifically because of such details as it not quite raising the Space Marines to even loftier position where I'd expect them to clear out the Eye of Terror on their own, and specifically because they are vulnerable "even" against enemies from within the Imperium. I like vulnerabilities in whatever stuff I read; it makes a setting feel more realistic.
TheSaintofKillers wrote:A lasgun is an assault weapon (think m16). Not a small arm (autopistol), and it wont do anything to a marine in any source that treats them with respect.
That interpretation of "respect" obviously being a matter of preferences.
Lasguns, laspistols, laspistols all do equal damage in the TT and GW's Inquisitor RPG, and the Codex quote still stands. Also, the term small arms would seem to include assault rifles: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small_arms
TheSaintofKillers wrote:That's not how it works? I didn't make a claim, and I preceded to provide examples because I felt like it and you couldn't give any to the contrary.
You claimed that "their muscles don't age at all", hence my "citation needed". Assumptions are not facts.
But since our interpretations may simply be different because we're working off different material, it may well be a topic not even worth argueing about. It has little to do with the subject at hand, and we may never agree upon a result here anyways.
TheSaintofKillers wrote:I was talking about average life span, and a canoness isn't exactly normal in her position is she?
Well, unfortunately we don't have any information on average life spans on either Space Marines or Battle Sisters, just individual examples which are not very good to work with aside from defining a minimum range of possibilities.
But to address your concerns, no, I'm not saying that the life span of the average Sister would be equal to that of the average Marine, though it'd depend heavily on the Order. Comparing the Major Orders Militant to the Astartes Chapters, the Sisters both seem to see more combat (and are thus more often exposed to risk) and are less likely to survive deployment, so ... yeah.
TheSaintofKillers wrote:I honestly expect sisters unarmored to shrug off small arms (9mm) due to sheer toughness and pain thresholds, like a Sin City character. Marines? they wont get through the skin.
Contemporary RL Earth small arms? Maybe, if we're talking "shrugging off" as in "ignoring, but still being injured", and obviously only if they don't hit a vital area. 40k small arms tend to be more dangerous, though the power armour would of course take some of the damage out of a hit.
Anyways, I think the Inquisitor game gave a good representation of how it works - with these weapons causing grievous injuries to both Marines as well as normal humans. It's just that the Marine could take several of those injuries and still continue to function, whereas a human is notably more affected. Ultimately, it's just a couple more shots for the Astartes too, though...
And I'm not sure where you're taking this toughness of Marine skin from. It's not part of GW's description of the changes wrought upon a Space Marine, so I'm going to assume it's some Black Library novel? Going by the Index Astartes, what makes the Marines more robust is chiefly the adamantium reinforcement of their bones, followed by the dense muscle tissue. When they are injured, they also stop bleeding all by themselves (naturally dependent on the size of the wound). The subdermal Black Carapace implant may provide a minimum of additional protection, if only in combination with the other factors (as "a sheet of plastic" doesn't sound very tough on its own, and anyprotection would merely be an unintentional side-effect).
So much for how Space Marines work in Lynata's world, anyways. If you're curious, here is an online backup of the Index Astartes article that describes Marine creation and implantation, as printed in White Dwarf issue #247.
ClockworkZion wrote:Sisters don't have to be orphans nor do the have to be the children of Imperial Servants. It seems, at least with what little we have to go off of, that every writer who has tackled them has a different idea on how exactly the Sisters are trained and chosen and the most recent iteration mentions neither orphans or being the children of Imperial Servants.
Whoah there. You're discarding 90% of GW's SoB fluff here, just to justify higher numbers? Okay, that's the point where we'll just have to agree to disagree.
GW doesn't seem to work like you suggest:
"With this Codex, we've aimed to remain faithful to the rich history of the Sisters of Battle and the Ecclesiarchy, but we've also aimed to move the story on – not by contradicting anything previously published but by expanding the background in directions not yet explored." - WD #292, 3E Codex designer's notes
ClockworkZion wrote:Either way, I'm sticking by my assessment of the numbers until GW does a better job explaining how there are so few Sisters without their being problems with them being spread so thin.
Who says there are no problems? I'm sure the Sisters would have liked to be at Bladen to protect that Cathedral, and I'm sure they would have liked to have more troops on Armageddon and in the Cadian sector as well.
Their low numbers are the perfect explanation for why we don't see more of them in the fluff. As much as this is (out-of-universe) more likely a case of GW lacking interest in publishing SoB material, given how detailed certain much smaller Marine Chapters' exploits are, it is a neat side-effect - and it perfectly explains the low numbers of Sisters even whereGW remembered them.
Spoiler:
But I guess we pretty much exhausted that debate by now as we've made all our arguments and are stuck on key issues where neither side is going to relent. Still, it was an interesting discussion, and enjoyable due to the civility.
xole wrote:With the rampant paranoia, constant threat of assassination, and constant threat of assassination, an army of space nuns who could easily be wiped out by the IG might not be a top priority.
Oh, you mean the same IG that consists of soldiers faithful to the Imperial Creed, that have an Ecclesiarchy Confessor attached to every single regiment, and who occasionally join an Ecclesiarchal War of Faith without orders from their higher-ups?
GW's own writing is contradictory, too. Like the hilarious mistake of conveniently forgetting to include half of the major orders in the fifth edition rulebook. It's like whoever wrote it was some dyslexic who only read half the page on sisters orders and then said "meh, good enough for govvit work I say" then went to type a paragraph about the three orders he read.
ClockworkZion wrote:Sisters don't have to be orphans nor do the have to be the children of Imperial Servants. It seems, at least with what little we have to go off of, that every writer who has tackled them has a different idea on how exactly the Sisters are trained and chosen and the most recent iteration mentions neither orphans or being the children of Imperial Servants.
Whoah there. You're discarding 90% of GW's SoB fluff here, just to justify higher numbers? Okay, that's the point where we'll just have to agree to disagree.
No, I was discarding the fluff because GW seems to be doing so themselves. It's with that fluff that they still have those low numbers anyways. I was just highlighting the differences between the editions and how they presented the fluff on where Sisters come from.
And my numbers were just run as a kind of experiment. We can go smaller (say we start with a base of only black haired women for instance) but the fact remains that even only taking in 2nd Edition's fluff (girl + orphaned child of someone who worked for the Imperium in some capacity) you have a ridiculously large selection pool that isn't being tapped for reasons never really explained. Either that or it is being tapped and the Imperium goes through Sisters like a tissues at a convention of people with the flu.
Lynata wrote: GW doesn't seem to work like you suggest:
"With this Codex, we've aimed to remain faithful to the rich history of the Sisters of Battle and the Ecclesiarchy, but we've also aimed to move the story on – not by contradicting anything previously published but by expanding the background in directions not yet explored." - WD #292, 3E Codex designer's notes
Yeah, and 3rd didn't directly contradict anything that 2nd had. That was 3 editions and a whole bunch of devs ago. Can we honestly claim that the team we have now see it the same way? I mean they did explicitly kill Praxedes, something that hadn't been done in the past afterall, so I think that's grounds to consider the fact that they're more willing to change and adjust things.
