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Post by: raiden
As the title states, which Primarch do you feel is the most "badass" or "hardest" out of the bunch, (all primarchs are considered w/out deamon possession or gifts for this please)
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Post by: Rotary
Angorn i believe because of the gladiator past. But thats just for 1v1 melee. My favorite is actually dorn, but had to vote angorn for this.
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Post by: raiden
this doesnt have to be limited to 1v1 combat prowess, can be just, in general, which primarch is the best of them :3
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Post by: Very Superstitious
Gotta go with The Lion.
Had the second most successful legion and he knocked Leman Russ out.
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Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
The lion is a normal primarch and he's winning?!
WTF MAN!!!
That's just wrong. If your answer is not Sanguinius, Angron, or Magnus you need to read more.
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Post by: Very Superstitious
 TheSaintofKilllers wrote:The lion is a normal primarch and he's winning?!
WTF MAN!!!
That's just wrong. If your answer is not Sanguinius, Angron, or Magnus you need to read more.
The Lion grew up killing demons on Caliban with his bare hands like it was nothing
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Post by: Wilytank
All around, Horus. Brilliant leader pre-Heresy. Skilled in combat too, he's killed Sanguinius and is said to be one of the only other primarchs to be Angron in a duel. And mortally wounded the Emperor himself.
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Post by: Sorcererbob
Hold on. How is it anyone other than Horus? First found. The emperor's favourite. Named warmaster (first among equals). THEN became even more powerful ala chaos and effectively killed the emperor.
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Post by: raiden
 Wilytank wrote:All around, Horus. Brilliant leader pre-Heresy. Skilled in combat too, he's killed Sanguinius and is said to be one of the only other primarchs to be Angron in a duel. And mortally wounded the Emperor himself.
that was not horus, that was horuses body, possessed by all 4 dark gods 
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Post by: Very Superstitious
Horus was weak and super gullible though. He didn't have the mental fortitude to resist the temptations of Chaos.
Horus is without a doubt the most important primarch, but definitely not the most badass
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Post by: Wilytank
Let the record show that the thread title says "powerful", but the poll says "badass". These two terms are not mutually inclusive.
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Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
Sorcererbob wrote:Hold on. How is it anyone other than Horus? First found. The emperor's favourite. Named warmaster (first among equals). THEN became even more powerful ala chaos and effectively killed the emperor.
He was skilled as Angron, and thus more than the other primarchs, but he had nowhere near the raw strength or durability.
Magnus would of just popped him like a zit with a psychic kamehameha .
Horus was the most balanced and well rounded, nothing more.
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Post by: Wilytank
Then how come he couldn't do that to Leman Russ?
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
He was skilled as Angron, and thus more than the other primarchs, but he had nowhere near the raw strength or durability.
He was a lot less headstrong though. A more tactical approach to battle is much better than simple minded brute strength.
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Post by: Rotary
Ahh if thats the case rogal dorn would get my vote.
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Post by: Very Superstitious
Wilytank wrote:Let the record show that the thread title says "powerful", but the poll says "badass". These two terms are not mutually inclusive.
I'm viewing powerful being used in a purely martial context. Horus was incredibly skilled, but not the one with the most martial prowess.
If we are talking about power as in political power and effect, Horus is the clear winner. He had incredible charisma and the loyalty of his troops was beyond compare.
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Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
Wilytank wrote:
Then how come he couldn't do that to Leman Russ?
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
He was skilled as Angron, and thus more than the other primarchs, but he had nowhere near the raw strength or durability.
He was a lot less headstrong though. A more tactical approach to battle is much better than simple minded brute strength.
Russ' specialty was anti psyker abilities. His armor is covered in anti psyker runes on top of this.
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Post by: Lobokai
Can't be Horus, for all his gifts, he was a moral weakling, easily manipulated and led like a dog on the hunt
Can't be Angron, he could not progress beyond the single dimension that defined him
Can't be Mortarion, inability to see the bigger truth that he was saved from being wasted, and in turn became that which he hated most
Can't be Russ, he is the ultimate errand boy and axe man, but never aspired to more
Can't be Lorgar, that sad piece of filth's only bold move was betrayal. Locking him in as the cross between Loki and Commodos that he is
Can't be Fulgrim, his weakness was so easily turned as for it to be almost laughable in its malleability.
Can't be Vulcan, for all his ability he lacked the drive to succeed that defines all great ones
Can't be Corax, his shame led to failures. An inability to cope with setbacks removes him from play
Can't be Konrad, that damaged psyche could barely handle being, let alone doing
Can't be Peturabo his anger and resentment harnessed him to a sled of bitterness and limited his ability to achieve
Can't be Ferrus, like so many of his siblings, great offences and challenges gave him tunnel vision with fatal consequences
Can't be Magnus, the Adonis to Tzeentch's Artemis
Can't be the Lion whose hubris showed him a paper tiger
Can't be Khan, a noble loaner who could not aspire to challenges outside the Great Hunt
Can't be Alpharius Omegon who reasoned themselves into fruitless betrayals and overreached trying to legitimize their losing horse in the Cabal's stable
I see only Sanguinius: able to stare the end of immortality down and risk it all to save all
Or Dorn, his father's castellan and loyal commander of good in defiance of evil
Or Guilliman, whose accolades, successes and laurels outshine them all... And with the humility to walk away from the seductive siren of power when he had the Imperium as his realm.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
If we're talking literal power, Magnus was at least an order of magnitude more powerful than any other Primarch.
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Post by: UnadoptedPuppy
The Lion for punching Russ in the face.
I wouldn't.
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Post by: -Shrike-
Konrad Curze, for being grim grimdark badass batman in the depths of grim, dark Nostramo.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
Yay, it's this thread again  I like these threads, it gives me a chance to push a button marked 'Russ', not that he wins everytime... If Magnus is the most powerful primarch, then Russ wins as he backbreakered Magnus and *actually* broke his back. Now Magnus appears in books as a big floating eye. And he keeps forgetting he's a super deamon primarch - must've been how hard Russ hit him. So Russ>Magnus. Angron might've beaten Russ up, but that doesn't cound as Russ wasn't trying. He was doing something even braver - Trying to teach Angron new tricks. Russ>Angron Russ even punched the Emperor (the emp was stopping him trying to get to horus) Russ>Emperor (althought the emp did hit him back and knocked Russ out for a week...) The Lion knocked Russ out, but he cheated by hitting Russ when he was laughing....Cos the Lion's stroppy. Russ>Lion The Lion does get points though for karate chopping Nemiel to death. Lion>Nemiel RUSS>Biscuits!
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Post by: Badablack
Magnus was the most powerful of the Primarchs. He could do literally anything. He knew what was up with the Heresy, knew how to stop it, and was able to break through the Emperor's earth defenses and warn him...
...Which was of course all a setup by Chaos that he realized too late. He got curbstomped by Russ because he knew he'd singlehandedly destroyed humanity's daemon defenses, betrayed his father, and ruined everything. He was offering himself and his legion up as penance.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
 PredaKhaine wrote:If Magnus is the most powerful primarch, then Russ wins as he backbreakered Magnus and *actually* broke his back.
If Magnus went into that fight with the right mindset and at full psychic strength the outcome would've been very different. But, alas, the plot demanded Magnus lose.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
Perturabo gets points for smashing Fulgrims face in. With his tiny working titan, which took him ages to build/fix
Lorgar has killed an Avatar, a super thirster and psychically dominated various primarchs after that.
I don't know what Mortarion has done - my 40k fu is weak on this one
Alpharius/Omegon is more of a schemer - I think this discounts him from being considered the best. Although his Legion is awesome.
Curze - four primarchs beaten up by GrimDarkBatman
Ferrus - his power for so long was the ability to charge in raging. Kinda discounts him in my eyes.
Corax beat Lorgar (in weak mode) but knew he'd die if he fought Angron on istvaan.
Vulkan - in vulcan lives, he seems very much like a junior primarch. Then he beats the snot out of Curze, so he goes up a few notches.
No-one knows how good the Khan is - unless his superpower is staying out of books, then I can't really count him as badass.
Angron. Nuff said.
Fulgrim kills two primarchs. Even while being a dandyish fop/snake demon.
Russ>coffee tables
Horus got super powered and beat Sanguinius, then went on to maim the emperor.
The Lion knocked the Russ out and kicked the gak out of Curze in four seconds in the Lion/Curze rematch.
Sanguinius beat a super 'thirster - he's not done a lot yet, I'd like to see him take on another primarch ot two just to see how good he is
Guilliman went up against Angron and Super Lorgar - and came out of it alive. Although he did get molested by Kor Phaeron.
Dorn - I'm not too sure what Dorn's done to claim badass or powerful.
What has Magnus done besides get things wrong?
He broke the demon defences at the palace, he thought he could out think Tzeentch, he broke the emperors decree at nikea, he tried to die nobly against Russ but couldn't bring himself to do that, then to save his marines (who he'd already fethed over by dedicating them to the god of change in order to stop them ...changing) he teleports them all onto a demon planet in the eye of terror.
I'm not sure he could plan ahead enough to beat a teabag. For saying his thing was knowledge, he didn't do much thinking, he just assumed a lot. And when you assume things...
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Post by: PrinceRaven
I said "powerful", not "intelligent".
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Post by: PredaKhaine
fair point 
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Post by: Aftermath.
Horus is the most powerful after he was infused with Chaos. No question about it.
Runner up is Magnus. He took out a titan with psychic powers.
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Post by: Doctadeth
I am going to immediately discount any deamon primarchs. Thats essentially....because they have additional power as well as their norm.
So essentially comparing all the primarchs before the heresy. I would have to say that the Lion is probably my pick of the bunch. His tactical and strategical acumen is second to the big E's, he is pretty badass as well, taking out demons like nothing and killing a lord of change that was killing his best friend on crusade.
Second would have to be.....Fulgrim. He is a dandified fop with a machoistic streak.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
Aftermath. wrote:Horus is the most powerful after he was infused with Chaos. No question about it.
Runner up is Magnus. He took out a titan with psychic powers.
And Russ took Magnus out so we come full circle again
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Post by: Looky Likey
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Sorcererbob wrote:Hold on. How is it anyone other than Horus? First found. The emperor's favourite. Named warmaster (first among equals). THEN became even more powerful ala chaos and effectively killed the emperor.
He was skilled as Angron, and thus more than the other primarchs, but he had nowhere near the raw strength or durability.
Magnus would of just popped him like a zit with a psychic kamehameha .
Horus was the most balanced and well rounded, nothing more.
Yup, Horus was the most well rounded, in the top two or three for most areas not the best at any one particular thing.
The Lion held himself back far too often, but he wasn't the only one to do this, doesn't help that he comes across as a bit of a numpty in the HH books.
Roubute never gets enough credit due to UM hate, while the others had conquered their home planet Roubute had conquered an entire system. Roubute is probably the most balanced out of all Primarchs after Horus.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
The books have established that Leman Russ at his best can beat Magnus near his worst, we have no idea if any of the other Primarchs were capable of beating Magnus in a fair fight, with both well-rested, focussed, and Magnus not having just destroyed nearly half an army with mind bullets.
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Post by: da001
Wow, fist time ever I see this thread...
I like the answer by Aaron Dembski-Bowden: they are all at a similar level, they just have good and bad days.
If I am to pick one, Horus is stated many times to be "better" than his brothers.
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Post by: DarthOvious
Wilytank wrote:All around, Horus. Brilliant leader pre-Heresy. Skilled in combat too, he's killed Sanguinius and is said to be one of the only other primarchs to be Angron in a duel. And mortally wounded the Emperor himself.
He had a big advantage against Sanguinius though. Sanguinius had been fighting quite heavily beforehand and Horus had all the powers of the warp to use. Automatically Appended Next Post:  da001 wrote:Wow, fist time ever I see this thread...
I like the answer by Aaron Dembski-Bowden: they are all at a similar level, they just have good and bad days.
If I am to pick one, Horus is stated many times to be "better" than his brothers.
True, but in Fear to Tread its made clear that Sanguinius is the other Primarch he is worried about in terms of who could be better than him. When the Chaos powers want to try and turn Sanguinius to the other side Horus basically says no and that he wants him killed instead. It distinctly says that Horus is worried that Sanguinius could end up replacing him as favoured son of Choas if he was to be turned.
