The most powerful Primarch

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**JesusFreak**

I want it to be Russ sooo badly...but it simply as to be Sanguinius ftw.

**Haight**

TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't think Horus was scared so much of Sanguinius' power, but more the fact that he had the charisma and other leadership skill to potentially replace him as the warmaster/champion of Chaos undivided. Granted, he was still pretty powerful, but I don't think he was at Leman Russ' level.

Russ is upper mid tier.
Lets show the tier based on the HH.
Highest Tier: Magnus, Sangunius, Angron. All of these should be obvious. Magnus is the strongest due to being good at HTH, and being the second strongest psyker to ever live.
Upper Mid Tier: Horus, Russ (simply due to his anti psychic abilities), Vulkan (based on Vulkan lives, spoilers)
Mid Tier: Dorn, Kurze, Manus, Khan, Fulgrim, Johnson, Mortarion
Low Tier: Alpharius and Omegon, Lorgar

All well and good, though nothing in the horus heresy book breaks a chart out like what you describe in so many words, so it can be considered anecdotal, though i will grant you Magnus was a badass. I agree with the poster that said Sanguinius may have been feared by horus due to his total combined powers of charisma, etc., rather than on raw skill alone. Horus comments that Sang should have been warmaster. A warmaster needs to be a tactitician, strategist, and leader every bit as much as he needs the ability to get the job done with bolter and sword.

I was half joking with my anecdote about Johnson knocking out russ. Another reason why i feel he could be a candidate for "most powerful" is he's regularly referred to as a master strategist. As Dorn found out, even a primarch cant' take on an army solo, however the ability to wield armies skillfully makes for a very powerful primarch.

Also, ya know, he's one of few primarchs that we know aren't dead yet. Not that he's truly alive currently, as he's in some sort of stasis mode on The Rock - but that's a step above "Missing, hopefully not dead", and "Most certainly has assumed room temperature".

... in any event, polls like this are basically a bit silly - it's a reason to foment a bit of knowledge and particular preference for a primarch you like.

**Storm Shadow**

vulkan, he's immortal.

**Lemartes12**

Sanguinus is the most badass. The reason why being he KNEW he would die if he fought uber horus. He had the choice to let the emporer fall and take power. But he chose the sacrificial play so that humanity would still have its emporer. Who would have taken up the beacon if the emporer truely died? No one is powerful enough (Cept maybe magnus). So to prevent humanity from slipping into an age of darkness he weakend horus.
And unlike Horus he resisted the temptation of Chaos. Threw it down and broke it. He fought the Darkness within him daily and his legion still does even after his death.

**PrinceRaven**

Lemartes12 wrote:
Who would have taken up the beacon if the emporer truely died? No one is powerful enough (Cept maybe magnus).

It's a good thing the Emperor kept that in mind and didn't completely overreact to Magnus' warning about Horus by sicking an entire Legion on him.

Wait, he did?

Well at least he sent a Legion with some restraint, not a bunch of superstitious, psyker-hating rampaging lunatics.

Oh, he sent the Space Wolves?

Well at least he explicitly told Leman Russ that he was supposed to detain Magnus, not go completely overboard and nuke Prospera from orbit, then go in and obliterate everything he could find still standing, including his brother...
... Right?

**BaconUprising**

Lemartes12 wrote:
Sanguinus is the most badass. The reason why being he KNEW he would die if he fought uber horus. He had the choice to let the emporer fall and take power. But he chose the sacrificial play so that humanity would still have its emporer. Who would have taken up the beacon if the emporer truely died? No one is powerful enough (Cept maybe magnus). So to prevent humanity from slipping into an age of darkness he weakend horus.
And unlike Horus he resisted the temptation of Chaos. Threw it down and broke it. He fought the Darkness within him daily and his legion still does even after his death.

Yes! So agree with this! People seem to not realise that if sanguinus had fallen to chaos and become warmaster instead of Horus, if Horus had faced him he would have died. But pre heresy I still think Horus was the most powerful in a straight up 1v1. To all those people saying Leman Russ is top tier, read Betrayer...

