... holy. freakin'. moley. How on earth do GW justify the prices of some (well, almost all) of what they're suggesting? What are they trying to do, put off their customers?

Lol!

Like clockwork, another poster starts a thread about the insanity that is GW pricing!

Absolutely daft in some cases huh?

I still think that most of the troop boxes represent ok value, but when you start to look at vehicles, elite choices and characters, it does start to make ones eyes bleed and wallet cramp.

Have a look at some other games, X wing and Infinity have a very low buy-in, Mierce are in the process of developing Darklands, which is very expensive on a per mini basis, but plays at a much lower model count, and has some absolutely gorgeous sculpts, or explore some of the other mini manufacturers producing alternate models.

You can do cheaper than GW, you can do much nicer quality for the same money, if you find both, please let me know!

GW prices high? That's a shocker. But overall, if you are looking to lay out some serious cash, unless GW is the only game in town, you can usually go to a local retailer and they will give you between 10% up to 25% off a large bulk order if you are looking for a bunch of stuff all at once. Otherwise, during Christmas, it's typically not the gamer that is making the purchases anyway, but a friend or family member who is just looking for something their loved one wants to play. Perfect opportunity to capitalize.

Alternatively, GW games have a much larger following and it's easier to find a variety of opponents and competitive events, which makes it more appealing to a lot of people.

Overall, I've said it before and I'll say it again, wargaming is a cheap hobby. My other hobbies tend to run me a lot more money than what I invest in wargaming.

GW pricing is allowing an unprecedented number of alternatives to break in to the market. For that reason alone I'm happy that they haven't decided to use their size to undercut smaller manufacturers (if that's even feasible for them).

This argument is somewhat diluted by my tears when I look at re-buying some of the stuff I sold last year to get some small 40k games in with friends, but I still *sob* stand by it *sniff*.

What bugs me about the gift guides aren't the prices of the products (people should be numb to those by now), but the amount they suggest you buy. Like a few years ago about Tomb Guard. "Four or five of these boxes will make a great addition to a Tomb Kings army!"

Who are they trying to kid? Seriously?

Well, I'm not a player (I model and paint instead) but after me and my kids put together some Imperial Guard and some goblins I had knocking about, we dropped in the local store to see what's what. And we watched a demo game in progress and, well, maybe they'd like to play at home. It'd keep us all good for a few days.

So... sixty pounds for a complete game, well that seemed pricey given the contents of the box, but I'd have bought it as a family present.
But, £36 for some paints and glues? Fifty pounds (minimum) for a centrepiece? Hero minis starting at £12?

I can only imagine a young person giving the list to their parents and saying 'get this', and they blindly hand it in at their GW store along with their credit card, without actually being aware of what they're buying...
Me, I'm not mean but times are hard, and I'm combing eBay and Amazon for the essentials and we'll put a game together for a whole lot less- with the armies we really want.

Us as customers should know about the high prices. In the gift guide they cant just hide the prices.

From the gift guide i saw the value looked ok, in respect to normal pricing.

The storm wing box gives you a free stormtalon, its better than most of the battleforces

 azreal13 wrote:

You can do cheaper than GW, you can do much nicer quality for the same money, if you find both, please let me know!

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2471

£20 for 40 28mm late medieval infantry designed by the same people who did most of the old Empire range. That's about 75-80% cheaper than GW's Empire and they are considerably nicer as well (and blessedly free of GRIM DARK).

Straight ScI Fi and fantasy plastics are a more difficult proposition but given time I'm sure that there will be plastics that eclipse GW's offering on every level given the quality of the resins that people like Prodos are producing.

GW charges what it does because it needs to in order to keep its revenues stable. It would be better for all concerned if GW decided to actually make some good rules for a change, possibly even try and retain customers, but as it is high pricing seems to be their preferred option.

 plastictrees wrote:
GW pricing is allowing an unprecedented number of alternatives to break in to the market. For that reason alone I'm happy that they haven't decided to use their size to undercut smaller manufacturers (if that's even feasible for them).

I think the same, really think we're experiencing (or very close to) something of a golden age of gaming. I don't think these other games taking off is just down to GW dragging its heels while regarding itself as the only player in the industry, and is probably as much about the internet serving as a focal point for fans of smaller company's games (so that they can reach a 'critical mass' of survivability more easily), but it's undoubtedly a major factor. If GW was the same kind of company it was in the 90's, in terms of its dynamism and approach to new ideas, the other guys wouldn't stand a chance... But, I'm glad it's not the case as a monopoly is generally never good for the customer.

Feel sorry for anyone without a lot of funds who is a fan of GW's stuff however, I know there is always ebay and discount sellers, but those prices get pushed up by the high RRP too and as unit sales have gone down that won't help.

 Palindrome wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

You can do cheaper than GW, you can do much nicer quality for the same money, if you find both, please let me know!

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2471

£20 for 40 28mm late medieval infantry designed by the same people who did most of the old Empire range. That's about 75-80% cheaper than GW's Empire and they are considerably nicer as well (and blessedly free of GRIM DARK).

Straight ScI Fi and fantasy plastics are a more difficult proposition but given time I'm sure that there will be plastics that eclipse GW's offering on every level given the quality of the resins that people like Prodos are producing.

GW charges what it does because it needs to in order to keep its revenues stable. It would be better for all concerned if GW decided to actually make some good rules for a change, possibly even try and retain customers, but as it is high pricing seems to be their preferred option.

I'll get nailed to a tree by my dangles for admitting this publicly on a Wargame forum, but I [whisper]dont really like a lot of the Perry's stuff.[/whisper]

But your point is sound, aesthetics aside, it is pretty difficult to argue that they aren't comparable quality for substantially less money.

The introduction of Finecast and the start of the Hobbit line really saw their prices balloon quite suddenly. GW used to be one of the only manufacturers producing boxes of high quality 28mm plastics but now there are a lot of other manufacturers doing boxes of plastic miniatures cheaper than GW; Mantic and Wargames Factory for SF and Fantasy, loads and loads of stuff for historical, Perry, Warlord, etc.

 azreal13 wrote:

I'll get nailed to a tree by my dangles for admitting this publicly on a Wargame forum, but I [whisper]dont really like a lot of the Perry's stuff.[/whisper]

While I wouldn't proscribe a Mussolini-esque death for such a statement, nevertheless I would suggest you need to take an extensive look at the Perry miniatures website in order to correct your opinions.

 Palindrome wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

You can do cheaper than GW, you can do much nicer quality for the same money, if you find both, please let me know!

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2471

£20 for 40 28mm late medieval infantry designed by the same people who did most of the old Empire range. That's about 75-80% cheaper than GW's Empire and they are considerably nicer as well (and blessedly free of GRIM DARK).

Straight ScI Fi and fantasy plastics are a more difficult proposition but given time I'm sure that there will be plastics that eclipse GW's offering on every level given the quality of the resins that people like Prodos are producing.

GW charges what it does because it needs to in order to keep its revenues stable. It would be better for all concerned if GW decided to actually make some good rules for a change, possibly even try and retain customers, but as it is high pricing seems to be their preferred option.

God bless the perry twins! Few products have satisfied so much for so long as their plastic box sets, and I don't play any historical games. Sculpting is good, bits and options are plentiful, casting is top notch, assembly is quick and simple, all of their figures are in a consistent proportioning and scale, and price is amazing! They are great fodder for conversions. The Perry's do it right.

weeble1000 wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

You can do cheaper than GW, you can do much nicer quality for the same money, if you find both, please let me know!

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2471

£20 for 40 28mm late medieval infantry designed by the same people who did most of the old Empire range. That's about 75-80% cheaper than GW's Empire and they are considerably nicer as well (and blessedly free of GRIM DARK).

Straight ScI Fi and fantasy plastics are a more difficult proposition but given time I'm sure that there will be plastics that eclipse GW's offering on every level given the quality of the resins that people like Prodos are producing.

GW charges what it does because it needs to in order to keep its revenues stable. It would be better for all concerned if GW decided to actually make some good rules for a change, possibly even try and retain customers, but as it is high pricing seems to be their preferred option.

God bless the Perry twins! Few products have satisfied so much for so long as their plastic box sets, and I don't play any historical games. Sculpting is good, bits and options are plentiful, casting is top notch, assembly is quick and simple, all of their figures are in a consistent proportioning and scale, and price is amazing! They are great fodder for conversions. The Perry's do it right.

Don't keep it in, tell us what you really think!

Yeah - I still have some of the old Perry Empire plastics - and I still think that they are about a million times better than the current run of GW Empire minis.

Next time I put together a Mordheim warband, I am getting a few boxes of Perry models.

The Auld Grump

I started on a 2000 point Empire army using nothing but the Perrys War of the Roses line. I managed to get 2 boxes painted before 8th ed hit and I lost all enthusiasm for WHFB.

If they ever make a plastic Sudan campaign British box I will be sorely tempted to make myself a new Praetorian army.

 Palindrome wrote:
It would be better for all concerned if GW decided to actually make some good rules for a change, possibly even try and retain customers, but as it is high pricing seems to be their preferred option.

This is the part that boggles me. If GW had rules of the same quality as their minis and fluff they would utterly dominate the market. I just don't get why they seem so unconcerned with this idea- it's not like it wouldn't make them more money.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


Next time I put together a Mordheim warband, I am getting a few boxes of Perry models.

The Auld Grump

That's the reason I bought my first set of perry plastics. The War of the Roses Mercenaries set is very versatile. You've got guns, crossbows, and pikes, and a decent range of armor types. Lots of different head options. I made two warbands and a blood bowl team out of it and I still mine the set for bits.

weeble1000 wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


Next time I put together a Mordheim warband, I am getting a few boxes of Perry models.

The Auld Grump

That's the reason I bought my first set of perry plastics. The War of the Roses Mercenaries set is very versatile. You've got guns, crossbows, and pikes, and a decent range of armor types. Lots of different head options. I made two warbands and a blood bowl team out of it and I still mine the set for bits.

That was the very box that I was thinking of.

The Auld Grump - a scrawny and ill-kempt lot....

Kinda wish the Perry's made plastic samurai. The metals are okay but I'm afraid of mixing them with Wargames Factory plastics. Anyone know how well they mix in since we're on the subject?

fishy bob wrote:What bugs me about the gift guides aren't the prices of the products (people should be numb to those by now), but the amount they suggest you buy. Like a few years ago about Tomb Guard. "Four or five of these boxes will make a great addition to a Tomb Kings army!"

Who are they trying to kid? Seriously?

And it keeps getting worse. Those 4-5 boxes that they tell you you'll need for your army will probably be $60-$85 each now, depending on the army.

Admittedly I'm curious about the rumored Tau bundle that I guess they'll be revealing on the 16th, but I fully expect it to be $300+ so I'm not sure if I'll be getting one.

Chrissy_J wrote:I can only imagine a young person giving the list to their parents and saying 'get this', and they blindly hand it in at their GW store along with their credit card, without actually being aware of what they're buying...

