In a relatively fair and even siege would the iron warriors or imperial fists win if the iron warriors layed siege to an IF citadel? Discuss.

The Besieged typically lose to the Siege-r, for this reason alone: Whoever is held up in their fortress have to deal with dwindling supplies unless a supply route is secured, which is typically impossible in a siege scenario. There is also the problem with getting supplies that haven't been sabotaged as well. All the while, trying to keep your own walls from imploding.

Another good reason to say the Iron Warriors will ultimately win the siege? Daemons and Daemon engines. The Machine Spirit is no match to the foul works of the Warpsmiths. +__+

Not sure if I gave anyone an advantage (I haven't meant to) but I simply made the iron warriors the siegers and the imperial fists the besieged because generally from the fluff I have read IW are undisputed masters of the offensive siege whereas IF are the undisputed masters of the defensive siege

IF would have secured those supply routes, if they even need them. Remember the IF don't even need their whole legion/chapter to hold a fortress, they use few defenders and keep the rest as a mobile strike force. As a matter of fact, fluff wise everything points towards IF being the much better siege masters. (even horus himself)

IF were busting up the Iron warriors BEST fortress trap, without ANY planning at all... imagine if they had actually planned a strategic attack

I voted IF...but The real winner isn't up there, the ture victor would be Dkok.

Imperial Fists, because

 raiden wrote:
IF would have secured those supply routes, if they even need them. Remember the IF don't even need their whole legion/chapter to hold a fortress, they use few defenders and keep the rest as a mobile strike force. As a matter of fact, fluff wise everything points towards IF being the much better siege masters. (even horus himself)

IF were busting up the Iron warriors BEST fortress trap, without ANY planning at all... imagine if they had actually planned a strategic attack

If you'r refering to te Iron cage incident I don't think it was a walk in the park for the Imperial fists, couple of hundreds of marines dying for no real victory and having to be saved by the Ultramarines is hardly an easy victory.

As for the question itself Ihave to go with the fourth legion simply due to the nature of siege warfare, besiegers can always cut the supply line at which point it's only a matter of time before there is no more food and ammunition. Secondly, no matter how well you build your walls, sooner or later a part of it is going to collapse from enough shelling. And thirdly the Iron warriors legion is still a legion not a chapter, ie they can field a much larger number of marines as well as slaves and traitor guard while the imperial fists are stuck at slightly less than a thuosand marines.

And yes I know that the fists could field imperial guard soldiers and PDF forces as well, but I would argue that it's not the same as the IW slaves and traitor guard as the IG and PDF follow a separate command chain and can never be a permanent part of the fist army whereas the slaves are fully dependant and subservient to the fourth legion.

Well, there was the Iron Cage incident. The Iron Warriors go to extreme lengths for their trolling efforts.

Well remember the Siege of Terra? Yeah? IF>IW

Dorn genuinely believed his Legion were better. Remember he could not lie, and when asked if the VII could hold off the IV, he said yes.

 Deadshot wrote:
Well remember the Siege of Terra? Yeah? IF>IW

I don't think you can call the siege of terra a win for the fists, the walls were breached and the palace pretty much taken, ie the IW won the siege, but due to the death of Horus and the loyalist reinforcements the traitors could not capitalise on their victory and were forced to retreat.

Read the HH novel Angel Exterminatus.

 Dantioch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Well remember the Siege of Terra? Yeah? IF>IW

I don't think you can call the siege of terra a win for the fists, the walls were breached and the palace pretty much taken, ie the IW won the siege, but due to the death of Horus and the loyalist reinforcements the traitors could not capitalise on their victory and were forced to retreat.

Ii don't consider it a victory for the Besiegers untill they obtain complete control of the objective. The objective of the defenders is to defeat the attackers or survive long enough for reinforcements to save you, which is what the Imperials did.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Well remember the Siege of Terra? Yeah? IF>IW

I don't think you can call the siege of terra a win for the fists, the walls were breached and the palace pretty much taken, ie the IW won the siege, but due to the death of Horus and the loyalist reinforcements the traitors could not capitalise on their victory and were forced to retreat.

Ii don't consider it a victory for the Besiegers untill they obtain complete control of the objective. The objective of the defenders is to defeat the attackers or survive long enough for reinforcements to save you, which is what the Imperials did.

The battle for Terra was more or less a statement between the Fist and the tin cans, with the overall victory of course going to the imperial side.

I voted Iron Warriors but fluff-wise it would probably be IF's because GW likes to big up the loyalist chapters.

Imperial Fists. All the fluff I've gotten my hands on so far supports this theory. Could be plenty I missed though, so obviously this is a PoV situation.

The problem with this question is the words "fair and even" - the IW don't play by the rules.
So because of this, as much as I love the IF... the IW win it, I think.

 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
The problem with this question is the words "fair and even" - the IW don't play by the rules.
So because of this, as much as I love the IF... the IW win it, I think.

Yeah, this needs to be taken from a realistic perspective.

The IW don't play fair.
The IF have been castrated of a great deal of their former power.
The IW have Daemon Engines and perfected the craft of the Daemonforge (something they probably didn't have at the Siege of Terra)
The Siege is a battle over time, where the besieged are at a tremendous disadvantage unless you are Russia and fighting Nazi Germany, which the Space Marines are neither.

Any war of attrition like a siege spells doom for the defending side, whether it's from a slow, seeping wound or a decapitating blow.

Now, here is a much better question: Would the IF survive a "death to all" siege from the IW? I.E. could they escape and survive their legacy to fight another day, perhaps without the restrictions placed on their chapter? Maybe on a home world somewhere? And would a siege between these two titans of their trade not be equally as amazing and epic, and so too the following lore of the Imperial Fists survival? ABSOLUTELY WHICH SHOULD MAKE YOU WANT TO SEE THEM DEFEATED BY THE HORDES OF THE IRON WARRIORS.

Hell, it worked for Abbadon. Let's see Dorn fall and his 1st become "Siege Master" or w/e they have over d'ere. Maybe he figures out how to fully commune with the Machine Spirit and equalizes the following battles with greater dues ex machina. :O

Also, in the scenario I have forseen in the universe, in regards to the eventual Fall of the Imperium of Man, suggests that remnants survive to fight on and inevitably return balance to Real Space and the Warp. So groups like (I dunno SM lore too well, so bare with me) the Space Wolves would probably dropped to a man, the "Angels" would all probably be wiped out in their suicidal feuds with Chaos, leaving groups like the bloated Ultramarines or Minotaurs. I dunno. Hopefully you all see where I'm getting at.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
The Besieged typically lose to the Siege-r, for this reason alone: Whoever is held up in their fortress have to deal with dwindling supplies unless a supply route is secured, which is typically impossible in a siege scenario. There is also the problem with getting supplies that haven't been sabotaged as well. All the while, trying to keep your own walls from imploding.

Another good reason to say the Iron Warriors will ultimately win the siege? Daemons and Daemon engines. The Machine Spirit is no match to the foul works of the Warpsmiths. +__+

can i ask you why you think the besieged normally lose?
normally its the besieger who loses for one reason or the other thats why id have to give my vote to the imperial fists

atlervetok wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
The Besieged typically lose to the Siege-r, for this reason alone: Whoever is held up in their fortress have to deal with dwindling supplies unless a supply route is secured, which is typically impossible in a siege scenario. There is also the problem with getting supplies that haven't been sabotaged as well. All the while, trying to keep your own walls from imploding.

Another good reason to say the Iron Warriors will ultimately win the siege? Daemons and Daemon engines. The Machine Spirit is no match to the foul works of the Warpsmiths. +__+

can i ask you why you think the besieged normally lose?
normally its the besieger who loses for one reason or the other thats why id have to give my vote to the imperial fists

Because we are not still building castles? "Laying siege" in the days of modern warfare takes on a whole new meaning, starting with the advent of the Cannonball. Essentially, the lesson learned was that it was better to be flexible and mobile than stagnant and grounded, though a fortified position was certainly an asset for individual combat. Sustained bombardment, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.

The IF win. Even if the IW have greater numbers, they're mustache-twirling in-fighting is problematic. And if you're going to assume the entire IW get together on this then I'd say you need to count the BT, too.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
The problem with this question is the words "fair and even" - the IW don't play by the rules.
So because of this, as much as I love the IF... the IW win it, I think.

Yeah, this needs to be taken from a realistic perspective.

The IW don't play fair.
The IF have been castrated of a great deal of their former power.
The IW have Daemon Engines and perfected the craft of the Daemonforge (something they probably didn't have at the Siege of Terra)
The Siege is a battle over time, where the besieged are at a tremendous disadvantage unless you are Russia and fighting Nazi Germany, which the Space Marines are neither.

Any war of attrition like a siege spells doom for the defending side, whether it's from a slow, seeping wound or a decapitating blow.

I think the 'don't play fair' issue is irrelevant. All of the Imperial and non Imperial forces 'don't play fair', war isn't about 'playing fair', it's about completing your objectives with the least loss possible. I'm sure every opponent the IFs have ever faced all played fair and that somehow the wedgie masters will pull one over on them right?

Oh, and wars of attrition work against the attackers too. Many sieges have been lost due to the onset of disease, lack of food, etc. During the First Crusade, in several places, the crusaders were almost defeated because they'd eaten up everything within miles, and had to go to far in foraging parties (allowing the defenders to attack the foragers with ease). The Normans successfully invaded the Byzantine Empire, but lost out and had to flee in the end because they over extended.

Sieges do not spell doom for the defenders, all to often the attackers are just as close to capitulating as the defenders even when the attackers do win. If a 'defensive' strategy had no merits, no castle would have ever been built and the Roman army wouldn't have spent over 1000 years building a fortified encampment every time they moved.

^ well said

Perhaps what these chaps are referring to is something like the Cage, where Perturabo tricked Dorn as to what Dorn thought his objectives should be.

My vote is on IF. But then again a lot of factors have to be considered for a definite winner. Im just basing my opinion on the fluff in the supplement. Also the most strategic defenses can be manned by a lesser number compared to the attackers, which leaves the defenders a supply of men that can strike separately from their defenses.

Then again there are other issues like supplies and reinforcements that affect the outcome.

A true siege in the 41st millenium between marines is quite dependant on space superiority, if the fist would still have space superiority they could get supplies down to their fortress while depriving the IWs of their's. Since we assume that the IW are besieging the fists it is safe to assume that space superiority belongs to them. Therefore logistics for the warriors should be an easy problem to solve especially since there, unlike during the siege of Acre, exists fliers making distances irrelevant.

With space marines involved on both sides the psychological problems, such as boredom or despair, is also pretty much inconsequential meaning that both forces fighting till the last drop of blood and the siege having to be resolved by might.