Spoiler:

**the shrouded lord**

PredaKhaine wrote:
the shrouded lord wrote:
Very Superstitious wrote:
TheSaintofKilllers wrote:
The lion is a normal primarch and he's winning?!
WTF MAN!!!
That's just wrong. If your answer is not Sanguinius, Angron, or Magnus you need to read more.

The Lion grew up killing demons on Caliban with his bare hands like it was nothing

1. They were beasts, not Demons
2. He HELPED a butt load of knights do it, one person can't kill a planet of monsters

Ok, back on topic, I have 3 favorites, 2 now chaos and 1 loyalist
1. Fulgrim, because he is literally imprisoned in his brain juices. (pre tenticles)
2. Horus, for his hair. (pre heresy)

1. VULKAN cause I'm slightly pyromaniac
Also, just checked the wiki, DORN IS DEAD?!?!

1)they were beasts, heavily corrupted by chaos to be much more powerful than they were originally. Kinda demon beasts.
2)The Order wasn't the biggest order of knights when he started iirc - but they did have Luther so they may have been able to do it anyway so you could well have a point
1)Fulgrim is released from his own brain and making up for lost time. As a snake demon thing
2)Have you got a pic of Horus's do?

And yeah - Dorn dies after the heresy in a boarding action against a chaos ship. Although thats got a little murkier now with people saying they've only found his hand. I don't know where that came from.

1. FrOm what I've read it'd be like this: http://www.fashionliness.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/07/cool-hair-styles-for-men-with-long-hair.jpg except a little but longer at the back, and with not-as-gay person underneath.
Also, dorn's death is SO underwhelming

**BaconUprising**

Well they have to kill the pompous old fool someway.

**PredaKhaine**

BaconUprising wrote:
To all those people saying Leman Russ is top tier, read Betrayer...

Spoiler:

Angron cirbstomps him.

We've had this one before

Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson. If Russ beat Angron, Angron would've just got up and tried to kill him again. ADB even said that Angron lost and that the reason why he lost is that he doesn't understand that he lost.
Lorgar tried to point out that Angron lost but Angron wasn't having it.
I not saying Russ would win in a straight 1v1, but I don't think that fight was a reason to mark Russ down

ps:for the record, I didn't vote Russ either

**Deadshot**

PrinceRaven wrote: Well at least he explicitly told Leman Russ that he was supposed to detain Magnus, not go completely overboard and nuke Prospera from orbit, then go in and obliterate everything he could find still standing, including his brother... ... Right?

As far as I kmow this was more or less his reaction, but Horus intercepted the message and sent his own saying that the Emperor had said to raze Prospero to the ground.

And the Emperor ordered detainment in the first place because he didn't believe that Horus was traitor. From evidence presented to him, Magnus had explicitly disobeyed him to tell him HORUS, golden boy Horus, his favoured son, Warmaster of the Great Crusade and the Emperor's right hand man, the first Primarch and all that jazz, was going to attack and destroy the Imperium on behalf of the Chaos Gods.

**PrinceRaven**

Oh, Horus intercepted the message? I was under the impression Russ got the message, but Horus basically told him to interpret it as a go ahead for all out war.

**Deadshot**

That may be it. I can't remember exactly but what I do know is that Big E said "arrest and detain" and Horus said "Russ, kill. Good boy."

**BaconUprising**

PredaKhaine wrote:
BaconUprising wrote:
To all those people saying Leman Russ is top tier, read Betrayer...

Spoiler:

Angron cirbstomps him.

We've had this one before

Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson. If Russ beat Angron, Angron would've just got up and tried to kill him again. ADB even said that Angron lost and that the reason why he lost is that he doesn't understand that he lost.
Lorgar tried to point out that Angron lost but Angron wasn't having it.
I not saying Russ would win in a straight 1v1, but I don't think that fight was a reason to mark Russ down

ps:for the record, I didn't vote Russ either

Im aware ADB said that Angron lost but I believe he was referring to the battle rather than the 1v1. It is specifically stated on 2 occasions that he won.

**Wolf Lord Kevin**

I'm back Russ. The Lion got a cheap shot in while Russ was laughing. The Lion is awesome in his own right but come on man...WHY A CHEAP SHOT LIKE THAT ON A BROTHER?!

