A clash between a pack of motorcyclists and a Range Rover on a Manhattan highway — which triggered a harrowing chase caught on a viral video — has left one biker facing charges and a second in critical condition.
Edwin "Jay" Mieses, 32, could be paralyzed after being run over during the chaos, a relative said.
“He was an innocent bystander,” Mieses’ aunt, Delilah Domenech, told NBC News on Tuesday, saying her nephew was checking on another motorcyclist when he was struck by the panicked motorist.
A third biker involved in the incident, who was sought by the NYPD after being caught on camera punching the window of the Range Rover, turned himself in on Tuesday, sources told NBC New York.
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The violent scene unfolded Sunday afternoon when up to 30 motorcyclists taking part in an unauthorized daredevil rally called Hollywood Stuntz took to the West Side Highway.
Video taken by a helmet camera shows the pack zooming around the the Range Rover of Alexian Lien, 33, who was out for a drive with his wife and 2-year-old daughter, police said.
One biker, identified by police as Christopher Cruz, 23, of New Jersey, slowed down right in front of the SUV and gestured at Lien, who clipped the motorcycle, the video shows.
Deliliah Domenech
Jay Mieses' family says he may be paralyzed from the waist down after being injured Sunday during a clash between bikers and a Range Rover in Manhattan
The group of riders then surrounded Lien's vehicle.
"They take their helmets and start to dent his car, and apparently his tires are slashed there with a knife," Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said.
Mieses, who lives in Lawrence, Mass., can be seen on the video getting off his green bike to check on Cruz, his aunt said. He was standing near the SUV when Lien suddenly took off and ran over him, she said.
Police said Mieses suffered two broken legs, but family members said his injuries were far more severe and include a torn aorta, broken ribs and spinal damage that will probably leave him paralyzed.
“He damaged my son’s life forever," his mother, Yolando Santiago, told NBC affiliate WHDH. "He is never going to walk again."
After Lien took off, other members of the crew forced him on a harrowing chase. They cornered him at one point and managed to yank open his door, but he gunned it and sped away again, the video posted on You Tube shows.
After a 50-block northbound pursuit, he got off the highway and stopped on a side street in upper Manhattan, where video shows one motorcyclist smashing in the window with a helmet.
Police said the gang pulled Lien out of the car and assaulted him in front of his wife and child, slashing his face and chest. He was treated and released from Columbia University Medical Center.
YouTube
Christopher Cruz slows his motorcycle down in front of a Range Rover on Mahattan's West Side Highway on Sunday, Sept. 29, in this image from a video posted on YouTube. Cruz has been arrested by police after his clash with the Range Rover triggered a wild chase and beating by a pack of fellow bikers bent on revenge.
Cruz, who was also injured, was charged with reckless endangerment, reckless driving, and endangering the welfare of a child for his actions on the road, officials told NBC New York.
Police said the investigation is continuing and they are still looking for up to 30 bikers.
Domenech said her family is upset that most of the attention from the incident is focused on Lien and not her nephew, a married father of a 10-year-old and a 14-year-old.
"This man with a Range Rover and luxury lifestyle — it's OK for him to do something to someone because he rides a bike or has tattoos?" she said.
She said she didn't know if the driver should be charged.
"But it should be acknowledged that what he did was wrong," she said. "He had many other options but he chose the violent one."
Asked whether Lien was within his legal rights to leave the scene of the intial accident, Kelly said, "It depends on what the circumstances are."
"It depends on whether or not your vehicle is being attacked, whether or not you think you’re being attacked, whether or not your wife and child are in the car. You have to look at the totality of the circumstances and that’s what we’re doing,” he said.
"Obviously, if you can get out of there without hurting someone, that’s what we advise you to do," he added. "There’s no one-size-fits-all to a situation like this."
Kelly said the bikers did not have a permit for the rally and the NYPD only learned of the gathering — in its second year — through social media.
He said police had fanned out around Manhattan to watch for trouble, arresting 15 bikers and confiscating 55 motorcycles unrelated to the attack on the Range Rover.
This story has everything, Class warfare, Racial overtones, and rappers.
And check out Justice for Jay Meezee on facebook. Its hilarious.
My dad was a hells Angel. If there are one group of people you do not mess with it is bikers. I heard some stories of a man being killed with a Pool Cue.
hotsauceman1 wrote: My dad was a hells Angel. If there are one group of people you do not mess with it is bikers. I heard some stories of a man being killed with a Pool Cue.
hotsauceman1 wrote: My dad was a hells Angel. If there are one group of people you do not mess with it is bikers. I heard some stories of a man being killed with a Pool Cue.
The SUV wasn't purposely trying to hurt the biker, he stopped and normally when not swarmed by a bunch of men who should know better, he would of called 9-11 helped the biker and the normal traffic scene would ensue. However in this scenario the biker GANG yes GANG, assaulted the SUV so when the SUV driver tried to PROTECT his family they followed him and nearly beat him to death. Yes crap happens and he had to run over three bikers, but wouldn't you if you were in the scenario? If he had a sidearm he would of pumped holes in those bikers and the situation would of gotten worse.
I laughed when the SUV tore out of there. I'm a terrible person, but when the video showed the biker stopping as he did to get hit by the SUV, I had no sympathy.
Alfndrate wrote: I laughed when the SUV tore out of there. I'm a terrible person, but when the video showed the biker stopping as he did to get hit by the SUV, I had no sympathy.
Agreed, bikers will be arrested, and prosecuted.
SUV driver won't spend a day behind bars, rightfully so.
hotsauceman1 wrote: My dad was a hells Angel. If there are one group of people you do not mess with it is bikers. I heard some stories of a man being killed with a Pool Cue.
The SUV wasn't purposely trying to hurt the biker, he stopped and normally when not swarmed by a bunch of men who should know better, he would of called 9-11 helped the biker and the normal traffic scene would ensue. However in this scenario the biker GANG yes GANG, assaulted the SUV so when the SUV driver tried to PROTECT his family they followed him and nearly beat him to death. Yes crap happens and he had to run over three bikers, but wouldn't you if you were in the scenario? If he had a sidearm he would of pumped holes in those bikers and the situation would of gotten worse.
Where is my post did I say that I had my sympathies with the bikers(Other then the first one ran over)? What they did was wrong. What I was saying is the bikers are hardcore scary They would make Gandbangers from west oakland piss their pants. When my dad saw a group of bikers on the free way onetime he let them pass as he went to the side of the road. They are scary MOFOs.
Yep. About a third of my customer base is goons like these bikers.
They try to take over entire roads to do stunts and such, always a pain in the ass. SUV driver was entirely justified in what he did. Had it been the SUV hitting a biker who was driving legitimately with a group, instead of the group trying to take over an entire expressway for bike related tomfoolery and shenanigans, and the SUV had driven off without checking on the biker, I'd be on the bikers side. But the bikers were in the wrong from the start.
Bikers were being asshats, driver was trying to protect his family, plain and simple. If I were the driver, there would've been alot more bikers hurt if they were trying to chase me.
Here in Baltimore, a few years back a driver hit some punk kid driving illegally on a dirt bike in the city with a group, stopped to see if the kid was alright, group circled around and he was beaten to near death(or even death, can't remember) for his troubles.
Douchebags like this ruin motorcycling for the 99% that do the right thing.
So all it took was a clip for these guys to go off? Wow those dudes are idiots.
They arent even riding real bikes, they are riding crotch rockets and hair dryers.
hotsauceman1 wrote: So all it took was a clip for these guys to go off? Wow those dudes are idiots.
They arent even riding real bikes, they are riding crotch rockets and hair dryers.
It seems like it was most likely planned. "Hey Jim, I'm gonna get 'hit' by this SUV, then we surround him and beat the gak out of him, that'll be fun!"
Lots of bikers are scary .. there's a few gangs from my general area but I never had any run ins with em.. not like they hang out in game shops, so I don't have to worry.
Lots of bikers are gonna get in trouble for this, all because one of their buddies filmed it and was smart enough to share it with the world.
Another biker, Christopher Cruz, 28, was in court Wednesday facing misdemeanor charges including reckless driving. Cruz's attorney told reporters that his client is not guilty.
He was to be released after posting $1,500 cash bail and a $15,000 insurance bond. In addition, his license was suspended and he was ordered to surrender his passport.
Lots of bikers are gonna get in trouble for this, all because one of their buddies filmed it and was smart enough to share it with the world.
What's funny is this guy posted a bunch of videos of he and his buddies doing all kinds of illegal activities on bikes. These activities include speeding, running red lights, driving on sidewalks and stopping other cars and damaging other cars. Pretty much proving that the driver of the SUV did the right thing.
Of course some people are claiming he was just an innocent bystander who got struck trying to help another motorcyclist. Seems to me he was hanging out with a bunch of donkeycaves.
Alfndrate wrote: I laughed when the SUV tore out of there. I'm a terrible person, but when the video showed the biker stopping as he did to get hit by the SUV, I had no sympathy.
Agreed, bikers will be arrested, and prosecuted.
SUV driver won't spend a day behind bars, rightfully so.
I don't like bullies.
This is NY. Charges have already been dropped against two of the prime offenders.
Remember when seconds count, the police are only minutes away (nine evidently).
When I saw the video earlier today, I thought it looked like he hit the first bike and tore out of there to avoid being attacked and was then followed. In which case I thought the SUV driver was a feth-head. Reading the article, it paints a much different picture. And with a gang attacking and slashing the tires with a two year old daughter in the car, he did the right thing as a parent. There isn't always a situation that allows a "right" outcome. This was one of those.
Another biker, Christopher Cruz, 28, was in court Wednesday facing misdemeanor charges including reckless driving. Cruz's attorney told reporters that his client is not guilty.
He was to be released after posting $1,500 cash bail and a $15,000 insurance bond. In addition, his license was suspended and he was ordered to surrender his passport.
My family always tells me that bikes are death traps waiting to happen. I keep telling them it's not that bad, as most of the time it's these arse hats doing crazy stuff that get smeared over a highway, but they never believe me.
Biker injured in NYC clash with SUV hires celebrity attorney Gloria Allred By Alexander Smith and Tracy Connor, NBC News
A motorcyclist who may be paralyzed after being run over during a clash between bikers and a Range Rover on a New York City highway has hired high-profile lawyer Gloria Allred.
Edwin “Jay” Mieses, 33, is in critical condition with a crushed spine, two broken legs and other injuries from Sunday’s confrontation, captured on a viral video that has drawn more than 4 million hits on YouTube.