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Post by: Blackhair Duckshape
I'm just going to say Angron because the only 40k book I've read so far is Betrayer.
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Post by: da001
 DarthOvious wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
da001 wrote:Wow, fist time ever I see this thread...
I like the answer by Aaron Dembski-Bowden: they are all at a similar level, they just have good and bad days.
If I am to pick one, Horus is stated many times to be "better" than his brothers.
True, but in Fear to Tread its made clear that Sanguinius is the other Primarch he is worried about in terms of who could be better than him. When the Chaos powers want to try and turn Sanguinius to the other side Horus basically says no and that he wants him killed instead. It distinctly says that Horus is worried that Sanguinius could end up replacing him as favoured son of Choas if he was to be turned.
True.
So it is Horus > Sanguinius > anyone else? With Sanguinius being so close it is almost a draw?
Also, at some point Horus says that Sanguinius should have been the Warmaster. He thinks himself inferior to the Angel.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
Russ>Cheesecake.
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Post by: da001
@raiden
I don´t want to be pedantic here but... could you please fix the names of the primarchs?
Roubute Guillium -> Roboute Guilliman
Sangiunius -> Sanguinius
Angorn -> Angron
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Post by: PredaKhaine
Looky Likey wrote:
The Lion held himself back far too often, but he wasn't the only one to do this, doesn't help that he comes across as a bit of a numpty in the HH books.
A bit of a numpty? He seems entirely devoid of empathy and kills his men for disagreeing with him. He also manages to give Perturabo the biggest guns anyone has ever heard of, just after he beat the sons of horus.
Is there any primarch who just comes across as awesomsauce anymore?
(not that I'm complaining - I like it that way)
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Post by: DarthOvious
da001 wrote:True.
So it is Horus > Sanguinius > anyone else? With Sanguinius being so close it is almost a draw?
Also, at some point Horus says that Sanguinius should have been the Warmaster. He thinks himself inferior to the Angel.
Context isn't made clear in what way he considered himself inferior though. It could be anything including that perhaps he just thought that Sanguinius was a better leader or more well liked with the other Primarchs. Sanguinius is the one Primarch who was mostly liked by the others. Ironically he was the Primarch made to keep all the other Primarchs together but alas he failed in that task. However it doesn't help very much when the Primarchs don't get to see each other very much.
I agree very much with the idea that all the Primarchs are supposedly on equal footing, each bringing something important of their own to the fray. This all down to the fact that when the Emperor made the Primarchs he divded his own DNA into 20 different distinct genomes and then used them to create the Primarchs, each bearing different characteristics of the Emperor. So I see this as cannon to suggest that they were all important in some fashion. Maybe with the exception of Curze because he is considered to be a failure due to the suggestion that he is insane.
I voted Sanguinius myself but then I am a Blood Angels player and I like his character very much. Automatically Appended Next Post:
Russ > Bacon
Hope I'm not being too heretical there. Automatically Appended Next Post: PredaKhaine wrote:Looky Likey wrote:
The Lion held himself back far too often, but he wasn't the only one to do this, doesn't help that he comes across as a bit of a numpty in the HH books.
A bit of a numpty? He seems entirely devoid of empathy and kills his men for disagreeing with him. He also manages to give Perturabo the biggest guns anyone has ever heard of, just after he beat the sons of horus.
Is there any primarch who just comes across as awesomsauce anymore?
(not that I'm complaining - I like it that way)
Sanguinius does have the gentic flaw but then again he fights it all the way to his grave.
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Post by: da001
DarthOvious wrote:
I agree very much with the idea that all the Primarchs are supposedly on equal footing, each bringing something important of their own to the fray. This all down to the fact that when the Emperor made the Primarchs he divded his own DNA into 20 different distinct genomes and then used them to create the Primarchs, each bearing different characteristics of the Emperor. So I see this as cannon to suggest that they were all important in some fashion. Maybe with the exception of Curze because he is considered to be a failure due to the suggestion that he is insane.
I would add Angron (turned wrong by the Butcher´s Nails) and perhaps primarchs II and XI. Or perhaps the Emperor foresaw the Heresy and everything was going according to his plans (I like this option).
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Post by: DarthOvious
da001 wrote: DarthOvious wrote:
I agree very much with the idea that all the Primarchs are supposedly on equal footing, each bringing something important of their own to the fray. This all down to the fact that when the Emperor made the Primarchs he divded his own DNA into 20 different distinct genomes and then used them to create the Primarchs, each bearing different characteristics of the Emperor. So I see this as cannon to suggest that they were all important in some fashion. Maybe with the exception of Curze because he is considered to be a failure due to the suggestion that he is insane.
I would add Angron (turned wrong by the Butcher´s Nails) and perhaps primarchs II and XI. Or perhaps the Emperor foresaw the Heresy and everything was going according to his plans (I like this option).
Although Curze is a failure I still consider him pretty awesome because he is evil batman.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
DarthOvious wrote: da001 wrote: DarthOvious wrote:
I agree very much with the idea that all the Primarchs are supposedly on equal footing, each bringing something important of their own to the fray. This all down to the fact that when the Emperor made the Primarchs he divded his own DNA into 20 different distinct genomes and then used them to create the Primarchs, each bearing different characteristics of the Emperor. So I see this as cannon to suggest that they were all important in some fashion. Maybe with the exception of Curze because he is considered to be a failure due to the suggestion that he is insane.
I would add Angron (turned wrong by the Butcher´s Nails) and perhaps primarchs II and XI. Or perhaps the Emperor foresaw the Heresy and everything was going according to his plans (I like this option).
Although Curze is a failure I still consider him pretty awesome because he is evil batman.
I think Curze's problems were environmental - if he'd landed on Macragge, I think he'd have come out a little differently
I love the contradiction of Curze - he hates himself and he hates the emperor and he isn't sure which he hates most.
Its why he tries to goad Vulkan into killing him. He knows he doesn't die yet so he can act with impunity - while at the same time, he doesn't give a gak if he does have it wrong and Vulkan kills him.
It all comes down to whether you think the emp meant him to be like that - AFAIK, he's the only primarch to conquer a world without firing a shot
PS
Russ>Superman riding a T-rex
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Post by: Looky Likey
PredaKhaine wrote:
A bit of a numpty? He seems entirely devoid of empathy and kills his men for disagreeing with him. He also manages to give Perturabo the biggest guns anyone has ever heard of, just after he beat the sons of horus.
Is there any primarch who just comes across as awesomsauce anymore?
(not that I'm complaining - I like it that way)
I really don't like the way a number of them are portrayed, they are meant to be so much more than normal marines who are so much more than normal humans, they shouldn't be showing the Primarch's thought processes as it should be alien to us but instead they are shown as fallible.
PredaKhaine wrote: DarthOvious wrote: da001 wrote: DarthOvious wrote:
I agree very much with the idea that all the Primarchs are supposedly on equal footing, each bringing something important of their own to the fray. This all down to the fact that when the Emperor made the Primarchs he divded his own DNA into 20 different distinct genomes and then used them to create the Primarchs, each bearing different characteristics of the Emperor. So I see this as cannon to suggest that they were all important in some fashion. Maybe with the exception of Curze because he is considered to be a failure due to the suggestion that he is insane.
I would add Angron (turned wrong by the Butcher´s Nails) and perhaps primarchs II and XI. Or perhaps the Emperor foresaw the Heresy and everything was going according to his plans (I like this option).
Although Curze is a failure I still consider him pretty awesome because he is evil batman.
I think Curze's problems were environmental - if he'd landed on Macragge, I think he'd have come out a little differently
I love the contradiction of Curze - he hates himself and he hates the emperor and he isn't sure which he hates most.
Its why he tries to goad Vulkan into killing him. He knows he doesn't die yet so he can act with impunity - while at the same time, he doesn't give a gak if he does have it wrong and Vulkan kills him.
It all comes down to whether you think the emp meant him to be like that - AFAIK, he's the only primarch to conquer a world without firing a shot
PS
Russ>Superman riding a T-rex
I think Curze knowing how he was going to die was also played a big part in his approach to life, if you knew how you'd die and die in a ignominious way then wouldn't that affect how you act?
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Post by: Verses
The new book seems to be saying that Curze and his Legion were intended to be retribution and punishment deliverers, used to make an example. They sort of went a bit too far though, and at the same time as enjoying it, Curze hated himself and his sons for it all, at the same time as a lot of his sons hated him whilst others retained the typical fanatical loyalty. Makes you wonder what would have actually happened if he had landed on another world...Although his visions would not have helped him on any world - again though, on Nostramo in particular, a world where he would have constantly been seeing both physically and through his visions atrocity after atrocity carried out on humans, by each other...Well, it's not hard to assume that 1) he took it as a default way to deal with problems and 2)it messed him up a bit.
On the topic of this thread, if we're not going for strictly straight 1v1 fights - I'd give it to either Magnus, who I would think could blast someone out of existence before they even see him coming, or one of the more underhanded Primarchs - one of the ones who doesn't give a damn about the whole dueling honour thing and would happily rig circumstances to be in their favour.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Sanguinius is bad ass with a modified DNA for rage and fearlessness.
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Post by: Tamwulf
Horus as he killed how many other Primarchs? And he mortally wounded/killed the Emperor before falling himself.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
Horus killed Sanguinius. When beefed up to the eyeballs. And Sangy was knackered from slapping bloodthirsters and keeper of secrets down. The emperor was holding back when he fought Horus so it doesn't count for as much - ol empy had to wait until he was sure Horus was too far gone before he psy blasted him out of existence utterly. Fulgrim killed Guilliman (technically) and Ferrus Manus Curze has beaten up four primarchs so far. Guilliman killed Alpharius. But it might have been Omegon. Or just another legionary (damn you GW retcons!) So who's the most powerful primarch by that? (Still not Curze though ...) Russ>T-rex riding superman.
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Post by: DarthOvious
PredaKhaine wrote:I think Curze's problems were environmental - if he'd landed on Macragge, I think he'd have come out a little differently
Perhaps. Its just a suggestion that is made about Curze that he was insane and that there was something wrong with his geneseed. Its not actually established fact. So there is room fro Curze just being handed a tough life and he wasn't strong enough to deal with it. He did have to raise himself on his own without a family to look after, the same way the Lion did. He also shows considerable resentment to those that were raised with families, this is also shown in Umremebered Empire as well in a particular scene.
I love the contradiction of Curze - he hates himself and he hates the emperor and he isn't sure which he hates most.
Its why he tries to goad Vulkan into killing him. He knows he doesn't die yet so he can act with impunity - while at the same time, he doesn't give a gak if he does have it wrong and Vulkan kills him.
Thats why the suggestion is made inr egards to his sanity. It is considered by some that The Night Haunter is a split personality from Curze in a sense.
It all comes down to whether you think the emp meant him to be like that - AFAIK, he's the only primarch to conquer a world without firing a shot
True, but he conqured it using fear techniques and sliting the throats of statesmen and hanging them upside down. Although he did this with a consideration of thinking them to be immoral. Part of his own self loathing stems from the fact that he thinks he has turned out the same as those he previously hunted.
PS
Russ>Superman riding a T-rex
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Post by: Looky Likey
Technically, at least to the HH books, a daemon possessing Fulgrim killed Manus. We need to get to the final Fulgrim vs. Guilliman battle in HH to see if its Fulgrim or the Daemon in charge at that point in that version of the fluff.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
I'll put 50p on it being Fulgrim in charge - he's a big snake demon in the heresy now, and he's given the demon sword away to Lucius IIRC.
Russ>bears riding sharks with machine guns
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Post by: the shrouded lord
 Very Superstitious wrote: TheSaintofKilllers wrote:The lion is a normal primarch and he's winning?!
WTF MAN!!!
That's just wrong. If your answer is not Sanguinius, Angron, or Magnus you need to read more.
