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One could certainly follow that approach - I don't, as I'm going by certain anecdotal (and thus certainly not entirely trustworthy) evidence pointing to smaller numbers:

#1 The absence of a detachment of Battle Sisters to protect the Cathedral of Bladen against a CSM invasion in 143.M41, as mentioned in Codex: Citystrike on page 68:
"The Ecclesiarchy was strong on Bladen, and Massena was the site of their greatest cathedral. The Mission of the Emperor Triumphant was the oldest Ecclesiarchy building in the sub-sector, built on the site of an Apothecarion said to have been founded during the Great Crusade. It was a place where the Emperor himself was believed to have trod."
Yet for all its importance, there was not a single Battle Sister on-site to protect this sacred ground, the only defenders being the attendant clergy and a regiment of Cadian Shock Troops.

#2 The low number of Minor Orders involved in the defence of the Cadian sector during the 13th Black Crusade:
Force Disposition Chart as printed in Codex: Eye of Terror and the 40k 6th Edition Rulebook
Two Minor Orders doesn't sound much for an entire sector. We don't know where exactly the convent of the Wounded Heart is located, but thanks to the background of Sister Anastasia we know the Ermine Mantle is based in Hive Siana on Subiaco Diablo, of the Belis Corona subsector bordering the Cadian Gate.

#3 It is regarded as normal that the first line of defence against an assault on Ecclesiarchy proper does not consist of the Sisters of Battle but rather the clerics and the Frateris Militia:
"Imperial Shrines form main defence points against an alien invasion. If a Chaos, Ork or Eldar army descends upon a planet, the citizens would usually rally around the Frateris Clergy and defend their Shrines and temples from the alien invaders. [...] Preachers, Confessors, and Missionaries are often the first to discover hidden cults, confront alien invaders and generally get into trouble."
- WD #121

Ultimately, I think there are two big misconceptions at work:
- The priests are helpless
This is not so, as the Imperial Cult is a militant church and its members are expected to fight and die for their faith. Priests accompany Guardsmen into battle, leading from the front with massive chainswords and bellowing fanatical prayers, or stir the masses of their local civilian congregation into a religious frenzy to instigate a witch- or mutant-hunting pogrom and cleanse their world from taint. The clergy is not defenseless and, although missing the Sisters power armour or military training, are usually no less devoted to protect their temples, and they tend to be able to recruit large amounts of militia to aid them in this task.
- There is a sort of "progression formula" for badassness in 40k
This directly ties into the "chart" you posted at the end of your post, and I believe a lot, if not most fans are falling into this trap (warning: subjective statement!). There is a single regiment of Imperial Guard Storm Troopers, and 2E Codex fluff has declared its size with 10.000 troops. That is even less than there are Battle Sisters - does that mean they are more awesome?

It's all just interpretation, though. For example, one could theorise that there were no Battle Sisters on Bladen because they were already in combat elsewhere, or were already killed in an earlier attack/counterattack. One could theorise that the Force Disposition Chart is very incomplete and that the number of Minor Orders is ten or a hundred times the number actually stated. In the end, there can be no single "right" answer, just personal preferences based on whatever sources we've read and which idea we like more. Such is the curse and blessing of how this franchise's background is intended to work.

Only 10,000 Stormtroopers in the entire Imperium? Science-fiction writers have no sense of scale.

Or, the fans expect everything to follow some sort of formula where it could just as well be a matter of tradition, politics, strategy, or sheer coincidence. There should be a trope for that, too.

The Storm Trooper regiment works by never deploying in full force but sending out individual squads and companies to attach to other regiments in important war zones. Since this kind of extra-sector response follows the standard response escalation doctrine of the Adeptus Munitorum as most recently described in the 5E Codex, this means you will only ever see them show up at particularly important battles and campaigns, such as the Third War of Armageddon. Consequently, you don't need a big number of them, assuming that there simply is not a huge number of particularly important battles and campaigns throughout the Imperium at any one moment in time.

I realise I'm playing Devil's Advocate here - but I actually enjoy finding possible explanations for various things claimed in the books, at least where it's not too outrageous,,.

In response to the OP, I have, essentially 2 answers.

1. When I first decided to play SoB it was because I wanted an army that could field 3+ Armour save troops, and I really (really, you have no idea) did not want a SM army. However, with time, they really grew on me. Hence I am still a fan because . . .

2. I feel the SoB, as a faction, best embody the things that make 40K distinct and awesome. Giant Space Cathedrals for star-ships are definitively 40K, and so too are over-decorated tanks who's main gun is a pipe organ that shoots rockets. A 40k without SoBs would not be itself.

 Troike wrote:

- A Sister who drinks, gambles, and has secret affairs. Needless to say, this completely contradicts their fluff of being insanely dedicated to their duties, spending their days praying and training.

Sometimes human beings contradict their organizations fluff. A lot of the time, even - that's what makes them human beings. In my experience soldiers, and even elite soldiers who take their training and their duties very, very seriously - often still make time for drinking, gambling, and sex. So do a lot of religious leaders. It's too bad more SoB are not portrayed as something more than a block of monolithic "I am brave and virtuous, but for my one flaw of single minded fantacism and inflexible thinking."

