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In a relatively fair and even siege would the iron warriors or imperial fists win if the iron warriors layed siege to an IF citadel? Discuss.

The Besieged typically lose to the Siege-r, for this reason alone: Whoever is held up in their fortress have to deal with dwindling supplies unless a supply route is secured, which is typically impossible in a siege scenario. There is also the problem with getting supplies that haven't been sabotaged as well. All the while, trying to keep your own walls from imploding.

Another good reason to say the Iron Warriors will ultimately win the siege? Daemons and Daemon engines. The Machine Spirit is no match to the foul works of the Warpsmiths. +__+

Not sure if I gave anyone an advantage (I haven't meant to) but I simply made the iron warriors the siegers and the imperial fists the besieged because generally from the fluff I have read IW are undisputed masters of the offensive siege whereas IF are the undisputed masters of the defensive siege

IF would have secured those supply routes, if they even need them. Remember the IF don't even need their whole legion/chapter to hold a fortress, they use few defenders and keep the rest as a mobile strike force. As a matter of fact, fluff wise everything points towards IF being the much better siege masters. (even horus himself)

IF were busting up the Iron warriors BEST fortress trap, without ANY planning at all... imagine if they had actually planned a strategic attack

I voted IF...but The real winner isn't up there, the ture victor would be Dkok.

Imperial Fists, because

 raiden wrote:
IF would have secured those supply routes, if they even need them. Remember the IF don't even need their whole legion/chapter to hold a fortress, they use few defenders and keep the rest as a mobile strike force. As a matter of fact, fluff wise everything points towards IF being the much better siege masters. (even horus himself)

IF were busting up the Iron warriors BEST fortress trap, without ANY planning at all... imagine if they had actually planned a strategic attack

If you'r refering to te Iron cage incident I don't think it was a walk in the park for the Imperial fists, couple of hundreds of marines dying for no real victory and having to be saved by the Ultramarines is hardly an easy victory.

As for the question itself Ihave to go with the fourth legion simply due to the nature of siege warfare, besiegers can always cut the supply line at which point it's only a matter of time before there is no more food and ammunition. Secondly, no matter how well you build your walls, sooner or later a part of it is going to collapse from enough shelling. And thirdly the Iron warriors legion is still a legion not a chapter, ie they can field a much larger number of marines as well as slaves and traitor guard while the imperial fists are stuck at slightly less than a thuosand marines.

And yes I know that the fists could field imperial guard soldiers and PDF forces as well, but I would argue that it's not the same as the IW slaves and traitor guard as the IG and PDF follow a separate command chain and can never be a permanent part of the fist army whereas the slaves are fully dependant and subservient to the fourth legion.

Well, there was the Iron Cage incident. The Iron Warriors go to extreme lengths for their trolling efforts.

Well remember the Siege of Terra? Yeah? IF>IW

Dorn genuinely believed his Legion were better. Remember he could not lie, and when asked if the VII could hold off the IV, he said yes.

 Deadshot wrote:
Well remember the Siege of Terra? Yeah? IF>IW

I don't think you can call the siege of terra a win for the fists, the walls were breached and the palace pretty much taken, ie the IW won the siege, but due to the death of Horus and the loyalist reinforcements the traitors could not capitalise on their victory and were forced to retreat.

Read the HH novel Angel Exterminatus.

 Dantioch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Well remember the Siege of Terra? Yeah? IF>IW

I don't think you can call the siege of terra a win for the fists, the walls were breached and the palace pretty much taken, ie the IW won the siege, but due to the death of Horus and the loyalist reinforcements the traitors could not capitalise on their victory and were forced to retreat.

Ii don't consider it a victory for the Besiegers untill they obtain complete control of the objective. The objective of the defenders is to defeat the attackers or survive long enough for reinforcements to save you, which is what the Imperials did.

 Deadshot wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
Well remember the Siege of Terra? Yeah? IF>IW

I don't think you can call the siege of terra a win for the fists, the walls were breached and the palace pretty much taken, ie the IW won the siege, but due to the death of Horus and the loyalist reinforcements the traitors could not capitalise on their victory and were forced to retreat.

Ii don't consider it a victory for the Besiegers untill they obtain complete control of the objective. The objective of the defenders is to defeat the attackers or survive long enough for reinforcements to save you, which is what the Imperials did.

The battle for Terra was more or less a statement between the Fist and the tin cans, with the overall victory of course going to the imperial side.

I voted Iron Warriors but fluff-wise it would probably be IF's because GW likes to big up the loyalist chapters.

