Writing has been on the wall for some time.
Several battalions and battleforces discontinued, no new ones for a while. Instead some bigger and more or less double that expensive boxes like the SM Strikeforce ($225.00) or the Dark Elf Warhost of Naggaroth ($170.00), which are also made compulsory for the most dedicated GW stockists (module 4).

Here the current rumour posted on faeit212:

Anonymous source over at Faeit212 wrote:a memo received from HQ: no more battalions or battle forces. Stores are not restocking them, nor are they re-releasing with army revamps as and when they come.

Consider, the new Dark Elves release didn't come with a battallion, and nor did the Space Marines. All that's going to be coming out now are the big, big megaforce sort of things that come with a free character, or something.

The megaforce thing with the free character seems to be more a historical reference, not the actual name or content.

I guess GW don't want new players having an easy way to expand their armies.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I guess GW don't want new players having an easy way to expand their armies.

The easy way is to tick the box for everything your heart desires in this free gift guide, and let Mummy and Daddy buy it for you!

Makes sense I don't see why they're necessary when the webstore has all those one-click bundles, just a waste of shelf space.

And they were a bundle of models sold at a discount so GW was deliberately losing money for their shareholders every time they sold one.

You can't have that sort of thing going on and still expect to maximize quarterly dividend yield.

I think the Strikeforce is more appealing when it comes to starting a new army. £105 at Dark Sphere and it looks like what, 800 points or so? Not bad.

The removal of choice is always bad though, so something of a bummer for new players who are unsure about getting involved, especially since DV limits your power armour choices to the rather bland DA book

 scarletsquig wrote:
Makes sense I don't see why they're necessary when the webstore has all those one-click bundles, just a waste of shelf space.

And they were a bundle of models sold at a discount so GW was deliberately losing money for their shareholders every time they sold one.

You can't have that sort of thing going on and still expect to maximize quarterly dividend yield.

On the off chance that isn't sarcastic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader

If they are replacing battleforces with strikeforces that is fine by me. The strikeforces tended to be a better deal anyway.

Can't help thinking it was a self fulfilling prophecy though. They stopped releasing battleforces when the army was first released, instead releasing them several months later after everyone had already bought everything they wanted and the hype had gone. Then they wondered why they weren't selling as much as before?

I really hope this isn't going to happen.

The easiest way to start a new army is a starter box, the codex and a blister pack character model. Job done.
Justifying a 3 item purchase to yourself/spouse/parent is much easier than the character, codex, couple of troop box sets, transport and something else to get to the same amount of figures.
I don't see how this can be anything but bad?

Battalions lose GW profit margin but gain them sales. Net gain.

We got two discount bundles with the space marine release, but they didn't fit the "battleforce" template in that they were bigger. For me, I'm happy enough if they continue in that direction, as I always liked the bigger bundles, but yeah. Sucks for newbies. Courting newbies really doesn't seem to be in GW's MO right now.

They may be switching focus to time-limited boxed sets like Storm Wing and Ghost Warriors. GW have developed a serious love of limited-edition products lately, likely because it helps them plan production/stock in a much easier fashion and the time limit helps to drive sales.

I think we'll see more theme sets like this, designed to push items that may have excess stock. The Ghost Warriors set is an ideal example, as I can't imagine they've sold too many Wraithlords this year in comparison to the newer wraith kits.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Makes sense I don't see why they're necessary when the webstore has all those one-click bundles, just a waste of shelf space.

Not everyone uses the web store, especially not new players who are children.

 scarletsquig wrote:
And they were a bundle of models sold at a discount so GW was deliberately losing money for their shareholders every time they sold one.

That's a remarkably simplistic way of looking at it. The shareholders have nothing to do with it.

 Bull0 wrote:
Courting newbies really doesn't seem to be in GW's MO right now.

That's their only MO.

Sell someone a starter kit, get 'em for 1 Birthday and 1 Christmas, and then they don't care. Battle Forces are perfect for that.

I dunno, they seem to be in the "Sell veterans overpriced limited editions" business these days, while, as has been pointed out, cutting back on the battleforces. That said, they've gotten free and easy with licensing the IP for computer games and such lately, that's got to bring in a few kids.

You do have a point though. Particularly in the stores, the KPIs are intro games, starter set sales, rulebook sales.

 scarletsquig wrote:

Top sarcasm.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Bull0 wrote:
Courting newbies really doesn't seem to be in GW's MO right now.

That's their only MO.

Sell someone a starter kit, get 'em for 1 Birthday and 1 Christmas, and then they don't care. Battle Forces are perfect for that.

So does that mean "feth everyone!" is GW's new official policy?

No more battleforces? Time to make more supplements for people to throw away their money on..

 Kroothawk wrote:
Writing has been on the wall for some time.
Several battalions and battleforces discontinued, no new ones for a while. Instead some bigger and more or less double that expensive boxes like the SM Strikeforce ($225.00) or the Dark Elf Warhost of Naggaroth ($170.00), which are also made compulsory for the most dedicated GW stockists (module 4).

Here the current rumour posted on faeit212:

Anonymous source over at Faeit212 wrote:a memo received from HQ: no more battalions or battle forces. Stores are not restocking them, nor are they re-releasing with army revamps as and when they come.

Consider, the new Dark Elves release didn't come with a battallion, and nor did the Space Marines. All that's going to be coming out now are the big, big megaforce sort of things that come with a free character, or something.

The megaforce thing with the free character seems to be more a historical reference, not the actual name or content.

Those were army boxes not megaforces. They included the army book within the box and in the case of Fantasy there was also a Battle Standard Bearer character and the boxes were pretty expensive.

The Strike Force at $225 is $320 worth of product--and what's more, it ticks most of the requirements for starting an army.
The Warhost of Naggaroth is $212.50 worth of product at $170--and again, it ticks most of the checklist for actually starting an army.

Personally I would have liked to see a battalion but I'm not too fussed by the addition of the bigger boxes.

so...the batallions are being replaced by things that are almost identical to batallions, only bigger and with a larger saving?

The negative response to this doesn't surprise me in the least. Gw could double the size of tactical squads for the same price and we'd still get the exact same replies - gw hates money, gw are going under, and gw don't care a damn about newcomers/vets.

Personally i couldn't give a damn since the ig one was useless anyway. Back when it had russes it was worth something, but who wants a sentinal?

"Larger saving", gak.

Larger savings don't matter to people who don't want to shell out that kind of money in one go. Some people want smaller bundles, you know, for less money.

You're missing the point. It's a larger saving, but you're being asked to spend twice as much in one go. That's off-putting to newer customers, who by and large were already put off by the prices in the first place. I still remember when I bought my first Tau battleforce, standing around in the store for like half an hour just mulling it over and asking myself "Do I really want to spend $100 today on toys?", and the old Tau battleforce was only $90 and actually considered a good deal on top of that. Luckily for me I got a 10% discount to help it sting less...to this day I'm still not sure why, but I appreciated it.

And the larger saving is only worth it if you actually want everything in the box. Like you said, "Who wants a sentinel?" It doesn't matter if there's lots of stuff and a big discount if you're not going to use half the box because it's currently crap, or has been crap for several editions and GW can't sell the models any other way.

Basically te individual box prices have risen to be so close to the original £50-70 price point of battle forces that it becomes impossible to offer a multi kit box at that price point. This is why you are now starting to see the new £100+ bundles. It's a consequence of rising prices, so essentially the new £100+ boxes are the replacement battleforces/battalions.

I think that was when Battleforces went up to £60 from £50. Or £80 from £60, or whatever the most recent gouge was :(

The loss of battle forces is a blow, as they were for over a decade a good way to build up an army with solid units, and they generally had a pretty good discount. Some were better than others (Tau, Ogres, and Wolves had amazing boxes back in the day).

It's not a surprise, and the mega deals will offer some of the same function, but nothing could bootstrap a new army like the Battle forces. I think staying under $100 was a good thing for new players.

I am a harsh critic of GW. However, I do not see this as bad. The main issue for vets is the discount. Given that the larger boxes are still discounted at a good rate, I do not see any issue.

For a beginner, a one box purchase that puts you well on your way to having an army is very good. Many kids parents bought them a battalion and a character, but stopped short of buying a proper army. Thus, they could not truly get into the game. This way, the initial purchase will give them something much closer to a fieldable force.

 fishy bob wrote:
"Larger saving", gak.

Larger savings don't matter to people who don't want to shell out that kind of money in one go. Some people want smaller bundles, you know, for less money.

when the average box costs around £30, i think there's a limit to how big the savings can be in a box only twice that amount.

Plus most of the batalions weren't even legal forces, and if they were then they sucked.

 Polonius wrote:
The loss of battle forces is a blow, as they were for over a decade a good way to build up an army with solid units, and they generally had a pretty good discount. Some were better than others (Tau, Ogres, and Wolves had amazing boxes back in the day).

It's not a surprise, and the mega deals will offer some of the same function, but nothing could bootstrap a new army like the Battle forces. I think staying under $100 was a good thing for new players.

