voidshields counts as Av12 and gone once you glance.But I am confused when .....
lets use a rhino...
If you shoot 3 laz cannons at a rhino under the shield
1) Would you roll against the shield and all 3 shoots kill it as if it were a separate unit
2) Roll pen against the shield till it is gone then the remaining hits go to the rhino.

Second scenario is
20 boys under 9 shields get hit by a Large/mega blast
1) 10 boys are under the blast , would the shields then get 10 chances to get a glance working its way through the shields or would that only count as 1 hit.

Are the 3 lascans in a single unit? Or are they firing from three separate units?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I'll just answer both questions.

Let's go with a Devestator las unit, 4 lascans. Since all the shooting from a unit happens at the same time, any hits generated by any of the 4 lascans would then roll for armour penetration against the Void Shield. If any glances/pens occur, then the shield goes down. All four lascans have shot and are done, with damage done only to the VS. Then another unit, say a Land Raider, would shoot its lascannons against the building (or the folks on the battlement).

So upgrading your bunker to have a VS means that one whole enemy unit has to waste its shooting to get to the unit inside the bubble/building.

yeah the 3 lascannons are one unit


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So 1 unit can only ever remove 1 shield?

What he means is that no matter how many lascannons you shoot from a single squad they will all only be resolved against the VS, not against the building, you would have to fire from a 2nd unit in order for the building to be hit

So let's say I fire a Broadsides unit at a Rhino behind 3 void Shields. I hit with say the average 12 S7 hits. That's against AV12 an average of 4 HPs so should kill all the void shields with hits to spare. Are we saying I only remove 1 shield? Does it make a difference if the shields are from the same generator or if they are from 3 separate? I'm going to look into this as it could be even more broken than I first thought.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So I've had a closer look:

Going back to the Rhino example. I've 12 hits and 3 projected void shields. So I have to randomise those hits between the 3 Void shields. Cool so far.

We are however told that once all void shields are removed further hits strike the "original target". Which certainly implies the hits can roll over, however doing so causes other problems (you must roll armour pen one at a time with no permission to do so, extra hits have no ability to roll over to other void shields). So we have to take this as further hits from different units.

Therefore I randomise those 12 hits between the 3 shields let's call them Sh1, Sh2 & Sh3.

So Sh1 takes 3 hits, Sh2 7 hits and Sh3 2 hits

I roll to pen each against Sh1 I roll: 5,6,3 dealing a pen and glance the shield is down.
Against Sh2 I roll: 2,4,5,5,5,5,6 dealing a pen and 4 glances the shield is down.
Against Sh3 I roll: 1,3 dealing no damage the shield holds so only 2 Shields are down despite a total of 5 glances and 2 pens from the rolls.

Likewise against a bunker no unit can hurt the bunker until the void shield is down.

Query: I am unfamiliar with the specifics of the void shield, but I would like to know why they would work differently than the Dark Eldar shield upgrade. It provides a 2++ until it fails a save, then is destroyed. Additional wounds pass to the natural armor save of the unit/model.

When shooting it, you roll shots individually until it breaks. So why are you shooting the Void Shield and not the unit? Is it part of the void shield rules? Where can I find said rules?

From Stronghold assault:

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield. If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings’ projected void shields is hit.

If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead...."

Sounds like hits from the same unit can spill onto the protected unit.

Thanks Cthulu. So it operates as I expected.

So my take for the original poster:
Scenario 1: the Rhino is AV 12 until it is glance+ the first time. After that, it is AV normal, and begins taking hull points.

Scenario 2: Very interesting. I would say since Blasts get 1 chance to pen a vehicle, making the Boyz a vehicle reduces the "hits" to 1. I am basing this on the phrase "hit the void shield instead", so I am resolving a blast against an AV12 target.

CthululsSpy if you think that. Where are you getting permission to roll each hit separately? The Shield has an AV the unit behind could well have a toughness. Only wound allocation and damage results have permission to be resolved sequentially.

Further hits must refer to further hits from different units.

 FlingitNow wrote:
CthululsSpy if you think that. Where are you getting permission to roll each hit separately? The Shield has an AV the unit behind could well have a toughness. Only wound allocation and damage results have permission to be resolved sequentially.

Further hits must refer to further hits from different units.

Argh, I misread it. I had thought that since you are trying to hit a target and instead hit a shield, that it would work like wound allocation. But by the wording:

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield

It seems to be more like it does, it fact, take the whole unit to dispel a shield, and another to hurt whatever is inside. I personally think my previous interpretation made more sense, but anyway.

No.

Further hits strike The original target instead, how Can shooting from a second Unit that has not even shot yet, even have an original target.

Buy The book, and read The rules. Its pretty simple, there is no need to discuss it.

Further hits strike The original target instead, how Can shooting from a second Unit that has not even shot yet, even have an original target.

How can shots from the same unit cause further hits? Where are you getting permission to resolve shots from 1 unit sequentially. Where are you getting permission to assign hits on one Void Shield onto another?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Further hits strike The original target instead, how Can shooting from a second Unit that has not even shot yet, even have an original target.

How can shots from the same unit cause further hits? Where are you getting permission to resolve shots from 1 unit sequentially. Where are you getting permission to assign hits on one Void Shield onto another?

they are not generating additional hits.

for simplicity, 4 las canons target the rhino, the rhino is within a void bubble that has 3 shields up.

for argumnts sake the unit hits with all 4 las canons.

the unit has scored 4 hits.

void shield rules state that the shield takes the hit until it is gone where any left over hits go on the orriginal target. keep in mind you can not target the void shield directly, its a re-direct to the shield from your orrignial target.

this means you must resolve your hits seperatly much like a mixed armour target.

in this example you would roll 3 dice first to try to get the shields down,for arguements sake say I roll 3 6's penetrating the 3 shields value, this means that the 3 shields are down and the last hit is resolved agasint the rhino.

lets now backtrack a little, and now my penetration value rolls don't all equate to 12 or over, the last shot is then resolved agasint the shield value as not all the shields are down so the re-direct is in effect.

void shield rules state that the shield takes the hit until it is gone where any left over hits go on the orriginal target.

That's not what it says. It says any hits from a unit on a unit within the void shield has those hits instead randomly hit a void shield.

this means you must resolve your hits seperatly much like a mixed armour target.

Where does it give you permission to do this? No where does it state this and remember the unit inside the bubble could have a toughness.

in this example you would roll 3 dice first to try to get the shields down,for arguements sake say I roll 3 6's penetrating the 3 shields value, this means that the 3 shields are down and the last hit is resolved agasint the rhino.

No again you are told explicitly that if the unit is protected by more than 1 shield you must randomise hits between shields. So you d3 your 4 shots to see which shield they hit. Say you get 2 hits on Shield 1 and 2 hits on Shield 3 but none on Shield 2. You pen with all 4 dice where is your permission to assign those extra pens onto shield 2 and whilst Shield 2 is still standing you certainly can't assign hits to the "original target".

All shooting is simultaneous.

Ergo, all shooting from a unit hits the target at the same time.

In the passage I quoted, every hit against the unit is resolved against the shield.

Ergo, every attack from the firing unit must be resolved against the shield. Meaning that it takes a whole unit to kill a shield.

See: Quantum Shielding for precedence.

I admit it does seem odd, but it's to stop players from killing the shield with a melta, and then burning the occupants with a flamer at the same time.

Lets take this a step further.I now shoot the boys from over 12" with 9 bolters and a lascannon,
1)Do all the hits go to the shield and bounce off or
2) roll the lascannon first kill the shield then the bolters hit the boys?

 azgrim wrote:
Lets take this a step further.I now shoot the boys from over 12" with 9 bolters and a lascannon,
1)Do all the hits go to the shield and bounce off or
2) roll the lascannon first kill the shield then the bolters hit the boys?

All against the shield. All shooting from a unit is simultaneous. Picking and choosing would be a tad unfair.

 FlingitNow wrote:

void shield rules state that the shield takes the hit until it is gone where any left over hits go on the orriginal target.

That's not what it says. It says any hits from a unit on a unit within the void shield has those hits instead randomly hit a void shield.

this means you must resolve your hits seperatly much like a mixed armour target.

Where does it give you permission to do this? No where does it state this and remember the unit inside the bubble could have a toughness.

in this example you would roll 3 dice first to try to get the shields down,for arguements sake say I roll 3 6's penetrating the 3 shields value, this means that the 3 shields are down and the last hit is resolved agasint the rhino.

No again you are told explicitly that if the unit is protected by more than 1 shield you must randomise hits between shields. So you d3 your 4 shots to see which shield they hit. Say you get 2 hits on Shield 1 and 2 hits on Shield 3 but none on Shield 2. You pen with all 4 dice where is your permission to assign those extra pens onto shield 2 and whilst Shield 2 is still standing you certainly can't assign hits to the "original target".

Page 108-109 Warhammer 40000: Stronghold Assault. You Can find your answer there. You dont randomize, projected void shield generated from a single VSG, but if there is multiple VSG, that protects The target.

All hit the Void Shields:

Since firing is done in a unit-by-unit basis, based on the sequence of fire determined by the BRB for the shooting of a unit. The first unit only has permission to hit the shield.

Are these Voidshields any different from the ones in Apocalypse?

SJ

 azgrim wrote:
Lets take this a step further.I now shoot the boys from over 12" with 9 bolters and a lascannon,
1)Do all the hits go to the shield and bounce off or
2) roll the lascannon first kill the shield then the bolters hit the boys?

All the bolter rounds hit the shield do nothing lascannon strips it for the next unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Page 108-109 Warhammer 40000: Stronghold Assault. You Can find your answer there. You dont randomize, projected void shield generated from a single VSG, but if there is multiple VSG, that protects The target.

Firstly it yells you to randomise between all void shield projections not VSG. Secondly there is still no permission to resolve shooting sequentially or indeed to pass hits from one shield to the next (even if from the same generator).

The Scatter Laser from the Eldar codex already demonstrates to hit rolls can be modified by the same model. If a scatter laser hits, all shots by that model are twinlinked for the turn. Because all shooting happens simultaneously, you must declare what is shooting, then roll for your scatter laser, if it hits, everything else gets to reroll misses.

Based on the quoted passage, the target is still the unit, not the void shield. All rolls to wound/pen happen sequentially, most people just speed it up with Fast Dice. The void shield provides a defense until the first glance+ is rolled, at which point, any subsequent hits the unit has made are rolled as wounds/pens against the original target.

You are asserting that because all hits happen simultaneously (with already noted exceptions) all wounds do as well. The BRB, in the shooting phase section, indicates otherwise.

It doesn't say wounds or pens though, it says hits.

Dessorag wrote:
The Scatter Laser from the Eldar codex already demonstrates to hit rolls can be modified by the same model. If a scatter laser hits, all shots by that model are twinlinked for the turn. Because all shooting happens simultaneously, you must declare what is shooting, then roll for your scatter laser, if it hits, everything else gets to reroll misses.

And the Scatter Laser has explicit wording to allow that.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
From Stronghold assault:

"Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield. If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings’ projected void shields is hit.

If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead...."

First part: All shots are rolled to hit a target. X dice are rolled, and Y are greater than 7-BS. The unit now has Y HITS to be resolved against it.

Step 2: Roll to wound. The void shield forces you to roll against AV 12 to wound. You do this step until you successfully glance the shield. At which point, the difficulty to wound changes.

The void shield chances the difficulty to wound, until one is successful.

The key phrase is "target". The unit protected by the void shield is a viable target. All shooting is resolved against that target as if it had a defensive stat of AV12. This is different from shooting at a transport. In that case, the target is the transport, not the unit inside it. This is why shots don't carry forward in that case.

You don't have permission to roll to wound and pen sequentially. Fast dice are for saving throws and vehicle damage table results (which are sequential) also the hits have to be randomised between all Void Shields so what happens if you remove 1 void shield but not another you have no permission to pass those hits to another void shield and with shields still in place you can go to the target unit.

 FlingitNow wrote:
also the hits have to be randomised between all Void Shields so what happens if you remove 1 void shield but not another you have no permission to pass those hits to another void shield and with shields still in place you can go to the target unit.

From Stronghold Assault
"If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings' projected void shields is hit".

Pretty simple:
" Guardsmen squad squad bones gets lit up by a chaos space marine havoc squad with autocannons, the havocs score 12 hits, guardsmen squad bones is within the dome of two void shield generators, they are in luck and Void Shield A stops 8 of the 12 hits, the shots not glancing or penetrating the 3 projected shields, the 4 remaining shots either penetrates or glances the shields, as there is only 3 projected shields from Void generator A, sergeant bones is not so lucky as the final shot punches through and gets him right in the balls"

You have to read the Special rule: Projected Void Shields in context, and not pick the bits, that fits the case you are presenting.
If still confused, i suggest you go get it. Its not that expensive and really a requirement for any serious, or even half serious 40K player.

The consensus has been that the 12 auto cannon shots will hit and pen only 1 shield .

So then the part about further hits hitting the original unit does nothing?

 Happyjew wrote:
So then the part about further hits hitting the original unit does nothing?

At the moment it looks like it just reminds you that further shooting from a different unit will hit the target not the downed shield.

The rules are not very clearly written though.

The void shield isn't a separate unit or target is it? So if you score, say, 6 hits and resolve them against the shield and get 6 pens, 1 of the penetrating hits is enough to collapse the shield.

Do you stop allocating the rest? You can't allocate them to the shield anymore (since it is gone), right?

Wrong, sorry.

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So then the part about further hits hitting the original unit does nothing?