Imperial Fists. All the fluff I've gotten my hands on so far supports this theory. Could be plenty I missed though, so obviously this is a PoV situation.

The problem with this question is the words "fair and even" - the IW don't play by the rules.
So because of this, as much as I love the IF... the IW win it, I think.

 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
The problem with this question is the words "fair and even" - the IW don't play by the rules.
So because of this, as much as I love the IF... the IW win it, I think.

Yeah, this needs to be taken from a realistic perspective.

The IW don't play fair.
The IF have been castrated of a great deal of their former power.
The IW have Daemon Engines and perfected the craft of the Daemonforge (something they probably didn't have at the Siege of Terra)
The Siege is a battle over time, where the besieged are at a tremendous disadvantage unless you are Russia and fighting Nazi Germany, which the Space Marines are neither.

Any war of attrition like a siege spells doom for the defending side, whether it's from a slow, seeping wound or a decapitating blow.

Now, here is a much better question: Would the IF survive a "death to all" siege from the IW? I.E. could they escape and survive their legacy to fight another day, perhaps without the restrictions placed on their chapter? Maybe on a home world somewhere? And would a siege between these two titans of their trade not be equally as amazing and epic, and so too the following lore of the Imperial Fists survival? ABSOLUTELY WHICH SHOULD MAKE YOU WANT TO SEE THEM DEFEATED BY THE HORDES OF THE IRON WARRIORS.

Hell, it worked for Abbadon. Let's see Dorn fall and his 1st become "Siege Master" or w/e they have over d'ere. Maybe he figures out how to fully commune with the Machine Spirit and equalizes the following battles with greater dues ex machina. :O

Also, in the scenario I have forseen in the universe, in regards to the eventual Fall of the Imperium of Man, suggests that remnants survive to fight on and inevitably return balance to Real Space and the Warp. So groups like (I dunno SM lore too well, so bare with me) the Space Wolves would probably dropped to a man, the "Angels" would all probably be wiped out in their suicidal feuds with Chaos, leaving groups like the bloated Ultramarines or Minotaurs. I dunno. Hopefully you all see where I'm getting at.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
The Besieged typically lose to the Siege-r, for this reason alone: Whoever is held up in their fortress have to deal with dwindling supplies unless a supply route is secured, which is typically impossible in a siege scenario. There is also the problem with getting supplies that haven't been sabotaged as well. All the while, trying to keep your own walls from imploding.

Another good reason to say the Iron Warriors will ultimately win the siege? Daemons and Daemon engines. The Machine Spirit is no match to the foul works of the Warpsmiths. +__+

can i ask you why you think the besieged normally lose?
normally its the besieger who loses for one reason or the other thats why id have to give my vote to the imperial fists

atlervetok wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
The Besieged typically lose to the Siege-r, for this reason alone: Whoever is held up in their fortress have to deal with dwindling supplies unless a supply route is secured, which is typically impossible in a siege scenario. There is also the problem with getting supplies that haven't been sabotaged as well. All the while, trying to keep your own walls from imploding.

Another good reason to say the Iron Warriors will ultimately win the siege? Daemons and Daemon engines. The Machine Spirit is no match to the foul works of the Warpsmiths. +__+

can i ask you why you think the besieged normally lose?
normally its the besieger who loses for one reason or the other thats why id have to give my vote to the imperial fists

Because we are not still building castles? "Laying siege" in the days of modern warfare takes on a whole new meaning, starting with the advent of the Cannonball. Essentially, the lesson learned was that it was better to be flexible and mobile than stagnant and grounded, though a fortified position was certainly an asset for individual combat. Sustained bombardment, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.

The IF win. Even if the IW have greater numbers, they're mustache-twirling in-fighting is problematic. And if you're going to assume the entire IW get together on this then I'd say you need to count the BT, too.

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Dark Apostle 666 wrote:
The problem with this question is the words "fair and even" - the IW don't play by the rules.
So because of this, as much as I love the IF... the IW win it, I think.

Yeah, this needs to be taken from a realistic perspective.

The IW don't play fair.
The IF have been castrated of a great deal of their former power.
The IW have Daemon Engines and perfected the craft of the Daemonforge (something they probably didn't have at the Siege of Terra)
The Siege is a battle over time, where the besieged are at a tremendous disadvantage unless you are Russia and fighting Nazi Germany, which the Space Marines are neither.

Any war of attrition like a siege spells doom for the defending side, whether it's from a slow, seeping wound or a decapitating blow.

