Yeah, I know, another reason to get flamed to death here but I'm hoping at least a few will give me an honest answer without insults...

I usually forget these right after the games the questions come up because I get distracted but happened to see a thread where searchlights were mentioned somewhere else.
A tau player at the local shop of course LOVES to play night fight cause he pretty much ignores it. He argues every time I use searchlights. Maybe I'm misreading something or maybe he is just being a.... Don't know, could be either.

I had believed that a unit "spotlighted" got no benefits from nightfight at all after that. So that for example, if my chimera moves forward, spotlights a unit of firewarriors and then if I wanted to fire my manticore at it or heavy weapons team or russ or whatever, the nightfight range limitation would not go into effect and they would not get the special cover save bonuses given by the nightfight rules.

Am I incorrect on this ?

I am fairly sure once you have hit a unit with the spot light for that turn they count as not being in night. So they gain no benifits. BUT the tank with the spotlight also looses that benifit of night cover.

And that means all units can in your army can hit the tau without them gaining a cover save.

The range limitation is still in effect.

Search lights negate bonuses to the unit that has been lit up (ie : shrouded/stealth bonuses) but the range restriction is not on the unit you are targeting, but on the unit doing the shooting.

So far, looks like I'm half right.

How does the wording go for the lit up unit go for ranges. I had thought that they losy all benefits of night fight and that since the limited range was a benefit...
Like it was as though that unit was no longer under "night fight". I was pretty sure of the stealth/shroud but this is the part that had me questioning myself.

 EVIL INC wrote:
So far, looks like I'm half right.

How does the wording go for the lit up unit go for ranges. I had thought that they losy all benefits of night fight and that since the limited range was a benefit...
Like it was as though that unit was no longer under "night fight". I was pretty sure of the stealth/shroud but this is the part that had me questioning myself.

Night fighting rules specify "the shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36 inches away" and that illuminated units gain no "benefit". Search lights affect the benefits to the target unit, range is determined from the shooting unit. Limited range for the shooting unit (which is also illuminated) would not be a benefit would it?

Now .. I could be wrong, but I'm 90% positive that the max range remains.

Yeah, previous discussions on this have generally gone with the 'cover save bonus is negated, range limitation is not' interpretation.

The range limitation is not a bonus that the target unit gets. It is a blanket limitation on shooting wile night fight is in effect. The searchlight has no effect on it.

Not a problem guys. I appreciate the help. At least I have some ammo to take with me next time I go to the shop and this pops up..

Rorschach9 wrote:
The range limitation is still in effect.

Search lights negate bonuses to the unit that has been lit up (ie : shrouded/stealth bonuses) but the range restriction is not on the unit you are targeting, but on the unit doing the shooting.

Which is a benefit of Nightfighting.

So the range limitation is not in effect because without the benefit of nightfighting you could target the unit in question.

 DeathReaper wrote:

Rorschach9 wrote:
The range limitation is still in effect.

Search lights negate bonuses to the unit that has been lit up (ie : shrouded/stealth bonuses) but the range restriction is not on the unit you are targeting, but on the unit doing the shooting.

Which is a benefit of Nightfighting.

So the range limitation is not in effect because without the benefit of nightfighting you could target the unit in question.

So you're saying it's a benefit to the unit being shot at yes? Sure, I can see that. However, it's not a benefit to the unit doing the shooting, which is also illuminated and loses the "benefits" of night fighting (shrouded/stealth). The unit doing the shooting must still have the 36" range restriction then, because restricting range is not a benefit.

IIRC (I will double check when back at my librabry) the vehicle with the spot light cannot benefit from it during it's shooting phase, once a unit has been illuminated, all your other units can shoot at 'illuminated' unit as if it were not night fighting, your vehicle is also no longer considered to be in the night fighting.

as I sad I'll double check the wording but I'm pretty sure it was clear

 DeathReaper wrote:
Which is a benefit of Nightfighting..

How is not being able to see a benefit?

I think he is more saying that the limiting factor to the range to shoot the unit is a benefit.

edit: spelling

To directly address the OP: The Chimera with the Searchlight must be within 36" to target the Firewarriors. It does not need to hit to 'Illuminate' the Firewarriors.

Once the Firewarriors are 'Illuminated', they no longer gain any benefit from the Night Fighting rules. As not being able to be targeted beyond 36" is clearly a benefit, the Manticore in your example would be able to freely target the Firewarriors, regardless of range.

I know I'm asking for trouble with this but my friends and I brought some real would logic into this:

Picture a illuminated baseball diamond at night, you can see it clearly, but 100m to the left you cannot see anything.

So we play it without the range limit.

RAW, is the range limit a "benefit" or not? I would say no strictly by the wording, it is a penalty to the shooter, not a benefit of the target.

Not being able to be targeted sounds like a benefit to me.

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Not being able to be targeted sounds like a benefit to me.

Except the Night Fight rules apply that as a restriction to the shooter, rather than a benefit to the target.

If the rules said that a unit could not be targeted from further than x" away, that would be a benefit to the unit.
Instead, they say that the shooter can not target a unit further than x" away. That's a restriction to the shooter, not a bonus to the target.

ok, BRB p87 for search lights, refers to nightfighting on p124.

issue: there are no set 'benefits' that nightfighting gives and there is no real definition of what illuminating does other than remove the non listed benefits.

this means that we need to work out what they mean by a benefit.

gaining stealth and shrouded are obvious ones, not being able to be shot I would personally consider to be a benefit of being in the dark, and would list it among them, least of all because the description of nightfighting and thus the limiting factor of range would be removed by being 'illuminated'.

that being said, that could be considered a RAI as RAW there actually isn't a listed benefit to nightfighting as a rule.

 insaniak wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Not being able to be targeted sounds like a benefit to me.

Except the Night Fight rules apply that as a restriction to the shooter, rather than a benefit to the target.

If the rules said that a unit could not be targeted from further than x" away, that would be a benefit to the unit.
Instead, they say that the shooter can not target a unit further than x" away. That's a restriction to the shooter, not a bonus to the target.

If nightfighting was not in effect could a unit of Missile Launcher guys (48 inch range) target a unit that was 42 inches away?

If yes, how is it not a benefit of nightfighting that the same unit can not be targeted at all?

 DeathReaper wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

Dra'al Nacht wrote:
Not being able to be targeted sounds like a benefit to me.

Except the Night Fight rules apply that as a restriction to the shooter, rather than a benefit to the target.

If the rules said that a unit could not be targeted from further than x" away, that would be a benefit to the unit.
Instead, they say that the shooter can not target a unit further than x" away. That's a restriction to the shooter, not a bonus to the target.

If nightfighting was not in effect could a unit of Missile Launcher guys (48 inch range) target a unit that was 42 inches away?

If yes, how is it not a benefit of nightfighting that the same unit can not be targeted at all?

Because it's a restriction on the firing unit, not a benefit that the targeted unit receives.

Not being able to be targeted is a benefit of the nightfighting rule.

Yes in general all benefits are losses to someone else in this game. HOWEVER, the rules state this mechanic as a restriction not as a benefit.
So as the others are saying it's not a benefit on the target it's a restriction on those targeting.

 DeathReaper wrote:
Not being able to be targeted is a benefit of the nightfighting rule.

Not according to the wording of the rule.

Night Fighting, page 124, states "The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness". The wording means that they can't shoot beyond 36" range because targets beyond that range are in the dark.

One would assume that being "illuminated" (as defined in the Searchlight entry) would therefore mean that they are not in the dark. Because they're illuminated. Which is the opposite of being in darkness.

Being super hardcore RAW, the text supports neither (there is no hard description of a 'benefit', even though anyone who argues that having Stealth and/or Shrouded is not a benefit should be shot) although it heavily implies that the range restriction is not in effect. RAI definitely supports no range limitation, because it makes absolutely no sense.

Again, "The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness"; they are unable to be shot at because they are in the dark. So, what about when they are not in the dark? You still can't shoot them? What?

Is anyone seriously trying to argue that not it is not a bonus, not being able to be targeted from more than 36" away,
So what is it then ?

And all agree that Searchlight wargear supercedes cover save bonuses, but does not supercede range limitation of night fighting.
Why, Oh that is because the max range that my unit of fire warriors can be targeted is 36", and that is not a benifit, no sir, it is actually a huge handicap for these fire warriors. These guys that believe in the greater good actually want the guardsmen to be able to target them!

What? how do you even reach that conclusion, the reasoning behind this exceeds my imagination.

fossing wrote:
Is anyone seriously trying to argue that not it is not a bonus, not being able to be targeted from more than 36" away,
So what is it then ?

It's not a benefit of the "lit up" unit.
It's explicitly a restriction on the shooting unit. It's almost like there's a difference between benefits and restrictions and targeting unit and targeted unit...

"The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness"

So this rule bequeathed by the night fighting rule, is not a benifit, for a unit that is 37" away ?
WAT?

It is a restriction on the shooting unit. Notice how it restricts the shooting unit?

It's like words matter

Shooting rules are:
1) Nominate a unit - I pick the Manticore.
There are restrictions on this, like can't be a unit that has already shot, is running, is locked in combat, etc.
2) Choose a target - I pick the spotlighted fire-warriors.
a.At this point you determine LOS, no range restriction on that.
b.Check range. Night fighting limits my range to 36" or the weapons range, whichever is less. However, the fire-warriors are not benefiting from the night fighting rules, so this rule is not in effect and I continue on.
' c.Which models can fire... (follow the book)
3) Roll to hit
And so on.

So, a spot-lighted target can be chosen over 36" away because the check range step is in the Choose a target section which is specific to the target, not the firing unit.

But the rules don't say that the target can't be shot from further than 36", which would be a benefit to the target unit. They say that a unit can't shoot an enemy more than 36" away... Which is a restriction on the shooter, not a bonus for the target. The fire warriors can never be the subject of that role, because if they're further than 36" away, they can't be the target.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is a restriction on the shooting unit. Notice how it restricts the shooting unit?

It's like words matter

Yes, words matter. And no place in the "Night Fight" rule is the word "restrict" or "restriction" used.
Nor is the word "benefit" used.
The paragraph in question lists 3 game modifications that the Night fight rule causes:
1. Units beyond 36" may not be targeted.
2. Units between 24" and 36" are treated as having the Shrouded USR.
3. Units between 12" and 24" are treated as having the Stealth USR.

The exact wording under Searchlights is:
Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting Special Rule.

RAW and RAI: A unit hit by a searchlight loses the Night Fighter Special Rule immediately.
You lose the 3 game modifications.
The downside for the shooting player: the unit that uses a search light also counts as being illuminated and loses the Night Fighter Special Rule.

