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 Maniac_nmt wrote:
The Iron Warriors may look all super mentally tough on the outside, but they've already abandoned their beliefs once. The cracks are already there.

Another excellent point. No one can accuse the Imperial Fists of morale deficiency.

 Maniac_nmt wrote:
I'm not implying they'll back down. I'm implying they won't always keep their eye on the ball as much as they should.

We're not just talking about physical toughness, so much as ability to stay focused and get the job done.

How long before the extremely bitter rivalry plays out in stupid ways (such as charging a position you might otherwise not charge)? Particularly when both parties are known for being stupid about such things.

The Imperial Fists, in particular, are known to be stupidly stoic. Gutting it out rather than a tactical withdrawl to come back with a better plan. It's like their defining characteristic, to make the glory play over the intelligent play.

Well it's about the physical AND mental toughness that marines are reputed to have. I don't think in this situation either side would crack or falter due to simple hardship of any kind. But playing on psychology to force a mistake from your opponent is totally valid here. Heck, the Iron Warriors seem to have a hobby of trolling the Imperial Fists and forcing errors. But this is different than a comparison to crusading knights having doubts about their victory. Both of these armies in particular take pride in their siege-work, whether attacking or defending, and I would fully expect them to fight as hard as they could down to the last bolter round if ordered to do so.

I agree that the most likely scenario is a siege-within-a-siege with the Iron Warriors surrounding the fortress(es) and blockading the planet, with a relief force attempting to break the siege and trapping the Iron Warriors in-system. For the purposes of the question, I assume the entire Imperial Fists chapter has somehow been caught in their fortresses on some planet, heavily outnumbered by Iron Warriors, with a number of Imperial Fists successor chapters showing up to break the siege and balance things in terms of strength. Just say the Fists have access to as many auxiliaries as the Iron Warriors, and overall strength is roughly equal.

Likely outcome, in my opinion, is that if this somehow happened, the Iron Warriors would have the advantage at first through overwhelming application of force against the Fists, but the Fists would be able to hold out long enough for reinforcements to besiege the besiegers. The various Iron Warrior Great Companies would maintain unit out of sheer hatred for the Fists. The result would be a pyrrhic victory by a narrow margin, with the fortresses reduced and the Imperial Fists all but destroyed, but at enormous cost to the Iron Warriors, not many of whom would escape.

Which is why this would never happen in the first place - the IW may hate the IF, but they care more about surviving to troll another day

 kinratha wrote:
I voted IF...but The real winner isn't up there, the ture victor would be Dkok.

This. The DKoK laugh at the children playing with their toys and then demonstrate how a real siege is done.

See, I'm interested in this Siege within a Siege lark. See, if all the Dorn-child fleets showed up, that is, the Successors and the IF fleet itself, it would easily outnumber the IW. The IWs have what? 10k something marines and equivilent fleets? The Black Templars have 6 000 themselves. Then there is the IF fleet, the Iron Knights, the Crimson Fists (depending on Timeline they may or may not). Then there is the White Templars, Red Templars, Invaders, Celestial Lions, Crusaders of Dorn, Crimson Axes, Death Strike, Emperor's Warbringers, Excoriators, Executioners, Fire Lords, Hammers of Dorn, Iron Champions, Knights of Dorn, Sons of Dorn, Night Swords, Subjugators and Venom Thorns. As I understand the Soul Drinkers are now renegade and wouldn't be welcome as a relief force, but if push comes to shove they may prioritise their Primarchial loyalty and hatred of the IV Legion as bred into them as the sons of Rogal Dorn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the boot, I'm pretty sure the Imperial Navy would chuck their hat into the Ring, and if Daemons or Daemon Engines showed their mugs I'm sure the GK would come knocking. Not to mention the Inquisition to capture traitors for penance/torture/interrogation. And I'd put money on the Dark Angels and their successors looking for a Fallen in the mess. Then there'd be the Minotaurs "Checking in" to make sure no marines turn in that Chaotic turmoil. And I'm sure other Chapters in the area would come around. The Imperial Fists might ask a favour off the Ultramarines or Space Wolves. And the Imperial Guard will undoubtably arrive in some form or another. Then the PDF.