The Lion grew up killing demons on Caliban with his bare hands like it was nothing
1. They were beasts, not Demons
2. He HELPED a butt load of knights do it, one person can't kill a planet of monsters
Ok, back on topic, I have 3 favorites, 2 now chaos and 1 loyalist
1. Fulgrim, because he is literally imprisoned in his brain juices. (pre tenticles)
2. Horus, for his hair. (pre heresy)
1. VULKAN cause I'm slightly pyromaniac
Also, just checked the wiki, DORN IS DEAD?!?!
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Post by: PredaKhaine
 the shrouded lord wrote: Very Superstitious wrote: TheSaintofKilllers wrote:The lion is a normal primarch and he's winning?! WTF MAN!!! That's just wrong. If your answer is not Sanguinius, Angron, or Magnus you need to read more.
The Lion grew up killing demons on Caliban with his bare hands like it was nothing
1. They were beasts, not Demons 2. He HELPED a butt load of knights do it, one person can't kill a planet of monsters Ok, back on topic, I have 3 favorites, 2 now chaos and 1 loyalist 1. Fulgrim, because he is literally imprisoned in his brain juices. (pre tenticles) 2. Horus, for his hair. (pre heresy) 1. VULKAN cause I'm slightly pyromaniac Also, just checked the wiki, DORN IS DEAD?!?!
1)they were beasts, heavily corrupted by chaos to be much more powerful than they were originally. Kinda demon beasts. 2)The Order wasn't the biggest order of knights when he started iirc - but they did have Luther so they may have been able to do it anyway so you could well have a point 1)Fulgrim is released from his own brain and making up for lost time. As a snake demon thing 2)Have you got a pic of Horus's do? And yeah - Dorn dies after the heresy in a boarding action against a chaos ship. Although thats got a little murkier now with people saying they've only found his hand. I don't know where that came from.
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Post by: Wilytank
PredaKhaine wrote:
1)they were beasts, heavily corrupted by chaos to be much more powerful than they were originally. Kinda demon beasts.
Mutated beasts and actual "daemon beasts" are two separate things.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
They were mutated, using the power of chaos (same as demons) and they had a 'malign intelligence' (same as deamons) ( iirc, there are parts of those books where the protagonists were 'staring into the beasts eye or some such) and they killed because they enjoyed it (same as deamons) - but not quite as they had mortal origins and not warp origins. Thats why I said 'kinda'
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Post by: raiden
PredaKhaine wrote: the shrouded lord wrote: Very Superstitious wrote: TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
And yeah - Dorn dies after the heresy in a boarding action against a chaos ship. Although thats got a little murkier now with people saying they've only found his hand. I don't know where that came from.
\
Its because they found an escape pod w/ Dorns gear, they "found" a skeletal remain, but are unsure if it is Dorn or not.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
 raiden wrote: Its because they found an escape pod w/ Dorns gear, they "found" a skeletal remain, but are unsure if it is Dorn or not.
Do you know which book that was in? I've definitely not read that one
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Post by: the shrouded lord
PredaKhaine wrote: the shrouded lord wrote: Very Superstitious wrote: TheSaintofKilllers wrote:The lion is a normal primarch and he's winning?!
WTF MAN!!!
That's just wrong. If your answer is not Sanguinius, Angron, or Magnus you need to read more.
The Lion grew up killing demons on Caliban with his bare hands like it was nothing
1. They were beasts, not Demons
2. He HELPED a butt load of knights do it, one person can't kill a planet of monsters
Ok, back on topic, I have 3 favorites, 2 now chaos and 1 loyalist
1. Fulgrim, because he is literally imprisoned in his brain juices. (pre tenticles)
2. Horus, for his hair. (pre heresy)
1. VULKAN cause I'm slightly pyromaniac
Also, just checked the wiki, DORN IS DEAD?!?!
1)they were beasts, heavily corrupted by chaos to be much more powerful than they were originally. Kinda demon beasts.
2)The Order wasn't the biggest order of knights when he started iirc - but they did have Luther so they may have been able to do it anyway so you could well have a point
1)Fulgrim is released from his own brain and making up for lost time. As a snake demon thing
2)Have you got a pic of Horus's do?
And yeah - Dorn dies after the heresy in a boarding action against a chaos ship. Although thats got a little murkier now with people saying they've only found his hand. I don't know where that came from.
Dulgrims off the list. And I feel stupid...
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Post by: DarthOvious
Looky Likey wrote:Technically, at least to the HH books, a daemon possessing Fulgrim killed Manus. We need to get to the final Fulgrim vs. Guilliman battle in HH to see if its Fulgrim or the Daemon in charge at that point in that version of the fluff.
This has pretty much been answered has it not? I thought there was a short story detailing that Fulgrim regained control of his body or is it still looking a bit suspicious?
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Post by: PredaKhaine
Reflection Crack'd showed that Fulgrim is actually just a massive perv - but that was after the death of Ferrus.
IIRC - Fulgrim went to fight Ferus and the demon blade gave him the final push to kill Ferrus.
Fulgrim was having an 'ermagerd, whatma doin?' moment and the sword decided for him.
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Post by: raiden
fulgrim is possessed by a daemon, the real fulgrim is fighting a losing battle to regain control...
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Post by: da001
Nonsense! Bacon >> anything!
PredaKhaine wrote: raiden wrote:
Its because they found an escape pod w/ Dorns gear, they "found" a skeletal remain, but are unsure if it is Dorn or not.
Do you know which book that was in?
I've definitely not read that one
They keep changing it.
I think it is Space Marine (1996) where they found the full body. But it eventually got retconned to two arms. And in the last codex is "When the Imperial Fists defeated the Chaos fleet, the only trace of their Primarch uncovered by their subsequent searching was a single fist."
Disclaimer: it is an old book. Space marines eat people, there are Slann and Chaos Squats, and some weird stuff going on in the IF chapter. I liked it a lot, though.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
raiden wrote:fulgrim is possessed by a daemon, the real fulgrim is fighting a losing battle to regain control...
He sorted the demon out in Reflection Crack'd in the book 'The Primarchs'. Fulgrim is Fulgrim again. The demon got put in the poo painting. A lot of people complained at the time as they said it detracted from his story. And he's still a massive perv. Automatically Appended Next Post: da001 wrote: Nonsense! Bacon >> anything! PredaKhaine wrote: raiden wrote: Its because they found an escape pod w/ Dorns gear, they "found" a skeletal remain, but are unsure if it is Dorn or not.
Do you know which book that was in? I've definitely not read that one
They keep changing it. I think it is Space Marine (1996) where they found the full body. But it eventually got retconned to two arms. And in the last codex is "When the Imperial Fists defeated the Chaos fleet, the only trace of their Primarch uncovered by their subsequent searching was a single fist." Disclaimer: it is an old book. Space marines eat people, there are Slann and Chaos Squats, and some weird stuff going on in the IF chapter. I liked it a lot, though.
Thanks - I've been wondering and I'd seen people say it was just the wiki's that were wrong and Dorn was dead, so it's nice to have confirmation PS Russ>Bacon²
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Post by: DarthOvious
raiden wrote:fulgrim is possessed by a daemon, the real fulgrim is fighting a losing battle to regain control...
I thought that he already had gained control of his body back but he had to pretty much sell himself to Choas in order to do it. Automatically Appended Next Post:
They keep changing it.
I think it is Space Marine (1996) where they found the full body. But it eventually got retconned to two arms. And in the last codex is "When the Imperial Fists defeated the Chaos fleet, the only trace of their Primarch uncovered by their subsequent searching was a single fist."
Disclaimer: it is an old book. Space marines eat people, there are Slann and Chaos Squats, and some weird stuff going on in the IF chapter. I liked it a lot, though.
I think there doing all this to prepare a future where all the Primarchs come back in some fashion. Heck, even Sanguinius is not just simply dead anymore. His body is buried at Baal but his spirit potentially lives on in the Sanguinor. How come I have a feeling we will have some Voodoo ritual that will put Sanguinius back in his body.
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Post by: jitactical
I have to go with Fulgrim. He beat a Wraithlord's face in with his fist, popped Ulthwe's Avatar like a zit, and kicked Ferrus Mannus' iron ass. Although, I'm just getting started on the Horus Heresy books so my knowledge is limited.
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Post by: tomball0706
jitactical wrote:I have to go with Fulgrim. He beat a Wraithlord's face in with his fist, popped Ulthwe's Avatar like a zit, and kicked Ferrus Mannus' iron ass. Although, I'm just getting started on the Horus Heresy books so my knowledge is limited.
did some one recently finish reading Fulgrim by any chance 
if we were going upon martial prowess alone, I would have to say Angron, sure he might be a berserk raging lunatic, but you can't say he wasn't a damn good killer plus he had martial honor .
Back to Fulgrim for second though, everyone seems to be forgetting that he was an amazing swordsman, this was before he knowingly became slaanesh's boy toy, as he was obsessed with becoming perfect in every way shape or form.
Then there is Magnus, this guy I just feel sorry for, everything he ever did was for the good of his legion/the emperor/ the universe, just he kept getting screwed over by Tzeentch at most corners. This is what lead to him being beaten by Russ, he was just super upset and moping. But he did then take to the battlefield and was destroying the wolves with mind bullets and flicks of hi fingers. When he got to the fight with Russ sure he had his back broken and lost in the end, but he did also punch Russ that hard in the chest he shattered his chest plate and punctured one of his hearts, a feat that no other primarch can match, well, not without cheating anyway. Plus Russ cheated and kicked Magnus in his eye, hell not even loyal slightly less berserk Angron would stoop to that level.
Corax I get impressed by, he went into a rage on the fields of Istavan which was is comparable to that of a slightly annoyed Angron (not much, but still damn angry) and was slicing through the Garl Vorbak with his lightning claws like a hot knife through butter. Lorgar saw this and charged in knowing he was going to die (gotta give Lorgar that) and Corax fought to kill him, impaling his claws into Lorgar and hoisting him off the ground, not even flinching to the multitude of headbutts he was reviving and as he was about to decapitate him, good old Curze intervened and stopped it (even though he admitted he would let him die next time which always has confused me, but then again batman has always been a bit of a weird primarch)
I feel like I should stop as I could frankly go one for hours on this topic
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Post by: da001
DarthOvious wrote:
They keep changing it.
I think it is Space Marine (1996) where they found the full body. But it eventually got retconned to two arms. And in the last codex is "When the Imperial Fists defeated the Chaos fleet, the only trace of their Primarch uncovered by their subsequent searching was a single fist."
Disclaimer: it is an old book. Space marines eat people, there are Slann and Chaos Squats, and some weird stuff going on in the IF chapter. I liked it a lot, though.
I think there doing all this to prepare a future where all the Primarchs come back in some fashion. Heck, even Sanguinius is not just simply dead anymore. His body is buried at Baal but his spirit potentially lives on in the Sanguinor. How come I have a feeling we will have some Voodoo ritual that will put Sanguinius back in his body.
I am scared of this. I don´t like it when most of the characters keep resurrecting after a noble death, as it happens in some franchises. It sounds fun for a while, but it easily turns silly and ruins the entire background.
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Post by: raiden
It could work for the primarchs though.
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Post by: Orblivion
Nah, I'm with da001 on this one. Sanguinius serves the story better in death. However I don't have a problem with Sanguinius' soul living on in the warp. It makes sense to me that even if Sanguinius himself wasn't powerful enough for his soul to be maintained in the warp that the Emperor would be powerful enough to protect Sanguinius' soul.
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Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
PredaKhaine wrote:Aftermath. wrote:Horus is the most powerful after he was infused with Chaos. No question about it.
Runner up is Magnus. He took out a titan with psychic powers.
And Russ took Magnus out so we come full circle again
No, Russ' specialty was anti psyker, and he still only won because he got lucky.
So Magnus is again the most powerful by a degree of magnitude.
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Post by: zinogre
MOST BADASS MOTHER****** HAS TO BE CURZE HE BEAT THE SH*T OUT OF DORN
TURNED AN ENTIRE CRIMINAL PLANET TO LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AND FORESAW HIS OWN DEATH MEANING HE WAS INVINCIBLE UNTIL THAT POINT.  NOW HE IS DEAD (UNFORTUNATELY  )
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Post by: PredaKhaine
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: PredaKhaine wrote:Aftermath. wrote:Horus is the most powerful after he was infused with Chaos. No question about it.
