Hello,

I have't gotten the chance to pick up the new Escalation book that dropped yesterday. I have heard a lot about D weapons and how ridiculous some of the new rules are. Anyway, I am a Tau player and was wondering if there were stats available for the Tau Tigershark and/or Tigershark AX-1-0. I have not been able to find them anywhere.

Are there any Gargantuan Creatures or Super Heavy Vehicles for Tau?? I want to be able to keep up with it if things like the Revenant are going to be played more frequently in regular 40k matches. Are the Tigershark and AX-1-0 it (I am excluding the Manta from all of this) the only ones? I really would like to figure this out. Thanks.

Oh, and are the stats for all of the Super Heavy vehicles and Gargantuan Creatures in the Escalation book, or in a different Codex supplement book?

No, you don't get the AX-1-0. Just the dork with ion cannons.

The Escalation book contains all rules for all units that it allows you to field.

 GreyHamster wrote:
No, you don't get the AX-1-0. Just the dork with ion cannons.

The Escalation book contains all rules for all units that it allows you to field.

Why not the AX-1-0?

Ok thanks. I really need to pick up that book. Do you know the Tau vehicles that can be fielded? So the book also contains all of the stats of weapons and vehicles?

Unfortunately, Tau does not have a very good super-heavy for Escalation at the moment. They currently only have 1 - the Tiger Shark w/Ion Cannons. It's a flyer but with no Strength D guns.

That is unfortunate. So the stats for the Tiger Shark are in the Escalation book?

I wrote a review, it's in my sig and covers everything that every army has in the book.

That said, Forge World is releasing a pdf in the next few days (from what they told me when I emailed them) so there will be more options coming.

Because the design studio flipped a coin while they were writing and they decided that they hated Tau that day. Or maybe they figured they'd sold enough of the AX-1-0 and needed to move the other one.

Tau really just got the ion-cannon toting failship.

Ok thanks. It's still worth running though in a large point match?

It's ok, but nothing can really compete with the power of the D. But seriously, even the D-version of the Tiger Shark honestly isn't so bad. Why? Because it isn't a blast. It's just 1 TL-shot and so you can only kill 1 model a turn. However, if you were to put it up against the Titan, most likely it will kill the titan since most ground titans can't handle flyers.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
That is unfortunate. So the stats for the Tiger Shark are in the Escalation book?

The stats for the tiger shark are in the book, yes. All of the allowable units (so far) have stats in the book. Point costs, weapon options, weapon stats, etc.

At least Tau got a mention. Dark Eldar and Sisters don't even appear in the book!

Dark Eldar got the same entry as Eldar. The Revenant Titan.

What super heavy would the Sisters have anyway? Have they EVER had one other than Baneblade or (insert IG super heavy here)?

 jy2 wrote:
It's ok, but nothing can really compete with the power of the D. But seriously, even the D-version of the Tiger Shark honestly isn't so bad. Why? Because it isn't a blast. It's just 1 TL-shot and so you can only kill 1 model a turn. However, if you were to put it up against the Titan, most likely it will kill the titan since most ground titans can't handle flyers.

I am just slightly confused, so the Tiger Shark does shoot a D strength weapon?? Thats the only piece of info I need now. Thanks for you support.

But seriously - how do Dark Elder have a wraith titan?!? The very technology is antithetical to their way of life!

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
It's ok, but nothing can really compete with the power of the D. But seriously, even the D-version of the Tiger Shark honestly isn't so bad. Why? Because it isn't a blast. It's just 1 TL-shot and so you can only kill 1 model a turn. However, if you were to put it up against the Titan, most likely it will kill the titan since most ground titans can't handle flyers.

I am just slightly confused, so the Tiger Shark does shoot a D strength weapon?? Thats the only piece of info I need now. Thanks for you support.

The Tiger Shark in the Escalation book cannot shoot D weapons. No.

However, FW should be coming out with additional data sheets and lists of what can and can't be taken, which should include variant Tau fliers. So, you'll probably get them.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
It's ok, but nothing can really compete with the power of the D. But seriously, even the D-version of the Tiger Shark honestly isn't so bad. Why? Because it isn't a blast. It's just 1 TL-shot and so you can only kill 1 model a turn. However, if you were to put it up against the Titan, most likely it will kill the titan since most ground titans can't handle flyers.

I am just slightly confused, so the Tiger Shark does shoot a D strength weapon?? Thats the only piece of info I need now. Thanks for you support.

The one in escalation does not.
The OTHER one, who is not optional, does. (though FW said they are going to PDF some to fit into escalation soon)

Point to be said though, tigersharks cost alot more then they bring into the table. the heavy railguns is good against superheavies but little else, and the drone one (from escalation) really does nothing of value at all.

Other tau superheavies include the Manta (the coffe table of doom) and the Orca (a REALLY big flying devilfish)

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
It's ok, but nothing can really compete with the power of the D. But seriously, even the D-version of the Tiger Shark honestly isn't so bad. Why? Because it isn't a blast. It's just 1 TL-shot and so you can only kill 1 model a turn. However, if you were to put it up against the Titan, most likely it will kill the titan since most ground titans can't handle flyers.

I am just slightly confused, so the Tiger Shark does shoot a D strength weapon?? Thats the only piece of info I need now. Thanks for you support.

The one in escalation does not.
The OTHER one, who is not optional, does. (though FW said they are going to PDF some to fit into escalation soon)

Point to be said though, tigersharks cost alot more then they bring into the table. the heavy railguns is good against superheavies but little else, and the drone one (from escalation) really does nothing of value at all.

Other tau superheavies include the Manta (the coffe table of doom) and the Orca (a REALLY big flying devilfish)

We are just talking about the regular Tiger Shark right, not the AX-1-0?

When you say OTHER one, who is not optional, what does that mean? Is it not optional because FW has not released a PDF with the stats yet? How do you know it does if there has not been a PDF released for it yet? Finally, what is the most powerful Super Heavy Tau Vehicle in the game (other than the Manta)? Sorry for my lack of knowledge.