*Grabs popcorn* there's nothing better than watching loyalist fanboys and chaos fanboys fight!

 Deadshot wrote:
See, I'm interested in this Siege within a Siege lark. See, if all the Dorn-child fleets showed up, that is, the Successors and the IF fleet itself, it would easily outnumber the IW. The IWs have what? 10k something marines and equivilent fleets? The Black Templars have 6 000 themselves. Then there is the IF fleet, the Iron Knights, the Crimson Fists (depending on Timeline they may or may not). Then there is the White Templars, Red Templars, Invaders, Celestial Lions, Crusaders of Dorn, Crimson Axes, Death Strike, Emperor's Warbringers, Excoriators, Executioners, Fire Lords, Hammers of Dorn, Iron Champions, Knights of Dorn, Sons of Dorn, Night Swords, Subjugators and Venom Thorns. As I understand the Soul Drinkers are now renegade and wouldn't be welcome as a relief force, but if push comes to shove they may prioritise their Primarchial loyalty and hatred of the IV Legion as bred into them as the sons of Rogal Dorn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the boot, I'm pretty sure the Imperial Navy would chuck their hat into the Ring, and if Daemons or Daemon Engines showed their mugs I'm sure the GK would come knocking. Not to mention the Inquisition to capture traitors for penance/torture/interrogation. And I'd put money on the Dark Angels and their successors looking for a Fallen in the mess. Then there'd be the Minotaurs "Checking in" to make sure no marines turn in that Chaotic turmoil. And I'm sure other Chapters in the area would come around. The Imperial Fists might ask a favour off the Ultramarines or Space Wolves. And the Imperial Guard will undoubtably arrive in some form or another. Then the PDF.

And then the Tau could show up, and they'll call in a favor with the Eldar... lol. This was between rival chapters, Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors.

Since I have yet to see much concession from the Loyalists as to the limits of their species, can I ask this question to just set the bar for all other discussions? Do you think the Imperium will defeat Chaos? Do you think the Imperium will maintain control of the universe?

If you said yes to either of those, I think you are a little delusional, however it is every bit of possible that you know something I do not. That said, just taken from the fundamental nature of things, it seems entirely impossible that Chaos could either be defeated (macro) or eliminated entirely, especially considering the objectives of Chaos are often times completely irreconcilable with Real Space such as the Scouring of Omegath or perhaps the Changelings spoor within the Gray Knight, Brother Brutus. If Man does not lose Terra or the Emperor returns to magically set things right, I think I'd lose a little respect for the writing. Does this mean Man has to be completely wiped out? No. I've said this in other threads, I think that actually makes humanity more interesting by making these Chapters survive from their homeworlds and adapt differently. Instead of "living in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable," maybe humanity does some real politicking with correctly asserted, socially beneficial Space Marine leadership, instead of servitude. Make the kids toughen up a little bit and take their inevitable defeat as a sign of great things to come. I know k-os certainly is. >D Like our loyalist counterparts in this scenario, I feel "the bad guys" shine brightest when they have glutted their ego's with ideas of superiority, only to have it usurped by the good guys.

