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 BoomWolf wrote:
200 point riptides, 70 point broadsides.

You have 0 AA in your list as it seems.
Unless your riptide setup is HBC and VT, and thats far from a noteworthy setup.
Actually what kind of riptide DOES cost 200 points a piece?! I almost never get them this low. they usually go from 210 for a VT/EWO/IA setup to a 245 points ECPA/HBC/STIM supertanker in enclaves. (or 250 is I get VT instead of STIM)

So ye, you managed to shove the formation, 3 more broadsides another riptide, a buffmander and a shadowsword.

And that's ALL you have.
No troops to speak of.
No marker support (essential in making riptides useful)
No real anti-tank. (yea, the D gun is nice, but it can only kill 1 each turn)

Honestly? I'm not scared of that list, and its even beyond the limits of a 1850 turny (current standard)
MSU army with plenty of anti tank will decimate you, and that's the automatic result of FE and SoB armies, or drop-pod armies, or serpent spam, etc...

Excluding D guns, the screamerstar is worse.

This list is just a hypothetical. I never said it was good. It's just to show that you can fit all that in a list. Points are approximate as I didn't have my books with me at the time. My standard riptide config is HBC/SMS/EWO/VT for 205-pts.




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 Gitsmasher wrote:

 jy2 wrote:
Dunno. I don't really play Tau. But as an estimate:

Tau Commander 165
2x Riptides 200x2
Kroots 60
9x Broadsides 630
CCS 50
2x Vet squads 140
Shadowsword 450

About 1900 so far

Just a heads up a super heavy can only be attached to the primary army so keep that in mind when list building.

In this list, IG is the primary.

Just a note from a person who plays a lot of apoc, and has used or faced a lot of super heavies;

The tau super heavies (tigershark ION, tigershark rail, orca) - none of these are very good. Tragically. I love the models, but sadly...they are terrible.

None of them are even remotely durable - I have had them shot down by just normal weapons (6hp av12 is cardboard in apoc....there are shots coming from EVERYWHERE).

The offensive capability on the rail tigershark is just not there - a single D weapon shot for 660 points is just plain underpowered.
On a fragile frame...its even wose (we don't consider the blasts useful - we have plenty of other ways in apoc to kill marines).

The ion tigershark - other than the "fun" of dropping the drones, it basically has an ion cannon. its fragile and terrible weapons.

The orca - while suits can already DS, I have to agree the ability to bring in firewarriors to deep parts of the board (transports usually don't make it more than a foot or two in apoc, we have discovered) is actually useful!
However, it too is fragile - av12, no jink, 6 hp....they crash ...a lot.
Unless you plan on loading it with a lot of troops, and using an asset to have it fly in on a back edge, then unload that turn...its just a lot of points to make a pretty crater.

There are ....tiers ...of effectiveness v.s durability and cost in apoc....tragically, the tau super heavies are poor in all of them.
(as opposed to say the necron pylon, the thunderhawk or the wolfhound with 4 D shots, or the revenant with 4 shots and good durability.).

Just my 2 cents....but there is a lot of apoc going on in my area.

Oh, don't get me wrong...I LOVE the look of the tigersharks...thats why I keep fielding them....but they are just terrible.

best of luck!

Yeah if you want to play tau and dont want to ally...
I would say just work up your defense for now and hope that FW releases some better rules for their lords of war

think of it like this.. they have a lord of war and you dont...
so kill it as fast as possible for extra VP and then you should be able to handle his small army after that.. in theory..

davethepak wrote:

The orca - while suits can already DS, I have to agree the ability to bring in firewarriors to deep parts of the board (transports usually don't make it more than a foot or two in apoc, we have discovered) is actually useful!
However, it too is fragile - av12, no jink, 6 hp....they crash ...a lot.
Unless you plan on loading it with a lot of troops, and using an asset to have it fly in on a back edge, then unload that turn...its just a lot of points to make a pretty crater.

Just note, the Orca is pretty cheap (it out-carries 4 devilfishes and costs less), and has excess to Tau vechile systems, some of improve livability of a flyer by a large factor.