At the moment it looks like it just reminds you that further shooting from a different unit will hit the target not the downed shield.

The rules are not very clearly written though.

Yeah, normally they provide an example for these sort of things :/

 Shandara wrote:
The void shield isn't a separate unit or target is it? So if you score, say, 6 hits and resolve them against the shield and get 6 pens, 1 of the penetrating hits is enough to collapse the shield.

Do you stop allocating the rest? You can't allocate them to the shield anymore (since it is gone), right?

It is indeed a separate target. Also how would you allocate those penetrating hits to say a guardsman? Say those pens came from a S7 weapon are you claiming you could apply those to an AV14 building or tank behind a shield?

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Happyjew wrote:
So then the part about further hits hitting the original unit does nothing?

At the moment it looks like it just reminds you that further shooting from a different unit will hit the target not the downed shield.

The rules are not very clearly written though.

They are pretty clear m8: "if all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead".

look at the last section: Original target instead, i have allready made this clear one time before.
A secondary unit that has not even shot yet, or decided what they want to shoot at cannot have that original target, that the Special rule refers to.
The further hits that the special rule refers to, must come from whatever hits your current unit have scored. There is no other posibility.
The rule talks nothing about further shooting attacks, attacks from different units and so on. And it doesnt need to.


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 FlingitNow wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
The void shield isn't a separate unit or target is it? So if you score, say, 6 hits and resolve them against the shield and get 6 pens, 1 of the penetrating hits is enough to collapse the shield.

Do you stop allocating the rest? You can't allocate them to the shield anymore (since it is gone), right?

It is indeed a separate target. Also how would you allocate those penetrating hits to say a guardsman? Say those pens came from a S7 weapon are you claiming you could apply those to an AV14 building or tank behind a shield?

Penetrating hits doesn nothing else, besides collapsing a projected void shield!
There is a void shield, it comes with a standard 1 projected void shield, that same void shield generator can purchase up to 2 extra projected void shields.

They are pretty clear m8: "if all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead".

look at the last section: Original target instead, i have allready made this clear one time before.
A secondary unit that has not even shot yet, or decided what they want to shoot at cannot have that original target, that the Special rule refers to.
The further hits that the special rule refers to, must come from whatever hits your current unit have scored. There is no other posibility.
The rule talks nothing about further shooting attacks, attacks from different units and so on. And it doesnt need to.

I know you've said this but you haven't given a rules based argument for how that works. For instance you have a guard squad behind 3 void shield projections. You hit with 12 S7 shots. You then HAVE to randomise those shots between the shields. Calling them Sh1, Sh2, Sh3 where you get 3 hits, 7 hits & 2 hits respectively.

In your interpretation what do I do next? Using actual rules please explain.

No because the actual special rule tells you to randomize between void shield generators, not projected void shields.

it says: "If a unit is withing 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings' projected void shields is hit."

Pretty simple, you determine by chance, which Void Shield Generator absorbs the shots, if its the VSG with 3 shields up, you are lucky, if its the VSG with just one projected void shield, you are not. Simple.

You are supposed to roll the dice to penetrate one at a time as per the rulebook, rolling them all together is a convention where the order of which dice wound or penetrate do not matter. Cases in which the order matters include the shadow field, and rolling to penetrate vehicle squadrons.

So what happens if a tactical squad armed with 8 bolters a missile launcher fire at a unit protected by a void shield is that all the to hit rolls can be rolled together, come time to penetrate the void shield, the controlling player allocates the missile first and rolls to bring down the shield. If that is accomplished the bolters hits are allocated against the target unit, if the void shield is still active, the bolter shots are wasted as they cannot bring down the void shield.

ItsPug wrote:
You are supposed to roll the dice to penetrate one at a time as per the rulebook, rolling them all together is a convention where the order of which dice wound or penetrate do not matter. Cases in which the order matters include the shadow field, and rolling to penetrate vehicle squadrons.

So what happens if a tactical squad armed with 8 bolters a missile launcher fire at a unit protected by a void shield is that all the to hit rolls can be rolled together, come time to penetrate the void shield, the controlling player allocates the missile first and rolls to bring down the shield. If that is accomplished the bolters hits are allocated against the target unit, if the void shield is still active, the bolter shots are wasted as they cannot bring down the void shield.

yes exactly

So in my example you have 3 shield generators each with 1 shield. I'm not going to argue about what you need to randomise between at this point.

So tell me how you proceed in my example. Explain what you think the rules tell you to do. I have presented my case with rules. You've highlighted 1 sentence as said hits go over to the unit but haven't explained how.

You did not say that you had 3 shield generators with 1 shield each, you simply said 3 projected void shields. These could come from a single void shield generator.

in your second example
You first roll a d3, pick the VSG you get.
Then your opponent tries to use his 12 s7 hits to penetrate or glance your single void shield, when he succeeds your opponent takes the remaining hits and resolve them against the original target (the unit).

If i quote anymore from the book i might aswell copy paste the entire special rule into this forum, i dont want to do that.
And i think it is against forum rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
FlingitNow, sorry im so steadfast on this, but im just curious, do you have the book or ?

in your second example
You first roll a d3, pick the VSG you get. Then your opponent tries to use his 12 s7 hits to penetrate or glance your single void shield, when he succeeds your opponent takes the remaining hits and resolve them against the original target (the unit).

So much wrong with this. Firstly we are told to randomise each hit. So in my example I told you how the randomisation went. However we'll go with all 12 hitting Sh2.

Then you have the sentence that I don't understand "Then your opponent tries to use his 12 s7 hits to penetrate or glance your single void shield," what do you mean by this? So I get 3 pens and 3 glances with those 12 hits how do those go onto the guardsmen?

Then you claim to put extra hits onto the guardsmen who are still covered by a VSP so can't have those hits assigned to them. "If all projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target". We have neither conditions "all projected void shields have collapse" (2 remain) nor do we have "further hits".

I have the book and, quite honestly thia is silly. Just reslove each hit one at a time until all the Shields are collapsed then roll the rest of your dice. It's not meant to have a million lascannon shots get wasted firing at one shield. Hit 3 times, knock down the shield on the first shot, the remainder go into the unit you originally fired at.

Now the real question, how do marker lights work with the shield?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To avoid reading too far into my post, if there are more than 1 shield continue on to the next shield until the y all have collapsed or you have run out of shots.

Whilst that may make sense, the rules don't really make that clear. All shots from a unit are at the same time.

In Stronghold assault, all shots from the unit that hits the target hits the shield instead. Ergo, according to how it's worded, all shots must hit the shield.

Doesn't Quantum Shield follow the same system? With that, you do not resolve one at a time.

Right... because it's a vehicle and not a 1 hull point shield


Just take the 9 shield formation and make your opponent knock each one down with a different unit. It'll be fun

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Whilst that may make sense, the rules don't really make that clear. All shots from a unit are at the same time.

In Stronghold assault, all shots from the unit that hits the target hits the shield instead. Ergo, according to how it's worded, all shots must hit the shield.

Doesn't Quantum Shield follow the same system? With that, you do not resolve one at a time.

yes you do roll them separately, if one penetrates the shield immediately drops and you revert to the standard AV.

also as you are rolling against an AV you must resolve each separately.

its really not a difficult concept and the basic function of void shields has not changed since Apoc 1.0......the shield is there until it has been breeched, when it is gone, remaining hits go onto the unit to resolve normally.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Whilst that may make sense, the rules don't really make that clear. All shots from a unit are at the same time.

In Stronghold assault, all shots from the unit that hits the target hits the shield instead. Ergo, according to how it's worded, all shots must hit the shield.

Doesn't Quantum Shield follow the same system? With that, you do not resolve one at a time.

Thee special rule tell you that, yes but also tells you that further hits strike The original target instead.
Ergo, all shots must not hit The shield

Just reslove each hit one at a time until all the Shields are collapsed then roll the rest of your dice.

Where's your permission to do this?

Now the real question, how do marker lights work with the shield?

They hit the shield which does nothing as they do no damage and the shield can't be targeted.

Doesn't Quantum Shield follow the same system? With that, you do not resolve one at a time.

No as all shots from one unit are simultaneous you do not know if you have a penetrating hit until all hits have rolled to penetrate. Therefore only later units get to roll against AV11.

fossing wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Whilst that may make sense, the rules don't really make that clear. All shots from a unit are at the same time.

In Stronghold assault, all shots from the unit that hits the target hits the shield instead. Ergo, according to how it's worded, all shots must hit the shield.

Doesn't Quantum Shield follow the same system? With that, you do not resolve one at a time.

Thee special rule tell you that, yes but also tells you that further hits strike The original target instead.
Ergo, all shots must not hit The shield

Further hits can just as easily refer to another unit. "Further" implies next. If all hits are at the same time, then "further" cannot apply to the firing unit.

It would have made things so much easier if they just wrote "resolve each hit against the shield separately until they are removed" :/


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Whilst that may make sense, the rules don't really make that clear. All shots from a unit are at the same time.

In Stronghold assault, all shots from the unit that hits the target hits the shield instead. Ergo, according to how it's worded, all shots must hit the shield.

Doesn't Quantum Shield follow the same system? With that, you do not resolve one at a time.

yes you do roll them separately, if one penetrates the shield immediately drops and you revert to the standard AV.

also as you are rolling against an AV you must resolve each separately.

its really not a difficult concept and the basic function of void shields has not changed since Apoc 1.0......the shield is there until it has been breeched, when it is gone, remaining hits go onto the unit to resolve normally.

Where does it give you permission to do that, exactly? I do not recall such wording nor clarification.

It seems like you should just treat the void shield as a part of the unit, standing out front, with an AV value instead of a Toughness. If you have multiple Void Shields, they are all "standing out front" at exactly the same distance, so you have to randomize to see which you hit. When the Void Shields are all down, the rest of the shots hit the next closest model, etc.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Just reslove each hit one at a time until all the Shields are collapsed then roll the rest of your dice.

Where's your permission to do this?

In the RULE!!! The Special rule called "Projected Void Shields".

The void shield is not the unit shot at, it just provides a special rule to the target unit.

It does a lot of handwaving, but you aren't shooting at the void shield generator so if you have penetrating hits left after collapsing the shield you have to allocate them somewhere...

GeneralCael wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Just reslove each hit one at a time until all the Shields are collapsed then roll the rest of your dice.

Where's your permission to do this?

In the RULE!!! The Special rule called "Projected Void Shields".

Ok then

Projected Void Shields: A Void Shield Generator has a single projected void shield. It can be upgraded to include additional layers of void shielding.

Each projected void shield has a 12" area of effect (measured from any point on the Void Shield Generator building), known as a Void Shield Zone. Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield. If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings’ projected void shields is hit.

Each projected void shield has an Armour Value of 12. A glancing or penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a projected void shield causes it to collapse. If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead. At the end of each of the controlling player’s turns, roll a dice for each projected void shield that has collapsed; each roll of 5+ instantly restores one shield.

Kindly point to where it says that each hit is resolved separately against a shield.

How does this sound for a layman's explanation of how this is supposed to work?

5 man Dev Squad with Lascannons are standing right out front, we'll say 18 inches away from a dastardly unit of Chaos Space Marines. The Choas scum are standing within two overlapping Void Shield Zones created by a nearby Void Shield Generator.

They fire and the 4 Lascannon toting marines hit while the Sargeant with his fearsome Bolt Pistol misses.

So, the first shot is resolved... the marine rolls a 2. This would be enough to wound and kill one of the Traitor Marines, but alas, there are Void Shields in the way. Randomly hitting the first, 9+2=11, which is not enough to take down the shield.

The next 2 shots roll high and are randomly allocated to each Void Shield Zone, taking them down in turn.

The last shot rolls a 5, more than enough to take out one of the followers of Chaos. Are there anymore Void Shield Zones covering them? No. So the Marine dies.

 Kriswall wrote:
How does this sound for a layman's explanation of how this is supposed to work?

5 man Dev Squad with Lascannons are standing right out front, we'll say 18 inches away from a dastardly unit of Chaos Space Marines. The Choas scum are standing within two overlapping Void Shield Zones created by a nearby Void Shield Generator.

They fire and the 4 Lascannon toting marines hit while the Sargeant with his fearsome Bolt Pistol misses.

So, the first shot is resolved... the marine rolls a 2. This would be enough to wound and kill one of the Traitor Marines, but alas, there are Void Shields in the way. Randomly hitting the first, 9+2=11, which is not enough to take down the shield.

The next 2 shots roll high and are randomly allocated to each Void Shield Zone, taking them down in turn.

The last shot rolls a 5, more than enough to take out one of the followers of Chaos. Are there anymore Void Shield Zones covering them? No. So the Marine dies.

Sadly, the rules don't seem to support that. Again, point to where it says each shot is resolved separately.

The problem is that Further can be interpreted in two ways.

1) Further hits from the firing unit

2) Further hits from another unit

Option 1) is at odds with the rule that all shots are made and hit simultaneously.

Option 2) is at odds with practicality, because that means you need to spend at most 3 units to get rid of the shields.

All they had to do was add "resolve each shot against the shield separately. If all shields have been removed, resolve any remaining shots against the unit." They had 1 job...

It seems like you should just treat the void shield as a part of the unit, standing out front, with an AV value instead of a Toughness. If you have multiple Void Shields, they are all "standing out front" at exactly the same distance, so you have to randomize to see which you hit. When the Void Shields are all down, the rest of the shots hit the next closest model, etc.

You've just made up a load of rules. If you treat as part of the unit you go on majority toughness, my previous example T3 you'd roll to wound and then apply those rounds to the void shield which of course is unaffected by wounds so it would be immortal...