I think the 'don't play fair' issue is irrelevant. All of the Imperial and non Imperial forces 'don't play fair', war isn't about 'playing fair', it's about completing your objectives with the least loss possible. I'm sure every opponent the IFs have ever faced all played fair and that somehow the wedgie masters will pull one over on them right?

Oh, and wars of attrition work against the attackers too. Many sieges have been lost due to the onset of disease, lack of food, etc. During the First Crusade, in several places, the crusaders were almost defeated because they'd eaten up everything within miles, and had to go to far in foraging parties (allowing the defenders to attack the foragers with ease). The Normans successfully invaded the Byzantine Empire, but lost out and had to flee in the end because they over extended.

Sieges do not spell doom for the defenders, all to often the attackers are just as close to capitulating as the defenders even when the attackers do win. If a 'defensive' strategy had no merits, no castle would have ever been built and the Roman army wouldn't have spent over 1000 years building a fortified encampment every time they moved.

^ well said

Perhaps what these chaps are referring to is something like the Cage, where Perturabo tricked Dorn as to what Dorn thought his objectives should be.

My vote is on IF. But then again a lot of factors have to be considered for a definite winner. Im just basing my opinion on the fluff in the supplement. Also the most strategic defenses can be manned by a lesser number compared to the attackers, which leaves the defenders a supply of men that can strike separately from their defenses.

Then again there are other issues like supplies and reinforcements that affect the outcome.

A true siege in the 41st millenium between marines is quite dependant on space superiority, if the fist would still have space superiority they could get supplies down to their fortress while depriving the IWs of their's. Since we assume that the IW are besieging the fists it is safe to assume that space superiority belongs to them. Therefore logistics for the warriors should be an easy problem to solve especially since there, unlike during the siege of Acre, exists fliers making distances irrelevant.

With space marines involved on both sides the psychological problems, such as boredom or despair, is also pretty much inconsequential meaning that both forces fighting till the last drop of blood and the siege having to be resolved by might.

Furthermore the Iron warriors will be fortifying their siege lines to a level where it would be as hard to assault their lines as it would be to assault the IF's fortress. The IW however have the possibilty of getting resuppied whereas the fist's lack this possibility and therefore time is on the traitors' side.

 Dantioch wrote:
A true siege in the 41st millenium between marines is quite dependant on space superiority, if the fist would still have space superiority they could get supplies down to their fortress while depriving the IWs of their's. Since we assume that the IW are besieging the fists it is safe to assume that space superiority belongs to them. Therefore logistics for the warriors should be an easy problem to solve especially since there, unlike during the siege of Acre, exists fliers making distances irrelevant.

With space marines involved on both sides the psychological problems, such as boredom or despair, is also pretty much inconsequential meaning that both forces fighting till the last drop of blood and the siege having to be resolved by might.

Furthermore the Iron warriors will be fortifying their siege lines to a level where it would be as hard to assault their lines as it would be to assault the IF's fortress. The IW however have the possibilty of getting resuppied whereas the fist's lack this possibility and therefore time is on the traitors' side.

Not even remotely the case where space travel pretty well precludes being able to fully armor up the space around you due to people popping in from no where thanks to the warp. Nothing would prevent the IF 'ground' contingent from being supported from space, even with the IW in 'control' over the planet. Fleets can pop in and have at you with little warning.

Even the most resolute of men still suffer from flagging will to win. Space Marines aren't immune to despair or none of them would have fallen to Chaos. Even when you hate your foes it doesn't make you immune. Knights Templar and Hospitaller made some stupid tactical decisions on occasion because of this, despite being intimately aware of their foes and possessed of a win or die trying mindset that never saw them surrender willingly. If you don't believe many/most of the crusaders were motivated by spiritual reasons you will have an impossible time explaining the People's Crusade or the Children's crusade. Yet even those folks had doubts and failings of faith. People bred from birth to believe, trust, and be blindly devoted to a certain belief style can still falter in the belief they are winning. Shoot, even the Germanic/Scandinavian cultures where death in battle meant you went to heaven and to die of old age was the worst death possible still faltered.

The Iron Warriors may look all super mentally tough on the outside, but they've already abandoned their beliefs once. The cracks are already there.

With an inability to close off access to a planet (and sans magical warp storms, the Iron Warriors cannot do this), they cannot completely cut off all supply and communication lines. Second, what would stop the IF from having underground food and manufacturing facilities to keep their equipment up in a way no current or historical fortress/army could? Any of which saps morale or a total willingness to prosecute the battle in the correct fashion.

