Fairytale Games: The Miniatures Campaign

I saw no one else had posted about it. Looks like some great minis so here it is.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/682539325/fairytale-games-the-miniatures-campaign

This is a follow-up from their 1st card game kickstarter. It had great art and slipped in 40 models at the end but w/o details about the figures, or even a sculptor, I didn't back.

This second campaign is mostly about minis. New ones. And great looking ones. Although the Frog Prince is supposed to be getting a facelift.








Greenbrier Games, makers (?) of Zpocalypse are doing the sculpts, and more specifically, a guy who was a character modeler for Bioshock.

It's been said they'll be cast in a stronger PVC and have unique bases.

They're supposed to post 8-9 finalized models from the first campaign (Weds or Thurs, Oct. 9 or 10) but they've only got one so far, the Mad Hatter, and he looks great.

http://thefairytalegames.com/minis/


This is what you get for $100 at the Big Bad Wolf level:



At the Nutcracker Prince level you get the same minis above and the 40 minis from the last campaign for $240. Pretty good deal to me.

Shipping:

US = Free Shipping
Canada = $20
Europe = $30
Other Countries = $40


The only snag I see for some dakkanauts is the scale, set to be 35mm. Some people take the scale thing pretty seriously here. I'm a painter so it's all good to me.

My understanding. Is that these weren't miniatures so much as they're more like Fantasy flight board game pieces.

I backed the original card game, but their comment section... *shudder*.

It's just too much.

I like the concept, but things feel so vague I'm hesitant to give them any more money. I understand their logic behind this campaign- the whole strike while the iron is hot.

I just need a bit more concrete stuff from them.

 cincydooley wrote:
My understanding. Is that these weren't miniatures so much as they're more like Fantasy flight board game pieces.

But what else are miniatures other than miniature representations of something? Whether they are pieces for a board game, figures for display or pieces to a wargame, none of those factors impact whether or not they are miniatures.

They are a single piece PVC miniature, so in that regard they are like Clix and many of the figures used in various board games like the Arkham miniatures by FFG. However, the level of detail that Green Briar is getting is much better than what you find on most board game pieces. You can look up pictures from their Zpocalypse games to see how the material transfers from concept to final product.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
I backed the original card game, but their comment section... *shudder*.

It's just too much.

I like the concept, but things feel so vague I'm hesitant to give them any more money. I understand their logic behind this campaign- the whole strike while the iron is hot.

I just need a bit more concrete stuff from them.

I have similar feelings to be honest. They dropped the 40 minis in at the end of the first campaign clearly without any real forethought. No sculptors, certainly. But so far they seem like they're pulling through. Still, $100,000 to make all that art from last campaign, then to produce moulds for 40 miniatures? Worry, yes.

So I'm hoping this second campaign does well for them.

But what else are miniatures other than miniature representations of something? Whether they are pieces for a board game, figures for display or pieces to a wargame, none of those factors impact whether or not they are miniatures.

As Sean said.

Yes, they're basically game tokens, but they're great ones. And rather creative takes on some interesting characters.
I really can't get over how great that Mad Hatter character looks.

The artwork for them is excellent, and the sculpts I'm seeing look pretty good too. I dig what I see so far.

Yeah, there's some nice sculpts in there so far. Not sure why, but I particularly like Jack and Jill. And the Hatter is ace.

Really like the Esmerelda sculpt. What scale are these going to be?

@Sean - are they similar to the Zombicide game pieces then? I've not ever handled a zPocalypse game piece.

 -Loki- wrote:
Really like the Esmerelda sculpt. What scale are these going to be?

35mm

Flying monkeys!!!!!!

Some of the minis look nice - but this has to be one of the most confusing Kickstarters I've ever seen.

If they made skirmish rules to go with these minis that would be fantastic.

From Update #10 http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/682539325/fairytale-games-the-miniatures-campaign/posts/624568:

New 3D sculpts or improvements:

Cinderella with new pumpkin base


Frog Prince with a new face... much better!


And for 2 minis from the 1st kickstarter, that you can still get in this campaign as the 'Sacred 40':
Rumplestiltskin


And Snow White


Also, by Tuesday there is supposed to be a posting of sculpts for these characters:

Captain Hook
Headless Horseman
Huntsman
Mowgli
Pinocchio

You know, looking at the first post, I was just thinking "that frog prince looks like a nice idea, shame about his face", but then I scrolled down the page and bingo!

That one has got xmas-present-for-non-games playing-relative written all over it.

New and improve sculpts uploaded to the main site: http://thefairytalegames.com/minis/

Snow White with a new face (although I had no trouble with the old one)


King Arthur


Mowgli


As always, I'm rather impressed! I'm in for the $240 level now.

Have they shown any production models yet?

Been very impressed with this one.
Not backing due to spending too much on KS in general... but had I backed #1 I would be on this like a flash.

Since Greenbrier Games (Zpocalpyse) is doing the minis, production models from that campaign would be similar.

However, the plastic is supposed to be a harder like the Zpocalypse: Aftermath expansion.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/greenbriergames/zpocalypse-aftermath-this-time-the-living-are-risi/posts/544372

Examples without checking the link.

3D Sculpt:



3D Sculpt:



You might want to check their updates though. I haven't found an actual review of a miniature enthusiast review the minis though.

More updated sculpts. And there should be 2 more by the end of the campaign, Red (riding hood) and the Headless Horseman. And the minis are coming out as pretty much exact copies of the concept art so that's posted below as well.

New sculpts:

Sherlock Holmes


Quasimodo


Pinnochio - This one is list with an explicit message that says its a WIP, v 1.0


Concept for Red


Concept for Headless Horseman

Anyone have any idea how the game actually plays?

Oh, I like that Horseman concept!

 cincydooley wrote:
Anyone have any idea how the game actually plays?

Piecing together what I've glanced at. Mind you, I'm a painter and couldn't care less about the game so I probably missed some other info.

From update #9:

The first game is temporarily called Fairytale Escape. Weirdly enough, one of our backers also suggested a game idea to us that's very similar (props to Ira!)

The premise of Fairytale Escape is that when the Trinity (Queen of Hearts, Evil Queen, and the Frost Queen) began gathering heroes and villains, they didn't just throw them into the Fairytale Games. Instead, they go into confinement. As a character in this game, you will try to escape imprisonment with or without the help of your fellow players. There will be a lot of obstacles in your way as well as more exploration Fairytale Games style.

So what makes this unique? Different than our main game, we will be using tiles instead of location cards. The tiles will allow you to move a little more traditionally from room to room and offer a lot of surprises along the way. Also, players will be taking their turns simultaneously. That way, you can help or hurt each other on the fly or stay back and watch another player take a beating while you sneak past it all and find a shiv in the corner of a room. Well, not a shiv but you get the point.

You will also be able to use most cards from the card game in this game as well to offer more dynamic play. Of course some of their uses and rulings will be different, but this pretty much gives you a chance to not only extend your mileage on the minis, but also the cards as well!

Can I play this with the main game too? Actually if you really want to have a large game night, you can start the game here and try to escape with other players. Once you do, the story actually takes you into the Fairytale Games. The point of Fairytale Escape, from the Trinity's perspective is to give all characters a small test of survival before even being allowed to participate in the Fairytale Games. That's right... Fairytale Escape is your pre-requisite. If you chose to play this way, any ally or item you acquire in this game will carry on into the main game!