"There's no hope for his back," his wife, Dayana Meises, told reporters on Tuesday. "They broke it in two different places, so he will be forever, forever paralyzed."
The wife of one of the bikers who was injured when a motorist in an SUV fled a biker attack wants charges against the driver. But police say he did what he had to do to get away and protect his family, and that charges against him aren't likely. NBC's Kristen Dahlgren reports.
The family issued a statement on Wednesday night asking for privacy and announcing it had hired Allred, a media-savvy Los Angeles lawyer who usually specializes in women rights and sexual harassment cases.
She has represented people in suits against high-profile defendants ranging from Michael Jackson and Arnold Schwarzenegger to former congressman Anthony Weiner and former San Diego mayor Bob Filner.
They also retained a New York lawyer, Mariann Meier Wang. Both lawyers had no comment on whether the family is planning legal action.
Police say Mieses — a father of two from Lawrence, Mass. -- was struck by Alexian Lien’s SUV when he sped away from a pack of bikers who were attacking his vehicle after a fender-bender.
The swarm of riders chased Lien for 50 blocks before cornering him, smashing in his windows, yanking him out and beating him in front of his wife and 2-year-old child, police said.
Police later arrested two of the bikers, but prosecutors declined to pursue charges against one of them.
Allen Edwards, 42, of Queens, was seen hitting the Range Rover with his hands but there is no indication he participated in the beating and he actually may have tried to help the SUV driver, sources told NBC New York.
"We are taking Sunday's crimes extremely seriously, and will proceed with charges in a manner that enables us to build the strongest cases possible," Karen Friedman-Agnifilo of the Manhattan district attorney's office said in a statement.
"Prematurely charging individuals with low-level crimes does not further the goals of the investigation, and could weaken the cases we expect to bring against the perpetrators of serious crimes."
Deliliah Domenech
Jay Mieses' family says he may be paralyzed from the waist down after being injured Sunday during a clash between bikers and a Range Rover in Manhattan.
Meanwhile, the biker who is accused of causing the fender-bender that set off the chase appeared in a Manhattan courtroom to face charges of reckless driving and unlawful imprisonment.
The video, made by a helmet camera, shows Cruz cutting in front of the Range Rover, slowing down and gesturing at the driver before Lien apparently clipped his back tire.
Bikers then converged on the SUV and, police say, pounded on it and slashed a tire. That’s when Lien sped off in a panic, running over Mieses.
Cruz’s lawyer, H. Benjamin Perez, said outside court that his client wasn’t trying to trap Lien and didn’t take part in the chase or attack.
“I wouldn’t classify it as a deliberate attempt to block the car,” Perez said. “Even if his motorcycle slowed down, he had nothing to do with what happened with this gentleman.”
Police have not charged Lien but said the investigation is continuing.
Asked whether Lien was within his legal rights to race away from the scene of his accident with Cruz, Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said he might have been.
"It depends on whether or not your vehicle is being attacked, whether or not you think you’re being attacked, whether or not your wife and child are in the car. You have to look at the totality of the circumstances and that’s what we’re doing,” he said Tuesday.
"Obviously, if you can get out of there without hurting someone, that’s what we advise you to do," he added. "There’s no one-size-fits-all to a situation like this."
I
t’s unclear if Lien, who has not spoken publicly, has a lawyer. A spokesperson for the Internet company where he works said earlier this week there was no comment.
Biker injured in NYC clash with SUV hires celebrity attorney Gloria Allred By Alexander Smith and Tracy Connor, NBC News
A motorcyclist who may be paralyzed after being run over during a clash between bikers and a Range Rover on a New York City highway has hired high-profile lawyer Gloria Allred.
Edwin “Jay” Mieses, 33, is in critical condition with a crushed spine, two broken legs and other injuries from Sunday’s confrontation, captured on a viral video that has drawn more than 4 million hits on YouTube.
"There's no hope for his back," his wife, Dayana Meises, told reporters on Tuesday. "They broke it in two different places, so he will be forever, forever paralyzed."
The wife of one of the bikers who was injured when a motorist in an SUV fled a biker attack wants charges against the driver. But police say he did what he had to do to get away and protect his family, and that charges against him aren't likely. NBC's Kristen Dahlgren reports.
The family issued a statement on Wednesday night asking for privacy and announcing it had hired Allred, a media-savvy Los Angeles lawyer who usually specializes in women rights and sexual harassment cases.
She has represented people in suits against high-profile defendants ranging from Michael Jackson and Arnold Schwarzenegger to former congressman Anthony Weiner and former San Diego mayor Bob Filner.
They also retained a New York lawyer, Mariann Meier Wang. Both lawyers had no comment on whether the family is planning legal action.
Police say Mieses — a father of two from Lawrence, Mass. -- was struck by Alexian Lien’s SUV when he sped away from a pack of bikers who were attacking his vehicle after a fender-bender.
The swarm of riders chased Lien for 50 blocks before cornering him, smashing in his windows, yanking him out and beating him in front of his wife and 2-year-old child, police said.
Police later arrested two of the bikers, but prosecutors declined to pursue charges against one of them.
Allen Edwards, 42, of Queens, was seen hitting the Range Rover with his hands but there is no indication he participated in the beating and he actually may have tried to help the SUV driver, sources told NBC New York.
"We are taking Sunday's crimes extremely seriously, and will proceed with charges in a manner that enables us to build the strongest cases possible," Karen Friedman-Agnifilo of the Manhattan district attorney's office said in a statement.
"Prematurely charging individuals with low-level crimes does not further the goals of the investigation, and could weaken the cases we expect to bring against the perpetrators of serious crimes."
Deliliah Domenech
Jay Mieses' family says he may be paralyzed from the waist down after being injured Sunday during a clash between bikers and a Range Rover in Manhattan.
Meanwhile, the biker who is accused of causing the fender-bender that set off the chase appeared in a Manhattan courtroom to face charges of reckless driving and unlawful imprisonment.
The video, made by a helmet camera, shows Cruz cutting in front of the Range Rover, slowing down and gesturing at the driver before Lien apparently clipped his back tire.
Bikers then converged on the SUV and, police say, pounded on it and slashed a tire. That’s when Lien sped off in a panic, running over Mieses.
Cruz’s lawyer, H. Benjamin Perez, said outside court that his client wasn’t trying to trap Lien and didn’t take part in the chase or attack.
“I wouldn’t classify it as a deliberate attempt to block the car,” Perez said. “Even if his motorcycle slowed down, he had nothing to do with what happened with this gentleman.”
Police have not charged Lien but said the investigation is continuing.
Asked whether Lien was within his legal rights to race away from the scene of his accident with Cruz, Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly said he might have been.
"It depends on whether or not your vehicle is being attacked, whether or not you think you’re being attacked, whether or not your wife and child are in the car. You have to look at the totality of the circumstances and that’s what we’re doing,” he said Tuesday.
"Obviously, if you can get out of there without hurting someone, that’s what we advise you to do," he added. "There’s no one-size-fits-all to a situation like this."
I
t’s unclear if Lien, who has not spoken publicly, has a lawyer. A spokesperson for the Internet company where he works said earlier this week there was no comment.
Wait, Did the Family hire The famous Attorney or did the biker?
I mean it is completely possible, however unlikely that Jay Meezee was just trying to help the guy who got hit, we can't really see what is happening at that part of the video. I think at that point you still have to hold the mob legally responsible for what happened to him.
I want to see this lawyer try to turn this into another Zimmerman case.
hotsauceman1 wrote: My dad was a hells Angel. If there are one group of people you do not mess with it is bikers. I heard some stories of a man being killed with a Pool Cue.
The SUV wasn't purposely trying to hurt the biker, he stopped and normally when not swarmed by a bunch of men who should know better, he would of called 9-11 helped the biker and the normal traffic scene would ensue. However in this scenario the biker GANG yes GANG, assaulted the SUV so when the SUV driver tried to PROTECT his family they followed him and nearly beat him to death. Yes crap happens and he had to run over three bikers, but wouldn't you if you were in the scenario? If he had a sidearm he would of pumped holes in those bikers and the situation would of gotten worse.
This. Bikers are doing this in NY because people are defenseless. Here in PA, we don't have biker gangs. We carry guns, and if people punch our cars and threaten our families, we fething shoot them in the face while their friends watch.
This. Bikers are doing this in NY because people are defenseless. Here in PA, we don't have biker gangs. We carry guns, and if people punch our cars and threaten our families, we fething shoot them in the face while their friends watch.
Here in the area of TN that I live in, we have a gakload of biker gangs, but "luckily" for us, they all seem to know each other, and only mess with each other, not other random motorists/neighbors.
First thing I said to myself after watching this was, "and bikers wonder why they are so hated?" and "this is why we cant have nice things".. followed by (when the SUV left the highway) "what an idiot!"
Hopefully they throw the book at the bikers (the whole lot of them), and hopefully some good comes to the SUV, as I honestly believe that he did nothing wrong in that situation, seems fairly clear in the video, even with the editing treatment it was given, that the motorcyclists started the whole thing.
Truly, guns in the hands of private citizens have eliminated all crime in this 2nd amendment utopia! What can't they fix?
Definitely not in the numbers that exist in NY, and they don't often pull similar stunts. Also, lose the attitude and reevaluate your manhood. A man who is afraid of guns won't have the tools needed to protect his family.
This. Bikers are doing this in NY because people are defenseless. Here in PA, we don't have biker gangs. We carry guns, and if people punch our cars and threaten our families, we fething shoot them in the face while their friends watch.
Here in the area of TN that I live in, we have a gakload of biker gangs, but "luckily" for us, they all seem to know each other, and only mess with each other, not other random motorists/neighbors.
First thing I said to myself after watching this was, "and bikers wonder why they are so hated?" and "this is why we cant have nice things".. followed by (when the SUV left the highway) "what an idiot!"
Hopefully they throw the book at the bikers (the whole lot of them), and hopefully some good comes to the SUV, as I honestly believe that he did nothing wrong in that situation, seems fairly clear in the video, even with the editing treatment it was given, that the motorcyclists started the whole thing.
I say we throw and actual book at them, Like a hardback steven king novel
NuggzTheNinja wrote: Definitely not in the numbers that exist in NY, and they don't often pull similar stunts. Also, lose the attitude and reevaluate your manhood. A man who is afraid of guns won't have the tools needed to protect his family.
1.) You're moving the goalposts
2.) The personal attack isn't necessary, and it's also wrong
Levity aside, I know my friends that have had guns pointed at them have been afraid of them (as I would be). But I am curious as to how you might compare motorcycle gangs in NY and PA, such that PA has fewer.