ClockworkZion wrote:Either way, I'm sticking by my assessment of the numbers until GW does a better job explaining how there are so few Sisters without their being problems with them being spread so thin.
Who says there are no problems? I'm sure the Sisters would have liked to be at Bladen to protect that Cathedral, and I'm sure they would have liked to have more troops on Armageddon and in the Cadian sector as well.
Their low numbers are the perfect explanation for why we don't see more of them in the fluff. As much as this is (out-of-universe) more likely a case of GW lacking interest in publishing SoB material, given how detailed certain much smaller Marine Chapters' exploits are, it is a neat side-effect - and it perfectly explains the low numbers of Sisters even whereGW remembered them.
The low numbers are a BS reason to not spend time building them up more in the fluff and background when they're so integrated into the Imperium. It's lazy writing and shows a lack of a proper sense of scale. If they're going to artificially set the numbers so low they need to take the time to fully justify why so it doesn't look so silly then explain why Sisters being outnumbered by Space Marines isn't exactly an issue with their many duties.
For the record, going back through things the duties of the various Sororitas include:
Protecting Ecclesiarchy Relics
Portecting Ecclesiarchy Holy Sites
Protecting Churches
Bringing the Imperial Creed to newly found/rediscovered worlds
Leading Wars of Faith
Guarding Pilgrim ships and routes
Assisting the Ordos Hereticus
Persecuting Heretics
Defending Shrine Worlds
Training new Sisters
Serving as a Field Hospital for the Imperial Guard
Running clinics for the poor
Brokering the various deals that are done between noble families
Arranging marriages between various noble families
Policing the Ecclesiarchy to keep it in check
Policing the various organizations of the Imperium as a constant watchdog against Heresy
Eradicating Space Marine chapters
Participating in major conflicts (Armageddon, the 13th Black Crusade)
Translating messages for various dialects of Gothic
Translating xeno writing and languages
And I'm sure I'm missing things in there too. But the fact is the more we keep adding to the pile of stuff they do, the harder it is to accept the studio's fluff on this one.
But I guess we pretty much exhausted that debate by now as we've made all our arguments and are stuck on key issues where neither side is going to relent. Still, it was an interesting discussion, and enjoyable due to the civility.
That's fair. I'm not trying to browbeat anyone to my side of things, I was just trying to highlight my issues with the studio fluff in terms of organizational matters for the Sisters and how I felt it could be improved.
ClockworkZion wrote:Yeah, and 3rd didn't directly contradict anything that 2nd had. That was 3 editions and a whole bunch of devs ago. Can we honestly claim that the team we have now see it the same way?
Can we claim that they don't?
I'll have to face that "crisis of faith" when they actually do contradict the lower numbers or the restricted recruitment, but so far I'm not seeing the "retcon".
I am still mad about Praxedes tho. Even when one could, in theory, argue it away as a difference between propaganda and fact, it annoys me to no end that such an awesome legend would just get discarded like that. The new writing doesn't add anything to the setting aside from causing me to rage on the 5E "Codex" in terms of fluff as well as rules.
ClockworkZion wrote:If they're going to artificially set the numbers so low they need to take the time to fully justify why so it doesn't look so silly then explain why Sisters being outnumbered by Space Marines isn't exactly an issue with their many duties.
Alright. Using your list I will add my own remarks in italics:
Protecting some Ecclesiarchy Relics
Portecting some Ecclesiarchy Holy Sites
Protecting some Churches
Bringing the Imperial Creed to occasionally newly found/rediscovered worlds as part of the Non-Militant Orders Sabine, or by attaching a few bodyguards to a cleric Leading Wars of Faith by sending detachments from the Major Orders to serve as a spearhead for other forces to rally around Guarding some Pilgrim ships and routes
Occasionally assisting the Ordos Hereticus
Occasionally Persecuting Heretics, often as part of the aforementioned collaboration with the Ordo Hereticus Defending Shrine Worlds by standing ready to despatch a force whenever an emergency occurs Training new Sisters which is done by the Orders Famulous Serving as a Field Hospital for the Imperial Guard which is done by the Orders Hospitaller, who also do not service any and every IG regiment Running clinics for the poor which does not seem to happen in GW's own material, just BL novels Brokering some of the various deals that are done between noble families which is done by the Orders Famulous Arranging some marriages between various noble families, also done by the Orders Famulous Policing the Ecclesiarchy to keep it in check as part of the already-mentioned task of assisting the Ordo Hereticus Policing the various organizations of the Imperium as a constant watchdog against Heresy as part of the already-mentioned task of assisting the Ordo Hereticus Eradicating Space Marine chapters which admittedly doesn't happen that often Participating in major conflicts (Armageddon, the 13th Black Crusade) where you had about 1 Battle Sister for every 20 Space Marines present Translating messages for various dialects of Gothic which is done by the Orders Dialogous Translating xeno writing and languages which is done by the Orders Dialogous
Your list seems rather inflated by listing a lot of stuff twice or thrice (or even four times - e.g. defending relics, holy sites, churches AND shrine worlds) that could have been lumped into a single thing (e.g. defending holy sites), and it is obviously not just about the Battle Sisters.
Are we now talking about the numbers of Adepta Sororitas as a whole? Because that's an entirely different topic, and something where I'd be much more open about discussion something like a million or more.
And to reiterate, I don't see the problem with so many tasks specifically because they won't be doing all of them simultaneously and/or with the entirety of their Sisters. The Major Orders are active in several warzones simultaneously because they have the numbers and the mobility, whereas Codex fluff even specifically points out that the Inquisitors prefer the Minor Orders for OH business because their bases are more spread-out and thus able to faster respond to local matters than calling in a ship from, say, Ophelia VII. Your average Minor Order won't go around torching random heretics day and night - the clergy and the civilian zealots wouldn't have anything left to do if it were like that. The daily schedule of a Battle Sister consists of training and prayer, occasionally interrupted by a mission - which could be anything from accompanying a pilgrim transport to executing an apostate Cardinal to burning a few mutants. It all depends on the day.
I mean, it's not like we see the Space Marines never being at home, and there's certainly enough evil stuff to fight. One could also look to the Orders Militant' historical example, the various religious knightly orders in medieval times.
If we'd aim for a number of Battle Sisters truly able to deal with any heretic anywhere, we'd need as many Sisters as there are Guardsmen, if not more. Part of the setting's main theme is that there are never enough Imperial troops to truly win, regardless of whether we'd be talking Marines or Sisters. And even the Guardsmen are merely "holding the line".
ClockworkZion wrote: The low numbers are a BS reason to not spend time building them up more in the fluff and background when they're so integrated into the Imperium. It's lazy writing and shows a lack of a proper sense of scale.
Now that's a statement I can get behind. GW being stupid is something I can almost always agree with.