In the RULE!!! The Special rule called "Projected Void Shields".

Where please quote permission to resolve shots sequentially I'm not seeing it.

Filter Thread

The void shield is not the unit shot at, it just provides a special rule to the target unit.

It does a lot of handwaving, but you aren't shooting at the void shield generator so if you have penetrating hits left after collapsing the shield you have to allocate them somewhere...

Why do they have to go somewhere? If I glance a Landraider 7 times does the unit inside take 3 hits? Also now do you allocate glancing hits to Guardsmen (or other toughness & wounds models).

Haha this is so absurd.
Cthululsspy, explain to me: How would you play void shields ?

Look at me i take this super heavy tank, i place it under 3 void shield generators with 3 projected void shields each. You now need to have 9 units with sufficient anti armor capability to knock down my void shields. After that you need to have enough anti armor firepower to knock out my super heavy.
I now win all games, this is so awesome! The best protection in The game for 340 points, whats not to like!
Hahahahaha

Sounds wrong to you, yes?

In this instance, you're not shooting at the Landraider. You're shooting at the unit inside. If it takes a couple of shots to take out the Land Raider, so be it. Once it's down, the rest of the hits strike the original target. That's how I read Void Shield Zones to work.

fossing wrote:
Haha this is so absurd.
Cthululsspy, explain to me: How would you play void shields ?

Look at me i take this super heavy tank, i place it under 3 void shield generators with 3 projected void shields each. You now need to have 9 units with sufficient anti armor capability to knock down my void shields. After that you need to have enough anti armor firepower to knock out my super heavy.
I now win all games, this is so awesome! The best protection in The game for 340 points, whats not to like!
Hahahahaha

Sounds wrong to you, yes?

Yep. Don't forget though that this is from the same company who made it possible to get a 2++ rerollable. It's GW; anything is possible.

Besides, I play necrons. My weakest gun can kill your void shields

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
How does this sound for a layman's explanation of how this is supposed to work?

5 man Dev Squad with Lascannons are standing right out front, we'll say 18 inches away from a dastardly unit of Chaos Space Marines. The Choas scum are standing within two overlapping Void Shield Zones created by a nearby Void Shield Generator.

They fire and the 4 Lascannon toting marines hit while the Sargeant with his fearsome Bolt Pistol misses.

So, the first shot is resolved... the marine rolls a 2. This would be enough to wound and kill one of the Traitor Marines, but alas, there are Void Shields in the way. Randomly hitting the first, 9+2=11, which is not enough to take down the shield.

The next 2 shots roll high and are randomly allocated to each Void Shield Zone, taking them down in turn.

The last shot rolls a 5, more than enough to take out one of the followers of Chaos. Are there anymore Void Shield Zones covering them? No. So the Marine dies.

Sadly, the rules don't seem to support that. Again, point to where it says each shot is resolved separately.

The problem is that Further can be interpreted in two ways.

1) Further hits from the firing unit

2) Further hits from another unit

Option 1) is at odds with the rule that all shots are made and hit simultaneously.

Option 2) is at odds with practicality, because that means you need to spend at most 3 units to get rid of the shields.

All they had to do was add "resolve each shot against the shield separately. If all shields have been removed, resolve any remaining shots against the unit." They had 1 job...

It is further hits strike The original target!!!
Not just further hits!

How Can you have an original target with another Unit as you have not fired anything else yet???

 Kriswall wrote:
In this instance, you're not shooting at the Landraider. You're shooting at the unit inside. If it takes a couple of shots to take out the Land Raider, so be it. Once it's down, the rest of the hits strike the original target. That's how I read Void Shield Zones to work.

So how does it work? Say you get 7 S6 Ap5 hits an a guardsman unit out in the open behind a void shield. You roll 6,6,5,4,2,2,2 what goes onto the guardsman and how?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

fossing wrote:
Haha this is so absurd.
Cthululsspy, explain to me: How would you play void shields ?

Look at me i take this super heavy tank, i place it under 3 void shield generators with 3 projected void shields each. You now need to have 9 units with sufficient anti armor capability to knock down my void shields. After that you need to have enough anti armor firepower to knock out my super heavy.
I now win all games, this is so awesome! The best protection in The game for 340 points, whats not to like!
Hahahahaha

Sounds wrong to you, yes?

Yep. Don't forget though that this is from the same company who made it possible to get a 2++ rerollable. It's GW; anything is possible.

Besides, I play necrons. My weakest gun can kill your void shields

So because GW has made mistakes that made something pretty imba possible, you are now allowed to misinterpret every rule, to suit your own ideas of what should be powerfull ? Schoolyard logic ftw lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

 Kriswall wrote:
In this instance, you're not shooting at the Landraider. You're shooting at the unit inside. If it takes a couple of shots to take out the Land Raider, so be it. Once it's down, the rest of the hits strike the original target. That's how I read Void Shield Zones to work.

So how does it work? Say you get 7 S6 Ap5 hits an a guardsman unit out in the open behind a void shield. You roll 6,6,5,4,2,2,2 what goes onto the guardsman and how?

This is why you resolve one hit at a time, because doing otherwise would make it extremely confusing, and would rely on he shooting player saying: " oh these dices here, that penetrated your armor were The first shots, and these hits that are 2's those are The ones that wounds your guardsmen"

Haha this is so absurd.
Cthululsspy, explain to me: How would you play void shields ?

Look at me i take this super heavy tank, i place it under 3 void shield generators with 3 projected void shields each. You now need to have 9 units with sufficient anti armor capability to knock down my void shields. After that you need to have enough anti armor firepower to knock out my super heavy.
I now win all games, this is so awesome! The best protection in The game for 340 points, whats not to like!
Hahahahaha

Sounds wrong to you, yes?

You don't need 9 units necessarily as soon as you're shooting multiple VSG you get to randomise hits between the various shields. This is how they work looking at the rules. They do need more clarification.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

This is why you resolve one hit at a time,

You have no rules permission to do this though. So you've created a rule out of thin air to support your interpretation of "further hits strike the original target".

I know that you dont ned 9 units, you need one unit with the capability to punch through max 3 shields to hit a target shielded by a void shield generator.
Rules are pretty clear to me, it is understandable that other people might interpret the written word differently, just look at The bibel and koran, all kinds of interpretations out there, some are sound, and some are really far out..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Haha this is so absurd.
Cthululsspy, explain to me: How would you play void shields ?

Look at me i take this super heavy tank, i place it under 3 void shield generators with 3 projected void shields each. You now need to have 9 units with sufficient anti armor capability to knock down my void shields. After that you need to have enough anti armor firepower to knock out my super heavy.
I now win all games, this is so awesome! The best protection in The game for 340 points, whats not to like!
Hahahahaha

Sounds wrong to you, yes?

You don't need 9 units necessarily as soon as you're shooting multiple VSG you get to randomise hits between the various shields. This is how they work looking at the rules. They do need more clarification.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

This is why you resolve one hit at a time,

You have no rules permission to do this though. So you've created a rule out of thin air to support your interpretation of "further hits strike the original target".

I have not created this rule out of The air, thank you very much. I play warhammer 40k 6th edition and my basis for understanding new special rules and units i find in The 6th edition rulebook, untill such a time it gets replaced by a 7th edition rulebook.

Edit: damn ipad auto correct in danish

So please quote the rule where you are allowed to resolve hits one at a time. Because I can't find it in my 6th Edition Rulebook nor in the Void Shield Projection rules. Should be straight forward enough as you claim it is there.

Well, I sent an email to that GW FAQ address. Hopefully they'll answer.

It seems like GW is using Void Shields as ablative "hull points" for any unit under them, requiring the attacker to ablate the "shield points" first before damage can be applied to the target. If that is the case, any additional hits after the "shield points" are removed would carry over to the target. However, if each Void Shield is treated as a separate "vehicle" with a single "hull point", then any additional hits are lost as soon as that Shield drops

So, are Void Shields ablative "shield points" that are "added" to the target, or are they individual "structure points" that must be removed separate from the target?

Answering that question will solve the argument.

As a totally different question, can we target the Void Shield Generator as its own unit? Kill the shields, kill the generator, wipe the rest out with D's?

SJ

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
It seems like GW is using Void Shields as ablative "hull points" for any unit under them, requiring the attacker to ablate the "shield points" first before damage can be applied to the target. If that is the case, any additional hits after the "shield points" are removed would carry over to the target. However, if each Void Shield is treated as a separate "vehicle" with a single "hull point", then any additional hits are lost as soon as that Shield drops

So, are Void Shields ablative "shield points" that are "added" to the target, or are they individual "structure points" that must be removed separate from the target?

Answering that question will solve the argument.

As a totally different question, can we target the Void Shield Generator as its own unit? Kill the shields, kill the generator, wipe the rest out with D's?

SJ

The generator itself is described as being an impassible AV13 building with battlements.
Meaning it's statted. If something is statted, you can kill it.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So please quote the rule where you are allowed to resolve hits one at a time. Because I can't find it in my 6th Edition Rulebook nor in the Void Shield Projection rules. Should be straight forward enough as you claim it is there.

Page 36 BRB

fossing wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So please quote the rule where you are allowed to resolve hits one at a time. Because I can't find it in my 6th Edition Rulebook nor in the Void Shield Projection rules. Should be straight forward enough as you claim it is there.

Page 36 BRB

? That's the deep strike rules. I think you're reading the wrong rulebook.

It seems like GW is using Void Shields as ablative "hull points" for any unit under them, requiring the attacker to ablate the "shield points" first before damage can be applied to the target. If that is the case, any additional hits after the "shield points" are removed would carry over to the target. However, if each Void Shield is treated as a separate "vehicle" with a single "hull point", then any additional hits are lost as soon as that Shield drops

If its the former then you can't target infantry without the shields being immortal due to majority toughness rules.

So, are Void Shields ablative "shield points" that are "added" to the target, or are they individual "structure points" that must be removed separate from the target?

Answering that question will solve the argument.

Well they aren't part of the unit. Hits get transferred to them instead of the target unit so they are certainly separate.

As a totally different question, can we target the Void Shield Generator as its own unit? Kill the shields, kill the generator, wipe the rest out with D's?

But the generator will be in the shielded area so unless you can get in there it is moot and if you're in there you can just start killing the actual units. I doubt someone running that would allow you to get in there.

 FlingitNow wrote:

As a totally different question, can we target the Void Shield Generator as its own unit? Kill the shields, kill the generator, wipe the rest out with D's?

But the generator will be in the shielded area so unless you can get in there it is moot and if you're in there you can just start killing the actual units. I doubt someone running that would allow you to get in there.

.

Scorched Earth is always an option.

As noone explicitly mentioned this - fast rolling ONLY applies when the order of rolling has no bearing on things. Here, you have to know with shot "2" whetehr it is hitting a void shield or the chaos marine standing under it.

So you must, repeat, MUST, roll the to-wound / to-AP stage separately when you have these shields involved. To do otherwise breaks your permission to "fast roll"

Shooting from one unit is not ALWAYS simultaneous. Rolling on the damage chart has an ordering required, so does rolling to damage squadron'ed vehicles, etc

? That's the deep strike rules. I think you're reading the wrong rulebook.

Was under the impression the iPad rulebook had the same page numbers as BRB. I could be mistaken, or you could be sitting with the small rulebook.
Its Roll to Wound, i does not give you explicit permission. But flick forward to page 40, section "Fast Dice" there it says:
"Even in units with mixed saves, it is not always necessary to allocate wounds one at a time."
You have to treat the void shield as certain kind of save, awarded to the unit being shot at. We have allready established that the transport vehicle comparison does not translate well into actual solutions to understanding this rule.
I hope that is what we are still trying to do, and not trying to create another skyshield landing pad. That would be extremely counter-productive, as it would just take an exciting new fortification and turn it into a big lump of cheese.





Automatically Appended Next Post:
just ahead of me there nosferatu1001, thnx :-)

Was under the impression the iPad rulebook had the same page numbers as BRB. I could be mistaken, or you could be sitting with the small rulebook.
Its Roll to Wound, i does not give you explicit permission. But flick forward to page 40, section "Fast Dice" there it says:
"Even in units with mixed saves, it is not always necessary to allocate wounds one at a time."

I was using the big book but the page numbers are identical to the small one. Notice how fast dice are talking about save throws because those and wound allocation are sequential. Those are done one at a time, rolls to wound and pen are not done sequentially. So please provide actual evidence to support your one at a time method or accept that you've made those rules up out of thin air.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Shooting from one unit is not ALWAYS simultaneous. Rolling on the damage chart has an ordering required, so does rolling to damage squadron'ed vehicles, etc

You have permission to resolve those things sequentially you are not doing either of those things here so you do not have permission to resolve sequentially.

Use the next nearest rules to the situation: Damaging Squadrons.

This is allocating and resolving each individual hit sequentially.

So your S6 attacks on the guardsman unit has you allocating each hit to the void shield and on the first "6" rolled the remaining hits all roll to wound together(then those wounds are allocated individually).

Wounds and AV hits are sequential.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
Use the next nearest rules to the situation: Damaging Squadrons.

This is allocating and resolving each individual hit sequentially.

So your S6 attacks on the guardsman unit has you allocating each hit to the void shield and on the first "6" rolled the remaining hits all roll to wound together(then those wounds are allocated individually).

Wounds and AV hits are sequential.

Cool just point me to the section in the Void Shield Projection rules that reference vehicle squadron shooting rules and we can use those rules. I'm reading it now and I can't find that reference.