SUV guy is lucky it was just a bunch of wimps on crotch rockets. Angels, Pagans or one of the other big 1%er groups? That would have ended poorly. They don't usually pull gak like that though. They have bigger fish to fry then a candy donkey in a cage.
I don't think SUV should be criminally liable. Civil liability for the paralyzing of that one biker? Eh we'll see. I don't have an opinion either way.
Alfndrate wrote: I laughed when the SUV tore out of there. I'm a terrible person, but when the video showed the biker stopping as he did to get hit by the SUV, I had no sympathy.
You know at first I thought the facebook page was funny. Now I just find it digusting. Ireally wish they would take it down. Yeah these guys were idiots and asking for it, but the amount of hate on that page for a guy that is in a coma is just crazy. I just imagine him waking up, not knowing what he did and seeing that page.
Sad thing is his page has more likes that the SUV driver.
This. Bikers are doing this in NY because people are defenseless. Here in PA, we don't have biker gangs. We carry guns, and if people punch our cars and threaten our families, we fething shoot them in the face while their friends watch.
Here in the area of TN that I live in, we have a gakload of biker gangs, but "luckily" for us, they all seem to know each other, and only mess with each other, not other random motorists/neighbors.
First thing I said to myself after watching this was, "and bikers wonder why they are so hated?" and "this is why we cant have nice things".. followed by (when the SUV left the highway) "what an idiot!"
Hopefully they throw the book at the bikers (the whole lot of them), and hopefully some good comes to the SUV, as I honestly believe that he did nothing wrong in that situation, seems fairly clear in the video, even with the editing treatment it was given, that the motorcyclists started the whole thing.
I say we throw and actual book at them, Like a hardback steven king novel
In honor of Tom Clancy, a box with all his novels in it.
Am I correct to understand that the family of the paralyzed man who has not been charged with any crimes has hired two prominent civil rights attorneys?
This thread truly saddens me. Almost every poster here has blindly bought into the anti-
motorcyclist bias of the media.
You guys ignore the actual visual evidence in favor of the media's one-sided audio and written
"Story".
Seriously, watch the video in chronological order without the media commentary and you see a
case of either neglegent or aggressive driving on the part of the SUV driver after the motorcyclist
made an admittedly sketchy pass.
Thing is, the sketchy pass does not absolve the SUV driver of his responsibility to maintain a safe distance.
The SUV driver did not back off in the 3-4 seconds before the motorcyclist turned to his griend and rolled off the throttle (note rolled off the throttl, NOT hit his brakes)
After he rolled off the throttle, the SUV driver had plenty of time to hit his brakes, yet did not until he was a few inches from contact.
Poiñt I'm making is that anything that followed does not absolve the SUV from hitting another vehicle from behind.
Now, about the "bikers" surrounding the SUV and "supposedly" hitting the vehicle and slashing the tires. The video of him gunning through the bikes does not show a crowd assaulting nor do you see flat tires.
Also note that the rider hit was supposedly still under the vehicle and was further injured when the SUV driver plowed away.
Could it be that his friends stopped to try and help thier seriously hurt comrade. Now I admit that this last is speculation, but it is logical spéculation that better matches the video and makes more sense than the
drivers story.
Honestly, I wonder if there is a racial or eletism element that explains the SUV drivers panic better than the "bikers jumped me just because" story.
I am also curious as to what happened just before the pass and subsequent wreck.
The rider gave the SUV driver the same look that I giv e texting drivers that pull into my lane while I'm beside them on my bike.
Finally, while I truly believe the SUV driver to be at fault for the wreck, the motorcyclists should have
called the cops and at most, follow the SUV until the cops could detain him for the hit & run.
They were wrong to bash in the window and for assaulting him....even though he had just committed vehicular assault.
As a last bit, I want to note that I don't like defending these crash test dummies. They make life a lot harder for the majority of motorcyclists who are safe and respectful of both the law and other drivers.
You want to do stunts and pop wheelies....rent a parking lot, take a stunt class or find a race track that will let you do such on a track day. Just keep that stupid gak off of the public roads.
later
Alfndrate wrote: I laughed when the SUV tore out of there. I'm a terrible person, but when the video showed the biker stopping as he did to get hit by the SUV, I had no sympathy.
Pretty much. Brake checking the SUV (transmission braking so no brake light), and looking over your shoulder while doing it, doesn't scream innocent to me. Nor does the fact that the bikers pulled all videos and photos of their stunts off their site. I'm glad that the guy who did the brake check that all this escalated from has been charged by the Police with reckless driving. The bike gang caused this incident, and then escalated it to the point where the family in the SUV feared for their lives and had to try and escape after having their tires slashed and windows broken.
Thing is, the sketchy pass does not absolve the SUV driver of his responsibility to maintain a safe distance.
The SUV driver did not back off in the 3-4 seconds before the motorcyclist turned to his griend and rolled off the throttle (note rolled off the throttl, NOT hit his brakes)
After he rolled off the throttle, the SUV driver had plenty of time to hit his brakes, yet did not until he was a few inches from contact.
I'm the last person to come in defense of an SUV driver. I drive a car, and every accident I've been in (none of which I was at-fault for) have been due to careless SUV drivers. I'm also the last person to start talking in defense of the law, but here, have a read:
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Rights/State-Laws.aspx?stateid=32
Now, let's play "spot the problems".
Motorcycles in one lane more than two abreast? Yes.
Lane splitting with the SUV? Yes.
(not to mention the illegal rally to begin with)
That's reckless.
Now watch the video again. Note 0:23. He's about 4-5 feet in front of the SUV, having just cut IN HIS LANE, looking behind him the while. He knows how close that SUV is. Now note 0:24-0:26. Note the relative speed of the other motorcyclists. Note that he's looking behind him AS he cuts off the gas. Remember that I said just a second ago is when he completely cut the SUV off. SUV guy probably could have hit the break in the one second before the bike in front of him suddenly slowed down without break light if he was fully alert and reacting to the situation. Remember that the biker himself wasn't watching where he was going for two seconds. Now consider that he was watching the SUV gaining on him.
Maybe the guy was texting. Maybe the guy was screaming at his kid. Maybe the guy was watching all the other bikes around him to make sure someone else isn't about to pull that exact stunt. I can't say. I wasn't there. You know who does know what happened? The biker who was watching the SUV slam into him while he deliberately cut the gas.
Poiñt I'm making is that anything that followed does not absolve the SUV from hitting another vehicle from behind.
Now, about the "bikers" surrounding the SUV and "supposedly" hitting the vehicle and slashing the tires. The video of him gunning through the bikes does not show a crowd assaulting nor do you see flat tires.
I'm surprised you can see them that well, all I can see is the heads of the bikers behind the other ones. I can't really make out what's happening around the SUV.
Also note that the rider hit was supposedly still under the vehicle and was further injured when the SUV driver plowed away.
Could it be that his friends stopped to try and help thier seriously hurt comrade. Now I admit that this last is speculation, but it is logical spéculation that better matches the video and makes more sense than the
drivers story.
Honestly, I wonder if there is a racial or eletism element that explains the SUV drivers panic better than the "bikers jumped me just because" story.
There's that word again! Why, maybe he was feeling entitled too! Perhaps you are biased?
I am also curious as to what happened just before the pass and subsequent wreck.
The rider gave the SUV driver the same look that I giv e texting drivers that pull into my lane while I'm beside them on my bike.
Ah, but do you give them that look while you're driving 5 feet in front of them having just driven into their lane and cut them off? If so, you either have eyes in the back of your helmet, or you're not looking where you're going, just as liable to do the exact same thing the SUV did.
Finally, while I truly believe the SUV driver to be at fault for the wreck, the motorcyclists should have
called the cops and at most, follow the SUV until the cops could detain him for the hit & run.
They were wrong to bash in the window and for assaulting him....even though he had just committed vehicular assault.
As a last bit, I want to note that I don't like defending these crash test dummies. They make life a lot harder for the majority of motorcyclists who are safe and respectful of both the law and other drivers.
You want to do stunts and pop wheelies....rent a parking lot, take a stunt class or find a race track that will let you do such on a track day. Just keep that stupid gak off of the public roads.
later
That much I can agree with.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Holy gak, did I just blame the victim?
I'm the last person to come in defense of an SUV driver. I drive a car, and every accident I've been in (none of which I was at-fault for) have been due to careless SUV drivers. I'm also the last person to start talking in defense of the law, but here, have a read:
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Rights/State-Laws.aspx?stateid=32
I drive a 1-ton truck and unlike the majority posting in this thread I also ride a motorcycle. Have over a 100,000 miles of two wheeling under my butt and as such have a bit of perspective that the "Its ok to just mow motorcyclist over cause I'm an Interwebs tough guys" do not have.
As to your reference to the law, while it mentions some of the things you mention below, there is nothing in the link that absolves the SUV driver from his responsibility to immediately back off from the person who just pulled in front of him. Doesn't matter whether the pass was safe or not, He(The SUV driver) had a duty to maintain a safe following distance from the vehicle in front of him. As soon as the bike pulled in he was supposed to fall back to the suggested 2 second following distance. The SUV Driver failed to do this and is thus at fault for rear ending the vehicle in front of him.
Daedalus wrote:
Now, let's play "spot the problems".
Motorcycles in one lane more than two abreast? Yes.
Lane splitting with the SUV? Yes.
(not to mention the illegal rally to begin with)
That's reckless.
OK, I'll Play.
1)Motorcycles 2 abreast? Not illegal in all states and allowed while bikes swap off lead positions
2)Lane splitting? Agreed, Yes. Though not an excuse for the SUV Drivers failure to subsequently maintain proper following distance or for hitting the guy in front. Also, Lane splitting is not illegal in all states and is legal in the majority of other nations. Basically, it is a common practice. Not making an excuse or stating whether I agree with the practice,...just it is what it is.
3) Illegal Rally??? The constitutionalist in me wants to argue the right to assemble but that is for another thread. .....*Also, very difficult to argue the point when concerning a group that had more than its share of ass-hat riders.
4)You are distracting from the "real" problems with the above minutia. The real problem was the to common problem of drivers not wanting to yield or back off from a vehicle that just pulled in front of them. This failure to yield leads to the dangerous and all to common practice up on the east coast of tailgating.
