There have always been polls such as most favorite Primarch or who is the best fighter etc etc, but I haven't seen one that is about who is the least liked. Always if you can explain why they are the one you like the least.

For me it is going to have to be the Lion, in my eyes he isn't much more than a severely paranoid guy who didn't trust his best friend and decided to him and some other marines home to "train recruits" which was an excuse for their banishment, he ignored all space mail from them and then when he finally decided to go home he bombed them to smithereens. Plus he had massive mood swings which led him to decapitating one of his own guys for pretty much no reason at all (I'm still undecided on whether this is cool or bad writing) which makes him seem like a teenage girl who on their period.

So there is my answer as to who I dislike the most, who is your most disliked Primarch?

Leman Russ, he seems to have the same idealized moral system as, say, Gulliman, but he over reacts and attacks/provokes people to prove a point that didn't need to be proven or fight a battle that never need to be fought. He seems to be a character that had his own code then when the Emperor came and gave him some new information he applied it to his previous upbringing but it didn't blend in a good way in the end. Does he even have his own problems? Because it seems his only real problems in life were the other Primarchs. Everything else he could just use his Primarch powers on to reliably solve.

or something like that.

why so much hate on the lion? sure one or two books had him portrayed badly with bad writing but hey, the guy is pretty awesome.

Fulgrim. His fall was born from doubt. His burning need to be perfect is what drove him to Slaanesh (that and the daemon bound into his sword), but if he had faith that perfection could be reached by mortal hands Slaanesh would have had no hold over his soul. On top of that, Fulgrim's own soul is now trapped in a painting, while some greater daemon got the actual rewards. This makes him incompetent in my mind as well. Finally, the flipping daemon-primarch doesn't DO anything recently either. Magnus at least attacked the Fang, Mortarion has virus bombed a couple of worlds, and Angron had his little jaunt on Armageddon. In short, Fulgrim sucks (bu-dum-tish)

actually didn't fulgrim kick the sht outa that daemon and send him packing eventually?

Fulgrim is probably my second most disliked primarch and you my friend summed up everything there very well. The fact he killed Ferrus too, who was his closest friend out of everyone to really sucks. But there is a bit in the fight scene where he couldn't deliver the final killing blow, his swords moves his arm and decapitates Ferrus for Fulgrim is the only thing that I like about him. But I thought it was stated that Fulgrim managed to get out off the painting?

Yeah, pretty much none of the demon primach do stuff now, the only ones that get done is Angron when he smashed up Armageddon and Magnus when he smashed up the fang. Mortarion just sits on his planet doing nothing, hell didn't a grey knight carve his name onto his heart? Way to make the Demon primach look dull and weak GW

Leman Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuussssss!!!!!!

BaconUprising wrote:
Leman Ruuuuuuuuuuuuuuussssss!!!!!!

not going to question that, he beat up Magnus big time and he's my favorite pretty much, but why do you dislike him

oh, brilliant name by the way

Cheers Watch your Bacon carefully... anyway I hate him because he's basically like a WHFB dwarf in space pretending to be a wolf.

Perturabo just edges out lorgar for me, but mainly cause I'm a son of Dorn

Leman Russ. Because 'WOLF WOLF BEER BROTHERKILLING WOLF FANBOYS!!!11'

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Leman Russ. Because 'WOLF WOLF BEER BROTHERKILLING WOLF FANBOYS!!!11'

Wolves re my favourite animals but I still manage to despise Leman Russ...

BaconUprising wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Leman Russ. Because 'WOLF WOLF BEER BROTHERKILLING WOLF FANBOYS!!!11'

Wolves re my favourite animals but I still manage to despise Leman Russ...

Beware, soon it will be evening, and it is then that the Claw-brothers of the Space Wolves Bloodwolf Pack of Wolfriders shall wolf us all, with their mighty bloodclaw wolves!

 thenoobbomb wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

 thenoobbomb wrote:
Leman Russ. Because 'WOLF WOLF BEER BROTHERKILLING WOLF FANBOYS!!!11'

Wolves re my favourite animals but I still manage to despise Leman Russ...

Beware, soon it will be evening, and it is then that the Claw-brothers of the Space Wolves Bloodwolf Pack of Wolfriders shall wolf us all, with their mighty bloodclaw wolves!

where I am the moon is up I can hear the hungry howls of the bloodclaws as they stalk the haters of wolves so be careful...

Ah man, I quite like Perturabo haha

Ferrus Manus. If we go by Forgeworld fluff the guy is borderline psycho and an unashamed fascist, randomly murdering civilians on compliant worlds just to please that foppish bishounen parody of a man that goes by the name of Fulgrim, and for the sake of it.

Really, I don't care how doggedly loyal he says he is, he's only slightly below Curze on the 40k scale of bastardness. Needless to say, I'm glad he ended with his head on a plate, served by his best buddy in genocide Fulgrim, no less.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Ferrus Manus. If we go by Forgeworld fluff the guy is borderline psycho and an unashamed fascist, randomly murdering civilians on compliant worlds just to please that foppish bishounen parody of a man that goes by the name of Fulgrim, and for the sake of it.

Now that fluff I haven't heard! Where can I read up on that or is that in the Horus heresy rulebooks?

Lorgar. He is a whiner who doesn't get anything done, leads his legion into Chaos because his father told him not to do something (although I will admit that the Emperor acted really stupidly), got manipulated by his own sons, and hasn't left the Eye at all since the Heresy. The fact he destroyed Calth doesn't help his case either.

 raiden wrote:
actually didn't fulgrim kick the sht outa that daemon and send him packing eventually?

Just checked the fluff; yeah. The point still stands that he got out-maneuvered by the daemon and barring the interdiction of Graham McNeill (who wrote the short story that freed him) would still be a pinned to the wall of some warp-dust smoker's den....

I'm quite surprised to see that Leman Russ is actually winning... I knew quite a few people disliked him, but not that he was the most disliked!

 tomball0706 wrote:
I'm quite surprised to see that Leman Russ is actually winning... I knew quite a few people disliked him, but not that he was the most disliked!

He's like marmite. You love him or you hate him (although some people just don't mind which just screws up the system but OH WELL) anyway yeah it's not that everyone hates him it's just that the people who doe dislike him are posting here.

 tomball0706 wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Ferrus Manus. If we go by Forgeworld fluff the guy is borderline psycho and an unashamed fascist, randomly murdering civilians on compliant worlds just to please that foppish bishounen parody of a man that goes by the name of Fulgrim, and for the sake of it.

Now that fluff I haven't heard! Where can I read up on that or is that in the Horus heresy rulebooks?

Yep, it's on HH2: Massacre, the Iron Hands' "exemplary battle". Basically a simple compliance action turned into a bloodbath and a senseless waste of time and resources thanks to the combined tactical genius of Fulgrim and Ferrus.

But even if you don't own a copy of Massacre, reasons for hating Mr. Hands abound:

- He keeps Medusa in a state of permanent warfare just to put his dumb social darwinist ideas to the test. Cull the weak so that only the strong survive. Ironically, wars have the exact opposite effect on a population - The best of the lot are frequently the first to the fray and, in consequence, the first to die, leaving only cowards and cripples behind to pass their genes.

Amongst the few meekly self-serving cowards that somehow manage to survive the high rates of attrition on Medusa, Mr. Manus finds suitable recruits for the Iron Hands, something that almost every other Primarch seem to do effortlessly without turning their homeworlds into war-torn hellholes. Anyways, I don't think he cares a lot for the quality of his prospective Astartes warriors, as regardless of their disposition he's going to chop off their arms and legs and put them into glorified futuristic versions of stump legs and motorized wheelchairs. What leads us to...

- Not content with just ruling over a world of terrified meeklings, he was set on leading a legion of cripples. His warriors enjoy a superhuman biology, but Manus and his lot believed they'd be better off with a whirring, leaky Blag Mk.I Exploding Leg and an Ipod Shuffle for a brain. For some reason, given command of an entire legion of Astartes Warriors, Manus wasn't happy enough. Perhaps he preferred a couple cohorts of Thallaxi instead.

"The flesh is weak", says Ferrus, something that a baseline human subject to ailments, injury and a limited lifespan (even more limited if he or she had the disgrace of being born in Medusa) would probably agree on, but that seems the epitome of dumb coming from the mouth of a posthuman demigod gifted with a body patterned after that of the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind himself. Manus was either being an hypocrite or an inexcusable idiot.

- His fetishism for strenght, equal parts fascist banter and gym locker room bravado, is actually very telling. We fetishize the unattainable. Considering he was the first Primarch to bite the dust, thanks in no small part to his apparent overconfidence, leads me to believe that, perhaps, there was an insecure weakling lying behind a carefully cultivated façade of strenght and steely determination.

In all, Ferrus Manus strikes me as the kind of guy that hides his many shortcomings under the guise of brutality and extremism.

BaconUprising wrote:

 tomball0706 wrote:
I'm quite surprised to see that Leman Russ is actually winning... I knew quite a few people disliked him, but not that he was the most disliked!

He's like marmite. You love him or you hate him (although some people just don't mind which just screws up the system but OH WELL) anyway yeah it's not that everyone hates him it's just that the people who doe dislike him are posting here.

ah yes, of course, that's a very good point, feel rather foolish for saying it now haha

Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 tomball0706 wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Ferrus Manus. If we go by Forgeworld fluff the guy is borderline psycho and an unashamed fascist, randomly murdering civilians on compliant worlds just to please that foppish bishounen parody of a man that goes by the name of Fulgrim, and for the sake of it.

Now that fluff I haven't heard! Where can I read up on that or is that in the Horus heresy rulebooks?

Yep, it's on HH2: Massacre, the Iron Hands' "exemplary battle". Basically a simple compliance action turned into a bloodbath and a senseless waste of time and resources thanks to the combined tactical genius of Fulgrim and Ferrus.

But even if you don't own a copy of Massacre, reasons for hating Mr. Hands abound:

- He keeps Medusa in a state of permanent warfare just to put his dumb social darwinist ideas to the test. Cull the weak so that only the strong survive. Ironically, wars have the exact opposite effect on a population - The best of the lot are frequently the first to the fray and, in consequence, the first to die, leaving only cowards and cripples behind to pass their genes.

Amongst the few meekly self-serving cowards that somehow manage to survive the high rates of attrition on Medusa, Mr. Manus finds suitable recruits for the Iron Hands, something that almost every other Primarch seem to do effortlessly without turning their homeworlds into war-torn hellholes. Anyways, I don't think he cares a lot for the quality of his prospective Astartes warriors, as regardless of their disposition he's going to chop off their arms and legs and put them into glorified futuristic versions of stump legs and motorized wheelchairs. What leads us to...