Fossing / Kel - indeed, you are told to "fast dice roll" only when this hsa no effect on the game.

This is a text book example of rolling together causing issues, so you cannot do it.

I dont know why this is so special: void shields have always worked this way.

It is the nearest situation.

You have a special rule that intercepts attacks with an AV.

All AV attacks are handled sequentially on their own, and a working knowledge of the rules should click in ones head that there are specific rules for Multiple targets with an AV. Those rules are the Vehicle Squadron rules.

Or you can point me to where the rules state you should be completely blind to like situations and just pack up and go home the second anything that is not specifically covered in its own section of rules comes up.

You have a rule that throws an AV into the mix of your Shooting Resolution; we have a rule for that: allocate the Hits.

I disagree it is the nearest situation. I think the nearest situation is firing at a single vehicle. Because that is literally what you are doing once the shield intercepts the hits.

Penetration rolls are not done sequentially other than in a specific example where permission is given. You lack that permission here.

We are assuming we have allready rolled to hit against a unit.

We are then told

"Each projected void shield has an Armour Value of 12."

Ok so i have to shoot at something with armor value of 12, now i know what i need to roll to wound (glance or penetrate).

"A Glance or Penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a projected void shield [this is singular] causes it to collapse."

Now we know that a single glance or penetrate will remove the shield, allowing us access to wound our primary target (that is described in the next sentence:

"If all the projected void shields have collapsed [this is plural so as to cover cases of multiple projected void shields from the VSG taking the absorbs], further hits strike the original target instead."

Now all of this is connected to a single event, or shooting attack because it is all in the same section, that is how you write rules, or law for that matter. If further hits should deal with further shooting attacks made by other units, it would have been written differently.
So you see this rule, or part of the rule creates an environment where it is prudent, and practical to resolve each hit separately. It does not say anywhere that you have to, but not doing so will break the game. It is certainly not the first time that scenario has been possible, and will most certainly not be the last time. But ask yourself, what is your objective ? to win a theoretical argument, or to have a practical solution, that you, yourself can use in your friendly games. Or in big tournament games, without everyone acusing you of using cheese, or worse cheating.
I am myself pretty sad, that everytime i take my skyshield landing pad into my army list to try out a couple of new tactics, i get funny looks from my local group, because they have heard that you can exploit that landing pad alot.
I am sorry, i dont use my landing pad to conga line my guardsmen to a 4+ inv save, or anything else, i just think it is a cool model and want to use it.
In this instance i want to have a go at bulding a couple of cool looking void shield generators, and use them in friendly games. If these exploiting attempts persists, there is a danger that the Void Shield Generator will be labeled as broken, and cheese, and cheating and what not. And in the end it will ruin the fun and time i spend on it, and that is something i am not interested in, and i frankly cannot fathom why other players who love this hobby, might be.

I want to work out what the rules actually are for these and why.Therefore I know both what I can use and what I'll be up against.

At the moment I don't see permission to resolve the shooting sequentially. Even if you do I don't see how that interacts with multiple void shields as there is no permission to pass hits between shields.

 FlingitNow wrote:
I disagree it is the nearest situation. I think the nearest situation is firing at a single vehicle. Because that is literally what you are doing once the shield intercepts the hits.

First off, no you are never firing AT the Void Shields; you are firing at t he unit.

Second of all, what if you are firing at a Single Vehicle behind the void Shields? You now have an exact Damaging Squadrons situation in that you have 2 separate AVs.

Penetration rolls are not done sequentially other than in a specific example where permission is given. You lack that permission here.

Where is the permission to apply the Void shield's rules to each hit simultaneously? The Void Shield intercepts each hit individually, crashes when it takes a glancing or a pen, and all subsequent hits strike the unit.

First off, no you are never firing AT the Void Shields; you are firing at t he unit.

Second of all, what if you are firing at a Single Vehicle behind the void Shields? You now have an exact Damaging Squadrons situation in that you have 2 separate AVs.

You never target the shield but once it is hit it is a distinct single hull point unit. Also what if the target is infantry. In squadrons you have 2 AVs in a single unit you do not have that here. You have an AV thing you are hitting and another separate unit.

Where is the permission to apply the Void shield's rules to each hit simultaneously? The Void Shield intercepts each hit individually, crashes when it takes a glancing or a pen, and all subsequent hits strike the unit.

The shooting rules define that all hits are simultaneous. Therefore anything that intercepts those hits must do it simultaneously unless given permission to break that rule.

You still haven't answered how you feel with 3 generators each with a single shield protecting a unit. You randomise and they all hit 1 shield what then?

1st Paragraph on page 13 explains quite clearly in what context the 'all firing is simultaneous' applies.

Exactly all firing regardless of how you choose to roll the dice. Some parts are handled sequentially the rules tell you when to do this. They remain silent on this scenario.

 FlingitNow wrote:


You still haven't answered how you feel with 3 generators each with a single shield protecting a unit. You randomise and they all hit 1 shield what then?

if your going to go down that line then the rest of the shots are resolved agasint the orriginal unit...just like the void shield rule says.....your really makeing a mountain out of a molehill here

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:


You still haven't answered how you feel with 3 generators each with a single shield protecting a unit. You randomise and they all hit 1 shield what then?

if your going to go down that line then the rest of the shots are resolved agasint the orriginal unit...just like the void shield rule says.....your really makeing a mountain out of a molehill here

No that only gives you permission to do that if all shields are down and they most certainly are not.

I'm trying to find out how best to interpret the rules in a consistent way.

you keep dismissing people that are explaining how the shields work in a consistant way, having 1 projector putting out 3 shields is effectivly the same as having 3 seperate generators putting out shields, one way or the other, once the shield has been topled, remaining hits go back on the unit, which, in the case of seperate shield generators, would then be directed that way.

armour pen rolls are to be made seperatly as you need to know what your rolling against and as a shield not being there passes the hits back to the unit you must roll them seperatly until either the shields are all gone or the shield has absorbed all the hits.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So please quote the rule where you are allowed to resolve hits one at a time. Because I can't find it in my 6th Edition Rulebook nor in the Void Shield Projection rules. Should be straight forward enough as you claim it is there.

BRB page 73. "Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon's strength value..."

Bold for emphasis.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So please quote the rule where you are allowed to resolve hits one at a time. Because I can't find it in my 6th Edition Rulebook nor in the Void Shield Projection rules. Should be straight forward enough as you claim it is there.

BRB page 73. "Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon's strength value..."

Bold for emphasis.

waiting for the comeback of a void shield is not a vehicle now......

you keep dismissing people that are explaining how the shields work in a consistant way, having 1 projector putting out 3 shields is effectivly the same as having 3 seperate generators putting out shields, one way or the other, once the shield has been topled, remaining hits go back on the unit, which, in the case of seperate shield generators, would then be directed that way.

armour pen rolls are to be made seperatly as you need to know what your rolling against and as a shield not being there passes the hits back to the unit you must roll them seperatly until either the shields are all gone or the shield has absorbed all the hits.

But they can't go onto the unit (and then redirect back to the shield) until all the shields are down. Which they wouldn't be if you had only destroyed 1 shield. Again you are doing something with no permission just to fit your interpretation.

How I read/would play the multiple shields:
Shield generator with 3 projected fields, fields 1, 2, and 3. Targeting a unit of guardsmen inside with a 4 Lascannon dev squad. Devs fire and hit 4 times. You then go to resolving those hits- you would normally roll to wound against the squad and fast roll against toughness, but the void shield rules say the hits are resolved against the shields instead until they go down. So per page 73 of the BRB, you resolve the first hit by rolling for armor pen vs AV12. Roll a 3, glance, shield 1 goes down per shield rules. Repeat for shields 2 and 3. Then the last hit is resolved, and since there are no shields the last hit is resolved against the guard, where being a lascannon vs a guardsman, he evaporates.

The change if you have say 3 generators projecting 2 shields each on those same guardsmen- you resolve hits one at a time to see if you drop shields, but instead of all being from the same generator, you have shields 1A, 2A, 1B, 2B, 3A, 3B. You choose a shield at random to resolve the first hit- say 2B, and resolve that hit. It goes down, and the next hit is resolved against a shield at random from 1A, 2A, 1B, 3A, and 3B, say this time against 1A. Or if 2B had not dropped, it could have randomly been resolved against shield 2B again.

Fling you are failing to recognize that the Hits are squential; let me Quote the Void shields for you:

Any shooting attack that originates from outside a Void Shield Zone and hits a target within the Void Shield Zone instead hits the projected void shield.

That is the first half about hits; so the shooting attacks hit the unit and then instead hit the Shield.

Then on to what hitting the Void Shield means:

Each projected void shield has an Armour Value of 12. A glancing or penetrating hit (or any hit from a Destroyer weapon) scored against a projected void shield causes it to collapse. If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead.

S a single destroyer hit automatically drops the shields, and any remaining shots("Further hits") would invariably go back to the unit, after all if the Void Shield is down then the Void Shield does not get hit instead, and there are no "further hits" to get allocated back to the original unit.

Fling you are failing to recognize that the Hits are squential; let me Quote the Void shields for you:

Nothing in those rules states to resolve the hits sequentially. It is at best implied by the last sentence. But even that throws up massive problems with resolving against multiple shields.

To further fuel this fire .What happens if there are 2 units under one shield getting shot at by one split firing unit . Lets say two rhinos getting shot at by long fangs.
All the hits would hit the shield
What if there were two shields?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Fling you are failing to recognize that the Hits are squential; let me Quote the Void shields for you:

Nothing in those rules states to resolve the hits sequentially. It is at best implied by the last sentence. But even that throws up massive problems with resolving against multiple shields.

How does sequentially run into problems with multiple shields?

{Quote] If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings’ projected void shields is hit.

would also like to add to this that if your interpretation of how the shields work FlingitNow, then a warhound just became an unstoppable killing machine.

2 void shields and 9 hull points with shields able to come back up each turn? under your logic thats a minimum of 3 units just to try to damage it, all the while its blasting away.

and don't get me started on the reaver or the warlord! the warlord has 6 shields and 12+hull points.........

I haven't looked in detail at the wording for titan void shields. So this may or may not be true for them. But I would expect your description to be about right for a Titan.

to the eye of terror with the wording man, look at what happens on the gaming board!

Resolve hits against the first random shield until it is down.

You then follow the further hits are resolved against the unit, which then triggers the next shield, to be resolved sequentially again.

This is the crux of the issue for me. The further hits have no permission to go to the unit (and then redirect to a different shield) if there are still shields up. Only if they are all down can you go to the unit.

I like your interpretation and it makes sense. But it just doesn't seem to be supported by what they're saying which is why I hesitant to go with it.

Fling - again, you are trying to FAST DICE ROLL when the sequence of rolls has an effect on the game. You dont get to fast roll when the sequence of rolls has an effect.

So no, you do not need "permission to fire sequentially", you need to show how your allowance to FAST DICE ROLL still applies.

Failure to do so is concession you do not have permission to fast dice roll, and the problem you are having resolves itself.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Fling - again, you are trying to FAST DICE ROLL when the sequence of rolls has an effect on the game. You dont get to fast roll when the sequence of rolls has an effect.

So no, you do not need "permission to fire sequentially", you need to show how your allowance to FAST DICE ROLL still applies.

Failure to do so is concession you do not have permission to fast dice roll, and the problem you are having resolves itself.

Who said anything about fast dice rolling? Not me I've not talked about wound allocation or armour saves which are resolved sequentially (and hence fast dice could apply if it did not effect the result). The issue is to hit rolls are not sequential (unless specified otherwise) so intercepting those hits is not sequential it is simultaneous.

You are attempting to roll together, against a single value. That is fast dice rolling. You cannot do this, as the sequence of rolls can have an effect on what you need to roll, so you must roll sequentially.

Your assertion has no basis in rules. Show your permission to roll the dice together, or concede.

So permission to roll one at a time during shooting that isn't just for saves, FnP and vehicle damage table results. The default isn't to just roll one at a time as you suggest.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So permission to roll one at a time during shooting that isn't just for saves, FnP and vehicle damage table results. The default isn't to just roll one at a time as you suggest.

Vehicle Damage table results are sequentially. Otherwise you couldnt strip 3 hullpoints with 2 pens that result in 2 immobilises when a single unit shoots at a vehicle.

Vehicle Damage table results are sequentially. Otherwise you couldnt strip 3 hullpoints with 2 pens that result in 2 immobilises when a single unit shoots at a vehicle

Which I agree with in the very post you quoted? Now do we have any rules that to hit rolls and to wound rolls are sequential?

Because you are told you can only roll dice together when this has no effect on the game.

This has an effect

You are taking permission to fast dice roll, and treating that as the base case. It isnt. The base is you roll dice one at a time.

Cite permission to roll dice together. Page and para. Or concede you are not arguing rules.

So to hit rolls are not simultaneous now? You keep talking about fast dice. Why? It has literally nothing to do with this situation. Show that to hit rolls are not simultaneous and show that to wound rolls are not simultaneous. The shooting rules tell us that they are.

Sigh.

Give up. The allowance to roll dice together has been shown to not be met in this case, meannig you have to roll the dice one at a time. RAW.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Sigh.

Give up. The allowance to roll dice together has been shown to not be met in this case, meannig you have to roll the dice one at a time. RAW.

Page 13 paragraph 1, page 13 column 2 paragraph 2,

Page 16 paragraph 4 "Fast Dice" ONLY applies to armour saves. It can not be used for ANY other dice rolls. So please stop bringing up an irrelevant rule.

Please show allowance to roll all "to hit" together.