Daedalus wrote:
Now watch the video again. Note 0:23. He's about 4-5 feet in front of the SUV, having just cut IN HIS LANE, looking behind him the while. He knows how close that SUV is. Now note 0:24-0:26. Note the relative speed of the other motorcyclists. Note that he's looking behind him AS he cuts off the gas. Remember that I said just a second ago is when he completely cut the SUV off. SUV guy probably could have hit the break in the one second before the bike in front of him suddenly slowed down without break light if he was fully alert and reacting to the situation. Remember that the biker himself wasn't watching where he was going for two seconds. Now consider that he was watching the SUV gaining on him.
Maybe the guy was texting. Maybe the guy was screaming at his kid. Maybe the guy was watching all the other bikes around him to make sure someone else isn't about to pull that exact stunt. I can't say. I wasn't there. You know who does know what happened? The biker who was watching the SUV slam into him while he deliberately cut the gas.
I'd just like to point out that you are making the assumption that the rider is watching the SUV. Sure it looks like that "could" be the case but consider this.
1)The rider pulled in front, then looked over his right shoulder to check how much distance he had.
2)The rider then looks ahead for a couple of seconds.
3)The SUV never backs off to a safe distance.
4)The rider then looks over his left shoulder...but at what? a)His face shield is tinted so you can't see his eyes. b) To me he is looking at the rider with the helmet cam until the last second when the SUV gets to close.
Now I freely admit that the motorcyclist in question that got hit was being a complete dumb-ass......but that is why we have laws that by default place the blame on the driver who hits the other from the rear. We are supposed to watch out and avoid the dumb-asses, not join in with their ass-hattery.
Daedalus wrote:
Captain Avatar wrote:
Now, about the "bikers" surrounding the SUV and "supposedly" hitting the vehicle and slashing the tires. The video of him gunning through the bikes does not show a crowd assaulting nor do you see flat tires.
I'm surprised you can see them that well, all I can see is the heads of the bikers behind the other ones. I can't really make out what's happening around the SUV.
If you can't see then do a timer count. The occupants of the SUV claim a lot of activity for 19-24 seconds. Check the time from the hit at 27 seconds, the bikes stopped at about 31-32 seconds and him gunning the vehicle away at 51 seconds.
Sure people were rushing at the vehicle, they had a fellow biker trapped under it.
Just by time alone there is not enough time for what the SUV occupants claim to have happened and real time elapsed. The riders were still trying to get to their friend when he took off(thus hitting the downed rider again by the accounts given so far.
Daedalus wrote:
There's that word again! Why, maybe he was feeling entitled too! Perhaps you are biased?
Perhaps, perhaps not. Please to note that I said that "I wonder" if such was a factor. Not the same as an accusation. It was merely a question as to possible motives for actions that do not make sense with the story and facts presented.
Daedalus wrote:
Captain Avatar wrote:
I am also curious as to what happened just before the pass and subsequent wreck.
The rider gave the SUV driver the same look that I give texting drivers that pull into my lane while I'm beside them on my bike.
Ah, but do you give them that look while you're driving 5 feet in front of them having just driven into their lane and cut them off? If so, you either have eyes in the back of your helmet, or you're not looking where you're going, just as liable to do the exact same thing the SUV did.
I was referring to the look the rider gave the driver while beside the vehicle.
To explain:
Last month a lady in a Jeep Grand Cherokee was in the lane next to me. I was parallel to her driver side window and was able to see here texting as she pulled into my lane. I was right beside her, there was no looking or turn signal. Just her flipping me the bird for honking my horn while diving into the break down lane to avoid being hit.
I'm not saying that the SUV driver was doing the same, just that many other such prior experiences have shown me that such can happen and that I now have a prejudice against Texting drivers.
Again, please to note that I absolutely agree that there were some idiots in the motorcycle group that was involved.
Also note that not all or even most of the group in question were idiots. Out of a large undisciplined group there were only a few that were involved in the assault on the SUV driver.
I agree with Captain Avatar that it might be a little too early to form an opinion one way or the other. I've seen an awful lot of news stories with provocative video like this that later turned out to be missing a lot of context from what happened before, what you can't see, etc. I mean, nothing wrong with saying, from what I can see here, I think SUV guy was in the right; but I think it would be prudent to remain open minded to more facts coming out in the days to come. Reporting really is terrible these days.
I'm sorry Captain Avatar, but the bikers were trying to bully the RR.
The bike brake checked the RR. Whatever he was trying to do the biker did not make a "scetcy pass". He was trying to bully and intimidate the car. Thie biker looks over his sholder to see how close he is to the car. He got it wrong and got hit.
I am most defiantly not "anti bike". I ride myself, have done for the past 10 years, commuting 50 miles a day in all weathers. My wife dose too. I have seen all sorts of stupidity on the road and brake checking a 3 ton car is high on the list of dumbest things. If he was tale gateing the thing to do on a bike is not brake, it is to accelerate and pull out a gap.
I happen to agree that the biker was at fault. I have been on two wheels for over 25 years. My current ride is an 08 Ultra Classic (geezer glide) as well as a driver of SUV's. In said video if you look at the position of the bike at second 19 or so the biker is crossing the lane BESIDE the SUV ... not in front but beside of him ... in the SUV lane. This is a sign of stupidity that is to come.
Saying that the SUV failed to maintain an assured cleared distance is a moot point. The biker has an obligation to do the same as well, and in this case ... epic fail. Call me hateful or whatever but I can assure you of this if these morons had put my wife's life in danger like they did with Lien's, let alone his daughter ( I have no kids to compare this to ) I can assure you the headline would have read something like this :
Man in an angry red Jeep Wrangler plays Bump and Jump on highway, 42 bikes destroyed!
Quote from man: After the first guy wanted to put my wife in harms way by his idiocy and then his buddies wanted to hurt myself and my wife I thought it was the only responsible thing to do to get out of there, 63 bikes were in my way and 42 of them were to stupid to realize that my tires would not be stopped by a crotch rocket.
I will grant that ... It is like riding my Lazy Boy down the highway!
These little toughguys want to be all badassed and tough on the road but yet they will not be man enough to step forward and say 'That was me that done that' when it comes down to it.
Steve steveson wrote:I'm sorry Captain Avatar, but the bikers were trying to bully the RR.
The bike brake checked the RR. Whatever he was trying to do the biker did not make a "scetcy pass". He was trying to bully and intimidate the car. Thie biker looks over his sholder to see how close he is to the car. He got it wrong and got hit.
I am most defiantly not "anti bike". I ride myself, have done for the past 10 years, commuting 50 miles a day in all weathers. My wife dose too. I have seen all sorts of stupidity on the road and brake checking a 3 ton car is high on the list of dumbest things. If he was tale gateing the thing to do on a bike is not brake, it is to accelerate and pull out a gap.
The genral view is that the RR could have handled it better, but there is zero sympathy for the bikes.
You and the forums you posted are in error. Not for blaming the rider, I have never tried to deny his level of responsibility.
Where you guys are wrong is your rush to absolve the SUV driver of his responsibility.
You claim the rider was bullying the SUV but you have no proof other than conjecture as to what you think the rider is doing and a very slanted/sensationalized story.
I'm arguing basic fundaental law and rules of the road.
Again, yes the motorcyclist was riding like an idiot but it doesn't change the SUV drivers duty to back pff to a safe distance. 2 wrongs don't add up to a right (but 3 left turns do ).
Do you really want to argue that one driver being an idiot allows a second to not only do the same but to alsohit someone else and not be responsible? Especially as the SUV driver had time to back off.
For those that are having trouble following my point:
1)The rider was not riding safely or with tegard to his own well being
2)The SUV Driver failed to follow a basic rule in following distance and also failed to act when he had time to do so.
3)Niether individuals actions absolves the other of thier responsibility in the subsequent wreck
4) By the law, not media hyped emotion, the following should happen.
A) The Rider: ticketed for lane splitting, unsafe pass and possibly failure to maintain speed(depends upon the road they were on)
B) SUV driver: Ticketed for following too closely/failure to maintain safe distance then subsequently speeding and reckless driving.
Then Charged with negligence, hit & run and vehicular assault
C) Bikers that followed speeding SUV: speeding &reckless driving.
D) Bikers that attacked: assault to aggravated assault.
Again, my stance is based strictly upon the law.
OIIIIIIO wrote:I happen to agree that the biker was at fault. I have been on two wheels for over 25 years. My current ride is an 08 Ultra Classic (geezer glide) as well as a driver of SUV's. In said video if you look at the position of the bike at second 19 or so the biker is crossing the lane BESIDE the SUV ... not in front but beside of him ... in the SUV lane. This is a sign of stupidity that is to come.
Saying that the SUV failed to maintain an assured cleared distance is a moot point. The biker has an obligation to do the same as well, and in this case ... epic fail. Call me hateful or whatever but I can assure you of this if these morons had put my wife's life in danger like they did with Lien's, let alone his daughter ( I have no kids to compare this to ) I can assure you the headline would have read something like this :
Man in an angry red Jeep Wrangler plays Bump and Jump on highway, 42 bikes destroyed!
Quote from man: After the first guy wanted to put my wife in harms way by his idiocy and then his buddies wanted to hurt myself and my wife I thought it was the only responsible thing to do to get out of there, 63 bikes were in my way and 42 of them were to stupid to realize that my tires would not be stopped by a crotch rocket.
Harley rider huh? Never could get used to them.Can't stand the taste of starbucks and I like to ride every day as opposed to polishing chrome every other day. ;b Just some friendly ribbing from a bavarian bomber that rides a flying brick.
As to where we disagree. The distance issue is not moot from the standpoint of the law. Once the bike had successfully pulled in front of the suv(note-without making the SUV slow down). The SUV driver had a duty to back off. This is basic driving 101. The bike maintained speed long enought for it to be considered a pass which placed a burden upon the SUV driver to act appropriately.
Now do I like it when someone passes me just to slow down to a pace that is slower than mine? Hell no!
Does a driver doing such give me the right to hit that person without consequence? Again, Hell no!
Why is this so? Somebody being an idiot does not excuse us from our responsibilities to act appropriately.
@ all posters, I've noticed a lot of crotch rocket comments that indicate or come across as a bias against such bikes. I ask you this, "would you view the video differently if they were all riding Harlies?
Think about it, seriously.
I ask this because of a bit of irony in that Hardly Ablesome (just a joke) makes a huge profit off of selling over priced goods that convey the "outlaw biker" image that Harley gained in the 1950's-1970's.
For those of you too young to have experienced this, find an old biker and ask about things like the 1960's-1970's Hells Angel & Bandito "argument" over the I-10 corridor.
Now while I may crack rivalry based jokes at my fellow riders, the truth is that I'm glad they ride and wish more people rode. It doesn't matter what you ride, as long as you RIDE.