Is this also solo-player? Yes. And this gameplay mechanic has been tested under a different theme. But since that game system never moved forward in that game, we were given the green light by the developer to use it to build Fairytale Escape off of.
Fairytale Quests!

Definitely not the actual name. LOL.

So what kind of game is this? Think Dungeon Crawler. This game idea was actually planted in our minds during the last campaign by one of our backers as well (props to SaucyJack!)

This one will be in the style of team/group play where you explore the inner dungeons of Atlantis, Dragon's Den, Bog of the Jabberwock and the like. Find treasure, upgrade your characters and battle against ferocious bosses! And what's that? Yes... minions, minions, and more minions!

Traditionally, one player will be controlling the Boss, minions, and rouge characters to go up against the "heroes/heroines" of the quest. The Boss will have its own tactical deck for battle while the minions will use ability dice and tactic cards to try to eliminate the invaders. And yes, there will be traps.

The "heroes/heroines" will have their own tactical deck and Utility Boards that will allow them to keep track of items, stats, and health as they wade through the dungeon and fight off minions.

Now, here's where things get different.... You can still backstab your teammates. You might not want to, but if you do, you'll definitely have to take responsibility of your actions. During the dungeon crawl, there will be events that happen, which will keep the unpredictability of the game high and there will be NPCs that will offer side-quests for you to do for them, giving you great rewards or more ways to perish. One other thing that makes this special is that there are character combo moves that when a certain pair are together and the right opportunity is available, you can unleash team special moves!

So um... can you use this with the main game as well?

Yes. If you want to extend your play in Fairytale Games: The Battle Royale (or other editions), these dungeons are based off of actual quests from the main game. So instead of completing objectives and fighting a boss via cards, you can move directly into the corresponding dungeon and battle it out for real.

So if you want a SUPER long gaming night, try combing Fairytale Escape, a Standalone Fairytale Games Edition, then add the right Fairytale Quest when needed. Talk about LEGEN............DARY!
I know you can't talk about the third game. But... a hint? Something?

The only thing I can give you is one word. SKIRMISH.

And a post by the creator Oct. 17th:

We're definitely going to get you as much mileage for the miniatures as possible. What began as player tokens will be something even more adaptable to our upcoming minis games than we've let on. There's a few important details I'm not able to mention just yet but once I can, there will definitely be an "Ooohhhh! Now I get it!" kind of moment for a lot of backers. In my personal opinion (that way the team can't slap me around if I say something wrong...lol) I believe that this campaign is both an upgrade to the Fairytale Games Card Games and also an investment to the upcoming games introduced next year. To be honest, I'm sure we'll have another Kickstarter campaign highlighting these games. Not necessarily for funding, but for also promoting them and giving our Backers Royale a very cost effective opportunity to get them all in one place (along with a lot more exclusives.) We'll also keep growing the minis to give players more options and variety in our games, but by getting them in the Kickstarter they're introduced in, you'll be sure to be getting them at the best moment. The other thing I love about our upcoming games is that they will also make use of some of the cards from the card game. I think any way to upgrade "replayability" into "expandability" for a tabletop, is a step in a positive direction for the industry. I know it's not really related, but when I used to play Magic The Gathering, I really hated (but understood) their decision to differentiate Standard, Extended, and Legendary levels of play. It phased out all the cards I spent so much money for and nobody wanted to play even extended with me because "standard" was always well, standard. LOL. So I was very adamant in giving people flexibility and adaptability in our games. I want players to always have an excuse to take Battle Royale or Horror Edition off the shelves one night even when not playing the card game. You don't have to use the cards from the card game, but if you do, you can up the gameplay

Sadly. That told me little to nothing. What is the "original" game? I'm having trouble seeing these as anything more than board game pawns at this point, which isn't bad, but I'm having trouble reconciling the price because of that. If there was actual game attached to the minis, it would be easier for me.

It's frustrating, cause I've trolled the Ks, and their website, and even looked for info on BGG, and info on the actual game is scarce at best.

Scarecrow up:

 cincydooley wrote:
Sadly. That told me little to nothing. What is the "original" game? I'm having trouble seeing these as anything more than board game pawns at this point, which isn't bad, but I'm having trouble reconciling the price because of that. If there was actual game attached to the minis, it would be easier for me.

It's frustrating, cause I've trolled the Ks, and their website, and even looked for info on BGG, and info on the actual game is scarce at best.

There's stuff out there on the original game- Fairy Tale Battle Royale. I remember reading through rules for basic and advanced combat. Not sure where I read it now, but there's definitely been chunks of rules talked about.

I do like their ideas, and backed the "original" game, but at this point, I really feel I'm paying for vaporware. The fans in the comments have turned the place into their own private blog, and I've given up trying to even check it out.

Still no actual test molds.

The only thing I can think of is this got funded quickly because of a lot of goodwill from their first campaign, but I think it's time to start getting something more substantial than nice figure renders out there.

I don't think any other miniatures KS would be able to get away with that.

Have they even delivered on their 1st KS yet?

 cincydooley wrote:
Have they even delivered on their 1st KS yet?

Ha...ha...HA.

Of course not.

I don't think they even sent out their martial arts card game they made before forming their new company (it was put up by the Fairy Tale creator).

I know part of this campaign was to get produced in tandem with the first game to cut down on costs, so we'll see when things actually get shipped out.

Schmapdi wrote:
Some of the minis look nice - but this has to be one of the most confusing Kickstarters I've ever seen.

I have to agree.

For example, if I want all of the miniatures, plus the game...what do I pledge?

And, if I just want a bunch of miniatures - any miniatures, what level do I pledge at?

And where is the list of the 'Sacred 40", that seem to be a special tier of minis?

And, perhaps most importantly at this point, if I only want THE HORSEMAN, what level do I pledge at?

Thanks!

greywulf wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:
Really like the Esmerelda sculpt. What scale are these going to be?

35mm

WHYYYYYYY. Why do companies constantly try and reinvent the wheel in regards to scale? Just go with what fits in with the stuff people have already.

Asked and sort of answered:

Jared Bond 1 minute ago

@Alpha - 1) TOTO level ($12) gets you just 1 figure. *But* the Headless horseman is one of the "Sacred 40" (40 figures from the previous campaign) which are sold in sets. So you'd have to get Box Set #2 for $30. I'm not sure how to pledge for just this. Email Alex.
2) BIG BAD WOLF level ($100) gets you all the new figures (around 36 now?)
3) NUTCRACKER PRINCE level ($240) gets you all the new figures *and* the 40 old figures.
4) IRON JOHN level ($150) gets you the new figures, the games, and then you can add $150 to get all of the 40 old figures
5) Once you figure all that out, check out the add-ons, as there are some other fun things there to get.

Alpharius just now

So... IRON JOHN for $150 plus an additional $150 gets me all the miniatures produced to date and in this campaign?

Jared Bond 7 minutes ago

Yes. And no. There are some "exclusive" figures you'll be missing:
1) Bonus figure for also backing the Ninja Dice game (an Undead Viking)
2) Bonus figure for backing the original KS and this one (Gears of Bremen)
3) You didn't mention games....there are a few side-games that are in the add-on section as well.

So, somewhat clearer now, though I'm still a bit confused...

Yeah, this whole thing confuses me. I like a lot of the renders, but I dunno.....

Just too many unknowns for me so far...

I also like a lot of the renders and feel that they'd be fun to paint up - but I've no idea if the game itself is any good - or even if it is any fun!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
This might help too:

I think that the Toto level would be ok. $12 isn't to bad, and that clarification helped a lot. But... how do we contact Alex? i take it that ino is over at KS? It's not the most straightforward post...