 Hollowman wrote:
Sometimes human beings contradict their organizations fluff. A lot of the time, even - that's what makes them human beings. In my experience soldiers, and even elite soldiers who take their training and their duties very, very seriously - often still make time for drinking, gambling, and sex. So do a lot of religious leaders. It's too bad more SoB are not portrayed as something more than a block of monolithic "I am brave and virtuous, but for my one flaw of single minded fantacism and inflexible thinking."

But the SoB aren't present-day, ordinary soldiers, nor present-day clergymen. They are extremely indoctrinated individuals. One of their codices, I think the WH one, notes that they live lives of "extreme self-denail", forgoing any distractions in favour of focusing on devotion to the Emperor. The 5e codex reiterates this, saying that when the Sisters aren't at war, they divide their time between training and worship. A Sister, being consistently and intensely indoctrinated from a very early age, is not going to see gambling or casaul affairs as worth her time, and would instead be at prayer or training. To put it in context, this is like having an easygoing, prankster Krieg guardsman or a lazy Ultramarine.

 Lynata wrote:
One could certainly follow that approach - I don't, as I'm going by certain anecdotal (and thus certainly not entirely trustworthy) evidence pointing to smaller numbers:

Or we could just accept that GW is lazy and makes stupid decisions because of this. All the freaking time. GW is not staffed, for the most part, by good, consistent writers. Many of their writers seem to act like the Imperium's miltiary doesn't exist aside from the Space Marines, even. They conveniently forget about elements of the setting to try to make a "good story".

 Troike wrote:

 Hollowman wrote:
Sometimes human beings contradict their organizations fluff. A lot of the time, even - that's what makes them human beings. In my experience soldiers, and even elite soldiers who take their training and their duties very, very seriously - often still make time for drinking, gambling, and sex. So do a lot of religious leaders. It's too bad more SoB are not portrayed as something more than a block of monolithic "I am brave and virtuous, but for my one flaw of single minded fantacism and inflexible thinking."

But the SoB aren't present-day, ordinary soldiers, nor present-day clergymen. They are extremely indoctrinated individuals. One of their codices, I think the WH one, notes that they live lives of "extreme self-denail", forgoing any distractions in favour of focusing on devotion to the Emperor. The 5e codex reiterates this, saying that when the Sisters aren't at war, they divide their time between training and worship. A Sister, being consistently and intensely indoctrinated from a very early age, is not going to see gambling or casaul affairs as worth her time, and would instead be at prayer or training. To put it in context, this is like having an easygoing, prankster Krieg guardsman or a lazy Ultramarine.

As odd as it sounds, I do agree with him. There are variances within cultures so that not everyone will be 100% the same (Except death korps, but then again they use illegal cloning..) Even ultramarines could have lazy ones, considering they have plenty of Ultramarines who have lapsed and turned to Chaos. I think a little lazyness is a bit lesser then that.

There is a possibility for lapsed sisters, should they not be around the monastery and fall prey to deviance.

Not to mention you have to remember most of everyone within the culture is indoctrinated in the Emporer's Will within 40k, the only ones who aren't are the Space Marines and even then you have a few who worship him as a complete and utter god. You'll find Guardsmen who have come from religious planets, clergy who lead armies of unwashed masses who would die in his name. And yet all of these people can still fall pray to weakness and Chaos. Not everyone is as dedicated, some will be purer then others.

My headcanon is a lot of Sisters feel their faith deeply but wear it lightly: They've been immersed in it since girlhood, they don't need to rant about it all the time. They just get really, really shocked and upset when someone says something impugning the Ecclesiarchy or the Imperial Cult. It'd be like, say, how we Americans think about our personal freedoms (free speech, free elections, free markets, etc.): Only a few of us go on about them all the time, but if we think someone's trespassed against them (e.g. the NSA), we freak the feth out. The difference is that when Sisters freak out, things catch on fire.

Plus, being much more a fan of Joss Whedon than Matt Ward, I can't imagine an entire army of badass women who don't have a dark and snarky sense of humor. Hence this thread.

To put it frankly, I think people who "hate" the sisters comes from their price tag for fielding a whole army of them and less than their fluff. (Before you sister haters jump on me, not speaking for individuals but a group as a whole) The price tag for 3 sisters with bolters are 18USD, 12 for individual sisters or more. I personally like the sisters but I will continue to woe their price tag. As far as fluff is concerned most of the fans in this thread have already spoken for me.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
As odd as it sounds, I do agree with him. There are variances within cultures so that not everyone will be 100% the same

Yes, but few cultures undergo such intense indoctrination as the Sisters. And it's constantly reinforced. Every day, they're training or prayer. One could even make the point that they would likely not have the social experience not desire to engage in gambling or casual sex, as they've lived their whole lives essentially just at war, praying, and training.

I wish I could find the exact quote that I referenced. It really does a good job of showing just how deeply the Sisters are set in their ways.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Even ultramarines could have lazy ones, considering they have plenty of Ultramarines who have lapsed and turned to Chaos. I think a little lazyness is a bit lesser then that.

Doubtful. They too are intensely indoctrinated, and even undergo hypnotic treatments to bolster said indoctrination. Chaos corruption usually gets in through arrogance or doubt, see. Or just outright mind tricks. Nothing to do with laziness.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
There is a possibility for lapsed sisters, should they not be around the monastery and fall prey to deviance.