Funnily enough that's exactly what GW plans on: rich parents blindly buying huge amounts of models for their whiny kids in a single purchase and then never coming back when the kid realizes he has to build and paint them all himself and they sit forgotten in a closet.

 azreal13 wrote:

 Palindrome wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:

You can do cheaper than GW, you can do much nicer quality for the same money, if you find both, please let me know!

http://www.perry-miniatures.com/product_info.php?cPath=22_62&products_id=2471

£20 for 40 28mm late medieval infantry designed by the same people who did most of the old Empire range. That's about 75-80% cheaper than GW's Empire and they are considerably nicer as well (and blessedly free of GRIM DARK).

Straight ScI Fi and fantasy plastics are a more difficult proposition but given time I'm sure that there will be plastics that eclipse GW's offering on every level given the quality of the resins that people like Prodos are producing.

GW charges what it does because it needs to in order to keep its revenues stable. It would be better for all concerned if GW decided to actually make some good rules for a change, possibly even try and retain customers, but as it is high pricing seems to be their preferred option.

I'll get nailed to a tree by my dangles for admitting this publicly on a Wargame forum, but I [whisper]dont really like a lot of the Perry's stuff.[/whisper]

But your point is sound, aesthetics aside, it is pretty difficult to argue that they aren't comparable quality for substantially less money.

You're not alone. I can't fault how technically well sculpted their stuff is, but personally I don't go for that clinical level of detail, which is probably why historicals bore me to tears. I can accept less realistic proportions and less detail if its stylised in a way I enjoy, hence why I like GW's Vampire Counts more than Mantics Undead. Mantics Undead are, techically, better models propertionally and more realistic stylistically, but man they bore me to tears due to how generic they look. I'll take a horde of GW buttsniffer Ghouls any day.

I really, really hate the current plastic ghouls by GW - those exact figures were why I looked at Mantic in the first place.

Some of the Vampire Counts models make me want to crush them with a hammer. (Yeah, cause one legged zombies make such great draft horses.... Not.)

The Auld Grump

 Sidstyler wrote:
Kinda wish the Perry's made plastic samurai. The metals are okay but I'm afraid of mixing them with Wargames Factory plastics. Anyone know how well they mix in since we're on the subject?

fishy bob wrote:What bugs me about the gift guides aren't the prices of the products (people should be numb to those by now), but the amount they suggest you buy. Like a few years ago about Tomb Guard. "Four or five of these boxes will make a great addition to a Tomb Kings army!"

Who are they trying to kid? Seriously?

And it keeps getting worse. Those 4-5 boxes that they tell you you'll need for your army will probably be $60-$85 each now, depending on the army.

Admittedly I'm curious about the rumored Tau bundle that I guess they'll be revealing on the 16th, but I fully expect it to be $300+ so I'm not sure if I'll be getting one.

Chrissy_J wrote:I can only imagine a young person giving the list to their parents and saying 'get this', and they blindly hand it in at their GW store along with their credit card, without actually being aware of what they're buying...

I

Funnily enough that's exactly what GW plans on: rich parents blindly buying huge amounts of models for their whiny kids in a single purchase and then never coming back when the kid realizes he has to build and paint them all himself and they sit forgotten in a closet.

posted a comparison photo here http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/561318.page

Its compared with the Ashigaru but they scale very well. That said I wish perry would do plastic Samurai too. There miniatures would be of much better quality than WGF I think.

Nice. lol, I even looked at that thread the other day and completely forgot about it.

Its a bit sparse atm. Times when I feel well enough to do any painting or modeling is a little sparse latley. I will post up a comparison to the WGF samurai once they are built.

Chrissy_J wrote:
... holy. freakin'. moley. How on earth do GW justify the prices of some (well, almost all) of what they're suggesting? What are they trying to do, put off their customers?

It's justified because thousands apon thousands of customers continually buy their product at those prices because they want the product and are willing to pay.
Different people see worth in different things and they spend their money accordingly, what is wrong with people being ok with spending GW prices for things that they want?

I think the thing I really dislike about these kind of threads is that they are essentially saying (and sometimes bluntly saying); "you are an idiot if you pay GW prices". Why do people feel the need to degrade other people's hobby and what they choose to spend their hard earned cash on?

I like GW products. I've been buying them for 20+ years. I buy them from an actual GW store because that's where I game, paint and get support for my hobby. There are plenty of products from GW that aren't worth the asking price to me. So I don't buy them and don't have them in my army. What I don't do is go around telling people that it's far too much and they shouldn't buy those products- if they want to spend the money then great!

If you think it's overpriced, don't buy it.

Plenty of alternatives around these days, gamers have never been more spoilt for choice, but most would still choose to spend £140 on a single unit of witch elves.

Hobbies are expensive, you should see what I payed for a duck hunting boat.

Wow, I had tried to weather the price increase, but I just logged on to GWprime's website this morning thinking of grabbing a couple more boxes of raptors for my Nightlords army... Then I found that they have gone up to $55 from the $33 I paid for them *litterally* less than a month ago. Terminators up to $75, bike squad up to $50, predator up to $83, land raider up to $110, basic chaos marine tac squad up to $62 and khorne bezerkers up to $62...

Those are increases of 66%, 50%, 20%, 23%, 25%, and 67.5% respectively, which was something like happening overnight to me.

When did this business go down?

At the very least, a lot of independent retailers and online retailers have yet to adjust prices on old stock as of yet. I'd jump on that post haste.

You're not looking at the australian site are you, flint13? That often happens to US people- only for the aussies to come in and show that that's what they pay.

 R3con wrote:
Hobbies are expensive, you should see what I payed for a duck hunting boat.

You're complaining? You should see what I paid for my underground concrete bunker. That Uranium isn't going to enrich itself, you know.

I really hate these kind of threads. They never go any place good and it's always the same arguments repeated ad nauseum.

Games Workshop is doing what it always does and what will always continue to do until the day it finally closes its doors - charge the absolute most money that they possibly can for as little product as possible.

Yet every time one of these threads is created, the same cast of characters always shows up. First there's Mr OMGWTF Are These Prices - he usually says something like " these prices are just outrageous, I mean I was fine paying $50 for a codex but $60 is just too much! ".

Then Mr Junkie comes in. He will complain about the latest price hike but because he's addicted to plastic crack he will pay for it anyways. Usually you will see these guys ranting and raving about the latest price hike one thread, and the next one will be talking about the latest crap they bought from GW.

And it wouldn't be a GW price complaint thread without an appearance by Mr Irrelevant. No one really knows what this guy's major malfunction is, but he's guaranteed to swoop in and poo poo away any complaints about prices by comparing GW games prices to that of some other completely unrelated and irrelevant hobby from collecting classic cars to fishing to yachting or whatever.

Last but most certainly not least, is Mr Apologist. In his eyes GW can do no wrong, and the latest price hike is still not even close to what these figures are worth. Besides most of you heathens are barely even worthy of looking at a GW game, much less playing one.

 Flint13 wrote:
Wow, I had tried to weather the price increase, but I just logged on to GWprime's website this morning thinking of grabbing a couple more boxes of raptors for my Nightlords army... Then I found that they have gone up to $55 from the $33 I paid for them *litterally* less than a month ago. Terminators up to $75, bike squad up to $50, predator up to $83, land raider up to $110, basic chaos marine tac squad up to $62 and khorne bezerkers up to $62...

Those are increases of 66%, 50%, 20%, 23%, 25%, and 67.5% respectively, which was something like happening overnight to me.

When did this business go down?

At the very least, a lot of independent retailers and online retailers have yet to adjust prices on old stock as of yet. I'd jump on that post haste.

You are looking at the Australian prices. It's okay everyone, time to set your clocks again.

... how much flak for being a dumb@ss would I catch for admitting maybe yes?

 Flint13 wrote:
... how much flak for being a dumb@ss would I catch for admitting maybe yes?

None, it happens regularly (thus my clock comment)

 Flint13 wrote:
... how much flak for being a dumb@ss would I catch for admitting maybe yes?

This is the internet, and on the internet you do not admit.

To everyone saying these threads are a waste of time and that GW are a company of course they want to make money and that people still buy it anyway you're missing one key point there.

Yes people are still buying it at these prices but year on year less and less people are buying GW products. They are bleeding sales in a market where everyone else is experiencing massive growth.

More and more people are voting with their wallets, more and more people are saying enough is enough and fewer and fewer vows never again to buy GW are being forgotten when the next new shiny thing comes along.

 Lorizael wrote:

Chrissy_J wrote:
... holy. freakin'. moley. How on earth do GW justify the prices of some (well, almost all) of what they're suggesting? What are they trying to do, put off their customers?

It's justified because thousands apon thousands of customers continually buy their product at those prices because they want the product and are willing to pay.
Different people see worth in different things and they spend their money accordingly, what is wrong with people being ok with spending GW prices for things that they want?

I think the thing I really dislike about these kind of threads is that they are essentially saying (and sometimes bluntly saying); "you are an idiot if you pay GW prices". Why do people feel the need to degrade other people's hobby and what they choose to spend their hard earned cash on?

I like GW products. I've been buying them for 20+ years. I buy them from an actual GW store because that's where I game, paint and get support for my hobby. There are plenty of products from GW that aren't worth the asking price to me. So I don't buy them and don't have them in my army. What I don't do is go around telling people that it's far too much and they shouldn't buy those products- if they want to spend the money then great!

this, in its entirity. Imo the majority of gw kits are too expensive, i just don't feel the need to rage about it on the internet. But i'm glad that other people feel the need to insult others' hobbies - or even the hobbyists themselves.

Thankfully i think such opinions are demographically skewed and i would like to think the average wargamer doesn't sneer at people who collect 40k.

xruslanx wrote:
Thankfully i think such opinions are demographically skewed and i would like to think the average wargamer doesn't sneer at people who collect 40k.

Does the average wargamer not go on the internet, or interact with people in their stores or clubs?

We've got Flames of War players at my store that think Games Workshop is run by colossal idiots, and that their various games are dumb. One of them gave our little Friday night gaming group (they play Flames on Saturday) gak because we were playing 40k. These are guys that don't touch GW games, much like how some posters don't touch non-gw games.

xruslanx wrote:

 Lorizael wrote:

Chrissy_J wrote:
... holy. freakin'. moley. How on earth do GW justify the prices of some (well, almost all) of what they're suggesting? What are they trying to do, put off their customers?

It's justified because thousands apon thousands of customers continually buy their product at those prices because they want the product and are willing to pay.
Different people see worth in different things and they spend their money accordingly, what is wrong with people being ok with spending GW prices for things that they want?

I think the thing I really dislike about these kind of threads is that they are essentially saying (and sometimes bluntly saying); "you are an idiot if you pay GW prices". Why do people feel the need to degrade other people's hobby and what they choose to spend their hard earned cash on?

I like GW products. I've been buying them for 20+ years. I buy them from an actual GW store because that's where I game, paint and get support for my hobby. There are plenty of products from GW that aren't worth the asking price to me. So I don't buy them and don't have them in my army. What I don't do is go around telling people that it's far too much and they shouldn't buy those products- if they want to spend the money then great!

this, in its entirity. Imo the majority of gw kits are too expensive, i just don't feel the need to rage about it on the internet. But i'm glad that other people feel the need to insult others' hobbies - or even the hobbyists themselves.

