If you could retcon any aspect of the 40k fluff, what would you change?

Would you improve something to make the universe seem more grim dark?

How about eliminating a race? Bringing one back?

How about the histories from the past?

Would you do it without buffing out your own army? Lol let us know!

Tau and anyone that plays them gets removed from the pages of history.

I'd give the Tyranids a more believable MO than getting all their fuel from biomass. That always stuck me as too hard to reconcile since in the current time we understand metabolism well enough to know that eating a bunch of guardsmen burgers does not equal enough power to reach escape velocity.

Over all I enjoy the 40k fluff quite a bit. I think the secret to appreciating it is realizing that:

A: The universe is fundamentally insane
and
B: There are no reliable sources whatsoever (and this is intentional)

So you don't really have to retcon anything, you can do whatever you want with it as it is. So in Rogue Trader days there are half-man, half Eldar Space Marines. By 6th edition fluff that would be impossible right? Or is it? Perhaps there were (or are) such pairs, likely both the Imperium leadership and most Eldar would find such things appalling so both sides would deny there ever was such a thing, or that there ever could be such a thing. But Heretics say that the Imperium leadership are liars and every Emperor fearing human knows that Eldar are incapable of telling the truth. So what do they know?

But answering the spirit of you question I have always imagined the Zoats are what was left of the race that created the Tyranids as a weapon only to lose control of them and be enslaved themselves.

Hmm, what would I retcon? That whole bit of the Blood Angels forming a temporary alliance with the Necrons to fight Tyranids. And the Ultras and Tau playing nice that one time before bombing a planet they fought over.... Basically anything that supports this screwy Allies matrix we have now. And most of the GK backstory. Cool concept, very poor execution.

I'd bring back the Squats.

Wait, wait... hear me out before you start throwing sharp things.

I'd bring them back as abhumans in the IoM, rather than as their own race. As the only race that was descended from humans, they never had enough of a 'proper' xeno vibe for me. Heck, back in 1st edition they weren't their own race at all, but were classified as abhumans. So bring them back as abhuman auxiliaries, like ratlings and ogryns.

That doesn't sound too bad, does it?

I would retcon the battle of mccrage especially the part about the first company being wiped out to bring it more in line with current ultramarines fluff.

Change the marines back to the way they were in RT and lose the crusading space knights shtick.

Or make them hardcore Powered armour special forces that specialise in surgical strikes (no tanks) - walkers and power armour suits.

The other thing is that ARTILLERY does not belong on the tabletop in this scale. Remove it and make it off board stuff (that you have to pay for and make a roll for it to come on - like the orbital strikes that the daemon and witch hunters used to get.

squidhills wrote:
I'd bring back the Squats.

Wait, wait... hear me out before you start throwing sharp things.

I'd bring them back as abhumans in the IoM, rather than as their own race. As the only race that was descended from humans, they never had enough of a 'proper' xeno vibe for me. Heck, back in 1st edition they weren't their own race at all, but were classified as abhumans. So bring them back as abhuman auxiliaries, like ratlings and ogryns.

That doesn't sound too bad, does it?

I would definitely be okay with that - I mean there are Ratling and Ogryn abhumans accepted in the IG, so why no Squats. Of course, I've been in this hobby since the days of Epic Space Marine and always had to face off against the Squats. I respect those little bastards, they can put up quite the fight.

I'd retcon the price hikes since the '90s!

 chromedog wrote:
Change the marines back to the way they were in RT and lose the crusading space knights shtick.

Or make them hardcore Powered armour special forces that specialise in surgical strikes (no tanks) - walkers and power armour suits.

The other thing is that ARTILLERY does not belong on the tabletop in this scale. Remove it and make it off board stuff (that you have to pay for and make a roll for it to come on - like the orbital strikes that the daemon and witch hunters used to get.

I agree with all this. The Marine background used to be much cooler when only the outliers were monks and most were like raving sociopaths that are routinely brainwiped.

I'd retcon the abysmal changes to the Grey Knights background based on Ward's ideas with some of them including the ridiculousness of being completely incorruptible which includes the doubly stupid idea of Purifiers. Take out Draigo and his two-dimensional entirely as well as the controversial Bloodtide event with the Sisters of Battle or at least fluff it out so the Sisters sacrificed themselves in the name of the Emperor so their blood could be sanctified as a shield for them.

I would also probably revert the Black Templars fluff back to them hating all psykers (cept for grey knights, etc.) rather than being alright with them and having some half-assed reason why they don't have librarians.

Other than that retcon some of the Emperor's decisions in how he handled the Primarchs and even how some of the Primarchs fell. The problem is that once Black Library began trying to fluff out the Heresy it inevitably lead to poor execution and portrayal at attempts to add depth to characters that were never intended to be seen in a sustained and focussed perspective. Throw in the inconsistency they have with their own timeline with the way events/books are ordered and it only makes certain character's decisions like the Emperor even more confusing and irrational.

Oh and Iron Hands to be different in their clan autonomy rather than codex-adherent like Ward made them recently with his Clan Raukaan supplement.

Poly Ranger wrote:
I'd retcon the price hikes since the '90s!

/thread

Pretty much the whole thing Im not really a fan of the 40k or warhammer fluff. But i like some of the ideas and settings and the freedom you have with the imperial guard. Other that i pretty much would retcon all the back-story, 40K has gone way too over the top and verges on stupidity.

So for a more precise answer i'd retcon it back to a more serious adulty theme and story.

Orks as reproducing via bonk. I never minded the idea of Orks as reproducing through spores, it was when GW went stupid and made them infinitely reproducing though combat to give them +10 Grimdark that the Ork fluff was ruined. Orks were supposed to be the universe's comic relief, not one of its biggest threats. Orks were a threat every so often because a leader would finally emerge and unite a bunch of them. Not because they eventually just poofed enough boyz.

Centurions. Awful fluff, awful models. This is literally a unit that doesn't belong in the universe. It serves no purpose in the Space Marine armory, and thus would have never had any purpose for development. It's anathema to the way Space Marines fight in the fluff.

Dan Abnett's Legion. Nothing good happened there. Twin primarchs, Perpetuals. The Cabal. The Alpha Legion as pre-heresy sneaky Mission Impossible Marines, etc. That book ruined the Alpha Legion fluff, and sent them on a never-ending downward spiral of stupid, where authors attempted to one-up eachother finding a new way for the Alpha Legion to do anything other than actually be Space Marines.

Acts of Faith. The Sacred Rites from 2E made the Sisters of Battle religious zealots that fit within the fluff of the 40K universe. Acts of Faith made them D&D clerics in a universe with no actual divine magic. Ruined their fluff.

Graham McNeill. The real villain of 40K fluff. Forget Mat Ward. McNeill's ludicrous vision of the Codex Astartes ran counter to literally everything ever published about it, yet because of him, many players think the Codex Astartes is some kind of idiotic "If A, Then B" instruction manual for fighting. Like a "Warfighting For Dummies" or something. Just the prologue to the first Ultramarines novel is so mind-numbingly stupid that anyone who has ever studied even the least bit of combat theory or tactics could tell you there's no way the Ultramarines could (or would) ever be that restrictive, and still be the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters".

Necrons as space pharaohs. What was wrong with angry Egyptian space terminators which were the mindless remnants of a long-dead civilization? Billions strong "destroy the universe" is another example of +10 Grimdark.

I'm sure there's plenty of other stuff, but I'm tired.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Pretty much the whole thing Im not really a fan of the 40k or warhammer fluff. But i like some of the ideas and settings and the freedom you have with the imperial guard. Other that i pretty much would retcon all the back-story, 40K has gone way too over the top and verges on stupidity.

So for a more precise answer i'd retcon it back to a more serious adulty theme and story.

From the little I have seen from rogue trader going back would make it less adult.Except for daemonette models....

Necrons in their entirety, they are just a 'my dad can beat up your dad' army, who have no weaknesses, are immortal and are more numerous than humans. Complete bull, they define the phrase Mary Sue.

"Nevermore..."

Seriously, that completely ruined Corax's story for me. I would retcon that one stupid line.

Orks have gotten a little out of hand with ideas about how their technology is really fake but works because they believe it does. Silly. It was better when they were really crude and occasional savant like orks (mekboyz) built things that were brilliant hold-overs of technology buried in ork genes, but still were crude and unreliable even if fantastic. Now there's a lot of "perfect race" and "ork tech scales to meet the opposition". Not sure how much of that is cannon and how much is just people on forums, but orks are getting a bit too much even though I really like them.

Also, I liked when Guardians were former aspect warriors, not just a militia.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Orks as reproducing via bonk. I never minded the idea of Orks as reproducing through spores, it was when GW went stupid and made them infinitely reproducing though combat to give them +10 Grimdark that the Ork fluff was ruined. Orks were supposed to be the universe's comic relief, not one of its biggest threats. Orks were a threat every so often because a leader would finally emerge and unite a bunch of them. Not because they eventually just poofed enough boyz.

Centurions. Awful fluff, awful models. This is literally a unit that doesn't belong in the universe. It serves no purpose in the Space Marine armory, and thus would have never had any purpose for development. It's anathema to the way Space Marines fight in the fluff.

Dan Abnett's Legion. Nothing good happened there. Twin primarchs, Perpetuals. The Cabal. The Alpha Legion as pre-heresy sneaky Mission Impossible Marines, etc. That book ruined the Alpha Legion fluff, and sent them on a never-ending downward spiral of stupid, where authors attempted to one-up eachother finding a new way for the Alpha Legion to do anything other than actually be Space Marines.

Acts of Faith. The Sacred Rites from 2E made the Sisters of Battle religious zealots that fit within the fluff of the 40K universe. Acts of Faith made them D&D clerics in a universe with no actual divine magic. Ruined their fluff.

Graham McNeill. The real villain of 40K fluff. Forget Mat Ward. McNeill's ludicrous vision of the Codex Astartes ran counter to literally everything ever published about it, yet because of him, many players think the Codex Astartes is some kind of idiotic "If A, Then B" instruction manual for fighting. Like a "Warfighting For Dummies" or something. Just the prologue to the first Ultramarines novel is so mind-numbingly stupid that anyone who has ever studied even the least bit of combat theory or tactics could tell you there's no way the Ultramarines could (or would) ever be that restrictive, and still be the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters".

Necrons as space pharaohs. What was wrong with angry Egyptian space terminators which were the mindless remnants of a long-dead civilization? Billions strong "destroy the universe" is another example of +10 Grimdark.

I'm sure there's plenty of other stuff, but I'm tired.

I actually agree with all of this. It's bull that Necrons could just turn around and shatter their own Gods too, just because they're that awesome !one!

Consistency!

Most of the Black Library authors suffer from 'fan boy' syndrome, and in my opinion, and my opinion alone, most are awful authors.

One will write that a single squad of SPASS MAHEENs can capture a planet. One will write that a Commissar with a chain sword and plot protection can take out a Space Marine by himself.
One will write that a power sword will pierce Astartes power armour, but one author will write that power armour can withstand artillery strikes and warp blasts.

One will write that Chaos can be beaten just by praying, one will write that Chaos is infinite, and will consume all.
One will write that a lasgun kicks like a mule, while one writes that a lasgun has no recoil.

I could go on, but you get the point. I just wish Black Library just went, 'right, this is the sanctioned fluff. Stick to it!'

On a side note: Most of the Black Library authors seem to go all 'BIG GUNS AND GRIM DARK AND DARK GRIM AND BIG GUNS!' They don't know how to write an actual, decent military-set science fiction story. They all seem to think we'll 11 years old, too.

For example, I read in one awful Imperial Guard novel that some random Guardsman, had somehow gotten his hands on a Leman Russ tank, and was somehow driving the tank, and firing its main gun from up in the tank's capola!

Unfortunately, most Black Library fluff falls under inconsistent, author-makes-up-his-own-mind fluff, as opposed to a decent, military, science fiction story written by an author that actually knows how military structure, vehicles and weapons work, and whom can combine these into a decent piece of fiction.

I'm also unsure why Black Library will put things like death, gore, torture, rape, and general 'orrible stuff in there books, but they won't let anyone say, 'fu*k.'

I would make it consistent so that it is not changed every few years.

squidhills wrote:
I'd bring back the Squats.

Wait, wait... hear me out before you start throwing sharp things.

I'd bring them back as abhumans in the IoM, rather than as their own race. As the only race that was descended from humans, they never had enough of a 'proper' xeno vibe for me. Heck, back in 1st edition they weren't their own race at all, but were classified as abhumans. So bring them back as abhuman auxiliaries, like ratlings and ogryns.

That doesn't sound too bad, does it?

Squats are already abhumans. They were among a long list of abhumans provided in the 6th edition core rules on page 404.

 Tower75 wrote:
Consistency!

Most of the Black Library authors suffer from 'fan boy' syndrome, and in my opinion, and my opinion alone, most are awful authors.

One will wright that a single squad of SPASS MAHEENs can capture a planet. One will wright that a Commissar with a chain sword and plot protection can take out a Space Marine by himself.
One will wright that a power sword will pierce Astartes power armour, but one author will write that power armour can withstand artillery strikes and warp blasts.

One will write that Chaos can be beaten just by praying, one will write that Chaos is infinite, and will consume all.
One will write that a lasgun kicks like a mule, while one writes that a lasgun has no recoil.

I could go on, but you get the point. I just wish Black Library just went, 'right, this is the sanctioned fluff. Stick to it!'

On a side note: Most of the Black Library authors seem to go all 'BIG GUNS AND GRIM DARK AND DARK GRIM AND BIG GUNS!' They don't know how to write an actual, decent military-set science fiction story. They all seem to think we'll 11 years old, too.

For example, I read in one awful Imperial Guard novel that some random Guardsman, had somehow gotten his hands on a Leman Russ tank, and was somehow driving the tank, and firing its main gun from up in the tank's capola!

Unfortunately, most Black Library fluff falls under inconsistent, author-makes-up-his-own-mind fluff, as opposed to a decent, military, science fiction story written by an author that actually knows how military structure, vehicles and weapons work, and whom can combine these into a decent piece of fiction.

I'm also unsure why Black Library will put things like death, gore, torture, rape, and general 'orrible stuff in there books, but they won't let anyone say, 'fu*k.'

I've changed my mind - I vote for everything Tower just said.

 liquidjoshi wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Orks as reproducing via bonk. I never minded the idea of Orks as reproducing through spores, it was when GW went stupid and made them infinitely reproducing though combat to give them +10 Grimdark that the Ork fluff was ruined. Orks were supposed to be the universe's comic relief, not one of its biggest threats. Orks were a threat every so often because a leader would finally emerge and unite a bunch of them. Not because they eventually just poofed enough boyz.

Centurions. Awful fluff, awful models. This is literally a unit that doesn't belong in the universe. It serves no purpose in the Space Marine armory, and thus would have never had any purpose for development. It's anathema to the way Space Marines fight in the fluff.