If we increased the US riding population from 3% to 10% the corresponding drop in driving congestion during most peoples riding seasons(I ride year round) would alleviate the majority of gridlock issues in our major cities.
If you want to ride, find your local Motorcycle Safety Foundation riders ed course, get proper safety gear and remember that riding is an assumed risk.
I'm the last person to come in defense of an SUV driver. I drive a car, and every accident I've been in (none of which I was at-fault for) have been due to careless SUV drivers. I'm also the last person to start talking in defense of the law, but here, have a read:
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Rights/State-Laws.aspx?stateid=32
I drive a 1-ton truck and unlike the majority posting in this thread I also ride a motorcycle. Have over a 100,000 miles of two wheeling under my butt and as such have a bit of perspective that the "Its ok to just mow motorcyclist over cause I'm an Interwebs tough guys" do not have.
As to your reference to the law, while it mentions some of the things you mention below, there is nothing in the link that absolves the SUV driver from his responsibility to immediately back off from the person who just pulled in front of him. Doesn't matter whether the pass was safe or not, He(The SUV driver) had a duty to maintain a safe following distance from the vehicle in front of him. As soon as the bike pulled in he was supposed to fall back to the suggested 2 second following distance. The SUV Driver failed to do this and is thus at fault for rear ending the vehicle in front of him.
Daedalus wrote:
Now, let's play "spot the problems".
Motorcycles in one lane more than two abreast? Yes.
Lane splitting with the SUV? Yes.
(not to mention the illegal rally to begin with)
That's reckless.
OK, I'll Play.
1)Motorcycles 2 abreast? Not illegal in all states and allowed while bikes swap off lead positions
2)Lane splitting? Agreed, Yes. Though not an excuse for the SUV Drivers failure to subsequently maintain proper following distance or for hitting the guy in front. Also, Lane splitting is not illegal in all states and is legal in the majority of other nations. Basically, it is a common practice. Not making an excuse or stating whether I agree with the practice,...just it is what it is.
3) Illegal Rally??? The constitutionalist in me wants to argue the right to assemble but that is for another thread. .....*Also, very difficult to argue the point when concerning a group that had more than its share of ass-hat riders.
4)You are distracting from the "real" problems with the above minutia. The real problem was the to common problem of drivers not wanting to yield or back off from a vehicle that just pulled in front of them. This failure to yield leads to the dangerous and all to common practice up on the east coast of tailgating.
Daedalus wrote:
Now watch the video again. Note 0:23. He's about 4-5 feet in front of the SUV, having just cut IN HIS LANE, looking behind him the while. He knows how close that SUV is. Now note 0:24-0:26. Note the relative speed of the other motorcyclists. Note that he's looking behind him AS he cuts off the gas. Remember that I said just a second ago is when he completely cut the SUV off. SUV guy probably could have hit the break in the one second before the bike in front of him suddenly slowed down without break light if he was fully alert and reacting to the situation. Remember that the biker himself wasn't watching where he was going for two seconds. Now consider that he was watching the SUV gaining on him.
Maybe the guy was texting. Maybe the guy was screaming at his kid. Maybe the guy was watching all the other bikes around him to make sure someone else isn't about to pull that exact stunt. I can't say. I wasn't there. You know who does know what happened? The biker who was watching the SUV slam into him while he deliberately cut the gas.
I'd just like to point out that you are making the assumption that the rider is watching the SUV. Sure it looks like that "could" be the case but consider this.
1)The rider pulled in front, then looked over his right shoulder to check how much distance he had.
2)The rider then looks ahead for a couple of seconds.
3)The SUV never backs off to a safe distance.
4)The rider then looks over his left shoulder...but at what? a)His face shield is tinted so you can't see his eyes. b) To me he is looking at the rider with the helmet cam until the last second when the SUV gets to close.
Now I freely admit that the motorcyclist in question that got hit was being a complete dumb-ass......but that is why we have laws that by default place the blame on the driver who hits the other from the rear. We are supposed to watch out and avoid the dumb-asses, not join in with their ass-hattery.
Daedalus wrote:
Captain Avatar wrote:
Now, about the "bikers" surrounding the SUV and "supposedly" hitting the vehicle and slashing the tires. The video of him gunning through the bikes does not show a crowd assaulting nor do you see flat tires.
I'm surprised you can see them that well, all I can see is the heads of the bikers behind the other ones. I can't really make out what's happening around the SUV.
If you can't see then do a timer count. The occupants of the SUV claim a lot of activity for 19-24 seconds. Check the time from the hit at 27 seconds, the bikes stopped at about 31-32 seconds and him gunning the vehicle away at 51 seconds.
Sure people were rushing at the vehicle, they had a fellow biker trapped under it.
Just by time alone there is not enough time for what the SUV occupants claim to have happened and real time elapsed. The riders were still trying to get to their friend when he took off(thus hitting the downed rider again by the accounts given so far.
Daedalus wrote:
There's that word again! Why, maybe he was feeling entitled too! Perhaps you are biased?
Perhaps, perhaps not. Please to note that I said that "I wonder" if such was a factor. Not the same as an accusation. It was merely a question as to possible motives for actions that do not make sense with the story and facts presented.
Daedalus wrote:
Captain Avatar wrote:
I am also curious as to what happened just before the pass and subsequent wreck.
The rider gave the SUV driver the same look that I give texting drivers that pull into my lane while I'm beside them on my bike.
Ah, but do you give them that look while you're driving 5 feet in front of them having just driven into their lane and cut them off? If so, you either have eyes in the back of your helmet, or you're not looking where you're going, just as liable to do the exact same thing the SUV did.
I was referring to the look the rider gave the driver while beside the vehicle.
To explain:
Last month a lady in a Jeep Grand Cherokee was in the lane next to me. I was parallel to her driver side window and was able to see here texting as she pulled into my lane. I was right beside her, there was no looking or turn signal. Just her flipping me the bird for honking my horn while diving into the break down lane to avoid being hit.
I'm not saying that the SUV driver was doing the same, just that many other such prior experiences have shown me that such can happen and that I now have a prejudice against Texting drivers.
Again, please to note that I absolutely agree that there were some idiots in the motorcycle group that was involved.
Also note that not all or even most of the group in question were idiots. Out of a large undisciplined group there were only a few that were involved in the assault on the SUV driver.
I was literally raised on motorcycles. Some of my youngest memories are being in the pit with mom for Team Frazzled during one of dad's many races. I learned to ride a bicycle and drove my first Bike one day later and was dirt dauber racing at 8. The wife and I getting new bikes this coming summer and only delayed so we could focus on TBone hospice. So understand where I am coming from.
Everything on the video is six ways to sunday wrong. If it were me or the Wife, there would have been way more than then two in the hospital. The moment you try to open a door we'll open up on you.
Where you guys are wrong is your rush to absolve the SUV driver of his responsibility.
As with all traffic incidents both parties bear a portion of the responsibility. The debate isn't about that basic principle, the debate is about who is primarily responsible for the whole of this particular incident.
You claim the rider was bullying the SUV but you have no proof other than conjecture as to what you think the rider is doing and a very slanted/sensationalized story.
Of course there is proof. After all, there is a widely available video which depicts the riders actions. Actions to which motive can easily be attached.
Bear in mind "proof" does not have to be absolute in order to be proof.
Do you really want to argue that one driver being an idiot allows a second to not only do the same but to also hit someone else and not be responsible? Especially as the SUV driver had time to back off.
Yes, because that argument is made in court every day. And, when there is evidence which extends beyond a police report, it often works.
The letter of it, but not the way it is administered. Given the available video no one in their right mind would bring criminal charges against the SUV driver because there is no way in hell a conviction could be obtained. And yes, part of that is a bias against motorcyclists. But the bulk of it is that the defense would argue the driver was protecting his family; good luck with that as a prosecutor.
hotsauceman1 wrote: My dad was a hells Angel. If there are one group of people you do not mess with it is bikers. I heard some stories of a man being killed with a Pool Cue.
The SUV wasn't purposely trying to hurt the biker, he stopped and normally when not swarmed by a bunch of men who should know better, he would of called 9-11 helped the biker and the normal traffic scene would ensue. However in this scenario the biker GANG yes GANG, assaulted the SUV so when the SUV driver tried to PROTECT his family they followed him and nearly beat him to death. Yes crap happens and he had to run over three bikers, but wouldn't you if you were in the scenario? If he had a sidearm he would of pumped holes in those bikers and the situation would of gotten worse.
This. Bikers are doing this in NY because people are defenseless. Here in PA, we don't have biker gangs. We carry guns, and if people punch our cars and threaten our families, we fething shoot them in the face while their friends watch.
It's good to hear that you wiped out the Pagans in PA. and other biker gangs that were there when I lived in that state, but I don't recall hearing about this mass extinction event on the news.
Especially as the SUV driver had time to back off.
The point is he didn't. The bike pulled in on him, brake checked him and got it wrong. You don't know how many times they did this before the crash happed, and they were surrounding the RR. He had them on all sides. I would guess they had been doing that for a while. The RR was not tale gateing. The bike was slowing in to him. They look like they were trying to get him to stop, or at least be a pain in the ass.
The bike put himself in that posision. As far as I am concerned the RR is not 100% without blaim and could have handled it better by just locking the doors and driving forward at 10mph, but the biker was responsible for the initial accident.
Your completely ignoring the fact that the bike pulled in, slowed down and brake checked the RR. Your talking about him pulling in safely with is rubbish. He was brake checking the RR and had no intention at all to make a safe pass and carry on.
However, you were accusing people of anti bike bias. People with lots of pro bike bias disagree with you.
The Lawrence motorcyclist struck and paralyzed as a desperate SUV driver tried to escape the rage of other bikers in New York on Sunday has a six-page criminal record that began at age 12 with a negligent driving charge and includes jail time for drugs, guns, resisting arrest and other convictions, according to court records.
Edwin Mieses, 32, never got a driver’s license in the Bay State, the Registry of Motor Vehicles said, but he was frequently nabbed behind the wheel, and even sentenced to jail for driving without a license, court records show. Mieses has a pending case out of Lawrence District Court for driving suspended, subsequent offense, said Carrie Kimball Monihan, spokeswoman for the Essex County District Attorney’s Office. Mieses also has 15 guilty findings for criminal offenses including distribution of cocaine, possession of a firearm without a permit, knowingly receiving stolen property, resisting arrest and several motor vehicle violations, court records show.
Mieses was sentenced to jail in 2004 for distribution of cocaine, in 2001 for operating without a license, in 2000 for possession of a firearm, and in 1999 for possession of marijuana, receiving stolen property, destruction of property and attaching plates, according to court records.