Thankfully i think such opinions are demographically skewed and i would like to think the average wargamer doesn't sneer at people who collect 40k.

Don't you play at Warhammer World most of the time?

It wouldn't really allow you to encounter any sort of average wargamer in that environment.

Today, I realized that water is wet.

I mean, it was wet last year, but it's really wet now! So wet it's ridiculous.

When I was young, water wasn't nearly this wet.

 Polonius wrote:
Today, I realized that water is wet.

I mean, it was wet last year, but it's really wet now! So wet it's ridiculous.

When I was young, water wasn't nearly this wet.

Some of us remember what water was like before you even knew what wet was.

Haven't looked at the guide don't want this to happen.

Maybe NSFW


GW increasing prices again how unexpected!

 Alfndrate wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Thankfully i think such opinions are demographically skewed and i would like to think the average wargamer doesn't sneer at people who collect 40k.

Does the average wargamer not go on the internet, or interact with people in their stores or clubs?

I'd wager no on the internet. Given even the total populations of Dakka, Warseer and other large wargaming message boards, no industry, even a niche one, could build such a large business around such a small customer base. Anecdotally, I meet more gamers that don't, and don't want to, interact on internet message boards for this exact reason.

Even amongst the different groups at my FLGS, they all show interest in games being played even if they don't play them. I've had historical gamers cheerfully talk to me about 40k in the days of Rogue Trader, but never denigrating me or my friend for playing 6th edition, and I've seen Warmachine games right next to 40k games with gamers from both happily chatting away, even about the games themselves. I had a DnD player come up to us playing Infinity and have a chat about the system and its cover mechanics.

From personal experience, the negativity between different player bases is an internet phenomenon. Aside from the occasional TFG, player bases in person seem quite happy to talk to each other like civil human beings.

 Flint13 wrote:
... how much flak for being a dumb@ss would I catch for admitting maybe yes?

The internet: You're doing it wrong.

It happens.

I just realized that I no longer know how long ago I last purchased GW stuff.... Two years ago, maybe?

If you don't like GW prices (and I don't) then buy something else (and I do). I would say that it was the only way that GW would learn... but I no longer think that - I now think that eventually they will price themselves into oblivion, and that Kirby will retire a wealthy man.

There are a lot of good alternatives out there, at much better prices and, in my opinion, better sculpts as well.

Reaper, Mantic, Perry... all have things that I like better than GW. (I will admit to a soft spot for GW orcs - I have used them in fantasy roleplaying games for a very long time - but the Mantic orcs are also good.)

And all are less expensive than GW.

So switch.

The Auld Grump

 Phobos wrote:
I really hate these kind of threads. They never go any place good and it's always the same arguments repeated ad nauseum.

Games Workshop is doing what it always does and what will always continue to do until the day it finally closes its doors - charge the absolute most money that they possibly can for as little product as possible.

Yet every time one of these threads is created, the same cast of characters always shows up. First there's Mr OMGWTF Are These Prices - he usually says something like " these prices are just outrageous, I mean I was fine paying $50 for a codex but $60 is just too much! ".

Then Mr Junkie comes in. He will complain about the latest price hike but because he's addicted to plastic crack he will pay for it anyways. Usually you will see these guys ranting and raving about the latest price hike one thread, and the next one will be talking about the latest crap they bought from GW.

And it wouldn't be a GW price complaint thread without an appearance by Mr Irrelevant. No one really knows what this guy's major malfunction is, but he's guaranteed to swoop in and poo poo away any complaints about prices by comparing GW games prices to that of some other completely unrelated and irrelevant hobby from collecting classic cars to fishing to yachting or whatever.

Last but most certainly not least, is Mr Apologist. In his eyes GW can do no wrong, and the latest price hike is still not even close to what these figures are worth. Besides most of you heathens are barely even worthy of looking at a GW game, much less playing one.

I should make this a picture of this so bad, because it is so true....

I mean, the hobby itself is expensive, hands down (First you have to get the miniatures You get primer, glue to put together the miniatures together, then items to clean them, ect., ect...). But the prices of the models are up to the people to see if they want them. If you do not like it, then do not buy and/or buy alternatives on the market, and look into other games. There are other games that are as good out there, or even better, but you have to be open-minded about it. It is one of the joys of Capitalism and competition in the market between each other, and that can be your protest to them is to buy from other companies and not buy from them at all or very little.


(unless you are a Communist, then you might believe everyone should be equal in the amount of points every person has with the same amount of price to each army. )

Irrelevant.

A toy soldier is not a boat, nor is it a sports car.

It is a little tiny bit of tin, epoxy, or plastic.

A pile of them should not cost as much as a boat, nor yet a sports car.

If you want to compare similar hobbies and interests, then fine.

But they are not similar, now are they?

Shall we instead compare GW prices to similar toys? To the same type of toys made by other companies?

Because then we will be comparing apples to apples, not apples to hippopotami.

When Mantic switched to resin they increased the number of models.

When GW switched to resin they increased the prices.

Or just plain stopped making the model at all.

When Reaper looked at the increasing cost of tin they started making models in plastic - and dropped the price of those plastics.

When GW looked at the increasing cost of tin they also started making models in plastic - and also dropped the price of those plastics.

Until they decided that they would make more money by charging the same amount for those plastics as they had for the metal models.

And increased their prices.

Seeing a pattern here yet?

And, you know... if you really want to compare this to boats and cars... how much has the price of cars and boats gone up when compared to inflation?

The Auld Grump

Yes, the prices are high. Comparing Killa Kans to Centurions (Roughly equal in mass, not so much in price) shows that GW is indeed doing their business as usual. But, outrageous as the prices may be, I will continue buying my CSMs because I am

 Phobos wrote:
addicted to plastic crack

As Phobos so artistically put it.

But then by that logic a Ferrari is the same as a ford focus ans should be priced accordingly, or a fine fountain pen the same as a biro.

At the end of the day they can charge what they like as long as people pay they are happy.

Daston wrote:
But then by that logic a Ferrari is the same as a ford focus ans should be priced accordingly, or a fine fountain pen the same as a biro.

At the end of the day they can charge what they like as long as people pay they are happy.

Except that GW is selling you a Ford Focus.

They keep telling you that it is a Ferrari, but it is still a Ford. Not a Ferrari, not a Rolls, not a Bugatti... heck, not even a Mercedes.

It is a Ford, with an engine that dates back to the nineteen eighties, and knocks when you shift to second gear.

And folks keep saying 'Hey! Look at my Ferrari!' and wondering why other folks are shaking their heads trying to to tell them that it is still a Ford, that painting a snake eating somebody on the hood does not make it a Ferrari.

The Auld Grump... actually... more of a Ford Prefect than a Focus....

 -Loki- wrote:

From personal experience, the negativity between different player bases is an internet phenomenon. Aside from the occasional TFG, player bases in person seem quite happy to talk to each other like civil human beings.

It is, although the increasing prices of GW make it much more likely these days that if someone collects GW, then they will only collect miniatures from that company, and won't be able to branch out to other companies/games.

 Pacific wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

From personal experience, the negativity between different player bases is an internet phenomenon. Aside from the occasional TFG, player bases in person seem quite happy to talk to each other like civil human beings.

It is, although the increasing prices of GW make it much more likely these days that if someone collects GW, then they will only collect miniatures from that company, and won't be able to branch out to other companies/games.

I can see that happing right now. It's could be gw plan!

 Alfndrate wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Thankfully i think such opinions are demographically skewed and i would like to think the average wargamer doesn't sneer at people who collect 40k.

Does the average wargamer not go on the internet, or interact with people in their stores or clubs?

We've got Flames of War players at my store that think Games Workshop is run by colossal idiots, and that their various games are dumb. One of them gave our little Friday night gaming group (they play Flames on Saturday) gak because we were playing 40k. These are guys that don't touch GW games, much like how some posters don't touch non-gw games.

These are presumably people who used to play GW games and now don't touch them, rather than people who have never played non-GW games and don't touch them?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

From personal experience, the negativity between different player bases is an internet phenomenon. Aside from the occasional TFG, player bases in person seem quite happy to talk to each other like civil human beings.

Definitely this. At our club (maybe 40 players a week) there's a fair bit of friendly banter about other games being inferior, but no actual negativity.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Pacific wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

From personal experience, the negativity between different player bases is an internet phenomenon. Aside from the occasional TFG, player bases in person seem quite happy to talk to each other like civil human beings.

It is, although the increasing prices of GW make it much more likely these days that if someone collects GW, then they will only collect miniatures from that company, and won't be able to branch out to other companies/games.

I've found it makes it easier to justify other games, my pitch for people interested in X-Wing is that you can get the entire playable game for less than a single GW tank and it's always been met with an approving nod.

I guess for me it has just always boiled down to I don't want to take the time to learn a new game, and don't mind paying for GW stuff. I've been around long enough to see gas prices, milk prices, car prices, etc. raise high enough that a hobby price going up doesn't affect me anymore.

The thing that bothers me most about the pricing is the NEW players. I'm so tired of going into my GW and watching the guy try and sell parents on this stuff, "Oh, you don't need much for your child to get into it, and it can be played at very low points levels". What they fail to tell these parents is that most people don't WANT to play these low 200 - 500 pts games for very long, and you will need to invest a great deal to get to the standard 1500 - 1850 ranges.

Kids can't afford to do this, and if you can't get the youth into a game, it's going to go away.

Herzlos wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Thankfully i think such opinions are demographically skewed and i would like to think the average wargamer doesn't sneer at people who collect 40k.

Does the average wargamer not go on the internet, or interact with people in their stores or clubs?

We've got Flames of War players at my store that think Games Workshop is run by colossal idiots, and that their various games are dumb. One of them gave our little Friday night gaming group (they play Flames on Saturday) gak because we were playing 40k. These are guys that don't touch GW games, much like how some posters don't touch non-gw games.

These are presumably people who used to play GW games and now don't touch them, rather than people who have never played non-GW games and don't touch them?

As a reformed sinner someone that used to only collect GW games until I branched out, I asked them and these guys had been playing Flames and only Flames since they started wargaming.

The historicals crowd at my flgs are mostly GW players and ex-GW players.

 Matt1785 wrote:
I guess for me it has just always boiled down to I don't want to take the time to learn a new game, and don't mind paying for GW stuff. I've been around long enough to see gas prices, milk prices, car prices, etc. raise high enough that a hobby price going up doesn't affect me anymore.

It doesn't take that much time to learn a new game, maybe an evening or two. Find a game you like, see if that game's company has a volunteer program (Henchman, Pressganger, Sarge, Ranger, etc...) and see if there is one locally to you. Or grab a starter set and learn the game. Most games don't have gakky 1-sided starter boxes, and most of them are better buys than the GW alternative.