Furthermore the Iron warriors will be fortifying their siege lines to a level where it would be as hard to assault their lines as it would be to assault the IF's fortress. The IW however have the possibilty of getting resuppied whereas the fist's lack this possibility and therefore time is on the traitors' side.

 Dantioch wrote:
A true siege in the 41st millenium between marines is quite dependant on space superiority, if the fist would still have space superiority they could get supplies down to their fortress while depriving the IWs of their's. Since we assume that the IW are besieging the fists it is safe to assume that space superiority belongs to them. Therefore logistics for the warriors should be an easy problem to solve especially since there, unlike during the siege of Acre, exists fliers making distances irrelevant.

With space marines involved on both sides the psychological problems, such as boredom or despair, is also pretty much inconsequential meaning that both forces fighting till the last drop of blood and the siege having to be resolved by might.

Furthermore the Iron warriors will be fortifying their siege lines to a level where it would be as hard to assault their lines as it would be to assault the IF's fortress. The IW however have the possibilty of getting resuppied whereas the fist's lack this possibility and therefore time is on the traitors' side.

Not even remotely the case where space travel pretty well precludes being able to fully armor up the space around you due to people popping in from no where thanks to the warp. Nothing would prevent the IF 'ground' contingent from being supported from space, even with the IW in 'control' over the planet. Fleets can pop in and have at you with little warning.

Even the most resolute of men still suffer from flagging will to win. Space Marines aren't immune to despair or none of them would have fallen to Chaos. Even when you hate your foes it doesn't make you immune. Knights Templar and Hospitaller made some stupid tactical decisions on occasion because of this, despite being intimately aware of their foes and possessed of a win or die trying mindset that never saw them surrender willingly. If you don't believe many/most of the crusaders were motivated by spiritual reasons you will have an impossible time explaining the People's Crusade or the Children's crusade. Yet even those folks had doubts and failings of faith. People bred from birth to believe, trust, and be blindly devoted to a certain belief style can still falter in the belief they are winning. Shoot, even the Germanic/Scandinavian cultures where death in battle meant you went to heaven and to die of old age was the worst death possible still faltered.

The Iron Warriors may look all super mentally tough on the outside, but they've already abandoned their beliefs once. The cracks are already there.

With an inability to close off access to a planet (and sans magical warp storms, the Iron Warriors cannot do this), they cannot completely cut off all supply and communication lines. Second, what would stop the IF from having underground food and manufacturing facilities to keep their equipment up in a way no current or historical fortress/army could? Any of which saps morale or a total willingness to prosecute the battle in the correct fashion.

I didn't vote, because I don't have an opinion on the winner, but the 'obviously as the besiegers they will win' doesn't work.

By the way when I said fair and even I only meant no saboteur traitors in the fortress and equal numbers. Any dirty tactic the IW and IF can think of is fair game!

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:
A true siege in the 41st millenium between marines is quite dependant on space superiority, if the fist would still have space superiority they could get supplies down to their fortress while depriving the IWs of their's. Since we assume that the IW are besieging the fists it is safe to assume that space superiority belongs to them. Therefore logistics for the warriors should be an easy problem to solve especially since there, unlike during the siege of Acre, exists fliers making distances irrelevant.

With space marines involved on both sides the psychological problems, such as boredom or despair, is also pretty much inconsequential meaning that both forces fighting till the last drop of blood and the siege having to be resolved by might.

Furthermore the Iron warriors will be fortifying their siege lines to a level where it would be as hard to assault their lines as it would be to assault the IF's fortress. The IW however have the possibilty of getting resuppied whereas the fist's lack this possibility and therefore time is on the traitors' side.

Not even remotely the case where space travel pretty well precludes being able to fully armor up the space around you due to people popping in from no where thanks to the warp. Nothing would prevent the IF 'ground' contingent from being supported from space, even with the IW in 'control' over the planet. Fleets can pop in and have at you with little warning.

Even the most resolute of men still suffer from flagging will to win. Space Marines aren't immune to despair or none of them would have fallen to Chaos. Even when you hate your foes it doesn't make you immune. Knights Templar and Hospitaller made some stupid tactical decisions on occasion because of this, despite being intimately aware of their foes and possessed of a win or die trying mindset that never saw them surrender willingly. If you don't believe many/most of the crusaders were motivated by spiritual reasons you will have an impossible time explaining the People's Crusade or the Children's crusade. Yet even those folks had doubts and failings of faith. People bred from birth to believe, trust, and be blindly devoted to a certain belief style can still falter in the belief they are winning. Shoot, even the Germanic/Scandinavian cultures where death in battle meant you went to heaven and to die of old age was the worst death possible still faltered.

The Iron Warriors may look all super mentally tough on the outside, but they've already abandoned their beliefs once. The cracks are already there.

With an inability to close off access to a planet (and sans magical warp storms, the Iron Warriors cannot do this), they cannot completely cut off all supply and communication lines. Second, what would stop the IF from having underground food and manufacturing facilities to keep their equipment up in a way no current or historical fortress/army could? Any of which saps morale or a total willingness to prosecute the battle in the correct fashion.

I didn't vote, because I don't have an opinion on the winner, but the 'obviously as the besiegers they will win' doesn't work.

I have a few serious quibbles here:

Not even remotely the case where space travel pretty well precludes being able to fully armor up the space around you due to people popping in from no where thanks to the warp. Nothing would prevent the IF 'ground' contingent from being supported from space, even with the IW in 'control' over the planet. Fleets can pop in and have at you with little warning.

Yes fleets can drop out of the warp, but they aren't doing it right above a planet, dropping supplies, and running. Fluff always depicts ships dropping out of the warp fairly far from planets and having to travel in real-space through a system, and the fluff also supports fleets needing to gain and maintain control of the space above planets. EVERY piece of fluff written that I've ever seen suggests the besieged would have resupply issues if the attackers had control of the space above the planet.

Even the most resolute of men still suffer from flagging will to win. Space Marines aren't immune to despair or none of them would have fallen to Chaos. Even when you hate your foes it doesn't make you immune. Knights Templar and Hospitaller ....

Gotta stop you right there. You're right that marines are not totally immune to psychological effects but don't even bother comparing them to crusade knights, or any other normal human you could cite, especially in this case. You're talking about two of the coldest, stubbornest, most unflinching legions, doing exactly what they were bred, hypno-indoctrinated, and trained to do, against their most hated foe. Psychology would probably play a very minor role in this hypothetical siege because I don't see either side cracking, at all.

With an inability to close off access to a planet (and sans magical warp storms, the Iron Warriors cannot do this)

As I pointed out, they don't need magical warp storms to effectively blockade a planet. It happens in the fluff, you just need a big, competent fleet. But while we're on the subject, the Iron Warriors could in theory rely on a warp storm to help cut off our hypothetical planet. They certainly did it during the heresy (see the Crimson Fist short story), and I wouldn't say it was impossible to pull off again, so that's yet another trick up their sleeve.


I think this is hard to answer without knowing all the ground rules - any fortress can be broken given enough time and resources, so what kind of limits would you apply? Especially considering what's left of the Iron Warriors is easily an order of magnitude larger than the Imperial Fists chapter - are Imperial Fists successor chapters allowed to help break the siege? In the end I voted Iron Warriors simply because I can foresee more possibly scenarios where they win than vice versa.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:
A true siege in the 41st millenium between marines is quite dependant on space superiority, if the fist would still have space superiority they could get supplies down to their fortress while depriving the IWs of their's. Since we assume that the IW are besieging the fists it is safe to assume that space superiority belongs to them. Therefore logistics for the warriors should be an easy problem to solve especially since there, unlike during the siege of Acre, exists fliers making distances irrelevant.

With space marines involved on both sides the psychological problems, such as boredom or despair, is also pretty much inconsequential meaning that both forces fighting till the last drop of blood and the siege having to be resolved by might.

Furthermore the Iron warriors will be fortifying their siege lines to a level where it would be as hard to assault their lines as it would be to assault the IF's fortress. The IW however have the possibilty of getting resuppied whereas the fist's lack this possibility and therefore time is on the traitors' side.

Not even remotely the case where space travel pretty well precludes being able to fully armor up the space around you due to people popping in from no where thanks to the warp. Nothing would prevent the IF 'ground' contingent from being supported from space, even with the IW in 'control' over the planet. Fleets can pop in and have at you with little warning.

Even the most resolute of men still suffer from flagging will to win. Space Marines aren't immune to despair or none of them would have fallen to Chaos. Even when you hate your foes it doesn't make you immune. Knights Templar and Hospitaller made some stupid tactical decisions on occasion because of this, despite being intimately aware of their foes and possessed of a win or die trying mindset that never saw them surrender willingly. If you don't believe many/most of the crusaders were motivated by spiritual reasons you will have an impossible time explaining the People's Crusade or the Children's crusade. Yet even those folks had doubts and failings of faith. People bred from birth to believe, trust, and be blindly devoted to a certain belief style can still falter in the belief they are winning. Shoot, even the Germanic/Scandinavian cultures where death in battle meant you went to heaven and to die of old age was the worst death possible still faltered.

The Iron Warriors may look all super mentally tough on the outside, but they've already abandoned their beliefs once. The cracks are already there.

With an inability to close off access to a planet (and sans magical warp storms, the Iron Warriors cannot do this), they cannot completely cut off all supply and communication lines. Second, what would stop the IF from having underground food and manufacturing facilities to keep their equipment up in a way no current or historical fortress/army could? Any of which saps morale or a total willingness to prosecute the battle in the correct fashion.

I didn't vote, because I don't have an opinion on the winner, but the 'obviously as the besiegers they will win' doesn't work.

I have a few serious quibbles here:

Not even remotely the case where space travel pretty well precludes being able to fully armor up the space around you due to people popping in from no where thanks to the warp. Nothing would prevent the IF 'ground' contingent from being supported from space, even with the IW in 'control' over the planet. Fleets can pop in and have at you with little warning.

Yes fleets can drop out of the warp, but they aren't doing it right above a planet, dropping supplies, and running. Fluff always depicts ships dropping out of the warp fairly far from planets and having to travel in real-space through a system, and the fluff also supports fleets needing to gain and maintain control of the space above planets. EVERY piece of fluff written that I've ever seen suggests the besieged would have resupply issues if the attackers had control of the space above the planet.

Even the most resolute of men still suffer from flagging will to win. Space Marines aren't immune to despair or none of them would have fallen to Chaos. Even when you hate your foes it doesn't make you immune. Knights Templar and Hospitaller ....

Gotta stop you right there. You're right that marines are not totally immune to psychological effects but don't even bother comparing them to crusade knights, or any other normal human you could cite, especially in this case. You're talking about two of the coldest, stubbornest, most unflinching legions, doing exactly what they were bred, hypno-indoctrinated, and trained to do, against their most hated foe. Psychology would probably play a very minor role in this hypothetical siege because I don't see either side cracking, at all.