Runner up is Magnus. He took out a titan with psychic powers.
And Russ took Magnus out so we come full circle again
No, Russ' specialty was anti psyker, and he still only won because he got lucky.
So Magnus is again the most powerful by a degree of magnitude.
Apart from one howl on Prospero that I know about, has Russ done anything else anti psyker?
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Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
PredaKhaine wrote: TheSaintofKilllers wrote: PredaKhaine wrote:Aftermath. wrote:Horus is the most powerful after he was infused with Chaos. No question about it.
Runner up is Magnus. He took out a titan with psychic powers.
And Russ took Magnus out so we come full circle again
No, Russ' specialty was anti psyker, and he still only won because he got lucky.
So Magnus is again the most powerful by a degree of magnitude.
Apart from one howl on Prospero that I know about, has Russ done anything else anti psyker?
His armor is etched with anti psyker runes. It only takes 1 example to show anti psychic ability.
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Post by: Deadshot
The only clear answer is Sanguinius-
Beat Ka-Bandha, greatest Bloodthirster of Khorne (according to certsin sources like C:GK, which is not the debate right now)
Saved the Imperium by causing a fracture in Horus' armour
Had Wings, he could fly without any assistance.
Resisted Horus' temptations, even though they were so close. The only other Primarch I remember to have done so is Ferrus Manus, who is dead.
Was the only one Warmaster Horus saw as his equal or superior. Horus said that Sanguinius should have been Warmaster.
He forswar his own death, and went ahead anyway. He gave his life for the Imperium, for humanity and for the Emperor. Vulkan and his Salamanders may be the most "humane" and relatable due to their closeness with their human neighbours, but Sanguinius saved the whole human race.
Close second would be Horus, as he was actually Warmaster, but recognised Sanguinius as equal or superior to himself.
He killed the Emperor.
He almost killed the Emperor (and in some people's opinion, the Emperor is dead anyway).
Ullanor.
Final Battle.
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Post by: Lobokai
 zinogre wrote:MOST BADASS MOTHER****** HAS TO BE CURZE HE BEAT THE SH*T OUT OF DORN
TURNED AN ENTIRE CRIMINAL PLANET TO LAW ABIDING CITIZENS AND FORESAW HIS OWN DEATH MEANING HE WAS INVINCIBLE UNTIL THAT POINT. NOW HE IS DEAD (UNFORTUNATELY )
Wait, he punk shot Dorn? So if Dorn had walked up and shot Konrad, he'd be cool?
Those citizens DIDN'T become law abiding, they all reverted the second he left. He sulked until his death (wow, cool). His own sons didn't even like him. Are the Night Lords pretty bad, yeah. Is their crybaby emo brat of a primarch... no, not really.
PS: want to have your posts ignored by the majority of the community? Type in all caps.
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Post by: Haight
Also went with The Lion, for the same reason - proverbially knocking Russ "dafuqout".
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Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
 Haight wrote:
Also went with The Lion, for the same reason - proverbially knocking Russ "dafuqout".
They're mid tier.
Simply due to Magnus being a psyker he's technically the most powerful due to having the powers of the warp at his command. This is before we add on the fact that he's Alpha+++....++... psyker.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
I don't think Horus was scared so much of Sanguinius' power, but more the fact that he had the charisma and other leadership skill to potentially replace him as the warmaster/champion of Chaos undivided. Granted, he was still pretty powerful, but I don't think he was at Leman Russ' level.
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Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
 PrinceRaven wrote:I don't think Horus was scared so much of Sanguinius' power, but more the fact that he had the charisma and other leadership skill to potentially replace him as the warmaster/champion of Chaos undivided. Granted, he was still pretty powerful, but I don't think he was at Leman Russ' level.
Russ is upper mid tier.
Lets show the tier based on the HH.
Highest Tier: Magnus, Sangunius, Angron. All of these should be obvious. Magnus is the strongest due to being good at HTH, and being the second strongest psyker to ever live.
Upper Mid Tier: Horus, Russ (simply due to his anti psychic abilities), Vulkan (based on Vulkan lives, spoilers)
Mid Tier: Dorn, Kurze, Manus, Khan, Fulgrim, Johnson, Mortarion
Low Tier: Alpharius and Omegon, Lorgar
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Post by: Niexist
surprise surprise, another thread showing what a crush you guys have on vampires and werewolves. Did you guys just finish watching buffy, or twilight before you picked your army?
Also, since the question is "The most powerful Primarch" and not, "Who WAS the most powerful primarch" Sanguinius doesn't even qualify as bones are not particularly strong.
also to poster above me, How in your convoluted reasoning is Russ upper mid tier, and the Lion is mid-tier when the Lion knocked him out cold?
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Post by: 'Nidsnik Boreork
I think Fulgrim is a pretty cool guy. Eh, kills two primarchs and doesn't afraid of anything.
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Post by: TheSaintofKilllers
Niexist wrote:surprise surprise, another thread showing what a crush you guys have on vampires and werewolves. Did you guys just finish watching buffy, or twilight before you picked your army?
Also, since the question is "The most powerful Primarch" and not, "Who WAS the most powerful primarch" Sanguinius doesn't even qualify as bones are not particularly strong.
also to poster above me, How in your convoluted reasoning is Russ upper mid tier, and the Lion is mid-tier when the Lion knocked him out cold?
I explained my reasoning. Russ has far more utility due to his anti psyker powers. These make him far better than the Lion against daemons, eldar, big nids, pretty much every beat stick other than the C'tan.
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Post by: Niexist
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:Niexist wrote:surprise surprise, another thread showing what a crush you guys have on vampires and werewolves. Did you guys just finish watching buffy, or twilight before you picked your army?
Also, since the question is "The most powerful Primarch" and not, "Who WAS the most powerful primarch" Sanguinius doesn't even qualify as bones are not particularly strong.
also to poster above me, How in your convoluted reasoning is Russ upper mid tier, and the Lion is mid-tier when the Lion knocked him out cold?
I explained my reasoning. Russ has far more utility due to his anti psyker powers. These make him far better than the Lion against daemons, eldar, big nids, pretty much every beat stick other than the C'tan.
He's also a hot-head whose entire batle plan consists of CHAAAAAARRRGE!!! See, you're jumping to whatever suits you. Are we talking about 1v1 battle? Because Russ lost that. Are we talking about strategizing against foes like the eldar, nids etc? The lion wins there as well because he has a strategical mind that puts Russ to shame.
You can put the strongest bodybuilder in the world against a brilliant MMA fighter, and they'll lose everytime. It's like the same dumb arguement of superman vs batman. Yeah superman has strength, but with enough planning time, batman is far more effective against Superman, or any foe for that matter.
Also, don't forget that as far as success in the great crusade, the Lion, and the first legion is only second to Horus.
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Post by: Blackhair Duckshape
Niexist wrote:surprise surprise, another thread showing what a crush you guys have on vampires and werewolves. Did you guys just finish watching buffy, or twilight before you picked your army?
Also, since the question is "The most powerful Primarch" and not, "Who WAS the most powerful primarch" Sanguinius doesn't even qualify as bones are not particularly strong.
Now I'm stuck wondering if 40k has a present.
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Post by: UnadoptedPuppy
He's also a hot-head whose entire batle plan consists of CHAAAAAARRRGE!!! See, you're jumping to whatever suits you. Are we talking about 1v1 battle? Because Russ lost that. Are we talking about strategizing against foes like the eldar, nids etc? The lion wins there as well because he has a strategical mind that puts Russ to shame. .
This.
Plus Russ was nothing more than an errand boy with a temper.
Edit: I completely butchered the quote. My apologies, Niexist.
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Post by: Warp Angels
Nidsnik Boreork wrote:I think Fulgrim is a pretty cool guy. Eh, kills two primarchs and doesn't afraid of anything.
QFT !
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Post by: sing your life
I vote Horus becuase he was almost able to defeat the Emporor.
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Post by: BaconUprising
I voted Horus because he was the most powerful. The most badass I would say is Lorgar post Istvaan V or Angron.
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Post by: silvu
It's got to be Horus for me.
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Post by: Happyjew
How do you define "powerful" or "badass"?
While power is quantifiable and we could theoretically figure out who it's the most powerful, badassitude is not, and is purely subjective.
And to those claiming that Russ' entire battle plan is chaaaarge, just remember, the best defense is a strong offense.
Or is it the other way around?
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Post by: sfshilo
Vulcan is a perpetual..........
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Post by: JesusFreak
I want it to be Russ sooo badly...but it simply as to be Sanguinius ftw.
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Post by: Haight
TheSaintofKilllers wrote: PrinceRaven wrote:I don't think Horus was scared so much of Sanguinius' power, but more the fact that he had the charisma and other leadership skill to potentially replace him as the warmaster/champion of Chaos undivided. Granted, he was still pretty powerful, but I don't think he was at Leman Russ' level.
Russ is upper mid tier.
Lets show the tier based on the HH.
Highest Tier: Magnus, Sangunius, Angron. All of these should be obvious. Magnus is the strongest due to being good at HTH, and being the second strongest psyker to ever live.
Upper Mid Tier: Horus, Russ (simply due to his anti psychic abilities), Vulkan (based on Vulkan lives, spoilers)
Mid Tier: Dorn, Kurze, Manus, Khan, Fulgrim, Johnson, Mortarion
Low Tier: Alpharius and Omegon, Lorgar
All well and good, though nothing in the horus heresy book breaks a chart out like what you describe in so many words, so it can be considered anecdotal, though i will grant you Magnus was a badass. I agree with the poster that said Sanguinius may have been feared by horus due to his total combined powers of charisma, etc., rather than on raw skill alone. Horus comments that Sang should have been warmaster. A warmaster needs to be a tactitician, strategist, and leader every bit as much as he needs the ability to get the job done with bolter and sword.
I was half joking with my anecdote about Johnson knocking out russ. Another reason why i feel he could be a candidate for "most powerful" is he's regularly referred to as a master strategist. As Dorn found out, even a primarch cant' take on an army solo, however the ability to wield armies skillfully makes for a very powerful primarch.
Also, ya know, he's one of few primarchs that we know aren't dead yet. Not that he's truly alive currently, as he's in some sort of stasis mode on The Rock - but that's a step above "Missing, hopefully not dead", and "Most certainly has assumed room temperature".
... in any event, polls like this are basically a bit silly - it's a reason to foment a bit of knowledge and particular preference for a primarch you like.
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Post by: Storm Shadow
vulkan, he's immortal.
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Post by: Lemartes12
Sanguinus is the most badass. The reason why being he KNEW he would die if he fought uber horus. He had the choice to let the emporer fall and take power. But he chose the sacrificial play so that humanity would still have its emporer. Who would have taken up the beacon if the emporer truely died? No one is powerful enough (Cept maybe magnus). So to prevent humanity from slipping into an age of darkness he weakend horus.
And unlike Horus he resisted the temptation of Chaos. Threw it down and broke it. He fought the Darkness within him daily and his legion still does even after his death.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
 Lemartes12 wrote:Who would have taken up the beacon if the emporer truely died? No one is powerful enough (Cept maybe magnus).
It's a good thing the Emperor kept that in mind and didn't completely overreact to Magnus' warning about Horus by sicking an entire Legion on him.
Wait, he did?
Well at least he sent a Legion with some restraint, not a bunch of superstitious, psyker-hating rampaging lunatics.
Oh, he sent the Space Wolves?
Well at least he explicitly told Leman Russ that he was supposed to detain Magnus, not go completely overboard and nuke Prospera from orbit, then go in and obliterate everything he could find still standing, including his brother...
... Right?
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Post by: BaconUprising
Lemartes12 wrote:Sanguinus is the most badass. The reason why being he KNEW he would die if he fought uber horus. He had the choice to let the emporer fall and take power. But he chose the sacrificial play so that humanity would still have its emporer. Who would have taken up the beacon if the emporer truely died? No one is powerful enough (Cept maybe magnus). So to prevent humanity from slipping into an age of darkness he weakend horus.
And unlike Horus he resisted the temptation of Chaos. Threw it down and broke it. He fought the Darkness within him daily and his legion still does even after his death.
