The most powerful Primarch

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**raiden**

Deadshot wrote:
No, Guilliman is dead. He was frozen at the instant of death and is dead. Those who say he is healing (completely impossible, by the way) are pilgrims who have travelled decades and hundreds of light years to see a dead man, even a Primarch. These people are practically delirious by the time they see him.

Such is the way of daemons, to lie and mislead.

**Ugin, the Owl King**

@ Niexist: There are no instances of a Primarch being corrupted by Chaos without voluntarily giving in. Also, there are examples of lesser SMs staying strong for significant lengths of time. Furthermore, time passes differently in the Warp. It's possible Russ will step out of the Warp tomorrow eating a burrito, wondering what the hell everyone is freaking out about.

@ raiden: I'm not arguing that Horus was stronger than Sanguinius because he beat him in a fight while corrupted by Chaos. I'm arguing that, pre-corruption, Horus was the most badass because he was willing to go to any lengths, even his own corruption, to achieve the power necessary to make his vision of the universe a reality. And, in addition to being one of the most well-rounded Primarchs, he also had his Father's charisma and leadership abilities. No man, save, the Emperor, had that kind of power.

**raiden**

correct me if I am wrong but if I recall correctly I believe Horus had very little say so in the matter of his possession. It is also stated that Horus, while powerful, was selected warmaster due to his charisma (which some say outshone the emperors) and his ability to get people to work together. not saying he wasn't badass though. I mean, if you can make the IF and IW get a long, heh, good onya..

**Ugin, the Owl King**

No. Horus was deceived and manipulated, but he ultimately chose to serve the Ruinous Powers. I suppose you could argue that he was not responsible for a decision predicated upon falsehoods, but he could have simply not given in and the HH as we know it would not have happened.

**Kain**

In terms of power, Magnus takes the cake. His sheer potency as a psyker and a sorcerer pretty much renders everyone else's talents meaningless in the face of firepower of that magnitude.

As a pure fighter, Sanguinus is the best with Angron and Horus being behind him. Angron would probably beat Horus in a fight if he got the drop on him or at least hold the advantage in a melee if neither has the element of surprise, while I'm certain that Snguinus would win in a fight against either barring unusually favorable circumstances.

**orkybenji**

Why no option for Legion II's primarch or Legion XI's?

**BaconUprising**

Kain wrote:
In terms of power, Magnus takes the cake. His sheer potency as a psyker and a sorcerer pretty much renders everyone else's talents meaningless in the face of firepower of that magnitude.

As a pure fighter, Sanguinus is the best with Angron and Horus being behind him. Angron would probably beat Horus in a fight if he got the drop on him or at least hold the advantage in a melee if neither has the element of surprise, while I'm certain that Snguinus would win in a fight against either barring unusually favorable circumstances.

Yeah I think most people are in agreement that a fully focused Magnus would beat everyone else. I really don't see Sangunius beating Hours though, even pre heresy. Corax believed that Angron was the most powerful in a 1v1 except for Horus and Sanguinus who would beat him. But he thought that Horus was unquestionably the most powerful.

**Amoras**

DarthOvious wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:

We've had this one before

Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson. If Russ beat Angron, Angron would've just got up and tried to kill him again. ADB even said that Angron lost and that the reason why he lost is that he doesn't understand that he lost.
Lorgar tried to point out that Angron lost but Angron wasn't having it.
I not saying Russ would win in a straight 1v1, but I don't think that fight was a reason to mark Russ down

ps:for the record, I didn't vote Russ either

I feel this needs to be clarrified more. The lesson that Russ was trying to teach Angron was the value of a legion. Its the one thing that Angron doesn't understand is how his legion is essential. Although Angron was standing over him claiming victory, Russ told him he that he didn't win because all the Space Wolves still had their bolters aimed at Angron. The point that Russ was making is that even if Angron was to kill him, he would still lose and die because his entire legion had their bolters pointed at Angron. So its insinuated here that Russ wasn't trying to beat Angron in the first place and what he did was deliberate.

If that was the lesson i'd say he failed badly.
Angron didn't learn from it it only showed him his way beat the wolfs, The world eaters where slaughtering the wolves all around had the fight gone on the wolves would have lost it even if angron died ( which i seriously doubt a few bolters could do seeing the stuff he survives later on ).