- Not content with just ruling over a world of terrified meeklings, he was set on leading a legion of cripples. His warriors enjoy a superhuman biology, but Manus and his lot believed they'd be better off with a whirring, leaky Blag Mk.I Exploding Leg and an Ipod Shuffle for a brain. For some reason, given command of an entire legion of Astartes Warriors, Manus wasn't happy enough. Perhaps he preferred a couple cohorts of Thallaxi instead.

"The flesh is weak", says Ferrus, something that a baseline human subject to ailments, injury and a limited lifespan (even more limited if he or she had the disgrace of being born in Medusa) would probably agree on, but that seems the epitome of dumb coming from the mouth of a posthuman demigod gifted with a body patterned after that of the Immortal God-Emperor of Mankind himself. Manus was either being an hypocrite or an inexcusable idiot.

- His fetishism for strenght, equal parts fascist banter and gym locker room bravado, is actually very telling. We fetishize the unattainable. Considering he was the first Primarch to bite the dust, thanks in no small part to his apparent overconfidence, leads me to believe that, perhaps, there was an insecure weakling lying behind a carefully cultivated façade of strenght and steely determination.
In all, Ferrus Manus strikes me as the kind of guy that hides his many shortcomings under the guise of brutality and extremism.

They're all good points, I knew some but not about his homeworld Medusa, however, correct me if im wrong, but wasn't there some fluff kicking round about how Ferrus was disliking how his legion we're replacing bodyparts by the dozen and wanted to phase that out after the crusade, but as he died it never got implemented?

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Ferrus Manus strikes me as the kind of guy that hides his many shortcomings under the guise of brutality and extremism.

just like Angron but we all love him...

BaconUprising wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Ferrus Manus strikes me as the kind of guy that hides his many shortcomings under the guise of brutality and extremism.

just like Angron but we all love him...

Not true, least favorite Primarch of mine, followed by Ferrus Manus, who was much cooler before the HH books made him into a giant bag of dicks.

For me, it's the Primarch of the second Legion. He was just really unlikable.

 derek wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Ferrus Manus strikes me as the kind of guy that hides his many shortcomings under the guise of brutality and extremism.

just like Angron but we all love him...

Not true, least favorite Primarch of mine, followed by Ferrus Manus, who was much cooler before the HH books made him into a giant bag of dicks.

I'll take Angron's "Hurr durr break things!!!" attitude over Ferrus' "Earn the air you breathe, puny human" anytime.

But agreed, Angron is a mess. The Emperor should have given him the mercy shot the moment he found him, but he thought perhaps it would be fun if one of his legions of invaluable gene-enhanced warriors was led by a functional idiot with the temper of a fighting bull. Well, at least he's got that freaky implant doing bad, bad things to his brains as an excuse, while Ferrus derives his douchebaggery from perhaps too many hours of surfing neonazi websites while listening to Kraftwerk's "The man-machine" on repeat. Like El'Jonson, Fulgrim, Perturabo and many other illustrious d-bags of the far future, he has no alibi.

Erm. Iron within iron without. Easy choice rogal dorn. For the record perturabo's issues were forced upon him by a lack of respect from his father and his brothers. Hey we conquered this world.. Lets move on and leave the iron warriors to babysit.
And you wonder why they joined the rebellion. Lmfao

 tomball0706 wrote:
I'm quite surprised to see that Leman Russ is actually winning... I knew quite a few people disliked him, but not that he was the most disliked!

Not speaking for everyone on here, I was about to click Leman Russ but realised it's not actually Russ I dislike. He's a bit of a dick in his approach to matters at times but it's mainly the Russ fanboys I cannot stand. Russ this Russ that, he is tarnished by my thoughts of them.

After that moment of clarity I voted for Lorgar, mainly because I believe he is for want of a better word, a tw*t.

Whilst that accusation is true for a number of the Primarchs for various reasons, Lorgars immense daddy doesn't love me issues get right on my tits.

 tomball0706 wrote:
They're all good points, I knew some but not about his homeworld Medusa, however, correct me if im wrong, but wasn't there some fluff kicking round about how Ferrus was disliking how his legion we're replacing bodyparts by the dozen and wanted to phase that out after the crusade, but as he died it never got implemented?

Oh yep! There's a passing mention of that in the FW books IIRC. Seems to be a BL idea, though, can't remember when or where it's said.

Thing is, seems the machine-worship is mostly a Medusan tradition Ferrus has lived in for his whole life, but doesn't fully approve of.

There's also an interesting bit that might explain his demeanor, too. At one time in his youth, he got in a wrestling match with a certain creature...

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 tomball0706 wrote:
They're all good points, I knew some but not about his homeworld Medusa, however, correct me if im wrong, but wasn't there some fluff kicking round about how Ferrus was disliking how his legion we're replacing bodyparts by the dozen and wanted to phase that out after the crusade, but as he died it never got implemented?

Oh yep! There's a passing mention of that in the FW books IIRC. Seems to be a BL idea, though, can't remember when or where it's said.

Thing is, seems the machine-worship is mostly a Medusan tradition Ferrus has lived in for his whole life, but doesn't fully approve of.

There's also an interesting bit that might explain his demeanor, too. At one time in his youth, he got in a wrestling match with a certain creature...

Spoiler:

It's hinted it was some sort of high-level Necron, perhaps something even more powerful

ooooo, now that I did not know, I know he got into fisty cuffs with a gorgon or something and blah blah blah later he ended up with his liquid metal hands, but the idea that the thing he fought was that puts a very good twist on that story perhaps that is how he got so good at forging and stuff by physically becoming like/part cron

 tomball0706 wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 tomball0706 wrote:
They're all good points, I knew some but not about his homeworld Medusa, however, correct me if im wrong, but wasn't there some fluff kicking round about how Ferrus was disliking how his legion we're replacing bodyparts by the dozen and wanted to phase that out after the crusade, but as he died it never got implemented?

Oh yep! There's a passing mention of that in the FW books IIRC. Seems to be a BL idea, though, can't remember when or where it's said.

Thing is, seems the machine-worship is mostly a Medusan tradition Ferrus has lived in for his whole life, but doesn't fully approve of.

There's also an interesting bit that might explain his demeanor, too. At one time in his youth, he got in a wrestling match with a certain creature...

Spoiler:

It's hinted it was some sort of high-level Necron, perhaps something even more powerful

ooooo, now that I did not know, I know he got into fisty cuffs with a gorgon or something and blah blah blah later he ended up with his liquid metal hands, but the idea that the thing he fought was that puts a very good twist on that story perhaps that is how he got so good at forging and stuff by physically becoming like/part cron

At one point in the HH storyline, Ferrus Manus wowed to rid his legion of its practice of replacing flesh with machine parts and iron. He even wanted to purge the xeno metal covering his hands, which is a real bummer considering how awesome those silver hands are.

Dorn. He's just so snore-worthy. Plus he made his marines paint their armour an ugly yellow. That's just not cool.

Edited for spelling, yo.

I just dont like Gulliman, I dont know why. Maybe how he bragged to Alpharious about how good the ultramarines where. Maybe its how he wants everyone to fight like the ultramarines, and how he made all the legions split into small chapters. I just don't like him.

 Redcruisair wrote:
At one point in the HH storyline, Ferrus Manus wowed to rid his legion of its practice of replacing flesh with machine parts and iron. He even wanted to purge the xeno metal covering his hands, which is a real bummer considering how awesome those silver hands are.

Oh, didn't know of the hands thing. I wonder if he'd have changed his name accordingly.

It strikes me as odd, really, as Ferrus wasn't the guy to shy away from exotic or forbidden tech. He even kept a secret stockpile of it, unknown even to the Mechanicum.

I never really felt a reason to like Khan, he just seemed very boring. Same with Corax, and Vulkan. I really liked the Iron Warriors but felt that Perturabo was kind of bland. I always hated Mortarion for being such a prick to Magnus during his trial and just again overall blandness despite looking badass. I never liked Night Haunter for being such a violent and paranoid guy even though its not entirely his fault but still. Can't say I know too much about the Lion, surprised to see so much hate for Russ.

BaconUprising wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Ferrus Manus strikes me as the kind of guy that hides his many shortcomings under the guise of brutality and extremism.

just like Angron but we all love him...

Wrong for all his faults Angron has never lied about who he is and most tellingly has never ever drank the emperors Kool Aid.

Angron is one of the most honest of Primarchs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ferrus for me is the most disliked Primarch.

At best he is redundant at worst he is a reckless fool.

Other then his silver hands Ferrus has NOTHING that sets him apart from his brothers.

Tactical skill ? No 4-5 Primarchs easily outstrip him

Iron will ? No every primarch has an iron will.

Technological skill ? Vulkan and Perturabo equal or surpass him in this

Strength ? Vulkan is stronger

Combat skill ? Angron Russ The Lion The Khan Fulgrim Guilliman Horus the Angel easily surpass him.

Had ferrus never been found the crusade would have been fine without him.

godking wrote:
Wrong for all his faults Angron has never lied about who he is and most tellingly has never ever drank the emperors Kool Aid.

Angron is one of the most honest of Primarchs.

To me Angron is just a bad morning cartoon villain trapped in a Primarch’s body. ADB made a good job portraying him in Betrayer, but in the end of the day the chraracter “Angron” is simply just a really angry dude, who’s out to kill the entire universe for no apparent reason hrrrrm.

godking wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Ferrus for me is the most disliked Primarch.

At best he is redundant at worst he is a reckless fool.

Other then his silver hands Ferrus has NOTHING that sets him apart from his brothers.

Tactical skill ? No 4-5 Primarchs easily outstrip him

Iron will ? No every primarch has an iron will.

Technological skill ? Vulkan and Perturabo equal or surpass him in this

Strength ? Vulkan is stronger

Combat skill ? Angron Russ The Lion The Khan Fulgrim Guilliman Horus the Angel easily surpass him.

Had ferrus never been found the crusade would have been fine without him.

This only really matters if you are basing your likes and dislikes on how much a character stands out from the crowd. For me personally, Guilliman rank as my favourite Primarch precisely because he doesn’t have anything unique or special about him, no metal hands, no red skin and magic powers, no secret twin brother and most certainly not a raging need to put the entire universe under the axe because a certain Emperor decided to screw him over.

