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I mean it is completely possible, however unlikely that Jay Meezee was just trying to help the guy who got hit, we can't really see what is happening at that part of the video. I think at that point you still have to hold the mob legally responsible for what happened to him.

I want to see this lawyer try to turn this into another Zimmerman case.

The real tragedy of this story is that he missed the other 29.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 pities2004 wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
My dad was a hells Angel. If there are one group of people you do not mess with it is bikers. I heard some stories of a man being killed with a Pool Cue.

The SUV wasn't purposely trying to hurt the biker, he stopped and normally when not swarmed by a bunch of men who should know better, he would of called 9-11 helped the biker and the normal traffic scene would ensue. However in this scenario the biker GANG yes GANG, assaulted the SUV so when the SUV driver tried to PROTECT his family they followed him and nearly beat him to death. Yes crap happens and he had to run over three bikers, but wouldn't you if you were in the scenario? If he had a sidearm he would of pumped holes in those bikers and the situation would of gotten worse.

This. Bikers are doing this in NY because people are defenseless. Here in PA, we don't have biker gangs. We carry guns, and if people punch our cars and threaten our families, we fething shoot them in the face while their friends watch.

It takes a lot for me to side with the driver of an SUV, especially a Range Rover, but this'll do it.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
This. Bikers are doing this in NY because people are defenseless. Here in PA, we don't have biker gangs. We carry guns

You sure about that, chief?

Truly, guns in the hands of private citizens have eliminated all crime in this 2nd amendment utopia! What can't they fix?

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


This. Bikers are doing this in NY because people are defenseless. Here in PA, we don't have biker gangs. We carry guns, and if people punch our cars and threaten our families, we fething shoot them in the face while their friends watch.

Here in the area of TN that I live in, we have a gakload of biker gangs, but "luckily" for us, they all seem to know each other, and only mess with each other, not other random motorists/neighbors.


First thing I said to myself after watching this was, "and bikers wonder why they are so hated?" and "this is why we cant have nice things".. followed by (when the SUV left the highway) "what an idiot!"

Hopefully they throw the book at the bikers (the whole lot of them), and hopefully some good comes to the SUV, as I honestly believe that he did nothing wrong in that situation, seems fairly clear in the video, even with the editing treatment it was given, that the motorcyclists started the whole thing.

 Ouze wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
This. Bikers are doing this in NY because people are defenseless. Here in PA, we don't have biker gangs. We carry guns

You sure about that, chief?

Truly, guns in the hands of private citizens have eliminated all crime in this 2nd amendment utopia! What can't they fix?

Definitely not in the numbers that exist in NY, and they don't often pull similar stunts. Also, lose the attitude and reevaluate your manhood. A man who is afraid of guns won't have the tools needed to protect his family.

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


This. Bikers are doing this in NY because people are defenseless. Here in PA, we don't have biker gangs. We carry guns, and if people punch our cars and threaten our families, we fething shoot them in the face while their friends watch.

Here in the area of TN that I live in, we have a gakload of biker gangs, but "luckily" for us, they all seem to know each other, and only mess with each other, not other random motorists/neighbors.


First thing I said to myself after watching this was, "and bikers wonder why they are so hated?" and "this is why we cant have nice things".. followed by (when the SUV left the highway) "what an idiot!"

Hopefully they throw the book at the bikers (the whole lot of them), and hopefully some good comes to the SUV, as I honestly believe that he did nothing wrong in that situation, seems fairly clear in the video, even with the editing treatment it was given, that the motorcyclists started the whole thing.

I say we throw and actual book at them, Like a hardback steven king novel

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Definitely not in the numbers that exist in NY, and they don't often pull similar stunts. Also, lose the attitude and reevaluate your manhood. A man who is afraid of guns won't have the tools needed to protect his family.

1.) You're moving the goalposts
2.) The personal attack isn't necessary, and it's also wrong

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
Also, lose the attitude and reevaluate your manhood.

I pulled down my pants, and it seemed just fine.

Levity aside, I know my friends that have had guns pointed at them have been afraid of them (as I would be). But I am curious as to how you might compare motorcycle gangs in NY and PA, such that PA has fewer.






(Many edits: my own stupidity)

Cities naturally attract more gangs

SUV guy is lucky it was just a bunch of wimps on crotch rockets. Angels, Pagans or one of the other big 1%er groups? That would have ended poorly. They don't usually pull gak like that though. They have bigger fish to fry then a candy donkey in a cage.