Which is why the Iron Warriors have to kill Dorn...if he's not already dead. ;>>

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
See, I'm interested in this Siege within a Siege lark. See, if all the Dorn-child fleets showed up, that is, the Successors and the IF fleet itself, it would easily outnumber the IW. The IWs have what? 10k something marines and equivilent fleets? The Black Templars have 6 000 themselves. Then there is the IF fleet, the Iron Knights, the Crimson Fists (depending on Timeline they may or may not). Then there is the White Templars, Red Templars, Invaders, Celestial Lions, Crusaders of Dorn, Crimson Axes, Death Strike, Emperor's Warbringers, Excoriators, Executioners, Fire Lords, Hammers of Dorn, Iron Champions, Knights of Dorn, Sons of Dorn, Night Swords, Subjugators and Venom Thorns. As I understand the Soul Drinkers are now renegade and wouldn't be welcome as a relief force, but if push comes to shove they may prioritise their Primarchial loyalty and hatred of the IV Legion as bred into them as the sons of Rogal Dorn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the boot, I'm pretty sure the Imperial Navy would chuck their hat into the Ring, and if Daemons or Daemon Engines showed their mugs I'm sure the GK would come knocking. Not to mention the Inquisition to capture traitors for penance/torture/interrogation. And I'd put money on the Dark Angels and their successors looking for a Fallen in the mess. Then there'd be the Minotaurs "Checking in" to make sure no marines turn in that Chaotic turmoil. And I'm sure other Chapters in the area would come around. The Imperial Fists might ask a favour off the Ultramarines or Space Wolves. And the Imperial Guard will undoubtably arrive in some form or another. Then the PDF.

And then the Tau could show up, and they'll call in a favor with the Eldar... lol. This was between rival chapters, Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors.

Since I have yet to see much concession from the Loyalists as to the limits of their species, can I ask this question to just set the bar for all other discussions? Do you think the Imperium will defeat Chaos? Do you think the Imperium will maintain control of the universe?

If you said yes to either of those, I think you are a little delusional, however it is every bit of possible that you know something I do not. That said, just taken from the fundamental nature of things, it seems entirely impossible that Chaos could either be defeated (macro) or eliminated entirely, especially considering the objectives of Chaos are often times completely irreconcilable with Real Space such as the Scouring of Omegath or perhaps the Changelings spoor within the Gray Knight, Brother Brutus. If Man does not lose Terra or the Emperor returns to magically set things right, I think I'd lose a little respect for the writing. Does this mean Man has to be completely wiped out? No. I've said this in other threads, I think that actually makes humanity more interesting by making these Chapters survive from their homeworlds and adapt differently. Instead of "living in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable," maybe humanity does some real politicking with correctly asserted, socially beneficial Space Marine leadership, instead of servitude. Make the kids toughen up a little bit and take their inevitable defeat as a sign of great things to come. I know k-os certainly is. >D Like our loyalist counterparts in this scenario, I feel "the bad guys" shine brightest when they have glutted their ego's with ideas of superiority, only to have it usurped by the good guys.

Which is why the Iron Warriors have to kill Dorn...if he's not already dead. ;>>

I'm only trying to even things up. The IWs are still a Legion and the IF are a tenth of that, a Chapter. In the interest of fair examination, the IF should get their successors to help them. The IW also get Cultists and a larger, unrestricted fleet. And Daemons/ Engines so the GK even that up and the Imperial Guard even up the Cultists. I'm only making it a fair test. If it were just the IF chapter vs the IW Legion, no contest.

I vote IF on this one.

In Storm of Iron a mere handful of Fists are able to assist the forces at Hydra Cordatus and delay the inevitable by a large margin. The Iron Warriors are masters of Siege Craft and the fortress would eventually fall. However, the self preservation, personal agenda and rivalry amongst the sons of Perturabo would be major factors in the IF eventually gaining victory, having caused the siege to be a protracted battle where they would not be sure who they could trust, constantly looking for that knife in the Dark.

Dead Sky, Black Sun and Angel Exterminatus have great examples of this rivalry taking form.

I also believe that the Iron Warriors do not have it in them to take the final plunge and finish off the Fists and past losses have greatly impaired their ability too see a battle through to the bitter end.

it really could go eaither way. Both IWs and IFs have gotten their licks in pretty solidly against the other in the past. and there's no CLEAR superior (which is why the entire rivalry exists in the first place. if one of the two was clearly the superior the rivalry wouldn't exist)
the arguement that the IWs are a legion and thus numerically superior doesn't old water. because we know the legions have splintered into war bands.


yes IWs have their deamon engines etc. but they also have the nasty realty of chaos. they're MUCH more vunerable to infighting. something that could cause problems for them in a long seige.
basicly, iron warriors vs imp fists is a pretty even match and it'd require localized things like which enemy commander is better etc to really weigh anything.