The thing that bothers me most about the pricing is the NEW players. I'm so tired of going into my GW and watching the guy try and sell parents on this stuff, "Oh, you don't need much for your child to get into it, and it can be played at very low points levels". What they fail to tell these parents is that most people don't WANT to play these low 200 - 500 pts games for very long, and you will need to invest a great deal to get to the standard 1500 - 1850 ranges.

Kids can't afford to do this, and if you can't get the youth into a game, it's going to go away.

I can get behind this statement. Similar sentiments have been my selling points for other games. "An average army can cost you 150 dollars, which can't even get you half of a GW army (besides GK).

 Matt1785 wrote:
I guess for me it has just always boiled down to I don't want to take the time to learn a new game, and don't mind paying for GW stuff. I've been around long enough to see gas prices, milk prices, car prices, etc. raise high enough that a hobby price going up doesn't affect me anymore.

The thing that bothers me most about the pricing is the NEW players. I'm so tired of going into my GW and watching the guy try and sell parents on this stuff, "Oh, you don't need much for your child to get into it, and it can be played at very low points levels". What they fail to tell these parents is that most people don't WANT to play these low 200 - 500 pts games for very long, and you will need to invest a great deal to get to the standard 1500 - 1850 ranges.

Kids can't afford to do this, and if you can't get the youth into a game, it's going to go away.

Ah well, here we are again.

My son and his mates are into the game; parents tend to think it's expensive, so they make them buy it bit by bit and only purchase more when it's a birthday, or when they've saved up their pocket money. It's not really that excessive compared to £30 or £40 xbox games. Admittedly, most parents squeal for joy when you mention you can get 25% off at Dark Sphere.

Most parents do indeed reckon the models are expensive compared to Airfix etc. But they're in general less than the cool Lego sets, and there is the advantage of the social aspect and the (generally albeit not always) good support from stores. So, across a sample of around 10 kids who my son plays with, I don't think pricing is a killer issue, at least no more than for other games. Most school leagues only allow games up to 500 or 750 points, and this helps with the price issue.

 Alfndrate wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Thankfully i think such opinions are demographically skewed and i would like to think the average wargamer doesn't sneer at people who collect 40k.

Does the average wargamer not go on the internet, or interact with people in their stores or clubs?

We've got Flames of War players at my store that think Games Workshop is run by colossal idiots, and that their various games are dumb. One of them gave our little Friday night gaming group (they play Flames on Saturday) gak because we were playing 40k. These are guys that don't touch GW games, much like how some posters don't touch non-gw games.

These are presumably people who used to play GW games and now don't touch them, rather than people who have never played non-GW games and don't touch them?

As a reformed sinner someone that used to only collect GW games until I branched out, I asked them and these guys had been playing Flames and only Flames since they started wargaming.

That's pretty surprising, but also pretty telling. It used to be that almost everyone came into gaming via GW and had at least 1 GW army somewhere, but we're now starting to see people who are bypassing GW entirely. Which I think can only be a good thing except for GW players.

Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Admittedly, most parents squeal for joy when you mention you can get 25% off at Dark Sphere.

I am assuming that these parents squealing for joy know about these discounts because of you yes? I've got no problems with sharing information like that, but your average parent and their kid walk into a Games Workshop for a white dwarf and a box of space marines to go with their fantasy purchase, there's no one telling them about the deep discounts available from competitors, and that's where the problem lies. If you say, "hey you can get this cheaper elsewhere" in a store that you're attempting to make money at, you won't be making money there for long (if at all). GW relies on uninformed people and those of us 'addicted' to their product to keep buying everything at a Games Workshop or from GW's website. Pesky things like information and other game systems throw a wrench into those plans.

Herzlos, yeah it was a little startling, but when I thought about it, these were guys that take their gaming as srs bzns and want 'realism' in their games. These fethers are cut throat and one of the reason why I won't spend the gas money to go to the flgs on Saturdays when they play. Nothing like my own teammate getting mad at me in a 3000 point game because I was getting my combat platoons confused (which can happen with 14 unpainted Shermans on the board ).

Herzlos wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

Herzlos wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Thankfully i think such opinions are demographically skewed and i would like to think the average wargamer doesn't sneer at people who collect 40k.

Does the average wargamer not go on the internet, or interact with people in their stores or clubs?

We've got Flames of War players at my store that think Games Workshop is run by colossal idiots, and that their various games are dumb. One of them gave our little Friday night gaming group (they play Flames on Saturday) gak because we were playing 40k. These are guys that don't touch GW games, much like how some posters don't touch non-gw games.

These are presumably people who used to play GW games and now don't touch them, rather than people who have never played non-GW games and don't touch them?

As a reformed sinner someone that used to only collect GW games until I branched out, I asked them and these guys had been playing Flames and only Flames since they started wargaming.

That's pretty surprising, but also pretty telling. It used to be that almost everyone came into gaming via GW and had at least 1 GW army somewhere, but we're now starting to see people who are bypassing GW entirely. Which I think can only be a good thing except for GW players.

...ymmv. I don't think i or any 40k player i've ever met would be collecting if it weren't for games workshop's high street presence. Those demo games you get, the painting tutorials (and free model!), the helpful demeanor of the staff.... If all that were to go, it's not like all those kids would be playing alternatives - they probably wouldn't be playing anything.

I've heard it's different in the states, where flgs are more common, and not everyone goes to a town centre every weekend. In such an environment, alternative games would probably be stronger. But i can honestly say that would not be the case here, i have only seen two flgs in my entire life and they've both been shut down, presumably due to lack of sales.

I'm sure that there are people who got into wargaming through a different route than a games workshop store, and being a specialised ttwg site there are bound to be proportionally way more on dakka...but i don't think i'm exagerating when i say that the average 40k player simply wouldn't have even heard of tabletop wargaming were it not for gw's high street presence.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Irrelevant.

And, you know... if you really want to compare this to boats and cars... how much has the price of cars and boats gone up when compared to inflation?

The Auld Grump

Some of their price hikes are inexcusable yet some are not. For example recently the Dire Avengers debacle totally unjustified.

But when you look at say the Marine Dreadnought... Venerable £28 and with various weapon fits and appearances compared to say the original bulky dread post RT days that was £20 but only got you 2 weapons and a choice of 1 sarcophagus depending on your choice of chapter.

So £20 almost 20 years ago and now £28 for an arguably nicer model with more options than ever before and an easier medium to work with... Kind of blows the inflation argument out of the water considering the UK rate of inflation has been over 2%pa on average.

And lets not forget this isn't a new development with GW, they have always priced models on a mix of design and unit effectiveness and then designed rules to make them invaluable to a gamer. Anyone who can remember the Realm of Chaos fantasy books with their Warband rules will know the pain of creating army lists based on model sales.

 Matt1785 wrote:
I guess for me it has just always boiled down to I don't want to take the time to learn a new game, and don't mind paying for GW stuff. I've been around long enough to see gas prices, milk prices, car prices, etc. raise high enough that a hobby price going up doesn't affect me anymore.

The thing that bothers me most about the pricing is the NEW players. I'm so tired of going into my GW and watching the guy try and sell parents on this stuff, "Oh, you don't need much for your child to get into it, and it can be played at very low points levels". What they fail to tell these parents is that most people don't WANT to play these low 200 - 500 pts games for very long, and you will need to invest a great deal to get to the standard 1500 - 1850 ranges.

Kids can't afford to do this, and if you can't get the youth into a game, it's going to go away.

M
I see kids in Games workshop often. They can get the mooney easily at birthdays and Xmas. Not forgetting spoilt kids.

xruslanx wrote:

...ymmv. I don't think i or any 40k player i've ever met would be collecting if it weren't for games workshop's high street presence. Those demo games you get, the painting tutorials (and free model!), the helpful demeanor of the staff.... If all that were to go, it's not like all those kids would be playing alternatives - they probably wouldn't be playing anything.

I've heard it's different in the states, where flgs are more common, and not everyone goes to a town centre every weekend. In such an environment, alternative games would probably be stronger. But i can honestly say that would not be the case here, i have only seen two flgs in my entire life and they've both been shut down, presumably due to lack of sales.

I'm sure that there are people who got into wargaming through a different route than a games workshop store, and being a specialised ttwg site there are bound to be proportionally way more on dakka...but i don't think i'm exagerating when i say that the average 40k player simply wouldn't have even heard of tabletop wargaming were it not for gw's high street presence.

Wargames existed before Games Workshop, and there are an increasing number of gamers coming into TTWGing without coming via Games Workshop. So whilst GW did a lot of recruiting and has done a lot for the industry, table top wargaming wouldn't disappear without GW. It'd probably do better since people would drop this mentality that one game is the be all and end off of the hobby.

 Matt1785 wrote:
I guess for me it has just always boiled down to I don't want to take the time to learn a new game

I understand , but though the core tends to be similar ( or has been since 4th ed - cant comment on earlier than that ) , there can be a fair amount of re-learning if you want to keep up when new editions come out .

 Flippa wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
Irrelevant.

And, you know... if you really want to compare this to boats and cars... how much has the price of cars and boats gone up when compared to inflation?

The Auld Grump

Some of their price hikes are inexcusable yet some are not. For example recently the Dire Avengers debacle totally unjustified.

But when you look at say the Marine Dreadnought... Venerable £28 and with various weapon fits and appearances compared to say the original bulky dread post RT days that was £20 but only got you 2 weapons and a choice of 1 sarcophagus depending on your choice of chapter.

So £20 almost 20 years ago and now £28 for an arguably nicer model with more options than ever before and an easier medium to work with... Kind of blows the inflation argument out of the water considering the UK rate of inflation has been over 2%pa on average.

And lets not forget this isn't a new development with GW, they have always priced models on a mix of design and unit effectiveness and then designed rules to make them invaluable to a gamer. Anyone who can remember the Realm of Chaos fantasy books with their Warband rules will know the pain of creating army lists based on model sales.

And does the model cost them more or less to manufacture than it did when they charged twenty quid?

The one at 20 GBP was made of metal, the Venerable Dreadnaught is made of plastic.

So, they are charging more for a model that costs them less.

How much more does it cost them to have the extra weapons on the frame?

So... where does that extra cost come from, since they charge more for something that to all appearances costs them much less?

I was all over the Empire halberdiers and swordsmen plastics when they came out - they were wonderful value for money, and poseable. A seventeen dollar box could be used for so many games, and contained so much stuff.

Now they are charging twice as much for half the number of figures.... (And they are no longer as poseable - which likely does not bother everybody, but does annoy me.)

There is a problem there.

The Auld Grump

 fishy bob wrote:
What bugs me about the gift guides aren't the prices of the products (people should be numb to those by now), but the amount they suggest you buy. Like a few years ago about Tomb Guard. "Four or five of these boxes will make a great addition to a Tomb Kings army!"

Who are they trying to kid? Seriously?