I don't think SUV should be criminally liable. Civil liability for the paralyzing of that one biker? Eh we'll see. I don't have an opinion either way.

 Alfndrate wrote:
I laughed when the SUV tore out of there. I'm a terrible person, but when the video showed the biker stopping as he did to get hit by the SUV, I had no sympathy.

Yeah, I laughed too although I shouldn't.

You know at first I thought the facebook page was funny. Now I just find it digusting. Ireally wish they would take it down. Yeah these guys were idiots and asking for it, but the amount of hate on that page for a guy that is in a coma is just crazy. I just imagine him waking up, not knowing what he did and seeing that page.

Sad thing is his page has more likes that the SUV driver.

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:
A man who is afraid of guns won't have the tools needed to protect his family.

Walking, talking parody.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

 NuggzTheNinja wrote:


This. Bikers are doing this in NY because people are defenseless. Here in PA, we don't have biker gangs. We carry guns, and if people punch our cars and threaten our families, we fething shoot them in the face while their friends watch.

Here in the area of TN that I live in, we have a gakload of biker gangs, but "luckily" for us, they all seem to know each other, and only mess with each other, not other random motorists/neighbors.


First thing I said to myself after watching this was, "and bikers wonder why they are so hated?" and "this is why we cant have nice things".. followed by (when the SUV left the highway) "what an idiot!"

Hopefully they throw the book at the bikers (the whole lot of them), and hopefully some good comes to the SUV, as I honestly believe that he did nothing wrong in that situation, seems fairly clear in the video, even with the editing treatment it was given, that the motorcyclists started the whole thing.

I say we throw and actual book at them, Like a hardback steven king novel

In honor of Tom Clancy, a box with all his novels in it.

When I first saw this, it reminded me of the original Mad Max movie.

From what I've seen of the video, not sure if if I would have done anything different than this driver.

GG

Am I correct to understand that the family of the paralyzed man who has not been charged with any crimes has hired two prominent civil rights attorneys?

Doesn't bode well.

 sebster wrote:
It takes a lot for me to side with the driver of an SUV, especially a Range Rover, but this'll do it.

This.

This thread truly saddens me. Almost every poster here has blindly bought into the anti-
motorcyclist bias of the media.
You guys ignore the actual visual evidence in favor of the media's one-sided audio and written
"Story".
Seriously, watch the video in chronological order without the media commentary and you see a
case of either neglegent or aggressive driving on the part of the SUV driver after the motorcyclist
made an admittedly sketchy pass.
Thing is, the sketchy pass does not absolve the SUV driver of his responsibility to maintain a safe distance.
The SUV driver did not back off in the 3-4 seconds before the motorcyclist turned to his griend and rolled off the throttle (note rolled off the throttl, NOT hit his brakes)
After he rolled off the throttle, the SUV driver had plenty of time to hit his brakes, yet did not until he was a few inches from contact.

Poiñt I'm making is that anything that followed does not absolve the SUV from hitting another vehicle from behind.


Now, about the "bikers" surrounding the SUV and "supposedly" hitting the vehicle and slashing the tires. The video of him gunning through the bikes does not show a crowd assaulting nor do you see flat tires.

Also note that the rider hit was supposedly still under the vehicle and was further injured when the SUV driver plowed away.
Could it be that his friends stopped to try and help thier seriously hurt comrade. Now I admit that this last is speculation, but it is logical spéculation that better matches the video and makes more sense than the
drivers story.

Honestly, I wonder if there is a racial or eletism element that explains the SUV drivers panic better than the "bikers jumped me just because" story.


I am also curious as to what happened just before the pass and subsequent wreck.
The rider gave the SUV driver the same look that I giv e texting drivers that pull into my lane while I'm beside them on my bike.

Finally, while I truly believe the SUV driver to be at fault for the wreck, the motorcyclists should have
called the cops and at most, follow the SUV until the cops could detain him for the hit & run.
They were wrong to bash in the window and for assaulting him....even though he had just committed vehicular assault.

As a last bit, I want to note that I don't like defending these crash test dummies. They make life a lot harder for the majority of motorcyclists who are safe and respectful of both the law and other drivers.
You want to do stunts and pop wheelies....rent a parking lot, take a stunt class or find a race track that will let you do such on a track day. Just keep that stupid gak off of the public roads.
later

 Alfndrate wrote:
I laughed when the SUV tore out of there. I'm a terrible person, but when the video showed the biker stopping as he did to get hit by the SUV, I had no sympathy.