That said it's worth noting that seiges tend, by their nature, to be uneven battles.

I really hate to see all these posts pointing at the books and going "A handful of marines hindered whole armies" etc. The books tend to suffer from the same issue as say, the Ultramarines movie.

They are have plot armor, and the fact that despite this being a "grimdark" universe, the loyalist space marines being one of the most popular faction as well as the tendency for most books to be published from the more humanizing perspective of "the good guys", tends to skew the outcome of many of the novels.

Typical plot structure involves a conflict, resolution, hero and a villain. Granted the book doesn't always end with the hero running off into the sunset to go praise the Emphra and practice his shoulder pad buffing, but usually the evil somehow gets its just desserts, whether it be the case and point in most scenarios involving Chaos in WHFB where the sudden infighting erupts and dissolves the entire BBG's army at the pinnacle of his victory, or somebody like Grimgor comes in just for the sake of slapping around the Everchosen.

Other good examples are things like the Siege of Vraks etc. If you really need any examples of the loyalists/Guard beating up anything that doens't fit the remotely human, just pick up a Black Library book.(While I make the stretch to consider SM somewhat human, CSM is by far not. They are far less inclined to follow anything remotely human like morals, honor or even loyalty.)

But thrown between the two, the entire scenario would be entirely dependent on what form of siege is at stake here.

If this was a no holds barred, there is no backup coming, I think this would grind to a stalemate fast between the two, the IW have the edge on numbers likely, but in a siege you can only commit so many units to breaching, where as the defenders are able to be much more spread out. The winner in most scenarios would be whoever has the advantage of numbers, firepower and supplies as well as time. In a siege, you are not only fighting to break the fortress(Whether physically or mentally) you are besieging, but the time it would take to correlate a response and relieve the besieged by any allies who will respond. Any massive chaos incursion like this is bound to attract quite a bit of attention without some strong intervention by the Dark Gods.

(Edit Note: Just deserts....really brain?)

 Deadshot wrote:
Well remember the Siege of Terra?

Yep. The Iron Warriors sure did knock down Dorn's little walls.

The Emperor and Dorn capitalized on Horus' little idiotic gesture (Lowering his ship's shields) for a reason. If they didn't, they would have lost.

Lord of Lustria wrote:
By the way when I said fair and even I only meant no saboteur traitors in the fortress and equal numbers. Any dirty tactic the IW and IF can think of is fair game!

Don't know a whole lot about siege warfare, do you?

Giving them equal numbers is the equivalent of saying "Oh by the way no matter what arguments you guys come up with the besiegers lose".

Committing to a siege without at least ten times the number of the enemy is suicide, unless the enemy commander is extraordinarily incompetent, which the Imperial Fists are not.

 deadrifler wrote:
I really hate to see all these posts pointing at the books and going "A handful of marines hindered whole armies" etc. The books tend to suffer from the same issue as say, the Ultramarines movie.

They are have plot armor, and the fact that despite this being a "grimdark" universe, the loyalist space marines being one of the most popular faction as well as the tendency for most books to be published from the more humanizing perspective of "the good guys", tends to skew the outcome of many of the novels.

Typical plot structure involves a conflict, resolution, hero and a villain. Granted the book doesn't always end with the hero running off into the sunset to go praise the Emphra and practice his shoulder pad buffing, but usually the evil somehow gets its just desserts, whether it be the case and point in most scenarios involving Chaos in WHFB where the sudden infighting erupts and dissolves the entire BBG's army at the pinnacle of his victory, or somebody like Grimgor comes in just for the sake of slapping around the Everchosen.

But it is a good example of how capable the Space Marine are and they eventually do get their comeuppance at the hands of the Iron Warriors. There is no doubt that they would meet defeat but the expertise of the Fists in this situation proved invaluable to the defence of Hydra Cordatus, but it was not achieved by them alone, it was their presence and knowledge that assisted the forces there which they were defending with. True, in regards to the plot armour, but Storm of Iron is definitely an Iron Warriors book, showing their prowess and tactical capability as much as it does the Fists. It's probably one of the best examples of just how good both are at what they do.

