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 Void__Dragon wrote:
The thread maker gave both sides equal numbers.

Actually reading the thread does wonders.

Granted, that does mean the IF have a substantial advantage due to the nature of siege warfare, but that is neither here nor there.

Not kicking sand or anything, but the circumstances (or I should say the flow of the conversation) has moved beyond those limited and flawed parameters, because like you said, even sides in siege warfare is not even at all, since the very nature of the siege is greater outer numbers breaking into smaller, inner numbers. That said, the paramaters seem to have expanded to at least this:

Daemon Primarch-fiend Perturabo and Loyalist Primarchitect Dorn are there.
The IW and IF are doing what they do best; Sieging and being sieged (respectively).
Because of the nature of siege warfare, and because of the limitations placed on Loyalist Chapters v. the relatively rampant nature of Chaos Legions, it is clear that the IW are holding a numerical advantage, while the IF hold the advantage of fighting on their own turf, i.e. a fort of some kind. Let's go a step further and say the planet and fortress are one in the same.
It is IW at their daemon heritage v. the IF (and only the IF, though I might be willing to accept Black Templars, since it was my understanding that the Black Templars practically are what's left of the IF) at their finest.
All things considered, we are talking all qualifications met to consider this an official siege, which includes supply lines being cut off, or at the least, seriously harassed.

I know this seems like stacking against the guys I don't like, but I think this is the "epic" battle suggested by OP. Not this 200+ chapters + Gray Knights + Mechanicum Titans + the Emperor all show up to nuke Perturabo's iron face. Just a good ol' fashioned grudge match.

That said, if it's true Dorn is dead and he lost a lot of battles to his temper and Perturabo's ability to play at that temper, then the IF have already lost. Like I said though, it could happen no other way for without the loss of Dorn, would there be these other 200+ chapter contingents to draw upon? Or the legacy and lore of the Primarchs? Or any of the awesomesauce we are currently enjoying?

Sometimes the good guys have to lose in order to stop losing and start being awesome again. The good guy who never loses is boring and stupid. That's why so many people like Batman. He's fubar in the head from failing enough times.

With love, the Corpse-God and his Boy Scouts must die, if only to be reborn as the harbingers of doom for my brother-Chaos.

 Omegus wrote:
Iron Warriors defeated the Fists in every engagement they've had. Siege of Terra and the Cage. Nuff said.

not true

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

atlervetok wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
The Besieged typically lose to the Siege-r, for this reason alone: Whoever is held up in their fortress have to deal with dwindling supplies unless a supply route is secured, which is typically impossible in a siege scenario. There is also the problem with getting supplies that haven't been sabotaged as well. All the while, trying to keep your own walls from imploding.

Another good reason to say the Iron Warriors will ultimately win the siege? Daemons and Daemon engines. The Machine Spirit is no match to the foul works of the Warpsmiths. +__+

can i ask you why you think the besieged normally lose?
normally its the besieger who loses for one reason or the other thats why id have to give my vote to the imperial fists

Because we are not still building castles? "Laying siege" in the days of modern warfare takes on a whole new meaning, starting with the advent of the Cannonball. Essentially, the lesson learned was that it was better to be flexible and mobile than stagnant and grounded, though a fortified position was certainly an asset for individual combat. Sustained bombardment, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.

i suppose it depends what method is being used but a siege does not mean a castle
the siege of bastogne for example

The Death Korps would win.

Kriegers are the best at Siege warfare.

Enough heavy guns to grind any fortress to dust. Enough Boots to do the same...

atlervetok wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

atlervetok wrote:

TheRedWingArmada wrote:
The Besieged typically lose to the Siege-r, for this reason alone: Whoever is held up in their fortress have to deal with dwindling supplies unless a supply route is secured, which is typically impossible in a siege scenario. There is also the problem with getting supplies that haven't been sabotaged as well. All the while, trying to keep your own walls from imploding.