Ah, but this was a Schola Progenium. The Ecclesiarchy play a big role in those, and it's the same place they train Commissar and SoBs. It'll be nearly as devout and pious a place as a Sororitas monastery, if not just as devout and pious.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Not to mention you have to remember most of everyone within the culture is indoctrinated in the Emporer's Will within 40k

Right, but the Sisters are depicted as standing above everybody else in this regard. They are noted as being extremely adept at resisting Chaotic corruption, and get faith as a mechanic on the tabletop. It's pretty much their entire world.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
some will be purer then others.

Very true, but this was a Sister Superior. Those are noted as being some the most faithful and devout Sisters in the Order. Going off of my last point about Sisters being at the pinnacle of faith, Sister Superiors are another step up from the average Sister. They're even deeper into the indoctrination.

 Lynata wrote:
One could certainly follow that approach - I don't, as I'm going by certain anecdotal (and thus certainly not entirely trustworthy) evidence pointing to smaller numbers:

#1 The absence of a detachment of Battle Sisters to protect the Cathedral of Bladen against a CSM invasion in 143.M41, as mentioned in Codex: Citystrike on page 68:
...
#2 The low number of Minor Orders involved in the defence of the Cadian sector during the 13th Black Crusade:
Force Disposition Chart
...
#3 It is regarded as normal that the first line of defence against an assault on Ecclesiarchy proper does not consist of the Sisters of Battle but rather the clerics and the Frateris Militia:
...

I exalted your post because you clearly know your canon better than I do, but fortunately my capacity to rationalize away evidence is well-developed! (I grew up and still live in Washington DC). So:

I totally agree that the first line of defense at 99% of Ecclesiarchy sites is the Frateris and the clergy, deacons, etc themselves (though not every priest is an eviscerator-slinging badass). I think of the Minor Orders as the praetorian guard for the Cardinal or other chief cleric of a planet of high value to the Imperial Cult. Their three main missions, in order of importance, are to provide the Cardinal's personal protective detail (PPD), a planetary or even interplanetary quick reaction force (QRF) to protect holy sites, and finally to provide pilgrimage escort forces (PEF, obviously not a current US military term like the others; note also that the Sisters escort the pilgrimage as a whole, not the pilgrims, because each of them is "one among countless trillions [and] will not be missed.")

Given that a Minor Order is typically several hundred Sisters and certainly less than a thousand, they're spread thin even to cover their homebase planets. At the Baden Cathedral, the Cardinal may well have dispatched his Order Minoris elsewhere as a QRF to some other threats, only to be surprised that the enemy could hit his holiest site -- or he may have retained them all for his personal protection during the crisis.

Conversely, during the defense of the Cadian sector, the Ecclesiarchy -- being largely autonomous -- may had decided to hold back most of its limited Sororitas forces to defend its own Shrine and Cathedral Worlds rather than rely on Frateris for self-defense in such a dangerous situation, which would have kept most of the Orders Minoris "off the books" as they weren't available to the commander of the overall campaign any more than planetary defense forces were (and note PDFs aren't listed either).

As far as easy-going Sisters are concerned most people would probably never get to speak with one. IIRC only the most senior and trusted SoB will even be allowed to deal with outsiders. Partly for fear of corruption but also because only an older sister can handle the weaknesses of "normal" people without being grossly offended.

That sister in Gaunt may well be acting a bit in order to make the outsiders more comfortable. Have a drink, play a hand and give a meaning wink when her pretty assistant walks by - just like the male officers do.

 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:

 AegisGrimm wrote:
OP: Because not everyone has to have a hard-on for Space Marines. Variety of forces in a game is a good thing.

Sisters of Battle don't seem to be relevant lately , but all the wondrously over-the-top gak about the Space Marines is a recent innovation to get more fanboys for GW's flagship army. For example, Grey Knights seem so much cooler than the SoB as a force unless you are a old-timer that remembers that they used to be a shadowy organization that was represented by a single squad entry in the game until the Daemonhunters codex was written.

Sisters of Battle are cool, but in the realm of "cool" modern 40K fluff and rules, they are just suffering from being woefully out-of-date.

In 40K fluff, they represent the special-ops segment of the most powerful organization in ALL of Humanity, aside from the Adeptus Mechanicus. If you go by how fluff should work in the 40K setting, a Sisters force should be able to do practically what they want to on a world, because everyone is either fanatically supporting them, or terrified of angering the church.

Agressive eh?
Regardless I actually kinda like the sisters. They just dont seem to do much for reasons explained.

Maybe, but think of how the Sisters would be as an army right now if they got the Grey Knights' treatment instead of being thrown on the back burner? GW invented an entire Codex for yet another Space Marine army that up to that point had five Terminator models that could be fielded as one special squad, but ignored an army that they already had in production, with codex that had already been written, so could be easily updated.

Plus everyone compares the Sisters to Space Marines and says they aren't good, but not everyone wants to play Space marines all the time. Even I have two big armies of them, but like to take a break from seeing them all over every table. My small army of Sisters are a good way to get the "Elite" human fix, but not as Space Marines.

If anything, an army of Sisters of Battle justifies the evocative "Gothic Imperial" artwork and overall model "image" more than any other Imperial army on the tabletop, save for special niche cases like Black Templars, and others. All the stuff that looks over the top in other instances would fit with them just perfectly.

Troike wrote:Yes, but few cultures undergo such intense indoctrination as the Sisters. And it's constantly reinforced.

