BattleCapIronblood wrote: I don't have my rulebook on hand, but do you mind explaining what's different here?
Well basically I changed the following:
- Most astartes chapters are no longer "open" to relations with xenos, but ally themselves with them only as desperate allies. They spout bucketloads of xenophobic quotations all throughout the background and thus, should also be unwilling to ally with eldar, tau etc.
- Dark Eldar are out of the question for Astartes, Inquisition and Tau, as these pirates and slavers are the worst of all xenos in the eyes of the space marines and irredeemable for the greater good.
- The Tau will never ally themselves with demonic entities of the warp, although if desperate measures call it they will fight alongside chaos space marines whom they still consider humans.
- Templars and Sisters are fervently devout to the Emperor, and make for battle brothers. The Templars, known for their zealotry, are also less suspicious in the eyes of the Grey Knights than those chapters that have their own homeworld and their own microcosmos to rule.
- Being agents of the Emperor/Imperium, Grey Knights and Sisters are battle brothers too.
- Sisters arent as mistrusting of other space marine chapters as the grey knights are, and are thus battle brothers with all of them.
- Due to the long and bloody history of the Nimbosa Crusade, Black Templars hate the Tau Empire and want to see them eradicated.
- Sisters and Black Templars abhor witches. As such, they despise both Eldar and their dark kin.
- The Dark Eldar may be evil, but they fear the warp just like the Eldar. As such, they will not ally themselves with daemons from the empyrean, but are willing to be desperate allies with chaos space marines when going on raids.
- You will not see the Sons of Fenris ally themselves with greenskins or undead robots.
Nice work. I like how you made the gks allying with another faction more sensible. BT and SOB battle bros, awesome. Sadly it wont ever be used, but its fun to look at and wish that was not the case.
I'll keep my personal feedback/suggestions limited to the Sisters of Battle:
- change BA to Allies of Convenience (negative rumours regarding their geneseed corruption, see this message)
- change DA to Allies of Convenience (secrecy and unreliability especially concerning Inquisitorial investigations; they're known to occasionally just leave an ongoing battle)
- change Necrons to Come the Apocalypse (filthy Xenos, Imperial Creed, Massacre of Sanctuary 101)
- change Space Marines to Allies of Convenience (abhumans who deny the Emperor's divinity)*
- change Space Wolves to Desperate Allies (heresy and geneseed corruption, murder of Ecclesiarchy delegation, SoB punitive expedition to Fenris)
- change Tau to Come the Apocalypse (filty Xenos, Imperial Creed)
*Note: I'm rather unsure about Space Marines as AoC as this encompasses a whole range of Chapters and the SoB are quite okay with a lot of them. I just think their special relationship with the BT deserves to stand out, which would necessitate nudging all other SM Chapters down a bit.
Soteks Prophet wrote: Tyranids should be able to ally with imperial guard - desperate allies - a la cult support.
Problem is, it is hard to implement that on the tabletop as the Tyranid codex doesnt have Cult leaders as HQ and if you could ally yourself with nids, there'd technically be nothing stopping you from taking Carnifexes, gaunts and such. Also, I could hardly imagine Cult stealers fighting alongside IG battle tanks and such...nid cults usually only work on planets as long as they are not detected and even if the planet is doomed, the local IG usually goes down fighting against them.
Far as I can tell, the allies chart is meant to represent the highest tier of possibility, even if it's remote. This is why you have things like marines being battle brothers with the Tau. Sure, the majority of the time, they're killing the Tau. However, it is possible for the two to team up on a battle brothers level where they even squad up with each other, because they actually DID do this in a fluff story once.
Therefore, what the allies chart is meant to say is that, "Under the "best" of circumstances, Marines can ally with Tau on a Battle Brothers level", not "Marines are always battle brothers with the Tau!"
...unfortunately, if that assumption is true (and it seems to be the case for most factions), whoever whipped the thing up wasn't paying much attention to SoB fluff, apparently. They too were stated to fight "side by side" (which is something only battle brothers allies really can do) with various space marines at various points.
Soteks Prophet wrote: Tyranids should be able to ally with imperial guard - desperate allies - a la cult support.
The reason they are not is because cults don't fight with the hive fleet. They will cause mayhem weakening the planet, but as soon as the fleet arrives anything not pure stealer by that point will offer itself as genetic and intelligence material to be processed in to something more useful.
Stealer cults do not fight along side nid forces as far as I know.
And, yes, the chart represents the best possible outcome. Sisters may hate xeno, but if faced with a chaos incursion or Ork warband and there happen to be Tau attacking them they will ignore each other. However, they would never ever join a bunch of deamons to fight anything.
I don't see why Dark eldar and Tau would not be able to be allies.....
They are allies in the fluff with the ethereals sacrificing thousands of Tau to the dark eldar (to be used genetic experiments/creation of fighting machines) - the dark eldar do betray the Tau..... but if the dark eldar were truly threatened by a common foe, they would uphold there end of the bargain.
Dark Eldar and Eldar should be Battle Brothers, they have allied many times in the fluff more often then they have fought. People don't really understand the relationship between the two. Its the kind of relationship you have with your weird cousin who lives in his dark basement watching Baywatch all day and your really want to avoid. They have different ideals, they don't hate each other, they just don't like each others choices. Who would you rather ally with, a weird Human Murderer who you can convince not to murder you as long as he can Murderer some Monkeys (as I said, weird...) or a Baboon who is as likely to rip your face off as who you tell it to?
Edit. Dark eldar and Necrons? Really? What fluff are you reading
I'd prefer an allies chart that was completely or near-completely open with slight bonuses for armies that can't ally with some factions.(Black Templars can't ally with psykers, gain adamantium will)
To me it makes more sense to allow potentially non-fluffy armies than to disallow potentially fluffy armies.
TiamatRoar wrote: Far as I can tell, the allies chart is meant to represent the highest tier of possibility, even if it's remote.
Yep that was my understanding too. Sucks that CSM and IG aren't battle brothers though since CSM and renegade guard work together a lot.
Yea, people hate on the official allies chart saying that "These guys hate those guys! They should not be battle brothers or allies of convenience!" without noticing that in the fluff, these examples actually HAVE happened. If anything, the biggest failing of the allies chart is that it didn't consider the occurrences of two factions allying in the fluff ENOUGH. Imperial Guard, if truly meant to represent Renegade Guard (and all indicates are that they are) should be battle brothers with chaos marines and maybe even chaos demons (considering that such renegade guard would worship those daemons). And as I mentioned before, SoB really should be Battle Brothers with the marines since they actually have been that way in the fluff.
(although it is somewhat notable that the renegade armies from Forge World for Siege of Vraks ally the same way that CSM do, which means they are Battle Brothers with both CSM and Daemons, so at least Forge World took that into consideration. It'd be kinda silly if they didn't, though, considering those army lists include some CSM units)
The reason why the allies chart needs to take into consideration the "best" possible circumstances is in part so you can replicate fluff battles, I think. After all, if Marines and Tau were just AoC at best, you'd never be able to replicate the time they actually DID squad together. And that'd be dumb. Why should the fluff be allowed to have alliances that you, the player (and the one that's in charge of whatever story you're creating at the time) can not? I think GW had this in mind when they made the AoC chart.
On a tangential note, some elder do hate or revile dark elder. Again, though, AoC represents the "best" of situations, so as long as other elder can work with dark elder on a battle brothers level (something which happened even before the allies chart with Harlequins and Elder Corsair armies), the allies chart should have them as battle brothers for times when you the player wish to replicate that.
As an aside, the "worst" tier of ally relations in the alliance chart isn't "never ally". It's "come the apocalypse". GW actually stated that this is literal. IE, in apocalypse settings, you're allowed to ally anyone with ANYONE (including Tyrannids, though good luck figuring out a narrative for that). That's because "apocalypse" is meant to be able to represent the most LUDICROUS of situations, presumably down to including things like "This entire subsector is going to implode on itself leaving a big gaping hole in both the chaos gods' and the emperor's metaphorical foreheads if these Space Marines don't ally with these Chaos Space Marines".
BattleCapIronblood wrote: I don't have my rulebook on hand, but do you mind explaining what's different here?
Well basically I changed the following:
- Most astartes chapters are no longer "open" to relations with xenos, but ally themselves with them only as desperate allies. They spout bucketloads of xenophobic quotations all throughout the background and thus, should also be unwilling to ally with eldar, tau etc.
- Dark Eldar are out of the question for Astartes, Inquisition and Tau, as these pirates and slavers are the worst of all xenos in the eyes of the space marines and irredeemable for the greater good.
- The Tau will never ally themselves with demonic entities of the warp, although if desperate measures call it they will fight alongside chaos space marines whom they still consider humans.
- Templars and Sisters are fervently devout to the Emperor, and make for battle brothers. The Templars, known for their zealotry, are also less suspicious in the eyes of the Grey Knights than those chapters that have their own homeworld and their own microcosmos to rule.
- Being agents of the Emperor/Imperium, Grey Knights and Sisters are battle brothers too.
- Sisters arent as mistrusting of other space marine chapters as the grey knights are, and are thus battle brothers with all of them.
- Due to the long and bloody history of the Nimbosa Crusade, Black Templars hate the Tau Empire and want to see them eradicated.
- Sisters and Black Templars abhor witches. As such, they despise both Eldar and their dark kin.
- The Dark Eldar may be evil, but they fear the warp just like the Eldar. As such, they will not ally themselves with daemons from the empyrean, but are willing to be desperate allies with chaos space marines when going on raids.
- You will not see the Sons of Fenris ally themselves with greenskins or undead robots.
What about the fluff in the DE codex of DE allying with Tau. They also ally with space marines. while they might be evil, they are master manipulators, can easily pass themselves off as slightly trust worthy if it is in their interest. Similarly even if the Astartes did suspect how creepy their DE allies might be, they still would happily work with them to subdue a rebellion or fight CSM or Daemons. Hey there is a mindless Waaagh or Tyranid fleet heading our way and the only way to stop them is to temporarily ally with these S&M freaks. Seems about right.
Why arent IG and CSM battlebrothers. This is the most glaring fluff oversight of the current chart and you leave it out. Chaos has huge reserves of traitor guard and additional entire regiments go traitor every day. Alpha Legion make extensive use of regular human soldiers
DE and Eldar should be battle brothers(as they are in the current allies chart). Despite their misgivings about each other, they would rather ally with each other than any non eldar race.
So basically you have taken some high and mighty, good boys, idealistic approach to this. The IoM is a mess, they might have high morals and good intentions but often they are spread thin(really thin). When the options are allying with Xenos or allowing a dozen worlds to fall to the ruinous powers most of the IoM will choose the Xenos. Im not sure battlebrothers is right, but certainly allies of convience. The space marines are not going to betray tau or eldar fighting with them, they have honor and arbor treachery.
Well my understanding for Dark Angels and Space Wolf relationships has always been that its more of a friendly rivalry, more stable and friendly than lets say tau SM alliances, but thats just my craziness speaking
I think Tyranids should be capable of being desperate allies with Tau/Eldar/Necrons.
I don't claim to be the biggest 40k lore buff, but I would assume that if the Tyranids were attacking the mutual enemy of one of the more crafty factions, said faction might be capable of lending support to the Tyranids as long as they managed to stay under the Hive Mind's "radar".
This might be even simpler for the Necrons (allies of convenience might be plausible) as the Tyranids would have nothing to gain from attacking the Necron units as long as they stayed out of the Tyranids' way.
Blackhair Duckshape wrote: I think Tyranids should be capable of being desperate allies with Tau/Eldar/Necrons.
I don't claim to be the biggest 40k lore buff, but I would assume that if the Tyranids were attacking the mutual enemy of one of the more crafty factions, said faction might be capable of lending support to the Tyranids as long as they managed to stay under the Hive Mind's "radar".
This might be even simpler for the Necrons (allies of convenience might be plausible) as the Tyranids would have nothing to gain from attacking the Necron units as long as they stayed out of the Tyranids' way.
The thing is, how would they stay under the hive mind's radar if they're there on the battlefield in the first place? Tyrannids pretty much attack anything that moves (and there has NEVER been a fluff case where they haven't, really), so just the fact that you're there on the same battleground as them makes you their target. What are you going to do if you're in the same battleground as the tyrannids yet one of your other enemies are there and you want the tyrannids to go after them instead of you? You can't negotiate with the tyrannids (never EVER in any fluff case have they ever communicated with anyone at all, whatsoever), so your only hope is to HIDE. At that point, hiding from another force so they don't see you and instead go after the other guy isn't even "Desperate Allies" level.
Trying to ally with a tyranid is like trying to ally with an NPC monster in an MMORPG that's programmed to attack you as soon as you step within its radius of awareness, no animal taming skills allowed. You have a better chance of negotiating with and allying with a rabid dog than you do a tyranid.
Blackhair Duckshape wrote: I think Tyranids should be capable of being desperate allies with Tau/Eldar/Necrons.
I don't claim to be the biggest 40k lore buff, but I would assume that if the Tyranids were attacking the mutual enemy of one of the more crafty factions, said faction might be capable of lending support to the Tyranids as long as they managed to stay under the Hive Mind's "radar".
This might be even simpler for the Necrons (allies of convenience might be plausible) as the Tyranids would have nothing to gain from attacking the Necron units as long as they stayed out of the Tyranids' way.
The thing is, how would they stay under the hive mind's radar if they're there on the battlefield in the first place? Tyrannids pretty much attack anything that moves (and there has NEVER been a fluff case where they haven't, really), so just the fact that you're there on the same battleground as them makes you their target. What are you going to do if you're in the same battleground as the tyrannids yet one of your other enemies are there and you want the tyrannids to go after them instead of you? You can't negotiate with the tyrannids (never EVER in any fluff case have they ever communicated with anyone at all, whatsoever), so your only hope is to HIDE. At that point, hiding from another force so they don't see you and instead go after the other guy isn't even "Desperate Allies" level.
Trying to ally with a tyranid is like trying to ally with an NPC monster in an MMORPG that's programmed to attack you as soon as you step within its radius of awareness, no animal taming skills allowed. You have a better chance of negotiating with and allying with a rabid dog than you do a tyranid.
I figured that the Tyranids might choose to first neutralise the force that is actively trying to kill them (which kind of works with your MMO analogy as some games have threat tables).
I think a proper allies chart would shift depending on who the Primary Detachment is.
For example, Dark Eldar primary should be able to bring in an allied detachment of Nids. This would represent captured Nid beasts; where as Nid Primary could not bring Dark Eldar. However, Nid primary could bring in Guard as an allied detachment to represent in Genestealer cults, but IG Primary could not bring in Nids.
Blackhair Duckshape wrote: I figured that the Tyranids might choose to first neutralise the force that is actively trying to kill them (which kind of works with your MMO analogy as some games have threat tables).
I imagine the tyranids would probably multi-task things, if there's more than one. Not shooting a tyranid probably wouldn't stop the others from going after you even as the first set are going after a bunch of guys shooting at them.
That said, does it really count as Desperate Allies level if your "ally" is 100% guaranteed to attack you the instant there's nothing else in range, before the battle is even over? At least on the table top, those Dark Eldar fighting the same foe as those Chaos Space Marines without shooting each other, even if keeping "one eye open", sounds plausible. A bunch of tyranids and whoever focusing until the enemy army is dead without the tyrannids ever stopping to take a bite out of their "allies" whatsoever before the game ends just seems bizarre, as does one player controlling them. At least when controlling most desperate allies, you can kinda envision these two forces of sentient beings coordinating their tactics as one player controls both of them. But one player controlling both Imperial Guard (or whatever else) and Tyrannids, coordinating the two to strategically attack an opponent together, is just WIERD and nothing like that ever happened or ever will happen in the fluff (again, basic communication would be impossible, even, unlike other desperate allies where they can at least scream at each other, "You go over there while I go over here").
Automatically Appended Next Post:
anonymou5 wrote: I think a proper allies chart would shift depending on who the Primary Detachment is.
For example, Dark Eldar primary should be able to bring in an allied detachment of Nids. This would represent captured Nid beasts; where as Nid Primary could not bring Dark Eldar. However, Nid primary could bring in Guard as an allied detachment to represent in Genestealer cults, but IG Primary could not bring in Nids.
While it's true that various factions have utilized captured nids, it's only been individual specimens. I don't think any have ever managed to capture and control an amount large enough to make up an allied attachment to my knowledge. I'm not sure if multiple captured nids could even be coordinated together, unlike solitary specimens.
Blackhair Duckshape wrote: I figured that the Tyranids might choose to first neutralise the force that is actively trying to kill them (which kind of works with your MMO analogy as some games have threat tables).
I imagine the tyranids would probably multi-task things, if there's more than one. Not shooting a tyranid probably wouldn't stop the others from going after you even as the first set are going after a bunch of guys shooting at them.
That said, does it really count as Desperate Allies level if your "ally" is 100% guaranteed to attack you the instant there's nothing else in range, before the battle is even over? At least on the table top, those Dark Eldar fighting the same foe as those Chaos Space Marines without shooting each other, even if keeping "one eye open", sounds plausible. A bunch of tyranids and whoever focusing until the enemy army is dead without the tyrannids ever stopping to take a bite out of their "allies" whatsoever before the game ends just seems bizarre, as does one player controlling them. At least when controlling most desperate allies, you can kinda envision these two forces of sentient beings coordinating their tactics as one player controls both of them. But one player controlling both Imperial Guard (or whatever else) and Tyrannids, coordinating the two to strategically attack an opponent together, is just WIERD and nothing like that ever happened or ever will happen in the fluff (again, basic communication would be impossible, even, unlike other desperate allies where they can at least scream at each other, "You go over there while I go over here").
I picture it happening more along the lines of a small detachment going "it looks like those Hormagaunts are going to charge those Havoks, let's snipe that intercepting squad of Berserkers so they make it."
I'm mostly with Lynata on the Sisters options (and I defer to her on canon in general), but the "allies chart represents best possible relations" and "Space Marines are really diverse" -- it's not just the Black Templars who worship the Emperor as God, I recall -- persuade me that "Space Marines" generically maybe should be Battle Brothers with Sisters.
Err, you know what I mean, GW's highly gendered use of language makes it difficult to talk about female personnel...
SisterSydney wrote:it's not just the Black Templars who worship the Emperor as God, I recall -- persuade me that "Space Marines" generically maybe should be Battle Brothers with Sisters.
Yeah, I'm not entirely sure myself - it's just that ... I guess I find it a bit "sad" if the special relationship between SoB and BT would get lost by basically declaring it "equal" to, say, how they view the Ultras or the White Scars.
Let's just say this is an area where I'd certainly be willing to compromise, depending on how liberal we want the Matrix to be. Making them BB with SM could make Sisters more attractive as an Allies choice for Marine players. Hypothetically speaking, of course.
SisterSydney wrote:Err, you know what I mean, GW's highly gendered use of language makes it difficult to talk about female personnel...
Generic SM and Black Templars should both be battle-brothers with Sisters of Battle. Blood Angels, Space Wolves and Dark Angels should be desperate allies.
Desperate Allies implies you distrust your allies so much that you're worried they'll shoot you right in the middle of battle at any single moment (hence "One Eye Open" rule). I don't think SoB's relations with wolves and angels are THAT bad.
TiamatRoar wrote:Desperate Allies implies you distrust your allies so much that you're worried they'll shoot you right in the middle of battle at any single moment (hence "One Eye Open" rule). I don't think SoB's relations with wolves and angels are THAT bad.
Last time the Sisters saw the Wolves, they did shoot at each other.
To the Sororitas, the Space Wolves a bunch of mutant heretics who murdered a priestly delegation in cold blood. I think a rather high amount of distrust would be understandable.
Likewise, the Wolves are well within their right to assume the Sisters would attack them, given that this is precisely what they did at Fenris, and that the SoB regard it as their mandate to purge heretical elements from the Imperial forces.
I do agree about the Blood Angels and Dark Angels, though.
The Space Wolves have opened fire on an Ecclesiarchy fleet, fought and ran off three orders of Sororitas who invaded afterwards, have beheaded a Grey Knights Supreme Grandmaster, and have beheaded an Inquisitor Lord.
edit- I threw the Blood Angels in there because the Flesh Tearers have literally murdered Sisters of Battle in insane rages.
BlaxicanX wrote: Negative. There is a short story written by ADB where Sisters get slaughtered by Flesh Tearerers.
Hmm. According to the Lexicanum article on that book, Bowden writes the Sisters killing the Flesh Tearer to avenge their Sisters that the Flesh Tearers killed at Gaius point. But in the studio fluff, they withdraw from Gaius before the Flesh Tearers reach them.
If that's the case, I'll go with the studio fluff over the BL stuff, as usual.
Oh, there's also the Sisters killed by Brother Jarl, but that seems to take place in a different location.
Uh, what? I like 4chan, post on /tg/ all the time. The "sisters snuff" section of that SoB 1d4chan article just used to have a lot of inaccuracies, and was a source of a few misconceptions about SoB fluff.
BlaxicanX wrote: Negative. There is a short story written by ADB where Sisters get slaughtered by Flesh Tearerers.
Hmm. According to the Lexicanum article on that book, Bowden writes the Sisters killing the Flesh Tearer to avenge their Sisters that the Flesh Tearers killed at Gaius point. But in the studio fluff, they withdraw from Gaius before the Flesh Tearers reach them.
If that's the case, I'll go with the studio fluff over the BL stuff, as usual.
Oh, there's also the Sisters killed by Brother Jarl, but that seems to take place in a different location.
Uh, what? I like 4chan, post on /tg/ all the time. The "sisters snuff" section of that SoB 1d4chan article just used to have a lot of inaccuracies, and was a source of a few misconceptions about SoB fluff.
Your reflex when seeing a statement about Sisters being killed by Flesh Tearers is to hate 4Chan. That's just lulzy.
Anyway, yes. Sisters have been killed by Flesh Tearers before.
Sisters of Battle and Imperial Guard have killed each other on numerous occassions too, as have everyone (and I mean EVERYONE vs EVERYONE. ...well, I haven't seen a fluff case of SoB vs SoB yet but I'm sure it's happened in this giant galaxy). The allies chart is (probably) supposed to represent the BEST circumstances. If Imperial Guard can be allies of convenience with the Orks under good circumstances, I'm sure SoB can be allies of convenience with Space Wolves and Blood Angels under good ones, too. Because it's a stupid day when Imperial Guard are able to rely on orks they hired not shooting them, while SoB and Space Wolves that belong to the same organization are literally looking over their back in the middle of a battle against chaos worried that they'll shoot each other.
Troike wrote:Hmm. According to the Lexicanum article on that book, Bowden writes the Sisters killing the Flesh Tearer to avenge their Sisters that the Flesh Tearers killed at Gaius point. But in the studio fluff, they withdraw from Gaius before the Flesh Tearers reach them.
From what I know, the story takes place at another time and concerns just a few individual Fleshtearers and Sisters. I think it happens before the Gaius Point Massacre.
Still, I don't see why Black Library contents must necessarily seep into core studio fluff and rules. Until such details are reflected in Codex fluff records, they have obviously not been adopted by the Codex writers.
BlaxicanX wrote:Your reflex when seeing a statement about Sisters being killed by Flesh Tearers is to hate 4Chan. That's just lulzy.
What? Troike is a "fa/tg/uy" as well and an editor on 1d4chan. The statement "the old page sucked because it contained misinformation" is not equal to "4chan sucks".
BlaxicanX wrote:Anyway, yes. Sisters have been killed by Flesh Tearers before.
TiamatRoar wrote: I'm sure SoB can be allies of convenience with Space Wolves
I dunno, I still see a strong case for them being desperate allies. That past conflict aside, their mindsets are just so different. The Sisters are one of the most disciplined, orthodox forces in the Imperium, while the Space Wolves are notoriously rowdy and maverick. A relationship between the two would certainly be strained.
But then, from a tactical viewpoint at least, it is a nice pairing.
BlaxicanX wrote: Your reflex when seeing a statement about Sisters being killed by Flesh Tearers is to hate 4Chan. That's just lulzy.
I didn't know about that novel before, so I assumed you were referring to the Gaius point incident, which the 1d4chan article has misinformed people about in the past.
And again, 1d4chan and 4chan are not the same thing, and I like both. All I did was criticise a single section in one 1d4chan article, bud.
Again, desperate allies imply they're constantly looking over their shoulder worried the other guy will shoot them. While this might be the case with SoB and Space Wolves SOMETIMES, does everyone here really think they'd be that way at best for EVERY BATTLE?? If SoB were teamed up with Space Wolves against a horde of chaos marines during one of Abaddon's black crusades, do they really think the SoB and Space Wolves would be distrusting each other so much in that situation?
In the current Allies matrix, no Imperium force is worse than Allies of Convenience with any other, and given the logic of "allies matrix should represent the best plausible case," I don't think you should ever go down to Desperate Allies, not even between Sisters/Ecclesiarchy & Adeptus Mechanicus (which would be fandex-only at this point, not that it makes sense to me GW never wrote them up, just think of an entire army of grimdark freakish body-horror skull-face cyborgs).
Hmm. Like Lynata, I'm very torn on generic Space Marines. Ultramarines and their Codex Astartes-compliant descendants & allies should not get Battle Brothers status with the Sororitas though, nor should any of the chapters given Chapter Tactics in the 6th edition Codex, so I think that generic Marines should stay Allies of Convenience and Emperor-worshipping variants should need some kind of special exception....
[EDIT: To clarify, being Codex-compliant means, by definition, that you don't worship the Emperor as God. So while you could build your custom chapter out of C:SM 6th and say they worship the Emperor, you'd have a lot of trouble convincing the Sisters they weren't faking it, as opposed to the Black Templars having a hardcore track record that the Sisters know and trust].
I didn't know about that novel before, so I assumed you were referring to the Gaius point incident, which the 1d4chan article has misinformed people about in the past.
And again, 1d4chan and 4chan are not the same thing, and I like both. All I did was criticise a single section in one 1d4chan article, bud.
Okay. I'm just wondering why you hate 4Chan so much.
TiamatRoar wrote: Again, desperate allies imply they're constantly looking over their shoulder worried the other guy will shoot them. While this might be the case with SoB and Space Wolves SOMETIMES, does everyone here really think they'd be that way at best for EVERY BATTLE?? If SoB were teamed up with Space Wolves against a horde of chaos marines during one of Abaddon's black crusades, do they really think the SoB and Space Wolves would be distrusting each other so much in that situation?
So in your mind two factions that have literally been at war with one another and have literally blown up entire armies belonging to one another isn't a cause for the two factions hating each other's guts? The SoB and the Inquisition/Ecclesiarchy literally consider the Space Wolves to basically be heretics.
TiamatRoar wrote: If SoB were teamed up with Space Wolves against a horde of chaos marines during one of Abaddon's black crusades, do they really think the SoB and Space Wolves would be distrusting each other so much in that situation?
Probably not in that situation, but it could easily be applied for a less dramatic situation, like fighting against IG (for whatever reason) or even just a minor Chaos incursion. I just think it's better to think of the allies matrix in a more neutral fashion. Not "how well do they team up in really dire circumstances" but "how well do they team up in general". And in general, there's going to be considerable friction between them.
I'm not necessarily opposed to them being allies of convinience, mind you. I wouldn't protest against it or anything, it's certainly not the most unbelievable thing on the chart. I can just see a strong case for them being desperate allies.
BlaxicanX wrote:Not in studio fluff?!!! Oh meh gawd!
Some people think that 40k the tabletop is better off that way. No need to get childish about a difference in personal preferences.
SisterSydney wrote:In the current Allies matrix, no Imperium force is worse than Allies of Convenience with any other [...]
Ironically, SoB and Black Templars are Desperate Allies in the matrix as originally published. Whatever the writer thought, the precedent was there.
I think the "expect them to turn on you" would describe the situation quite well. The Space Wolves might be forgiving of the Sisters' attitude, but the Sororitas themselves just strike me as way too zealous and narrowminded to just forget about the past, especially given that Sisters are more or less the least tolerant of all Imperial armies you could field.
The Space Wolves opened fire on the Ecclesiarchy before. Why should the Ecclesiarchy believe it wouldn't happen again? Even the Mechanicus didn't got that far. With the AdMech, all you have is "just" a difference of religious interpretation and rejection of the Ecclesiarchy's authority. With the Space Wolves, you have all that plus genetic mutation and violent clashes. It's pretty much the worst combination of Imperial "allies" you could field, and I feel it would be odd or even wrong to set such an extreme relationship to the same level (Allies of Convenience) as how the Sisters would think about the Blood or the Dark Angels.
Ultimately, I'd like such details as an army's history and general theme to reflect in the Allies matrix, and the Space Wolves' "eff you" attitude and their flagrant disregard of Imperial authorities or even the most basic rules of cooperation should have consequences.
It would probably be easier if the Allies rules would have more levels than just 4, but the way things are, someone who is less easy to work with than a Battle Brother must be an Ally of Convenience, and someone who is even less easy to work with must be a Desperate Ally. No other way around it - unless we think the Space Wolves are no worse than the Blood Angels or the Dark Angels.
TiamatRoar wrote: If SoB were teamed up with Space Wolves against a horde of chaos marines during one of Abaddon's black crusades, do they really think the SoB and Space Wolves would be distrusting each other so much in that situation?
Probably not in that situation, but it could easily be applied for a less dramatic situation, like fighting against IG (for whatever reason) or even just a minor Chaos incursion. I just think it's better to think of the allies matrix in a more neutral fashion. Not "how well do they team up in really dire circumstances" but "how well do they team up in general". And in general, there's going to be considerable friction between them.
I'm not necessarily opposed to them being allies of convinience, mind you. I wouldn't protest against it or anything, it's certainly not the most unbelievable thing on the chart. I can just see a strong case for them being desperate allies.