The standard Tigershark is pretty bad. It's just a large target that allows you to deepstrike drones without scattering. It's main armament is a twin-linked gun that we already have on a much cheaper aircraft and much cheaper tank, while neither of those options give your opponent an advantage if he does not bring a Lord of War. If your opponent is bringing a lord of war then you're putting a lot of points into a skyfortress that really lacks the firepower to do damage against the other Lords of War. It's also a huge point sink.

I think their logic was that it's pretty similar to the Thunderhawk, which has a S8 AP3 large blast gun and transport capacity. However the Thunderhawk can probably carry something better than gun drones and can swap out the main gun for a S D weapon.

It's one blessing is that most of the Lords of War have templates and blasts, so they can't hit it. Except for the Tyranid Harridan which would probably tear it apart.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The "other one" mentioned is the one with the twin-linked Destroyer Railgun.

The two tigersharks are the only other superheavy Tau have besides the Manta. Tau have no GC, just a couple MC like the Gnarlocs and they are pretty bad by current MC standards.

We also have the Orca which has little weaponry, it's expensive points and dollar wise, and it carries units that really have no need for a transport in the first place.

Ok thanks. It makes me want the R'Varna to come into the game even more now. With all of these titans etc. running around, it also sounds like Tau don't have much of a Super Heavy with the Tiger Shark. So if I was playing against someone running a Super Heavy, would I wan't to run it? I think that it is kind of the anti Super Heavy unit as a posed to a pure destruction unit, am I wrong?


I guess my main point is, should I get the Tiger Shark or the AX-1-0 or neither one? I just want to know if its even worth it, because if it can dispatch of other Super Heavies, it doesn't sound too bad. Is it a waste of points and money? And if it is a waste, what do you suggest I add to my army so I can dispatch of Gargantuan Creatures and Super Heavies?

The Destroyer Railgun Tigershark in fluffwise is designed to one shot superheavies. In Apoc there is actually a formation of three Tigersharks that gives them a bonus against Superheavies. However that requires a lot of Tigersharks and a desire to rid yourself of all disposable income and willing to part with redundant kidneys and lungs to pay for them.

The only good thing about the single shot than a blast that's twin-linked is that you can hit enemy flyers with it. However due to the size of most superheavies and being twinlinked, it really loses out on collateral damage.

I've been trying to justify getting one for years, but just can't bring myself to do it.

It sounds like its not worth it then Well... I guess the only thing to do i to wait for the FW PDF and see if anything gets better for Tau. I guess that I am going to have to run stuff for anti Gargantuan Creature and Super Heavies. What do you suggest that I add so I can take those down? Or do you think it will really be a won't because they will get banned?

Actually the Orca got updated (again) in IA:A, making it cheaper, and quite affordable point-wise.

If only it was now affordable $-wise.
It does come with 6 crisis suits, so its effectively "only" ~230 pounds, but that's still a LOT.

If they make it available in regular 40k as "lord of war" and recast it without all the fancy interior (so you got a sealed box with nothing intresting inside like a devilfish), and by such affordable, I bet they would sell like cupcakes.

After all, it might give the LoW advantages to the enemy, but its 4 devilfishs in 1 flying body with option to fill in suits as well, and for cheaper then what these devilfishes would be! even if less armed.
It gives a whole new life to mech-tau. if only because it allows you to drop SO much at one place.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
At least Tau got a mention. Dark Eldar and Sisters don't even appear in the book!

Look at the Eldar options again, that's for both Dark Eldar and Eldar.

I really can't imagine that selling that well. I mean the suits can already deepstrike, have decent range weaponry, and can move a lot faster potentially. I don't remember what weaponry it had on it, but I thought it wasn't really anything special.

Now if it could drop off broadsides...

 kronk wrote:
Dark Eldar got the same entry as Eldar. The Revenant Titan.

What super heavy would the Sisters have anyway? Have they EVER had one other than Baneblade or (insert IG super heavy here)?

They've never had anything listed of their own period for super heavies.

Though taking a Titan has never been outside of the realm of "possible". Especially if you put a Vulcan Megabolter and the Flamer arm on it. Effective? Probably not that much, but very characterful.

How should I update my army so I can take out things like the Revenant. Like there has to be some way, otherwise that is getting banned (IMO). I just really don't want the game to get totally screwed and crazy because of this D madness. I wan't my Tau to still be playable (O'Vesa Star) if I am going up against a Gargantuan Creature or Super Heavy. I wan't to at least still have a chance. Suggestions and thoughts?

Rail Guns. The titan is only AV12-12-10

Though with the Holo-fields, you may want to drown it in S7. It really depends if you want that +2 bonus on the damage chart or not.

Also, what's with the variable stats? Like, for the Antimatter Meteor, it says something like - S10/8/6 AP1/3/5

 Savageconvoy wrote:
I really can't imagine that selling that well. I mean the suits can already deepstrike, have decent range weaponry, and can move a lot faster potentially. I don't remember what weaponry it had on it, but I thought it wasn't really anything special.

Now if it could drop off broadsides...

It can, unlike the devilfish there are no restrictions other then model counts, and no more then 6 jetpack suits (broadsides are not jetpacks), and these would normally unable to ride transports at all.
Though it will cost quite some space. (well...only 5 spaces each broadside. you can have 3 full teams of broadsides and 12 drones to form a bubblewrap, and maybe mark a bit.)
They would still snap-fire the turn they drop, as they are moving and all.

Or, drop a fully company of 4 full size 12 taus fire warrior teams, each with 2 drones, and an ethreal in one of them.

Its amazing what you can do with 57 spaces in a 300 point model.
Sure, it can't shoot much. it just delivers anything that can into the perfect firing position. (and it allows up to 4 units to disembark each turn, so that means you can deploy them ALL at once.)



Anyway, to answer a revenant, especially with enclaves-spam some fusion suits.
If you got 2 teams of 3 double-fuision suits, you got a fair chance to kill it upon entry.
3 teams is almost an assured kill.
And that's before you count markerlight support, S7 spam assistance and the likes.
And the rear AV10? really does not like S5 spam.