I'm going to stand by the Iron Warriors new-found Daemonforges to the deciding factor here. In fact, I'll take it a step further and say that the Warp itself is what would ultimately define this battle. At first, I was prepared to leave the Daemons out of this argument, however, upon further review of my Chaos Codex, I have found a number of instances that suggest a siege between the IW and IF would be more than troops crashing the walls and cannonade crushing the tectonic plates of the planet to dust.

Quick Side Note: That is what they did to Terra. So, I'll argue that if the planet that an IF fortress is on (short ofthe Planet Fortress itself, but then we can talk about the Blackstone Fortresses then) cannot survive the siege, then neither can the fort.

I digress though: Instances in the 40k that show this rivalry started in the 30k as different.

c.400.M32: Perturabo's Plague: The Daemon Primarch Perturabo perverts the eight rituals of possession, turning them against his enemies. Invoking Nurgle, Perturabo imbues his curse with extreme contagion and releases it into the mechanical systems of Toil, a vassal forge world. The raw Chaos spreads through the machines, and the hidden manufactorums begin to change. On the eighth day, giant cables burst from the earth, daemonic machines hunt the living, and many legged cathedrals of industry prowl the wastes. The planet is ultimately scoured of all native flesh.

^So...about that fortress?

And here is something else to consider when we're talking about what forces are actually enacted here: It has been suggested that the Imperial Fists wouldn't just be the Imperial Fists. That because IW have Daemonengines, the Grey Knights will be put in. Or if IW Cultists are there, then IG will pile in. But that's not quiet accurate for there isn't a division between IW cultists, daemon hosts, Warsmith hosts, etc. etc. etc.

The IW consist of cultists, daemon engines and their troops and machines. That IS the Iron Warriors. They don't have sub-divisions the same way the IF were forced to do after the Heresy. Yes, this makes the fighting uneven, but the Imperium did that to themselves and for a very good reason: The last time they left the Primarchs in charge, half of them turned to Chaos, including the Warmaster.

Notice I left "Daemons" off, because to me that is the equivalent of the IF bringing all of their Baby Fists and IG contingents and blah-blah. But Daemon engines? Well, it's not even accurate to say Grey Knights would come in to help out. If we're going that route, the Mechanicum of Mars is what shows up in that case, but even the Mechanicum dictates that what the Iron Warriors have achieved is what they wish to accomplish through the Omnissiah/Machine Spirits.

Something else to consider when we're talking about the introduction of all these additional Chapters to help in the fighting is that you also expand the Sphere of Command as well. So, instead of just having Dorn at the head of the IF, you've got the Emperors Champion at the head of the Black Templar issuing orders, and so on and so forth. To that degree, too many chiefs could be problematic for maintaining battlefield cohesion.

Ugh...too tired. Hopefully this added some weight to the discussion and doesn't come off as more Fanboy-dom.

Iron Warriors defeated the Fists in every engagement they've had. Siege of Terra and the Cage. Nuff said.

Iron warriors would have lost the Cage, and the only reason they even breachd the castle was due out numbering them (legions alone) by double, not counting any army guys or tanks/ the like. and even then the champion from IF beat the crap out of every single enemy commander he fought. and to be fair, they NEVER TOOK the palace.

I think it would have to go to the IFs but that is also somewhat dependent on what era we are talking about. If we are talking legions than the Iron Warriors may have the advantage just because they would have much stronger coherency and leadership combined with a waac mind set. Post heresy though i think the Iron Warriors would not do as well because a warsmith can only inspire threaten so much before your warriors start to seriously consider promoting themselves to his position. Also the Iron Warriors may be crazy but they are not stupid and probably would not sacrifice every last man in an attempt to prove a point like the Imperial Fists would.