Pretty much how they teach their sales people at their stores. There are definitely cool dudes working in em.. but the vast majority throw out sales pitches to pre-teens. Me and my cousin a few years back in our 20s walked into one of their stores. This guy was trying to talk my cousin into buying the Chaos Army Box as well as a Shaggoth when my cousin clearly told him repeatedly that he only needs like a few of the models from the set (Chaos Warriors). The sales guy then followed with "cmawwwwn.. I know you want it.. cmawwwwwwnnn... " like for a good minute straight. Pretty cringey considering the sales tactics he was spewing at a chemist with a master's degree.

 gorenut wrote:

 fishy bob wrote:
What bugs me about the gift guides aren't the prices of the products (people should be numb to those by now), but the amount they suggest you buy. Like a few years ago about Tomb Guard. "Four or five of these boxes will make a great addition to a Tomb Kings army!"

Who are they trying to kid? Seriously?

Pretty much how they teach their sales people at their stores. There are definitely cool dudes working in em.. but the vast majority throw out sales pitches to pre-teens. Me and my cousin a few years back in our 20s walked into one of their stores. This guy was trying to talk my cousin into buying the Chaos Army Box as well as a Shaggoth when my cousin clearly told him repeatedly that he only needs like a few of the models from the set (Chaos Warriors). The sales guy then followed with "cmawwwwn.. I know you want it.. cmawwwwwwnnn... " like for a good minute straight. Pretty cringey considering the sales tactics he was spewing at a chemist with a master's degree.

That's called "bad customer service" and you get it everywhere. If someone in GW tried to upsell to me like that I'd contact GW's main customer service department, because gak like that is not acceptable.

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


And does the model cost them more or less to manufacture than it did when they charged twenty quid?

The one at 20 GBP was made of metal, the Venerable Dreadnaught is made of plastic.

So, they are charging more for a model that costs them less.

How much more does it cost them to have the extra weapons on the frame?

So... where does that extra cost come from, since they charge more for something that to all appearances costs them much less?

I was all over the Empire halberdiers and swordsmen plastics when they came out - they were wonderful value for money, and poseable. A seventeen dollar box could be used for so many games, and contained so much stuff.

Now they are charging twice as much for half the number of figures.... (And they are no longer as poseable - which likely does not bother everybody, but does annoy me.)

There is a problem there.

The Auld Grump

I agree with you on some of the stranger decisions that emanate from GW like the Dire Avengers and Empire Halberdiers, but here's what I think.

The medium in which the model is cast shouldn't have that big an influence in the final price of the mini. (Unless it's cast in gold ) I spoke to some of the dev team at the last GD I went to and the said it costs a hell of a lot more to create the mould for plastics than it does white metal alloy/resin and then you have to bear in mind economies of scale, they have to recoup their outlay, pay for further development and turn a profit and whilst they will sell box after box of rank and file/squads the same cannot be said for the larger pieces.

Do you think that it's right that a metal dreadnought, hard to convert with only limited options should cost more than a plastic dreadnought, easy to convert/pose and comes with all the options you want? Does the sculpt not dictate the price for you? Because I would rather have plastics like the newer Dreadnought and beautifully sculpted minis like the Deathwing Knights than the old static metal Deathwing. (Whilst cool in a retro kind of way, don't stand up to the sculpts of today)

Myself and a friend had this argument earlier this week, for me I prefer to have beautiful models regardless of the medium of the mini and £32 for mini like the Mortis Engine to me is worth it. Compare that to some of the £100 Warmahordes minis and well there's no comparison really. I know that you need many many more miniatures to be able to play GW games and I think this is where the main crux of the matter is. It's not that GWs minis are too expensive per se, it's just the scale of which you need them.

Well, I seem to have kicked over a hornets' nest ... some interesting views and comments, for which I thank you all.

May I just say that I'm not having a personal dig at anyone here or elsewhere; I honestly don't care if you think GW is the centre of your universe or whether you think it's trading techniques are akin to cannibalism, your views are your own and I respect them.
I just thought that the prices listed in GW's guide were excessively high and wondered if anyone else had thought the same (or not); I didn't meant to cause offense to any happy customers of GW.

As I said before, I don't play and I'm only an occasional modeller. I'm grateful for the Internet because the last time I was involved with this hobby (back in 1997) GW was the only resource in town and buying from other manufacturers was very much a shot in the dark. I'm a better and more confident modeller now and it's because of the start I got from GW years ago, but ... they were pricey then and I still think they're too expensive. Sorry.

Chrissy just a quick question and I'm not having a dig or trying to start an argument but do you think that the following minis are so far out of whack with what's acceptable pricing?

http://elementgames.co.uk/wargames-and-miniatures/hordes/mercenary-colossal-ghordson-earthbreaker-and-resin

and

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1800005

Or

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine_Aircraft/STORM_EAGLE.html

There doesn't seem to be a lot in it to me. I'm not trying to be pro GW or being closed minded, I'm just being curious

To be honest I think they're all fearsomely expensive.
I couldn't in all conscience justify spending that much money on a single model or in a single hobby purchase; in fact for £105 I'd expect it to do my housework for me. Even the Stompa would cost a week's benefit money.

I appreciate that they'd be one-off purchases for many gamers and I also appreciate that the costs involved in designing, producing and marketing these models are considerable, with a high price representing some cost recuperation, rarity on the game table or display cabinet, and perceived value. But the same high prices just make them out of my reach.

Perhaps I'm just tight-fisted. After all, I did wince at paying £18 for a box of Cadian Troops for my son's birthday.

You're aware two of your three examples are from Games Workshop?

You're also aware that while the Stompa and Colossal are roughly analogous in some ways, you appreciate a large, multi part resin model is an entirely different prospect in terms of development and production costs to a plastic kit?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
A better example



£98.99



£94.75



£144

Also worth mentioning that the Bloodthirster doesn't appear to qualify for free shipping, so if I'm correct, that means an extra 15% (?) on the RRP, the Mierce model has a free shipping option and the Archangel is sold by Wayland, so will be reasonable.

So a minimum of ~50% premium, if you could avoid the shipping for what I think is the worst model of the three.

I even been generous and not used the discount price on the Archangel, which is <£90.

 Flippa wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:


And does the model cost them more or less to manufacture than it did when they charged twenty quid?

The one at 20 GBP was made of metal, the Venerable Dreadnaught is made of plastic.

So, they are charging more for a model that costs them less.

How much more does it cost them to have the extra weapons on the frame?

So... where does that extra cost come from, since they charge more for something that to all appearances costs them much less?

I was all over the Empire halberdiers and swordsmen plastics when they came out - they were wonderful value for money, and poseable. A seventeen dollar box could be used for so many games, and contained so much stuff.

Now they are charging twice as much for half the number of figures.... (And they are no longer as poseable - which likely does not bother everybody, but does annoy me.)

There is a problem there.

The Auld Grump

I agree with you on some of the stranger decisions that emanate from GW like the Dire Avengers and Empire Halberdiers, but here's what I think.

The medium in which the model is cast shouldn't have that big an influence in the final price of the mini. (Unless it's cast in gold ) I spoke to some of the dev team at the last GD I went to and the said it costs a hell of a lot more to create the mould for plastics than it does white metal alloy/resin and then you have to bear in mind economies of scale, they have to recoup their outlay, pay for further development and turn a profit and whilst they will sell box after box of rank and file/squads the same cannot be said for the larger pieces.

Do you think that it's right that a metal dreadnought, hard to convert with only limited options should cost more than a plastic dreadnought, easy to convert/pose and comes with all the options you want? Does the sculpt not dictate the price for you? Because I would rather have plastics like the newer Dreadnought and beautifully sculpted minis like the Deathwing Knights than the old static metal Deathwing. (Whilst cool in a retro kind of way, don't stand up to the sculpts of today)

Myself and a friend had this argument earlier this week, for me I prefer to have beautiful models regardless of the medium of the mini and £32 for mini like the Mortis Engine to me is worth it. Compare that to some of the £100 Warmahordes minis and well there's no comparison really. I know that you need many many more miniatures to be able to play GW games and I think this is where the main crux of the matter is. It's not that GWs minis are too expensive per se, it's just the scale of which you need them.

The medium that a model is manufactured from should play a large, possibly a controlling, part in the pricing of the model.

I, as an example, do not think that the Venerable Dreadnaught is worth as much as they charge - but then I also don't particularly like ornate nature of the model - I prefer a simplicity that I can customize myself. It is overly busy. So, I am negatively biased by way of aesthetics.

That GW now includes alternate weapons loadouts is admirable - but, really, that is what they should have done from the beginning.

There have also been GW models that increased in price during the conversion to plastic - ork vehicle models, heavy weapons, etc.

I look at what other companies are producing - Kromlech, Mantic, Victoria Lamb, Chapterhouse, the Perry twins, and GW comes up short.

Nice models, but their competitors produce models that are nearly as good, as good, or better and charge less.

These are not the finest toy soldiers in the world, they are above average, but there are better, and at a better price.

And now, I suspect, they are in a very bad positive feedback loop - higher prices > lower sales > raising prices to make up the loss > lower sales.... repeat once or twice a year.

They are going after the quick dime, and losing out on the slow dollar.

The Auld Grump

glidden wrote:
Overall, I've said it before and I'll say it again, wargaming is a cheap hobby. My other hobbies tend to run me a lot more money than what I invest in wargaming.

But you are comparing apples and oranges. I think the major difference is that most hobbies are priced competitively. If they are expensive its because they need to be, because things like materials, fuel, instruction, safety gear etc... make them so. Even if you got all those things at cost prices, it still winds up expensive because it is an expensive hobby. That is different to it being a cheap hobby with inflated prices.

If you want to argue that it is comparatively cheap then try comparing like for like. Historical wargaming companies like Victrix sell miniatures for something like 30p per model, and the quality is beautiful. GW is like 10,000% more expensive... Go figure.

It's also important to remember that most of the 'value' people claim to get out of GW, is not actually provided by GW. The hours of enjoyment, and the satisfaction you get from modeling and painting are not sold at Games Workshop. Your creativity belongs to you already. GW just sells plastic.

If I did want to defend GW pricing, then I would argue that the cost is somewhat irrelevant since miniatures don't really depreciate in value. You can buy them, open them, glue them, paint them, play with them, put them in a box for 5 years... And if at any time you regret all the money that you spent on them, and wish that you could have it all back... You can sell them and get it all back. If they are nicely painted or OOP you might even get a lot more back. I wish I could say the same for all the other crap I've blown money on, like computers, phones, clothes, DVDs, console games... 5 years down the line you can't even give that stuff away, but miniatures just keep going up.

 Smacks wrote:
If you want to argue that it is comparatively cheap then try comparing like for like. Historical wargaming companies like Victrix sell miniatures for something like 30p per model, and the quality is beautiful. GW is like 10,000% more expensive... Go figure.

It's amusing that you want a like for like comparison, then go and compare a single plastic model off a frame of 15 to, I assume, 3 Forgeworld Mantas to get that percentage difference.

Like for like, a Space Marine from the tactical squad box (a decent comparison, a 28mm plastic model from a frame of 10) is ₤2.5. A single Victrix infantry model off a ₤5.95 frame of 15 is roughly 40p. That's roughly 550% more expensive. It's a good deal more, but a far cry from your 10000%. It's a bit better if you compare, say, a Guardman, which comes to ₤1.8, or 450% more. Termagants are ₤1.5, so roughly 400%.