Russ took on Magnus whom is deemed extremely powerful. Sure Magnus was all bent out of shape for realizing he was being stupid but still put up a fight which again...Russ did a Bane and broke someone's back. Also there was that crazy howl of his that wrecked over a lot of Thousand Sons and their big pyramids and stuff.

Held his own against Angron while not trying to kill him. Accomplished the mission given to him and left Angron raging. Also heard one of Angron's axes broke(again) that day sooo ya another point to my man Russ!

Lastly offered the good o'l God Emperor some defeat in the form of eating and drinking then getting into a brawl while drunk. Yes got knocked the hell out via powerfist(Daaaang dad why you gotta use the big fist) but still point is...awesomeness.

**Wardragoon**

I have to say Alpharius/omegon, the only primarch without daemon gifts who is arguably alive and well after ten thousand years of trolling and fighting

**BaconUprising**

In terms of Forge World rules so far I've tested all if the Primarchs. Horus is undoubtedly the best almost entirely due to his talon followed by Angron. The rest I can't fully remember the results.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do seem to have some damn good luck with Lorgar though. I've had him kill everyone except Horus so far.

**Looky Likey**

Lemartes12 wrote:
Sanguinus is the most badass. The reason why being he KNEW he would die if he fought uber horus. He had the choice to let the emporer fall and take power. But he chose the sacrificial play so that humanity would still have its emporer. Who would have taken up the beacon if the emporer truely died? No one is powerful enough (Cept maybe magnus). So to prevent humanity from slipping into an age of darkness he weakend horus.
And unlike Horus he resisted the temptation of Chaos. Threw it down and broke it. He fought the Darkness within him daily and his legion still does even after his death.

in one of the me recent HH books the emperor said that Magnus was destined to power the beacon, I think Magnus had a lucky escape.

**Bulldogging**

Magnus without a doubt.

In regards to Russ, he fought an unarmed(well as unarmed as he could be) and broken spirited Magnus. I give that victory to Tzentch.

**Happyjew**

Actually, the most powerful (and badass) Primarch is only remembered by a picture.

Spoiler:

In all seriousness though, how are we defining "powerful"?

**Ugin, the Owl King**

Lobukia wrote:
Can't be Horus, for all his gifts, he was a moral weakling, easily manipulated and led like a dog on the hunt

Can't be Angron, he could not progress beyond the single dimension that defined him

Can't be Mortarion, inability to see the bigger truth that he was saved from being wasted, and in turn became that which he hated most

Can't be Russ, he is the ultimate errand boy and axe man, but never aspired to more

Can't be Lorgar, that sad piece of filth's only bold move was betrayal. Locking him in as the cross between Loki and Commodos that he is

Can't be Fulgrim, his weakness was so easily turned as for it to be almost laughable in its malleability.

Can't be Vulcan, for all his ability he lacked the drive to succeed that defines all great ones

Can't be Corax, his shame led to failures. An inability to cope with setbacks removes him from play

Can't be Konrad, that damaged psyche could barely handle being, let alone doing

Can't be Peturabo his anger and resentment harnessed him to a sled of bitterness and limited his ability to achieve

Can't be Ferrus, like so many of his siblings, great offences and challenges gave him tunnel vision with fatal consequences

Can't be Magnus, the Adonis to Tzeentch's Artemis

Can't be the Lion whose hubris showed him a paper tiger

Can't be Khan, a noble loaner who could not aspire to challenges outside the Great Hunt

Can't be Alpharius Omegon who reasoned themselves into fruitless betrayals and overreached trying to legitimize their losing horse in the Cabal's stable

I see only Sanguinius: able to stare the end of immortality down and risk it all to save all

Or Dorn, his father's castellan and loyal commander of good in defiance of evil

Or Guilliman, whose accolades, successes and laurels outshine them all... And with the humility to walk away from the seductive siren of power when he had the Imperium as his realm.

Very eloquent and insightful. To play devil's advocate, however...

Can't be Sanguinius, as he was defeated in mortal combat by another Primarch. Perhaps he had the courage to sacrifice his life for loyalty, but he lacked the audacity to seek power at any cost.

Can't be Dorn; the best defense is a good offense, but no one ever says the reverse.