Honestly, in the siege warfare the iron warriors partake in (bombing the fortress into submission from miles away before the assault) I'm not so sure even numbers isn't fair, though you are right that mortal soldiers may want to have a pretty sizable advantage in numbers. Also, any earthworks the iron warriors construct are pretty darn impressive often giving as much, if not more protection than any fortress wall.

 raiden wrote:
Iron warriors would have lost the Cage

No.

Guilliman needed to bail Dorny-boy out.

Perturabo was toying with Dorn's forces, deliberately prolonging their humiliation and suffering.

Dorn was arguably insane at the time.

 Deadshot wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Deadshot wrote:
See, I'm interested in this Siege within a Siege lark. See, if all the Dorn-child fleets showed up, that is, the Successors and the IF fleet itself, it would easily outnumber the IW. The IWs have what? 10k something marines and equivilent fleets? The Black Templars have 6 000 themselves. Then there is the IF fleet, the Iron Knights, the Crimson Fists (depending on Timeline they may or may not). Then there is the White Templars, Red Templars, Invaders, Celestial Lions, Crusaders of Dorn, Crimson Axes, Death Strike, Emperor's Warbringers, Excoriators, Executioners, Fire Lords, Hammers of Dorn, Iron Champions, Knights of Dorn, Sons of Dorn, Night Swords, Subjugators and Venom Thorns. As I understand the Soul Drinkers are now renegade and wouldn't be welcome as a relief force, but if push comes to shove they may prioritise their Primarchial loyalty and hatred of the IV Legion as bred into them as the sons of Rogal Dorn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And the boot, I'm pretty sure the Imperial Navy would chuck their hat into the Ring, and if Daemons or Daemon Engines showed their mugs I'm sure the GK would come knocking. Not to mention the Inquisition to capture traitors for penance/torture/interrogation. And I'd put money on the Dark Angels and their successors looking for a Fallen in the mess. Then there'd be the Minotaurs "Checking in" to make sure no marines turn in that Chaotic turmoil. And I'm sure other Chapters in the area would come around. The Imperial Fists might ask a favour off the Ultramarines or Space Wolves. And the Imperial Guard will undoubtably arrive in some form or another. Then the PDF.

And then the Tau could show up, and they'll call in a favor with the Eldar... lol. This was between rival chapters, Imperial Fists and Iron Warriors.

Since I have yet to see much concession from the Loyalists as to the limits of their species, can I ask this question to just set the bar for all other discussions? Do you think the Imperium will defeat Chaos? Do you think the Imperium will maintain control of the universe?

If you said yes to either of those, I think you are a little delusional, however it is every bit of possible that you know something I do not. That said, just taken from the fundamental nature of things, it seems entirely impossible that Chaos could either be defeated (macro) or eliminated entirely, especially considering the objectives of Chaos are often times completely irreconcilable with Real Space such as the Scouring of Omegath or perhaps the Changelings spoor within the Gray Knight, Brother Brutus. If Man does not lose Terra or the Emperor returns to magically set things right, I think I'd lose a little respect for the writing. Does this mean Man has to be completely wiped out? No. I've said this in other threads, I think that actually makes humanity more interesting by making these Chapters survive from their homeworlds and adapt differently. Instead of "living in the cruelest and most bloody regime imaginable," maybe humanity does some real politicking with correctly asserted, socially beneficial Space Marine leadership, instead of servitude. Make the kids toughen up a little bit and take their inevitable defeat as a sign of great things to come. I know k-os certainly is. >D Like our loyalist counterparts in this scenario, I feel "the bad guys" shine brightest when they have glutted their ego's with ideas of superiority, only to have it usurped by the good guys.

Which is why the Iron Warriors have to kill Dorn...if he's not already dead. ;>>

I'm only trying to even things up. The IWs are still a Legion and the IF are a tenth of that, a Chapter. In the interest of fair examination, the IF should get their successors to help them. The IW also get Cultists and a larger, unrestricted fleet. And Daemons/ Engines so the GK even that up and the Imperial Guard even up the Cultists. I'm only making it a fair test. If it were just the IF chapter vs the IW Legion, no contest.