Forgeworld replied to a post I made on their Facebook page, and they said that a list of Lords of Wars should be up this week!

davethepak wrote:
Just a note from a person who plays a lot of apoc, and has used or faced a lot of super heavies;

The tau super heavies (tigershark ION, tigershark rail, orca) - none of these are very good. Tragically. I love the models, but sadly...they are terrible.

None of them are even remotely durable - I have had them shot down by just normal weapons (6hp av12 is cardboard in apoc....there are shots coming from EVERYWHERE).

The offensive capability on the rail tigershark is just not there - a single D weapon shot for 660 points is just plain underpowered.
On a fragile frame...its even wose (we don't consider the blasts useful - we have plenty of other ways in apoc to kill marines).

The ion tigershark - other than the "fun" of dropping the drones, it basically has an ion cannon. its fragile and terrible weapons.

The orca - while suits can already DS, I have to agree the ability to bring in firewarriors to deep parts of the board (transports usually don't make it more than a foot or two in apoc, we have discovered) is actually useful!
However, it too is fragile - av12, no jink, 6 hp....they crash ...a lot.
Unless you plan on loading it with a lot of troops, and using an asset to have it fly in on a back edge, then unload that turn...its just a lot of points to make a pretty crater.

There are ....tiers ...of effectiveness v.s durability and cost in apoc....tragically, the tau super heavies are poor in all of them.
(as opposed to say the necron pylon, the thunderhawk or the wolfhound with 4 D shots, or the revenant with 4 shots and good durability.).

Just my 2 cents....but there is a lot of apoc going on in my area.

Oh, don't get me wrong...I LOVE the look of the tigersharks...thats why I keep fielding them....but they are just terrible.

best of luck!

I disagree with your analysis about the AX10 Tigershark, its the Taus best anti-superheavy unit, and once there aren't any superheavies, its great at popping vehicles and plastering heavy infantry. If its "taking Strength 6 shots from every angle" then you're doing it very wrong, it should be sitting well out of range of most of what can harm it for most of the battle.

Could you explain your thoughts on why the AX10 is still good in your opinion? The only problem I see is that you mentioned that its good once your opponents super heavies are gone. If they still have their's they will annihilate your AX10. I think that Tau are just gonna have to deal and take out their power house model ASAP in Escalation games.

I am very happy to hear the news about FW. I cant wait to see what changes are made!

I will be posting my army that I think would be a very good option if the D and GC and SH stay in the game as very playable at tournaments too. It is no longer the O'Vesa Star, due to the fact that it is still good, but it has a lack of FB power, making it very difficult to take down these models first turn. Instead, I will be trying out an army made up of pretty much all Crisis Suits. The link to the thread is below. Eventually I will acquire the models for both versions, but it looks like the Crisis Suit army is very good. Check it out.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/567784.page

The AX-1-0 was designed to be a Titan killer, and even ingame it's a nice Titan killer. I don't think many Titans will annihilate it...

Fluff and rules wise it seems great against Titans!

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Could you explain your thoughts on why the AX10 is still good in your opinion? The only problem I see is that you mentioned that its good once your opponents super heavies are gone. If they still have their's they will annihilate your AX10. I think that Tau are just gonna have to deal and take out their power house model ASAP in Escalation games.

The AX-1-0 is a flyer, and thus can't be hit my almost all D weapons (heavy rail guns and Gauss pylon are the only ones that come to mind). It's relatively cheap for a durable flyer with some nice weaponry. A TL weapon at over 100" range that has either StrD AP1 ot 10" blast S7 AP3. It is already BS4, which combined with strafing run makes it BS5 against ground targets (it also has a networked markerlight).

If I remember correctly the AX10 doesn't have stats yet in Escalation. Does it? What traits of the AX10 make it a Titan killer?

It has a twin-linked Heavy Rail Gun and 6 Seeker Missiles, the rules are in IA:3. I'm guessing it will be on the list of approved FW models when they make the list available.

It stats in Escalation (if and when they come) will be identical to their stats in Apocalypse (found in Imperial Armour 3: Volume 2). We already told you what makes it such a great titan killer, its a flying Strength D AP1 platform.

The one thing that really stands out about the Tigershark is it's ability to deal damage to other flying superheavies. It's probably why they didn't give us the AX-1-0, since Space Marines getting the Thunderhawk would have put the Thunderhawk at extreme risk.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I wrote a review, it's in my sig and covers everything that every army has in the book.