I play tau as well, and as good as tau are right now I think they are getting it pretty bad as far as escalation goes...
dont get me wrong we have lots of weapons to handle it.. but nothing to match it 1 for 1

I feel like my necrons will be fun again with the Ctan
Maybe an allied army is in my future

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Why not the AX-1-0?

Because that it would have taken more than the 15 minutes GW spent on this book to look up the Tau rules and realize that the railshark is the one that anyone actually wants to use.

As for your initial question, the Tau superheavy rules are in IA:Apocalypse.

I do feel like Tau has gotten the short end of the stick here. I have already gotten into building my Tau army and am pretty deep into it. I am not going to back out now because it would be a waste of money. I think that as long as the D weapons are banned, everything is fine then. Well we might as well just wait and see what happens in the next few weeks. Is there any idea on how long we might have to wait to know what happens? More suggestions on how Tau can take these bad boys out of the fight would be much appreciated. If it continues at this rate, I think I can speak for all Tau players on this one, the R'Varna better get approved pretty soon here so we can get a large threat on the board too. Thanks for all of your support so far.

I have the Rvarna, and love it
also I am not saying quit tau by any means.. they are my favourite army to play with by far.. lots of fun
and I think once the forgeworld pdf comes out it will be a lot better

I agree with you. Do we have an estimated time of arrival for when the rules for the R'Varna will be cleared? There is a pdf on FW, but its just the rules that are being tested. Have you tested out the R'Varna in matches? If so, how has it faired? Can you also tell me why Tau are still a very viable army to play. I have gotten 3/4 of the way into building the O'Vesa Star and then all of this madness happened. I feel like my army will be totally obsolete if going up against a Revenant. Could you give me some help in figuring out how to overcome this predicament? How do you take one of these monsters or vehicles down? Crisis suits with FB? Please help me regain more faith in the army I have almost finished.

well the formation prob wont hurt..
tank hunters will definitely help you take down some armoured stuff.. also it will free up your heavy slots for some more hammerhead madness... I would think that would help


As for Rvarna.. so far I have only played 1 game with him and it was in a 3000p match against my friend nids...
It wasnt fair at all because as you know.. nids only really have 3+ saves and it wounds their MC's 3 times for each blast...

he took out over 1000p of his army in 3 turns
I think this thing was designed to rape nids...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also you could take a farsight bomb with a group of fusion crisis suits and deepstrike them right next to their Lord of War

Well, fluff-wise the R'varna was designed to destroy nids so that makes sense!

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Rail Guns. The titan is only AV12-12-10

Though with the Holo-fields, you may want to drown it in S7. It really depends if you want that +2 bonus on the damage chart or not.

Also, what's with the variable stats? Like, for the Antimatter Meteor, it says something like - S10/8/6 AP1/3/5

That's an apocalyptic blast.

You could look into some of the new fortifications. I believe they have some D for everyone.

Would the Tiger Shark AX-1-0 be the same hull points as the normal version in Escalation? (If house ruled or when made available)

What does SP mean in the IA:3 book?

Noctem wrote:
What does SP mean in the IA:3 book?

It means you have an old edition of the book and need to get the new IA3 or the new IA:Apocalypse (the Tigershark AX-1-0 rules are the same in both).

And SP was the old 4th/5th edition way of representing the extra durability of superheavies over normal vehicles, essentially each SP required a "destroyed" result to remove, with the vehicle not dying until the last SP was removed. The 6th edition Apocalypse update from FW said to convert SP to HP at a 1 SP = 3 HP rate if you find any older units that still have SP listed. But that doesn't apply in the case of the Tigershark since its new rules have HP, not SP.

Oh ok, well I don't have any book, besides Escalation for Super Heavy rules. I had just read somewhere that it was 2 SP, but that makes sense that 1 SP = 3 HP.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Ok thanks. It makes me want the R'Varna to come into the game even more now. With all of these titans etc. running around, it also sounds like Tau don't have much of a Super Heavy with the Tiger Shark. So if I was playing against someone running a Super Heavy, would I wan't to run it? I think that it is kind of the anti Super Heavy unit as a posed to a pure destruction unit, am I wrong?


I guess my main point is, should I get the Tiger Shark or the AX-1-0 or neither one? I just want to know if its even worth it, because if it can dispatch of other Super Heavies, it doesn't sound too bad. Is it a waste of points and money? And if it is a waste, what do you suggest I add to my army so I can dispatch of Gargantuan Creatures and Super Heavies?

There are 2 versions of the Tiger Shark. I don't have the book with me but I believe it is the AX-1-0 that has a TL-Destroyer gun. The normal one (found in the Escalation supplement) does not. So if you get the AX-1-0, you're going to have to ask for permission to use it in a game of Escalation. Of course, there is always the chance that they will update Escalation with units over time to cover more of the super-heavies and in a worst case scenario, you can always use it as a count-as regular Tiger Shark.

R'varna will require permission from your opponent as it is only experimental at this stage. Don't be expecting to be able to use in FW-sanctioned tournaments any time soon, however, due to its experimental rules. Other than that, that guy is nasty! If I was running a tournament, I definitely wouldn't allow him in it without modifications to his rules.

BTW, did I tell you that I just got a R'varna? The model is just so sweeeeet.

Nice!! I think that the rules are still to cheap, but the model itself is beautiful!

Being that I am running the O'Vesa Star, I am just going to make some changes on my riptides to accommodate the new Escalation rules better. I will also possibly add more FB suits to DS so I have a better chance at being able to take out the Super Heavies etc. For now, I will stick to that then. Do you guys have any suggestions on other ways that Tau can dispatch of these OP models? Especially since the Tiger Shark is such a disappointment.

Oh, and one last thing, what can the Orca drop from it. Can it take Riptides? It can take anything up to Broadsides, I know that for sure, but Riptides?