Its been a while since i read betrayer but didn't Angron say they killed hundreds of space wolves that day, thats a steep price to pay for a lesson.
As for the poll Magnus is the most powerfull.
Horus if you count the chaos gods superjuicing him.

**BaconUprising**

DarthOvious wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:

We've had this one before

Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson. If Russ beat Angron, Angron would've just got up and tried to kill him again. ADB even said that Angron lost and that the reason why he lost is that he doesn't understand that he lost.
Lorgar tried to point out that Angron lost but Angron wasn't having it.
I not saying Russ would win in a straight 1v1, but I don't think that fight was a reason to mark Russ down

ps:for the record, I didn't vote Russ either

I feel this needs to be clarrified more. The lesson that Russ was trying to teach Angron was the value of a legion. Its the one thing that Angron doesn't understand is how his legion is essential. Although Angron was standing over him claiming victory, Russ told him he that he didn't win because all the Space Wolves still had their bolters aimed at Angron. The point that Russ was making is that even if Angron was to kill him, he would still lose and die because his entire legion had their bolters pointed at Angron. So its insinuated here that Russ wasn't trying to beat Angron in the first place and what he did was deliberate.

Russ threw himself at Angron. He initiated the duel. He then lost. There was a lesson to be taught but Russ obviously lost the lesson plan and got munched for it...

**Deadshot**

If we take Magnus's psyker powers into account, can we also take into account that for a time, between the sequences in Betrayer, the World Eater/Word Bearer invasion of Ultramar, rouhhly just after Calth, and the Siege of Terra, Angron was the first and at the time, only, Daemon Primarch and hence, the only one that can be conaidered immortal? So is he therefore not the most powerful at thay point?

**PandaMango141**

raiden wrote:
Ugin, the Owl King wrote:
Lobukia wrote:
Can't be Horus, for all his gifts, he was a moral weakling, easily manipulated and led like a dog on the hunt

Can't be Angron, he could not progress beyond the single dimension that defined him

Can't be Mortarion, inability to see the bigger truth that he was saved from being wasted, and in turn became that which he hated most

Can't be Russ, he is the ultimate errand boy and axe man, but never aspired to more

Can't be Lorgar, that sad piece of filth's only bold move was betrayal. Locking him in as the cross between Loki and Commodos that he is

Can't be Fulgrim, his weakness was so easily turned as for it to be almost laughable in its malleability.

Can't be Vulcan, for all his ability he lacked the drive to succeed that defines all great ones

Can't be Corax, his shame led to failures. An inability to cope with setbacks removes him from play

Can't be Konrad, that damaged psyche could barely handle being, let alone doing

Can't be Peturabo his anger and resentment harnessed him to a sled of bitterness and limited his ability to achieve

Can't be Ferrus, like so many of his siblings, great offences and challenges gave him tunnel vision with fatal consequences

Can't be Magnus, the Adonis to Tzeentch's Artemis

Can't be the Lion whose hubris showed him a paper tiger

Can't be Khan, a noble loaner who could not aspire to challenges outside the Great Hunt

Can't be Alpharius Omegon who reasoned themselves into fruitless betrayals and overreached trying to legitimize their losing horse in the Cabal's stable

I see only Sanguinius: able to stare the end of immortality down and risk it all to save all

Or Dorn, his father's castellan and loyal commander of good in defiance of evil

Or Guilliman, whose accolades, successes and laurels outshine them all... And with the humility to walk away from the seductive siren of power when he had the Imperium as his realm.

Very eloquent and insightful. To play devil's advocate, however...

Can't be Sanguinius, as he was defeated in mortal combat by another Primarch. Perhaps he had the courage to sacrifice his life for loyalty, but he lacked the audacity to seek power at any cost.

Can't be Dorn; the best defense is a good offense, but no one ever says the reverse.

Can't be Guilliman. The most well-rounded and organized loyal Primarch, he wasn't selected as Warmaster. This means that Horus, while also extremely well-rounded and organized, had special qualities that Roboute lacked. I would vote for sheer force of personality; he had his Father's charisma.

