So forgeworld has dropped the new 107 Rules:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/R/Rvarna.pdf

Seems pretty absurd, With nova charge it can put out a comfortable 12 S8 AP3 wounds on an MC or vehicle and anything close, Has a 4+ natural invul from shooting and +1t and W from a regular riptide, losing only Jet status and secondary weapons. But being able to put out 4 AP3 large blasts for ~70 pts more than a riptide with multiple wounds against some units seems crazy.

What are your takes on it?

There is an entire three page thread about this already.

I love the look of the gun, hate the rules for them. I expect them to go through some serious revisions before they become 40k approved.

Where did you get the idea it can put out 12 S8 AP3 wounds on an MC or vehicle comfortably? From the rules I read it can put out 12 shots comfortably. With BS3 Scatter, it will probably maybe only hit 2-3 of them, and then needs to roll to wound, so you are looking at 5-8 wounds on average perhaps, not 12.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Where did you get the idea it can put out 12 S8 AP3 wounds on an MC or vehicle comfortably? From the rules I read it can put out 12 shots comfortably. With BS3 Scatter, it will probably maybe only hit 2-3 of them, and then needs to roll to wound, so you are looking at 5-8 wounds on average perhaps, not 12.

Overreactive Math. Assume the most broken combination, exaggerate the probability, come to a crazy conclusion.

The gist in the other thread at least is that it will become the new home for O'Vesa and the Buffmander.

With a lack of gets hot and an effective -2.5 on scatter (5" blast) and the size of vehicles it wouldnt be even close to a stretch to consider all 4 blasts hitting a vehicle.

Jakobokaj wrote:
With a lack of gets hot and an effective -2.5 on scatter (5" blast) and the size of vehicles it wouldnt be even close to a stretch to consider all 4 blasts hitting a vehicle.

Yet you assume it will pass its NOVA Reactor test.

i cant tell if that gun is broken or meh lol. Sounds crazy but its 260pts for that thing, and its AP3 so no anti-termie or bonus vehicle pen damage.

The model is so damn scary though lol.

Interesting its a Heavy choice instead of Elite, but theres no way someone is going to field 6 "Riptides" because of this lol. It would cost 1350pts for all 6 with only IA and EWO upgrades on the riptides. Not much room left for markerlights/troops/HQs lol

 Vineheart01 wrote:
i cant tell if that gun is broken or meh lol. Sounds crazy but its 260pts for that thing, and its AP3 so no anti-termie or bonus vehicle pen damage.

The model is so damn scary though lol.

Interesting its a Heavy choice instead of Elite, but theres no way someone is going to field 6 "Riptides" because of this lol. It would cost 1350pts for all 6 with only IA and EWO upgrades on the riptides. Not much room left for markerlights/troops/HQs lol

It has +1w, +1t, and a 4++ over standard riptides. Of course it's OP...

Slotting it into heavy means it doesn't even have to compete with riptides for FOC spots.

I'm extremely anti-FW for tournaments, and this unit is a dealbreaker for me. Unless you like gundam-40k and want to see armies with 4-8 riptides across from you.

Even if a tournament allows FW, the rules are still experimental. I highly doubt any tournament would allow experimental rules.

Right. But while the statline, weapons, and cost may change post-experimental phase, the heavy support designation is equally influential, perhaps even more so.

All I gotta say is FW better give Nids some serious love next year.

They should have named it the 108 R'Varna for maximum Tau = Asian references. Then given it the True Rune of Water and some power-tonfas.

And chaos daemons! Please.... well actually anything not pre-heresy. I dunno miss some of the goods! FW is fine in tournaments... that being said I personally feel that this, at the moment, could very possibly be broken. I can't say defenitively of course but it seems probable.

Consider this with an ethereal

in theory they could increase it to 8 large blasts

So any vehicle could get hit with, in theory, 24 str 8 shots? or any MC with 24 str 8 ap 3 shots?

toughness 7, with flechette (everything that charges into it BtB gets hit with a str 4 ap - hit?)

oh yeah and it still has a haywire nova effect if it needs too... and it's heavy so easily 6 now. with EWO

this thing can out damage a full missile side set, is more durable, and costs about the same.

yeah, it's super duper uber broken. it should be like 320 points.

 hyv3mynd wrote:
Unless you like gundam-40k and want to see armies with 4-8 riptides across from you.

You mean kind of like how no-FW games already work? Tau can already take as many Riptides and crisis suits as the point limit will allow, moving one or two of them to heavy support just lets you take more stealth suits (lol).


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Largo39 wrote:
in theory they could increase it to 8 large blasts

If you can somehow convince your opponent that the Ethereal's ability applies to a weapon that isn't listed under "pulse weapons" in the codex. And I can almost guarantee you that if they ever FAQ it the answer will be "no, of course you can't do something that obviously stupid".

So any vehicle could get hit with, in theory, 24 str 8 shots? or any MC with 24 str 8 ap 3 shots?

So let's assume that it magically rolls nothing but hits with those guns?

with flechette (everything that charges into it BtB gets hit with a str 4 ap - hit?)

So what? Anything that's going to charge a Riptide is going to laugh at STR 4 AP -, and a normal Riptide is probably going to do more damage with its overwatch. The flechettes are purely a fluff thing.

oh yeah and it still has a haywire nova effect if it needs too... and it's heavy so easily 6 now. with EWO

You mean the haywire effect that requires you to give up a 3++ or double shots with the main guns? Yeah, I can see people making that choice all the time...

this thing can out damage a full missile side set, is more durable, and costs about the same.