That said, Forge World is releasing a pdf in the next few days (from what they told me when I emailed them) so there will be more options coming.

Thanks for the review, mate. Looks to be the typical current trend of adding some "cool new aspect to the game" where not everyone has equal access or ability to take full part. Yeah it is understandable that multiple options are large forgeworld models, but limiting the space marines to ONLY the thunderhawk is just crazy. Firstly how many people are going to buy those $650USD kits? - Few. Secondly who is going to take a near $700 model to the local store for a game? - Probably no one.

I hope the forgeworld pdf balances things a little better, but I expect Sisters and Inquisitors will still have no options at all. Not as bothered by the Inqusitors not having any options, as they can ally with any of the other forces out there, like IG, which get access to many. Of course all those folks who still play sisters get the shaft once again.

Apparently it is impossible for GW to create a supplement that offers equal access and support to all armies in the game so that all players can enjoy the supplement. Instead, like with allies, those people that get the best options will want to fill their games with escalation units, while those who get lousy or no options will be left wanting to enjoy the fun, but being unable to do so.

Skriker

Well, if you haven't noticed, the Space Marines don't have any other superheavy aside from the Thunderhawk. Yes, there are the Heresy era superheavies, but if you haven't noticed, they are Heresy only, theres a reason for that, and its primarily due to fluff, not game balance.

 Skriker wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:
I wrote a review, it's in my sig and covers everything that every army has in the book.

That said, Forge World is releasing a pdf in the next few days (from what they told me when I emailed them) so there will be more options coming.

Thanks for the review, mate. Looks to be the typical current trend of adding some "cool new aspect to the game" where not everyone has equal access or ability to take full part. Yeah it is understandable that multiple options are large forgeworld models, but limiting the space marines to ONLY the thunderhawk is just crazy. Firstly how many people are going to buy those $650USD kits? - Few. Secondly who is going to take a near $700 model to the local store for a game? - Probably no one.

I hope the forgeworld pdf balances things a little better, but I expect Sisters and Inquisitors will still have no options at all. Not as bothered by the Inqusitors not having any options, as they can ally with any of the other forces out there, like IG, which get access to many. Of course all those folks who still play sisters get the shaft once again.

Apparently it is impossible for GW to create a supplement that offers equal access and support to all armies in the game so that all players can enjoy the supplement. Instead, like with allies, those people that get the best options will want to fill their games with escalation units, while those who get lousy or no options will be left wanting to enjoy the fun, but being unable to do so.

Skriker

Sisters and Inquisitors might get Titan access if they open those to "all Imperial Armies".

chaos0xomega wrote:
Well, if you haven't noticed, the Space Marines don't have any other superheavy aside from the Thunderhawk. Yes, there are the Heresy era superheavies, but if you haven't noticed, they are Heresy only, theres a reason for that, and its primarily due to fluff, not game balance.

The Typhon, Cerberus and Fellblade are not heresy-era exclusive and are perfectly legal to take as lords of war in any game using the escalation supplement.

 Eldar Vampire Hunter wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
Well, if you haven't noticed, the Space Marines don't have any other superheavy aside from the Thunderhawk. Yes, there are the Heresy era superheavies, but if you haven't noticed, they are Heresy only, theres a reason for that, and its primarily due to fluff, not game balance.

The Typhon, Cerberus and Fellblade are not heresy-era exclusive and are perfectly legal to take as lords of war in any game using the escalation supplement.

Prove it. There are, to my knowledge, no proper 40K rules for any of those. Horus Heresy is pretty clearly a separate "game" (as per the Horus Heresy books which clearly state that army lists aren't meant for use with 40K armies due to balance issues) using the same core rules as 40K. Currently the only legal 40K Lords of War choices are the ones presented in Escalation.

Ill be tempted once again to buy the AX10 if the forgeworld rules have it in there.. assuming its not just a giant point sink

Well, I would imagine if nothing else it would still be useful for apocalypse battles... it IS a nice model at any rate... I'm pretty sure FW is going to expand our Lords of War options greatly though.

chaos0xomega wrote:
There are, to my knowledge, no proper 40K rules for any of those.