With an inability to close off access to a planet (and sans magical warp storms, the Iron Warriors cannot do this)

As I pointed out, they don't need magical warp storms to effectively blockade a planet. It happens in the fluff, you just need a big, competent fleet. But while we're on the subject, the Iron Warriors could in theory rely on a warp storm to help cut off our hypothetical planet. They certainly did it during the heresy (see the Crimson Fist short story), and I wouldn't say it was impossible to pull off again, so that's yet another trick up their sleeve.


I think this is hard to answer without knowing all the ground rules - any fortress can be broken given enough time and resources, so what kind of limits would you apply? Especially considering what's left of the Iron Warriors is easily an order of magnitude larger than the Imperial Fists chapter - are Imperial Fists successor chapters allowed to help break the siege? In the end I voted Iron Warriors simply because I can foresee more possibly scenarios where they win than vice versa.

Perfectly valid to use people raised since birth and indoctrinated on all levels to believe a particular way and then place in institutions that further cement that belief by isolating their members from normal society and imposing strict rules upon them designed to foster mental obedience. It isn't about cracking so much as the self belief they will win. In an evenly matched up fight, the self belief of victory is a serious factor in winning. Grumbling about stagnation will set in, even in marines at some point (in particular it could be said of Marines, who are designed to not be stuck fighting over the same piece of real estate for 10-50 years solid, their whole training is against that, after all, that is what guard/cultists are for). Space Marines don't have anything over the various military crusading orders in terms of mental will to fight. They have specialized training methods that allow for enhanced training and knowledge, but going based on 'fluff' 1 Templar was worth at least 10 of his enemy, and would always fight to the last man. It didn't save them at Hattin (being lulled into a trap, then denied water, so dehydrated, exhausted, and knowing they would likely die, perfectly something a Marine could face in this situation).

The fluff is also full of space being a contestable place (Armageddon for example) or foes dropping out of the warp close enough that you cannot completely blockade them. The Orks, as an example, are shown in the Farsight dex to drop out of warp close enough that Farsight cannot shoot them all down before they make planet fall. Unless the IW completely destroy the IF fleet (or vice versa depending on how you want this to play out), block all communications, and magic warp storm the whole area there would be no way to completely cordon off a planet for them.

Caesar built two forts for his final battle with Vercingetorix. One facing the city to ring it in, the other facing outwards to stop the external Gaul forces from hitting him in the back. He was both the besieger and the besieged. This is quite literally the most likely scenario for any besieging force that cannot obliterate the enemy fleet and keep it that way. Suppose a single battle barge makes it out of the main battle. It can contest supply lines for the attacking side almost indefinitely until someone goes to track it down, and if they do, how many ships do they have to withdraw from the blockade allowing for any blockade runners to break through?

Neither the Iron Warriors nor the Imperial Fists have enough man power in and of themselves, solely, to fully blockade a planet.

I would agree, based on simple man power, the Iron Warriors have it, but they have to be able to apply that man power while completely locking up the Imperial Fists en total to the planet or space battle and allowing none to escape.

Ork warp technology is very different to imperial or chaos, orks make use of giant asteroids that they throw randomly into the warp, space marines make use of a more stable version. However the space marine fleet is susceptible to the gravitic pull of the central star and acording to all the fluff I've read on warp travel the star's gravity will cause the transition to or from the warp all but impossible, this means that they have to make the jump many days from the centre of the system. Orks can avoid it due to their fanatical belief in their own supperior technology and the randomness of their warp jumps. The signature of a warp jump is very easy to detect making it almost impossible to surprise a fleet close to the star.

As for the moral issue, I know the medieval knightly orders were tough but they are in nowhere near as though as a space marine. I would say that the knights are close in level of morale to cadian shock troopers or maybe storm troopers who have been training their entire life to fight for the imperium but are still human and nowhere nere the level of might and resilliance as a marine. Many of the Iron warriors have been fighting the imperium and especially the imperial fists for 10 000 years and their only goal in life is to crush the human race for the glory of chaos. The imperial fists on the other hand have been hypnotised to believe in their own superiority, the righteousness of their cause and have been genetically modified to know no fear. I don't think either part will be willing to back down from a head on engagment between two of the greatest rivals in the 41st millenium.

I'm not implying they'll back down. I'm implying they won't always keep their eye on the ball as much as they should.

We're not just talking about physical toughness, so much as ability to stay focused and get the job done.

How long before the extremely bitter rivalry plays out in stupid ways (such as charging a position you might otherwise not charge)? Particularly when both parties are known for being stupid about such things.

The Imperial Fists, in particular, are known to be stupidly stoic. Gutting it out rather than a tactical withdrawl to come back with a better plan. It's like their defining characteristic, to make the glory play over the intelligent play.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
The Iron Warriors may look all super mentally tough on the outside, but they've already abandoned their beliefs once. The cracks are already there.

Another excellent point. No one can accuse the Imperial Fists of morale deficiency.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
I'm not implying they'll back down. I'm implying they won't always keep their eye on the ball as much as they should.

We're not just talking about physical toughness, so much as ability to stay focused and get the job done.

How long before the extremely bitter rivalry plays out in stupid ways (such as charging a position you might otherwise not charge)? Particularly when both parties are known for being stupid about such things.

The Imperial Fists, in particular, are known to be stupidly stoic. Gutting it out rather than a tactical withdrawl to come back with a better plan. It's like their defining characteristic, to make the glory play over the intelligent play.

Well it's about the physical AND mental toughness that marines are reputed to have. I don't think in this situation either side would crack or falter due to simple hardship of any kind. But playing on psychology to force a mistake from your opponent is totally valid here. Heck, the Iron Warriors seem to have a hobby of trolling the Imperial Fists and forcing errors. But this is different than a comparison to crusading knights having doubts about their victory. Both of these armies in particular take pride in their siege-work, whether attacking or defending, and I would fully expect them to fight as hard as they could down to the last bolter round if ordered to do so.

I agree that the most likely scenario is a siege-within-a-siege with the Iron Warriors surrounding the fortress(es) and blockading the planet, with a relief force attempting to break the siege and trapping the Iron Warriors in-system. For the purposes of the question, I assume the entire Imperial Fists chapter has somehow been caught in their fortresses on some planet, heavily outnumbered by Iron Warriors, with a number of Imperial Fists successor chapters showing up to break the siege and balance things in terms of strength. Just say the Fists have access to as many auxiliaries as the Iron Warriors, and overall strength is roughly equal.

Likely outcome, in my opinion, is that if this somehow happened, the Iron Warriors would have the advantage at first through overwhelming application of force against the Fists, but the Fists would be able to hold out long enough for reinforcements to besiege the besiegers. The various Iron Warrior Great Companies would maintain unit out of sheer hatred for the Fists. The result would be a pyrrhic victory by a narrow margin, with the fortresses reduced and the Imperial Fists all but destroyed, but at enormous cost to the Iron Warriors, not many of whom would escape.

Which is why this would never happen in the first place - the IW may hate the IF, but they care more about surviving to troll another day

 kinratha wrote:
I voted IF...but The real winner isn't up there, the ture victor would be Dkok.

This. The DKoK laugh at the children playing with their toys and then demonstrate how a real siege is done.

See, I'm interested in this Siege within a Siege lark. See, if all the Dorn-child fleets showed up, that is, the Successors and the IF fleet itself, it would easily outnumber the IW. The IWs have what? 10k something marines and equivilent fleets? The Black Templars have 6 000 themselves. Then there is the IF fleet, the Iron Knights, the Crimson Fists (depending on Timeline they may or may not). Then there is the White Templars, Red Templars, Invaders, Celestial Lions, Crusaders of Dorn, Crimson Axes, Death Strike, Emperor's Warbringers, Excoriators, Executioners, Fire Lords, Hammers of Dorn, Iron Champions, Knights of Dorn, Sons of Dorn, Night Swords, Subjugators and Venom Thorns. As I understand the Soul Drinkers are now renegade and wouldn't be welcome as a relief force, but if push comes to shove they may prioritise their Primarchial loyalty and hatred of the IV Legion as bred into them as the sons of Rogal Dorn.


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And the boot, I'm pretty sure the Imperial Navy would chuck their hat into the Ring, and if Daemons or Daemon Engines showed their mugs I'm sure the GK would come knocking. Not to mention the Inquisition to capture traitors for penance/torture/interrogation. And I'd put money on the Dark Angels and their successors looking for a Fallen in the mess. Then there'd be the Minotaurs "Checking in" to make sure no marines turn in that Chaotic turmoil. And I'm sure other Chapters in the area would come around. The Imperial Fists might ask a favour off the Ultramarines or Space Wolves. And the Imperial Guard will undoubtably arrive in some form or another. Then the PDF.

*Grabs popcorn* there's nothing better than watching loyalist fanboys and chaos fanboys fight!

 Deadshot wrote:
See, I'm interested in this Siege within a Siege lark. See, if all the Dorn-child fleets showed up, that is, the Successors and the IF fleet itself, it would easily outnumber the IW. The IWs have what? 10k something marines and equivilent fleets? The Black Templars have 6 000 themselves. Then there is the IF fleet, the Iron Knights, the Crimson Fists (depending on Timeline they may or may not). Then there is the White Templars, Red Templars, Invaders, Celestial Lions, Crusaders of Dorn, Crimson Axes, Death Strike, Emperor's Warbringers, Excoriators, Executioners, Fire Lords, Hammers of Dorn, Iron Champions, Knights of Dorn, Sons of Dorn, Night Swords, Subjugators and Venom Thorns. As I understand the Soul Drinkers are now renegade and wouldn't be welcome as a relief force, but if push comes to shove they may prioritise their Primarchial loyalty and hatred of the IV Legion as bred into them as the sons of Rogal Dorn.


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And the boot, I'm pretty sure the Imperial Navy would chuck their hat into the Ring, and if Daemons or Daemon Engines showed their mugs I'm sure the GK would come knocking. Not to mention the Inquisition to capture traitors for penance/torture/interrogation. And I'd put money on the Dark Angels and their successors looking for a Fallen in the mess. Then there'd be the Minotaurs "Checking in" to make sure no marines turn in that Chaotic turmoil. And I'm sure other Chapters in the area would come around. The Imperial Fists might ask a favour off the Ultramarines or Space Wolves. And the Imperial Guard will undoubtably arrive in some form or another. Then the PDF.

And then the Tau could show up, and they'll call in a favor with the Eldar... lol. This was between rival chapters, Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors.