If the allies matrix is to be thought of as a "neutral" fashion, then how the heck are Orks and untrustworthy fickle Eldar allies of convenience with the guard? And then there's the blatant Marine Tau battle brothers case. The fact that, as pointed out, SoB are allies of convenience with all other Imperial Organizations at worse also implies "best case" scenario as well.
if you wish to have an allies matrix that goes against this spirit, then that's fine. The official allies matrix currently there however is obviously NOT this case. The only major exceptions to the "best situation" idea are the SoB and normal Space marines, and Chaos Marines with the Imperial Guard (which honestly makes no sense even under "neutral" conditions. Since when do Chaos Marines ally with guard, renegade or otherwise, under neutral cases?)
TiamatRoar wrote: If the allies matrix is to be thought of as a "neutral" fashion, then how the heck are Orks and Eldar allies of convenience with the guard?
I did note that it wasn't perfect. I guess GW would explain that as those armies being willing to put aside their differences? If only temporarily.
TiamatRoar wrote: The fact that, as pointed out, SoB are allies of convenience with all other Imperial Organizations at worse also implies "best case" scenario as well.
Not necessarily, just a normal case scenario. The Sisters would be willing to fight alongside loyal Marines and IG, and have done so in the fluff. They'd be uneasy with the Marines, as noted, but not outright wary of them.
TiamatRoar wrote: and Chaos Marines with the Imperial Guard (which honestly makes no sense even under "neutral" conditions. Since when do Chaos Marines ally with guard, renegade or otherwise, under neutral cases?)
I'd view these as something of an exception, though, since they're likely there to represent a force of traitor guard. And why wouldn't traitor Marines ally with traitor guard? They both hate the Imperium, both worship Chaos, it seems like a natural alliance.
TiamatRoar wrote: If the allies matrix is to be thought of as a "neutral" fashion, then how the heck are Orks and Eldar allies of convenience with the guard?
I did note that it wasn't perfect. I guess GW would explain that as those armies being willing to put aside their differences? If only temporarily.
IE, best conditions.
Not necessarily, just a normal case scenario. The Sisters would be willing to fight alongside loyal Marines and IG, and have done so in the fluff. They'd be uneasy with the Marines, as noted, but not outright wary of them.
Precisely. Hence why Desperate Allies ALL the time with any of them would be wrong.
I'd view these as something of an exception, though, since they're likely there to represent a force of traitor guard. And why wouldn't traitor Marines ally with traitor guard? They both hate the Imperium, both worship Chaos, it seems like a natural alliance.
I meant it makes no sense for chaos marines to ally with guard under neutral cases instead of battle brother cases. If Chaos Marines ally with guardsmen, you can bet your ass that they'd do so in a way where those guardsmen are absolutely ENSLAVED by those Chaos Marines, and thus battle brothers. The idea that Chaos Marines would ever ally with traitor guard under an "ally of convenience" alliance is crazy, IMHO. Chaos Marines would forcefully take charge, not treat those guards as distant partners. They'd ally with them squad them, use them as expendable meat shields. blast them with their own psychic powers, whatever, and the renegade guard wouldn't refuse it if they valued their lives. ....Battle Brothers status for all the wrong reasons, but still battle brothers status. At least, a lot more often than Allies of Convenience.
Dakkamite wrote: Oh look, another allies chart that gaks on Orks.
When you think about it, Orks should be AoC with pretty much everyone.
Ork mercenaries for everyone! Orkz is for fightin' an' winnin' an' we don' care who we fights fer 's long az dere's fightin'! 'Ere we go, 'ere we go!
(There's even an example in the book of Ork mercs working with both Imperial Guard and Chaos, and you can't imagine Eldar of either variety wouldn't stoop to manipulating the Greenskins to do their dirty work...).
Dakkamite wrote: Oh look, another allies chart that gaks on Orks.
When you think about it, Orks should be AoC with pretty much everyone.
Yea, as crazy and rambunctious as Orks are, they've so far actually ended up being kinda reliable as mercenaries, at least to those that knew how to negotiate, deal with, and pay them correctly (Blood Axes only, of course). Orks are single-minded enough that anyone suave enough to know how to deal with and negotiate with them can actually rely on them as mercenaries (Blood Axe clan, obvously. Again, assuming you know how to work with them correctly. For one thing, it's probably a good idea to arrange the deal so it's in the Ork's best interests to not think about betraying you until AFTER you've paid them AFTER the battle). Although not exactly spotlighted, there's more than enough fluff examples of this.
SisterSydney wrote:In the current Allies matrix, no Imperium force is worse than Allies of Convenience with any other [...]
Ironically, SoB and Black Templars are Desperate Allies in the matrix as originally published. Whatever the writer thought, the precedent was there..
D'oh. I've so thoroughly overwritten that in my headcanon & homeruling that I forgot it was still the rules as written.
That one especially makes no sense, although hopefully it's been retconned/fixed with the 6th Edition Codex anyways (because the fluff in 6th Ed Space Marines sure as hell sounds like it). If it has been fixed (debatable, I know), then you can hypothetically chalk this one up to a momentary brain fart where GW eventually said "Doh, we goofed. Forget about that one. They're allies of convenience now."
TiamatRoar wrote: .... as crazy and rambunctious as Orks are, they've so far actually ended up being kinda reliable as mercenaries, at least to those that knew how to negotiate, deal with, and pay them correctly (Blood Axes only, of course).
I kind of envision the Orks' attitude to mercenary work, much like their attitude towards everything else, as kind of "genocidal interplanetary pub crawl":
ORK MERC: You wants us to shoot dem pansies?
IG GENERAL: Well, ah, yes, good fellow, they rather do seem to be raiding our planet, can't have that, you know, Imperial territory, what what?
ORK MERC: We loves fightin' pansies!
IG GENERAL: Oh, well that's awfully white of you to....
ORK MERC: They squish so good! Taste da rainbow!
IG GENERAL: Matter of fact, old chap, these ones wear black for some reason, never can sort those wogs out....
ORK MERC: Iz gunna be such a good fight! We loves fightin' pansies!
IG GENERAL: Yes, old boy, you rather did mention that alr...
ORK MERC: We loves you! Youse da bestest boss!
[Enormous and prolonged Ork hug]
IG GENERAL (muffled): Excuse me, my dear fellow, I rather can't breathe.....
Technically, if you're talking Orks as mercs, you could just as well field IG as mercs, cultists, or pirates...
Depending on your concept, it's a bit of a long shot, but it is why I'm thinking that the Allies rules perhaps should not have a fixed matrix but rather adopt an "anything goes" approach, under the condition that the player needs to come up with a good explanation.
For example ... IG+Tyranids? Duh, Genestealer infiltration!
BlaxicanX wrote:You're very defensive. Why?
I just don't think that excessive use of punctuation marks, attempts to goad other posters, and blatantly ignoring statements such as other posters' repeated opinion of 4chan makes for a healthy atmosphere in a debate, 's all.
In other words, why should I not be defensive when you are aggressive?
SisterSydney wrote:D'oh. I've so thoroughly overwritten that in my headcanon & homeruling that I forgot it was still the rules as written.
Well, depending on your opinion regarding the Black Templars' inclusion into C:SM.
Has this been FAQ'd in the meantime, by the way?
Lynata wrote: Technically, if you're talking Orks as mercs, you could just as well field IG as mercs, cultists, or pirates...
Depending on your concept, it's a bit of a long shot, but it is why I'm thinking that the Allies rules perhaps should not have a fixed matrix but rather adopt an "anything goes" approach, under the condition that the player needs to come up with a good explanation.
Well, the current allies matrix allows for this. In fact, I'm pretty sure various GW sources have mentioned IG regiments that have gone mercenary before. Really, if Space Marines can go merc (for a time, before the Imperium catches up to them), I'm sure IG do too every once in a while. Although even non-IG perhaps get their hands on such things. Heck, many chaos renegade IG are probably basically just mercs, too.
For example ... IG+Tyranids? Duh, Genestealer infiltration!
I think one issue with this is that Tyranids eat gene stealer cults too. I'm not aware of any fluff situation where tyrannids have ever fought alongside anything but pure gene stealers. In fact, it's even mentioend that many gene stealer cultists don't realize they called the tyrannids and aren't very happy to get eaten by them.
...that said, the latest Apocalypse book (which, again, lets you ally with ANYONE. There's a reason why the worst alliance relation is "Come the APOCALYPSE", not "Never") did use gene stealers as a narrative example of why your tyrannids might have a friggin' reaver titan at their disposal. As that's a GW studio source, well.... (although again, this is apparently rare enough that it only happens in apocalyptic situations, apparently. ...hell, the fact that genestealers got their hands on a friggin' titan probably qualifies as an apocalyptic situation in the first place).
TiamatRoar wrote: . ...hell, the fact that genestealers got their hands on a friggin' titan probably qualifies as an apocalyptic situation in the first place).
I believe you meant to write "an awesome situation."
TiamatRoar wrote:In fact, I'm pretty sure various GW sources have mentioned IG regiments that have gone mercenary before.
Absolutely - I'm just unsure how such an army list would deal with Commissars and Confessors etc; you'd basically have to rewrite their fluff a bit. But that's why I think it could be done.
TiamatRoar wrote:I think one issue with this is that Tyranids eat gene stealer cults too. I'm not aware of any fluff situation where tyrannids have ever fought alongside anything but pure gene stealers. In fact, it's even mentioend that many gene stealer cultists don't realize they called the tyrannids and aren't very happy to get eaten by them.
"[...] To this end, leaders of the cult direct their purestrain brood-kin to impregnate influential figures within the local authorities and planetary defence forces. Those implanted subsequently lose all free will, lying, murdering and blackmailing to further their power, the better to tear down organisations from within when their true masters descend from the stars. When the cult has grown to significant size, the psychic beacon that emanates from the cult's Patriarch ensures that a hive fleet will finally descend upon the doomed world. As the cult comes into range of the Hive Queen's psychic control, it becomes utterly subservient to the Tyranid invasion, and the underground cult will explode in bloody and violent revolution. This uprising is sometimes contained by the ruling forces, but usually by the time the Tyranid fleet arrives, the victim world's defences are rife with confusion and insurrection. The destruction of the cult is of no consequence to the Hive Mind, but this devastating preliminary attack can cripple the world's defences even before the first mycetic spore enters the atmosphere." - WD #266
In short, they do eat them, but if there's any cultists left they would be under influence of the Hivemind, and happily assist the invading forces. Suitable for a battle scenario!
]I just don't think that excessive use of punctuation marks, attempts to goad other posters, and blatantly ignoring statements such as other posters' repeated opinion of 4chan makes for a healthy atmosphere in a debate, 's all.
You seem to be overreacting. I don't see how being ambivalent about your bias for studio fluff counts as goading. Fact of the matter is that there is a precedent is for Flesh Tearers attacking Sororitas.
Flesh Tearers aren't even the same chapter as Blood Angels, anyways. That's like having the SoB be desperate allies with Codex: Space Marines simply because the Sons of Malice butchered the sisters sent to reign them in when they went renegate (...or hell, having the sisters be desperate allies with space marines and imperial guard just because sometimes space marines and IG go renegade in general. Might as well have Chaos Marines be desperate allies with Chaos Daemons because sometimes daemons eat or butcher Chaos Space Marines, and sometimes Chaos Marines enslave daemons against their will and stuff them into machines).
BlaxicanX wrote:We'll have to disagree on there being a fluff precedent for Flesh Tearers killing Adepta Sororitas?
I was responding to the first two sentences of your post. You know, before you edited that last part in.
That third sentence I have already responded to earlier, no? I even clarified the incident you were referring to for Troike.
TiamatRoar wrote:Flesh Tearers aren't even the same chapter as Blood Angels, anyways. That's like having the SoB be desperate allies with Codex: Space Marines simply because the Sons of Malice butchered the sisters sent to reign them in when they went renegate (...or hell, having the sisters be desperate allies with space marines and imperial guard just because sometimes space marines and IG go renegade in general.
It's certainly the same problem, which is why I think that "Allies of Convenience" for C:SM fits nicely as a sort of compromise between those Chapters they'd get along well with, and those they do not.
In case of the Blood Angels and their Successor Chapters, however, it could be argued that the Sisters' distrust seems to extend beyond the Flesh Tearers.
"During my service to the Order, I have heard many strange rumours concerning the Successor Chapters of the Blood Angels, but it is evident that the Fleshtearers have devolved far beyond any point reached by a loyalist Chapter." - Canoness Carmina on the Flesh Tearers, from the old Armageddon 3 website
"I have heard many strange rumours" wouldn't mean the SoB would distrust the "Successor Chapters of the Blood Angels" (note that she doesn't say "Blood Angels and their Successors") to the point of desperate allies, though, and she makes it very clear in the latter half of that sentence that it's the Flesh Tearers specifically that have "devolved far beyond any point reached by a loyalist Chapter", singling them out and really not saying "the rest of the Blood Angel successors might be just as bad."
Allies of Convenience with them is fine. Strange rumours could cause that and fluff-wise, Blood Angels and their successors really aren't trusted that much by outsiders by all indications I've seen. It's just people vying for desperate ally status that seem to not "get" what GW seems to have been shooting for with the thing (IE, the "best" possible situation, likely because, again, if it wasn't the "best" possible situation, you wouldn't be able to recreate a lot of battles in the fluff and that'd be stupid).
Desperate allies means just that, desperate. When was the last time any SoB fluff ever had an SoB declare "I'll never ally with blood angels/space wolves/dark angels unless there was no other option whatsoever!!!" Someone being "wary" of someone else would conceivably prevent Battle Brothers status, but Desperate Allies status should be reserved for those who'd ONLY ally with others under desperate situations. You have to consider that saying an Imperial faction wouldn't ally with another Imperial faction unless the situation is desperate is the equivalent of saying the Imperial Guard trusts the Eldar and Orks more than Imperial Organizations trust each other under the best of circumstances, and as bad as the Imperium's situation is, it's not THAT bad.
(again, the Black Templars case is arguably just a case of GW saying "Oh, that's wrong. Use Codex: Space Marines for them now", given that the Black Templars fluff in the new codex specifically states they respect them).
Personally, I never really had any huge problem with the allies chart as it is. This one is just about as good, I suppose, although I think it subscribes a bit too much to the line of thinking that says alliance level should be based on similarity of philosophy, rather than similarity of tactical approach.
TiamatRoar wrote:"I have heard many strange rumours" wouldn't mean the SoB would distrust the "Successor Chapters of the Blood Angels" (note that she doesn't say "Blood Angels and their Successors") to the point of desperate allies, though, and she makes it very clear in the latter half of that sentence that it's the Flesh Tearers specifically that have "devolved far beyond any point reached by a loyalist Chapter", singling them out and really not saying "the rest of the Blood Angel successors might be just as bad."
That's why I think "Allies of Convenience" is fine, actually. If it were just the Flesh Tearers, then they'd be Desperate Allies.
I'm not the one argueing for BA/DA to be Desperate Allies, only Space Wolves.
The Space Wolves was just a battle, though. Imperium forces fight each other pretty often. I thought it was considered standard procedure that Imperial Forces come to blows every once in a while. While I can see the Wolves distrusting the Grey Knights to the point of keeping "one eye open" around them because of the incident (assuming you take The Emperor's Gift events into account) due to them doing things like breaking parley, the sisters were just doing a job as far as I know. Sisters being desperate allies with the wolves is akin to the sisters saying they wouldn't trust the wolves' word if the wolves said "Hey, we need to work together for this" and vice-versa. Trust is a HUGE matter when it comes to whether allies are "desperate" or "convenient" (after all, the only difference is the One Eye Open rule, and that's based entirely around trust), and what reason would the sororitas have to believe that the space wolves would stab them in the back in the middle of battle if the two agreed to fight alongside each other for a battle or vice-versa?
Lorgan Grimar was chosen to be the overall leader of the Imperium's entire forces during the Black Crusade. So clearly, no matter how grating the Sororitas might possibly find the space wolves, to say "Oh, they could backstab us at any time!" when the Imperium trusted them enough to lead the largest mobilization of Imperial forces in history since the Horus Heresy would just be idiotic. Nor do the Space Wolves have any reason to think the Sororitas would do the same to them (again, the Months of Shame was just them doing their job, unlike the Grey Knights who did dishonourable things like break parlay and fire first... at least, I think it was the Ordos Malleus that did that. I could be wrong. *shrug*)
It's not just that one battle, though - that one battle was the climax of a long-simmering conflict between the SW and the Ministorum, and it could break out at any time again.
Breakdown of events ->
Ecclesiarchy: "I heard the SW do heretical rituals, we better check this out!"
SW: "Oi, this is our crib. You hear that? Stay out."
Ecclesiarchy: "We're sending an emissary, standby pls."
SW 1: *peeks over fortress wall* "They in range yet?"
SW 2: "Ayup."
SW 1: "Say hello to our macrocannon!"
Ecclesiarchy: "wft, this means war!"
SW: "Roar!"
SoB: "Roar!"
Ecclesiarchy: "Okay, this is going nowhere. Let's just call it a draw kk?"
Imperial forces do fight each other all the time. It usually ends with someone paying the price, though, and in this case the situation was never resolved. The Space Wolves are still mutant heretical priest-killers, and the SoB still don't exactly like that sort of stuff.
It doesn't have to do with rational thinking - we're talking zealots here, and someone who lobs artillery grenades at priestly delegations probably doesn't enjoy too much of a good reputation amongst the God-Emperor-fearing folks.
To me, this does have to count as more severe as the "mere scepticism" towards Dark and Blood Angels, which in turn must count as more negative than the Sisters' good relationship with the Black Templars.
That still wouldn't make them desperate allies, though. Again, the nature of desperate allies is you distrust your ally so much that you're worried they'll shoot you in the back. No matter how much the SoB and Space Wolves might dislike each other, there is nothing to indicate either of them would do that to each other.
If anything, Blood Angels with their Blood Thirst makes them a bigger threat in regards to that, although so far only the Flesh Tearers ever (possibly) let it happen to allied Imperial Forces (that's "publically" known).
Space Marines hate the Tau like crazy and the Imperium hates orks like crazy, yet they can at least trust those two damned xenos to not shoot them in the back once they come to an agreement. Why would the SoB and Space Wolves hate each other like that?
...is that the actual break down of events? Well, regardless, the Space Wolves at least gave a warning first in your breakdown so that still doesn't count as "shoot them in the back". Imperial forces firing on one another because one refused to back down is not a breach of trust (again, happens all the time). Desperate Allies means you're worried that your "ally" won't give you a warning at all.
So you're saying that what the Space Wolves did is not worse than how the Sisters would think about the Dark and the Blood Angels, with whom they at least had no direct quarrel yet, and who did not happen to kill a bunch of priests?
TiamatRoar wrote:...is that the actual break down of events? Well, regardless, the Space Wolves at least gave a warning first in your breakdown so that still doesn't count as "shoot them in the back".
I actually made that warning up, but I would hope the SW would have given one ...
Here's the quote:
The Ecclesiarchy Comes to Fenris 886.M41 A quorum of Ecclesiarchy officials approach Fenris, intending to inspect and assess the Space Wolves after hearing rumours of the worship of pagan gods. Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns. Almost a year later, the Ecclesiarchy and three orders of the Adepta Sororitas attempt to enter Fenrisian space in force. The resultant war lasts for three weeks before the Ecclesiarchy decides to let sleeping dogs lie and withdraws its forces.
Lynata wrote: So you're saying that what the Space Wolves did is not worse than how the Sisters would think about the Dark and the Blood Angels, with whom they at least had no direct quarrel yet, and who did not happen to kill a bunch of priests?
I editted my post.
Allies level isn't a matter of how much they like each other or how bad they think each other are. It's a matter of how much they can trust each other on the battlefield to not shoot each other.
The Space Wolves firing on those priests was not in the middle of battle. In your breakdown, they gave a clear warning first demanding the priests to stay away.
...okay, new edits needed now that your post is editted. Gimme a bit to read it.
TiamatRoar wrote:Allies level isn't a matter of how much they like each other or how bad they think each other are. It's a matter of how much they can trust each other on the battlefield to not shoot each other.
Aye, but given the history between these two forces, can either side be sure that the other wouldn't shoot them?
I see where you're coming from, I just don't think they would trust each other - and I think that the classification as Desperate Allies would serve to diversify the matrix.
The SoB in particular are fairly extreme in that they see the world in black and white, so most forces would either be Battle Brothers or Sworn Enemies to them. The SW are, I think, pretty much the only ally that could be a Desperate Ally.
TiamatRoar wrote:The Space Wolves firing on those priests was not in the middle of battle. In your breakdown, they gave a clear warning first demanding the priests to stay away.
I edited my post with the quote - decide for yourself whether or not that sounds like a surprise attack.
....yea, that quote leaves open whether they gave a warning first or not. Well, if they did NOT, then yea, I can see why the sisters could be desperate allies due to the One Eye Open rule. But again, that quote leaves it kinda ambiguous whether they did or not.
Also, the quote is very brief. It doesn't say whether the sisters share the Ecclesiarch's feelings or not, either. As it is, that quote is way too open to interpretation and too skimpy on the details to really get anything about how the SoB might feel about the Space Wolves in terms of trust. If the quote ended with "The sisters have not trusted the Space Wolves ever since the incident", then you'd have a point. But as it is, that quote leaves out waaaay too many details to seriously get any hard conclusions from it.
TiamatRoar wrote:Allies level isn't a matter of how much they like each other or how bad they think each other are. It's a matter of how much they can trust each other on the battlefield to not shoot each other.
Aye, but given the history between these two forces, can either side be sure that the other wouldn't shoot them?
We can't really say for sure, because that quote doesn't give any details about... well, anything, really. Depending on the specifics, then maybe the SoB could be desperate allies based on that. But right now it's mostly in the realm of speculation.
While it'd also diversify the ally types, I'm under the impression that "Desperate Allies" exists to give you an excuse to ally two factions together that would otherwise just be silly. IE, it's there so you can slap togehter your necrons and daemons and say "Oh, they were desperate" if you wanted to. Not so you could say "Oh, these people have a wide spectrum of battle brothers, allies of convenience, and desperate allies!" I could be wrong on that, though.
TiamatRoar wrote:While it'd also diversify the ally types, I'm under the impression that "Desperate Allies" exists to give you an excuse to ally two factions together that would otherwise just be silly.
You're probably right about that - I think the Sisters are just a bit special in that they are fairly stubborn about their principles, and so would otherwise lose out on that tier completely. But this, too, is a matter of interpretation.
TiamatRoar wrote:While it'd also diversify the ally types, I'm under the impression that "Desperate Allies" exists to give you an excuse to ally two factions together that would otherwise just be silly.
You're probably right about that - I think the Sisters are just a bit special in that they are fairly stubborn about their principles, and so would otherwise lose out on that tier completely. But this, too, is a matter of interpretation.
Well, they're stubborn enough to only be allies of convenience with most imperial factions instead of Battle Brothers, having the least amount of Battle Brothers of all the Imperium with the exception of the Grey Knights (which I assume is because it's hard to be Battle Brothers status with a faction that in-universe officially isn't supposed to exist). I can see why some might desire them to be even more stubborn than that, but eh, at least it's apparently acknowledged somewhat.
You do have to make allowances for every imperial faction slaughtering every other on a semi-regular basis. It just seems to be the default method of resolving disputes, kind of the way Americans file lawsuits. ("You made my coffee too hot and it scalded me!" BLAMBLAMBLAMBLAM).
It would be a very different setting if the tag line were
"LAWHAMMER 40,000: In the grim darkness of the far future, there is only BINDING ARBITRATION."
Yea, like I said above, imperial factions fighting each other is accepted standard procedure. When it comes to whether or not one should be a "Desperate Ally" instead of "Ally of Convenience", it really should boil down to trust more than anything, mainly because the only difference between the two is a trust issue (One Eye Open). Whether or not they'll ally at all or be willing to squad with each other (Battle Brothers status) would be based in part on personal preference (hence why the stubborn sisters are rarely battle brothers with anyone) as well as tactical doctrine, but AoC vs Desperate Allies is more a trust issue, and a small scale one. On a large scale, Space Marines might not trust Tau farther than a Tau could throw them, but in battle Tau can be trusted to not shoot their own allies. At least, going by the gameplay rules. All in my opinion, of course, since GW has been infuriatingly silent on the reasoning behind the various ally statuses.
Certainly the sisters aren't very trusting either (their job is to root out heresy, after all), but a first founding chapter that's been serving the Imperium for 10,000 years would have to do something pretty bad to garner so much mistrust that it'd lead to Desperate Allies status (such as say, fire on Ecclesiarchy forces without a warning). Even then, it might take multiple cases of that, because the incident in question happened in the late 40th Millenium, which means relegating sisters and wolves to Desperate Allies status based on that incident alone would lock players out who want to play Sisters allied with Wolves in the early 40th Millenium and prior (maybe someone would be in the mood to do Age of Apostacy and Unbelief mop-up battles).
TiamatRoar wrote:Certainly the sisters aren't very trusting either (their job is to root out heresy, after all), but a first founding chapter that's been serving the Imperium for 10,000 years would have to do something pretty bad to garner so much mistrust that it'd lead to Desperate Allies status (such as say, fire on Ecclesiarchy forces without a warning). Even then, it might take multiple cases of that, because the incident in question happened in the late 40th Millenium, which means relegating sisters and wolves to Desperate Allies status based on that incident alone would lock players out who want to play Sisters allied with Wolves in the early 40th Millenium and prior (maybe someone would be in the mood to do Age of Apostacy and Unbelief mop-up battles).
Well, I'd think the game "as is" takes place in 999.M41 - you'd lock out or change more armies than just the Sisters if you go back in time. Krieg, for example, supposedly didn't become a death world until 433.M40. 'Nids and Necrons haven't been around for very long either. Campaigns or individual scenarios set in a different era should have their own Matrix, or rather have one made up by those organising or participating in the event.
And for a last comment on the Sisters vs SW, I'd like to point towards the history the Space Marine Chapters have when it comes to falling to Chaos. Heresy and mutation are, or so I believe, generally considered "obvious proof" that something is very wrong with someone. When that someone starts shooting up Imperial forces and getting into trouble with the Inquisition, is it really so far-fetched to assume they're one step from becoming that which fully half of the other First Founding Legions have become? Because that's how I think the more zealous Imperial warriors would view them.
But the game doesn't take place in 999 M41. Corbulo is playable in both his Death Company and non-death company forms. If we take the IA books into account, the Imperial Armour books take place across a wide range of dates, and both the Vraks army and Huron's pre-fall army are playable armies. The various missions and playable games in White Dwarf also take place across a wide range of dates. The first war for Armegeddon, that was playable, took place in very early 40th millennium. The world-wide Fall of Medusa campaign took place afterwards.
Well, most if not all of these events at least took place in the 40th millennium, admittingly (besides Fall of Medusa, maybe?). However, that's still more than enough to cover a date range of time that existed before this event in question (which happened in late 40th millennium)
Also, it's kinda shoehorning EVERY sister into becoming an overly zealous Imperial Warrior who sees things in the same narrow context. Again, the allies matrix is supposed to represent the best of situations (far as I can tell. Again, Tau Marine battle brothers...). Why should EVERY SoB think the Space Wolves might shoot them in the back just because of various incidents? In the inquisition's case (I assume you're referring to the Months of Shame), the Space Wolves clearly had their reasons, where even the Grey Knight protagonist saw their point of view had some validity to it (even if he overall sided with the inquisition's point of view). It's not like Sisters of Battle don't care about civilians either. The Flesh Tearers incident had them appalled at the slaughter of civilians. Surely at least SOME sisters would find the Space Wolves' reasoning and love of imperial citizens to have some validity.
As for the Ecclesiarchy, again, we don't know enough details, although the Astartes by right are independent and the line did say the Ecclesiarchy "decided to let sleeping dogs lie". So apparently the ecclesiarchy isn't THAT worried that they're "one step short of heresy" if they aren't going to pursue the matter further (and again, Logan was later on elected overall commander of the largest Imperium mobilization since the Horus Heresy. Not just of Space Marines, but ALL Imperial forces, which would include Battle Sisters).
The whole thing seems overly restrictive and narrow-minded on how all sisters should be shoe-horned into the same line of thought over a set of dubious circumstances with vague or nonexistent details. Admittingly I might be a bit biased here because I always thought it was dumb in general how the "female" faction of the Imperium are all shoe-horned into a narrow mindset of burn-the-heretic whereas the "male" faction can have every philosophy under the sun, but even this idea seems rather extreme relative to those pet peeves.
....at any rate, at least someone at GW agrees they shouldn't be Desperate Allies, since they're officially Allies of Convenience right now. Although I suppose that doesn't mean much when they never gave a word as to their reasonings behind each relationship level. Bah.
So, I see many instances throughout this discussion of various incidents and I am wondering if all the "facts" are coming from Games Workshop canon or not. Obviously GW canon is the official "word" in canon discussions. I have read somewhere in this forum that Black Library has also been blessed as official canon by Games Workshop and I wonder if this is true? By the way, are there any good books that are considered official canon that I could read because I have only been reading the Black Library Horus Heresy series and now I am confused on if that is official canon or not.
There isn't supposed to be a "canon" because GW wants you to have as much freedom as you need to write your own stories and narratives.... preferably using minis and rulebooks that you brought from them.
Of course, GW tends to follow its own "canon" more often than not, so whatever. All of the incidents in this thread at least appeared in a work produced by either GW or one of its subsidiaries or business partners (Black Library in particular. The particular ones of relevance however being discussed in this thread are from "core GW studio" fluff (the codexes). Which basically means "as close to what could be considered 'canon' as you can get". Some are from Black Library but they're mostly just there to provide circumstantial evidence.
Chris_P wrote:So, I see many instances throughout this discussion of various incidents and I am wondering if all the "facts" are coming from Games Workshop canon or not. Obviously GW canon is the official "word" in canon discussions. I have read somewhere in this forum that Black Library has also been blessed as official canon by Games Workshop and I wonder if this is true? By the way, are there any good books that are considered official canon that I could read because I have only been reading the Black Library Horus Heresy series and now I am confused on if that is official canon or not.