Just to throw in my two cents into the numbers issue, I think I'd be much more accepting of the current "low-ish" numbers if it was emphasised that only very particular, very special people were picked to become SoBs, and that there were various logistical issues on top of that. More or less what Lynata has been saying throughout. The problem, it seems, is that GW's studio fluff does not emphasise this so much. As Zion pointed out, it seems to have become an increasingly less exclusive club every codex, with the latest codex only listing only being an orphan as the prerequisite. So it seems weird that they're so few. But if they really underlined how much of an exclusive organisation the Orders Militant is, then it would make substantially more sense, I think. Maybe not complete sense, but still much more sense.
Personally, I'm predicting that a new codex would be rather heavy with the fluff, being a proper, full-sized codex without the Sisters sharing with anybody, so maybe it'll have some good insight into the matter.
Lynata wrote: Hey, I'm not using any non-GW material in my arguments. That was Troike (who I think has a more liberal stance regarding the fluff than my "conservative" attitude)
In a way. My stance is that I'll accept non-studio stuff if it lines up with the studio canon, but if a piece of third-party thing doesn't match up (or just elements of it) then I'll disregard it as canon (or the offending elements).
Pouncey wrote: No one worries about the Ecclesiarch going mad with power and somehow having the Sororitas all follow him instead of following what's-her-name's example and shooting him in the head right away
Alicia Dominica. And yeah, the Sororitas are very much on-guard for that sort of thing these days. The Order of the Valorous Heart especially. To an extreme degree, even for SoBs.
Oh damn. Now I want to paint Valorous Heart Sisters instead of Ebon Chalice Sisters for my next army.
Troike wrote:In a way. My stance is that I'll accept non-studio stuff if it lines up with the studio canon, but if a piece of third-party thing doesn't match up (or just elements of it) then I'll disregard it as canon (or the offending elements).
Oh, exactly how my "private" interpretation works.
The way the franchise works unfortunately makes it really tough to discuss the fluff. GW's stance that everything is equally valid (or invalid) means that we have little in terms of a common base. When I'm discussing fluff, I tend to do so with limitation to GW studio material as that, I think, still comes closest to it. Even 3rd party additions that may match up in one's mind are a matter of interpretation, and even studio material alone is debated, as we can see here.
If you're having fun, then the original design of 40k is being fulfilled.
If you're not, blame GW.
Everyone wins.
(Also, headcanon is the only one that counts. Some people truly believe the only unbalanced codex in current 40k is DA, and all the rest are good, but they have fun)
ClockworkZion wrote:Yeah, and 3rd didn't directly contradict anything that 2nd had. That was 3 editions and a whole bunch of devs ago. Can we honestly claim that the team we have now see it the same way?
Can we claim that they don't?
I'll have to face that "crisis of faith" when they actually do contradict the lower numbers or the restricted recruitment, but so far I'm not seeing the "retcon".
Praxedes proves that they are willing to change fluff rather nicely. Oh and Jaconus isn't dead now, Celestine has no references to being nuked (and is now 500% more miraculous than before). I'm sure I can find more if I really tried.
Lynata wrote: I am still mad about Praxedes tho. Even when one could, in theory, argue it away as a difference between propaganda and fact, it annoys me to no end that such an awesome legend would just get discarded like that. The new writing doesn't add anything to the setting aside from causing me to rage on the 5E "Codex" in terms of fluff as well as rules.
What about our merry excursion to a Daemon infested world?
ClockworkZion wrote:If they're going to artificially set the numbers so low they need to take the time to fully justify why so it doesn't look so silly then explain why Sisters being outnumbered by Space Marines isn't exactly an issue with their many duties.
Alright. Using your list I will add my own remarks in italics:
Protecting some Ecclesiarchy Relics
Portecting some Ecclesiarchy Holy Sites
Protecting some Churches
Bringing the Imperial Creed to occasionally newly found/rediscovered worlds as part of the Non-Militant Orders Sabine, or by attaching a few bodyguards to a cleric Leading Wars of Faith by sending detachments from the Major Orders to serve as a spearhead for other forces to rally around Guarding some Pilgrim ships and routes
Occasionally assisting the Ordos Hereticus
Occasionally Persecuting Heretics, often as part of the aforementioned collaboration with the Ordo Hereticus Defending Shrine Worlds by standing ready to despatch a force whenever an emergency occurs Training new Sisters which is done by the Orders Famulous Serving as a Field Hospital for the Imperial Guard which is done by the Orders Hospitaller, who also do not service any and every IG regiment Running clinics for the poor which does not seem to happen in GW's own material, just BL novels Brokering some of the various deals that are done between noble families which is done by the Orders Famulous Arranging some marriages between various noble families, also done by the Orders Famulous Policing the Ecclesiarchy to keep it in check as part of the already-mentioned task of assisting the Ordo Hereticus Policing the various organizations of the Imperium as a constant watchdog against Heresy as part of the already-mentioned task of assisting the Ordo Hereticus Eradicating Space Marine chapters which admittedly doesn't happen that often Participating in major conflicts (Armageddon, the 13th Black Crusade) where you had about 1 Battle Sister for every 20 Space Marines present Translating messages for various dialects of Gothic which is done by the Orders Dialogous Translating xeno writing and languages which is done by the Orders Dialogous
Your list seems rather inflated by listing a lot of stuff twice or thrice (or even four times - e.g. defending relics, holy sites, churches AND shrine worlds) that could have been lumped into a single thing (e.g. defending holy sites), and it is obviously not just about the Battle Sisters.
Not all relics are in churches, holy sites or on shrine worlds (we also have an order who collects and stores them, remember?). Additionally all churches and holy sites aren't on shrine worlds. I COULD lump them together but they are seperate things that as of the last bit of fluff it seems Sisters are responsible for protecting ALL of them.
My list covered all of the Sororitas, not just the Battle Sisters. The thing is, due to fluff, if the Militant Orders are locked at an artificially low number, so are the non-Militant orders which causes problems too.
And the clinics things is from the 2nd Ed codex about Hospitallers (also I said Field Hospital...kinda like a MASH unit, only less comedy than the show).
Lynata wrote: Are we now talking about the numbers of Adepta Sororitas as a whole? Because that's an entirely different topic, and something where I'd be much more open about discussion something like a million or more.
If we're locking numbers down on militant orders it locks down numbers down on non-militant orders too, because they can't (per fluff) outnumber the militants.
Lynata wrote: And to reiterate, I don't see the problem with so many tasks specifically because they won't be doing all of them simultaneously and/or with the entirety of their Sisters. The Major Orders are active in several warzones simultaneously because they have the numbers and the mobility, whereas Codex fluff even specifically points out that the Inquisitors prefer the Minor Orders for OH business because their bases are more spread-out and thus able to faster respond to local matters than calling in a ship from, say, Ophelia VII. Your average Minor Order won't go around torching random heretics day and night - the clergy and the civilian zealots wouldn't have anything left to do if it were like that. The daily schedule of a Battle Sister consists of training and prayer, occasionally interrupted by a mission - which could be anything from accompanying a pilgrim transport to executing an apostate Cardinal to burning a few mutants. It all depends on the day.