Hmmm. I'm so...unsure about these minis at that pricepoint . It seems kinda high for board game pawn type minis.

Gar, but I really like some of the renders.

I'm not sure I understand those that are saying the pricepoint is wrong. At the $100 level, its currently 36 minis. That's $2.78 per model, including 5 40mm models. Assuming decent plastic/resin (though that's a bit of the unknown) and the renders turn out fairly well, then it seems a pretty solid price.

Now, there have been better, especially in the board game area, but these are all unique models.

It is odd at this point that the "Sacred 40" comes in at $140/$150. There are some very interesting models in that range though.

 drazz wrote:
I'm not sure I understand those that are saying the pricepoint is wrong. At the $100 level, its currently 36 minis. That's $2.78 per model, including 5 40mm models. Assuming decent plastic/resin (though that's a bit of the unknown) and the renders turn out fairly well, then it seems a pretty solid price.
.

Problem there being, of course, that you have to be in for $100 to start. For a game that may or may not need them?

I'm not even sure where the $150 for the Sacred 40 comes from - unless...that's just all the S40 box sets added up?

It'd be nice to see other unique ranges hit this kind of funding too, especially considering the lack of actual test models at this point. They had talked about models at the end of the previous campaign. That was ran during the summer. Here it is inching closer and closer to November and we still have nothing to see but concept work.

I know I'm being very pessimistic about this, but for a miniatures centric kickstarter (as the only games involved here are from the previous campaign, which I already paid for a while back, and some future nebulous ones... which I would assume would come with miniatures as well) I need to see something more than just renders.

I would like to buy in, but they really haven't done much to win me over the second time around yet. The artwork looks great, and there's some neat ideas for figures.

But still...

I'm leaning this way too.

Might have to wait for 'retail' to pick up most/any of these.

The strategy behind this KS is that they had backers wanting mini's, and they decided to go with a KS soon after the previous one to keep the momentum up. In the previous KS, they were willing to take a loss, but not this one.

KS is not a store, and all that. The risk in this KS is that you're not shown sculpts or renders of many of the miniatures, the company is new, the company is taking a loss, etc. etc. Another risk is that fairytale figures are public domain, so another company with less risk can just as easily put out a similar set of miniatures (eg. Reaper's catalog of fairytale figures).

Here's a list of the Sacred 40. Buried in the previous KS, although there may be a better description in the current one: http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/682539325/fairytale-games-the-battle-royale/posts/528482

Does anyone have any idea of who are the people behind this? I saw that the guy has another KS that just recently finished and having a new one again so soon makes me worry that he's basically biting off more than he can chew. Any established names behind this venture?

Nope! I also checked the website and nada.

The required KS "Risks and Challenges" is a joke, and there's really no accountability on it.

Welcome to KS!!!

EDIT: Check out the Guild of Harmony website for similarly sculpted figures!

This is their website.

http://thefairytalegames.com/


When someone spouts off at the hole this much with nothing to show for it, buyer beware.


Good looking concept, but the doublespeak and flashy Las Vegas advertising has drowned out any sort of credibility for me.


Don't aim too high with this one, there is an issue between it and the first KS project in that they promised. The magic question is How many KS projects can you shill before you overstep yourself?

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/682539325/fairytale-games-the-battle-royale/comments

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1396565454/a-card-game-to-beat-your-friends-senseless

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1396565454/a-card-game-to-beat-your-friends-senseless/posts


Buyer beware


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sining wrote:
Does anyone have any idea of who are the people behind this? I saw that the guy has another KS that just recently finished and having a new one again so soon makes me worry that he's basically biting off more than he can chew. Any established names behind this venture?

Alex Lim
Alexander Lim
Artistic Justice Games
Fairytale games

with added additions of ninja dice games, There is other bullgak in there too, but at the point I'm at now with what I've been digging- I'm not buying anything of what is being said.

There is far too much "We're going to give you this with a side order of chips" for my taste. Smoke and mirrors is all they have.


Seriously, KS is getting to be a little too much of a house of cards.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:


I know I'm being very pessimistic about this, but for a miniatures centric kickstarter (as the only games involved here are from the previous campaign, which I already paid for a while back, and some future nebulous ones... which I would assume would come with miniatures as well) I need to see something more than just renders.

I would like to buy in, but they really haven't done much to win me over the second time around yet. The artwork looks great, and there's some neat ideas for figures.

But still...

I'm wavering back and forth as well. But, Greenbrier Games, the company doing the minis, already has a 2 or 3 retail box sets for Zpocalpyse and expansions. They all contain miniatures, a few examples of which I posted on the 1st page.

So the question is not capability in regards to the miniatures. The question is capability in regards to Alexander Lim and his company being able to keep things together after the project closes.

Some of my concerns:
Fixed $5,000 between each stretch goal. The pledge #s are increasing but every mini company with experience doing a kickstarter is/has learned to increase the amount between the stretches.
The sheer number of minis that will be produced and the cost per unit. Currently, I'm in for 80+ at $240 = $3 per mini.

Some of my assurances:
The minis are being produced (in what I can only assume) is a process where Greenbrier Games takes control from the sculpts to the final plastic product. Even if it's not done in house, they DO have a proven track record of production.
The concept to mini translation is looking good.
The minis will be big, and therefore I will get all (hopefully) of the detail seen in the sculpts.

Furthermore, there have been some recent additions to the character line-up.

Mulan


Beast


There are also 3 'cheesecake' figures being offered as add-ons. ($12 each or $30 for the 3)
Rapunzel (who, in the creator's own words, is "mostly skin and hair ")
Robin Hood
Diao Chan

The concept art is only done for Diao Chan, which you can see here:

NSFW

So $240 gets us all the miniatures for the game, including all stretch goals from this campaign and the "Sacred 40"?

I think in the end I'm going to sit this one out, unless they actually hit Lu Bu... then I'd at least have to get him.

I thought about pledging, but then thought again- I've arleady got the "Sacred 40" set coming with the original campaign, and whenever they get around to their Heroquest style game, I'm sure more will be included/ available/ have new ones to release.

Still, there's some very interesting and unique designs here. Glad I'm getting that Mulan figure with my original purchase. She looks pretty cool.

 Alpharius wrote:
So $240 gets us all the miniatures for the game, including all stretch goals from this campaign and the "Sacred 40"?

Yes, for the most part.

There are the 3 cheesecake minis that are add-ons for $12 each ($30 for the 3).
There's also a cross-promotional mini (an undead viking?) for backers of a related ninja dice campaign.

I'm tempted to go in for $240 to get all the minis.

But I'm equally tempted to stay out, wait until they're actually available retail, and potentially avoid a huge disaster that might be in the works here...

I'll be waiting until retail. That dumb ass "sacred 40" nonsense is a ridiculous idea.

1-2 exclusive models I get. 40? Cut off your nose to spite your face.

 cincydooley wrote:
I'll be waiting until retail. That dumb ass "sacred 40" nonsense is a ridiculous idea.

1-2 exclusive models I get. 40? Cut off your nose to spite your face.

Eh, it's that whole backer exclusive nonsense.

Plus, they gave away 40 of those to everyone in the first campaign, which while nice for the consumer, is a ridiculously stupid business move in my opinion. They are going to be taking such a loss it's not even funny. Yeah, they got a lot of interest. Yeah, they had a big initial rush to their current campaign due to what they did last time. I don't blame them for wanting to recoup their costs a bit.