So can pretty much anything if you assume you're playing with loaded dice and always hit with every shot.

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Where did you get the idea it can put out 12 S8 AP3 wounds on an MC or vehicle comfortably? From the rules I read it can put out 12 shots comfortably. With BS3 Scatter, it will probably maybe only hit 2-3 of them, and then needs to roll to wound, so you are looking at 5-8 wounds on average perhaps, not 12.

It only ever makes 4 shots, each shot that hits a MC does 3 hits.

center all 4 Large blasts over the MCs and 1/3 are outright hits. then the blast can scatter 2.5" in any direction with the edge of the marker still in the center of the MC. add in the BS3 and you have a roll of 6 or less to still clip a 28 mm base(which is a hit); but MCs are on the largest bases(dread base, or oval) which adds at least another inch of scatter. That is 7" of scatter in any direction; that is 21 in 36 chance to still land your scattering large blast on target(or 58.33333%). Now we add together the fact that that is only 58% of 66%; which leads you to an overall 72.222% chance to get 3 hits per blast marker, or basically a 2/3(roughly) chance to have all 4 land for 12 hits.

This thing looks like it got lost on the way to Pacific Rim. The rules are too good for the points cost as well.

Whilst I'm probably going to get this, just for the kick ass model, I'm not 100% sold on the rules as they are, and its currently in heavy, which as an Enclave Player, I would have prefered it stay in elite, but what can you do?

Who cares its forge world. Stuffs not supposed to be balanced its supposed to be fun and awesome. Regular codexes are for balance.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Now we add together the fact that that is only 58% of 66%; which leads you to an overall 72.222% chance to get 3 hits per blast marker, or basically a 2/3(roughly) chance to have all 4 land for 12 hits.

Your math is completely wrong. If each shot has a 72% chance of hitting a MC then you have a 27% chance of hitting with all four shots.


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 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Who cares its forge world. Stuffs not supposed to be balanced its supposed to be fun and awesome. Regular codexes are for balance.

Err, lol? Since when have codices been balanced?

Jakobokaj wrote:
So forgeworld has dropped the new 107 Rules:

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/R/Rvarna.pdf

Seems pretty absurd, With nova charge it can put out a comfortable 12 S8 AP3 wounds on an MC or vehicle and anything close, Has a 4+ natural invul from shooting and +1t and W from a regular riptide, losing only Jet status and secondary weapons. But being able to put out 4 AP3 large blasts for ~70 pts more than a riptide with multiple wounds against some units seems crazy.

What are your takes on it?

Sure you get +1T, +1 W, and +1 invunerable against shooting for no secondary weapon +1 AP, the inability to fire non-blasts (meaning no threat to fliers), and loses the ability to JSJ for +80 pts to the base cost. I'd say drop the increase in S against large targets (as extra hits are more than enough) and it would be fairly balanced as an anti-infantry unit. Also FW really needs learn how shooting works before it writes rules as a mixed unit clause seems very neccessary for cluster fire.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Who cares its forge world. Stuffs not supposed to be balanced its supposed to be fun and awesome. Regular codexes are for balance.

Yeah ok, as opposed to
Helldrakes
Vendettas
Riptides
Wave Serpents
Dark Talon/Nephilim
Tau Codex Flyers
Hemlock Wraithfighter

If anything, FW is (slightly) more balanced than GW

 Tarrasq wrote:
I'd say drop the increase in S against large targets (as extra hits are more than enough) and it would be fairly balanced as an anti-infantry unit.

The increase in strength is necessary to make it at least worth attempting to shoot at vehicles occasionally. STR 8 isn't very good, but STR 6 effectively says "infantry only". If anything I'd keep the strength increase (and even make it bigger) and remove the extra hits, having the fluff of "bigger targets get hit more" represented by the better chance to wound/pen.

Also FW really needs learn how shooting works before it writes rules as a mixed unit clause seems very neccessary for cluster fire.

Actually it works just fine. The increased hits are done for each model hit. Mixed units don't require any special rules, if the template is over a 'small' model it's one hit, if it's over a 'big' model it's multiple hits.

It's the first anti-White Scars unit

Bikes are very bulky, so triple the number of hits you get against a bike unit. This will kill any bike unit you care to name every turn, pretty much guaranteed.

as if bikes needed to be easier to kill.

As this unit is a heavy support choice in Codex: Tau Empires; Can I choose to take it as a heavy support in my Farsight Enclaves supplement.

Then, I assume taking a ECPA (Good old Builders!) is a given, given the awesome potential for Nova ripple fire carnage.

Just a thought?

Edit: Does the automatic hit from its Haywire Ground Stomp hit flyers..? I know snap shooting and weapons that do not roll to hit, can't target a flyer but with an automatic hit? Cheers

Razerous wrote:
As this unit is a heavy support choice in Codex: Tau Empires; Can I choose to take it as a heavy support in my Farsight Enclaves supplement.

Then, I assume taking a ECPA (Good old Builders!) is a given, given the awesome potential for Nova ripple fire carnage.

Just a thought?

Edit: Does the automatic hit from its Haywire Ground Stomp hit flyers..? I know snap shooting and weapons that do not roll to hit, can't target a flyer but with an automatic hit? Cheers

Probably not, I believe there was a FAQ for autohit things don't hit fliers as they don't roll to hit.
But I could be wrong.