I agree with most of what you're saying, but a big thing is exactly what you mention:
Some were better than others.

If the Warhost is the "new standard", I look forward to a High Elf set--especially if they get over their apparent fear of keeping the Lothern Sea Guard frames as direct only.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 spaceelf wrote:
I am a harsh critic of GW. However, I do not see this as bad. The main issue for vets is the discount. Given that the larger boxes are still discounted at a good rate, I do not see any issue.

For a beginner, a one box purchase that puts you well on your way to having an army is very good. Many kids parents bought them a battalion and a character, but stopped short of buying a proper army. Thus, they could not truly get into the game. This way, the initial purchase will give them something much closer to a fieldable force.

The Warhost of Naggaroth, it's worth mentioning, gives you a potential three hero option box.

The Fleetmaster(obvious choice as he gets billed as "the leader"), a High Beastmaster(part of the Scourgerunner Chariot), or a Master/Dreadlord(part of the Cold One Chariot).
With a bit of fiddling you can have a Fleetmaster(or a generic Master/Dreadlord with a Sea Dragon Cloak), a High Beastmaster and his Scourgerunner Chariot(High Beastmasters must be mounted on either a Manticore or a Chariot sadly), and a pair of Masters/Dreadlords on foot(the crew from the Cold One Chariot are multipart with the bodies being very clearly "Cold One" and "Scourgerunner").

Add to it the 20 Corsairs, 5 Cold One Knights, and 20 Warriors(player's choice of armaments) you have a pretty good start for a Dark Elf force with a good amount of options.

jonolikespie wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Makes sense I don't see why they're necessary when the webstore has all those one-click bundles, just a waste of shelf space.

And they were a bundle of models sold at a discount so GW was deliberately losing money for their shareholders every time they sold one.

You can't have that sort of thing going on and still expect to maximize quarterly dividend yield.

On the off chance that isn't sarcastic:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_leader

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Makes sense I don't see why they're necessary when the webstore has all those one-click bundles, just a waste of shelf space.

Not everyone uses the web store, especially not new players who are children.

 scarletsquig wrote:
And they were a bundle of models sold at a discount so GW was deliberately losing money for their shareholders every time they sold one.

That's a remarkably simplistic way of looking at it. The shareholders have nothing to do with it.

Hey, where is your sarcasm detector.

xruslanx wrote:so...the batallions are being replaced by things that are almost identical to batallions, only bigger and with a larger saving?

GW could make a "buy 15 Broadsides and get 2 for free" starter bundles ... and beginners would still complain about the 1000$ price tag

Point is, that GW is systematically destroying all incentives to start the game.

If the Strikeforces are in a similar setup to the previous two Christmases, they should be giving around a 30% discount, plus you can often find stores that make a 10, 20 or 25% discount doable. That's a pretty decent chunk off GW's normal cost. It's actually a decision I don't think is too bad. And at that cost, the discount can be better than "look, a free rhino!" It's a good mix of models. I promised I'd compliment when they make good decisions. I think this is one, even if the cost is a bit higher. Hell, we all know I support Mantic's choices and they do big boxes like this too that sell at $180-250. Why would I knock GW if Mantic does the same? Both offer fair discounts at that bulk purchase (in one box).

The Strikeforce is not a "splash release" item, nor is the Warhost apparently.

Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.
But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.
Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only rich fanatics are supported, not children, teens or casual gamers.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.
But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.
Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only rich fanatics are supported, not children, teens or casual gamers.

Oh please. Enough of this damn nonsense.

Children, teens and casual gamers will continue to buy individual boxes of Scouts or Ork Boyz or Guardsmen or whatever here and there. It's what I always did when I was a kid, and I stayed in the hobby just fine. I'd have dreamed of being given/being able to afford a whole battleforce. Yeah, battleforces are good when you're starting out, but they're not the be-all and end-all you're making them out to be. Dial back the drama for once

Maybe they're removing all 30 or so battleforces/ battalions from the shelves to clear space for all the new specialist games they're going to be relaunching in hard plastic?

If it weren't for the battleforces I don't think my parents would have bought me warhammer all those years ago. Some parents will buy their kids whatever they want regardless of cost. However, most can't afford to do this even if they wanted to and will need bundles like the battleforces to help them out.

A friend of mine was interested in jumping into 40k a few months ago. He asked me how much it would cost to get a decent sized army and basic supplies. Sadly I informed him it would cost roughly $500 for a decent 1000 pt army, the required books and basic supplies. That is quite a steep barrier to entry.

My cousin plays MTG and since I know the rules from years ago, he invited me over for a booster draft. I paid $10 for 15 lands of each colour and $10-20 for 3-6 packs depending on the type of draft we do. I forgot how cheap most other game systems are. I know miniatures are much more expensive than cards.... but they still serve the same purpose.

I sure hope GW sticks with battleforces or if they are moving to larger bundles, then at least maintain a decent savings.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Maybe they're removing all 30 or so battleforces/ battalions from the shelves to clear space for all the new specialist games they're going to be relaunching in hard plastic?

Okay, people. Scarletsquig is clearly delusional and possibly dangerous. I think it we're going to have to do an intervention. Get the rope and blankets ready, I'll grab the chloroform.

 Breotan wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Maybe they're removing all 30 or so battleforces/ battalions from the shelves to clear space for all the new specialist games they're going to be relaunching in hard plastic?

Okay, people. Scarletsquig is clearly delusional and possibly dangerous. I think it we're going to have to do an intervention. Get the rope and blankets ready, I'll grab the chloroform.

It's OK, Scarletsquig is British and therefore not mad, just eccentric. Very eccentric in this case.

 Captain Blood wrote:

 Breotan wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Maybe they're removing all 30 or so battleforces/ battalions from the shelves to clear space for all the new specialist games they're going to be relaunching in hard plastic?

Okay, people. Scarletsquig is clearly delusional and possibly dangerous. I think it we're going to have to do an intervention. Get the rope and blankets ready, I'll grab the chloroform.

It's OK, Scarletsquig is British and therefore not mad, just eccentric. Very eccentric in this case.

No, I think Breotan is right. We may have to put him down. Hold still, Squiggy, this'll only take a minute...

In honesty the battle forces went up in price, and didn't offer anything more. If the newer larger bundles offer more, that also means (hopefully) more off in there as added bonuses for a large purchase.

I think a 200$ kit that gave you an effective 800-1200pts is worth it. As it is most players would have to purchase two battle forces to have an even remotely effective fighting force when joining in the hobby (also known as 230$).

As for new fresh skin walking into the game a comparison to consoles for most parents would be their analytical process (assuming most parents share a similar thought process).

If they could afford the Xbox 1 (Hal 9000) or the Ps4 (Tron) they would likely look at the mega force as a half off deal on their xmas spending, adding more gifts under the tree for the young guy.

More importantly if their is anything I know about this hobby it is about the social interaction, many of us gamers are great guys to meet and hang out with (DakkaDakka is an amazing community) I would also weigh this factor as a parent when purchasing these gifts.

The argument summarized:
It costs $$ <= consoles
Pros
It provides skill sets like painting, crafting, reading (we know how hard it is to get kids to read) and a direct social environment (which is perhaps the most worth while investment).
Cons
It could be a one hit wonder. And is slightly hazardous (how many of us have scars?)

Again this is from a parenting perspective. Thier is always the fiscal controversy of buying expensive plastic that doesn't contain a computer in it, but it is important to remember my axiom. If they could afford the console they could afford the new bundle.

Last tidbit, how many parents buy little Timmy just a battle force anyways when he wants some plastic dudes? I am sure he gets an extra dreadnought or tank in there, and that already puts them closer to the large bundle anyways.

If gw makes these large bundles worth while to purchase, then I don't see this as a negative at all.

 gossipmeng wrote:
If it weren't for the battleforces I don't think my parents would have bought me warhammer all those years ago. Some parents will buy their kids whatever they want regardless of cost. However, most can't afford to do this even if they wanted to and will need bundles like the battleforces to help them out.

A friend of mine was interested in jumping into 40k a few months ago. He asked me how much it would cost to get a decent sized army and basic supplies. Sadly I informed him it would cost roughly $500 for a decent 1000 pt army, the required books and basic supplies. That is quite a steep barrier to entry.

I think the bigger boxes will end up being a better deal actually. When you get battleforces like Dark Angels and Imperial Guard that give you a squad, they don't help you start an army really. With the Space Marine Strikeforce, you can get a 1250 army with it by maxing upgrades, which isn't ideal but gets you started, for $225, even cheaper if you have a retailer near you that offers discounts. Throw in the small rule book and codex and you're at $332.50. My local shop does 25% discounts on list price, which would put that deal down to $249.38, which is a steal for how much you get. Throw in a couple dollars for hobby knife, glue, and sprue cutters and you're on your way to a grey army! The paint supplies will start adding up, but not cover the 170-250$ price increase to $500 for a starter army.