I will be seriously impressed if they're able to deliver all the crap that I was able to get for 65 bucks or whatever last time around. Four games that constitute thousands of cards, expansions to said game, 40 figures, mini games... it's a lot.

Of course BattleCON: Devastation of Indines has a box full of junk for roughly the same price, but that campaign didn't include any miniatures either.

I think I get it now, but the first thing to keep in mind is that they will have a pledge manager later so you can yadda yadda. (If I've made an error below, please correct me!)

The page is rather confusingly laid out though*: for example, the "Snow" (Snow White) character is a "Sacred 40" character, but a "Big Bad Wolf" pledge will net you a "Zombie Snow" (Box set #4 on the right).



The "Sacred 40" are available in 6 sets for $30 per set or 2 for $50 (so you can get them all for $150)


*Which means that this image contains both regular pledge items and "Sacred 40" pledge items in the same image. Irksome.

"Nutcracker Prince" level seems...decent?

Pledge $240 or more

NUTCRACKER PRINCE ~ For those who are here for our beautifully designed miniatures only, this tier offers ALL BOX SETS and the SACRED 40 MINIS (from the add-ons) as well as ALL STRETCH GOALS! You'll also receive an Illustrated E-Book with Bios/Storylines of each Miniature Character and an EXCLUSIVE Queen of Hearts Boss card + Quest Card Variant! (Please add your area Shipping amount manually to your Pledge)
Estimated delivery: Sep 2014

Still unsure though, and only 23 hours left to decide!

If these figures turn out even half-decent I'll be all over most of them. I love the concept, and the renders look quite good, too. I'll be waiting for reviews of them before giving them a go, though.

Probably the smart play at this point...

For the moment I'm taking a bit of a gamble and going for the basic pledge, with the hope that they will surprise me later.

It's really quite hard to get a feel for the deal here: it's not the bonanza of miniatures that something like Sedition Wars had (which in fairness, may very well be for the best...), but for individual characters it runs much cheaper then projects like Bombshell miniatures. The big models are pretty darned big,



But at the same time these are pre-assembled miniatures in "PVC 95 degrees plastic" (more on this here).

And they've never released or produced any miniatures previously. I'm interested in the models, but I can't say I trust the company until I see some product.

 cincydooley wrote:
And they've never released or produced any miniatures previously. I'm interested in the models, but I can't say I trust the company until I see some product.

I addressed this above. Yes, the company in question has never released or produced any miniatures previously. However, the company who's actually handling the modeling and production has.

Greenbrier Games
http://www.greenbriergames.com/gbg/

That's great that greenbrier did something completely unrelated to this company; it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not this Alex Lim company will be able to.

I mean, I find it increasing sketchy that this brand new company with no actual products to show for it is running a 2nd Kickstarter before any product has actually been delivered for the first.

Seawitch went up this morning.

greywulf wrote:
I addressed this above. Yes, the company in question has never released or produced any miniatures previously. However, the company who's actually handling the modeling and production has.

That's better than the information we had for Fairytale's first KS, but doesn't tell enough. If Alexander Lim and his investors do not have enough funds for both projects, I doubt Greenbrier Games is going to make the models for free. It's no different than a video game KS that's hired a talented group of engineers for the project. If they don't get paid, then what?

Different backers have different tolerances for risk. And you *can* have a successful project with red flags. I'm sure that had FG addressed various concerns, they'd have more funding. But FG has reached its goal, so you can't say the KS hasn't been successful for at least them.

lol, a whole nother Dakka page of discussion and I'm not really any closer to figuring out what's going on here than I was like two weeks ago.

I think I'll just sit this one out and wait and buy the few sculpts I really like next year when/if they hit retail.

Hope they turn out well.

*Also - think its really dumb to have the mixed sets like they do. I hope that's not how they are sold at retail. If, for instance, I really like the Alice in Wonderland minis, I'm not going to buy 5 different box sets full of minis I don't want to in order to collect them. Would make way more sense to have thematic box sets.

Schmapdi wrote:
*Also - think its really dumb to have the mixed sets like they do. I hope that's not how they are sold at retail. If, for instance, I really like the Alice in Wonderland minis, I'm not going to buy 5 different box sets full of minis I don't want to in order to collect them. Would make way more sense to have thematic box sets.

And miss out on all those dollars from people for exactly that reason?

I personally don't like the blind box style of product like heroclix etc and while usually limited to collectable games it seems not that much of a stretch for these guys to do that.

If the sculpts turn out as nice as they look I would consider a couple of individual ones from ebay or similar.

Schmapdi wrote:
*Also - think its really dumb to have the mixed sets like they do. I hope that's not how they are sold at retail. If, for instance, I really like the Alice in Wonderland minis, I'm not going to buy 5 different box sets full of minis I don't want to in order to collect them. Would make way more sense to have thematic box sets.

From creator on Oct 20:

@Moneypenny I'm going to tell you a secret. Per request of some backers, our box sets may shift after the campaign end to "theme" them better so that you can get all steampunk in one, all horror in another, etc. We just can't do it until we know which characters are finally unlocked. But shhhhh don't say anything yet!

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/682539325/fairytale-games-the-miniatures-campaign/comments?cursor=4740126#comment-4740125


Also, an 11th hour update has been posted:

Hi Everyone! Wow, at the 11th hour we have REALLY come a long way. At almost another character unlock at $205k we are speeding towards breaking Kicktraq again! Can you believe that just today alone, we have unlocked a total of 8 Characters? Here's some statistics for you:



(Note: We just unlocked Lu Bu! So we now have 40 Free Minis.... deja vu in a good way! This makes our total miniatures available in this campaign at 95 and growing. VERY AWESOME!)

TRINITY! We unlocked Trinity! That is definitely pretty cool, especially since you can play as them or against them in the Dungeon Crawl game to be introduced next year, among other things
Seven Days of Kickstarter Tally:

Undead Viking
Little Bo Peep
The Voodoo Doll
Cao Cao (Boss Card)
Jenny Greenteeth
La Llorona
Wendigo (Boss Card)
Zombie Peter the Pumpkin Eater
Bandersnatch (Boss Card)
Mr. Sandman
The Nightengale
Lilith
Watson
Steampunk Emperor with New Clothes
Frost Queen (Boss Card)
Evil Queen (Boss Card)
Queen of Hearts.... Character Card!
Frost Queen.... Character Card!
Evil Queen.... Character Card! <-- New! For unlocking Lu Bu

Backer Voted Miniature (From Box Set#7)

So with the help of Slamfist Media and TheHatter, we have compiled a list of your TOP 5 characters that you'd like to see take this slot. We'll be giving you all 48 hours to vote and will announce who will be your Backer Voted Mini!

Day-1 Exclusives Redeux!

For those who missed out on the Day-1 Exclusive Cards, we really do want you to be able to get them. But, you will have to do something to get them. Here are 3 things you can do that will not only help this campaign reach more people, but also make things super easy for you to get the cards. Ready? You can do one or all of the following:

Facebook Like this Campaign on the Kickstarter Main Page
Share this campaign through Kicktraq.com
Give us a Tweet on Twitter
Go to BGG and give our game a "Thumb" or post some great comments
Go to our Facebook and "Like" our page
Go to the Comments Section of this campaign and say "Hi" to some of the really awesome people there!
Add to the Mystery Box (and get a Mystery Box Reward!)