I'm the last person to come in defense of an SUV driver. I drive a car, and every accident I've been in (none of which I was at-fault for) have been due to careless SUV drivers. I'm also the last person to start talking in defense of the law, but here, have a read:
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Rights/State-Laws.aspx?stateid=32
As to your reference to the law, while it mentions some of the things you mention below, there is nothing in the link that absolves the SUV driver from his responsibility to immediately back off from the person who just pulled in front of him. Doesn't matter whether the pass was safe or not, He(The SUV driver) had a duty to maintain a safe following distance from the vehicle in front of him. As soon as the bike pulled in he was supposed to fall back to the suggested 2 second following distance. The SUV Driver failed to do this and is thus at fault for rear ending the vehicle in front of him.
Last month a lady in a Jeep Grand Cherokee was in the lane next to me. I was parallel to her driver side window and was able to see here texting as she pulled into my lane. I was right beside her, there was no looking or turn signal. Just her flipping me the bird for honking my horn while diving into the break down lane to avoid being hit.
I'm not saying that the SUV driver was doing the same, just that many other such prior experiences have shown me that such can happen and that I now have a prejudice against Texting drivers.
Again, please to note that I absolutely agree that there were some idiots in the motorcycle group that was involved.
Also note that not all or even most of the group in question were idiots. Out of a large undisciplined group there were only a few that were involved in the assault on the SUV driver.
Judging from the video itself, it looks to me that the first rider is riding a lot closer to the SUV at the side than would be reasonable for anything OTHER than an intimidation and harassment tactic. I agree that the SUV driver could/should have backed off, but by my estimation, the guy was literally TRYING to get hit by the SUV, it's fairly clear to me by the amount of clearance the two vehicles had basically the entire time... But tell me, Captain Avatar, when you were parallel to that Grand Cherokee driver, until she changed lanes without looking, were you as close to her as the guy in the video? No? Well that makes you instantly more responsible than him. As a car driver, and a bicyclist, I basically hate all motorists equally. In the area where I live, motorists in general have a blatant disregard for all speed laws, and a homicidally blatant hatred of what are legally Bike Lanes/ Emergency pull off lanes (most people think that they are turn lanes, and whats worse the local PD do not enforce hardly any traffic laws in the area)
Now it turns out there was an undercover cop at the scene that didn't do jack crap to stop the situation. You'd think he could have at least called in more cops. Gotta love New York.
Frazzled wrote:
I was literally raised on motorcycles. Some of my youngest memories are being in the pit with mom for Team Frazzled during one of dad's many races. I learned to ride a bicycle and drove my first Bike one day later and was dirt dauber racing at 8. The wife and I getting new bikes this coming summer and only delayed so we could focus on TBone hospice. So understand where I am coming from.
Everything on the video is six ways to sunday wrong. If it were me or the Wife, there would have been way more than then two in the hospital. The moment you try to open a door we'll open up on you.
Ah Frazz, I love your crotchety six-gun humor. While I am as staunch of a supporter of gun ownership rights as you, I would like to point out that statements like the one you posted above only hurt the image of responsible gun owners everywhere.
Comments about blasting away at first responders at an accident scene is truly saddening.
First responders? you might ask. Well, what would you and your riding group do if someone you were riding with was hit by a vehicle?
Would you attack the vehicle or would you rush to aid your fellow rider? Now, I can see there being a few hot heads but most would have been checking on the rider hit by the SUV.
Remember, There was only 20 seconds from the time the bikes stopped and when the driver gunned his vehicle to flee the scene. I'm willing to give him the doubt that he is an easily scared New Yorker that panicked at the site of "a gang" of so many bikers rushing towards the car.
Personally, I don't buy the story that has the riders immediately pulling out switch blades to slash tires (That were still inflated when the drivers sped away). Seriously, the SUV families story comes across like a mix of reefer madness and Brando's The Wild One.
Oh well,
Aside from that, what is your choice of ride? Cruiser, Adventure-Sport, Sport-Bike, Dirt Bike, Sport-Touring or something else? I ride an old Flying Brick myself.
Where you guys are wrong is your rush to absolve the SUV driver of his responsibility.
As with all traffic incidents both parties bear a portion of the responsibility. The debate isn't about that basic principle, the debate is about who is primarily responsible for the whole of this particular incident.
Not quite, the debate is a bit more broad and varied than this and you are placing a restriction that automatically dismisses my point that the entire incident was one bad decision compounded by a next one over and over. The point(s) that I am arguing are:
A) That all involved are to blame and should all have to bear the consequences of their decisions.
B) That actions after the incident should not be used to absolve a responsible party of the part that they played in causing the accident.
C) That many have a bias by how the story was sensationalized
D) That more than a few in this thread have expressed a basic anti-cyclist attitude and seem to be holding motorcyclist to a standard that they would not expect of car drivers
You claim the rider was bullying the SUV but you have no proof other than conjecture as to what you think the rider is doing and a very slanted/sensationalized story.
Of course there is proof. After all, there is a widely available video which depicts the riders actions. Actions to which motive can easily be attached.
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Bear in mind "proof" does not have to be absolute in order to be proof..
You are conflating a mixture of evidence & conjecture with proof. Proof is, in and of itself absolute. That is why it is proof.
What the video gives is visual evidence that would be up to the jury or judge to decide what were the most likely motives in play....and only after each side has made their case.
This is why I have a problem with how the story was sensationalized and how it presented a one-sided case rather than a more balanced approach.
Do you really want to argue that one driver being an idiot allows a second to not only do the same but to also hit someone else and not be responsible? Especially as the SUV driver had time to back off.
Yes, because that argument is made in court every day. And, when there is evidence which extends beyond a police report, it often works..
Correction, it "rarely" works. The fact that it only works on "rare" occasions is still enough for many people to try and use it as a defense for their mistakes.
The letter of it, but not the way it is administered. Given the available video no one in their right mind would bring criminal charges against the SUV driver because there is no way in hell a conviction could be obtained. And yes, part of that is a bias against motorcyclists. But the bulk of it is that the defense would argue the driver was protecting his family; good luck with that as a prosecutor.
Actually, my stance is based exactly upon how the law is administered.
The exceptions are:
When there is an institutional bias against one of the parties for some reason
And
When you have major media coverage playing judge and jury before the police can even properly investigate. It gets worse when you get cops speculating in on-screen interviews before the investigation has even really began
Especially as the SUV driver had time to back off.
The point is he didn't. The bike pulled in on him, brake checked him and got it wrong. You don't know how many times they did this before the crash happed, and they were surrounding the RR. He had them on all sides. I would guess they had been doing that for a while. The RR was not tale gateing. The bike was slowing in to him. They look like they were trying to get him to stop, or at least be a pain in the ass.
The bike put himself in that posision. As far as I am concerned the RR is not 100% without blaim and could have handled it better by just locking the doors and driving forward at 10mph, but the biker was responsible for the initial accident.
Your completely ignoring the fact that the bike pulled in, slowed down and brake checked the RR. Your talking about him pulling in safely with is rubbish. He was brake checking the RR and had no intention at all to make a safe pass and carry on.
However, you were accusing people of anti bike bias. People with lots of pro bike bias disagree with you.
1) The "point is" that the SUV driver did have time to react. Motorist have a duty to avoid an accident if they can. The SUV driver had, from time stamp 21 when the biker is in his lane and at the front fender to time stamp 26 to hit his brakes. He didn't until time stamp 27 when he was inches from the bike. If he had taken proper evasive action in those 5 usable seconds, the entire incident would have been avoided.
You say that the biker was being a bully, the same could be said for the SUV. He failed to give way to the bike. If it had been a large tractor truck pulling around and cutting in close, do you think he would have made the same choice to stay right on the trucks ass? ....This is the crux of the problem that I see in this video.
2)Thank you for conceding that the SUV driver was not without fault. That was one of my main points. Until I entered the conversation in this thread, everyone was looking at the incident from only one side.
3) You seem to be under the impression that I think that the rider is without fault. You are incorrect and I invite you to re-read my posts. After reviewing the tape on my second post, I have only argued that the SUV driver had time to back off and from a strictly legal point of view that he could be viewed as at fault.
A good lawyer will bring up my earlier question about whether he would have stayed just as close and maintained speed if a trucker had cut in that close. The answer would have to be no, which would show that the SUV driver was being more aggressive with the motorcyclist than he would normally be with other vehicles. If the driver actually answered, "Yes, that he would have maintained speed, even with a trucker", it would hurt his case just as much. It would show that he was as reckless, or more so, than the biker.
4)As to my alluding to anti-motorcyclist sentiments? Could you go back and read the first 2 pages of this thread. There were several mow down the bikers and negative biker stereo-types in just those 2 pages that could be viewed as anti-motorcyclist.
As to other cyclists that disagree with me on this?.. Oh well. We are still allowed to have differing opinions, at least until The prez declares martial law.
Spacemanvic wrote:Boo hoo, innocent biker my rump:
Spoiler:
The Lawrence motorcyclist struck and paralyzed as a desperate SUV driver tried to escape the rage of other bikers in New York on Sunday has a six-page criminal record that began at age 12 with a negligent driving charge and includes jail time for drugs, guns, resisting arrest and other convictions, according to court records.
Edwin Mieses, 32, never got a driver’s license in the Bay State, the Registry of Motor Vehicles said, but he was frequently nabbed behind the wheel, and even sentenced to jail for driving without a license, court records show. Mieses has a pending case out of Lawrence District Court for driving suspended, subsequent offense, said Carrie Kimball Monihan, spokeswoman for the Essex County District Attorney’s Office. Mieses also has 15 guilty findings for criminal offenses including distribution of cocaine, possession of a firearm without a permit, knowingly receiving stolen property, resisting arrest and several motor vehicle violations, court records show.
Mieses was sentenced to jail in 2004 for distribution of cocaine, in 2001 for operating without a license, in 2000 for possession of a firearm, and in 1999 for possession of marijuana, receiving stolen property, destruction of property and attaching plates, according to court records.
So, Your point is that it is ok to run over anyone with a criminal record?
Where is the cut-off? Anybody with a Felony? Class A misdemeanor? Do Juvie records count?