GW models are expensive, but if we're going to call for like for like comparisons, how about we actually do them?

I like how people complain that there's always threads criticizing GW prices.

It's almost like GW has a pricing problem.

Nah. Their prices are fine. Any problems are due to minimum wage!!!

 Harriticus wrote:
I like how people complain that there's always threads criticizing GW prices.

It's almost like GW has a pricing problem.

it seems like everything is a rip off nowadays not just GW.

Some of it i actually find to be reasonably priced.

25 bucks for 5 power armour guys from an online US discounter seems to be a fair enough price to me.
The wraithknight on the other hand is a massive rip. 100 bucks for an over sized hunk of junk is just too much.

 -Loki- wrote:

 Smacks wrote:
If you want to argue that it is comparatively cheap then try comparing like for like. Historical wargaming companies like Victrix sell miniatures for something like 30p per model, and the quality is beautiful. GW is like 10,000% more expensive... Go figure.

It's amusing that you want a like for like comparison, then go and compare a single plastic model off a frame of 15 to, I assume, 3 Forgeworld Mantas to get that percentage difference.

Like for like, a Space Marine from the tactical squad box (a decent comparison, a 28mm plastic model from a frame of 10) is ₤2.5. A single Victrix infantry model off a ₤5.95 frame of 15 is roughly 40p. That's roughly 550% more expensive. It's a good deal more, but a far cry from your 10000%. It's a bit better if you compare, say, a Guardman, which comes to ₤1.8, or 450% more. Termagants are ₤1.5, so roughly 400%.

GW models are expensive, but if we're going to call for like for like comparisons, how about we actually do them?

I imagine the 10000% comment was hyperbole rather than being a genuine price comparison.

kb305 wrote:

25 bucks for 5 power armour guys from an online US discounter seems to be a fair enough price to me.

The fact that you have to buy through an online discounter to consider it a fair price speaks volumes (and none of it good).

 azreal13 wrote:

I'll get nailed to a tree by my dangles for admitting this publicly on a Wargame forum, but I [whisper]dont really like a lot of the Perry's stuff.[/whisper]

But your point is sound, aesthetics aside, it is pretty difficult to argue that they aren't comparable quality for substantially less money.

Please present your testicles at the old oak by the crossroads. An angry mob, I mean a team of professionals will meet you there

Yeah, I love the Perrys stuff, they really have a talent for the miniature sculpting. I still prefer their ranges to the current GW stuff. Especially for its notable lack of skulls.

To the OP: GWs stuff is pricey. we all know it. I mustered out when squads of IG reached £16-£18 for 10 men. I mustered out of fantasy earlier, when Clanrats reached £20 for 20.... Bearing in mind I need at least 40 per unit, whilst Stormvermin have reached £30 for 13.... And ill need at least 30

 azreal13 wrote:
You're aware two of your three examples are from Games Workshop?

Also worth mentioning that the Bloodthirster doesn't appear to qualify for free shipping, so if I'm correct, that means an extra 15% (?) on the RRP, the Mierce model has a free shipping option and the Archangel is sold by Wayland, so will be reasonable.

So a minimum of ~50% premium, if you could avoid the shipping for what I think is the worst model of the three.

I even been generous and not used the discount price on the Archangel, which is <£90.

OK Azreal13 maybe I should take into consideration resin vs plastic although personally I don't see a difference on the material and prefer to look at the sculpt.

So maybe it would be worth comparing the

http://elementgames.co.uk/cult-steampunk-other-miniatures-games/hordes/legion-of-everblight/archangel

to the

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer/Warhammer_Monsters/WARPFIRE_DRAGON.html a very similar model but half the cost.

Either way we could sit and poke holes in discussions all day and as I have conceded some of GWs pricing is just bonkers but then again so are other companies, it's not a cheap hobby (although it's cheaper than my love for RC stuff)

And as for that Mierce Minis figure... wow it's stunning and a comparable if not a better model than the FW Bloodthirster which is also nice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Smacks wrote:
If you want to argue that it is comparatively cheap then try comparing like for like. Historical wargaming companies like Victrix sell miniatures for something like 30p per model, and the quality is beautiful. GW is like 10,000% more expensive... Go figure.

It's amusing that you want a like for like comparison, then go and compare a single plastic model off a frame of 15 to, I assume, 3 Forgeworld Mantas to get that percentage difference.

Like for like, a Space Marine from the tactical squad box (a decent comparison, a 28mm plastic model from a frame of 10) is ₤2.5. A single Victrix infantry model off a ₤5.95 frame of 15 is roughly 40p. That's roughly 550% more expensive. It's a good deal more, but a far cry from your 10000%. It's a bit better if you compare, say, a Guardman, which comes to ₤1.8, or 450% more. Termagants are ₤1.5, so roughly 400%.

GW models are expensive, but if we're going to call for like for like comparisons, how about we actually do them?

Or 10 GW Space Marines for £21.50, which is £2.15 a single mini or 10 PP Convergence Reductors for £34.19, which is £3.42 per mini.

carlos13th wrote:

 -Loki- wrote:

 Smacks wrote:
If you want to argue that it is comparatively cheap then try comparing like for like. Historical wargaming companies like Victrix sell miniatures for something like 30p per model, and the quality is beautiful. GW is like 10,000% more expensive... Go figure.

It's amusing that you want a like for like comparison, then go and compare a single plastic model off a frame of 15 to, I assume, 3 Forgeworld Mantas to get that percentage difference.

Like for like, a Space Marine from the tactical squad box (a decent comparison, a 28mm plastic model from a frame of 10) is ₤2.5. A single Victrix infantry model off a ₤5.95 frame of 15 is roughly 40p. That's roughly 550% more expensive. It's a good deal more, but a far cry from your 10000%. It's a bit better if you compare, say, a Guardman, which comes to ₤1.8, or 450% more. Termagants are ₤1.5, so roughly 400%.

GW models are expensive, but if we're going to call for like for like comparisons, how about we actually do them?

I imagine the 10000% comment was hyperbole rather than being a genuine price comparison.

I knew when I read Smacks' post that someone was gonna ignore the point and choose to nitpick on the number instead. It's standard practice.

Flippa wrote:Or 10 GW Space Marines for £21.50, which is £2.15 a single mini or 10 PP Convergence Reductors for £34.19, which is £3.42 per mini.

Ouch ouch ouch. I sense butthurt coming this way

 Flippa wrote:
Or 10 GW Space Marines for £21.50, which is £2.15 a single mini or 10 PP Convergence Reductors for £34.19, which is £3.42 per mini.

I'm no expert in either company's minatures, but isn't that hard plastic vs resin mix?

 Riquende wrote:

 Flippa wrote:
Or 10 GW Space Marines for £21.50, which is £2.15 a single mini or 10 PP Convergence Reductors for £34.19, which is £3.42 per mini.

I'm no expert in either company's minatures, but isn't that hard plastic vs resin mix?

Likewise I'm no expert, but according to the element games webby they're both plastic.

 Flippa wrote:

 Riquende wrote:

 Flippa wrote:
Or 10 GW Space Marines for £21.50, which is £2.15 a single mini or 10 PP Convergence Reductors for £34.19, which is £3.42 per mini.

I'm no expert in either company's minatures, but isn't that hard plastic vs resin mix?

Likewise I'm no expert, but according to the element games webby they're both plastic.

They are both marketed as plastic because they're both a version of plastic. GW uses it's standard plastic, and the Reductors are made from the resin/plastic mix (or restic) that Privateer has been using for a few years now. Since it's not 'pure plastic' as we are used to in the hobby, it has a few different properties than the 'GW plastic'.

I will say this though, in your example of 10 space marines vs 10 reductors is a fair comparison that makes GW seem reasonably priced. But there are other comparisons as well like the Warjacks vs Dreadnoughts where a warjack kit is $35 and a dreadnought is $46.75, but all of Privateer's infantry boxes are about $50USD a box, whereas the GW troops range from 35 for 5 models (dire avengers) to 40 bucks for 10, to 36.75 for 12 Fire Warriors + a few drones. The problem with GW is that there is no real consistancy across the board. And I mean If I wanted a unique unit of Terminators, I could buy Khador Man-o-War Shocktroopers for 5 bucks cheaper than the GW kit.

The price comparison between GW and PP really starts to skew when you look at the cost of an army of average points size (so 35 to 50 in PP's case and 1500 to 2000 in GW's case).

 Flippa wrote:
Chrissy just a quick question and I'm not having a dig or trying to start an argument but do you think that the following minis are so far out of whack with what's acceptable pricing?

http://elementgames.co.uk/wargames-and-miniatures/hordes/mercenary-colossal-ghordson-earthbreaker-and-resin

and

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?prodId=prod1800005

Or

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Space_Marines/Space_Marine_Aircraft/STORM_EAGLE.html

There doesn't seem to be a lot in it to me. I'm not trying to be pro GW or being closed minded, I'm just being curious

One thing to consider is that the Earthbreaker will be 19pts out of a list with a total value of around 40-55pts. I'm fairly sure (but not certain) that the GW kits are a proportionally smaller part of an "evening's gaming" size army, for the same sort of cost.

 Flippa wrote:


Or 10 GW Space Marines for £21.50, which is £2.15 a single mini or 10 PP Convergence Reductors for £34.19, which is £3.42 per mini.

Or you could compare the Reducters - an elite unit you would have only one of in an army, against a similar space marine unit.

Like, I dont know, Vanguard Veterans. A unit of 10.

remind me how much that costs.

Cherry picking prices is utter nonsense. I got a starter box of privateer stuff this month and enough extras to make a 20 point army to learn with - including the rules, for £50.(Cryx, but it applies to all the factions)
My rulebook for 40K cost £45, and the rules for my army cost £20(Blood angels). Thats without buying a model.

GW is expensive, not in comparison to horse breeding , faberge egg collecting, learning to fly or any other nonsensical comparison, but compared to OTHER WARGAMES. Its actual competition.

It's not really cherry picking... Look at a similarly sized box for Warmachine (say Khador Winter Guard for the makings of the WGDS). It's a 10 model box for 50 bucks. The reductors may be an elite unit you can only have one of in your army, but ten 30mm based models from PP are generally 50USD for the box. 10 Space Marines are 40. It's not that big of a different, but you far more than just those 40 dollar space marines to make a 40k army.

I can't get over how crazy expensive WM/H is in the UK.

US MSRP: $139.99 = 87.61GBP

For painters and modellers, the discussion about how many of whatever minis you need in an army and how many points out of that there total they are is...meaningless.

 Alfndrate wrote:
It's not really cherry picking... Look at a similarly sized box for Warmachine (say Khador Winter Guard for the makings of the WGDS). It's a 10 model box for 50 bucks. The reductors may be an elite unit you can only have one of in your army, but ten 30mm based models from PP are generally 50USD for the box. 10 Space Marines are 40. It's not that big of a different, but you far more than just those 40 dollar space marines to make a 40k army.