OK first, I don't think there are any concrete numbers on how many Iron Warriors remain, but saying the Fists are 1/10th of that number is probably generous towards the Fists. The legions were typically 100,000 strong during the Great Crusade. They took major casualties and plenty of warbands have split off, but they've also recruited heavily since then, and they retained a greater degree of unity than most other traitor legions. Perturabo is still around (although he doesn't come out to play often), and the Iron Warriors still have functioning Great Companies, which are each roughly chapter-strength. They also work alongside traitor titans so often they may as well be part of the legion. I think 10,000 Iron Warriors would be a very, very low-ball estimate of how many are still around.

So like I said earlier, it's really crucial to draw up some ground rules on who gets to be part of this fight. If the Iron Warriors are going all-out you're looking at tens of thousands of marines, plus lots of auxiliaries including titans, plus possibly a friggin' primarch. If it's just the Fists it's a bit silly, but you can't go crazy by inviting the whole Imperium to fight too. So sticking to successors, you could draw from Second Founding chapters (which nets you two or possibly three other chapters) or call on any of their descendants (which could be like 200 chapters). I think you have to go somewhere in between and give both sides roughly equal forces or else this whole discussion is pointless.

I have always known the Legions to be 10, 000 strong, with the exception of the Ultramarines who were much larger.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 raiden wrote:
Iron warriors would have lost the Cage

No.

Guilliman needed to bail Dorny-boy out.

Perturabo was toying with Dorn's forces, deliberately prolonging their humiliation and suffering.

pfft, he couldn't kill them off without wiping his own forces out, and was to scared to commit to that.

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn was arguably insane at the time.

Dorn has arguably been insane his entire life.


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 Deadshot wrote:
I have always known the Legions to be 10, 000 strong, with the exception of the Ultramarines who were much larger.

The new number is 100,000. The Ultramarines are particularly huge at 250,000.

A step in the right direction, but still realistically too small for the endeavor they have taken, so eh.


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 raiden wrote:

pfft, he couldn't kill them off without wiping his own forces out, and was to scared to commit to that.

He could easily have killed them, were he not such a sadist towards Dorn.

Perturabo is a better general than Dorn, who has lost every engagement we see him in (That I recall anyway), except, ironically, the one he died in.

Fair enough, but even still, my point still stands. The IF side being limited to just their own singular chapter wouldn't make a dent in the IWs. They need their successors to even hold a candle.

The thread maker gave both sides equal numbers.

Actually reading the thread does wonders.

Granted, that does mean the IF have a substantial advantage due to the nature of siege warfare, but that is neither here nor there.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn was arguably insane at the time.

Dorn has arguably been insane his entire life.

True but he was especially nutso at the Cage.

 Manchu wrote:
Dorn was arguably insane at the time.

Dorn was unarguably insane the whole time.

Dammit, beaten to it, lol.

Dorn is a genius. so much Dorn hating in this thread. Perturabo talked to a freaking painting made of blood and poo. . I agree he was a better swordsman and duelist than Dorn, but I don't quite see where he is a better tactical mind, and the fluff in my book clearly states that IW couldn't wipe them out without risking being wiped out themselves, so basically a stalemate

 raiden wrote:
Dorn is a genius. so much Dorn hating in this thread. Perturabo talked to a freaking painting made of blood and poo. . I agree he was a better swordsman and duelist than Dorn, but I don't quite see where he is a better tactical mind, and the fluff in my book clearly states that IW couldn't wipe them out without risking being wiped out themselves, so basically a stalemate

Are you on drugs?

Dorn was pretty much slowed from every account we have on him, and all he ever does is get his ass kicked.

You are talking about Fulgrim.

Perturabo was clearly the superior general... since he actually, you know, commanded an army of conquest, rather than warming the bench on Terra.

whoops, I am not to savvy on remember which chaos primarchs did what, they are all traitors and should be wiped from history . on another note, I have never read much about dorn "losing". hell its said he had the greatest military minds of all the primarchs (even more so than big old papa smurf guilliman) of course, I haven't read much about him WINNING either haha.