This is important. The Sisters aren't a "slice" through the average populace where you'll have someone be like that and someone like so - they've been indoctrinated from childbirth and "don't know any better". Their extreme isolation and strict regime are an extreme form of pressure in the development of their personalities. Sisters aren't clones or robots - they are still individuals - but the "range" of personality styles will be much, much, much narrower than in average contemporary western culture. It'd be more accurate to compare them to radical jihadists than someone from next door, and even that may be an understatement. I often say that the Sisters are "an army of Jeanne d'Arc's", with the fleur-de-lis merely being the most visible connection between the two. And Jeanne was said to be quite the little zealot.
Another example might be the Mino regiment of the Dahomey Empire, whose all-female warriors were said to be quite fanatical as well. Here's a humorously written article with a small 40k reference regarding their practice of skull-taking.

The isolation bit is another area where that novel failed to adhere to GW's original fluff, by the way. According to Codex fluff, progena are kept strictly separated by gender, whereas Mitchell's book had them mix and even play sports together. When the author has a less extreme environment for their upbringing in mind, it should probably come to little surprise that the result of such training is less extreme as well.

Troike wrote:I wish I could find the exact quote that I referenced. It really does a good job of showing just how deeply the Sisters are set in their ways.

This?

"The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent order where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. Its members are fanatical in their commitment. The slightest deprivation from approved stricture leads to the most severe chastisement."
- Codex Imperialis

Or where you referring to that "barbed pen"-story in the 3E rulebook?


Another great example might be the excerpts of rules in the WD Liber Sororitas article. The Sisters sure have a lot of regulations!

Troike wrote:Very true, but this was a Sister Superior. Those are noted as being some the most faithful and devout Sisters in the Order.

Even worse: it was a Sister Superior in charge of training the next generation of Sororitas.
Even apart from the obvious contradiction that novices don't have their novitiate in the Schola Progenium, the idea that a non-fanatical superior is responsible for turning kids into Battle Sisters just doesn't work for me. One should assume that the ones responsible for training new Sisters, in a stage where their minds are most malleable and vulnerable, are the most pure and dedicated individuals that the Order has to offer. Especially given the historical background.

"The lifestyle of the teachers and pupils is strict and puritan. During the Age of Apostasy, most of the Schola Progenium was corrupted and rife with slavery and depravity. Orphans were used as slave labour in factories and mines making goods for the Ecclesiarchy. Particularly promising individuals were sold to Imperial commanders as slaves and servants, and the most attractive became concubines for Imperial nobles. The most physically adept were sent to be trained as Frateris Templars or Brides of the Emperor, swelling Vandire's armies with the best recruits. The habitats themselves became associated with licentious practices, and their money was put to questionable ends. In direct contrast, each habitat now maintains a strict separation between the two genders, and contact between them is restricted purely to religious ceremonies. Only with this purity can the Progena hope to be elevated to a position within the Emperor's domain."
- 2E C:SoB

SisterSydney wrote:fortunately my capacity to rationalize away evidence is well-developed!

Hah, no problem! As I said, I'm tackling this beast from the other side by trying to rationalise fitting said evidence into the greater picture.
And I've already provided some theoretical counter-arguments for my own "proof" at the end of that post, so it's not like I can't see the issue from the other side. Although I maintain that the material would point more towards my interpretation!

Anyways, we are of one mind regarding the role of (most of) the Minor Orders, just not how many there are or how common they'd be. A detail that will probably never be resolved?

Resolved only in headcanon -- unless GW actually gives us a number.

 Lynata wrote:
This?

"The Adepta Sororitas is a penitent order where constant hardship, deprivation and arduous work are part of an unrelenting devotional regime. Its members are fanatical in their commitment. The slightest deprivation from approved stricture leads to the most severe chastisement."
- Codex Imperialis

Or where you referring to that "barbed pen"-story in the 3E rulebook?

Spoiler:

Another great example might be the excerpts of rules in the WD Liber Sororitas article. The Sisters sure have a lot of regulations!

Nah, wasn't any of those. Though they do nicely support the point about them being deeply indoctrinated. The one I read ended with saying that they live lives of "extreme denial".

Though that second one wasinteresting to read. Hair shirts, eh? Guess I know now what the Sisters wear when they're not in their power armour.

 Lynata wrote:
just not how many there are or how common they'd be. A detail that will probably never be resolved?

 SisterSydney wrote:
unless GW actually gives us a number.

Highly doubtful. The purpose of Minor Orders is to be a "way in" for the fans to make their own SoBs, after all. They're more open, and thus easier for fans to make use of, if they're a more unkown quantity. That's my take on it.

I do like Minor Orders, though. It'd be nice to get a little more information on them in the future, perhaps.

 Troike wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
As odd as it sounds, I do agree with him. There are variances within cultures so that not everyone will be 100% the same

Yes, but few cultures undergo such intense indoctrination as the Sisters. And it's constantly reinforced. Every day, they're training or prayer. One could even make the point that they would likely not have the social experience not desire to engage in gambling or casual sex, as they've lived their whole lives essentially just at war, praying, and training.

I wish I could find the exact quote that I referenced. It really does a good job of showing just how deeply the Sisters are set in their ways.