Since I have yet to see much concession from the Loyalists as to the limits of their species, can I ask this question to just set the bar for all other discussions? Do you think the Imperium will defeat Chaos? Do you think the Imperium will maintain control of the universe?

If you said yes to either of those, I think you are a little delusional, however it is every bit of possible that you know something I do not. That said, just taken from the fundamental nature of things, it seems entirely impossible that Chaos could either be defeated (macro) or eliminated entirely, especially considering the objectives of Chaos are often times completely irreconcilable with Real Space such as the Scouring of Omegath or perhaps the Changelings spoor within the Gray Knight, Brother Brutus. If Man does not lose Terra or the Emperor returns to magically set things right, I think I'd lose a little respect for the writing. Does this mean Man has to be completely wiped out? No. I've said this in other threads, I think that actually makes humanity more interesting by making these Chapters survive from their homeworlds and adapt differently. Instead of "living in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable," maybe humanity does some real politicking with correctly asserted, socially beneficial Space Marine leadership, instead of servitude. Make the kids toughen up a little bit and take their inevitable defeat as a sign of great things to come. I know k-os certainly is. >D Like our loyalist counterparts in this scenario, I feel "the bad guys" shine brightest when they have glutted their ego's with ideas of superiority, only to have it usurped by the good guys.

Which is why the Iron Warriors have to kill Dorn...if he's not already dead. ;>>

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
See, I'm interested in this Siege within a Siege lark. See, if all the Dorn-child fleets showed up, that is, the Successors and the IF fleet itself, it would easily outnumber the IW. The IWs have what? 10k something marines and equivilent fleets? The Black Templars have 6 000 themselves. Then there is the IF fleet, the Iron Knights, the Crimson Fists (depending on Timeline they may or may not). Then there is the White Templars, Red Templars, Invaders, Celestial Lions, Crusaders of Dorn, Crimson Axes, Death Strike, Emperor's Warbringers, Excoriators, Executioners, Fire Lords, Hammers of Dorn, Iron Champions, Knights of Dorn, Sons of Dorn, Night Swords, Subjugators and Venom Thorns. As I understand the Soul Drinkers are now renegade and wouldn't be welcome as a relief force, but if push comes to shove they may prioritise their Primarchial loyalty and hatred of the IV Legion as bred into them as the sons of Rogal Dorn.


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And the boot, I'm pretty sure the Imperial Navy would chuck their hat into the Ring, and if Daemons or Daemon Engines showed their mugs I'm sure the GK would come knocking. Not to mention the Inquisition to capture traitors for penance/torture/interrogation. And I'd put money on the Dark Angels and their successors looking for a Fallen in the mess. Then there'd be the Minotaurs "Checking in" to make sure no marines turn in that Chaotic turmoil. And I'm sure other Chapters in the area would come around. The Imperial Fists might ask a favour off the Ultramarines or Space Wolves. And the Imperial Guard will undoubtably arrive in some form or another. Then the PDF.

And then the Tau could show up, and they'll call in a favor with the Eldar... lol. This was between rival chapters, Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors.

Since I have yet to see much concession from the Loyalists as to the limits of their species, can I ask this question to just set the bar for all other discussions? Do you think the Imperium will defeat Chaos? Do you think the Imperium will maintain control of the universe?

If you said yes to either of those, I think you are a little delusional, however it is every bit of possible that you know something I do not. That said, just taken from the fundamental nature of things, it seems entirely impossible that Chaos could either be defeated (macro) or eliminated entirely, especially considering the objectives of Chaos are often times completely irreconcilable with Real Space such as the Scouring of Omegath or perhaps the Changelings spoor within the Gray Knight, Brother Brutus. If Man does not lose Terra or the Emperor returns to magically set things right, I think I'd lose a little respect for the writing. Does this mean Man has to be completely wiped out? No. I've said this in other threads, I think that actually makes humanity more interesting by making these Chapters survive from their homeworlds and adapt differently. Instead of "living in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable," maybe humanity does some real politicking with correctly asserted, socially beneficial Space Marine leadership, instead of servitude. Make the kids toughen up a little bit and take their inevitable defeat as a sign of great things to come. I know k-os certainly is. >D Like our loyalist counterparts in this scenario, I feel "the bad guys" shine brightest when they have glutted their ego's with ideas of superiority, only to have it usurped by the good guys.

Which is why the Iron Warriors have to kill Dorn...if he's not already dead. ;>>

I'm only trying to even things up. The IWs are still a Legion and the IF are a tenth of that, a Chapter. In the interest of fair examination, the IF should get their successors to help them. The IW also get Cultists and a larger, unrestricted fleet. And Daemons/ Engines so the GK even that up and the Imperial Guard even up the Cultists. I'm only making it a fair test. If it were just the IF chapter vs the IW Legion, no contest.

I vote IF on this one.

In Storm of Iron a mere handful of Fists are able to assist the forces at Hydra Cordatus and delay the inevitable by a large margin. The Iron Warriors are masters of Siege Craft and the fortress would eventually fall. However, the self preservation, personal agenda and rivalry amongst the sons of Perturabo would be major factors in the IF eventually gaining victory, having caused the siege to be a protracted battle where they would not be sure who they could trust, constantly looking for that knife in the Dark.

Dead Sky, Black Sun and Angel Exterminatus have great examples of this rivalry taking form.

I also believe that the Iron Warriors do not have it in them to take the final plunge and finish off the Fists and past losses have greatly impaired their ability too see a battle through to the bitter end.

it really could go eaither way. Both IWs and IFs have gotten their licks in pretty solidly against the other in the past. and there's no CLEAR superior (which is why the entire rivalry exists in the first place. if one of the two was clearly the superior the rivalry wouldn't exist)
the arguement that the IWs are a legion and thus numerically superior doesn't old water. because we know the legions have splintered into war bands.


yes IWs have their deamon engines etc. but they also have the nasty realty of chaos. they're MUCH more vunerable to infighting. something that could cause problems for them in a long seige.
basicly, iron warriors vs imp fists is a pretty even match and it'd require localized things like which enemy commander is better etc to really weigh anything.

That said it's worth noting that seiges tend, by their nature, to be uneven battles.

I really hate to see all these posts pointing at the books and going "A handful of marines hindered whole armies" etc. The books tend to suffer from the same issue as say, the Ultramarines movie.

They are have plot armor, and the fact that despite this being a "grimdark" universe, the loyalist space marines being one of the most popular faction as well as the tendency for most books to be published from the more humanizing perspective of "the good guys", tends to skew the outcome of many of the novels.

Typical plot structure involves a conflict, resolution, hero and a villain. Granted the book doesn't always end with the hero running off into the sunset to go praise the Emphra and practice his shoulder pad buffing, but usually the evil somehow gets its just desserts, whether it be the case and point in most scenarios involving Chaos in WHFB where the sudden infighting erupts and dissolves the entire BBG's army at the pinnacle of his victory, or somebody like Grimgor comes in just for the sake of slapping around the Everchosen.

Other good examples are things like the Siege of Vraks etc. If you really need any examples of the loyalists/Guard beating up anything that doens't fit the remotely human, just pick up a Black Library book.(While I make the stretch to consider SM somewhat human, CSM is by far not. They are far less inclined to follow anything remotely human like morals, honor or even loyalty.)

But thrown between the two, the entire scenario would be entirely dependent on what form of siege is at stake here.

If this was a no holds barred, there is no backup coming, I think this would grind to a stalemate fast between the two, the IW have the edge on numbers likely, but in a siege you can only commit so many units to breaching, where as the defenders are able to be much more spread out. The winner in most scenarios would be whoever has the advantage of numbers, firepower and supplies as well as time. In a siege, you are not only fighting to break the fortress(Whether physically or mentally) you are besieging, but the time it would take to correlate a response and relieve the besieged by any allies who will respond. Any massive chaos incursion like this is bound to attract quite a bit of attention without some strong intervention by the Dark Gods.

(Edit Note: Just deserts....really brain?)

 Deadshot wrote:
Well remember the Siege of Terra?

Yep. The Iron Warriors sure did knock down Dorn's little walls.

The Emperor and Dorn capitalized on Horus' little idiotic gesture (Lowering his ship's shields) for a reason. If they didn't, they would have lost.

Lord of Lustria wrote:
By the way when I said fair and even I only meant no saboteur traitors in the fortress and equal numbers. Any dirty tactic the IW and IF can think of is fair game!

Don't know a whole lot about siege warfare, do you?

Giving them equal numbers is the equivalent of saying "Oh by the way no matter what arguments you guys come up with the besiegers lose".

Committing to a siege without at least ten times the number of the enemy is suicide, unless the enemy commander is extraordinarily incompetent, which the Imperial Fists are not.

 deadrifler wrote:
I really hate to see all these posts pointing at the books and going "A handful of marines hindered whole armies" etc. The books tend to suffer from the same issue as say, the Ultramarines movie.

They are have plot armor, and the fact that despite this being a "grimdark" universe, the loyalist space marines being one of the most popular faction as well as the tendency for most books to be published from the more humanizing perspective of "the good guys", tends to skew the outcome of many of the novels.

Typical plot structure involves a conflict, resolution, hero and a villain. Granted the book doesn't always end with the hero running off into the sunset to go praise the Emphra and practice his shoulder pad buffing, but usually the evil somehow gets its just desserts, whether it be the case and point in most scenarios involving Chaos in WHFB where the sudden infighting erupts and dissolves the entire BBG's army at the pinnacle of his victory, or somebody like Grimgor comes in just for the sake of slapping around the Everchosen.

But it is a good example of how capable the Space Marine are and they eventually do get their comeuppance at the hands of the Iron Warriors. There is no doubt that they would meet defeat but the expertise of the Fists in this situation proved invaluable to the defence of Hydra Cordatus, but it was not achieved by them alone, it was their presence and knowledge that assisted the forces there which they were defending with. True, in regards to the plot armour, but Storm of Iron is definitely an Iron Warriors book, showing their prowess and tactical capability as much as it does the Fists. It's probably one of the best examples of just how good both are at what they do.

I'm going to stand by the Iron Warriors new-found Daemonforges to the deciding factor here. In fact, I'll take it a step further and say that the Warp itself is what would ultimately define this battle. At first, I was prepared to leave the Daemons out of this argument, however, upon further review of my Chaos Codex, I have found a number of instances that suggest a siege between the IW and IF would be more than troops crashing the walls and cannonade crushing the tectonic plates of the planet to dust.

Quick Side Note: That is what they did to Terra. So, I'll argue that if the planet that an IF fortress is on (short ofthe Planet Fortress itself, but then we can talk about the Blackstone Fortresses then) cannot survive the siege, then neither can the fort.