Yes! So agree with this! People seem to not realise that if sanguinus had fallen to chaos and become warmaster instead of Horus, if Horus had faced him he would have died. But pre heresy I still think Horus was the most powerful in a straight up 1v1. To all those people saying Leman Russ is top tier, read Betrayer...
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Post by: the shrouded lord
PredaKhaine wrote: the shrouded lord wrote: Very Superstitious wrote: TheSaintofKilllers wrote:The lion is a normal primarch and he's winning?!
WTF MAN!!!
That's just wrong. If your answer is not Sanguinius, Angron, or Magnus you need to read more.
The Lion grew up killing demons on Caliban with his bare hands like it was nothing
1. They were beasts, not Demons
2. He HELPED a butt load of knights do it, one person can't kill a planet of monsters
Ok, back on topic, I have 3 favorites, 2 now chaos and 1 loyalist
1. Fulgrim, because he is literally imprisoned in his brain juices. (pre tenticles)
2. Horus, for his hair. (pre heresy)
1. VULKAN cause I'm slightly pyromaniac
Also, just checked the wiki, DORN IS DEAD?!?!
1)they were beasts, heavily corrupted by chaos to be much more powerful than they were originally. Kinda demon beasts.
2)The Order wasn't the biggest order of knights when he started iirc - but they did have Luther so they may have been able to do it anyway so you could well have a point
1)Fulgrim is released from his own brain and making up for lost time. As a snake demon thing
2)Have you got a pic of Horus's do?
And yeah - Dorn dies after the heresy in a boarding action against a chaos ship. Although thats got a little murkier now with people saying they've only found his hand. I don't know where that came from.
1. FrOm what I've read it'd be like this: http://www.fashionliness.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/cool-hair-styles-for-men-with-long-hair.jpg except a little but longer at the back, and with not-as-gay person underneath.
Also, dorn's death is SO underwhelming
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Post by: BaconUprising
Well they have to kill the pompous old fool someway.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
We've had this one before
Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson. If Russ beat Angron, Angron would've just got up and tried to kill him again. ADB even said that Angron lost and that the reason why he lost is that he doesn't understand that he lost.
Lorgar tried to point out that Angron lost but Angron wasn't having it.
I not saying Russ would win in a straight 1v1, but I don't think that fight was a reason to mark Russ down
ps:for the record, I didn't vote Russ either
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Post by: Deadshot
PrinceRaven wrote: Well at least he explicitly told Leman Russ that he was supposed to detain Magnus, not go completely overboard and nuke Prospera from orbit, then go in and obliterate everything he could find still standing, including his brother... ... Right?
As far as I kmow this was more or less his reaction, but Horus intercepted the message and sent his own saying that the Emperor had said to raze Prospero to the ground.
And the Emperor ordered detainment in the first place because he didn't believe that Horus was traitor. From evidence presented to him, Magnus had explicitly disobeyed him to tell him HORUS, golden boy Horus, his favoured son, Warmaster of the Great Crusade and the Emperor's right hand man, the first Primarch and all that jazz, was going to attack and destroy the Imperium on behalf of the Chaos Gods.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
Oh, Horus intercepted the message? I was under the impression Russ got the message, but Horus basically told him to interpret it as a go ahead for all out war.
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Post by: Deadshot
That may be it. I can't remember exactly but what I do know is that Big E said "arrest and detain" and Horus said "Russ, kill. Good boy."
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Post by: BaconUprising
PredaKhaine wrote:
We've had this one before
Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson. If Russ beat Angron, Angron would've just got up and tried to kill him again. ADB even said that Angron lost and that the reason why he lost is that he doesn't understand that he lost.
Lorgar tried to point out that Angron lost but Angron wasn't having it.
I not saying Russ would win in a straight 1v1, but I don't think that fight was a reason to mark Russ down
ps:for the record, I didn't vote Russ either
Im aware ADB said that Angron lost but I believe he was referring to the battle rather than the 1v1. It is specifically stated on 2 occasions that he won.
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Post by: Wolf Lord Kevin
I'm back Russ. The Lion got a cheap shot in while Russ was laughing. The Lion is awesome in his own right but come on man...WHY A CHEAP SHOT LIKE THAT ON A BROTHER?!
Russ took on Magnus whom is deemed extremely powerful. Sure Magnus was all bent out of shape for realizing he was being stupid but still put up a fight which again...Russ did a Bane and broke someone's back. Also there was that crazy howl of his that wrecked over a lot of Thousand Sons and their big pyramids and stuff.
Held his own against Angron while not trying to kill him. Accomplished the mission given to him and left Angron raging. Also heard one of Angron's axes broke(again) that day sooo ya another point to my man Russ!
Lastly offered the good o'l God Emperor some defeat in the form of eating and drinking then getting into a brawl while drunk. Yes got knocked the hell out via powerfist(Daaaang dad why you gotta use the big fist) but still point is...awesomeness.
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Post by: Wardragoon
I have to say Alpharius/omegon, the only primarch without daemon gifts who is arguably alive and well after ten thousand years of trolling and fighting
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Post by: BaconUprising
In terms of Forge World rules so far I've tested all if the Primarchs. Horus is undoubtedly the best almost entirely due to his talon followed by Angron. The rest I can't fully remember the results.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do seem to have some damn good luck with Lorgar though. I've had him kill everyone except Horus so far.
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Post by: Looky Likey
Lemartes12 wrote:Sanguinus is the most badass. The reason why being he KNEW he would die if he fought uber horus. He had the choice to let the emporer fall and take power. But he chose the sacrificial play so that humanity would still have its emporer. Who would have taken up the beacon if the emporer truely died? No one is powerful enough (Cept maybe magnus). So to prevent humanity from slipping into an age of darkness he weakend horus.
And unlike Horus he resisted the temptation of Chaos. Threw it down and broke it. He fought the Darkness within him daily and his legion still does even after his death.
in one of the me recent HH books the emperor said that Magnus was destined to power the beacon, I think Magnus had a lucky escape.
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Post by: Bulldogging
Magnus without a doubt.
In regards to Russ, he fought an unarmed(well as unarmed as he could be) and broken spirited Magnus. I give that victory to Tzentch.
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Post by: Happyjew
Actually, the most powerful (and badass) Primarch is only remembered by a picture.
In all seriousness though, how are we defining "powerful"?
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Post by: Ugin, the Owl King
 Lobukia wrote:Can't be Horus, for all his gifts, he was a moral weakling, easily manipulated and led like a dog on the hunt
Can't be Angron, he could not progress beyond the single dimension that defined him
Can't be Mortarion, inability to see the bigger truth that he was saved from being wasted, and in turn became that which he hated most
Can't be Russ, he is the ultimate errand boy and axe man, but never aspired to more
Can't be Lorgar, that sad piece of filth's only bold move was betrayal. Locking him in as the cross between Loki and Commodos that he is
Can't be Fulgrim, his weakness was so easily turned as for it to be almost laughable in its malleability.
Can't be Vulcan, for all his ability he lacked the drive to succeed that defines all great ones
Can't be Corax, his shame led to failures. An inability to cope with setbacks removes him from play
Can't be Konrad, that damaged psyche could barely handle being, let alone doing
Can't be Peturabo his anger and resentment harnessed him to a sled of bitterness and limited his ability to achieve
Can't be Ferrus, like so many of his siblings, great offences and challenges gave him tunnel vision with fatal consequences
Can't be Magnus, the Adonis to Tzeentch's Artemis
Can't be the Lion whose hubris showed him a paper tiger
Can't be Khan, a noble loaner who could not aspire to challenges outside the Great Hunt
Can't be Alpharius Omegon who reasoned themselves into fruitless betrayals and overreached trying to legitimize their losing horse in the Cabal's stable
I see only Sanguinius: able to stare the end of immortality down and risk it all to save all
Or Dorn, his father's castellan and loyal commander of good in defiance of evil
Or Guilliman, whose accolades, successes and laurels outshine them all... And with the humility to walk away from the seductive siren of power when he had the Imperium as his realm.
Very eloquent and insightful. To play devil's advocate, however...
Can't be Sanguinius, as he was defeated in mortal combat by another Primarch. Perhaps he had the courage to sacrifice his life for loyalty, but he lacked the audacity to seek power at any cost.
Can't be Dorn; the best defense is a good offense, but no one ever says the reverse.
Can't be Guilliman. The most well-rounded and organized loyal Primarch, he wasn't selected as Warmaster. This means that Horus, while also extremely well-rounded and organized, had special qualities that Roboute lacked. I would vote for sheer force of personality; he had his Father's charisma.
Honestly, I think Horus was obviously the most powerful. when he fell to Chaos, he took half of the Empire with him. That's power.
I voted for Magnus, however, as I thought the question was basically who wields the most power as an individual. Gotta be Magnus, as he's a giant warrior ANd a genius sorcerer.
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Post by: Niexist
In my opinion the next most obvious choice for warmaster after Horus would be the one who won the most battles besides Horus. Which is the 1st legion, and the Lion. Considering the Lion was found later than Horus, I think a lot of his victories might be attributable to longer participation in combat.
Also he didn't sucker punch Leman Russ, Leman Russ sucker punched him because he was mad that the Lion stole his kill. He didn't start the fight he simply finished it.
Really the only competition to Lion El'Johnson is Vulkan because he is the only one who could currently be alive, and not corrupted by chaos. Every single other primarch is either dead, or has been in the eye of terror for 10,000 years, so in all likelihood, 10k years in the eye of terror is going to turn them to chaos if they're not dead yet. There is only two loyal primarchs left alive in my head-cannon.
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Post by: Brother Payne
I love the Lion but I hate to say - it'd have to be Magnus 
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Post by: Ugin, the Owl King
Niexist wrote:Really the only competition to Lion El'Johnson is Vulkan because he is the only one who could currently be alive, and not corrupted by chaos. Every single other primarch is either dead, or has been in the eye of terror for 10,000 years, so in all likelihood, 10k years in the eye of terror is going to turn them to chaos if they're not dead yet. There is only two loyal primarchs left alive in my head-cannon.
IIRC...
There are six loyal Primarchs who may still be alive.
Vulkan, missing and presumed dead,
Russ, lost in the Eye
Corax, lost in the Eye,
Khan, lost in the Webway,
Johnson, sleeping in the Rock,
Guilliman, sleeping in Macragge.
Of course, there are other mysteries, such as "what happened to Dorn?', etc. But I think the above are the most likely six to be alive. For the record, I haven't read Vulkan Lives, but (spoiler alert), I've heard that this isn't the point of the book at all.
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Post by: Niexist
 Ugin, the Owl King wrote:Niexist wrote:Really the only competition to Lion El'Johnson is Vulkan because he is the only one who could currently be alive, and not corrupted by chaos. Every single other primarch is either dead, or has been in the eye of terror for 10,000 years, so in all likelihood, 10k years in the eye of terror is going to turn them to chaos if they're not dead yet. There is only two loyal primarchs left alive in my head-cannon.
IIRC...
There are six loyal Primarchs who may still be alive.
Vulkan, missing and presumed dead,
Russ, lost in the Eye
Corax, lost in the Eye,
Khan, lost in the Webway,
Johnson, sleeping in the Rock,
Guilliman, sleeping in Macragge.
Of course, there are other mysteries, such as "what happened to Dorn?', etc. But I think the above are the most likely six to be alive. For the record, I haven't read Vulkan Lives, but (spoiler alert), I've heard that this isn't the point of the book at all.
In my head cannon lost in the eye = chaos corrupted if not dead, you're not spending 10,000 years in the eye of terror and coming out the same person. So Corax/Russ are dead at best, chaos corrupted at worst.
Khan is lost in the webway, and presumed to be dead. If he's not dead (highly unlikely as the Dark Eldar would would have let something slip in 10,000 years)he's a slave to the Dark Eldar, but I don't see him surviving in the 10,000 years in Commoragh.
Guilliman is poisoned and he'll be dead within minutes of coming out of that stasis pod, regardless of whether he's been healed or not. He is still poisoned, and as I understand it(correct me if I'm wrong, entirely possible.) That poison will kill him.