TiamatRoar wrote:Why should EVERY SoB think the Space Wolves might shoot them in the back just because of various incidents?
Because unlike the Space Marines or the Imperial Guard the Adepta Sororitas share a single identity, with a single origin, and a singular leader at the top - and lots of transfers between the orders. Them having this peculiar level of uniformity is kinda their thing and part of what sets them apart from the Space Marines - where you see it as a bug, I see it as a feature.
TiamatRoar wrote:But the game doesn't take place in 999 M41. Corbulo is playable in both his Death Company and non-death company forms.
This is a good point, though.
TiamatRoar wrote:and again, Logan was later on elected overall commander of the largest Imperium mobilization since the Horus Heresy. Not just of Space Marines, but ALL Imperial forces, which would include Battle Sisters
Source? I have read that he was elected commander of all Space Marines. Not all Imperials. If you're just quoting from Lexicanum, I'd like to point out that the German version of that wiki article tells it differently, too.
Oh, and since I'm just browsing through the books ... snippet from the 5E SW Codex:
"It is not just against the enemies of the Imperium that Grimnar has waged his war. He has willingly, some would say joyfully, led his forces into battle against Imperial institutions whose agendas and actions he deemed threatening to those within his sprawling domain. This has led to many accusations of rebellion, heresy and treason being levelled at Logan and his Chapter, along with the usual rumours of genetic deviancy. The fact that the Old Wolf is so ready to meet his detractors on the field of battle is undeniably one of the reasons why these allegations are not taken further - the senior adepts of the Administratum know from experience that it is better to have the Space Wolves as allies than as enemies."
Really, if I'd belong to the factions of "detractors", I'd keep One Eye Open on those trigger-happy Wolves.
Again though, presumably these alliances involve the two parties agreeing to ally beforehand. As trigger happy as the space wolves are, the thought of them actually attacking fellow Imperium forces in the middle of battle after agreeing to ally with them for that battle seems unthinkable to me, even for the sisters. The sisters might be zealous and stubborn, but that's paranoia, not zealousness.and stubborness. The Space Wolves have been around for 10,000 years, so anyone with any brains at all can look at their history and see if they're prone to backstabbing in the middle of battle, and they aren't. Logan actually honors the idea of parley and agreements, after all (judging by how PISSED he was at the Grey Knights for breaking it).
If the Orks can be trusted to stick to their agreement by the Imperial Guard, I'm sure the Space Wolves can unless shown otherwise. And they haven't shown otherwise in 10,000 years, as far as we know (though the possibility exists that they've shown otherwise given how often they've openly defied the Imperium, we've yet to be explicitly told that or indicated of that). Sure, SoB are less trusting than the IG, but less trusting to the point that they'd keep one-eye open to the Wolves while the IG is battle brothers with them seems like a hell of a stretch to me. And IMHO, it'd paint the sisters out to be idiots, that they'd waste time worrying about the wolves shooting them in the back when there are heretics in front of them.
As for Logan Grimnar, I misread it. It says in the wiki that he just led the Space Marines, but Creed "established his support for him". Well, it does show that at least Creed trusts Logan on a very high level. Again, it paints the sisters out to be paranoid idiots when Creed can trust the wolves but, should the sisters be on the same battlefield as the wolves and presumably agree to team up before hand, they'd be watching their backs and being distracted from the heretics in front of them.
Really, think about that. SISTERS DISTRACTED FROM THE HERETICS IN FRONT OF THEM. Doesn't that seem just a bit wrong? I mean, in the case of sisters teamed up with filthy xenos it makes sense, but teamed up with the Wolves when they haven't done anything on THAT level in their 10,000 years of history? (to my knowledge. Again, open defiance is a far cry from shooting an ally in the back in the middle of battle). That's just stupid.
Of course, I could always be interpretting things wrong, and maybe the wolves really did do a bunch of shooting of their allies in the past and we just never heard of it, or something else atrocious enough to warrant the sisters being worried that they'll shoot them in the back and break agreements in the middle of battle, despite how the Imperial Guard and several other Space Marine chapters are willing to squad up with them and elect them leaders of hte Space Marines for the 13th Black Crusade. The fact that the official allies matrix makes them allies of convenience with the sisters leads me to believe otherwise, though, so burden of proof lies elsewhere.
The IG practically worship the Sisterhood, mostly due to the presence and skill of the Orders Hospitaler. It'd make a lot more sense for the Sisters to trust the average IG Regiment, filled as it is with proper, God-Emperor-fearing men and women of the Imperium, than a bunch of abhuman bio-mutated barbaric pagans.
Psienesis wrote: The IG practically worship the Sisterhood, mostly due to the presence and skill of the Orders Hospitaler. It'd make a lot more sense for the Sisters to trust the average IG Regiment, filled as it is with proper, God-Emperor-fearing men and women of the Imperium, than a bunch of abhuman bio-mutated barbaric pagans.
If this is in regards to battle brothers status with the Space Marines, that comes from the 6th Ed Space Marine fluff that said they fought "side by side" (with the Black Templars, in this case). Fighting that close to each other possibly implies Battle Brothers status, because taken literally, "side by side" means close enough to squad with each other. There's a little leg room to say they fought as allies of convenience anyways under that wording, though, but... not very much, in my opinion (and of course, you'd REALLY be stretching things to say they did such a thing under a Desperate Allies relationship, which is why it contradicts the allies matrix)
While open defiance is a far cry from shooting an ally in the back... open defiance is open heresy. Worse, it's open blasphemy.
And it's not like the Sisters haven't been used to take out other Space Marine Chapters that have gone heretical. Why would the Space Wolves, even given their vaunted position as a First Founding Chapter, not be a bit leery that the go-to organization for culling Space Marines is fighting next to them.
TiamatRoar wrote:Really, think about that. SISTERS DISTRACTED FROM THE HERETICS IN FRONT OF THEM.
By the heretics behind them? Yes, I could see that.
I guess two of us should just agree to disagree, though, as the discussion seems to run in circles - it largely is a matter of how we interpret the available fluff.
Psienesis wrote:The IG practically worship the Sisterhood, mostly due to the presence and skill of the Orders Hospitaler. It'd make a lot more sense for the Sisters to trust the average IG Regiment, filled as it is with proper, God-Emperor-fearing men and women of the Imperium, than a bunch of abhuman bio-mutated barbaric pagans.
And every single Imperial Guard regiment is, by Ecclesiarchal decree, accompanied by at least one Confessor of the Frateris Clergy to care for the spiritual needs of the soldiery, and kept in check by Commissars raised in the Ministorum-run Scholae Progenium the Sisters themselves hail from.
(in truth there's probably a fair bit of IG regiments that have strange customs or a weird interpretation of the faith, but those details are discernible only upon closer look - see the purges of supposed heretics by the Argent Shroud amongst lmperial forces on Armageddon that basically resulted out of the Sisters in that sector having had nothing else to do thanks to lacking a "proper" enemy to fight)
Psienesis wrote: While open defiance is a far cry from shooting an ally in the back... open defiance is open heresy. Worse, it's open blasphemy.
And it's not like the Sisters haven't been used to take out other Space Marine Chapters that have gone heretical. Why would the Space Wolves, even given their vaunted position as a First Founding Chapter, not be a bit leery that the go-to organization for culling Space Marines is fighting next to them.
Because in a hypothetical situation involving the Arch-Enemy, the Wolves still know that the Sisters are, at least obstensibly, loyal to the Imperium and therefore more-or-less on the same side. In these situations you just have to remember the scale of threat that both armies are supposed to be under. Maybe they're both trying to escape from a world that's over-run with chaos?
Lynata wrote: By the heretics behind them? Yes, I could see that.
They're accused of heresy. They've yet to be convicted of it, and we've yet to see any fluff that it's specifically the sisters of battle that accused them of it. Maybe the accusations just come from ecclesiarchs or the Inquisition, with the sisters having a neutral stance on the matter, like was the case with the Grey Knights during the months of shame. We don't know.
Well, at any rate, like I said, GW's current allies matrix agrees with my interpretation by all indications. So I'll stick to that. You're welcome to take an interpretation that contradicts the allies matrix as it is though if you'd like. I suppose even GW contradicts it sometimes (mainly, the "side by side" thing and presumably-renegade IG only being allies of convenience with other Chaos forces. The former technically isn't a contradiction if you assume the Black Templars to be deleted from the allies matrix after being rolled over to the rest of the Marines, though)
TiamatRoar wrote: They're accused of heresy. They've yet to be convicted of it, and we've yet to see any fluff that it's specifically the sisters of battle that accused them of it. Maybe the accusations just come from ecclesiarchs or the Inquisition, with the sisters having a neutral stance on the matter, like was the case with the Grey Knights during the months of shame.
Not meaning to stretch this debate too much further, but the Sisters would side with the Inquisition and Ecclesiarchy if one organisation accused somebody of heresy. I highly doubt that they'd "stay neutral" if one of their closest allies, and organisations specifically tasked with combating heresy, deemed someone a heretic. Especially when it's regarding an organisation that they distrust to begin with. Furthermore, they'd certainly see an attack on an investigative Ecclesiarchy force as concrete proof of heretical elements.
Perhaps. However, the Ecclesiarchy "let sleeping dogs lie". So that matter's settled. Again, burden of proof that it isn't doesn't lie on my shoulders, becaues the allies matrix right now agrees with me.
TiamatRoar wrote: Perhaps. However, the Ecclesiarchy "let sleeping dogs lie". So that matter's settled.
Settled, but I would hardly think forgotten. The Ecclesiarchy and Sisters are not the sort to forgive and forget, after all.
TiamatRoar wrote: Again, burden of proof that it isn't doesn't lie on my shoulders, becaues the allies matrix right now agrees with me.
The matrix ain't exactly perfect, though. This is the same thing that had the SoB and BT as desperate allies, when they'd co-operated in the fluff before. They got along worse than the SoB and SW, who had actively fought in the fluff.
It's nice that GW paid more attention to the fluff than most people gave them credit for. Things like remembering (apparently) Ork Mercenaries and Eldar corsairs when they devised the allies chart that hilariously have people crying "Foul!". Even the Tau Battle Brothers case actually happened.
Really, the only outstanding issues are "fought side by side with the marines" and renegade guard. Well, some of the desperate allies are kinda wird but those are desperate allies, which, like I said, was probably meant to give you an outlet for the wierd (which, according to GW, the SoB and Space Wolves are apparently not).
TiamatRoar wrote:They're accused of heresy. They've yet to be convicted of it, and we've yet to see any fluff that it's specifically the sisters of battle that accused them of it. Maybe the accusations just come from ecclesiarchs or the Inquisition, with the sisters having a neutral stance on the matter, like was the case with the Grey Knights during the months of shame. We don't know.
If you really do want to discuss this further ...
When the accused opens fire on the investigator, I'm sure that this would generally be regarded as an admission of guilt - even today, in our not-quite-as-paranoid society, this would be common sense. And arguably it was enough to send a force of Battle Sisters to censure the Wolves.
As for these "Months of Shame" - even if you adopt this novel fluff into your perception of the setting (which I think would be a mistake as it'd make the Inquisition look even less serious if they just disregard the murder of one of their number "haha, it was the Wolves, they do that from time to time ... gotta understand that!"), then the Sisters would not be aware of this and thus would have no opinion at all.
TiamatRoar wrote:Well, at any rate, like I said, GW's current allies matrix agrees with my interpretation by all indications. So I'll stick to that. You're welcome to take an interpretation that contradicts the allies matrix as it is though if you'd like.
Given that the Allies matrix also tried to tell me that the SoB are Desperate Allies with BT, of course I will.
The relationship of SW+SoB on that chart was hardly the only thing I and others deemed strange at the time it was released...
Lynata wrote: If you really do want to discuss this further ...
When the accused opens fire on the investigator, I'm sure that this would generally be regarded as an admission of guilt - even today, in our not-quite-as-paranoid society, this would be common sense. And arguably it was enough to send a force of Battle Sisters to censure the Wolves.
You can look at what you think would be "common sense" or not all you want, but the established RESULTS speak for themselves. The wolves today are not officially branded as heretics (far from it, if the 13th Black Crusade election of Logan as Space Marine leader is any indication) , so apparently, for whatever reason, regardless of what you interpret would have been the sensible reaction of the Imperium, the Imperium decided differently. You can speculate why that's the case (my own speculation: Because the Imperium firing on itself is standard procedure), but you can't speculate on the end results.
As for these "Months of Shame" - even if you adopt this novel fluff into your perception of the setting (which I think would be a mistake as it'd make the Inquisition look even less serious if they just disregard the murder of one of their number "haha, it was the Wolves, they do that from time to time ... gotta understand that!"), then the Sisters would not be aware of this and thus would have no opinion at all.
As an example of how standard procedure the Imperium shooting itself is, if one hypothetically includes this novel as part of their canon, many other members of the inquisition in this novel were thinking of their own ways to dispose of Kysnos as well. Again, the Imperium is constantly shooting itself. It's standard procedure. What's not standard procedure and generally not depicted in most (if any) fluff sources, however, is Imperial forces worried about such an event (being shot by their own Imperium allies) in the middle of battle when fighting alongside other Imperial forces (Celestial Lions don't count because they weren't fighting alongside any other Imperial forces at the time).
TiamatRoar wrote:Well, at any rate, like I said, GW's current allies matrix agrees with my interpretation by all indications. So I'll stick to that. You're welcome to take an interpretation that contradicts the allies matrix as it is though if you'd like.
Given that the Allies matrix also tried to tell me that the SoB are Desperate Allies with BT, of course I will.
I like to think GW made a mistake with that as well as realized their mistake, and it's corrected with C: SM 6th Edition. Although a FAQ on that would be nice. But then they'd have to like, actually say something about the allies matrix, and they seem averse to that.
You really need to read Blood of Asahaim, there is too much of "your version" Lynata...Don't blow this out of proportion, please.....
Anyway, so what if SW did eat some sisters ? You are forgeting "smear my armor with holy blood thingy and butchering by the FT ??? " ...And don't forget to SW sisters are bloody heretics...God Emperor and landing with their filthy feet on sacred Fenris to preach Lorgars words ???...sheesh...
Again, read the book, it might clear some things for you...
O yes - DA would kill them wihout blinking if they heard about the fallen, mutant BA in rt and br MODE ??? Even GK ??? ....hm....
Lynata wrote: If you really do want to discuss this further ...
When the accused opens fire on the investigator, I'm sure that this would generally be regarded as an admission of guilt - even today, in our not-quite-as-paranoid society, this would be common sense. And arguably it was enough to send a force of Battle Sisters to censure the Wolves.
You can look at what you think would be "common sense" or not all you want, but the established RESULTS speak for themselves. The wolves today are not officially branded as heretics (far from it, if the 13th Black Crusade election of Logan as Space Marine leader is any indication) , so apparently, for whatever reason, regardless of what you interpret would have been the sensible reaction of the Imperium, the Imperium decided differently. You can speculate why that's the case (my own speculation: Because the Imperium firing on itself is standard procedure), but you can't speculate on the end results.
As for these "Months of Shame" - even if you adopt this novel fluff into your perception of the setting (which I think would be a mistake as it'd make the Inquisition look even less serious if they just disregard the murder of one of their number "haha, it was the Wolves, they do that from time to time ... gotta understand that!"), then the Sisters would not be aware of this and thus would have no opinion at all.
As an example of how standard procedure the Imperium shooting itself is, if one hypothetically includes this novel as part of their canon, many other members of the inquisition in this novel were thinking of their own ways to dispose of Kysnos as well. Again, the Imperium is constantly shooting itself. It's standard procedure. What's not standard procedure and generally not depicted in most (if any) fluff sources, however, is Imperial forces worried about such an event (being shot by their own Imperium allies) in the middle of battle when fighting alongside other Imperial forces (Celestial Lions don't count because they weren't fighting alongside any other Imperial forces at the time).
TiamatRoar wrote:Well, at any rate, like I said, GW's current allies matrix agrees with my interpretation by all indications. So I'll stick to that. You're welcome to take an interpretation that contradicts the allies matrix as it is though if you'd like.
Given that the Allies matrix also tried to tell me that the SoB are Desperate Allies with BT, of course I will.
I like to think GW made a mistake with that as well as realized their mistake, and it's corrected with C: SM 6th Edition. Although a FAQ on that would be nice. But then they'd have to like, actually say something about the allies matrix, and they seem averse to that.
Actually (hopefully somebody can prove me wrong), I believe that BT are still required to use their own personall alliance chart rather than the standard SM's
Lynata wrote: If you really do want to discuss this further ...
When the accused opens fire on the investigator, I'm sure that this would generally be regarded as an admission of guilt - even today, in our not-quite-as-paranoid society, this would be common sense. And arguably it was enough to send a force of Battle Sisters to censure the Wolves.
You can look at what you think would be "common sense" or not all you want, but the established RESULTS speak for themselves. The wolves today are not officially branded as heretics (far from it, if the 13th Black Crusade election of Logan as Space Marine leader is any indication) , so apparently, for whatever reason, regardless of what you interpret would have been the sensible reaction of the Imperium, the Imperium decided differently. You can speculate why that's the case (my own speculation: Because the Imperium firing on itself is standard procedure), but you can't speculate on the end results.
By who ??? Fanatics, who have no authority over SM..??? And they accuse the first founding legion ? Censure on the first founding legion/chapter ? Not happening in 40k...EVER...
Actually (hopefully somebody can prove me wrong), I believe that BT are still required to use their own personall alliance chart rather than the standard SM's
I don't think there's been an official confirmation either way. However, the fact that the Black Templar are stated to have fought "side by side" with the sisters in 6th Ed Codex: Space Marines means that SOMEWHERE there's a mistake. Whether the mistake is with that bit of fluff, or whether the mistake is with the original allies matrix (and it's been presumably corrected by the removal of Black Templars from it) is unknown, but there's definately a mistake somewhere there.
As I prefer to go by a "latest fluff overrides prior fluff" code of belief, I lean towards the latter case, myself. However, GW writers not paying attention or whatever else is DEFINATELY not out of the question.
DarthMarko wrote:Anyway, so what if SW did eat some sisters ? You are forgeting "smear my armor with holy blood thingy and butchering by the FT ??? " ...
The Bloodtide incident is not known to the Sisterhood, and the Fleshtearers are about to be excommunicated. I would actually flag them as "Come the Apocalypse" if they were a standalone force ("By the Immortal Emperor and everything I hold to be Holy, my Sisters will not risk themselves by allying with savages, regardless of your own wishes."), but given that the BA tier also incorporates a lot of other Chapters that would be both unfair and unrealistic. The problem is that other BA Successors would be treated differently from the FT, yet they all form a single Ally, so my suggestion of "Ally of Convenience" is a compromise of sorts. Unfortunate, but necessary.
DarthMarko wrote:And don't forget to SW sisters are bloody heretics...
See, one more reason why they should be Desperate Allies. You're argueing in my favour!
DarthMarko wrote:to preach Lorgars words ???
Fatidicus'.
DarthMarko wrote:Again, read the book, it might clear some things for you...
I generally don't think too highly of novels - they tend to warp things too much in favour of the protagonist, feature a considerable power creep, and conflict with the Codex fluff I am much more accustomed to. Personal opinion.
That's not to say I don't ready any of the BL novels at all, but the way the Space Wolves have been treated has actually them made them less interesting to me (which is kinda sad given the basic idea), rather than more. I just prefer a more "down to earth" approach to things, so for example I would rather like to read a story about the Celestial Lions as that is a Chapter that has, at least, been portrayed as "vulnerable", actually suffering consequences for their actions. That's the sort of tragedy I am looking for in the stuff I read. And that's why I'm playing one in my DW game.
Lyn you are forgeting the crucial part of GW40k reallty ...SM > the rest...So don't expect a purge of FT soon...I'm sorry but that a harsh reality ( which you are still having a problem with he,he.... )...Did you like GE Leto's fish speakers, btw ?
Hey, I know your pov about the novels, but you really need to give them a chance... At least in this instance.....
Psssht IG > SM. A man of steel can't do nothin' to them balls of steel! I must ask though... what does FT even mean? In terms of books... curse you gw with your lazy way of getting out of inconsistencies that make it so that everything and nothing is fluffy! If I might rudel yask.... could I ask what the exacts of this book are? I've been rather averse to 40k books as I feel SM books have a tendency of.... becoming bolter data slates that jurgen brings around for private time. I tend to prefer the human ones for that and only grab the ones people tend to love (Iron Warriors, UM, Night Lords, etc)
StarTrotter wrote:I must ask though... what does FT even mean?
Flesh Tearers, one of the Blood Angels' Successor Chapters that suffers from a rather aggravated stage of geneseed corruption. There was an ... incident during the Armageddon 3 global campaign.
You can read up on it on the archived website here and here. Their Index Astartes Chapter background is archived here. It's some pretty cool (and relatively little known) background. Enjoy!
StarTrotter wrote:[...] bolter data slates that jurgen brings around for private time
Hah - well paraphrased. And I feel likewise. However, I found myself drawn to the graphic novels and comic books published by Black Library. For some reason, the stories there are much more varied and less one-sided. Might be worth a look ... they certainly surprised (and entertained) me.
DarthMarko wrote: You really need to read Blood of Asahaim, there is too much of "your version" Lynata...
Blood of Asaheim? The same book that has a Canoness losing her faith, only to have it restored by some Space Wolves? And Sisters who go around letting plague victims into their perimeter, in the midst of a Nurglite incursion? If that's the alternate version, then I think I vastly prefer the studio fluff version, thanks.
Void__Dragon wrote: because they are collectively too stupid to recognize a refractor field
They were primitives at the time, of course they didn't recognise it. Vandire himself even gloated about how he knew they wouldn't understand it after he pulled that trick.
I heard about it second hand from Furyou, but I think what basically happened is that the Canoness lost her faith after a long, grueling war against some Nurglite forces, only to have it restored when the heroic Space Wolves show up to singlehandedly save the day.
That said, I'd think a Canoness would be of sufficient status to be a bit more realistic in their assessment of Space Marines, like the canoness in Helsreach, who gives the Black Templar no particular regard, and in fact finds the sociopathy with which they approach serving their god distasteful.
I think that all Sisters would be suspicious of Space Marines, not just Canonesses. Marines don't worship big E as a god and are abhumans, any Sister is going to be very uneasy with those traits.
Also, it just doesn't make sense for a Canoness to lose her faith due to a bit of difficult combat in the first place, only to have it restored by some near-heretical abhumans.
The Emperor himself sanctioned Space Marines. He created them. Officially, they are not abhumans.
For them to condemn Space Marines simply by their biology is to defy the Emperor's will itself. So I can't really see why all Sisters of Battle would be suspicious of them, or even most. It would be tantamount to telling the Emperor that he is wrong.
And that's why they're tolerated as much as they are, see. They have that direct connection to the Emperor. But, at the same time, they (or most of them) reject him as a god, instead seeing him as a man. To the Adepta Sororitas, being the extremely devoted zealots that they are, this is a big problem, and will be a point of tension. The codex fluff seems to reinforce this idea, I remember reading about how while the Ecclesiarchy (and by extension the Sisters) do disapprove of the beliefs of the Marines, they still provide Chaplains with Rosariuses. Sure they're willing to co-operate, but by no means are they comfortable with the Marines.
As for the abhumans thing specifically, that too would be a love hate thing, I'd imagine. A direct connection to the Emperor, but still a departure from the sacred human form. Certainly in the case of further mutated chapters like the Space Wolves or Black Dragons, there would be additional unease.
Not on the Sisters, he didn't. A Canoness (the most faithful Sister in an Order, by the way) wouldn't lose her faith because a war was tough, a Canoness would have fought in many wars by that point. An organisation who specialise in fighting heresy would not just let plague bearers into their perimeter freely., they would grab their flamers and let loose instead. Lastly, a group of elite soldiers, led by an individual that the GW site describes as possessing "tactical genius" wouldn't leave her perimeter unfortified. According to Furyou, the Sisters seem to forget to make any preparations prior to the Space Wolves arriving. He portrayed the Sisters badly, I'm afraid.
Also, "choose what you like" and "You can't ignore the written material" are rather contradictory statements, don't you think?
Void__Dragon wrote: The Emperor himself sanctioned Space Marines. He created them. Officially, they are not abhumans.
For them to condemn Space Marines simply by their biology is to defy the Emperor's will itself. So I can't really see why all Sisters of Battle would be suspicious of them, or even most. It would be tantamount to telling the Emperor that he is wrong.
The Heresy maybe, I guess a lot of the Sisters schooling would be about those dark days possibly?
Troike wrote: Not on the Sisters, he didn't. A Canoness (the most faithful Sister in an Order, by the way) wouldn't lose her faith because a war was tough, a Canoness would have fought in many wars by that point. An organisation who specialise in fighting heresy would not just let plague bearers into their perimeter freely., they would grab their flamers and let loose instead. Lastly, a group of elite soldiers, led by an individual that the GW site describes as possessing "tactical genius" wouldn't leave her perimeter unfortified. According to Furyou, the Sisters seem to forget to make any preparations prior to the Space Wolves arriving. He portrayed the Sisters badly, I'm afraid.
Also, "choose what you like" and "You can't ignore the written material" are rather contradictory statements, don't you think?
Hm yeah, but you have read the book, you choose to ignore it...Book is still there, and I like it...
I think one of the problems here is some people choosing what they WANT to believe the sisters feel about the various space marine factions (that they distrust or dislike them), without any proof of what the sisters ACTUALLY feel about them. At this point we have a fluff source which contradicts that belief that the sisters (bood of asaheim), a fluff source that saids they fight alongside some of them (6th Ed Space Marines Black Templares), a game rule that says they're allies of convenience (NOT Desperate Allies) with one exception that's contradicted in a later source (with Black Templars) and that possibly no longer applies (debatable, but it's still... well, debatable), and several events which do NOT state the sisters' feelings on the subject or directly state how that affected their relationship with the marines in question, of which you can only SPECULATE the resulting effect on their relationship. The only event which does state the sisters' opinion is the Flesh Tearers, and EVERYONE distrusts those guys. Even if you argue "Everyone distrusts the wolves, too! The fluff says so!", that doesn't change the fact that the sisters are never specifically stated to have a greater distrust than everyone else (who's all allies of convenience at worse with the Wolves), so all one can do is SPECULATE as such.
If someone wants their sisters to be distrustful of Space Marines and waste time looking over their shoulders worried their marine allies will shoot them in the middle of battle against chaos marines even in the "best" of circumstances, then that's their prerogative. But for that someone to say such a relationship would make for a more "lore friendly" allies matrix when there are no fluff sources stating as such is just trying to make an allies matrix that's more friendly to HIS (or her) lore.
Troike wrote: Not on the Sisters, he didn't. A Canoness (the most faithful Sister in an Order, by the way) wouldn't lose her faith because a war was tough, a Canoness would have fought in many wars by that point. An organisation who specialise in fighting heresy would not just let plague bearers into their perimeter freely., they would grab their flamers and let loose instead. Lastly, a group of elite soldiers, led by an individual that the GW site describes as possessing "tactical genius" wouldn't leave her perimeter unfortified. According to Furyou, the Sisters seem to forget to make any preparations prior to the Space Wolves arriving. He portrayed the Sisters badly, I'm afraid.
Also, "choose what you like" and "You can't ignore the written material" are rather contradictory statements, don't you think?
Hm yeah, but you have read the book, you choose to ignore it...Book is still there, and I like it...
Fluff is officially in the cloud, do you agree ?
I think a problem with this statement is that.... 40k's fluff has never been consistent. One book Space Marines are invincible tanks of doom the next guardsmen are wasting them with such eae you would reguard SM as a waste. Sometimes Eldar are deceptive mamen that are brilliant if a bit egotistical, the next, they are bumbling fools stupider than marines and humans in general. To be earnest, a cannonesse giving up hope is just absolutely terrible. If this is true, I have to concur, the Sisters of Battle had a terrible portrayal (which is sadly something SoB in particular suffer from). That being said, it does exist just as much as any bit of lore and can be regarded. I think the most important detail is considering the possibilities. How many pieces of evidence point towards SoB and Space Wolves not getting along and how many to working together. In these cases, I'd argue the best relationship is the one that should be made alliances.
Finally, I must say that FT might actually be exterminated. SM aren't as paramount as stated. Heck, there was a SoB army that whiped out a SM chapter for heresy. FT are particularly tainted and the only reason they haven't been whiped out is either because, A. Although they are heretical, they get the job done (SWx1000) or B. imperium is desperate for men
TiamatRoar wrote: I think one of the problems here is some people choosing what they WANT to believe the sisters feel about the various space marine factions
Not really. I, for one, am going by the codex fluff of their characterisation. Extremely zealous? They won't like the lack of faith of the Marines. Regularly used to purge Marine Chapters? They will see Marines as falliable, which worsens the previous problem. We also have a case of them outright going to war with the Space Wolves, which will naturally be a big issue in that specific relationship.
Also, could we avoid making statements like that? I'm not just debating this way because I want it to be that way (though I do prefer that characterisation of the Sisters), I also take this view because I believe that the evidence supports it. Similiarly, I think that you too think that the evidence supports your view, and aren't just debating out of some petty dislike towards the opposing view.
TiamatRoar wrote: At this point we have a fluff source which contradicts that belief that the sisters (bood of asaheim)
Which also has a Canoness of all people losing her faith, so I wouldn't consider it a particularly reliable source.
TiamatRoar wrote: a fluff source that saids they fight alongside some of them (6th Ed Space Marines Black Templares)
But I don't think that anybody ever disputed that they can fight together well, just that Sisters have their issues with Marines, and more serious ones with the SW. As well as the Templars, we have a story about the SoB teaming up with the Salamanders too.
TiamatRoar wrote: a game rule that says they're allies of convenience (NOT Desperate Allies)
This being the same rule that had Templars and SoB as desperate allies, with the Templars preferring xenos over Sisters?