I digress though: Instances in the 40k that show this rivalry started in the 30k as different.

c.400.M32: Perturabo's Plague: The Daemon Primarch Perturabo perverts the eight rituals of possession, turning them against his enemies. Invoking Nurgle, Perturabo imbues his curse with extreme contagion and releases it into the mechanical systems of Toil, a vassal forge world. The raw Chaos spreads through the machines, and the hidden manufactorums begin to change. On the eighth day, giant cables burst from the earth, daemonic machines hunt the living, and many legged cathedrals of industry prowl the wastes. The planet is ultimately scoured of all native flesh.

^So...about that fortress?

And here is something else to consider when we're talking about what forces are actually enacted here: It has been suggested that the Imperial Fists wouldn't just be the Imperial Fists. That because IW have Daemonengines, the Grey Knights will be put in. Or if IW Cultists are there, then IG will pile in. But that's not quiet accurate for there isn't a division between IW cultists, daemon hosts, Warsmith hosts, etc. etc. etc.

The IW consist of cultists, daemon engines and their troops and machines. That IS the Iron Warriors. They don't have sub-divisions the same way the IF were forced to do after the Heresy. Yes, this makes the fighting uneven, but the Imperium did that to themselves and for a very good reason: The last time they left the Primarchs in charge, half of them turned to Chaos, including the Warmaster.

Notice I left "Daemons" off, because to me that is the equivalent of the IF bringing all of their Baby Fists and IG contingents and blah-blah. But Daemon engines? Well, it's not even accurate to say Grey Knights would come in to help out. If we're going that route, the Mechanicum of Mars is what shows up in that case, but even the Mechanicum dictates that what the Iron Warriors have achieved is what they wish to accomplish through the Omnissiah/Machine Spirits.

Something else to consider when we're talking about the introduction of all these additional Chapters to help in the fighting is that you also expand the Sphere of Command as well. So, instead of just having Dorn at the head of the IF, you've got the Emperors Champion at the head of the Black Templar issuing orders, and so on and so forth. To that degree, too many chiefs could be problematic for maintaining battlefield cohesion.

Ugh...too tired. Hopefully this added some weight to the discussion and doesn't come off as more Fanboy-dom.

Iron Warriors defeated the Fists in every engagement they've had. Siege of Terra and the Cage. Nuff said.

Iron warriors would have lost the Cage, and the only reason they even breachd the castle was due out numbering them (legions alone) by double, not counting any army guys or tanks/ the like. and even then the champion from IF beat the crap out of every single enemy commander he fought. and to be fair, they NEVER TOOK the palace.

I think it would have to go to the IFs but that is also somewhat dependent on what era we are talking about. If we are talking legions than the Iron Warriors may have the advantage just because they would have much stronger coherency and leadership combined with a waac mind set. Post heresy though i think the Iron Warriors would not do as well because a warsmith can only inspire threaten so much before your warriors start to seriously consider promoting themselves to his position. Also the Iron Warriors may be crazy but they are not stupid and probably would not sacrifice every last man in an attempt to prove a point like the Imperial Fists would.

Honestly, in the siege warfare the iron warriors partake in (bombing the fortress into submission from miles away before the assault) I'm not so sure even numbers isn't fair, though you are right that mortal soldiers may want to have a pretty sizable advantage in numbers. Also, any earthworks the iron warriors construct are pretty darn impressive often giving as much, if not more protection than any fortress wall.

 raiden wrote:
Iron warriors would have lost the Cage

No.

Guilliman needed to bail Dorny-boy out.

Perturabo was toying with Dorn's forces, deliberately prolonging their humiliation and suffering.

Dorn was arguably insane at the time.

 Deadshot wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
See, I'm interested in this Siege within a Siege lark. See, if all the Dorn-child fleets showed up, that is, the Successors and the IF fleet itself, it would easily outnumber the IW. The IWs have what? 10k something marines and equivilent fleets? The Black Templars have 6 000 themselves. Then there is the IF fleet, the Iron Knights, the Crimson Fists (depending on Timeline they may or may not). Then there is the White Templars, Red Templars, Invaders, Celestial Lions, Crusaders of Dorn, Crimson Axes, Death Strike, Emperor's Warbringers, Excoriators, Executioners, Fire Lords, Hammers of Dorn, Iron Champions, Knights of Dorn, Sons of Dorn, Night Swords, Subjugators and Venom Thorns. As I understand the Soul Drinkers are now renegade and wouldn't be welcome as a relief force, but if push comes to shove they may prioritise their Primarchial loyalty and hatred of the IV Legion as bred into them as the sons of Rogal Dorn.


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And the boot, I'm pretty sure the Imperial Navy would chuck their hat into the Ring, and if Daemons or Daemon Engines showed their mugs I'm sure the GK would come knocking. Not to mention the Inquisition to capture traitors for penance/torture/interrogation. And I'd put money on the Dark Angels and their successors looking for a Fallen in the mess. Then there'd be the Minotaurs "Checking in" to make sure no marines turn in that Chaotic turmoil. And I'm sure other Chapters in the area would come around. The Imperial Fists might ask a favour off the Ultramarines or Space Wolves. And the Imperial Guard will undoubtably arrive in some form or another. Then the PDF.

And then the Tau could show up, and they'll call in a favor with the Eldar... lol. This was between rival chapters, Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors.

Since I have yet to see much concession from the Loyalists as to the limits of their species, can I ask this question to just set the bar for all other discussions? Do you think the Imperium will defeat Chaos? Do you think the Imperium will maintain control of the universe?

If you said yes to either of those, I think you are a little delusional, however it is every bit of possible that you know something I do not. That said, just taken from the fundamental nature of things, it seems entirely impossible that Chaos could either be defeated (macro) or eliminated entirely, especially considering the objectives of Chaos are often times completely irreconcilable with Real Space such as the Scouring of Omegath or perhaps the Changelings spoor within the Gray Knight, Brother Brutus. If Man does not lose Terra or the Emperor returns to magically set things right, I think I'd lose a little respect for the writing. Does this mean Man has to be completely wiped out? No. I've said this in other threads, I think that actually makes humanity more interesting by making these Chapters survive from their homeworlds and adapt differently. Instead of "living in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable," maybe humanity does some real politicking with correctly asserted, socially beneficial Space Marine leadership, instead of servitude. Make the kids toughen up a little bit and take their inevitable defeat as a sign of great things to come. I know k-os certainly is. >D Like our loyalist counterparts in this scenario, I feel "the bad guys" shine brightest when they have glutted their ego's with ideas of superiority, only to have it usurped by the good guys.

Which is why the Iron Warriors have to kill Dorn...if he's not already dead. ;>>

I'm only trying to even things up. The IWs are still a Legion and the IF are a tenth of that, a Chapter. In the interest of fair examination, the IF should get their successors to help them. The IW also get Cultists and a larger, unrestricted fleet. And Daemons/ Engines so the GK even that up and the Imperial Guard even up the Cultists. I'm only making it a fair test. If it were just the IF chapter vs the IW Legion, no contest.

OK first, I don't think there are any concrete numbers on how many Iron Warriors remain, but saying the Fists are 1/10th of that number is probably generous towards the Fists. The legions were typically 100,000 strong during the Great Crusade. They took major casualties and plenty of warbands have split off, but they've also recruited heavily since then, and they retained a greater degree of unity than most other traitor legions. Perturabo is still around (although he doesn't come out to play often), and the Iron Warriors still have functioning Great Companies, which are each roughly chapter-strength. They also work alongside traitor titans so often they may as well be part of the legion. I think 10,000 Iron Warriors would be a very, very low-ball estimate of how many are still around.

So like I said earlier, it's really crucial to draw up some ground rules on who gets to be part of this fight. If the Iron Warriors are going all-out you're looking at tens of thousands of marines, plus lots of auxiliaries including titans, plus possibly a friggin' primarch. If it's just the Fists it's a bit silly, but you can't go crazy by inviting the whole Imperium to fight too. So sticking to successors, you could draw from Second Founding chapters (which nets you two or possibly three other chapters) or call on any of their descendants (which could be like 200 chapters). I think you have to go somewhere in between and give both sides roughly equal forces or else this whole discussion is pointless.

I have always known the Legions to be 10, 000 strong, with the exception of the Ultramarines who were much larger.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 raiden wrote:
Iron warriors would have lost the Cage

No.

Guilliman needed to bail Dorny-boy out.

Perturabo was toying with Dorn's forces, deliberately prolonging their humiliation and suffering.

pfft, he couldn't kill them off without wiping his own forces out, and was to scared to commit to that.

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn was arguably insane at the time.

Dorn has arguably been insane his entire life.


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 Deadshot wrote:
I have always known the Legions to be 10, 000 strong, with the exception of the Ultramarines who were much larger.

The new number is 100,000. The Ultramarines are particularly huge at 250,000.

A step in the right direction, but still realistically too small for the endeavor they have taken, so eh.


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 raiden wrote:

pfft, he couldn't kill them off without wiping his own forces out, and was to scared to commit to that.

He could easily have killed them, were he not such a sadist towards Dorn.

Perturabo is a better general than Dorn, who has lost every engagement we see him in (That I recall anyway), except, ironically, the one he died in.

Fair enough, but even still, my point still stands. The IF side being limited to just their own singular chapter wouldn't make a dent in the IWs. They need their successors to even hold a candle.

The thread maker gave both sides equal numbers.

Actually reading the thread does wonders.

Granted, that does mean the IF have a substantial advantage due to the nature of siege warfare, but that is neither here nor there.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn was arguably insane at the time.

Dorn has arguably been insane his entire life.

True but he was especially nutso at the Cage.

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn was arguably insane at the time.

Dorn was unarguably insane the whole time.

Dammit, beaten to it, lol.

Dorn is a genius. so much Dorn hating in this thread. Perturabo talked to a freaking painting made of blood and poo. . I agree he was a better swordsman and duelist than Dorn, but I don't quite see where he is a better tactical mind, and the fluff in my book clearly states that IW couldn't wipe them out without risking being wiped out themselves, so basically a stalemate

 raiden wrote:
Dorn is a genius. so much Dorn hating in this thread. Perturabo talked to a freaking painting made of blood and poo. . I agree he was a better swordsman and duelist than Dorn, but I don't quite see where he is a better tactical mind, and the fluff in my book clearly states that IW couldn't wipe them out without risking being wiped out themselves, so basically a stalemate

Are you on drugs?

Dorn was pretty much slowed from every account we have on him, and all he ever does is get his ass kicked.

You are talking about Fulgrim.

Perturabo was clearly the superior general... since he actually, you know, commanded an army of conquest, rather than warming the bench on Terra.

whoops, I am not to savvy on remember which chaos primarchs did what, they are all traitors and should be wiped from history . on another note, I have never read much about dorn "losing". hell its said he had the greatest military minds of all the primarchs (even more so than big old papa smurf guilliman) of course, I haven't read much about him WINNING either haha.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
The thread maker gave both sides equal numbers.