Razerous wrote:
As this unit is a heavy support choice in Codex: Tau Empires; Can I choose to take it as a heavy support in my Farsight Enclaves supplement.

Yes, because the Farsight supplement explicitly says that it uses the normal Tau army list except for the specific changes it makes.

Then, I assume taking a ECPA (Good old Builders!) is a given, given the awesome potential for Nova ripple fire carnage.

No, because the R'Varna is not a Riptide and the Farsight supplement only gives Riptides the ability to take the special systems (including the ECPA), not Riptides and anything vaguely similar to a Riptide that you want to take them on.

 Peregrine wrote:

Razerous wrote:
As this unit is a heavy support choice in Codex: Tau Empires; Can I choose to take it as a heavy support in my Farsight Enclaves supplement.

Yes, because the Farsight supplement explicitly says that it uses the normal Tau army list except for the specific changes it makes.

Then, I assume taking a ECPA (Good old Builders!) is a given, given the awesome potential for Nova ripple fire carnage.

No, because the R'Varna is not a Riptide and the Farsight supplement only gives Riptides the ability to take the special systems (including the ECPA), not Riptides and anything vaguely similar to a Riptide that you want to take them on.

Gotcha - its not a Riptide VX108... It's a different (but similiar) unit the XV107.

Cool, would've been terribad.

Yeah ok, as opposed to
Helldrakes
Vendettas
Riptides
Wave Serpents
Dark Talon/Nephilim
Tau Codex Flyers
Hemlock Wraithfighter

If anything, FW is (slightly) more balanced than GW

I mean, Drakes, Vendettas, Riptides, and Serpents are all great units, but DA, Tau, and Eldar flyers? Come on. The former stuff is overly efficient for the cost, but you seem to just have a problem with flyers. If anything, DA, Tau, and Eldar flyers are overcosted.

 JGrand wrote:
I mean, Drakes, Vendettas, Riptides, and Serpents are all great units, but DA, Tau, and Eldar flyers? Come on. The former stuff is overly efficient for the cost, but you seem to just have a problem with flyers. If anything, DA, Tau, and Eldar flyers are overcosted.

That's exactly the point. GW publishes blatantly overpowered units, and units that are so weak you can't imagine how GW thought anyone would use them. They clearly have no clue how to balance the game and/or no interest in even trying. FW has their own balance issues, but it's absurd to say they're any worse than GW's consistent pattern of awful balance.

since when does riptide`s bs matter? if I`ll ever shot something as powerful as this, at least 4-6 markers to increase its bs will be like mandatory.

The increase in strength is necessary to make it at least worth attempting to shoot at vehicles occasionally. STR 8 isn't very good, but STR 6 effectively says "infantry only". If anything I'd keep the strength increase (and even make it bigger) and remove the extra hits, having the fluff of "bigger targets get hit more" represented by the better chance to wound/pen.

Which is exactly my point, there is no need for the unit to be good against everything.

Actually it works just fine. The increased hits are done for each model hit. Mixed units don't require any special rules, if the template is over a 'small' model it's one hit, if it's over a 'big' model it's multiple hits.

The problem is that you don't hit models (except for single model units), you hit units. And the weapon rule doesn't say that the model under the template generates the extra hits, it says the model that suffers the hits. Then you have the issue of the differing strength values in the same unit.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:
Where did you get the idea it can put out 12 S8 AP3 wounds on an MC or vehicle comfortably? From the rules I read it can put out 12 shots comfortably. With BS3 Scatter, it will probably maybe only hit 2-3 of them, and then needs to roll to wound, so you are looking at 5-8 wounds on average perhaps, not 12.

It only ever makes 4 shots, each shot that hits a MC does 3 hits.

center all 4 Large blasts over the MCs and 1/3 are outright hits. then the blast can scatter 2.5" in any direction with the edge of the marker still in the center of the MC. add in the BS3 and you have a roll of 6 or less to still clip a 28 mm base(which is a hit); but MCs are on the largest bases(dread base, or oval) which adds at least another inch of scatter. That is 7" of scatter in any direction; that is 21 in 36 chance to still land your scattering large blast on target(or 58.33333%). Now we add together the fact that that is only 58% of 66%; which leads you to an overall 72.222% chance to get 3 hits per blast marker, or basically a 2/3(roughly) chance to have all 4 land for 12 hits.

And if it is a 2/3 chance of 4 hits then the average is somewhere between 2-3 hits which is exactly what I said. Your post in no way invalidates mine, it just goes into more detail. It also doesn't account for wound rolls and Nova Reactor. So I'm still waiting for somebody to show me how it comfortably gets 12 wounds, which was the claim the OP made.

 Tarrasq wrote:
Which is exactly my point, there is no need for the unit to be good against everything.

It isn't all that good against vehicles, and really wouldn't with my proposed change. Spamming krak missiles is only effective when it's cheap, with this thing you're paying 300 points for those shots. It's a dedicated infantry killer that can occasionally shoot at a vehicle if you really need to.

The problem is that you don't hit models (except for single model units), you hit units. And the weapon rule doesn't say that the model under the template generates the extra hits, it says the model that suffers the hits. Then you have the issue of the differing strength values in the same unit.

The rules for the gun explicitly say "model", not "unit". You can argue about it RAW, but RAI it very clearly means that you determine how many hits and at what strength based on the individual models under the template.


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stargazer093 wrote:
since when does riptide`s bs matter? if I`ll ever shot something as powerful as this, at least 4-6 markers to increase its bs will be like mandatory.