Granted, all that works only if you're going for a Space Marine army. Tau and Eldar have similar releases out right now. Tau with max upgrades looks to be just over 1000 points, throw in a HQ and two Firewarrior teams and you're set. Higher price than the Space Marines at $283.88 with a 25% discount, this is for the big box, two boxes of fire warriors, and an Ethereal, which probably isn't an optimized list. Eldar requires a HQ Farseer, I believe, to be able to run it at over 1000points without upgrades. That puts it a $290 retail and $217.50 discount. Again, it will be higher than the Space Marine due to higher initial cost, but closer than Tau because you get troop choices.

Hopefully we see more of these deals in the future. I would love to see one for Imperial Guard, because I want to start up a force, but their into price is way too high due to the battleforce giving you so little and the army requiring so much.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.
But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.
Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only rich fanatics are supported, not children, teens or casual gamers.

In the UK teens are regularly bought hundreds of pounds worth of stuff at birthdays and christmas by their parents, and thats not even the rich ones, I should not imagine it being that different elsewhere.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.
But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.
Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only rich fanatics are supported, not children, teens or casual gamers.

Can we drop the hyperbole?

The existence of a $200 warhost does not preclude a parent/casual gamer/teen from buying one or two lower priced boxes (maybe a $40 bleaksword set or a $70 witch elf set?). The battalion boxes were priced lower and it's possible that GW felt they should make the jump from regiment sets to a larger box more considerable for the savings to kick in--but really, we don't know why they did it (other than to continue to make money, but they're a business...).

As a personal aside, I don't understand the vitriolic hate against GW. I don't like everything they do, but I recognize that they owe me absolutely nothing beyond the product they advertise.
To end my own post on a bit of hyperbolic sarcasm, is it this factor?.

I am happy for this to happen, going to be starting Nids when the codex comes out so will help with putting a force together. Fingers crossed they do a monster mash box as I am going full on big sci-fi dino

 gossipmeng wrote:
If it weren't for the battleforces I don't think my parents would have bought me warhammer all those years ago. Some parents will buy their kids whatever they want regardless of cost. However, most can't afford to do this even if they wanted to and will need bundles like the battleforces to help them out.

A friend of mine was interested in jumping into 40k a few months ago. He asked me how much it would cost to get a decent sized army and basic supplies. Sadly I informed him it would cost roughly $500 for a decent 1000 pt army, the required books and basic supplies. That is quite a steep barrier to entry.

My cousin plays MTG and since I know the rules from years ago, he invited me over for a booster draft. I paid $10 for 15 lands of each colour and $10-20 for 3-6 packs depending on the type of draft we do. I forgot how cheap most other game systems are. I know miniatures are much more expensive than cards.... but they still serve the same purpose.

I sure hope GW sticks with battleforces or if they are moving to larger bundles, then at least maintain a decent savings.

Misconception.. All hobbies are super expensive and MTG is no different. Type 2 players spend 600$ every 3 months to stay current :p However, MTG has a much LOWER entry point to be sure but you can play current 40k with models from 15 years ago (within reason) however there are basically only close to 5 cards legal in MTG today that were legal 15 years ago..(IE basic lands)

Pretty sure hobby in ancient greek means "That which people waste money on"

You can play WH40k with the stuff from the starter box. Split with a mate and it's £30 each. It's only if you want to get into competitive play, or starting a bespoke army, that it gets more expensive. This idea that the entry cost for 40k is £40 rulebook, £30 codex, £200 of models etc is absurd.

 Kirasu wrote:

Pretty sure hobby in ancient greek means "That which people waste money on"

Why did I not realise this earlier??

I got into 40k in 2001 by buying an army box. It was $200. I was in 9th grade and I got the money by mowing lawns for a month. I had used my birthday money to buy the starter set and the space marine codex a month before.

If kids want this stuff, they'll find a way to buy it. If I want this stuff, the same principle applies.

I don't know if I can accept the argument about the battalion box sets getting kids into the game.

Back when I started there were none of these and I still managed to start armies with Christmas and Birthday money. And spending a lot of time building an army was part of the fun, or so I thought.

Granted the hobby is expensive, but I think the largest increase in price in playing has been the creep in game size. When I started with 40k, 1000pts was the standard, now it's more like 2000, so you're going to be spending double no matter what old prices or new.

Granted it's pretty bad that the battalions and battle forces may go, but pretty much every one of them has something that you won't ever use in it. Once you factor that into it, does it really save you that much? I really don't know as it depends on your play style.

With these new bundles, they have me somewhat interested, and the Chaos Beastie one has me most interested as it is all stuff I don't have (besides Spawn that is). So with 4000pts of Warriors, I might get this because It's all stuff I don't have. I would not buy an equal savings kit which was loaded with stuff like warriors/marauders/dogs/knights because I already have enough of that.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Maybe they're removing all 30 or so battleforces/ battalions from the shelves to clear space for all the new specialist games they're going to be relaunching in hard plastic?

It's GW, not Mantic. You don't need to specify a type of plastic as they've only used the scale model industry standard for decades.

I'm thinking these strike forces and special boxes are a holiday only thing like the Megaforces were last year.

The Space Marine Strikeforce has been out since their codex released I believe, and it's not labeled as a limited release, which I believe they did on the Megaforces. The Tau and Eldar ones do say "While supplies last" however.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.
But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.
Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only Dedicated and not fairweather gamers will be supported, .

Fixed it.
I remember when I wanted to bet into Radio Controlled cars and planes, They where EXPENSIVE. like alot and it put me off, but I was not dedicated to it. I was not their audience.

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.

I would call BS on this, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Maybe they don't sell well where you are.

But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.

I'm impressed by this part. Do you actually understand young people nowadays? The Space Marine Strikeforce costs £140. How much does a console of any kind cost? How many of those are sold? Your assertion is complete BS.

Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only rich fanatics are supported, not children, teens or casual gamers.

Can we drop the hyberbolic vitriol? You really are getting on my nerves with the constant contempt you appear to show for this company.

 cormadepanda wrote:

It provides skill sets like painting, crafting, reading (we know how hard it is to get kids to read) and a direct social environment (which is perhaps the most worth while investment).
Cons
It could be a one hit wonder. And is slightly hazardous (how many of us have scars?)

Mental or Physical?
And you are missing one crucial thing here, If timmy asks for an Xbone, and the parents decide "This is cheaper, lets get him this" Timmy will grow up resenting his parents(For a bit), The parents will consider that, trust me.
foe me it is cheaper, (But after playing darksouls and borderlands 2, Video games are starting to capture my eye again) and for you it is. but for a parent buy for their kid......Well I personally think they think "If I spend X they will love me more"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 -Shrike- wrote:

But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.

I'm impressed by this part. Do you actually understand young people nowadays? The Space Marine Strikeforce costs £140. How much does a console of any kind cost? How many of those are sold? Your assertion is complete BS.

Its funny because i regularly get 200$ in just cash for christmas. Well i did before my dad passed away......now im getting an inheritance for christmas.

 Kirasu wrote:

Misconception.. All hobbies are super expensive and MTG is no different. Type 2 players spend 600$ every 3 months to stay current :p However, MTG has a much LOWER entry point to be sure but you can play current 40k with models from 15 years ago (within reason) however there are basically only close to 5 cards legal in MTG today that were legal 15 years ago..(IE basic lands)

Pretty sure hobby in ancient greek means "That which people waste money on"

Lol, that's pretty true. Hobbies are ways to pass time and spend money, nothing more.

The argument about how much (or little) other hobbies cost comes up all the time, and honeslty few people do the numbers properly. It's not about how you can feasibly enter the hobby, I think you shoudl compare costs for "full participation" in a hobby. Yes, you can play 40k with the DV plastics, or Magic with a single precon deck. But that's not gonna work for more than very small stakes games.

To really play 40k, meaning to enjoy most aspects of it and reliably get to play games, you need about 2000 points of models, plus a rule book, a codex (maybe now a supplement), and a decent stock of primer, brushes, paints, and flock. Even still, you can be up and running, playing high level tournament 40k for under a grand, and really only pay a small amount annually after that to update the army. with 2000 points you can play leagues, pick up games, everything but apocolypse, and after a few years of adding to hte army, you'll hit that number anyway.

Magic, of course, has a lower buy in, fewer necessary supplies, but requires buying more cards every four months to keep up. Now, 40k has gotten interesting in that depending on your army, you'll need a major rebuild every four years or so, between edition and codex changes, and god help you if an army gets nerfed badly in a new edition (think Tau in 5th, or Dropwing BA in 6th).

I'm sure if you run the numbers, competitive 40k can be done for cheaper than magic, but likely isn't in practice. And the new sweeping changes each new book brings increased the "maintenance" costs.

Small update:
Tyranids also get no battleforce, but a $170.00 swarm.
Many battalions and battleforces are dropped from stockist module 4 and probably discontinued.
More indications that the original rumour is correct indeed.