If I tell you I'm being attacked by a large orange and black striped mammal with sharp claws and teeth does it take a genius to figure it's a tiger?
Similarly I can see a restriction within the rules without the words restriction. Deepstrike assaults being a common example of a restricted action.

Except it is NOT a restriction. It is a game modification.
Night Fight gives you the 3 modifications.
Searchlights remove the benefit of the rule to that one unit being lit.

The 3 modifications are not restrictions OR benefits. They are conditions. If this (range): then this (effect).

dkellyj wrote:
Except it is NOT a restriction. It is a game modification.
Night Fight gives you the 3 modifications.
Searchlights remove the benefit of the rule to that one unit being lit.

The 3 modifications are not restrictions OR benefits. They are conditions. If this (range): then this (effect).

So there are no benefits, but the searchlight removes them...?

Not true. The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away.
Units between X and Y gain Stealth/Shrouded. Note how the former refers to the shooting unit and the latter refers to the unit being shot.
Which one does a searchlight light up?

I can target any unit in sight and in range in the norm. Under this rule you cannot target units beyond x range.

How is that not a restriction on the normal permissions? Maybe I'm using a different dictionary but I'm almost sure Webster's would call it a restriction too.

You guys are adding words to the rules that do not exist to try a bolster you position.
"Restriction" and "Benefit" are not in the Night Fighting Rule.
Only a set of Conditions that are in force during the period of play that the Night Fighting rule is in effect.
If someone then uses a searchlight, the effect of the searchlight rule is to remove the Night Fighting rule from that 1 specific unit.

Exactly.
And the Night Fighting rules apply the 36" range to the shooting unit, not the unit that is lit up.

Restriction and benefit aren't in almost every rule. That doesn't mean that there isn't restrictions and benefits in the rules.

Sorry, we will have to disagree on this point.
Such is 40k.

dkellyj wrote:
Sorry, we will have to disagree on this point.
Such is 40k.

So no actual rules to support your position?
That's cool. I think it's intended to lift the 36" restriction.

dkellyj wrote:
Sorry, we will have to disagree on this point.
Such is 40k.

Such is 40k, basic laws, etiquette etc etc. All those places where they list restrictions without using the word restriction.

rigeld2 wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
Sorry, we will have to disagree on this point.
Such is 40k.

So no actual rules to support your position?
That's cool. I think it's intended to lift the 36" restriction.

Not at all. I pointed out the rules word for word.
I just don't see the point in getting into a p1ssing contest with someone who wants to add words to change the meaning of the way the rule works.
Its a game and just not that important enough to get worked up about.

No pissing contest, I am just trying to explain to you how rules work. It doesn't have to say restriction or benefit for it to be one.

Nobody is getting worked up bar yourself.

Just to be silly and throw something out that doesn't make a lot of sense. The manticore can fire barrages where it does not have to actually see the target. Because of nightfight, they cant see the target. You would think .....

dkellyj wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is a restriction on the shooting unit. Notice how it restricts the shooting unit?

It's like words matter

Yes, words matter. And no place in the "Night Fight" rule is the word "restrict" or "restriction" used.
Nor is the word "benefit" used.
The paragraph in question lists 3 game modifications that the Night fight rule causes:
1. Units beyond 36" may not be targeted.
2. Units between 24" and 36" are treated as having the Shrouded USR.
3. Units between 12" and 24" are treated as having the Stealth USR.

The exact wording under Searchlights is:
Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting Special Rule.

RAW and RAI: A unit hit by a searchlight loses the Night Fighter Special Rule immediately.
You lose the 3 game modifications.
The downside for the shooting player: the unit that uses a search light also counts as being illuminated and loses the Night Fighter Special Rule.

What he said ^^

 nutty_nutter wrote:
ok, BRB p87 for search lights, refers to nightfighting on p124.

issue: there are no set 'benefits' that nightfighting gives and there is no real definition of what illuminating does other than remove the non listed benefits.

this means that we need to work out what they mean by a benefit.

gaining stealth and shrouded are obvious ones, not being able to be shot I would personally consider to be a benefit of being in the dark, and would list it among them, least of all because the description of nightfighting and thus the limiting factor of range would be removed by being 'illuminated'.

that being said, that could be considered a RAI as RAW there actually isn't a listed benefit to nightfighting as a rule.

quoting myself for justice.

I have to ask you guys what you consider beneficial to the unit that is being targeted to begin with out of the 3 modifications that the nightfighting rule perpetuates.

as shown and stated by all of you, stealth and shrouded are obvious benefits.

now while the range 36" IS as restriction to the shooter, do you not consider it also a benefit to the target unit? I do personally.

I also feel that we should not overlook the definition of 'illuminated' and the intent of range restriction being based on being in darkness.

my point being, that if a unit is illuminated, it is no longer shrouded in darkness to receive the range restriction. while not a clear case of RAW (due to the lack of words to make both arguments iron clad) I do feel there is definite intent.

This really isn't very complicated. Night fighting applies two separate effects:

1) A rule on the firing unit that says "can't pick a target that is more than 36" away".

and

2) A rule on the target unit that says "get a cover bonus depending on how far away you are".

A searchlight removes all benefits from the target of the searchlighting unit's attack, which means effect #2. It does absolutely nothing to any rule that is not applied to that target unit, which means effect #1 still applies to every unit on the table. Note that this is completely different from things like the night vision USR, which removes the effects of night fighting entirely instead of just removing the benefit applied to one unit. If GW had intended searchlights to remove both #1 and #2 they would have used a similar rule, like "ignore the night fighting rule for everything involving the illuminated unit".

 Peregrine wrote:
This really isn't very complicated. Night fighting applies two separate effects:

1) A rule on the firing unit that says "can't pick a target that is more than 36" away".

and

2) A rule on the target unit that says "get a cover bonus depending on how far away you are".

A searchlight removes all benefits from the target of the searchlighting unit's attack, which means effect #2. It does absolutely nothing to any rule that is not applied to that target unit, which means effect #1 still applies to every unit on the table. Note that this is completely different from things like the night vision USR, which removes the effects of night fighting entirely instead of just removing the benefit applied to one unit. If GW had intended searchlights to remove both #1 and #2 they would have used a similar rule, like "ignore the night fighting rule for everything involving the illuminated unit".

but your insinuating that they are all separate and listed as such, which they are not.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
your also ignoring the intent of the range restriction, the sentence referring to darkness, and your ignoring what the searchlight actually does, in that it illuminates.

the simple facts are:

night fighting: provides stealth or shrouded dependant on distance and elects that a unit cannot be targeted more than 36" due to being wrapped in darkness.

Searchlights: illuminate the target unit, removing all the benefits that night fighting provides.

that's it. that's all the facts that we know.

there are no actual listed benefits and searchlights only claim to remove them, this is the supposition that benefits exist within the context of the rule.

however, something that appears to be very much overlooked by those on the 'range still applies' camp is that the 'darkness' part of the rule is as much a part of the rule as the range restriction.

quote from the BRB 'The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away - such units are completely hidden in the darkness.


if a unit is illuminated, as the only definition of illuminated is to be light up, they are no longer in the darkness, in this instance, does this not logically remove the range restriction on the basis that the unit is no longer in darkness?

dkellyj wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
Sorry, we will have to disagree on this point.
Such is 40k.

So no actual rules to support your position?
That's cool. I think it's intended to lift the 36" restriction.

Not at all. I pointed out the rules word for word.
I just don't see the point in getting into a p1ssing contest with someone who wants to add words to change the meaning of the way the rule works.
Its a game and just not that important enough to get worked up about.

Well, you see, the actual rules disagree with your position. The searchlight only effects the targeted unit. The range restriction is explicitly on the shooting unit. See the difference? Do you understand the difference between RAW and RAI?

rigeld2, just to ask, is the range restriction not in place because of the rule referring to darkness?

The Search-Lights are very much a broken piece of hardware thanks to the way the rules are written. Given that they are the only way for a good chunk of the armies out there to remove Night Fighting effects, it is a wonder why they have ensured they are always using sub-par rules. Their adaption to 6th edition rules did not clear the issues created by the less then originally wording chosen within the 5th edition entries, the same issues clearly exist with the new rules in place. Sadly, as I do not agree with the Rule as it is Written, it is very much obvious that restrictions exist on both parties and the poorly written rules only address one party's restrictions. In order to even target the illuminated unit the firing party would need to meet the maximum range requirements that are placed on all firing units.

They likely intended for it to be on par with other Night Vision based rules, which do remove the requirement from both parties, but they worded it very poorly....

the supposition is they did remove that restriction.

if the restriction is taken in it's entirety, the restriction on the shooter is based on the target being in darkness.

as the search light eliminates said darkness, the range restriction is also removed for that particular target, this works both ways for both the target of the searchlight and for the source of the searchlight.

The problem we keep encountering is the wording of the 'illuminated rule' itself: It simply fails to grant the permissions required to target the illuminated unit. I would agree that the inability to target the enemy would be a huge bonus and is likely meant to be removed by the illuminated results, but the wording does not back this interpenetration. Rules as Written still requires subsequent units to target the illuminated enemy which is when the range limitations are triggered. Because they are unable to target the illuminated unit, they are left just as unable to fire as if it had not been illuminated.

Probably not intended, at least I hope not, but they have not corrected this issue over multiple issues even when they re-wrote the rule in question.....

well...by definition an illuminated target is not in the dark, the range restriction is imposed because of the dark....

Which is a fluffy explanation and, sadly, pointless to a rule debate. Don't get me wrong, I am in agreement with you that an ability that illuminates a target should be pretty self explanatory. It is ridiculous to try and still state a target can not be chosen because it is still 'hidden by the darkness' when it is suffering from something called illumination. Sadly, logic and Rules as Written are not on speaking terms when it comes to this particular topic....

but the illumination is part of the rules for search lights, its not in italics and thus is a part of the rule as much as any other.

without any other definition of illumination we use the English translation, which would cover the issue as a whole....

I guess I'm having issues seeing how it 'doesn't work' as it seems straightforward to me....

 nutty_nutter wrote:
but the illumination is part of the rules for search lights, its not in italics and thus is a part of the rule as much as any other.

without any other definition of illumination we use the English translation, which would cover the issue as a whole....

I guess I'm having issues seeing how it 'doesn't work' as it seems straightforward to me....

I think you are right, the others are looking for incredibly minor flaws in a very simple rule. Everyone i know would read the searchlights rule and know what it means with out all the mumbo jumbo that these guys are trying to say. Its very straight forward and im very shocked there is even an argument about how the rule works.