Page 13 paragraph 1.

Which pertains only to declaring which targets you fire at and rolling to-hit.

It pertains to shooting being simultaneous. Thus the only parts that are sequential are the parts we are told are sequential.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Essentially the issue is that you have to randomise all the hits together before rolling armour/wound, because it tells you this happens at the step between rolling to hit and rolling to wound/pen. What people want us to do is randomise a hit and conclude it and then go back to random using which you can't because you don't have permission to do so.

"It pertains to shooting being simultaneous. Thus the only parts that are sequential are the parts we are told are sequential."

Leap, not supported by rules.

I roll to-hit, ttogether, as this stage has no interaction with VS rules. I then roll one at a time, because the sequence I roll has an effect on the roll to armour penetrate / to wound / etc.

You are making an assumptive leap. Dont.

So Nos how do you resolve shooting? Declare a target for a unit. Shoot with 1 model til completion then start with the next? Or do you do each step as the entire unit before moving onto the next step?

I've shown shooting defaults to simultaneous you've shown nothing to support it not being simultaneous.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So Nos how do you resolve shooting? Declare a target for a unit. Shoot with 1 model til completion then start with the next?

I have never stated that as a resolution, so how about not putting words in my mouth?

FlingitNow wrote:Or do you do each step as the entire unit before moving onto the next step?

Sheesh, you LOVE your false dichotomy fallacies!

You do each step (to-hit, to-wound, armour saves, etc) as a group of dice, unless doing so would affect the game. We know this to be true, from examples such as firing at squadrons.

Void shields are another such example, and easily resolved using my method. Yours? Not so much.

FlingitNow wrote:I've shown shooting defaults to simultaneous you've shown nothing to support it not being simultaneous.

Except I have done so, you just (yet again) dont like the answer. Doesnt alter the truth of it.

So you do agree you do each step before moving on to the next? You just believe each step can be done in a sequential way. Correct? I'm just asking clarifying questions. So I can understand how your interpretation works. Am I correct so far?

I believe each step HAS to be performed sequentially, if failing to do so could cause issues with resolving.

So was I right in that you have go complete a step before moving onto the next?

 FlingitNow wrote:

Resolve hits against the first random shield until it is down.

You then follow the further hits are resolved against the unit, which then triggers the next shield, to be resolved sequentially again.

This is the crux of the issue for me. The further hits have no permission to go to the unit (and then redirect to a different shield) if there are still shields up. Only if they are all down can you go to the unit.

I like your interpretation and it makes sense. But it just doesn't seem to be supported by what they're saying which is why I hesitant to go with it.

They absolutely have permission when you follow it through.

1: roll all your to hits.
2: all the hits get intercepted by the first shield(randomized if there are more than 1 Shield source).
3: you start sequentially allocating those hits to the first shield and rolling penetration until the shield collapses
4: the further hits are then applied to the unit(exactly as worded)
5: if there are still Shields in play the shield rules kick in again intercepting the hits applied to the unit(exactly as worded; Hits on the unit are intercepted), Go back to step 2

Not only are all permissions there, those are actually requirements

And to your further misunderstanding; All of the to hit rolls are rolled Simultaneously and on the unit; it is the resolution of each scored hit that then happens sequentially as above.

Doesn't the Target's controlling player allocate the successful hits? Why wouldn't the that player dump all of the anti-infantry hits into the first shield, leaving only the remaining anti-tanks to ping the shields? Makes killing shielded infantry functionally the same as being embarked.

SJ

No you handle it the same way as you handle any attack from differently Strengthed and AP weapons; the active player allocates what gets resolved in what order.

Technically it's the shooting player... who is usually (but not always) the active player.

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Further hits strike The original target instead, how Can shooting from a second Unit that has not even shot yet, even have an original target.

How can shots from the same unit cause further hits? Where are you getting permission to resolve shots from 1 unit sequentially. Where are you getting permission to assign hits on one Void Shield onto another?

they are not generating additional hits.

for simplicity, 4 las canons target the rhino, the rhino is within a void bubble that has 3 shields up.

for argumnts sake the unit hits with all 4 las canons.

the unit has scored 4 hits.

void shield rules state that the shield takes the hit until it is gone where any left over hits go on the orriginal target. keep in mind you can not target the void shield directly, its a re-direct to the shield from your orrignial target.

this means you must resolve your hits seperatly much like a mixed armour target.

in this example you would roll 3 dice first to try to get the shields down,for arguements sake say I roll 3 6's penetrating the 3 shields value, this means that the 3 shields are down and the last hit is resolved agasint the rhino.

lets now backtrack a little, and now my penetration value rolls don't all equate to 12 or over, the last shot is then resolved agasint the shield value as not all the shields are down so the re-direct is in effect.

Except that GW has never resolved shooting attacks as sequential in its rules, all shooting has always been simultaneous. So a comparison to mixed armor saves is apples to oranges. Remember that the rules must state that sequential shooting from one unit is allowed otherwise it is not (permissive ruleset).

"If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead...."

Refers to subsequent units firing at the target within the void shield (that has collapsed).

1: roll all your to hits.
2: all the hits get intercepted by the first shield(randomized if there are more than 1 Shield source).
3: you start sequentially allocating those hits to the first shield and rolling penetration until the shield collapses
4: the further hits are then applied to the unit(exactly as worded)
5: if there are still Shields in play the shield rules kick in again intercepting the hits applied to the unit(exactly as worded; Hits on the unit are intercepted), Go back to step 2

The issue I have with this is that step 3 is in fact 2 steps. Certainly if you have multiple shields. So step 3 should read:

3) randomise hits between shields
4a) roll to penetrate shields, now even if we ignore the rules that these are simultaneous and do this sequentially we can't go back to 3 as we have no permission to do so.

We can't go to your 4 if there are still shields up, we also can't go back to 3 to reassign those hits to shields.

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:


Except that GW has never resolved shooting attacks as sequential in its rules, all shooting has always been simultaneous. So a comparison to mixed armor saves is apples to oranges. Remember that the rules must state that sequential shooting from one unit is allowed otherwise it is not (permissive ruleset).

"If all the projected void shields have collapsed, further hits strike the original target instead...."

Refers to subsequent units firing at the target within the void shield (that has collapsed).

exibit a) off the top of my head, network markerlights.

no it isn't.

it is covered as others have pointed out, and I will quote hen I get back to my library, that sequential resolution happens when each hit can effect how the total resolution works. in this instance your resolving agasint an AV12 target before either another AV'X' target or a Toughness value.

and no, it refers to the current 'hit' pool that have yet to be resolved.....this thread is smacking me of people who have not had much experiance with apocolypse and Void shields. they really are much simpilar things than they are being made out to be and are not as potent as they are being insinuated to be either.

the unit is the target, not the shield, the shield deflects incomming shots until it has collapsed, once it is collapsed the shots go back onto the unit again, if there are more shields then the next shield takes it, repeat until all shots are resolved, it really is that simple.

exibit a) off the top of my head, network markerlights.

no it isn't.

it is covered as others have pointed out, and I will quote hen I get back to my library, that sequential resolution happens when each hit can effect how the total resolution works.

No sequential resolution happens when we are told it happens. Like Networked Marker Lights your own example proves that you need express permission to resolve sequentially. See also laser lock, firing at vehicle squadrons etc notice how they tell you as an exception that you have to roll sequentially.

 Kommissar Kel wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

Resolve hits against the first random shield until it is down.

You then follow the further hits are resolved against the unit, which then triggers the next shield, to be resolved sequentially again.

This is the crux of the issue for me. The further hits have no permission to go to the unit (and then redirect to a different shield) if there are still shields up. Only if they are all down can you go to the unit.

I like your interpretation and it makes sense. But it just doesn't seem to be supported by what they're saying which is why I hesitant to go with it.

They absolutely have permission when you follow it through.

1: roll all your to hits.
2: all the hits get intercepted by the first shield(randomized if there are more than 1 Shield source).
3: you start sequentially allocating those hits to the first shield and rolling penetration until the shield collapses
4: the further hits are then applied to the unit(exactly as worded)
5: if there are still Shields in play the shield rules kick in again intercepting the hits applied to the unit(exactly as worded; Hits on the unit are intercepted), Go back to step 2

Not only are all permissions there, those are actually requirements

And to your further misunderstanding; All of the to hit rolls are rolled Simultaneously and on the unit; it is the resolution of each scored hit that then happens sequentially as above.

You are adding in actions.

1. Roll to hit -----------------> resolve hits (wound-armor pen)
2. Allocate wounds -------> resolve saves
3. Determine results -----> remove models

Working in the Rhino VS (3) question....

1. Roll to hit (4 Lascannons are fired and all hit) ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> VS is struck and the results are 2 glance and 2 penetrates
2. Allocate wounds (no wounds) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------> only the VS was hit so only VS saves can be taken if allowed
3. Determine results (the VS is affected by the lascannons 4 times, 3 of which are required to drop all the shields, the 4th is lost) --------> all 3 VS are dropped until possibly the end of the controling players next turn.

No, Each time the unit is applied hits(from each volly of to-hit rolls that hit), you then have those hits allocated to the shield.

In the event of multiple shield sources you randomize the source that all those hits get intercepted by.

Example 1: I have a 9 man Plasma Cannon Dev squad(4 cannons) shooting at a unit within the AOE of 2 Void Shield Generators, each with 2 Shields. The Plasma Cannons score
10 hits, the Bolters in the squad score 3. The Hits are all then intercepted by a random Shield(lets say the from the generator on the Left), you then start rolling pens 1 at a time scoring a 2, then a 3, then a 6; shield is down. The further hits go to the unit, which then gets intercepted by a void shield again per the rules. It does not matter if this set of hits go to the one on the left or the one on the right; it still gets intercepted by a shield, Lets say it goes to the generator on the right this time. You then begin rolling penetration again getting a 1 then a 5. That shield is down and you have to randomly determine which generator takes the hits for its final shield(remember both had 2 shields, and each have lost 1; and you have had the further hits applied to the unit which got intercepted by the generators again)
With your last 4 Plasma cannon hits you roll a 2, a 1, a 4, then a 6; the last shield from that randomly determined generator is down. Your Bolter hits are further allocated to the unit, then back to the last remaining shield and wasted(0 chance to collapse the shield). If another unit fires at the Unit within the generator's fields the hits go to the last remaining Void Shield and if it collapses then the remaining hits go to the unit.

Cuthbert:

A) you are missing huge amounts of steps.

And 2) you clearly do not know any of how Voidshields work because, that is not even what Fling was saying, it is just. so. wrong.

The Hits are all then intercepted by a random Shield(lets say the from the generator on the Left), you then start rolling pens 1 at a time scoring a 2, then a 3, then a 6; shield is down. The further hits go to the unit, which then gets intercepted by a void shield again per the rules.

The underlined is not supported by the rules only if all shields are down can you put those hits on the unit. They aren't so you can't. Those hits are therefore wasted.

You are correct, let me revise that:

The Hits are all then intercepted by a random Shield(lets say the from the generator on the Left), you then start rolling pens 1 at a time scoring a 2, then a 3, then a 6; shield is down. You continue allocating hits until all the Fields on this generator are down, the Further hits then go to the unit and are then intercepted by the other generator.

The reason it all stays on the same generator is that you only randomly determine Generators when the hits are intercepted, and all intercepted hits go to the same generator.

Once the First Generator has lost all shields then thefurther hits go back to the unit, and are then intercepted by the remaining Generator.

the Further hits then go to the unit

Which again they can't as pointed out they can't do this until all shields are down which they still won't be.

 FlingitNow wrote:

the Further hits then go to the unit

Which again they can't as pointed out they can't do this until all shields are down which they still won't be.

That rule is from the single source, it does not discuss the Multiple Generators.

It really seems like you are trying to make something that works just fine "Broken"; Which is surprising because we have an actually well-written rule from GW.

Question: You have taken down all the shields from 1 Generator: have all those shields Collapsed?
Answer: Yes, so the hits go to the unit to then be intercepted by the other Buildings' Shields

Where's that from?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
Where's that from?

Where is what from?

"Question: You have taken down all the shields from 1 Generator: have all those shields Collapsed?
Answer: Yes, so the hits go to the unit to then be intercepted by the other Buildings' Shields"

Is that from a FAQ?

No, it was an illustration.

We use it often here in YMDC

Pose a question and then answer that question.

That rule is from the single source, it does not discuss the Multiple Generators.

It really seems like you are trying to make something that works just fine "Broken"; Which is surprising because we have an actually well-written rule from GW.

The issue is I just don't see the justification in what you're saying. We have to invent a sequential shooting resolution for each hit, then have to break it to reassign hits and in the process break the VSP rule about huts going onto units whilst void shields are still up.

 FlingitNow wrote:

That rule is from the single source, it does not discuss the Multiple Generators.

It really seems like you are trying to make something that works just fine "Broken"; Which is surprising because we have an actually well-written rule from GW.

The issue is I just don't see the justification in what you're saying. We have to invent a sequential shooting resolution for each hit, then have to break it to reassign hits and in the process break the VSP rule about huts going onto units whilst void shields are still up.

We don't have to invent sequential resolution, we already have that.

The Void shield rules tell you in no uncertain terms that you reassign the hits, sometime multiple times.

An no you do not break the rule about hits going back to the units while sheilds are still up because in that case the shields from the protecting building have all been collapsed.

 FlingitNow wrote:

exibit a) off the top of my head, network markerlights.

no it isn't.

it is covered as others have pointed out, and I will quote hen I get back to my library, that sequential resolution happens when each hit can effect how the total resolution works.