Another good reason to say the Iron Warriors will ultimately win the siege? Daemons and Daemon engines. The Machine Spirit is no match to the foul works of the Warpsmiths. +__+

can i ask you why you think the besieged normally lose?
normally its the besieger who loses for one reason or the other thats why id have to give my vote to the imperial fists

Because we are not still building castles? "Laying siege" in the days of modern warfare takes on a whole new meaning, starting with the advent of the Cannonball. Essentially, the lesson learned was that it was better to be flexible and mobile than stagnant and grounded, though a fortified position was certainly an asset for individual combat. Sustained bombardment, on the other hand, is another matter entirely.

i suppose it depends what method is being used but a siege does not mean a castle
the siege of bastogne for example

Agreed, however taken the example you mentioned and compare to the current goings on of IF (fortress builders) v. IW (fortress breakers). And as technology rises, the likely hood of a "siege" lessens. For example, the last "modern" siege we had was the Bombing of Baghdad by US forces, and that wasn't even a siege because, like war, "siege" implies that there are two armies involved... in the Bombing of Baghdad, there was only 1. The US.

But you illustrate WHY the siege and fortress structure is not entirely valid anymore as a means of waging war, although there are a number of reasons why (first and foremost being infiltration and sabotage are much easier than brute force tactics, at times): It's easier to hold a complex of structures you can hide in, rather than a centralized stronghold. Another reason why the fortress gets abandoned for mobile tactics? The Sapper ensured that the walls of a fortress never stood, and that the sappers themselves were relatively untouchable (short of digging a moat, which could still be drained). That being said, this tactic can be abandoned if we're talking about IF fortress planet (cause there is nothing to dig under) however, I feel like in even that scenario, Daemon Engines become then biggest prominent threat. Or more specifically, possession of IF machinery by Perturabo's Plague. +__+

Iron Warriors gets my vote.

dem troll-tastic tin cans...

As much as I would like to say Imperial Fists, they probably couldn't last against the sheer brutality of the Iron Warriors, who go to any lengths to win.

DKoK of course! Yeah sure individually each of your dudes is better. Yeah sure IW have stupidly broken daemonic machines that will slaughter thousands of IG.... buuuut they'll just throw more bodies and guns at you until you die drowned in bodies!

Oh hey look another edgy and original poster who responds to an Imperial Fists vs. Iron Warriors thread with the Death Korps of Krieg. Charming.

Does an edgy and thought provoking comment about how this was all an alpha legion scheme that intends to destroy both forces, for whatever far fetched reason for them to be involved work?

But in all seriousness, I think it would depend on who was leading each of the forces, and whether or not the powers of chaos had some ulterior motive or not ( like in that short story with lysander, the two space stations and the nasty IW fellow).

Also what about switching the roles? IF besieging the IW. who would win then?

Perturabo. Case closed.

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Also what about switching the roles? IF besieging the IW. who would win then?

That is a curious situation, but I think they would both be equally incompetent to those tasks. That said, I think it would be more likely that the IW would build up a fake strong point for the IF to take, then abandon it with a fair amount of trolling, before trapping the IF in their fake fortress and then laying waste to the whole thing.

And what ISN'T a Alpha Legion plot?

TheRedWingArmada wrote:

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:
Also what about switching the roles? IF besieging the IW. who would win then?

That is a curious situation, but I think they would both be equally incompetent to those tasks. That said, I think it would be more likely that the IW would build up a fake strong point for the IF to take, then abandon it with a fair amount of trolling, before trapping the IF in their fake fortress and then laying waste to the whole thing.

And what ISN'T a Alpha Legion plot?

Didn't that already happen?

Lord of Lustria wrote:
In a relatively fair and even siege would the iron warriors or imperial fists win if the iron warriors layed siege to an IF citadel? Discuss.

Iron warriors

The imperial Fists are stubborn bastards who happen to be good at siege warfare the Iron warriors activelly work to master siege warfare.

IMPERIAL FISTS, cuz angreh mahreens

 Mozzyfuzzy wrote:

Also what about switching the roles? IF besieging the IW. who would win then?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Iron_cage#.UnVdaOLZi8Y

 Crickate wrote:
As much as I would like to say Imperial Fists, they probably couldn't last against the sheer brutality of the Iron Warriors, who go to any lengths to win.

Except killing a quite obviously round the bend Fulgrim and the rest of the Emperor's Children. CONSORTING WITH XENOS!

This question cannot be answered with logic. But then again, who needs logic?

Iron within!

