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 DarthMarko wrote:
Irony is sisters are corrupt....They follow Lorgar's teachings no matter how you wrap it + they are completely the opposite what big E was trying to accomplish...

Even if one does claim that they're following Lorgar's teachings, I don't see how this makes them corrupt. He wrote that stuff while he was still worshiping the Emperor, and before he fell to Chaos worship. There's nothing corrupt about it, it's sincere worship of the Emperor.

Also, the Imperial Creed is the Imperium's official religion, so you can level accusations of "not fitting the Emperor's plans" at pretty much the entire Imperium.

 Lynata wrote:

DarthMarko wrote:Irony is sisters are corrupt....They follow Lorgar's teachings no matter how you wrap it + they are completely the opposite what big E was trying to accomplish...

It doesn't get any more true regardless of how often you repeat it. As per Codex fluff, the Ecclesiarchy was founded by Fatidicus and is built upon his teachings, as well as those of Sebastian Thor. Just because you feel like goading Ecclesiarchy players with this little theory of yours does not make this supposed link any more abstract. Contrary to what you are trying to tell us, "Lorgar came up with a cult" does not mean that every single cult that followed over the millennia of history afterwards must absolutely be related to him or his weird book. You'd have to wait until some writer actually makes that connection, but I don't see this happening in studio fluff, given how little of the Horus Heresy ideas GW has adopted into the rulebooks (null?).

It's also worth pointing out that, in studio fluff, the Emperor gives a rat's ass about religion. In the Index Astartes article, the only reason provided as to why he was angry at the Word Bearers was that they were wasting time they should've spent conquering more planets.

If you're placing the freelancer novels above the codices, fine - this is a valid option, given how fluff works in 40k. You can even believe in this link between Lorgar and the Ecclesiarchy if it makes you happy. But please stop trying to sell this as an irrevocable fact - somebody might actually end up believing it.

Yeap, but think - without Lorgar, without fanatics who hold back the entire civilization, what would be the point of grimdark and sweet irony which came after heresy ? It would really make sisters rather dull and boring...

And the link between Lorgar and sisterhood is an irrevocable fact...Guy was preaching the same stuff they are preaching now and he was sanctioned for doing that (brutally) - FACT...




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Irony is sisters are corrupt....They follow Lorgar's teachings no matter how you wrap it + they are completely the opposite what big E was trying to accomplish...

Even if one does claim that they're following Lorgar's teachings, I don't see how this makes them corrupt. He wrote that stuff while he was still worshiping the Emperor, and before he fell to Chaos worship. There's nothing corrupt about it, it's sincere worship of the Emperor.

Also, the Imperial Creed is the Imperium's official religion, so you can level accusations of "not fitting the Emperor's plans" at pretty much the entire Imperium.

I'm lucky that SM are still SM...Well maybe not all of them, but majority is still holds " ignore religion list "....


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Troike wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
Irony is sisters are corrupt....They follow Lorgar's teachings no matter how you wrap it + they are completely the opposite what big E was trying to accomplish...

Even if one does claim that they're following Lorgar's teachings, I don't see how this makes them corrupt. He wrote that stuff while he was still worshiping the Emperor, and before he fell to Chaos worship. There's nothing corrupt about it, it's sincere worship of the Emperor.

Also, the Imperial Creed is the Imperium's official religion, so you can level accusations of "not fitting the Emperor's plans" at pretty much the entire Imperium.

There is one problem...Nobody asked the LIVING emperor what he thinks about that...! Now, I'm not disputing your words, I'm just mixing up a little...

 DarthMarko wrote:
I'm lucky that SM are still SM...Well maybe not all of them, but majority is still on " ignore religion list "....

I like that some Marines are religious, myself. It adds some diversity to them. If they can fall to Chaos worship, then why can't a few get into Emperor worship?

Also, it makes this picture pretty much canon.

Only because fans want to believe that. It's not supported by logic or the setting.

First Founding Chapters? Maybe... though only 1 person from the time of the Heresy is still alive in one of those Chapters, and he's only awake once every thousand years or so. Even in the First Founding Chapters, its recruits are coming from worlds where people *do* believe in the divinity of the God-Emperor.

Anything after? Probably not. Why? Because the people these Chapters are recruiting from are Imperial Citizens. No matter what world you live on, whether that's Necromunda, Cadia, Catachan, Seti-Alpha 5, Pry 52 or some unnamed Feral World hell-hole, the Ecclesiarchy has been there, and preaches the divinity of the God-Emperor of Mankind, whether that worship takes the form of Space-Catholicism, pagan veneration of the Sky-Father, or some other practice, it's all the same Imperial Creed.