I didn't vote, because I don't have an opinion on the winner, but the 'obviously as the besiegers they will win' doesn't work.

By the way when I said fair and even I only meant no saboteur traitors in the fortress and equal numbers. Any dirty tactic the IW and IF can think of is fair game!

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:
A true siege in the 41st millenium between marines is quite dependant on space superiority, if the fist would still have space superiority they could get supplies down to their fortress while depriving the IWs of their's. Since we assume that the IW are besieging the fists it is safe to assume that space superiority belongs to them. Therefore logistics for the warriors should be an easy problem to solve especially since there, unlike during the siege of Acre, exists fliers making distances irrelevant.

With space marines involved on both sides the psychological problems, such as boredom or despair, is also pretty much inconsequential meaning that both forces fighting till the last drop of blood and the siege having to be resolved by might.

Furthermore the Iron warriors will be fortifying their siege lines to a level where it would be as hard to assault their lines as it would be to assault the IF's fortress. The IW however have the possibilty of getting resuppied whereas the fist's lack this possibility and therefore time is on the traitors' side.

Not even remotely the case where space travel pretty well precludes being able to fully armor up the space around you due to people popping in from no where thanks to the warp. Nothing would prevent the IF 'ground' contingent from being supported from space, even with the IW in 'control' over the planet. Fleets can pop in and have at you with little warning.

Even the most resolute of men still suffer from flagging will to win. Space Marines aren't immune to despair or none of them would have fallen to Chaos. Even when you hate your foes it doesn't make you immune. Knights Templar and Hospitaller made some stupid tactical decisions on occasion because of this, despite being intimately aware of their foes and possessed of a win or die trying mindset that never saw them surrender willingly. If you don't believe many/most of the crusaders were motivated by spiritual reasons you will have an impossible time explaining the People's Crusade or the Children's crusade. Yet even those folks had doubts and failings of faith. People bred from birth to believe, trust, and be blindly devoted to a certain belief style can still falter in the belief they are winning. Shoot, even the Germanic/Scandinavian cultures where death in battle meant you went to heaven and to die of old age was the worst death possible still faltered.

The Iron Warriors may look all super mentally tough on the outside, but they've already abandoned their beliefs once. The cracks are already there.

With an inability to close off access to a planet (and sans magical warp storms, the Iron Warriors cannot do this), they cannot completely cut off all supply and communication lines. Second, what would stop the IF from having underground food and manufacturing facilities to keep their equipment up in a way no current or historical fortress/army could? Any of which saps morale or a total willingness to prosecute the battle in the correct fashion.

I didn't vote, because I don't have an opinion on the winner, but the 'obviously as the besiegers they will win' doesn't work.

I have a few serious quibbles here:

Not even remotely the case where space travel pretty well precludes being able to fully armor up the space around you due to people popping in from no where thanks to the warp. Nothing would prevent the IF 'ground' contingent from being supported from space, even with the IW in 'control' over the planet. Fleets can pop in and have at you with little warning.

Yes fleets can drop out of the warp, but they aren't doing it right above a planet, dropping supplies, and running. Fluff always depicts ships dropping out of the warp fairly far from planets and having to travel in real-space through a system, and the fluff also supports fleets needing to gain and maintain control of the space above planets. EVERY piece of fluff written that I've ever seen suggests the besieged would have resupply issues if the attackers had control of the space above the planet.

Even the most resolute of men still suffer from flagging will to win. Space Marines aren't immune to despair or none of them would have fallen to Chaos. Even when you hate your foes it doesn't make you immune. Knights Templar and Hospitaller ....

Gotta stop you right there. You're right that marines are not totally immune to psychological effects but don't even bother comparing them to crusade knights, or any other normal human you could cite, especially in this case. You're talking about two of the coldest, stubbornest, most unflinching legions, doing exactly what they were bred, hypno-indoctrinated, and trained to do, against their most hated foe. Psychology would probably play a very minor role in this hypothetical siege because I don't see either side cracking, at all.

With an inability to close off access to a planet (and sans magical warp storms, the Iron Warriors cannot do this)

As I pointed out, they don't need magical warp storms to effectively blockade a planet. It happens in the fluff, you just need a big, competent fleet. But while we're on the subject, the Iron Warriors could in theory rely on a warp storm to help cut off our hypothetical planet. They certainly did it during the heresy (see the Crimson Fist short story), and I wouldn't say it was impossible to pull off again, so that's yet another trick up their sleeve.