It doesn't work because the targeting restriction creates an issue with the timing, a good old catch 22 issue to be precise:
In order to evoke illumination, we must target the unit.
In order to target the unit, we must evoke illumination.

Before we can even evoke illuminations ability to take away any 'benefits' from Night Fighting the unit must first be targeted by a subsequent attack. This attack requires the nomination of a target but it is at this point we encounter the issue. Night fighting rules create an additional limitation that no unit can be nominated as a target if they are outside of X inches. This creates the unique situation we are now in, a catch 22 where we need to evoke a rule in order to get permission to evoke the rule.

If you cannot target the unit in the first place with the searchlight equipped vehicle then you would never have been able to illuminate it for other units to shoot.

The point of the searchlight is to give the rest of your army the benefit of it.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
If you cannot target the unit in the first place with the searchlight equipped vehicle then you would never have been able to illuminate it for other units to shoot.

The point of the searchlight is to give the rest of your army the benefit of it.

I don't understand your point - the target was illuminated. That doesn't change that the rules attach the targeting distance to the shooting unit, not the illuminated one.

I'm sure I missed it - are you arguing intent or RAW?

dkellyj wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is a restriction on the shooting unit. Notice how it restricts the shooting unit?

It's like words matter

Yes, words matter. And no place in the "Night Fight" rule is the word "restrict" or "restriction" used.
Nor is the word "benefit" used.
The paragraph in question lists 3 game modifications that the Night fight rule causes:
1. Units beyond 36" may not be targeted.
2. Units between 24" and 36" are treated as having the Shrouded USR.
3. Units between 12" and 24" are treated as having the Stealth USR.

The exact wording under Searchlights is:
Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting Special Rule.

RAW and RAI: A unit hit by a searchlight loses the Night Fighter Special Rule immediately.
You lose the 3 game modifications.
The downside for the shooting player: the unit that uses a search light also counts as being illuminated and loses the Night Fighter Special Rule.

This.

^ No that.

Rigeld, I misunderstood a previous post. For some reason I thought it was about the initial use of the searchlight.

 Stephanius wrote:

dkellyj wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is a restriction on the shooting unit. Notice how it restricts the shooting unit?

It's like words matter

Yes, words matter. And no place in the "Night Fight" rule is the word "restrict" or "restriction" used.
Nor is the word "benefit" used.
The paragraph in question lists 3 game modifications that the Night fight rule causes:
1. Units beyond 36" may not be targeted.
2. Units between 24" and 36" are treated as having the Shrouded USR.
3. Units between 12" and 24" are treated as having the Stealth USR.

The exact wording under Searchlights is:
Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting Special Rule.

RAW and RAI: A unit hit by a searchlight loses the Night Fighter Special Rule immediately.
You lose the 3 game modifications.
The downside for the shooting player: the unit that uses a search light also counts as being illuminated and loses the Night Fighter Special Rule.

This.

Has no basis in actual rules.

And makes no sense, since he's saying that there are no benefits of Night Fight for searchlights to remove.

Consider that the entire Nightfight rule is the benefit. Distant units cant see you to shoot and you get improved cove saves depending on range.
The Search Light rule removes the BENEFIT of the Night Fight rule.

Note that the writing in the book is singular, not plural. The single benefit lost to the illuminated unit is the Nightfight rule. And everything associated with the rule (range restrictions and cover). By adding an "S" at the end you are implying the Night Fight Rule listed separate benefitS. It does not.
If the intent was to remove just parts of the Night Fight Rule, those parts would be called out. The rule would say something along the lines of "illuminated units lose cover bonuses provided by Night Fight." It does not. It says you lose the Night Fight rule. The ENTIRE rule.

dkellyj wrote:
The single benefit lost to the illuminated unit is the Nightfight rule. And everything associated with the rule (range restrictions and cover).

No, because the "can't shoot" effect is a penalty applied to the firing unit, not a benefit applied to the potential target unit.

dkellyj wrote:
If the intent was to remove just parts of the Night Fight Rule, those parts would be called out..

They are. They tell you that the target unit lose the benefit of the night fight rule, and not that the shooting unit loses the restriction imposed by it.

Night Fight imposes a benefit to a unit being shot at (improved cover save) and a restriction on the shooter (can't choose distant units as a target).

The searchlight removes the benefit from the target unit.

To me it is pretty clear that an illuminated unit can be shot at from every range, not just less than 36".

Searchlight wording is: "Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting special rule"


So, night fighting is a special rule, i check the special rules section on pages 32-43.
Nightfighting is a special rule on page 40 and described in detail in page 124

All text about ranges etc is written under the night fighting and as such, are part of this special rule.

So, when another rule tells me to disregard a special rule, i disregard everything below that special rule.

spartiatis wrote:
To me it is pretty clear that an illuminated unit can be shot at from every range, not just less than 36".

Searchlight wording is: "Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting special rule"


So, night fighting is a special rule, i check the special rules section on pages 32-43.
Nightfighting is a special rule on page 40 and described in detail in page 124

All text about ranges etc is written under the night fighting and as such, are part of this special rule.

So, when another rule tells me to disregard a special rule, i disregard everything below that special rule.

Makes perfect sense to me. I cant think of a rule that only ignores part of a special rule it specifically mentions.

spartiatis wrote:
So, when another rule tells me to disregard a special rule, i disregard everything below that special rule.

But that's not what it says. It doesn't say "disregard the night fighting rule", it says "the night fighting rule does not apply to ONE UNIT". It's just like how searchlighting a unit doesn't turn off night fighting for every other target you want to shoot at, it's a selective removal from one and only one unit. The "no targets outside 36"" rule is applied to a completely different unit, so that unit follows the night fighting rule as usual. Compare the searchlight rules to the night vision USR and you'll see the obvious difference.

dkellyj wrote:
Consider that the entire Nightfight rule is the benefit.

Why? Because you want it to be so?

It says you lose the Night Fight rule. The ENTIRE rule.

No, it does not.

 Peregrine wrote:

spartiatis wrote:
So, when another rule tells me to disregard a special rule, i disregard everything below that special rule.

But that's not what it says. It doesn't say "disregard the night fighting rule", it says "the night fighting rule does not apply to ONE UNIT". It's just like how searchlighting a unit doesn't turn off night fighting for every other target you want to shoot at, it's a selective removal from one and only one unit. The "no targets outside 36"" rule is applied to a completely different unit, so that unit follows the night fighting rule as usual. Compare the searchlight rules to the night vision USR and you'll see the obvious difference.

not wanting to sound like I'm being argumentative but if the night fighting rule does not apply to one unit does that mean that a unit that has had a searchlight shone on it is not bound by the range restriction anymore?

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

spartiatis wrote:
So, when another rule tells me to disregard a special rule, i disregard everything below that special rule.

But that's not what it says. It doesn't say "disregard the night fighting rule", it says "the night fighting rule does not apply to ONE UNIT". It's just like how searchlighting a unit doesn't turn off night fighting for every other target you want to shoot at, it's a selective removal from one and only one unit. The "no targets outside 36"" rule is applied to a completely different unit, so that unit follows the night fighting rule as usual. Compare the searchlight rules to the night vision USR and you'll see the obvious difference.

not wanting to sound like I'm being argumentative but if the night fighting rule does not apply to one unit does that mean that a unit that has had a searchlight shone on it is not bound by the range restriction anymore?

Night fighting still applies to the unit doing the shooting at that illuminated target, does it not? If so, then the shooting unit still must follow night fighting rules.
What does that mean for the shooting unit? Can't target past 36".

If you're not applying that to the shooting unit, why not? The shooting unit(s) are not given permission to remove any night fighting rule(s).

All units (both yours and your opponents) have the night fighting rule durring applied to them that turn

Search light removes the benfit of that rule from the unit targeted. So that unit looses:

1.Cover save from Stealth/Shrouding
2. The ability to target a unit of 36"

Great! So they don't get the cover save and they can target a unit in their opponents shooting phase (which is usless because they are not allowed to shoot in their opponents shooting phase)

The shooting unit still has night fight applied so they:

1. Have a cover save due to stealth/shrouding (useless, unless taking wounds from shooting in their own shooting phase)

2. Can't target a unit over 36"


Even if you ignore the word benfit and look at it this way, the shooting unit still has the restriction of the 36" as they are not the target of the searchlight.

by that logic, going second, being targeted by a searchlight means you can shoot anything on the table as you are no longer effected by night fighting......

 nutty_nutter wrote:
not wanting to sound like I'm being argumentative but if the night fighting rule does not apply to one unit does that mean that a unit that has had a searchlight shone on it is not bound by the range restriction anymore?

No, because the searchlight removes the benefits of the rule. Not being able to shoot outside 36" is a restriction, not a benefit.

Please show us in the Night Fighting Special Rule where the effects of Night Fight are separated between "BENEFITS" and "RESTRICTIONS."
***Not being able to shoot outside 36" is a restriction, not a benefit.***
It is just as easy to say not being able to be seen by something beyond 36" is a benefit to the targeted unit.

Regardless, the Searchlight Rule specifically says you loose the BENEFIT (singular) of the Night Fighting rule. Not the BENEFITS (plural) listed in the Rule; which, as already pointed out, the word "benefit" is never used in the NF rule.

That singular vs plural wording is the key function of what the searchlight does. If search-lighted, that one unit (along with the unit using the search light) loses the Night Fight Special Rule. Not parts of the rule. The entire Rule.

Right - the targeted unit loses the rule. Great.

Does the 36" range apply to the shooting unit or the unit being shot?

dkellyj wrote:
Please show us in the Night Fighting Special Rule where the effects of Night Fight are separated between "BENEFITS" and "RESTRICTIONS."

It's common sense, just like they don't define "inches" to mean the conventional unit and not some weird new system. Everyone knows what "benefit" means, so you just use that understanding to ask whether an effect of night fighting helps the unit receiving it or hurts it.

It is just as easy to say not being able to be seen by something beyond 36" is a benefit to the targeted unit.

No it isn't, because that's not the same rule. You're changing the words to something else that is not in the rulebook. The rule is "can't target", not "can't be seen", and they are not interchangeable concepts.

Regardless, the Searchlight Rule specifically says you loose the BENEFIT (singular) of the Night Fighting rule.

Yes, singular. The cover bonus is the singular benefit.

Not parts of the rule. The entire Rule.

That's not what it says. Losing the benefit of the night fighting rule is not the same thing as losing the night fighting rule. Notice the difference between searchlights and the night vision USR.