TiamatRoar wrote: and several events which do NOT state the sisters' feelings on the subject or directly state how that affected their relationship with the marines in question, of which you can only SPECULATE the resulting effect on their relationship.
But it isn't just speculation. We know that the Sisters are some of the most devoted, hardcore Emperor worshipers around, and we know that Marines do not subscribe the this belief. What's the logical conclusion, here? Tension between the two. We also know that the Sisters actively fought with the near-pagan Space Wolves after they attacked an Ecclesiarchy force. Again, what are the Sisters, dedicated zealots, going to think about this? It'll certainly make them dislike the Space Wolves, to put it lighlty.
TiamatRoar wrote: Even if you argue "Everyone distrusts the wolves, too! The fluff says so!", that doesn't change the fact that the sisters are never specifically stated to have a greater distrust than everyone else (who's all allies of convenience at worse with the Wolves), so all one can do is SPECULATE as such.
Again, just because nothing is spelled out doesn't make logical conclusions any less logical. In her old fluff, we were also never told if Praxedes was killed on the world the Tyranids took. It's presented as ambigous. But, come on, we the readers know that she was almost certainly killed, barring some totally unforseen miracle.
TiamatRoar wrote: If someone wants their sisters to be distrustful of Space Marines and waste time looking over their shoulders worried their marine allies will shoot them in the middle of battle against chaos marines even in the "best" of circumstances, then that's their prerogative.
But that's not what's being said. That issue was only raised in regards to the SW specifically, in which the tensions between the two probably would be high enough to justify that. With the average Marine Chapter, though, I think we all broadly agree that the Sisters can fight alongside them, depsite some issues they have with Marines.
Troike wrote: Not really. I, for one, am going by the codex fluff of their characterisation. Extremely zealous? They won't like the lack of faith of the Marines.
Speculation. You say "they WON'T like marines", but that's a far cry from an official source saying "They DON'T like marine". Again, there is no fluff source that directly says they dislike all marines. One can speculate that they do based on their zealousness, but one can also speculate that they don't. So this can't be used to argue for a more "lore friendly" allies matrix because it's up to the eye of the beholder.
Regularly used to purge Marine Chapters? They will see Marines as falliable, which worsens the previous problem.
Also speculation on how they might feel due to a certain situation. There is a big difference between someone claiming "they WILL see Marines as fallable" instead of an actual source that says "They see Marines as falliable".
We also have a case of them outright going to war with the Space Wolves, which will naturally be a big issue in that specific relationship.
Again, "Which WILL naturally be a big issue in that specific relationship". Speculation. You can't use this as conclusive proof.
Also, could we avoid making statements like that? I'm not just debating this way because I want it to be that way (though I do prefer that characterisation of the Sisters), I also take this view because I believe that the evidence supports it.
And I'm saying it doesn't count as evidence because it's speculation, not evidence. Again, the moment you have to say "they WILL do whatever" or "they WON'T like whatever", then that "evidence" is just your own personal speculation.
Similiarly, I think that you too think that the evidence supports your view, and aren't just debating out of some petty dislike towards the opposing view.
It's true that I too am guilty of speculative evidence that shouldn't count, although I mainly present it to show that where one speculates the sisters "won't" like Marines, another person can speculate that they "will". Therefore, both speculations should be thrown out, as should all speculations, because those are just speculations.
In looking at ACTUAL non-speculative evidence, we have the sisters being listed as "allies of convenience" with the wolves and... well, that's about it. We've never seen a fluff situation where they've allied with each other so there's no hard evidence either way. However, with the official source saying they are allies of convenience, burden of proof should fall on those people who want to CHANGE what GW currently says, because they're the ones trying to change the direct word from the studio. And speculation is not proof. You can't say the sisters being desperate allies with the wolves is more "Lore friendly" without an actual case of the sisters being desperate allies with the wolves. You can only say "Oh, I think based on my personal opinion of how the sisters would feel about various events, they'd be desperate allies with the wolves". That's different from Lore Friendly in the context of this thread (which assumedly is referring to GW's published lore). Again, that's just friendly to YOUR lore (IE, your ideas of how you personally think the sisters would feel about various events in absence of any source directly stating as such).
Which also has a Canoness of all people losing her faith, so I wouldn't consider it a particularly reliable source.
Again, your own personal opinion. One where other people obviously disagree with you.
But I don't think that anybody ever disputed that they can fight together well, just that Sisters have their issues with Marines, and more serious ones with the SW. As well as the Templars, we have a story about the SoB teaming up with the Salamanders too.
Right. However, in deciding on a "lore friendly" allies chart, after throwing out the speculations, we only have the "results" left as evidence. In these cases, we have actual hard-defined cases of Sisters working alongside Marines as allies of convenience at worst (and possibly Battle Brothers at best).
This being the same rule that had Templars and SoB as desperate allies, with the Templars preferring xenos over Sisters?
Again. This is arguably not the case anymore. Because we don't know where the mistake lies (is the mistake with Codex: Space Marines, which specifically stated they fight "side by side"? Or is the mistake with the Allies Matrix? Does it even apply anymore now that BT no longer have their own codex?), the sisters being desperate allies with the Black Templars marines can not be used as evidence for anything. It's now compromised evidence.
But it isn't just speculation. We know that the Sisters are some of the most devoted, hardcore Emperor worshipers around, and we know that Marines do not subscribe the this belief. What's the logical conclusion, here? Tension between the two.
We know that Tau are filthy xenos. We know that orks are CRAZY. We know that many Eldar see Dark Eldar as the path of damnation (something the fluff specifically states).
Yet marines HAVE allied as Battle Brothers with the Tau in an actual fluff case (and thus got slapped that way in the allies matrix. GW people when asked actually basically said "Um, Marines and Tau have fought alongside each other before" when asked about it). Yet the Imperial Guard can ally with Orks as allies of convenience (and have in actual fluff sources). Yet Eldar and Dark Eldar in some cases will ally as battle brothers too (Corsairs, for one thing). In this large galaxy, what seems "logical" at first glance might not end up being the case or applying.
Again, the allies matrix is clearly the BEST of situations ("best" meaning a situation that will best force two factions to ally with each other). I'll ignore the whole fact that what's logical to one person might not be logical to another (IE, speculation) and humour this. Maybe there is tension between the sisters and the marines. Maybe, logically speaking, they will hate marines 90% of the time. However, unless you can also logically say that they'd act as Desperate Allies to marines even in the "best" situation, this argument still fails.
Furthermore, your logic might be wrong. MANY MANY people think Eldar would "logically" never ally with Dark Eldar. But their logic was mistaken, as some Eldar and Dark Eldar really don't hate each other so much as follow different life styles. Many MANY people think Marines would never ally with filthy Tau xenos, but their logic is mistaken, as the two tactically can (and have) worked together when they needed to. One reason why I keep saying "You have to throw out the speculation" is that without conclusive PROOF of an ACTUAL case (where the sisters allied with wolves as Desperate Allies in a fluff battle), your logic may as well be wrong, too.
Yes, I don't have conclusive proof they are allies of convenience, either. However GW says so, so burden of proof should lie on the one that wants to change that.
We also know that the Sisters actively fought with the near-pagan Space Wolves after they attacked an Ecclesiarchy force. Again, what are the Sisters, dedicated zealots, going to think about this? It'll certainly make them dislike the Space Wolves, to put it lighlty.
Again, speculation. "It'll certainly make them dislike the Space Wolves" instead of "It DID certainly make them dislike the Space Wolves". "Dislike" does not mean "Desperate Allies", anyways. Since when did Marines LIKE Tau, for example? Or Imperial Guard like orks?
Again, just because nothing is spelled out doesn't make logical conclusions any less logical. In her old fluff, we were also never told if Praxedes was killed on the world the Tyranids took. It's presented as ambigous. But, come on, we the readers know that she was almost certainly killed, barring some totally unforseen miracle.
Again, people disagree with your logic. Hell, GW apparently disagrees with your logic based on their current allies matrix. Again, this is why you can't use "speculation". Maybe an allies matrix where the SoB are desperate allies with the wolves is friendly to YOUR lore. It certainly isn't friendly to mine or to several other posters here, nor is there conclusive proof that it is friendly to GW's lore because GW never said anything directly on the matter (with the glaring exception of the fact that the current allies matrix has them being allies of convenience).
Eeeeh.... I wouldn't say best relations necessarily. If memory serve me, BT still use their old alliance chart. Whatever we say, SoB and BT apparently hate each other that much even though they are one of the few chapters that view the Emperor as a god? Why is it that Space Marines are battle brothers yet a faction like BA (which fought alongside necrons at one point) won't? Why is it that Tyranids can't even have allies to make a mock genestealer cult? (heck desperate allies would work explaining that the cult knows they will get nommed and want to but they feel they must help them whittle down the foes). and the next one is a big one for me.
Why is it that IG are allies of convenience with Chaos Daemons and marines? IG wouldn't work like that. At best they would be desperate allies not trusting one another. Then why so? Well it's rather obvious. They are trying to make the Lost and the Damned (traitor guardsmen) possible. Yet why is it only allies of convenience then? Shouldn't they be battle brothers? Why are they not. The allies chart is in many cases a mess in terms of what it wants to be.
In terms of the cannonesse... it seems most people don't really like how she was portrayed. Problem with the book is it isn't really evidence nor is it not evidence. It could be 100% fact. It could be 90% fact with the SW changing some parts up. It could not be even slightly true and actually all just alpha legion xD
TiamatRoar wrote: One can speculate that they do based on their zealousness, but one can also speculate that they don't.
This would be an illogical speculation. Why would the Sisters, extreme zealots, have no dislike of people on their side who have beliefs that are opposed to their own?
TiamatRoar wrote: Also speculation on how they might feel due to a certain situation. There is a big difference between someone claiming "they WILL see Marines as fallable" instead of an actual source that says "They see Marines as falliable".
Again, I'm not sure where you're getting this from. How would they not think that Marines may have issues after they've purged multiple rogue chapters?
TiamatRoar wrote: Again, "Which WILL naturally be a big issue in that specific relationship". Speculation. You can't use this as conclusive proof.
They fought a war over religion. That would result in tension. Honestly, at this point it seems like your counter-arguments seem to be that because the fluff has not said anything outright, then it must be be ambigous. Tell me, how would the Sisters feel towards a Marine chapter who attacked an Ecclesiarchy detatchment sent to inspect their faith, and then engaged in a conflict with the Sisters over this incident? You seem to be acting as if they would just let this incident go, or not be particularly upset over it.
TiamatRoar wrote: And I'm saying it doesn't count as evidence because it's speculation, not evidence. Again, the moment you have to say "they WILL do whatever" or "they WON'T like whatever", then that "evidence" is just your own personal speculation.
Based on lots of codex fluff, as opposed to an allies matrix with noted oddities in syncing with the fluff.
TiamatRoar wrote: It's true that I too am guilty of speculative evidence that shouldn't count, although I mainly present it to show that where one speculates the sisters "won't" like Marines, another person can speculate that they "will". Therefore, both speculations should be thrown out, as should all speculations, because those are just speculations.
But we know that the Sisters would dislike the differing beliefs of the Marines. Therefore, we can logically conclude that there would be tension between the two.
I'm not even quite sure if we disagree on this. I'm not arguing that they should be desperate allies with most Marines, convinience works fine. It represents thier differing beliefs, but still acknowleges that the two are able to work together just fine. It's the Wolves that are the main issue, here, it would seem.
TiamatRoar wrote: We've never seen a fluff situation where they've allied with each other so there's no hard evidence either way.
But we do have a situation where the zealous Sisters go to war over the SW refusing to let the Ecclesiarchy investigate their religion. To the Sisters, this will be a massive red flag, and an admission of guilt.
TiamatRoar wrote: Which also has a Canoness of all people losing her faith, so I wouldn't consider it a particularly reliable source.
A Canoness is the most faithful in an organisation highly reputed for its faith. She would have also fought in, and led many of her Order's wars. Tell me, how does it make sense that she would suddenly completely lose her faith during a war against some heretics? Who, according to Furyou, were just some cultists and a handful of Plague Marines.
This doesn't change that that table was written at the time in which the Templars did have a codex, and certainly weren't desperate allies with the SoB in the fluff, since they had worked together before. Therefore, the table, which is still the same as when it was written, is of questionable validity in a fluff debate.
TiamatRoar wrote: We know that Tau are filthy xenos. We know that orks are CRAZY. We know that many Eldar see Dark Eldar as the path of damnation (something the fluff specifically states).
Yet marines HAVE allied as Battle Brothers with the Tau in an actual fluff case (and thus got slapped that way in the allies matrix. GW people when asked actually basically said "Um, Marines and Tau have fought alongside each other before" when asked about it). Yet the Imperial Guard can ally with Orks as allies of convenience (and have in actual fluff sources). Yet Eldar and Dark Eldar in some cases will ally as battle brothers too (Corsairs, for one thing). In this large galaxy, what seems "logical" at first glance might not end up being the case or applying.
Again, the allies matrix is clearly the BEST of situations ("best" meaning a situation that will best force two factions to ally with each other). I'll ignore the whole fact that what's logical to one person might not be logical to another (IE, speculation) and humour this. Maybe there is tension between the sisters and the marines. Maybe, logically speaking, they will hate marines 90% of the time. However, unless you can also logically say that they'd act as Desperate Allies to marines even in the "best" situation, this argument still fails.
I'll point to my above point about the BT-SoB relationship indicating that the allies table has its flaws, again, just so you don't think I'm skipping over this part.
TiamatRoar wrote: Yes, I don't have conclusive proof they are allies of convenience, either. However GW says so, so burden of proof should lie on the one that wants to change that.
And isn't relgious warfare rather strong proof that the allies matrix doesn't match with the fluff?
TiamatRoar wrote: Again, speculation. "It'll certainly make them dislike the Space Wolves" instead of "It DID certainly make them dislike the Space Wolves". "Dislike" does not mean "Desperate Allies", anyways. Since when did Marines LIKE Tau, for example? Or Imperial Guard like orks?
Given what we know about how the SoB feel about heretics and those who defy the church (see: their allies rating with Chaos Space Marines, and their regular burning of heretics), it's obvious that a Space Marine chapter refusing to submit for Ecclesiarchial inspection of their citizens, killing the clergymen who were trying to investigate and then subsequently warring with the Sisters themselves would create an extremely strong dislike.
Why, just out of interest? Do you think that the Sisters would forgive and forget regarding their relgion-sparked war against the Space Wolves? Do you think that the Space Wolves would look kindly on the Sisters for coming into their home territory and trying to exterminate them becuase of their long-held beliefs?
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StarTrotter wrote: Problem with the book is it isn't really evidence nor is it not evidence. It could be 100% fact. It could be 90% fact with the SW changing some parts up. It could not be even slightly true and actually all just alpha legion xD
Personally, I'd imagine that it was another case of a writer only having a passing knowledge of the SoB, and not a deeper understanding of their mindset. To be fair, I can't wholly blame him for it, given the obscurity of SoB fluff these days.
StarTrotter wrote: Eeeeh.... I wouldn't say best relations necessarily. If memory serve me, BT still use their old alliance chart. Whatever we say, SoB and BT apparently hate each other that much even though they are one of the few chapters that view the Emperor as a god?
Your memory might not be serving you. I haven't seen any conclusive proof anywhere this is the case. If someone can point it out to me, I'd be glad, but until then, people need to stop bringing up the BT Desperate Allies thing because we don't know if it still applies or not.
Why is it that Space Marines are battle brothers yet a faction like BA (which fought alongside necrons at one point) won't?
Who knows? That doesn't prove or disprove the "best" situation theory. Perhaps the "best" situation the Blood Angels can ever hope for is allies of convenience with other marines. Why? We don't know, but them's the breaks.
Why is it that Tyranids can't even have allies to make a mock genestealer cult? (heck desperate allies would work explaining that the cult knows they will get nommed and want to but they feel they must help them whittle down the foes). and the next one is a big one for me.
Maybe GW decided that Guard doesn't represent gene stealer cults and shouldn't represent gene stealer cults? Again, WE DON'T KNOW, therefore, we should throw out this question.
...that said, they can ally "come the apocalypse." The arrival of Tyrannids to a gene stealer planet is the apocalypse. Therefore, you technically CAN ally gene stealer guards with the tyrannids in that situation. You just have to use Apocalypse rules, because it's an apocalypse.
Why is it that IG are allies of convenience with Chaos Daemons and marines? IG wouldn't work like that. At best they would be desperate allies not trusting one another. Then why so? Well it's rather obvious. They are trying to make the Lost and the Damned (traitor guardsmen) possible. Yet why is it only allies of convenience then? Shouldn't they be battle brothers? Why are they not. The allies chart is in many cases a mess in terms of what it wants to be.
I agree this one appears to be a mistake on some level. However, after throwing out the Black Templars one (because there is no conclusive answer either way on if it still applies, to my knowledge), this is really the only particularly glaring exception to the "best" theory.
In terms of the cannonesse... it seems most people don't really like how she was portrayed. Problem with the book is it isn't really evidence nor is it not evidence. It could be 100% fact. It could be 90% fact with the SW changing some parts up. It could not be even slightly true and actually all just alpha legion xD
Well, if we're going to throw out everything based on the whole "everything in WH40k Fluff is presented as a myth that may or may not be true", then all we're left is "GW lists SoBs and SWs as allies of convenience".
This would be an illogical speculation. Why would the Sisters, extreme zealots, have no dislike of people on their side who have beliefs that are opposed to their own?
If they hypothetically do "dislike" them even in the most logical of circumstances. That doesn't mean allies of desperation. I could attempt to bother arguing what's logical or not regarding likes and dislikes, but that'd be off-topic.
Again, I'm not sure where you're getting this from. How would they not think that Marines may have issues after they've purged multiple rogue chapters?
Again, still doesn't mean "desperate allies" with every marine. Imperial Guard go rogue all the time too yet sisters are battle brothers with them and fought alongside them in various fluff cases.
They fought a war over religion. That would result in tension. Honestly, at this point it seems like your counter-arguments seem to be that because the fluff has not said anything outright, then it must be be ambigous. Tell me, how would the Sisters feel towards a Marine chapter who attacked an Ecclesiarchy detatchment sent to inspect their faith, and then engaged in a conflict with the Sisters over this incident? You seem to be acting as if they would just let this incident go, or not be particularly upset over it.
The statement, "let sleeping dogs lie", is an alternative way of saying "let it go", just so you know.
Based on lots of (my own logic of) codex fluff, as opposed to an allies matrix with noted oddities in syncing with the fluff.
People think the allies matrix is odd because it has marines as battle brothers with the tau, or elder as battle brothers with the dark elder. They're wrong. The only really glaring oddity in there, once you remove the Black Templars (because again, we don't know if it counts or not) are the Imperial Guard and Chaos relationships.
But we know that the Sisters would dislike the differing beliefs of the Marines. Therefore, we can logically conclude that there would be tension between the two.
Tension does not necessarily mean Desperate Allies, as proven by various fluff cases of Marines teaming up with Tau or Tau allying as allies of convenience with the Guard (we can't say for sure if the Tau IG relations in that chart are taking into account Gue'Vesa, but there are fluff cases of Imperium IG allying with Tau and Eldar as allies of convenience, often IMMEDIATELY AFTER KILLING EACH OTHER. The Tau case had the guard and Tau immediately shoot each other before the guard realized the Tyrannids were around. Also see the 2nd battle of Tallarm where the Guards and Eldar were KILLING each other only seconds before Chaos showed up, and then WOOSH, allies of convenience instead of Desperate Allies (because they didn't fight using One Eye Open, as shown by how they even signed pacts of friendship afterwards ).
I'm not even quite sure if we disagree on this. I'm not arguing that they should be desperate allies with most Marines, convinience works fine. It represents thier differing beliefs, but still acknowleges that the two are able to work together just fine. It's the Wolves that are the main issue, here, it would seem.
That's fine. Then let's get things back to just the wolves, then.
But we do have a situation where the zealous Sisters go to war over the SW refusing to let the Ecclesiarchy investigate their religion. To the Sisters, this will be a massive red flag, and an admission of guilt.
Are the sisters even MORE zealous than the Ecclesiarchy itself? The Ecclesiarchy that "let sleeping dogs lie"? Maybe they are, maybe they aren't. I'm sure they're more zealous than the average ecclesiarch, but that doesn't mean they'd necessarily be GUARANTEED to continue to be paranoid when the rest of the Ecclesiarchy "let sleeping dogs lie".
A Canoness is the most faithful in an organisation highly reputed for its faith. She would have also fought in, and led many of her Order's wars. Tell me, how does it make sense that she would suddenly completely lose her faith during a war against some heretics? Who, according to Furyou, were just some cultists and a handful of Plague Marines.
Apparently it makes enough sense that GW didn't say "Don't publish this load of bull gak."
This doesn't change that that table was written at the time in which the Templars did have a codex, and certainly weren't desperate allies with the SoB in the fluff, since they had worked together before. Therefore, the table, which is still the same as when it was written, is of questionable validity in a fluff debate.
I'll point to my above point about the BT-SoB relationship indicating that the allies table has its flaws, again, just so you don't think I'm skipping over this part.
People make mistakes. GW's writers are only human. They've (possibly) corrected this mistake. We've yet to see them "correct" their possible mistake of making the SoB be allies of convenience with the SW, though.
Maybe they did make a mistake in that regards, too. However, burden of proof should lie with the ones trying to prove that, then. If one can't prove that GW should change the SoB and SW relationship to desperate allies, then it shouldn't be changed. Well, that's my opinion at least. "GW says they're allies of convenience in absence of any fluff case of the two teaming up either way, so it's up to you to PROVE otherwise." If you disagree at this point where burden of proof should lie with that, then we might as well drop it.
And isn't relgious warfare rather strong proof that the allies matrix doesn't match with the fluff?
Nope. Not when the organization in charge of that religion "let sleeping dogs lie".
Given what we know about how the SoB feel about heretics and those who defy the church (see: their allies rating with Chaos Space Marines, and their regular burning of heretics), it's obvious that a Space Marine chapter refusing to submit for Ecclesiarchial inspection of their citizens, killing the clergymen who were trying to investigate and then subsequently warring with the Sisters themselves would create an extremely strong dislike.
Maybe. But again, dislike does not mean desperate allies. Wolves can't stand Dark Angels yet they still fought as allies of convenience in the novel, without keeping one eye open (far as I could tell).
Why, just out of interest? Do you think that the Sisters would forgive and forget regarding their relgion-sparked war against the Space Wolves?
Do you think that the Space Wolves would look kindly on the Sisters for coming into their home territory and trying to exterminate them becuase of their long-held beliefs?[/
"Let sleeping dogs lie" is what you say when you say "Forget" (not necessarily "forgive", but eh, close enough). I think it sounds kinda hard to swallow, too, but again, you can argue what someone MIGHT feel about something, but you can't argue with the results. That said, even if they didn't "forgive" them, the Space Wolves never "forgave" the Dark Angels for Lion sucker punching their primarch yet they still functioned as allies of convenience in the novels. Sure, there was tension and they disliked each other, but "one eye open"? Nope. They weren't particularly desperate either, I think.
Troike wrote:Blood of Asaheim? The same book that has a Canoness losing her faith, only to have it restored by some Space Wolves? And Sisters who go around letting plague victims into their perimeter, in the midst of a Nurglite incursion? If that's the alternate version, then I think I vastly prefer the studio fluff version, thanks.
Small excerpt:
"Blood of Asaheim may not have whorish, gambling Sisters... but it does have incompetent, lazy, treacherous and overall faithless Sisters. Even the Canoness says "I had lost faith and thought we were going to die until you arrived" - talking about an under-strength squad of Grey Hunters, who apparently are so awesome that they teach a Canoness of the Sisters of Battle to believe in the Emperor again.
By the way, these are Wounded Heart sisters - they faced down the 13th black crusade, yet here they doubt, lose faith and give up because of a horde of cultists led by three plague marines. Three."
There's also a thread about this over on Bolter & Chaindsword, and how it seems like part of a bigger problem with BL.
And this is precisely why I tend to keep a mile-wide distance from those novels. It's sad that books like these, and the resulting effect they have on the fandom, actually made me appreciate Space Marines less rather than more, just because of how some writers use them.
Void__Dragon wrote:The Emperor himself sanctioned Space Marines. He created them. Officially, they are not abhumans.
For them to condemn Space Marines simply by their biology is to defy the Emperor's will itself.
Troike wrote:And that's why they're tolerated as much as they are, see. They have that direct connection to the Emperor. But, at the same time, they (or most of them) reject him as a god, instead seeing him as a man.
And this is actually a thing that got its own fluffbox in the 2E Codex, just to address this contradictory perception of the Astartes! It's not like the writers at GW themselves did not notice this apparent conflict.
"There has been constant conflict between the Adeptus Ministorum and the Chapters of the Adeptus Astartes since Fatidicus first began preaching on Terra. They are rivals in power like any Imperial organisations, but more importantly, their beliefs differ at a very fundamental level. On the one hand the Space Marines, above all others, can truly be called the children of the Emperor. They are wholly his creation and even contain elements of the Emperor's own genetic structure. [...]
However, the Space Marine Chapters do not adhere to the teachings of the Ecclesiarchy. Their beliefs vary wildly from Chapter to Chapter, worshipping the Emperor and their Primarchs in differing degrees. In many ways they are heretics with their own traditions, ceremonies and beliefs, some of which are very barbaric compared to the well-ordered masses of the Ecclesiarchy. [...]
Also, it is a matter of debate whether the Space Marines are truly human at all. Their genetically engineered bodies are far superior to a normal human, enough to make them a separate race if one wished to interpret their differences so. How can any self-respecting Confessor or Cardinal relate to a monstrous giant who can spit acid, crush a man's skull with one hand and practices crude acts of blood sacrifice?"
DarthMarko wrote:Fluff is fluff, you choose what you like....Wright did a good job...You can't ignore the writen material...
Apparently this freelancing novel author can ignore what it says in decades of Codex fluff, so why should his own opinions and writings be held in any higher regard?
StarTrotter wrote:Heck, there was a SoB army that whiped out a SM chapter for heresy.
Not just one!
StarTrotter wrote:FT are particularly tainted and the only reason they haven't been whiped out is either because, A. Although they are heretical, they get the job done (SWx1000) or B. imperium is desperate for men
I think it's chiefly because the setting is "stuck" at 999.M41.
"In the crucible of all-out war, the grisly truth, hidden for so many centuries by the Flesh Tearers, is finally evident to their comrades-in-arms across Armageddon. Despite a minimum of casualties, it would seem that the entire Chapter is close to being declared excommunicatus." - Armageddon3 website
Even if GW would be willing to purge this Chapter (which is debatable), they couldn't, as it would have to happen after M41 - a place GW refused to go ever since coming up with the setting.
Troike wrote:As well as the Templars, we have a story about the SoB teaming up with the Salamanders too.
And not just them.
"Occasionally the Battle Sisters will have common cause with the firce Space Marines of the Adeptus Astartes. Although the relationship between these two organisations is only civil at best, the Space Marines and Battle Sisters both respect each other's prowess and skill at arms. Many times, the foes of the Imperium have been eradicated by a combined attack from these two elite forces." - 2E C:SoB
As I said earlier, I would give SoB+C:SM the "Battle Brothers" status, if that wouldn't make the standard alliance sound as close as SoB+BT, something which I believe should really be above the average. That, and C:SM will (due to it encompassing a whole lot of different Chapters) include Chapters the Sisters get along well with, and Chapters where this is not the case. So, it is a compromise just like with the Blood Angels and their Successors.
I believe what the above quote says is that the Sisters are generally sceptical of SM, but that they can get along well and even appreciate their presence depending on how the Astartes behave (level of arrogance, Chapter traditions, secrecy, geneseed corruption, etc).
StarTrotter wrote: Problem with the book is it isn't really evidence nor is it not evidence. It could be 100% fact. It could be 90% fact with the SW changing some parts up. It could not be even slightly true and actually all just alpha legion xD
Personally, I'd imagine that it was another case of a writer only having a passing knowledge of the SoB, and not a deeper understanding of their mindset. To be fair, I can't wholly blame him for it, given the obscurity of SoB fluff these days.
To be completely honest, I agree with you there. Alas SoB have become one of the vaguest factions that has a codex in the game now which is rather dissapointing. At the same time though, it is established fluff. That being said, claiming this fluff means SoB and Space Wolves are best buds is flawed simply because fluff is contradicting and not always true.
StarTrotter wrote: Eeeeh.... I wouldn't say best relations necessarily. If memory serve me, BT still use their old alliance chart. Whatever we say, SoB and BT apparently hate each other that much even though they are one of the few chapters that view the Emperor as a god?
Your memory might not be serving you. I haven't seen any conclusive proof anywhere this is the case. If someone can point it out to me, I'd be glad, but until then, people need to stop bringing up the BT Desperate Allies thing because we don't know if it still applies or not.
Why is it that Space Marines are battle brothers yet a faction like BA (which fought alongside necrons at one point) won't?
Who knows? That doesn't prove or disprove the "best" situation theory. Perhaps the "best" situation the Blood Angels can ever hope for is allies of convenience with other marines. Why? We don't know, but them's the breaks.
Why is it that Tyranids can't even have allies to make a mock genestealer cult? (heck desperate allies would work explaining that the cult knows they will get nommed and want to but they feel they must help them whittle down the foes). and the next one is a big one for me.
Maybe GW decided that Guard doesn't represent gene stealer cults and shouldn't represent gene stealer cults? Again, WE DON'T KNOW, therefore, we should throw out this question.
...that said, they can ally "come the apocalypse." The arrival of Tyrannids to a gene stealer planet is the apocalypse. Therefore, you technically CAN ally gene stealer guards with the tyrannids in that situation. You just have to use Apocalypse rules, because it's an apocalypse.