Are we supposed to just barrel down the highway and hope that whoever we hit has an outstanding parking ticket or are we talking David Carradine & Sly Stallone "old school" Death Race 2000
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Judging from the video itself, it looks to me that the first rider is riding a lot closer to the SUV at the side than would be reasonable for anything OTHER than an intimidation and harassment tactic. I agree that the SUV driver could/should have backed off, but by my estimation, the guy was literally TRYING to get hit by the SUV, it's fairly clear to me by the amount of clearance the two vehicles had basically the entire time... But tell me, Captain Avatar, when you were parallel to that Grand Cherokee driver, until she changed lanes without looking, were you as close to her as the guy in the video? No? Well that makes you instantly more responsible than him. As a car driver, and a bicyclist, I basically hate all motorists equally. In the area where I live, motorists in general have a blatant disregard for all speed laws, and a homicidally blatant hatred of what are legally Bike Lanes/ Emergency pull off lanes (most people think that they are turn lanes, and whats worse the local PD do not enforce hardly any traffic laws in the area)
Thank you for acknowledging that the SUV driver could/should have backed off. Once people accept this then we can begin to examine his driving choices in a manner that is balanced with how we examine the motorcyclists. Basically, once you accept that the SUV driver was also at fault and not just a completely innocent victim, then we can ask why he didn't back off like he would have with a big tractor trailer. Once people understand that then they can begin to see the anti-motorcyclist bias that riders deal with every day that they ride on public roads.
As to the incident with the Jeep Grand Cherokee.
I was in the passing/fast lane on I-45 during evening traffic. Was traveling faster than said jeep who was one lane over. As I was passing her, she accelerated and started to pull into my lane. I always ride paranoid and have constantly evolving escape routes for problems just as this one.
At that moment, my escape route was the break down lane because of traffic density and a tail-gating truck who had just pulled in behind me. Normally, another option would have been to accelerate out of the situation, but the suddenness of her movement and the traffic ahead dictated my diving into the break down lane.
You see, as a rider you try to never ride in blind spots and to not get boxed in, Note, I said "try". Invariably, you will end up in a less than optimal position at times when riding on public roads and highways. This is why you see many eiders constantly making lane and speed adjustments.
I understand your feelings. Back in the day I used to distance ride in BFE, Texas where the roads often had no shoulder and a lot of big truck traffic. As to motorists using the emergency lanes, Sounds almost like you live in Boston.
There's some sort of mental block I possess that prevents me from ever siding with a pack of idiots that decide to take their suspended licenses and ride around in a big group as part of something they refer to as "Hollywood Stuntz," so even if it wasn't painfully obvious that first bike was at fault, I'd still be unable to cast blame on the SUV driver.
@Avatar, if I were sitting in a vehicle with my wife and kids, surrounded by bikers who were beating it with helmets and spiking the tires as the police say was happening, I would be riding over people also to get my family out of there.
You might not have caught the story, but there was an undercover cop riding with the bikers that witnessed the incident.
Relapse wrote: Now it turns out there was an undercover cop at the scene that didn't do jack crap to stop the situation. You'd think he could have at least called in more cops. Gotta love New York.
Thanks for posting this. A lot of clarification about who was where that should have been in the original news story. Sounds like Mieses might be an innocent victim in this case. Also sounds like the N.Y. police have had this group in their sights for a while if there was an under cover cop infiltrated into the group. Would explain their handling of the media. I expect more to come out about this story that casts a different light than the original coverage.
Relapse wrote: Now it turns out there was an undercover cop at the scene that didn't do jack crap to stop the situation. You'd think he could have at least called in more cops. Gotta love New York.
Thanks for posting this. A lot of clarification about who was where that should have been in the original news story. Sounds like Mieses might be an innocent victim in this case. Also sounds like the N.Y. police have had this group in their sights for a while if there was an under cover cop infiltrated into the group. Would explain their handling of the media. I expect more to come out about this story that casts a different light than the original coverage.
The question in my mind is if the cop actually tried to do something to stop any of this, because the story doesn't make it seem that way.
Relapse wrote: @Avatar, if I were sitting in a vehicle with my wife and kids, surrounded by bikers who were beating it with helmets and spiking the tires as the police say was happening, I would be riding over people also to get my family out of there.
You might not have caught the story, but there was an undercover cop riding with the bikers that witnessed the incident.
And if I was driving that vehicle, It, myself and the passengers would never have been put into that position. This is because I would have treated the bike the same way as if it had been a tractor trailer. As soon as he got close beside me I would have slowed my vehicle down to give way.
You see, I'm old enough to not want the drama or need to seek out highly dramatic situations. Just look at how many in this thread are enjoying the fantasy of being the guy who mows down the bikes as opposed to those who are trying to use this as a learning moment of how to avoid such a situation.
From the SUV point of view-Where you are fantasizing about how you would mow the motorcyclists down, I'm looking at how they could have avoided the wreck and subsequent situation entirely.
Not trying to be overly critical, just trying to illustrate the difference in our viewpoint because we are coming at this subject from 2 very different positions.
Relapse wrote:
The question in my mind is if the cop actually tried to do something to stop any of this, because the story doesn't make it seem that way.
Exactly, I wonder what else will be revealed about this incident, as time goes by.
Relapse wrote: @Avatar, if I were sitting in a vehicle with my wife and kids, surrounded by bikers who were beating it with helmets and spiking the tires as the police say was happening, I would be riding over people also to get my family out of there.
You might not have caught the story, but there was an undercover cop riding with the bikers that witnessed the incident.
And if I was driving that vehicle, It, myself and the passengers would never have been put into that position. This is because I would have treated the bike the same way as if it had been a tractor trailer. As soon as he got close beside me I would have slowed my vehicle down to give way.
You see, I'm old enough to not want the drama or need to seek out highly dramatic situations. Just look at how many in this thread are enjoying the fantasy of being the guy who mows down the bikes as opposed to those who are trying to use this as a learning moment of how to avoid such a situation.
From the SUV point of view-Where you are fantasizing about how you would mow the motorcyclists down, I'm looking at how they could have avoided the wreck and subsequent situation entirely.
Not really fantasizing since what happened is a tragedy all around, but from what the video shows and what is coming out, presumably from the undercover cop, the bikers had the SUV boxed in and decided to play donkey-cave games that led to the accident.
Relapse wrote: Now it turns out there was an undercover cop at the scene that didn't do jack crap to stop the situation. You'd think he could have at least called in more cops. Gotta love New York.
This story here is about as good an argument for owning a gun as ever I saw. Sorry to mention guns here, but it stems from a cop being on the scene with the bikers and it proves Ouze's point about cops not having to intervene:
Not quite, the debate is a bit more broad and varied than this and you are placing a restriction that automatically dismisses my point that the entire incident was one bad decision compounded by a next one over and over.
Yes, I am, as I view your position as an outlier. This shouldn't surprise you as that is how you characterized it; intentionally or otherwise.
You are conflating a mixture of evidence & conjecture with proof. Proof is, in and of itself absolute. That is why it is proof.
Anything which can be used to establish the veracity of a claim can be correctly described by the word "proof". This is because the meaning of the word encompasses that usage.
And if I was driving that vehicle, It, myself and the passengers would never have been put into that position. This is because I would have treated the bike the same way as if it had been a tractor trailer. As soon as he got close beside me I would have slowed my vehicle down to give way.
You see, I'm old enough to not want the drama or need to seek out highly dramatic situations. Just look at how many in this thread are enjoying the fantasy of being the guy who mows down the bikes as opposed to those who are trying to use this as a learning moment of how to avoid such a situation.
From the SUV point of view-Where you are fantasizing about how you would mow the motorcyclists down, I'm looking at how they could have avoided the wreck and subsequent situation entirely.
Not trying to be overly critical, just trying to illustrate the difference in our viewpoint because we are coming at this subject from 2 very different positions.
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This is my thought. I'm honestly amazed at how many of you are so unabashedly supporting the SUV driver. Maybe I need to watch the video a 5th time, but the dude in the SUV made a pretty disingenuous attempt to stop. It's hard to tell what happened directly after he hit the driver that brake checked him (which, while inconsiderate and reckless, isn't as far as I know illegal), but what is clear is that there's absolutely no justification for peeling out and running people over indiscriminately. In accident situation, I've found that most often being an adult and being apologetic often can diffuse the situation. Which is like, the absolute opposite of running people over.
And if I was driving that vehicle, It, myself and the passengers would never have been put into that position. This is because I would have treated the bike the same way as if it had been a tractor trailer. As soon as he got close beside me I would have slowed my vehicle down to give way.
You see, I'm old enough to not want the drama or need to seek out highly dramatic situations. Just look at how many in this thread are enjoying the fantasy of being the guy who mows down the bikes as opposed to those who are trying to use this as a learning moment of how to avoid such a situation.
From the SUV point of view-Where you are fantasizing about how you would mow the motorcyclists down, I'm looking at how they could have avoided the wreck and subsequent situation entirely.
Not trying to be overly critical, just trying to illustrate the difference in our viewpoint because we are coming at this subject from 2 very different positions.
.
This is my thought. I'm honestly amazed at how many of you are so unabashedly supporting the SUV driver. Maybe I need to watch the video a 5th time, but the dude in the SUV made a pretty disingenuous attempt to stop. It's hard to tell what happened directly after he hit the driver that brake checked him (which, while inconsiderate and reckless, isn't as far as I know illegal), but what is clear is that there's absolutely no justification for peeling out and running people over indiscriminately. In accident situation, I've found that most often being an adult and being apologetic often can diffuse the situation. Which is like, the absolute opposite of running people over.
It appears that several undercover cops were present that tip the evidence in the SUV driver's favor along with the videos the bikers posted showing them boxing in the vehicle prior to the initial accident.
I have no prejudice against bikers, I ride myself, not enough to call myself a biker, well not around the actual bikers I know. Most people including bikers can not understand what these bikers were doing. The SUV is just driving on the freeway when a pack of motorcycles aggressively surrounds it. Like some kind of vanguard they fly up in front of this huge pack of motorcycles and begin to intimidate the driver, forcing him to slow down as more of the pack surrounds him. The way they surround the diver can't be called anything less than intimidation, there is plenty of room on that freeway and yet they choose to surround his SUV closing in on all sides by only a few inches really.
The one biker clearly pulls up and looks into the side window at the driver before deciding to pull up in front of him and aggressively decelerate into the car. No one expect someone to decelerate into your vehicle on a clear road. There was absolutely NO REASON for the biker to do that. To make his actions worse, he does not brake check, he just downshifts as you can see the brake lights did not illuminate.This action should be seen as assault with a deadly weapon and basically sets the tone for the rest of the encounter.
It would be one thing if this was a simple accident and the SUV driver got scared for no reason during the stop. What happened is the SUV was Assaulted with a deadly weapon by an individual that was a member of a large cohesive group. From that point of view I can see him being scared, its completely justifiable. Its not prejudice.