Dan Abnett's Legion. Nothing good happened there. Twin primarchs, Perpetuals. The Cabal. The Alpha Legion as pre-heresy sneaky Mission Impossible Marines, etc. That book ruined the Alpha Legion fluff, and sent them on a never-ending downward spiral of stupid, where authors attempted to one-up eachother finding a new way for the Alpha Legion to do anything other than actually be Space Marines.

Acts of Faith. The Sacred Rites from 2E made the Sisters of Battle religious zealots that fit within the fluff of the 40K universe. Acts of Faith made them D&D clerics in a universe with no actual divine magic. Ruined their fluff.

Graham McNeill. The real villain of 40K fluff. Forget Mat Ward. McNeill's ludicrous vision of the Codex Astartes ran counter to literally everything ever published about it, yet because of him, many players think the Codex Astartes is some kind of idiotic "If A, Then B" instruction manual for fighting. Like a "Warfighting For Dummies" or something. Just the prologue to the first Ultramarines novel is so mind-numbingly stupid that anyone who has ever studied even the least bit of combat theory or tactics could tell you there's no way the Ultramarines could (or would) ever be that restrictive, and still be the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters".

Necrons as space pharaohs. What was wrong with angry Egyptian space terminators which were the mindless remnants of a long-dead civilization? Billions strong "destroy the universe" is another example of +10 Grimdark.

I'm sure there's plenty of other stuff, but I'm tired.

I actually agree with all of this. It's bull that Necrons could just turn around and shatter their own Gods too, just because they're that awesome !one!

Well to be honest either outcome was terrible . You either had gods that were daemon gods but better because they were in the real realm or you get the necrons that kill their own gods because why not?

In general, I actually agree with Vet here on all but one point. Acts of Faith. I enjoy their ambiguous form where it could be claimed to be divine, or using the warp unkowingly, or, better yet, it just being the sisters pushing themself to maximum potential by way of believe (that being said I dislike it when the ambiguity of it all is radically tossed aside).

What I'd change? really hard one. For starters, chaos make sure to keep fluff for all the varying other gods that are lessers but still there. Next, scrub out 90% of the wolf that is within the SW codex. Next, abolish necrons and limit tyranids. I like necrons design but in general they are just so generally better than everything it isn't even intriguing. Tyranids have that entire claim of WE HAVE SWALLOWED GALAXIES FEAR US! At least with chaos (which is a serious threat) it takes 13 black crusades that are all slowly weakening the imperium to mess stuff up. Bring back legions! Warbands can exist but don't say only warbands are left and then start talking about a legion. Return the Doomrider! many more things would be easy to list but I'm done for now

Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'd miss them

Tyranids but only from a time perspective. It should take years for even a single planet to be stripped bare.

I like the idea of them being a slow creeping threat rather than just nom-nom quickly and move on.

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

in the competitive scene, I agree that Tau and Eldar are more popular. That's only a fraction of the total player base though. That Pendulum may swing back when they are updated though.

I'll give you that the Tyranids need a bit of fluff rewrite, but not a total squatting. I don't see how you can not like their models though!

I'd retcon, the retcon of the 13th black crusade. If you want grimdark, actually let the bad guys win for once.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

You must be a blast a parties.

squidhills wrote:
I'd bring back the Squats.

Wait, wait... hear me out before you start throwing sharp things.

I'd bring them back as abhumans in the IoM, rather than as their own race. As the only race that was descended from humans, they never had enough of a 'proper' xeno vibe for me. Heck, back in 1st edition they weren't their own race at all, but were classified as abhumans. So bring them back as abhuman auxiliaries, like ratlings and ogryns.

That doesn't sound too bad, does it?

Squats always were abhumans.

 buddha wrote:
Tyranids but only from a time perspective. It should take years for even a single planet to be stripped bare.

I like the idea of them being a slow creeping threat rather than just nom-nom quickly and move on.

I would really like that too. Aside from a realism factor, it would give a reason for the Tyranids to defended something, which would add some depth to the scenarios you could play with them.

I'd Retcon the sizes of forces like the Space Marines so their 'tales of greatness' don't seem like stupid fluff boy writing. I wouldn't mind a 'Chapter of Marines' mauling ten times their number in enemies if they numbered a bit more. Ideas like two Craftworlds of Eldar being stopped by 1,000 Marines is dumb and makes the fluff not worth even listening to.

I'd also change other mental fanboi fluff like those given to the Necrons recently and the idea of how Tyranids maintain themselves( their current fluff is a complete nightmare of bio-failure).

I'd retcon is that all forces are 1,000 times larger than they are so that a galactic war the size the fluff says it is makes sense.

Bring back Grey Knights as the chamber militant of the Ordo Malleus only, pump their numbers back up to the epic levels they used to be.
Secondly I'd retcon 80% of what Ward said about the Ultramarines, reduce the hate by a large amount.
For my next trick, I'd make Space Wolves a bit less furry, and Slaanesh a bit more kinky, druggie and loud.

I'd retcon the "Traitor Legions are no longer Legions" stupidity. Sure, not nearly as organised as before, but how come could they pose any significant threat to any other faction if most of them were reduced to a number of small warbands? Iron Warriors and Word Bearers should set the example. Hell, their Primarchs still command them more or less directly.

The worst part of Necrons (aka, 3rd edition necrons) got retconned, so most things are good for me.

Though if I had to pick a current thing, I'd retcon the retcon of the 13th black crusade having broken the skies an planet of cadia and broken from the warpgate.

I'd retcon the size of Space Marine chapters. They need to be 10,000 at least to do what they do in the fluff. I mean if 1,000 Marines attacked a planet, they would just be murdered. Even going by the 100 guard = 1 SM, there are plenty of places where 100,000 guard show up. Space Marines either need more emphasis on being Special ops assassins, or need to be larger. A simple "hold the line!" thing for Space Marines simply doesn't work mathematically. A full Ork horde running at a line of Imperial fists would bulldoze the Marines into the dirt, because a few hundred thousand plus Orks can easily kill a Chapter just based on numbers. Also, the battle of Macragge frustrates me, because a full (and huge at that) Tyranid swarm would wipe out the Ultramarines. The battle would be so much better if the SPace battle happens first and destroys most of the fleet, but a few ships launch some spores at the planet before dying.

@Peregrine: I'm pretty sure Nids would be missed. Why the hate? Is there some local Nid player who's beaten you a few too many times? Nids are one of the oldest armies, one of the most well established and popular, and way too important to the fluff to just get removed.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

Grossly unfair comment, who made you be all end all of taste? I love the idea of Tyranids, really starship troopersque. Until the New (And terrible) Necron fluff came out they where the most believable end game race. I also like their models...

I'm glad to see I'm not the only one that things a lot of stupidity comes from the size vs fluff of the Space Marine Chapters

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

"Well, nobody with any taste"

Stopped reading right there.

Way to blow smoke up your ass and lower the opinion of anyone who disagree in a single sentence. You haven't even explained why they shouldn't be in the game, which makes your final score;

3/10, would not read again.

 Imposter101 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

"Well, nobody with any taste"

Stopped reading right there.

Way to blow smoke up your ass and lower the opinion of anyone who disagree in a single sentence. You haven't even explained why they shouldn't be in the game, which makes your final score;

3/10, would not read again.

Actually he's explained before, he dislikes them because he'd rather this game be a more serious, less 'sci-fi fantasy' shooter with the xenos races being trimmed down to their less fantastical points.

 Psienesis wrote:


Squats always were abhumans.

Yes, technically they were abhumans. But back in early 2nd Ed, they were treated as their own separate race. They had their own army list (Black Codex still counts!) had their own psychic powers cards, had racial animosity against Orks, and so on. They weren't the Admech or the Space Marines ("We have our own army lists and models, but we're totes Imperials, yo"). There were nods to the fact that they started out as human, but their presentation was clear: Squats were a separate race and faction from the Imperium. And because the guys doing 3rd Ed couldn't translate the Epic Squats into a 40k version, they got... well, Squatted. Now it's way too late to bring them in as their own faction again (GW has a hard enough time keeping up with the armies it has), but some recognition in the IG codex would be nice. A few models, maybe.

I want more than a throwaway line in the BRB, dammit.

I would retcon Necrons and bring back 3rd edition. I would much rather have the scary kill everything version than the our lords have touchy feelings version. That and Tomb Kings in space is lame and boring

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

"Well, nobody with any taste"

Stopped reading right there.

Way to blow smoke up your ass and lower the opinion of anyone who disagree in a single sentence. You haven't even explained why they shouldn't be in the game, which makes your final score;

3/10, would not read again.

Actually he's explained before, he dislikes them because he'd rather this game be a more serious, less 'sci-fi fantasy' shooter with the xenos races being trimmed down to their less fantastical points.

I dread to see what he thinks of Chaos...

 Imposter101 wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Sasori wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

I'm sure nobody would miss the most popular Xenos army in the game.

Well, nobody with any taste at least.

(Also, I suspect Tau and Eldar are more popular these days given how well they win games compared to Tyranids.)

"Well, nobody with any taste"

Stopped reading right there.

Way to blow smoke up your ass and lower the opinion of anyone who disagree in a single sentence. You haven't even explained why they shouldn't be in the game, which makes your final score;

3/10, would not read again.

Actually he's explained before, he dislikes them because he'd rather this game be a more serious, less 'sci-fi fantasy' shooter with the xenos races being trimmed down to their less fantastical points.

I dread to see what he thinks of Chaos...

Or orks...

Da krimson barun wrote:
*SNIP*

Or any xenos for that matter.

 Peregrine wrote:
Goodbye Tyranids. Their fluff from beginning to end is stupid, their models are ugly, and their entire concept is out of place in a game of battles between armies. When they are gone nobody will miss them.

Pretty sure that isn't true.

Just as I am also sure that retconning an entire army out of existence and rendering the money consumers spent on the models and rulebooks useless just to satisfy one's own conception of how a setting should operate is entirely selfish and even amoral.

I'd retcon all of the objectively bad parts of the fifth edition codex (Unlike the plebeian and uneducated cowards who take an all or nothing approach to the changes, I can acknowledge some were good or interesting). Like Dolmen Gates, or the Overlord who has tea parties with captured Marines.

Anyway, if the Necrons united, no force in the galaxy could begin to stop them. It can barely stop them now. I find it infinitely amusing when profligates admire the 5e Necron codex for "de-sueifying" the Necrons, when honestly? They are more powerful than ever.

 SarisKhan wrote:
I'd retcon the "Traitor Legions are no longer Legions" stupidity.

To be fair, that's the way it always was.

They engaged in a frontal assault on a fortified target, both sides ground eachother to a pulp before the traitors' morale broke, and they fled. The majority of casualties in pitched battles are sustained in retreat. The Ultramarines spend seven years then Scouring the traitors from the galaxy and driving them to flee into the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom. The traitor Legions were effectively destroyed. Two of them ceased to exist within a few years. The rest spent the next several millennia battling eachother, and the Imperium.

It takes hundreds of years for Chaos to gather enough power to even attempt a Black Crusade, and all of them have failed, no matter what ADB likes to believe, lol.

The reality is, the traitor legions have never been the significant threat. Chaos is the significant threat, not the remnants of the Legions. Chaos is insidious. It is lurking doom, corruption. The Inquisition is so relentless because of it. The remnants of the Chaos Marines just occasionally show up to steal all the glory like the regular Space Marines do from the Imperial Guard.

Gentlemen, let's keep the army bashing to a minimal please. I understand some might not like other armies for whatever reason, but we have to learn to accept them as part of the hobby.
There are a lot of things I agree with here in regards of consistancy within the fluff, but I don't feel any race should be retconned out of existance. Maybe made slightly more fair and what not, but not completely removed.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Orks as reproducing via bonk. I never minded the idea of Orks as reproducing through spores, it was when GW went stupid and made them infinitely reproducing though combat to give them +10 Grimdark that the Ork fluff was ruined. Orks were supposed to be the universe's comic relief, not one of its biggest threats. Orks were a threat every so often because a leader would finally emerge and unite a bunch of them. Not because they eventually just poofed enough boyz.

Centurions. Awful fluff, awful models. This is literally a unit that doesn't belong in the universe. It serves no purpose in the Space Marine armory, and thus would have never had any purpose for development. It's anathema to the way Space Marines fight in the fluff.

Dan Abnett's Legion. Nothing good happened there. Twin primarchs, Perpetuals. The Cabal. The Alpha Legion as pre-heresy sneaky Mission Impossible Marines, etc. That book ruined the Alpha Legion fluff, and sent them on a never-ending downward spiral of stupid, where authors attempted to one-up eachother finding a new way for the Alpha Legion to do anything other than actually be Space Marines.

Acts of Faith. The Sacred Rites from 2E made the Sisters of Battle religious zealots that fit within the fluff of the 40K universe. Acts of Faith made them D&D clerics in a universe with no actual divine magic. Ruined their fluff.

Graham McNeill. The real villain of 40K fluff. Forget Mat Ward. McNeill's ludicrous vision of the Codex Astartes ran counter to literally everything ever published about it, yet because of him, many players think the Codex Astartes is some kind of idiotic "If A, Then B" instruction manual for fighting. Like a "Warfighting For Dummies" or something. Just the prologue to the first Ultramarines novel is so mind-numbingly stupid that anyone who has ever studied even the least bit of combat theory or tactics could tell you there's no way the Ultramarines could (or would) ever be that restrictive, and still be the "greatest of all Space Marine chapters".

Necrons as space pharaohs. What was wrong with angry Egyptian space terminators which were the mindless remnants of a long-dead civilization? Billions strong "destroy the universe" is another example of +10 Grimdark.

I'm sure there's plenty of other stuff, but I'm tired.

Centurions are actually pretty cool. The Codex art for example makes them look pretty badass. It's just the stupid models and the fact that they don't have any armor on the back. And the whole 'Space Marine inside a Space Marine'. But just remove those two bits and give them longer legs and they'd be pretty damn cool. They're like a lite Dreadnaught with no need for a critically injured battle-brother.

Also, I have no idea what books you're reading Tower. A good chunk of the Black Library is completely solid and doesn't cater to eleven year old children. You just avoid the books. Plus, the inconsistency is actually nice as thanks to GW's canon policy, there's no real reason to bother about canon at all. Wave off the stuff you don't like with the 'full of lies' bit on the canon policy.

Also, I'd probably recon the Horus Heresy series for it to start anew. Give us five books about Horus and the future traitors during the Great Crusade, and better-constructed reasons for them to turn traitor. Introduce us better to the major non-primarch Space Marines. Just more time. Horus Rising was a fantastic book, and how McNeil steamrolled it with False Gods irks me since reading it. It's a well written book, but the start of the Horus Heresy feels far too rushed for us to really get to know and love these characters. Especially compared to how it crawls forward at a snail's pace now.