Why is it that IG are allies of convenience with Chaos Daemons and marines? IG wouldn't work like that. At best they would be desperate allies not trusting one another. Then why so? Well it's rather obvious. They are trying to make the Lost and the Damned (traitor guardsmen) possible. Yet why is it only allies of convenience then? Shouldn't they be battle brothers? Why are they not. The allies chart is in many cases a mess in terms of what it wants to be.
I agree this one appears to be a mistake on some level. However, after throwing out the Black Templars one (because there is no conclusive answer either way on if it still applies, to my knowledge), this is really the only particularly glaring exception to the "best" theory.
In terms of the cannonesse... it seems most people don't really like how she was portrayed. Problem with the book is it isn't really evidence nor is it not evidence. It could be 100% fact. It could be 90% fact with the SW changing some parts up. It could not be even slightly true and actually all just alpha legion xD
Well, if we're going to throw out everything based on the whole "everything in WH40k Fluff is presented as a myth that may or may not be true", then all we're left is "GW lists SoBs and SWs as allies of convenience".
It probably isn't. I haven't been able to read the codex fully and depend on the internet (with all its inaccuracies) to understand it all. Alas, college has made it hard for me to get that Space Marine book or even rip through it. Also, even if it doesn't apply now, it applied at the start and still exists in the rulebook without a single attempt to faq it. And the question is why? IF this is supposed to be the best relationship then why did they even exist as desperate allies? Also really the apocolypse excuese? If we want to argue that then daemons should rarely exist outside of the apocolypse as well and why is the chapter master in this mini skirmish!? Yeah i still don't get the ig one.... I just... anyways....
I only mentioned that because the argument of this one book is exactly one book. And to argue that somebody is ignoring it to suit there purpose is just as flawed as claiming the book has no merit. It's both a blessing and curse of 40k everything and nothing is truth.
Also, if memory serves me yet again, isn't the rivalry between SW and DA not always that bad? It sometimes is but sometimes it is more of a friendly rivalry.
It probably isn't. I haven't been able to read the codex fully and depend on the internet (with all its inaccuracies) to understand it all. Alas, college has made it hard for me to get that Space Marine book or even rip through it. Also, even if it doesn't apply now, it applied at the start and still exists in the rulebook without a single attempt to faq it. And the question is why? IF this is supposed to be the best relationship then why did they even exist as desperate allies?
People make mistakes. GW's writers are only human. They've (possibly) corrected this mistake. We've yet to see them "correct" their possible mistake of making the SoB be allies of convenience with the SW, though.
Maybe they did make a mistake in that regards, too. However, burden of proof should lie with the ones trying to prove that, then. If one can't prove that GW should change the SoB and SW relationship to desperate allies, then it shouldn't be changed. Well, that's my opinion at least. "GW says they're allies of convenience in absence of any fluff case of the two teaming up either way, so it's up to you to PROVE otherwise unless GW says otherwise (which they might have done regarding Black Templars).", basically.
Also really the apocolypse excuese? If we want to argue that then daemons should rarely exist outside of the apocolypse as well and why is the chapter master in this mini skirmish!? Yeah i still don't get the ig one.... I just... anyways....
Well, it was only a possibility. Like I said, we don't know whether or not GW was taking into account gene-stealer guard. Me personally, I think guard make absolutely atrocious stand-ins for a gene-stealer cult.
Also, if memory serves me yet again, isn't the rivalry between SW and DA not always that bad? It sometimes is but sometimes it is more of a friendly rivalry.
Well, they don't HATE each other, but there are still obvious tensions when it came up in the novel. The main point being that past aggressions (which the sisters had with the space wolves), while possibly causing tension, wouldn't necessarily cause enough tension that they couldn't even work together without keeping "one eye open", without an actual fluff event proving that to be the case. In the absence of an actual story/novel/codex snippet/whatever saying "Sisters don't ally with wolves except under desperate situations, and even then they'd always be watchful lest their allies shoot them in the back", you can't say the two being desperate allies is more "lore friendly" than what GW Studio's own official allied matrix says.
TiamatRoar wrote: If they hypothetically do "dislike" them even in the most logical of circumstances. That doesn't mean allies of desperation.
But this would be a rather intense dislike. The actions of the Wolves are little (if any) better than those of heretics, really. They refuse to accept the Imperial Creed, spread their deviant beliefs to Imperial citizens and took up arms against His holy warriors.
TiamatRoar wrote: The statement, "let sleeping dogs lie", is an alternative way of saying "let it go", just so you know.
But that's not the same as saying "we forgive you for practicing and spreading heretical beliefs, shooting down some of our clergy and fighting a war with our soldiers". What seems to have happened is that the Ecclesiarchy realised that they weren't going to get anywhere with that war, and that it wasn't worth the effort, so they backed off. This by no means indicates that they forgave the Space Wolves for their actions (in fact, their acts of resistance would have confirmed any suspicions the Ecclesiarchy had), just that they didn't see dealing with them as feasible. The feelings are still there, they just don't feel that they can act upon them.
TiamatRoar wrote: Are the sisters even MORE zealous than the Ecclesiarchy itself?
I never implied that. The two organisations would probably feel the same way about the situation, in fact. I was talking about the Sisters specifically because they are the subject matter here, since they're the ones listed on the allies matrix.
TiamatRoar wrote: Apparently it makes enough sense that GW didn't say "Don't publish this load of bull gak."
You may be putting a little too much faith in the control exerted over BL authors, here. Goto got away with a lot, don't forget. Then there's the (temporarily) heretical GK in that Ben Counter book, while the codexes say that none have fallen, the mixed-sex Schola in that Cain novel when a codex says that they're gender segregated... Honestly, a BL author can "get away" with a fair bit in regards to deviating from what's written in the codexes. So no, for the reasons I laid out, it does not make sense. One of the most faithful people around (within an organisation that spends its days praying and the members of which will willingly form into what are arguably suicde squads if they feel that they have failed even slighly) who is also a veteran at warfare does not lose their beliefs just because a war is going badly, only to have it suddenly restored by some Space Wolves.
TiamatRoar wrote: People make mistakes. GW's writers are only human. They've (possibly) corrected this mistake. We've yet to see them "correct" their possible mistake of making the SoB be allies of convenience with the SW, though.
Then how do we know that the SW one wasn't a "mistake" either? GW didn't really actively fix the BT-SoB thing, they just rolled the BTs into the Marine codex and the more fluff friendly allies rating with the SoB (may have, if they're not still using their own list) was a happy side-effect. It doesn't change the fact that when they made this thing, they had the SoB and BTs as desperate allies, despite fluff to the contrary. The Space Wolf-SoB allies levels was written at the same time as this.
Maybe they really did intend them to be allies of convinience, maybe they did think about it and decide to have them as allies of convinience. But I certainly have my doubts about whether or not is syncs with the fluff. Certainly, a strong case could be made for them being desperate allies, as has been laid out.
TiamatRoar wrote: Maybe. But again, dislike does not mean desperate allies.
I would say there's a strong case for it, given what the Wolves and Sisters did to each other here.
TiamatRoar wrote: Wolves can't stand Dark Angels yet they still fought as allies of convenience in the novel, without keeping one eye open (far as I could tell).
TiamatRoar wrote: That said, even if they didn't "forgive" them, the Space Wolves never "forgave" the Dark Angels for Lion sucker punching their primarch yet they still functioned as allies of convenience in the novels. Sure, there was tension and they disliked each other, but "one eye open"? Nope. They weren't particularly desperate either, I think.
That's more of a rivalry, though. They fight non-lethal duels with each other when they cross paths. As far as I'm aware, one has never gone to war with the other, or tried to purge the other over differing religious beliefs.
StarTrotter wrote: Alas SoB have become one of the vaguest factions that has a codex in the game now which is rather dissapointing.
It's not that they're vague, exactly, you just need to go back and look at some older stuff. Which, admittedly, isn't the simplest thing to do. You either shell out to buy one of the old codexes, or hang around an internet forum long enough to absorb the knowledge from people who do know.
Oh trust me I know how to soak up some references to SoB over time (I blame DoW for getting me interested in SoB to begin with). What I meant was that they just really don't seem to be represented that well in the fluff that I know of recently. *apologies! Didn't realize how much the sister of battle losing faith would actually annoy me and the fact that a Marine of all things that isn't even devote to the Emperor would bring the faith back*
What seems to have happened is that the Ecclesiarchy realised that they weren't going to get anywhere with that war, and that it wasn't worth the effort, so they backed off. This by no means indicates that they forgave the Space Wolves for their actions (in fact, their acts of resistance would have confirmed any suspicions the Ecclesiarchy had), just that they didn't see dealing with them as feasible. The feelings are still there, they just don't feel that they can act upon them.
But that's not the same as saying "we forgive you for practicing and spreading heretical beliefs, shooting down some of our clergy and fighting a war with our soldiers".
But this would be a rather intense dislike. The actions of the Wolves are little (if any) better than those of heretics, really. They refuse to accept the Imperial Creed, spread their deviant beliefs to Imperial citizens and took up arms against His holy warriors.
The situation is still murky enough that they could possibly be allies of convenience instead. For one thing, until the day the Space Wolves are officially declared heretics and with things like Logan being elected overall leader of the Marines for the 13th Black Crusade, I find the idea of a sister refusing Space Wolf aid against chaos marines, and then keeping one eye open during the battle, to be absolutely ridiculously ludicrous to idiot-ball levels of "too dumb to live" lose-all-respect-at-the-sisters'-sheer-flanderized-STUPIDITY levels no matter how intense their dislike might be of each other. If I was a canoness and found that we lost a planet because my sisters failed to kill those Chaos Marines because they were too busy keeping an eye on their Space Wolf allies, I'd consider going all commissar BLAM on their ass. And then after her soul went to the Emperor and she had to explain they failed to save that planet because they were too distracted by keeping an eye on their Space Wolf allies, he'd probably glare at that sister and say "What the hell is wrong with you!?". As long as that possibility exists, then GW's official allied matrix on this matter is just as valid as someone who thinks they should be desperate allies, if not more-so (what with it being written by GW and all).
(as an aside, "spread their deviant beliefs to Imperial Citizens"? Where did that come from?)
Then how do we know that the SW one wasn't a "mistake" either? GW didn't really actively fix the BT-SoB thing, they just rolled the BTs into the Marine codex and the more fluff friendly allies rating with the SoB (may have, if they're not still using their own list) was a happy side-effect. It doesn't change the fact that when they made this thing, they had the SoB and BTs as desperate allies, despite fluff to the contrary. The Space Wolf-SoB allies levels was written at the same time as this.
Maybe they really did intend them to be allies of convinience, maybe they did think about it and decide to have them as allies of convinience. But I certainly have my doubts about whether or not is syncs with the fluff. Certainly, a strong case could be made for them being desperate allies, as has been laid out.
"A strong case" is not good enough to say one's fan-made allied matrix is more "lore friendly" than GW's. At most, you can say it MIGHT be more lore-friendly. Which IMHO is gak-all useless. I find it lame to create a "lore friendly allies chart" if the most you can say is "possibly more lore-friendly".
Solution time! Everybody becomes battle brothers. That way nobody can be treated unequally. We already get far too many loyal marine versus loyal marine and necrons allied with CSM anyways. Onwards my bro fisting tyranids and chaos daemons fighting to defend their ally SoB!
StarTrotter wrote: Solution time! Everybody becomes battle brothers. That way nobody can be treated unequally. We already get far too many loyal marine versus loyal marine and necrons allied with CSM anyways. Onwards my bro fisting tyranids and chaos daemons fighting to defend their ally SoB!
Well, it'd open up a truckton more army options on the tabletop, at least. Which is part of GW's reasoning for why they allowed such a thing in Apocalypse.
However, the topic of this thread is "Lore friendly Allies Chart".
Lore-wise, they would need to break it down into individual factions, not just broad types of armies. They would need to separate Chaos Space Marines into those devoted to each of the Ruinous Powers and Renegade Marines. You'd have to list every First Founding Chapter individually, and then all of the "official" Chapters from the various books, and then separate Codex-adherent from non-adherent Chapters, possibly by what they are Successor Chapters to.
And then you get into different builds of IG, whether it's loyalist or Traitor Guard, or is representing an all-originating-Chaos group like the Blood Pact, or a Genestealer Cult. Probably also need to list each "official" regiment individually, too, as certain regiments don't like other regiments.
And then we get into the Sisters, the AdMech, and all these other Imperial groups, who probably don't like each other.
StarTrotter wrote: Eeeeh.... I wouldn't say best relations necessarily. If memory serve me, BT still use their old alliance chart. Whatever we say, SoB and BT apparently hate each other that much even though they are one of the few chapters that view the Emperor as a god?
Your memory might not be serving you. I haven't seen any conclusive proof anywhere this is the case. If someone can point it out to me, I'd be glad, but until then, people need to stop bringing up the BT Desperate Allies thing because we don't know if it still applies or not.
pg 78 of the space marine codex, they still have their old allies position.
But as Psienesis and Happyjew have said, if you want to do a real "Lore friendly" Allies chart you would need to break down each faction pretty dam far. Heck for Tau the Septs would have different chart locations.
StarTrotter wrote: Eeeeh.... I wouldn't say best relations necessarily. If memory serve me, BT still use their old alliance chart. Whatever we say, SoB and BT apparently hate each other that much even though they are one of the few chapters that view the Emperor as a god?
Your memory might not be serving you. I haven't seen any conclusive proof anywhere this is the case. If someone can point it out to me, I'd be glad, but until then, people need to stop bringing up the BT Desperate Allies thing because we don't know if it still applies or not.
pg 78 of the space marine codex, they still have their old allies position.
Well, that's one obvious thing to fix to create a more "lore friendly" chart, at least.
But as Psienesis and Happyjew have said, if you want to do a real "Lore friendly" Allies chart you would need to break down each faction pretty dam far. Heck for Tau the Septs would have different chart locations.
This is partially why one needs to make an assumption on the circumstances in order to create a generalized ally chart at all. Making a chart with every Space Marine Chapter, IG regiment, Dark Eldar cabal, and Tau sept is simply not feasible (and silly when GW is trying to encourage homebrew creations). In this regards, I think the idea of making an allies chart that caters to "the best" situation allows for the most amounts of player options, which is what GW is trying to encourage, and I think that's their reasoning behind a lot of the ally relationships in the current official matrix. Of course, the IG-Chaos relationships and the Sister-BT relationships are off, but everything else there seems to be GW giving factions the "benefit of the doubt" (or, perhaps more accurately, "the benefit of the trust"?) when it comes to who can ally with whom. Other evidence of this is the large variety of desperate alliances where, as far as I know, there was never a fluff alliance in the first place of such a thing (necrons allied with daemons? I don't recall that ever happening anywhere in any fluff source, for example. The fact that GW threw it in anyways is decent indication that they're trying to open up as many options as possible. Higher ally relationships allow for more options in playing (Desperate Allies is a deterrent to allying at all in a lot of cases, after all, due to One Eye Open), which is probably why they tossed in Tau Marine battle brothers (despite how that really only happened like... once?) and Eldar Tau battle brothers (.....which is basically like, based off of ONE quote by Uldrad, if that much).
Before one can make any allies chart at all, be it "lore friendly" or otherwise, one needs to lay down what it'll be based on. I've been going by the "under the best" circumstances and have just given my reasoning for why that should be the underlying assumption (and why I think GW is going by that assumption, too, but that's a tangent, I suppose).
Ninjacommando wrote:pg 78 of the space marine codex, they still have their old allies position.
Depending on how one interprets that sentence .. there has been a lot of argueing about this bit, and this is just the largest, but not the only thread where it was debated.
I think it should be FAQ'd to make it clear once and for all how it is meant to work.
Ninjacommando wrote:But as Psienesis and Happyjew have said, if you want to do a real "Lore friendly" Allies chart you would need to break down each faction pretty dam far.
And we'd have to decide which lore to go by - probably a very personal/individual matter, as evidenced in this thread.
TiamatRoar wrote: The situation is still murky enough that they could possibly be allies of convenience instead. For one thing, until the day the Space Wolves are officially declared heretics and with things like Logan being elected overall leader of the Marines for the 13th Black Crusade,
It wouldn't need to be nearly so extreme. The Ecclesiarchy and the Sisters aren't that lax when it comes to branding heretics. Nah, attacking the Ecclesiarchy over relgious reasons is more than enough cause for extreme dislike.
TiamatRoar wrote: I find the idea of a sister refusing Space Wolf aid against chaos marines, and then keeping one eye open during the battle, to be absolutely ridiculously ludicrous to idiot-ball levels of "too dumb to live" lose-all-respect-at-the-sisters'-sheer-flanderized-STUPIDITY levels no matter how intense their dislike might be of each other.
But you're going straight to a more extreme situation. They could also team up against some rebellious IG, or something. Not necessarily Chaos. Again, it should be how well they'd get along in general, and all that. And the Sisters and Wolves could well have some mutual distrust, given the severity of the aforementioned incident. Tensions would likely be high. We've got highly orthodox zealots and free-spirited, visibly mutated Marines who have issues with authority. On top of that, the Sisters actively tried to purge the Wolves in the past, in response to the Wolves murding clergymen who were looking for heresy. A co-operation between the two would most likely be rather strained.
Also, you're assuming that only the Sisters would be at fault, here. I know I'm somewhat biased here over which army interests me more and tend to only talk about the SoB viewpoint on this, but the Wolves would most likely also have issues. They'd probably be mad over the Sisters trying to purge them, they could well be highly wary of the Sisters "kicking off" on them.
TiamatRoar wrote: (as an aside, "spread their deviant beliefs to Imperial Citizens"? Where did that come from?)
I was referring to the people on Fenris. Though thinking about it, they may have had those beliefs anyway. But the Wolves still stopped the Ecclesiarchy from going to inspect these citizens. So I'll rephrase that to the Wolves protecting probable deviants, or something like that.
TiamatRoar wrote: "A strong case" is not good enough to say one's fan-made allied matrix is more "lore friendly" than GW's. At most, you can say it MIGHT be more lore-friendly.
And yet, we both seem to agree that the BT-SoB rating was a mistake and didn't fit with the fluff at all. Why can that be an error, but not the SW one? There was also a "strong case" for the BT-SoB one being wrong, and all that used was codex fluff too. This is more or less the same thing.
Lynata wrote: And we'd have to decide which lore to go by - probably a very personal/individual matter, as evidenced in this thread.
I just want relgious nutters to go with my relgious nutters. :(
The fluff even says that they're firm allies, now.
Happyjew wrote: And don't forget the various Craftworlds and Kabals.
Oh, I hadn't even gotten started on the Xenos! We'd have individual Craftworlds, Exodite Worlds, Kabals, Tau Septs, Necron Dynasties, factions within a given Necron Dynasty, Ork Tribes, Ork Kults, Kroot Breeds, Vespid Swarms, Tyranid Hive Fleets...
Hell, you would need an entire book. Codex: The Chart of Allies.
Happyjew wrote: And don't forget the various Craftworlds and Kabals.
Oh, I hadn't even gotten started on the Xenos! We'd have individual Craftworlds, Exodite Worlds, Kabals, Tau Septs, Necron Dynasties, factions within a given Necron Dynasty, Ork Tribes, Ork Kults, Kroot Breeds, Vespid Swarms, Tyranid Hive Fleets...
Hell, you would need an entire book. Codex: The Chart of Allies.
I'd buy it. Just so I can have proof as to why Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Crafworld Ulthwe happen to be best buddies.
TiamatRoar wrote: The situation is still murky enough that they could possibly be allies of convenience instead. For one thing, until the day the Space Wolves are officially declared heretics and with things like Logan being elected overall leader of the Marines for the 13th Black Crusade,
It wouldn't need to be nearly so extreme. The Ecclesiarchy and the Sisters aren't that lax when it comes to branding heretics. Nah, attacking the Ecclesiarchy over relgious reasons is more than enough cause for extreme dislike.
Sure, it'd have to be that extreme. Sisters wasting time worrying about wolves before they're officially branded heretics when chaos marines are right in front of them in a hypothetical situation is stupid.
TiamatRoar wrote: I find the idea of a sister refusing Space Wolf aid against chaos marines, and then keeping one eye open during the battle, to be absolutely ridiculously ludicrous to idiot-ball levels of "too dumb to live" lose-all-respect-at-the-sisters'-sheer-flanderized-STUPIDITY levels no matter how intense their dislike might be of each other.
But you're going straight to a more extreme situation. They could also team up against some rebellious IG, or something. Not necessarily Chaos. Again, it should be how well they'd get along in general, and all that. And the Sisters and Wolves could well have some mutual distrust, given the severity of the aforementioned incident. Tensions would likely be high. We've got highly orthodox zealots and free-spirited, visibly mutated Marines who have issues with authority. On top of that, the Sisters actively tried to purge the Wolves in the past, in response to the Wolves murding clergymen who were looking for heresy. A co-operation between the two would most likely be rather strained.
Also, you're assuming that only the Sisters would be at fault, here. I know I'm somewhat biased here over which army interests me more and tend to only talk about the SoB viewpoint on this, but the Wolves would most likely also have issues. They'd probably be mad over the Sisters trying to purge them, they could well be highly wary of the Sisters "kicking off" on them.
The wolves are Allies of Convenience with the Grey Knights, despite how the Grey Knights did far worse than the sisters (break parley). The sisters were just doing a job. In that ecclesiarchy situation, the Ecclesiarchy didn't call in the sisters until AFTER shots have already been fired. Why would the wolves be mad about that?
Again, strained does not mean desperate allies. If Marines can ally with Tau and IG can ally with orks without One Eye Open, then clearly GW's idea of what makes people Desperate Allies must be different from yours.
And yet, we both seem to agree that the BT-SoB rating was a mistake and didn't fit with the fluff at all. Why can that be an error, but not the SW one? There was also a "strong case" for the BT-SoB one being wrong, and all that used was codex fluff too. This is more or less the same thing.
That's hindsight. Again, burden of proof lies with you until GW says otherwise (which they just happened to do so with BT). If you disagree, then drop the issue.
Happyjew wrote: And don't forget the various Craftworlds and Kabals.
Oh, I hadn't even gotten started on the Xenos! We'd have individual Craftworlds, Exodite Worlds, Kabals, Tau Septs, Necron Dynasties, factions within a given Necron Dynasty, Ork Tribes, Ork Kults, Kroot Breeds, Vespid Swarms, Tyranid Hive Fleets...
Hell, you would need an entire book. Codex: The Chart of Allies.
I'd buy it. Just so I can have proof as to why Hive Fleet Jormungandr and Crafworld Ulthwe happen to be best buddies.
And we'd finally get Necron/BA Battle Brothers
xD hey! Don't forget the chaos daemon warbands such as the Khorne and Slaanesh army! Which is why in the end no matter how we try the lore friendly allies chart will never work perfectly...
xD hey! Don't forget the chaos daemon warbands such as the Khorne and Slaanesh army! Which is why in the end no matter how we try the lore friendly allies chart will never work perfectly...
Are you trolling or not and are just confused? Or am I missing some context here? I can't really tell. Daemons even have an apocalypse formation that uses all four types.
TiamatRoar wrote:Sure, it'd have to be that extreme. Sisters wasting time worrying about wolves before they're officially branded heretics when chaos marines are right in front of them in a hypothetical situation is stupid.
By that logic it would be "stupid" for Sisters to worry about the Flesh Tearers, too.
"They're not officially branded heretics yet, girls! No need to keep an eye on those barbarians who ate our militia last time!"
TiamatRoar wrote:The sisters were just doing a job. In that ecclesiarchy situation, the Ecclesiarchy didn't call in the sisters until AFTER shots have already been fired. Why would the wolves be mad about that?
Maybe because Sisters are a part of the Ecclesiarchy? Because they are, as the fluff tells us, the most prominent symbol of its influence?
And given how Lorgar has "an abiding hatred for the Adepts of the Administratum" ever since Armageddon, I'd say the Wolves don't seem to distinguish a lot between people.
Also, technically, Sisters provide bodyguards for the Frateris Clergy - you cannot rule out the possibility that they've been part of the initial delegation.
TiamatRoar wrote:If Marines can ally with Tau and IG can ally with orks without One Eye Open, then clearly GW's idea of what makes people Desperate Allies must be different from yours.
I thought that's precisely the reason why we are discussing a "lore friendly chart" here? Because not everyone here thinks that the original chart is 100% reflective of it?
TiamatRoar wrote:That's hindsight. Again, burden of proof lies with you until GW says otherwise (which they just happened to do so with BT). If you disagree, then drop the issue.
Neither we nor you can "prove" anything - as with most fluff, this is obviously a matter of interpretation, and the SoB players here look fairly convinced of how their army would react.
TiamatRoar wrote:Sure, it'd have to be that extreme. Sisters wasting time worrying about wolves before they're officially branded heretics when chaos marines are right in front of them in a hypothetical situation is stupid.
By that logic it would be "stupid" for Sisters to worry about the Flesh Tearers, too.
"They're not officially branded heretics yet, girls! No need to keep an eye on those barbarians who ate our militia last time!"
TiamatRoar wrote:The sisters were just doing a job. In that ecclesiarchy situation, the Ecclesiarchy didn't call in the sisters until AFTER shots have already been fired. Why would the wolves be mad about that?
Maybe because Sisters are a part of the Ecclesiarchy? Because they are, as the fluff tells us, the most prominent symbol of its influence?
And given how Lorgar has "an abiding hatred for the Adepts of the Administratum" ever since Armageddon, I'd say the Wolves don't seem to distinguish a lot between people.
Also, technically, Sisters provide bodyguards for the Frateris Clergy - you cannot rule out the possibility that they've been part of the initial delegation.
TiamatRoar wrote:If Marines can ally with Tau and IG can ally with orks without One Eye Open, then clearly GW's idea of what makes people Desperate Allies must be different from yours.
I thought that's precisely the reason why we are discussing a "lore friendly chart" here? Because not everyone here thinks that the original chart is 100% reflective of it?
TiamatRoar wrote:That's hindsight. Again, burden of proof lies with you until GW says otherwise (which they just happened to do so with BT). If you disagree, then drop the issue.
Neither we nor you can "prove" anything - as with most fluff, this is obviously a matter of interpretation, and the SoB players here look fairly convinced of how their army would react.
The difference is that right now, if an SoB player decided to have their SoBs allied with the SW against your army on an allies of convenience level and his/her interpretation differs from yours, there's not a thing you can do about it no matter what your interpretation of it is. ...well, okay, I guess you could always like, refuse to play with that person, I suppose. You'd totally be "that guy", but whatever.
Thing is GW only used sisters to show how SW are strongly anti authoritarian and don't care about Lorgar's disciples....To the wolves sisters are less important wenches (no offense), I mean they have much bigger fish to fry...
For instance TS (their real and worst enemy for about 10 000 years), Abbadadadadabon (13th black crusade), and the scheeming "I" who are 1st on Logan's kill list....
And sisters need to worry about chaos, not the SM chapters who are constantly trolling them ...
Just for lulz I would love to see them trying to purge FT....
TiamatRoar wrote:The difference is that right now, if an SoB player decided to have their SoBs allied with the SW against your army on an allies of convenience level and his/her interpretation differs from yours, there's not a thing you can do about it no matter what your interpretation of it is. ...well, okay, I guess you could always like, refuse to play with that person, I suppose. You'd totally be "that guy", but whatever.
Maybe, but that's not what we are discussing here anyways.
SoB+SW would by far not be the only "weird" allies combination to show up in a game. I don't think I would feel any different about that than about, say, SM+Necrons, or BT+Dark Eldar.
In fact, I think the exact leve of alliance would bother me far less than seeing the latter two combinations together at all.
DarthMarko wrote:Lorgar's disciples
Fatidicus'.
DarthMarko wrote:And sisters need to worry about chaos, not the SM chapters who are constantly trolling them ...
Technically, to them both of these things may well be one and the same.
DarthMarko wrote:But you think sisters would go well with BA and DA ?
In terms of general alliances: Yes, absolutely. There's not nearly as much bad blood between them.
In terms of the actual level of alliance, I mentioned earlier how they should still be Allies of Convenience, though.
BA due to the rumours and problems regarding their geneseed and Successor Chapters, DA because of their unreliability and secrecy.
DarthMarko wrote:My point is that this whole thingy is blown out of proportion by sister fans
Lynata wrote: Technically, to them both of these things may well be one and the same.
I still find your assessment that the sisters feel that way to be absolutely ludicrous and NOT lore friendly at all, whatsoever. I can't even begin to imagine the look on Creed's face if a sister told him that she saw the wolves and chaos as one and the same. Or ANY sane individual, really. Really, even Ciaphas Cain sisters weren't that nuts (not that you'd accept that as lore either. Because selective-choice on what's "proper lore" and what isn't is apparently the in-thing to do when deciding on a "lore friendly" chart for some people). Regardless of what you say, we have one book that contradicts this, bad as it is, and that's more than what you got. And that's the final word on that because now we're just repeating things.
Seriously, viewing the wolves and chaos as one and the same... even Kysnos didn't make a claim that ridiculous.
DarthMarko wrote:But you think sisters would go well with BA and DA ?
In terms of general alliances: Yes, absolutely. There's not nearly as much bad blood between them.
In terms of the actual level of alliance, I mentioned earlier how they should still be Allies of Convenience, though.
BA due to the rumours and problems regarding their geneseed and Successor Chapters, DA because of their unreliability and secrecy.
You are kidding ? DA ? *Fallen, on the horizon, kill the sisters....!!!* BA ??? Muties with a same traits as FT ??? Okay, not so much but imagine DC working with sororitas..
TiamatRoar wrote:I still find your assessment that the sisters feel that way to be absolutely ludicrous and NOT lore friendly at all, whatsoever. Regardless of what you say, we have one book that contradicts this, bad as it is, and that's more than what you got. And that's the final word on that because now we're just repeating things.
Just because you keep ignoring the previously presented material on what the Ecclesiarchy thinks about Space Marines, and how little tolerant the Sisters are in general, does not make it any less valid.