Pretty much. Brake checking the SUV (transmission braking so no brake light), and looking over your shoulder while doing it, doesn't scream innocent to me. Nor does the fact that the bikers pulled all videos and photos of their stunts off their site. I'm glad that the guy who did the brake check that all this escalated from has been charged by the Police with reckless driving. The bike gang caused this incident, and then escalated it to the point where the family in the SUV feared for their lives and had to try and escape after having their tires slashed and windows broken.

My sympathy lies with those in the SUV.

 filbert wrote:
Gouranga!

Have an exalt

 Captain Avatar wrote:

Thing is, the sketchy pass does not absolve the SUV driver of his responsibility to maintain a safe distance.
The SUV driver did not back off in the 3-4 seconds before the motorcyclist turned to his griend and rolled off the throttle (note rolled off the throttl, NOT hit his brakes)
After he rolled off the throttle, the SUV driver had plenty of time to hit his brakes, yet did not until he was a few inches from contact.

I'm the last person to come in defense of an SUV driver. I drive a car, and every accident I've been in (none of which I was at-fault for) have been due to careless SUV drivers. I'm also the last person to start talking in defense of the law, but here, have a read:
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Rights/State-Laws.aspx?stateid=32

Now, let's play "spot the problems".

Motorcycles in one lane more than two abreast? Yes.

Lane splitting with the SUV? Yes.

(not to mention the illegal rally to begin with)

That's reckless.

Now watch the video again. Note 0:23. He's about 4-5 feet in front of the SUV, having just cut IN HIS LANE, looking behind him the while. He knows how close that SUV is. Now note 0:24-0:26. Note the relative speed of the other motorcyclists. Note that he's looking behind him AS he cuts off the gas. Remember that I said just a second ago is when he completely cut the SUV off. SUV guy probably could have hit the break in the one second before the bike in front of him suddenly slowed down without break light if he was fully alert and reacting to the situation. Remember that the biker himself wasn't watching where he was going for two seconds. Now consider that he was watching the SUV gaining on him.

Maybe the guy was texting. Maybe the guy was screaming at his kid. Maybe the guy was watching all the other bikes around him to make sure someone else isn't about to pull that exact stunt. I can't say. I wasn't there. You know who does know what happened? The biker who was watching the SUV slam into him while he deliberately cut the gas.

Poiñt I'm making is that anything that followed does not absolve the SUV from hitting another vehicle from behind.


Now, about the "bikers" surrounding the SUV and "supposedly" hitting the vehicle and slashing the tires. The video of him gunning through the bikes does not show a crowd assaulting nor do you see flat tires.

I'm surprised you can see them that well, all I can see is the heads of the bikers behind the other ones. I can't really make out what's happening around the SUV.

Also note that the rider hit was supposedly still under the vehicle and was further injured when the SUV driver plowed away.
Could it be that his friends stopped to try and help thier seriously hurt comrade. Now I admit that this last is speculation, but it is logical spéculation that better matches the video and makes more sense than the
drivers story.

Honestly, I wonder if there is a racial or eletism element that explains the SUV drivers panic better than the "bikers jumped me just because" story.

There's that word again! Why, maybe he was feeling entitled too! Perhaps you are biased?

I am also curious as to what happened just before the pass and subsequent wreck.
The rider gave the SUV driver the same look that I giv e texting drivers that pull into my lane while I'm beside them on my bike.

Ah, but do you give them that look while you're driving 5 feet in front of them having just driven into their lane and cut them off? If so, you either have eyes in the back of your helmet, or you're not looking where you're going, just as liable to do the exact same thing the SUV did.

Finally, while I truly believe the SUV driver to be at fault for the wreck, the motorcyclists should have
called the cops and at most, follow the SUV until the cops could detain him for the hit & run.
They were wrong to bash in the window and for assaulting him....even though he had just committed vehicular assault.

As a last bit, I want to note that I don't like defending these crash test dummies. They make life a lot harder for the majority of motorcyclists who are safe and respectful of both the law and other drivers.
You want to do stunts and pop wheelies....rent a parking lot, take a stunt class or find a race track that will let you do such on a track day. Just keep that stupid gak off of the public roads.
later

That much I can agree with.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
Holy gak, did I just blame the victim?

 daedalus wrote:

I'm the last person to come in defense of an SUV driver. I drive a car, and every accident I've been in (none of which I was at-fault for) have been due to careless SUV drivers. I'm also the last person to start talking in defense of the law, but here, have a read:
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Rights/State-Laws.aspx?stateid=32

I drive a 1-ton truck and unlike the majority posting in this thread I also ride a motorcycle. Have over a 100,000 miles of two wheeling under my butt and as such have a bit of perspective that the "Its ok to just mow motorcyclist over cause I'm an Interwebs tough guys" do not have.