Honestly, I think Horus was obviously the most powerful. when he fell to Chaos, he took half of the Empire with him. That's power.

I voted for Magnus, however, as I thought the question was basically who wields the most power as an individual. Gotta be Magnus, as he's a giant warrior ANd a genius sorcerer.

Horus was not the most powerful UNTIL he fell to chaos, please remember do judge these based on up too chaos possession, the reason Sanguinius was defeated so easily was due to ALL FOUR DARK GODS possessing Horus.

the difference in Horus and Guilliman is simple, Horus was extremely charismatic, while Guilliman was stoic.

I like Dorn a lot, but, I agree he is not the most badass or powerful

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Niexist wrote:
Ugin, the Owl King wrote:
Niexist wrote:
Really the only competition to Lion El'Johnson is Vulkan because he is the only one who could currently be alive, and not corrupted by chaos. Every single other primarch is either dead, or has been in the eye of terror for 10,000 years, so in all likelihood, 10k years in the eye of terror is going to turn them to chaos if they're not dead yet. There is only two loyal primarchs left alive in my head-cannon.

IIRC...

There are six loyal Primarchs who may still be alive.

Vulkan, missing and presumed dead,

Russ, lost in the Eye

Corax, lost in the Eye,

Khan, lost in the Webway,

Johnson, sleeping in the Rock,

Guilliman, sleeping in Macragge.

Of course, there are other mysteries, such as "what happened to Dorn?', etc. But I think the above are the most likely six to be alive. For the record, I haven't read Vulkan Lives, but (spoiler alert), I've heard that this isn't the point of the book at all.

In my head cannon lost in the eye = chaos corrupted if not dead, you're not spending 10,000 years in the eye of terror and coming out the same person. So Corax/Russ are dead at best, chaos corrupted at worst.

Khan is lost in the webway, and presumed to be dead. If he's not dead (highly unlikely as the Dark Eldar would would have let something slip in 10,000 years)he's a slave to the Dark Eldar, but I don't see him surviving in the 10,000 years in Commoragh.

Guilliman is poisoned and he'll be dead within minutes of coming out of that stasis pod, regardless of whether he's been healed or not. He is still poisoned, and as I understand it(correct me if I'm wrong, entirely possible.) That poison will kill him.

This leaves Vulkan, and the Lion

I disagree, Guilliman may be healing, we don't know, I doubt that they will kill him. don't know a lot about Khan. there are several instances of normal space marines spending years if not decades or centuries in the Eye of chaos and coming out unscathed, and actually stronger for it.

If I recall time is not linear in the warp. So Russ may have been in the warp for 30 of his years, yet 10,000 will have passed in the materium.

**Niexist**

I think being "in the warp" is different than being in the eye of terror. The warp is the dangerous thing they use for travel while the eye of terror is a physical manifestation of the warp. Meaning that time is literal, unlike the fallen which are stuck in the warp.

Not 100% sure but this is how I understand it.

**Deadshot**

No, they are the same. The Eye of Terror is what happens when the Warp pushes through to the matierial universe. Time flows differently in both. That's why you can use Warp Travel. A journey of 1000 years takes only a few days. But it goes the other way as well and what seems a 2 day blip may be in reality, centuries or even millenia (see Darnath Lysander).

**Kain**

Deadshot wrote:
No, they are the same. The Eye of Terror is what happens when the Warp pushes through to the matierial universe. Time flows differently in both. That's why you can use Warp Travel. A journey of 1000 years takes only a few days. But it goes the other way as well and what seems a 2 day blip may be in reality, centuries or even millenia (see Darnath Lysander).

While not entirely true (the Eye of terror and other warp storms still show their material heritage and aren't quite as "dreamlike" as the warp is) you did get warp storm afflicted areas not having a necessarily linear flow of time correctly. As for the warp, time doesn't really exist relative to the materium, you're just dropped off whenever or even before you ever left, even if you've taken every possible precaution.