Actually reading the thread does wonders.

Granted, that does mean the IF have a substantial advantage due to the nature of siege warfare, but that is neither here nor there.

Not kicking sand or anything, but the circumstances (or I should say the flow of the conversation) has moved beyond those limited and flawed parameters, because like you said, even sides in siege warfare is not even at all, since the very nature of the siege is greater outer numbers breaking into smaller, inner numbers. That said, the paramaters seem to have expanded to at least this:

Daemon Primarch-fiend Perturabo and Loyalist Primarchitect Dorn are there.
The IW and IF are doing what they do best; Sieging and being sieged (respectively).
Because of the nature of siege warfare, and because of the limitations placed on Loyalist Chapters v. the relatively rampant nature of Chaos Legions, it is clear that the IW are holding a numerical advantage, while the IF hold the advantage of fighting on their own turf, i.e. a fort of some kind. Let's go a step further and say the planet and fortress are one in the same.
It is IW at their daemon heritage v. the IF (and only the IF, though I might be willing to accept Black Templars, since it was my understanding that the Black Templars practically are what's left of the IF) at their finest.
All things considered, we are talking all qualifications met to consider this an official siege, which includes supply lines being cut off, or at the least, seriously harassed.

I know this seems like stacking against the guys I don't like, but I think this is the "epic" battle suggested by OP. Not this 200+ chapters + Gray Knights + Mechanicum Titans + the Emperor all show up to nuke Perturabo's iron face. Just a good ol' fashioned grudge match.

That said, if it's true Dorn is dead and he lost a lot of battles to his temper and Perturabo's ability to play at that temper, then the IF have already lost. Like I said though, it could happen no other way for without the loss of Dorn, would there be these other 200+ chapter contingents to draw upon? Or the legacy and lore of the Primarchs? Or any of the awesomesauce we are currently enjoying?

Sometimes the good guys have to lose in order to stop losing and start being awesome again. The good guy who never loses is boring and stupid. That's why so many people like Batman. He's fubar in the head from failing enough times.

With love, the Corpse-God and his Boy Scouts must die, if only to be reborn as the harbingers of doom for my brother-Chaos.

 Omegus wrote:
Iron Warriors defeated the Fists in every engagement they've had. Siege of Terra and the Cage. Nuff said.

not true

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

atlervetok wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
The Besieged typically lose to the Siege-r, for this reason alone: Whoever is held up in their fortress have to deal with dwindling supplies unless a supply route is secured, which is typically impossible in a siege scenario. There is also the problem with getting supplies that haven't been sabotaged as well. All the while, trying to keep your own walls from imploding.

Another good reason to say the Iron Warriors will ultimately win the siege? Daemons and Daemon engines. The Machine Spirit is no match to the foul works of the Warpsmiths. +__+

can i ask you why you think the besieged normally lose?
normally its the besieger who loses for one reason or the other thats why id have to give my vote to the imperial fists

Because we are not still building castles? "Laying siege" in the days of modern warfare takes on a whole new meaning, starting with the advent of the Cannonball. Essentially, the lesson learned was that it was better to be flexible and mobile than stagnant and grounded, though a fortified position was certainly an asset for individual combat. Sustained bombardment, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.

i suppose it depends what method is being used but a siege does not mean a castle
the siege of bastogne for example

The Death Korps would win.

Kriegers are the best at Siege warfare.

Enough heavy guns to grind any fortress to dust. Enough Boots to do the same...

atlervetok wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

atlervetok wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
The Besieged typically lose to the Siege-r, for this reason alone: Whoever is held up in their fortress have to deal with dwindling supplies unless a supply route is secured, which is typically impossible in a siege scenario. There is also the problem with getting supplies that haven't been sabotaged as well. All the while, trying to keep your own walls from imploding.

Another good reason to say the Iron Warriors will ultimately win the siege? Daemons and Daemon engines. The Machine Spirit is no match to the foul works of the Warpsmiths. +__+

can i ask you why you think the besieged normally lose?
normally its the besieger who loses for one reason or the other thats why id have to give my vote to the imperial fists

Because we are not still building castles? "Laying siege" in the days of modern warfare takes on a whole new meaning, starting with the advent of the Cannonball. Essentially, the lesson learned was that it was better to be flexible and mobile than stagnant and grounded, though a fortified position was certainly an asset for individual combat. Sustained bombardment, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.

i suppose it depends what method is being used but a siege does not mean a castle
the siege of bastogne for example

Agreed, however taken the example you mentioned and compare to the current goings on of IF (fortress builders) v. IW (fortress breakers). And as technology rises, the likely hood of a "siege" lessens. For example, the last "modern" siege we had was the Bombing of Baghdad by US forces, and that wasn't even a siege because, like war, "siege" implies that there are two armies involved... in the Bombing of Baghdad, there was only 1. The US.

But you illustrate WHY the siege and fortress structure is not entirely valid anymore as a means of waging war, although there are a number of reasons why (first and foremost being infiltration and sabotage are much easier than brute force tactics, at times): It's easier to hold a complex of structures you can hide in, rather than a centralized stronghold. Another reason why the fortress gets abandoned for mobile tactics? The Sapper ensured that the walls of a fortress never stood, and that the sappers themselves were relatively untouchable (short of digging a moat, which could still be drained). That being said, this tactic can be abandoned if we're talking about IF fortress planet (cause there is nothing to dig under) however, I feel like in even that scenario, Daemon Engines become then biggest prominent threat. Or more specifically, possession of IF machinery by Perturabo's Plague. +__+

Iron Warriors gets my vote.

dem troll-tastic tin cans...

As much as I would like to say Imperial Fists, they probably couldn't last against the sheer brutality of the Iron Warriors, who go to any lengths to win.

DKoK of course! Yeah sure individually each of your dudes is better. Yeah sure IW have stupidly broken daemonic machines that will slaughter thousands of IG.... buuuut they'll just throw more bodies and guns at you until you die drowned in bodies!

Oh hey look another edgy and original poster who responds to an Imperial Fists vs. Iron Warriors thread with the Death Korps of Krieg. Charming.

Does an edgy and thought provoking comment about how this was all an alpha legion scheme that intends to destroy both forces, for whatever far fetched reason for them to be involved work?

But in all seriousness, I think it would depend on who was leading each of the forces, and whether or not the powers of chaos had some ulterior motive or not ( like in that short story with lysander, the two space stations and the nasty IW fellow).

Also what about switching the roles? IF besieging the IW. who would win then?

Perturabo. Case closed.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Also what about switching the roles? IF besieging the IW. who would win then?

That is a curious situation, but I think they would both be equally incompetent to those tasks. That said, I think it would be more likely that the IW would build up a fake strong point for the IF to take, then abandon it with a fair amount of trolling, before trapping the IF in their fake fortress and then laying waste to the whole thing.

And what ISN'T a Alpha Legion plot?

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Also what about switching the roles? IF besieging the IW. who would win then?

That is a curious situation, but I think they would both be equally incompetent to those tasks. That said, I think it would be more likely that the IW would build up a fake strong point for the IF to take, then abandon it with a fair amount of trolling, before trapping the IF in their fake fortress and then laying waste to the whole thing.

And what ISN'T a Alpha Legion plot?

Didn't that already happen?

Lord of Lustria wrote:
In a relatively fair and even siege would the iron warriors or imperial fists win if the iron warriors layed siege to an IF citadel? Discuss.

Iron warriors

The imperial Fists are stubborn bastards who happen to be good at siege warfare the Iron warriors activelly work to master siege warfare.

IMPERIAL FISTS, cuz angreh mahreens

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

Also what about switching the roles? IF besieging the IW. who would win then?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_cage#.UnVdaOLZi8Y

 Crickate wrote:
As much as I would like to say Imperial Fists, they probably couldn't last against the sheer brutality of the Iron Warriors, who go to any lengths to win.

Except killing a quite obviously round the bend Fulgrim and the rest of the Emperor's Children. CONSORTING WITH XENOS!

This question cannot be answered with logic. But then again, who needs logic?

Iron within!

 Dantioch wrote:

 raiden wrote:
IF would have secured those supply routes, if they even need them. Remember the IF don't even need their whole legion/chapter to hold a fortress, they use few defenders and keep the rest as a mobile strike force. As a matter of fact, fluff wise everything points towards IF being the much better siege masters. (even horus himself)

IF were busting up the Iron warriors BEST fortress trap, without ANY planning at all... imagine if they had actually planned a strategic attack

If you'r refering to te Iron cage incident I don't think it was a walk in the park for the Imperial fists, couple of hundreds of marines dying for no real victory and having to be saved by the Ultramarines is hardly an easy victory.

As for the question itself Ihave to go with the fourth legion simply due to the nature of siege warfare, besiegers can always cut the supply line at which point it's only a matter of time before there is no more food and ammunition. Secondly, no matter how well you build your walls, sooner or later a part of it is going to collapse from enough shelling. And thirdly the Iron warriors legion is still a legion not a chapter, ie they can field a much larger number of marines as well as slaves and traitor guard while the imperial fists are stuck at slightly less than a thuosand marines.

And yes I know that the fists could field imperial guard soldiers and PDF forces as well, but I would argue that it's not the same as the IW slaves and traitor guard as the IG and PDF follow a separate command chain and can never be a permanent part of the fist army whereas the slaves are fully dependant and subservient to the fourth legion.

'relatively even'
As in: Same number of marines/support units, not the 1000 marines vs a legion xD

At VD and Redwing, I wasn't talking about it in an iron cage sense, more along the lines of what if the IW were really besieged? Not come at me bro and then taunt him mercilessly until he rushes into a fortification without really thinking about it, I mean if thats all it takes for Dorn to become a blundering idiot, I'm surprised he even made it to the horus heresy, although being sat at terra probably helped.

Dorn knew what it was. Knew what would happen. And did it anyway to avoid civil war again because his legion didn't want to split up.

So he intentionally bum rushed an 'obvious' trap just to get Guilliuman to pull his backside out? So that he could say "listen guys, the ultramarines really saved us back there, maybe we should follow their ideas, and split into smaller forces.

Just reread the iron cage, jeez I mean "I didn't originally like the codex idea, so now that I do my legion also has to suffer" good going Dorn, really doing well to cement your character as reliable and level headed.

No. He lead them into a (rather successful bum rush considering) of the trap as a purge through pain type thing. He lessened the number of his legion so it would be easier for his mean to split. Either way if the ultras had not stopped both sides were heading towards being wiped out.

How was it successful? Sure he ended up with a smaller hardened group, But he's a Primarch for crying out loud, he could have just said "look, I made a mistake and we are going to split the legion", it says that his captain weren't happy with being there but loyally stood by him, if they were so loyal I think they could have accepted being split up without a large number of them being murdered and helping perturabo to reach daemonhood.