A riptide would take as much space as two broadsides, iirc.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I agree with you. Do we have an estimated time of arrival for when the rules for the R'Varna will be cleared? There is a pdf on FW, but its just the rules that are being tested. Have you tested out the R'Varna in matches? If so, how has it faired? Can you also tell me why Tau are still a very viable army to play. I have gotten 3/4 of the way into building the O'Vesa Star and then all of this madness happened. I feel like my army will be totally obsolete if going up against a Revenant. Could you give me some help in figuring out how to overcome this predicament? How do you take one of these monsters or vehicles down? Crisis suits with FB? Please help me regain more faith in the army I have almost finished.

A revenant costs like $250 dollars, do you know anyone who spent that much money on a toy?

If you're seriously so concerned about it, go buy yourself a shadowsword and ally it in with some IG or something.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I do feel like Tau has gotten the short end of the stick here. I have already gotten into building my Tau army and am pretty deep into it. I am not going to back out now because it would be a waste of money. I think that as long as the D weapons are banned, everything is fine then. Well we might as well just wait and see what happens in the next few weeks. Is there any idea on how long we might have to wait to know what happens? More suggestions on how Tau can take these bad boys out of the fight would be much appreciated. If it continues at this rate, I think I can speak for all Tau players on this one, the R'Varna better get approved pretty soon here so we can get a large threat on the board too. Thanks for all of your support so far.

Many of the Super heavy selections are not that great - although I am afriad it hard to feel sorry for the Tau with all the other toys they have been given recently.................compared to other armies especially.

It would have been better to have a more even playing field but thats no happened......ah well

Adepta Sororitas got sweet FA from the book, Dark Eldar got a Titan for no apparent reason - they do have their own FW super heavy..................

 jy2 wrote:
It's ok, but nothing can really compete with the power of the D. But seriously, even the D-version of the Tiger Shark honestly isn't so bad. Why? Because it isn't a blast. It's just 1 TL-shot and so you can only kill 1 model a turn. However, if you were to put it up against the Titan, most likely it will kill the titan since most ground titans can't handle flyers.

Or it can chose to shoot a s7 AP 3 10" blast that deviates less due to it being drone controlled. And you guys thought the baledrake was bad

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I do feel like Tau has gotten the short end of the stick here. I have already gotten into building my Tau army and am pretty deep into it. I am not going to back out now because it would be a waste of money. I think that as long as the D weapons are banned, everything is fine then. Well we might as well just wait and see what happens in the next few weeks. Is there any idea on how long we might have to wait to know what happens? More suggestions on how Tau can take these bad boys out of the fight would be much appreciated. If it continues at this rate, I think I can speak for all Tau players on this one, the R'Varna better get approved pretty soon here so we can get a large threat on the board too. Thanks for all of your support so far.

Many of the Super heavy selections are not that great - although I am afriad it hard to feel sorry for the Tau with all the other toys they have been given recently.................compared to other armies especially.

It would have been better to have a more even playing field but thats no happened......ah well

Adepta Sororitas got sweet FA from the book, Dark Eldar got a Titan for no apparent reason - they do have their own FW super heavy..................

Dark Eldar don't have any superheavies, the Tantalus is just a big skimmer.

DE have the Revenant Titan

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
It's ok, but nothing can really compete with the power of the D. But seriously, even the D-version of the Tiger Shark honestly isn't so bad. Why? Because it isn't a blast. It's just 1 TL-shot and so you can only kill 1 model a turn. However, if you were to put it up against the Titan, most likely it will kill the titan since most ground titans can't handle flyers.

Or it can chose to shoot a s7 AP 3 10" blast that deviates less due to it being drone controlled. And you guys thought the baledrake was bad

That certainly does give it some added flexibility. However, unlike the baleflamer, the Tau blast doesn't ignore cover (without the help of markerlights). Thus, you can still go-to-ground behind the Aegis for 2+ cover.

BTW, one of the most annoying things to happen to me was one of my very first games of Apoc. I fire a baneblade with a 10" blast at a unit of 10 chaos marines in area terrain. It hits and wounds 8-9. My opponent then goes-to-ground and I end up killing only 1.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
I agree with you. Do we have an estimated time of arrival for when the rules for the R'Varna will be cleared? There is a pdf on FW, but its just the rules that are being tested. Have you tested out the R'Varna in matches? If so, how has it faired? Can you also tell me why Tau are still a very viable army to play. I have gotten 3/4 of the way into building the O'Vesa Star and then all of this madness happened. I feel like my army will be totally obsolete if going up against a Revenant. Could you give me some help in figuring out how to overcome this predicament? How do you take one of these monsters or vehicles down? Crisis suits with FB? Please help me regain more faith in the army I have almost finished.

A revenant costs like $250 dollars, do you know anyone who spent that much money on a toy?

If you're seriously so concerned about it, go buy yourself a shadowsword and ally it in with some IG or something.

Super heavy has to be from your primary detachment.Unless he plays IG with tau allies he can't.

One can always go IG primary, Tau allies and then the Tau riptide/broadsides formation.

That's a lot of frickin Tau just for IG support.

What's the difference between Tau allies and Tau formation? Don't you need Tau allies for a Formation?

No, the formation is independent. That's 1 riptide and 2x3 broadsides which you can add to any army that can ally with Tau.

So you can potentially add the formation as well as an allied attachment with a Tau Commander, riptide and another 3 broadsides. That's 2 riptides and 9 broadsides just as add-ons to your Primary detachment of IG + baneblade/shadowsword!

Just HOW many points are you playing to even GET that much inside a list?!?

Dunno. I don't really play Tau. But as an estimate:

Tau Commander 165
2x Riptides 200x2
Kroots 60
9x Broadsides 630
CCS 50
2x Vet squads 140
Shadowsword 450

About 1900 so far

200 point riptides, 70 point broadsides.

You have 0 AA in your list as it seems.
Unless your riptide setup is HBC and VT, and thats far from a noteworthy setup.
Actually what kind of riptide DOES cost 200 points a piece?! I almost never get them this low. they usually go from 210 for a VT/EWO/IA setup to a 245 points ECPA/HBC/STIM supertanker in enclaves. (or 250 is I get VT instead of STIM)

So ye, you managed to shove the formation, 3 more broadsides another riptide, a buffmander and a shadowsword.