They're not going to spend their time inducting someone into the Space Marines and then tell them "you know, about that whole divinity thing? Yeah, it's not true...". Bad for morale, undermines the hypnoindoctrination, and doesn't really matter.

... mainly because *no one*, not even Bjorn, remembers the Emperor's great plan or that he was an "atheist" scientist. Bjorn was, at the time, a cup-bearer. He did not get to sit in on the Emperor's planning meetings, go to the labs to see him work science, or anything like that. Dude was Russ' cup-bearer. He just happens to still be around now.

This is carried out, too, in DoW. Listen to the Blood Ravens' various unit responses, "Through the death of our enemies, do we earn our salvation", "Venerate the Immortal Emperor", and a series of additional, religiously-themed phrases.

 Troike wrote:

 DarthMarko wrote:
I'm lucky that SM are still SM...Well maybe not all of them, but majority is still on " ignore religion list "....

I like that some Marines are religious, myself. It adds some diversity to them. If they can fall to Chaos worship, then why can't a few get into Emperor worship?

 DarthMarko wrote:
There is one problem...Nobody asked the LIVING emperor what he thinks about that...! Now, I'm not disputing your words, I'm just mixing up a little...

True, but he might be able to appreciate the Imperial Creed's role in keeping the Imperium together for this long. Better a relgious Imperium than a divided one being picked apart piecemeal by Chaos, right?

DarthMarko wrote:Yeap, but think - without Lorgar, without fanatics who hold back the entire civilization, what would be the point of grimdark and sweet irony which came after heresy ? It would really make sisters rather dull and boring...

It would. But this has nothing to do with Lorgar. The Ecclesiarchy and its background existed long before anyone was even contemplating the idea of Lorgar writing some book. He is quite simply completely irrelevant to the history of the Adeptus Ministorum, and this grimdark religious nonsense which I value highly too.

DarthMarko wrote:And the link between Lorgar and sisterhood is an irrevocable fact...Guy was preaching the same stuff they are preaching now and he was sanctioned for doing that (brutally) - FACT...

Nope. He was one of many who preached the Emperor is a god. This idea is neither unique nor in any way special. As I said earlier, thousands of cults sprang up all across the Imperium, and Lorgar's beliefs were just one of many, just like Fatidicus'. The difference would be that the worlds affected by Lorgar's teachings were probably scoured during the Heresy, given that they were Traitor Planets.

Or can you point out further specific similarities between Lorgar's idea and the Imperial Creed other than the rather general "Emprah = god"? Because Lorgar certainly doesn't have the exclusive patent on that.

DarthMarko wrote:I'm lucky that SM are still SM...Well maybe not all of them, but majority is still holds " ignore religion list "....

On that note, I'd really like to read more about this Cardinal World located in Ultramar. This is a pretty new piece of fluff I would not have expected.

DarthMarko wrote:So slow death is better than a quick one ?

Of course! A slow death allows the dying to cling to the hope that a miracle may still happen. It also allows countless humans to grow up untouched by the horrors of Chaos, even if their lives are still (mostly) miserable.

Psienesis wrote:Anything after? Probably not. Why? Because the people these Chapters are recruiting from are Imperial Citizens. No matter what world you live on, whether that's Necromunda, Cadia, Catachan, Seti-Alpha 5, Pry 52 or some unnamed Feral World hell-hole, the Ecclesiarchy has been there, and preaches the divinity of the God-Emperor of Mankind, whether that worship takes the form of Space-Catholicism, pagan veneration of the Sky-Father, or some other practice, it's all the same Imperial Creed.
They're not going to spend their time inducting someone into the Space Marines and then tell them "you know, about that whole divinity thing? Yeah, it's not true...". Bad for morale, undermines the hypnoindoctrination, and doesn't really matter.

This is a pretty interesting detail. I hadn't considered this before.

Now, Space Marine fiefs are traditionally exempt from Ministorum control, so at places where the Ecclesiarchy did not preach before, the Marines could say "keep yer grubby hands off" (and a lot will probably do this) - but all those Fleet-based Chapters would indeed recruit aspirants who have grown up in an environment whose native faith has been manipulated by the Missionarius Galaxia and the Orders Sabine. In most cases, this is probably somewhat alleviated by the local religion being very basic and primitive due to most recruitment supposedly happening on Feral Worlds - but the Imperial Fists and their recruitment on Necromunda give a good example to the exceptions.

Technically, it should affect the recruiting Chapters just as much as local culture on Feral worlds can turn a Chapter to cannibalism etc.