At least we finally agree on moving in circles, though.
TiamatRoar wrote:Really, even Ciaphas Cain sisters weren't that nuts (not that you'd accept that as lore either. Because selective-choice on what's "proper lore" and what isn't is apparently the in-thing to do when deciding on a "lore friendly" chart for some people).
Selective choice on "proper lore" absolutely is the in-thing to do when this means preventing an army of elite religious crusader-nutjobs to be turned into a bunch of merrily drinking and flirting Sunday School girls whose gross incompetence in military matters is only overshadowed by how easy they lose faith and get corrupted.
Thanks, but no thanks. I'll stick to the Codex fluff.
DarthMarko wrote:Again, you say Edison, I say Tesla...
I'm just repeating what GW tells me.
Even if I would adopt those weird Horus Heresy novels into my perception of the setting, nothing in there actually makes any connection between Lorgar and the Imperial Creed. You're merely jumping to conclusions because you like this idea.
Lorgar's teachings would be one of many, many, many different cults on the Emperor, just like Fatidicus' were. The difference is that I can point to a book that specifically says that Fatidicus' ideas resulted in the Ecclesiarchy as the one cult that managed to triumph over all other contenders.
DarthMarko wrote:You are kidding ? DA ? *Fallen, on the horizon, kill the sisters....!!!* BA ??? Muties with a same traits as FT ??? Okey, not so much but imagine DC working with sororitas..
DarthMarko wrote:Yeah Lynata, but then you can't argue with someone if your selective version isn't compatible with current fluff which some of us use.....
My fluff is as "current" as yours.
And, actually, I have already offered to simply agree to disagree way earlier on the very basis that we seem to be following different interpretations/sources.
DarthMarko wrote:Yeah Lynata, but then you can't argue with someone if your selective version isn't compatible with current fluff which some of us use.....
My fluff is as "current" as yours.
And, actually, I have already offered to simply agree to disagree way earlier on the very basis that we seem to be following different interpretations/sources.
Yeah, with a minor detail..Fully ignoring the current fluff which changes a thing or two....
I know you are just pissed on the SW for kicking the poor Bucharis out of equation...kidding, cheers
DarthMarko wrote:Yeah, with a minor detail..Fully ignoring the current fluff which changes a thing or two....
No, not with a minor detail.
Unlike most, I'm treating the fluff in the way its writers intended.
Your novels are not more right or more current than Codex fluff (which is constantly proven by GW's core team giving a rat's ass on what it says in some novel when they write their own fluff). Fortunately, one might add.
Hey, Lynata's lore of having the sisters view chaos and wolves as one and the same is as valid as daemons and grey knights allying together. GW said all fan lore is valid, after all.
No you're not. You're going by your own definition of what's valid lore. You even said so yourself one post up. "My fluff is as "current" as yours. " You're trying to force the wolves as desperate allies with the sisters as a more "lore friendly" allies matrix regardless of what other peoples' interpretation is. You can't prove that the writers intended the sisters to be desperate allies with the wolves at all. The fact that the wolves are allies of convenience with them in the matrix spits in the face of this, and all you have is the flimsy excuse that GW MIGHT be making a mistake (how convenient). Either all lore is valid and the idea of a "lore friendly" matrix should be thrown out the window, or you're forcing your idea of what's more "lore friendly" on it. You can't say "all lore is valid" and then say "a more lore-friendly matrix has the sisters be desperate allies with the wolves". The two are mutually exclusive statements.
DarthMarko wrote:Yeah, with a minor detail..Fully ignoring the current fluff which changes a thing or two....
No, not with a minor detail.
Unlike most, I'm treating the fluff in the way its writers intended.
Your novels are not more right or more current than Codex fluff (which is constantly proven by GW's core team giving a rat's ass on what it says in some novel when they write their own fluff). Fortunately, one might add.
Can we at least argue about perspectives then ? Wait...we can't...damn..
Automatically Appended Next Post:
StarTrotter wrote: Who knows? Maybe certain "Emperor's blessings" are daemons? and you know the changeling ain't exactly easy to catch~
In the "Flight of eisenstein" (book again), saint Keeler starts the holy mojo before Empy's ascension on the golden toilet...Hmmmmmm, very odd...
TiamatRoar wrote:Hey, Lynata's lore of having the sisters view chaos and wolves as one and the same is as valid as daemons and grey knights allying together.
I said no such thing.
Spoiler:
DarthMarko wrote:And sisters need to worry about chaos, not the SM chapters who are constantly trolling them ...
Lynata wrote:Technically, to them both of these things may well be one and the same.
Please read my posts more carefully. Assuming, of course, you did not simply fail to see the connection between Space Marines, Chaos Space Marines, and an organisation whose list of tasks includes purging Astartes Chapters for doctrinal heresy.
TiamatRoar wrote:No you're not. You're going by your own definition of what's valid lore.
No, I'm not. If you'd read those quotes I linked, you might notice it is the definition of the writers.
TiamatRoar wrote:Either all lore is valid and the idea of a "lore friendly" matrix should be thrown out the window [...]
Which is, again, why I have said earlier that we should decide which sources we are operating on.
Lynata wrote: Which is, again, why I have said earlier that we should decide which sources we are operating on.
Well, GW's matrix is obviously operating off the novels too because that's where the Tau Marine battle-brothers thing comes from. So thus, the Blood of Asaheim is just as valid for it, hence allies of convenience for sisters and wolves. For all we know, maybe they considered that story when they decided on that relationship in the first place.
If you and others wish to make an allies matrix that doesn't take into account the novels, that's fine too. I however shall bow out of that because I'm simply more interested in the lore-reasoning of GW's allies matrix, which does appear to take the novels into account.
As mentioned in Gav Thorpe's blog, GW does occasionally adopt things they like into their own description of the setting. Whether this truly led to the SM+Tau combination would be speculation, but of course any speculation regarding possible novel influences on SW alliance combinations is just as valid - and it is an interesting (if, to me, somewhat disturbing) thought that I had not considered.
Anyways, I guess that means we are simply looking for different things in the matrix. Truce?
Lynata wrote: As mentioned in Gav Thorpe's blog, GW does occasionally adopt things they like into their own description of the setting. Whether this truly led to the SM+Tau combination would be speculation, but of course any speculation regarding possible novel influences on SW alliance combinations is just as valid - and it is an interesting (if, to me, somewhat disturbing) thought that I had not considered.
Well, like I said, when someone asked at a panel, the GW guys responded that space marines and tau have teamed up in the past as their reasoning for it. Presumably they were referring to that novel, because I can't see what else they were referring to. It's not even really a stand-alone black library novel, I think. Pretty sure it's from Fire Warrior, which is the equivalent of the GW studio writers saying "We based this allies matrix relationship off of a book based off of a video game". (the Tau work with the Marines as "battle brothers" level in the book, but not in the game, to my knowledge)
...if true, that's both impressive in their research as well as horrific. ...though the Fire Warrior novel really wasn't bad.
Anyways, I guess that means we are simply looking for different things in the matrix. Truce?
Sure. I'm glad we reached this point actually. I'm always fascinated by the logic GW used behind their allies matrix so I got a few more realizations from this.
6 pages and enough words to fill a novel and yet I havent seen people actually mention the fluff reason why GW might have intended SoB and BT to be desperate allies.
So here's my take:
In the old BT fluff, it was spelled out that unlike any other chapter, the Inquisition is well aware that the total number of BTs far exceeds 1000 marines, and are therefore in violation of the codex astartes. While IMO this should actually upset Rawbutt Girlyman, it seems that it upsets the Imperium's Inquisitiorial forces as well, and thus the Inquisition is wary of the BTs, especially the strength they could muster if their entire crusading fleets were gathered in one place.
Sir Arun wrote: I havent seen people actually mention the fluff reason why GW might have intended SoB and BT to be desperate allies.
Previously, some people explained it as "Catholics and Protestants" reasoning that they had strong dislike of each other as different sects of the same religion (keep in mind that this was before the new fluff that outright has BTs as Emperor worshipers, and that may have just been an incorrect assumption to begin with). But even that ignored the fact that the two had worked together well in the fluff before, and that the Templars bore more trust towards xenos than people who were similar to them in beliefs.
If I had to guess, I'd say that the person or persons who decided upon their allies relationship thought that they'd greatly at odds over (apparent) religious differences, or the BT's flaunting of rules on chapter size may have been a point of tension. I don't really agree with those explanations, doubly so in light of the latest fluff on the matter, but it could have been the reasoning behind their allies rating.
TiamatRoar wrote: Really, even Ciaphas Cain sisters weren't that nuts (not that you'd accept that as lore either. Because selective-choice on what's "proper lore" and what isn't is apparently the in-thing to do when deciding on a "lore friendly" chart for some people).
If you read the codex of fluff on how the SoB live and behave, then yes, the Cain Sisters are quite deviant from that. So no, a person is perfectly entitled to ignore a freelance writer who disregards a faction's characterisation. Some of the characterisation of the Sisters in the Cain books is quite incompatible with what we read about in the codex, isn't the best thing to do there to disregard some of what we see in the Cain books, and not the codexes?
TiamatRoar wrote: Really, even Ciaphas Cain sisters weren't that nuts (not that you'd accept that as lore either. Because selective-choice on what's "proper lore" and what isn't is apparently the in-thing to do when deciding on a "lore friendly" chart for some people).
If you read the codex of fluff on how the SoB live and behave, then yes, the Cain Sisters are quite deviant from that. So no, a person is perfectly entitled to ignore a freelance writer who disregards a faction's characterisation. Some of the characterisation of the Sisters in the Cain books is quite incompatible with what we read about in the codex, isn't the best thing to do there to disregard some of what we see in the Cain books, and not the codexes?
What I'm saying is that the Cain books sisters, despite how psychotic and crazy the sisters were in there (and the Cain books obviously being a satirical of how zealous they were), were still more compatible than your portrayal of the sisters as too stupid to focus on Chaos just because there are wolves around.
I really can't see the Sisters being super-friendly with many Astartes chapters.
Raven Guard: have a mutation that makes them look like Michael Jackson. Clearly the work of Witches. They are heretics and must be purged.
Salamanders...OK maybe they would get along well with Sisters. They both do love setting things on fire, maybe there could be the spark of romance there. Except for the fact that they are also mutated to black skin and red eyes (just like evil beasties). They would need to be purged.
Iron Hands mutilate their Emperor given bodies. That can't be right. Burn them all.
The sisters' relations with Astartes chapters is already spelled out in Witch Hunters 2E. I mean, REALLY spelled out. The quote is a few pages back. Basically they don't like them due to their iffy practices but relations can be "civil at best" (IE, allies of convenience ta the very worst in most cases) because they respect them as skilled and dutiful warriors and defenders of the Imperium.
As independent-minded as the wolves are, I'm sure this would apply to them too. After all, the wolves have been defending the Imperium for 10,000 years and have done such famous things as help take down Bucharis after the age of Apostacy. The wolves are heroic enough that Logan was elected leader of the Space Marines for the 13th Black Crusade and endorsed by Creed as well. Any sister that knows their Imperial History will know that, even though the wolves have bared their fangs at the Ecclesiarchy in the past, they can at least be relied on to defend the Imperium that they've been doing for 10,000 years and thus One Eye Open is something only a MORON of a sister would follow.
Contrary to what some people think, the sisters are not blind zealous fools that only care about the Emperor and nothing else. They actually DO care about Imperial citizens and actually DO sincerely hate "evil" things such as baby-eating and murdering civilians because those things are WRONG, not just because the Emperor says they're wrong. This shows up in both the sister's writing on the flesh tearers (she's actually very coherent and presents her case in a very thoughtful manner) and even Ciaphas Cain as well when Cain manages to appeal to their duty as protectors. Sisters Hospitalers actually have charity hospitals and are described by guardsmen as some of the nicest most caring people ever to them. When they went after the Sons of Malice to declare them renegade, the fact that the Sons of Malice were doing absolutely HORRIFIC things was emphasized ("horrific" as in brutalize and murder and eat people, not "horrific" as in "doesn't worship the Emperor the way the ecclesiarchy tells them to"). They're more than capable of realizing that the Astartes, despite not worshipping the Emperor, are still dutiful defenders of the Imperium and the "good guys", just as they are ("good guys" relative to the setting, of course).
TiamatRoar wrote: What I'm saying is that the Cain books sisters, despite how psychotic and crazy the sisters were in there (and the Cain books obviously being a satirical of how zealous they were), were still more compatible than your portrayal of the sisters as too stupid to focus on Chaos just because there are wolves around.
Ah, I was talking more about the "smokes and drinks" Sister in my previous reply. Anyway, in regards to Mitchell portraying them as "crazy", as you put it, I'd still call that inaccurate. Specifically, I'd cite the "charging into a 'Nid attack unsupported" part. Mitchell seems to have the misconception of thinking of the Sisters as regular crazed zealots who happen to have fancy equipment, rather than also acknowledging that they are elite soldiers too. He writes them zealous enough, but makes them seem too incompetent. Every Sister is a progenium graduate, see, and has been practicing military drill and tactics from an early age. What's more, the fluff notes than an SoBs daily life consists of combat practice as well as prayer. So I'd call "crazy" Sisters rather inaccurate in regards to the studio fluff.
So, getting back to your original point, I'd still view crazed Sisters as more incompatible with the fluff than Sisters who are extremely wary of what are essentially rowdy heretics that they have been to war with in the past.
Happyjew wrote: Salamanders...OK maybe they would get along well with Sisters. They both do love setting things on fire, maybe there could be the spark of romance there. Except for the fact that they are also mutated to black skin and red eyes (just like evil beasties). They would need to be purged.
They've worked together very well, actually. There's a story in the SoB codex where the two go on a burning spree together and are described as fighting "back to back".
TiamatRoar wrote: What I'm saying is that the Cain books sisters, despite how psychotic and crazy the sisters were in there (and the Cain books obviously being a satirical of how zealous they were), were still more compatible than your portrayal of the sisters as too stupid to focus on Chaos just because there are wolves around.
Ah, I was talking more about the "smokes and drinks" Sister in my previous reply. Anyway, in regards to Mitchell portraying them as "crazy", as you put it, I'd still call that inaccurate. Specifically, I'd cite the "charging into a 'Nid attack unsupported" part. Mitchell seems to have the misconception of thinking of the Sisters as regular crazed zealots who happen to have fancy equipment, rather than also acknowledging that they are elite soldiers too. He writes them zealous enough, but makes them seem too incompetent. Every Sister is a progenium graduate, see, and has been practicing military drill and tactics from an early age. What's more, the fluff notes than an SoBs daily life consists of combat practice as well as prayer. So I'd call "crazy" Sisters rather inaccurate in regards to the studio fluff.
I agree that their craziness and incompetence there is inaccurate. That's why I said it was to the point of being a satire (which... well, the entire Cain series purposefully is, really). However, I think incompetently charging Nids is still more believable than incompetently wasting time and focus worrying about allied wolf forces when the sisters KNOW that the wolves, for all their fights with the sisters in the past, hate Chaos just as much as they do. The wolves have had 10,000 years history of fighting Chaos and enemies of the Imperium. A 10,000 year history that does NOT involve shooting their allies in the back in the middle of battle, even if they may shoot other Imperial factions in regards to other matters (typically instigated by those factions infringing on the wolves' territory first). Any sister with half a brain would know that the wolves can be relied on to fight enemies of the Imperium, even if they can't be relied on to be agreeable in other matters. Their storied skill and duty in destroying enemies of the Imperium would be respected just as much as the other astartes in this matter. Enough that a sister thinking with her head straight would know she doesn't have to worry about keeping one eye open when teamed up with wolves fighting various enemies of the Imperium.
TiamatRoar wrote: What I'm saying is that the Cain books sisters, despite how psychotic and crazy the sisters were in there (and the Cain books obviously being a satirical of how zealous they were), were still more compatible than your portrayal of the sisters as too stupid to focus on Chaos just because there are wolves around.
Ah, I was talking more about the "smokes and drinks" Sister in my previous reply. Anyway, in regards to Mitchell portraying them as "crazy", as you put it, I'd still call that inaccurate. Specifically, I'd cite the "charging into a 'Nid attack unsupported" part. Mitchell seems to have the misconception of thinking of the Sisters as regular crazed zealots who happen to have fancy equipment, rather than also acknowledging that they are elite soldiers too. He writes them zealous enough, but makes them seem too incompetent. Every Sister is a progenium graduate, see, and has been practicing military drill and tactics from an early age. What's more, the fluff notes than an SoBs daily life consists of combat practice as well as prayer. So I'd call "crazy" Sisters rather inaccurate in regards to the studio fluff.
So, getting back to your original point, I'd still view crazed Sisters as more incompatible with the fluff than Sisters who are extremely wary of what are essentially rowdy heretics that they have been to war with in the past.
Happyjew wrote: Salamanders...OK maybe they would get along well with Sisters. They both do love setting things on fire, maybe there could be the spark of romance there. Except for the fact that they are also mutated to black skin and red eyes (just like evil beasties). They would need to be purged.
They've worked together very well, actually. There's a story in the SoB codex where the two go on a burning spree together and are described as fighting "back to back".
Ahh I disagree - being both a Zealot and a cool headed combat elite is a difficult balancing act - Look at the Templars and others in history - they were formidable fighters but often made serious errors in judgement because of their Faith / Arrogance - for instance charging 7000 soliders with 150 kinghts - sounds familiar? Astartes have the same issue - they are superbly combat trained but can get carried away with smiting the enemy rather than considering the bigger picture. Warriors and commanders throughout history have had this issue.
What Cain talks about (grudgingly) is how extremely effective they actually are when they are in combat, one sister later defeating a Broodlord in single combat, in the example mentioned above, they smash all the nearby synapse creatures and disorganise the swarm at the same time as Cain "rescues" them.....He never describes any as loosing their Faith - quite the opposite - Pretty much all other Imperial servants (except Cain really) are hugely inspired by their deeds and very presence. Faith is important to most of Mitchells characters - Cain is a believer as is Amberely and the other more cynical / worldly wise characters - they simply seem to believe - "The Emperor helps those who help themselves". The Sisters are seen as Chosen by Imperial Servants - perhaps even more than the Astartes - who are more mythical in form............
If they are simply they are cool efficient killers (which some of them will be - others not so much) the minor deviations of the Emperors chosen have no bearing on the matter as long as they are smiting heretics, Xenos and worse.
Space Wolves vs Sisters - in periods following that battle yes there is going to be tensions in interactions same as any Imperial organisation that has seen conflict with their fellows - but I think unless the Wolves are actually declared Heretics then violence should be able to be avoided.
My opinion (for what its worth) is that Sisters would be Battle Brothers with Guard and Black Templars and Allies of Convenience with all other elements of the Imperial Forces.............
Mr Morden wrote: Ahh I disagree - being both a Zealot and a cool headed combat elite is a difficult balancing act -
And yet, this is bascially the Sisters! Just look at how their daily lives are desrcibed. The fluff says something along the lines of Sisters seeing combat training and prayer as equally necessary for their line of work. And one needn't be cool-headed to keep note of one's deeply ingrained military training. A Sister could be furious at the enemy whilst still sticking to her training. And this, in my opinion, is what makes them so successful. They have the mental fortitude and belief in their cause granted by their faith as well as the martial prowess granted by their training.
Mr Morden wrote: Look at the Templars and others in history - they were formidable fighters but often made serious errors in judgement because of their Faith / Arrogance - for instance charging 7000 soliders with 150 kinghts - sounds familiar? Astartes have the same issue - they are superbly combat trained but can get carried away with smiting the enemy rather than considering the bigger picture. Warriors and commanders throughout history have had this issue.
It doesn't sound familiar, actually. Where did this happen? Also, in fairness, that was an entire army of BTs moving together, right? The Cain book has some Sisters moving forward by themselves, leaving the rest of the Imperial forces and going out by themselves into a hostile, unkown area.
Mr Morden wrote: What Cain talks about (grudgingly) is how extremely effective they actually are when they are in combat, one sister later defeating a Broodlord in single combat, in the example mentioned above, they smash all the nearby synapse creatures and disorganise the swarm at the same time as Cain "rescues" them...
Don't most of the Sisters die in that encounter, though? It's still them making a rather serious blunder, overall.
When people complain about this, they're probably referring to how Varan seems to easily take control of an entire Order.
To his credit, Cain does acknowledge the extreme faith of the Sisters, and instantly dismisses reports of traitor SoBs as enemy misinformation.
Mr Morden wrote: If they are simply they are cool efficient killers
Not what I'm advocating, though. Wasn't my intention to portray them as such.
Mr Morden wrote: Space Wolves vs Sisters - in periods following that battle yes there is going to be tensions in interactions same as any Imperial organisation that has seen conflict with their fellows - but I think unless the Wolves are actually declared Heretics then violence should be able to be avoided
Avoided, sure, but tensions will still be very high. The Sisters are distrustful of Marines to begin with, and these Marines are evn more mutated than usualy, have killed clergymen and have fought with the Sisters.
However, I think incompetently charging Nids is still more believable than incompetently wasting time and focus worrying about allied wolf forces when the sisters KNOW that the wolves, for all their fights with the sisters in the past,
The Sisters, being the Sisters, would be worried about heretics, which they see the Wolves as. On top of that, these percieved heretics are rather rowdy, and under no obligation to obey the Sisters.
TiamatRoar wrote: even if they may shoot other Imperial factions in regards to other matters (typically instigated by those factions infringing on the wolves' territory first).
I don't think that those other factions view themselves as in the wrong, at all. What they have is many years og defying authority and getting violent about it at times. Just one more thing that Sisters would dislike about the Wolves.
Sorry I should have been clearer in the Templars - I meant the historical Knights Templars rather than the 40K Black Templars. Basically they had a small force of 150 or so Knights and came across a large force of about 7000 of Saladin’s men and decided to charge - did not end well.......
A number of the Sisters die in the initial battle against the swarm but not as many as Cain expects and they achieve much more than he thought - in fact IIRC its the combination of the Sisters laying waste to synapse creatures and Cains headlong assault (ironically) with his vehicle and Jurgan that means they can all retreat safely - plus the Sister were the spearhead as they were leading fanatically devout PDf troops as well. They seem to have been making a successful tactical assault but an error on a strategic level - again not an unusual thing to happen to front line commanders
One interesting point is that Cain notes, like the Astartes, the Sisters tend not to take well to commands from other branches of the Imperiums fighting forces and also that they use their own Command Com net which he has trouble getting access to...........
Most sisters die later due to the infighting between the Inquisitions representatives over the artefact (again fairly normal plot) which first leads the whole swarm to them and then Amberely demolishes the whole plateau (and all the evidence) with orbital bombardment. However again, the swarm suffers badly against the Sisters.
IIRC Varen is able to take control over anyone he can see due to his Psyker abilities - I think that there are only five or six Sisters under direct control. It’s only Jurgen that protects Cain. The point of having them here was to show the sheer power of Varens power - as you say Cain immediately dismisses the merest idea that the Sisters have turned - if they had been mere Marines mind controlled - I doubt anyone would have been that surprised
It doesn't matter whether it'd necessarily be chaos or not. If the wolves were made Desperate Allies to the sisters, then anyone fielding an SoB + Wolves army against a Chaos army on the table top would be forced to use Desperate Allies rules, and that would be so ridiculously unfluffy that the Chaos player should be obligated to have his Chaos Lord laugh at how stupid those Imperial forces are. This is likely one of the reasons why the Allies matrix has to take the "best" circumstances into account
Again, it's also a matter of being able to replicate fluff battles, like the Tau Marines battle brothers scenario. Maybe you and 95% of everyone else hates Blood of Asaheim. But clearly at least one person here likes it. Why should he hypothetically not be allowed to have his wolves and his sisters fight together like they do in an ACTUAL Black Library publicatoin (bad as it is or not) just because it doesn't agree with your idea of the lore? If I'm allowed to have my marines and Tau fight together as battle brothers just because they did so in one book, that should apply to the sisters and wolves as well. The allies matrix needs to confirm to a standard, and this seems to be one of those standards the GW one is confirming to.
GW wants players to have options. They've made this VERY clear when they said all lore is valid. The nature of the allies matrix which allows for tons of alliances, even really REALLY vague ones like Marines and Tau (or hell, ones that never existed like Necrons and Daemons) shows this. Obviously they have their limits or else everyone could just ally with anyone else, but overall it's clear they are usually giving the benefit of the doubt to various races and including as many novels as they can, thus Blood of Asaheim is just as valid to the GW allies matrix as Fire Warrior and everything else is, which means "the best" allies relation possible. Making Wolves and Sisters allies of convenience doesn't hurt you people who think they should hate each other (just don't field them together or play with people who do). Given how house rules are barred from tourneys and the majority of the playerbase, it DOES hurt people who think they should be able to work with each other, however, by forcing them to play them in a way that doesn't reflect an actual GW-affiliated publication (whether you like it or think it stupid or not) at all.
If you want an allies matrix that ignores the novels then say so. Don't go shoving it around a discussion involving GW's ally matrix, though (I'm talking about this line of posts, not the entire thread), because GW's ally matrix CLEARLY is taking into account the novels. And make it ignore ALL novels instead of some lame double standard.
"Divided we stand" is an axiom within the Imperium.
The Wolves have flat-out denied that they violated the Edict of Nikea because they have Rune Priests, not Psykers or Librarians, and Rune Priests practice the "ancient nature magic of Fenris". This either makes them, A, liars (in direct opposition to the very words of the Emperor) or, B, sorcerers. Guess which one is a heretic?
The Wolves have directly opposed the explicit orders of the Inquisition, killed Grey Knights acting within their legal right to arrest and detain Logan Grimnar, and carried out protracted naval engagements against the GK and the Inquisition and killed an Inquisitor.
They're heretics. Not Chaos-aligned heretics, but heretics. They have directly opposed the legal orders of those who represent the Emperor's Will, and have (stupidly) allowed the taint of Chaos *massive* opportunities to spread throughout the Imperium.
How many of those refugees and soldiers departing from Armageddon carried within them the seeds of corruption? We'll never know. The Inquisition and the Grey Knights were right in ordering their deaths. The risk to countless trillions of other human lives was too great to risk allowing them to live.
The Space Wolves disagreed, and that is what kicked off all their problems, simply because they are too damn stupid to understand how insidious Chaos can be.
Psienesis wrote: "Divided we stand" is an axiom within the Imperium.
The Wolves have flat-out denied that they violated the Edict of Nikea because they have Rune Priests, not Psykers or Librarians, and Rune Priests practice the "ancient nature magic of Fenris". This either makes them, A, liars (in direct opposition to the very words of the Emperor) or, B, sorcerers. Guess which one is a heretic?
The Wolves have directly opposed the explicit orders of the Inquisition, killed Grey Knights acting within their legal right to arrest and detain Logan Grimnar, and carried out protracted naval engagements against the GK and the Inquisition and killed an Inquisitor.
They're heretics. Not Chaos-aligned heretics, but heretics. They have directly opposed the legal orders of those who represent the Emperor's Will, and have (stupidly) allowed the taint of Chaos *massive* opportunities to spread throughout the Imperium.
How many of those refugees and soldiers departing from Armageddon carried within them the seeds of corruption? We'll never know. The Inquisition and the Grey Knights were right in ordering their deaths. The risk to countless trillions of other human lives was too great to risk allowing them to live.
The Space Wolves disagreed, and that is what kicked off all their problems, simply because they are too damn stupid to understand how insidious Chaos can be.
That's... nice. It doesn't change the fact that them being Desperate Allies to the sisters would make a player unable to recreate an actual BL publication (which is also "lore" in all definitions of the word, no matter how stupid some might see the book). Again, if you want an allies matrix that doesn't allow one to recreate BL publications, then say so. It can be "lore friendly" to studio only lore. However, your settings of them as Desperate Allies certainly isn't lore friendly to BL lore, which the current GW allies matrix generally is.
I don't want an Allies Matrix to recreate BL publications.
I also don't want an Allies Matrix to recreate the gak-terrible Wolf & Sister webcomic. I don't want an Allies Matrix that has BA and Necrons bro-fisting (Desperate Allies is it, and fits that event perfectly).
That's... nice. It doesn't change the fact that them being Desperate Allies to the sisters would make a player unable to recreate an actual BL publication (which is also "lore" in all definitions of the word, no matter how stupid some might see the book).
I don´t get why. In "Blood of Asaheim" the Sisters are not "allied" with the Wolves.
The Wolves look down upon the Sisters, insult them and treat them like cockroaches. They do not fight side by side, at any point, because the Sisters (like the PDF) are unworthy of it. They whine, cry for help, lose their faith, tremble in fear, smile meekly when insulted and keep their head down. One of them gets so infatuated with the manly wolves that betrays her Order to pass them information. And at the end they die horribly without accomplishing nothing. They do not fight together.
It is not a good book in any sense. It is bolter porn, and rather sexist. But even in you like it, it does not depict the Wolves as allies of the Sisters. They fight alone.
I get your "best-case" theory, but then it should be Battle Brothers to anyone. If you go by the fluff, Sisters and Astartes are wary of each other, as explained in Codex Sisters of Battle (the last one, second edition), page 50. It is long but, to put it short, Space Marines are heretics (seriously, they use the word heretic) and mutants, and prone to become traitors. But they are related to God, so it is complicated. So AoC sounds good to me. And the open war between Wolves and Sisters should push this into DA territory. The Ecclesiarchy ordered the Sisters to exterminate the Wolves, there is blood between them... and the Wolves are traitors in their eyes.
To the OP:
Also... Sisters and Tau? Sisters and Necrons? Being a zealot is part of the Sisters´ ethos: they will rather die. Recently we got Reasonable Marines everywhere, but the Sisters are still crazy. I like them that way.
Last thing: why not Chaos + Imperial guard = Lost and the Damned? Fallen Angels or Alpha Legion can be represented using Battle Brothers between the two armies.