Ok, so now you're making it even more expensive. You might effectively auto-kill a target (but don't forget you only have a 2/3 chance of getting two shots per gun no matter how high you make its BS), but when you're spending 3-400 points (or more) it would be pretty bad if you didn't.

 BeefCakeSoup wrote:
Who cares its forge world. Stuffs not supposed to be balanced its supposed to be fun and awesome. Regular codexes are for balance.

Waho there! I think you might want to look at the codices again. SoB at high point costs totally are balanced against other armies, the internal balance of CSM and IG (and many others) is totally up there, BA are neck in' neck with SM. Let's be honest, the codices are anything but balanced. And really.... Forge World stuff is fun. Heck how can you say who cares? Certain people play armies entirely dependent upon them. Also whilst it is supposed to be fun and awesome (sounds like the codices), they are actually arguably more underpowered than anything else.

Imho i think FW units arent OP (except for experimental rules). I own 3 because I like the models (stormeagle, achilles and tyberos) and I like to field them in fun lists, but otherwise in a competitive list I pass on them (maybe the LR achilles, but with the new codex, I can take TFCs now which is better). They are balanced enough compared with the codex units. I'd explain why i think they are not as OP at first tlance if anyone asks.

Simply put theyre cool models, but no necessarily OP. And to weight in, that suit with the experimental rules are OP right now but i am confident that when the printed rules come out it will be more balanced along with a lot of FW units. Wont be the first time they release something crazy and dial it back after release.

 Peregrine wrote:

 JGrand wrote:
I mean, Drakes, Vendettas, Riptides, and Serpents are all great units, but DA, Tau, and Eldar flyers? Come on. The former stuff is overly efficient for the cost, but you seem to just have a problem with flyers. If anything, DA, Tau, and Eldar flyers are overcosted.

That's exactly the point. GW publishes blatantly overpowered units, and units that are so weak you can't imagine how GW thought anyone would use them. They clearly have no clue how to balance the game and/or no interest in even trying. FW has their own balance issues, but it's absurd to say they're any worse than GW's consistent pattern of awful balance.

Pretty much this, the poster I quoted stated that FW had balance issues and I responding, quoting units that demonstrate the GW is even worse, pointing out units that are fantastic for their cost and units that are terrible and would only ever take if you really loved the model or wanted to handicap yourself.

 Tarrasq wrote:

Actually it works just fine. The increased hits are done for each model hit. Mixed units dn't require any special rules, if the template is over a 'small' model it's one hit, if it's over a 'big' model it's multiple hits.

The problem is that you don't hit models (except for single model units), you hit units. And the weapon rule doesn't say that the model under the template generates the extra hits, it says the model that suffers the hits. Then you have the issue of the differing strength values in the same unit.

Since the weapons are Large Blasts, you just look under the template to see what you hit, then add wounds as needed. Feels weird through.

EDIT: Wouldn't you simple put the different strengths in wound pools like AP and doll them out just the same?

you do hit models when the rules call for it.

Its like templates and swarm models. Any model hit with a template that has the rule Swarm, that model suffers an additional wound. This wound is per model and does not mean 1 "hit" causes 2 pastes, only 1 paste if its strong enough to do it.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Now we add together the fact that that is only 58% of 66%; which leads you to an overall 72.222% chance to get 3 hits per blast marker, or basically a 2/3(roughly) chance to have all 4 land for 12 hits.

Your math is completely wrong. If each shot has a 72% chance of hitting a MC then you have a 27% chance of hitting with all four shots.

I didn't actually bother doing the math on all 4 shots.

Also i was talking about your average results not the overall percentage

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

And if it is a 2/3 chance of 4 hits then the average is somewhere between 2-3 hits which is exactly what I said. Your post in no way invalidates mine, it just goes into more detail. It also doesn't account for wound rolls and Nova Reactor. So I'm still waiting for somebody to show me how it comfortably gets 12 wounds, which was the claim the OP made.

2-3 hits Which you then multiply by 3. so 6 or 9 hits.

I was not arguing that it gets 12 wounds, only that there is a decent chance to get 12 hits. If it gets 12 hits it will average 9 wounds on t7 MCs, at AP3. AS far as the nova reactor goes, you should only fail once per game.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
AS far as the nova reactor goes, you should only fail once per game.

Don't think is correct.

I think the math goes out to 1-2 per game on average. Though that never happens, i either pass them all or fail them all lol. No idea how irritating it is to have a riptide die because it failed 4 novas and then random lascannon finishes it off >.<

 Vineheart01 wrote:
I think the math goes out to 1-2 per game on average. Though that never happens, i either pass them all or fail them all lol. No idea how irritating it is to have a riptide die because it failed 4 novas and then random lascannon finishes it off >.<

This is it.

The math averages to 2 fails per game(assuming usage every turn, and survival to the last turn); but in reality you are not going to have: Fail, pass, pass, fail, pass, pass; nor any exact patterned derivation like it; you will either fail several times or more likely pass many times(as you pass 66.666% of each roll, not "of the time").

Interestingly reading the fluff the main reason for the suit was in the use against nids horde/monstrous creatures so I don't think the intention was for vehicles, goodbye tervigons etc

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
AS far as the nova reactor goes, you should only fail once per game.

Average game is 6 turns and Nova Reactor is on a 3+. That's 2 fails on average per game, not 1.