Don't take my comment as a dislike for Angron, I think these awesome! My second favourite Primarch (joint with Magnus) after the mighty Horus

To be fair, I think that Ferrus might not be very fleshed out because he got relatively little fluff about him compared to his brothers. They didn't really focus on him very much, from what I've seen.

 Troike wrote:
To be fair, I think that Ferrus might not be very fleshed out because he got relatively little fluff about him compared to his brothers. They didn't really focus on him very much, from what I've seen.

I agree, Ferrus only just has more than the Khan and BL are releasing loads of eBooks for him and his legion so had Ferrus become the least wrote about Primarch? he only has side line plotlines in all the stories that I have read including him

Well, the good news, as a Salamanders fan, Vulkan is winning in terms of the least votes.

I voted for the Wolf. I dislike much of the Space Wolves fluff, and Russ always bothered me for being a confused character. Is he honourable, or just a drunken mess who takes offense at the smallest slight? But I think that's a theme for the legion and the current chapter too.

Their codex doesn't help with the 'wolfy mcwolferson riding a mega wolf swinging his wolf pattern wolf claw'. Wolf.

A lot of good points about Ferrus though. Was never really a fan of him either.

Gulliman, because he is the primarch of the ultramarine, and i hate them. Plus he thinks he really is great

This kind of has two answers.

Lorgar, because he was a weakling, mentally and physically. But he's been written so well in the series.

Curze, because he's been written so astoundingly badly in the series, even though he used to be one of my favorites.

 necronspurs2012 wrote:
Gulliman, because he is the primarch of the ultramarine, and i hate them. Plus he thinks he really is great

He has judged himself correctly then.

 Redcruisair wrote:
He has judged himself correctly then.

Exalted.

Horus.

He is described as the best. The Black Legion CSM are the poster-boys of Chaos. That´s enough for me to despise him.

Yet he has no connection with the black legion as they were essentially formed after his death.

Why are people hating on the Khan? He's barely a shadow of a character.

Everyone voting for Guilliman are just jealous.

Quick question. Which one was the whiny little brat who cried whenever he didn't get his way?

Hmm...

Lorgar - I am not anti-religion but the blind devotion he once had to the Emp so easily turned to Chaos worshiping.

Russ - As most have stated. Arrogant/WolfieWolf

Alpharius/Omergon - I don't dislike the idea of their characters. I just don't like the "oh the plan didn't work... or did it?" crap. It's especially not funny in forums. Give it up!

I'd go with Lorgar since he seems the weakest as a warrior.

To be honest they are all mostly badly written/extremely flawed individuals who were given waaaaaay too much power considering their mental states.

That is except (god am I going to write this....) Roboute Gulliman, I am not the UM's no.1 fan but In him lies the balance of leader, warrior, tactician and HUMAN, which most of them lack. Also people saying he is arrogant should remember he was ready to be-throne another Primarch.

I am an Imperial Fist / Dorn guy but even I can see he is an arrogant mental mess in comparison.

Hi, my name is Angron and I'm really really red and really really angry and my name is Angron, did I mention I'm quite angry?

Special mentions to Russ and The Lion for more examples of awful character development.

Horus, so easily turned, even when he knew that erebus was behind it!

 Happyjew wrote:
Quick question. Which one was the whiny little brat who cried whenever he didn't get his way?

Uh, pretty much all of them except the goody two shoes ones?

 Happyjew wrote:
Quick question. Which one was the whiny little brat who cried whenever he didn't get his way?

All of them?

Leman Russ. There is a soft, warm place in my heart....erm cold, dark, solemn place of ritual in my blood pumping organ for Lion El'Jonson, so yeah.

This is pretty close to my expectations.

Russ for being a huge jackass to everyone (even if you say it's a cultural thing since all the Wolves are huge jackasses, that's no excuse).

Roubote due to jealous haters.

A tad surprised at Lorgar's numbers, but he and his sons are the biggest dicks in the universe so it makes sense.

I'm loving how this has developed!

I agree with pretty much all of it, but i'm somewhat confused on the Lorgar hate, sure he was never a warrior, but he was never trained to be one, he was much like Magnus and was the "philosophical/religious" of the primarchs, he was the one who led the worship of the Emperor and wrote nearly every litany that the space marines say now plus all the sermons and such that the priests lead? All from the book of Lorgar haha 10 thousand years later and the cult of the Emperor is still being lead by the book of Lorgar. In my eyes it's his legionaries that are the dickish ones, looking right at you Erebus and Kor Phaeron

Ferrus Mannus is definitely the worst. He adds nothing that others can't do better.

For me Mortarion is the least likeable. What exactly does he do? Has he ever been described as formidable in any way? He seems quite dull to me.

The Lectitio Divinatus (the actual name of his first book, the Book of Lorgar is a series of daemonology manuals) focused on the Emperor's divinity and how he loves us and other hippy crap. The Imperial Cult bears little resemblance to the original message, being a lot more focused on fire and brimstone and punishing the wicked. Think of the difference between Jesus' teachings and the actions of later Christians in the Crusades and during the witch hunts/Inquisition.

And for all his complaints about not being a warrior, this is a guy who as a child spearheaded a bloody crusade that murdered half of his home planet. Sure, he's all regretful about the "necessity"of it, but does it anyway. Same thing with the Primordial Truth, he may say he's all sad about the "necessity" to sacrifice entire systems to the horrors of the Warp, but he does it anyway.

Lorgar. I think a legions leading characters say a lot about their primarch, and whilst most legions have some d*ckish leading characters they still have leading lights. Apart from Argal Tal who do the word bearers have? Erebus is the biggest tw*t going in the entire series. Kor Pheron is just a douche. And Lorgar himself... so utterly insecure, selfish and with a blind rigid devotion, not to a particular belief (that changed quickely) but just of religion itself. He doesn't care what he believes just as long as he believes, and those types of people are dangerous nutjobs who cannot reason for themselves. If it wasn't for Argal Tal, I would not have enjoyed anything to do with the word bearers. And they orchestrated the entire heresy due to a major sulk! Pr*cks! Sorry - rant over.

VensersRevenge wrote:
Lorgar. He is a whiner who doesn't get anything done

This is factually untrue.

I'm shocked that Sanguinus has got so many votes! Not that I'm particularly fond of Loyalists, but I thought that such a goody two-shoes should be more liked than that... Wait a minute...

What I don´t get is why Vulcan is the one with 0 votes. He was my second choice.

And as a Lorgar fan, I like him getting so much hate. Hate is the way to the Dark Gods, he would be pleased.

 Omegus wrote:

Roubote due to jealous haters.

What if they dislike him for being a pussy?

At the moment he stands out as the only Primarch to have been wholly and utterly defeated by a mortal in single combat. His fight with Kor Phaeron was not even close.

Anyway, I don't know who I'd choose. Possibly the Lion, now that Dan Abnett has molded him into something awful with his fat, bald hands, but that seems unfair because I haven't actually read the book.

Perhaps Vulkan for being included into the worst subplot in the series.

Actually, I think I'll go with Horus. His fall was tragically handled badly, and he hasn't been interesting to read about since Horus Rising. To make matters worse, despite being Warmaster, no one seems to respect him. Lorgar makes it very clear to Horus that he is running things and Horus is a figurehead, Angron tolerates Horus only because he hates the Emperor more, and Magnus openly defies him with a sneer on his flagship (Lorgar does the same though). For the big bad of the series, he just comes off as so impotent.

Leman Russ in my least favorite primarch by far.

He should be super cool, but has been written to be too many things at once and just comes off as a raging donkey-cave instead. Much like the SW's in general...should be super cool, come off very poorly as a result of bad writing.

Not specifically bad-writing, but attempting to make the SW cool, and by extension their Primarch, in a setting where they are not the main characters, but simply one of a very, very large cast.

The events at Armageddon, specifically, is where the writers went wrong with the Space Wolves. The *idea* was cool, but the execution very poor and, in the end, all factions involved end up looking worse off.

So... less poor writing, more poor planning. The extent of that whole story was not well-thought.

Guilliman, at least as written by his Wardness, is a pure Marty Sue if I ever read one.

The Emperor's Gift was indeed terrible once the Space Wolves became the protagonists.

I still wonder if any of the traitor primarchs would have believed Horus could actually defeat the Emperor. I'd have thought Magnus or Lorgar would have recognised that to fight him in single combat was utterly futile.

I chose Magnus because he was arrogent enough to think that he could master and control the power of the warp without any side effects.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

At the moment he stands out as the only Primarch to have been wholly and utterly defeated by a mortal in single combat. His fight with Kor Phaeron was not even close.

Eugen Temba against Horus. Temba lost, but he wounded and nearly killed him.

And the Lion Vs Luther. Primarch vs Human, human wins and, after 10000 years, the primarch is still recovering.

Temba did nothing the passage describes that the blade lead his strokes. Horus was wounded by the weapon not Tembas skill. It was the power of the dark gods which wounded Horus not a mere mortal. In terms of actual damage in the fight it was very one sided throughout, Temba barely landed a hit on Horus who tore him apart after slaughtering many, many plaguebearers.


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Admittedly the Lion just sucks. Also Magnus very nearly lost to Ironhelm but that was just stupidly written to fit in with the out of place fluff.

The power of Chaos always works this way. The same could be said, to an extension, of Kor Phaeron and Luther.

However, you are right, especially in the one-sided part. I stand corrected and limit my "humans who defeated or nearly defeated primarchs" list to Luther and Kor Phaeron.

Temba and Luther were both given the backing of the Chaos Gods. Both were corrupted and mutated into something inhuman.

Kor Phaeron was not.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

Roubote due to jealous haters.

What if they dislike him for being a pussy?

At the moment he stands out as the only Primarch to have been wholly and utterly defeated by a mortal in single combat. His fight with Kor Phaeron was not even close.

Um... this was a long-standing Chaos sorcerer/cultist, who was enhanced to be equivalent to a Space Marine, who was then further enhanced by Chaos, and was using an ancient magical dagger to enhance his power further still, all during a time when the Legions were stripped of psychic defense.

Horus almost died to a old fat guy with a magic sword.

 Omegus wrote:

Um... this was a long-standing Chaos sorcerer/cultist, who was enhanced to be equivalent to a Space Marine, who was then further enhanced by Chaos, and was using an ancient magical dagger to enhance his power further still, all during a time when the Legions were stripped of psychic defense.

Horus almost died to a old fat guy with a magic sword.

At least that old fat guy was actually using his magic sword.

Ironically, the moment Kor Phaeron used the dagger was the moment Guilliman's life was spared.