I might also want the Grey Knights retconned a bit. Keep with the loyalist members of the traitor legions founding them. But change the Grey Knights a bit. Give them a bit more of a cool BPRD feel rather than the current one where they just come off as complete jerks. They're not really sympathetic characters despite the fluff trying to present them as such. Just have the mind be made up on rather if they're utter jerks that we're not supposed to like or sympathetic yet still dogmatic protagonists. The current GK however just give me mixed signals on alignment, especially with the Ward changes.

I'd personally rather the Grey Knights changed to a purely heroic bit, something like the Legion of the Damned. When they show up, they save the damn day- period. That's it. Any executions carried out should be done by the other members of the Ordo Malleus, not the GK unless you really want to drive home that they're no better than Chaos.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 SarisKhan wrote:
I'd retcon the "Traitor Legions are no longer Legions" stupidity.

To be fair, that's the way it always was.

They engaged in a frontal assault on a fortified target, both sides ground eachother to a pulp before the traitors' morale broke, and they fled. The majority of casualties in pitched battles are sustained in retreat. The Ultramarines spend seven years then Scouring the traitors from the galaxy and driving them to flee into the Eye of Terror and the Maelstrom. The traitor Legions were effectively destroyed. Two of them ceased to exist within a few years. The rest spent the next several millennia battling eachother, and the Imperium.

It takes hundreds of years for Chaos to gather enough power to even attempt a Black Crusade, and all of them have failed, no matter what ADB likes to believe, lol.

The reality is, the traitor legions have never been the significant threat. Chaos is the significant threat, not the remnants of the Legions. Chaos is insidious. It is lurking doom, corruption. The Inquisition is so relentless because of it. The remnants of the Chaos Marines just occasionally show up to steal all the glory like the regular Space Marines do from the Imperial Guard.

Except the fluff openly claims he was victorious in them all . Just because they don't immediately spew out and destro the Imperium doesn't mean their cause was over. That is an overarching ploy (and I don't think they would hate it if it happened earlier than the 13th) but it was all a gradual build up. Oh and then ret conne the 13th crusade cause why not


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Imposter101 wrote:

Da krimson barun wrote:
*SNIP*

Or any xenos for that matter.

Or the Imperium with their religious devotion and usage of the warp for travel and the sorts. Or well okay actually all of Warhammer 40k considering it is well... sci fantasy and always has been (to be technical he also has problems with titans due to the fact they are unrealistic, the notion of cc in general, and the WW 1 era tanks as realistically they were actually TERRIBLE designs). Humerously enough, I actually can agree with him on many points about both necrons as well as Tyranids. I like my nids but... first of all traveling the universe gobbling galaxies? A bit OTT maybe? Also it's kinda hard to think oh chaos and Necrons are such a threat when they are like we'd need to conscript 1000% of the human population to fight them. Necrons, whilst there are many flaws and in many places are more stupidly broken then before, at least now they don't actually have true gods running around in the real world and aren't pretty much metallic nids. (I say this all the while knowing that if I were to build 3 new armies one would be nids )

Oh, and another thing to add to the list- the Relic games. The Blood Ravens have resulted in nothing besides a cluster %#^%# of bad fluff, stupid fan theories, and simply serve nothing good for W40K besides an unnecessary headache.

I would eliminate Tyranids. I find their fluff lacking, and I think that their net effect on the setting, not to mention the game, is detrimental rather than productive.

 Imposter101 wrote:
I dread to see what he thinks of Chaos...

Actually I like Chaos, as long as you get rid of most of the demon units and put them back in CSM instead of the stupid "use your WHFB army in 40k" system we have now. Chaos has an important role in the story, has lots of interesting artistic potential, and fights like a proper army on the tabletop. They might not be strictly realistic, but they mostly make sense as long as you accept the magic/corruption aspect. And since it's explicitly magic it doesn't have to obey the normal laws of reality.

My problem with Tyranids is that they have none of the redeeming qualities of Chaos. Their fluff is fundamentally stupid (no, an alien swarm from outside the galaxy is not going to eat our DNA and use it, nor will anything with any interest in eating us be able to grow armor that can deal with tank shots, and it certainly won't be able to ignore conservation of mass/energy to literally eat all the biological matter on a planet and turn it into more Tyranids). Their purpose in the story is minimal at best, since they're nothing more than a faceless devouring swarm with no characters, no heroes to identify with, no villains to hate, no goals to support or oppose, just mindless consumption*. From a story perspective they're about as interesting as writing a story about the weeds in your yard. And finally their models are just plain awful and don't fit the aesthetic of a 40k battle at all.


*This, by the way, is why the new Necron fluff is so much better than the old stuff. Yes, it has its stupid bits, but at least it's better than the old "metal Tyranids" version where they're just another mindless devouring swarm.

Ollanius Pius was not a Perpetual. He was just a man in the wrong place at the right time.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Ollanius Pius was not a Perpetual. He was just a man in the wrong place at the right time.

Perpetual was fluff that was just horrid though.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
I dread to see what he thinks of Chaos...

Actually I like Chaos, as long as you get rid of most of the demon units and put them back in CSM instead of the stupid "use your WHFB army in 40k" system we have now. Chaos has an important role in the story, has lots of interesting artistic potential, and fights like a proper army on the tabletop. They might not be strictly realistic, but they mostly make sense as long as you accept the magic/corruption aspect. And since it's explicitly magic it doesn't have to obey the normal laws of reality.

My problem with Tyranids is that they have none of the redeeming qualities of Chaos. Their fluff is fundamentally stupid (no, an alien swarm from outside the galaxy is not going to eat our DNA and use it, nor will anything with any interest in eating us be able to grow armor that can deal with tank shots, and it certainly won't be able to ignore conservation of mass/energy to literally eat all the biological matter on a planet and turn it into more Tyranids). Their purpose in the story is minimal at best, since they're nothing more than a faceless devouring swarm with no characters, no heroes to identify with, no villains to hate, no goals to support or oppose, just mindless consumption*. From a story perspective they're about as interesting as writing a story about the weeds in your yard. And finally their models are just plain awful and don't fit the aesthetic of a 40k battle at all.


*This, by the way, is why the new Necron fluff is so much better than the old stuff. Yes, it has its stupid bits, but at least it's better than the old "metal Tyranids" version where they're just another mindless devouring swarm.

Chaos is also nice as it fits in nicely with the old Lovecraftian concepts with Daemons just being ideas and emotions incarnated as an extradimensional eldritch abomination. Just that some of the Daemon stuff is stupid. Eldritch abominations should not be using chariots. Daemon engines are cool as corrupted machines with the possible pilot (although not always) fused with the machine as a single living organism. But stuff like chariots makes no damn sense and belongs in Fantasy Battles.

 Peregrine wrote:

My problem with Tyranids is that they have none of the redeeming qualities of Chaos. Their fluff is fundamentally stupid (no, an alien swarm from outside the galaxy is not going to eat our DNA and use it, nor will anything with any interest in eating us be able to grow armor that can deal with tank shots, and it certainly won't be able to ignore conservation of mass/energy to literally eat all the biological matter on a planet and turn it into more Tyranids). Their purpose in the story is minimal at best, since they're nothing more than a faceless devouring swarm with no characters, no heroes to identify with, no villains to hate, no goals to support or oppose, just mindless consumption*. From a story perspective they're about as interesting as writing a story about the weeds in your yard. And finally their models are just plain awful and don't fit the aesthetic of a 40k battle at all.

Could not. agree. more.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Ollanius Pius was not a Perpetual. He was just a man in the wrong place at the right time.

So then would you continue to potray him as a myth or would you bring his canonicity into the fold completely?

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Ollanius Pius was not a Perpetual. He was just a man in the wrong place at the right time.

So then would you continue to potray him as a myth or would you bring his canonicity into the fold completely?

The way I see it, it doesn't matter who Pius was. If you believe the story that he stood up to Horus when nobody else could, then he is fully deserving of the reverence bestowed upon him. If you don't believe the story, he was just a man, and it doesn't matter how he died anyways. It's the idea of Ollanius Pius that makes him iconic. Not because he was an immortal bro of the Emperor, but because he was the smallest being making the greatest sacrifice he could.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Ollanius Pius was not a Perpetual. He was just a man in the wrong place at the right time.

So then would you continue to potray him as a myth or would you bring his canonicity into the fold completely?

The way I see it, it doesn't matter who Pius was. If you believe the story that he stood up to Horus when nobody else could, then he is fully deserving of the reverence bestowed upon him. If you don't believe the story, he was just a man, and it doesn't matter how he died anyways. It's the idea of Ollanius Pius that makes him iconic. Not because he was an immortal bro of the Emperor, but because he was the smallest being making the greatest sacrifice he could.

Soo... you're saying he's a symbol?

Like Batman?

It would retcon that horrible piece of fluff where some minor Tau world managed to out-adapt a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

I'd retcon:

-Anything written by Matt Ward
-50% of everything to do with the Ultramarines (Not everything, I still need a faction to hate)
-The Sanguinor
-The bit about GK being mini primarchs (wth, GK codex?)
-Enslaved C'tan (Living Gods were awesome )
-The Armless Failure (I want him to be badass, but he's just embarassing)
-The poorly constructed CSM codex (I would like some internal balance and competitiveness )

I think I'd retcon the Bloodtide slightly, so that the Sisters don't come off as sacrificial lambs for the GK.
Those Ork rockers would also be fun to have back.

 Selym wrote:
I'd retcon:

-Anything written by Matt Ward

But he wrote some good SoB fluff. :(

Not everything the guy wrote was crap. Some of it was, but not all.

Change the Necron's ancient enemy to the Orks.

Those guys seriously should be the antithesis and ultimate enemies of each other. Eldar have enough problems, and their history didn't need shoehorning of Space Khemri into it.

The decision to write the Heresy Series.

It would be left a dark time of legend and would also be a lot better for my bank account.

The change in necrons, they were alot cooler as minons of the star gods.

Honestly I'd change alot, for starters id keep the eldar pantheon alive to give the chaos gods actual competition in the warp, since eldar are essentially elves I would keep the dying race theme but put less emphasis on it. (were dying is all black library authors and codex writers ever seem to talk about and it gets so old.) for space Marines there fluff should be toned down from their current Mary sue standing to actually being a defeat able army struggling to keep the imperium alive. Take away the plot armour and make them fallible and perhaps more likeable and give them some serious defeats so I know when I pick up a book spacemarines don't win just because they're space Marines. Honestly chaos should make it beyond cadia and start attacking the galaxy at large too. Give abbadon some fresh succeses and make him someone to be feared.
going back to eldar id like to see their fluff expanded and id like to see them wih a bit more of a hopeful outlook (most eldar think they can beat slaanesh in the end and many youths are hoping to reestablish their empire which means some have to see hope.)
consistency in black library has already been addressed so no need to go into that. Though id like to say id retconn most of the 5th and 6th edition battle scenes as they're so aburdly over the top and one sided there's no excitement to them. The necron codex is a good example I think, where the necrons are able to beat impossible odds just because. And I shouldn't even have to say why GK fluff is over the top. I think that armies that suffer hard fought wins/losses are far more interesting than these stories gws been coming out with over the last several years. (sorry if this doesn't all make sense in really really tired. And I tend to ramble and blend thoughts together.)

Id fix the space marine training process because the time it takes to develop a Marine and train him and get him through the scouts dosnt add up to to the time it takes companies to recover.

I can only see the space wolves and Black Templars being able to make up battle losses in any resonable time. Id personal make all scouts similar to the space wolves because id want veterans doing my scouting not rookies and id have the neophytes trained like the . Master apappreciate style.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It would retcon that horrible piece of fluff where some minor Tau world managed to out-adapt a Tyranid Hive Fleet.

Except it was rather clever, they used them to adapt to kroot, lured them out and then killed them with something completely different from what they were fighting for months on end.

 Arcsquad12 wrote:
Ollanius Pius was not a Perpetual. He was just a man in the wrong place at the right time.

This. This! This, this, a thousand, billion, infinity times THIS!

gilamonster wrote:
Id fix the space marine training process because the time it takes to develop a Marine and train him and get him through the scouts dosnt add up to to the time it takes companies to recover. .

How so?

Training new Marines is a constant process. They don't start a new one when there's a dead Marine. Every matured Marine can create two Marines (one with his removed chest progenoid, and a second when he dies). Thus assuming the Chapter recovers at least half of its fallen Marines, it will always have more geneseed than it needs to stay at a constant rate of replacement. If the Chapter recovers more than half, it will slowly stockpile geneseed. Established chapters will probably have large stocks of geneseed.

We know it takes approximately 8-10 years to make a Marine (process starts at 8-10, finishes around 18). So there are more recruits than just what's in the Scout company. The Scout company is constantly getting replacements too, as the recruits reach the 16-18 year old age where they've physically matured enough to be combat ready. And the Scouts don't immediately get promoted to the line companies at 18 when they get the black carapace. That's just the earliest they might be promotable.

There's a fair amount of consistency to the recruitment process. Remember, Space Marines don't die as often as it sometimes seen. Chapters aren't fighting constantly. They still have to travel between warzones, or there may be a lot of low intensity conflicts that don't incur a lot of casualties. Plus, Space Marines are very resilient and can recover from pretty grievous wounds. What might "kill" them on the tabletop doesn't always kill them in the fluff.

I'd make it clearer in the fluff re: Black Crusades that the goal isn't always Terra, because quite a few people still struggle with that concept.

MarsNZ wrote:
I'd make it clearer in the fluff re: Black Crusades that the goal isn't always Terra, because quite a few people still struggle with that concept.

Yes, even I as a chaos player often miss the point of Abaddon the Armless' various excursions...

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

gilamonster wrote:
Id fix the space marine training process because the time it takes to develop a Marine and train him and get him through the scouts dosnt add up to to the time it takes companies to recover. .

How so?

Training new Marines is a constant process. They don't start a new one when there's a dead Marine. Every matured Marine can create two Marines (one with his removed chest progenoid, and a second when he dies). Thus assuming the Chapter recovers at least half of its fallen Marines, it will always have more geneseed than it needs to stay at a constant rate of replacement. If the Chapter recovers more than half, it will slowly stockpile geneseed. Established chapters will probably have large stocks of geneseed.

We know it takes approximately 8-10 years to make a Marine (process starts at 8-10, finishes around 18). So there are more recruits than just what's in the Scout company. The Scout company is constantly getting replacements too, as the recruits reach the 16-18 year old age where they've physically matured enough to be combat ready. And the Scouts don't immediately get promoted to the line companies at 18 when they get the black carapace. That's just the earliest they might be promotable.