Irrelevant. Once the unit loses the NF Rule, you no longer apply ANY of the effects of the rule to a unit in that condition. One of those effects being not seen beyond 36".

The searchlight rule does not say you lose the beneficial parts (regardless of how you decide to breakout what is a benefit and what is not) of the NF rule, it says you lose the BENEFIT of the Rule.
The ENTIRE Rule is considered a benefit.

dkellyj wrote:
Irrelevant. Once the unit loses the NF Rule, you no longer apply ANY of the effects of the rule to a unit in that condition. One of those effects being not seen beyond 36".

The searchlight rule does not say you lose the beneficial parts (regardless of how you decide to breakout what is a benefit and what is not) of the NF rule, it says you lose the BENEFIT of the Rule.
The ENTIRE Rule is considered a benefit.

Let's for a moment assume that this is correct (that the ENTIRE rule is a benefit). Very well. That illuminated target can now target units outside of 36" and gains no cover save bonus
while ALL OTHER UNITS on the table still cannot target a unit outside of 36" as they are still under the effect of night fighting... really? So the illuminated target can shoot anything in it's max range (outside of 36" even) but nothing can shoot it outside of the 36" .. ok.

The rule does not say "cannot be seen beyond 36 inches". "Cannot target" has a very different meaning.

dkellyj wrote:
Irrelevant. Once the unit loses the NF Rule, you no longer apply ANY of the effects of the rule to a unit in that condition. One of those effects being not seen beyond 36".

That's incorrect.
The target unit has no effects of the Night Fighting rule applied to it.
The shooting unit, however, still has the Night Fighting rule applied to it.

I wonder if the range restriction is applied to the shooting unit or target unit. I'm sure you could clarify that for me before you make any more assertions with no basis in rules.

dkellyj wrote:
Irrelevant. Once the unit loses the NF Rule, you no longer apply ANY of the effects of the rule to a unit in that condition.

That's not what the rule says. It says it loses the benefit of the night fighting rule, not the night fighting rule. Please go back and read the exact wording of the rule.

The ENTIRE Rule is considered a benefit.

No it isn't. The rules for night fighitng clearly separate it into two effects: a distance-dependent cover bonus to the target unit, and a restriction on picking a target more than 36" away applied to every unit. You're just re-wording the second part of that into a benefit for the target and then assuming that the searchlight removes your new rule.

s for your comparison between the effects of Night Fight between Search Light and Acute Senses...you are not taking into account the 2 rules apply to 2 different conditions. Search Light is based on my unit interacting with your unit. Upon that interaction those 2 units lose the NF rule. With Acute Senses, your just ignoring the rule (as if it was never rolled for) however your unit still maintains the use of the NF Rule in your turn.

dkellyj wrote:
Yeah, GW is widely known for making "common sense" rules.

Except we're not talking about a GW rule here, we're talking about an English word.

From my point of view, not being targeted by anything beyond a specific range is a BENEFIT to the unit I'm trying to shoot from long range.

And your point of view is not what the rule says. It very clearly says that the rule is "may not pick a target", not "may not be targeted". The two are not the same and you can't just change what the rule says like that.

Again, your trying to break out 1 section of a total effect to your advantage.

Actually, as an IG player with lots of searchlights, long-range weapons, and barrage weapons this rule is to my great disadvantage. But that doesn't change what the rule says.

If you negate the rule, you negate ALL of those effects on range.

And, once again, searchlights do not negate the night fighting rule, they negate its benefits on one unit. They do not negate the "may not target outside 36"" restriction on every other unit on the table.

As you said, we are talking about the English Language.
The word is BENEFIT, singular. The BENEFIT of the Rule. Singular. The single rule. Not parts of it.
By adding the "S" to the word you are changing the meaning to imply their are separate parts of the rule that are labeled as "Benefits" and "Restrictions." Your words...that do not appear anywhere in the NF rule.

dkellyj wrote:
The word is BENEFIT, singular. The BENEFIT of the Rule. Singular. The single rule. Not parts of it.

Yes, benefit singular. The single benefit removed is the distance-dependent cove save bonus.

Your words...that do not appear anywhere in the NF rule.

Yes, because GW expects you to understand simple English sentences and know that when a rule has good things and bad things it's obvious which of the two is referred to by "benefit".

So please cite the rule that allows the searchlight to negate a rule on an unlimited amount of units.

rigeld2 wrote:
So please cite the rule that allows the searchlight to negate a rule on an unlimited amount of units.

I think I've been absolutely clear that we are talking about 2 specific units...the one being lit by the light, and the one using the light.

dkellyj wrote:
I think I've been absolutely clear that we are talking about 2 specific units...the one being lit by the light, and the one using the light.

The point you just missed was that "may not shoot at anything more than 36" away" is a rule applied to every unit on the table, not to the unit that gets illuminated by the searchlight. So please cite the rule that allows a searchlight to remove a rule from every unit on the table.

 Peregrine wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
The word is BENEFIT, singular. The BENEFIT of the Rule. Singular. The single rule. Not parts of it.

Yes, benefit singular. The single benefit removed is the distance-dependent cove save bonus.

Except distance dependent cover and the limitation on range are all inclusive under a single paragraph that discusses the effects of (not Benefits or Restrictions...words you keep adding to change the meaning of the entire rule) Night fight. Note also that NF splits the distance dependent cover into 2 separate bonus...1 for Stealth and 1 for Shrouded. Using your plurality, these would be different, multiple, benefits. Again, a plurality where none exists.

Your words...that do not appear anywhere in the NF rule.

Yes, because GW expects you to understand simple English sentences and know that when a rule has good things and bad things it's obvious which of the two is referred to by "benefit".

Understanding the difference between the singular and plural is basic English.
But lets take a look at another rule that does contain both benfits and restrictions: Infiltrate. In this case your benefit(s) are clearly spelled out in 1 para: the ability to deploy closer to the enemy; while your restrictions are spelled out in a separate para: the inability to assault with those units on Turn 1. It then lists a 3rd para with another benefit: conferring Outflkank. Followed by a 4th para restriction: ICs without cannot join and infiltrate with them.
If GW had intended the effects of NF to be separated into Benefits and Restrictions, they would have separated the different effects instead of using them together to describe the total effect of the rule.

dkellyj wrote:
If GW had intended the effects of NF to be separated into Benefits and Restrictions, they would have separated the different effects instead of using them together to describe the total effect of the rule.

You're making an assumption here that the only valid separation is making a new paragraph, and a set of sentences describing the different effects doesn't count as separate.

dkellyj wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:
So please cite the rule that allows the searchlight to negate a rule on an unlimited amount of units.

I think I've been absolutely clear that we are talking about 2 specific units...the one being lit by the light, and the one using the light.

No, you're not talking about the one using the light. You're talking about the next unit after the target has been lit up that is now shooting.

Your assertion is that the searchlight removes the night fight rule for the target unit and that includes the shooting unit. This means any shooting unit. Which means I'm sure you have a citation giving you permission to remove the night fighting rule from every shooting unit - since that's where the range restriction is. It's demonstrably not on the target unit.

 Peregrine wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
I think I've been absolutely clear that we are talking about 2 specific units...the one being lit by the light, and the one using the light.

The point you just missed was that "may not shoot at anything more than 36" away" is a rule applied to every unit on the table, not to the unit that gets illuminated by the searchlight. So please cite the rule that allows a searchlight to remove a rule from every unit on the table.

You are missing the point. No where does it say, nor have I ever implied, that Searchlights remove the NF rule from EVERY unit on the table. The Search Light rule is very clear (and I have been) that when used it removes the NF rule from the UNIT (singular) being hit by the light. In addition, the UNIT (again, singular) using the light has also lost the benefit (singular) of the NF Rule.
No other units on the table are affected...unless I use another units light to illuminate a second unit.
For example:
My Rhino illuminates you Chimera. My Devastators now shoot your Chimera with no NF cover save bonuses. Devs kill Chimera.
Then I use a second Rhino to illuminate your Russ tank. My Las-Pred now gets to shoot your Russ with no NF cover save bonuses. Pred immobilizes Russ
On your turn (still night fight) your HWS is free to shoot at my Rhino that used a search light with no restrictions (the use of the light removed the benefit of NF for that Rhino.
Your immobile Russ may now shoot at the 2nd Rhino without restriction (again, NF is benefit is removed from that Rhino.
During both those player turns, every other unit on the board was still subject to the NF Rule. since they were never lighted or used lights.

dkellyj wrote:
You are missing the point. No where does it say, nor have I ever implied, that Searchlights remove the NF rule from EVERY unit on the table.

Yes you did. The "can't choose a target more than 36" away" rule is applied to every unit on the table. To allow a unit to shoot at an illuminated unit more than 36" away you have to remove that effect from every unit on the table when trying to shoot at the illuminated unit. This is clearly against what the rule says when it removes the night fighting benefit from a SINGLE unit.

dkellyj wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
I think I've been absolutely clear that we are talking about 2 specific units...the one being lit by the light, and the one using the light.

The point you just missed was that "may not shoot at anything more than 36" away" is a rule applied to every unit on the table, not to the unit that gets illuminated by the searchlight. So please cite the rule that allows a searchlight to remove a rule from every unit on the table.

You are missing the point. No where does it say, nor have I ever implied, that Searchlights remove the NF rule from EVERY unit on the table. The Search Light rule is very clear (and I have been) that when used it removes the NF rule from the UNIT (singular) being hit by the light. In addition, the UNIT (again, singular) using the light has also lost the benefit (singular) of the NF Rule.
No other units on the table are affected...unless I use another units light to illuminate a second unit.
For example:
My Rhino illuminates you Chimera. My Las-Pred now gets to shoot your Chimera with no NF cover save bonuses. Pred kills Rhino.
Then I use a second Rhino to illuminate your Russ tank. My Vindicator now gets to shoot your Russ with no NF cover save bonuses. Vindi immobilizes Russ
On your turn (still night fight) your HWS is free to shoot at my Rhino that used a search light with no restrictions (the use of the light removed the benefit of NF for that Rhino.
Your immobile Russ may now shoot at the 2nd Rhino without restriction (again, NF is benefit is removed from that Rhino.
During both those player turns, every other unit on the board was still subject to the NF Rule. since they were never lighted or used lights.

Which unit is the 36" range restriction applied to - the target or the shooter? Simple, one word answer please.

Um...wrong. The 36" range limit is removed from the unit lighted and the unit doing the lighting. No where were we talking about "every unit on the table."
But I appreciate you trying to cloud the issue.

dkellyj wrote:
Um...wrong. The 36" range limit is removed from the unit lighted and the unit doing the lighting. No where were we talking about "every unit on the table."
But I appreciate you trying to cloud the issue.