Of course its cherry picking, because 10 space marines are only cheaper in one specific circumstance, a tactical squad.

If you want sternguard veterans 10 would cost you £60.

Vanguards Veterans would cost you £50

Death Company, Assault squad, sanguinary guard, devastators, £41 for 10.

Which as I said its nonsense, you can pick certain units from any game to make a point about pricing either way, but I can get started in warmachine -with models- for less than the rules for my blood angels.

I got started in Infinity for exactly £27, a panoceania starter box, enough models for decent games and free rules.

I spent £45 just to update the rules for a game I've been playing since second edition. I love 40K, I have huge numbers of models, a forgeworld Baneblade, I've spent fortunes with them. But their games are simply a lot more expensive to play than anything else out there. Its churlish to pretend otherwise.

NoggintheNog wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
It's not really cherry picking... Look at a similarly sized box for Warmachine (say Khador Winter Guard for the makings of the WGDS). It's a 10 model box for 50 bucks. The reductors may be an elite unit you can only have one of in your army, but ten 30mm based models from PP are generally 50USD for the box. 10 Space Marines are 40. It's not that big of a different, but you far more than just those 40 dollar space marines to make a 40k army.

Of course its cherry picking, because 10 space marines are only cheaper in one specific circumstance, a tactical squad.

Calm your tits there big guy, the reason why I said it wasn't cherry picking is because he used a 10 man box vs a 10 man box. You are getting roughly the same amount of models and bits. For you as a Brit, 21.00GBP for a box and 34.25GBP for a box is a significant difference, convert that to USD and it's not that big of a difference, both boxes cost within 10 dollars of each other. And as I pointed out, all of Privateer Presses 30mm based plastic infantry are all roughly $50USD. There are I think maybe 2 outliers, but for the most part 50 dollars for 10 models. Or 40 dollars for 10 models. That's not that messed up when compared to each other, that's why it's not cherry picking, and that's also why I suggested the Khador Winter Guard because they're a basic trooper model just like the tactical squad. Although I was looking at the 10 man Rifleman squad which is 50 dollars, the 10 man Winter Guard & Rocket Troopers is 13 models for 50 bucks (mah bad).

If you want sternguard veterans 10 would cost you £60.

Vanguards Veterans would cost you £50

Death Company, Assault squad, sanguinary guard, devastators, £41 for 10.

I'm well aware of the pricing disparity, I play every game that ever gets mentioned in these threads, I'm pretty hip to the pricing of the games, the reason why I'm defending that posters comparison is because on the basic level it's just a box of 10 guys vs a box of 10 guys. Which is going to get into the crux of the Warmachine is cheaper than 40k argument that everyone that hasn't been in these threads more than once (or choose to ignore it) below.

Which as I said its nonsense, you can pick certain units from any game to make a point about pricing either way, but I can get started in warmachine -with models- for less than the rules for my blood angels.

I got started in Infinity for exactly £27, a panoceania starter box, enough models for decent games and free rules.

I spent £45 just to update the rules for a game I've been playing since second edition. I love 40K, I have huge numbers of models, a forgeworld Baneblade, I've spent fortunes with them. But their games are simply a lot more expensive to play than anything else out there. Its churlish to pretend otherwise.

That's because 40k and Warmachine are two different scales. Warmachine is a skirmish sized game, it features a single general and their retinue vs another general and their retinue, there are no transports, no columns of tanks. 40k likes to market itself as an army sized game, and so to put a full sized army of Warmachine and Hordes on the board takes significantly less models (and by extension less money) than it does to put out a full sized 40k army. And here is the argument that everyone makes that 40k is more expensive than Warmachine. But on a model by model basis, it's really not more expensive, the reason why it's more expensive is because 40k tries to be a mass army battle in the skirmish scale. You are putting 40+ models on the table including vehicles, flyers, massive monsters, etc... But on a model by model base both Privateer Press and Games Workshop's models are priced roughly the same. Once you get past that, you begin to realize that the game sizes are what makes 40k expensive. As someone said, I believe in this thread, that the Red Shirts at GW will sell the game as being cheap because you can just play small 200-500 point games, but no one wants to play those. It's like playing with just the Warmachine Starter boxes. Yes, you have a full, legal army, but the average player players at 35-50 points because those are what the average game sizes are and that's what everyone else plays. And I should know, I have just as much money dumped into Warmachine/Hordes as I do into 40k, and guess what I have roughly the same number of models between the two of them...

NoggintheNog wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
It's not really cherry picking... Look at a similarly sized box for Warmachine (say Khador Winter Guard for the makings of the WGDS). It's a 10 model box for 50 bucks. The reductors may be an elite unit you can only have one of in your army, but ten 30mm based models from PP are generally 50USD for the box. 10 Space Marines are 40. It's not that big of a different, but you far more than just those 40 dollar space marines to make a 40k army.

Of course its cherry picking, because 10 space marines are only cheaper in one specific circumstance, a tactical squad.

If you want sternguard veterans 10 would cost you £60.

Vanguards Veterans would cost you £50

Death Company, Assault squad, sanguinary guard, devastators, £41 for 10.

Which as I said its nonsense, you can pick certain units from any game to make a point about pricing either way, but I can get started in warmachine -with models- for less than the rules for my blood angels.

I got started in Infinity for exactly £27, a panoceania starter box, enough models for decent games and free rules.

I spent £45 just to update the rules for a game I've been playing since second edition. I love 40K, I have huge numbers of models, a forgeworld Baneblade, I've spent fortunes with them. But their games are simply a lot more expensive to play than anything else out there. Its churlish to pretend otherwise.

Well my thinking is being a painter/modeller first and a gamer second then there's not a lot in the prices. As I have stated before I don't care what the sculpt medium is as long as it's a nice mini. So from what I can read between the lines here is it's not the fact that GW minis are expensive when compared to other companies that just doesn't hold much... It's the fact that you need many more of them to make your games worthwhile.

 Alfndrate wrote:
It's not really cherry picking... Look at a similarly sized box for Warmachine (say Khador Winter Guard for the makings of the WGDS). It's a 10 model box for 50 bucks. The reductors may be an elite unit you can only have one of in your army, but ten 30mm based models from PP are generally 50USD for the box. 10 Space Marines are 40. It's not that big of a different, but you far more than just those 40 dollar space marines to make a 40k army.

The Winter Guard box has 13 models in it, just FYI.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 Alfndrate wrote:
It's not really cherry picking... Look at a similarly sized box for Warmachine (say Khador Winter Guard for the makings of the WGDS). It's a 10 model box for 50 bucks. The reductors may be an elite unit you can only have one of in your army, but ten 30mm based models from PP are generally 50USD for the box. 10 Space Marines are 40. It's not that big of a different, but you far more than just those 40 dollar space marines to make a 40k army.

The Winter Guard box has 13 models in it, just FYI.

Thanks for reading! I did correct myself later when I said (in the same post even!)

Alfndrate wrote:Although I was looking at the 10 man Rifleman squad which is 50 dollars, the 10 man Winter Guard & Rocket Troopers is 13 models for 50 bucks (mah bad)

 Flippa wrote:


Well my thinking is being a painter/modeller first and a gamer second then there's not a lot in the prices. As I have stated before I don't care what the sculpt medium is as long as it's a nice mini. So from what I can read between the lines here is it's not the fact that GW minis are expensive when compared to other companies that just doesn't hold much... It's the fact that you need many more of them to make your games worthwhile.

GW's mini's, on an individual basis are more expensive than mini's from most other companies like for like, with the exception of Privateer Press where the prices are on par (or worse in the UK).

You can get historic/fantasy/sci-fi mini's from other Nottingham companies for less than GW's, though they might lack some of the visual impact of the bigger GW kits.

PP are bloody expensive, but you get better rules and more utility out of your pieces because of the way things are organised. But the models are bloody pricey and you get less variation in worse materials than with GW.

Mantic started well but I'm still waiting for them to hit their potential. Mierce have some great stuff but don't do anything "small".

To be honest, the real value these days is in Historical plastics.

What prevents me from buying GW most of the time these days is the OTT style of the miniatures. I prefer something a bit more understated.

 Da Boss wrote:
To be honest, the real value these days is in Historical plastics.

Absolutely 100% correct! I never thought I'd get into historicals but the deals are too good and the games are too fun not to.

 azreal13 wrote:
Lol!

Like clockwork, another poster starts a thread about the insanity that is GW pricing!

Why do you need to go dragging me into this?


Sorry, I saw the opportunity for a bad joke and had to take it. I'll go put on the hat of shame now.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Lol!

Like clockwork, another poster starts a thread about the insanity that is GW pricing!

Why do you need to go dragging me into this?


Sorry, I saw the opportunity for a bad joke and had to take it. I'll go put on the hat of shame now.

Booo!
Hiss!
(Buy him a drink!)

The Auld Grump

This 1st post of mine should be a memorable one, considering its in a "GW Prices Are So High!" thread, and considering the standard reply of "post less" will be said below. I believe the first repliers owe the OP an apology.

A few GW products were on my X-Mas List as gift ideas for myself and others. After being prompted by an e-mail flyer to "Check out the holiday deals", I did go, only to find the price of everything has been raised a good deal.

Most battalion boxes up an additional $50-$80. Island of Blood was raised 65% from $100 to $165. Hell the core rulebook is up a good 100% to $124.

I'd like to not have to rant, rave, bitch and moan, so I'll come to the finale: Not a single GW product is on my List. I'd wish GW best of luck on selling product, but I reckon they should learn basic economics.

SuperHappyTime wrote:
This 1st post of mine should be a memorable one, considering its in a "GW Prices Are So High!" thread, and considering the standard reply of "post less" will be said below. I believe the first repliers owe the OP an apology.

A few GW products were on my X-Mas List as gift ideas for myself and others. After being prompted by an e-mail flyer to "Check out the holiday deals", I did go, only to find the price of everything has been raised a good deal.

Most battalion boxes up an additional $50-$80. Island of Blood was raised 65% from $100 to $165. Hell the core rulebook is up a good 100% to $124.

I'd like to not have to rant, rave, bitch and moan, so I'll come to the finale: Not a single GW product is on my List. I'd wish GW best of luck on selling product, but I reckon they should learn basic economics.

Alright, everybody: reset those clocks!

SuperHappyTime wrote:
This 1st post of mine should be a memorable one, considering its in a "GW Prices Are So High!" thread, and considering the standard reply of "post less" will be said below. I believe the first repliers owe the OP an apology.

A few GW products were on my X-Mas List as gift ideas for myself and others. After being prompted by an e-mail flyer to "Check out the holiday deals", I did go, only to find the price of everything has been raised a good deal.

Most battalion boxes up an additional $50-$80. Island of Blood was raised 65% from $100 to $165. Hell the core rulebook is up a good 100% to $124.

I'd like to not have to rant, rave, bitch and moan, so I'll come to the finale: Not a single GW product is on my List. I'd wish GW best of luck on selling product, but I reckon they should learn basic economics.

Go back, look at the bottom of the page, and change the little flag back to US. You're looking at Australian prices.