While all you are saying is "technically" true, it requires a bit of context. Namely, that Kor Phaeron was in terms of psychic/arcane power so much weaker than Lorgar at this point that he had small penis syndrome over it. Compare to Leman Russ, who managed far better against Magnus.

Primarchs all have psychic defenses, as indicated in Betrayer (It notes that the minds of Primarchs are very difficult to affect normally, only to note that Angron's is particularly resistant due to the Nails).

I was admittedly mostly trolling you anyway, while Guilliman's showing in Know No Fear basically amounted to getting his ass spanked, in Betrayer he fares far better. Against Angron of all people. I just found your comment that only a "jealous hater" could dislike Guilliman funny.

Alpha/omega because im against twins!!!!!

gilamonster wrote:
Alpha/omega because im against twins!!!!!

Have my exalt.


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 Omegus wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

Roubote due to jealous haters.

What if they dislike him for being a pussy?

At the moment he stands out as the only Primarch to have been wholly and utterly defeated by a mortal in single combat. His fight with Kor Phaeron was not even close.

Um... this was a long-standing Chaos sorcerer/cultist, who was enhanced to be equivalent to a Space Marine, who was then further enhanced by Chaos, and was using an ancient magical dagger to enhance his power further still, all during a time when the Legions were stripped of psychic defense.

Horus almost died to a old fat guy with a magic sword.

as Void Dragon has said it would be lovely to have some context here. As already said it wasn't really Temba who wounded Horus it was the sword. The "magic sword" was actually the blade used to kill (or effectively kill) Roubote and Horus survived it and showed no ill affects long term (accept the whole chaos thing which you could probably claim was a hell of an ill effect...) and that "old fat guy" moved almost too fast for Horus to counter and primarchs can move at a speed where space marines can't even see them so...yeah. Also Horus rammed his blade into Tembas stomach and he laughed. He was immensely strong and yet Horus still brushed him aside.


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 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:

Um... this was a long-standing Chaos sorcerer/cultist, who was enhanced to be equivalent to a Space Marine, who was then further enhanced by Chaos, and was using an ancient magical dagger to enhance his power further still, all during a time when the Legions were stripped of psychic defense.

Horus almost died to a old fat guy with a magic sword.

At least that old fat guy was actually using his magic sword.

Ironically, the moment Kor Phaeron used the dagger was the moment Guilliman's life was spared.

While all you are saying is "technically" true, it requires a bit of context. Namely, that Kor Phaeron was in terms of psychic/arcane power so much weaker than Lorgar at this point that he had small penis syndrome over it. Compare to Leman Russ, who managed far better against Magnus.

Primarchs all have psychic defenses, as indicated in Betrayer (It notes that the minds of Primarchs are very difficult to affect normally, only to note that Angron's is particularly resistant due to the Nails).

I was admittedly mostly trolling you anyway, while Guilliman's showing in Know No Fear basically amounted to getting his ass spanked, in Betrayer he fares far better. Against Angron of all people. I just found your comment that only a "jealous hater" could dislike Guilliman funny.

he doesnt fare too well against Angron, beaten to the ground with his chest sliced open. Lorgar believes that he would be lucky if he ever walked again. He does give Lorgar a mauling though.

Given the circumstances, he did better than Russ, so give ol' Papa Smurf some credit.

I don't remember him really mauling Lorgar, wasn't the latter mostly busy maintaining the ritual to turn Angron into a full-fledged Daemon Prince?

And whatever happened to all those sweet words the daemons whispered to Lorgar about how he would defeat Guilliman if he were to face him in combat. They wouldn't have lied, would they?

 Void__Dragon wrote:

VensersRevenge wrote:
Lorgar. He is a whiner who doesn't get anything done

This is factually untrue.

Very true.

He is a whiner who got quite a bit done.


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 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Guilliman, at least as written by his Wardness, is a pure Marty Sue if I ever read one.

Ward never wrote about Guilliman, and you apparently have no idea what a Marty Stu is.

Double failure, lol.

1. Dorn - He is psychotic.
2. Angron - He's stupid, and psychotic. I don't care if it's not his fault.
3. Corax - Whiner.
4. Horus - So freaking weak. He was turned too damn easily. He had the least amount of reasoning. That piece of gak chose.

I don't know what to think about the Lion anymore. At one point I was convinced he was basically Curze with a knightly candy coating, but now I don't know what to think. How much Guilliman seems in awe of him really threw me for a loop.

BaconUprising wrote:
he doesnt fare too well against Angron, beaten to the ground with his chest sliced open. Lorgar believes that he would be lucky if he ever walked again. He does give Lorgar a mauling though.

He does manage to deal several crippling blows to Angron before he falls though. Lorgar notes he looked "little better" than Guilliman.


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 Omegus wrote:
Given the circumstances, he did better than Russ, so give ol' Papa Smurf some credit.

Well, Magnus is at the bare minimum two tiers above Kor Phaeron, being more powerful than Lorgar to the extent that Lorgar feels uncomfortable and strained being next to the psychic avatar he is projecting from the other side of the galaxy.

I don't really see how he did better than Russ "given the circumstances", Russ could at least break through Magnus' armour and break his arm, even if the final fight was luck-based and not skill-based.

I don't remember him really mauling Lorgar, wasn't the latter mostly busy maintaining the ritual to turn Angron into a full-fledged Daemon Prince?

He does managed to break a few of Lorgar's ribs (Lorgar meanwhile cracked open Guilliman's skull). In their sole martial encounter, they were about on par.

And whatever happened to all those sweet words the daemons whispered to Lorgar about how he would defeat Guilliman if he were to face him in combat. They wouldn't have lied, would they?

Well, Chaos does lie, lol. Lorgar might have ultimately bested Guilliman in single combat, it is hard to say. If he actually had full use of his sorcery at the time, he almost certainly would.


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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Very true.

He is a whiner who got quite a bit done.

Exactly.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
Guilliman, at least as written by his Wardness, is a pure Marty Sue if I ever read one.

Guilliman, as written by Dan Abnett, is none of the above.

Lorgar was a whiny bitch, but as of Betrayer he actually has become rather Machiavellian and holds his own against Guilliman so hes improved.

Guilliman is probably my least favorite. Boring and annoying. You know what he's going to say before he says it and his mary sueisms become exhausting.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Omegus wrote:
Given the circumstances, he did better than Russ, so give ol' Papa Smurf some credit.

Well, Magnus is at the bare minimum two tiers above Kor Phaeron, being more powerful than Lorgar to the extent that Lorgar feels uncomfortable and strained being next to the psychic avatar he is projecting from the other side of the galaxy.

I don't really see how he did better than Russ "given the circumstances", Russ could at least break through Magnus' armour and break his arm, even if the final fight was luck-based and not skill-based.

I believe Omegus was originally comparing Guillian’s fight with Angron, with the one between Russ and Angron. Russ got completely stomped by Angron, whereas Guilliman did not.


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 Harriticus wrote:
Guilliman is probably my least favorite. Boring and annoying. You know what he's going to say before he says it and his mary sueisms become exhausting.

Sigh... I thought we were over this already.

 Redcruisair wrote:
I believe Omegus was originally comparing Guillian’s fight with Angron, with the one between Russ and Angron. Russ got completely stomped by Angron, whereas Guilliman did not.

Ah, you may be right.

To be fair to Russ, we only see two parts of the fight, the beginning and the end, and the end of the fight was narrated by Angron himself, a biased observer. Leman Russ also did at some point manage to disarm Angron.

Besides, the scene was dumb as all hell, so feth it.

Also, it is my observation that posts proclaiming disfavor towards Roboute Guilliman would be far more acceptable if the word "Mary Sue" wasn't thrown around like a dwarf whore. It is almost always used by those without any real concept of what the word means.

Personally I find Guilliman to indeed be kind of bland and uninteresting, but that isn't because Rowboat is a Mary Sue.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

 Redcruisair wrote:
I believe Omegus was originally comparing Guillian’s fight with Angron, with the one between Russ and Angron. Russ got completely stomped by Angron, whereas Guilliman did not.

Ah, you may be right.

To be fair to Russ, we only see two parts of the fight, the beginning and the end, and the end of the fight was narrated by Angron himself, a biased observer. Leman Russ also did at some point manage to disarm Angron.

Besides, the scene was dumb as all hell, so feth it.

Agreed.

You all expect the heresy series to be homers illiad, it's pulp sci fi, it's gonna blow sometimes haha

I don't expect it to always be good, but that does not mean I will not point out when it sucks.

I voted for Lorgar.
Honestly, he is a weak willed and weak minded individual who basically pissed all over his fathers wishes of NOT BEING WORSHIPPED, got his a** handed to him but Roboute, and then gets manipulated by his foster father and a weird, unknown Erebus who just turns up evil for no apparent reason or detailed back story...
I'm stilling waiting for that one.

I was talking about the two Primarchs fighting Angron, but if we're talking Primarchs vs psykers/sorcery Russ is at least two tiers above Gully. Gully can't make Epistolary-level psykers' heads pop like grapes by going arooooo!

What about the total lack of anything on the deathguard so far?

 Formosa wrote:
What about the total lack of anything on the deathguard so far?

Mortarian and his legion, as far as I know, have gotten very little coverage in the series compared to other Primarchs, since the heresy he's done nothing but get beaten by a basic grey knight, but during the heresy, I don't think he got much done either

Vulgar wrote:
1. Dorn - He is psychotic.
2. Angron - He's stupid, and psychotic. I don't care if it's not his fault.
3. Corax - Whiner.
4. Horus - So freaking weak. He was turned too damn easily. He had the least amount of reasoning. That piece of gak chose.

I don't know what to think about the Lion anymore. At one point I was convinced he was basically Curze with a knightly candy coating, but now I don't know what to think. How much Guilliman seems in awe of him really threw me for a loop.

Not even close to being true.

Leman Russ the Brute, The Hypocrite, and all around nasty Allfather of an equally nasty legion.

Russ for beign beign a hypocrite and yust comming over as a dumb giant douche. Angron of all people verbaly beat him to the ground.

Horus for beign so weak willed and gullible.

Suprised by the hate for lorgar, He acomplished more thenn anny other, playing the galaxy setting up the heresy.
He was also about even with Gully while simultanius creating the ruin storm and fighting a phycic battle.

Amoras wrote:
Suprised by the hate for lorgar, He acomplished more thenn anny other, playing the galaxy setting up the heresy.