There's a fair amount of consistency to the recruitment process. Remember, Space Marines don't die as often as it sometimes seen. Chapters aren't fighting constantly. They still have to travel between warzones, or there may be a lot of low intensity conflicts that don't incur a lot of casualties. Plus, Space Marines are very resilient and can recover from pretty grievous wounds. What might "kill" them on the tabletop doesn't always kill them in the fluff.

I find the fluff inconsistent when it comes to how many casualties space marines take its stated the dont fight frontline but most of the fluff ive read sees them doing the opposite. Taken in to account that some scouts die and only 100 scouts are training at a time and they have to supply 9 companies I just don't believe its possible to sustain a chapter using standard codex recruitment.

gilamonster wrote:

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

gilamonster wrote:
Id fix the space marine training process because the time it takes to develop a Marine and train him and get him through the scouts dosnt add up to to the time it takes companies to recover. .

How so?

Training new Marines is a constant process. They don't start a new one when there's a dead Marine. Every matured Marine can create two Marines (one with his removed chest progenoid, and a second when he dies). Thus assuming the Chapter recovers at least half of its fallen Marines, it will always have more geneseed than it needs to stay at a constant rate of replacement. If the Chapter recovers more than half, it will slowly stockpile geneseed. Established chapters will probably have large stocks of geneseed.

We know it takes approximately 8-10 years to make a Marine (process starts at 8-10, finishes around 18). So there are more recruits than just what's in the Scout company. The Scout company is constantly getting replacements too, as the recruits reach the 16-18 year old age where they've physically matured enough to be combat ready. And the Scouts don't immediately get promoted to the line companies at 18 when they get the black carapace. That's just the earliest they might be promotable.

There's a fair amount of consistency to the recruitment process. Remember, Space Marines don't die as often as it sometimes seen. Chapters aren't fighting constantly. They still have to travel between warzones, or there may be a lot of low intensity conflicts that don't incur a lot of casualties. Plus, Space Marines are very resilient and can recover from pretty grievous wounds. What might "kill" them on the tabletop doesn't always kill them in the fluff.

I find the fluff inconsistent when it comes to how many casualties space marines take its stated the dont fight frontline but most of the fluff ive read sees them doing the opposite. Taken in to account that some scouts die and only 100 scouts are training at a time and they have to supply 9 companies I just don't believe its possible to sustain a chapter using standard codex recruitment.

Agreed. possiably the best approuch would be to make the 10th company another reserve company and list scouts as an "Auxilleria" with unspecified numbers.

I would retconn:

Marines:
Their numbers. I would go with 10000 per chapter. Still silly, but way better than 1000 guys patrolling the galaxy.
Their personality. More zealot monks, instruments of the most brutal tyranny ever and killing machines. Less "we are the good guys".
Black Templars hating psykers because the Edict of Nikaea again.
White Scars getting back their self-mutilation and skull-collecting rituals
The Sanguinor. Out with it. It is a cheap copy paste of a Living Saint. With nipples.
Grey Knights being the army of all inquisitors. They should be the last resort for the Ordo Malleus.
Flesh Eaters having disappeared.
Super Mega Master Kaldor Draigo.

Chaos:
Getting Chaos Undivided back again. Minor Gods, independent daemons... the infinite ways of Chaos.
The Lost and the Damned should get more stuff. There are billions of them for every Chaos Space Marine. And some of them are really cool in the background.
No more Failabbadon. Most crusades didn´t involve Abbadon at all. Create some cool Chaos leaders (some of them human instead of Astartes would be even better) and let them fail for 10000 years.
Malice back to business.

Tyranids:
Getting Genestealer Cults and Zoats back again.

Necrons:
Back to third edition or, even better, getting both newcrons and oldcrons as different factions.
Some C´tan survived and are still free. The Dragon on Mars, The Outsider...
The Enslavers won (or ended) the War in Heaven again.
The Old Ones are still alive, yet hidden. The Slann are back

The story:
Another vote for "Ollanius Pious was a man". Making him a perpetual absolutely breaks the character. What´s the point? He "sacrificed" himself for the Emperor? He is immortal, he was back to life in ten seconds. It cheapens the story to the point of making it utterly meaningless.
Perpetuals. Never existed.
Signus Prime being an astartes victory. It was not! The fight between Ka´Bhanda and Sanguinous was amazing as it was orignally written. They have broken it.
Alpharius and the Cabal. Getting Alpharius back to the Index Astartes.
Corax surviving the Drop-Site massacre thanks to the Alpha Legion. Aaargh...
Corax being fooled by the Alpha Legion regarding his experiments. Aaaaarghhh....
Alpharius turning traitor following orders from xenos then killing the xenos´ representative for no reason. Aaaaaaargh....
Alpha Legionaries killing each other as idiots while blindly following orders of someone they do not even know who he is any longer. Aaaaaaaaaargh....
Anything ever written about the survivals of the loyal Legions of the Drop-Site massacre. It reeks of mary-sueism.
Everything we know about the Lion´s motivations.

The Codex Astartes. Especially the way in which chapters are organised. The organisation in the Codex is probably the least effective way to organise an army ever.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Except it was rather clever, they used them to adapt to kroot, lured them out and then killed them with something completely different from what they were fighting for months on end.

The two main problems I've heard are that the Tau developed Kroot rifles to use pulse weaponry anyway and that the Tyranids did apparently very little when the Tau were almost completely unable to harm them while they collected several thousand Kroot rifles.

Personally I'd retcon the Narvhals, non-Warp based FTL in general (I just don't like it), the C'tan (at least the other magical stuff uses the Warp), the power of the big Tyranid beasties so that they're weaker (a single Tyranid taking down a Titan Legion seems a bit excessive to me) and making Daemons harder to summon (i.e. less in number) but much more powerful.

I would delete the SMs. They aren't all that exciting or fun to read about and pulling them out would give a lot more room for other fractions. Like you could fit in a lot more sister fluff, IG fluff, or even admech fluff.

nomotog wrote:
I would delete the SMs. They aren't all that exciting or fun to read about and pulling them out would give a lot more room for other fractions. Like you could fit in a lot more sister fluff, IG fluff, or even admech fluff.

I'd just tone down the loyal SM's prominence. Proper CSM's are badass though - they have the whole "Humanity created the most evil thing in the universe" vibe.

I would retcon most of the new GK fluff, I'm all for this army and I think the concept of it is brilliant, the Inquisitions secretive highly trained army that are used to combat the most dire of demonic incursions and even then they only send a squad of 10 tops.

However the way they are written in the codex doesn't represent this, they definitely seem to suffer from being written by an ultimate fan boy, just look at draigos fluf, carving a name onto a demon primarch? please gimme something slightly feasible to believe in GW

 tomball0706 wrote:
I would retcon most of the new GK fluff, I'm all for this army and I think the concept of it is brilliant, the Inquisitions secretive highly trained army that are used to combat the most dire of demonic incursions and even then they only send a squad of 10 tops.

However the way they are written in the codex doesn't represent this, they definitely seem to suffer from being written by an ultimate fan boy, just look at draigos fluf, carving a name onto a demon primarch? please gimme something slightly feasible to believe in GW

I think draigo is thuper kewl.

gilamonster wrote:I find the fluff inconsistent when it comes to how many casualties space marines take its stated the dont fight frontline but most of the fluff ive read sees them doing the opposite. Taken in to account that some scouts die and only 100 scouts are training at a time and they have to supply 9 companies I just don't believe its possible to sustain a chapter using standard codex recruitment.

Well you're mistaken in ta few places.

First, the Scout Company is not limited to 100.
Second, Chapters are often understrength.
Third, again, there are recruits in the pipeline replacing the casualties and promotions within the Scout company. Scouts represent 2 years of a ten year cycle (though Scouts can potentially serve past those 2 years). Which means there are dozens, if not hundreds, of recruits who are ages 8-15 who aren't even counted yet towards the ~1,000.

But Chapter casualties are rarely that severe, even in the fluff. Look at Helsreach. 100 Black Templars held off hundreds of thousands of Orks for two months before finally being wiped out. That's literally at a cost of a single Space Marine, per day, on average. Against an entire Waaaagh. And that's in a mission profile that Space Marines don't often find themselves in, defending a static position. An entire Tau army couldn't destroy one Space Marine Battle Company on Taros. And that's a battle the Marines lost. If you look at the Siege of Vraks, by comparison, the Dark Angels show up with 500 guys and turn the whole war on its head. Their first assault takes three casualties, all of whom were able to recover from wounds and return to battle eventually. After 18 years of siege and millions and millions of dead, the Space Marine casualties, across five chapters, was in the "hundreds", total. And this was a battle where 9 Chaos Marine warbands, a pile of daemons led by a daemon prince, and the baddest Bloodthirster possible showed up, lol.

And again, these are the kinds of battles that are so significant, they are talked about. Most of them are probably like the first raid the Dark Angels engaged in. Show up, hit hard, take objective, minor casualties, most of whom recover.

But it's also true that Space Marine Chapters also spend a fair amount of time not fighting, exactly because they've taken heavy casualties. In the space of hundreds, if not thousands of years, what's ten years to refit? Several of the Loyalist chapters in the Badab War just bailed out because they'd taken too many casualties.

 Selym wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I would delete the SMs. They aren't all that exciting or fun to read about and pulling them out would give a lot more room for other fractions. Like you could fit in a lot more sister fluff, IG fluff, or even admech fluff.

I'd just tone down the loyal SM's prominence. Proper CSM's are badass though - they have the whole "Humanity created the most evil thing in the universe" vibe.

Ya that world work rather well. Maybe something along the lines of most or all of the SM legions going to chaos or being destroyed.

nomotog wrote:

 Selym wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I would delete the SMs. They aren't all that exciting or fun to read about and pulling them out would give a lot more room for other fractions. Like you could fit in a lot more sister fluff, IG fluff, or even admech fluff.

I'd just tone down the loyal SM's prominence. Proper CSM's are badass though - they have the whole "Humanity created the most evil thing in the universe" vibe.

Ya that world work rather well. Maybe something along the lines of most or all of the SM legions going to chaos or being destroyed.

*calm, wistful voice*
I'd like that.
That'd be nice.

*evil voice*
AND THEN THE GALAXY SHALL BURN!!


(Sorry, I'm a heretic )

 Tower75 wrote:
Consistency!

Ah but you see Games Workshop is clever when it comes to this. All the Codices, the information in the rulebook, the BL books, FFG RPGs etc, all of that 'information' is meant to be read as half-truths, myths, legends, bloated stories - essentially it's possibly factually incorrect due to the same story being told again and again but by different people - thus it becomes distorted and different - two accounts of the same thing will most likely disagree with each other.

Personally I actually like that. Yes it's 'lazy' but it gives that element of personal choice in deciding what is what in 40k. I like that freedom, that I can turn around and say 'No, I don't think it was a Custodes who prevented Horus from striking down the Emperor on Horus's flagship. The fight actually took place in the Imperial Palace & it was an Imperial Army soldier by the name of Ollanius Pius who stepped in between Horus & the Emperor. Thus the Imperium, in the form of Pius, came to the Emperor's aide to protect him in his hour of need as the Emperor had protected humanity in it's hour(s) of need.'

 Pilau Rice wrote:
The decision to write the Heresy Series.

It would be left a dark time of legend...

I agree with this.

 Selym wrote:

nomotog wrote:

 Selym wrote:

nomotog wrote:
I would delete the SMs. They aren't all that exciting or fun to read about and pulling them out would give a lot more room for other fractions. Like you could fit in a lot more sister fluff, IG fluff, or even admech fluff.

I'd just tone down the loyal SM's prominence. Proper CSM's are badass though - they have the whole "Humanity created the most evil thing in the universe" vibe.

Ya that world work rather well. Maybe something along the lines of most or all of the SM legions going to chaos or being destroyed.

*calm, wistful voice*
I'd like that.
That'd be nice.

*evil voice*
AND THEN THE GALAXY SHALL BURN!!


(Sorry, I'm a heretic )

You would end up seeing a lot more of the SoB in that case. I don't think chaos would win automatically.

A heretic can dream, can't he?

 uk_crow wrote:
Necrons in their entirety, they are just a 'my dad can beat up your dad' army, who have no weaknesses, are immortal and are more numerous than humans. Complete bull, they define the phrase Mary Sue.

This

knas ser wrote:
Orks have gotten a little out of hand with ideas about how their technology is really fake but works because they believe it does. Silly. It was better when they were really crude and occasional savant like orks (mekboyz) built things that were brilliant hold-overs of technology buried in ork genes, but still were crude and unreliable even if fantastic. Now there's a lot of "perfect race" and "ork tech scales to meet the opposition". Not sure how much of that is cannon and how much is just people on forums, but orks are getting a bit too much

And that

Anything that makes the Chaos Marines look like "Misunderstood Heroes". I want my nazi warriors with only a dash of humanity to give them some relatability.

None of that "Not quite good guys" crap.

...would bring about a pretty strong insinuation of split-personalities in nurgle marines when they range from bromance to genocide at the drop of a hat.

I would love the old version of Ollanius Pius' last stand. I love that story, its symbol of IG and gave fluff something I miss when Im reading for example GK Codex or the last version of Ollanius story (I dont meen it badly, its just two completely different styles how to approach heroic genre for me).

And it reminds me Steven Erikson, so...

 chromedog wrote:
Change the marines back to the way they were in RT and lose the crusading space knights shtick.

Or make them hardcore Powered armour special forces that specialise in surgical strikes (no tanks) - walkers and power armour suits.

The other thing is that ARTILLERY does not belong on the tabletop in this scale. Remove it and make it off board stuff (that you have to pay for and make a roll for it to come on - like the orbital strikes that the daemon and witch hunters used to get.

Good call chromedog my friend from oz. You know your stuff. I was just flicking through the RT rulebook a few weeks ago and was stunned at how far my own head had moved from the original marine feel.
Artillery ruins guard, guard models are cool and they have the possibility of so many options without going for mass amounts of oversized guns that are out of place on a small battlefield.

But having those guns is fun as hell.

Troike wrote:retcon the Bloodtide

Yes. Along with other instances of SoB-bashing idiocy.

da001 wrote:I would retconn:

Marines:
Their numbers. I would go with 10000 per chapter. Still silly, but way better than 1000 guys patrolling the galaxy. So much this.
Their personality. More zealot monks, instruments of the most brutal tyranny ever and killing machines. Less "we are the good guys".
Black Templars hating psykers because the Edict of Nikaea again.
White Scars getting back their self-mutilation and skull-collecting rituals
The Sanguinor. Out with it. It is a cheap copy paste of a Living Saint. With nipples. Along with all the other nipple-armour the Blood Angels have.
Grey Knights being the army of all inquisitors. They should be the last resort for the Ordo Malleus.
Flesh Eaters having disappeared.
Super Mega Master Kaldor Draigo.