Don't forget that he doesn't need to take skyfire, so the only upgrade that makes sense for a 6W beastie like him is Interceptor and FNP.

Well, taking skyfire on him would be pointless lol not just not needed. Most tau weapons have multiple modes to shoot but this one just shoots pi plates.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Well, taking skyfire on him would be pointless lol not just not needed. Most tau weapons have multiple modes to shoot but this one just shoots pi plates.

The point is, skyfire is a viable option for the normal riptide with HBC's or even the riptides with secondary weapons. But since this new riptide can't make any use of it, that secondary upgrade slot (1st would be for Interceptor) can be reserved for FNP if you don't mind paying 300-pts for a riptide.....which is still an incredibly effective unit against the right opponents.

 Krellnus wrote:
Whilst I'm probably going to get this, just for the kick ass model, I'm not 100% sold on the rules as they are, and its currently in heavy, which as an Enclave Player, I would have prefered it stay in elite, but what can you do?

But what can you do? BUT WHAT CAN YOU DO?!

You could start by not whining about its FO slot and start appreciating the fact that Tau, already top-tier, got yet another uber-powered-Gundam-status-Laugh-at-your-misery ass kicking machine.

Thank God its not 40k sanctioned.

It has the same weaknesses as a Riptide. Massed pie plates hurt obviously, but it's not something the Tau really need more of...

 Godless-Mimicry wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
AS far as the nova reactor goes, you should only fail once per game.

Average game is 6 turns and Nova Reactor is on a 3+. That's 2 fails on average per game, not 1.

I addressed this in my last post.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
It has the same weaknesses as a Riptide. Massed pie plates hurt obviously, but it's not something the Tau really need more of...

That's like saying annihilation barges have the same weaknesses as other necron AV13 vehicles and that tesla-destructors is something that they don't really need more of....

Are you kidding me?!? What's not to like about one of the best and more flexible units in the Tau codex?





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I look at this guy and I see a bad-ass who is just too good for the points. He has a role to play and he will do it extremely well, and that is MEQ-icide. Anything without 2+ armour is going to get annihilated by this guy, especially if you add a Buff Commander to give him Ignore Cover and Monster/Tank Hunter. (Also wondering if the Commander's re-rolls will allow the tide to re-roll his scatters?) Hordes are going to get vaporized just like that. Sorry, thunderfire cannon....you can't even touch this!

 jy2 wrote:

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
It has the same weaknesses as a Riptide. Massed pie plates hurt obviously, but it's not something the Tau really need more of...

That's like saying annihilation barges have the same weaknesses as other necron AV13 vehicles and that tesla-destructors is something that they don't really need more of....

Are you kidding me?!? What's not to like about one of the best and more flexible units in the Tau codex?





Automatically Appended Next Post:
I look at this guy and I see a bad-ass who is just too good for the points. He has a role to play and he will do it extremely well, and that is MEQ-icide. Anything without 2+ armour is going to get annihilated by this guy, especially if you add a Buff Commander to give him Ignore Cover and Monster/Tank Hunter. (Also wondering if the Commander's re-rolls will allow the tide to re-roll his scatters?) Hordes are going to get vaporized just like that. Sorry, thunderfire cannon....you can't even touch this!

You can almost get 3 Thunderfire Cannons for the price of one of these. I'd bloody well expect a 260 point model to be better at its job than a 100 point one.

Asmodai Asmodean wrote:
It has the same weaknesses as a Riptide. Massed pie plates hurt obviously, but it's not something the Tau really need more of...

Actually, if Tau are lacking in any aspect of shooting, it's pie plates. We have, what, three? Riptide Ion plates, Sunshark pulse bombs and Hammerhead Submunitions. More pie plates? Yes please.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You can almost get 3 Thunderfire Cannons for the price of one of these. I'd bloody well expect a 260 point model to be better at its job than a 100 point one.

Trust me, he is. This guy (+Buff Commander) can potentially take out an entire 50-man blob squad in just 1 go. Heck, it can potentially take out a 20-man MEQ horde in 1 go. Moreover, he can easily kill any non-2+ MC as well as vehicles much more reliably than the TFC and is actually more survivable than 3 TFC's. Lol.

I wouldn't allow him in tournament play, at least not until his rules get fixed (edit: nerfed) with a 40K Approved stamp.

It's too good at what it does. I hope it gets hit with the nerf bat.

Compare to a Wraithknight (which has a 3+ save and no free invulnerable) and half the firepower.

But if it gets nerfed, we will have all the Tau players complaining that their FW model is not powerful enough

imo if it can kill a whole 30 boy Ork blob within a turn, its needs nerfed with a battering ram, never mind a bat

How good are these a swap for broadsides?

Very; 3 Str 8 hits on vehicles with every hit vs 1 TL shot.

It potentially out-shoots a 3 man Broadside team, and holds a high level of survivability(Without the missile drones dragging it T down), and costs less than a 3-man team.

I would still field a broadside team with Velocity trackers though.

 jy2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

You can almost get 3 Thunderfire Cannons for the price of one of these. I'd bloody well expect a 260 point model to be better at its job than a 100 point one.

Trust me, he is. This guy (+Buff Commander) can potentially take out an entire 50-man blob squad in just 1 go. Heck, it can potentially take out a 20-man MEQ horde in 1 go. Moreover, he can easily kill any non-2+ MC as well as vehicles much more reliably than the TFC and is actually more survivable than 3 TFC's. Lol.