Being former military, and someone who dealt with personnel and the like, I do. 21,000 isn't a large standing force for the amount of work they have to do and with the fluff being the way it is the numbers fluctuate so wildly that the true miracle is that non of the Major Orders have been wiped out.
Lynata wrote: I mean, it's not like we see the Space Marines never being at home, and there's certainly enough evil stuff to fight. One could also look to the Orders Militant' historical example, the various religious knightly orders in medieval times.
Space Marines also have a more established fluff on why they only have so many. They have smaller population counts to draw from, some don't survive the implant process, the low count enforced because they essentially screwed the pooch and the Heresy happened, ect.
Lynata wrote: If we'd aim for a number of Battle Sisters truly able to deal with any heretic anywhere, we'd need as many Sisters as there are Guardsmen, if not more. Part of the setting's main theme is that there are never enough Imperial troops to truly win, regardless of whether we'd be talking Marines or Sisters. And even the Guardsmen are merely "holding the line".
I'm fine with there not being as many Sisters are there are Heretics. Even if we didn't go as high as my 10.5 Billion going higher would still make more sense than what we've got. Like I said, we could start restricting things further with rules such as "only women with black hair" and so on, but the point I was trying to make is that there is either missing facts that GW needs to be sharing with us, or the numbers need to be adjusted, that was my whole point.
ClockworkZion wrote: The low numbers are a BS reason to not spend time building them up more in the fluff and background when they're so integrated into the Imperium. It's lazy writing and shows a lack of a proper sense of scale.
Now that's a statement I can get behind. GW being stupid is something I can almost always agree with.
ClockworkZion wrote:Praxedes proves that they are willing to change fluff rather nicely. Oh and Jaconus isn't dead now, Celestine has no references to being nuked (and is now 500% more miraculous than before). I'm sure I can find more if I really tried.
Can you find something about the numbers, though?
ClockworkZion wrote:What about our merry excursion to a Daemon infested world?
I'd rather have old Praxedes back. In its own way, the legend surrounding her MIA status was more "epic" than a bunch of Sisters shooting a path through a Daemon world. Praxedes was Sainted for her sacrifice, and I could easily see her story and myth spreading through entire sectors. The recovery of someone's left thighbone from a Daemon world, on the other hand? That just sounds like "every Tuesday" for the Orders Militant, if you permit the exaggeration. Praxedes was unique.
Perhaps it's just the way it was written, with the whole thing having been explained in but three sentences. I admit it has potential to be made more dramatic by giving this incident more "personality" rather than just being like "they went there, killed a few daemons, lost a few Sisters, then dusted off again".
Don't get me wrong - it's certainly not bad, but if I were permitted to choose ...
ClockworkZion wrote:Not all relics are in churches, holy sites or on shrine worlds (we also have an order who collects and stores them, remember?). Additionally all churches and holy sites aren't on shrine worlds.
Every church, every shrine, and every shrine world is a holy site by default. The Orders Pronatus collect Imperial relics but they don't store them - what they do store is relics and technology deemed dangerous to the Imperium. As far as I can see, proper Imperial relics are either kept safe at a shrine or vault on holy ground, or are carried into battle by the Sisters ... and sometimes certain clerics, though less often than the SoB do. I do remember a line in the 2E Codex about lots of priests being like "nnnooo don't touch it" in regards to the Sisters' affinity to actually take a relic OUT of its safe shrine and take it for a walk on some battlefield.
ClockworkZion wrote:And the clinics things is from the 2nd Ed codex about Hospitallers (also I said Field Hospital...kinda like a MASH unit, only less comedy than the show).
I'll re-check, but from memory the Hospitallers serve the military and the Inquisition, and sometimes a Rogue Trader in good standing with the Ecclesiarchy.
It may well be that they also aid the poor, but how often/much?
ClockworkZion wrote:If we're locking numbers down on militant orders it locks down numbers down on non-militant orders too, because they can't (per fluff) outnumber the militants.
Not necessarily - going by the Liber Sororitas, it's not a comparison of Militant to Non-Militant, but specific sub-sections of the Non-Militant ones*:
"Some orders, such as the Orders Dialogus and Famulous, are known to be as large as the Orders Militant, whereas others may be little more than a handful of Sisters pursuing their obscure specialization. The cloisters of the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum are vast and winding, and those who oversee them may not even know the full extent of those that toil within the gloomy chambers."
There is no exact limitation on the overall number of Non-Militant Orders, just the provision that none of them may rise above the total number of Battle Sisters in terms of membership. In other words, there could be a hundred Orders (all with individual convents, like the Order of the Gate and the Order of the Holy Seal are both Orders Famulous) all with differing specialisations. Or maybe just a dozen. Either way, I don't see a cap there.
ClockworkZion wrote:21,000 isn't a large standing force for the amount of work they have to do
If you subtract stuff like the protection of pilgrims or guarding holy sites, I think it is. 21k is the Major Orders who are more concerned with waging holy wars. Purity sweeps, Inquisitorial joint ops, playing bodyguard is all Minor Orders stuff.
But I think I've pointed this division of tasks out before. That doesn't make it less critical to the question at hand, though.
ClockworkZion wrote:and with the fluff being the way it is the numbers fluctuate so wildly that the true miracle is that non of the Major Orders have been wiped out
It's not a miracle considering that the fluff explicitly points out that even at the times of highest casualties they always kept a number of Sisters back in the primary Convent, and the supply from novices trained in the Orders Famulous facilities would not cease even when 99% of the Major Order they are being transferred to has been wiped out.
It is worth pointing out that the Order of Our Martyred Lady switched to red robes because of the losses they incurred on Armageddon, though.
ClockworkZion wrote:Space Marines also have a more established fluff on why they only have so many. They have smaller population counts to draw from, some don't survive the implant process, the low count enforced because they essentially screwed the pooch and the Heresy happened, ect.
A single Chapter may have a small population to draw from ("only" upwards of an entire planet), but as an organisation? No. If the Imperium wanted, they could just as well raise a thousand Chapters more, with a thousand world and more to draw further recruits from. You only need a single planet to supply an entire Marine Chapter with recruits, right? How many planets does the Imperium have?
So, we are left with a political decision. Yet, do you really not see a connection to the Decree Passive forced upon the Adeptus Ministorum? Wouldn't you consider that flaunting the spirit of the law this openly, by essentially clinging to a legal trick, is walking a fairly thin line - one that the Ecclesiarch may not want to cross even further in light of the watchful eyes of the Ordo Hereticus?
... coming to think of it, the Minor Orders may be the Ecclesiarchy's way of "hiding" their strength similar to how the Black Templars do it with their Crusades.
*: I think "Non-Militant" may even be a completely unofficial catchall term for everything that isn't Battle Sisters. As far as the Ecclesiarchy and Adepta Sororitas are concerned, there are just the "Orders Militant", "Orders Famulous", "Orders Hospitaller", "Orders Pronatus", "Orders Dialogous", "Orders Sabine", ... etc
I believe that the book with the Hospitaller defending against a Tyranid horde was the second Uriel Ventris novel, better known for Uriel rhino-surfing and then shooting a Norn Queen with hellfire rounds.