Space marines are not really human anymore, but the Sisters are. That's a big difference. The Sisters still have access to the sorts of urges humans have. We have plenty of historical experience with fantatical religious and militaristic cultures, and all of them have members who engage in sexual and illicit behavior outside of their cultures norms - the higher up individuals especially. Plus, warfare is not at all an ideal situation for keeping a group inexperienced and sheltered.

I am not saying we should expect Sisters to be running about having flings and drinking, but it would be just as surprising if none ever thought of it. Especially superiors, who are a bit more worldly, a bit more experienced, and have more autonomy and a better idea what they can get away with. It's not always the most moral or pure who rise up to be leaders, or who make the most effective leaders.

Hollowman wrote:Space marines are not really human anymore, but the Sisters are. That's a big difference. The Sisters still have access to the sorts of urges humans have.

Really? Space Marines had a perfectly normal childhood as per the local culture of the world they were recruited from, such as a barbarian Fenrisian tribe or a Necromunda hive gang. Recruits are taken in at about 10 years of age, at which point they will already have had a bit of experience considering everyday life. Sisters, on the other hand, lack these experiences and memories - they are raised from infancy within the Schola Progenium and taught to shield themselves from such "corrupting" influence, and are under a constant control by their fellow Sisters and superiors, trained to report impure thought and expunge it with penance.

Certainly, Astartes live a monastic life as well, but why exactly should they necessarily be less human in this way just because they're Space Marines? Comparing the Space Wolves and the Sisters of Battle, I sure as warp see who lives a more humble and devoted life. Other Chapters of Astartes, on the other hand, come across as much closer to the Adepta Sororitas as far as their mindset is concerned (anyone remember the "daily schedule" table?), so it must be a matter of lifestyle. Unless of course we are to assume that there is some sort of "duty gene" or a special Marine-exclusive brainwashing method that just doesn't work for each and every Chapter.

And you'd be surprised what growing up in a strict regime and indoctrination can do to people's behaviour. Have you read that story about the North Korean kid that grew up in one of the labour camps and ratted out his parents because at the time he truly believed it was the right thing to do and that his parents were wrong for trying to escape?

I think it's just really, really hard for people to understand how such an alien culture can operate, and our contemporary "western way of thinking" is all too often presented as the only way for the human mind to tick.

Hollowman wrote:We have plenty of historical experience with fantatical religious and militaristic cultures, and all of them have members who engage in sexual and illicit behavior outside of their cultures norms

That sounds like a pretty large brush to paint with. Given how little we actually know about various reclusive societies - specifically due to their reclusiveness - I would certainly not apply such an all-encompassing term like "all of them".

But let's try to tackle this from the other side, shall we? Do you think that every single religious fanatic has to engage in "sexual and illicit behavior", no exceptions?
If not, why do you think it is impossible that every member of a cult or organisation was indoctrinated with similar success than the ones who don't?

 Hollowman wrote:
Space marines are not really human anymore, but the Sisters are. That's a big difference.

Is it? The Marines also undergo some heavy indoctrination, but who has the better track record at resisting Chaos? If anything, it speaks volumes about just how much the Sisters get indoctrinated when they, on average, have better willpower than somebody who has been genetically enhanced and had their indoctrination hypnotically reinforced.

 Hollowman wrote:
The Sisters still have access to the sorts of urges humans have.

Debatable. They've undergone some extreme indoctrination on a daily basis since early childhood. On top of that, they've likely been told that these urges are evil distractions, and must be ignored. Read the spoilered codex fluff that Lynata posted, that's daily life for a Sister. Constant supression and devotion, contant reaffirmations of their beliefs. There's not really a lot of room for those little urges to come in.

 Hollowman wrote:
We have plenty of historical experience with fantatical religious and militaristic cultures, and all of them have members who engage in sexual and illicit behavior outside of their cultures norms - the higher up individuals especially.

Right, but you have to remember, this ain't our history. It's a whole other world. And the Sisters live lives of near-complete isolation, with it usually being just the Canoness (maybe a Palatine if she wasn't around) who interacts with outsiders. There's not really any room for them to indulge or even vaguely expereince behaviours like that, such are their lives.

 Hollowman wrote:
Plus, warfare is not at all an ideal situation for keeping a group inexperienced and sheltered.

Why not? They go out there, zealously purge the enemy while singing their hyms, and go back to the monastery. They're not going to be like the Guardsmen in, say, the Cain novels, who can go on leave after the fighting finishes to go get drunk.

As for contact with other Imperial forces maybe loosening thier indoctrination somehow, well, I wouldn't worry about that too much

As we are all aware, the Order of the Argent Shroud are renowned for their mandate of regulating the activities of not just members of the Ecclesiarchy, but of other Imperial organisations they come into contact with as well. Whilst I appreciate their dedication and success at rooting out traitors and dissenters within our midst, the effect upon the general morale of any fighting arm during their investigations almost always depreciates as their purges continue.

Other Imperials, bar Marines, would likely be some measure of awed or intimidated by the Sisters. If not outright terrified if the Sisters decide to go purging. They certainly wouldn't hang out casually.

 Hollowman wrote:
Especially superiors, who are a bit more worldly, a bit more experienced, and have more autonomy and a better idea what they can get away with.

Where would they get experience like that from? When they're not fighting their holy wars, they're in the monastery, training and praying. There's not really any time to go out and discover the joys of alcohol, or anything like that. Again, their only experience of stuff like that is likely just them being told that it a foolish ditraction at best.