Because we have the all-seeing crystal ball from Trinity, we can check! Well, not really. It's by honor system but remember, if you do these things, it will help this campaign during the last 11 hours and will essentially get you all some stretch goal unlocks going pretty quickly!
So it's the last half a day! Don't you have ANYTHING else for us?

Well, we definitely can't go nuts like the last campaign. But there were some talks in the comment threads that made me smile. I brought it to the attention of the team and they thought it to be pretty fun as well. So.....



Can you imagine? A bunch of items randomly appearing that are basically fairytale character heads! And these two will have to mad dash for them to gain that character's special abilities or powers! This will be a fast and frantic new edition to the Super Fairytale Fighters 2 Battle Packs.... FREE for the Big Bad Wolf tier and up!

And with that, the team and I are very excited to be here with you all during the final 11 hours! (Wow! I think we just unlocked Lu Bu!) Congratulations everyone...Time to edit the graphics!

 cincydooley wrote:
That's great that greenbrier did something completely unrelated to this company; it doesn't have any bearing on whether or not this Alex Lim company will be able to.

I mean, I find it increasing sketchy that this brand new company with no actual products to show for it is running a 2nd Kickstarter before any product has actually been delivered for the first.

Fourth project.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1396565454/a-card-game-to-beat-your-friends-senseless
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/1396565454/created

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/682539325/fairytale-games-the-miniatures-campaign?ref=live
http://www.kickstarter.com/profile/682539325

Wow. And they haven't delivered on that one, which is under a different name, either?

Don't hold your breath on it either.

They have entirely too much excessive "How to get rich from KS/ Crowd funding" to actually do what they say they are going to do.

The stink coming off of these "Projects" is enough to gag a maggot.

Call it my deep seated sense of being curious, but there are really some things that one would want to keep out of a project discussion if they were in fact for real. Advertising for Crowdfunding, resources on how to get rich, and excessive background on "Us vs Them and how to part people from their money" might be one of them.


If I pull out this card, what will happen......

http://www.kcharry.com/an-interview-with-alex-lim-kickstarter-campaign-a-card-game-to-beat-your-friends-senseless-by-artistic-justice-games/

http://thefairytalegames.com/

http://www.corporationwiki.com/Texas/Sugar-Land/alex-lim/39243345.aspx

http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/141636/fairytale-games-the-battle-royale

https://www.facebook.com/FairytaleGames

https://www.facebook.com/pages/Artistic-Justice-Games/111100309062655


I'm sure there is a logical explanation...

The really suspicious part for me is how they have a KS under another company name instead of having the same name throughout. Who does that?

They were run at different times, for what it's worth. The martial arts game seems to have fallen off the map, and not much more has been heard about it since September.

On the other hand they still keep updating the Fairy tale website with renders, artwork, gameplay... so that makes me feel a *bit* better.

I figure at this point if I'm only out 65 from the original campaign, so be it. They sure did put on a good song and dance the first time around. I truly hope they can deliver everything to an acceptable level of quality, or they can kiss all these other games they're cooking up goodbye.

I'm curious- how many of you ever tried to read those comments? Ouch.

That is the issue.

The obvious attempt and misdirect.

Your "Well, I'm only out 65.00" is what is being banked on and I have a sneaking suspicion that it will be the same with the so called "Sacred 40, plus what else shows...."

The project, if you notice is morphing. It might have started out for some mini's, but it is not exactly for that now. They will probably go on to continue to update the website for a couple of months, then said owner will go on ahead and start up another one, probably using Al lim or ALE Lim, or A. Lim as the owner this time. Might use Farytale games LTD, or LLC, or whatever.

And under another company and name of owner as well, there WAS a card game, now there is not.

As to the comments? I read them all in my research, YOU should too.


There is an obvious attempt to use Kickstarter as a way to make money. Not exactly for the project, either.

Who exactly gives away 40+ miniatures?
What exactly was the original funding for, and what exactly is the funding for now?
Where is the common denominator in these projects?
When is the timeframe for completion of the project, and will the additions of all that cool guy stuff effect the completion- 5-6 adds, how much extra time do you need?
Why the need for the dual company's, dual names?
How exactly is this guys idea that he can make everything for everyone give him access to over 230,000 plus on one project, 130,000 on another project, and 8,000 on a third?

That's Almost 500,000 bucks in cash for ...someone. Someone using two different names and companies on three different projects.

2 created, two backed. 2 created 7 backed, when in fact there have been five plus, not mentioning the added partnerships and convoluted financing of OTHER Kickstarted "Games" though third parties.


not a bad haul for morphing project to project. Going to be great come tax time.

Next will be the cheesecake zombie of death in neverland fight to the death with MMA quality figures. (That should net them a couple of hundred more to round an even million.)

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
They were run at different times, for what it's worth. The martial arts game seems to have fallen off the map, and not much more has been heard about it since September.

On the other hand they still keep updating the Fairy tale website with renders, artwork, gameplay... so that makes me feel a *bit* better.

I figure at this point if I'm only out 65 from the original campaign, so be it. They sure did put on a good song and dance the first time around. I truly hope they can deliver everything to an acceptable level of quality, or they can kiss all these other games they're cooking up goodbye.

I'm curious- how many of you ever tried to read those comments? Ouch.

Not really sure how this makes it better. So what if they were run at different times? Is there a reason why company name A can't be the same creator for fairy tale games instead of having a new company name? What possible reason could there be for it to be separated into 2 different company names?

This was an interview by the "creator".

http://www.crowdcrux.com/card-games-thrive-on-kickstarter/

If you funded the card game, did you get what you funded?
Was there an explanation to the backers why they are using different names and companies?
Are the backers still given as much enthusiasm as is portrayed in this interview? Are backers being kept informed and getting their project?

What sorts of communication should a fairytale funder be expecting? Will they disappear after a couple of months only to come up with a new company or name?



If you were a backer, are you seeing the same amount of attention now as is spouted out in this... project?

Of course the funding is over, but now the watch on how this unfolds begins.



Good luck to all who funded, please watch this one as I am.

Something about this one just rubs me the wrong way.

Well, I can understand your concerns, but this is a very pessimistic way to approach things. (caveat, I did blindly back "Up Front" - though had I known the issues, I probably would have avoided it).

I prefer to take more of an occam's razor approach. Rather than thinking they're out to steal money for some nefarious purpose (which you seem to imply), I think they are a young company, trying to learn business methods on the fly.

Granted, this does bring a level of risk - one that I think is more appropriate to discuss. I'm not focused on the question "What type of company gives away 40 miniatures for free" but instead on "What type of company gives away 40 *exclusive* miniatures for free?"

Yes, that's right. They initially said the minis were exclusive. In my mind, the simplest explanation is that they had not thought through their project, and got carried away with their success.