Chaos:
Getting Chaos Undivided back again. Minor Gods, independent daemons... the infinite ways of Chaos.
The Lost and the Damned should get more stuff. There are billions of them for every Chaos Space Marine. And some of them are really cool in the background.
No more Failabbadon. Most crusades didn´t involve Abbadon at all. Create some cool Chaos leaders (some of them human instead of Astartes would be even better) and let them fail for 10000 years.
Malice back to business.

Tyranids:
Getting Genestealer Cults and Zoats back again. Not a fan of Zoats, but cults would be nice. As it is, the name 'gene-stealer' doesn't actually mean anything, since they don't 'steal genes' any more.

Necrons:
Back to third edition or, even better, getting both newcrons and oldcrons as different factions.
Some C´tan survived and are still free. The Dragon on Mars, The Outsider... All of the new Necron fluff. Tomb Kings in Space. The Silent King leaving the galaxy and just so happening to leave in an exact collision course with the Tyranids, then running home to tell everyone. Trollzyn. Tea parties. The Celestial Orrery, and all that nonsense.
The Enslavers won (or ended) the War in Heaven again. Did this change?

The story:
Another vote for "Ollanius Pious was a man". Making him a perpetual absolutely breaks the character. What´s the point? He "sacrificed" himself for the Emperor? He is immortal, he was back to life in ten seconds. It cheapens the story to the point of making it utterly meaningless.
Perpetuals. Never existed. Yes. They are definitely among the stupidest bits of fluff out there. Especially that Ollanius was apparently an Argonaut...
Signus Prime being an astartes victory. It was not! The fight between Ka´Bhanda and Sanguinous was amazing as it was orignally written. They have broken it.
Alpharius and the Cabal. Getting Alpharius back to the Index Astartes.
Corax surviving the Drop-Site massacre thanks to the Alpha Legion. Aaargh...
Corax being fooled by the Alpha Legion regarding his experiments. Aaaaarghhh....
Alpharius turning traitor following orders from xenos then killing the xenos´ representative for no reason. Aaaaaaargh....
Alpha Legionaries killing each other as idiots while blindly following orders of someone they do not even know who he is any longer. Aaaaaaaaaargh... As an Alpha Legion fan and player, I wholeheartedly agree.
Anything ever written about the survivals of the loyal Legions of the Drop-Site massacre. It reeks of mary-sueism.
Everything we know about the Lion´s motivations.

Iron_Captain wrote:The Codex Astartes. Especially the way in which chapters are organised. The organisation in the Codex is probably the least effective way to organise an army ever.

Here's my list of stuff:

The method by which the Codex Astartes dictates a Battle-Brother is trained. It's completely idiotic. When you learn how to use a Heavy Bolter, you will then learn how to use a jump pack and chainsword. Only then may you become a Tactical Marine and get a bolter and knife, because it makes you 'flexible'.

Marneus Calgar's blatant favoritism in the fluff. Generally, retcon the Ultramarines to be as they were before all the fanboying, when they were actually pretty cool. Also, retcon "All Space Marines want to be Ultramarines" and "Robot Girlyman's wound is healing!!!", as well as the Battle for Macragge being not all that difficult. Oh, and The Swarmlord managing to completely fail to kill Calgar by cleaving him in half or anything, instead managing to expertly miss him just enough to slice off all of his limbs and put out one of his eyes, even though this would actually be more of a challenge for it than killing him (it's very big, and it's extraordinarily skilled). Amusingly, his "Gauntlets of Ultramar" were looted from a Champion of Chaos.

The Daemonculaba.

The Space Wolves being Wolf Lords on Thunderwolves in Asgard Armour with Norsemissiles. Also Fenrisian Wolves of Fenris. Wolf wolf wolves of wolf. Also the implied werewolves.

Retcon all instances of The Avatar of Khaine appearing in stories to make it actually have a significant impact instead of just being immediately roflstomped by the nearest Space Marine.

Make Fulgrim as he was before - possessed by a daemon. I believe it was the Horus Heresy novels that changed this completely and just made him evil.

Make the Sisters of Battle badass again. Oh, and give them an actual Codex for once. On that note, put in some actual decent female characters for once. Inquisitor Adrastia is a good start.

Represent Slaanesh in a more fitting manner and not neglect all of its other aspects, because it's bad enough that every perverted hormonal neckbeard loves to talk about it being the Chaos God of Sex and ignores everything about beauty and the pursuit of perfection (and how its Cult Marines are known for their dubstep more than anything else). Furthermore, give more attention to the more subjectively positive aspects of the Chaos Gods, like honour (Khorne) and hope (Tzeentch), and make them sound more like abstract entities and less like four giant one-dimensional villains sitting around the table in the Lair of Evil, twisting their moustaches and saying "Myeh! What dastardly deeds shall we inflict upon the Imperium next? Myeh!". Also, add more variation to Daemons. This is Chaos, after all. Obviously infinite variety is impossible when models have to be made, but it's disappointing that every Bloodletter looks the same. There should be more varieties of Daemon and more variation within them. As for the Chaos Gods, less treatment of Daemons like they're people. I'd make them more abstract, "an impossible abstraction made real only by metaphor and roiling emotions of mortal minds", the Daemon codex calls the Warp. Seeing them on mounts and in vehicles just makes them feel more like a race of aliens rather than creatures from the infinite impossibilities of the Warp.

I'm sure are more things.

EDIT: Make Castellen Crowe the Supreme Grand Master.

EDIT2: Oh, and the "Hunters from Hyperspace" special rule. It sounds ludicrous. Also, Necron tiaras.

EDIT3: Anyone who's seen me around dakka will probably know that I have a tendency to edit my posts too much. I'll stop now, but I'd really like to see the Red Angel do something. I love it, simply because it was like "I am the Red Angel" and Horus' advisor was like "That's Angron's name, he'll be offended" and it was just cool and basically said "I don't care, he can fight me for it, he's a noob".

The entire Horus Heresy series.

Anyway, besides that I'd up the Space Marine's numbers, say a million men per chapter. The "million guys in the whole galaxy" thing is something I've never really been able to accept, try as I might. A billion Marines or so is still small - so they can keep their rare elite status - but I feel that it gives them a little bit more padding in terms of how many could reasonably die and what a Chapter could really do.

Oh, and let's not forget the Blood Angels losing pretty much their entire Chapter on a Space Hulk.

EDIT: I'd love to get rid of the idiotic use of binary when referring to the Necrons.

@Frozen Ocean:

I'd actually want to keep the Daemonculaba - it's one damn grimdark way of making new CSM.

Daemonculaba are pretty fun.
Whenever I can get the name right anyway.

The bit about Ultramarines being the best of the best. Don't hate them, I just don't like ranking armies like that.

Khornate Grey Knights.

The Allies table - I want that shiz re-written.

What DA001, and Frozen Ocean said pretty much.

Also, the Pandorax novel where Azrael gets represented as being a total asshat, and always trying to hinder the always ever ultra cool/right in everything he does Kaldor Draigo.

 Swastakowey wrote:
Pretty much the whole thing Im not really a fan of the 40k or warhammer fluff. But i like some of the ideas and settings and the freedom you have with the imperial guard. Other that i pretty much would retcon all the back-story, 40K has gone way too over the top and verges on stupidity.

So for a more precise answer i'd retcon it back to a more serious adulty theme and story.

Comes to the 40k background forum to tell everyone he doesn't like 40k background.

I would Retcon Necrons and BA working together. It just plain doesn't make sense.

I'd get rid of every story about Imperial Guard commanders being incompetent fools born to do nothing but throw away the lives of their men. As it stands now, and from what I've read on the subject, officers go through schools to learn about command and warfare for a longer amount of time than modern day officers do. We don't throw away lives, so where is the disconnect here exactly?

Commander Chenkov. Him a thousand times over. If he was really in charge of anything and acted the way he does he'd be fired in an hour. Lunacy.

 Ignatius wrote:
I'd get rid of every story about Imperial Guard commanders being incompetent fools born to do nothing but throw away the lives of their men. As it stands now, and from what I've read on the subject, officers go through schools to learn about command and warfare for a longer amount of time than modern day officers do. We don't throw away lives, so where is the disconnect here exactly?

Commander Chenkov. Him a thousand times over. If he was really in charge of anything and acted the way he does he'd be fired in an hour. Lunacy.

40k fluff for guardsman actually has a decent explanation for that. Not all commanders deserve their position. Guardsman represent many things at once and many. different cultures. In certain places leadership is passed down nobility, others wealth, some trained some not, some that regard human life expendable (particularly if slavish death worlders), and many other less... wise ways to get leadership. At the same time, many likely have commanders that truly deserve command. In the end though, it all comes down to whether the ends bring enough of a profit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Rippy wrote:

 Swastakowey wrote:
Pretty much the whole thing Im not really a fan of the 40k or warhammer fluff. But i like some of the ideas and settings and the freedom you have with the imperial guard. Other that i pretty much would retcon all the back-story, 40K has gone way too over the top and verges on stupidity.

So for a more precise answer i'd retcon it back to a more serious adulty theme and story.

Comes to the 40k background forum to tell everyone he doesn't like 40k background.

I would Retcon Necrons and BA working together. It just plain doesn't make sense.

Ummmm.... 40k was never that serious to begin with . Started as a parody and became OTT grim dark whilst having daemons and psykers running around screaming (also adulty is an odd term. Good or bad?)

I would drop the entire ward GK codex fluff. It all just reads like bad fan fiction. Oh boy the Grey Knights save the day again with ease, what a surprise. I liked it better when they were fighting an impossible battle against chaos. Even in the novels the Grey Knights get their butts kicked hard.

That said, make Chaos an actual threat again rather than being the team rocket of sphesss.

also retcon the new C'tan fluff. I actually like the idea of lords having personality glitches.

I think the ''GK are the best and kick daemon ass left and right without breaking a sweat'' was made for marketing purposes, or at least to leave the customer satisfied that he chose this army to play. ''If he's happy about his army kicking butt he sure will buy more of our products, right?!''

or maybe Matt Ward is just a terrible writer.

Not trying to start a Ward hate argument here, don't worry. :-p

Or maybe they told him what to write, and he wrote it.

I miss when GK's were darker though, they cared nothing about lives, they cared nothing about people. The fact people got upset they killed a few sisters is weird when they used to purge entire populations just for knowing about daemons, and it took them restraint just avoid killing those they felt was 'warp touched' Whether human, or Space Marine.

They were never good, they were all about killing those Warp Infested beings and those that would summon them.

Give harlequins a codex (or supplement) again.

Selym wrote:@Frozen Ocean:

I'd actually want to keep the Daemonculaba - it's one damn grimdark way of making new CSM.

It's completely over the top and reads like a rape/pregnancy fetish fanfic.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:Or maybe they told him what to write, and he wrote it.

I miss when GK's were darker though, they cared nothing about lives, they cared nothing about people. The fact people got upset they killed a few sisters is weird when they used to purge entire populations just for knowing about daemons, and it took them restraint just avoid killing those they felt was 'warp touched' Whether human, or Space Marine.

They were never good, they were all about killing those Warp Infested beings and those that would summon them.

No faction in 40k is 'good'. People get upset because Sisters are horribly under-represented and when they are, all too often they're just there to be the subject of a mass slaughter, not because the Sisters are the good guys and the good guys should never die.

The allies chart.

I'm fine with everything else.

If I could retcon....I know earlier a lot of people stated they wanted the 'Nids gone, but I love them to death (first army).

I would like their old fluff back; I was not keen on the idea that the Tyranids had all of their units from the beginning. I loved the idea that they stole DNA and adapted new creatures. Ie, Ork genes created biovours, eldar genes created Zoanthropes etc. I am sad that they took that away; kind'a ruined the whole gimmick of what genestealers actually do...Which I want cults back

Also, If you could call it a retcon; I would love it if the story of 40k moved past the 13th black crusade, and the world wide campaign mattered at least fluff wise.

Lastly, I would like more time travel shenanigan. Some 30k marines coming in, maybe a primach story of him coming for a visit and then going back; maybe some dark age of technology humans coming for a visit. Etc.

I never liked the idea of Tyranids picking up DNA from things. It doesn't make a lot of sense. DNA doesn't work like "here is the strong gene" and "here is the smart gene". Besides, as masters of genetic manipulation, if they wanted to create such things, why didn't they do it before? I know the Biovore logic is supposedly spores, but it really isn't at all similar to an Ork. Eating Space Marines to give them greater toughness/strength just means that the Tyranids don't know how to add greater muscle density.

Zoanthropes would possibly make more sense if they accessed the Warp, because they could have learned by studying Eldar DNA how they manage psychic potential. But because Tyranid psychic power doesn't work that way, it doesn't make sense either.

It would kind of be like The Imperium finding Eldar shuriken weapons and adapting them to create large flying discs that they mount turrets on, because they're both shuriken-y. Or copying Tau Pulse technology and making plasma swords that also reduce the wielder's BS to 2 for no reason.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I miss when GK's were darker though, they cared nothing about lives, they cared nothing about people. The fact people got upset they killed a few sisters is weird when they used to purge entire populations just for knowing about daemons, and it took them restraint just avoid killing those they felt was 'warp touched' Whether human, or Space Marine.

People got upset about the SoB massacre because it was so stupid. The SoB are making a last stand against the demonic assault (and remaining pure in the process), so as soon as the GK arrive they go slaughter the SoB, paint themselves with their blood, and then slaughter everything else on the planet. It takes the whole "do whatever it takes" thing to the point of absurdity and makes the GK into Khorne cultists.

 Peregrine wrote:

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
I miss when GK's were darker though, they cared nothing about lives, they cared nothing about people. The fact people got upset they killed a few sisters is weird when they used to purge entire populations just for knowing about daemons, and it took them restraint just avoid killing those they felt was 'warp touched' Whether human, or Space Marine.

People got upset about the SoB massacre because it was so stupid. The SoB are making a last stand against the demonic assault (and remaining pure in the process), so as soon as the GK arrive they go slaughter the SoB, paint themselves with their blood, and then slaughter everything else on the planet. It takes the whole "do whatever it takes" thing to the point of absurdity and makes the GK into Khorne cultists.

Let's not forget that there is no basis for them to think that this ritual will work as opposed to their warded armour and their own auras of purity. Furthermore, the story says that a number of Sisters survived to fight through the Bloodtide, only to be killed by Bloodletters (failing to have any actual positive impact on the story except to increase the Bloodtide's power through their deaths). Surely, if there are Sisters who endure it (really, all of them should be able to, but I digress), the Super-Deluxe-Mega-Supreme-Pure-Divine Grey Knights (in their Aegis Armour no less) would be able to, as well (not to mention being psykers, and therefore able to cast wards on themselves)? Does this mean that GK are powerless to stop a Bloodtide unless there are Sisters nearby to slay in the name of the Blood God to make into a smoothie to ward themselves with?