No sequential resolution happens when we are told it happens. Like Networked Marker Lights your own example proves that you need express permission to resolve sequentially. See also laser lock, firing at vehicle squadrons etc notice how they tell you as an exception that you have to roll sequentially.

Networked marker lights have permission to fire first because normal marker lights specify the opposite.

ItsPug wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

exibit a) off the top of my head, network markerlights.

no it isn't.

it is covered as others have pointed out, and I will quote hen I get back to my library, that sequential resolution happens when each hit can effect how the total resolution works.

No sequential resolution happens when we are told it happens. Like Networked Marker Lights your own example proves that you need express permission to resolve sequentially. See also laser lock, firing at vehicle squadrons etc notice how they tell you as an exception that you have to roll sequentially.

Networked marker lights have permission to fire first because normal marker lights specify the opposite.

Those are all also rolling To-Hit Sequentially, which is not at all what is happening here.

As has been explained in this thread Pug.

ItsPug wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:

exibit a) off the top of my head, network markerlights.

no it isn't.

it is covered as others have pointed out, and I will quote hen I get back to my library, that sequential resolution happens when each hit can effect how the total resolution works.

No sequential resolution happens when we are told it happens. Like Networked Marker Lights your own example proves that you need express permission to resolve sequentially. See also laser lock, firing at vehicle squadrons etc notice how they tell you as an exception that you have to roll sequentially.

Networked marker lights have permission to fire first because normal marker lights specify the opposite.

No networks roll sequentially because they specify they do. Do the rules here do that?

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So please quote the rule where you are allowed to resolve hits one at a time. Because I can't find it in my 6th Edition Rulebook nor in the Void Shield Projection rules. Should be straight forward enough as you claim it is there.

BRB page 73. "Once a hit has been scored on a vehicle, roll a D6 and add the weapon's strength value..."

Bold for emphasis.

waiting for the comeback of a void shield is not a vehicle now......

First off, the quote is not the rule that governs how the shooting phase is conducted. It is intended to support a different aspect of how to conduct armor penetration, they are not mutually inclusive. So keep searching for your Easter Egg.

One of the things I will need to look at when I get back to the Library is this: Vehicle Squadrons.

I have a vague, slightly dull, reconciliation of there being a rule within informing us to resolve each shot individually in situations where the 'hits' can be spread across multiple vehicles. This likely stemmed from the fact vehicles can have different Armour Value depending simply on which way they are facing. It would be impossible in such a situation to roll all 'to hit' rolls any other way, as it would lead to a situation where a successful Glance or Penetration Can be scored against one vehicle and then applied to a vehicle with a higher Armour Value.

Can not say how well they would be applied to this situation, I really need to look at the rules for this Voidshield thing, but just something to ponder on....

I would also like to comment on the whole 'To Hit is a single roll ' claim: Right at the start of the rule section it informs us what a 'roll' is, though I like the word 'test' better, by defining them as XD6. This means any time where you see this terminology you are being informed to carry out a single roll using X number of six sided dice. This is important because some rules do different things depending on how many dice are used, such as Fleet granting permission to chose how many dice are re-rolled as multiple dice are used. If it wasn't for this definition of a single 'roll' it would be possible to argue that a special rule granting permission to modify a 'roll' result could be applied to all rolls made during that moment. For example: A single twin-linked weapon in a unit would grant permission to re-roll the entire units failed 'To Hit' rolls.

Even though Face Dice grants you the ability to roll multiple To Hit 'rolls' simultaneously this does not stop them from being individual 'rolls.'

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No, Each time the unit is applied hits(from each volly of to-hit rolls that hit), you then have those hits allocated to the shield.

In the event of multiple shield sources you randomize the source that all those hits get intercepted by.

Example 1: I have a 9 man Plasma Cannon Dev squad(4 cannons) shooting at a unit within the AOE of 2 Void Shield Generators, each with 2 Shields. The Plasma Cannons score
10 hits, the Bolters in the squad score 3. The Hits are all then intercepted by a random Shield(lets say the from the generator on the Left), you then start rolling pens 1 at a time scoring a 2, then a 3, then a 6; shield is down. The further hits go to the unit, which then gets intercepted by a void shield again per the rules. It does not matter if this set of hits go to the one on the left or the one on the right; it still gets intercepted by a shield, Lets say it goes to the generator on the right this time. You then begin rolling penetration again getting a 1 then a 5. That shield is down and you have to randomly determine which generator takes the hits for its final shield(remember both had 2 shields, and each have lost 1; and you have had the further hits applied to the unit which got intercepted by the generators again)
With your last 4 Plasma cannon hits you roll a 2, a 1, a 4, then a 6; the last shield from that randomly determined generator is down. Your Bolter hits are further allocated to the unit, then back to the last remaining shield and wasted(0 chance to collapse the shield). If another unit fires at the Unit within the generator's fields the hits go to the last remaining Void Shield and if it collapses then the remaining hits go to the unit.

Cuthbert:

A) you are missing huge amounts of steps.

And 2) you clearly do not know any of how Voidshields work because, that is not even what Fling was saying, it is just. so. wrong.

Kel, I could say the same about yourself. You debate skills are flawed at best.

The situation that you are adding to the discussion is vastly different from the simple one consisting of one generator and 3 VS. Being as you brought it up let's see how it would work.

The Dev squad fires and all successful to hits are tallied for each weapon. Those hits are then resolved agaisnt the randomly determined VS (left). The VS takes any saves it is entitled to. The VS is dropped when a glance or penetrating hit on armor 12 is scored, then that is it. No other VS are affected by the Dev squad.

A) Please detail all of the huge amounts of steps that I am missing. If you are going to claim something then back it up with something other than your gut-feelings.
2) Clearly your amassed knowledge of 6 days overwhelms my 22 years of playing GW strategy games and in fact i read on the entry when it was released as well. The problem is that you "think" that you know how you "want" the fortification to be played but obviously do not have a full grasp on how it should be played seeing as how you still do not understand that all shooting happens simultaneously and not sequentially. It has never been a sequential process and likely will never be in the future.

This does not mean that VS will not FAQed to be dropped in a sequential manner, but it will require an FAQ.

JinxDragon wrote:
One of the things I will need to look at when I get back to the Library is this: Vehicle Squadrons.

I have a vague, slightly dull, reconciliation of there being a rule within informing us to resolve each shot individually in situations where the 'hits' can be spread across multiple vehicles. This likely stemmed from the fact vehicles can have different Armour Value depending simply on which way they are facing. It would be impossible in such a situation to roll all 'to hit' rolls any other way, as it would lead to a situation where a successful Glance or Penetration Can be scored against one vehicle and then applied to a vehicle with a higher Armour Value.

Can not say how well they would be applied to this situation, I really need to look at the rules for this Voidshield thing, but just something to ponder on....

I would also like to comment on the whole 'To Hit is a single roll ' claim: Right at the start of the rule section it informs us what a 'roll' is, though I like the word 'test' better, by defining them as XD6. This means any time where you see this terminology you are being informed to carry out a single roll using X number of six sided dice. This is important because some rules do different things depending on how many dice are used, such as Fleet granting permission to chose how many dice are re-rolled as multiple dice are used. If it wasn't for this definition of a single 'roll' it would be possible to argue that a special rule granting permission to modify a 'roll' result could be applied to all rolls made during that moment. For example: A single twin-linked weapon in a unit would grant permission to re-roll the entire units failed 'To Hit' rolls.

Even though Face Dice grants you the ability to roll multiple To Hit 'rolls' simultaneously this does not stop them from being individual 'rolls.'

Jinx I'm not saying to hit rolls are a single roll at all I'm saying that they happen simultaneously as we have no permission to roll them sequentially.

The vehicle squadron rules would work here with some tweeks and be a great HYWPI bit they are not referenced so are not applicable. What I'm trying to work out is what they meant for us to do.

I still believe the core of the problem is not a issue with the simultaneous timing but sits with the general lack of permission to 'allocate hits' being combined with unclear rules that re-allocate hits to multiple other units.

A simple look at the vehicle squadron rules imply that by making the exception for squadrons to resolve AP rolls sequentially you would not normally do so without permission. The void shield rules have no such permission written in them. Also if after hits were generated shooting was sequential by default you wouldn't need the majority toughness rule at all.

I also don't see how the Fast Dice section has anything to do with void shields, all that does is gove you permission to roll multiple dice simultaneously in the mixed save wound allocation scenario.

The "futher hits" clause is ultimately useless due to how 6th ed shooting works, as by the time void shields collapse there are no more hits for that shooting attack. It's not surprising considering how much thought GW puts into these things before they copy and paste things.

HIWPI, if the RAW version proves too resilient I'd certainly look to house ruling it to work like squadrons.

The curious thought pattern I have, and I do agree that this wouldn't be a very strong argument to make, is the fact that buildings are treated as if they are vehicles. Honestly I only just got my hands on a copy of the book this thing is in and will need to takes a good look over the rules before I can say anything. My attention is also on other parts of the updated rules, such as the fact they put ground rules on how to determine what side a building is on, which gives me some hope that fortifications might become a little more usable in the future. Back on topic after a quick review of the rules and have found something that could make it possible to argue that Squadron rules are indeed in effect.

Most force organization charts limit you to a single fortification per army, making it difficult to take two in games of 1999 or below, so while it is possible to argue otherwise this rule is more likely to be related to the new concept they brought into play. 'Networks' of fortifications grant you the ability to take multiple buildings onto the battlefield, and one such network is specifically designed for void generators. This brings us to something very interesting, these 'network' entries have a Composition section which informs us how many of each building we are allowed to have. The fact you are purchasing this as a single slot, using a single entry in a book, with a Composition informing us that the size of the network is X number of 'pseudo-models' makes it very possible to state this is a squadron of buildings. That is when you take into account that the Building rules inform us to treat them like vehicles and this is the exact same way as you treat vehicles purchased under a single entry in a Codex, Supplement or otherwise.

This creates problems though as the Squadron rules demand the Squad fire at the same target and you do have rules do deploy the Squad spread out or touching as you desire. I know this is not an issue with the shields, of course, but it could come into play with some of the other 'networks' in this book unless some very delicate tip-toeing around rules takes place. I have a few ideas I will need to research, such as the possibility that the automatic fire rules grant you the ability to fire at multiple units because each building is required to target a different unit, but these sort of fun pondering are where 'gray area' rules lead us. It might be possible to get every single other element of the Squad section out of the picture except for the ability to re-allocate the hits. Also, you could evoke this rule on more then just the shields as well and demand the extra hits against someones Imperial Bastion be transferred onto the other one in the same network on the complete other side of the map.

Also:
Curious if someone can find rules stating that buildings have suffered an 'immobilized' result, and not just a line stating they can not move, because this will undo the Squad argument nicely.

Interesting little update:
There are Attacker/Defender Force Organization Charts which grant multiple fortifications so the problem can re-occur more often then I originally stated but it is an interesting lot of missions.

JinxDragon wrote:
I still believe the core of the problem is not a issue with the simultaneous timing but sits with the general lack of permission to 'allocate hits' being combined with unclear rules that re-allocate hits to multiple other units.

You have permission from the VS rules - any time there is a VS on a unit, the VS intercepts those hits.

It really is an incredibly simple, working within the rules, rule.

You roll the AP roll when you know the VS has been hit. You know it has been hit if there are any left when you are working out how to damage the unit. Done.

Also you'll rarely be shooting at the building it will often be an infantry squad behind the Void Shields. The VSP and the target unit are never counted as 1 unit. I'm just not sure how these rules are intended to work.

I mean each shield is a different projection. However if you have different generators covering the same area you have to randomise between projections not generators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A simple look at the vehicle squadron rules imply that by making the exception for squadrons to resolve AP rolls sequentially you would not normally do so without permission. The void shield rules have no such permission written in them. Also if after hits were generated shooting was sequential by default you wouldn't need the majority toughness rule at all.

Yeah the sequential shooting people have had this pointed out to them but they ignore the rules and claim you are using fast dice...

 FlingitNow wrote:
However if you have different generators covering the same area you have to randomise between projections not generators.

Is this the crux of your difficulty?

Had I known that we could have ended this debate pages ago.

Stronghold Assault PVS, on Multiple buildings: "If a unit is within 12" of more than one Void Shield Generator, and so within more than one Void Shield Zone when it is hit, randomly determine which of the buildings’ projected void shields is hit. "

See the Apostrophe in Buildings'; that is Plural-possessive, you are only resolving the hits on the 1 randomized building's(Singular-Possessive) Void Shields.

So you take out all of the 1 building's shields, further hits return to the unit, the unit is now hit and within range of a building with active shields so the remaining building intercepts thoise hits until it is without shields(any remaining hits at this point return to the unit).


And just to restate(Again) Rolling the to-hits on the unit is done simultaneously, resolving those hits is done sequentially, just like with every other unit in the game.

 Inquisitor Lord Cuthbert wrote:

 Kommissar Kel wrote:
No, Each time the unit is applied hits(from each volly of to-hit rolls that hit), you then have those hits allocated to the shield.

In the event of multiple shield sources you randomize the source that all those hits get intercepted by.