This is how I see it:
1) They had a successful boxing KS/card game.
2) They decided to develop a 2nd game, while working on the 1st. During this process, they realized they could repurpose the boxing game, in a fairytale theme.
3) They decided to launch the 2nd game as a KS, with the fairytale boxing game as an add-on. They mentioned their dreams of expanding the 2nd game to have zombie/steampunk/horror-themed decks, to capitalize on current trends
------------------------
This is the part where their campaign begins to jump the shark
------------------------
4) Highly successful, the KS campaign unlocks each of the 4 expansion decks. And then even unlocks 40 miniatures that they promised to give out as free exclusives.
------------------------
Here is where they begin to modify their project on the fly. The quickly realize that there is a market here. Backers give them ideas, which they run with. There is the demand for *more* miniatures to go with the game. Already, this KS is going to cost way more $ than it brought in (see 40 free miniatures). *They* say that this was what they had planned. That they'd use their own $ to cover the costs, deciding it was worth the out-of-pocket investment to build a loyal fan base. I'm not so sure. But this raises another caution flag
-----------------------------
5) With the desire from investors to add more miniatures, they run some numbers and realize that it will be cheaper to create the minis all at once, and a 2nd KS campaign focused on minis would help with the incurred costs from the 1st fairytale KS campaign.
6) They launch KS #2.
7) They decide to modify the project again, envisioning a much larger board-game style that will utilize miniatures. Unfortunately, they had already said their core figures were "exclusive"
8) They go back on their word about the exclusivity of the first 40 figures. Backers grumble, but go along with the ride. Pledge levels have to be altered in the first week to accomodate this, adding to confusion for the rest of the KS.
9) Now the project is 4 full decks of cards, a boxing fairytale game, 100 miniatures, and a promise of new decks/minis and larger games in the next year
------------------------
Conclusions - I feel that this is a poorly run start-up, that is trying to learn what works, what doesn't, respond directly to investor input, and try to figure out who they are.

Concerns -
A) They seem to rush into things without a firm end-game
B) With split and changing attention, they leave behind investors who were committed to earlier visions/plans
C) They went significantly into debt with the 1st Fairytale KS
D) They haven't delivered on the boxing KS (see B)

Why you might still back them -
A) They have created a significant number of card/mini mock-ups. They are clearly juggling the work of a dozen different artists (presumably paying them), that are creating some great designs. Nothing I've seen has shown that they aren't 100% into making a game (though what it is....)
B) I don't fault KS2 for being so close to KS1. That makes sense (in a poorly planned sort of way) - Though the original boxing KS is another matter
C) Their end vision could be amazing. This I feel is the point of KS - backing the artistic vision of a creator in order to help them achieve something that was previously unachievable. Right now they have over 100 amazing miniatures. They have hundreds of art examples. If they can somehow manage to put it all together (combining elements from all of their steps/missteps along the way), they'll have an amazing game to produce in 2015.

So yeah, is it perfect? No. Not even close. But I imagine this is where "Up Front" could have been, had "Up Front" not had the added layer of the creator being involved in a major lawsuit.

Suspect first post.

I still think it's incredibly shady, regardless. Too much potential shell company stuff going on. No actual products released to date. Pretty easy non back for me.

 cincydooley wrote:
Suspect first post.

See, that's what I'm talking about. What sent you on the "suspect" path? Was my post too positive? Too optimistic? Did the post somehow convince you that I'm a shell for Alex's fairytale company? I personally don't see the evidence in my post for you to leap to this nefarious conclusion. Wouldn't a simpler explanation be that a new member might have found reference to this thread, say on BGG, and decided to add his or her perspective to the discussion?

Either way, welcome to Dakka Dakka!

The real interesting bit will be when the demo kits start showing up- supposedly they're being put together to send out into the wild.

We'll see how things unfold.

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
The real interesting bit will be when the demo kits start showing up- supposedly they're being put together to send out into the wild.

We'll see how things unfold.

I don't feel that will be terribly relevant. The demo sets won't show whether they're able to create 100 minis, or thousands of cards within a budget and on time. It may provide an inkling as to how the gameplay is for the larger decks......but it seems that FTG already has their eyes on a larger target. These minis aren't terribly useful in the current card game, but will be used more fully in whatever next game they are in the midst of creating. Again, it's clearly not the most organized, or standard, way of doing things.....but it doesn't necessarily negate what they are creating.

tripleplay wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Suspect first post.

See, that's what I'm talking about. What sent you on the "suspect" path? Was my post too positive? Too optimistic? Did the post somehow convince you that I'm a shell for Alex's fairytale company? I personally don't see the evidence in my post for you to leap to this nefarious conclusion. Wouldn't a simpler explanation be that a new member might have found reference to this thread, say on BGG, and decided to add his or her perspective to the discussion?

Yes yes and yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Though the word I would have used was "shill," not "shell."

I mean, I'll be blunt. I don't trust them until they actually deliver some sort of product. They've run their 3rd complete Kickstarter and have yet to deliver a thing. Your post, from my perspective, reeks of "insider information," which was my primary reason for being suspect of your post. If it isn't, it's a whole lot of speculation, which means jack gak.

I hope they deliver; I like a bunch of the sculpts. But because of the lack or history and the fact they're using multiple names for their KS throws up a ton of red flags for me. A ton.

.....



I went on ahead and had a five page paragraph written to countermand your rather unconvincing first page there.

I retracted it.

The information is there that there is an issue on the table that the project creator- Alex, Alexander, Al, A., AL or whatever he wants to call himself is either intentionally or unintentionally marketing several different projects with different companies, and that he is so jazzed with the " excellent fan base" that he doesn't even have the common courtesy to treat people with the respect that they deserve by using a gentlemans agreement that you ask for funding for a project, and fund the project and get it to the backers.
Instead, he makes the conscious effort to intentionally or unintentional try to mask the facts, start two other projects, and completely ignore the previous effort without explanation.

There is roughly over 400,000 bucks on deck here. not to mention all of the other back door funding that comes with places like Kicking it forward.org, etc......

Blatent disrespect in my book, as a Man, and a Business.

My research was done by the book, and dug into some questionable issues on deck. YOU are welcome to post information to the contrary, but I'm not going to sit back and watch as someone is outright deliberately trying to pull the wool over dakka dakka's eyes and try to work them like a carnival sideshow. If my information is in error, feel free to set the record to right.

You might think its cute to gak the gakkers, I find it disturbing.

Enough to make me want to dig deeper.

Be careful about pushing me into that. You might not like what I come up with.

With someone with that many Facebook accounts, YOU have enough red flags on your right now for me to have some fun and maybe even see what the Great State of Texas has to say about this sort of a business model.

tripleplay wrote:

 cincydooley wrote:
Suspect first post.

See, that's what I'm talking about. What sent you on the "suspect" path? Was my post too positive? Too optimistic? Did the post somehow convince you that I'm a shell for Alex's fairytale company? I personally don't see the evidence in my post for you to leap to this nefarious conclusion. Wouldn't a simpler explanation be that a new member might have found reference to this thread, say on BGG, and decided to add his or her perspective to the discussion?

You never really addressed WHY they felt the need to start a 2nd company just to make their 2nd KS while their first KS hasn't delivered anything at all

Eh, I've seen the same situation with another KS. IIRC, The creator had a personal account that he used to back KS, and another to have them funded. Or... something. Still could be considered a red flag, especially in light of everything else.

CMON seems to be doing the reverse! They seem to be a middle-man fronting different creators, so the post-funding results have been all over the place.

I think, more importantly, is to know who AL's "investors" are, the folks willing to lose money on the first KS. I never could find that information. Any backers know who else is behind the business??

 cincydooley wrote:

Though the word I would have used was "shill," not "shell."

I mean, I'll be blunt. I don't trust them until they actually deliver some sort of product. They've run their 3rd complete Kickstarter and have yet to deliver a thing. Your post, from my perspective, reeks of "insider information," which was my primary reason for being suspect of your post. If it isn't, it's a whole lot of speculation, which means jack gak.

I hope they deliver; I like a bunch of the sculpts. But because of the lack or history and the fact they're using multiple names for their KS throws up a ton of red flags for me. A ton.