And that's ALL you have.
No troops to speak of.
No marker support (essential in making riptides useful)
No real anti-tank. (yea, the D gun is nice, but it can only kill 1 each turn)

Honestly? I'm not scared of that list, and its even beyond the limits of a 1850 turny (current standard)
MSU army with plenty of anti tank will decimate you, and that's the automatic result of FE and SoB armies, or drop-pod armies, or serpent spam, etc...

Excluding D guns, the screamerstar is worse.

I think that your suggestions are good. My only issue is that I am new to the game and have chosen to start with Tau. I don't want to make Tau my secondary detachment if I can. I have not played that may full games of 40k anyway, so I have not gotten the opportunity to see if these OP models are being played very frequently. Have more experienced people seen these models being played much more? (Yes, I understand that the book practically just came out). Now is IG the only option. I am not totally opposed to putting Tau on the secondary even though it may have sounded like I was. I just want to be able to keep up with the game. Fortunately I have alot of IG models already, so it wouldn't be that bad. Are there other options though just so I could look at them? Of course I would love to play the Revenant just because of how OP it is, but there is no space in an army to run the Revenant and ally Tau in (there might literally be a way to do it, but I don't think it would be competitively sane). So yes what are the other options with good Gargantuan Creatures or Super Heavies with D weapons? I really appreciate all of your support so far.

Plus, the release of the GC and SH make puppet master all the better making Daemons also very good (when it goes off).

 jy2 wrote:
Dunno. I don't really play Tau. But as an estimate:

Tau Commander 165
2x Riptides 200x2
Kroots 60
9x Broadsides 630
CCS 50
2x Vet squads 140
Shadowsword 450

About 1900 so far

Just a heads up a super heavy can only be attached to the primary army so keep that in mind when list building.

What do you thing about IG and Tau? What other things would work?

 Gitsmasher wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Dunno. I don't really play Tau. But as an estimate:

Tau Commander 165
2x Riptides 200x2
Kroots 60
9x Broadsides 630
CCS 50
2x Vet squads 140
Shadowsword 450

About 1900 so far

Just a heads up a super heavy can only be attached to the primary army so keep that in mind when list building.

Ig is his primary.

 BoomWolf wrote:
200 point riptides, 70 point broadsides.

You have 0 AA in your list as it seems.
Unless your riptide setup is HBC and VT, and thats far from a noteworthy setup.
Actually what kind of riptide DOES cost 200 points a piece?! I almost never get them this low. they usually go from 210 for a VT/EWO/IA setup to a 245 points ECPA/HBC/STIM supertanker in enclaves. (or 250 is I get VT instead of STIM)

So ye, you managed to shove the formation, 3 more broadsides another riptide, a buffmander and a shadowsword.

And that's ALL you have.
No troops to speak of.
No marker support (essential in making riptides useful)
No real anti-tank. (yea, the D gun is nice, but it can only kill 1 each turn)

Honestly? I'm not scared of that list, and its even beyond the limits of a 1850 turny (current standard)
MSU army with plenty of anti tank will decimate you, and that's the automatic result of FE and SoB armies, or drop-pod armies, or serpent spam, etc...

Excluding D guns, the screamerstar is worse.

This list is just a hypothetical. I never said it was good. It's just to show that you can fit all that in a list. Points are approximate as I didn't have my books with me at the time. My standard riptide config is HBC/SMS/EWO/VT for 205-pts.




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 Gitsmasher wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Dunno. I don't really play Tau. But as an estimate:

Tau Commander 165
2x Riptides 200x2
Kroots 60
9x Broadsides 630
CCS 50
2x Vet squads 140
Shadowsword 450

About 1900 so far

Just a heads up a super heavy can only be attached to the primary army so keep that in mind when list building.

In this list, IG is the primary.

Just a note from a person who plays a lot of apoc, and has used or faced a lot of super heavies;

The tau super heavies (tigershark ION, tigershark rail, orca) - none of these are very good. Tragically. I love the models, but sadly...they are terrible.

None of them are even remotely durable - I have had them shot down by just normal weapons (6hp av12 is cardboard in apoc....there are shots coming from EVERYWHERE).

The offensive capability on the rail tigershark is just not there - a single D weapon shot for 660 points is just plain underpowered.
On a fragile frame...its even wose (we don't consider the blasts useful - we have plenty of other ways in apoc to kill marines).

The ion tigershark - other than the "fun" of dropping the drones, it basically has an ion cannon. its fragile and terrible weapons.

The orca - while suits can already DS, I have to agree the ability to bring in firewarriors to deep parts of the board (transports usually don't make it more than a foot or two in apoc, we have discovered) is actually useful!
However, it too is fragile - av12, no jink, 6 hp....they crash ...a lot.
Unless you plan on loading it with a lot of troops, and using an asset to have it fly in on a back edge, then unload that turn...its just a lot of points to make a pretty crater.

There are ....tiers ...of effectiveness v.s durability and cost in apoc....tragically, the tau super heavies are poor in all of them.
(as opposed to say the necron pylon, the thunderhawk or the wolfhound with 4 D shots, or the revenant with 4 shots and good durability.).

Just my 2 cents....but there is a lot of apoc going on in my area.

Oh, don't get me wrong...I LOVE the look of the tigersharks...thats why I keep fielding them....but they are just terrible.

best of luck!

Yeah if you want to play tau and dont want to ally...
I would say just work up your defense for now and hope that FW releases some better rules for their lords of war

think of it like this.. they have a lord of war and you dont...
so kill it as fast as possible for extra VP and then you should be able to handle his small army after that.. in theory..

davethepak wrote:

The orca - while suits can already DS, I have to agree the ability to bring in firewarriors to deep parts of the board (transports usually don't make it more than a foot or two in apoc, we have discovered) is actually useful!
However, it too is fragile - av12, no jink, 6 hp....they crash ...a lot.
Unless you plan on loading it with a lot of troops, and using an asset to have it fly in on a back edge, then unload that turn...its just a lot of points to make a pretty crater.