Wait, so you criticize Horus for being weak-willed, but are surprised for the hate of the weakest willed primarch of them all?

I mean, I guess you can say Lorgar "accomplished" something. It took the assistance of the Chaos gods, who chose him because he was emotionally, mentally, and spiritually weak, and thus made him easy pickings. Ultimately, all Lorgar did was get tricked by Chaos, then attempt to unravel all the accomplishments of mankind because he felt like Daddy didn't love him enough.

Lorgar is easily the most contemptible of the primarchs. At least Angron and Curze had excuses for why they were sociopaths. Lorgar was just an emo whiner. And then, after the Heresy was over, he locked himself in a tower writing a book nobody will ever read.

Lorgar was the kid who flipped the table over when he decided he didn't like the game anymore. Then decided he was going to try to burn the board and all of the pieces so nobody else could play anymore either.

That wasn't his motivation. Lorgar's long-standing disagreement with the Emperor was over whether humanity needed faith to survive in a hostile universe, whether they need to look outside themselves to find meaning and purpose. The fact that the form of Chaos is horrifying to mortals is due to their limited perspective. If we truly embrace and serve the Gods as they please, we will be rewarded with what the Emperor wanted all along, humanity as the predominant power in the universe. A power in service to a greater power still. Eldar had their chance at transcendence, but ran from it and have thus been doomed to extinction. Humanity will suffer the same fate if we repeat their mistakes.

And yes, Chaos demands tremendous sacrifice in blood and suffering, so it's understandable why people are resistant, but this is for the good of all humanity. If a bloody crusade is what it takes, so be it. Is it really so different from the Emperor purging countless civilizations in the pursuit of his own vision of unity? At least the Ruinous Powers are true gods with a true message. Once we embrace Chaos, we will be able to see beyond the horrific visage to the true beauty beneath (just look how happy those Nurgle blokes are) and we will ascend forever in glorious symbiosis.

But yes, all that "chosen glory boy of Chaos" stuff is just lip service. He was their puppet and mouthpiece, and was chosen because he was easy to manipulate (and that manipulation began while he was traveling in his capsule and continued under his cultist mentor's tutelage). Even his new-found power was sparked by the Gods funneling warp secrets directly into his head. This is his duty to this day, writing dowm whatever crazy ritual or monstrous atrocity the Gods come up with, and filtering it down to his Legion to enact.

I never liked the Boys in Blue.
Ultramarine fluff is boring as all.
Even their Successor Chapters are ugly. Its always a Blue and White/Black/Red/Green/Yellow/Gold/Orange/Bluer Blue Criss-Crossed with Gold trim.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

Lorgar is easily the most contemptible of the primarchs. At least Lorgar and Curze had excuses for why they were sociopaths. Lorgar was just an emo whiner. And then, after the Heresy was over, he locked himself in a tower writing a book nobody will ever read.

His two previous books, "Lectitio Divinatatus" and the "Book of Lorgar" (a collection of his epistles), are total best-sellers... And this one is taking 10000 years. Which I think it´s the reason Chaos followers are so pissed off. He is even worse than George R R Martin.

Also I think you meant "Angron and Curze had excuses", or perhaps "Mortarion and Curze".

Roboute Gulliman for the simple reason that he is the SMURF LORD OF ALL THINGS SMURFY AND CHEESEY AND BLUE AND SMURFY

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Ferrus Manus. If we go by Forgeworld fluff the guy is borderline psycho and an unashamed fascist, randomly murdering civilians on compliant worlds

I think they are all borderline psykos with daddy issues


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 wildboar wrote:

 tomball0706 wrote:
I'm quite surprised to see that Leman Russ is actually winning... I knew quite a few people disliked him, but not that he was the most disliked!

Not speaking for everyone on here, I was about to click Leman Russ but realised it's not actually Russ I dislike. He's a bit of a dick in his approach to matters at times but it's mainly the Russ fanboys I cannot stand. Russ this Russ that, he is tarnished by my thoughts of them.

After that moment of clarity I voted for Lorgar, mainly because I believe he is for want of a better word, a tw*t.

Whilst that accusation is true for a number of the Primarchs for various reasons, Lorgars immense daddy doesn't love me issues get right on my tits.

no primarch boasted about their abilities as much as Russ and no fanboy boasts about their primarch like Russ fanboys.

I see a correlation and reason for the hatred

I dislike Angron the most. He's the most junkyard dog of all the Primarchs, and seems to have the least say in what he does. I saw him more as a pawn then any real leader in the Heresy. Horus pointed and he went after it.

Sure, he may have acted as if he didn't care, but I just don't think he lived up to the level of admiration that most Primarchs got from their legions.

 tomball0706 wrote:
I'm quite surprised to see that Leman Russ is actually winning... I knew quite a few people disliked him, but not that he was the most disliked!

It's a Dakka tradition.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I picked Corax ... not because I don't like; just because I like him the least. He's a bit dull in the current mix.

I picked Corax because he's so incredibly boring.

All the primarchs are broken children. They're all delusional hypocrites. The Emperor failed to a degree that is beyond hilarious when it came to preparing them for their roles at the head of the legions. I could write a book about all the things wrong with each of the 18, except that Black Library did it for me.

S'all part of the plan, my friend.

 Matt1785 wrote:
I dislike Angron the most. He's the most junkyard dog of all the Primarchs, and seems to have the least say in what he does. I saw him more as a pawn then any real leader in the Heresy. Horus pointed and he went after it.

Sure, he may have acted as if he didn't care, but I just don't think he lived up to the level of admiration that most Primarchs got from their legions.

Lol, your comment is very ironic considering the events of Betrayer. They cover those exact topics.

Also, everyone tagging Gully or Corax or whoever else as most boring has to ask themselves, what about the Khan? At least those boring characters are still characters. Khan has like 2 lines in the entire decades long history of 40K.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
I picked Corax because he's so incredibly boring.

All the primarchs are broken children. They're all delusional hypocrites. The Emperor failed to a degree that is beyond hilarious when it came to preparing them for their roles at the head of the legions. I could write a book about all the things wrong with each of the 18, except that Black Library did it for me.

Just to give one easy and one random example, how were Guilliman and Vulkan "delusional hypocrites"? How were they unprepared for their role? What, one was too capable and the other too immortal?

I voted for the smurf for the simple fact that he's the guy who's in charge of the Smurfs...

But, I also voted for him because he is the Sheldon Cooper of the Primarchs.


He had the largest legion at the outset of the heresy, this was due to his "outstanding organizational skills"... Was it really? Or, was it because he was an OCD prick who browbeat, and demanded that EVERYONE do exactly as he wished? No one really wanted to adopt the Codex Astartes, or break up the Legions, except for him, and he eventually wore them down and got his way.

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 derek wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Ferrus Manus strikes me as the kind of guy that hides his many shortcomings under the guise of brutality and extremism.

just like Angron but we all love him...

Not true, least favorite Primarch of mine, followed by Ferrus Manus, who was much cooler before the HH books made him into a giant bag of dicks.

I'll take Angron's "Hurr durr break things!!!" attitude over Ferrus' "Earn the air you breathe, puny human" anytime.

But agreed, Angron is a mess. The Emperor should have given him the mercy shot the moment he found him, but he thought perhaps it would be fun if one of his legions of invaluable gene-enhanced warriors was led by a functional idiot with the temper of a fighting bull. Well, at least he's got that freaky implant doing bad, bad things to his brains as an excuse, while Ferrus derives his douchebaggery from perhaps too many hours of surfing neonazi websites while listening to Kraftwerk's "The man-machine" on repeat. Like El'Jonson, Fulgrim, Perturabo and many other illustrious d-bags of the far future, he has no alibi.

It wasn't that. It simply was the GEOM being a terrible father and fairly angered a good chunk of his children by winning their fights for them. Angron and Mortarian come especially to mind. They may have ended up stalwart advocates of the GEOM and some of his most loyal sons had he not spirited them away before they could finish their fight, or even win it for them. The GEOM should have bolstered Angron's forces to overthrow his oppressors and let him be, and he should have given Mortarian control of the Dusk Raiders to kill the necromancer lord.

The only one that was utterly insane he should have dealt with was Konrad. Curze should have received a bloody century of conseuling before the GEOM gave his psychopath of a son that suffered from having a 'split' personality control of a whole damn Legion of Astartes. Because that could never go wrong!

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 derek wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Ferrus Manus strikes me as the kind of guy that hides his many shortcomings under the guise of brutality and extremism.

just like Angron but we all love him...

Not true, least favorite Primarch of mine, followed by Ferrus Manus, who was much cooler before the HH books made him into a giant bag of dicks.

I'll take Angron's "Hurr durr break things!!!" attitude over Ferrus' "Earn the air you breathe, puny human" anytime.

But agreed, Angron is a mess. The Emperor should have given him the mercy shot the moment he found him, but he thought perhaps it would be fun if one of his legions of invaluable gene-enhanced warriors was led by a functional idiot with the temper of a fighting bull. Well, at least he's got that freaky implant doing bad, bad things to his brains as an excuse, while Ferrus derives his douchebaggery from perhaps too many hours of surfing neonazi websites while listening to Kraftwerk's "The man-machine" on repeat. Like El'Jonson, Fulgrim, Perturabo and many other illustrious d-bags of the far future, he has no alibi.

It wasn't that. It simply was the GEOM being a terrible father and fairly angered a good chunk of his children by winning their fights for them. Angron and Mortarian come especially to mind. They may have ended up stalwart advocates of the GEOM and some of his most loyal sons had he not spirited them away before they could finish their fight, or even win it for them. The GEOM should have bolstered Angron's forces to overthrow his oppressors and let him be, and he should have given Mortarian control of the Dusk Raiders to kill the necromancer lord.

The only one that was utterly insane he should have dealt with was Konrad. Curze should have received a bloody century of conseuling before the GEOM gave his psychopath of a son that suffered from having a 'split' personality control of a whole damn Legion of Astartes. Because that could never go wrong!

If you think Curze was bad (iirc, he got some training off've Fulgrim?) what about Angron?
Ol Empy kidnaps him from his planet, prevents his honourable death, lets all his army get killed, does nothing to punish the people who inflicted the nails on him - THEN PUTS HIM STRAIGHT IN CHARGE OF A LEGION.
Cause thats never gonna go wrong...
It took Angron how long to stop killing his own captains?

I like this poll - its another chance to vote Russ for people that missed the last 20 bazillion polls

 PredaKhaine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 derek wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Ferrus Manus strikes me as the kind of guy that hides his many shortcomings under the guise of brutality and extremism.

just like Angron but we all love him...