While it is implied that the Space Marine Homeworlds are "off limits" to certain other aspects of the Imperium, I would think that someplace like Ultramar, with its billions of residents, has an Ecclesiarchal presence. I would find it ludicrious to believe that it's a planet of agnostics or atheists, or that they're permitted to worship the Ultramarines as gods.

And I think this would hold true of *most* other Imperial Worlds, regardless of whether or not they are the homeworld of a Space Marine Chapter or not. There's a thousand Chapters floating around out there and, sure, some of them are fleet-based, but that is in the very far minority of Chapters.

And, as we've seen in DoW, the homeworld of the Blood Ravens was littered with Imperial Shrines and Ecclesiarchal relics. There's no way the people being accepted into that Chapter did not believe in the divinity of the God-Emperor, the planet was practically a Shrine World with that many temples sitting around.

Now that I think about it, the number of First Founding Chapters that are adherents to the Imperial Creed is probably more than I originally expected. I mean, hell, the Imperial Fists claim *Terra* as their Homeworld. There's *definitely* an Ecclesiarchal presence there... and, of course, the God-Emperor Himself. This probably extends to any Successor Chapter as well, as their core values and practices will be handed down by the IF veterans who formed their leadership.

Also, the IF use the "Him on Earth" as part of their battlecry, which is also used by the Ecclesiarchy.

I just don't see the Ecclesiarchy being OK with letting the potentially-billions of Imperial Citizens live on worlds where they do not have a hand in their spiritual well-being, especially in an era of the post-Heresy. I would think the High Lords would be *very* keen on keeping the potential recruits of a Space Marine Chapter "in the flock", to potentially head off instances of heresy.

^ I completely disagree with you...I'm fairly certain that majority of chapters just close one eye to ecclesiarchy...This doesn't make them worshipers...

Also, every chapter has their OWN rites of indoctrination which pretty much resets them to their tradition....

and using a DoW as canon is weak, dude...No offense....

This actually begs to question.. Well how does that work in connection to the 40k fluff that seems to claim that a majority (or so I have seemingly come to believe) view the Emperor as only the greatest man. Would perhaps the degree of indoctrination rip out this aspect or some of the brain modifiers edit these aspects?

In terms of DoW. It's about as weak as the crummy SW book AoB. Also I'd argue it is better in terms of fluffiness and it has khornate sorcerers

 StarTrotter wrote:


In terms of DoW. It's about as weak as the crummy SW book AoB. Also I'd argue it is better in terms of fluffiness and it has khornate sorcerers

You have me there...

Psienesis wrote:While it is implied that the Space Marine Homeworlds are "off limits" to certain other aspects of the Imperium, I would think that someplace like Ultramar, with its billions of residents, has an Ecclesiarchal presence. I would find it ludicrious to believe that it's a planet of agnostics or atheists, or that they're permitted to worship the Ultramarines as gods.

Well, in the new SM Codex it is said that Ultramar includes a "Cardinal World" - but I would imagine that this is a case of the Ultras being okay with it, perhaps because they have realised that these religious teachings have their value on the population, or perhaps because they don't bother as long as the Ecclesiarchy doesn't interfere with their Chapter's internal business. Could also be an example of the Ultras cooperative spirit, smoothing relationships with other Imperial institutions.

"With the backing of the Adeptus Terra, the growing Ecclesiarchy increased its hold on Imperial citizens until, by the end of the 33rd millennium, there was no open worship in the Imperium save for that condoned by the Adeptus Ministorum. The only exceptions were planets controlled by the Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus, who were begrudgingly allowed to keep their unique traditions. This is still the case in the 41st millennium, although in the long ages since, this has led to some distrust, strife and occasionally even open war between the differing parties."
- 6E Rulebook p.158

 Lynata wrote:

Psienesis wrote:While it is implied that the Space Marine Homeworlds are "off limits" to certain other aspects of the Imperium, I would think that someplace like Ultramar, with its billions of residents, has an Ecclesiarchal presence. I would find it ludicrious to believe that it's a planet of agnostics or atheists, or that they're permitted to worship the Ultramarines as gods.

Well, in the new SM Codex it is said that Ultramar includes a "Cardinal World" - but I would imagine that this is a case of the Ultras being okay with it, perhaps because they have realised that these religious teachings have their value on the population, or perhaps because they don't bother as long as the Ecclesiarchy doesn't interfere with their Chapter's internal business. Could also be an example of the Ultras cooperative spirit, smoothing relationships with other Imperial institutions.