Just my two cents. The rest of the chart looks fine to me.
However I would like to see Space Marines as Battle Brothers with Chaos Space Marines. Really. I can field a 100% loyalist chapter or a 100% traitor chapter. There should be something in the middle, a chapter that has recently turned traitor and has not yet exchanged the Land Speeders for Defilers.
Psienesis wrote: "Divided we stand" is an axiom within the Imperium.
The Wolves have flat-out denied that they violated the Edict of Nikea because they have Rune Priests, not Psykers or Librarians, and Rune Priests practice the "ancient nature magic of Fenris". This either makes them, A, liars (in direct opposition to the very words of the Emperor) or, B, sorcerers. Guess which one is a heretic?
The Wolves have directly opposed the explicit orders of the Inquisition, killed Grey Knights acting within their legal right to arrest and detain Logan Grimnar, and carried out protracted naval engagements against the GK and the Inquisition and killed an Inquisitor.
They're heretics. Not Chaos-aligned heretics, but heretics. They have directly opposed the legal orders of those who represent the Emperor's Will, and have (stupidly) allowed the taint of Chaos *massive* opportunities to spread throughout the Imperium.
How many of those refugees and soldiers departing from Armageddon carried within them the seeds of corruption? We'll never know. The Inquisition and the Grey Knights were right in ordering their deaths. The risk to countless trillions of other human lives was too great to risk allowing them to live.
The Space Wolves disagreed, and that is what kicked off all their problems, simply because they are too damn stupid to understand how insidious Chaos can be.
This is a one way you can interpret that situation.....Things are not that simple, but judging by your sig picture I see why you look at things that way...I could argue that represive measures fuel more chaos then some IG that saw Angron...
Now, I really like your comments but try to observe this situation from their pov....Also add a fully incopetent "I" lord in the equation.....
If you see demons, you get corrupted. People live in horrible conditions, and if they learn about demons, if they believe they do exist and can "help" you, they will become tainted. Cue massive demonic infestation as soon as a psyker gets corrupted.
This is the reason Grey Knights kill everyone when they are finished. And this is the reason the Inquisition kill billions to save humanity.
That's... nice. It doesn't change the fact that them being Desperate Allies to the sisters would make a player unable to recreate an actual BL publication (which is also "lore" in all definitions of the word, no matter how stupid some might see the book).
I don´t get why. In "Blood of Asaheim" the Sisters are not "allied" with the Wolves.
The Wolves look down upon the Sisters, insult them and treat them like cockroaches. They do not fight side by side, at any point, because the Sisters (like the PDF) are unworthy of it. They whine, cry for help, lose their faith, tremble in fear, smile meekly when insulted and keep their head down. One of them gets so infatuated with the manly wolves that betrays her Order to pass them information. And at the end they die horribly without accomplishing nothing. They do not fight together.
It is not a good book in any sense. It is bolter porn, and rather sexist. But even in you like it, it does not depict the Wolves as allies of the Sisters. They fight alone.
I get your "best-case" theory, but then it should be Battle Brothers to anyone. If you go by the fluff, Sisters and Astartes are wary of each other, as explained in Codex Sisters of Battle (the last one, second edition), page 50. It is long but, to put it short, Space Marines are heretics (seriously, they use the word heretic) and mutants, and prone to become traitors. But they are related to God, so it is complicated. So AoC sounds good to me. And the open war between Wolves and Sisters should push this into DA territory. The Ecclesiarchy ordered the Sisters to exterminate the Wolves, there is blood between them... and the Wolves are traitors in their eyes.
To the OP:
Also... Sisters and Tau? Sisters and Necrons? Being a zealot is part of the Sisters´ ethos: they will rather die. Recently we got Reasonable Marines everywhere, but the Sisters are still crazy. I like them that way.
Last thing: why not Chaos + Imperial guard = Lost and the Damned? Fallen Angels or Alpha Legion can be represented using Battle Brothers between the two armies.
Just my two cents. The rest of the chart looks fine to me.
However I would like to see Space Marines as Battle Brothers with Chaos Space Marines. Really. I can field a 100% loyalist chapter or a 100% traitor chapter. There should be something in the middle, a chapter that has recently turned traitor and has not yet exchanged the Land Speeders for Defilers.
Wait wait wait huh!? Is this seriously how the book portrayed Sisters of Battle!? My apologies, I really haven't read it, but huh?
Thing is... I like the Wolves. I think they're a fun faction...
.... but the writing about their actions post-Armageddon makes them idiots. Well-intentioned, noble idiots, but idiots all the same. We, the fairly-omniscient readers of 40K Codices and Fluff, *know* how sneaky and insidious Chaos is... and the Wolves, in their noble idiocy, played right into their/its hands.
It's a grimdark setting. Entire regiments of IG are executed, with full honors, following engagement with certain Xeno or Chaos forces. The Wolves, in their misguided noble nature (which... I dunno, they're Vikings. Nothing really that noble about the Vikings, as cool as they are.... they're pirates, brigands and reavers) tried to do something nice and end up causing all sorts of problems for themselves and the Imperium. This is, of course, grimdark as well (and, also, lives up to the cynical adage, "This is what you get for helping people...") but the main problem I have with it is that, provided the information we're given about the factions involved, the only reason the Space Wolves still exist to this day is because of their plot-armor. Any other Chapter, First Founding or not, would have been done away with. Either through Exterminatus or simple brute force of Battlefleets and other Marines coming in to either purge them or force them on a Penance Crusade.
Psienesis wrote: "Divided we stand" is an axiom within the Imperium.
The Wolves have flat-out denied that they violated the Edict of Nikea because they have Rune Priests, not Psykers or Librarians, and Rune Priests practice the "ancient nature magic of Fenris". This either makes them, A, liars (in direct opposition to the very words of the Emperor) or, B, sorcerers. Guess which one is a heretic?
The Wolves have directly opposed the explicit orders of the Inquisition, killed Grey Knights acting within their legal right to arrest and detain Logan Grimnar, and carried out protracted naval engagements against the GK and the Inquisition and killed an Inquisitor.
They're heretics. Not Chaos-aligned heretics, but heretics. They have directly opposed the legal orders of those who represent the Emperor's Will, and have (stupidly) allowed the taint of Chaos *massive* opportunities to spread throughout the Imperium.
How many of those refugees and soldiers departing from Armageddon carried within them the seeds of corruption? We'll never know. The Inquisition and the Grey Knights were right in ordering their deaths. The risk to countless trillions of other human lives was too great to risk allowing them to live.
The Space Wolves disagreed, and that is what kicked off all their problems, simply because they are too damn stupid to understand how insidious Chaos can be.
That's... nice. It doesn't change the fact that them being Desperate Allies to the sisters would make a player unable to recreate an actual BL publication (which is also "lore" in all definitions of the word, no matter how stupid some might see the book). Again, if you want an allies matrix that doesn't allow one to recreate BL publications, then say so. It can be "lore friendly" to studio only lore. However, your settings of them as Desperate Allies certainly isn't lore friendly to BL lore, which the current GW allies matrix generally is.
Allies Matrix should go by Codex based fluff only, maybe Forgeworld as well seeing as they typically keep things within the universe, Black Library has things like C.S goto for reasons why we'd never used Black Library as true canon.
Wait wait wait huh!? Is this seriously how the book portrayed Sisters of Battle!? My apologies, I really haven't read it, but huh?
There is a link to Furyou Miko's review in page 5 of this thread. And I concur with her.
Or perhaps it is a matter of interpretation, I do not react well to bolter porn. Here is a quote from BoA. I think it brings light to the Wolves attitude towards the Imperium.
Spoiler:
Until I got here I thought you were all stuck-up bitches, wearing a pale mockery of our sacred armour and pretending to fight like we do. I thought you were pious and arrogant.’
Callia suppressed a smile. ‘Stuck-up bitches,’ she said, amused. ‘That’s… candid.’
Jorundur shrugged. ‘I try to be. And don’t be surprised – our memories are long. Fenris has been attacked by your kind more than once.’
‘Not in living memory.’
Jorundur snorted. ‘In our living memory. You may have forgotten, but we have not. We tell sagas of it. We sing of how we sent your priests home, their robes stripped from their backs and their warships breaking open around them.’
Callia sighed. ‘I’m sure you do,’ she said. ‘But then you are a warlike people. Fenris has been attacked by the Inquisition too. You make enemies easily, it seems.’
‘We make no enemies but Traitors and xenos. If others choose to get in our way, that’s their business.’
On the (off-topic) matter on how the Sisters are depicted, keep in mind that the Sisters get easily murdered and are unable to stop three Chaos Space Marines. And they openly recognize that. Here is a conversation when they see a single CSM:
Spoiler:
Gunnlaugur snorted, his nostrils flaring. He looked pensive. ‘Your troops can’t kill it,’ he said.
De Chatelaine nodded. ‘I know. I hope yours can.’
Gunnlaugur didn’t smile that time, which surprised Bajola. Until then, his casual confidence had seemed inexhaustible.
We can kill anything,’ he said. ‘That’s what we do.’
De Chatelaine is a Canoness with access to Celestians in charge of the defense of a full world. The book is like that all the time. There is not a single point when a Sister does something right, and Wolves destroy thousands of soldiers, including tanks, with ease.
For the record, I like some of Chris Wraight´s books, and I love the Wolves. But the book is... just too much SW fanboyism, and (going on-topic again) the Wolves do not get along with the Sisters/Inquisition even in this book. This is part of their background, and should be represented in the Chart (IMO).
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Void__Dragon wrote: To be fair, as per the fluff, the lowliest Space Wolf is more than a match for any other Space Marine. As per Prospero Burns.
True.
But then again, a single Ultramarine is worth 1000 Word Bearers, as per the fluff. And then we have Draigo.
I think most of the fluff should be considered propaganda.
Okay sorry for deviating us all from the original part of this lore friendly structure. I just... I dunno these quotes from this book... just scream of bolter port, not knowing even slightly about Sisters Of Battle, making Space Wolves seem like the perfect little dandies, and now the Space Wolf being more than any other Space Marine against their iconic rival and then the Ultramarine = 1000 Word Bearers.... I've really made this stuff deviate xD (and to an extent really made me dissapointed in the fluff xD)
Also it makes me want to read a good SoB book or even a Scholar Progenum/Inquisitor/Ecclesiary book if there are any that exist.
Anyways, as noted, it doesn't seem like the Wolves and SoB work that well together even in this novel. It seems more like they can work in the same zone but never back to back (something I could see Salamanders or BT doing quite well) with the wolves.
Wait my apologies. So even in the first founding chapters you have worthless marines and good ones? Word Bearers are just as weak as your basic guardsmen and the largest chapter has more guys and is 1000x stronger then the second largest chapter but then you have Space Wolves that are more powerful than any Space Marine regardless of whether they are bionic or psyker as a commonality? This huh what I don't I mean huh?
And what of the Imperial Fist 100 soldiers for one marine or something? Wouldn't that be a good standardization but now there's 1000x and now being better than the best?
Okay anyways... what are some other parts besides the highly contentious SoBxBT, SoBxSW, and IGxCHAOS that might be possible "fluffy and lore friendly" edits
@da001
That stuff was very disappointing to read. Another BL book that gets the Sisters wrong. I'm saddened to think that, for some people, that will be their first impression of the Sisters.
I can only hope that the Sisters getting proper codex coverage once again will alleviate this in time, making their proper characterisation more well known.
Mr Morden wrote: A number of the Sisters die in the initial battle against the swarm but not as many as Cain expects and they achieve much more than he thought - in fact IIRC its the combination of the Sisters laying waste to synapse creatures and Cains headlong assault (ironically) with his vehicle and Jurgan that means they can all retreat safely - plus the Sister were the spearhead as they were leading fanatically devout PDf troops as well. They seem to have been making a successful tactical assault but an error on a strategic level - again not an unusual thing to happen to front line commanders
It still seems like a naive tactical blunder to me. Too naive, given the extensive military training of the Sisters. I like that they do have some level of competence when they fight, but that initial mistake still seems like too much of an error, to me.
Mr Morden wrote: IIRC Varen is able to take control over anyone he can see due to his Psyker abilities - I think that there are only five or six Sisters under direct control. [...] The point of having them here was to show the sheer power of Varens power - as you say Cain immediately dismisses the merest idea that the Sisters have turned
My issue with it is that, from what we're shown, he turns an entire Order. We never see or hear of any Sisters resisting his control. Sisters are known for having some of the strongest willpowers around, so it seems odd that he gets to go around turning them at his leisure.
TiamatRoar wrote: It doesn't matter whether it'd necessarily be chaos or not. If the wolves were made Desperate Allies to the sisters, then anyone fielding an SoB + Wolves army against a Chaos army on the table top would be forced to use Desperate Allies rules, and that would be so ridiculously unfluffy that the Chaos player should be obligated to have his Chaos Lord laugh at how stupid those Imperial forces are. This is likely one of the reasons why the Allies matrix has to take the "best" circumstances into account
Ah, but I was never arguing what the practical effects on the tabletop would be. Just that there's a strong case for them being desperate allies, based upon the fluff.
On a related note, your example about Chaos laughing at the divided Imperials could so easily be applied to the BT-SoB ally rating.
TiamatRoar wrote: Again, it's also a matter of being able to replicate fluff battles, like the Tau Marines battle brothers scenario. Maybe you and 95% of everyone else hates Blood of Asaheim. But clearly at least one person here likes it. Why should he hypothetically not be allowed to have his wolves and his sisters fight together like they do in an ACTUAL Black Library publicatoin (bad as it is or not) just because it doesn't agree with your idea of the lore? If I'm allowed to have my marines and Tau fight together as battle brothers just because they did so in one book, that should apply to the sisters and wolves as well. The allies matrix needs to confirm to a standard, and this seems to be one of those standards the GW one is confirming to.
As Psienesis said, I'd far rather that BL publications didn't have an influence on the allies matrix, thanks. Also, it doesn't get a pass because people like it. It's still quite deviant from the established lore. As I said earlier, should we accept the years of codex/studion fluff or a single novel written by a freelance author?
And didn't you yourself even agree that the SoB and Wolves just forgetting the incident was "hard to swallow" earlier in the thread? We don't have to just accept something simply because it's published by BL, you know. I can appreciate that there's a well-intentioned side to your argument here, trying to incorporate all the fluff that people may have read so as to not upset as many people, but that just doesn't work sometimes. We can either accept that the Sisters and Wolves are massively different in their mindset and have engaged in some pretty serious warfare, or that the two are willing to just forgive and forget an attempted purge. In this situation, I'd view going for the studio fluff as the more rational option.
TiamatRoar wrote: GW wants players to have options. They've made this VERY clear when they said all lore is valid.
So a random BL can come along, write a faction completely out of character, and be accepted as canon? That's certainly not a situation that I would enjoy.
TiamatRoar wrote: If you want an allies matrix that ignores the novels then say so. Don't go shoving it around a discussion involving GW's ally matrix, though
Having a different opinion is not shoving, bud. We've both been quite firm on our positions, so neither of us can really accuse the other of "shoving".
Orks and Imperial Guard should be battle brothers.
In the old Waaagh The Orks book, you could take imperial guard, human mercs, ogryn mercs and imperial vehicles in the Blood Axe army. You could lead human units with ork characters.
But then again, a single Ultramarine is worth 1000 Word Bearers, as per the fluff.
As supported by Know No Fear, where Word Bearers are basically guardsmen.
I was thinking on Know No Fear and Battle for the Abyss... there is something in Ultramarines and Wolves that makes BL writers go crazy with testosterone overload. Haven´t read Mark of Calth yet, but I truly believe what DarthMarko said.
@StarTrotter: about half the BL books are bolter porn, but there are some really good books out there. And bolter porn can be enjoyable if it is about your favourite faction.
@Troike: yes I hope the new "codex" (update, big faq, whatever) gives us something good. However, hope is the first step... We will see for ourselves soon enough.
In the old Waaagh The Orks book, you could take imperial guard, human mercs, ogryn mercs and imperial vehicles in the Blood Axe army. You could lead human units with ork characters.
^This. Also, isn´t there something about Khorne + Orks? Old style Stormboyz?
One thing puzzels me...Are BT worshipers or not ? There are lot of guys on B&C who think they are not....
Not sure... their background recently changed .
At the risk of being stoned to death by BT players, I will ignore the BT line in the Allies Chart, and treat them like vanilla marines. If you think about it, Salamanders, Marines Malevolent, Carcharodons, Ultramarines and Iron Hands should have different entries in the Chart... but it will be too complicated. Let the BT be another part of the vanilla SM.
I always read and saw the BT as believers - more so than the other Chapters and this is confirmed in all regards in the latest Codex - although to me at least it was heavily suggested in previous editions and again confirmed in BL novels - esp Helsreach.
There is a issue with the current Allies Chart - even mroe than before - before it was just stupid and now it flat out contradicts the Codex text. Most people want to read it that the BT follow standard Codex Marines but there is an argument for the the older (and patently wrong) table being the RAW.
@ Troike
I guess we disagree about the Sisters tactics in that one - they seemed to have set tactical goals which they were achieving but at the expense of likely being wiped out as resistance increased.
re the Sisters being taken over - again that's the whole point - if he can do it to Sisters - no one is safe, unless you happen to have a Priah with you....... They are being held up as a pargons (even by the one person in the book who doesn't like them) to demonstrate the sheer power the Chaos Warmaster has.
Total numbers of Sisters taken over are never shown - but there are five or six, IIRC with the Warmaster and as they will be being shown off that might be all he has. Its likely a small outpost and the signficance overblown in the rumours and propoganda.......
I'll have a read through over the weekend and see if I can extract more specifics.
I thought the sisters that were controlled jumped off a cliff rather than let him keep controlling them? Been a while since I read that so maybe I'm thinking of a different incident, but the point of the control was that resistance was utterly impossible in all regards, but also that it was actual puppet control, unlike say, selling your soul to Slaanesh technically of your own free will because you fell in love with it.
Until I got here I thought you were all stuck-up bitches, wearing a pale mockery of our sacred armour and pretending to fight like we do. I thought you were pious and arrogant.’
Callia suppressed a smile. ‘Stuck-up bitches,’ she said, amused. ‘That’s… candid.’
Jorundur shrugged. ‘I try to be. And don’t be surprised – our memories are long. Fenris has been attacked by your kind more than once.’
‘Not in living memory.’
Jorundur snorted. ‘In our living memory. You may have forgotten, but we have not. We tell sagas of it. We sing of how we sent your priests home, their robes stripped from their backs and their warships breaking open around them.’
Callia sighed. ‘I’m sure you do,’ she said. ‘But then you are a warlike people. Fenris has been attacked by the Inquisition too. You make enemies easily, it seems.’
‘We make no enemies but Traitors and xenos. If others choose to get in our way, that’s their business’
.
Well, one point of the book that's valid is that the majority of the sisters are a "new generation" compared to the latest incident that happened to the wolves in the vast majority of cases. Sisters "only" live as long as a normal human. Depending on the level of rejuvenat they receive, maybe they live up to 200 years or so at most ( I imagine rejuvant is reserved for only the greatest sisters though, and most of them probably die in combat before then anyways). Rejuvenat is typically portrayed as only reserved for heros of utmost importance the Imperium, like the Cardinal of Vraks (before he eventually died of old age and Xaphan took over), so most sisters that don't die in battle probably only live up to 100 years old or so with Imperium medical technology. The Ecclesiarchy incident in the fluff took place 111 years before 999.
Also, it is a huge galaxy. To some sisters, the wolves and their stories would be more far off distant legends than anything else. If anything, perhaps it really is the wolves who would be more likely to have personal tensions due to the fact that for them, it really IS personal, while to the average battle sister out of the many MANY battle sisters in the galaxy, it is but a curiousity and hearsay (hearsay, not heresy, in this context). However, at least going by BoA (though I haven't really seen much case otherwise for the fluff in general), the wolves only really care about traitors and xenos. Again, the Imperium shooting itself is standard procedure.
...Space Wolves being better than everyone else is also standard procedure in Black Library books (and arguably in Studio Fluff considering the crap they get away with and things like Logan being elected leader. EVERYONE at GW and BL seem to have a hard-on for the wolves). It's like, oh hey, yet another publication made everyone suck compared to the wolves. And now for the weather! If anything, BoA would be contradicting everything else if it didn't have the wolves be better than the sisters, because according to everyone with affiliations to GW, the wolves are ten-thousand times better than everyone. Besides maybe Matt Ward's Ultramarines. One could argue that the Battle Sisters being desperate allies with the wolves isn't "lore friendly" because the lore practically demands everyone love the wolves in-universe due to their Mary Sue status no matter what they do. "The wolves are loved or at least tolerated by everyone no matter what they do, so it is more lore-friendly for them to be AoC with the sisters cause going by the lore, they can do no wrong." In this hypothetical case on these hypothetical grounds, ignoring other arguments about what's "logical" and what isn't for a moment, what you should argue for is that the chart should NOT be lore-friendly because the lore is stupid. But then that leads to the problem of having to be selective about lore instead of following a standard.
Actually, if memory serves me, few sisters even live up to 100 years. The mortallity rate, or so memory serves me, is extremely high within the sisters and many have joked that 30 is old for such a SoB.
Let's be honest. The boner isn't just for SW. It's for all LOYALIST SPEES MUHRINEZ! Just look at the fluff of Ultramarines compared to Word Bearers. Heck look at a book of SM versus CSM. Quite a few will have the loyalists just ripping through. Admittedly I'd love to see the Wolves put down (you don't know how much I was rooting for the revenge of Magnus to actually do something like screw up their land, make them lose lots of guys, and just cripple them). Also to be blunt BoA just seems like a terrible piece of fiction which cis relatively sexist, bolter pronish, and stupid where the SoB are absolute dunces, guardsmen fools, and only the SPEES MURHINES CAN DO ANYTHING! And as usual it's an undersized group of them.
Mr Morden wrote:I always read and saw the BT as believers - more so than the other Chapters and this is confirmed in all regards in the latest Codex - although to me at least it was heavily suggested in previous editions and again confirmed in BL novels - esp Helsreach.
From what I've read, a lot of fans just did not want to see the Black Templars as believers in the God-Emperor, regardless of all the hints dropped in previous codices regarding their traditions. This included some freelance novel authors who either picked up on the idea from the community, or just interpreted it the same way. Unfortunately, given how "canon" is generally regarded in the community, this then led to a self-perpetuating conviction regarding this topic where opinions became "evidence".
All the new SM Codex did was having the BT "come out of the closet" and finally confirm what was being hinted at for so long. A number of the aforementioned fans don't like this development, however, and so they continue to argue against it, or at least decry this addition as a "change" when in fact it was merely addition or clarification.
TiamatRoar wrote:Well, one point of the book that's valid is that the majority of the sisters are a "new generation" compared to the latest incident that happened to the wolves in the vast majority of cases. [...] The Ecclesiarchy incident in the fluff took place 111 years before 999. [...] Also, it is a huge galaxy. To some sisters, the wolves and their stories would be more far off distant legends than anything else.
That wouldn't really change much. Conflicts such as these are certainly recorded in the Sisterhood's annals and their stories passed on from generation to generation, just like it happens in the Marine Chapters, and just like how the good relationship with the Black Templars came to be. The Sisterhood is much more networked like the Guard or the Astartes, with much transfer of personnel and knowledge between the convents. It is, for all intents and purposes, a single organisation with a single leader at the top, and the coordination of their many arms is what makes the Adepta Sororitas such a successful faction in terms of influencing Imperial policies.
To point at the Armageddon 3 website - if Canoness Carmina is aware that the Blood Angels Successors suffer from geneseed degradation because she knows of rumours within the Sororitas, I would assume she'd be aware of her own organisation having fought a War of Faith against some other Imperial faction.
TiamatRoar wrote:If anything, BoA would be contradicting everything else if it didn't have the wolves be better than the sisters, because according to everyone with affiliations to GW, the wolves are ten-thousand times better than everyone. Besides maybe Matt Ward's Ultramarines.
Not even the Ultras are remotely approaching the Space Wolves in this regard - I think it is chiefly the posterboy status of the Ultras, and again word of mouth within the community, that judges them unfairly compared to how the majority still seems to see the SW.
From what I've read, the Ultras are just really lucky, whereas the SW are plain better and can afford anything without fear of consequences, which is what made them so boring to me. For example, is there anything so silly in the Ultras' fluff as the Space Wolves managing to resist and throw back the armed might of the entire Segmentum Pacificus during the Age of Apostasy? We're talking roughly a fifth of the IoM here. And this isn't even novel fluff but was featured in - get this, irony over irony - the 2nd edition Codex: Sisters of Battle. trololol
Honestly, after reading that bit I just figured they should throw the Wolves into the Eye of Terror already. An army capable of pulling this off should have no problem eradicating the remaining CSM.
Also, was that really quotes from this Blood at Asaheim novel earlier? Wow, from Furyou's review I thought it was bad, but I didn't think it would be that bad. Saddening.
Mr Morden wrote:I always read and saw the BT as believers - more so than the other Chapters and this is confirmed in all regards in the latest Codex - although to me at least it was heavily suggested in previous editions and again confirmed in BL novels - esp Helsreach.
From what I've read, a lot of fans just did not want to see the Black Templars as believers in the God-Emperor, regardless of all the hints dropped in previous codices regarding their traditions. This included some freelance novel authors who either picked up on the idea from the community, or just interpreted it the same way. Unfortunately, given how "canon" is generally regarded in the community, this then led to a self-perpetuating conviction regarding this topic where opinions became "evidence".
All the new SM Codex did was having the BT "come out of the closet" and finally confirm what was being hinted at for so long. A number of the aforementioned fans don't like this development, however, and so they continue to argue against it, or at least decry this addition as a "change" when in fact it was merely addition or clarification.
No...
I can easilly pull up a selective memory card on that matter...Blind faith in the Emperor, leader of mankind =/= worshiping unconfirmed warp entity...
Lynata wrote: That wouldn't really change much. Conflicts such as these are certainly recorded in the Sisterhood's annals and their stories passed on from generation to generation, just like it happens in the Marine Chapters, and just like how the good relationship with the Black Templars came to be. The Sisterhood is much more networked like the Guard or the Astartes, with much transfer of personnel and knowledge between the convents. It is, for all intents and purposes, a single organisation with a single leader at the top, and the coordination of their many arms is what makes the Adepta Sororitas such a successful faction in terms of influencing Imperial policies.
To point at the Armageddon 3 website - if Canoness Carmina is aware that the Blood Angels Successors suffer from geneseed degradation because she knows of rumours within the Sororitas, I would assume she'd be aware of her own organisation having fought a War of Faith against some other Imperial faction.
And she's also not Desperate Allies with the Blood Angels nor does she show any personal distaste of them whatsoever (in fact, she's very lenient about the thing, saying "I've heard rumours of bad things" rather than "As we all know, they're vile but this is even more vile!"). The point is that to be Desperate Allies between two organizations that work ostensibly under the same umbrella (the Imperium/Emperor) would require a level of tension beyond just "stories passed down the annals".
Not even the Ultras are remotely approaching the Space Wolves in this regard - I think it is chiefly the posterboy status of the Ultras, and again word of mouth within the community, that judges them unfairly compared to how the majority still seems to see the SW.
From what I've read, the Ultras are just really lucky, whereas the SW are plain better and can afford anything without fear of consequences, which is what made them so boring to me. For example, is there anything so silly in the Ultras' fluff as the Space Wolves managing to resist and throw back the armed might of the entire Segmentum Pacificus during the Age of Apostasy? We're talking roughly a fifth of the IoM here. And this isn't even novel fluff but was featured in - get this, irony over irony - the 2nd edition Codex: Sisters of Battle. trololol
Yea. Ultramarines could be just mostly propaganda with the words of the codex. Fluff-wise they're similar to other Space Marines. Better than every non-Marine but still not reaching wolf levels.
As an aside, I actually referred to that event earlier (at least, I think I did) as one of the reasons why even the sisters should be smart enough to know that, no matter how much the wolves bare their fangs at the ecclesiarchy, they can at least be relied on to fight enemies of the Imperium. Any sister that knows her history would be VERY aware of Cardinal Bucharis' plague of unbelief (as if it being in the 2E SoB codex didn't make that obvious enough). Again, as far as we know, there isn't a single time in the Wolves' 10,000 years of history where, in the middle of battle with allied Imperial forces, they went and shot them in the back. Yea, I wouldn't be too surprised if it did happen sometime or another in 10,000 years since 10,000 years is a long friggin' time, but no more than any other Imperial organization (and likely less often than Blood Angels and probably Dark Angels, though the latter might have successfully covered up all the times it happened). The wolves' 10,000 years of history of combatting enemies of the Imperium is NOT a secret. If they weren't reliable regarding THAT, they would have officially been declared heretics long ago. The fact that they aren't, and the fact that it's bloody obvious to anyone why they haven't been, including all but the most blind of sisters I imagine, should be enough to allow a sister to at least maintain focus when fighting allied to a wolf.
Again, if the wolves fired on the Ecclesiarchy WITHOUT a warning, then that'd definitely be a case for Desperate Allies. Assuming they did give a warning though (we don't know either way due to how vague that quote is, but just hypothetically assuming), however, and presumably have always done so in the past, it's silly to keep One Eye Open against someone who you KNOW won't shoot you in the back in the middle of battle, while there are baby-eating merciless murderors in front of you (not just Chaos, but Orks and Dark Eldar, too). Sisters and Wolves are trained to value duty above all else. This isn't the real world where we could have selfish people who let personal pride affect their military duty. Both Sisters and Wolves have been trained almost since birth (literally in many sisters' case) to always follow their duty to the Emperor first and foremost above everything else. Again, if a sister had to explain to her cannoness that she missed the shot because she was worried about the wolf behind her, that canoness should give that sister a good Blaming. Furthermore,, sisters are human beings capable of forethought. Such as what to say to the Emperor if they fail in their duty and die. I'm sure more than one sister, if she really hated the wolves that much that she couldn't concentrate in battle, would also stop to consider what the meeting would be like if she had to explain to the Emperor that she failed to take the shot because she was too busy worrying about one of his astartes that was her ally.