GW can only continue to fleece its customers if they continue to bow to "peer pressure", if a young kid has a pal who plays he can play at his house (negating the obligation to use GW models) sharing the rule book, buy an army book (not compulsary amoung freinds) and get a nice set-up from Mantic for a fraction of the GW cost, if money is very tight he can buy some fantasy warriors plastics at £7-£8 for 50.
You dont have to play WHFB or 40k there are other systems.
You dont have to use GW models to play GW games.
You can keep playing the same rules edition forever if thats what you and your buddies agree on.
If you dont like GW prices take your custom elsewhere-i do.

Sure. But kids will continue to play the game that has far more players, namely 40k.

Most kids will get around £120-£200 for Christmas from parents, grandparents and a couple of aunts. That will buy you a tyranid swarm (£85 from Dark Sphere, our local shop), a codex and a Tervigon or two which will keep the average kid painting for a year. Plus, of course, some prices, like the Carnifexes, have come down, as have the cost of Warriors with boneswords, etc etc etc. So the sky ain't falling quite yet.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Sure. But kids will continue to play the game that has far more players, namely 40k.

The above is in no way limited to kids. Unless you're purely a collector and/or painter, a game is only as good as the quality of the product AND your ability to play it. A game can have great rules and awesome minis but if you can't ever find an opponent, it's effectively "worthless" to a gamer.

 scarletsquig wrote:
Makes sense I don't see why they're necessary when the webstore has all those one-click bundles, just a waste of shelf space.

And they were a bundle of models sold at a discount so GW was deliberately losing money for their shareholders every time they sold one.

You can't have that sort of thing going on and still expect to maximize quarterly dividend yield.

You can't honestly believe that selling $6 worth of plastic being sold for $180 is going to put a company out of business. Even with operating expenses and other materials we're looking at a huge profit margin. On a per sale basis. The problem is that gw is trying to be something they aren't - if they'd stick to their roots they'd be in much better shape

The problem with GW is that they are now in a market which is not solely owned by them. They use to be able to set the price and have all these wondrous items of deals and what not without really being hurt because their competition was lacking. In the last decade these things have changed. We've seen new companies emerge and hold a strong standing in the market and how GW responds to this is by increasing prices and quality.

So GW puts out great quality items...but they are screwing over their fanbase by raising prices. They are slowly digging their own grave by making their Hobby become harder for newcomers to get into it, but to keep the ones they have hooked their claws into spending higher prices. It's sad really...I love Warhammer Fantasy and some what of 40k, but they are killing themselves.

I see GW being a failing if not dead company in the next ten years by all the business mistakes they have made.

Makes sense to me. Battalions and Battleforces are a great way for a new player to start the game, but so are Megaforces (or similar sized boxes). However, Megaforces bring in more cash for GW, yet they can still sell them as "the way to get into the hobby".

It is a shame though, if they discontinue the current ones. I was hoping to start a Dark Eldar army using mainly the contents of the Battleforce.

I don't see why people are so bent up out of shape over this. All of the battleforces offered a small discount.... by giving you a kit or squad you didn't want in the first place.

Like orks... doesn't work on a table top level. You have too many boyz for the trukk... or you have a trukk you didn't want... or you have only 3 worthless bikers that aren't that great on the tabletop.

Or tau... you get some firewarriors, suits and... piranha and stealth suits.... yay? At least the piranha is marginally useful but the stealth suits are terrible.

Eldar gives you again, gives you either a transport you didn't want or too many troops to fit in said transport, and a vyper you probably didn't want.

The trend continues across all of these sets. Anyone familiar to the way the game is played currently knows that the battleforce offers a free unit... but that unit isn't one you wanted in the first place. You spend a lot of money to buy what you could just buy for the same price to get what you really wanted anyway.

These just don't make a lot of business sense anymore. I'd wager they aren't getting a lot of new blood, and the old blood certainly aren't buying battleforces.

Sad to hear about them get rid of the boxes (though it's no surprise). I'm thinking about starting a dwarf army and a £70 battalion is a lot easier to stomach than a £150 box.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I guess GW don't want new players having an easy way to expand their armies.

They don't want players, their goal is to "trick" people to buy the most expensive thing possible. Then they become fed up and quit, and a new person is tricked. This is the new GW business model.

Oh my god, I didn't realise I'd been hoodwinked. Thanks so much, mysterious stranger, for coming to my rescue! etc

 Bull0 wrote:
Oh my god, I didn't realise I'd been hoodwinked. Thanks so much, mysterious stranger, for coming to my rescue! etc

You probably thought you enjoyed putting your models together, painting them and playing games with them. That's how they get you, with hours of "enjoyment".

We've reached beyond the point price/quality wise where buying 40k products directly from GW is anything but being ripped off. You can say you're fine with being ripped off, but it doesn't change the fact.

Additionally GW tries to sell overtly young inexperienced people the most needless and expensive things possible with no expectation or desire to have them come back.

My two statements were directed at these two realities.

Battleforces were mixed. Some of them had good composition, some not so much. They were usually good for newbies providing a nucleus for an army, but for anyone building a competive army, they generally weren't worth it: also, their cost kept creeping up much faster than rest of the line, making savings considerably smaller over time. I think Tau Battleforce went from 60 euros to 95 euros in just three years: since the units which battleforce was made up saw much smaller price increases, in the end Battleforce just really wasn't worth it.

It's true that the game could use more affordable 'starter deals' also in absolute price (not just relative). OTOH, new larger 'Strike forces' seem like better deals (at least presently...) than the Battleforces were.

What the GW is really lacking is complete starter kit: a legal army AND Codex for a reasonable price. They should offer such deals at least to some of the most popular armies.

 Bull0 wrote:
Oh my god, I didn't realise I'd been hoodwinked. Thanks so much, mysterious stranger, for coming to my rescue! etc

It's odd, the whitest knight (or blue, when Brylcream was still posting) usually has the cutest response. Your enjoyment of the game has nothing to do with GW's business strategy. Their actions speak louder than your words. I also don't feel cheated by the 4 years of 40k I enjoyed during 5th edition, but it doesn't change the fact that GW wants the new bloods, not guys like us. I also can't understand how you enjoy 6th, as the game lends itself to abusive players (closest model is an idiotic rule from gameplay standings, horrible vehicle frailty, CC near-uselessness, etc). I bought two SM mega forces and felt they were worth every penny-I'm sure the new mega forces will be the same if you buy at discount like I did. My discounted boxes worked out to about 50% off-I'm selling stuff off and gaining back what I spent. My post rambles a bit-I'm tired, fried from work and I doubt my line of thought is anything resembling "follow-able". Also on an iPhone, always makes posts strange.

Tl;dr-white knight attitude, their business strategy sucks, 6th sucks, mega forces are still good value, I'm tired.

 timetowaste85 wrote:


It's odd, the whitest knight (or blue, when Brylcream was still posting) usually has the cutest response. Your enjoyment of the game has nothing to do with GW's business strategy. Their actions speak louder than your words. I also don't feel cheated by the 4 years of 40k I enjoyed during 5th edition, but it doesn't change the fact that GW wants the new bloods, not guys like us. I also can't understand how you enjoy 6th, as the game lends itself to abusive players...

Tl;dr-white knight attitude, their business strategy sucks, 6th sucks, mega forces are still good value, I'm tired.

A strange phrase, white knight. Few people here suggest the sun shines out of GW's ass - but even saying you like a game, or that GW[i] aren't totally evil[i], provokes this kind of over-the-top accusation.

I also wonder what kind of places you hang out at, that attracts these abusive, nasty people. We've rarely encountered them.

I see GW staff interacting with kids all the time. Some of the staff are obnoxious - many are charming, funny and patient, going about their lives much like normal people, rather than the shocktroops of an evil empire. With my 13-year old, the only heavy sales pitch I've ever heard was for a Dark Vengeance set - and a Broodlord.

^ This...My local Games Workshop is where my wife and I started playing last year and they have never steered us wrong or pitched something just for a sale, even when we were brand new and knew nothing about the game. I even consider them friends at this point. I do feel that some prices are outrageous and Ebay what I cant justify spending, but I still buy from them from time to time because we play there, they are nice to us and I want to support the store.

The TK box was a good one. And so is the Ogre one, but it's like 120 bucks.

That said, they sit on our shelves for a long long time unless someone is already committed to buying into a new army.

Quiet you guys!
Your personal experience of positive GW interactions has no relation to other people's doomsaying!
You are getting in the road of people decrying the nigh inevitable death of GW!

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 timetowaste85 wrote:


It's odd, the whitest knight (or blue, when Brylcream was still posting) usually has the cutest response. Your enjoyment of the game has nothing to do with GW's business strategy. Their actions speak louder than your words. I also don't feel cheated by the 4 years of 40k I enjoyed during 5th edition, but it doesn't change the fact that GW wants the new bloods, not guys like us. I also can't understand how you enjoy 6th, as the game lends itself to abusive players...

Tl;dr-white knight attitude, their business strategy sucks, 6th sucks, mega forces are still good value, I'm tired.

A strange phrase, white knight. Few people here suggest the sun shines out of GW's ass - but even saying you like a game, or that GW[i] aren't totally evil[i], provokes this kind of over-the-top accusation.