EDIT: The Grey Knights Codex neglects to mention that the Bloodtide is not of Chaos, but of ancient technology. Which, although kind of stupid, makes the story make even less sense (the story is also called The Bloodtide Returns, implying a, you know, return).

I agree that bringing the slann back is a cool idea. Especially if they have spent the last 400 million years perfecting anti neckbeardcron weapons and tactics. Give at least some sort of credible threat to the marysuecrons. Maybe the eldar find them in a protective spiritual dimension within the warp. Then it becomes a big effort to awaken them and bring then back into reality. That would also give the space elves something to do other than star in space marine snuff films

CSM and Chaos need some lovin.

For a force that's suppose to be terrifying, powerful, and stuff, they get beaten a lot. How can they be terrifying if they lose so often!

Course there are exceptions. Storm of Iron and Blood Reaver to name a few.

Also the lack of independant or undivided chaos fluff, for something that's suppose to be about choice and doing whatever I want, it's kinda limiting

The whole "Royal" system of Necrons.

Bring by Pariahs, down with Lychguard and Praetorians.

Better confirmation or more frequent examples of the Emperor as a Chaos God (Saints = Daemon Princes, etc.)

In order

Throne is NOT failing/Emperor is not dying.

Imperial Guard is actually a highly competent force with excellent soldiers, good equipment, intelligent commanders

"Legion" never happened.

Grey Knights do not massacre loyal soldiers no matter the condition

Ultramarines are highly respected but nothing more. They are not the best, not every chapter desires to be like them, their leaders are not the greatest and make mistakes.

Ollanius Pius was a soldier in the Imperial Army who was just an ordinary man in the wrong place at the wrong time

thats also all my personal fluff


Oh and 1 major change that if I had a chance to redesign 40k I would have done... add a 0 to every number ever mentioned about Space Marines (except squads and Company size. Add a new designation for 1,000 man units, Chapters are 10,000 men, etc... )

So.... GK aren't doing their jobs, then?

 Galdos wrote:

Imperial Guard is actually a highly competent force with excellent soldiers, good equipment, intelligent commanders

A lot of the time, they are. The problem is that they are so hopelessly outclassed by other factions that it comes out as not really making much of a difference. Commissars don't exist because they can't be bothered to train their troops, they exist because these troops are expected to face down all manner of eldritch nightmares with only their faith in the Emperor for reassurance.

As everyone else has said increase the number of a SM chapter to 10,000.
What I would like to see reworked is battles with the tau and by this I mean what kind of damage do the ork warbands and tyranid splinter fleets do to the tau empire and how does it effect the third expansion as well as battles with the IOM give these battles depth not just the tau won or who ever won. The main thing to me would be that all the fluff needs to be toned down. GW tends to keep adding to each update some more than others. I just would like depth to these battles and races showing the good and bad sides of the race not one sided fights and over the top fluff made to sell armies.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Imposter101 wrote:
I dread to see what he thinks of Chaos...

Actually I like Chaos, as long as you get rid of most of the demon units and put them back in CSM instead of the stupid "use your WHFB army in 40k" system we have now. Chaos has an important role in the story, has lots of interesting artistic potential, and fights like a proper army on the tabletop. They might not be strictly realistic, but they mostly make sense as long as you accept the magic/corruption aspect. And since it's explicitly magic it doesn't have to obey the normal laws of reality.

My problem with Tyranids is that they have none of the redeeming qualities of Chaos. Their fluff is fundamentally stupid (no, an alien swarm from outside the galaxy is not going to eat our DNA and use it, nor will anything with any interest in eating us be able to grow armor that can deal with tank shots, and it certainly won't be able to ignore conservation of mass/energy to literally eat all the biological matter on a planet and turn it into more Tyranids). Their purpose in the story is minimal at best, since they're nothing more than a faceless devouring swarm with no characters, no heroes to identify with, no villains to hate, no goals to support or oppose, just mindless consumption*. From a story perspective they're about as interesting as writing a story about the weeds in your yard. And finally their models are just plain awful and don't fit the aesthetic of a 40k battle at all.


*This, by the way, is why the new Necron fluff is so much better than the old stuff. Yes, it has its stupid bits, but at least it's better than the old "metal Tyranids" version where they're just another mindless devouring swarm.

It sounds like you just want various shades of humans fighting each other.

Tyranids are one of the few semi-original, semi-alien concepts in 40K. Pretty much all the other xenos races are fundamentally human at the end of the day, no matter how many "eldritches" and "inscrutables" their codex throws out in the background sections. Eldar were lush humans, now they're monastic humans. DE are sociopaths and serial killers. Tau are socialist technocrats. Necrons are a weird mixed bag now, but there's nothing truly alien about them.

It frustrates me when people claim that identifying with heroes or raging against villains are the most important components to good background. Yeah, maybe if you're eight years old, and the extent of the complexity you can process is Honourable Knight, Evil Dragon, Pretty Princess. The thing that makes Tyranids unique in 40K is the faceless, mindless quality you hate so much. They're not just six-armed humans (to go along with the pointy eared humans, the evil pointy eared humans, the fish-faced humans, etc.)

What exactly is wrong with writing a story about the weeds in your backyard? When I watch an episode of Planet Earth it blows my mind, and it has nothing to do with me "identifying" with Termites.

I don't know about you, Altruizine, but I really relate to the Tyranids. People tend to go insane around me, and I have this constant urge to eat people and then go dissolve myself in the bath. I've also been known to steal jeans.

Seriously, though, I agree with what you're saying. It's the same with how people talk about characters of all sorts, though; that, in order to be a fan of Wonder Woman, you need to be a girl and need to "identify" with her, and by that same token, girls can't "identify" with Superman or Batman or anyone else who isn't exactly the same gender and race as they are.

Peregrine feels to me like one of those people who is obsessed with the power of humans and human technology. I've had quite a few of those (well, three) on my forum. Guns and infantry (human) rule all, any form of magic or sci-fi tech is bad and unoriginal. The same sort of people who refuse to believe that lasguns are better than M16s, or even that 40k's various 'slug-throwers' are in any way superior to modern firearms "because they can't be improved any more". I'm not saying that Peregrine necessarily feels this way, but that he feels very much like this flavour of person which you may or may not know well.

Arent we slipping to personal prejudice instead of talking about fluff or simply story functionality?

 Frozen Ocean wrote:

 Galdos wrote:

Imperial Guard is actually a highly competent force with excellent soldiers, good equipment, intelligent commanders

A lot of the time, they are. The problem is that they are so hopelessly outclassed by other factions that it comes out as not really making much of a difference. Commissars don't exist because they can't be bothered to train their troops, they exist because these troops are expected to face down all manner of eldritch nightmares with only their faith in the Emperor for reassurance.

The guard suffer from the law of inverse ninjitsu.

1 Guardsman can kill multiple csms (Hawk - from storm of iron) I think Cain's killed csm's too. There's mre if I could be bothered to look.
As soon as enough guardsmen gather, they charge into another book at company strength level and get smashed by whatever feels like turning up to fight.

And what would I retcon?

The Sanguinor. He can fly back up Matt Ward's a***, dropping off eternal warrior at Dante's house as he leaves. I still hate the idea that the Blood Angels, one of the first founding chapters get into fights they can only win with the help of a spooky angel who lives in the warp. Its worse than wolves riding wolves and space marines inside space marines. I don't mind the nipple armour, or even the BA/Necron alliance, but seriously, Feth the Sanguinor. He's the SM equivalent of the Littlest Fething Hobo. He flies down, saves Mephiston and Dante (as if they should ever need saving! ) and then feths off back into the warp, saying
'sorry guys, I'd love to stay and help but I've got stuff to do, try not to get into anymore gak you can't handle please'
'what stuff?'
'You know, warp type stuff''
'What is there to do in the warp? why don't you just stay here and help us - maybe become a company captain or something?'
'Dude, you know what warp stuff is like'
'Actually, no I don't - whats it like?'
'If you don't already know, then I can't tell you...but it's big warp stuff I've got going on'
'eh?'
'Big warp stuff''
'like wh-'
'BIIIG warpy stuff' - Bye'

I mean, Draigo is apparently trapped in the warp and can only return when a demonic incursion is under way - whats the Sanguinors excuse?
At the moment in the 5th Ed BA codex, they've got Necrons on one side, Chaos on another and Nids (IIRC anyway) all poised to attack. But it's ok, if they get into serious gak, the sanguinor will fly down and remove all dramatic tension by saving the day....

Feth The Sanguinor.

I don't think the Sanguinor needs an excuse, he might not even be a guy and thus incapable of making one.
Also I think Mephiston has been saved more by Eldrad's intervention than the Sanguinor's, that's to say he got saved by Eldrad once. I don't think Dante has ever needed him around either.
I wouldn't exactly be torn up if he was removed or anything, but he just seems like a BA specific Legion of the Damned to me.

He's just a pointless waste of of rules/fluff.

They should give his rules to Dante. And then let Dante have a non-unwieldy axe.
Get rid of the death mask rules and let Dante buff a sergeant instead and I'd be happy. It'd get rid of the stupid debuff which is just annoying and doesn't work in the fluff (How can the Swarmlord be scared so much by Dante it loses a wound?) and give people the two wound sergeant which does work (and is quite a nice touch, especially if you've got a nice sarge in your army)

When did Eldrad save Mephiston? I've missed that one and I play eldar and a mate plays BA and we've a game tomorrow

I'd probably retcon away the Sons of Malice.

That, or I'd retcon Cain's Last Stand so that it didn't utterly piss all over the Sisters lore.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Orks as reproducing via bonk. I never minded the idea of Orks as reproducing through spores, it was when GW went stupid and made them infinitely reproducing though combat to give them +10 Grimdark that the Ork fluff was ruined. Orks were supposed to be the universe's comic relief, not one of its biggest threats.

Why so mutually exclusive?

Orks are BOTH comic relief AND one of the universe's greatest threats. Orks make more sense, and are just generally better and more coherent in the lore, for being more grimdark-- and yet they're still being comedic in their own ways. Not because "oh orks you so silly and stupid and weak", but because "damn, Orks are WEIRD..."

 Melissia wrote:
I'd probably retcon away the Sons of Malice.

That, or I'd retcon Cain's Last Stand so that it didn't utterly piss all over the Sisters lore.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Orks as reproducing via bonk. I never minded the idea of Orks as reproducing through spores, it was when GW went stupid and made them infinitely reproducing though combat to give them +10 Grimdark that the Ork fluff was ruined. Orks were supposed to be the universe's comic relief, not one of its biggest threats.

Why so mutually exclusive?

Orks are BOTH comic relief AND one of the universe's greatest threats. Orks make more sense, and are just generally better and more coherent in the lore, for being more grimdark-- and yet they're still being comedic in their own ways. Not because "oh orks you so silly and stupid and weak", but because "damn, Orks are WEIRD..."

And then you get things like:

Orks Codex wrote:
"More often than not,, the replacement is something from the 'cuttin' edge'of the local Mek's craft. This can be distressing for the owner of, for instance, a Rutgot Mk2 Exploding Leg, especially if it was his arm that needed the attention."

And then we laugh at their combined genius and stupidity

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Arent we slipping to personal prejudice instead of talking about fluff or simply story functionality?

It's nothing personal, it's just how I feel he came off.

I'm not familiar with Cain's Last Stand. What happened?

EDIT: Although I wish GW would stop with the silly overuse of Orky contractions (fighta-bommer). I presume Orks don't have any literacy, so spelling everything based on their accents gets really tired when it's just everything.

EDIT 2: Especially when it's The Imperium doing it. Xenos vehicle classification: Trukky Boomy Trukky Trukk Innit.

I believe it has something to do with a powerful psyker mind controlling a large unit of SoB as his personal guard (forgive me Melissa if I didn't nail all of it). On note of SoB, besides the obvious mentioning of the GK incident... I don't remember the name but.... the book about Space Wolves where Sisters are so vastly inferior and lose faith in the god emprah but a feral brutal group of jerks make them become reinspired and even with tactical preperation the SoB and guard fail in comparison to the great wolves.

It was also the fact that he felt the need to introduce a hard-drinking, casual-sex-having, moderately religious retired Celestian (all of which contradict the lore behind Celestians...).

 Selym wrote:
And then we laugh at their combined genius and stupidity

Yeah, that's the best part about Orks. They combine humor and grimdarkness with exquisite skill.

To Melissia
What i think the author of the Cain series was trying to do was give some more "human" qualities to the SOB. Now it does go against the fluff which i will admit when it comes to SOB i don't know that much about them, but to me i like the idea that they could fall or their faith being used by someone to use for their own purpose. To me the SM are the ones who sacrificed their humanity to save humanity. The SOB should IMO show more human qualities even if they are raised in faith from birth. like with a sister repenting it should be IMO because of them having committed a sin not because they don't believe enough (correct me if im wrong last time i read up on them that is what i got out of it). To me in the grim darkness of the far future no one is above falling to corruption.

 Melissia wrote:
It was also the fact that he felt the need to introduce a hard-drinking, casual-sex-having, moderately religious retired Celestian (all of which contradict the lore behind Celestians...).

Ah yes, I've heard that one before. Didn't know it was from the same thing.

EDIT:

 Gunhead1 wrote:
To Melissia
What i think the author of the Cain series was trying to do was give some more "human" qualities to the SOB. Now it does go against the fluff which i will admit when it comes to SOB i don't know that much about them, but to me i like the idea that they could fall or their faith being used by someone to use for their own purpose. To me the SM are the ones who sacrificed their humanity to save humanity. The SOB should IMO show more human qualities even if they are raised in faith from birth. like with a sister repenting it should be IMO because of them having committed a sin not because they don't believe enough (correct me if im wrong last time i read up on them that is what i got out of it). To me in the grim darkness of the far future no one is above falling to corruption.

Except the Sisters of Battle. That's the point.

Well there was that one sister of battle.... then again she ended up whooping the slaanesh warband that captured her and made them her own arm of chaos.

Well that is one hell of a program if its better than what the SM's got.

 Melissia wrote:
That, or I'd retcon Cain's Last Stand so that it didn't utterly piss all over the Sisters lore.

This too. A lot of people gotten weird impressions of the Sisters from that book. Mostly because their codexes describe such an extremely sheltered, regimented lifestyle, whilst one of his SoB characters pretty much goes completely against that.

Edit: rethought that last paragraph. If Sandy Mitchell did decide to write them with their fluff in mind and did a little research, then I'd probably be much more okay with his SoB.

 Gunhead1 wrote:
To Melissia
What i think the author of the Cain series was trying to do was give some more "human" qualities to the SOB.

I don't disagree.

I just disagree with the underlying assertion in this statement that he did so with anything resembling good taste; or that he showed much respect for the Sisters lore, or respect for the characters he was writing who weren't Cain or Jurgen.