 Hollowman wrote:
It's not always the most moral or pure who rise up to be leaders

Except that that is likely a main part of how the Sisters promote. Who can adhere to their faith the best? Who is the most zealous? Who would we want being directly responsible for the faith and well-being of one of our squads? Superiors are directly responsible for their own squads, after all, so they'll be looking for those traits in potential Superiors. And, given what a strict, intense enviroment a Sororitas Monastery is, all potential Superiors are under intense scrutiny, essentially. It's doubtful traits of wekaness would go unmissed, much less occur in the first place due to the constant devotional practices.

 Lynata wrote:
Really? Space Marines had a perfectly normal childhood as per the local culture of the world they were recruited from, such as a barbarian Fenrisian tribe or a Necromunda hive gang. Recruits are taken in at about 10 years of age, at which point they will already have had a bit of experience considering everyday life. Sisters, on the other hand, lack these experiences and memories - they are raised from infancy within the Schola Progenium and taught to shield themselves from such "corrupting" influence, and are under a constant control by their fellow Sisters and superiors, trained to report impure thought and expunge it with penance.

Well yes - Space marines are not human. The fluff ascribes them a limited suite of emotional states, entirely different physiology, etc.

 Lynata wrote:
Certainly, Astartes live a monastic life as well, but why exactly should they necessarily be less human in this way just because they're Space Marines? Comparing the Space Wolves and the Sisters of Battle, I sure as warp see who lives a more humble and devoted life. Other Chapters of Astartes, on the other hand, come across as much closer to the Adepta Sororitas as far as their mindset is concerned (anyone remember the "daily schedule" table?), so it must be a matter of lifestyle. Unless of course we are to assume that there is some sort of "duty gene" or a special Marine-exclusive brainwashing method that just doesn't work for each and every Chapter.

I'd be more inclined to say Space marines have a set of genes that make them far more behaviorally limited than proper humans. Something not far off from sociopathy.

 Lynata wrote:
And you'd be surprised what growing up in a strict regime and indoctrination can do to people's behaviour. Have you read that story about the North Korean kid that grew up in one of the labour camps and ratted out his parents because at the time he truly believed it was the right thing to do and that his parents were wrong for trying to escape?

I think it's just really, really hard for people to understand how such an alien culture can operate, and our contemporary "western way of thinking" is all too often presented as the only way for the human mind to tick.

I'm well aware of how non western cultures operate, as well as the universals that span across them. That North Korean kid is hardly the strangest example of human variation.

 Lynata wrote:

Hollowman wrote:We have plenty of historical experience with fantatical religious and militaristic cultures, and all of them have members who engage in sexual and illicit behavior outside of their cultures norms

That sounds like a pretty large brush to paint with. Given how little we actually know about various reclusive societies - specifically due to their reclusiveness - I would certainly not apply such an all-encompassing term like "all of them".

But let's try to tackle this from the other side, shall we? Do you think that every single religious fanatic has to engage in "sexual and illicit behavior", no exceptions?
If not, why do you think it is impossible that every member of a cult or organisation was indoctrinated with similar success than the ones who don't?

It is so universally widespread that it would be almost obstinate not too, but I am happy to say it is provisionally true that all encountered cultures display such behavior.

As to your question, I would say it is impossible for every member of a cult or organisation to be indoctrinated with the same level of success because it is impossible to ensure each individual has the same genetic, social and experiential history as every other member. You cannot even ensure crickets and mice behave the same way under the same stimuli, much less something as complex as a young woman in a warzone. I would also note that if it were possible to find some magic bullet which makes all humans behave the same way under an indoctrination regime, we would see a lot more cultural groups built around them. If the Churches and governments and corporations could so easily ensure predictable and loyal behavior, you can bet they would have mastered the art long ago. Instead we have varying proportions of individuals who are susceptible to varying levels of social and behavioral indoctrination, across the board.

I am enjoying the implication that humans must give in to our urges or else we, I don't know, explode.

Also, why has nobody made comparisons to, you know, nuns? That's essentially what Sororitas are - except worse. Nuns don't take their faith so seriously that even the slightest deviation can be cause for death.

To succumb to physical desires and act in a manner against the faith is to have one's faith lacking. They police themselves - to allow such desires to enter one's mind is heretical, is enough for the Sister in question to run to her superior and plead for punishment that she may be resolved of her impurity. To fully act upon these desires? Oh dear.

In the story that Tankred is from, the Black Templar that would later become Tankred (I believe) reports to his Chaplain about a sort of crisis of faith. What was it about? The fact that he simply mentioned taking pride in his victories. The Chaplain only refrains from killing him on the spot because he explains it to be something about how great the Emperor is, and how their victories serve to demonstrate the Emperor's strength, or something. Extraordinarily minor by our standards, but by the standards of the Chaplain, heresy worth killing over.

That's what it's like with the Sisters. Quite possibly worse. Furthermore, if it's impossible for them to be 'indoctrinated with the same level of success', then why has only one Sister ever fallen to Chaos (a Sister who is essentially a fan-character, coming from the rather silly card game which bizarre things like that poisonous Trygon that looks awful)?

Also, I have to agree that Sci Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale. The Imperium is really, really huge. I think it rather silly for the Sororitas to be so few that their total doesn't even come to half the size of the active armed forces of the United Kingdom!