Can't be Guilliman. The most well-rounded and organized loyal Primarch, he wasn't selected as Warmaster. This means that Horus, while also extremely well-rounded and organized, had special qualities that Roboute lacked. I would vote for sheer force of personality; he had his Father's charisma.

Honestly, I think Horus was obviously the most powerful. when he fell to Chaos, he took half of the Empire with him. That's power.

I voted for Magnus, however, as I thought the question was basically who wields the most power as an individual. Gotta be Magnus, as he's a giant warrior ANd a genius sorcerer.

**Niexist**

In my opinion the next most obvious choice for warmaster after Horus would be the one who won the most battles besides Horus. Which is the 1st legion, and the Lion. Considering the Lion was found later than Horus, I think a lot of his victories might be attributable to longer participation in combat.

Also he didn't sucker punch Leman Russ, Leman Russ sucker punched him because he was mad that the Lion stole his kill. He didn't start the fight he simply finished it.

Really the only competition to Lion El'Johnson is Vulkan because he is the only one who could currently be alive, and not corrupted by chaos. Every single other primarch is either dead, or has been in the eye of terror for 10,000 years, so in all likelihood, 10k years in the eye of terror is going to turn them to chaos if they're not dead yet. There is only two loyal primarchs left alive in my head-cannon.

**Brother Payne**

I love the Lion but I hate to say - it'd have to be Magnus

**Ugin, the Owl King**

Niexist wrote:
Really the only competition to Lion El'Johnson is Vulkan because he is the only one who could currently be alive, and not corrupted by chaos. Every single other primarch is either dead, or has been in the eye of terror for 10,000 years, so in all likelihood, 10k years in the eye of terror is going to turn them to chaos if they're not dead yet. There is only two loyal primarchs left alive in my head-cannon.

IIRC...

There are six loyal Primarchs who may still be alive.

Vulkan, missing and presumed dead,

Russ, lost in the Eye

Corax, lost in the Eye,

Khan, lost in the Webway,

Johnson, sleeping in the Rock,

Guilliman, sleeping in Macragge.

Of course, there are other mysteries, such as "what happened to Dorn?', etc. But I think the above are the most likely six to be alive. For the record, I haven't read Vulkan Lives, but (spoiler alert), I've heard that this isn't the point of the book at all.

**Niexist**

Ugin, the Owl King wrote:
Niexist wrote:
Really the only competition to Lion El'Johnson is Vulkan because he is the only one who could currently be alive, and not corrupted by chaos. Every single other primarch is either dead, or has been in the eye of terror for 10,000 years, so in all likelihood, 10k years in the eye of terror is going to turn them to chaos if they're not dead yet. There is only two loyal primarchs left alive in my head-cannon.

IIRC...

There are six loyal Primarchs who may still be alive.

Vulkan, missing and presumed dead,

Russ, lost in the Eye

Corax, lost in the Eye,

Khan, lost in the Webway,

Johnson, sleeping in the Rock,

Guilliman, sleeping in Macragge.

Of course, there are other mysteries, such as "what happened to Dorn?', etc. But I think the above are the most likely six to be alive. For the record, I haven't read Vulkan Lives, but (spoiler alert), I've heard that this isn't the point of the book at all.

In my head cannon lost in the eye = chaos corrupted if not dead, you're not spending 10,000 years in the eye of terror and coming out the same person. So Corax/Russ are dead at best, chaos corrupted at worst.

Khan is lost in the webway, and presumed to be dead. If he's not dead (highly unlikely as the Dark Eldar would would have let something slip in 10,000 years)he's a slave to the Dark Eldar, but I don't see him surviving in the 10,000 years in Commoragh.

Guilliman is poisoned and he'll be dead within minutes of coming out of that stasis pod, regardless of whether he's been healed or not. He is still poisoned, and as I understand it(correct me if I'm wrong, entirely possible.) That poison will kill him.