The unit doing the lighting isn't firing.
The unit being targeted isn't firing.
The 36" range is a restriction applied to the firing unit, explicitly not the target unit.
This is a fact that you continuously ignore, to the detriment of your argument.
The 36" range does not apply to the targeted unit. It cannot ever as you are forbidden from targeting beyond that distance.

***Which unit is the 36" range restriction applied to - the target or the shooter? Simple, one word answer please.***

It is applied to the UNIT (the shooter to use your language) who does the initial Search Lighting. That unit must be within 36".
Once search lit, those 2 specific units (lighter and lightee) lose the Night Fight Rule. That means my next shooting unit can target the lighted unit at max range (missiles at 48" lets say). It also means in your shooting phase you have no range limitations should you decide to shoot the unit who used the light (your HWS also at 48"). For all other units on the board, all 3 effects of NF remain.

dkellyj wrote:

***Which unit is the 36" range restriction applied to - the target or the shooter? Simple, one word answer please.***

It is applied to the UNIT (the shooter to use your language) who does the initial Search Lighting. That unit must be within 36".
Once search lit, those 2 specific units (lighter and lightee) lose the Night Fight Rule. That means my next shooting unit can target the lighted unit at max range (missiles at 48" lets say). It also means in your shooting phase you have no range limitations should you decide to shoot the unit who used the light (your HWS also at 48"). For all other units on the board, all 3 effects of NF remain.

So you're going to ignore actual rules and make up your own?
That's not a great way to win an argument. The actual rules on page 124 show that the shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away.
See?

p124 wrote:The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away

Your assertion is that removing the Night Fighting rule for the target unit also removes it for the shooting unit. You have yet to show evidence of that however.

rigeld2 wrote:

dkellyj wrote:
Um...wrong. The 36" range limit is removed from the unit lighted and the unit doing the lighting. No where were we talking about "every unit on the table."
But I appreciate you trying to cloud the issue.

The unit doing the lighting isn't firing.
The unit being targeted isn't firing.
The 36" range is a restriction applied to the firing unit, explicitly not the target unit.
This is a fact that you continuously ignore, to the detriment of your argument.
The 36" range does not apply to the targeted unit. It cannot ever as you are forbidden from targeting beyond that distance.

What you are ignoring is the wording says you lose the BENEFIT...singular...of the NF Rule. Not benefits. Not restrictions (again, 2 words that do not appear in the NF rule).
And the wording in the NF rule is not "targeting." It says you may not PICK a unit beyond 36". Once a Search Light negates the BENEFIT of the NF rule (again, the entire rule) that caveat is also negated...for that one unit (and the one using the light).


Automatically Appended Next Post:
***So you're going to ignore actual rules and make up your own?***
Actually it is you making up rules. By changing the word BENEFIT into a plural you are changing the core intention of the rule. From negating an entire rule to negating just parts of it.
You then arbitrarily decide which of the 3 effects of NF are to become a "Benefit" to be ignored and which is to become a "restriction" to still apply.
Making up another rule by adding the words "Benefit(s)" and "restrictions" into a rule where they do not exist.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
***Your assertion is that removing the Night Fighting rule for the target unit also removes it for the shooting unit. You have yet to show evidence of that however.***
You have yet to show evidence that the NF Rule is divided between Restrictions and Benefits. You have merely taken key sentences of a paragraph that is describing the total effects of the rule and tried to break them out into different categories that do not exist in the rule.

dkellyj wrote:
What you are ignoring is the wording says you lose the BENEFIT...singular...of the NF Rule. Not benefits. Not restrictions (again, 2 words that do not appear in the NF rule).

Actually, I'm not ignoring that. It's irrelevant to my argument. Do try and keep up.

And the wording in the NF rule is not "targeting." It says you may not PICK a unit beyond 36". Once a Search Light negates the BENEFIT of the NF rule (again, the entire rule) that caveat is also negated...for that one unit (and the one using the light).

Yes, when the illuminated unit shoots it ignores the 36" range restriction. Also, you might want to look up the targeting rules - picking a target is targeting. In addition, capitalizing your words is Internet speak for yelling. I'm sure you're not trying to be rude so I'll politely ask you to stop yelling. Thanks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
***So you're going to ignore actual rules and make up your own?***
Actually it is you making up rules. By changing the word BENEFIT into a plural you are changing the core intention of the rule. From negating an entire rule to negating just parts of it.
You then arbitrarily decide which of the 3 effects of NF are to become a "Benefit" to be ignored and which is to become a "restriction" to still apply.
Making up another rule by adding the words "Benefit(s)" and "restrictions" into a rule where they do not exist.

Excuse me? Please cite in my recent posts where I've used that argument. You'll find I haven't.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
***Your assertion is that removing the Night Fighting rule for the target unit also removes it for the shooting unit. You have yet to show evidence of that however.***
You have yet to show evidence that the NF Rule is divided between Restrictions and Benefits. You have merely taken key sentences of a paragraph that is describing the total effects of the rule and tried to break them out into different categories that do not exist in the rule.

No, I'm not. Again - do try and keep up.

I've asserted that the rules show that the shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36" away. I hope you agree.
I've accepted your statement (for the sake of argument) that the searchlight completely removes the Night Fighting rule from the target.
You've asserted that removing the Night Fight rule from the target also lifts the restriction on the shooting unit. I use the word restriction not because that's how the rules term it, but because there's no other word for it. Call it a limitation, a maximum range - whatever. Hell, call it a benefit for all that it matters.
My point is that the searchlight has literally zero effect on a unit that is not the searchlighter or searchlightee.

dkellyj 566792 6335251 nullI wrote:t says you may not PICK a unit beyond 36". Once a Search Light negates the BENEFIT of the NF rule (again, the entire rule) that caveat is also negated

This does the exact opposite of what you are trying to make it do.


If a unit bound by Nightfight can not pick a target more than 36" away, and a rule removes the NF rule from that unit, then that unit can now pick a target more than 36" away. But anyone else who is still bound by the NF rule shooting at that unit will still be bound by the 36" restriction... because that restriction is placed on the shooter, not the target.

Your argument removes NF from the illuminated unit. It doesn't remove it from everyone else. So everyone else can still only fire up to 36".

***Yes, when the illuminated unit shoots it ignores the 36" range restriction.***
Wrong. An illuminated unit may still not shoot beyond 36"...unless it is specifically shooting a unit that used a Search Light (that unit having lost the NF Rule).
As the word implies (illuminated) you are no longer in the cover of night. You are exposed for the entire board to see.

***Excuse me? Please cite in my recent posts where I've used that argument. You'll find I haven't.***
6 DEC 09:44:42
Because it's a restriction on the firing unit, not a benefit that the targeted unit receives.
6 DEC 12:30:11
It's explicitly a restriction on the shooting unit. It's almost like there's a difference between benefits and restrictions and targeting unit and targeted unit...

Peregrine is the one creating a plural, but your the one creating separate categories (benefits and restrictions) based on that plurality.

***My point is that the searchlight has literally zero effect on a unit that is not the searchlighter or searchlightee.***
Your point is wrong.
Once a unit has been illuminated any subsequent firing units in that turn may now target that specific unit with no restrictions (hence why you illuminate with Transports then shoot the lightee with your Heavies at range). Cover bonuses from NF are also negated (which we agree on).
If the searchlight effects were to only apply to the specific unit using it, then it is a pointless rule since the order of operations specify you must shoot weapons first (with the 36" rule in effect) and then you can illuminate the target unit. Your unit may not use its searchlight to negate NF for its own guns.
Once my turn is over (assuming I went 1st) then in your NF turn my units that used a light have now lost the benefit of the NF rule. You may shoot them with impunity.
By your definition, the only unit without restriction to shoot my unit that used the light would be the one that was lit up.

The last 2 sentences of the Search Light rule:
Illumination lasts until the end of the following turn.
Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting special rule.

The 1st sentence is why you may shoot at my units that used lights. Using the light illuminates my own unit and the effect lasts through your turn.
That last sentence is the key. Gain no benefit. Not benefits. Nor are any specific sections of the rule called out (gain no benefit 'of cover provided by'). GW is talking about the rule in its entirety.

dkellyj wrote:
***Yes, when the illuminated unit shoots it ignores the 36" range restriction.***
Wrong. An illuminated unit may still not shoot beyond 36"...unless it is specifically shooting a unit that used a Search Light (that unit having lost the NF Rule).
As the word implies (illuminated) you are no longer in the cover of night. You are exposed for the entire board to see.

Using fluff in your argument? Or do you turn off the light during night fighting?

***Excuse me? Please cite in my recent posts where I've used that argument. You'll find I haven't.***
6 DEC 09:44:42
Because it's a restriction on the firing unit, not a benefit that the targeted unit receives.
6 DEC 12:30:11
It's explicitly a restriction on the shooting unit. It's almost like there's a difference between benefits and restrictions and targeting unit and targeted unit...

Peregrine is the one creating a plural, but your the one creating separate categories (benefits and restrictions) based on that plurality.

A). Is the quote function eluding you?
B). My argument has nothing to do with any plurality or anything else. 6 DEC is 5 days ago. I asked for recent.
C). I have to use some word to describe the 36" range. What would you prefer it to be?

***My point is that the searchlight has literally zero effect on a unit that is not the searchlighter or searchlightee.***
Your point is wrong.

Quote a rule. For once. I'm begging you to.

Once a unit has been illuminated any subsequent firing units in that turn may now target that specific unit with no restrictions (hence why you illuminate with Transports then shoot the lightee with your Heavies at range). Cover bonuses from NF are also negated (which we agree on).

Assertions should also come with rules citations. I'm sure you just forgot.

If the searchlight effects were to only apply to the specific unit using it, then it is a pointless rule since the order of operations specify you must shoot weapons first (with the 36" rule in effect) and then you can illuminate the target unit. Your unit may not use its searchlight to negate NF for its own guns.

Way to completely fail at understanding what I said. Well done, really.

Once my turn is over (assuming I went 1st) then in your NF turn my units that used a light have now lost the benefit of the NF rule. You may shoot them with impunity.
By your definition, the only unit without restriction to shoot my unit that used the light would be the one that was lit up.

Nope. That's not what I said at all.

The last 2 sentences of the Search Light rule:
Illumination lasts until the end of the following turn.
Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting special rule.