 Dantioch wrote:

 raiden wrote:
IF would have secured those supply routes, if they even need them. Remember the IF don't even need their whole legion/chapter to hold a fortress, they use few defenders and keep the rest as a mobile strike force. As a matter of fact, fluff wise everything points towards IF being the much better siege masters. (even horus himself)

IF were busting up the Iron warriors BEST fortress trap, without ANY planning at all... imagine if they had actually planned a strategic attack

If you'r refering to te Iron cage incident I don't think it was a walk in the park for the Imperial fists, couple of hundreds of marines dying for no real victory and having to be saved by the Ultramarines is hardly an easy victory.

As for the question itself Ihave to go with the fourth legion simply due to the nature of siege warfare, besiegers can always cut the supply line at which point it's only a matter of time before there is no more food and ammunition. Secondly, no matter how well you build your walls, sooner or later a part of it is going to collapse from enough shelling. And thirdly the Iron warriors legion is still a legion not a chapter, ie they can field a much larger number of marines as well as slaves and traitor guard while the imperial fists are stuck at slightly less than a thuosand marines.

And yes I know that the fists could field imperial guard soldiers and PDF forces as well, but I would argue that it's not the same as the IW slaves and traitor guard as the IG and PDF follow a separate command chain and can never be a permanent part of the fist army whereas the slaves are fully dependant and subservient to the fourth legion.

'relatively even'
As in: Same number of marines/support units, not the 1000 marines vs a legion xD

At VD and Redwing, I wasn't talking about it in an iron cage sense, more along the lines of what if the IW were really besieged? Not come at me bro and then taunt him mercilessly until he rushes into a fortification without really thinking about it, I mean if thats all it takes for Dorn to become a blundering idiot, I'm surprised he even made it to the horus heresy, although being sat at terra probably helped.

Dorn knew what it was. Knew what would happen. And did it anyway to avoid civil war again because his legion didn't want to split up.

So he intentionally bum rushed an 'obvious' trap just to get Guilliuman to pull his backside out? So that he could say "listen guys, the ultramarines really saved us back there, maybe we should follow their ideas, and split into smaller forces.

Just reread the iron cage, jeez I mean "I didn't originally like the codex idea, so now that I do my legion also has to suffer" good going Dorn, really doing well to cement your character as reliable and level headed.

No. He lead them into a (rather successful bum rush considering) of the trap as a purge through pain type thing. He lessened the number of his legion so it would be easier for his mean to split. Either way if the ultras had not stopped both sides were heading towards being wiped out.

How was it successful? Sure he ended up with a smaller hardened group, But he's a Primarch for crying out loud, he could have just said "look, I made a mistake and we are going to split the legion", it says that his captain weren't happy with being there but loyally stood by him, if they were so loyal I think they could have accepted being split up without a large number of them being murdered and helping perturabo to reach daemonhood.

And to be honest the whole "I made a mistake by not accepting the codex, so the whole legion has to undergo 'group' pain glove exercises" is pretty stupid as a decision, it might just be the part of me that really likes the AL and RG talking.

 raiden wrote:
No. He lead them into a (rather successful bum rush considering) of the trap as a purge through pain type thing. He lessened the number of his legion so it would be easier for his mean to split. Either way if the ultras had not stopped both sides were heading towards being wiped out.

Holy feth man, you sure about that?

I think Dorn is a psychotic clown, but you're painting him as a sociopathic monster.

After the fall of the Emperor, Dorn was stricken with grief. He felt the Emperor's near demise to be his fault and led his Legion on a crusade of penitence across the Imperium. He was summoned back to Terra when Roboute Guilliman announced the adoption of his Codex Astartes, turning Legions into Chapters. Dorn was initially outraged at this proposal, feeling that the Imperium blamed him (and rightly so, he thought) for the fall of his brother marines. But realizing what damage another internal conflict could do to the fragile peace of the Imperium, Dorn agreed. This was a dark period in Rogal Dorn's life; he had both failed the Emperor and his legion faltered without the guiding light of the Emperor[

Some controversy exists about the next event in Rogal Dorn's life. What is clear is that the Imperial Fists could not be as easily divided into chapters as, for example the Ultramarines could. The total commitment to the legion was bred into each marine and many didn't wish to form their own chapters. Dorn found the answer to this problem in meditation through self-inflicted pain, using a device known as the Pain Glove. The pain-induced vision revealed that his legion had to be redeemed in the eyes of the Emperor, and that the way to salvation was through pain and self-sacrifice