I think this is hard to answer without knowing all the ground rules - any fortress can be broken given enough time and resources, so what kind of limits would you apply? Especially considering what's left of the Iron Warriors is easily an order of magnitude larger than the Imperial Fists chapter - are Imperial Fists successor chapters allowed to help break the siege? In the end I voted Iron Warriors simply because I can foresee more possibly scenarios where they win than vice versa.

 CalgarsPimpHand wrote:

 Maniac_nmt wrote:

 Dantioch wrote:
A true siege in the 41st millenium between marines is quite dependant on space superiority, if the fist would still have space superiority they could get supplies down to their fortress while depriving the IWs of their's. Since we assume that the IW are besieging the fists it is safe to assume that space superiority belongs to them. Therefore logistics for the warriors should be an easy problem to solve especially since there, unlike during the siege of Acre, exists fliers making distances irrelevant.

With space marines involved on both sides the psychological problems, such as boredom or despair, is also pretty much inconsequential meaning that both forces fighting till the last drop of blood and the siege having to be resolved by might.

Furthermore the Iron warriors will be fortifying their siege lines to a level where it would be as hard to assault their lines as it would be to assault the IF's fortress. The IW however have the possibilty of getting resuppied whereas the fist's lack this possibility and therefore time is on the traitors' side.

Not even remotely the case where space travel pretty well precludes being able to fully armor up the space around you due to people popping in from no where thanks to the warp. Nothing would prevent the IF 'ground' contingent from being supported from space, even with the IW in 'control' over the planet. Fleets can pop in and have at you with little warning.

Even the most resolute of men still suffer from flagging will to win. Space Marines aren't immune to despair or none of them would have fallen to Chaos. Even when you hate your foes it doesn't make you immune. Knights Templar and Hospitaller made some stupid tactical decisions on occasion because of this, despite being intimately aware of their foes and possessed of a win or die trying mindset that never saw them surrender willingly. If you don't believe many/most of the crusaders were motivated by spiritual reasons you will have an impossible time explaining the People's Crusade or the Children's crusade. Yet even those folks had doubts and failings of faith. People bred from birth to believe, trust, and be blindly devoted to a certain belief style can still falter in the belief they are winning. Shoot, even the Germanic/Scandinavian cultures where death in battle meant you went to heaven and to die of old age was the worst death possible still faltered.

The Iron Warriors may look all super mentally tough on the outside, but they've already abandoned their beliefs once. The cracks are already there.

With an inability to close off access to a planet (and sans magical warp storms, the Iron Warriors cannot do this), they cannot completely cut off all supply and communication lines. Second, what would stop the IF from having underground food and manufacturing facilities to keep their equipment up in a way no current or historical fortress/army could? Any of which saps morale or a total willingness to prosecute the battle in the correct fashion.

I didn't vote, because I don't have an opinion on the winner, but the 'obviously as the besiegers they will win' doesn't work.

I have a few serious quibbles here:

Not even remotely the case where space travel pretty well precludes being able to fully armor up the space around you due to people popping in from no where thanks to the warp. Nothing would prevent the IF 'ground' contingent from being supported from space, even with the IW in 'control' over the planet. Fleets can pop in and have at you with little warning.

Yes fleets can drop out of the warp, but they aren't doing it right above a planet, dropping supplies, and running. Fluff always depicts ships dropping out of the warp fairly far from planets and having to travel in real-space through a system, and the fluff also supports fleets needing to gain and maintain control of the space above planets. EVERY piece of fluff written that I've ever seen suggests the besieged would have resupply issues if the attackers had control of the space above the planet.

Even the most resolute of men still suffer from flagging will to win. Space Marines aren't immune to despair or none of them would have fallen to Chaos. Even when you hate your foes it doesn't make you immune. Knights Templar and Hospitaller ....

Gotta stop you right there. You're right that marines are not totally immune to psychological effects but don't even bother comparing them to crusade knights, or any other normal human you could cite, especially in this case. You're talking about two of the coldest, stubbornest, most unflinching legions, doing exactly what they were bred, hypno-indoctrinated, and trained to do, against their most hated foe. Psychology would probably play a very minor role in this hypothetical siege because I don't see either side cracking, at all.

With an inability to close off access to a planet (and sans magical warp storms, the Iron Warriors cannot do this)

As I pointed out, they don't need magical warp storms to effectively blockade a planet. It happens in the fluff, you just need a big, competent fleet. But while we're on the subject, the Iron Warriors could in theory rely on a warp storm to help cut off our hypothetical planet. They certainly did it during the heresy (see the Crimson Fist short story), and I wouldn't say it was impossible to pull off again, so that's yet another trick up their sleeve.