ClockworkZion wrote:Praxedes proves that they are willing to change fluff rather nicely. Oh and Jaconus isn't dead now, Celestine has no references to being nuked (and is now 500% more miraculous than before). I'm sure I can find more if I really tried.
Can you find something about the numbers, though?
No, which neither proves or disproves anything, just leaves us referencing older stuff in hopes that we can find something.
ClockworkZion wrote:What about our merry excursion to a Daemon infested world?
I'd rather have old Praxedes back. In its own way, the legend surrounding her MIA status was more "epic" than a bunch of Sisters shooting a path through a Daemon world. Praxedes was Sainted for her sacrifice, and I could easily see her story and myth spreading through entire sectors. The recovery of someone's left thighbone from a Daemon world, on the other hand? That just sounds like "every Tuesday" for the Orders Militant, if you permit the exaggeration. Praxedes was unique.
Perhaps it's just the way it was written, with the whole thing having been explained in but three sentences. I admit it has potential to be made more dramatic by giving this incident more "personality" rather than just being like "they went there, killed a few daemons, lost a few Sisters, then dusted off again".
Don't get me wrong - it's certainly not bad, but if I were permitted to choose ...
Thigh bone and pages of religious text actually. But I get what your saying.
ClockworkZion wrote:Not all relics are in churches, holy sites or on shrine worlds (we also have an order who collects and stores them, remember?). Additionally all churches and holy sites aren't on shrine worlds.
Every church, every shrine, and every shrine world is a holy site by default. The Orders Pronatus collect Imperial relics but they don't store them - what they do store is relics and technology deemed dangerous to the Imperium. As far as I can see, proper Imperial relics are either kept safe at a shrine or vault on holy ground, or are carried into battle by the Sisters ... and sometimes certain clerics, though less often than the SoB do. I do remember a line in the 2E Codex about lots of priests being like "nnnooo don't touch it" in regards to the Sisters' affinity to actually take a relic OUT of its safe shrine and take it for a walk on some battlefield.
In addition to all of those holy sites though we also have things like "the Emperor stood here" and "here is where Saint soandso healed the sick", ect. Any site of high enough signifigance counts as a Holy Site, be they church, shrine or other.
ClockworkZion wrote:And the clinics things is from the 2nd Ed codex about Hospitallers (also I said Field Hospital...kinda like a MASH unit, only less comedy than the show).
I'll re-check, but from memory the Hospitallers serve the military and the Inquisition, and sometimes a Rogue Trader in good standing with the Ecclesiarchy.
It may well be that they also aid the poor, but how often/much?
Often enough that it was made a defining characteristic in the 2nd Ed codex at least.
ClockworkZion wrote:If we're locking numbers down on militant orders it locks down numbers down on non-militant orders too, because they can't (per fluff) outnumber the militants.
Not necessarily - going by the Liber Sororitas, it's not a comparison of Militant to Non-Militant, but specific sub-sections of the Non-Militant ones*:
"Some orders, such as the Orders Dialogus and Famulous, are known to be as large as the Orders Militant, whereas others may be little more than a handful of Sisters pursuing their obscure specialization. The cloisters of the Convents Prioris and Sanctorum are vast and winding, and those who oversee them may not even know the full extent of those that toil within the gloomy chambers."
There is no exact limitation on the overall number of Non-Militant Orders, just the provision that none of them may rise above the total number of Battle Sisters in terms of membership. In other words, there could be a hundred Orders (all with individual convents, like the Order of the Gate and the Order of the Holy Seal are both Orders Famulous) all with differing specialisations. Or maybe just a dozen. Either way, I don't see a cap there.
Fair enough. I'm just going to point out that your loose interpretation of the fluff is no worse than mine.
ClockworkZion wrote:21,000 isn't a large standing force for the amount of work they have to do
If you subtract stuff like the protection of pilgrims or guarding holy sites, I think it is. 21k is the Major Orders who are more concerned with waging holy wars. Purity sweeps, Inquisitorial joint ops, playing bodyguard is all Minor Orders stuff.
But I think I've pointed this division of tasks out before. That doesn't make it less critical to the question at hand, though.
So basically your head canon is that the 21K only counts those who are actively engaged in conflicts or are able to engage in conflicts?
Still pretty lowball, but it's better than what currently exists.
ClockworkZion wrote:and with the fluff being the way it is the numbers fluctuate so wildly that the true miracle is that non of the Major Orders have been wiped out
It's not a miracle considering that the fluff explicitly points out that even at the times of highest casualties they always kept a number of Sisters back in the primary Convent, and the supply from novices trained in the Orders Famulous facilities would not cease even when 99% of the Major Order they are being transferred to has been wiped out.
It is worth pointing out that the Order of Our Martyred Lady switched to red robes because of the losses they incurred on Armageddon, though.
According to 2nd Ed the Orders end up as low as a few hundred warriors at times all who are deployed and engaged in conflict. I'd say that's a bit risky and makes it more likely the order could potentially end up getting killed off. Even Marines see only having a few hundred total bodies as a "bad thing".
ClockworkZion wrote:Space Marines also have a more established fluff on why they only have so many. They have smaller population counts to draw from, some don't survive the implant process, the low count enforced because they essentially screwed the pooch and the Heresy happened, ect.
A single Chapter may have a small population to draw from ("only" upwards of an entire planet), but as an organisation? No. If the Imperium wanted, they could just as well raise a thousand Chapters more, with a thousand world and more to draw further recruits from. You only need a single planet to supply an entire Marine Chapter with recruits, right? How many planets does the Imperium have?
The point was more that the fluff goes into reasons why the Marines are capped. The Sisters does not. If we're going to live with an artificial glass ceiling I'd like to know why.
Lynata wrote: So, we are left with a political decision. Yet, do you really not see a connection to the Decree Passive forced upon the Adeptus Ministorum? Wouldn't you consider that flaunting the spirit of the law this openly, by essentially clinging to a legal trick, is walking a fairly thin line - one that the Ecclesiarch may not want to cross even further in light of the watchful eyes of the Ordo Hereticus?
... coming to think of it, the Minor Orders may be the Ecclesiarchy's way of "hiding" their strength similar to how the Black Templars do it with their Crusades.
You're reaching a bit I think. It doesn't make it wrong, but it does mean your stretching the fluff a bit.
Lynata wrote: *: I think "Non-Militant" may even be a completely unofficial catchall term for everything that isn't Battle Sisters. As far as the Ecclesiarchy and Adepta Sororitas are concerned, there are just the "Orders Militant", "Orders Famulous", "Orders Hospitaller", "Orders Pronatus", "Orders Dialogous", "Orders Sabine", ... etc
I'd rather have old Praxedes back. In its own way, the legend surrounding her MIA status was more "epic" than a bunch of Sisters shooting a path through a Daemon world. Praxedes was Sainted for her sacrifice, and I could easily see her story and myth spreading through entire sectors. The recovery of someone's left thighbone from a Daemon world, on the other hand? That just sounds like "every Tuesday" for the Orders Militant, if you permit the exaggeration. Praxedes was unique.