As to your reference to the law, while it mentions some of the things you mention below, there is nothing in the link that absolves the SUV driver from his responsibility to immediately back off from the person who just pulled in front of him. Doesn't matter whether the pass was safe or not, He(The SUV driver) had a duty to maintain a safe following distance from the vehicle in front of him. As soon as the bike pulled in he was supposed to fall back to the suggested 2 second following distance. The SUV Driver failed to do this and is thus at fault for rear ending the vehicle in front of him.

Daedalus wrote:
Now, let's play "spot the problems".

Motorcycles in one lane more than two abreast? Yes.

Lane splitting with the SUV? Yes.

(not to mention the illegal rally to begin with)

That's reckless.

OK, I'll Play.

1)Motorcycles 2 abreast? Not illegal in all states and allowed while bikes swap off lead positions

2)Lane splitting? Agreed, Yes. Though not an excuse for the SUV Drivers failure to subsequently maintain proper following distance or for hitting the guy in front. Also, Lane splitting is not illegal in all states and is legal in the majority of other nations. Basically, it is a common practice. Not making an excuse or stating whether I agree with the practice,...just it is what it is.

3) Illegal Rally??? The constitutionalist in me wants to argue the right to assemble but that is for another thread. .....*Also, very difficult to argue the point when concerning a group that had more than its share of ass-hat riders.

4)You are distracting from the "real" problems with the above minutia. The real problem was the to common problem of drivers not wanting to yield or back off from a vehicle that just pulled in front of them. This failure to yield leads to the dangerous and all to common practice up on the east coast of tailgating.

Daedalus wrote:
Now watch the video again. Note 0:23. He's about 4-5 feet in front of the SUV, having just cut IN HIS LANE, looking behind him the while. He knows how close that SUV is. Now note 0:24-0:26. Note the relative speed of the other motorcyclists. Note that he's looking behind him AS he cuts off the gas. Remember that I said just a second ago is when he completely cut the SUV off. SUV guy probably could have hit the break in the one second before the bike in front of him suddenly slowed down without break light if he was fully alert and reacting to the situation. Remember that the biker himself wasn't watching where he was going for two seconds. Now consider that he was watching the SUV gaining on him.

Maybe the guy was texting. Maybe the guy was screaming at his kid. Maybe the guy was watching all the other bikes around him to make sure someone else isn't about to pull that exact stunt. I can't say. I wasn't there. You know who does know what happened? The biker who was watching the SUV slam into him while he deliberately cut the gas.

I'd just like to point out that you are making the assumption that the rider is watching the SUV. Sure it looks like that "could" be the case but consider this.
1)The rider pulled in front, then looked over his right shoulder to check how much distance he had.
2)The rider then looks ahead for a couple of seconds.
3)The SUV never backs off to a safe distance.
4)The rider then looks over his left shoulder...but at what? a)His face shield is tinted so you can't see his eyes. b) To me he is looking at the rider with the helmet cam until the last second when the SUV gets to close.

Now I freely admit that the motorcyclist in question that got hit was being a complete dumb-ass......but that is why we have laws that by default place the blame on the driver who hits the other from the rear. We are supposed to watch out and avoid the dumb-asses, not join in with their ass-hattery.

Daedalus wrote:

Captain Avatar wrote:
Now, about the "bikers" surrounding the SUV and "supposedly" hitting the vehicle and slashing the tires. The video of him gunning through the bikes does not show a crowd assaulting nor do you see flat tires.

I'm surprised you can see them that well, all I can see is the heads of the bikers behind the other ones. I can't really make out what's happening around the SUV.

If you can't see then do a timer count. The occupants of the SUV claim a lot of activity for 19-24 seconds. Check the time from the hit at 27 seconds, the bikes stopped at about 31-32 seconds and him gunning the vehicle away at 51 seconds.
Sure people were rushing at the vehicle, they had a fellow biker trapped under it.

Just by time alone there is not enough time for what the SUV occupants claim to have happened and real time elapsed. The riders were still trying to get to their friend when he took off(thus hitting the downed rider again by the accounts given so far.