Example 1: I have a 9 man Plasma Cannon Dev squad(4 cannons) shooting at a unit within the AOE of 2 Void Shield Generators, each with 2 Shields. The Plasma Cannons score
10 hits, the Bolters in the squad score 3. The Hits are all then intercepted by a random Shield(lets say the from the generator on the Left), you then start rolling pens 1 at a time scoring a 2, then a 3, then a 6; shield is down. The further hits go to the unit, which then gets intercepted by a void shield again per the rules. It does not matter if this set of hits go to the one on the left or the one on the right; it still gets intercepted by a shield, Lets say it goes to the generator on the right this time. You then begin rolling penetration again getting a 1 then a 5. That shield is down and you have to randomly determine which generator takes the hits for its final shield(remember both had 2 shields, and each have lost 1; and you have had the further hits applied to the unit which got intercepted by the generators again)
With your last 4 Plasma cannon hits you roll a 2, a 1, a 4, then a 6; the last shield from that randomly determined generator is down. Your Bolter hits are further allocated to the unit, then back to the last remaining shield and wasted(0 chance to collapse the shield). If another unit fires at the Unit within the generator's fields the hits go to the last remaining Void Shield and if it collapses then the remaining hits go to the unit.

Cuthbert:

A) you are missing huge amounts of steps.

And 2) you clearly do not know any of how Voidshields work because, that is not even what Fling was saying, it is just. so. wrong.

Kel, I could say the same about yourself. You debate skills are flawed at best.

The situation that you are adding to the discussion is vastly different from the simple one consisting of one generator and 3 VS. Being as you brought it up let's see how it would work.

The Dev squad fires and all successful to hits are tallied for each weapon. Those hits are then resolved agaisnt the randomly determined VS (left). The VS takes any saves it is entitled to. The VS is dropped when a glance or penetrating hit on armor 12 is scored, then that is it. No other VS are affected by the Dev squad.

A) Please detail all of the huge amounts of steps that I am missing. If you are going to claim something then back it up with something other than your gut-feelings.
2) Clearly your amassed knowledge of 6 days overwhelms my 22 years of playing GW strategy games and in fact i read on the entry when it was released as well. The problem is that you "think" that you know how you "want" the fortification to be played but obviously do not have a full grasp on how it should be played seeing as how you still do not understand that all shooting happens simultaneously and not sequentially. It has never been a sequential process and likely will never be in the future.

This does not mean that VS will not FAQed to be dropped in a sequential manner, but it will require an FAQ.

First, it was Fling it Now who brought up the multiple buildings, and was a large part of where he was having difficulty with the rules.

Second, All Wound resoluttion, and Penetration is absolutely 100% sequential; when you are resolving wounds, taking saves, and removing casualties your loss of a given model can effect the rest of the models are the remainder of the wounds to resolve. For rolls To-Wound we roll all the dice under the fast dice rolling because the T value is going to be equal for all models in the unit.
For Armour Penetration There are 2 scenarios, Single Vehicle and Squadrons, We generally use Fast Dice for a Single vehicle because whatever happens with all the dice there is nowhere else for the damage to go, it does not matter(there is also no rule telling us the hit resolution is Simultaneous, Any Claim that it must be is frankly making rules up). For Squadrons we allocate the hits and fully resolve each and every hit individually.

Now on to A): You have the most basic steps for regular shooting(albeit wrong), Resolution of a unit with the void shield is not regular shooting and requires the extra step of the void Shield intercepting the hits and if all the shields collapse, the further hits returning to the unit to be resolved on their own. In the event of 2 buildings(which again what was actually being discussed had you bothered to read the thread) You have the added step of randomizing which building is protecting the unit, and the return to the other building.

But for the Basic Steps, you seem to think that a roll to Wound or Penetrate is resolving a hit, you are incorrect(I direct you to the damaging vehicles section of the BRB to prove that); You have resolved a hit when you have gone through all the steps of penetrate/wound, save, apply damage/wound, remove casualty if appropriate; but I digress. The Steps in hitting/damaging on their own are as follows:
1)declare target/check LOS
2)Check Range
3)Roll to hit
4)roll to wound/penetrate
5)Roll Saves
6)Apply any special rules
7)Apply any Wounds/Hull Points
7a) if penetrating hit, roll for damage result
7b)apply damage result
8)remove any casualty applicable
Steps 1-3 are simultaneous. Steps 4-8 are sequential

And 2) 6 Days huh? Why don't you have a look at my Joined date for dakka, I have been around for a lot longer than 6 Days, and this isn't even my First profile on Dakka I lost the access to my old one years back. I have also been Playing 40K since the very beginning of 3rd edition, have been an extremely active member of YMDC, and by trade a Legal Assistant. But hey your 22Years of GW Strategy game experience(6 years more than mine) must make you much more of an expert on a rule that has been out for 6 days then the guy who has been pouring over the rule pretty much nonstop for the last 3 days discussing every way that it could be read in a debate. And you, yourself have already shown to not have a working knowledge of the Basic rules; let alone this new special rule.

Maybe next time you should think before you type.

Steps 1-3 are simultaneous. Steps 4-8 are sequential

Citation. The rules are 1-4 are simultaneous only after 4 do they become sequential (with obvious exceptions), hence the majority toughness rules. Randomising who you hit is before 4 (debatably part of 3) and has no express permission to be sequential so it isn't.

Multiple different Saves & Look out Sir, vehicle squadrons and Entropic Strike. But I have already addressed that we go ahead and do all of Step 4 in one go because 85% of the time it does not matter.

Armour Penetration is 100% sequential in every situation. But again, unless it is a squadron or now within a void shield, it does not matter if you roll all of your penetration rolls in one go since any over the destruction of the vehicle will be lost and never matter to begin with.

Citation is need for step 4 to be simultaneous, the rules simply do not support it.

Nosferatu1001,

Damn thing ate my post so let me just rewrite it quickly and I also ask that you don't get me wrong either. I think the intention of these rules are pretty straight forward and it is only rule lawyer for the sake of debate that keeps me curious in this particular fortification, because they often screw up fortification rules. It is obvious they intend for this building to force a volley of shots to over-come Armour Value 12 prior to wounding the unit inside, with all hits generated in that volley to be resolved against either the shields or the unit. The the fascination I have with this game is the possibility of the written rules creating problems with intent, it is a twisted little game that Game Workshop provides to us in and of itself, and I do believe the people stating the rule is broken has some grounds here. The intent is very much clear, and anyone trying to argue otherwise on the tabletop is 'that ******* guy,' but it's value as a debatable rule is not so easily denied.

All thanks to the use of 'further' instead of the word 'remaining' within the sentence granting permission to re-allocate back to the original target.

While I also have just as much distaste for 'definition' arguments as I do for 'reminder' arguments, both concepts are at the very core to that side of the debate. By using the word 'further' it is possible to argue that this particular sentence is nothing more then a general 'reminder' informing us that once the projected shields are down you stop resolving hits against them until they are back up again. That very sentence would of therefore been designed simply to preventing one from evoking this rule to move shots to a 'dead' generator where they would just vanish. This is because the general use of the word further, use that has seen itself in Game Workshop rules in the past I am sure, is to address things that happen after a specific point on a time line. As the point where To-Hit rolls are generated is prior to when they are resolved against the shield, therefore 'further hits' can only mean To Hit's generated after this point.

They also have some grounds against the idea of shifting Hits between multiple-Void Projections,* thanks to the inclusion of the word 'all' within that sentence that I believe was meant to grant us permission to "re-allocate" the hits back to the original target. Seeing we can only evoke this rule to return to resolving the shots against the original target if all the shields are down, and in order to randomize to another projection we would need to prove the shots are to be resolved against said unit, it does create a catch 22 situation. Permission to resolve the shots against the original target simply does not exist in this specific situation, even if we could prove that 'further hits' was meant to refer to 'remaining hits.' At best we can argue that the projections are some sort of 'squad' in order to bounce shots between them till all shields are gone, but the more and more I look at that the less likely. In fact, I have come to the conclusions that the projections do not exist at all and that creates some interesting questions given the point of interest I have marked below.

*Do take note people of this thread; you do not resolve the shot against the generator but against the projected shield themselves... this could make a very interesting counter argument in and of itself.

Multiple different Saves & Look out Sir, vehicle squadrons and Entropic Strike. But I have already addressed that we go ahead and do all of Step 4 in one go because 85% of the time it does not matter.

Saves and LoS are not step 4, they are step 5 at which point I agree we are sequential because the rules tell us we are. Entropic strike does not mean armour pen are sequential it means entropic strike is a step 3a that happens between step 3 and step 4 much like the rule here. Vehicle squadrons makes step 4 sequential as an exception which just further proves that step 4 is not normally sequential. So can you please provide some actual rules for this sequential step 4 or do you concede?

Armour Penetration is 100% sequential in every situation.

Citation required.

Citation is need for step 4 to be simultaneous, the rules simply do not support it.

Page 13 paragraph 1.

So the counter argument I have been thinking on:
The void shield projections are what we resolve the hits against and these do not technically exist at all. The only time we even look at the possibility of their existences is in this very precise situation, where shooting is being resolved against a target that just happens to be in the protected 'zone.' However, even in these situations, we are not required to place a physical representation of the shield on the table top and we do nothing to actually interact with something known as a 'projection.' For example: all measurements are taken from the 'Generator' as it is clearly impossible to point to the projection itself for these details. The lack of any physical representation means this 'projection' does not meet the requirements to be a model, or a unit, or anything else that is a requirement for many of the rules within the Rule Book to function.

So why are we stating that the 'To Hits' are reallocated in this situation?

The rule does tell us to resolve the shots against the projection but people are concluding that this means the shots are re-allocated to the generator to do so. The simple fact is no permission exists to resolve the shots against the generator as everything takes great pains to inform you that you are working against the 'projection' directly. In order to resolve the shots against the generator, one would need to first prove that the Projection is part of that unit's Composition and it does not exist on any Composition tables that I have reviewed. Therefore nothing within 'resolve against the projection' can be translated to 'resolve against the generating unit' even though the unit in question is technically the source of the projection. The reason I believe people are trying to conclude the shots must be re-allocated to the generator is because this does fix a nice little quandary this situation creates: How to resolve attacks against something that does not technically exist as more then a Special Rule on a piece of paper?

I put forth that this quandary doesn't need to exist at all, that we created it all in in error, as the shots where never re-allocated in the first place as we have only been resolving a Special Rule that works perfectly fine if the shots are still allocated to the original target.

The idea that a Special Rule can be evoked by a third party is not abnormal, there are some 'multiplication' based tactics designed around this fact. Most of the Special Rules that fall under this category do so by having a trigger designed around some action and a measurable distance, making it possible for the rule to trigger even when events are being resolved against a completely different unit. Whenever we encounter those situations we do not suddenly treat the unit containing the Special Rule as the target of the event being resolved. All we do is follow the wording of the Special Rule, as best as it can be applied to the event, and hope we don't do anything too wrong because Game Workshop rarely thinks on conflicts that might occur within these situations. I put forth this is just the same situation as all of those other 'if Y occurs within X inches then do Z' Special rules, evoking the Void Shield Projection special rule does nothing to change whom is being targeted but simply tells us to 'stop, do something first, then proceed like normal' as every other Special Rule in this situation follows that format.

Some questions still remain as to what that 'something first' actually requires, Why the hell didn't Game Workshop state 'remaining hits' instead of 'further hits,' but I believe the 're-allocating to the Generator' mentality is incorrect.

I put forth that this quandary doesn't need to exist at all, that we created it all in in error, as the shots where never re-allocated in the first place as we have only been resolving a Special Rule that doesn't actually require us to re-allocate the hits in order to function.

Except it specifically tells us to reallocate the hits.

FlingItNow,

I think I have not explained the point very well if all you focused on was a fraction of a single closing line and not the context in which the word re-allocation is being used. The point I was trying to make is that it is entirely possible to resolve the Projected Void Shield Special Rule, which does involve the bizarre situation of 'hitting' a Special Rule, without changing the official 'target' of those hits. I even propose it is actually impossible to resolve the rule in any way that would require changing the target because of that specific point: You are told to resolve the hits against a Special Rule, not against the unit which contains the special rule. If you end up changing the official 'target' in this situation, then the only model you would have permission to choose as the new target has to be named 'Projected Void Shield.' As there is no such model as a Projected Void Shield, it is not found on any of the Composition entries for Terrain or Units alike, vital details required for the shooting sequence is lacking and it can not be completed.

Effectively, if we treat resolving the Special Rule as changing the 'target,' we end up with a completely illegal target for everything other then what is mentioned within the Special Rule....

Instead I go back to what I have stated before, a Special Rule has permission to change all sorts of things around to suit it's purpose. It would be possible, from a Rules as Written stance, for a Special Rule to require us to resolve something against a third party without it needing the 'target' to change to said third party. This would allow the normal sequence of events, assuming the Special Rule takes place in the middle of a larger rule-set, to be resolved against the original target once the Special Rule has concluded in any way that has something left over to conclude. I would like for it to have something to inform us that it intends for the rest of the sequence to conclude against the original target just for celerity sake, but enough time on boards like this has informed me that sometimes 'reminders' are in fact needed. Maybe by including a sentence that uses the terminology 'original target' to indicate that we should not forget whom this was.

--- Added for interest ---

Before I begin, I still think they should of just used the word Remaining over the word Further for while it is technically correct the word Remaining would of carried the concept better. I will waste another hour and put one last line of thought forward so there is multiple arguments as to why this rule can actually work via Rules as written stances. While I didn't address it before, I have to simply state this: The argument that this Special Rule would trigger on the first successful hit, be resolved, and then further 'To Hit Rolls' would be carried out correct from the black and white world of Rules as Written. This is because rules, special or otherwise, do follow a sequence of events no matter how 'simultaneous' they might seem. Even in cases of conflicts there is always a means to determine the order they are resolved in, either within the rule creating the conflict, when it would trigger in the sequence of events, or simply one of the players choosing the order of events. In this game, it is not intended for any rule to trigger at the very same moment as another.