To him, "making them more human" basically means turning them to be more like a stereotypical male soldier, which is wrong on at least seven levels.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
When did Eldrad save Mephiston? I've missed that one and I play eldar and a mate plays BA and we've a game tomorrow

The Battle of Hollonan, page 17 of the current BA codex.

 Ignatius wrote:


Commander Chenkov. Him a thousand times over. If he was really in charge of anything and acted the way he does he'd be fired in an hour. Lunacy.

A MILLION TIMES THIS. And he earns medals for his actions?! I've always hated Chenkov. I get it that they're trying to make it a grim dark setting, but that's just…NO. How is it we have brilliant IG commanders like Gaunt and Al'Rahem, Creed and Kell…yet they dare lump this worthless a__hat among them?

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


Commander Chenkov. Him a thousand times over. If he was really in charge of anything and acted the way he does he'd be fired in an hour. Lunacy.

A MILLION TIMES THIS. And he earns medals for his actions?! I've always hated Chenkov. I get it that they're trying to make it a grim dark setting, but that's just…NO. How is it we have brilliant IG commanders like Gaunt and Al'Rahem, Creed and Kell…yet they dare lump this worthless a__hat among them?

They come from different worlds and upbringings.

Some are nobles who were gifted/inherited the title, others were educated for it, some just got it by accident.

Every so often, you'll end up with an asshat controlling millions of guardsmen, whose only tactic is to throw more bodies at the problem until it goes away.

EDIT: And he probably just got medals for winning wars...

 Gunhead1 wrote:
To Melissia
What i think the author of the Cain series was trying to do was give some more "human" qualities to the SOB. Now it does go against the fluff which i will admit when it comes to SOB i don't know that much about them, but to me i like the idea that they could fall or their faith being used by someone to use for their own purpose. To me the SM are the ones who sacrificed their humanity to save humanity. The SOB should IMO show more human qualities even if they are raised in faith from birth. like with a sister repenting it should be IMO because of them having committed a sin not because they don't believe enough (correct me if im wrong last time i read up on them that is what i got out of it). To me in the grim darkness of the far future no one is above falling to corruption.

Well, the Sororitas is a penitent order. They believe that they are "working off" their own sins, as well as the sins of humanity (Oblationist creed). The Repentia are those who have violated some rule or stricture within their order, or believe that they have. To them, the purpose of life is to suffer, as He on Terra suffers. Where the Grey Knights gain their purity and incorruptible nature through their arcane sorceries, psychic defenses and supernatural willpower, the Sisterhood gains it through a clarity of purpose and single-minded devotion to the Golden Throne.

A Sister who has lost her faith, or who feels her faith weakening, would be the first person to turn herself into her Sister Superior or Canoness for what amounts to a personal Penitent Crusade... though she might not actually be going anywhere. As the saying goes, "Pain is faith entering the body, pleasure is corruption entering the soul." She would not be out, carousing with Commissars and soldiers, sleeping around in the barracks and knocking back shots. A loss of faith, or resolve, or even breaking what are probably very minor rules is punished severely within the Sisterhood.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


Commander Chenkov. Him a thousand times over. If he was really in charge of anything and acted the way he does he'd be fired in an hour. Lunacy.

A MILLION TIMES THIS. And he earns medals for his actions?! I've always hated Chenkov. I get it that they're trying to make it a grim dark setting, but that's just…NO. How is it we have brilliant IG commanders like Gaunt and Al'Rahem, Creed and Kell…yet they dare lump this worthless a__hat among them?

I guess they were trying to go for the Soviet era commissars of the Red Army by making him through lives away. And that happened in real life, maybe not as big of a scale, but to a certain degree.

 BattleCapIronblood wrote:

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


Commander Chenkov. Him a thousand times over. If he was really in charge of anything and acted the way he does he'd be fired in an hour. Lunacy.

A MILLION TIMES THIS. And he earns medals for his actions?! I've always hated Chenkov. I get it that they're trying to make it a grim dark setting, but that's just…NO. How is it we have brilliant IG commanders like Gaunt and Al'Rahem, Creed and Kell…yet they dare lump this worthless a__hat among them?

I guess they were trying to go for the Soviet era commissars of the Red Army by making him through lives away. And that happened in real life, maybe not as big of a scale, but to a certain degree.

And in some IG armies, you'll have far more bodies then equipment due to the fact that some bureaucrat sent your supplies to another sector..

You've gotta remember that the powers above still has to deal with bureaucrats who are sending MILLIONS of supplies all over the galaxy in ships, sometimes to the wrong place, sometimes to the wrong people. Sometimes you've just got manpower.

All the current Necron fluff.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:

 Ignatius wrote:


Commander Chenkov. Him a thousand times over. If he was really in charge of anything and acted the way he does he'd be fired in an hour. Lunacy.

A MILLION TIMES THIS. And he earns medals for his actions?! I've always hated Chenkov. I get it that they're trying to make it a grim dark setting, but that's just…NO. How is it we have brilliant IG commanders like Gaunt and Al'Rahem, Creed and Kell…yet they dare lump this worthless a__hat among them?

Chenkov is great. He shows different face of IG. Some commanders are delicate tacticians, others use mass infantry waves because there is plenty of bodies. He fits perfectly into vast universe where are different strategies, politics and so on. As I dislike "IG is useless, lets send our heroic spes mehreens who are the only savious of humankind" Im not fan of "IG is sophisticated modern army with combined arms doctrine"...for that is IG too big and in it lies most of the fun with it. DKoK are great example of those different faces

I'd do away with the Necrons and the Grey Knights. Both are to hard to beat in game and both have horrible fluff. The Crons as a stalking, silent, quick strike and gone raider force, that while able to repair damage couldn't afford to lose troops and thus would 'phase out' to preserve the remnants if things went bad was cool.

Grey Knights on the other hand shouldn't even BE their own army. They are a part of the Inquisition and thus a small part. You should at most see a squad in a 2000-2500 point game, let alone their army. They don't have the numbers, or drive to engage most armies expect Chaos, and Daemons. Nids? Don't care, Eldar? Eh...only if they have an avatar. Tau? We have guard for this. etc. etc. The whole actions after the 1st war for Armageddon put the nail in the coffin for me. They are just as evil and bad as Chaos.

Also remerge Chaos Space Marines and Daemons. They should have NEVER been separated. Daemons NEED CSM's and their cultists to even get IN to real space.

Not necessarily, strong warpstorms can do it as well (very rarely). That being said, I do admit I never bring daemons in low point games unless it is in support of my CSM, IG, or I have a support of CSM.

I must say, I'd also like to retcon the Thousand Son siege of Space Wolves planet (mainly because magnus seems to forget he's a fething primarch and a daemon prince). I get the notion, but when you have 700 or so thousand sons, powerful sorcerers, a primarch daemon prince, and then hordes of trained sorcerer troops blasting at your foretress, really? I'd trade that out for an explanation of like how the Thousand Sons function. 1000 guys that lose some? How do you bring suits back? Can the sorcerers produce geneseed (rubric of ahriman and all how it makes them impossible to corrupt)? If used on a sorcerer does it ignore the rubric and automatically make them a super buffed psyker because of the rubric or maybe they become another one?

Oh, and pretty much all of the Horus Heresy (don't get me wrong, a few are good/decent and quite a few bring up interesting ideas but at the same time they ruin the ambiguous nature of the mythos)

I'd add an adeptus mechanicus army. Just the thought of skitarii, all kinds of servitors and huge loads of tanks brings a smile to my face.

Honestly im still a little butt-hurt over the Necron fluff, so I'd retcon large parts back to what it was in 3rd ed. I personally liked it better when Necrons were merciless death bots (and the hopelessness that came with fighting them, like you were fighting against your own mortality) and how their technology inspired awe by how advanced it was (Like how Gauss weapons were seen as an impossibility by the person analyzing it, and how Necrons used inertia-less drived for FTL travel, but now they have to leech off of the Eldar/Old One technology and force their way into the webway). Or how the Necron robot slaves just decided to turn against the C'tan on a whim, were the star vampires so stupid to not program obedience into their robots?

Note: Not all the fluff is bad, there are silver linings that improved (like dynasties giving a reason for different colour schemes and infighting)

The C'Tan didn't come up with the idea of bio-transference. It's a wholly Necrontyr invention. That is, perhaps, the greatest horror of the War in Heaven.

DkLnBr wrote:
Honestly im still a little butt-hurt over the Necron fluff, so I'd retcon large parts back to what it was in 3rd ed. I personally liked it better when Necrons were merciless death bots (and the hopelessness that came with fighting them, like you were fighting against your own mortality) and how their technology inspired awe by how advanced it was (Like how Gauss weapons were seen as an impossibility by the person analyzing it, and how Necrons used inertia-less drived for FTL travel, but now they have to leech off of the Eldar/Old One technology and force their way into the webway). Or how the Necron robot slaves just decided to turn against the C'tan on a whim, were the star vampires so stupid to not program obedience into their robots?

Note: Not all the fluff is bad, there are silver linings that improved (like dynasties giving a reason for different colour schemes and infighting)

You can still have that 3rd ed feel even now:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/509156.page#5310885

Legion of the Damned, the Sanguinor, and any other super special power armor wearing entities that inexplicably drop in to save power armored Space marines.

Space Wolves riding wolves.

BS 3 WS 3 Blood Claws. (And no I don't care for their reasoning. A drop in leadership would have sufficed)

I'd lose the machine spirit concept. You mean to tell me there's an entity you have to appease in my lawnmower? It's just a dumb concept.

I would keep the Tech priest rites the same, but base it more on superstition, rather than actual reality. Like a Manticore getting pissed because you didn't put a little more elbow grease in cleaning it, so it fires all it's missile's at once.

It is all superstition though...

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It is all superstition though...

It's not though, the machine spirit really does exist. it's not just unfounded superstition fluffwise.

If by machine spirit you mean a combination of AI programs they don't really understand and the fact that "clap your hands if you believe" actually works because lolWarp.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
It is all superstition though...

I'd Retcon anything written by any of the 40k fluff writers that wasn't sophisticated enough to encompass this statement. Treating the fluff on the whole as an amalgamation and interaction of different levels of perspective is a brilliant way to establish a rich, mutable background. Some of their writers pull this off pretty well, a lot of them don't.

What I would retcon?

5th ed Necrons.

DKoK gets the first place though. Most bland and uninteresting army I have ever seen.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
DKoK gets the first place though. Most bland and uninteresting army I have ever seen.

HERESY.

*blam*

 Peregrine wrote:

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
DKoK gets the first place though. Most bland and uninteresting army I have ever seen.

HERESY.

*blam*

HERESY! *blam* There are certain texts and opinions too terrifying for even Commisars... in that case an Inquisitor is needed to silence even them.

You served us well.

 Ignatius wrote:
Commander Chenkov. Him a thousand times over. If he was really in charge of anything and acted the way he does he'd be fired in an hour. Lunacy.

 Kaiserbudheim wrote:
A MILLION TIMES THIS. And he earns medals for his actions?! I've always hated Chenkov. I get it that they're trying to make it a grim dark setting, but that's just…NO. How is it we have brilliant IG commanders like Gaunt and Al'Rahem, Creed and Kell…yet they dare lump this worthless a__hat among them?

He gets the job done, that's what matters to his superiors. If he loses 20, 200, 2000 or more to take one enemy position, if he takes it and it's crucial to the overall progress of the battle/campaign/war then that's what matters - look at him as personifying the phrase 'Ends justifies the means'. Besides he just exemplifies how the Valhallan's fight - massed artillery barrages followed by wave after wave of infantry, packing them into the meatgrinder until the enemy are too low on ammunition and too worn down to resist yet another wave of attackers.

 UlrikDecado wrote:
Chenkov is great. He shows different face of IG. Some commanders are delicate tacticians, others use mass infantry waves because there is plenty of bodies. He fits perfectly into vast universe where are different strategies, politics and so on. As I dislike "IG is useless, lets send our heroic spes mehreens who are the only savious of humankind" Im not fan of "IG is sophisticated modern army with combined arms doctrine"...for that is IG too big and in it lies most of the fun with it. DKoK are great example of those different faces

I agree entirely. Chenkov adds variety and, as you say, shows one of the many sides to the Imperial Guard.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
DKoK gets the first place though. Most bland and uninteresting army I have ever seen.

I have to ask -how- would you 'retcon' them? Would you remove them? That would mean there wouldn't be a IG regiment based on the Great War - could inspiration from such an important modern conflict be ignored?

Hmm, If I really had to Retcon Something it'd be 3rd Edition Necrons, and return them back to their 'Chaos Androids" form.

Or their more tomb king like Chapter Approved type, rather then the Metallic Tyranids who serve the Mary Sue'tan.

 ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Hmm, If I really had to Retcon Something it'd be 3rd Edition Necrons, and return them back to their 'Chaos Androids" form.

Or their more tomb king like Chapter Approved type, rather then the Metallic Tyranids who serve the Mary Sue'tan.

Okay I'll admit I say all for a return of the Chaos Androids. To be honest, C'tan were just stupidly broken with no real big drawbacks and necrons were metallic nids. And then you have the more recent fluff of tom kings in space except we are better than everybody. Best tech in the galaxy, still creating new tech, we know how to combat every style even the illogical and irrational, we have the quickest space travel to these places but then slow for everything else, our naval ships are the best, we can blow up your tanks with our basics guns, this is only the weakest power level of our guys, we have astronomers whom are the best at predicting the future, can see enemy plans thousands of years into the future, can see the horus heresy and everything else centuries before humans even become a real thing, we have shards of gods that are super powerful and gae both a god of the warp and the emperah a problem, we can't really die, oh and we have more necrons than there are humans in the galaxy. The army just feels so bewilderingly powerful that either format of them is irritating. In one you have physical gods that are just as mighty as the warp gods within the warp but since everything happens in the real world that means that whilst warp gods can make massive changes, it is always limited whilst C'tan can just ruin everything or you get well... almost everything else about them that is stupidly powerful. Oh and I forgot to mention they have ways to shut down warp travel and anti psyker and daemon tech to counter the whole entire warp problem. Admittedl I have some problems with nids (the projection of needing to increase production of all things by IG to counter their numbers by x10000 numbers. Grimdark is gridmark if there is some slight, minor hope. Factions that play out how impossibly godly they are and we have the best guns in the galaxy and better than you in every single way is somewhat irritating in the end). So retconne Nids and C'tan, restructure nids to be a really big threat but make it so that they don't soundsl ike they will curb stomp everything except necrons (Shadows in the warp against daemons works how exactly I've never quite known) and necrons to make them I dunno xD

Dolmen gates. That is the part I hate the most in the 5th ed codex. Not the triarchs. Not the dysnasties. The fething Dolmen gates.

Change:
The Horus Heresy never happened.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Dolmen gates. That is the part I hate the most in the 5th ed codex. Not the triarchs. Not the dysnasties. The fething Dolmen gates.