I also wonder what kind of places you hang out at, that attracts these abusive, nasty people. We've rarely encountered them.

I see GW staff interacting with kids all the time. Some of the staff are obnoxious - many are charming, funny and patient, going about their lives much like normal people, rather than the shocktroops of an evil empire. With my 13-year old, the only heavy sales pitch I've ever heard was for a Dark Vengeance set - and a Broodlord.

I'm on my laptop now, can be a bit more coherent. I've actually only made that call after seeing large quantities of certain posts praising GW and tearing down others who disagree with their decision. And yeah, I tried one game of 6th and had multiple instances of "that guy looks about a millimeter closer-you have to remove him." Constantly. I felt bored through the entire thing. Again, I'll praise them when they deserve it-I still buy their pant, I prefer it over any others I've tried. Their background and lore is phenomenal. 5th edition was great fun. But I also hate it when they make such awful mistakes like 6th. I posted that the mega-sets are great deals based on what I've seen in the past couple years. I've never had a bad experience in a GW store before either, and as such I haven't cried out against those-I feel most of my displeasure has been voiced in the correct areas. If you disagree, maybe we can discuss in a PM and not drag further off topic (I admit to being a cause of OT).

BrotherVord wrote:

 scarletsquig wrote:
Makes sense I don't see why they're necessary when the webstore has all those one-click bundles, just a waste of shelf space.

And they were a bundle of models sold at a discount so GW was deliberately losing money for their shareholders every time they sold one.

You can't have that sort of thing going on and still expect to maximize quarterly dividend yield.

You can't honestly believe that selling $6 worth of plastic being sold for $180 is going to put a company out of business. Even with operating expenses and other materials we're looking at a huge profit margin. On a per sale basis. The problem is that gw is trying to be something they aren't - if they'd stick to their roots they'd be in much better shape

Gw make about £2 off a £28 box. Profitability in manufacturing has a lot more to do with labour costs, economies of scale and services, than it has to do with the cost of raw material. I'm on my phone atm but i can elaborate more on this later if you like.

GW's own figures disagree with you, but I look forward to a fuller answer..

Remember Az, xru lives in an alternate reality where GW are the plucky put-upon underdog company just fighting to get the Best Miniatures In The World out to the masses, but the evil Internet people keep putting them down. This is the same reality where GW won the CHS case.

So yes, where he's from what he said about £2 on every £28 box is 100% true. He's not lying.

That's what they make on the box, the contents have a much higher profit margin.

He's not as ludicrously incorrect as one might assume.

Based on their reported turnover and profit, they average about £3.50 on a £28 sale if you extrapolate from the percentages and remove VAT.

That is net profit though, so that is the money GW gets to keep for its very ownsome, once all the rent, wages, utilities, materials, design, production, Kirby's solid gold bog seat etc are all paid for (and let us remember that reported profit is used for taxation purposes, so is a carefully managed as to not be too low to scare the shareholders or too high to incur "excess" corporation tax)

So, not a huge amount of actual money out, but a country mile in terms of percentages.

having seen the Tyranid Swarm box contents vin White Dwarf, if looks like they may be getting back into battleforces...that could, of course, just be limited edition.

TechMarine1 wrote:
having seen the Tyranid Swarm box contents vin White Dwarf, if looks like they may be getting back into battleforces...that could, of course, just be limited edition.

It's not limited edition.

The "Battleforces" are being replaced with boxes equivalent to "Megaforces".

UNCLEBADTOUCH wrote:
Basically te individual box prices have risen to be so close to the original £50-70 price point of battle forces that it becomes impossible to offer a multi kit box at that price point. This is why you are now starting to see the new £100+ bundles. It's a consequence of rising prices, so essentially the new £100+ boxes are the replacement battleforces/battalions.

This. The old battleforces basically gave you a starter army in the box. A lot of stuff, at a reasonable discount from buying individually.



Then they did the usual "slight drop in price for half as much" trick, to stay in line with the constantly rising prices.



But now, as others have noted, with still-rising prices, even the "new" battleforce price point has become too low to sustain if they want to have more than one model in the kit...


edit - fixed, spoilered pics.

 azreal13 wrote:
GW's own figures disagree with you, but I look forward to a fuller answer..

Source

Revenue: £134m.

Pre-Royalties Profit: £20.

That's a ratio of £6.7 for every £1 proft. so a £30 box will get GW, on average, £4.57. So yeah I was off by a pound, good catch.

Nah mate, I was off by a £1, YOU were off by £2.50, which is also 250%, not a small margin of error.

 azreal13 wrote:

That is net profit though, so that is the money GW gets to keep for its very ownsome, once all the rent, wages, utilities, materials, design, production, Kirby's solid gold bog seat etc are all paid for (and let us remember that reported profit is used for taxation purposes, so is a carefully managed as to not be too low to scare the shareholders or too high to incur "excess" corporation tax)

The shareholders would be very interested to know that Kirby is using company money to buy himself luxury items. Unless of course you made that up in order to bash GW and couldn't find anything concrete to hand?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 azreal13 wrote:
Nah mate, I was off by a £1, YOU were off by £2.50, which is also 250%, not a small margin of error.

Do feel free to show your working out so the whole class can join in.

Let's see...
You claimed (I assume) a net profit of £2 on £28

I claimed nearer £3.50

You then admitted I was closer, and in fact by your own figures still underestimated it, and said you were off by £1.

If you're really unable to see the solid gold bog seat reference as humour, regardless of whether you find it humorous, then there is no hope for you.

I don't know why you're bothering Az. Dude's never going to admit even the slightest defeat, however trivial.

Oh, incidentally, a net profit of almost 20% is incredibly healthy for a retailer, if they could just grow their revenue they'd be rolling in it.

 Kanluwen wrote:

TechMarine1 wrote:
having seen the Tyranid Swarm box contents vin White Dwarf, if looks like they may be getting back into battleforces...that could, of course, just be limited edition.

It's not limited edition.

The "Battleforces" are being replaced with boxes equivalent to "Megaforces".

Are they? I was under the impression that the four released at Christmas were limited releases. No idea about the others (except the SM one which seems to be a permanent offering).

 Sidstyler wrote:
You're missing the point. It's a larger saving, but you're being asked to spend twice as much in one go.

GW raises the price of a Tac Squad and suddenly GW is gouging their customers. Okay, fair enough. But later, GW puts together a "Big Box Mart" deal at a decent enough discount and suddenly... wait for it... GW is gouging their customers. Some people will complain about anything on this site.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't know why you're bothering Az. Dude's never going to admit even the slightest defeat, however trivial.

I think the victory here is obvious to everyone else, I don't need or require an admission of defeat.

I will just cooly swipe a comb through my bryllcreamed hair, stare into the middle distance and let my points testify for themselves.

 azreal13 wrote:
Let's see...
You claimed (I assume) a net profit of £2 on £28

I claimed nearer £3.50

You then admitted I was closer, and in fact by your own figures still underestimated it, and said you were off by £1.

The £2 out of £28 was my recollection, which I clarified later with facts.

It appears that my actual facts were correct, so that's all there is to say on the matter.

If you're really unable to see the solid gold bog seat reference as humour, regardless of whether you find it humorous, then there is no hope for you.

You implied that gw/kirby was somehow sneaking profit out from the backs of the shareholders, or that they are hiding profits somehow. The fact that you made a joke out of it doesn't make you any less wrong.

Tell you what - I'll admit that your golden toilet seat joke was the funniest thing I've ever read in my life, if you admit that my statistical analysis above was correct and that gw make, on average, £4.50 profit on a £30 box.

 azreal13 wrote:
...my bryllcreamed hair...

Dude. Phrasing.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't know why you're bothering Az. Dude's never going to admit even the slightest defeat, however trivial.

I base my opinions on fact and am more than happy to admit when I am wrong - as I did about 3 posts above the one I am quoting now.

 Breotan wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
...my bryllcreamed hair...

Dude. Phrasing.

Dude. Deliberate reference.

Ignoring very basic maths in favour of back-slapping and in-jokes? Figures.

I'm out. If you're interested in a more in-depth analysis of GW's finances, ClockworkZion did one somewhere. I'm sure if you pm him he'll have a link.

Apart from the bit that I used maths to prove you wrong, then where you tried to mitigate your error by using my information in place of your own?

xruslanx wrote:
You implied that gw/kirby was somehow sneaking profit out from the backs of the shareholders, or that they are hiding profits somehow. The fact that you made a joke out of it doesn't make you any less wrong.

I think you're sense of humour is broken. Stop being so damned literal. Even the most average joey would understand that joke, so why can't you?

Just spotted this, then I'll stop kicking the puppy...

xruslanx wrote:

Tell you what - I'll admit that your golden toilet seat joke was the funniest thing I've ever read in my life, if you admit that my statistical analysis above was correct and that gw make, on average, £4.50 profit on a £30 box.

Right, I'll admit it, happily.