Daedalus wrote:
There's that word again! Why, maybe he was feeling entitled too! Perhaps you are biased?

Perhaps, perhaps not. Please to note that I said that "I wonder" if such was a factor. Not the same as an accusation. It was merely a question as to possible motives for actions that do not make sense with the story and facts presented.

Daedalus wrote:

Captain Avatar wrote:
I am also curious as to what happened just before the pass and subsequent wreck.
The rider gave the SUV driver the same look that I give texting drivers that pull into my lane while I'm beside them on my bike.

Ah, but do you give them that look while you're driving 5 feet in front of them having just driven into their lane and cut them off? If so, you either have eyes in the back of your helmet, or you're not looking where you're going, just as liable to do the exact same thing the SUV did.

I was referring to the look the rider gave the driver while beside the vehicle.
To explain:
Last month a lady in a Jeep Grand Cherokee was in the lane next to me. I was parallel to her driver side window and was able to see here texting as she pulled into my lane. I was right beside her, there was no looking or turn signal. Just her flipping me the bird for honking my horn while diving into the break down lane to avoid being hit.

I'm not saying that the SUV driver was doing the same, just that many other such prior experiences have shown me that such can happen and that I now have a prejudice against Texting drivers.


Again, please to note that I absolutely agree that there were some idiots in the motorcycle group that was involved.
Also note that not all or even most of the group in question were idiots. Out of a large undisciplined group there were only a few that were involved in the assault on the SUV driver.

I agree with Captain Avatar that it might be a little too early to form an opinion one way or the other. I've seen an awful lot of news stories with provocative video like this that later turned out to be missing a lot of context from what happened before, what you can't see, etc. I mean, nothing wrong with saying, from what I can see here, I think SUV guy was in the right; but I think it would be prudent to remain open minded to more facts coming out in the days to come. Reporting really is terrible these days.

I'm sorry Captain Avatar, but the bikers were trying to bully the RR.

The bike brake checked the RR. Whatever he was trying to do the biker did not make a "scetcy pass". He was trying to bully and intimidate the car. Thie biker looks over his sholder to see how close he is to the car. He got it wrong and got hit.

I am most defiantly not "anti bike". I ride myself, have done for the past 10 years, commuting 50 miles a day in all weathers. My wife dose too. I have seen all sorts of stupidity on the road and brake checking a 3 ton car is high on the list of dumbest things. If he was tale gateing the thing to do on a bike is not brake, it is to accelerate and pull out a gap.

The biker was in the wrong.

Want to disagree, talk to these guys:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=74&t=1336164&mid=219972&nmt=300+v+1+Range+Rover+Sport

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1335771&nmt=

The bike forum I am involved in. They agree that the bikers were at fault. So dose every other bike forum I have seen it posted on.

http://www.therevcounter.co.uk/uk-motorbike-forum/91863-bikers-run-over-range-rover.html

http://www.themotorbikeforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49738

Etc..

The genral view is that the RR could have handled it better, but there is zero sympathy for the bikes.

I happen to agree that the biker was at fault. I have been on two wheels for over 25 years. My current ride is an 08 Ultra Classic (geezer glide) as well as a driver of SUV's. In said video if you look at the position of the bike at second 19 or so the biker is crossing the lane BESIDE the SUV ... not in front but beside of him ... in the SUV lane. This is a sign of stupidity that is to come.

Saying that the SUV failed to maintain an assured cleared distance is a moot point. The biker has an obligation to do the same as well, and in this case ... epic fail. Call me hateful or whatever but I can assure you of this if these morons had put my wife's life in danger like they did with Lien's, let alone his daughter ( I have no kids to compare this to ) I can assure you the headline would have read something like this :


Man in an angry red Jeep Wrangler plays Bump and Jump on highway, 42 bikes destroyed!

Quote from man: After the first guy wanted to put my wife in harms way by his idiocy and then his buddies wanted to hurt myself and my wife I thought it was the only responsible thing to do to get out of there, 63 bikes were in my way and 42 of them were to stupid to realize that my tires would not be stopped by a crotch rocket.

To be fair an Electra Glide is really a 2 wheeled car rather than a bike

(In seriousness I don't get this crotch rocket/chrome polisher nonsense. When I get the money I want to get an R1 and a triumph thunderbird)

I will grant that ... It is like riding my Lazy Boy down the highway!

These little toughguys want to be all badassed and tough on the road but yet they will not be man enough to step forward and say 'That was me that done that' when it comes down to it.