This leaves Vulkan, and the Lion
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Post by: raiden
Ugin, the Owl King wrote: Lobukia wrote:Can't be Horus, for all his gifts, he was a moral weakling, easily manipulated and led like a dog on the hunt
Can't be Angron, he could not progress beyond the single dimension that defined him
Can't be Mortarion, inability to see the bigger truth that he was saved from being wasted, and in turn became that which he hated most
Can't be Russ, he is the ultimate errand boy and axe man, but never aspired to more
Can't be Lorgar, that sad piece of filth's only bold move was betrayal. Locking him in as the cross between Loki and Commodos that he is
Can't be Fulgrim, his weakness was so easily turned as for it to be almost laughable in its malleability.
Can't be Vulcan, for all his ability he lacked the drive to succeed that defines all great ones
Can't be Corax, his shame led to failures. An inability to cope with setbacks removes him from play
Can't be Konrad, that damaged psyche could barely handle being, let alone doing
Can't be Peturabo his anger and resentment harnessed him to a sled of bitterness and limited his ability to achieve
Can't be Ferrus, like so many of his siblings, great offences and challenges gave him tunnel vision with fatal consequences
Can't be Magnus, the Adonis to Tzeentch's Artemis
Can't be the Lion whose hubris showed him a paper tiger
Can't be Khan, a noble loaner who could not aspire to challenges outside the Great Hunt
Can't be Alpharius Omegon who reasoned themselves into fruitless betrayals and overreached trying to legitimize their losing horse in the Cabal's stable
I see only Sanguinius: able to stare the end of immortality down and risk it all to save all
Or Dorn, his father's castellan and loyal commander of good in defiance of evil
Or Guilliman, whose accolades, successes and laurels outshine them all... And with the humility to walk away from the seductive siren of power when he had the Imperium as his realm.
Very eloquent and insightful. To play devil's advocate, however...
Can't be Sanguinius, as he was defeated in mortal combat by another Primarch. Perhaps he had the courage to sacrifice his life for loyalty, but he lacked the audacity to seek power at any cost.
Can't be Dorn; the best defense is a good offense, but no one ever says the reverse.
Can't be Guilliman. The most well-rounded and organized loyal Primarch, he wasn't selected as Warmaster. This means that Horus, while also extremely well-rounded and organized, had special qualities that Roboute lacked. I would vote for sheer force of personality; he had his Father's charisma.
Honestly, I think Horus was obviously the most powerful. when he fell to Chaos, he took half of the Empire with him. That's power.
I voted for Magnus, however, as I thought the question was basically who wields the most power as an individual. Gotta be Magnus, as he's a giant warrior ANd a genius sorcerer.
Horus was not the most powerful UNTIL he fell to chaos, please remember do judge these based on up too chaos possession, the reason Sanguinius was defeated so easily was due to ALL FOUR DARK GODS possessing Horus.
the difference in Horus and Guilliman is simple, Horus was extremely charismatic, while Guilliman was stoic.
I like Dorn a lot, but, I agree he is not the most badass or powerful Automatically Appended Next Post: Niexist wrote: Ugin, the Owl King wrote:Niexist wrote:Really the only competition to Lion El'Johnson is Vulkan because he is the only one who could currently be alive, and not corrupted by chaos. Every single other primarch is either dead, or has been in the eye of terror for 10,000 years, so in all likelihood, 10k years in the eye of terror is going to turn them to chaos if they're not dead yet. There is only two loyal primarchs left alive in my head-cannon.
IIRC...
There are six loyal Primarchs who may still be alive.
Vulkan, missing and presumed dead,
Russ, lost in the Eye
Corax, lost in the Eye,
Khan, lost in the Webway,
Johnson, sleeping in the Rock,
Guilliman, sleeping in Macragge.
Of course, there are other mysteries, such as "what happened to Dorn?', etc. But I think the above are the most likely six to be alive. For the record, I haven't read Vulkan Lives, but (spoiler alert), I've heard that this isn't the point of the book at all.
In my head cannon lost in the eye = chaos corrupted if not dead, you're not spending 10,000 years in the eye of terror and coming out the same person. So Corax/Russ are dead at best, chaos corrupted at worst.
Khan is lost in the webway, and presumed to be dead. If he's not dead (highly unlikely as the Dark Eldar would would have let something slip in 10,000 years)he's a slave to the Dark Eldar, but I don't see him surviving in the 10,000 years in Commoragh.
Guilliman is poisoned and he'll be dead within minutes of coming out of that stasis pod, regardless of whether he's been healed or not. He is still poisoned, and as I understand it(correct me if I'm wrong, entirely possible.) That poison will kill him.
This leaves Vulkan, and the Lion
I disagree, Guilliman may be healing, we don't know, I doubt that they will kill him. don't know a lot about Khan. there are several instances of normal space marines spending years if not decades or centuries in the Eye of chaos and coming out unscathed, and actually stronger for it.
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Post by: Deadshot
No, Guilliman is dead. He was frozen at the instant of death and is dead. Those who say he is healing (completely impossible, by the way) are pilgrims who have travelled decades and hundreds of light years to see a dead man, even a Primarch. These people are practically delirious by the time they see him.
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Post by: DarthOvious
PredaKhaine wrote:
We've had this one before
Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson. If Russ beat Angron, Angron would've just got up and tried to kill him again. ADB even said that Angron lost and that the reason why he lost is that he doesn't understand that he lost.
Lorgar tried to point out that Angron lost but Angron wasn't having it.
I not saying Russ would win in a straight 1v1, but I don't think that fight was a reason to mark Russ down
ps:for the record, I didn't vote Russ either
I feel this needs to be clarrified more. The lesson that Russ was trying to teach Angron was the value of a legion. Its the one thing that Angron doesn't understand is how his legion is essential. Although Angron was standing over him claiming victory, Russ told him he that he didn't win because all the Space Wolves still had their bolters aimed at Angron. The point that Russ was making is that even if Angron was to kill him, he would still lose and die because his entire legion had their bolters pointed at Angron. So its insinuated here that Russ wasn't trying to beat Angron in the first place and what he did was deliberate.
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Post by: Haight
Ugin, the Owl King wrote:Niexist wrote:Really the only competition to Lion El'Johnson is Vulkan because he is the only one who could currently be alive, and not corrupted by chaos. Every single other primarch is either dead, or has been in the eye of terror for 10,000 years, so in all likelihood, 10k years in the eye of terror is going to turn them to chaos if they're not dead yet. There is only two loyal primarchs left alive in my head-cannon.
IIRC...
There are six loyal Primarchs who may still be alive.
Vulkan, missing and presumed dead,
Russ, lost in the Eye
Corax, lost in the Eye,
Khan, lost in the Webway,
Johnson, sleeping in the Rock,
Guilliman, sleeping in Macragge.
Of course, there are other mysteries, such as "what happened to Dorn?', etc. But I think the above are the most likely six to be alive. For the record, I haven't read Vulkan Lives, but (spoiler alert), I've heard that this isn't the point of the book at all.
Wasn't Dorn killed boarding a chaos cruiser while he was suicidally outnumbered during the 1st Black Crusade, or something to that effect ?
EDIT: Ah, there's the typical "well no one knows for suuuuuuuuuureeee....." footnote to that tale, i see.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
I got to thinking about this and I reckon its easier to pick separate primarchs for hardest, most powerful and most badass. Hardest - Angron. He lives to beat people down into the dust. In a physical match up,1vs1, (without using superpowers) I don't see Angron having an equal. Unless Sanguinius gets a bit more book time... Most Powerful - Either Magnus or, weirdly, Russ. Magnus has displayed the most power out of any of the primarchs so far - communing the length of space that he did to speak to the emp, crushing a titan with his mind etc. No other primarch has displayed that level. But as TheSaintofKillers pointed out earlier in the thread, Russ was anti psychic. How powerful an anti psyker must he be in order to stop Magnus using his titan crushing powers? I think its worth thinking about. Most badass - For me it has to be Curze. He's winning the primarch 'whuppometer' (Dorn, The Lion and Vulkan, he made Corax run away and in Unremebered Empire He's managed to turn flying rodent gak crazy into an artform. Almost all the primarchs he's fought beat him in the rematches when they realised he wasn't actually that hard, but the fact remains he's beaten the most opposing primarchs out of anyone so far. Somehow. Did I mention he's madder than a bag of cats?
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Post by: BaconUprising
Which primarchs has he beaten? Angeon has beaten 2. I can stake the feeling that Horus would win every 1v1. Coral said he was the strongest.
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Post by: raiden
 Deadshot wrote:No, Guilliman is dead. He was frozen at the instant of death and is dead. Those who say he is healing (completely impossible, by the way) are pilgrims who have travelled decades and hundreds of light years to see a dead man, even a Primarch. These people are practically delirious by the time they see him.
Such is the way of daemons, to lie and mislead.
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Post by: Ugin, the Owl King
@ Niexist: There are no instances of a Primarch being corrupted by Chaos without voluntarily giving in. Also, there are examples of lesser SMs staying strong for significant lengths of time. Furthermore, time passes differently in the Warp. It's possible Russ will step out of the Warp tomorrow eating a burrito, wondering what the hell everyone is freaking out about.
@ raiden: I'm not arguing that Horus was stronger than Sanguinius because he beat him in a fight while corrupted by Chaos. I'm arguing that, pre-corruption, Horus was the most badass because he was willing to go to any lengths, even his own corruption, to achieve the power necessary to make his vision of the universe a reality. And, in addition to being one of the most well-rounded Primarchs, he also had his Father's charisma and leadership abilities. No man, save, the Emperor, had that kind of power.
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Post by: raiden
correct me if I am wrong but if I recall correctly I believe Horus had very little say so in the matter of his possession. It is also stated that Horus, while powerful, was selected warmaster due to his charisma (which some say outshone the emperors) and his ability to get people to work together. not saying he wasn't badass though. I mean, if you can make the IF and IW get a long, heh, good onya..
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Post by: Ugin, the Owl King
No. Horus was deceived and manipulated, but he ultimately chose to serve the Ruinous Powers. I suppose you could argue that he was not responsible for a decision predicated upon falsehoods, but he could have simply not given in and the HH as we know it would not have happened.
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Post by: Kain
In terms of power, Magnus takes the cake. His sheer potency as a psyker and a sorcerer pretty much renders everyone else's talents meaningless in the face of firepower of that magnitude.
As a pure fighter, Sanguinus is the best with Angron and Horus being behind him. Angron would probably beat Horus in a fight if he got the drop on him or at least hold the advantage in a melee if neither has the element of surprise, while I'm certain that Snguinus would win in a fight against either barring unusually favorable circumstances.
50724
Post by: orkybenji
Why no option for Legion II's primarch or Legion XI's?
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Post by: BaconUprising
 Kain wrote:In terms of power, Magnus takes the cake. His sheer potency as a psyker and a sorcerer pretty much renders everyone else's talents meaningless in the face of firepower of that magnitude.
As a pure fighter, Sanguinus is the best with Angron and Horus being behind him. Angron would probably beat Horus in a fight if he got the drop on him or at least hold the advantage in a melee if neither has the element of surprise, while I'm certain that Snguinus would win in a fight against either barring unusually favorable circumstances.
Yeah I think most people are in agreement that a fully focused Magnus would beat everyone else. I really don't see Sangunius beating Hours though, even pre heresy. Corax believed that Angron was the most powerful in a 1v1 except for Horus and Sanguinus who would beat him. But he thought that Horus was unquestionably the most powerful.
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Post by: Amoras
DarthOvious wrote: PredaKhaine wrote:
We've had this one before
Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson. If Russ beat Angron, Angron would've just got up and tried to kill him again. ADB even said that Angron lost and that the reason why he lost is that he doesn't understand that he lost.
Lorgar tried to point out that Angron lost but Angron wasn't having it.
I not saying Russ would win in a straight 1v1, but I don't think that fight was a reason to mark Russ down
ps:for the record, I didn't vote Russ either
I feel this needs to be clarrified more. The lesson that Russ was trying to teach Angron was the value of a legion. Its the one thing that Angron doesn't understand is how his legion is essential. Although Angron was standing over him claiming victory, Russ told him he that he didn't win because all the Space Wolves still had their bolters aimed at Angron. The point that Russ was making is that even if Angron was to kill him, he would still lose and die because his entire legion had their bolters pointed at Angron. So its insinuated here that Russ wasn't trying to beat Angron in the first place and what he did was deliberate.