Just note, the Orca is pretty cheap (it out-carries 4 devilfishes and costs less), and has excess to Tau vechile systems, some of improve livability of a flyer by a large factor.

Forgeworld replied to a post I made on their Facebook page, and they said that a list of Lords of Wars should be up this week!

davethepak wrote:
Just a note from a person who plays a lot of apoc, and has used or faced a lot of super heavies;

The tau super heavies (tigershark ION, tigershark rail, orca) - none of these are very good. Tragically. I love the models, but sadly...they are terrible.

None of them are even remotely durable - I have had them shot down by just normal weapons (6hp av12 is cardboard in apoc....there are shots coming from EVERYWHERE).

The offensive capability on the rail tigershark is just not there - a single D weapon shot for 660 points is just plain underpowered.
On a fragile frame...its even wose (we don't consider the blasts useful - we have plenty of other ways in apoc to kill marines).

The ion tigershark - other than the "fun" of dropping the drones, it basically has an ion cannon. its fragile and terrible weapons.

The orca - while suits can already DS, I have to agree the ability to bring in firewarriors to deep parts of the board (transports usually don't make it more than a foot or two in apoc, we have discovered) is actually useful!
However, it too is fragile - av12, no jink, 6 hp....they crash ...a lot.
Unless you plan on loading it with a lot of troops, and using an asset to have it fly in on a back edge, then unload that turn...its just a lot of points to make a pretty crater.

There are ....tiers ...of effectiveness v.s durability and cost in apoc....tragically, the tau super heavies are poor in all of them.
(as opposed to say the necron pylon, the thunderhawk or the wolfhound with 4 D shots, or the revenant with 4 shots and good durability.).

Just my 2 cents....but there is a lot of apoc going on in my area.

Oh, don't get me wrong...I LOVE the look of the tigersharks...thats why I keep fielding them....but they are just terrible.

best of luck!

I disagree with your analysis about the AX10 Tigershark, its the Taus best anti-superheavy unit, and once there aren't any superheavies, its great at popping vehicles and plastering heavy infantry. If its "taking Strength 6 shots from every angle" then you're doing it very wrong, it should be sitting well out of range of most of what can harm it for most of the battle.

Could you explain your thoughts on why the AX10 is still good in your opinion? The only problem I see is that you mentioned that its good once your opponents super heavies are gone. If they still have their's they will annihilate your AX10. I think that Tau are just gonna have to deal and take out their power house model ASAP in Escalation games.

I am very happy to hear the news about FW. I cant wait to see what changes are made!

I will be posting my army that I think would be a very good option if the D and GC and SH stay in the game as very playable at tournaments too. It is no longer the O'Vesa Star, due to the fact that it is still good, but it has a lack of FB power, making it very difficult to take down these models first turn. Instead, I will be trying out an army made up of pretty much all Crisis Suits. The link to the thread is below. Eventually I will acquire the models for both versions, but it looks like the Crisis Suit army is very good. Check it out.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/567784.page

The AX-1-0 was designed to be a Titan killer, and even ingame it's a nice Titan killer. I don't think many Titans will annihilate it...

Fluff and rules wise it seems great against Titans!

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Could you explain your thoughts on why the AX10 is still good in your opinion? The only problem I see is that you mentioned that its good once your opponents super heavies are gone. If they still have their's they will annihilate your AX10. I think that Tau are just gonna have to deal and take out their power house model ASAP in Escalation games.

The AX-1-0 is a flyer, and thus can't be hit my almost all D weapons (heavy rail guns and Gauss pylon are the only ones that come to mind). It's relatively cheap for a durable flyer with some nice weaponry. A TL weapon at over 100" range that has either StrD AP1 ot 10" blast S7 AP3. It is already BS4, which combined with strafing run makes it BS5 against ground targets (it also has a networked markerlight).

If I remember correctly the AX10 doesn't have stats yet in Escalation. Does it? What traits of the AX10 make it a Titan killer?

It has a twin-linked Heavy Rail Gun and 6 Seeker Missiles, the rules are in IA:3. I'm guessing it will be on the list of approved FW models when they make the list available.

It stats in Escalation (if and when they come) will be identical to their stats in Apocalypse (found in Imperial Armour 3: Volume 2). We already told you what makes it such a great titan killer, its a flying Strength D AP1 platform.

The one thing that really stands out about the Tigershark is it's ability to deal damage to other flying superheavies. It's probably why they didn't give us the AX-1-0, since Space Marines getting the Thunderhawk would have put the Thunderhawk at extreme risk.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I wrote a review, it's in my sig and covers everything that every army has in the book.

That said, Forge World is releasing a pdf in the next few days (from what they told me when I emailed them) so there will be more options coming.

Thanks for the review, mate. Looks to be the typical current trend of adding some "cool new aspect to the game" where not everyone has equal access or ability to take full part. Yeah it is understandable that multiple options are large forgeworld models, but limiting the space marines to ONLY the thunderhawk is just crazy. Firstly how many people are going to buy those $650USD kits? - Few. Secondly who is going to take a near $700 model to the local store for a game? - Probably no one.

I hope the forgeworld pdf balances things a little better, but I expect Sisters and Inquisitors will still have no options at all. Not as bothered by the Inqusitors not having any options, as they can ally with any of the other forces out there, like IG, which get access to many. Of course all those folks who still play sisters get the shaft once again.

Apparently it is impossible for GW to create a supplement that offers equal access and support to all armies in the game so that all players can enjoy the supplement. Instead, like with allies, those people that get the best options will want to fill their games with escalation units, while those who get lousy or no options will be left wanting to enjoy the fun, but being unable to do so.

Skriker

Well, if you haven't noticed, the Space Marines don't have any other superheavy aside from the Thunderhawk. Yes, there are the Heresy era superheavies, but if you haven't noticed, they are Heresy only, theres a reason for that, and its primarily due to fluff, not game balance.

 Skriker wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I wrote a review, it's in my sig and covers everything that every army has in the book.