Not true, least favorite Primarch of mine, followed by Ferrus Manus, who was much cooler before the HH books made him into a giant bag of dicks.

I'll take Angron's "Hurr durr break things!!!" attitude over Ferrus' "Earn the air you breathe, puny human" anytime.

But agreed, Angron is a mess. The Emperor should have given him the mercy shot the moment he found him, but he thought perhaps it would be fun if one of his legions of invaluable gene-enhanced warriors was led by a functional idiot with the temper of a fighting bull. Well, at least he's got that freaky implant doing bad, bad things to his brains as an excuse, while Ferrus derives his douchebaggery from perhaps too many hours of surfing neonazi websites while listening to Kraftwerk's "The man-machine" on repeat. Like El'Jonson, Fulgrim, Perturabo and many other illustrious d-bags of the far future, he has no alibi.

It wasn't that. It simply was the GEOM being a terrible father and fairly angered a good chunk of his children by winning their fights for them. Angron and Mortarian come especially to mind. They may have ended up stalwart advocates of the GEOM and some of his most loyal sons had he not spirited them away before they could finish their fight, or even win it for them. The GEOM should have bolstered Angron's forces to overthrow his oppressors and let him be, and he should have given Mortarian control of the Dusk Raiders to kill the necromancer lord.

The only one that was utterly insane he should have dealt with was Konrad. Curze should have received a bloody century of conseuling before the GEOM gave his psychopath of a son that suffered from having a 'split' personality control of a whole damn Legion of Astartes. Because that could never go wrong!

If you think Curze was bad (iirc, he got some training off've Fulgrim?) what about Angron?
Ol Empy kidnaps him from his planet, prevents his honourable death, lets all his army get killed, does nothing to punish the people who inflicted the nails on him - THEN PUTS HIM STRAIGHT IN CHARGE OF A LEGION.
Cause thats never gonna go wrong...
It took Angron how long to stop killing his own captains?

I like this poll - its another chance to vote Russ for people that missed the last 20 bazillion polls

At least Angron liked his Legion and sons, and was 'stable' in that he was predictable. Curze was swinging between crazy and even moar crazy (although yet at the same time remaining the sanest man in the galaxy) and ended hating his Legion's guts. Meanwhile, all the GEOM could have done was given Angron his legion and let him finish the battle, and not forcibly extract him to do the job for him. The GEOM clearly should have read some 'Parenting 101' books.

The only real problem Angron had managing his legion was 'controlling' his librarians.

Yeah - Emps parenting skills<Cardboard.

lol @ 'controlling'

 Omegus wrote:

Also, everyone tagging Gully or Corax or whoever else as most boring has to ask themselves, what about the Khan? At least those boring characters are still characters. Khan has like 2 lines in the entire decades long history of 40K.

I think that's why I like Khan better than Corax.

Ferrus Manus. Why, you ask? It's a very simple and superficial reason. But seriously. His name is 'Iron Iron' in Latin. It's like the ultimate hominid Moon Moon.

da001 wrote:Also I think you meant "Angron and Curze had excuses",

You are correct sir. D'oh.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 PredaKhaine wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:

 derek wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:

 Agent_Tremolo wrote:
Ferrus Manus strikes me as the kind of guy that hides his many shortcomings under the guise of brutality and extremism.

just like Angron but we all love him...

Not true, least favorite Primarch of mine, followed by Ferrus Manus, who was much cooler before the HH books made him into a giant bag of dicks.

I'll take Angron's "Hurr durr break things!!!" attitude over Ferrus' "Earn the air you breathe, puny human" anytime.

But agreed, Angron is a mess. The Emperor should have given him the mercy shot the moment he found him, but he thought perhaps it would be fun if one of his legions of invaluable gene-enhanced warriors was led by a functional idiot with the temper of a fighting bull. Well, at least he's got that freaky implant doing bad, bad things to his brains as an excuse, while Ferrus derives his douchebaggery from perhaps too many hours of surfing neonazi websites while listening to Kraftwerk's "The man-machine" on repeat. Like El'Jonson, Fulgrim, Perturabo and many other illustrious d-bags of the far future, he has no alibi.

It wasn't that. It simply was the GEOM being a terrible father and fairly angered a good chunk of his children by winning their fights for them. Angron and Mortarian come especially to mind. They may have ended up stalwart advocates of the GEOM and some of his most loyal sons had he not spirited them away before they could finish their fight, or even win it for them. The GEOM should have bolstered Angron's forces to overthrow his oppressors and let him be, and he should have given Mortarian control of the Dusk Raiders to kill the necromancer lord.

The only one that was utterly insane he should have dealt with was Konrad. Curze should have received a bloody century of conseuling before the GEOM gave his psychopath of a son that suffered from having a 'split' personality control of a whole damn Legion of Astartes. Because that could never go wrong!

If you think Curze was bad (iirc, he got some training off've Fulgrim?) what about Angron?
Ol Empy kidnaps him from his planet, prevents his honourable death, lets all his army get killed, does nothing to punish the people who inflicted the nails on him - THEN PUTS HIM STRAIGHT IN CHARGE OF A LEGION.
Cause thats never gonna go wrong...
It took Angron how long to stop killing his own captains?

I like this poll - its another chance to vote Russ for people that missed the last 20 bazillion polls

At least Angron liked his Legion and sons, and was 'stable' in that he was predictable. Curze was swinging between crazy and even moar crazy (although yet at the same time remaining the sanest man in the galaxy) and ended hating his Legion's guts. Meanwhile, all the GEOM could have done was given Angron his legion and let him finish the battle, and not forcibly extract him to do the job for him. The GEOM clearly should have read some 'Parenting 101' books.

The only real problem Angron had managing his legion was 'controlling' his librarians.

Angron states a lot that the reason why he continuously throws himself recklessly into the face of the enemy is not just cause of the nails and what they did to him, but is because he simply did not care for his own life, he says that he died on his home world with his people, that now he is nothing more than an empty shell who just wants to see his long dead brothers and sisters again. GEOM could of at least let him fight a bit with his people or hell, even teleported himself down there. I'm pretty sure seeing the Emperor destroy his enemies by the dozen and fight back to back next to him would of defintely 100% won the begruding resepct of Angron. But hey, if there is one thing that the HH tells us, is that good ole Empy cannot parent for gak.

Concerning his Librarian problems, it was more that they gave everyone a major headache and a nosebleed, Angron could hold a titans foot above his head for ages but couldn't handle a little nosebleed which frankly, I find hilarious

And I almost feel bad for the wolfingwolf lord, he's not really a bad Primarch, just his legion of fanboys are a major pain in the behind and never shut up. But then I have a big crush on Magnus so ergo, the smelly dog gets hate from me


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 TheLinguist wrote:
Ferrus Manus. Why, you ask? It's a very simple and superficial reason. But seriously. His name is 'Iron Iron' in Latin. It's like the ultimate hominid Moon Moon.

I can imagine this being Ferrus and the guy next to him Fulgrim while they were still BFFS

I am unsubbing because this has turned into a fan boy arguement


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I am unsubbing because this has turned into a fan boy arguement

When was it ever going to be anything but?


Oh, you're new here. Nevermind.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
When was it ever going to be anything but?


Oh, you're new here. Nevermind.

I'm almost sorry, I just couldn't resist

Fulgrim's fourth. This pleases him.

Is there an option for 'all of the above' or 'most of the above'?

I enjoyed Horus prior to his fall to Chaos and like Roboute, but most of the rest of the Primarchs are numptys. Corax is okay, until he goes all emo, and Vulkan at least wants to defend humanity, but at the end of the day most of them are whinny cry babies looking for self aggrandizement.

Who votes Alpharius/Omegon? Come on what do they do that's annoying ?

BaconUprising wrote:
Who votes Alpharius/Omegon? Come on what do they do that's annoying ?

Nothing's more annoying then trying to mail a letter of complaint to a non-existent address.

How come Sanguinius is tied for the 4th most hated primarch ?
i voted for Russ.. for pretty much every reason that other people have said for hating him

BaconUprising wrote:
Who votes Alpharius/Omegon? Come on what do they do that's annoying ?

I think a fair amount of people think the whole Alpharius/Omegon twin primarch nonsense is pretty silly. Others may just think the Alpha Legion is the most poorly written Legion in the Heresy Series, and they would be correct.

Problem is that I don't know what we're supposed to base this on.

Bottom line is that it comes down to a tie, depending.

If we are supposed to take their signature works (fluff works in which they are the prime players) then Fulgrim is hands down my pick for daffiest, least enjoyable character. If we're meant to take all of the Black Library/40k materials into account, understanding that one or two of the novels might be the work not of a flawed character but a flawed author, then I would have to say that Magnus is the worst, his entire backstory being predicated on a rather goofy premise. Previously, I would have said that Lorgar's premise was even goofier than Magnus's, but I'm suspending that judgment until I get a chance to read ADB's The First Heretic.

The Lion, he was such a disappointment in the HH books, always liked the DA but so far the books have kinna ruined him. Unremembered empire brought him back slightly but only ever so.

Am surprised about the Russ hate!

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Others may just think the Alpha Legion is the most poorly written Legion in the Heresy Series, and they would be correct.

This is probably it.

A lot of people love Legion, but uh, well, yeah and gak.


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 Jimsolo wrote:
Problem is that I don't know what we're supposed to base this on.

Bottom line is that it comes down to a tie, depending.

If we are supposed to take their signature works (fluff works in which they are the prime players) then Fulgrim is hands down my pick for daffiest, least enjoyable character. If we're meant to take all of the Black Library/40k materials into account, understanding that one or two of the novels might be the work not of a flawed character but a flawed author, then I would have to say that Magnus is the worst, his entire backstory being predicated on a rather goofy premise. Previously, I would have said that Lorgar's premise was even goofier than Magnus's, but I'm suspending that judgment until I get a chance to read ADB's The First Heretic.

While I have no doubts at all that I will disagree with your assessment (I usually do) I have to ask, what do you dislike about Magnus' backstory's premise?


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Knockagh wrote:
The Lion, he was such a disappointment in the HH books, always liked the DA but so far the books have kinna ruined him. Unremembered empire brought him back slightly but only ever so.

Am surprised about the Russ hate!

The Lion was one of the few good things about the first two DA books.

People dislike Russ because he's a busy-body.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
think a fair amount of people think the whole Alpharius/Omegon twin primarch nonsense is pretty silly. Others may just think the Alpha Legion is the most poorly written Legion in the Heresy Series, and they would be correct.