Know why? Because you claimed that they made £2 on £28 initially. I said you were wrong and was nearer £3.50, using some very rough and ready mental arithmetic. You now are insisting I accept your assertion that you are actually more wrong than I originally thought.

I hope you have many happy hours laughing at a comment I only included to try and make my post slightly more amusing to read.

 azreal13 wrote:
Just spotted this, then I'll stop kicking the puppy...

xruslanx wrote:

Tell you what - I'll admit that your golden toilet seat joke was the funniest thing I've ever read in my life, if you admit that my statistical analysis above was correct and that gw make, on average, £4.50 profit on a £30 box.

Right, I'll admit it, happily.

Know why? Because you claimed that they made £2 on £28 initially. I said you were wrong and was nearer £3.50, using some very rough and ready mental arithmetic. You now are insisting I accept your assertion that you are actually more wrong than I originally thought.

I hope you have many happy hours laughing at a comment I only included to try and make my post slightly more amusing to read.

£2.50 was wrong yes, I admitted that earlier. Clearly I miss-remembered.

Just to clarify, my original post about GW making £2.50 profit off a £30 kit, was intended to demonstrate to a poster the insignificance of material costs in light manufacturing. I know that the number was wrong (and I clarified it further since I don't have access to GW's profit/loss statements on my phone in the canteen at work) which is why I clarified it later. My point was still solid though - the fact that plastic only cost a few pennies is irrelevent really. £2.50 was undoubtedly closer to the reality than the £27 supposed by the poster I was replying to.

 azreal13 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I don't know why you're bothering Az. Dude's never going to admit even the slightest defeat, however trivial.

I think the victory here is obvious to everyone else, I don't need or require an admission of defeat.

I will just cooly swipe a comb through my bryllcreamed hair, stare into the middle distance and let my points testify for themselves.

Oh, it is Bryl back? The guy nobody missed when he left? There goes the neighborhood. Again...

xruslanx wrote:

 azreal13 wrote:
Just spotted this, then I'll stop kicking the puppy...

xruslanx wrote:

Tell you what - I'll admit that your golden toilet seat joke was the funniest thing I've ever read in my life, if you admit that my statistical analysis above was correct and that gw make, on average, £4.50 profit on a £30 box.

Right, I'll admit it, happily.

Know why? Because you claimed that they made £2 on £28 initially. I said you were wrong and was nearer £3.50, using some very rough and ready mental arithmetic. You now are insisting I accept your assertion that you are actually more wrong than I originally thought.

I hope you have many happy hours laughing at a comment I only included to try and make my post slightly more amusing to read.

£2.50 was wrong yes, I admitted that earlier. Clearly I miss-remembered.

Just to clarify, my original post about GW making £2.50 profit off a £30 kit, was intended to demonstrate to a poster the insignificance of material costs in light manufacturing. I know that the number was wrong (and I clarified it further since I don't have access to GW's profit/loss statements on my phone in the canteen at work) which is why I clarified it later. My point was still solid though - the fact that plastic only cost a few pennies is irrelevent really. £2.50 was undoubtedly closer to the reality than the £27 supposed by the poster I was replying to.

Depends if you're talking gross or net profit.

Gross profit on the same £30 kit would be, using thumbnail numbers, ~£19, that's using a percentage calculated from GW's own "cost of doing business" figures from the last report, which factors in all expenses getting product on to the shelf, from purchase of raw materials to design and machining to logistics of delivery, but no further costs (rent, rates, utilities, wages etc) which is perhaps more what the poster you were responding to meant (and you took them a little too literally)

I believe the heavy dependence on their own stores is flaw in their approach, but it is one that they are now pretty much lumbered with.

 Breotan wrote:
But later, GW puts together a "Big Box Mart" deal at a decent enough discount and suddenly... wait for it... GW is gouging their customers. Some people will complain about anything on this site.

I'm not even saying it isn't a good discount, all I was saying is that going into a store and getting a big box of models for $90 was a much more attractive deal than going into the same store and not walking out with a big box of models unless you're willing to drop close to $200, which is considerably more expensive. I didn't say GW was "gouging their customers", but I think it's pretty obvious that GW doesn't want you to leave without dropping quite a bit of money on product before you do, and I don't think there's anything wrong in pointing out that they're asking for a lot of money and that this may be more than a little off-putting to new players, who are undoubtedly the ones these big boxes are aimed at in the first place.

Hell, even back when I got my Tau battleforce, the $90 price tag was fething scary, and the Tau battleforce was one of the few that was actually well-designed and sorta gave you a legal "army" with it. I had barely been out on my own for a year at that point and $100 was a lot to spend in one go on anything, especially a bunch of unpainted plastic toys. Thankfully I got a 10% discount for some reason, and the Tau codex at the time was only $20 if I remember right, so I felt a lot better in the end knowing that for a little over $100 i was off to a pretty good start on my first 40k army, and I actually felt like this is something I could get into. Honestly, if battleforces had been $200 back then, and I knew I still had to blow $50 just on my army's rules on top of that, I doubt I would have bought into the game at all. Prices were much more reasonable back in 2006 and even back then I had to defend every purchase I made because my parents criticized me for spending so much. And I can imagine a lot of people now looking at the $170 Tyranid swarm box and saying "feth that!", no matter how many models come in the box (actually I don't' have to imagine, I've seen that happen before several times...here recently I watched a couple people look interestingly at the 40k product wall, then laugh their asses off at the $160 Lord of Skulls and never look at 40k again). In fact I think if you took the time to explain to that potential Tyranid player how much money they were saving with the $200 box they'd probably be even more put-off, and decide that there was no way they could actually afford 40k in the long run, especially when they see $80 and $70 price tags on all the other units they still need to buy.

So yeah, these new megaforce-style boxes are technically good deals (I guess, I wouldn't buy a Tyranid swarm unless I knew someone who would trade me 40 termagants for the 40 useless hormagaunts, and the SM strike force has so much chaff it isn't worth it no matter how big the discount is), but they don't really fix GW's number one problem: sticker shock. If anything they're only making it worse.

 Breotan wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

TechMarine1 wrote:
having seen the Tyranid Swarm box contents vin White Dwarf, if looks like they may be getting back into battleforces...that could, of course, just be limited edition.

It's not limited edition.

The "Battleforces" are being replaced with boxes equivalent to "Megaforces".

Are they? I was under the impression that the four released at Christmas were limited releases. No idea about the others (except the SM one which seems to be a permanent offering).

The Space Marine Strike Force is a permanent offering and from what I've been told, the Warhost of Naggaroth is not going anywhere.

The Christmas releases were tied to dataslates/scrolls. None were "legal" forces(an HQ/Hero or Lord and 2x Troops) in and of themselves like the Warhost and Strike Force are. The Swarm follows that pattern, with the box having a Carnifex(which as we all know has parts that can be used to represent Old One Eye, who seems to be an HQ).

Bit late with my reply here, didn't mean to just chuck a grenade and duck. Yeah, I get that the gak's overpriced. I just don't think "choosing to buy something expensive" is the same thing as "being tricked into buying something expensive". If I had mega buyer's remorse, or the product were somehow not as described, then sure. But I don't, and it is. (Surgeon general's warning: YMMV. Some of the new books are definitely a let-down. Consuming GW products may lead to low birth weight and/or destruction of everything good, pure and true)

And oh god, the white knight thing again. Because THAT doesn't get tiring. I'll admit that the original point I replied to was generally trying to say little kids ("new players") are the targets of GW'S BUYER DECEIT and for that, yes, maybe, in that they're little kids and probably don't appreciate the mine field they're getting in to. It wasn't desperately fair for me, as a reasonably wealthy adult, to make myself the target of that to refute it. Sorry?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Timetowaste: You're a white knight Bull0 and you should feel bad, I've decided you enjoy playing 6th edition and can't fathom why, I like modelling, I'm rambling but I'm tired, tl;dr whitest of white knights on a white horse going to the isle of wight to eat white bread etc /paraphrase

I am about 90% in 40k for the painting and modelling. I've played like, 4 competitive games in my life, I mostly play at home with my friends and it's all pretty loose. I don't have much of any opinion on 6th vs 5th, I quite liked the introduction of the random elements like warlord traits and mysterious objectives, etc. I don't like hull points. There you go, I do have an opinion. Whaddya know.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.
But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.
Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only rich fanatics are supported, not children, teens or casual gamers.

Oh please. Enough of this damn nonsense.

Agreed. "Rich teen" my butt, I spent much more than that on airsoft in my teens. I had a job. I made 700 dollars a month as a register monkey at a grocery store part time.

I'm certainly not rich by any means now and I've managed to build two 2,000 point forces over the span of four months.

Could the models be cheaper? Certainly. Are they prohibitively expensive? A little. Is it impossible for the average guy to build respectable forces without branking the bank? Absolutely.

I've got a few large armies myself on a 24k salary. Hardly rich.

I have a 25$ a week allowance I let myself take. Twice a month I get a new box of something. It works.

 robam45 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.
But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.
Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only rich fanatics are supported, not children, teens or casual gamers.