That hypothetical scenario of a wolf + SoB desperate allies tabletop army allied against a chaos, ork, Dark Elf army just gets hilarious when you imagine the look on the Chaos/DE/Ork player's face if the SoB + Wolf player fails a One Eye Open roll at a critical moment. Hell, a Tau or Eldar player would also be justified in having a little IC roleplay of having their character be amused (or amazed) by the stupidity of the army against them.
Also, come to think about it, your counter argument to their duty against Chaos, "They see Wolves and Chaos as one and the same" , makes no sense because if THAT was the case, the sisters wouldn't be allying with the wolves AT ALL in the first place.
Honestly, after reading that bit I just figured they should throw the Wolves into the Eye of Terror already. An army capable of pulling this off should have no problem eradicating the remaining CSM.
They did. 13th Company, remember? 10,000 years of being in the Eye of Terror and still kicking Chaos butt.
Again, if the wolves fired on the Ecclesiarchy WITHOUT a warning, then that'd definitely be a case for Desperate Allies.
They did.
The Ecc entered the Fenris system to investigate the claims of heresy, the SW fired on them without warning. The Ecc left, went and got the battle-group, the war started.
Again, if the wolves fired on the Ecclesiarchy WITHOUT a warning, then that'd definitely be a case for Desperate Allies.
They did.
The Ecc entered the Fenris system to investigate the claims of heresy, the SW fired on them without warning. The Ecc left, went and got the battle-group, the war started.
That the Ecclesiarchy opened fire on the Space Wolves? That they were told to leave and refused to leave (hint: that means the SW are guilty of heresy)? That there was an orbital "weapons malfunction" that the Ecc simply did not accept as an excuse?
Sorry, given the actions of the Space Wolves over their history (and, specifically, the past decade or so in studio publications), you're not going to convince me that Ecclesiarchal or Inquisition forces are going to do more than go into battle with the Wolves only if there is, literally, no other option.
And I can *definitely* see certain Inquisitorial factions using the opportunity to ensure that the Wolves present "fight well, with honor... but, sadly, suffer 100% casualties to the fire of the enemy".
It's exact phrasing is "Amazingly, the Space Wolves open fire upon the Ecclesiarchy as soon as they come in range of the Fang's guns". Apart from that, the rest of what Psienesis says is definetely true, the Ecclesiarchy is there to investigate the Wolves for paganism, and they did call in the Sisters a year later.
No mention of any warnings being given, and it's described as "amazing" that the Wolves opened fire, which itself implies that the Wolves did not issue any warnings. So yeah, the Wolves are the ones who got aggressive first, and likely without giving warning.
Psienesis wrote: And I can *definitely* see certain Inquisitorial factions using the opportunity to ensure that the Wolves present "fight well, with honor... but, sadly, suffer 100% casualties to the fire of the enemy".
It needn't be that. Ork snipers can appear so suddenly and inflict such brutal casualties, you know.
Those Orkish Kommandos. They're so kunning. It is just like those vile Xenos to develop weapons with the *exact* ballistic parameters of a Vindicare's rifle...
TiamatRoar wrote:The point is that to be Desperate Allies between two organizations that work ostensibly under the same umbrella (the Imperium/Emperor) would require a level of tension beyond just "stories passed down the annals".
Like open warfare?
Really, you make it sound as if the Sisters would just "forgive and forget", when they're one of the most paranoid and fanatical organisations in existence. The case with the SW is beyond mere suspicion or rumours or even "stories", it's a logged event from their records about sanctioned warfare following the murder of Ecclesiarchal investigators who wanted to check them for signs of heresy. This isn't just hearsay - as an organisation this is first hand experience. Apart from that the Sisters would even take "stories passed down in annals" quite seriously.
TiamatRoar wrote:As an aside, I actually referred to that event earlier (at least, I think I did) as one of the reasons why even the sisters should be smart enough to know that, no matter how much the wolves bare their fangs at the ecclesiarchy, they can at least be relied on to fight enemies of the Imperium. Any sister that knows her history would be VERY aware of Cardinal Bucharis' plague of unbelief (as if it being in the 2E SoB codex didn't make that obvious enough). Again, as far as we know, there isn't a single time in the Wolves' 10,000 years of history where, in the middle of battle with allied Imperial forces, they went and shot them in the back.
The Plague of Unbelief does not change the Space Wolves' reputation at all - they merely defended their world. In fact, their inaction following this attack could very well be condemned as carelessness. Why didn't the Wolves help liberate the oppressed people?
Also, this event happened way, way earlier, before the Sisterhood was even founded. Yet suddenly they are supposed to believe in those stories? You're argueing against your own point with this one.
TiamatRoar wrote:Assuming they did give a warning though (we don't know either way due to how vague that quote is, but just hypothetically assuming), however, and presumably have always done so in the past, it's silly to keep One Eye Open against someone who you KNOW won't shoot you in the back in the middle of battle, while there are baby-eating merciless murderors in front of you (not just Chaos, but Orks and Dark Eldar, too).
I do not agree. Considering the stories about Space Marines propagated by the Ecclesiarchy, and the fact of armed warfare between the two parties, and the murder of a priestly delegation - I for one would definitively keep an eye on those guys. They don't have to have a "history" of shooting people in the back, merely be under suspicion of doing so in the future. And considering historical events as well as the "hearsay" about the SW within the ranks of the Ministorum, I remain convinced that this is the case. After all, why would they have shot those priests if they were pure of body and soul? And if they are not pure, what are they, then...? Try to think like a Sister would.
TiamatRoar wrote:Again, if a sister had to explain to her cannoness that she missed the shot because she was worried about the wolf behind her, that canoness should give that sister a good Blaming.
You're missing that with the Sisters, scepticism and wariness against corruption is part of their duty, and failing to recognise it would mean failing the Emperor.
TiamatRoar wrote:Also, come to think about it, your counter argument to their duty against Chaos, "They see Wolves and Chaos as one and the same" , makes no sense because if THAT was the case, the sisters wouldn't be allying with the wolves AT ALL in the first place.
Can you please STOP misquoting me? This is the second time you are acting as if I ever said that. If they saw SW and Chaos as one and the same, I would be argueing for Come the Apocalypse, not Desperate Allies. Desperate Allies is the justified but unconfirmed suspicion that they are close to falling, or perhaps already are corrupted and just biding their time.
TiamatRoar wrote:They did. 13th Company, remember? 10,000 years of being in the Eye of Terror and still kicking Chaos butt.
Yeah, but they haven't slain a single Chaos Primarch yet. What gives?!
Sisters of Battle and the Inquisition are two different things. I suspect many sisters would be appalled if they were asked to be snipers tasked with shooting their own allies in the middle of battle. That's what the Official Assassinorium is for.
The Plague of Unbelief does not change the Space Wolves' reputation at all - they merely defended their world. In fact, their inaction following this attack could very well be condemned as carelessness. Why didn't the Wolves help liberate the oppressed people?
Also, this event happened way, way earlier, before the Sisterhood was even founded. Yet suddenly they are supposed to believe in those stories? You're argueing against your own point with this one.
The point is that story is just as valid to a sister who's never met a Space Wolf person as the stories of Space Wolves openly resisting various Imperial factions as well, along with many other stories and legends of Space Wolves fighting for the Imperium.
As an aside, I've been researching into Studio Fluff a bit more and Space Wolves are listed as being a possible ally to Witch Hunters back in the Witch Hunters Codex. Perhaps you may have all your ideas of how sisters of battle and wolves interact, but GW seems to be consistently disagreeing with you all. Of course, without interviewing them, I can't say WHY they seem to be disagreeing with you, but I'm going to assume they know their own fluff and how their sisters and wolves would react on such things better than you all do.
Irony is sisters are corrupt....They follow Lorgar's teachings no matter how you wrap it + they are completely the opposite what big E was trying to accomplish...
Also no matter how you put them, they hold no authority over SM (unlike "I" which is on another level )...
P.S. I think Lynata cheered for Bucharis
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TiamatRoar wrote: Sisters of Battle and the Inquisition are two different things. I suspect many sisters would be appalled if they were asked to be snipers tasked with shooting their own allies in the middle of battle. That's what the Official Assassinorium is for.
The Plague of Unbelief does not change the Space Wolves' reputation at all - they merely defended their world. In fact, their inaction following this attack could very well be condemned as carelessness. Why didn't the Wolves help liberate the oppressed people?
Also, this event happened way, way earlier, before the Sisterhood was even founded. Yet suddenly they are supposed to believe in those stories? You're argueing against your own point with this one.
The point is that story is just as valid to a sister who's never met a Space Wolf person as the stories of Space Wolves openly resisting various Imperial factions as well, along with many other stories and legends of Space Wolves fighting for the Imperium.
As an aside, I've been researching into Studio Fluff a bit more and Space Wolves are listed as being a possible ally to Witch Hunters back in the Witch Hunters Codex. Perhaps you may have all your ideas of how sisters of battle and wolves interact, but GW seems to be consistently disagreeing with you all. Of course, without interviewing them, I can't say WHY they seem to be disagreeing with you, but I'm going to assume they know their own fluff and how their sisters and wolves would react on such things better than you all do.
This is too much to read but has it be suggested that maybe a roll off is done before the game to determine the status of the relationship? Like dark angels and space wolves. Both are astartes so they can and will work together as needed but on a roll of 4-6 they are battle brothers and a roll of 1-3 they are convenience susggesting the rivalry is strained.
TiamatRoar wrote:The point is that story is just as valid to a sister who's never met a Space Wolf person as the stories of Space Wolves openly resisting various Imperial factions as well, along with many other stories and legends of Space Wolves fighting for the Imperium.
No, it's not. We do not even know if this is known to the wider Imperium, considering that this event was limited to a section of space cut off from Terra and the rest by a huge Warp Storm, and that everyone who was sent to Fenris is dead.
It is also an event that happened several millennia earlier, and did not involve either the Thorian Ecclesiarchy nor the Sisters of Battle, who would have their own records about the battles they themselves fought, and the investigations they themselves carried out.
You first argueing that they'd forget about Fenris because it happened 100 years ago, but then claiming that stories about an event that happened 4.000 years earlier should be relevant (otherwise you would not have brought it up), is quite simply a contradiction.
TiamatRoar wrote:As an aside, I've been researching into Studio Fluff a bit more and Space Wolves are listed as being a possible ally to Witch Hunters back in the Witch Hunters Codex.
And as I said earlier, I am in favour of making them Desperate Allies - how does this contradict GW? Whose writers are apparently quite fine with creating serious conflict between the Ecclesiarchy and the Wolves up to and including planetary invasion?
DarthMarko wrote:Irony is sisters are corrupt....They follow Lorgar's teachings no matter how you wrap it + they are completely the opposite what big E was trying to accomplish...
It doesn't get any more true regardless of how often you repeat it. As per Codex fluff, the Ecclesiarchy was founded by Fatidicus and is built upon his teachings, as well as those of Sebastian Thor. Just because you feel like goading Ecclesiarchy players with this little theory of yours does not make this supposed link any more abstract. Contrary to what you are trying to tell us, "Lorgar came up with a cult" does not mean that every single cult that followed over the millennia of history afterwards must absolutely be related to him or his weird book. You'd have to wait until some writer actually makes that connection, but I don't see this happening in studio fluff, given how little of the Horus Heresy ideas GW has adopted into the rulebooks (null?).
It's also worth pointing out that, in studio fluff, the Emperor gives a rat's ass about religion. In the Index Astartes article, the only reason provided as to why he was angry at the Word Bearers was that they were wasting time they should've spent conquering more planets.
If you're placing the freelancer novels above the codices, fine - this is a valid option, given how fluff works in 40k. You can even believe in this link between Lorgar and the Ecclesiarchy if it makes you happy. But please stop trying to sell this as an irrevocable fact - somebody might actually end up believing it.
DarthMarko wrote:Also no matter how you put them, they hold no authority over SM (unlike "I" which is on another level )...
The High Lords, of which the Ecclesiarch is part of, on the other hand do.
DarthMarko wrote:P.S. I think Lynata cheered for Bucharis
How did you get this idea?
namiel wrote:This is too much to read but has it be suggested that maybe a roll off is done before the game to determine the status of the relationship? Like dark angels and space wolves. Both are astartes so they can and will work together as needed but on a roll of 4-6 they are battle brothers and a roll of 1-3 they are convenience susggesting the rivalry is strained.
Hmm, it's an interesting idea, but wouldn't this mess with people's personal fluff about their armies if relations change at random?
DarthMarko wrote: Irony is sisters are corrupt....They follow Lorgar's teachings no matter how you wrap it + they are completely the opposite what big E was trying to accomplish...
Even if one does claim that they're following Lorgar's teachings, I don't see how this makes them corrupt. He wrote that stuff while he was still worshiping the Emperor, and before he fell to Chaos worship. There's nothing corrupt about it, it's sincere worship of the Emperor.
Also, the Imperial Creed is the Imperium's official religion, so you can level accusations of "not fitting the Emperor's plans" at pretty much the entire Imperium.
DarthMarko wrote:Irony is sisters are corrupt....They follow Lorgar's teachings no matter how you wrap it + they are completely the opposite what big E was trying to accomplish...
It doesn't get any more true regardless of how often you repeat it. As per Codex fluff, the Ecclesiarchy was founded by Fatidicus and is built upon his teachings, as well as those of Sebastian Thor. Just because you feel like goading Ecclesiarchy players with this little theory of yours does not make this supposed link any more abstract. Contrary to what you are trying to tell us, "Lorgar came up with a cult" does not mean that every single cult that followed over the millennia of history afterwards must absolutely be related to him or his weird book. You'd have to wait until some writer actually makes that connection, but I don't see this happening in studio fluff, given how little of the Horus Heresy ideas GW has adopted into the rulebooks (null?).
It's also worth pointing out that, in studio fluff, the Emperor gives a rat's ass about religion. In the Index Astartes article, the only reason provided as to why he was angry at the Word Bearers was that they were wasting time they should've spent conquering more planets.
If you're placing the freelancer novels above the codices, fine - this is a valid option, given how fluff works in 40k. You can even believe in this link between Lorgar and the Ecclesiarchy if it makes you happy. But please stop trying to sell this as an irrevocable fact - somebody might actually end up believing it.
Yeap, but think - without Lorgar, without fanatics who hold back the entire civilization, what would be the point of grimdark and sweet irony which came after heresy ? It would really make sisters rather dull and boring...
And the link between Lorgar and sisterhood is an irrevocable fact...Guy was preaching the same stuff they are preaching now and he was sanctioned for doing that (brutally) - FACT...
DarthMarko wrote: Irony is sisters are corrupt....They follow Lorgar's teachings no matter how you wrap it + they are completely the opposite what big E was trying to accomplish...
Even if one does claim that they're following Lorgar's teachings, I don't see how this makes them corrupt. He wrote that stuff while he was still worshiping the Emperor, and before he fell to Chaos worship. There's nothing corrupt about it, it's sincere worship of the Emperor.
Also, the Imperial Creed is the Imperium's official religion, so you can level accusations of "not fitting the Emperor's plans" at pretty much the entire Imperium.
I'm lucky that SM are still SM...Well maybe not all of them, but majority is still holds " ignore religion list "....
DarthMarko wrote: Irony is sisters are corrupt....They follow Lorgar's teachings no matter how you wrap it + they are completely the opposite what big E was trying to accomplish...
Even if one does claim that they're following Lorgar's teachings, I don't see how this makes them corrupt. He wrote that stuff while he was still worshiping the Emperor, and before he fell to Chaos worship. There's nothing corrupt about it, it's sincere worship of the Emperor.
Also, the Imperial Creed is the Imperium's official religion, so you can level accusations of "not fitting the Emperor's plans" at pretty much the entire Imperium.
There is one problem...Nobody asked the LIVING emperor what he thinks about that...! Now, I'm not disputing your words, I'm just mixing up a little...
DarthMarko wrote: I'm lucky that SM are still SM...Well maybe not all of them, but majority is still on " ignore religion list "....
I like that some Marines are religious, myself. It adds some diversity to them. If they can fall to Chaos worship, then why can't a few get into Emperor worship?
Also, it makes this picture pretty much canon.
Spoiler:
DarthMarko wrote: There is one problem...Nobody asked the LIVING emperor what he thinks about that...! Now, I'm not disputing your words, I'm just mixing up a little...
True, but he might be able to appreciate the Imperial Creed's role in keeping the Imperium together for this long. Better a relgious Imperium than a divided one being picked apart piecemeal by Chaos, right?
Only because fans want to believe that. It's not supported by logic or the setting.
First Founding Chapters? Maybe... though only 1 person from the time of the Heresy is still alive in one of those Chapters, and he's only awake once every thousand years or so. Even in the First Founding Chapters, its recruits are coming from worlds where people *do* believe in the divinity of the God-Emperor.
Anything after? Probably not. Why? Because the people these Chapters are recruiting from are Imperial Citizens. No matter what world you live on, whether that's Necromunda, Cadia, Catachan, Seti-Alpha 5, Pry 52 or some unnamed Feral World hell-hole, the Ecclesiarchy has been there, and preaches the divinity of the God-Emperor of Mankind, whether that worship takes the form of Space-Catholicism, pagan veneration of the Sky-Father, or some other practice, it's all the same Imperial Creed.
They're not going to spend their time inducting someone into the Space Marines and then tell them "you know, about that whole divinity thing? Yeah, it's not true...". Bad for morale, undermines the hypnoindoctrination, and doesn't really matter.
... mainly because *no one*, not even Bjorn, remembers the Emperor's great plan or that he was an "atheist" scientist. Bjorn was, at the time, a cup-bearer. He did not get to sit in on the Emperor's planning meetings, go to the labs to see him work science, or anything like that. Dude was Russ' cup-bearer. He just happens to still be around now.
This is carried out, too, in DoW. Listen to the Blood Ravens' various unit responses, "Through the death of our enemies, do we earn our salvation", "Venerate the Immortal Emperor", and a series of additional, religiously-themed phrases.
DarthMarko wrote: I'm lucky that SM are still SM...Well maybe not all of them, but majority is still on " ignore religion list "....
I like that some Marines are religious, myself. It adds some diversity to them. If they can fall to Chaos worship, then why can't a few get into Emperor worship?
DarthMarko wrote: There is one problem...Nobody asked the LIVING emperor what he thinks about that...! Now, I'm not disputing your words, I'm just mixing up a little...
True, but he might be able to appreciate the Imperial Creed's role in keeping the Imperium together for this long. Better a relgious Imperium than a divided one being picked apart piecemeal by Chaos, right?
DarthMarko wrote:Yeap, but think - without Lorgar, without fanatics who hold back the entire civilization, what would be the point of grimdark and sweet irony which came after heresy ? It would really make sisters rather dull and boring...
It would. But this has nothing to do with Lorgar. The Ecclesiarchy and its background existed long before anyone was even contemplating the idea of Lorgar writing some book. He is quite simply completely irrelevant to the history of the Adeptus Ministorum, and this grimdark religious nonsense which I value highly too.
DarthMarko wrote:And the link between Lorgar and sisterhood is an irrevocable fact...Guy was preaching the same stuff they are preaching now and he was sanctioned for doing that (brutally) - FACT...
Nope. He was one of many who preached the Emperor is a god. This idea is neither unique nor in any way special. As I said earlier, thousands of cults sprang up all across the Imperium, and Lorgar's beliefs were just one of many, just like Fatidicus'. The difference would be that the worlds affected by Lorgar's teachings were probably scoured during the Heresy, given that they were Traitor Planets.
Or can you point out further specific similarities between Lorgar's idea and the Imperial Creed other than the rather general "Emprah = god"? Because Lorgar certainly doesn't have the exclusive patent on that.
DarthMarko wrote:I'm lucky that SM are still SM...Well maybe not all of them, but majority is still holds " ignore religion list "....
On that note, I'd really like to read more about this Cardinal World located in Ultramar. This is a pretty new piece of fluff I would not have expected.
DarthMarko wrote:So slow death is better than a quick one ?
Of course! A slow death allows the dying to cling to the hope that a miracle may still happen. It also allows countless humans to grow up untouched by the horrors of Chaos, even if their lives are still (mostly) miserable.
Psienesis wrote:Anything after? Probably not. Why? Because the people these Chapters are recruiting from are Imperial Citizens. No matter what world you live on, whether that's Necromunda, Cadia, Catachan, Seti-Alpha 5, Pry 52 or some unnamed Feral World hell-hole, the Ecclesiarchy has been there, and preaches the divinity of the God-Emperor of Mankind, whether that worship takes the form of Space-Catholicism, pagan veneration of the Sky-Father, or some other practice, it's all the same Imperial Creed.
They're not going to spend their time inducting someone into the Space Marines and then tell them "you know, about that whole divinity thing? Yeah, it's not true...". Bad for morale, undermines the hypnoindoctrination, and doesn't really matter.
This is a pretty interesting detail. I hadn't considered this before.
Now, Space Marine fiefs are traditionally exempt from Ministorum control, so at places where the Ecclesiarchy did not preach before, the Marines could say "keep yer grubby hands off" (and a lot will probably do this) - but all those Fleet-based Chapters would indeed recruit aspirants who have grown up in an environment whose native faith has been manipulated by the Missionarius Galaxia and the Orders Sabine. In most cases, this is probably somewhat alleviated by the local religion being very basic and primitive due to most recruitment supposedly happening on Feral Worlds - but the Imperial Fists and their recruitment on Necromunda give a good example to the exceptions.
Technically, it should affect the recruiting Chapters just as much as local culture on Feral worlds can turn a Chapter to cannibalism etc.
While it is implied that the Space Marine Homeworlds are "off limits" to certain other aspects of the Imperium, I would think that someplace like Ultramar, with its billions of residents, has an Ecclesiarchal presence. I would find it ludicrious to believe that it's a planet of agnostics or atheists, or that they're permitted to worship the Ultramarines as gods.
And I think this would hold true of *most* other Imperial Worlds, regardless of whether or not they are the homeworld of a Space Marine Chapter or not. There's a thousand Chapters floating around out there and, sure, some of them are fleet-based, but that is in the very far minority of Chapters.
And, as we've seen in DoW, the homeworld of the Blood Ravens was littered with Imperial Shrines and Ecclesiarchal relics. There's no way the people being accepted into that Chapter did not believe in the divinity of the God-Emperor, the planet was practically a Shrine World with that many temples sitting around.
Now that I think about it, the number of First Founding Chapters that are adherents to the Imperial Creed is probably more than I originally expected. I mean, hell, the Imperial Fists claim *Terra* as their Homeworld. There's *definitely* an Ecclesiarchal presence there... and, of course, the God-Emperor Himself. This probably extends to any Successor Chapter as well, as their core values and practices will be handed down by the IF veterans who formed their leadership.
Also, the IF use the "Him on Earth" as part of their battlecry, which is also used by the Ecclesiarchy.
I just don't see the Ecclesiarchy being OK with letting the potentially-billions of Imperial Citizens live on worlds where they do not have a hand in their spiritual well-being, especially in an era of the post-Heresy. I would think the High Lords would be *very* keen on keeping the potential recruits of a Space Marine Chapter "in the flock", to potentially head off instances of heresy.
^ I completely disagree with you...I'm fairly certain that majority of chapters just close one eye to ecclesiarchy...This doesn't make them worshipers...
Also, every chapter has their OWN rites of indoctrination which pretty much resets them to their tradition....
and using a DoW as canon is weak, dude...No offense....
This actually begs to question.. Well how does that work in connection to the 40k fluff that seems to claim that a majority (or so I have seemingly come to believe) view the Emperor as only the greatest man. Would perhaps the degree of indoctrination rip out this aspect or some of the brain modifiers edit these aspects?
In terms of DoW. It's about as weak as the crummy SW book AoB. Also I'd argue it is better in terms of fluffiness and it has khornate sorcerers
Psienesis wrote:While it is implied that the Space Marine Homeworlds are "off limits" to certain other aspects of the Imperium, I would think that someplace like Ultramar, with its billions of residents, has an Ecclesiarchal presence. I would find it ludicrious to believe that it's a planet of agnostics or atheists, or that they're permitted to worship the Ultramarines as gods.
Well, in the new SM Codex it is said that Ultramar includes a "Cardinal World" - but I would imagine that this is a case of the Ultras being okay with it, perhaps because they have realised that these religious teachings have their value on the population, or perhaps because they don't bother as long as the Ecclesiarchy doesn't interfere with their Chapter's internal business. Could also be an example of the Ultras cooperative spirit, smoothing relationships with other Imperial institutions.
"With the backing of the Adeptus Terra, the growing Ecclesiarchy increased its hold on Imperial citizens until, by the end of the 33rd millennium, there was no open worship in the Imperium save for that condoned by the Adeptus Ministorum. The only exceptions were planets controlled by the Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus, who were begrudgingly allowed to keep their unique traditions. This is still the case in the 41st millennium, although in the long ages since, this has led to some distrust, strife and occasionally even open war between the differing parties." - 6E Rulebook p.158
Psienesis wrote:While it is implied that the Space Marine Homeworlds are "off limits" to certain other aspects of the Imperium, I would think that someplace like Ultramar, with its billions of residents, has an Ecclesiarchal presence. I would find it ludicrious to believe that it's a planet of agnostics or atheists, or that they're permitted to worship the Ultramarines as gods.
Well, in the new SM Codex it is said that Ultramar includes a "Cardinal World" - but I would imagine that this is a case of the Ultras being okay with it, perhaps because they have realised that these religious teachings have their value on the population, or perhaps because they don't bother as long as the Ecclesiarchy doesn't interfere with their Chapter's internal business. Could also be an example of the Ultras cooperative spirit, smoothing relationships with other Imperial institutions.
"With the backing of the Adeptus Terra, the growing Ecclesiarchy increased its hold on Imperial citizens until, by the end of the 33rd millennium, there was no open worship in the Imperium save for that condoned by the Adeptus Ministorum. The only exceptions were planets controlled by the Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus, who were begrudgingly allowed to keep their unique traditions. This is still the case in the 41st millennium, although in the long ages since, this has led to some distrust, strife and occasionally even open war between the differing parties." - 6E Rulebook p.158
Of course it depends on what those traditions are, some of the space marine chapters were culled when it was discovered how they worshipped, or that they didn't have the claught to stop the Inquisitors from declaring Heresy.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Of course it depends on what those traditions are, some of the space marine chapters were culled when it was discovered how they worshipped, or that they didn't have the claught to stop the Inquisitors from declaring Heresy.
Very true, "doctrinal heresy" can quickly bring a Sororitas Purge Squadron to your door, accompanied by a grumpy Inquisitor flashing his/her rosette and some piece of paper saying "pwnd".
Let's just say there is a lot more leeway (in that there is any leeway at all) between "worshipping the Emprah" and "worshipping something else" (or nothing at all) granted to Space Marine worlds than to anyone else, with exception of the Cult Mechanicus. Also depends on the individual Chapter's history and estimated "value", of course. Some of them are granted more than others.
ZebioLizard2 wrote:Of course it depends on what those traditions are, some of the space marine chapters were culled when it was discovered how they worshipped, or that they didn't have the claught to stop the Inquisitors from declaring Heresy.
Very true, "doctrinal heresy" can quickly bring a Sororitas Purge Squadron to your door, accompanied by a grumpy Inquisitor flashing his/her rosette and some piece of paper saying "pwnd".
Let's just say there is a lot more leeway (in that there is any leeway at all) between "worshipping the Emprah" and "worshipping something else" (or nothing at all) granted to Space Marine worlds than to anyone else, with exception of the Cult Mechanicus. Also depends on the individual Chapter's history and estimated "value", of course. Some of them are granted more than others.
Very true, such as a First Founding legion such as the Sons of Fenris.
Yup! They've even been named in precisely this connection in the Index Astartes article on Renegade Space Marines, as an example where the Inquisition would have long ago intervened due to the geneseed corruption ... were it a lesser Chapter, with a less proud history.
Still, whilst I think this makes a viable excuse to "overlook" genetic corruption and weird traditions, I think the SW are granted too much leeway by some writers, in particular where novel fluff is involved. Geeking an Inquisitor is pretty much an affront to the entire organisation, regardless of their internal rivalries. They may sabotage and assassinate each other all the time, but when an outsider does that it kind of makes the Inquisition as a group feel less immune and powerful. Something which even potential enemies of that Inquisitor would strive to avoid (as much as they'd giggle about his or her death when nobody looks).
Really IG could be battle brothers with damn near anyone (Except maybe the Nids....they'd probably just be food instead of battle buddies). DE could take them as slaves, Eldar work with however advances their cause, Tau have the auxiliaries, Chaos has the traitor guard, Cron could feasibly ally with IG for specific goals not too mention the possibility of negotiating with a planetary governor to make it happen, and of course the SM/SoB fighting alongside them for the emperor.
"Either call in an Inquisitor, or bring the Imperial Navy to bombard these animals from space, but my Order will not fight alongside the Flesh Tearers again, I swear it. By the Immortal Emperor and everything I hold to be Holy, my Sisters will not risk themselves by allying with savages, regardless of your own wishes"
they eat some ork prisoners . . so what SOB just didnt want to be next on the menu ;-) allies just isnt gonna happen
Sir Arun wrote:
- Templars and Sisters are fervently devout to the Emperor, and make for battle brothers.
The Catholics and Protestants have historically been the same way about God.
The Templars should be allies of convenience with Sisters and GK. Especially if you're making the Dark Angels AoC to them. Those are just two factions that don't get along too well with anyone.
Some Space Marine players liked to interpret previous fluff like that, but the truth is that this isn't GW's intention and was nothing but wishful thinking.
As per Codex Space Marines fluff, the Black Templars are best buddies with the Sisters and keep brofisting each other after mutual "slay the heathen" tours.
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