It might be every Tuesday, but to them it's something to be done regardless of rank. Why would they care for glorious battle when they need something to be saved?
ClockworkZion wrote:No, which neither proves or disproves anything, just leaves us referencing older stuff in hopes that we can find something.
True - I should point out that this is how I treat the fluff in general, though, regardless of whether it's about Sisters or not. As long as there's no clear contradiction in newer material, anyways. There's so much detail that would get lost if we would not dig up old fluff ... such as the very informative description of Marine power armour in the Codex Angels of Death, or the Inquisitorial stuff in the 3E books and the Inquisitor RPG, etc.
I'm probably like most fans in that I like to see the setting as something bigger than just what we're told in one or two books - with the difference that most people these days seem to go by various Black Library novels whereas I'm digging up GW's own writings from sources that could be called "less accessible" ...
ClockworkZion wrote:In addition to all of those holy sites though we also have things like "the Emperor stood here" and "here is where Saint soandso healed the sick", ect. Any site of high enough signifigance counts as a Holy Site, be they church, shrine or other.
That's why I meant we could just sum it all up as "holy sites". Such places of significance will draw attention from both the people (pilgrims) as well as the Ecclesiarchy (services).
We just disagree on how likely a physical presence is at any one such site, I suppose. "Realistically", if we were to say that each and every holy site has Sisters attached to it, you'd probably see a squad of Battle Sisters in every city on every planet because it'll have a church and priests. That's just not "my 40k", I guess. Power armour and boltguns aren't that common for me, even aside from any recruitment issues that may or may not exist.
ClockworkZion wrote:Fair enough. I'm just going to point out that your loose interpretation of the fluff is no worse than mine.
Hey, for once I was trying to help you get higher numbers there!
ClockworkZion wrote:So basically your head canon is that the 21K only counts those who are actively engaged in conflicts or are able to engage in conflicts?
The 21k is the estimated headcount for the six Major Orders Militant towards the end of M41 - that much we can gain from the numbers stated in the 2E Codex ("between 3-4k", multiplied by 6).
My headcanon is the number of Battle Sisters from the Minor Orders that exist in addition to these 21k, and I'll freely admit that those ~70k are a very arbitrary number, to which I came solely by looking at how the Sororitas expanded over the millennia, and then trying to decide on an overall number that would reflect this development. I settled for 100k and deducted 1/3 to account for the six Major Orders whose numbers we have in the Codex.
With the average Minor Order having around a hundred Sisters (some more, some less), this could yield a thousand Minor Orders to take care of "local matters" across the Imperium, deploying individual Sisters or entire squads to stand vigil at "nearby" shrines and to guard important Ecclesiarchy officials, accompany pilgrim transports and perform purity sweeps, or respond to the occasional request of assistance from the Ordo Hereticus. There could even be entire Orders garrisoning a shrine world.
Sometimes the Minor Orders may get dragged into a larger conflict as well (see the Force Disposition Chart of the 13th Black Crusade again), but it wouldn't be their main task. The Major Orders have more troops and (supposedly) their own ships and so are much more mobile and capable in terms of military action, whereas the Minor Orders take care of all those other tasks.
Thinking about it, this even ties in with how the Minor Orders came to be in the first place - the Major Orders were always based on Terra and Ophelia, and to perform all those other duties (protecting important holy sites, playing bodyguard, safeguarding pilgrim routes) they obviously had to create subsidiary bases throughout the Imperium. In M38 this led to these convents officially splitting off from their maternal Order Maioris and leading to the birth of the Minor Orders, in turn freeing up the Major Orders to focus on larger stuff.
It even explains why the Order of Our Martyred Lady already had a base on Armageddon prior to the Third War when this is what one would expect of a Minor Order such as the Order of the Ermine Mantle on Subiaco Diablo ... it must have been a detachment that did not yet split off from the main order, possibly due to the importance of Armageddon, or because the convent is only a few centuries old? (given that there is no mention of these Sisters in the First War when everything there was full of daemons and CSM)
Yay, more speculation! Anyways, I hope this wasn't just a big misunderstanding and you thought I'd argue for only the 21k of the Major Orders. Though even with 100k my headcanon seems way off from the millions that are being argued in this thread.
ClockworkZion wrote:According to 2nd Ed the Orders end up as low as a few hundred warriors at times all who are deployed and engaged in conflict. I'd say that's a bit risky and makes it more likely the order could potentially end up getting killed off. Even Marines see only having a few hundred total bodies as a "bad thing".
Well, Marines are not only smaller, they also have no outside agency like the Orders Famulous providing them with fully trained Sisters and need to train their Scouts themselves. Their units also seem much more interlinked - casualties in the Battle Companies will drain the Reserves with transfers, which in turn also means there's fewer drivers for their vehicles etc. With the Sisters of Battle, every squad acts independently of one another. In terms of logistics vs tactics, I suppose that's a blessing and a curse ...
Anyways, I think the Marines see "only having a few hundred total bodies as a bad thing" not just because they'd like to have more men, but also because it likely means they lost a fethton of geneseed in some huge battle. The Celestial Lions still have 96 Marines, but the Chapter is doomed to extinction because even with new recruits they couldn't implant them as they've lost every Apothecary and too much geneseed. And even if a Chapter would still be in a position to train new recruits it'd be severely handicapped by its size and would have to limit its operations. Sisters in such a situation would just requisition reinforcements from another Order in the form of novices, veterans and support specialists. As the Liber Sororitas notes, the orders are much more compatible to each other, and transfers are not a rarity. Bonus: novices get trained by the Orders Famulous, so any new Sister that joins an Order Militant can be deployed to the field immediately rather than having to spend a decade in some Astartes Scout Company.
ClockworkZion wrote:The point was more that the fluff goes into reasons why the Marines are capped. The Sisters does not. If we're going to live with an artificial glass ceiling I'd like to know why.
The connection to SoB numbers may not be explicitly stated, but "the High Lords don't want the Ecclesiarchy to have military power" was written in the Codex fluff, as well as the Inquisition going into yellow alert and calling a conclave on the issue.
For me, that's at least enough to play Devil's Advocate and defend GW's numbers. I do understand the scepticism, but I guess it depends on how much one wants or does not want this to work out. I'm clearly in the former camp. As I said, it lets me sleep easier with how little the SoB show up in the fluff. But where they show up, they make it count. I can live with that.
For what it's worth, I've also done this justification game for the 1k Space Marines per Chapter, or why SM would use Rhinos instead of Chimaeras, or why the lasgun is so popular...
I guess I just enjoy the challenge of trying to find "excuses" for whatever it says in the books - as long as I have no problem with what's written there, that is. I tend to be just as biased as any fan, though I'm trying hard to find a moderate ground and stick to principles.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:It might be every Tuesday, but to them it's something to be done regardless of rank. Why would they care for glorious battle when they need something to be saved?