The 1st sentence is why you may shoot at my units that used lights. Using the light illuminates my own unit and the effect lasts through your turn.
That last sentence is the key. Gain no benefit. Not benefits. Nor are any specific sections of the rule called out (gain no benefit 'of cover provided by'). GW is talking about the rule in its entirety.

And I've addressed that. And you keep arguing against a point I'm not even making. Slow down, read my posts and stop fething assuming you know what I'm saying - if you don't understand, ask for clarification.

 insaniak wrote:

dkellyj 566792 6335251 nullI wrote:t says you may not PICK a unit beyond 36". Once a Search Light negates the BENEFIT of the NF rule (again, the entire rule) that caveat is also negated

This does the exact opposite of what you are trying to make it do.


If a unit bound by Nightfight can not pick a target more than 36" away, and a rule removes the NF rule from that unit, then that unit can now pick a target more than 36" away. But anyone else who is still bound by the NF rule shooting at that unit will still be bound by the 36" restriction... because that restriction is placed on the shooter, not the target.

Your argument removes NF from the illuminated unit. It doesn't remove it from everyone else. So everyone else can still only fire up to 36".

Illumination (getting spot lighted) removes the effects of NF. The 3 effects of Night Fight are GWs method of approximating the darkness of a moonless night. They are not separate entities, but a cumulative effect. The inability to see a distant object and the inability to focus on something in the dark and accurately identify what it is and exactly where it is until you get closer. Once you have illuminated a unit, everyone else on the battlefield can now see that unit and react to it.
Like your cockroaches in the kitchen. From the dining room you don't know they are their. Once you walk into the kitchen, you may notice spots on the wall, but are not sure what they are. You move closer and you can now make out individual spots moving slowly. However, shine a flashlight on those spots and suddenly your wife (still in the dining room and unable to see the bugs) can now see them scatter from the illumination of your flash (search) light. She may now shoot those bugs with harsh language and bug spray.
The roaches have lost the benefit of the dark due to your light. Of course they also see your light so they now scatter away from you since you too have lost the benefit of the dark.
Ever walk outside on a dark night and walk through a spiderweb? That's Night Fight. Turn on your porchlight and everyone now sees the spider. That's the searchlight.

dkellyj wrote:
Wrong. An illuminated unit may still not shoot beyond 36"...unless it is specifically shooting a unit that used a Search Light (that unit having lost the NF Rule).

Again, the NF rule restricts the shooter from firing more than 36". It does not restrict the target from being targetted from more than 36" away.

So if the NF rule is removed from a unit, and so that unit is no longer subject to the NF rule, why can it not target units more than 36" away?

Once a unit has been illuminated any subsequent firing units in that turn may now target that specific unit with no restrictions

Why?

Being illuminated removes the benefit of NF from the target. It does not remove restrictions from anyone else.

If the searchlight effects were to only apply to the specific unit using it,...

Nobody is saying this.

Being illuminated applies to all subsequent shooting. The point is simply that this only removes the cover bonus, because the cover bonus is a benefit that is applied to the target unit by the NF rule. The range restriction is not something that is applied to the target unit. It is applied to any unit trying to shoot while NF is in effect. So a rule that specifically removes the benefit of NF from the target unit can have no effect on the range restriction, because it doesn't address it.

The benefit is removed from the target. The range restriction is not removed from everyone else.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dkellyj wrote:
Illumination (getting spot lighted) removes the effects of NF. The 3 effects of Night Fight are GWs method of approximating the darkness of a moonless night. They are not separate entities, but a cumulative effect. The inability to see a distant object and the inability to focus on something in the dark and accurately identify what it is and exactly where it is until you get closer. Once you have illuminated a unit, everyone else on the battlefield can now see that unit and react to it.
Like your cockroaches in the kitchen. From the dining room you don't know they are their. Once you walk into the kitchen, you may notice spots on the wall, but are not sure what they are. You move closer and you can now make out individual spots moving slowly. However, shine a flashlight on those spots and suddenly your wife (still in the dining room and unable to see the bugs) can now see them scatter from the illumination of your flash (search) light. She may now shoot those bugs with harsh language and bug spray.
The roaches have lost the benefit of the dark due to your light. Of course they also see your light so they now scatter away from you since you too have lost the benefit of the dark.
Ever walk outside on a dark night and walk through a spiderweb? That's Night Fight. Turn on your porchlight and everyone now sees the spider. That's the searchlight.

Yes, I understand how a searchlight works fluffwise.

That has no impact on what the rules do.

Ok Rigel; here's what I think you are saying:
The Night Fight Rule confers 1 restriction to all units in the shooting phase; a 36" range limitation.
It also confers 1 of 2 benefits to any targeted unit, a cover save based on specific range.
If that unit is illuminated by a search light, the unit lit of (and the unit using the light) lose the cover save. However, the 36" range restriction is still in effect for all other units on the board. This restriction also applies to your units even if they are shooting the unit that used the search light.

My contention is that you are correct on the first part...cover save improvements based on range are lost.
However, I also contend that since all 3 effects (range and cover) are being used together to approximate the effect of the dark, that once a unit is illuminated they lose the entire effect of Night Fight from that instant.
They lose the benefit of the rule. Not just parts of it, but all parts of it that are creating the approximation.
While the method of that approximation has changed from 5th ed (2d6x3 range rolled for each unit; no cover saves granted) the rules for searchlights, beyond grammar, has not.
From the current IG and GK Codeci: "For the rest of the shooting phase, any unit that fires at the illuminated unit does not use the Night Fighting rule."
Grammatically, that is the same as "lose the benefit of the rule."

dkellyj wrote:
The 3 effects of Night Fight are GWs method of approximating the darkness of a moonless night.

Except we're dealing with rules, not fluff. If you want to go by the fluff then my tank with a searchlight should be able to use its searchlight before shooting the target, not fire blindly into the darkness and then finally get around to turning the searchlight on. That's the whole point of having a searchlight after all. But even though the rules don't follow the fluff that's what we have to play by.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

dkellyj wrote:
From the current IG and GK Codeci: "For the rest of the shooting phase, any unit that fires at the illuminated unit does not use the Night Fighting rule."

That rule is no longer relevant as it has been replaced by the core rulebook rules for searchlights.

Grammatically, that is the same as "lose the benefit of the rule."

No, it absolutely is NOT the same. Please stop changing the rule and then arguing based on your new rule.

***Except we're dealing with rules, not fluff.***
And English. When you lose the benefit of something, it is saying you lose everything about it. Not just bits and pieces.
The benefit of the NF rule is using everything in the rule to keep from getting shot to bits. Losing the benefit of the rule means you lose every aspect of the rule.
Benefit of the rule vs benefits in the rule.

***That rule is no longer relevant as it has been replaced by the core rulebook rules for searchlights.***
Ummm...Codex trumps BRB. So if you care to get picky, until an FAQ or a new Codex is produced the Codex rule applies.
Regardless, its 2 different ways of saying the same thing. "Lose the benefit of" vs "no longer in effect."

***No, it absolutely is NOT the same***
Ok then. What is your definition of "lose the benefit of the rule"?
Not lose the benefits contained therein or lose the beneficial parts of the rule...but "lose the benefit of the rule."

I see it like this:
Lose: No longer applies. Do not use.
Benefit: Singular. We are discussing a single item.
the Rule: The rule in its entirety. All sets and subsets of a specific group.

dkellyj wrote:
When you lose the benefit of something, it is saying you lose everything about it. Not just bits and pieces.

No you don't. Losing the benefit of something means losing the benefit, not losing everything vaguely related to that benefit.

The benefit of the NF rule is using everything in the rule to keep from getting shot to bits.

That's not what the rule says. Please stop inventing your own rules.

Ummm...Codex trumps BRB.

There is no such rule.

Also, it has been FAQed. From the IG codex FAQ:

Page 60 – Dozer Blades; Hunter-killer Missile; Searchlight;
Smoke Launchers.
Use the entries in the Warhammer 40,000 rulebook.

Regardless, its 2 different ways of saying the same thing. "Lose the benefit of" vs "no longer in effect."

It is not at all the same. If you lose the benefit of something you can still suffer the penalties of that thing, and you still have that thing if someone asks "do you have X" (even if you can't use its benefits). If something is no longer in effect EVERYTHING about it is gone.

***There is no such rule.***
Really? Codex trumping BRB is not a rule?
BRB pg 7: On rare occasions a conflict will arise between a rule in this rulebook, and one printed in a codex. Where this occurs, the rule printed in the codex always takes precedent.

FAQed...OK. still does not change my argument based on the written language being used.

***If you lose the benefit of something you can still suffer the penalties of that thing***
which brings us full circle that the Night Fighting Rule does not list benefits or penalties (restrictions). Only a set of effects the rule causes. Limited range and cover due to darkness. Remove the darkness (illumination) and you remove the effects.
But if you want to use words not in the rule; benefits and penalties (restrictions), something that limits your opponents firing range is a benefit...just ask anyone who buys a Shadow Field upgrade.

dkellyj wrote:
FAQed...OK. still does not change my argument based on the written language being used.

What argument? That an old version of the searchlight rules might have done something differently? Do you want to also insist that you roll spotting distance like you did in 5th edition?

which brings us full circle that the Night Fighting Rule does not list benefits or penalties (restrictions). Only a set of effects the rule causes. Limited range and cover due to darkness.

Yes, because GW assumes that you understand simple English sentences and can figure out what a benefit is. If you have that minimal level of reading comprehension then it's obvious that the range limit is a penalty and the range-dependent cover save is a benefit.

Remove the darkness (illumination) and you remove the effects.

That is fluff, and fluff is not rules. The searchlight removes only the specific effects of night fighting that it says it removes.

But if you want to use words not in the rule; benefits and penalties (restrictions), something that limits your opponents firing range is a benefit...just ask anyone who buys a Shadow Field upgrade.

No it isn't. You're using an inappropriately broad definition of benefit here. Benefit refers to the specific thing applied to the model, not a general state of "I'm happy with this thing".

Dkelly - so simple scenario to help you understand your error

Unit A fires at enemy unit X, using a search light. Say this unit X now has the whole of the NF rule removed from it - your contentiuon.

Unit B now wants to fire at unit X. Unit B still has the NF rule applied to it - we know this is true. One of the requirements is that Unit B cannot target a unit more than 36" away. So, this restriction is on the unit FIRING, not the unit TARGETTED - we know this to be true.

So if unit B is still over 36", removing the entire NF rule from unit X has no effect on UInit B still having the NF rule, and stil being restricted on picking a target

You are stating "cannot pick a target over 36"" is equivalent to "cannot be picked as a target if I am over 36"" - this is wrong. 100% so. One controls the firing unit - the actual, real rule - and one controls the fired-at unit.