I wouldn't allow him in tournament play, at least not until his rules get fixed (edit: nerfed) with a 40K Approved stamp.

You need an average of 14.583... models beneath each blast marker if you're firing 4 of them to kill 50 guardsmen in one shooting phase. 3 Thunderfire Cannons need an average of 4.8611... beneath each small blast marker. Both are unlikely, but a Thunderfire Cannon murders the everliving gak out of light infantry just fine, and it's barrage to boot.

Similarly, it'd need an average of 5.833... Marines hit by each marker to kill 20 marines in one shooting phase, and it means you're also attaching a buff commander to it.

Tbh the XV107 is least effective against standard infantry.

Just it doesn't do AA & that's a need for me :*(

Edit: So the ECPA should work with a XV107 as it is a battlesuit. There is no requirement for a riptide.

Less effective against infantry how? It wounds all except nurgle marines on 2s and ap3 pens all except termie armor, which isnt really considered infantry anyway. Anything with a pi plate is usually your friend against infantry because it can wound like crazy, especially if your opponent either didnt or couldnt space properly. And this thing shoots 2-4 pi plates lol.

I usually have an Ionhead in my lists and it usually fires at troops not big things. If i can nail a vehicle in the process, sweet, but unless its something important or getting too close i never fire it at a vehicle...always infantry. This thing is 2x the cost of the Ionhead and puts out the same possibly double the dakka.

Razerous wrote:
Tbh the XV107 is least effective against standard infantry.

Just it doesn't do AA & that's a need for me :*(

Edit: So the ECPA should work with a XV107 as it is a battlesuit. There is no requirement for a riptide.

Except that it doesn't have access to signature systems.

It puts out normal damage against against infantry.

With the nothing it has(math?!) a 1/3 to fail a nova, putting out 4 pie plates. It might prove to be excessive but it looses mobility, ap2, fusion fun & AA potential.

Sorry. The exception does exist, your right. (Edit)

 Krellnus wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Tbh the XV107 is least effective against standard infantry.

Just it doesn't do AA & that's a need for me :*(

Edit: So the ECPA should work with a XV107 as it is a battlesuit. There is no requirement for a riptide.

Except that it doesn't have access to signature systems.

Except that Riptides can take Signature systems when using the book that the ECPA is in.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 Krellnus wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Tbh the XV107 is least effective against standard infantry.

Just it doesn't do AA & that's a need for me :*(

Edit: So the ECPA should work with a XV107 as it is a battlesuit. There is no requirement for a riptide.

Except that it doesn't have access to signature systems.

Except that Riptides can take Signature systems when using the book that the ECPA is in.

XV107 R'Varna =/= XV104 Riptide

XV107 > Tau Codex - Yes

Tau Codex > Firesight Enclaves - Yes

Farsight Enclaves > Tau Codex Yes

Farsight Codex > Tau Codex XV108 - Yes

Farsight Codex > XV107 - No (No mention, doesn't work).

For the Farsight Enclaves wargear, it works one way but not t'other. To my medium dismay (it is 290pts...)

Razerous wrote:
As this unit is a heavy support choice in Codex: Tau Empires; Can I choose to take it as a heavy support in my Farsight Enclaves supplement.

Yes, since the Farsight suppliment use the Tau Codex to make up its army list and the FW rules puts the XV107 into the Tau Codex essentially.

Then, I assume taking a ECPA (Good old Builders!) is a given, given the awesome potential for Nova ripple fire carnage.

Unfortunately not, it states specifically the XV104 riptide.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Razerous wrote:
Tbh the XV107 is least effective against standard infantry.

Just it doesn't do AA & that's a need for me :*(

Edit: So the ECPA should work with a XV107 as it is a battlesuit. There is no requirement for a riptide.

Only XV104 Riptides can take Signature systems in a farsight list though.

*compares to Leman Russ and cries*

6 S8 AP3 shots are still effective vs vehicles. This is what SW have been doing for ages now. Going to 12 2/3 of the time is pretty darn stupid. Considering all the buffs tau can throw on that, im not seeing how this is balanced at all. Losing jump status is of little consequence when you are the toughest model to kill in the game. Tervigons were considered 'tough' when they had no inv. This thing is just a joke. Literally nothing is standing in this things path if it gets even 2 marker light hits on target. *oh look, 9-12 S8 AP3 hits on that tervigon, oh dead. How about wraithknights? BS5 the gun and get all 12 hits, and you are averaging a kill again*. The rules literally say "effective vs every target in the game". This was the PROBLEM with 6th tau. They had few weaknesses that special rules didnt already cover. Now they are just making it worse with another buff to an already OP unit.

Here's a suggestion to "reign" him in.

Reduce to T6.

Make Nova-charge +1 Str only.

Even at that, he'd still be a great bargain.

Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Razerous wrote:
Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Wrong, sorry to be so blunt, most things will be wounding this on a 6, str3 not at all, then a 2+ save as most things won't be rocking ap2 weapons, if the tau player wants he will activate the 3++, riptides are good at combat due to being both a mc and hard to kill.

 Formosa wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Wrong, sorry to be so blunt, most things will be wounding this on a 6, str3 not at all, then a 2+ save as most things won't be rocking ap2 weapons, if the tau player wants he will activate the 3++, riptides are good at combat due to being both a mc and hard to kill.