This leaves Vulkan, and the Lion

**raiden**

Ugin, the Owl King wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
Can't be Horus, for all his gifts, he was a moral weakling, easily manipulated and led like a dog on the hunt

Can't be Angron, he could not progress beyond the single dimension that defined him

Can't be Mortarion, inability to see the bigger truth that he was saved from being wasted, and in turn became that which he hated most

Can't be Russ, he is the ultimate errand boy and axe man, but never aspired to more

Can't be Lorgar, that sad piece of filth's only bold move was betrayal. Locking him in as the cross between Loki and Commodos that he is

Can't be Fulgrim, his weakness was so easily turned as for it to be almost laughable in its malleability.

Can't be Vulcan, for all his ability he lacked the drive to succeed that defines all great ones

Can't be Corax, his shame led to failures. An inability to cope with setbacks removes him from play

Can't be Konrad, that damaged psyche could barely handle being, let alone doing

Can't be Peturabo his anger and resentment harnessed him to a sled of bitterness and limited his ability to achieve

Can't be Ferrus, like so many of his siblings, great offences and challenges gave him tunnel vision with fatal consequences

Can't be Magnus, the Adonis to Tzeentch's Artemis

Can't be the Lion whose hubris showed him a paper tiger

Can't be Khan, a noble loaner who could not aspire to challenges outside the Great Hunt

Can't be Alpharius Omegon who reasoned themselves into fruitless betrayals and overreached trying to legitimize their losing horse in the Cabal's stable

I see only Sanguinius: able to stare the end of immortality down and risk it all to save all

Or Dorn, his father's castellan and loyal commander of good in defiance of evil

Or Guilliman, whose accolades, successes and laurels outshine them all... And with the humility to walk away from the seductive siren of power when he had the Imperium as his realm.

Very eloquent and insightful. To play devil's advocate, however...

Can't be Sanguinius, as he was defeated in mortal combat by another Primarch. Perhaps he had the courage to sacrifice his life for loyalty, but he lacked the audacity to seek power at any cost.

Can't be Dorn; the best defense is a good offense, but no one ever says the reverse.

Can't be Guilliman. The most well-rounded and organized loyal Primarch, he wasn't selected as Warmaster. This means that Horus, while also extremely well-rounded and organized, had special qualities that Roboute lacked. I would vote for sheer force of personality; he had his Father's charisma.

Honestly, I think Horus was obviously the most powerful. when he fell to Chaos, he took half of the Empire with him. That's power.

I voted for Magnus, however, as I thought the question was basically who wields the most power as an individual. Gotta be Magnus, as he's a giant warrior ANd a genius sorcerer.

Horus was not the most powerful UNTIL he fell to chaos, please remember do judge these based on up too chaos possession, the reason Sanguinius was defeated so easily was due to ALL FOUR DARK GODS possessing Horus.

the difference in Horus and Guilliman is simple, Horus was extremely charismatic, while Guilliman was stoic.

I like Dorn a lot, but, I agree he is not the most badass or powerful

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niexist wrote:
Ugin, the Owl King wrote:
Niexist wrote:
Really the only competition to Lion El'Johnson is Vulkan because he is the only one who could currently be alive, and not corrupted by chaos. Every single other primarch is either dead, or has been in the eye of terror for 10,000 years, so in all likelihood, 10k years in the eye of terror is going to turn them to chaos if they're not dead yet. There is only two loyal primarchs left alive in my head-cannon.

IIRC...

There are six loyal Primarchs who may still be alive.

Vulkan, missing and presumed dead,

Russ, lost in the Eye

Corax, lost in the Eye,

Khan, lost in the Webway,

Johnson, sleeping in the Rock,

Guilliman, sleeping in Macragge.

Of course, there are other mysteries, such as "what happened to Dorn?', etc. But I think the above are the most likely six to be alive. For the record, I haven't read Vulkan Lives, but (spoiler alert), I've heard that this isn't the point of the book at all.

In my head cannon lost in the eye = chaos corrupted if not dead, you're not spending 10,000 years in the eye of terror and coming out the same person. So Corax/Russ are dead at best, chaos corrupted at worst.

Khan is lost in the webway, and presumed to be dead. If he's not dead (highly unlikely as the Dark Eldar would would have let something slip in 10,000 years)he's a slave to the Dark Eldar, but I don't see him surviving in the 10,000 years in Commoragh.