And to be honest the whole "I made a mistake by not accepting the codex, so the whole legion has to undergo 'group' pain glove exercises" is pretty stupid as a decision, it might just be the part of me that really likes the AL and RG talking.

 raiden wrote:
No. He lead them into a (rather successful bum rush considering) of the trap as a purge through pain type thing. He lessened the number of his legion so it would be easier for his mean to split. Either way if the ultras had not stopped both sides were heading towards being wiped out.

Holy feth man, you sure about that?

I think Dorn is a psychotic clown, but you're painting him as a sociopathic monster.

After the fall of the Emperor, Dorn was stricken with grief. He felt the Emperor's near demise to be his fault and led his Legion on a crusade of penitence across the Imperium. He was summoned back to Terra when Roboute Guilliman announced the adoption of his Codex Astartes, turning Legions into Chapters. Dorn was initially outraged at this proposal, feeling that the Imperium blamed him (and rightly so, he thought) for the fall of his brother marines. But realizing what damage another internal conflict could do to the fragile peace of the Imperium, Dorn agreed. This was a dark period in Rogal Dorn's life; he had both failed the Emperor and his legion faltered without the guiding light of the Emperor[

Some controversy exists about the next event in Rogal Dorn's life. What is clear is that the Imperial Fists could not be as easily divided into chapters as, for example the Ultramarines could. The total commitment to the legion was bred into each marine and many didn't wish to form their own chapters. Dorn found the answer to this problem in meditation through self-inflicted pain, using a device known as the Pain Glove. The pain-induced vision revealed that his legion had to be redeemed in the eyes of the Emperor, and that the way to salvation was through pain and self-sacrifice

The 'collective pain' needed to cleanse the Chapter was decided by Dorn to be an Iron Warriors' fortress, the Iron Cage. Perturabo had built the massive fortifications to mock the Imperial Fists, and Dorn led his most die-hard followers in a siege that would last for several weeks. Followers of the Iron Warriors claim that the Imperial Fists suffered a crushing defeat, and that Dorn and his legion would have been wiped out if Perturabo hadn't prolonged Dorn's suffering so long that the Ultramarines managed to intervene

Imperial records indicate otherwise. The Imperial Fists had always been masters of siege craft, and even unprepared and at a disadvantage they fought like lions. Dorn stood as a giant in their midst, his mind clear with purpose after years of doubt and guilt. The Iron Warriors would have had to sacrifice their lives and Primarch to destroy the Imperial Fists, a price they weren't ready to pay. The arrival of the Ultramarines cut the conflict short and the Iron Warriors fled for the Eye of Terror. The Imperial Fists had suffered staggering losses, but they had proved their loyalty to the Emperor and cleansed themselves of earlier failures

What remained of the Legion was divided into three Chapters. The most zealous marines formed the Black Templars; the more rational and newly recruited marines the Crimson Fists and the ones most devoted to their Primarch and Legion remained the Imperial Fists. Rogal Dorn spent the next twenty years rebuilding and reforming his chapter according to the standards of the Index Astartes. (There were other chapters, like the Soul Drinkers for instance, though it is unclear when they came into existence.)


there it is.

"Imperial records" lol.

Anyway, holy feth I had no idea Dorn was such a psychopath.

he was a genius, alas most geniuses are semi insane.

and personally I am willing to believe the imperial records over some lame egotistical chaos marine boasting

Your claim does not realy change the fact that the IW won, only that Dorn knew what was going to happen and still went into the Iron cage. Furthermore there is no reason for the IWs to lie about the outcome of the battle while the imperium has both the motive and the power, heardof the inquisition, to retcon the history to suit their needs, ie Dorn isn't a psychopath that charges mindlessly into a heavily defended fortress, he is a hero that cleansed his legion's name through voluntary martyrdom.

And it can't realy have gone that bad for Perturabo since the Chaos gods gifted him an acension to Daemon prince status for the victory at the iron cage.

 Dantioch wrote:
Your claim does not realy change the fact that the IW won, only that Dorn knew what was going to happen and still went into the Iron cage. Furthermore there is no reason for the IWs to lie about the outcome of the battle while the imperium has both the motive and the power, heardof the inquisition, to retcon the history to suit their needs, ie Dorn isn't a psychopath that charges mindlessly into a heavily defended fortress, he is a hero that cleansed his legion's name through voluntary martyrdom.

And it can't realy have gone that bad for Perturabo since the Chaos gods gifted him an acension to Daemon prince status for the victory at the iron cage.

But was it really a victory for IW? I think about it for a moment: Perturabo failed to eradicate Dorn and his remaining men, and was granted daemonhood by the dark gods for his troubles, which is actually a bad thing (explained below.)
I think Perturabo made a huge mistake when he decided to prolong Dorn suffering instead of trying to finish them all off, as the survivors of the Iron cage incident would go on to form the BTs, who have proven very useful in purging the galaxy of Xenos and heretics. The fact that Dorn still drew breath after the iron cage incident, was a also terrible mistake on Perps part, a mistake that would come back to bite chaos in the arse later on, as the man in yellow was instrumental in stopping a black crusade.

Then we have Perturabo himself, who was granted the best possible reward a servant of chaos could hope for. That’s very good, but only for Perturabo that is, as his ascension to deamonhood meant that he would no longer take an active part in the Great War against the imperium, for the dark gods and their demonic servants cares little for their underling’s struggles against the IoM. This left the IW without their greatest leader, which more or less put them in the same position as their nemesis, the IF lol.

 Dantioch wrote:
there is no reason for the IWs to lie about the outcome of the battle

It is normal for chaos to lie and mislead . Even if what they said was true, do you for one moment believe, that the haughty Iron warriors wouldn’t add a little to the story? Remember, IW is by far one of the most arrogant of all the traitor legions.

I didn't claim that the daemonhood itself was a victory, I merely used it as an example that the chaos gods saw the battle as a victory. The Black templars weren't formed through the Iron cage incident, the marines that were to become BTs were zealous and fanatical already at the battle for terra, they were merely given a chapter of their own after the incident. If Dorn hadn't fought the needless battle there would still have been BTs, the only differance would have been that they would have fought as a IF company instead.

And isn't the fact that Perturabo could have chosen to kill Dorn but decided to torment him instead a sign of his superior generalship and mastery over Dorn as a siege specialist? I don't dispute that it would have been smarter by Perturabo to kill Dorn merely that he he , at least in this instance proved to be a superior general.

 Dantioch wrote:
The Black templars weren't formed through the Iron cage incident, the marines that were to become BTs were zealous and fanatical already at the battle for terra, they were merely given a chapter of their own after the incident. If Dorn hadn't fought the needless battle there would still have been BTs, the only differance would have been that they would have fought as a IF company instead.

Had there been no Iron cage accident, then there wouldn’t have been a BT chapter, or CF chapter for that matter. Dorn’s men weren’t willing to follow the UM example and have their legion split up into chapters. It is also important to note how much the IoM was in danger of having another civil war between IF and IG/UM. The only way for Dorn to solve this crisis was to throw his legion into the fire, dramatic I know, but that’s how it is worded in the SM codex. And so he did, right into Perturabo’s fortress. So ironically enough Perturabo unknowingly helped the Imperium avert a second Horus heresy lol.

 Dantioch wrote:
And isn't the fact that Perturabo could have chosen to kill Dorn

Could he actually kill Dorn though? IW had them by the balls that’s for sure, but was Dorn and his army ever in risk of being destroyed in that war? I don’t believe so.

 Dantioch wrote:
And isn't the fact that Perturabo could have chosen to kill Dorn but decided to torment him instead a sign of his superior generalship and mastery over Dorn as a siege specialist? I don't dispute that it would have been smarter by Perturabo to kill Dorn merely that he he , at least in this instance proved to be a superior general.

I don’t really see any display of great generalship in that battle, neither from Dorn nor Perturabo. Dorn led his hated for Perturabo overtake him and as result he ran directly into his said brother’s trap, whereas Perturabo had some craving need to see his brother suffer, which ended up benefiting the IoM more than it did chaos. Both of them wiffed it.

But unlike Dorn who never had a chance to win the battle Perturabo had it but let his emotions, just like Dorn, overtake him. So despite both acting like spoilt children unable to control their emotions Perturabo could still trap Dorn and, were it not for the glory boys of Guilliman, eventually kill him.

The overall effect of the battle on history certainly favoured the IoM more than it did chaos but it is hard to argeu that the IFs could ever have emerged victorious, ie killed every IW and torn down the fortress, from the Iron Cage.

I still believe the IW could have "won" at the cost of their own lives

And again why couldn't Dorn have just come out of the pain glove and said I'm the primarch, we are going to split the legion into chapters, I mean if the IF were loyal enough to hang around the iron cage when Dorn said so, surely they would have been loyal enough to split if Dorn says so, without having to get a bunch of them killed "to ensure their purity/loyalty/whatever".

because they had failed and had to be redeemed through fire (or in this case pain) in the eyes of the emparah

 Dantioch wrote:
But unlike Dorn who never had a chance to win the battle Perturabo had it but let his emotions, just like Dorn, overtake him. So despite both acting like spoilt children unable to control their emotions Perturabo could still trap Dorn and, were it not for the glory boys of Guilliman, eventually kill him.

I haven’t read anything about the Iron cage incident that makes me think Dorn was ever in mortal danger, or in risk of being trapped for that matter. His legion took a pounding because they deliberately charged into a meat grinder.

And I wouldn’t say Guilliman "saved Dorn" from doom. It is more like his entry alone ended the fight by making the other two lesser Primarchs aware of how trivial their struggle seemed, now that Guilliman, a real Ares, had arrived on the stage. .

 Dantioch wrote:
The overall effect of the battle on history certainly favoured the IoM more than it did chaos but it is hard to argeu that the IFs could ever have emerged victorious, ie killed every IW and torn down the fortress, from the Iron Cage.

Agreed. IF were not meant to win that day.

Here are some quotes from the original index Astartes text concerning the iron Cage incident:

"Still Perturabo remained patient, he allowed Dorn to rampage around the trenches calling his name and demanding personal combat, content that the sight of the Primarch's impotence would demoralise the Imperial Fists."

"Unable to abandon their Primarch the Imperial Fists prepared to die with him"

"If Perturabo had a failing, it was that he had grown to enjoy tormenting his enemies to much. He could have finished off the Imperial Fists at any time but chose not to. "

"Fortunately for Dorn, Guilliman put the Imperium before pride and had brought the Ultramarines to the rescue."

And finally:

"Rogal Dorn was a broken man, it was nineteen years before he and the Imperial fists could once again go to war."