You are, simply, wrong. The reasons for this have been shown. Even if your inital, false, contention were true, it has no effect on the outcome, as the NF rule is still in effect on the next unit to fire at the fired upon unit.

Your looking at it backwards.
Unit A illuminates unit X
Unit X loses the benefit of the NF rule (not the same as the benefits granted or in the rule...but the rule itself. Singular.
Unit B can now choose to either shoot at unit Y who still has the NF rule, or unit X who no longer has the rule (illuminated).
It is the semantic difference between losing the benefit of applying a rule in the first place, and losing the implied benefits contained within a small part of that rule.
Search Light says you lose the benefit OF the rule. Not the benefits IN the rule.

Regardless, this topic has come up before. And your point of view is the minority:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/507914.page

Here's hoping for an FAQ.
And for what its worth, the range argument is pretty irrelevant to me...my Army is designed inside of a 36" bubble. Rarely have I ever had to deal with NF range restrictions and have never held my opponent to them should he lite me up.

dkellyj wrote:
Unit X loses the benefit of the NF rule (not the same as the benefits granted or in the rule...but the rule itself. Singular.

Yes. Benefit, singular. The range-dependent cover bonus is the single benefit that is removed. Please stop inventing your own rules to argue with.

Unit B can now choose to either shoot at unit Y who still has the NF rule, or unit X who no longer has the rule (illuminated).

Yes, and regardless of which unit it chooses to shoot at unit B will still have to obey the "no picking a target more than 36" away" rule because the searchlight has done absolutely nothing to night fighting effects on unit B.

Search Light says you lose the benefit OF the rule. Not the benefits IN the rule.

And that makes no difference. The benefit of night fighting on a single unit is the range-dependent cover bonus.

Regardless, this topic has come up before. And your point of view is the minority:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/507914.page

That just means that 82% of the people who voted either can't read very well or are answering according to how they would play it, not what RAW says.

dkellyj wrote:
Your looking at it backwards.
Unit A illuminates unit X
Unit X loses the benefit of the NF rule (not the same as the benefits granted or in the rule...but the rule itself. Singular.
Unit B can now choose to either shoot at unit Y who still has the NF rule, or unit X who no longer has the rule (illuminated).
It is the semantic difference between losing the benefit of applying a rule in the first place, and losing the implied benefits contained within a small part of that rule.
Search Light says you lose the benefit OF the rule. Not the benefits IN the rule.

Regardless, this topic has come up before. And your point of view is the minority:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/507914.page

Here's hoping for an FAQ.
And for what its worth, the range argument is pretty irrelevant to me...my Army is designed inside of a 36" bubble. Rarely have I ever had to deal with NF range restrictions and have never held my opponent to them should he lite me up.

Irrelevant to you or not has no bearing on the discussion, it is a rule and should be followed as written unless house ruled. The discussion is about (afaik) the rule as it is written.

In your example above, why did you give permission for unit B to shoot at unit X outside of the 36" Night Fighting range restriction? Unit B is clearly still under the NF rule and must follow said rule, which includes (and I quote) "The shooting unit cannot pick a target more than 36 inches away" (BRB pg 124).

The shooting unit (in your example, unit B), which is still under the effects of the night fight rule, cannot pick a target more than 36" away. Period. It does not matter if the target unit has been illuminated. The rule calls out the shooting unit specifically.

your al still ignoring the fact the range restriction is put in place by the unit being in darkness, of which being illuminated is the exact opposite of being in the darkness...

 nutty_nutter wrote:
your al still ignoring the fact the range restriction is put in place by the unit being in darkness, of which being illuminated is the exact opposite of being in the darkness...

Nothing is being ignored in regards to range. The range limit (on the shooting unit) is in place based on the Night Fighting rule. Illuminated explicitly removes the benefit of Night Fighting from the illuminated unit (and the unit that used searchlights). Any other unit on the table is still 100% under the effects of the Night Fighting rule.

Being in darkness is pure fluff

 nutty_nutter wrote:
your al still ignoring the fact the range restriction is put in place by the unit being in darkness, of which being illuminated is the exact opposite of being in the darkness...

That is fluff, and fluff is not rules. It doesn't matter if the fluff is about being in darkness, all that matters is that a searchlight removes effect A from unit X, but not effect B from unit Y.

And, again, if you want to argue about fluff my tank should be able to searchlight something before shooting. But I can't, because the rules don't perfectly follow the fluff. So don't argue based on fluff.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
your al still ignoring the fact the range restriction is put in place by the unit being in darkness,

Did someone turn out the lights?

The unit being in darkness is a fluffy way of describing an in game effect.
The unit being illuminated is a fluffy way of describing that you apply another specific in game effect.

Those effects are applied not as per real world physics, but as described in the rules entries for those effects. And in this case, the effect of being illuminated is that the illuminated unit no longer gets the benefit applied by the Night Fight rule.

But there is only one benefit applied by the Night Fight rule to the illuminated unit. That's the cover bonus. The other part of the Night Fight rule, that part that imposes the range limitation, does not apply to the targeted unit. It is a restriction placed on units wishing to shoot.


Whether or not the illuminated unit is supposed to be able to be shot at from further than 36" away is debatable... and I suspect that if GW ever FAQ it, they will allow it. But I'm just not seeing that the rules as they currently stand go for that interpretation.

the darkness is very much a part of the rule, its not in ittalics, its plainly written that the range restriction is a part of the darkness' effect, illumination is the exact oposite of this.

 nutty_nutter wrote:
the darkness is very much a part of the rule, its not in ittalics, its plainly written that the range restriction is a part of the darkness' effect, illumination is the exact oposite of this.

And calling it "darkness" is pure fluff. You can't make an argument about how the "darkness" rules should work based on how real-world darkness works. On top of the general principle of "fluff is not rules" the searchlight rules very clearly do not follow realism/fluff, so arguing based on an assumption that they do is fundamentally wrong.

dkellyj wrote:
Your looking at it backwards.
Unit A illuminates unit X
Unit X loses the benefit of the NF rule (not the same as the benefits granted or in the rule...but the rule itself. Singular.
Unit B can now choose to either shoot at unit Y who still has the NF rule, or unit X who no longer has the rule (illuminated).

Yet unit B still HAS the NF rule; we know this, as the whole board army has it. And what does the NF rule, that unit B still HAS, say? That IT CANNOT TARGET a unit more than 36" away.

Again: the restriction is on the firing unit, not the unt being fired at. Removing the NF rule from the unit being fired at has no effect whatsoever on the unti firing at it, whch still has the NF rule in place. Reread the actual rule and note your error

dkellyj wrote:It is the semantic difference between losing the benefit of applying a rule in the first place, and losing the implied benefits contained within a small part of that rule.
Search Light says you lose the benefit OF the rule. Not the benefits IN the rule.

Again, you are failing to read what I wrote. I would avoid arguing semantic differences, when you are reading a restriction on the firing unit, and thinking that an effect on the fired at unit does one damn thing to the firing unit.

The restriction, that I may not target a unit over 36" away, is still on unit B. Removing the NF rule from unit X has no effect on this.


Read the actual rule, you are wrong. Plain and simple, you are wrong on this.

dkellyj wrote:Regardless, this topic has come up before. And your point of view is the minority:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/507914.page

Badly worded poll is badly worded.

Bit of a strange one. Depends if you think Nightfighting exists as 3 separate rules, or 1 rule which is dependant on distance. The rule of Night fighting is between 2 units and the 36'' is written assuming both units are under the effects of nightfighting (And why not, that is the norm), its not written to support one unit under the rule, and another not under the rule. I can see both sides, but IMO RAI was to be able to shoot at the unit which is over 36.

 Peregrine wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
the darkness is very much a part of the rule, its not in ittalics, its plainly written that the range restriction is a part of the darkness' effect, illumination is the exact oposite of this.

And calling it "darkness" is pure fluff. You can't make an argument about how the "darkness" rules should work based on how real-world darkness works. On top of the general principle of "fluff is not rules" the searchlight rules very clearly do not follow realism/fluff, so arguing based on an assumption that they do is fundamentally wrong.

it is not a presumption, darkness, through lack of any other clarity within the rulebook defaults to the English meaning, we are to imagine that the unit is in darkness. illuminates also lacks a definitive definition which we revert to the English definition which we find is the opposite of darkness.

'fluff' is written in italics, the darkness aspect is not in italics and as such is part of the rule itself to grant context, a searchlight 'illuminates' thus nullifying the darkness and any effects associated within, therein is the range restriction on being targeted.

also how exactly would the searchlight rules not function in a real world comparison? if we were to take 4 people into a filed on a pitch black night with paintball guns, where visibility was <5ft, and one guy shines a spotlight (or search light if you will) onto one of the other people, the other remaining people would be able to clearly see where those two people are and be able to shoot them unhindered while still unable to see each other or be seen by the two both being shone and the one doing the shining.

also I'm not basing on assumption, I'm basing on the two rules, in the entirety, in context and how the two interact as a whole, not part and parcel which is how the two should be taken and not broken down.

there are no rules that would allow you to ignore half of the same rule, the searchlight refers to a singular where your stating that the night fighting is multi-tiered despite there being no rule or wording to give that validity.

while I agree that it could have easily been worded better, we must apply a little logic to a game that's supposed to simulate war in the far future.

dkellyj wrote:
Your looking at it backwards.
Unit A illuminates unit X
Unit X loses the benefit of the NF rule (not the same as the benefits granted or in the rule...but the rule itself. Singular.
Unit B can now choose to either shoot at unit Y who still has the NF rule, or unit X who no longer has the rule (illuminated).
It is the semantic difference between losing the benefit of applying a rule in the first place, and losing the implied benefits contained within a small part of that rule.
Search Light says you lose the benefit OF the rule. Not the benefits IN the rule.

Does unit B still have the Night Fight rule?
Is the Night Fight rule's target distance applied to the shooter or target?

Regardless, this topic has come up before. And your point of view is the minority:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/30/507914.page

You're going to attempt to use an admitted biased poll to support your argument? That's amusing.
Here's the thing - a lot of people play this game without understanding all the rules involved.
I'd bet we could put up a poll asking if Wraith units can draw LoS and it would be overwhelmingly in favor of "yes".
Even though that's demonstrably against the rules.

Here's hoping for an FAQ.
And for what its worth, the range argument is pretty irrelevant to me...my Army is designed inside of a 36" bubble. Rarely have I ever had to deal with NF range restrictions and have never held my opponent to them should he lite me up.