Oh, don't get me wrong - this was just personal preference by me as a reader and fan, rather than how it would be seen by the Sisters.
(though I'm sure that Praxedes' legend would inspire many a young novice! paragons and examples are important)
TheSaintofKillers wrote:Marines being hurt by small arms...........You seem to be a bit out of touch, normal human strongmen are basically immune to small arms due to sheer muscle density and volume. (it wont reach an organ and will get lodged in only the first 2-3 inches of straight muscle. There's a lot more muscle than that before the organs.
A 9mm Beretta pistol and an M16 are both "small arms". A 9mm handgun will also quite neatly kill a professional bodybuilder. Your muscle mass might help stop the bullet from actually piercing your lung, but it does nothing to stop hydrostatic shock rippling through your torso and causing massive internal bleeding and pulping your spleen. The thing about guns is, they don't care how strong you are or how skilled you are, they're an excellent force-equalizer. If they weren't, we'd be using something else.
"Small Arms" as defined by the US DoD:
Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms. US Department of Defense 2005. wrote:Man portable, individual, and crew-served weapon systems used mainly against personnel and lightly armored or unarmored equipment.
Also, one of the SM omnibus collections, it has Marines being beaten to death by a mob of humans armed with sticks and rocks. They're not bulletproof.
Lynata wrote: As the Liber Sororitas notes, the orders are much more compatible to each other, and transfers are not a rarity. Bonus: novices get trained by the Orders Famulous, so any new Sister that joins an Order Militant can be deployed to the field immediately rather than having to spend a decade in some Astartes Scout Company.
Huh. I didn't know that (I don't have the Liber Sororitas). So the girls train at the Schola Progenium until, what, age 12, and then are trained during their Novitiate (to, what, age 16? 18?) by the Famulous? How does that work?
It strikes me as odd since the Famulous are described explicitly as non-military -- not non-combatant, even the goddamn babies are combatants in the grimdarkverse, as soon as they get their first tooth they'll bite your legs off -- but specialized in intrigue, diplomacy and maybe the occasional assassination. They seem an odd choice to train Battle Sisters, who'd need intensive tactical and physical training, or for that matter Hospitallers, who'd need specialized medical knowledge, or Dialogus linguists, etc. etc.
There is a single regiment of Imperial Guard Storm Troopers, and 2E Codex fluff has declared its size with 10.000 troops. That is even less than there are Battle Sisters - does that mean they are more awesome?
So with the new SoB codex around the corner , anyone thinks they will get more viable. With some plastic models they could be a nice ally to imperial guard armies . Unless they don't rise the pre model cost that is.
I don't think that they'll be majorly changed, I think they're just gaining the trappings of a 6e codex until an actual codex, with accompanying models, comes. But we'll see what happens.
But hey, they're perfectly viable as is. As for allies, stick Uriah Jacobus in a guardsman blob. He gives +1 attacks and FNP. Fun!
A different question: Do we know how many Cardinals and how many Shrine Worlds there are? I'd argue that each of those things should get its own Minor Order for local self-defense.
All I can recall is that Sebastian Thor reformed the Ecclesiarchy to disperse power into more Cardinals with smaller dioceses....
Troike wrote: I don't think that they'll be majorly changed, I think they're just gaining the trappings of a 6e codex until an actual codex, with accompanying models, comes. But we'll see what happens.
But hey, they're perfectly viable as is. As for allies, stick Uriah Jacobus in a guardsman blob. He gives +1 attacks and FNP. Fun!
I think we might see some points adjustments, namely to fit in with 6th Ed better. Namely drops on Heavy Flamers and Battle Sister Squads. But that's just me thinking wishfully I guess.
Troike wrote: I don't think that they'll be majorly changed, I think they're just gaining the trappings of a 6e codex until an actual codex, with accompanying models, comes. But we'll see what happens.
But hey, they're perfectly viable as is. As for allies, stick Uriah Jacobus in a guardsman blob. He gives +1 attacks and FNP. Fun!
I think we might see some points adjustments, namely to fit in with 6th Ed better. Namely drops on Heavy Flamers and Battle Sister Squads. But that's just me thinking wishfully I guess.
I doubt they will modify anything that is already written. They may add a few little hings like warlord traits but I wouldn't expect anything else s that sounds they are expending effort on it. Iknowthey say they are being worked onfor a full new codex and models but we have heard it all before, so I will believe it when I see it in my hands.
Troike wrote: I don't think that they'll be majorly changed, I think they're just gaining the trappings of a 6e codex until an actual codex, with accompanying models, comes. But we'll see what happens.
But hey, they're perfectly viable as is. As for allies, stick Uriah Jacobus in a guardsman blob. He gives +1 attacks and FNP. Fun!
I think we might see some points adjustments, namely to fit in with 6th Ed better. Namely drops on Heavy Flamers and Battle Sister Squads. But that's just me thinking wishfully I guess.
I doubt they will modify anything that is already written. They may add a few little hings like warlord traits but I wouldn't expect anything else s that sounds they are expending effort on it. Iknowthey say they are being worked onfor a full new codex and models but we have heard it all before, so I will believe it when I see it in my hands.
Changing 12 to 10 isn't exactly that hard.
That said I did say "might" as in "there is a chance, but it is not certain".
Troike wrote: I don't think that they'll be majorly changed, I think they're just gaining the trappings of a 6e codex until an actual codex, with accompanying models, comes. But we'll see what happens.
But hey, they're perfectly viable as is. As for allies, stick Uriah Jacobus in a guardsman blob. He gives +1 attacks and FNP. Fun!
I think we might see some points adjustments, namely to fit in with 6th Ed better. Namely drops on Heavy Flamers and Battle Sister Squads. But that's just me thinking wishfully I guess.
I doubt they will modify anything that is already written. They may add a few little hings like warlord traits but I wouldn't expect anything else s that sounds they are expending effort on it. Iknowthey say they are being worked onfor a full new codex and models but we have heard it all before, so I will believe it when I see it in my hands.
They've had long enough, its entirely possible there's a complete dex sitting there waiting on models, and the WD dex is actually a draft version of it they threw out to keep sisters players happy while they waited for the models to be plausible. They'd have had to re-write it for 6th anyway, so...
They're going to have to re-word it first for sure, then the editor has to go through it.
But then the design team (not rules studio, but the guys who lay out the books) have to layout in any digital and print formats if relevant, and re-style and apply and draw art assets (like the funny borders and backgrounds they like to have in the new full colour books) to fit the 6th edition aesthetic which the old WD article won't.
There's a lot more work than just making up the rules and faqs. The 6th edition codices are actually exquisite compared with the majority of game rulebooks out there and are technically superior to even the Forge World ones (bar pehaps the HH books) in design effort.
So yeah, with all that work being expected not making other changes would be a bit odd.
And we should be expecting this work too as the WD codex was made for a magazine, not for a tablet or ereader and the unit description section was an intentionally disorganized mess to keep us from guessing what was in what slot until the second half came out.