To be fair, the biggest reason Riptides are good at CC is that they can simply ignore it by jumping away when the enemy gets close. This can't. Even if you won't kill it you'll still tie it down for quite a while.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Wrong, sorry to be so blunt, most things will be wounding this on a 6, str3 not at all, then a 2+ save as most things won't be rocking ap2 weapons, if the tau player wants he will activate the 3++, riptides are good at combat due to being both a mc and hard to kill.

To be fair, the biggest reason Riptides are good at CC is that they can simply ignore it by jumping away when the enemy gets close. This can't. Even if you won't kill it you'll still tie it down for quite a while.

Sure it can. Buff commander with vectored retro-thrusters. Good times!

The problem with this and close combat is just getting to it. The range and durability means this thing can just sit back on a piece of terrain and lob 4 large blasts per turn.
The draw back that it can't hit flyers is negligible since it has the equivalent of 2-4 ioncannons on a more durable frame. Saying that it can't take on flyers well is like saying that double fusion crisis suits are bad because they can't handle a green tide. That's not what it's there for. It costs twice as much as a Ionhead, but more cost effective and more survivable in CC than one.

Basically the way I see it, is you can take one of these things in heavy support and it frees up a lot of options. One of these is sufficient for anti-infantry and even decent against some armor and MC. This frees up your other options in the list, like making it guilt free to get skyfire on broadsides. It even makes HBC Riptides look decent since I'll have enough large blasts going out each turn.

Has anyone thought about giving this guy the buffcommander? Monster hunter or tank hunter on this thing with the multiple hits tied in with ignoring cover and twin-linking just seems mean. It would be expensive, but would put out a lot of hurt.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Wrong, sorry to be so blunt, most things will be wounding this on a 6, str3 not at all, then a 2+ save as most things won't be rocking ap2 weapons, if the tau player wants he will activate the 3++, riptides are good at combat due to being both a mc and hard to kill.

To be fair, the biggest reason Riptides are good at CC is that they can simply ignore it by jumping away when the enemy gets close. This can't. Even if you won't kill it you'll still tie it down for quite a while.

Give it Vectored Retro-thrusters and a shielded missile drone. Keep the missile drone behind him so that all hits are allocated to it first. Problem solved.

BTW, you can keep the shield drone in front to maximize range. Then in the Assault phase, jump the missile drone behind the tide for some protection.

 jy2 wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Formosa wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Wrong, sorry to be so blunt, most things will be wounding this on a 6, str3 not at all, then a 2+ save as most things won't be rocking ap2 weapons, if the tau player wants he will activate the 3++, riptides are good at combat due to being both a mc and hard to kill.

To be fair, the biggest reason Riptides are good at CC is that they can simply ignore it by jumping away when the enemy gets close. This can't. Even if you won't kill it you'll still tie it down for quite a while.

Give it Vectored Retro-thrusters and a shielded missile drone. Keep the missile drone behind him so that all hits are allocated to it first. Problem solved.

BTW, you can keep the shield drone in front to maximize range. Then in the Assault phase, jump the missile drone behind the tide for some protection.

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

Tau Skyfire wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

It explicitly says it has the same limitations as a Riptide.

Tau Skyfire wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

Did you just appeal to RAW without actually having read the rules in question?

Smooth.

Le Sigh....

Thud wrote:

Tau Skyfire wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

Did you just appeal to RAW without actually having read the rules in question?

Smooth.

And I quote from the support systems mention for 'Options' for the XV107 'see page 95 of the Codex: Tau Empire with the same restrictions of choice that apply to a Riptide battlesuit..'

So yes, I think he did read them, as I just have - Unless you can highlight a point I am missing. That is smooth!

Formosa wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Its blast weapon fire so scatters still matter. Its also 260pts of heavy support that can't touch Air & fills a very similar role to Broadsides.

Engage it with anything in cc, you win.

Wrong, sorry to be so blunt, most things will be wounding this on a 6, str3 not at all, then a 2+ save as most things won't be rocking ap2 weapons, if the tau player wants he will activate the 3++, riptides are good at combat due to being both a mc and hard to kill.

Not shooting for a turn is a victory for the opposing player, assuming they haven't tied up the 3A XV107 with a expensive unit.

It can kill 3 models a turn. It will often kill 1-2, if any (after To-Hit, wounds, Inv saves). Most units can survive that level of punishment happily, most of those for the reminder of the game.

 Savageconvoy wrote:
The problem with this and close combat is just getting to it. The range and durability means this thing can just sit back on a piece of terrain and lob 4 large blasts per turn.

If I'm doing my maths correctly, aiming to do this every turn is (I think) one of the quickest ways to kill a Riptide/XV107. Oh, nearly, whilst a BS5 Str9+ AP1-2 is @ 27% per lost wound a WS3+ Str9+ AP1-2 is at 37%, just above the 33% of the Nova.

Don't get me wrong, it can be very pivotal and rewarding but it is also a quick way to loose a Riptide/XV107.

Razerous wrote:
Le Sigh....

Thud wrote:

Tau Skyfire wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

Did you just appeal to RAW without actually having read the rules in question?

Smooth.

And I quote from the support systems mention for 'Options' for the XV107 'see page 95 of the Codex: Tau Empire with the same restrictions of choice that apply to a Riptide battlesuit..'

So yes, I think he did read them, as I just have - Unless you can highlight a point I am missing. That is smooth!

I did read them in the same way as you, I apologise for getting something wrong if I have, but can you quote a specific rule that prevents me from doing this?

Tau Skyfire wrote:
I did read them in the same way as you, I apologise for getting something wrong if I have, but can you quote a specific rule that prevents me from doing this?