Actually can we retcon the ork chearleader model? Like make it so it never existed?

 StarTrotter wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Dolmen gates. That is the part I hate the most in the 5th ed codex. Not the triarchs. Not the dysnasties. The fething Dolmen gates.

Actually can we retcon the ork chearleader model? Like make it so it never existed?

nope.This is 40k and the ORC cheerleader is from blood bowl.

I'd have Draigo just ascend to the Supreme Grandmaster position through some uneventful process, definitely get rid of that carving his name in Mortarion's heart horse crap. And keep him within one realm, not strolling through the Realm of Chaos acting like Chuck Norris.

* Merge the 3E and 5E Necron styles, making two distinct types of Necron dynasties: independent and enslaved, both fighting the other types as much as the other factions.

* Return the Grey Knights to a Daemonhunters troop type. Giving them their own army list is like giving Space Marine Scouts their own list.

* No "Seeing Grey Knights = summary execution" rules. Make them beacons of hope in a hopeless situation.

* Rewrite Fulgrim's apotheosis. Angel Exterminatus was garbage and full of plot holes.

* Remove The Outcast Dead. The action hinges on a plot hole that gets handwaved in the last minutes of Wolf Hunt.

* Remove the Cabal, or at least their hand in Alpharius's betrayal. Alpharius has a better motive for turning on his brothers than "Some xenos told me Horus had to win," the opportunity to prove to Guilliman that his style of warfare is just as effective.

Merge the 3E and 5E Necron styles, making two distinct types of Necron dynasties: independent and enslaved, both fighting the other types as much as the other factions.

They have something very similar to this in the fluff now. They are called the Severed. There is also plenty of leeway in the fluff to have your Necrons worship a C'tan Shard.

 StarTrotter wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Dolmen gates. That is the part I hate the most in the 5th ed codex. Not the triarchs. Not the dysnasties. The fething Dolmen gates.

Actually can we retcon the ork chearleader model? Like make it so it never existed?

But then how would I ever torment the denizens of Dakka Dakka?

I'm not sure why people call the new Necron fluff "Tomb Kings in space". You can't say that they already were Tomb Kings in space at least aesthetically. If you wanted "Tomb Kings in space" gone, you'd have to redo the entire model range.

Back to Chaos Androids.

 Wilytank wrote:
I'm not sure why people call the new Necron fluff "Tomb Kings in space". You can't say that they already were Tomb Kings in space at least aesthetically. If you wanted "Tomb Kings in space" gone, you'd have to redo the entire model range.

As you said I'm sure most people who say ''Tomb Kings in space'' don't care, or at least never read about the TK. Both armies are completely different from each other, especially when it comes to the lore.

 Lord Spartacus wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
I'm not sure why people call the new Necron fluff "Tomb Kings in space". You can't say that they already were Tomb Kings in space at least aesthetically. If you wanted "Tomb Kings in space" gone, you'd have to redo the entire model range.

As you said I'm sure most people who say ''Tomb Kings in space'' don't care, or at least never read about the TK. Both armies are completely different from each other, especially when it comes to the lore.

They are not as different as you think. Both armies started off as something more powerful than they are now. Both armies had mighty empires. Both armies lost their empires (TK when they all died from Nagash, 'Crons from when they went to sleep after the Enslaver business). both armies are now fighting to re-claim what once belonged to them, while occasionally slapping each other around over old grudges. Both armies feature troops with the ability to come back from the dead. True, there is no direct correlation to the C'tan in TK lore, but given their visual similarities the other background similarities match up a lot more. Personally, I like the Newcrons a lot better than their previous boring space terminator incarnation (though I will admit to shedding a tear when I learned Pariahs had gone the way of the Squats) and I don't see anything wrong with 5th Ed 'Crons aping TKs. There are a lot of parallels between WHFB and 40K armies already, one more isn't going to end the universe.

I'm going to get flak for this, so I'll get me Brodie helmet out.

I love the history of the Great War, and I would love the Death Korp, visually I do, but, personally, I hate their fluff.

I dislike the fact that they're written as all emotionless, uncaring, dead-inside, faceless, soul-less, number assigned, walking, unthinking corpses.

One of the points of the Imperial Guard, I feel, is that they're human, and you can relate to them as human beings, but the Death Korp might as well be servitors.

Change the Korp to human beings, and they'd be my favorite regiment.

Can't say I agree with that. If they were human they wouldn't be the Death Korps anymore. They would be Cadians dressed up like World War 1 servitors.

 Tower75 wrote:
I dislike the fact that they're written as all emotionless, uncaring, dead-inside, faceless, soul-less, number assigned, walking, unthinking corpses.

Thing is, how do you think those poor men in the Great War, sat in trenches for several months* (even years for some of the poor fellows), felt? Shelled routinely, their friends & comrades being killed off around them, eating often cold rations from a tin whilst living in conditions that could be said to resemble an open sewer, in all weathers, potentially with their feet infected with trenchrot and covered in lice, waiting for that moment when someone tells them to climb up those ladders and charge towards rifles and machineguns, effectively just waiting for their turn to be wounded or killed. The inspiration for the bits you've listed, like everything from the Death Korps, come from reality.

*Including time spent away from the lines trying to get some rest before going back.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:

 Tower75 wrote:
I dislike the fact that they're written as all emotionless, uncaring, dead-inside, faceless, soul-less, number assigned, walking, unthinking corpses.

Thing is, how do you think those poor men in the Great War, sat in trenches for several months* (even years for some of the poor fellows), felt? Shelled routinely, their friends & comrades being killed off around them, eating often cold rations from a tin whilst living in conditions that could be said to resemble an open sewer, in all weathers, potentially with their feet infected with trenchrot and covered in lice, waiting for that moment when someone tells them to climb up those ladders and charge towards rifles and machineguns, effectively just waiting for their turn to be wounded or killed. The inspiration for the bits you've listed, like everything from the Death Korps, come from reality.

*Including time spent away from the lines trying to get some rest before going back.

They are humans who have dedicated themselves to a cause they felt great shame over. Willing to do everything in name of penance to the Imperium because of the betrayal. If they weren't human it wouldn't be as effective because if they were just Servitors the impact would be lost when you understand these people have given up everything, from their emotions to even their identity to serve in eternal servitude, to live and die on the battlefield for the Emperor.

Yes I know all of that (although it's less them choosing to dedicate themselves as being raised through propaganda to see that their only purpose in life is to pay their small part of the blood debt Krieg 'owes' to the Imperium for the past betrayal), I was talking about the inspiration for everything Tower75 listed that he didn't like about the Death Korps and I was pointing out where the inspiration came from.

 Sparks_Havelock wrote:
Yes I know all of that (although it's less them choosing to dedicate themselves as being raised through propaganda to see that their only purpose in life is to pay their small part of the blood debt Krieg 'owes' to the Imperium for the past betrayal), I was talking about the inspiration for everything Tower75 listed that he didn't like about the Death Korps and I was pointing out where the inspiration came from.

I had meant to quote him, my mistake.

Ah fair enough, no worries chap

squidhills wrote:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
I'm not sure why people call the new Necron fluff "Tomb Kings in space". You can't say that they already were Tomb Kings in space at least aesthetically. If you wanted "Tomb Kings in space" gone, you'd have to redo the entire model range.

As you said I'm sure most people who say ''Tomb Kings in space'' don't care, or at least never read about the TK. Both armies are completely different from each other, especially when it comes to the lore.

They are not as different as you think. Both armies started off as something more powerful than they are now. Both armies had mighty empires. Both armies lost their empires (TK when they all died from Nagash, 'Crons from when they went to sleep after the Enslaver business). both armies are now fighting to re-claim what once belonged to them, while occasionally slapping each other around over old grudges. Both armies feature troops with the ability to come back from the dead. True, there is no direct correlation to the C'tan in TK lore, but given their visual similarities the other background similarities match up a lot more. Personally, I like the Newcrons a lot better than their previous boring space terminator incarnation (though I will admit to shedding a tear when I learned Pariahs had gone the way of the Squats) and I don't see anything wrong with 5th Ed 'Crons aping TKs. There are a lot of parallels between WHFB and 40K armies already, one more isn't going to end the universe.

By that logic, Eldar and IoM are also Tomb Kings. They both had a powerful empire, that they lost most of due to some great disaster and seek to one day get their old glory back.

Well, the Eldar and IOM don't have Scarabs and bodies that just look like skeletons or giant pyramids.

 Wilytank wrote:
Well, the Eldar and IOM don't have Scarabs and bodies that just look like skeletons or giant pyramids.

They had those before the retcon though.

I would retcon the GK. They are an interesting concept, but suffer from some of the worst writing in all of 40k.

I would also retcon the SM fluff so that they are more in line with their tabletop rules. No more 10 space marines cleansing entire worlds.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I would retcon the GK. They are an interesting concept, but suffer from some of the worst writing in all of 40k.

Blame the writer, not the faction.

I would also retcon the SM fluff so that they are more in line with their tabletop rules. No more 10 space marines cleansing entire worlds.

Indeed.
Extra points when they use mainly close combat weapons.

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I would retcon the GK. They are an interesting concept, but suffer from some of the worst writing in all of 40k.

I would also retcon the SM fluff so that they are more in line with their tabletop rules. No more 10 space marines cleansing entire worlds.

This. I can suffer it in rulebooks as matter of propaganda, but in novels, its just case to me to close it and resell to another poor soul.

 da001 wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
I would retcon the GK. They are an interesting concept, but suffer from some of the worst writing in all of 40k.

Blame the writer, not the faction.

I would also retcon the SM fluff so that they are more in line with their tabletop rules. No more 10 space marines cleansing entire worlds.

Indeed.
Extra points when they use mainly close combat weapons.

Both of these are 2 things that really need to be fixed. I would like Space Marines much more if they were written with the rules in mind. And GK? Well GK do what GK are known to do...

What if they re-wrote the Codices to bring the SM in line with their fluff? o_0

 Psienesis wrote:
What if they re-wrote the Codices to bring the SM in line with their fluff? o_0

Well I mean there already is a HUGE inconsistency in Space Marines strength. In the Cron and Ork codexs they go down fairly quickly. But in C:SM they say that only 7 marines die at Black Reach (out of the whole company, fighting an entire waaagh) but the entire waaaaagh is destroyed. Just inflate their chapter numbers a bit and make their casualties realistic.

No, honestly I would not retcon DKoK. Others like them and I respect that. But they are my least favourite army in the 40K setting. They are WW1 soldiers in space. Whoop-dee-fething-do. Usually Guardsmen are OK with me because I adore the 'normal humans in a horrifying galaxy that get slaughtered but sometimes still win through due to honest human spirit' but DKoK removes that by having them being hot-housed soulless faceless characterless pointless uninteresting mind-boggingly bland soldiers. Especially the characterlessness bothers me. Korpsman #34 and #7465823658 are 100% identical for all intents and purposes. They fight on because of penance/brainwashing/most likely both, and... That's it. Even Oldcrons, hell, even Tyranids seem very deep in comparison. They at least blended soullessness with some mystery and exoticness. The Korps have nothing.

No, I would not retcon them even if I was in charge at GW, since I would not want to take them away from their fans. But if they were removed not a single tear would be shed on my part.

Oh, and I certainly like their appearance. No doubt about that. But their fluff makes me cringe.

No, no I mean, like...

If a Codex Space Marine could, with four Battle-Brothers, topple an entire planet, the way the books and things suggest they can? They'd be, like, 500 points each, not counting Wargear... but four Space Marines would own 2k points of anything else.

This is, of course, ridiculous.

 Psienesis wrote:
No, no I mean, like...

If a Codex Space Marine could, with four Battle-Brothers, topple an entire planet, the way the books and things suggest they can? They'd be, like, 500 points each, not counting Wargear... but four Space Marines would own 2k points of anything else.

This is, of course, ridiculous.

I mean the reverse of that. As in they are as brittle in the fluff as they are in the game.
EDIT: Oh nvm I know what you mean by that now.

 Psienesis wrote:
No, no I mean, like...

If a Codex Space Marine could, with four Battle-Brothers, topple an entire planet, the way the books and things suggest they can? They'd be, like, 500 points each, not counting Wargear... but four Space Marines would own 2k points of anything else.

This is, of course, ridiculous.

Can we add in a SR where if they are fighting SoB or CSM (or are allied with either), SoB and CSM get a -2 to their armor save?

Eh, if they were as brittle in fluff as in the game they would be useless. They consume massive resources in comparison to their numbers and yet in-game they are just glorified Shootaboyz without their armour. Armour that you can as well give to others.

Stormtroopers would do the same job, marginally worse but much much cheaper. No tyvm. I prefer my powermarines.

Just my 2 cents.

Of course. It would be the USR "Movie Marines", which would stipulate:

All enemies take -2 on Armor Save
All enemies will approach to within 1/2 the listed range of bolters before engaging SM forces, especially if the wargear for those models has a superior range to a boltgun.
All enemies will maintain unit coherency, to permit SM blast-weapons to score maximum casualties.
All SM have the Eternal Warrior USR *unless* they are the Force Commander *and* have a IC or SC "second".

I would retcon the Space Wolves.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

squidhills wrote:

 Lord Spartacus wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
I'm not sure why people call the new Necron fluff "Tomb Kings in space". You can't say that they already were Tomb Kings in space at least aesthetically. If you wanted "Tomb Kings in space" gone, you'd have to redo the entire model range.

As you said I'm sure most people who say ''Tomb Kings in space'' don't care, or at least never read about the TK. Both armies are completely different from each other, especially when it comes to the lore.

They are not as different as you think. Both armies started off as something more powerful than they are now. Both armies had mighty empires. Both armies lost their empires (TK when they all died from Nagash, 'Crons from when they went to sleep after the Enslaver business). both armies are now fighting to re-claim what once belonged to them, while occasionally slapping each other around over old grudges. Both armies feature troops with the ability to come back from the dead. True, there is no direct correlation to the C'tan in TK lore, but given their visual similarities the other background similarities match up a lot more. Personally, I like the Newcrons a lot better than their previous boring space terminator incarnation (though I will admit to shedding a tear when I learned Pariahs had gone the way of the Squats) and I don't see anything wrong with 5th Ed 'Crons aping TKs. There are a lot of parallels between WHFB and 40K armies already, one more isn't going to end the universe.

By that logic, Eldar and IoM are also Tomb Kings. They both had a powerful empire, that they lost most of due to some great disaster and seek to one day get their old glory back.

But the Eldar and IoM don't have armies that come back to life on the battlefield, nor do they have a preponderance of ancient-Egyptian visual themes running through their design asthetic (Thousand Sons notwithstanding). Any one of those things would not be enough to say that Necrons are TK in space, but when all of those things show up together in the same place, you get TK in Spaaaaaaaaace.