Oh please. Enough of this damn nonsense.

Agreed. "Rich teen" my butt, I spent much more than that on airsoft in my teens. I had a job. I made 700 dollars a month as a register monkey at a grocery store part time.

I'm certainly not rich by any means now and I've managed to build two 2,000 point forces over the span of four months.

Could the models be cheaper? Certainly. Are they prohibitively expensive? A little. Is it impossible for the average guy to build respectable forces without branking the bank? Absolutely.

There's a difference between "GW products charge a premium that competing companies do not", and "GW products are too expensive for anyone who is not wealthy to afford". But if people enjoy lumping a year's worth of purchases in one and claiming that teens/kids can't afford 40k because a 2000 point army costs £1bn or whatever, then let them.

When I was unemployed I could easily afford enough 40k to keep up with my painting speed. Even if I was quick and painted a box of troops a week, that's only £23 for a week's worth of painting. Though I find that prices tend to be a bit silly when you move out of the Troops section, Land Raiders are crazy expensive, as are the new plastic characters. But most people won't be painting a Land Raider every week, these "big ticket" items usually aren't required in large numbers.

xruslanx wrote:

 robam45 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.
But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.
Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only rich fanatics are supported, not children, teens or casual gamers.

Oh please. Enough of this damn nonsense.

Agreed. "Rich teen" my butt, I spent much more than that on airsoft in my teens. I had a job. I made 700 dollars a month as a register monkey at a grocery store part time.

I'm certainly not rich by any means now and I've managed to build two 2,000 point forces over the span of four months.

Could the models be cheaper? Certainly. Are they prohibitively expensive? A little. Is it impossible for the average guy to build respectable forces without branking the bank? Absolutely.

There's a difference between "GW products charge a premium that competing companies do not", and "GW products are too expensive for anyone who is not wealthy to afford". But if people enjoy lumping a year's worth of purchases in one and claiming that teens/kids can't afford 40k because a 2000 point army costs £1bn or whatever, then let them.

When I was unemployed I could easily afford enough 40k to keep up with my painting speed. Even if I was quick and painted a box of troops a week, that's only £23 for a week's worth of painting. Though I find that prices tend to be a bit silly when you move out of the Troops section, Land Raiders are crazy expensive, as are the new plastic characters. But most people won't be painting a Land Raider every week, these "big ticket" items usually aren't required in large numbers.

That's all well and good but you're still comparing GW to any other form of entertainment you could be spending that money on, once you narrow the comparison to the tabletop wargaming/model painting hobby £23 for ten models is still quite a lot.

 jonolikespie wrote:
That's all well and good but you're still comparing GW to any other form of entertainment you could be spending that money on, once you narrow the comparison to the tabletop wargaming/model painting hobby £23 for ten models is still quite a lot.

Since we're back to this debate, I'll reiterate that Malifaux and Warmahordes models can be (model for model) as expensive as GW models, sometimes even more so let's not pretend that it is just GW that is doing this.

Maybe the battalions and battle forces are going to be only available online.

bleumike wrote:
Maybe the battalions and battle forces are going to be only available online.

Hard to say, but the FLGS that I go to is going to be able to get the Tyranid Swarm (basically, a battle force). Of course, it could only be that way for a short while and then go to online only.

 Rayvon wrote:

 Kroothawk wrote:
Stores are lucky to have the 100$ battalion sold to a rich teen once in a while, esp. around Xmas.
But 200$ is way beyond the reach of teens even around Xmas.
Only positive thing: customers learn from the start, that only rich fanatics are supported, not children, teens or casual gamers.

In the UK teens are regularly bought hundreds of pounds worth of stuff at birthdays and christmas by their parents, and thats not even the rich ones, I should not imagine it being that different elsewhere.

I think you and I have different definitions of "not rich". Even some families which are ostensibly part of the middle class in this country are having to turn to food banks to feed themselves, the idea that there are armies of parents out there willing to drop several hundred quid on toy soldiers is laughable.

 Breotan wrote:

 jonolikespie wrote:
That's all well and good but you're still comparing GW to any other form of entertainment you could be spending that money on, once you narrow the comparison to the tabletop wargaming/model painting hobby £23 for ten models is still quite a lot.

Since we're back to this debate, I'll reiterate that Malifaux and Warmahordes models can be (model for model) as expensive as GW models, sometimes even more so let's not pretend that it is just GW that is doing this.

Spurious comparison. I've often bought models that were much more expensive than GW minis when you compare single-miniature to single-miniature, but those were either A; of FAR superior quality, B; rare, limited edition, or OOP ebay purchases, or C; for game systems that require a fraction of the investment. Comparing "model for model" isn't a fair or accurate comparison when one of the systems in question requires substantially larger numbers of those models to even have a playable army, let alone a force big enough to play average sized games at clubs and stores.

 Breotan wrote:
Since we're back to this debate, I'll reiterate that Malifaux and Warmahordes models can be (model for model) as expensive as GW models, sometimes even more so let's not pretend that it is just GW that is doing this.

Let us also not pretend that you need anywhere near as many Malifaux or Warmahordes minis to make a full army, unlike 40K and especially WFB.

People will pay what they are willing to pay for anything if they want it enough.
To all the complainers out there if you don't like the price don't buy it go elsewhere play a different game you will not change the minds of the people that will pay $200 for a box of plastic.

To the players that are willing to pay the money for a $200 box of plastic you won't change the minds of the complainers.

Why don't we get back on topic and that topic is Battalions and Battle forces going away I don't see all of them going away tomorrow or any time soon just as the Army Codex's get redone the box for that army will get retired and a larger starter box gets put out.

 sonofruss wrote:
People will pay what they are willing to pay for anything if they want it enough.
To all the complainers out there if you don't like the price don't buy it go elsewhere play a different game you will not change the minds of the people that will pay $200 for a box of plastic.

To the players that are willing to pay the money for a $200 box of plastic you won't change the minds of the complainers.

Yes, that's kind of stating the obvious. But people it's not going to stop people complaining and it's not going to stop people defending. The complainers complain because while they might still be willing to pay that money, they might not be happy about it. The defenders will continue to defend, I dunno why, I'm not a psychologist

The games play through faster these days with entire units dying having never moved.
At least with one of these larger bundles it'll be a fun game for the beginner.

 Alex Kolodotschko wrote:
The games play through faster these days with entire units dying having never moved.
At least with one of these larger bundles it'll be a fun game for the beginner.

Until the beginner tries to paint 80 gaunts and realises the hole they've gotten themselves in to

Or assemble their horrible split down the middle heads.
I'm glad I've only got to paint the new bits for the nid release.
:Shudder:

xruslanx wrote:
, that's only £23 for a week's worth of painting.

Only £23 for a week? Seems quite a lot to me.

I'm impressed that you managed to find £23 a week to fritter away on miniatures whilst unemployed. I was briefly on Jobseekers once for about a month and I did not have any spare money whatsoever.

 sonofruss wrote:
Why don't we get back on topic and that topic is Battalions and Battle forces going away I don't see all of them going away tomorrow or any time soon just as the Army Codex's get redone the box for that army will get retired and a larger starter box gets put out.

Imagine that a company put out a boxed set that collected several boxed sets together, yet provided no bulk discount, special artwork, special items, or any real incentive at all for the customer to buy it. If that sort of boxed set disappeared, Who would care if such a boxed set disappeared?

I might be bothered by this, if I bothered with buying GW product to play their games. When I started really looking around the internet, I found no possible way to justify paying GWd prices except in very rare circumstances, and took my business elsewhere as a result. It can be frustrating finding non-gw models to represent anything but IG in 40k for cheap, but WHFB has a great variety of possible standins for all sorts of armies. GW lost most of my business long ago. I'm not liable to come back unless something changes dramatically.

Around my area folks getting into 40k seem to go for used models/armies as they tend to be far cheaper, are often already put together, and tend to be an entire built army. So really the Megaforce's and the like seem to be more for folks moving into new armies anyhow.

They used to have similar ones with the old metal models (Anyone remember the Iyanden Army Box?)

So is there any update on this? Is it actually happening or just speculation at this point?

There's a precedent, but nothing concrete. The last army to get an old-style battleforce was Eldar, and the Tau one didn't change I believe. Space Marines, the poster boys and chief product line got the strikeforce instead, which is honestly much better.

Paying $100 $120 and not getting even a legal combat patrol army isn't very attractive, and never saved you much money, the Marine strikeforce is actually pretty good for a new player; full legal army with plenty of flexibility as to how you build the stuff in it, with the Venerable Dreadnought the only objectively bad unit, but still not completely terrible. The amount of money you save is also notable, I'm all for seeing more things like it.

The niche, and limited time only Iyanden and Firebase Cadre aren't quite my thing, but a big balanced box like the strikeforce is great for a newbie, and not bad for an older player to expand a force in multiple directions, especially given a well established bits box.