**PredaKhaine**

BaconUprising wrote:
DarthOvious wrote:
PredaKhaine wrote:

We've had this one before

Russ was trying to teach Angron a lesson. If Russ beat Angron, Angron would've just got up and tried to kill him again. ADB even said that Angron lost and that the reason why he lost is that he doesn't understand that he lost.
Lorgar tried to point out that Angron lost but Angron wasn't having it.
I not saying Russ would win in a straight 1v1, but I don't think that fight was a reason to mark Russ down

ps:for the record, I didn't vote Russ either

I feel this needs to be clarrified more. The lesson that Russ was trying to teach Angron was the value of a legion. Its the one thing that Angron doesn't understand is how his legion is essential. Although Angron was standing over him claiming victory, Russ told him he that he didn't win because all the Space Wolves still had their bolters aimed at Angron. The point that Russ was making is that even if Angron was to kill him, he would still lose and die because his entire legion had their bolters pointed at Angron. So its insinuated here that Russ wasn't trying to beat Angron in the first place and what he did was deliberate.
Russ threw himself at Angron. He initiated the duel. He then lost. There was a lesson to be taught but Russ obviously lost the lesson plan and got munched for it...

The lesson was that if Russ wanted Angron dead, then Angron would be dead. He'd have been shot to death by bolters and his Legion wouldn't have saved him as they didn't care. Russ's point was the 'united we stand, divided we fall' lesson. Its not his fault Angron was too stupid to learn it

But equally from that, we know Russ wasn't trying to kill Angron in the fight - he was holding back. Russ didn't need to kill Angron, he only needed to isolate him to prove his point. If Russ had killed Angron, he'd have had to go and explain to the Emperor exactly what he'd done and would probably have faced sanctions.
We haven't seen a straight fight between Russ and Angron.
We've seen Angron fight Guilliman where Lorgar interfered, We saw Angron fight Russ where Russ wasn't fighting 100%.
We've only seen Russ seriously fight Magnus, where we saw him beat Magnus (who's widely accepted to be the most powerful primarch)

I'm not saying Russ would win, but we didn't see a straight fight between Angron and Russ, so I don't believe we can use that as a reference.

Russ (and by extension, the wolves) main power appears to be doing whatever is needed to win the current event, with examples ranging from attacking an impregnable base by dropping a space station on it, to about 10 of the wolves defeating an entire Dark Eldar raiding fleet...

**Amoras**

We've only seen Russ seriously fight Magnus, where we saw him beat Magnus (who's widely accepted to be the most powerful primarch)

I'm not saying Russ would win, but we didn't see a straight fight between Angron and Russ, so I don't believe we can use that as a reference.

For the same reason we can't use Russ vs Magnus as a reference as Magnus was at his very worst and the situation heavily favoured the wolf.

**PredaKhaine**

But Magnus and Russ were both fighting to kill.

(personally, I think the situation favoured Magnus - Magnus can kill titans with his mind. How can he not be favourite in any battle he's in?

)

Russ wasn't trying to kill Angron. At no point have I said Russ beat Angron or that Angron wouldn't be perfectly capable of winning even if Russ was fighting at 100%.
It's like claiming that someone won in boxing because his opponant took a dive. Technically, they win the prize, but you never know how it would've played out if they'd been left to it.

**Lemartes12**

ok here is the end all.... SANGUINUS CAN FLY WITHOUT A JUMP PACK. So everyone except Maybe Magus (remember PRE-HERESY) can just stew on the ground until Sanguinus drops in on them.

**PredaKhaine**

I don't think that just because Sanguinius can fly means he auto wins.

Massively psychic and incredibly skilled in arms, with the power of a raging berzerker to boot would probably give him an advantage though

I don't think we've seen enough in the books to compare him though. He's not even in 30k yet.
But I've no doubt, that when he is, he'll be a beast.

**Lemartes12**

PredaKhaine wrote:
I don't think that just because Sanguinius can fly means he auto wins.

Massively psychic and incredibly skilled in arms, with the power of a raging berzerker to boot would probably give him an advantage though

I don't think we've seen enough in the books to compare him though. He's not even in 30k yet.
But I've no doubt, that when he is, he'll be a beast.

Honestly i think his rage is worse than Angorn's, he just has the willpower to fight it.

**PredaKhaine**

Most of the time he keeps his temper - theres some fluff about him throwing a wobbly on Baal when he was growing up.