Don't worry, plenty of first time posters have done this. You won't get too hard a time over it.

Maybe.

And the price difference is due to minimum wage.

Because even homeless people drive Bentleys because we're all super rich from the mining boom. They just cant afford our super expensive houses (partially true).

Strange my wargames factory shock troopers and/or WWII Russians have more troops and are cheaper, off course they are not made by Bugatti that is GW

I'd advise people who find GW prices to be too expensive to not buy GW products. Until that occurs, you're just the addict telling his drug dealer that crack's too expensive.

Their prices are whatever they think they can get you to pay for them. As long as the people with controlling interests are happy, they don't care that you're not.

I'm not going to post much, as i feel it's a useless debate, and this isn;t the right place for it. However, i dug up my collectors guide from 2003ish and was shocked.

This is the latest price of 10 cadian shock troops.



This was from my collectors guide, the price of 20 models, that are exactly the same.



How is that physically possible?

Hi DanFST.
The original price was £15 for 20 models!

That is a 240% price increase . But apparently that is in line with inflation according to some . (Which was appx 50% over the same period.)

However, it IS appx in line with the pay increase Mr Kirby awarded himself over the same period though!

 DanFST wrote:
I
How is that physically possible?

Because people pay it, as Seaward said the best way to make GW reduce their prices is to simply stop buying anything from GW. This is exactly what I have done for years, Ebay or other manufacturers have all you need and in terms of rules GW games are well below average anyway so you can have a full and varied wargaming experience without paying GW a penny.

The best thing is that Cadians would have long since paid off their design costs so any money that they make now will be almost all 'profit'.

 Seaward wrote:
I'd advise people who find GW prices to be too expensive to not buy GW products. Until that occurs, you're just the addict telling his drug dealer that crack's too expensive.

Their prices are whatever they think they can get you to pay for them. As long as the people with controlling interests are happy, they don't care that you're not.

You say that as if you think GW sales are raising, or at least staying steady, and those of us that are complaining are still buying GW stuff anyway.
I'm sure there are a few people on here to whine and moan over prices then go buy 3 riptides but GW sales are plumeting. We are voting with our wallets, we are saying enough is enough and GWs response has been to raise prices again to milk even more out of those who haven't quite yet.

Lanrak wrote:
Hi DanFST.
The original price was £15 for 20 models!

That is a 240% price increase . But apparently that is in line with inflation according to some . (Which was appx 50% over the same period.)

However, it IS appx in line with the pay increase Mr Kirby awarded himself over the same period though!

It is a hefty price increase. But bear in mind that inflation figures are fiddled, in order to keep benefits and pensions low, and that inflation of discretionary items is much higher. The price of coffee and wine, two items definitely more important than GW models, has more than doubled in the last six years.

Lanrak wrote:
Hi DanFST.
The original price was £15 for 20 models!

That is a 240% price increase . But apparently that is in line with inflation according to some . (Which was appx 50% over the same period.)

However, it IS appx in line with the pay increase Mr Kirby awarded himself over the same period though!

I like it when they cut the box in half and several GW staff were trying to convince me they'd dropped in price as they were now £12...

 jonolikespie wrote:
You say that as if you think GW sales are raising, or at least staying steady, and those of us that are complaining are still buying GW stuff anyway.

Because I see quite a few people bitching about GW pricing schemes in one thread and talking about how they're going to paint their latest GW acquisition in another.

I'm sure there are a few people on here to whine and moan over prices then go buy 3 riptides but GW sales are plumeting.

How's their profitability?

We are voting with our wallets, we are saying enough is enough and GWs response has been to raise prices again to milk even more out of those who haven't quite yet.

Because their goal isn't to provide you with the best value for your money, it's to stay profitable. They've chosen to lower overhead and increase their margins. It's not necessarily a bad way to go as long as they've got a core audience, which they do.

Not that I particularly have a horse in the are GW prices extortionate race, but seeing DanFST's avatar made me go and look up the West Ham Season Ticket prices for this year vs 2003. (Yes I'm a numbers geek)

http://www.whufc.com/articles/20130418/201314-season-tickets-on-sale-now_2236884_3147937

http://www.whufc.com/articles/20030515/match-ticket-prices-announced_2236884_1135660

Roughly a 40 - 45% rise for the season ticket vs a 167% rise for the Imperial Guard.

I wonder if model designers' pay has risen in line with footballers? Interestingly, in that 10 year period, West Ham have gone from the first division to the Premier League, while Games Workshop .... (fill in the rest yourselves according to taste)

 Seaward wrote:

How's their profitability?

Currently fine, they have been in profit for a good few years but that's only a short term marker. Much more significant is their revenues which have stayed essentially flat for years, despite annual above inflation price rises so in other words they are losing sales year on year. That is unsustainable as a tipping point will eventually be reached.

 DanFST wrote:
I'm not going to post much, as I feel it's a useless debate, and this isn't the right place for it. However, I dug up my collectors guide from 2003ish and was shocked.

This is the latest price of 10 Cadian shock troops.



This was from my collectors guide, the price of 20 models, that are exactly the same.



How is that physically possible?

I noticed that too ... and I seriously thought, that must be a misprint in the collector's guide... 20 GW minis for almost the cost of ten of the same, today? Never!

Is that exclusively their sales revenue, or their revenues across the board? My impression is that their non-model stuff - especially IP licensing - is only getting bigger.

IIRC its their total revenues (IP licensing is a relatively new phenomenon for GW) but its been a while since I looked into it. There will be a few in depth threads on here somewhere though, usually the threads that discuss their latest financial reports.

I'd be surprised if that was the case, but I anything's possible. If so, it's even less incentive to revert back to pricing the way it was a decade ago.

 Seaward wrote:
If so, it's even less incentive to revert back to pricing the way it was a decade ago.

True enough although their current pricing strategy is undoubtedly a significant part of the problem.

Yeah its a very short term strategy to decide that the best way to regain the money you lost through customers deciding the price is to high is to raise the cost for those who are still your customers.

If the trend was already headed in that direction, might as well maximize revenue while figuring out other streams.

 Palindrome wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
If so, it's even less incentive to revert back to pricing the way it was a decade ago.

True enough although their current pricing strategy is undoubtedly a significant part of the problem.

That's definitely a big part of it but, and I say this as someone who lives in Australia*, I don't think pricing is their biggest problem.
Their biggest problem is that they are a toy company. They believe that they are selling toys to kids for them to paint up and they maybe play a game or two before collecting more models from a new army.
They have no interest in growing the hobby, no interest in creating a community, they simply want to sell collectibles to children.
Mantic, PP, Spartan Games and Corvus Belli (just to name a few) are all trying to build a community around their games and I do believe every one of them are growing rapidly.

I think if GW simply kept prices how they are now and stopped raising them it would help, but not nearly as much as if they started interacting with their fanbase. Drop the 1 man store approach, bring games back to games day, put real content in White Dwarf that people who have been in the hobby more than a year can learn things from and actually acknowledge that a significant proportion of their customers are not 12 years old. If they made themselves a company people actually wanted to buy from it would go a long way towards putting them back on the right path.
*edit* I can't believe I forgot this one but make a professional looking rule set, with proofreaders and plasterers.


*We get the absolute worst end of the stick from GW here, meaning other companies with much nicer resin models are only on par with GW when it comes to price. This cost me the same as this would have down here.

I like the dice and the Blood for the Blood God paint! Ordered!!!!

If I didn't already own the LE Chaos Daemon codex, I would have picked that bundle up. Still tempted, but no. THAT money is for Forge World...

 jonolikespie wrote:

I think if GW simply kept prices how they are now and stopped raising them it would help, but not nearly as much as if they started interacting with their fanbase. Drop the 1 man store approach, bring games back to games day, put real content in White Dwarf that people who have been in the hobby more than a year can learn things from and actually acknowledge that a significant proportion of their customers are not 12 years old. If they made themselves a company people actually wanted to buy from it would go a long way towards putting them back on the right path.

That's a good way of putting it. A big part of why I'm a PP fanboy is the attitude that comes across from them, in their articles, website stuff and their business approach, that I feel like they want me to enjoy their game and are actively trying to increase my enjoyment, as well as selling me stuff. They release official tournament rules, try to minimise rules arguments by making them clear, strongly encourage and officially support local groups, work with fansites to preview their new models and rules, etc.

With GW, I feel more like they want only to sell me stuff and aren't especially bothered whether I have fun with it. The company is less and less involved with the community and that hurts both of them.

 Seaward wrote:

Because I see quite a few people bitching about GW pricing schemes in one thread and talking about how they're going to paint their latest GW acquisition in another.

Guilty as charged i bought the new plastic space marine tactical and vanguard? (those shooty veterans) and that is my sole GW purchase this year, the're making a bundle out of me!

10~20 years ago i spend most of my "allowance" on GW stuff every month.

I've resolved to finish my armies and then cease all purchases of new product direct from GW. I may still get cheap 2nd hand models, like Drop Pods, Rhinos etc (and in fact I'm going to see what I can pick up 2nd hand at Smoggycon this weekend).

. I will NEVER start a new GW army for any system, unless I can use cheaper non GW models (Victoria Miniatures, Wargames Factory etc).

For my Raven Guard I have a very clear picture of what I want to complete my army (I estimate that it'll be around 4000pts when I'm finished).

A Vanguard Veteran squad, magnetised for versatility.
A converted and magnetised Captain (using the Korvydae I already have as a base).
A Stormtalon.
A Land Speeder Storm.
One more Rhino/Razorback (2nd hand?)
More Drop Pods (2nd hand).
One Tactical Squad (2nd hand).

Theres been loads of stuff for the Hobbit that I'd like (Azog, hunter orcs, fell wargs, Erebor Dwarves) but the prices are so obscene that I've not bothered with the Hobbit. Nobody plays SBG at my club so I've not bothered with the £50 rulebook (I got my ORB for just £30).

In future, I'll just convert and proxy historical models as Gondor, Rohan and Harad. I prefer historicals like Gripping Beast anyway.

Somehow after looking through it, I thought the whole thing was sort of "meh" this year.

Well I was just looking at some of the new stuff for this christmas season and there is some savings there and a few good deals here and there.

The Tau pack with 9 xv88 and 1 riptide is kind of ridiculous though who would want that many xv88 suits haha.
On the other hand the Eldar Ghost Warriors package looks like an awesome deal!
3 boxes of wraith guard $180 individually
1 wraithknight $140
2 Wraithlords $111
So thats a total of $431 if you buy individually and its $325 in the package thats a $100 saving in Canada. Even in Australia its $438 individually and $330 in the package which will make them happy I am sure

From what I gather you can just get a spirtseer/farseer and thats a solid 1000 point army.

Thats the package I like the best and I think that this package is a step in the right direction price wise/savings wise!
I might just pick this up in the states when I go down there since the price is $270 there so again a good deal!

I am also pretty much out when it comes to GW. I have DA i want to paint up and may pick up stuff second hand down the line in order to complete it but beyond that I won't buy from them again.