If that was the lesson i'd say he failed badly.
Angron didn't learn from it it only showed him his way beat the wolfs, The world eaters where slaughtering the wolves all around had the fight gone on the wolves would have lost it even if angron died ( which i seriously doubt a few bolters could do seeing the stuff he survives later on ).
Its been a while since i read betrayer but didn't Angron say they killed hundreds of space wolves that day, thats a steep price to pay for a lesson.
As for the poll Magnus is the most powerfull.
Horus if you count the chaos gods superjuicing him.
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Post by: BaconUprising
DarthOvious wrote: PredaKhaine wrote:
We've had this one before
Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson. If Russ beat Angron, Angron would've just got up and tried to kill him again. ADB even said that Angron lost and that the reason why he lost is that he doesn't understand that he lost.
Lorgar tried to point out that Angron lost but Angron wasn't having it.
I not saying Russ would win in a straight 1v1, but I don't think that fight was a reason to mark Russ down
ps:for the record, I didn't vote Russ either
I feel this needs to be clarrified more. The lesson that Russ was trying to teach Angron was the value of a legion. Its the one thing that Angron doesn't understand is how his legion is essential. Although Angron was standing over him claiming victory, Russ told him he that he didn't win because all the Space Wolves still had their bolters aimed at Angron. The point that Russ was making is that even if Angron was to kill him, he would still lose and die because his entire legion had their bolters pointed at Angron. So its insinuated here that Russ wasn't trying to beat Angron in the first place and what he did was deliberate.
Russ threw himself at Angron. He initiated the duel. He then lost. There was a lesson to be taught but Russ obviously lost the lesson plan and got munched for it...
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Post by: Deadshot
If we take Magnus's psyker powers into account, can we also take into account that for a time, between the sequences in Betrayer, the World Eater/Word Bearer invasion of Ultramar, rouhhly just after Calth, and the Siege of Terra, Angron was the first and at the time, only, Daemon Primarch and hence, the only one that can be conaidered immortal? So is he therefore not the most powerful at thay point?
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Post by: PandaMango141
raiden wrote: Ugin, the Owl King wrote: Lobukia wrote:Can't be Horus, for all his gifts, he was a moral weakling, easily manipulated and led like a dog on the hunt
Can't be Angron, he could not progress beyond the single dimension that defined him
Can't be Mortarion, inability to see the bigger truth that he was saved from being wasted, and in turn became that which he hated most
Can't be Russ, he is the ultimate errand boy and axe man, but never aspired to more
Can't be Lorgar, that sad piece of filth's only bold move was betrayal. Locking him in as the cross between Loki and Commodos that he is
Can't be Fulgrim, his weakness was so easily turned as for it to be almost laughable in its malleability.
Can't be Vulcan, for all his ability he lacked the drive to succeed that defines all great ones
Can't be Corax, his shame led to failures. An inability to cope with setbacks removes him from play
Can't be Konrad, that damaged psyche could barely handle being, let alone doing
Can't be Peturabo his anger and resentment harnessed him to a sled of bitterness and limited his ability to achieve
Can't be Ferrus, like so many of his siblings, great offences and challenges gave him tunnel vision with fatal consequences
Can't be Magnus, the Adonis to Tzeentch's Artemis
Can't be the Lion whose hubris showed him a paper tiger
Can't be Khan, a noble loaner who could not aspire to challenges outside the Great Hunt
Can't be Alpharius Omegon who reasoned themselves into fruitless betrayals and overreached trying to legitimize their losing horse in the Cabal's stable
I see only Sanguinius: able to stare the end of immortality down and risk it all to save all
Or Dorn, his father's castellan and loyal commander of good in defiance of evil
Or Guilliman, whose accolades, successes and laurels outshine them all... And with the humility to walk away from the seductive siren of power when he had the Imperium as his realm.
Very eloquent and insightful. To play devil's advocate, however...
Can't be Sanguinius, as he was defeated in mortal combat by another Primarch. Perhaps he had the courage to sacrifice his life for loyalty, but he lacked the audacity to seek power at any cost.
Can't be Dorn; the best defense is a good offense, but no one ever says the reverse.
Can't be Guilliman. The most well-rounded and organized loyal Primarch, he wasn't selected as Warmaster. This means that Horus, while also extremely well-rounded and organized, had special qualities that Roboute lacked. I would vote for sheer force of personality; he had his Father's charisma.
Honestly, I think Horus was obviously the most powerful. when he fell to Chaos, he took half of the Empire with him. That's power.
I voted for Magnus, however, as I thought the question was basically who wields the most power as an individual. Gotta be Magnus, as he's a giant warrior ANd a genius sorcerer.
Horus was not the most powerful UNTIL he fell to chaos, please remember do judge these based on up too chaos possession, the reason Sanguinius was defeated so easily was due to ALL FOUR DARK GODS possessing Horus.
the difference in Horus and Guilliman is simple, Horus was extremely charismatic, while Guilliman was stoic.
I like Dorn a lot, but, I agree he is not the most badass or powerful
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Niexist wrote: Ugin, the Owl King wrote:Niexist wrote:Really the only competition to Lion El'Johnson is Vulkan because he is the only one who could currently be alive, and not corrupted by chaos. Every single other primarch is either dead, or has been in the eye of terror for 10,000 years, so in all likelihood, 10k years in the eye of terror is going to turn them to chaos if they're not dead yet. There is only two loyal primarchs left alive in my head-cannon.
IIRC...
There are six loyal Primarchs who may still be alive.
Vulkan, missing and presumed dead,
Russ, lost in the Eye
Corax, lost in the Eye,
Khan, lost in the Webway,
Johnson, sleeping in the Rock,
Guilliman, sleeping in Macragge.
Of course, there are other mysteries, such as "what happened to Dorn?', etc. But I think the above are the most likely six to be alive. For the record, I haven't read Vulkan Lives, but (spoiler alert), I've heard that this isn't the point of the book at all.
In my head cannon lost in the eye = chaos corrupted if not dead, you're not spending 10,000 years in the eye of terror and coming out the same person. So Corax/Russ are dead at best, chaos corrupted at worst.
Khan is lost in the webway, and presumed to be dead. If he's not dead (highly unlikely as the Dark Eldar would would have let something slip in 10,000 years)he's a slave to the Dark Eldar, but I don't see him surviving in the 10,000 years in Commoragh.
Guilliman is poisoned and he'll be dead within minutes of coming out of that stasis pod, regardless of whether he's been healed or not. He is still poisoned, and as I understand it(correct me if I'm wrong, entirely possible.) That poison will kill him.
This leaves Vulkan, and the Lion
I disagree, Guilliman may be healing, we don't know, I doubt that they will kill him. don't know a lot about Khan. there are several instances of normal space marines spending years if not decades or centuries in the Eye of chaos and coming out unscathed, and actually stronger for it.
If I recall time is not linear in the warp. So Russ may have been in the warp for 30 of his years, yet 10,000 will have passed in the materium.
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Post by: Niexist
I think being "in the warp" is different than being in the eye of terror. The warp is the dangerous thing they use for travel while the eye of terror is a physical manifestation of the warp. Meaning that time is literal, unlike the fallen which are stuck in the warp.
Not 100% sure but this is how I understand it.
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Post by: Deadshot
No, they are the same. The Eye of Terror is what happens when the Warp pushes through to the matierial universe. Time flows differently in both. That's why you can use Warp Travel. A journey of 1000 years takes only a few days. But it goes the other way as well and what seems a 2 day blip may be in reality, centuries or even millenia (see Darnath Lysander).
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Post by: Kain
Deadshot wrote:No, they are the same. The Eye of Terror is what happens when the Warp pushes through to the matierial universe. Time flows differently in both. That's why you can use Warp Travel. A journey of 1000 years takes only a few days. But it goes the other way as well and what seems a 2 day blip may be in reality, centuries or even millenia (see Darnath Lysander).
While not entirely true (the Eye of terror and other warp storms still show their material heritage and aren't quite as "dreamlike" as the warp is) you did get warp storm afflicted areas not having a necessarily linear flow of time correctly. As for the warp, time doesn't really exist relative to the materium, you're just dropped off whenever or even before you ever left, even if you've taken every possible precaution.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
BaconUprising wrote: DarthOvious wrote: PredaKhaine wrote: We've had this one before Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson. If Russ beat Angron, Angron would've just got up and tried to kill him again. ADB even said that Angron lost and that the reason why he lost is that he doesn't understand that he lost. Lorgar tried to point out that Angron lost but Angron wasn't having it. I not saying Russ would win in a straight 1v1, but I don't think that fight was a reason to mark Russ down ps:for the record, I didn't vote Russ either
I feel this needs to be clarrified more. The lesson that Russ was trying to teach Angron was the value of a legion. Its the one thing that Angron doesn't understand is how his legion is essential. Although Angron was standing over him claiming victory, Russ told him he that he didn't win because all the Space Wolves still had their bolters aimed at Angron. The point that Russ was making is that even if Angron was to kill him, he would still lose and die because his entire legion had their bolters pointed at Angron. So its insinuated here that Russ wasn't trying to beat Angron in the first place and what he did was deliberate.
Russ threw himself at Angron. He initiated the duel. He then lost. There was a lesson to be taught but Russ obviously lost the lesson plan and got munched for it...
The lesson was that if Russ wanted Angron dead, then Angron would be dead. He'd have been shot to death by bolters and his Legion wouldn't have saved him as they didn't care. Russ's point was the 'united we stand, divided we fall' lesson. Its not his fault Angron was too stupid to learn it But equally from that, we know Russ wasn't trying to kill Angron in the fight - he was holding back. Russ didn't need to kill Angron, he only needed to isolate him to prove his point. If Russ had killed Angron, he'd have had to go and explain to the Emperor exactly what he'd done and would probably have faced sanctions. We haven't seen a straight fight between Russ and Angron. We've seen Angron fight Guilliman where Lorgar interfered, We saw Angron fight Russ where Russ wasn't fighting 100%. We've only seen Russ seriously fight Magnus, where we saw him beat Magnus (who's widely accepted to be the most powerful primarch) I'm not saying Russ would win, but we didn't see a straight fight between Angron and Russ, so I don't believe we can use that as a reference. Russ (and by extension, the wolves) main power appears to be doing whatever is needed to win the current event, with examples ranging from attacking an impregnable base by dropping a space station on it, to about 10 of the wolves defeating an entire Dark Eldar raiding fleet...
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Post by: Amoras
We've only seen Russ seriously fight Magnus, where we saw him beat Magnus (who's widely accepted to be the most powerful primarch)
I'm not saying Russ would win, but we didn't see a straight fight between Angron and Russ, so I don't believe we can use that as a reference.
For the same reason we can't use Russ vs Magnus as a reference as Magnus was at his very worst and the situation heavily favoured the wolf.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
But Magnus and Russ were both fighting to kill.
(personally, I think the situation favoured Magnus - Magnus can kill titans with his mind. How can he not be favourite in any battle he's in? )
Russ wasn't trying to kill Angron. At no point have I said Russ beat Angron or that Angron wouldn't be perfectly capable of winning even if Russ was fighting at 100%.
It's like claiming that someone won in boxing because his opponant took a dive. Technically, they win the prize, but you never know how it would've played out if they'd been left to it.
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Post by: Lemartes12
ok here is the end all.... SANGUINUS CAN FLY WITHOUT A JUMP PACK. So everyone except Maybe Magus (remember PRE-HERESY) can just stew on the ground until Sanguinus drops in on them.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
I don't think that just because Sanguinius can fly means he auto wins.
Massively psychic and incredibly skilled in arms, with the power of a raging berzerker to boot would probably give him an advantage though
I don't think we've seen enough in the books to compare him though. He's not even in 30k yet.
But I've no doubt, that when he is, he'll be a beast.