Warhammerwikia wrote:
When a wandering band of Baalite mutants surprised his tribe, Sanguinius slew them all single-handedly, although they numbered over a hundred. This was the first time the members of The Blood had ever seen the Angel truly angry, for he felt his comrades' lives were in danger. When the blood-rage overtook him he was indeed terrible to behold. The full powers of a Primarch came upon him and a nimbus of light played about his head.

Ka-bandha managed to annoy Sanguinius too by killing his men and look how that played out...

Also warhammerwikia wrote:
During the Battle of Terra, the vile Bloodthirster Ka'Bhanda once again confronted Sanguinius, this time, atop the Eternity Gate before the Emperor's throne room. The Greater Daemon struck Sanguinius, casting the angel upon the broken stone. Preparing to strike a killing blow, the Blood Angels' Primarch called upon his last reserves of strength and power. With a massive effort, he leapt upon the Bloodthirster, seized it about the wrist and ankle and rose up high into the air, smashing the daemon's form across his knee and breaking the creature's back with a powerful crack. He then swung the body of Ka'Bandha around and hurled the broken behemoth into the midst of the daemonic host, slamming the Eternity Gate shut against the ravening hordes

**Dr.Desastro**

It is either "Robert Gulliman" or "Roboute Guillaume" AFAIK...*sigh*
And I guess he is the greatest strategist besides the emperor and the most humane.

**PredaKhaine**

I'd go for Roboute Guilliman

**Ugin, the Owl King**

Part of the problem is that we haven't really defined our terms satisfactorily (i.e. - what is power?). I argued for Horus, as he was powerful enough to virtually destroy the IoM, but I voted for Magnus, because I think he would be able to beat virtually all of his brothers in a fight (save Russ, for reasons discussed - but I don't think that makes Russ "more powerful," just better in that match-up).

Another way to phrase the question would be, "Which Primarch, based on their pre-Heresy fluff, should cost the most points?". I would have to say Magnus, as again, he would beat everyone save Russ in a fight. However, there is still the context of leadership abilities. You could argue that Horus on the battlefield would inspire such loyalty from his troops that he should have expensive special rules.

**Wolf Lord Kevin**

I still back Russ. Though on a matter of points cost for a game...Yeah I can see Horus costing a lot along with Magnus

**Kain**

Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
I still back Russ. Though on a matter of points cost for a game...Yeah I can see Horus costing a lot along with Magnus

Actually some of the Primarchs already have stats from Forgeworld. And yes, Horus costs a ton.

**Wolf Lord Kevin**

Kain wrote:

Actually some of the Primarchs already have stats from Forgeworld. And yes, Horus costs a ton.

I heard about this but haven't seen it yet :( Friend of mine showed me an image of Horus and Angron's stats and gear etc but I would like to see em all especially Russ'

**Kain**

Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Kain wrote:

Actually some of the Primarchs already have stats from Forgeworld. And yes, Horus costs a ton.

I heard about this but haven't seen it yet :( Friend of mine showed me an image of Horus and Angron's stats and gear etc but I would like to see em all especially Russ'

I'm sure everyone will get their time in the soon enough.

**Wolf Lord Kevin**

Kain wrote:
Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Kain wrote:

Actually some of the Primarchs already have stats from Forgeworld. And yes, Horus costs a ton.

I heard about this but haven't seen it yet :( Friend of mine showed me an image of Horus and Angron's stats and gear etc but I would like to see em all especially Russ'

I'm sure everyone will get their time in the soon enough.

Can't wait to see all the Primarchs get their own models....I still want get my hands on the really awesome looking Russ one but seeing Forge World do one is going to be so awesome o-o Fulgrim and Angron look so beast!

**Kain**

Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Kain wrote:
Wolf Lord Kevin wrote:
Kain wrote:

Actually some of the Primarchs already have stats from Forgeworld. And yes, Horus costs a ton.

I heard about this but haven't seen it yet :( Friend of mine showed me an image of Horus and Angron's stats and gear etc but I would like to see em all especially Russ'

I'm sure everyone will get their time in the soon enough.

Can't wait to see all the Primarchs get their own models....I still want get my hands on the really awesome looking Russ one but seeing Forge World do one is going to be so awesome o-o Fulgrim and Angron look so beast!

I'm sure the Space wolves will also get a pretty nice "unique unit" for their legion too.