That said, Forge World is releasing a pdf in the next few days (from what they told me when I emailed them) so there will be more options coming.

Thanks for the review, mate. Looks to be the typical current trend of adding some "cool new aspect to the game" where not everyone has equal access or ability to take full part. Yeah it is understandable that multiple options are large forgeworld models, but limiting the space marines to ONLY the thunderhawk is just crazy. Firstly how many people are going to buy those $650USD kits? - Few. Secondly who is going to take a near $700 model to the local store for a game? - Probably no one.

I hope the forgeworld pdf balances things a little better, but I expect Sisters and Inquisitors will still have no options at all. Not as bothered by the Inqusitors not having any options, as they can ally with any of the other forces out there, like IG, which get access to many. Of course all those folks who still play sisters get the shaft once again.

Apparently it is impossible for GW to create a supplement that offers equal access and support to all armies in the game so that all players can enjoy the supplement. Instead, like with allies, those people that get the best options will want to fill their games with escalation units, while those who get lousy or no options will be left wanting to enjoy the fun, but being unable to do so.

Skriker

Sisters and Inquisitors might get Titan access if they open those to "all Imperial Armies".

chaos0xomega wrote:
Well, if you haven't noticed, the Space Marines don't have any other superheavy aside from the Thunderhawk. Yes, there are the Heresy era superheavies, but if you haven't noticed, they are Heresy only, theres a reason for that, and its primarily due to fluff, not game balance.

The Typhon, Cerberus and Fellblade are not heresy-era exclusive and are perfectly legal to take as lords of war in any game using the escalation supplement.

 Eldar Vampire Hunter wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Well, if you haven't noticed, the Space Marines don't have any other superheavy aside from the Thunderhawk. Yes, there are the Heresy era superheavies, but if you haven't noticed, they are Heresy only, theres a reason for that, and its primarily due to fluff, not game balance.

The Typhon, Cerberus and Fellblade are not heresy-era exclusive and are perfectly legal to take as lords of war in any game using the escalation supplement.

Prove it. There are, to my knowledge, no proper 40K rules for any of those. Horus Heresy is pretty clearly a separate "game" (as per the Horus Heresy books which clearly state that army lists aren't meant for use with 40K armies due to balance issues) using the same core rules as 40K. Currently the only legal 40K Lords of War choices are the ones presented in Escalation.

Ill be tempted once again to buy the AX10 if the forgeworld rules have it in there.. assuming its not just a giant point sink

Well, I would imagine if nothing else it would still be useful for apocalypse battles... it IS a nice model at any rate... I'm pretty sure FW is going to expand our Lords of War options greatly though.

chaos0xomega wrote:
There are, to my knowledge, no proper 40K rules for any of those.

Then your knowledge is lacking. All three of those tanks have 40k rules in IA:Apocalypse or IA2 (second edition).

Currently the only legal 40K Lords of War choices are the ones presented in Escalation.

And the ones presented in IA2 second edition, and soon all the FW Apocalypse models that will be getting lord of war status in the very near future.

 KonTheory wrote:
Ill be tempted once again to buy the AX10 if the forgeworld rules have it in there.. assuming its not just a giant point sink

Cost as much as five hammerheads. Or two Orcas.

And I hear they are a royal pain to put together. They use flying bases that apparently can't handle the weight unless they're properly fixed and supported. Also they require a lot of attention when assembling because it's very thick resin pieces that tend to be warped. I'm not trying to scare anyone, just that they require a bit of work to assemble. I want to get one myself as soon as I get the space to work on one of those.

Forgeworld should just make an even more badass battlesuit thats bigger than the Rvarna and call it an apoc suit haha
Tau apoc suit... Id buy it

Well the joke has always been that Tau are the ones without a giant titan sized walker. Tau never made one because it's silly and completely impractical even by 40K standards.

If I remember right, Tau up to one point never saw a Titan and always thought it was some weird Imperium rumor/myth/superstition because it sounded so incredibly dumb to them. And it was since they stopped the Imperium from fielding Titans against them once they saw a Warhound get taken out in one shot.

 Peregrine wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
There are, to my knowledge, no proper 40K rules for any of those.

Then your knowledge is lacking. All three of those tanks have 40k rules in IA:Apocalypse or IA2 (second edition).

They're definitely not in IA: Apoc, so it must be IA2 2nd ed, which AFAIK is the newest FW book which I don't presently own.

And the ones presented in IA2 second edition, and soon all the FW Apocalypse models that will be getting lord of war status in the very near future

Note that I said *CURRENTLY*. To my knowledge (read: google turned up nothing) nothing was marked a LoW in IA2 2nd Ed (though I could be mistaken).

Sorry, so the AX10 stats will most likely be coming in the FW PDF and its not already in the game? Its good to hear the that AX10 is a Titan killer because like it was said, Tau think titans are dumb. If it comes out with the rules it already has in Apoc, would you play it?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Sorry, so the AX10 stats will most likely be coming in the FW PDF and its not already in the game

No, the stats are already published. What we're probably going to get very soon is a pdf that says "Tau may take the Tigershark, Tigershark AX-1-0, Orca, and Manta as Lord of War choices".

chaos0xomega wrote:
They're definitely not in IA: Apoc, so it must be IA2 2nd ed, which AFAIK is the newest FW book which I don't presently own.

The Tigershark is on page 123, and the Tigershark AX-1-0 is on page 124. Make sure you have the current version of the book, the one published after the new Apocalypse rules.

To my knowledge (read: google turned up nothing) nothing was marked a LoW in IA2 2nd Ed (though I could be mistaken).

Also wrong. One of the preview pages shows a LoW stamp on the transport variant of the Thunderhawk, and discussion of the book suggests that the other appropriate units got it as well.


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 KonTheory wrote:
Forgeworld should just make an even more badass battlesuit thats bigger than the Rvarna and call it an apoc suit haha
Tau apoc suit... Id buy it

Hell no. Tau shouldn't even have the Riptide according to the fluff, the last thing they need is more stupidity like that.

chaos0xomega wrote:
They're definitely not in IA: Apoc, so it must be IA2 2nd ed, which AFAIK is the newest FW book which I don't presently own.