 MajorStoffer wrote:
There's a precedent, but nothing concrete. The last army to get an old-style battleforce was Eldar, and the Tau one didn't change I believe. Space Marines, the poster boys and chief product line got the strikeforce instead, which is honestly much better.

Paying $100 $120 and not getting even a legal combat patrol army isn't very attractive, and never saved you much money, the Marine strikeforce is actually pretty good for a new player; full legal army with plenty of flexibility as to how you build the stuff in it, with the Venerable Dreadnought the only objectively bad unit, but still not completely terrible. The amount of money you save is also notable, I'm all for seeing more things like it.

The niche, and limited time only Iyanden and Firebase Cadre aren't quite my thing, but a big balanced box like the strikeforce is great for a newbie, and not bad for an older player to expand a force in multiple directions, especially given a well established bits box.

I only ask because my SO picked up some Dark Eldar, and I told her to buy some Battleforces (maybe 2). For $90 on eBay, getting a Raider, a squad of Wyches, Warriors, and Reavers is a pretty sweet deal.

 ntdars wrote:
So is there any update on this? Is it actually happening or just speculation at this point?

As I said:
1.) Fact is that the third army in a row got a megaforce instead of a battalion, which is included in module 4 for GW stockists.
2.) More and more battalions and battleforces taken out of module 4 or discontinued altogether.

This is happening. That this is a deliberate decision and a trend is speculation, but a very probable one.

You mean the first really to get one since last holiday season right? Because Tau, Eldar, Chaos Daemons, and Chaos Marines all got battleforces that were different from the previous edition, while DA just got the Ravenwing set again.

The only armies to have gotten the Megaforce treatment recently have been the SM and last year's Cron megaforce. Unless the trend you're referring to is a holiday big box then sure there's a trend, otherwise it just looks like SM will get a bigger box than everyone else.

 Watchersinthedark wrote:
You mean the first really to get one since last holiday season right? Because Tau, Eldar, Chaos Daemons, and Chaos Marines all got battleforces that were different from the previous edition, while DA just got the Ravenwing set again.

The only armies to have gotten the Megaforce treatment recently have been the SM and last year's Cron megaforce. Unless the trend you're referring to is a holiday big box then sure there's a trend, otherwise it just looks like SM will get a bigger box than everyone else.

The Warhost of Naggaroth and the Tyranid Swarm box beg to differ. They're the "new standard" of boxed sets and equivalent to the Space Marine Strikeforce box which is currently available.


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 ntdars wrote:
So is there any update on this? Is it actually happening or just speculation at this point?

Not really an easy question to answer. Time will tell, but as of right now it looks like it is actually happening.

The next set of releases(supposedly Dwarves then IG) will determine whether or not it can be really confirmed though.

Oooh, given the value in the Nid box (from a discounter at least) then I might have to scratch my IG itch when that drops (and as I had declared myself done with new forces for 40K, that would be a pretty big deal for me personally)

Will have to see what new releases accompany it and if they feature, as if they still include feth tons of that god awful mess that masquerades as infantry, I might just have to stick with plan A and go full counts as at a (much) later date.

 azreal13 wrote:
Oooh, given the value in the Nid box (from a discounter at least) then I might have to scratch my IG itch when that drops (and as I had declared myself done with new forces for 40K, that would be a pretty big deal for me personally)

Good call, that. The Guard box will be interesting to see.

As a kid i used to get the £5 space marine bikes since i got £5 a week, in 4th ed i was ten and due to my socio economic background it really worked for me (and i was a kid so it was hard to save), for my birthday my parents got me a starterbox with everything i needed which still lets me play a small space marine force today. I restarted the hobby with my ex last year and she got a DE armybox, she used it, got an hq etc but we both found it was pretty hard to pay for with travel to the shop, food and all the normal stuff two young people want to do where we're from. Prices since then have gone up and up and half of my shop left which in turn made our local owner leave...now if GW had kept the prices the same and kept those army boxes going i'm pretty sure my local would still be full of kids on saturdays with their rich mums buying up the stock and other teens and young people moaning about not getting a seat.

Hobbies are and always will be expensive, its a luxury! But the current CEOs really have alienated at least half my shop with these price changes. A £50 battlebox is a nice round number to get into the hobby, but if me and my ex had seen the only started kit was in triple figures we would have ran. GW should have kept the price and sizes the same because that shop was making mad money up until may when the price hike came in, GW should market its self for all, not just rich people and buy charging the earth for these huge boxes i know it will throw more people like me off starting than get people in.

(I also buy from gw to keep my shopping running=free gaming board)

 scarletsquig wrote:
Makes sense I don't see why they're necessary when the webstore has all those one-click bundles, just a waste of shelf space.

And they were a bundle of models sold at a discount so GW was deliberately losing money for their shareholders every time they sold one.

You can't have that sort of thing going on and still expect to maximize quarterly dividend yield.

There is a difference between losing money and leaving a couple of dollars on the table to incentivize someone to buy a larger price point. First, GW doesn't lose money because you buy a bundle over individual boxes. In simple terms, a loss to the shareholders means you did not cover your costs. So how much does it cost to make the box set? You've got raw materials, distribution, and labor to create the box? As long as the sale is more than that, they turn a profit. From that point, GW needs to monitor their SG&A expenses to ensure a profit for the year.

This goes back more than a decade when Dakka was in its infancy and portent.net was all the rage, but you could buy an entire chapter for $5,000 and get a free thunder hawk gun ship. We're they losing money by creating this deal? No. For most manufacturers and distributors, they don't sell anything at a loss unless they are dumping stuff. Remember when they were getting a smaller warehouse? We had apocalypse hit stores and we had some huge bundle deals. It was cheaper to sell than pay people to move their inventory and ship it to a new location.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Watchersinthedark wrote:
You mean the first really to get one since last holiday season right? Because Tau, Eldar, Chaos Daemons, and Chaos Marines all got battleforces that were different from the previous edition, while DA just got the Ravenwing set again.

The only armies to have gotten the Megaforce treatment recently have been the SM and last year's Cron megaforce. Unless the trend you're referring to is a holiday big box then sure there's a trend, otherwise it just looks like SM will get a bigger box than everyone else.

The Warhost of Naggaroth and the Tyranid Swarm box beg to differ. They're the "new standard" of boxed sets and equivalent to the Space Marine Strikeforce box which is currently available.


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 ntdars wrote:
So is there any update on this? Is it actually happening or just speculation at this point?

Not really an easy question to answer. Time will tell, but as of right now it looks like it is actually happening.

The next set of releases(supposedly Dwarves then IG) will determine whether or not it can be really confirmed though.

Fair enough. Wasn't looking at Fantasy and really forgot about the nids release.

Lets get one thing straight. There is no reason GW charges so much for their items..... They are freaken awesome plastic models, but they are plastic a cheap easily accessible. I still remember when battleforces had ruins and decent stuff in them Example for $60 bucks you could get IG with ruins, A leaman russ tank, HQ squad, 3 Heavy Weapons and 20 inf. now for $114 you get a worthless sentinal, 20 inf, HQ squad, and 3 Heavy weapons. In my local store they have a few old Fantasy single Calvary units. These metal models still have the old price tag of 4.99 on the back, but in present times the same unit costs 15............ Thank goodness for kickstarter and the other companies that are making better looking models for cheaper.

The Mega Forces just seem to be a better way to start an army with one big purchase. A lot of new players only have about a 1000pt list and the megas come with enough to do that, plus a couple things of your liking.

The problem I had with the Battle Force box sets, is that they were really only good for buffing your army. This was always a problem for me becasue when I got to the point that that might help, I did not need a third or fourth troops choice.

At my local store (not a GW shop), they have not sold a Battle force in months. and they have a punch card system that gives you 20% off after spending like $200, so if you buy one with that, it cuts off a lot of the profit they make on them.

In my opinion only, I think the Mega sets are a better way to get someone to start a new army, they give a pile of models to start a list and a respectable discount all together. Saves on shipping, tax, and convenience.

nuke knight wrote:
Lets get one thing straight. There is no reason GW charges so much for their items..... They are freaken awesome plastic models, but they are plastic a cheap easily accessible. I still remember when battleforces had ruins and decent stuff in them Example for $60 bucks you could get IG with ruins, A leaman russ tank, HQ squad, 3 Heavy Weapons and 20 inf. now for $114 you get a worthless sentinal, 20 inf, HQ squad, and 3 Heavy weapons. In my local store they have a few old Fantasy single Calvary units. These metal models still have the old price tag of 4.99 on the back, but in present times the same unit costs 15............ Thank goodness for kickstarter and the other companies that are making better looking models for cheaper.

Too right mate, i remember when plastics were first introduced-GW said the steel molds would be in use for ever and as they re-couped the high initial mold costs the models would get cheaper and cheaper as the plastic itself was almost worthless, instead the older lines are removed and the price goes up and up -imagine if they re-issued the original Skeleton army box today, if i remember correctly there were something like 60 inf, a chariot and 8(i think) cavelry today if you buy from Black Tree Designs at the right time of year you can get metal for less than GW plastics.