Now compound that with what we know of this group from all the other videos, and I think we can see the SUV driver probably made the right call. This is a group of illegal, rebel and aggressive motorcyclists. As a group they condone breaking the law, they hide their license plates, and we have seen them assault more than one vehicle.
You don't want to get hit by cars, don't mess with them. Don't try to intimidate other motorists, and its probably a good idea not to stand in front of a car that your buddies are trying to intimidate. I don't hate bikers, I hate ass-hats! Especially ones that think they are allowed to do whatever they want and then scream victim when someone decides to not be a sheep around them.
Maybe Jay didn't deserve to get his life destroyed over it, but its not the SUV drivers fault. If Jay and his family are going to sue anyone they should sue the genius that thought it would be fun to play chicken with the SUV driver.
One biker called for cool heads to prevail.
"We are not here to blame anyone, we are not here to point any fingers," Albert Elkerson said. "The true question is how could we have avoided what happened last Sunday, and what can we do to prevent that."
They could prevent it by not being a bunch of douche bags. The police need to go through those videos carefully and revoke any legal licenses that exist, fine and sentence them for all laws broken and confiscate their bikes as criminal tools.
Seeing as some of these bikers have been driving illegally for decades and have accumulated quite a bit of tickets, the SUV driver could sue the police for not impounding these drivers when they have been pulled over in the past.
His record is indicative of the felonious actions he was capable of. That said, if a group was threatening me or my family, and attempted to box me in (a known MO of car jackers) I would run them over without hesitation or malice. If they attempted to enter my vehicle and or pull me or my family out of the vehicle, I would shoot them, again without hesitation or malice.
Its simple really.
My families life or theirs. Those with the ability do, those without cower.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
hotsauceman1 wrote: I do feel sorry for the guy ran over. Parylyzed like that is not a fate I would wish on anyone
d-usa wrote: I'm understanding of an undercover cop not doing anything.
Depending in what he was undercover for, he could have been both endangering himself and ruined an ongoing investigation.
One guy getting assaulted might actually be pretty small fish compared to what he was undercover for.
Possibly. But in a city like NY that has removed the individuals right to self protection, an officer NOT intervening is a disgrace.
Now, what people dont appreciate is that the Supreme Court has ruled numerous times that the police are under NO obligation to provide protection or intervene. They are there merely to serve and enforce the law and protect the government machinery.
"We are not here to blame anyone, we are not here to point any fingers," Albert Elkerson said. "The true question is how could we have avoided what happened last Sunday, and what can we do to prevent that."
They could prevent it by not being a bunch of douche bags. The police need to go through those videos carefully and revoke any legal licenses that exist, fine and sentence them for all laws broken and confiscate their bikes as criminal tools.
Seeing as some of these bikers have been driving illegally for decades and have accumulated quite a bit of tickets, the SUV driver could sue the police for not impounding these drivers when they have been pulled over in the past.
They could also act, ya know, as a REAL Motorcycle Club....
Where was the SUV supposed to back off to given that the vehicle (as can be seen in the video around the 25s mark) was surrounded?
There was no room to back off to and then what happens?
The rider's bike get's tapped and both he and the SUV stop. The creepy part is that the whole pack stops too, completely surrounding the family.
You'd have to be incredibly naive not to consider yourself in extreme danger. It's not being an internet tough guy to say that if you are surrounded by a group of people who are intimidating you, you have a right to break out instead of becoming a victim.
I note that none of those riders considered leaving one lane clear for other motorists to get past, despite there being three lanes.
cadbren wrote: Where was the SUV supposed to back off to given that the vehicle (as can be seen in the video around the 25s mark) was surrounded?
There was no room to back off to and then what happens?
The rider's bike get's tapped and both he and the SUV stop. The creepy part is that the whole pack stops too, completely surrounding the family.
You'd have to be incredibly naive not to consider yourself in extreme danger. It's not being an internet tough guy to say that if you are surrounded by a group of people who are intimidating you, you have a right to break out instead of becoming a victim.
I note that none of those riders considered leaving one lane clear for other motorists to get past, despite there being three lanes.
1) The "point is" that the SUV driver did have time to react. Motorist have a duty to avoid an accident if they can. The SUV driver had, from time stamp 21 when the biker is in his lane and at the front fender to time stamp 26 to hit his brakes. He didn't until time stamp 27 when he was inches from the bike. If he had taken proper evasive action in those 5 usable seconds, the entire incident would have been avoided.
You say that the biker was being a bully, the same could be said for the SUV. He failed to give way to the bike. If it had been a large tractor truck pulling around and cutting in close, do you think he would have made the same choice to stay right on the trucks ass? ....This is the crux of the problem that I see in this video.
While you have made several good points, you also make one big assumption. Did the SUV actually have room to back off? From the video there appears to be a red bike just off his rear corner just before the collision, where did that go?
Neither you, nor I, can answer that question, we don't actually know what was behind him, so you can't authoritively say that he had room to back off. Until evidence is produced as to that then we can only go by what can be seen and that appears to be that the biker is the instigator of the accident.
I note that none of those riders considered leaving one lane clear for other motorists to get past, despite there being three lanes.
Actually, the law here in the States is that a large group of motorcycles, such as a club ride, must ONLY take up one lane, they cannot use more than that, or "take over" the road, as these knuckleheads were doing.
I read that this group has done crap like this before. I've been riding half my life and my group and I all agree. The riders in the video were just wrong. Maybe they will reconsider next time they decide to act like idiots.
The video isn't that clear if the SUV driver could have avoided it. But the gangs actions were at best intimidating and I can't blame the driver for gunning it.
Hope the next time that idiot decides to be a douche bag they have wheelchair access for him.
Shouldn't it be swoop and poop? If you poop before you swoop, then you have relieved oneself of the poop before swooping over those you wish to deposit said poop on, no?
filbert wrote: Shouldn't it be swoop and poop? If you poop before you swoop, then you have relieved oneself of the poop before swooping over those you wish to deposit said poop on, no?
I know it's popularly "swoop and poop", but that kind of implies you pop in, poop, and then hang around. The way we've always used is is when someone pops in, drops a turd, and disappears, right?
I think I'm going to start using "poop 'n scoot" instead. It just makes more sense.
edit: Or maybe I misunderstand what swoop n poop means. Totally possible, even likely. v
The 28-year-old biker accused of starting a bloody encounter between a group of bikers and an SUV driver on a New York highway says he does not feel responsible for the attack.
Christopher Cruz, a car wash worker, was captured on tape cutting off a Range Rover driven by Alexian Lien on the West Side Highway in Manhattan last month. Lien, driving with his wife and 2-year-old in the car, was eventually pulled out of his car and beaten by other motorcyclists traveling with Cruz, police said.
"I never had intentions to slow him down or cause any type of problems," Cruz told ABC News' Dan Harris in his first sit-down interview. "I don't think I feel responsible."
Cruz, a father of two, has been charged with reckless endangerment and unlawful imprisonment for his role in the incident. The charges could land him up to one year in prison.
Police Release Photo of Person of Interest in Alleged SUV Driver Beating
"It has turned my life upside down," Cruz said, adding that he is worried about what could happen to him and doesn't know if he can win his case.
The video police used to charge Cruz shows his motorcycle slowing in front of Lien's SUV as Lien, 33, his wife and 2-year-old drove down the highway on their way to a wedding anniversary celebration around 2 p.m., Sunday, Sept. 29. Lien's SUV was quickly surrounded by the motorcyclists, who were doing an annual ride through the city, police said.
Undercover NYPD Cop Watched SUV Driver Get Beaten
The group of motorcyclists then slowed down further and surrounded the SUV, causing Lien to accelerate away from the group.
In the video Cruz is seen next to the SUV and appears to be exchanging glances with the driver before pulling his bike out in front.
"I was trying to get his attention to make sure he sees me before I pulled in front of him," Cruz said. "He never looked back at me."
The video then shows Cruz crossing into the middle lane, looking back over both shoulders and then slowing down, resulting in the collision with Lien's SUV.
"[It was] never my intention to make him stop," Cruz said. "I didn't think I was doing anything wrong with just turning into another lane. The other bikes are going as slow as I am."
"I was looking over my shoulder to see where my friends were," he said. "I wanted them to pull in front so I could follow them. I didn't brake but when I looked over my shoulder, my hand came off the throttle a little, but the driver didn't slow down at all and bumped me."
Cruz told ABC News' Harris that both he and Lien stopped and he approached Lien for an explanation.
"He looked straight ahead and never made eye contact with me," Cruz said. "So I just went back to my bike and when I was getting on he took off."
Lien's wife, Rosalyn Ng, said that her husband feared for their lives when he decided to take off to get away from the group. As he sped off, Lien hit some of the motorcyclists, critically injuring one, authorities said.
Other motorcyclists chased Lien's SUV and then bashed in his windows, pulled him out of the car, and beat him, police said.
Lien required stitches in his face for injuries sustained in the attack. He has not been charged with any crime.
"I do feel badly for the family that got hurt," said Cruz, who suffered minor injuries in the crash and whose bike was damaged.
Two off-duty New York police officers were riding with the biker group and the NYPD is investigating why the cops apparently did not intervene, authorities said.
In addition to Cruz, two other men have been charged in the attack.
Robert Sims, 35, who allegedly grabbed the SUV's door about five minutes into the video, turned himself in to police Friday in Brooklyn, NYPD officials said.
He faces charges of gang assault, assault and criminal possession of a weapon, according to police.
Sims was arrested in 1998 for possession of a loaded firearm and a samurai sword, and he served eight months in jail, police said.
Reginald Chance, 38, of Brooklyn, also surrendered to police late Friday. He allegedly was the man seen on video using his helmet to smash the driver's side window of the Range Rover before the video cut off and the alleged assault took place.
Chance appeared in court on Sunday and raised both middle fingers to cameras and others inside the courtroom as he was arraigned.
Cruz told ABC News he does not know Chance or Sims, the two individuals charged with attacking Lien, and was not at all involved in the ensuing chase.
Cruz's attorney believes his client was arrested because of the furor of media attention surrounding the incident.
"I think that they needed to make an arrest to satisfy the public," the attorney, H. Benjamin Perez, told ABC News. "He didn't brake. The video shows that," Perez said. "He was not trying to entrap Mr. Lien and go up against an almost four-ton vehicle while he was on two wheels."
ABC News' Alexis Shaw, Linzie Janis, Aaron Katersky and Josh Margolin contributed to this report.