Nobody_Holme wrote: They've had long enough, its entirely possible there's a complete dex sitting there waiting on models, and the WD dex is actually a draft version of it they threw out to keep sisters players happy while they waited for the models to be plausible. They'd have had to re-write it for 6th anyway, so...
I doubt any of us are happy with the current situation and when the codex rolled out in 5th I generally believed that it sucked. In 6th it is functionally a lot better, but its not very much fun to play IMO. I can make a pretty hard list with it in fact, but its not what I want from the codex. Further its a very unforgiving army to play.
SisterSydney wrote:Huh. I didn't know that (I don't have the Liber Sororitas). So the girls train at the Schola Progenium until, what, age 12, and then are trained during their Novitiate (to, what, age 16? 18?) by the Famulous? How does that work?
It strikes me as odd since the Famulous are described explicitly as non-military -- not non-combatant, even the goddamn babies are combatants in the grimdarkverse, as soon as they get their first tooth they'll bite your legs off -- but specialized in intrigue, diplomacy and maybe the occasional assassination. They seem an odd choice to train Battle Sisters, who'd need intensive tactical and physical training, or for that matter Hospitallers, who'd need specialized medical knowledge, or Dialogus linguists, etc. etc.
That's actually not from the Liber Sororitas but one of those little known things I ripped out of the articles about Anastasia and Ephrael Stern that were posted on the GW website:
"Raised at the Schola Progenium facility at Antigone's Harbour, Rosetta Anastasia was singled out by the Order Famulous as a potential recruit for the Adepta Sororitas at the age of twelve years. The agents of the Sisterhood were impressed by her pious spirit, which, matched with her latent fighting skills, made her ideal material for the battle sisters of the Orders Militant. During her period as a Novice, Anastasia was indoctrinated into the ancient beliefs and traditions of the Sisterhood. [...]
At the age of seventeen, Anastasia stood with five hundred of her fellow Novices and took the Oaths of Adherence in the Ecclesiarchal Palace on Terra. The Ecclesiarch himself blessed the assembled Novices in a ceremony that lasted throughout the night, and culminated at dawn with a superior from each of the Orders Militant stepping forward to lead each of the girls off to don the armour of their new Order for the very first time. [...]" - archived GW: Inquisitor RPG, Sister Anastasia
"Regardless of her unknown roots, it is evident that Stern was singled out from an early age as a candidate for the Adepta Sororitas. The Arch Drill-abbot of the Schola Progenium submitted her for consideration, and one Sister Patricia of the Order of the Holy Seal accepted her, shipping her out on the next available vessel bound for Terra.
The records of Stern's period as a Novice indicate that she excelled during all the stringent trials and ordeals required of her, and she took the Oaths of Adherence along with five hundred other Novices at the Eclessiarchal Palace on Terra. At the completion of the night-long ceremony she was chosen to join the Order of our Martyred Lady, and dispatched to Ophelia VII." - archived GW: Villainy & Infamy, Ephrael Stern (note: the Order of the Holy Seal is an Order Famulous, too, based in ... the Convent Prioris, Terra)
To my knowledge, there's no explicit general description of what actually happens between Schola indoctrination and being a full Sister, but the only two accounts that mention the experiences from different individuals happen to be consistent enough for me to consider this as a standard for now.
It's worth pointing out that the Orders Famulous have at times been described not only as diplomats, but also as chamberlains and governesses, in the latter role assuming responsibility for the education of children of Imperial nobility. Given that Schola indoctrination and training is very general and has nothing to do with the Adepta Sororitas (obviously contradicted by Mitchell's novels, mind you), a Schola graduate who has been accepted into the Sisterhood need additional tutoring in the Sororitas' ways. Apparently, a Novice Sister's eventual assignment is not chosen/declared until after she has finished her novitiate, so Famulous training would be something that is deemed useful for all the Orders, such as history and prayers, but also first aid, combat, or the use and maintenance of certain general equipment that could be found in any convent (for example boltguns). The Famulous also need to crank up the existing brainwashing and turn an already devoted mind into one that appreciates and shares her fellow Sisters' penchant for humility, penance and corporal mortification.
As the 2E Codex already hinted at, Order-specific training would follow when a freshly anointed Sister is "adopted" by a Sister Superior, who would build on anything the new member of her squad would have learned before. A possible example that springs to my mind could be a Superior from the Orders Hospitaller using a new "adoptee" first only as an assisting nurse, but slowly expanding her skillset from the basic first aid she already knows from her novitiate to proper surgery. A Superior from the Orders Militant on the other hand would deepen a talented Sister's experience with special weapons such as melta or flamer.
That's how I'm connecting the dots, anyways. Does it make sense?
Makumba wrote:So with the new SoB codex around the corner , anyone thinks they will get more viable. With some plastic models they could be a nice ally to imperial guard armies . Unless they don't rise the pre model cost that is.
One can only hope. I will see them as viable as soon as the Codex doesn't try to "force" me to field a Special Character as HQ anymore. Give us back our old Kickass Canoness and her Wargear dammit!
They don't even need plastic kits imo, GW just needs to market them in a 10-girl box again just like they do with the Valhallans or Iron Guard. Price difference to plastic Cadians is minimal, at least in UK. That being said, I know that a lot of other fans would prefer plastic for conversion work. Matter of preferences, I suppose.
That's fascinating stuff. Doesn't completely rule out there being other forms and even other locations for initiation from Novice to Battle Sister, but given that Anastasia was sent from somewhere all the way to Terra and then all the way back out to the Cadian region, which is hella far away, it strongly suggests that even far-flung Minor Orders get all their personnel directly from the Eclessiarchal Palace, which means a lot of shuffling teenage girls back and forth across the galaxy.
SisterSydney wrote: That's fascinating stuff. Doesn't completely rule out there being other forms and even other locations for initiation from Novice to Battle Sister, but given that Anastasia was sent from somewhere all the way to Terra and then all the way back out to the Cadian region, which is hella far away, it strongly suggests that even far-flung Minor Orders get all their personnel directly from the Eclessiarchal Palace, which means a lot of shuffling teenage girls back and forth across the galaxy.
Sisters are trained on Terra and Ophelia VII, they just get their actual "swearing in" on Terra it seems.
"Lost in Space", a webcomic by artist Jordan Mead that was hosted on Librarium Online ages ago. It's long offline, but I happen to have a huge folder of it, and there's more where that came from.
Spoiler:
And something for the Space Marines
Spoiler:
Imperial Guard!
Spoiler:
IG + SW
Spoiler:
I should maybe re-upload the entire archive again somewhere some day... I've done that in the past and specifically asked his permission to do so. This stuff is way too funny to not be posted somewhere.
Ah, yes... Lost in Space, the one time a comic artist got away with portraying the Sisters in a comedic and lighthearted way without getting slaughtered by the fanbase.
Probably because that one with the Mistress establishing her position in the Chain of Command makes up for all the sex jokes... (and the armour really does stay on).
Myself, don't really care too much about the minutia fluff of the universe, Sisters are my favorite army for the aesthetics and that's good enough for me.
But yeah, she's also another cool Sister. Stars in 
.