Thank you for correcting my spelling...
As for my post being based on "insider information," - yes, I have read all the updates and all of Alex's comments on the two kickstarter projects. (This is opposite of the previous poster who declared "I don't read comments.") This is how I know Alex pushed the delivery date for the original KS back a month for every deck he unlocked (meaning he thinks it'll be 4-5 months past the posted date......I believe it could easily be twice that). And as for my comments being worthless if they are based upon speculation - well, what are yours based upon?

The next poster suggested there were concerns about this project raising $400k. Well, I'm actually a bit optimistic because of that - their previous campaign *did not* earn enough money (in my mind) to produce what they had promised. Now, though, $400k *should* be enough to create 100 minis, 4-6 decks of cards, pay the artists, shipping, and deliver the product to 1,500 backers. There are still concerns about a new company handling such a large job. But already they are delegating the miniature production to a company that *has* delivered miniatures before, and I am not concerned about them being able to turn the renderings into actual figures. For me, the risk is more about them managing their money, their time, and their vision.

I truly hope they take time to consider and plan what their next step is. People have invested a lot (see above) into their vision, which wasn't fully developed (or was developed, but they were quite open to changing the plan mid-stream). There is a huge potential that this will create an amazing game, even if their approach is to put the cart-before-the-horse. Assuming they are able to deliver on all of their promises (I still think it's a bit early to be all doom-and-gloom about the initial boxing KS, but that needs to be delivered in the next month - or by the end of the year - or else they'll be in difficulty) - I think they could be in a good place at the end of 2014, beginning of 2015 to create a great game. They have an interesting concept, will have 100 miniatures, and hundreds of art cards. That seems to be the expensive part, so hopefully they'll be able to focus their time on the game development to create their "big picture" game.

Oh, and as to them shifting accounts/names. I think that is more in line with their (frequent) mis-steps in business/marketing. I doubt they anticipated that people would read something nefarious into their choice to put the Fairytale line under a new name. Rather than thinking they are shuffling businesses to avoid debt (see "Up Front"), it makes more sense that they made a decision without thinking. They seem fairly competent about fixing/addressing their mis-steps, which hopefully will become fewer as they learn how to run a proper business.

tripleplay wrote:

Thank you for correcting my spelling...

Didn't mean to, actually. Thought you mean shell as in "shell company," which I did mention in my previous post.

The next poster suggested there were concerns about this project raising $400k. Well, I'm actually a bit optimistic because of that - their previous campaign *did not* earn enough money (in my mind) to produce what they had promised. Now, though, $400k *should* be enough to create 100 minis, 4-6 decks of cards, pay the artists, shipping, and deliver the product to 1,500 backers. There are still concerns about a new company handling such a large job. But already they are delegating the miniature production to a company that *has* delivered miniatures before, and I am not concerned about them being able to turn the renderings into actual figures. For me, the risk is more about them managing their money, their time, and their vision.

Well that's sort of the problem. The numbers don't add up for anyone familair with the costs of producing plastic miniatures.

Your average plastic miniature costs between $5k-10k for the mould itself. Even looking at the low end:

100 miniatures x $5,000 per mould = $500,000.

Now, Lets ASSUME that Greenbriar is either giving them a discount or can do it for significantly cheaper, say $3,000 per mould. Thats STILL $300,000 in associated costs going towards miniature production.

Now, lets look at something else basic...shipping. I'm going to make the conservative estimate (based on what I know about bulk shipping discounts) that, on average, the cost of shipping is going to be around $13 (and I think this low):

1269 backers x $13 per shipping = $16,497. So there's another chunk

Then there's the 10% they'll be paying to Amazon Payments/Kickstarter, so there goes another $40,000 total.

So right now, we're looking at a grand total of around $40k to produce a conservative 6,000 decks of cards (which is actually more like 54,000 decks of cards based on the card #s of 400+ cards per 'set'), pay artists, and come up with any other associated coststhey need. And that's WITH the incredibly conservative estimate regarding miniature production.

The numbers don't add up.

People have invested a lot (see above) into their vision, which wasn't fully developed (or was developed, but they were quite open to changing the plan mid-stream).

Stop right there. That's enough reason for MANY people to put this one in a high risk bracket. "Wasn't Fully Developed" isn't exactly a phrase you should be taking to potential investors (which is what, effectively, KS backers are).

Oh, and as to them shifting accounts/names. I think that is more in line with their (frequent) mis-steps in business/marketing. I doubt they anticipated that people would read something nefarious into their choice to put the Fairytale line under a new name. Rather than thinking they are shuffling businesses to avoid debt (see "Up Front"), it makes more sense that they made a decision without thinking. They seem fairly competent about fixing/addressing their mis-steps, which hopefully will become fewer as they learn how to run a proper business.

I don't know how you can say they seem "fairly competent" when everything else in that paragraph suggest otherwise.

Damn Cincy, when you put it all like that it really makes me feel like I pissed my money away.

It'll be interesting to see how things develop, to say the least.

There are some CRAY ZAY fans up in those comments section to. I hope things turn out alright for their sakes, because there's no telling what they'll be up to.

Those numbers do seem a bit...troubling, don't they?

Thanks cincydooley,

This KS is super appealing. Nice art, lots of minis, nice source material. As a mini line, this really appealed to me.

But you are right... it doesn't pass the sniff test. After doing minimal research, this appears to be vaporware... or at least having enough fulfillment issues to make me 'wait until retail'.

Just to echo some of what tripleplay said, the involvement of Greenbrier Games (an established miniatures company) is what gives me confidence. Alex and his cohorts would have to have provided not only project plans and goals, but also funding and funding plans. Furthermore, while the responsibilities were being outlined in the legal contract both businesses no doubt drew up, GGames would have no doubt contributed its expertise to the project planning and funding model.

I agree that the $ amount between stretch goals raises questions, but Alex must have convinced GGames of his ability to get this done. And its no small matter that GGames will be left on the hook for tens of thousands (or more) if Alex ducks out in the middle of the production process. If GGames hasn't expressed any misgivings yet (as their workload grew to encompass the full production of 100+ miniatures) I don't think we can arrive at many conclusions.

I bought in and I think it will be as important to keep an eye on GGames over the next few months as it will be to keep an eye on Alex.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Let me further add that each of GGames kickstarter projects raised $200,000 and produced around 30 unique minis on top of the publishing and printing of its game materials.

I'd like to point towards The Doom that Came to Atlantic city, a KS that apparently had very high profile people linked to it and yet turned out to be a scam anyway. Why? Because the virtual unknown running the KS campaign and the one who was in charge of the company and the KS funds wasted it all away on his own expenses without anything to show for it.

So unless GGames was the one listed as the KS creator, I don't think this means anything.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

ced1106 wrote:
Eh, I've seen the same situation with another KS. IIRC, The creator had a personal account that he used to back KS, and another to have them funded. Or... something. Still could be considered a red flag, especially in light of everything else.

This is totally different. This person is using one account to create one game KS and then using another account to create ANOTHER game KS. It's not a matter of backing with one account and creating with another


Automatically Appended Next Post:

tripleplay wrote:

Thank you for correcting my spelling...
As for my post being based on "insider information," - yes, I have read all the updates and all of Alex's comments on the two kickstarter projects. (This is opposite of the previous poster who declared "I don't read comments.") This is how I know Alex pushed the delivery date for the original KS back a month for every deck he unlocked (meaning he thinks it'll be 4-5 months past the posted date......I believe it could easily be twice that). And as for my comments being worthless if they are based upon speculation - well, what are yours based upon?