Steve steveson wrote:I'm sorry Captain Avatar, but the bikers were trying to bully the RR.

The bike brake checked the RR. Whatever he was trying to do the biker did not make a "scetcy pass". He was trying to bully and intimidate the car. Thie biker looks over his sholder to see how close he is to the car. He got it wrong and got hit.

I am most defiantly not "anti bike". I ride myself, have done for the past 10 years, commuting 50 miles a day in all weathers. My wife dose too. I have seen all sorts of stupidity on the road and brake checking a 3 ton car is high on the list of dumbest things. If he was tale gateing the thing to do on a bike is not brake, it is to accelerate and pull out a gap.

The biker was in the wrong.

Want to disagree, talk to these guys:

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=74&t=1336164&mid=219972&nmt=300+v+1+Range+Rover+Sport

http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=23&t=1335771&nmt=

The bike forum I am involved in. They agree that the bikers were at fault. So dose every other bike forum I have seen it posted on.

http://www.therevcounter.co.uk/uk-motorbike-forum/91863-bikers-run-over-range-rover.html

http://www.themotorbikeforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=49738

Etc..

The genral view is that the RR could have handled it better, but there is zero sympathy for the bikes.

You and the forums you posted are in error. Not for blaming the rider, I have never tried to deny his level of responsibility.
Where you guys are wrong is your rush to absolve the SUV driver of his responsibility.

You claim the rider was bullying the SUV but you have no proof other than conjecture as to what you think the rider is doing and a very slanted/sensationalized story.
I'm arguing basic fundaental law and rules of the road.

Again, yes the motorcyclist was riding like an idiot but it doesn't change the SUV drivers duty to back pff to a safe distance. 2 wrongs don't add up to a right (but 3 left turns do ).

Do you really want to argue that one driver being an idiot allows a second to not only do the same but to alsohit someone else and not be responsible? Especially as the SUV driver had time to back off.

For those that are having trouble following my point:
1)The rider was not riding safely or with tegard to his own well being
2)The SUV Driver failed to follow a basic rule in following distance and also failed to act when he had time to do so.
3)Niether individuals actions absolves the other of thier responsibility in the subsequent wreck
4) By the law, not media hyped emotion, the following should happen.
A) The Rider: ticketed for lane splitting, unsafe pass and possibly failure to maintain speed(depends upon the road they were on)
B) SUV driver: Ticketed for following too closely/failure to maintain safe distance then subsequently speeding and reckless driving.
Then Charged with negligence, hit & run and vehicular assault
C) Bikers that followed speeding SUV: speeding &reckless driving.
D) Bikers that attacked: assault to aggravated assault.

Again, my stance is based strictly upon the law.

OIIIIIIO wrote:I happen to agree that the biker was at fault. I have been on two wheels for over 25 years. My current ride is an 08 Ultra Classic (geezer glide) as well as a driver of SUV's. In said video if you look at the position of the bike at second 19 or so the biker is crossing the lane BESIDE the SUV ... not in front but beside of him ... in the SUV lane. This is a sign of stupidity that is to come.

Saying that the SUV failed to maintain an assured cleared distance is a moot point. The biker has an obligation to do the same as well, and in this case ... epic fail. Call me hateful or whatever but I can assure you of this if these morons had put my wife's life in danger like they did with Lien's, let alone his daughter ( I have no kids to compare this to ) I can assure you the headline would have read something like this :


Man in an angry red Jeep Wrangler plays Bump and Jump on highway, 42 bikes destroyed!

Quote from man: After the first guy wanted to put my wife in harms way by his idiocy and then his buddies wanted to hurt myself and my wife I thought it was the only responsible thing to do to get out of there, 63 bikes were in my way and 42 of them were to stupid to realize that my tires would not be stopped by a crotch rocket.

Harley rider huh? Never could get used to them.Can't stand the taste of starbucks and I like to ride every day as opposed to polishing chrome every other day. ;b Just some friendly ribbing from a bavarian bomber that rides a flying brick.

As to where we disagree. The distance issue is not moot from the standpoint of the law. Once the bike had successfully pulled in front of the suv(note-without making the SUV slow down). The SUV driver had a duty to back off. This is basic driving 101. The bike maintained speed long enought for it to be considered a pass which placed a burden upon the SUV driver to act appropriately.

Now do I like it when someone passes me just to slow down to a pace that is slower than mine? Hell no!

Does a driver doing such give me the right to hit that person without consequence? Again, Hell no!