I think this is hard to answer without knowing all the ground rules - any fortress can be broken given enough time and resources, so what kind of limits would you apply? Especially considering what's left of the Iron Warriors is easily an order of magnitude larger than the Imperial Fists chapter - are Imperial Fists successor chapters allowed to help break the siege? In the end I voted Iron Warriors simply because I can foresee more possibly scenarios where they win than vice versa.

Perfectly valid to use people raised since birth and indoctrinated on all levels to believe a particular way and then place in institutions that further cement that belief by isolating their members from normal society and imposing strict rules upon them designed to foster mental obedience. It isn't about cracking so much as the self belief they will win. In an evenly matched up fight, the self belief of victory is a serious factor in winning. Grumbling about stagnation will set in, even in marines at some point (in particular it could be said of Marines, who are designed to not be stuck fighting over the same piece of real estate for 10-50 years solid, their whole training is against that, after all, that is what guard/cultists are for). Space Marines don't have anything over the various military crusading orders in terms of mental will to fight. They have specialized training methods that allow for enhanced training and knowledge, but going based on 'fluff' 1 Templar was worth at least 10 of his enemy, and would always fight to the last man. It didn't save them at Hattin (being lulled into a trap, then denied water, so dehydrated, exhausted, and knowing they would likely die, perfectly something a Marine could face in this situation).

The fluff is also full of space being a contestable place (Armageddon for example) or foes dropping out of the warp close enough that you cannot completely blockade them. The Orks, as an example, are shown in the Farsight dex to drop out of warp close enough that Farsight cannot shoot them all down before they make planet fall. Unless the IW completely destroy the IF fleet (or vice versa depending on how you want this to play out), block all communications, and magic warp storm the whole area there would be no way to completely cordon off a planet for them.

Caesar built two forts for his final battle with Vercingetorix. One facing the city to ring it in, the other facing outwards to stop the external Gaul forces from hitting him in the back. He was both the besieger and the besieged. This is quite literally the most likely scenario for any besieging force that cannot obliterate the enemy fleet and keep it that way. Suppose a single battle barge makes it out of the main battle. It can contest supply lines for the attacking side almost indefinitely until someone goes to track it down, and if they do, how many ships do they have to withdraw from the blockade allowing for any blockade runners to break through?

Neither the Iron Warriors nor the Imperial Fists have enough man power in and of themselves, solely, to fully blockade a planet.

I would agree, based on simple man power, the Iron Warriors have it, but they have to be able to apply that man power while completely locking up the Imperial Fists en total to the planet or space battle and allowing none to escape.

Ork warp technology is very different to imperial or chaos, orks make use of giant asteroids that they throw randomly into the warp, space marines make use of a more stable version. However the space marine fleet is susceptible to the gravitic pull of the central star and acording to all the fluff I've read on warp travel the star's gravity will cause the transition to or from the warp all but impossible, this means that they have to make the jump many days from the centre of the system. Orks can avoid it due to their fanatical belief in their own supperior technology and the randomness of their warp jumps. The signature of a warp jump is very easy to detect making it almost impossible to surprise a fleet close to the star.

As for the moral issue, I know the medieval knightly orders were tough but they are in nowhere near as though as a space marine. I would say that the knights are close in level of morale to cadian shock troopers or maybe storm troopers who have been training their entire life to fight for the imperium but are still human and nowhere nere the level of might and resilliance as a marine. Many of the Iron warriors have been fighting the imperium and especially the imperial fists for 10 000 years and their only goal in life is to crush the human race for the glory of chaos. The imperial fists on the other hand have been hypnotised to believe in their own superiority, the righteousness of their cause and have been genetically modified to know no fear. I don't think either part will be willing to back down from a head on engagment between two of the greatest rivals in the 41st millenium.

I'm not implying they'll back down. I'm implying they won't always keep their eye on the ball as much as they should.

We're not just talking about physical toughness, so much as ability to stay focused and get the job done.

How long before the extremely bitter rivalry plays out in stupid ways (such as charging a position you might otherwise not charge)? Particularly when both parties are known for being stupid about such things.

The Imperial Fists, in particular, are known to be stupidly stoic. Gutting it out rather than a tactical withdrawl to come back with a better plan. It's like their defining characteristic, to make the glory play over the intelligent play.