Holy wars are still wars. Sisters work alongside the Imperial Guard and civilian populations, and even the most elite warriors generally take weeks if not longer to defeat their enemies - Warhammer fluff is full of battles that rage on for years or longer. No matter how isolated by reputation, cultural differences and location, the Sisters are going to interact with allies and civilians pretty routinely. They are going to see things which humans find intriguing, and some portion of them are going to be tempted. Some portion of them are going to be smart enough and curious enough to dabble.

 Troike wrote:

 Hollowman wrote:
Especially superiors, who are a bit more worldly, a bit more experienced, and have more autonomy and a better idea what they can get away with.

Where would they get experience like that from? When they're not fighting their holy wars, they're in the monastery, training and praying. There's not really any time to go out and discover the joys of alcohol, or anything like that. Again, their only experience of stuff like that is likely just them being told that it a foolish ditraction at best.

Actually there is precedent for religious orders to have connections to alcohol so I could see Sisters casually enjoying beer or it's 40k equivalent and even brewing it, but not getting rip-roaring drunk.

 Frozen Ocean wrote:
I am enjoying the implication that humans must give in to our urges or else we, I don't know, explode.

Also, why has nobody made comparisons to, you know, nuns? That's essentially what Sororitas are - except worse. Nuns don't take their faith so seriously that even the slightest deviation can be cause for death.

To succumb to physical desires and act in a manner against the faith is to have one's faith lacking. They police themselves - to allow such desires to enter one's mind is heretical, is enough for the Sister in question to run to her superior and plead for punishment that she may be resolved of her impurity. To fully act upon these desires? Oh dear.
!

I didn't say we have to give in to urges, I said some portion almost certainly would. Nuns were one of the primary things i was thinking of when I initially suggested some Sisters would engage in proscribed activities, just as many nuns do. I'm also not sure how clear it is that what the catholic church believes is sinful is in line with what the Imperium considers unpure. Sex and drinking are certainly distractions, but so is watching television - I'm not sure what the cultu of the emperor has to say about sex and drugs in general.

 Hollowman wrote:
No matter how isolated by reputation, cultural differences and location, the Sisters are going to interact with allies and civilians pretty routinely.

Why? They'd likely have their own facilities, and wouldn't be sharing with their allies. And the isolation we see in their monastery life will likely still be in effect to some degree, with Sisters keeping to their own. If the link I posted above is any indication, purging is one of the most likely interction they'd have with any allies. As for civilians, they would have no reason to interact with those either, bar checking for signs of corruption and purging if any are found.

 Hollowman wrote:
They are going to see things which humans find intriguing and some portion of them are going to be tempted. Some portion of them are going to be smart enough and curious enough to dabble.

This is a very important detail, these aren't normal humans! They're not going to be intrigued nor tempted. There certainly won't be any dabbling. They will be disgusted at the lack of devotion at best, will start purging at worst. If they can resist the temptation put forth by the gods of Chaos, they're certianly going to be able to resist mundane temptations.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Actually there is precedent for religious orders to have connections to alcohol so I could see Sisters casually enjoying beer or it's 40k equivalent and even brewing it, but not getting rip-roaring drunk.

Eh, but this ain't our history. Something happening in our world doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be an influence in 40K. And I don't really think that the Sisters would approve of that, given the intensity of their daily lives. Given that their damn pens are desinged to be uncomfortable to use, they'd more likely see alcohol as a distraction from their devotion.

Certainly, I doubt they'd be brewing alcohol to give to the local citizens, which would distract both parties from the more important task of worshiping Big E.

 Troike wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
Actually there is precedent for religious orders to have connections to alcohol so I could see Sisters casually enjoying beer or it's 40k equivalent and even brewing it, but not getting rip-roaring drunk.

Eh, but this ain't our history. Something happening in our world doesn't necessarily mean that it'll be an influence in 40K. And I don't really think that the Sisters would approve of that, given the intensity of their daily lives. Given that their damn pens are desinged to be uncomfortable to use, they'd more likely see alcohol as a distraction from their devotion.

Certainly, I doubt they'd be brewing alcohol to give to the local citizens, which would distract both parties from the more important task of worshiping Big E.

I know it's not our history, but the fact was more that it's not too strange to think of it when you know it's actually happened.

Even if the Sisters didn't themselves the Ecclesiarchy still could.

Either way, a beer with a meal wouldn't be bad for them. A keg with a meal on the other hand would be a problem.

ClockworkZion wrote:
I know it's not our history, but the fact was more that it's not too strange to think of it when you know it's actually happened.

Even if the Sisters didn't themselves the Ecclesiarchy still could.

Either way, a beer with a meal wouldn't be bad for them. A keg with a meal on the other hand would be a problem.

Sure, but my issue is that our history probably isn't really a valid comparison to the Sisters. Certainly, those relgious organisations that went around distributing alcohol to regular citizens aren't. But yes, the Ecclesiarchy could well enage in a practice like that. Or at least parts of it. But the Sisters are actually fairly seperated from the Ecclesiarchy in daily life, so it wouldn't really effect them.

As for the Sisters drinking, I would have expected them to drink wine of some sort if they did indeed drink at all.

Hollowman wrote:I'd be more inclined to say Space marines have a set of genes that make them far more behaviorally limited than proper humans. Something not far off from sociopathy.