The 'collective pain' needed to cleanse the Chapter was decided by Dorn to be an Iron Warriors' fortress, the Iron Cage. Perturabo had built the massive fortifications to mock the Imperial Fists, and Dorn led his most die-hard followers in a siege that would last for several weeks. Followers of the Iron Warriors claim that the Imperial Fists suffered a crushing defeat, and that Dorn and his legion would have been wiped out if Perturabo hadn't prolonged Dorn's suffering so long that the Ultramarines managed to intervene

Imperial records indicate otherwise. The Imperial Fists had always been masters of siege craft, and even unprepared and at a disadvantage they fought like lions. Dorn stood as a giant in their midst, his mind clear with purpose after years of doubt and guilt. The Iron Warriors would have had to sacrifice their lives and Primarch to destroy the Imperial Fists, a price they weren't ready to pay. The arrival of the Ultramarines cut the conflict short and the Iron Warriors fled for the Eye of Terror. The Imperial Fists had suffered staggering losses, but they had proved their loyalty to the Emperor and cleansed themselves of earlier failures

What remained of the Legion was divided into three Chapters. The most zealous marines formed the Black Templars; the more rational and newly recruited marines the Crimson Fists and the ones most devoted to their Primarch and Legion remained the Imperial Fists. Rogal Dorn spent the next twenty years rebuilding and reforming his chapter according to the standards of the Index Astartes. (There were other chapters, like the Soul Drinkers for instance, though it is unclear when they came into existence.)


there it is.

"Imperial records" lol.

Anyway, holy feth I had no idea Dorn was such a psychopath.

he was a genius, alas most geniuses are semi insane.

and personally I am willing to believe the imperial records over some lame egotistical chaos marine boasting

Your claim does not realy change the fact that the IW won, only that Dorn knew what was going to happen and still went into the Iron cage. Furthermore there is no reason for the IWs to lie about the outcome of the battle while the imperium has both the motive and the power, heardof the inquisition, to retcon the history to suit their needs, ie Dorn isn't a psychopath that charges mindlessly into a heavily defended fortress, he is a hero that cleansed his legion's name through voluntary martyrdom.

And it can't realy have gone that bad for Perturabo since the Chaos gods gifted him an acension to Daemon prince status for the victory at the iron cage.

 Dantioch wrote:
Your claim does not realy change the fact that the IW won, only that Dorn knew what was going to happen and still went into the Iron cage. Furthermore there is no reason for the IWs to lie about the outcome of the battle while the imperium has both the motive and the power, heardof the inquisition, to retcon the history to suit their needs, ie Dorn isn't a psychopath that charges mindlessly into a heavily defended fortress, he is a hero that cleansed his legion's name through voluntary martyrdom.

And it can't realy have gone that bad for Perturabo since the Chaos gods gifted him an acension to Daemon prince status for the victory at the iron cage.

But was it really a victory for IW? I think about it for a moment: Perturabo failed to eradicate Dorn and his remaining men, and was granted daemonhood by the dark gods for his troubles, which is actually a bad thing (explained below.)
I think Perturabo made a huge mistake when he decided to prolong Dorn suffering instead of trying to finish them all off, as the survivors of the Iron cage incident would go on to form the BTs, who have proven very useful in purging the galaxy of Xenos and heretics. The fact that Dorn still drew breath after the iron cage incident, was a also terrible mistake on Perps part, a mistake that would come back to bite chaos in the arse later on, as the man in yellow was instrumental in stopping a black crusade.

Then we have Perturabo himself, who was granted the best possible reward a servant of chaos could hope for. That’s very good, but only for Perturabo that is, as his ascension to deamonhood meant that he would no longer take an active part in the Great War against the imperium, for the dark gods and their demonic servants cares little for their underling’s struggles against the IoM. This left the IW without their greatest leader, which more or less put them in the same position as their nemesis, the IF lol.

 Dantioch wrote:
there is no reason for the IWs to lie about the outcome of the battle

It is normal for chaos to lie and mislead . Even if what they said was true, do you for one moment believe, that the haughty Iron warriors wouldn’t add a little to the story? Remember, IW is by far one of the most arrogant of all the traitor legions.