I agree with the fact that their fluff is written poorly, I absolutely love the way those two go into battle and all the sneaky tactics they do, it's brilliant to see how they as Primarchs don't just assault a planet all guns blazing and destroy everything in sight saying "daddy told me to" or "I've got a big axe let's hack 'n' slash people". They infiltrate and gain knowledge about the planet and it's populace before hand. Wasn't there some fluff going around to saying how they once captured a planet without even stepping foot or sending a single astartes down, they just used their usual sneaky tactics and within a month the planet was theirs haha. It's a welcome change.

Plus Horus and Roboute openly criticized them for their tactics, ones long dead and the other is sitting in a stasis with his neck sliced open high on the poison that covered said neck opening blade, so whose a smarter primarch now aye

Guilliman. Despite his Legion/Chapter's noted inability to give up on a situation and instead find a way to win...he gave up when the Empire needed him the most. When the cards are down, he came with a 2-7 offsuit and was bluffing his way through.

I'd have to go with Khan, I'm not feeling the whole mongol look and there just isn't enough information about him.

 tomball0706 wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
think a fair amount of people think the whole Alpharius/Omegon twin primarch nonsense is pretty silly. Others may just think the Alpha Legion is the most poorly written Legion in the Heresy Series, and they would be correct.

I agree with the fact that their fluff is written poorly, I absolutely love the way those two go into battle and all the sneaky tactics they do, it's brilliant to see how they as Primarchs don't just assault a planet all guns blazing and destroy everything in sight saying "daddy told me to" or "I've got a big axe let's hack 'n' slash people". They infiltrate and gain knowledge about the planet and it's populace before hand. Wasn't there some fluff going around to saying how they once captured a planet without even stepping foot or sending a single astartes down, they just used their usual sneaky tactics and within a month the planet was theirs haha. It's a welcome change.

The thing was, and I played Alpha Legion in the long long ago of 2nd Edition, the Alpha Legion didn't start fighting like that until after the Heresy, and it was because they had to. Suddenly, they were renegades; hunted traitors. Going to ground and fighting a guerrilla war was how they adapted to keep from being destroyed by the Imperium. The original fluff for the Alpha Legion had them being arrogant bastards who constantly looked for new ways to defeat their enemies. They weren't all snaky bastards in the original fluff. They just were constantly challenging themselves. Part of the reason they turned traitor was Alpharius's close relationship with Horus, and then they enjoyed the challenge of facing other Space Marines as something they'd never been able to do before. But they weren't sneaky. They were still a Space Marine Legion, and overwhelming force was how Space Marine Legions fought. They just were willing to try unorthodox stuff. If they'd always been goofing around and doing things the slow way, surely they'd have been censured by the Emperor like Lorgar was for being too slow.

Plus Horus and Roboute openly criticized them for their tactics, ones long dead and the other is sitting in a stasis with his neck sliced open high on the poison that covered said neck opening blade, so whose a smarter primarch now aye

Yeah, well, when your default response is to hide in a hole, you're going to last longer than the guys who try to go toe to toe with an immortal demi-god, or the chosen Daemon Primarch of Slaanesh.

I don't know if I remember Horus criticizing Alpharius, and all Guilliman said was that the way the Alpha Legion sometimes fought was inefficient and wasteful. And technically, Guilliman was right. The duty of the Legions was to conquer the galaxy as quickly and efficiently as possible, not to make a game of it.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

I don't know if I remember Horus criticizing Alpharius, and all Guilliman said was that the way the Alpha Legion sometimes fought was inefficient and wasteful. And technically, Guilliman was right. The duty of the Legions was to conquer the galaxy as quickly and efficiently as possible, not to make a game of it.

In the Game of Golden Thrones, you win and you die

I'm not liking lorgor because he seems like too much of a pansy. While the others are decisive and straightforward, he is underhanded (not in the sneaky way apharious is but in the cowardly wishy washy way), and just too unsure of himself. Even after he turns to chaos, he remains an underhanded pansy that is wishy washy. You would think he woulda grown some then but even then he remained the same and never grew out of it.

He eventually develops out of that.

 Wyzilla wrote:
The GEOM should have bolstered Angron's forces to overthrow his oppressors and let him be, and he should have given Mortarian control of the Dusk Raiders to kill the necromancer lord.

That makes no damn sense. Giving him a Legion is the same thing as showing up himself; either way Mortarion doesn't get to do the job himself. The Emperor probably could have loaned the guy a helmet to protect against all that poison gas.


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 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

The thing was, and I played Alpha Legion in the long long ago of 2nd Edition, the Alpha Legion didn't start fighting like that until after the Heresy, and it was because they had to. Suddenly, they were renegades; hunted traitors. Going to ground and fighting a guerrilla war was how they adapted to keep from being destroyed by the Imperium. The original fluff for the Alpha Legion had them being arrogant bastards who constantly looked for new ways to defeat their enemies. They weren't all snaky bastards in the original fluff. They just were constantly challenging themselves. Part of the reason they turned traitor was Alpharius's close relationship with Horus, and then they enjoyed the challenge of facing other Space Marines as something they'd never been able to do before. But they weren't sneaky. They were still a Space Marine Legion, and overwhelming force was how Space Marine Legions fought. They just were willing to try unorthodox stuff. If they'd always been goofing around and doing things the slow way, surely they'd have been censured by the Emperor like Lorgar was for being too slow.

I liked the old fluff much better, they were basically 30K Ultramarines that decided to put all their theoreticals to practical use just to see if they could. The IA says Alpharius' initial campaigns, with their versatile and often unorthodox tactics, were extremely successful. Guilliman, who was portrayed as far more a starch-ass in the IA articles more akin to how Ultramarines are in 40K (they've really humbled him up in HH) complained that their tactics weren't falling with tradition and what was "proper" warfare as defined by his own experience. He basically pointed at all his laurels and victory banners, and said Alpharius would never be able to catch up so he should just fall in line and listen to his elders. Instead, Alpharius told him to stuff it and pushed his Legion to be the absolute best they could be. By the time the Heresy was looming, he had built them into a force that no alien threat could stand against. Space Marines were the next logical opponents, they just needed a reason. So later, when instead of seizing some world's capital immediately, he spent a couple of weeks letting them build up their defenses and then set off a series of sabotages to herd all of the defenders into a killing field. Guilliman critiqued his excessive expenditure of boltshells, Horus thought it was pretty neat. When the battle-lines were drawn, the Hydra's choice was easy.

This current trend of plan within a plan within a counter plan just as planned your mom is Alpharius is getting really silly. And apparently, after 10,000 years of having the capability to create super-duper Marines in 6 months, Alpha Legion has done nothing except annoy the Imperium with the occasional cult here and there.


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 tomball0706 wrote:
Concerning his Librarian problems, it was more that they gave everyone a major headache and a nosebleed, Angron could hold a titans foot above his head for ages but couldn't handle a little nosebleed which frankly, I find hilarious

It was a Scout Titan and he almost died doing it, right after Lorgar almost died tanking two plasma blaster shots with his face.

The issue with the Alpha Legion (not my issue with them, clearly) is that they are poorly developed. But, seeing as they're the most secretive legion ever (besides II and XI) doesn't it make sense that no one would know anything? And because they're so hard to write as the brilliant masters of subterfuge and sabotage prior lore has made them out to be, very few short stories or novels are dedicated to them. Post HH I can think of only two short stories, and they're mentioned as opponents in two novels. So is it any wonder that they don't stack up compared to the other 1st foundings?

 Omegus wrote:


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 tomball0706 wrote:
Concerning his Librarian problems, it was more that they gave everyone a major headache and a nosebleed, Angron could hold a titans foot above his head for ages but couldn't handle a little nosebleed which frankly, I find hilarious

It was a Scout Titan and he almost died doing it, right after Lorgar almost died tanking two plasma blaster shots with his face.

Oh yeah he was incredibly close to being squished, but he still held his ground and didn't let the titans foot squish him and Lorgar and seemed "relatively" calm and relaxed by Angrons usual standard while speaking to Lorgar who was suffering from a melting face. But a nose bleed? awwh hell no, hit's the fan then

Well, all that was during the stress of combat. The nosebleeds and headaches and buzzing in his nails was during the downtime when he was trying to relax and not murderrapekill people. Imagine a dentist giving you a root canal when you're trying to sleep. It would make me cranky too.

 Void__Dragon wrote:

VensersRevenge wrote:
Lorgar. He is a whiner who doesn't get anything done

This is factually untrue.

To be fair, I have yet to read Betrayer so it's possible he get's better. But from what I have read Lorgar seems to manipulated into doing everything my Erebus and Kor Phaeron

Guilliman for me, since he wanted everyone else to obey his codex while violating the spirit of his rules whenever it suited him (Chapters can only control one world. What's that? Oh, the Ultramarines do only control one world, it just happens to have dominion over eight other planets as well), and his idea of debating with someone who disagreed with his combat tactics was pointing out that he had more victories, due to a two hundred year head start.

Horus. Duh. If it weren't for this guy, perhaps 40k's history would've been much more pleasant and idealistic rather than grimdark and "humanity-is-screwed-in-the-long-run"....

A LACK OF GRIMDARK IS HERESY! *BLAM*

VensersRevenge wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:

VensersRevenge wrote:
Lorgar. He is a whiner who doesn't get anything done

This is factually untrue.

To be fair, I have yet to read Betrayer so it's possible he get's better. But from what I have read Lorgar seems to manipulated into doing everything my Erebus and Kor Phaeron

His own "sons" lead him about by his private parts (figuratively) because he is too wishy washy and unsure of himself to even think for himself. The Emperor told him what to do before and he was so glad to be told what to do he glorified the Emperor. As soon as that is gone, he acts like a lover scorned and lets his new "girlfriend/masters" (his underlings who understood his weakness and decided to use him like an ignorant puppet) lead him about and tell him what to do. Not a single one of the other primarchs had any respect for him and I don't blame them a bit.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
Who votes Alpharius/Omegon? Come on what do they do that's annoying ?

I think a fair amount of people think the whole Alpharius/Omegon twin primarch nonsense is pretty silly. Others may just think the Alpha Legion is the most poorly written Legion in the Heresy Series, and they would be correct.

An enigmatic mysterious and rather unique legion is the worst in a series awash with chest-beating alpha-males who can turn any statement into a slight worthy of capital punishment and basically follow the tried-and-true method of 'lets just drop pod onto the planet and smash their faces in' almost exclusively.