Read the rules in the pdf. It explicitly says that it must follow the restrictions for which upgrades the Riptide can take, and the Riptide is not allowed to take VRTs.

Tau Skyfire wrote:

Razerous wrote:
Le Sigh....

Thud wrote:

Tau Skyfire wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

Did you just appeal to RAW without actually having read the rules in question?

Smooth.

And I quote from the support systems mention for 'Options' for the XV107 'see page 95 of the Codex: Tau Empire with the same restrictions of choice that apply to a Riptide battlesuit..'

So yes, I think he did read them, as I just have - Unless you can highlight a point I am missing. That is smooth!

I did read them in the same way as you, I apologise for getting something wrong if I have, but can you quote a specific rule that prevents me from doing this?

Tau Empire Wargear List on page 95 of Codex: Tau Empire. Under "Support Systems" in the right column. Vectored retro-thrusters is specifically restricted from being taken on Riptides and Broadsides.

Le sigh, indeed.

Tau Skyfire wrote:

 jy2 wrote:

Thud wrote:

Can't give VRT to Riptides. So you'd need a Buff Commander for that.

Darn. <<cue the violins>>

Actually, RAW, you can give them VRT as the XV107 R'Varna is NOT a Riptide therefore there is no rule that prevents you from doing this.

Sure, you could argue that..........., if you want a kick in the nads from your opponent.

Its a good point to raise though, we have determined that the XV107s can't have signature systems because of this type of wording. However I think common sense has to prevail here. The XV107 doesn't even have a jet pack, so I don't see how you would be able to argue that it can take VRTs. The whole reason why Broadsides can't have them in the first place is because of that.

 DarthOvious wrote:
Its a good point to raise though, we have determined that the XV107s can't have signature systems because of this type of wording. However I think common sense has to prevail here. The XV107 doesn't even have a jet pack, so I don't see how you would be able to argue that it can take VRTs. The whole reason why Broadsides can't have them in the first place is because of that.

XV107s can NOT take VRTs, period. There is absolutely no ambiguity about this.

The XV107's rules state that you have to obey the upgrade restrictions for Riptides.

VRTs state that they can not be taken by Riptides.

Conclusion: XV107s can not take VRTs. Anyone claiming otherwise either hasn't bothered to read the rules or is deliberately cheating.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
Its a good point to raise though, we have determined that the XV107s can't have signature systems because of this type of wording. However I think common sense has to prevail here. The XV107 doesn't even have a jet pack, so I don't see how you would be able to argue that it can take VRTs. The whole reason why Broadsides can't have them in the first place is because of that.

XV107s can NOT take VRTs, period. There is absolutely no ambiguity about this.

The XV107's rules state that you have to obey the upgrade restrictions for Riptides.

VRTs state that they can not be taken by Riptides.

Conclusion: XV107s can not take VRTs. Anyone claiming otherwise either hasn't bothered to read the rules or is deliberately cheating.

Ah I forgot about that restriction on the the rules. Thanks for clarrifying. It wouldn't have been something I would have done anyway as it was clear to me it shouldn't really be able to take them in the first place. Hence why I said common sense wise it shouldn't be done. As pointed out by others in the thread though it can't be done anyway with the wording shown on the rules.

This rule wouldn't be able to be used to get signature systems from the farsight book then could it? Once again, just asking for clarrification. I don't think it does, but just in case some people think it could.

 Peregrine wrote:

 DarthOvious wrote:
Its a good point to raise though, we have determined that the XV107s can't have signature systems because of this type of wording. However I think common sense has to prevail here. The XV107 doesn't even have a jet pack, so I don't see how you would be able to argue that it can take VRTs. The whole reason why Broadsides can't have them in the first place is because of that.

XV107s can NOT take VRTs, period. There is absolutely no ambiguity about this.

The XV107's rules state that you have to obey the upgrade restrictions for Riptides.

VRTs state that they can not be taken by Riptides.

Conclusion: XV107s can not take VRTs. Anyone claiming otherwise either hasn't bothered to read the rules or is deliberately cheating.

Thank you for clarifying this, I have since had a close look at the rules and agree with you. Thanks for clearing that up.

Keep in mind the Rvarna is not a JUMP model, so it moves 6" a turn. Its guns do have high range but its not that hard to block LOS for range, often speed and the ability to be somewhere fast (or not be somewhere ) is better than range.

at bs3 without something to up its chance to hit the average pie plate will not land on target.

The only thing thats really scary about this thing is the cluster rules and a lucky streak of rolls.

 DarthOvious wrote:
Ah I forgot about that restriction on the the rules. Thanks for clarrifying. It wouldn't have been something I would have done anyway as it was clear to me it shouldn't really be able to take them in the first place. Hence why I said common sense wise it shouldn't be done. As pointed out by others in the thread though it can't be done anyway with the wording shown on the rules.

I pointed it out in my last post, with page numbers and everything.

This rule wouldn't be able to be used to get signature systems from the farsight book then could it? Once again, just asking for clarrification. I don't think it does, but just in case some people think it could.

I doubt it. The Farsight book allows Riptides to take signature systems, but the R'Varna is consistently referred to as a R'Varna or R'Varna battlesuit. However, the R'Varna battle suit is then referred to as a "variant of the standard XV104 Battlesuit" (first sentence under the rules for XV107 battle suit on p. 2 of the pdf). Still a bit of a stretch, though, IMO.