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Post by: Lemartes12
PredaKhaine wrote:I don't think that just because Sanguinius can fly means he auto wins.
Massively psychic and incredibly skilled in arms, with the power of a raging berzerker to boot would probably give him an advantage though
I don't think we've seen enough in the books to compare him though. He's not even in 30k yet.
But I've no doubt, that when he is, he'll be a beast.
Honestly i think his rage is worse than Angorn's, he just has the willpower to fight it.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
Most of the time he keeps his temper - theres some fluff about him throwing a wobbly on Baal when he was growing up. Warhammerwikia wrote:
When a wandering band of Baalite mutants surprised his tribe, Sanguinius slew them all single-handedly, although they numbered over a hundred. This was the first time the members of The Blood had ever seen the Angel truly angry, for he felt his comrades' lives were in danger. When the blood-rage overtook him he was indeed terrible to behold. The full powers of a Primarch came upon him and a nimbus of light played about his head.
Ka-bandha managed to annoy Sanguinius too by killing his men and look how that played out... Also warhammerwikia wrote:
During the Battle of Terra, the vile Bloodthirster Ka'Bhanda once again confronted Sanguinius, this time, atop the Eternity Gate before the Emperor's throne room. The Greater Daemon struck Sanguinius, casting the angel upon the broken stone. Preparing to strike a killing blow, the Blood Angels' Primarch called upon his last reserves of strength and power. With a massive effort, he leapt upon the Bloodthirster, seized it about the wrist and ankle and rose up high into the air, smashing the daemon's form across his knee and breaking the creature's back with a powerful crack. He then swung the body of Ka'Bandha around and hurled the broken behemoth into the midst of the daemonic host, slamming the Eternity Gate shut against the ravening hordes
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Post by: Dr.Desastro
It is either "Robert Gulliman" or "Roboute Guillaume" AFAIK...*sigh*
And I guess he is the greatest strategist besides the emperor and the most humane.
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Post by: PredaKhaine
I'd go for Roboute Guilliman
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Post by: Ugin, the Owl King
Part of the problem is that we haven't really defined our terms satisfactorily (i.e. - what is power?). I argued for Horus, as he was powerful enough to virtually destroy the IoM, but I voted for Magnus, because I think he would be able to beat virtually all of his brothers in a fight (save Russ, for reasons discussed - but I don't think that makes Russ "more powerful," just better in that match-up).
Another way to phrase the question would be, "Which Primarch, based on their pre-Heresy fluff, should cost the most points?". I would have to say Magnus, as again, he would beat everyone save Russ in a fight. However, there is still the context of leadership abilities. You could argue that Horus on the battlefield would inspire such loyalty from his troops that he should have expensive special rules.
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Post by: Wolf Lord Kevin
I still back Russ. Though on a matter of points cost for a game...Yeah I can see Horus costing a lot along with Magnus
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Post by: Kain
 Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:I still back Russ. Though on a matter of points cost for a game...Yeah I can see Horus costing a lot along with Magnus
Actually some of the Primarchs already have stats from Forgeworld. And yes, Horus costs a ton.
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Post by: Wolf Lord Kevin
Kain wrote:
Actually some of the Primarchs already have stats from Forgeworld. And yes, Horus costs a ton.
I heard about this but haven't seen it yet :( Friend of mine showed me an image of Horus and Angron's stats and gear etc but I would like to see em all especially Russ'
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Post by: Kain
Wolf Lord Kevin wrote: Kain wrote:
Actually some of the Primarchs already have stats from Forgeworld. And yes, Horus costs a ton.
I heard about this but haven't seen it yet :( Friend of mine showed me an image of Horus and Angron's stats and gear etc but I would like to see em all especially Russ'
I'm sure everyone will get their time in the soon enough.
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Post by: Wolf Lord Kevin
Kain wrote: Wolf Lord Kevin wrote: Kain wrote:
Actually some of the Primarchs already have stats from Forgeworld. And yes, Horus costs a ton.
I heard about this but haven't seen it yet :( Friend of mine showed me an image of Horus and Angron's stats and gear etc but I would like to see em all especially Russ'
I'm sure everyone will get their time in the soon enough.
Can't wait to see all the Primarchs get their own models....I still want get my hands on the really awesome looking Russ one but seeing Forge World do one is going to be so awesome o-o Fulgrim and Angron look so beast!
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Post by: Kain
Wolf Lord Kevin wrote: Kain wrote: Wolf Lord Kevin wrote: Kain wrote:
Actually some of the Primarchs already have stats from Forgeworld. And yes, Horus costs a ton.
I heard about this but haven't seen it yet :( Friend of mine showed me an image of Horus and Angron's stats and gear etc but I would like to see em all especially Russ'
I'm sure everyone will get their time in the soon enough.
Can't wait to see all the Primarchs get their own models....I still want get my hands on the really awesome looking Russ one but seeing Forge World do one is going to be so awesome o-o Fulgrim and Angron look so beast!
I'm sure the Space wolves will also get a pretty nice "unique unit" for their legion too.
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Post by: BaconUprising
I hate Space wolves but damn the Wulfen should be cool!
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Post by: Wolf Lord Kevin
Kain wrote: Wolf Lord Kevin wrote: Kain wrote: Wolf Lord Kevin wrote: Kain wrote:
Actually some of the Primarchs already have stats from Forgeworld. And yes, Horus costs a ton.
I heard about this but haven't seen it yet :( Friend of mine showed me an image of Horus and Angron's stats and gear etc but I would like to see em all especially Russ'
I'm sure everyone will get their time in the soon enough.
Can't wait to see all the Primarchs get their own models....I still want get my hands on the really awesome looking Russ one but seeing Forge World do one is going to be so awesome o-o Fulgrim and Angron look so beast!
I'm sure the Space wolves will also get a pretty nice "unique unit" for their legion too.
A return of the Wolfen models would be amazing! Heck the return of the 13th company as a whole would be amazing! Heck already drooling from thinking of it....o-o
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Post by: the shrouded lord
Ha ha ha, mr. Bike samerai only has one vote. Lol.
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Post by: Knockagh
Alpharius, the man has no personal pride staying buried in the background. A man with bags of ambition but no desire for personal glory is one to watch!
Other than that the just plain nasty mr cruse, he is a git.
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Post by: DarthMarko
Leman Russ (melee beast, general, battle cunning, hunter, anti-psyker, executioner ) or Magnus the Red (epic psychic power, physical beast and a scholar)...
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Post by: Wolf Lord Kevin
 DarthMarko wrote:Leman Russ (melee beast, general, battle cunning, hunter, anti-psyker, executioner ) or Magnus the Red (epic psychic power, physical beast and a scholar)...
Your signature....That right there....is a huge win....Though your choice kinda interests me...You sport The Lion as your sign yet you back the wolf and the psyker who can rival the Emperor. I like this 
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Post by: Niexist
Leman Russ,
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Post by: DarthMarko
Wolf Lord Kevin wrote: DarthMarko wrote:Leman Russ (melee beast, general, battle cunning, hunter, anti-psyker, executioner ) or Magnus the Red (epic psychic power, physical beast and a scholar)...
Your signature....That right there....is a huge win....Though your choice kinda interests me...You sport The Lion as your sign yet you back the wolf and the psyker who can rival the Emperor. I like this
Nah, I'm messing with the profile just for fun...And i like them all (in a way)...But Russ is a freaking Vladimir Kulitch of 40k...and I'm a wolf man - 1000%.....
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Post by: Lord Gatlas
MUTHAFUGGIN VULKAN.
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Post by: BaconUprising
well he'd just be killed over and over again by a better primarch
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Post by: Wolf Lord Kevin
ouch bro way to smack Vulkan dude Automatically Appended Next Post: DarthMarko wrote: Wolf Lord Kevin wrote: DarthMarko wrote:Leman Russ (melee beast, general, battle cunning, hunter, anti-psyker, executioner ) or Magnus the Red (epic psychic power, physical beast and a scholar)...
Your signature....That right there....is a huge win....Though your choice kinda interests me...You sport The Lion as your sign yet you back the wolf and the psyker who can rival the Emperor. I like this
Nah, I'm messing with the profile just for fun...And i like them all (in a way)...But Russ is a freaking Vladimir Kulitch of 40k...and I'm a wolf man - 1000%.....
I can exalt this. I can exalt this a lot 
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Post by: SickSix
I discount Russ beating Magnus. Magnus wanted to lose. He was in a 'weak' mindset.
No doubt Russ is powerful. Designed as the Emperor's executioner.
But Magnus @ 100% would be hard for anyone but the Emperor to bring down.
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Post by: Poly Ranger
Lobukia wrote:Can't be Horus, for all his gifts, he was a moral weakling, easily manipulated and led like a dog on the hunt
Can't be Angron, he could not progress beyond the single dimension that defined him
Can't be Mortarion, inability to see the bigger truth that he was saved from being wasted, and in turn became that which he hated most
Can't be Russ, he is the ultimate errand boy and axe man, but never aspired to more
Can't be Lorgar, that sad piece of filth's only bold move was betrayal. Locking him in as the cross between Loki and Commodos that he is
Can't be Fulgrim, his weakness was so easily turned as for it to be almost laughable in its malleability.
Can't be Vulcan, for all his ability he lacked the drive to succeed that defines all great ones
Can't be Corax, his shame led to failures. An inability to cope with setbacks removes him from play
Can't be Konrad, that damaged psyche could barely handle being, let alone doing
Can't be Peturabo his anger and resentment harnessed him to a sled of bitterness and limited his ability to achieve
Can't be Ferrus, like so many of his siblings, great offences and challenges gave him tunnel vision with fatal consequences
Can't be Magnus, the Adonis to Tzeentch's Artemis
Can't be the Lion whose hubris showed him a paper tiger
Can't be Khan, a noble loaner who could not aspire to challenges outside the Great Hunt
Can't be Alpharius Omegon who reasoned themselves into fruitless betrayals and overreached trying to legitimize their losing horse in the Cabal's stable
I see only Sanguinius: able to stare the end of immortality down and risk it all to save all
Or Dorn, his father's castellan and loyal commander of good in defiance of evil
Or Guilliman, whose accolades, successes and laurels outshine them all... And with the humility to walk away from the seductive siren of power when he had the Imperium as his realm.
This is almost exactly how I reasoned it. With the exception of Magnus, all the traitor primarchs had a glaring character weakness that was maipulated by chaos. Magnus was shoved face first into his pact with Tzeentch, he'd resisted him time and time again but Russ basically held his head underwater and made him inhale chaos (analogy not literal).
If disregarding character traits, the 3 top tier Primarchs have to be Magnus, Horus and Sanguinius in that order. Vulkan comes a close 4th due to the sheer fact he can be decapitated and still hold a dialogue.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
Magnus did have a weakness, his overconfidence, he believed he had mastered the warp, that he could outsmart even Tzeentch. He definitely was the most difficult of the traitor Primarchs for chaos to turn though, they had to manipulate the Emperor and Russ into betraying him first before he turned.
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Post by: Deadshot
Chaos didn't manipulate the Emperor (I doubt they could) or Russ. Horus manipulated Russ by changing the order from "Arrest" to "Destroy."
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Post by: BaconUprising
Deadshot wrote:Chaos didn't manipulate the Emperor (I doubt they could) or Russ. Horus manipulated Russ by changing the order from "Arrest" to "Destroy."
*Horus acting on behalf of chaos.
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Post by: Deadshot
Still, it was Horus, not Chaos itself.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
What about the Council of Nikea? Chaos was clearly manipulating the Emperor there.
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Post by: Deadshot
I don't really think so. I genuinely doubt Chaos COULD manipulate the Emperor.
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Post by: SickSix
Deadshot wrote:I don't really think so. I genuinely doubt Chaos COULD manipulate the Emperor.
No, Chaos just broke into his sanctum and stole his babies.
Besides, the Emperor was making enough bone headed decisions on his own. Chaos didn't really need to manipulate him.
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Post by: Void__Dragon
Powerful, as in personally?
All of the Primarchs have vastly superhuman physical abilities, and are all skilled warriors of perhaps varying potency.
But only one of them can destroy Titans with his mind, or rip the surface off a planet.
It's Magnus.
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