So now we get to the "I don't have any rules to support my argument so I'll pretend I have the moral high ground!"
I play Nids. There's what - 2 weapons in the codex with a range farther than 36"? And only one of them is used often. And I don't use it that often.

 Nem wrote:
Bit of a strange one. Depends if you think Nightfighting exists as 3 separate rules, or 1 rule which is dependant on distance. The rule of Night fighting is between 2 units and the 36'' is written assuming both units are under the effects of nightfighting (And why not, that is the norm), its not written to support one unit under the rule, and another not under the rule. I can see both sides, but IMO RAI was to be able to shoot at the unit which is over 36.

Nem - it isnt a strange one, and doesnt require you to separate out NF at all.

As I pointed out, even if you negate the NF entirely from the lit-up unit, another unit firing at them, that HAS the NF rule, still is not allowed to target ANY unit on the board more than 36" away. There is no requirement in that restriction that the unit being targeted is still under the effects of the NF rule itself; jus tthat the firing unit has NF.

The firing unit has NF. Unless you negate the NF rule ON THE FIRING UNIT the firing unit may not target ANY unit more than 36" away.

Now - I'd like to clarify that I believe the intent is that the restriction is lifted, but I don't play that way because I prefer playing by the rules if possible.

Imperial guard codex, page 71:

"Searchlights /.../ For the rest of the shooting phase, any other unit that fires at the illuminated unit does not use the night fighting rule. ..."

IG Codex searchlights are better than BRB stock searchlights. A good day (night) to be guardsmen

Force majeure - please do others the courtesy, before replying, of reading and understanding the thread.

The IG codex has been FAQd to use the BRB. This was raised a number a posts ago.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Force majeure - please do others the courtesy, before replying, of reading and understanding the thread.

The IG codex has been FAQd to use the BRB. This was raised a number a posts ago.

Sorry, it seems like I missed that page when I went through the tread. No harm intended.

Then by all means, all NF targeting beyond 36" is by RAW impossible, lights or not.

 insaniak wrote:

 nutty_nutter wrote:
your al still ignoring the fact the range restriction is put in place by the unit being in darkness,

Did someone turn out the lights?

The unit being in darkness is a fluffy way of describing an in game effect.
The unit being illuminated is a fluffy way of describing that you apply another specific in game effect.

Those effects are applied not as per real world physics, but as described in the rules entries for those effects. And in this case, the effect of being illuminated is that the illuminated unit no longer gets the benefit applied by the Night Fight rule.

But there is only one benefit applied by the Night Fight rule to the illuminated unit. That's the cover bonus. The other part of the Night Fight rule, that part that imposes the range limitation, does not apply to the targeted unit. It is a restriction placed on units wishing to shoot.


Whether or not the illuminated unit is supposed to be able to be shot at from further than 36" away is debatable... and I suspect that if GW ever FAQ it, they will allow it. But I'm just not seeing that the rules as they currently stand go for that interpretation.

It is still a benefit that the unit could not be targeted. A restriction for the firing unit, a benefit for the target unit. It gives the targeted unit an advantage, which is by definition a benefit. Therefore they do not gain that benefit.

Christopher300 wrote:
It is still a benefit that the unit could not be targeted. A restriction for the firing unit, a benefit for the target unit. It gives the targeted unit an advantage, which is by definition a benefit. Therefore they do not gain that benefit.

Please, cite the permission to remove the Night Fighting rule from the shooting unit. Maybe you can where dkellyj could not.

I can not at this present moment. I am going from what you and others have been saying, and you talk about benefit, well its a benefit for the targetted unit.

Christopher300 wrote:
I can not at this present moment. I am going from what you and others have been saying, and you talk about benefit, well its a benefit for the targetted unit.

I haven't been saying that actually - keep up.
There are no rules that back up your assertion.
Since we know that the range limitation is tied to the shooting unit and not the "lit up" unit, you need permission to ignore the limitation on a unit other than the one effected by the searchlight.
Until you can cite rules allowing that you have no valid argument.

thats a shame

rigeld2 wrote:

Christopher300 wrote:
It is still a benefit that the unit could not be targeted. A restriction for the firing unit, a benefit for the target unit. It gives the targeted unit an advantage, which is by definition a benefit. Therefore they do not gain that benefit.

Please, cite the permission to remove the Night Fighting rule from the shooting unit. Maybe you can where dkellyj could not.

Actually I have cited it several times, you are just refusing to accept it.
The rule is based on the language used in the Search Light Rule. It clearly states an illuminated unit "loses the benefit of the Night Fight Rule."
Not the benefits in the rule, or a specifc part of the rule, but of the rule itself. The entire rule. That would include an enforced limitation on range.

I've punted this to the GWFAQ box (got a reciept email this morning).
A simple non-confrontational question that hopefully will make the next FAQ:
Q. During Night Fighting, if a unit is illuminated by a search light or other means, can units beyond 36" then target that unit?
A. Y/N.

Until then, you apparently will maintain that the Night Fight Rule is divided into specific Benefits and Penalties/Restrictions.
I will maintain that the 3 conditions are effects to simulate darkness and losing the benfit of the rule means you lose all of the effects the rule imposes.
We will not agree on this issue so it's best to let the individual house rules and TO rulings go where they may until GW decides to clarify.

dkellyj wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Christopher300 wrote:
It is still a benefit that the unit could not be targeted. A restriction for the firing unit, a benefit for the target unit. It gives the targeted unit an advantage, which is by definition a benefit. Therefore they do not gain that benefit.

Please, cite the permission to remove the Night Fighting rule from the shooting unit. Maybe you can where dkellyj could not.

Actually I have cited it several times, you are just refusing to accept it.
The rule is based on the language used in the Search Light Rule. It clearly states an illuminated unit "loses the benefit of the Night Fight Rule."
Not the benefits in the rule, or a specifc part of the rule, but of the rule itself. The entire rule. That would include an enforced limitation on range.

Answer one question:
Do the rules attach the range limitation to the shooting unit or the lit up unit?
The actual rules attached the limitation to the shooting unit. You are attaching it to the lit up unit. Since I prefer playing by the actual rules, and this forum is for discussing actual rules, you're incorrect.
You have never - not once - cited permission to remove Night Fighting from the shooting unit. You've cited permission to remove it from the lit up unit.

Until then, you apparently will maintain that the Night Fight Rule is divided into specific Benefits and Penalties/Restrictions.

That's a lie.

I will maintain that the 3 conditions are effects to simulate darkness and losing the benfit of the rule means you lose all of the effects the rule imposes.
We will not agree on this issue so it's best to let the individual house rules and TO rulings go where they may until GW decides to clarify.

Yes, the lit up unit loses the entirety of the Night Fighting rule. Absolutely. No doubt in my mind whatsoever.
It's a shame, then, that the range limitation is not applied to the lit up unit whatsoever.

***That's a lie.***
No, you just did it again. You are applying 1 part of the rule to 1 unit, and the other part of the rule to a second unit. Yet the rule is not broken intro parts. You have a single paragraph used to define what the effects of the NF rule is.

***Yes, the lit up unit loses the entirety of the Night Fighting rule. Absolutely. No doubt in my mind whatsoever.***
So your position on this is once a unit has been iluminated it loses the entirty of the NF rule. This includes the range restriction that another unit may no longer pick it as a target if beyond 36".
Thats is what I have been saying.
The range restriction is based on the condition of BOTH units having the NF conditions applied to them. If 1 of those units has lost the rule (the illuminated unit) then that restriction is lifted from all units on the board who has LoS to the illuminated unit. He is iluminated. Everyone can now see him regardless of range and he gets no cover benefits.
He has lost the benefit of the NF rule.

dkellyj wrote:
***That's a lie.***
No, you just did it again. You are applying 1 part of the rule to 1 unit, and the other part of the rule to a second unit. Yet the rule is not broken intro parts. You have a single paragraph used to define what the effects of the NF rule is.

The rule isn't broken into parts? It doesn't apply to two completely different units in completely different ways? Are you really sure?

***Yes, the lit up unit loses the entirety of the Night Fighting rule. Absolutely. No doubt in my mind whatsoever.***
So your position on this is once a unit has been iluminated it loses the entirty of the NF rule. This includes the range restriction that another unit may no longer pick it as a target if beyond 36".

No, that's not my position. The lit unit loses the entirety of the NF rule.
The shooting unit does not. And it is the shooting unit that has the range limitation, not the lit unit - despite your assertions otherwise.

The range restriction is based on the condition of BOTH units having the NF conditions applied to them.

Really? That's not what the rules say - unless you have a quote?

Also, it helps make your posts significantly more readable if you use quote tags.

dkellyj 566792 6337205 null. wrote:You are applying 1 part of the rule to 1 unit, and the other part of the rule to a second unit.

Because that's how the rule is written. It has one part that confers a cover save bonus to a unit being shot at, and another part that imposes a range restriction on a unit that wants to shoot.

Yet the rule is not broken intro parts. You have a single paragraph used to define what the effects of the NF rule is.

Being in a single paragraph doesn't mean that the rule doesn't have multiple parts. It just means that those multiple parts are listed in a single paragraph.

So your position on this is once a unit has been iluminated it loses the entirty of the NF rule. This includes the range restriction that another unit may no longer pick it as a target if beyond 36".

Please post the part of the Night Fight rule that says that a unit may not be picked as a target if it is beyond 36".

Hey quick question so i can understand the sidesaying nf is a multipart rule with the range restriction. lets say a unit is illuminated during the first player turn and then shot at, then on its turn you are all saying it can fire at anything wirh no range restriction? By your stance that is what it sounds like you are submitting.

Yes, that's what the rules say.

Kapitalist-Pig wrote:
Hey quick question so i can understand the sidesaying nf is a multipart rule with the range restriction. lets say a unit is illuminated during the first player turn and then shot at, then on its turn you are all saying it can fire at anything wirh no range restriction? By your stance that is what it sounds like you are submitting.

That's where you wind up if you go the 'being illuminated removes the whole NF rule, rather than just the part of it that is directly beneficial to the target unit' interpretation. That unit is now free to target anything on the board, but other units firing at that unit would still be bound by the range restriction.

Which is clearly not how the rule is supposed to work.


The other interpretation (that the searchlight removes the benefit, but has no effect on the range limitation as that is something imposed on other units, not the illuminated unit) results in both the target and the other units on the table still being bound by the range limitation, but the illuminated unit losing the cover bonus.


The probable RAI is for the illuminated unit to be targetable from outside 36"... but this isn't actually possible given the way the rule is written.