I'm going to be honest here. On sep23, Alex promises that the decks are being proof-read and being readied to print and that backers will GET the print-and-play as soon as they're finalised. Yet, one month later, has anyone from that KS received any of these print-and-play decks? They do mention they're going to release them one by one so obviously they don't have to wait for the whole thing to be finished before releasing them. Yet, still...nothing...

 cincydooley wrote:

Well that's sort of the problem. The numbers don't add up for anyone familair with the costs of producing plastic miniatures.

Your average plastic miniature costs between $5k-10k for the mould itself. Even looking at the low end:

100 miniatures x $5,000 per mould = $500,000.

Now, Lets ASSUME that Greenbriar is either giving them a discount or can do it for significantly cheaper, say $3,000 per mould. Thats STILL $300,000 in associated costs going towards miniature production.

Now, lets look at something else basic...shipping. I'm going to make the conservative estimate (based on what I know about bulk shipping discounts) that, on average, the cost of shipping is going to be around $13 (and I think this low):

1269 backers x $13 per shipping = $16,497. So there's another chunk

Then there's the 10% they'll be paying to Amazon Payments/Kickstarter, so there goes another $40,000 total.

So right now, we're looking at a grand total of around $40k to produce a conservative 6,000 decks of cards (which is actually more like 54,000 decks of cards based on the card #s of 400+ cards per 'set'), pay artists, and come up with any other associated coststhey need. And that's WITH the incredibly conservative estimate regarding miniature production.

You forgot the cost to sculpt those figures as well. Given the quality of the renders shown assume $1,000 per figure.. or another $100,000 in the money pit.

They'd like be around $0.60 each to cast... No idea how many figures each backer gets, but this will not be that expensive.. only a few thousand.

Those decks would probably come out to $130k just to print, not counting the art and design costs.

greywulf wrote:
Just to echo some of what tripleplay said, the involvement of Greenbrier Games (an established miniatures company) is what gives me confidence.

That's better than at the time of the first Fairytale KS, but just because you have an artist or sculptor, doesn't mean you have a product. The litigation-infested Up Front has its art nearly (?) ready, but the artists haven't even been paid yet. I'm assuming GG has better terms than that, but it's also possible that GG will only bring the project to the concept sculpts stage. Part of the KS funds Reaper will use is for the down-payment of the molds used in manufacturing. If you saw the recent Reaper video, they didn't need any KS funds for the model prototypes.

At this point, I hope the project succeeds. I don't see anyone gaining anything if it fails.

 Cyporiean wrote:

You forgot the cost to sculpt those figures as well. Given the quality of the renders shown assume $1,000 per figure.. or another $100,000 in the money pit.

They'd like be around $0.60 each to cast... No idea how many figures each backer gets, but this will not be that expensive.. only a few thousand.

Those decks would probably come out to $130k just to print, not counting the art and design costs.

Oh gak. Completely forgot about the sculpting costs.

And with those deck printing costs, it's even more shaky.

Maybe they're committing a lot more of their money that we realize. But I doubt it. Again, I hope people don't get screwed over, but man, it just doesn't smell right to me.

Are these going to be available for retail later on, or will they be exclusive to the Kickstarter? I'm really sad I missed these, they look really cool.

Actually I do remember Alex saying something during the first KS about investing a lot of their own money into the campaign, with the first serving as a loss leader in the hopes of bringing more people on board a more financially sound campaign.

I'm not saying that this is a financially solid campaign (I just don't know)

but running projects as different companies/accounts is not uncommon if different financial partnerships are involved

eg

Cyper (Hell Dorado) + Soda Pop (Relic Knights in combination with CMON) + Paladium (no KS profile) came together as Ninja Divison to run the Robotech KS

(of course if all those involved were the same that's a different story)

 OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote:
I'm not saying that this is a financially solid campaign (I just don't know)

but running projects as different companies/accounts is not uncommon if different financial partnerships are involved

eg

Cyper (Hell Dorado) + Soda Pop (Relic Knights in combination with CMON) + Paladium (no KS profile) came together as Ninja Divison to run the Robotech KS

(of course if all those involved were the same that's a different story)

There's a lot more to that Story than that. I don't really see it as the same, but to each his own.

I suspect your interpretation may well be right (sadly)

but felt I should point out there might be another explanation

as with all KS/preorder stuff people have to make their own minds up as you say

 highlord tamburlaine wrote:
Actually I do remember Alex saying something during the first KS about investing a lot of their own money into the campaign, with the first serving as a loss leader in the hopes of bringing more people on board a more financially sound campaign.

This rings so many warning bells... There was another KS like this recently, Clang! which assumed that they were able to finance their project with outside finances once their KS funding finished. And in the end, it didn't.

There's been an update with positive news for the future, including artwork for another card game that's planned for after the delivery of the fairytale card game and the miniatures.

Here's a WIP of Peter Pan from the update:



Furthermore, soon after the campaign finished some of the backers discovered this dakkadakka thread. The creator did too. It was a little after the fact but the creator set up a FAQ page to respond to basically all the questions about legitimacy that were brought up here.

The FAQ can be found here:

http://thefairytalegames.com/faqs/

And just so you get an idea, the covered questions are as follows:
-WHO IS ARTISTIC JUSTICE?
-WHO IS ALEXANDER LIM?
-WHY ARE THE MARTIAL ARTS GAME AND THE FAIRYTALE GAMES UNDER DIFFERENT ACCOUNTS ON KICKSTARTER?
-WAS THERE OR IS THERE ANY INTENTION OF HIDING THE DIFFERENT IDENTITIES? IS THERE A REASON FOR SO MANY FACEBOOK ACCOUNTS?
-BUT I DON’T GET WHY ALL THE CAMPAIGNS HAPPEN SO CLOSE TO EACH OTHER!
-YOU TOOK A HUGE LOSS IN THE FIRST FAIRYTALE GAMES CAMPAIGN. WHY WOULD ANYONE DO THAT?
-OK SO YOU PURPOSELY TOOK A LOSS ON YOUR FIRST FAIRYTALE GAMES CAMPAIGN. WHO IS YOUR INVESTOR AND HOW CAN YOU NOT GO BANKRUPT?!?

Sorry for the caps. Just doing a direct copy-paste.

New update. I probably won't update from now on unless there are some major things to report on, or unless anyone wants me to keep updating. Raise your voice if that's the case.

A new WIP section has been added to the Minis tab on the webpage, found here:
http://thefairytalegames.com/minis/work-in-progress-wip-sculpts/

New WIPs:







A new update also showed off some test 3D prints. These prints were basically for scaling and not even close to production quality.





I would take that Beast and Jabberwock off their hands right now. They would look good as-is with some paint on them!

Yes.

Still no card game.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1396565454/a-card-game-to-beat-your-friends-senseless/posts

They are sending "Thier art" to yet another game, with more cross polination funding. Still looks like a pipe dream to me.

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/johnwrot/the-kings-armory-the-tower-defense-board-game-0/posts/671059


Alot of promises coming out of that camp. Hope they can deliver at least one or two of them.

And... Pretty Quiet on the webpage front. That happens when you have so many irons in the preverbial fire.

http://martialartstcg.wordpress.com/

Who's this? Is this a coincidence?

http://www.artisticjustice.com/Home.html

http://www.artisticjustice.com/Contact.html