The Tigershark is on page 123, and the Tigershark AX-1-0 is on page 124. Make sure you have the current version of the book, the one published after the new Apocalypse rules.

So I am going to buy the FW book with the AX10 stats. Is it for sure IA2 2nd vol.? Its the one with the stats on p. 124?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
So I am going to buy the FW book with the AX10 stats. Is it for sure IA2 2nd vol.? Its the one with the stats on p. 124?

No. IA2 2nd edition is a marine book. This is the one you want for the Tau models: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_APOCALYPSE.html

Ugh. With books contantly updating like this no ownder people pirate them

I would refrain from buying IA:3 2nd edition since Forgeworld may put together a PDF of useable Lords of War that extends the list in Escalation. It'll probably have the rules for them there.

Regarding the comments on the AX Tigershark...

I base my thoughts on the Tigershark AX from both using them in APOC games, and from using many other superheavies (I personally have 14 - a couple are proxies however) of my own or belonging to friends.


Durability:
Back when necrons were the only flyer and folks had not learned how to shoot them down, being a flyer and only hit on 6's meant something.
Today, its just another av12 flyer. Six hull points is nothing in apoc.
Keeping it out of range is not easy either - unless you are keeping it in reserve for several turns - there are tons of things to shoot at it.
There are units everywhere in apoc - broadsides, aegis guns, flyings MCs, baby necron sentry pylons, barbed hierodules, wave serpents etc.
Then of course many weapons in apoc are very long range (pylon has a range or what? ten feet? ).

With only AV12 you don't need D weapons to kill it. Everything from aegis guns to missile sides can take a shot ( or enemy riptides ...the ion accelerator has a decent shot as well).
Here is a better way to look at it - its as durable as two vendettas....but you don't have to split targets if you over kill one (i.e. if you do 4 HP to a vendetta, some are wasted...not true on the tigershark). For almost 700 points.
Six vendettas would have 18 TL las cannon shots, get jink saves and have 18 hull points for about the same cost profile.

However, I can say that the chaff launchers are a must have, especially if the enemy does not have D Class AA - as that helps a lot.

Offensive Capability.
A single D shot in apoc is just not reliable - many times I have rolled a 1 when hitting a Garg or MC (or a pesky character) or just plain missed.
Compare this to the volume of D shots that other D class super heavies put out (warhounds, pylons, revanants, etc.). Roll a 1 on a shot with a wolf hound? Thats ok, you have three more hits.

Yes, you can kill a land raider with it. Kill a titan in a single shot?
That means you have to make sure the void shields are down, then roll a six. Could happen. Sure, never said they might not get lucky.
But for its price range? A single D shot is not very impressive.
(yes, it can do a blast....but I have thousands of points of other models for killing infantry).

A wolfhound puts out 4 D shots for 750 points, and is exceptionally durable.
A necron plyon puts out three, is very durable.
A reaver puts out seven, and is very durable.
A revanant puts out four, is exceptionally mobile, and due to its amazing holofields - is durable.

Overall
The Tigershark is an awesome model, and yes, it can kill things.
I never said it can't kill things, it can take a hell drake out of the sky easily. But its just so fragile, that it usually does not last very long. You don't even need D weapons to kill it.

It just completely out classed in its point range.
If it were 320 points, that would be a fair cost.

Apoc is a brutal and deadly environment - there are thousands of points of units on the board - and its fun. I own about a dozen super heavies of various races and love them all.

I just recognize that in the hierarchy of functional value - the tigershark is just at the bottom of the list.

Finally
I love the tigershark - I just wish it was better. Maybe its because I have played with (and against) other super heavies so I have higher expectations.
Next week's game is a big one (24,000 points total/12,000 a side) and I will be running my Tau (my fav army). Will I use my Tigershark?
yeah, sure. While I have not given up on it yet, I just don't expect a lot out of it.

Proxy one, play it, see what you think. Maybe yours will be the star of the show. I would just suggest playing a few games before buying the model.
(in my group we are fine with people proxying models for such testing - both my tigersharks and the orca are proxies - they are the correct size and shape, and on flying stands).

Oh, and all of this was regarding the D Railgun one....the ion cannon one....heh....um.... it looks cool?

Thanks for your review on the AX10 I have some stuff to think about, thanks for your support.

 Commander_Farsight wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
They're definitely not in IA: Apoc, so it must be IA2 2nd ed, which AFAIK is the newest FW book which I don't presently own.

The Tigershark is on page 123, and the Tigershark AX-1-0 is on page 124. Make sure you have the current version of the book, the one published after the new Apocalypse rules.

So I am going to buy the FW book with the AX10 stats. Is it for sure IA2 2nd vol.? Its the one with the stats on p. 124?

If you don't have it already I would definitely pick up IA3: Taros Campaign Second Edition found here http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_VOLUME_THREE_SECOND_EDITION_-_THE_TAROS_CAMPAIGN.html


It has all the Forgeworld rules in it for Tau minus the new R'varna model as those are still experimental and came out of this was published.

Expanded list for Lords of War is on forge world.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/L/lordsofwar.pdf

Tiger Shark AX-1-0 is in.

I really appreciate you posting the link. Would you run any of them if you were going up against a (for example) Revenant? Or would you just buy yourself a new coffee table (Manta )

I have an idea. So what about Eldau? So its a primary detachment of Eldar with a Revenant, and then a Tau detachment with the Farsight melta bomb. What do you think?


So I have decided that I will buy a couple of large pizzas and then try it out in a game. Just for fun. I don't have any intention of actually buying one, but I like modeling and I am really considering just scratch building one. I would only use it in games for fun, so not competitively at all. I will try and post a battle report for that match soon. I have another thread on how to scratch build the manta so if you have some advice I would love the help. For anyone that can take off an HP, they can have a slice of pizza, lol. Anyway, is that something the community would like to see? A manta probably vs a Titan or the new Necron lord of war?