Okay, but that's just your personal guess. As far as GW is concerned, this limited behaviour is a result of their monastic lifestyle. The Sisters are just better at that, so they are more limited, and so they are less likely to suffer corruption. It all adds up.

Hollowman wrote:As to your question, I would say it is impossible for every member of a cult or organisation to be indoctrinated with the same level of success because it is impossible to ensure each individual has the same genetic, social and experiential history as every other member. You cannot even ensure crickets and mice behave the same way under the same stimuli, much less something as complex as a young woman in a warzone.

Do Space Marines have the same genetic, social and experiential history as every other member of their Chapter? No. Yet you are perfectly happy to ascribe a more limited behaviour to them (even in the face of obvious exceptions such as the aforementioned Space Wolves) but not to the Sisters, whose "experiential history" is much more uniform than that of the Marines, given that unlike Astartes recruits they all grew up in a similarly controlled environment?

Hollowman wrote:I would also note that if it were possible to find some magic bullet which makes all humans behave the same way under an indoctrination regime, we would see a lot more cultural groups built around them. If the Churches and governments and corporations could so easily ensure predictable and loyal behavior, you can bet they would have mastered the art long ago. Instead we have varying proportions of individuals who are susceptible to varying levels of social and behavioral indoctrination, across the board.

That is because churches and governments are perfectly happy with varying levels of social and behavioural indoctrination, as the leaders tend to come from those segments of the populace that are less in its grip and who do not see a need to change the status quo. It takes a sheperd to herd the sheep, after all. You are also dismissing the continuous rivalry between both church and government, and between different governments, which is not only a significant difference to the setting in 40k, but also has a profound effect on how much any one of these bodies would even be able to expand its indoctrination to all levels, even if it wanted to. Certainly, it has been attempted often enough in history, but always external forces have curbed the success of such measures.

Or, to add to what Troike wrote here ->

Troike wrote:Sure, but my issue is that our history probably isn't really a valid comparison to the Sisters. Certainly, those relgious organisations that went around distributing alcohol to regular citizens aren't. But yes, the Ecclesiarchy could well enage in a practice like that. Or at least parts of it. But the Sisters are actually fairly seperated from the Ecclesiarchy in daily life, so it wouldn't really effect them.

The Sisters are a monastic order, and to the Ecclesiarchy just like, say, the Dominicans or the Knights Templar are to the Catholic Church. As history has shown, the various monasteries and orders need not necessarily practice the same lifestyle as the clergy of the church. It would be an oddity, even. Part of the reason those monasteries were founded was to GET AWAY from everyday life and temptation, as opposed to the church, whose mission includes spreading the faith and tending to everyone's spiritual wellbeing (which in turn obviously requires contact with the people).

ClockworkZion wrote:Actually there is precedent for religious orders to have connections to alcohol so I could see Sisters casually enjoying beer or it's 40k equivalent and even brewing it, but not getting rip-roaring drunk.

Indeed, but the Sisters believe in self-deprivation and suffering as part of their faith. "Casually enjoying beer" is fun, thus I would expect it to be banned. Just like it is the case for various other religious orders in real life.

Frozen Ocean wrote:Furthermore, if it's impossible for them to be 'indoctrinated with the same level of success', then why has only one Sister ever fallen to Chaos (a Sister who is essentially a fan-character, coming from the rather silly card game which bizarre things like that poisonous Trygon that looks awful)?

To be fair, there's a number of non-GW fluff where Sisters have been corrupted. On the other hand, if one were to look at GW's own stuff exclusively, there is not a single Sister noted to have fallen to Chaos. Not one. Instead, we have tons of fluff telling us about how "their faith is a bulwark against corruption", and the 2E material even described them as "incorruptible".

(I maintain that Miriael is a cool character, though! even if I agree about the "Trygon" and wish it'd rather just be a lewdly long tongue but without the teeth - the teeth just look silly ...)

Frozen Ocean wrote:Also, I have to agree that Sci Fi Writers Have No Sense of Scale. The Imperium is really, really huge. I think it rather silly for the Sororitas to be so few that their total doesn't even come to half the size of the active armed forces of the United Kingdom!

Well, why exactly do there need to be more Sisters? That's like complaining there's too few SEALs compared to the SAS because the US are so much larger than the UK. It is important to keep in mind that the Sisters of Battle are an adjunct to the Imperial military, just like the Space Marines are. The only ones you really need to have a lot of is the Imperial Guard, as that's the ones who do most of the fighting.

 Troike wrote:

ClockworkZion wrote:
I know it's not our history, but the fact was more that it's not too strange to think of it when you know it's actually happened.

Even if the Sisters didn't themselves the Ecclesiarchy still could.

Either way, a beer with a meal wouldn't be bad for them. A keg with a meal on the other hand would be a problem.

Sure, but my issue is that our history probably isn't really a valid comparison to the Sisters. Certainly, those relgious organisations that went around distributing alcohol to regular citizens aren't. But yes, the Ecclesiarchy could well enage in a practice like that. Or at least parts of it. But the Sisters are actually fairly seperated from the Ecclesiarchy in daily life, so it wouldn't really effect them.

As for the Sisters drinking, I would have expected them to drink wine of some sort if they did indeed drink at all.

The monks don't really just run around handing out free drinks, but instead sell the beer to support their order. Plus they drink what the brewed too.