Then your knowledge is lacking. All three of those tanks have 40k rules in IA:Apocalypse or IA2 (second edition).

Currently the only legal 40K Lords of War choices are the ones presented in Escalation.

And the ones presented in IA2 second edition, and soon all the FW Apocalypse models that will be getting lord of war status in the very near future.

 KonTheory wrote:
Ill be tempted once again to buy the AX10 if the forgeworld rules have it in there.. assuming its not just a giant point sink

Cost as much as five hammerheads. Or two Orcas.

And I hear they are a royal pain to put together. They use flying bases that apparently can't handle the weight unless they're properly fixed and supported. Also they require a lot of attention when assembling because it's very thick resin pieces that tend to be warped. I'm not trying to scare anyone, just that they require a bit of work to assemble. I want to get one myself as soon as I get the space to work on one of those.

Forgeworld should just make an even more badass battlesuit thats bigger than the Rvarna and call it an apoc suit haha
Tau apoc suit... Id buy it

Well the joke has always been that Tau are the ones without a giant titan sized walker. Tau never made one because it's silly and completely impractical even by 40K standards.

If I remember right, Tau up to one point never saw a Titan and always thought it was some weird Imperium rumor/myth/superstition because it sounded so incredibly dumb to them. And it was since they stopped the Imperium from fielding Titans against them once they saw a Warhound get taken out in one shot.

 Peregrine wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
There are, to my knowledge, no proper 40K rules for any of those.

Then your knowledge is lacking. All three of those tanks have 40k rules in IA:Apocalypse or IA2 (second edition).

They're definitely not in IA: Apoc, so it must be IA2 2nd ed, which AFAIK is the newest FW book which I don't presently own.

And the ones presented in IA2 second edition, and soon all the FW Apocalypse models that will be getting lord of war status in the very near future

Note that I said *CURRENTLY*. To my knowledge (read: google turned up nothing) nothing was marked a LoW in IA2 2nd Ed (though I could be mistaken).

Sorry, so the AX10 stats will most likely be coming in the FW PDF and its not already in the game? Its good to hear the that AX10 is a Titan killer because like it was said, Tau think titans are dumb. If it comes out with the rules it already has in Apoc, would you play it?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Sorry, so the AX10 stats will most likely be coming in the FW PDF and its not already in the game

No, the stats are already published. What we're probably going to get very soon is a pdf that says "Tau may take the Tigershark, Tigershark AX-1-0, Orca, and Manta as Lord of War choices".

chaos0xomega wrote:
They're definitely not in IA: Apoc, so it must be IA2 2nd ed, which AFAIK is the newest FW book which I don't presently own.

The Tigershark is on page 123, and the Tigershark AX-1-0 is on page 124. Make sure you have the current version of the book, the one published after the new Apocalypse rules.

To my knowledge (read: google turned up nothing) nothing was marked a LoW in IA2 2nd Ed (though I could be mistaken).

Also wrong. One of the preview pages shows a LoW stamp on the transport variant of the Thunderhawk, and discussion of the book suggests that the other appropriate units got it as well.


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 KonTheory wrote:
Forgeworld should just make an even more badass battlesuit thats bigger than the Rvarna and call it an apoc suit haha
Tau apoc suit... Id buy it

Hell no. Tau shouldn't even have the Riptide according to the fluff, the last thing they need is more stupidity like that.

chaos0xomega wrote:
They're definitely not in IA: Apoc, so it must be IA2 2nd ed, which AFAIK is the newest FW book which I don't presently own.

The Tigershark is on page 123, and the Tigershark AX-1-0 is on page 124. Make sure you have the current version of the book, the one published after the new Apocalypse rules.

So I am going to buy the FW book with the AX10 stats. Is it for sure IA2 2nd vol.? Its the one with the stats on p. 124?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
So I am going to buy the FW book with the AX10 stats. Is it for sure IA2 2nd vol.? Its the one with the stats on p. 124?

No. IA2 2nd edition is a marine book. This is the one you want for the Tau models: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Warhammer-40000/Imperial_Armour_Books/IMPERIAL_ARMOUR_APOCALYPSE.html