Yeah, I disagree. I see your Alpha Legion, and raise you Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Word Bearers. etc. I remember AL in 2e, where their fluff was basically 'like the other Legions, but kinda green, not salamanders green but still green'

MarsNZ wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

BaconUprising wrote:
Who votes Alpharius/Omegon? Come on what do they do that's annoying ?

I think a fair amount of people think the whole Alpharius/Omegon twin primarch nonsense is pretty silly. Others may just think the Alpha Legion is the most poorly written Legion in the Heresy Series, and they would be correct.

An enigmatic mysterious and rather unique legion is the worst in a series awash with chest-beating alpha-males who can turn any statement into a slight worthy of capital punishment and basically follow the tried-and-true method of 'lets just drop pod onto the planet and smash their faces in' almost exclusively.

Yeah, I disagree. I see your Alpha Legion, and raise you Space Wolves, Dark Angels, Word Bearers. etc. I remember AL in 2e, where their fluff was basically 'like the other Legions, but kinda green, not salamanders green but still green'

You don't seem to remember their 2E fluff very well. Because I played AL in 2nd Edition, and you're about as right as a NASCAR race.

Funny because I have the (original, softcover) 2e Chaos Codex sitting next to me. If anything the EC have inherited the old AL fluff of 'being da bessss'.

Alpharius seems to be the most mock worthy primarch. His delusion about how the Emperor would want him to side with the cabal and somehow destroying mankind for the sake of the elder and fish people was a good idea. Then again it would have been an elaborate ruse to use the cabal to i''ll give him the benefit of the doubt. Dorn and Guilliman, so many Legions joined Horus just out of hatred of those guys. But really its Dorn, a pompous, rage full hypocrite. Then again Papa smurf is a pompous cowardly hypocrite. Pretty tuff when he has a Legion, Custodes and the Emperor backing him up against Lorgar, yet he runs away from Angron and them starts his own little mini empire refuses to send help to Terra sitting out the Heresy. Papa smurf wins against down but just barely. Oh and how Smurf and Fistius Maximus are whiney humanitarians but when their dreams and hopes are destroyed their brutality matches and even eclipses that of Horus. The Night Haunters vindication wasn't the assassin, its was when Dorn and Guill decided to virus bomb every world that sided with Horus.

I don't get the hate directed at the Dark Angels, Johnson had pretty good rational for fighting where he did, and considering he nearly destroyed a Legion that hides in the shadow I don't think anyone can say he didn't do his part.

EVIL INC wrote:

His own "sons" lead him about by his private parts (figuratively) because he is too wishy washy and unsure of himself to even think for himself. The Emperor told him what to do before and he was so glad to be told what to do he glorified the Emperor. As soon as that is gone, he acts like a lover scorned and lets his new "girlfriend/masters" (his underlings who understood his weakness and decided to use him like an ignorant puppet) lead him about and tell him what to do. Not a single one of the other primarchs had any respect for him and I don't blame them a bit.

Magnus counted him among his closest friends and Horus considered him wise.

They most certainly respect him after he curb-stomped Fulgrim, bossed around Horus, and turned Angron into a Daemon Prince.

To be fair, Magnus may have liked Lorgar, but he definitely thought Lorgar was his inferior, from what I can tell.

Granted, Magnus felt that way about basically everyone besides the Emperor, but still, lol.

And yeah, current Lorgar does not feth around.

Angron outright states that he will never like Lorgar, but he respects him.

Also, he makes it very clear to Horus while communicating across the galaxy and in person that "Warmaster" is just a title, and that they both know who the real force behind this heresy is.

This decision was difficult for me because every Primarch has severe flaws and many are crippling personal flaws. Many are overly prideful and childish with egos far in excess of their gigantic forms. But, for me, my least favorite is the Lion. There is a lot to how he acts that doesn't sit well with me. He almost acts like a Primarch that falls but without the balls to rebel. This is compounded by recent iterations of the DA lore bringing up the question of whether Luther or Jonson was the traitor.

That being said he is still a character that I like many aspects to. He is valorous, and overall just. He has all of the traits common to all Primarchs: Vast intelligence, the ability to lead men to victory and irrefutable tactical ability. But when you get past the lip service, he is immature and paranoid.

Though my favorite Primarchs are Alpharius Omegon and Vulkan so I may just be weird.

 laginess wrote:
(SNIP) This is compounded by recent iterations of the DA lore bringing up the question of whether Luther or Jonson was the traitor.(SNIP)

Keep in mind this is told from the view of one who the Empire accuses of having 'fallen'. There is a lot of liscence in the universe for fluff being done in such a way because it is the perspective of the teller of the story, and this one is one of the most primary examples of such.

Leman Russ. He just seems like a jerk.

I don't like Konrad Curze. It just seems like the rest of the Primarchs who fell, fell for a reason, rather than Curse, who seems like he was pretty much evil from landing on his planet. Everyone else fights, for the most part, with honour. The Night Lords use total force to achieve their goals. If you have a sledgehammer, might as well use it to crack this walnut, rather than say, a nut cracker. Overkill for everything, always. And terror tactics. And, from what Ive red of the Canon, practically back talked the Emprah.

johnjemange wrote:
I don't like Konrad Curze. It just seems like the rest of the Primarchs who fell, fell for a reason, rather than Curse, who seems like he was pretty much evil from landing on his planet. Everyone else fights, for the most part, with honour. The Night Lords use total force to achieve their goals. If you have a sledgehammer, might as well use it to crack this walnut, rather than say, a nut cracker. Overkill for everything, always. And terror tactics. And, from what Ive red of the Canon, practically back talked the Emprah.

On the plus side, there's no "Captain Benjamin Willard" in 40k

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

johnjemange wrote:
I don't like Konrad Curze. It just seems like the rest of the Primarchs who fell, fell for a reason, rather than Curse, who seems like he was pretty much evil from landing on his planet. Everyone else fights, for the most part, with honour. The Night Lords use total force to achieve their goals. If you have a sledgehammer, might as well use it to crack this walnut, rather than say, a nut cracker. Overkill for everything, always. And terror tactics. And, from what Ive red of the Canon, practically back talked the Emprah.

On the plus side, there's no "Captain Benjamin Willard" in 40k

Yes there is, lol. The assassin M'Shen...

M'Shen... Martin Sheen. Captain Willard.

Can I pick the father of the primarch I like least instead of the primarch himself?

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:

johnjemange wrote:
I don't like Konrad Curze. It just seems like the rest of the Primarchs who fell, fell for a reason, rather than Curse, who seems like he was pretty much evil from landing on his planet. Everyone else fights, for the most part, with honour. The Night Lords use total force to achieve their goals. If you have a sledgehammer, might as well use it to crack this walnut, rather than say, a nut cracker. Overkill for everything, always. And terror tactics. And, from what Ive red of the Canon, practically back talked the Emprah.

On the plus side, there's no "Captain Benjamin Willard" in 40k

Yes there is, lol. The assassin M'Shen...

M'Shen... Martin Sheen. Captain Willard.

Ohh yeah... how'd I forget that?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Angron outright states that he will never like Lorgar, but he respects him.

Well, Angron certainly jumped to Lorgar's defense when the WE librarians tried to fry him. "My brother!!! NOOO!!"

johnjemange wrote:
I don't like Konrad Curze. It just seems like the rest of the Primarchs who fell, fell for a reason, rather than Curse, who seems like he was pretty much evil from landing on his planet. Everyone else fights, for the most part, with honour. The Night Lords use total force to achieve their goals. If you have a sledgehammer, might as well use it to crack this walnut, rather than say, a nut cracker. Overkill for everything, always. And terror tactics. And, from what Ive red of the Canon, practically back talked the Emprah.

Curze fell because he had a mental illness corroding his sanity and decaying his body.


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 Omegus wrote:

Well, Angron certainly jumped to Lorgar's defense when the WE librarians tried to fry him. "My brother!!! NOOO!!"

Indeed. Though, Daemon Angron is... Weird.

nobody really likes Rowboat girllyman, other than the ultra smurfs

And the people who read fluff that isn't by Mat Ward

At first I was going to pick Roboute, but after careful reflection I realized its not Roboute that I hate, its Matt Ward's creepy masturbatory writing style in the old SM codex. So I decided to give Papa Smurf a pass. Yeah, I find him dull, but that's not enough to hate a guy. I'm not that shallow when deciding who my least favorite imaginary demigod is.

So I voted for Lorgar, because its ALL HIS FAULT. And not in the good way...

Emperor: "Okay, kids... go out and conquer the galaxy so I can begin a new age of enlightenment and reason, free from the tyranny of religious dogma and boring pipe organ music!"

Lorgar: "Yay! Dad wants me to worship him as a god!"

Emps: "What? No, I totally didn't say that. I said the opposite of that. Don't worship me as a god."

Lorgar: "Did you hear that? Dad wants all of you guys to worship him as a god, too!"

Emps: "Are you even listening to me? I said don't worship me as a god! It's a pretty simple concept. Why are you having so much difficulty with it?"

Lorgar: "Hey Dad, I built this totally cool shrine world in your honor, and all these people worship you as a god! Just like you wanted!"

Emps: "Okay, now you're just f**king with me. Fine. I just burned down your whole shrine world and everyone on it because you were being stupid. Are you done being stupid now?"

Lorgar: "Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa!! Why did Dad do that?"

World Eaters Chaos Cultist (while chewing on an infant's head): "Why not join Chaos? We have cookies!"

Lorgar: "Yay! Everyone! Let's worship Chaos!"

ONE BLOODY, VIOLENT HERESY LATER---

High Lord of Terra: "Okay, to stabilize the political situation in the Empire, we kinda need everyone to worship you as a god, boss. Is that cool with you?"

Emps: "Oh f**k this."

I'm also surprised by the hate for Sanguinus. From what I have read he was nice to pretty much all of his brothers, and was generally such a nice dude that even his own troops tried to shield him from the darker side of things. Plus in the final moments of his life instead of just jumping right into CC with Horus he still loves his brother enough to try to reason with him.

The real inciting incident of the entire heresy was when the Emperor chose Horus over Sanguinus as the warmaster. Stupid stupid stupid. All the other crap decisions he made up to that point could have probably been prevented from metastasizing into full blown heresy if Sanguinus was running the show. Maybe Lorgar and Angron would have still turned, but honestly I doubt even that. I think he could have been enough of a big-brother figure to the traitor primarchs that their discontent with the emperor would sort of fade into the background.