Why is this so? Somebody being an idiot does not excuse us from our responsibilities to act appropriately.



@ all posters, I've noticed a lot of crotch rocket comments that indicate or come across as a bias against such bikes. I ask you this, "would you view the video differently if they were all riding Harlies?
Think about it, seriously.

I ask this because of a bit of irony in that Hardly Ablesome (just a joke) makes a huge profit off of selling over priced goods that convey the "outlaw biker" image that Harley gained in the 1950's-1970's.

For those of you too young to have experienced this, find an old biker and ask about things like the 1960's-1970's Hells Angel & Bandito "argument" over the I-10 corridor.

Now while I may crack rivalry based jokes at my fellow riders, the truth is that I'm glad they ride and wish more people rode. It doesn't matter what you ride, as long as you RIDE.
If we increased the US riding population from 3% to 10% the corresponding drop in driving congestion during most peoples riding seasons(I ride year round) would alleviate the majority of gridlock issues in our major cities.

If you want to ride, find your local Motorcycle Safety Foundation riders ed course, get proper safety gear and remember that riding is an assumed risk.

 Captain Avatar wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

I'm the last person to come in defense of an SUV driver. I drive a car, and every accident I've been in (none of which I was at-fault for) have been due to careless SUV drivers. I'm also the last person to start talking in defense of the law, but here, have a read:
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Rights/State-Laws.aspx?stateid=32

I drive a 1-ton truck and unlike the majority posting in this thread I also ride a motorcycle. Have over a 100,000 miles of two wheeling under my butt and as such have a bit of perspective that the "Its ok to just mow motorcyclist over cause I'm an Interwebs tough guys" do not have.

As to your reference to the law, while it mentions some of the things you mention below, there is nothing in the link that absolves the SUV driver from his responsibility to immediately back off from the person who just pulled in front of him. Doesn't matter whether the pass was safe or not, He(The SUV driver) had a duty to maintain a safe following distance from the vehicle in front of him. As soon as the bike pulled in he was supposed to fall back to the suggested 2 second following distance. The SUV Driver failed to do this and is thus at fault for rear ending the vehicle in front of him.

Daedalus wrote:
Now, let's play "spot the problems".

Motorcycles in one lane more than two abreast? Yes.

Lane splitting with the SUV? Yes.

(not to mention the illegal rally to begin with)

That's reckless.

OK, I'll Play.

1)Motorcycles 2 abreast? Not illegal in all states and allowed while bikes swap off lead positions

2)Lane splitting? Agreed, Yes. Though not an excuse for the SUV Drivers failure to subsequently maintain proper following distance or for hitting the guy in front. Also, Lane splitting is not illegal in all states and is legal in the majority of other nations. Basically, it is a common practice. Not making an excuse or stating whether I agree with the practice,...just it is what it is.

3) Illegal Rally??? The constitutionalist in me wants to argue the right to assemble but that is for another thread. .....*Also, very difficult to argue the point when concerning a group that had more than its share of ass-hat riders.

4)You are distracting from the "real" problems with the above minutia. The real problem was the to common problem of drivers not wanting to yield or back off from a vehicle that just pulled in front of them. This failure to yield leads to the dangerous and all to common practice up on the east coast of tailgating.

Daedalus wrote:
Now watch the video again. Note 0:23. He's about 4-5 feet in front of the SUV, having just cut IN HIS LANE, looking behind him the while. He knows how close that SUV is. Now note 0:24-0:26. Note the relative speed of the other motorcyclists. Note that he's looking behind him AS he cuts off the gas. Remember that I said just a second ago is when he completely cut the SUV off. SUV guy probably could have hit the break in the one second before the bike in front of him suddenly slowed down without break light if he was fully alert and reacting to the situation. Remember that the biker himself wasn't watching where he was going for two seconds. Now consider that he was watching the SUV gaining on him.

Maybe the guy was texting. Maybe the guy was screaming at his kid. Maybe the guy was watching all the other bikes around him to make sure someone else isn't about to pull that exact stunt. I can't say. I wasn't there. You know who does know what happened? The biker who was watching the SUV slam into him while he deliberately cut the gas.

I'd just like to point out that you are making the assumption that the rider is watching the SUV. Sure it looks like that "could" be the case but consider this.
1)The rider pulled in front, then looked over his right shoulder to check how much distance he had.
2)The rider then looks ahead for a couple of seconds.
3)The SUV never backs off to a safe distance.
4)The rider then looks over his left shoulder...but at what? a)His face shield is tinted so you can't see his eyes. b) To me he is looking at the rider with the helmet cam until the last second when the SUV gets to close.