Guilliman is poisoned and he'll be dead within minutes of coming out of that stasis pod, regardless of whether he's been healed or not. He is still poisoned, and as I understand it(correct me if I'm wrong, entirely possible.) That poison will kill him.

This leaves Vulkan, and the Lion

I disagree, Guilliman may be healing, we don't know, I doubt that they will kill him. don't know a lot about Khan. there are several instances of normal space marines spending years if not decades or centuries in the Eye of chaos and coming out unscathed, and actually stronger for it.

**Deadshot**

No, Guilliman is dead. He was frozen at the instant of death and is dead. Those who say he is healing (completely impossible, by the way) are pilgrims who have travelled decades and hundreds of light years to see a dead man, even a Primarch. These people are practically delirious by the time they see him.

**DarthOvious**

PredaKhaine wrote:

We've had this one before

Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson. If Russ beat Angron, Angron would've just got up and tried to kill him again. ADB even said that Angron lost and that the reason why he lost is that he doesn't understand that he lost.
Lorgar tried to point out that Angron lost but Angron wasn't having it.
I not saying Russ would win in a straight 1v1, but I don't think that fight was a reason to mark Russ down

ps:for the record, I didn't vote Russ either

I feel this needs to be clarrified more. The lesson that Russ was trying to teach Angron was the value of a legion. Its the one thing that Angron doesn't understand is how his legion is essential. Although Angron was standing over him claiming victory, Russ told him he that he didn't win because all the Space Wolves still had their bolters aimed at Angron. The point that Russ was making is that even if Angron was to kill him, he would still lose and die because his entire legion had their bolters pointed at Angron. So its insinuated here that Russ wasn't trying to beat Angron in the first place and what he did was deliberate.

**Haight**

Ugin, the Owl King wrote:
Niexist wrote:
Really the only competition to Lion El'Johnson is Vulkan because he is the only one who could currently be alive, and not corrupted by chaos. Every single other primarch is either dead, or has been in the eye of terror for 10,000 years, so in all likelihood, 10k years in the eye of terror is going to turn them to chaos if they're not dead yet. There is only two loyal primarchs left alive in my head-cannon.

IIRC...

There are six loyal Primarchs who may still be alive.

Vulkan, missing and presumed dead,

Russ, lost in the Eye

Corax, lost in the Eye,

Khan, lost in the Webway,

Johnson, sleeping in the Rock,

Guilliman, sleeping in Macragge.

Of course, there are other mysteries, such as "what happened to Dorn?', etc. But I think the above are the most likely six to be alive. For the record, I haven't read Vulkan Lives, but (spoiler alert), I've heard that this isn't the point of the book at all.

Wasn't Dorn killed boarding a chaos cruiser while he was suicidally outnumbered during the 1st Black Crusade, or something to that effect ?

EDIT: Ah, there's the typical "well no one knows for suuuuuuuuuureeee....." footnote to that tale, i see.

**PredaKhaine**

I got to thinking about this and I reckon its easier to pick separate primarchs for hardest, most powerful and most badass.

Hardest - Angron.
He lives to beat people down into the dust. In a physical match up,1vs1, (without using superpowers) I don't see Angron having an equal. Unless Sanguinius gets a bit more book time...

Most Powerful - Either Magnus or, weirdly, Russ.
Magnus has displayed the most power out of any of the primarchs so far - communing the length of space that he did to speak to the emp, crushing a titan with his mind etc. No other primarch has displayed that level. But as TheSaintofKillers pointed out earlier in the thread, Russ was anti psychic. How powerful an anti psyker must he be in order to stop Magnus using his titan crushing powers?
I think its worth thinking about.

Most badass - For me it has to be Curze. He's winning the primarch 'whuppometer' (Dorn, The Lion and Vulkan, he made Corax run away and in Unremebered Empire

Spoiler:

He's managed to turn flying rodent gak crazy into an artform. Almost all the primarchs he's fought beat him in the rematches when they realised he wasn't actually that hard, but the fact remains he's beaten the most opposing primarchs out of anyone so far. Somehow.
Did I mention he's madder than a bag of cats?

**BaconUprising**

Which primarchs has he beaten? Angeon has beaten 2. I can stake the feeling that Horus would win every 1v1. Coral said he was the strongest.