This is why some arguments can be solved by a 'time line debate,' and most of these arguments involve rules that have some sort of sequence of smaller rules. I consider these to be 'sub-sets' of rules and they are very obvious, they usually tell you the exact steps to follow when these sequences occur or give you some sort of trigger in an already existing sequence. I feel the most obvious example of this concept is the shooting sequence. Sadly, it is one of the more complicated examples as it contains steps within steps, requiring data from many sections of the book and the results of many individual Rolls. Even within this complicated mess, there is a timeline that makes it all function... at least as well as Game Workshop can. The interesting concept to keep in mind is that of triggers, as they could contain interrupts which click into these time lines.

So we shall take a good look at how this words for the Projector Void Shield, which I do keep pointing out is a Special Rule and nothing more for a reason... the most common rule to contain triggers.
(Sadly, the time-lines are a little hard to put down in text and I am not the best at writing them out, and shooting is the most complicated, so I do hope this attempt gets through because I don't have an interest in typing out after this last editorial. )

Step one is very easy to resolve as it has only one sub-set within it, a simple restriction and the option to chose a unit to fire.
Step two is simply data collecting from other sections to get to the important part, the actual Rolls themselves.
Step three informs us to Roll a single dice for each shot fired, therefore you know how many dice you make for each individual Roll.
Step Four and further is cut, for not being reverent, as we have yet to complete all of Step three when we encounter the point to consider.

Knowing how many individual die to use in each Roll is important, the terminology Roll is defined right at the beginning of the book because this fact is very important to keep in mind. It also seems to be one of the smallest moment in the timeline, a clear break where an action must take place that is resolved simply, so it is very important for any debate based on this aspect of Rules as Written. As soon as you roll your first To Hit result, the very first die to hit the table as this Rolls is a single die, you can trigger an interrupt. There is even one of those annoying sentence that can be pointed to as a clear 'reminder' that each Roll for the To Hit results is an individual entity, as we are informed if Special Rules are in play to roll the dice in some way we can tell them apart. The time line argument simply allows a Special Rule or some other intercept to trigger between a break in these Rolls and the rules themselves constantly remind us we need to know this order for some reason and give us ways to resolve it quickly and still keep the order results functioning. Anything that prevents you from determining the order of the Roll, Special Rule are constantly named throughout this section of the rules, require each Roll to be resolved separately until it is safe to return to simply rolling Rolls in groups once more.

So the thing people against the Rule as Written argument need to prove in this black and white world is simple:
That the Projected Void Shield Special Rule is not capable of being triggering as soon as that first To Hit Roll die hits the table.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Multiple different Saves & Look out Sir, vehicle squadrons and Entropic Strike. But I have already addressed that we go ahead and do all of Step 4 in one go because 85% of the time it does not matter.

Saves and LoS are not step 4, they are step 5 at which point I agree we are sequential because the rules tell us we are. Entropic strike does not mean armour pen are sequential it means entropic strike is a step 3a that happens between step 3 and step 4 much like the rule here. Vehicle squadrons makes step 4 sequential as an exception which just further proves that step 4 is not normally sequential. So can you please provide some actual rules for this sequential step 4 or do you concede?

Page 14, roll to wound: "To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strengthwith the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound Chart." Nothing in this tells you it is simultaneous(I will get to paragraph 1 in counter response to that citation); this is something you do for every hit, that would be sequential(We just do it all at once with fast rolling, which is an optional rule to save time).

Armour Penetration is 100% sequential in every situation.

Citation required.

Page 73, First paragraph, last sentence: "If any hits are scored, roll for each to see if they penetrate the vehicle's Armor Value, as explained next."

How do you handle mass, simultaneous rolling if you get 3 Glances and 1 Pen(non-Land Raider)? Do you even bother to roll on the Damage table? after all per Page 74, under Resolving Damage, Wrecked vehicles your vehicle is wrecked the moment it loses it's last Hull point; do you even bother rolling on the damage chart, What if it is a transport, the damage result could effect the passengers, but since you are rolling and applying them all simultaneously Then the vehicle is reduced to 0 hull points and immediately wrecked(and will never know if the first of second penetration roll were the Penetrating hit, resulting in damage that might effect the passengers)

Citation is need for step 4 to be simultaneous, the rules simply do not support it.

Page 13 paragraph 1.

Yes Rolling to hit is simultaneous as specifically stated in that sentence; that does not apply in any way to the rest of the shooting process; it even supports Sequential as default.

Page 14, roll to wound: "To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strengthwith the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound Chart." Nothing in this tells you it is simultaneous(I will get to paragraph 1 in counter response to that citation); this is something you do for every hit, that would be sequential(We just do it all at once with fast rolling, which is an optional rule to save time).

A one to one ratio does not mean something is sequential. Notice the same wording in rolling to hit.

Page 73, First paragraph, last sentence: "If any hits are scored, roll for each to see if they penetrate the vehicle's Armor Value, as explained next."

How do you handle mass, simultaneous rolling if you get 3 Glances and 1 Pen(non-Land Raider)? Do you even bother to roll on the Damage table? after all per Page 74, under Resolving Damage, Wrecked vehicles your vehicle is wrecked the moment it loses it's last Hull point; do you even bother rolling on the damage chart, What if it is a transport, the damage result could effect the passengers, but since you are rolling and applying them all simultaneously Then the vehicle is reduced to 0 hull points and immediately wrecked(and will never know if the first of second penetration roll were the Penetrating hit, resulting in damage that might effect the passengers)

As above. Plus again look at the vehicle squadron rules this will sort this out for you. As for rolling for damage result. You wouldn't if there wasn't a specific exemption telling that you should. Even if the pen rolls are sequential damage table rolls come after so you get the same chain so I really don't get your point here.

Yes Rolling to hit is simultaneous as specifically stated in that sentence; that does not apply in any way to the rest of the shooting process; it even supports Sequential as default.

That rule applies to all shooting not just to hit rolls. Either everything is sequential including to hit rolls (by ignoring that rule) or nothing that doesn't specify it is sequential as an exception.

Jinxdragon:

This seems hypocritical:

If you end up changing the official 'target' in this situation, then the only model you would have permission to choose as the new target has to be named 'Projected Void Shield.' As there is no such model as a Projected Void Shield, it is not found on any of the Composition entries for Terrain or Units alike, vital details required for the shooting sequence is lacking and it can not be completed.

Effectively, if we treat resolving the Special Rule as changing the 'target,' we end up with a completely illegal target for everything other then what is mentioned within the Special Rule....

Instead I go back to what I have stated before, a Special Rule has permission to change all sorts of things around to suit it's purpose. It would be possible, from a Rules as Written stance, for a Special Rule to require us to resolve something against a third party without it needing the 'target' to change to said third party.

So it can have stuff resolve against a 3rd party that is never the target but it can't have you target a non-model? As you say "a Special Rule has permission to change all sorts of things around to suit it's purpose" so targeting a non-model is certainly one of them. Though I feel we're getting hung up on target which is essentially irrelevant here the hits do not hit the target unit. We are told this, they instead hit a VSP.

Now how do we resolve those hits. As normal against AV12 by rolling all armour pen simultaneously and then moving onto the next step. Or do we resolve them differently to normal shooting by rolling one at a time until the shield is down? If it is the later where are we getting permission to break the normal shooting rules?

Before I begin, I still think they should of just used the word Remaining over the word Further for while it is technically correct the word Remaining would of carried the concept better. I will waste another hour and put one last line of thought forward so there is multiple arguments as to why this rule can actually work via Rules as written stances. While I didn't address it before, I have to simply state this: The argument that this Special Rule would trigger on the first successful hit, be resolved, and then further 'To Hit Rolls' would be carried out correct from the black and white world of Rules as Written. This is because rules, special or otherwise, do follow a sequence of events no matter how 'simultaneous' they might seem. Even in cases of conflicts there is always a means to determine the order they are resolved in, either within the rule creating the conflict, when it would trigger in the sequence of events, or simply one of the players choosing the order of events. In this game, it is not intended for any rule to trigger at the very same moment as another.

This is why some arguments can be solved by a 'time line debate,' and most of these arguments involve rules that have some sort of sequence of smaller rules. I consider these to be 'sub-sets' of rules and they are very obvious, they usually tell you the exact steps to follow when these sequences occur or give you some sort of trigger in an already existing sequence. I feel the most obvious example of this concept is the shooting sequence. Sadly, it is one of the more complicated examples as it contains steps within steps, requiring data from many sections of the book and the results of many individual Rolls. Even within this complicated mess, there is a timeline that makes it all function... at least as well as Game Workshop can. The interesting concept to keep in mind is that of triggers, as they could contain interrupts which click into these time lines.

So we shall take a good look at how this words for the Projector Void Shield, which I do keep pointing out is a Special Rule and nothing more for a reason... the most common rule to contain triggers.
(Sadly, the time-lines are a little hard to put down in text and I am not the best at writing them out, and shooting is the most complicated, so I do hope this attempt gets through because I don't have an interest in typing out after this last editorial. )

Step one is very easy to resolve as it has only one sub-set within it, a simple restriction and the option to chose a unit to fire.
Step two is simply data collecting from other sections to get to the important part, the actual Rolls themselves.
Step three informs us to Roll a single dice for each shot fired, therefore you know how many dice you make for each individual Roll.
Step Four and further is cut, for not being reverent, as we have yet to complete all of Step three when we encounter the point to consider.

Knowing how many individual die to use in each Roll is important, the terminology Roll is defined right at the beginning of the book because this fact is very important to keep in mind. It also seems to be one of the smallest moment in the timeline, a clear break where an action must take place that is resolved simply, so it is very important for any debate based on this aspect of Rules as Written. As soon as you roll your first To Hit result, the very first die to hit the table as this Rolls is a single die, you can trigger an interrupt. There is even one of those annoying sentence that can be pointed to as a clear 'reminder' that each Roll for the To Hit results is an individual entity, as we are informed if Special Rules are in play to roll the dice in some way we can tell them apart. The time line argument simply allows a Special Rule or some other intercept to trigger between a break in these Rolls and the rules themselves constantly remind us we need to know this order for some reason and give us ways to resolve it quickly and still keep the order results functioning. Anything that prevents you from determining the order of the Roll, Special Rule are constantly named throughout this section of the rules, require each Roll to be resolved separately until it is safe to return to simply rolling Rolls in groups once more.

So the thing people against the Rule as Written argument need to prove in this black and white world is simple:
That the Projected Void Shield Special Rule is not capable of being triggering as soon as that first To Hit Roll die hits the table.

This is actually a much more compelling argument and one that I am satisfied with

 FlingitNow wrote:

Page 14, roll to wound: "To determine whether a hit causes a telling amount of damage, compare the weapon's Strengthwith the target's Toughness characteristic using the To Wound Chart." Nothing in this tells you it is simultaneous(I will get to paragraph 1 in counter response to that citation); this is something you do for every hit, that would be sequential(We just do it all at once with fast rolling, which is an optional rule to save time).

A one to one ratio does not mean something is sequential. Notice the same wording in rolling to hit.

Yes it is the same wording as a rule that had to specify itself to be Simultaneous, meaning that the Default state of that wording is not Simultaneous making it sequential.

Allow me to call attention to the fact that the specification for Simultaneous action does not exist for any of the shooting phase excepting rolling to hit.

Page 73, First paragraph, last sentence: "If any hits are scored, roll for each to see if they penetrate the vehicle's Armor Value, as explained next."

How do you handle mass, simultaneous rolling if you get 3 Glances and 1 Pen(non-Land Raider)? Do you even bother to roll on the Damage table? after all per Page 74, under Resolving Damage, Wrecked vehicles your vehicle is wrecked the moment it loses it's last Hull point; do you even bother rolling on the damage chart, What if it is a transport, the damage result could effect the passengers, but since you are rolling and applying them all simultaneously Then the vehicle is reduced to 0 hull points and immediately wrecked(and will never know if the first of second penetration roll were the Penetrating hit, resulting in damage that might effect the passengers)

As above. Plus again look at the vehicle squadron rules this will sort this out for you. As for rolling for damage result. You wouldn't if there wasn't a specific exemption telling that you should. Even if the pen rolls are sequential damage table rolls come after so you get the same chain so I really don't get your point here.

As Above. I will also refer you to attacks in the Initiative steps(assault phase) which are also specified simultaneous because they would otherwise default to not simultaneous, or sequential. And the wording is different with Assault, it is all of the attacks, not just to-hit that are simultaneous; To-hit rules come later.

Yes Rolling to hit is simultaneous as specifically stated in that sentence; that does not apply in any way to the rest of the shooting process; it even supports Sequential as default.

That rule applies to all shooting not just to hit rolls. Either everything is sequential including to hit rolls (by ignoring that rule) or nothing that doesn't specify it is sequential as an exception.

The subject of the sentence is To hit rolls, it is only talking about to hit rolls. It refers to the rest of shooting just as much as it refers to Psychic abilities or movement(not at all).

FlingItNow,

That more compelling argument was the core I was trying to get across, berried in the necrosis of my incoherent thought patterns, and it took a bit of intoxicants before I found a way to sum it up. This whole mess could of been avoided though, had Game Workshop simply used better words to explain this very unusual 'shoot me' Special Rule. For while the statement 'Further hits' is accurate, as per the time line debate, they could of simply stated 'Remaining hits' and there would of been no need to debate the timing at all. Both sides would achieve the same end results, likely without even realizing there are people resolving the same situation with a different order of events, so they would both be happy.