Now I freely admit that the motorcyclist in question that got hit was being a complete dumb-ass......but that is why we have laws that by default place the blame on the driver who hits the other from the rear. We are supposed to watch out and avoid the dumb-asses, not join in with their ass-hattery.

Daedalus wrote:

Captain Avatar wrote:
Now, about the "bikers" surrounding the SUV and "supposedly" hitting the vehicle and slashing the tires. The video of him gunning through the bikes does not show a crowd assaulting nor do you see flat tires.

I'm surprised you can see them that well, all I can see is the heads of the bikers behind the other ones. I can't really make out what's happening around the SUV.

If you can't see then do a timer count. The occupants of the SUV claim a lot of activity for 19-24 seconds. Check the time from the hit at 27 seconds, the bikes stopped at about 31-32 seconds and him gunning the vehicle away at 51 seconds.
Sure people were rushing at the vehicle, they had a fellow biker trapped under it.

Just by time alone there is not enough time for what the SUV occupants claim to have happened and real time elapsed. The riders were still trying to get to their friend when he took off(thus hitting the downed rider again by the accounts given so far.

Daedalus wrote:
There's that word again! Why, maybe he was feeling entitled too! Perhaps you are biased?

Perhaps, perhaps not. Please to note that I said that "I wonder" if such was a factor. Not the same as an accusation. It was merely a question as to possible motives for actions that do not make sense with the story and facts presented.

Daedalus wrote:

Captain Avatar wrote:
I am also curious as to what happened just before the pass and subsequent wreck.
The rider gave the SUV driver the same look that I give texting drivers that pull into my lane while I'm beside them on my bike.

Ah, but do you give them that look while you're driving 5 feet in front of them having just driven into their lane and cut them off? If so, you either have eyes in the back of your helmet, or you're not looking where you're going, just as liable to do the exact same thing the SUV did.

I was referring to the look the rider gave the driver while beside the vehicle.
To explain:
Last month a lady in a Jeep Grand Cherokee was in the lane next to me. I was parallel to her driver side window and was able to see here texting as she pulled into my lane. I was right beside her, there was no looking or turn signal. Just her flipping me the bird for honking my horn while diving into the break down lane to avoid being hit.

I'm not saying that the SUV driver was doing the same, just that many other such prior experiences have shown me that such can happen and that I now have a prejudice against Texting drivers.


Again, please to note that I absolutely agree that there were some idiots in the motorcycle group that was involved.
Also note that not all or even most of the group in question were idiots. Out of a large undisciplined group there were only a few that were involved in the assault on the SUV driver.

I was literally raised on motorcycles. Some of my youngest memories are being in the pit with mom for Team Frazzled during one of dad's many races. I learned to ride a bicycle and drove my first Bike one day later and was dirt dauber racing at 8. The wife and I getting new bikes this coming summer and only delayed so we could focus on TBone hospice. So understand where I am coming from.

Everything on the video is six ways to sunday wrong. If it were me or the Wife, there would have been way more than then two in the hospital. The moment you try to open a door we'll open up on you.



All I know is,

 Captain Avatar wrote:

Where you guys are wrong is your rush to absolve the SUV driver of his responsibility.

As with all traffic incidents both parties bear a portion of the responsibility. The debate isn't about that basic principle, the debate is about who is primarily responsible for the whole of this particular incident.

 Captain Avatar wrote:

You claim the rider was bullying the SUV but you have no proof other than conjecture as to what you think the rider is doing and a very slanted/sensationalized story.

Of course there is proof. After all, there is a widely available video which depicts the riders actions. Actions to which motive can easily be attached.

Bear in mind "proof" does not have to be absolute in order to be proof.

 Captain Avatar wrote:

Do you really want to argue that one driver being an idiot allows a second to not only do the same but to also hit someone else and not be responsible? Especially as the SUV driver had time to back off.

Yes, because that argument is made in court every day. And, when there is evidence which extends beyond a police report, it often works.

 Captain Avatar wrote:

Again, my stance is based strictly upon the law.

The letter of it, but not the way it is administered. Given the available video no one in their right mind would bring criminal charges against the SUV driver because there is no way in hell a conviction could be obtained. And yes, part of that is a bias against motorcyclists. But the bulk of it is that the defense would argue the driver was protecting his family; good luck with that as a prosecutor.