Some of these, especially the last one might have been retconed but this was the original outcome of the iron cage incident.

Considering that after the HH the IF legion scoured more traitor marines from the galaxy than any other....

But they did that before the iron cage, right? Or have I got the timeline confused?

So they had already purged themselves of failure, by kicking the most backside in the events after the siege of terra. I just cant see how Dorn can be painted in a good light for any of his actions revolving around the iron cage.

that's the thing, he was shown with faults therefore more human, he felt it was HIS fault the empy died (one of the things he was charged with at the end of the great crusade) and that he was still unworthy/unredeemed. Its the breakdown of "omg, its all my fault" taking all the blame (without any REAL reason) and placing it on himself. He felt he needed to be punished for 1. allowing the emp to -almost- die. allowing the traitors to -almost- take the fortress at terra, and -almost- causing a second civil war due to his legion not splitting up.

 Zakiriel wrote:
Imperial Fists, because

This. All of this.

The Death Korps of Krieg would demolish both of them.

Even if the IW and IF got together to defend against the DKoK, they would lose in siege warfare.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The Death Korps of Krieg would demolish both of them.

Even if the IW and IF got together to defend against the DKoK, they would lose in siege warfare.

A. The Death Korps of Krieg are not in this thread, you are not being funny, or even original. You one of many unfunny individuals going on an off-topic tangent about the Death Korps of Krieg.

B. Both the Imperial Fists in their prime and the Iron Warriors in general would crush the Death Korps of Krieg like insects, unless it was a very small amount of Marines against the entire regiment.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 raiden wrote:
that's the thing, he was shown with faults therefore more human, he felt it was HIS fault the empy died (one of the things he was charged with at the end of the great crusade) and that he was still unworthy/unredeemed. Its the breakdown of "omg, its all my fault" taking all the blame (without any REAL reason) and placing it on himself. He felt he needed to be punished for 1. allowing the emp to -almost- die. allowing the traitors to -almost- take the fortress at terra, and -almost- causing a second civil war due to his legion not splitting up.

I am pretty sure he's just a psychopath, tbh.

The more I read about Rogal Dorn, the more I am convinced the man is completely off his rocker.

I'd have to go with the Imperial Fists personally.

 Void__Dragon wrote:
B. Both the Imperial Fists in their prime and the Iron Warriors in general would crush the Death Korps of Krieg like insects

Because, of course, ceramite power armour is imprevious to lascannons, melta weapons, plasma weapons, artillery barrages, massed lasgun fire and Space Marines can not ever be outthought or outfought or ever be ambushed or outmanoeuvered and never, of course, ever make mistakes. If you put the whole of both Legions up against the whole of the Death Korps, the Astartes are going to get one hell of a headache and that's just from the artillery, nevermind the massive amounts of armoured vehicles and the special & heavy weapons that the Death Korps use. Remember also that the Death Korps can replace regiments quickly and easily whereas how long would it take a depleted Legion to get back up to strength? You can't win a war of attrition against the Death Korps.

I gotta say that as a besieger I don't think anyone is better than the IG. As the besieged they are still pretty good but moral is always a problem.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
The Death Korps of Krieg would demolish both of them.

Even if the IW and IF got together to defend against the DKoK, they would lose in siege warfare.

A. The Death Korps of Krieg are not in this thread, you are not being funny, or even original. You one of many unfunny individuals going on an off-topic tangent about the Death Korps of Krieg.

B. Both the Imperial Fists in their prime and the Iron Warriors in general would crush the Death Korps of Krieg like insects, unless it was a very small amount of Marines against the entire regiment.

A. They are in this thread; they may not be included in the poll (or the opening post, but that may be for similar reasons), but the Thread Title includes them, imo. Myself and the others here are just trying to help the OP by saying that the Kings of the Siege are the DKoK, about which he may not know. It's entirely possible that he wanted to know who the kings of the siege are, and simply did not consider the DKoK and left them absent from the poll as an oversight. I am not trying to be funny, and I contest the contention that it is off topic, though arguing about it certainly is.

B. An earlier post addressed this, but with both sides in their prime, the DKoK would probably destroy both Legions. And it's not "the entire regiment;" the entire Korps is comprised of 50 "notable" regiments (citation: lexicanum), with the highest number being 933rd Infantry, provided that they name them sequentially. This number includes Infantry Regiments, Siege Regiments, Armored Regiments, and Superheavy Tank Companies.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
Because, of course, ceramite power armour is imprevious to lascannons, melta weapons, plasma weapons, artillery barrages, massed lasgun fire and Space Marines can not ever be outthought or outfought or ever be ambushed or outmanoeuvered and never, of course, ever make mistakes. If you put the whole of both Legions up against the whole of the Death Korps, the Astartes are going to get one hell of a headache and that's just from the artillery, nevermind the massive amounts of armoured vehicles and the special & heavy weapons that the Death Korps use. Remember also that the Death Korps can replace regiments quickly and easily whereas how long would it take a depleted Legion to get back up to strength? You can't win a war of attrition against the Death Korps.

They wouldn't fight a war of attrition.

The Legions benefited from their own sustainable fleet, indentured soldiers under their command, vastly superior equipment, obviously considerably superior training and personal prowess, and overall superior generals running the show, including two Primarchs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

A. They are in this thread; they may not be included in the poll (or the opening post, but that may be for similar reasons), but the Thread Title includes them, imo. Myself and the others here are just trying to help the OP by saying that the Kings of the Siege are the DKoK, about which he may not know. It's entirely possible that he wanted to know who the kings of the siege are, and simply did not consider the DKoK and left them absent from the poll as an oversight. I am not trying to be funny, and I contest the contention that it is off topic, though arguing about it certainly is.

It is also entirely possible that he wanted this to be a battle between the Imperial Fists and the Iron Warriors, as he said.

You're off-topic.

B. An earlier post addressed this, but with both sides in their prime, the DKoK would probably destroy both Legions. And it's not "the entire regiment;" the entire Korps is comprised of 50 "notable" regiments (citation: lexicanum), with the highest number being 933rd Infantry, provided that they name them sequentially. This number includes Infantry Regiments, Siege Regiments, Armored Regiments, and Superheavy Tank Companies.

And all of that means nothing in the face of orbital support.

 Dantioch wrote:
But unlike Dorn who never had a chance to win the battle Perturabo had it but let his emotions, just like Dorn, overtake him. So despite both acting like spoilt children unable to control their emotions Perturabo could still trap Dorn and, were it not for the glory boys of Guilliman, eventually kill him.

By that same notion, if Dorn hadn't let his emotions cloud his judgement, he never would have walked into Perturabo's trap in the first place.

Is it really "tacticool genius" on Perturabo's part when Dorn basically willingly marched into a situation that he knew he couldn't win?

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:
But unlike Dorn who never had a chance to win the battle Perturabo had it but let his emotions, just like Dorn, overtake him. So despite both acting like spoilt children unable to control their emotions Perturabo could still trap Dorn and, were it not for the glory boys of Guilliman, eventually kill him.

By that same notion, if Dorn hadn't let his emotions cloud his judgement, he never would have walked into Perturabo's trap in the first place.

Is it really "tacticool genius" on Perturabo's part when Dorn basically willingly marched into a situation that he knew he couldn't win?

He didn't walk into knowing that he could not win, he publicly boasted and swore before Guilliman that he would utterly crush Perturabo and tear down the eternal fortress, something he failed by quite a lot. He was just bad at reading the situation and seeing the trap right before his eyes, therefore making him a worse general.

 Dantioch wrote:

 BlaxicanX wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:
But unlike Dorn who never had a chance to win the battle Perturabo had it but let his emotions, just like Dorn, overtake him. So despite both acting like spoilt children unable to control their emotions Perturabo could still trap Dorn and, were it not for the glory boys of Guilliman, eventually kill him.

By that same notion, if Dorn hadn't let his emotions cloud his judgement, he never would have walked into Perturabo's trap in the first place.

Is it really "tacticool genius" on Perturabo's part when Dorn basically willingly marched into a situation that he knew he couldn't win?

He didn't walk into knowing that he could not win, he publicly boasted and swore before Guilliman that he would utterly crush Perturabo and tear down the eternal fortress, something he failed by quite a lot. He was just bad at reading the situation and seeing the trap right before his eyes, therefore making him a worse general.

cites? I have never heard that, though I have heard about him taking them in to "cleanse through pain".

 raiden wrote:
cites? I have never heard that, though I have heard about him taking them in to "cleanse through pain".

As per index Astartes 1, Dorn publicly stated that he would dig Perturabo up and bring him back in an iron cage. Hence the name of the battle.

Voted for Fists. I think their discipline and cold resolve would see them through.
Not saying the IWs arent disciplined too, just that the Fists are imho the best at what they do - siege.

edit

Iron Warriors still operate as a Legion, and have the fancy Daemon Engines to support them. I think they'd win.

Totally not biased for Chaos.

 SarisKhan wrote:
Iron Warriors still operate as a Legion, and have the fancy Daemon Engines to support them. I think they'd win.

Totally not biased for Chaos.

except... they don't trust their "brothers" anymore, they are always trying to 1 up the other or looking over their back trying NOT to get 1 uped.

 raiden wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
Iron Warriors still operate as a Legion, and have the fancy Daemon Engines to support them. I think they'd win.

Totally not biased for Chaos.

except... they don't trust their "brothers" anymore, they are always trying to 1 up the other or looking over their back trying NOT to get 1 uped.

This point keeps coming up and I have to say that if this was the blood feud, match of the century, where objectives were clear and obvious and both sides are doing what they do best (IF defending, IW's assaulting), then this mentality shouldn't come in so much. I would expect both sides to be bitter-hardened against each other in a fight like this. Essentially, that paranoia argument is like saying the IW break out into a power struggle on the siege lines in the middle of a bombardment.

Since the DKoK keep coming up, what is it exactly that makes them superior to Space Marines?

I get that imperial armor is supposed to be tough and we're talking about the ultimate turtle force, but it's still IG v. SM and IG never win that fight. Even with diminished numbers in the Chapters, physiologically speaking alone, the SM win. There are numerous examples in Treacheries of the Space Marines where IG fortresses, Ecclesiarchy Citadels and other similar structures in equally hostile terrains are cracked open by a siege force and the insides killed by cold climates as quickly as bolter round.

So unless Superman is backing them, I fail to see what the DKoK could have in the face of Daemon Engines, Primarchs, Super Soldiers, Superior Equipment, Titan Legions, Genetic Pre-disposition and 10,000 years+ of experience for some?

Bane Blades? Probably flexing my ignorance here, but I'm genuinely curious as to what bests Perturabo's angriest or Dorn's stubbornest in the realm of man?