"With the backing of the Adeptus Terra, the growing Ecclesiarchy increased its hold on Imperial citizens until, by the end of the 33rd millennium, there was no open worship in the Imperium save for that condoned by the Adeptus Ministorum. The only exceptions were planets controlled by the Space Marines and the Adeptus Mechanicus, who were begrudgingly allowed to keep their unique traditions. This is still the case in the 41st millennium, although in the long ages since, this has led to some distrust, strife and occasionally even open war between the differing parties."
- 6E Rulebook p.158

Of course it depends on what those traditions are, some of the space marine chapters were culled when it was discovered how they worshipped, or that they didn't have the claught to stop the Inquisitors from declaring Heresy.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Of course it depends on what those traditions are, some of the space marine chapters were culled when it was discovered how they worshipped, or that they didn't have the claught to stop the Inquisitors from declaring Heresy.

Very true, "doctrinal heresy" can quickly bring a Sororitas Purge Squadron to your door, accompanied by a grumpy Inquisitor flashing his/her rosette and some piece of paper saying "pwnd".

Let's just say there is a lot more leeway (in that there is any leeway at all) between "worshipping the Emprah" and "worshipping something else" (or nothing at all) granted to Space Marine worlds than to anyone else, with exception of the Cult Mechanicus.
Also depends on the individual Chapter's history and estimated "value", of course. Some of them are granted more than others.

 Lynata wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Of course it depends on what those traditions are, some of the space marine chapters were culled when it was discovered how they worshipped, or that they didn't have the claught to stop the Inquisitors from declaring Heresy.

Very true, "doctrinal heresy" can quickly bring a Sororitas Purge Squadron to your door, accompanied by a grumpy Inquisitor flashing his/her rosette and some piece of paper saying "pwnd".

Let's just say there is a lot more leeway (in that there is any leeway at all) between "worshipping the Emprah" and "worshipping something else" (or nothing at all) granted to Space Marine worlds than to anyone else, with exception of the Cult Mechanicus.
Also depends on the individual Chapter's history and estimated "value", of course. Some of them are granted more than others.

Very true, such as a First Founding legion such as the Sons of Fenris.

Yup! They've even been named in precisely this connection in the Index Astartes article on Renegade Space Marines, as an example where the Inquisition would have long ago intervened due to the geneseed corruption ... were it a lesser Chapter, with a less proud history.

Still, whilst I think this makes a viable excuse to "overlook" genetic corruption and weird traditions, I think the SW are granted too much leeway by some writers, in particular where novel fluff is involved. Geeking an Inquisitor is pretty much an affront to the entire organisation, regardless of their internal rivalries. They may sabotage and assassinate each other all the time, but when an outsider does that it kind of makes the Inquisition as a group feel less immune and powerful. Something which even potential enemies of that Inquisitor would strive to avoid (as much as they'd giggle about his or her death when nobody looks).

Really IG could be battle brothers with damn near anyone (Except maybe the Nids....they'd probably just be food instead of battle buddies). DE could take them as slaves, Eldar work with however advances their cause, Tau have the auxiliaries, Chaos has the traitor guard, Cron could feasibly ally with IG for specific goals not too mention the possibility of negotiating with a planetary governor to make it happen, and of course the SM/SoB fighting alongside them for the emperor.

I would support this, if only to get inquisitors in my Sororitas list.

"Either call in an Inquisitor, or bring the Imperial Navy to bombard these animals from space, but my Order will not fight alongside the Flesh Tearers again, I swear it. By the Immortal Emperor and everything I hold to be Holy, my Sisters will not risk themselves by allying with savages, regardless of your own wishes"

they eat some ork prisoners . . so what SOB just didnt want to be next on the menu ;-) allies just isnt gonna happen

Prisoners?

But I think the Sisters were somewhat more concerned with the Flesh Tearers also eating the allied human militia whilst they were .. dining.

Marines are warrior monk knights. Making them not religious fanatics loses a huge part of the setting in my opinion.

 Slaanesh-Devotee wrote:
Dark Angels are warrior monk knights. Making them not religious fanatics loses a huge part of the setting in my opinion.

Fixed

Sir Arun wrote:
- Templars and Sisters are fervently devout to the Emperor, and make for battle brothers.

The Catholics and Protestants have historically been the same way about God.

The Templars should be allies of convenience with Sisters and GK. Especially if you're making the Dark Angels AoC to them. Those are just two factions that don't get along too well with anyone.

Some Space Marine players liked to interpret previous fluff like that, but the truth is that this isn't GW's intention and was nothing but wishful thinking.

As per Codex Space Marines fluff, the Black Templars are best buddies with the Sisters and keep brofisting each other after mutual "slay the heathen" tours.