Hi Guys, I've heard a lot about the four-riptide build but never had to face one.

As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.) and I ignore most of their hurt with a constant 2+ coversave.

So long as I'm getting rid of any markerlights, I really can't see what all the fuss is about - I've done the math, with a farsight bomb like mine you can kill a riptide and a half a turn (admittedly, both need to be within 12". I'm also assuming I took no casualties at the time of shooting.) and then assault to kill the other riptide and a half - if that doesn't work, I can hit and run and shoot at it.

So what's the fuss? Am I an anomaly or is this list just not such a big deal.

Also, if someone can shoot over a model of the 4-riptides build I'd love to test it out for myself.

You are an anomaly...you're also playing tau.

If only there were some way for Riptides to ignore cover. Or re-roll to hit. Or at least increase their ballistic skill.

Then they'd be much better.

Without that, they're simply OK.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Hi Guys, I've heard a lot about the four-riptide build but never had to face one.

As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.) and I ignore most of their hurt with a constant 2+ coversave.

If the enemy Tau player can't get 2 Markerlight hits on you, you've already won.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Hi Guys, I've heard a lot about the four-riptide build but never had to face one.

As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.) and I ignore most of their hurt with a constant 2+ coversave.

If the enemy Tau player can't get 2 Markerlight hits on you, you've already won.

I mean, unless they have a fireblade and dark strider (I doubt this somehow), they can't. I'll make it a point of wiping pathfinders or drones first turn, as you should with any tau army.

Which I can do, considering I'm rbinging two of my own riptides to bear, as well as a lot of nasty guns.

Any codex outside of the big three has a problem with Riptides, because they don't have easy access to mobile/ignore-cover/low-AP/wound-reroll tucked into one package.

Or you know most 4 Riptide lists run Ovesastar and have the Buff commander running with a riptide, Farsight, ovesa, and some drones...1 or 2 S8 Ap2, twin linked, Ignores Cover large blast and your Farsight bomb is going to be hurting.

Then the other 2- 3 Riptides are hitting other stuff.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Any codex outside of the big three has a problem with Riptides, because they don't have easy access to mobile/ignore-cover/low-AP/wound-reroll tucked into one package.

Funny thing is that Tyranids have the best riptide killing unit in Shrikes with boneswords and toxin sacs. They can put out a ton of attacks and can put a decent number of wounds on it. They can also ID on a 6 so they have that going for them. Fast units too and can probably kill it before it can hit back.

But they are real fragile. Kill one riptide and then get shot to pieces while standing in the open.

 Gloomfang wrote:

Funny thing is that Tyranids have the best riptide killing unit in Shrikes with boneswords and toxin sacs. They can put out a ton of attacks and can put a decent number of wounds on it. They can also ID on a 6 so they have that going for them. Fast units too and can probably kill it before it can hit back.

But they are real fragile. Kill one riptide and then get shot to pieces while standing in the open.

Daemonettes and Seekers both rend it down, and are cheaper (well, the nettes are - not sure on Seekers vs Shrikes). Riptides crumple in assaults, that's nothing new - getting there is the problem. If you can get within charge distance of a Riptide you've got mad skills, or the Tau player is a poor decision maker.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
If you can get within charge distance of a Riptide you've got mad skills, or the Tau player is a poor decision maker.

Or you were in a Land Raider.

Just, you know, remember to not use the Force Weapon until the OPPONENT'S turn so your Inquisitorial Assault Squad doesn't get shot to pieces on the Tau player's next turn.

Minor details, I know...

*sighs*

Yeah, I don't have any problem taking down riptides either.

Terminator Assault Squads in Landraiders or StormRavens
Command Squads with Plasma Guns
Marine Captain with Thunderhammer and Shield Eternal
Grav Gun Bikers
Storm Talons with Skyhammer
Landspeeders with x2 Assault Cannons
Sternguard with combi-plasma
Grav Gun Centurions

Any two of these together are capable of taking down a Rip-Tide a turn and some of them can take one down a turn on their own. And that's just one codex. Plan on Monstrous Creature spam when building your list for competitive tournaments and you should have no problem whatsoever in clearing the board of Riptides by turn 3. I aim to take down two a turn if I can, to minimise the number of anti-riptide units I lose to the surviving rip-tides.

Really, I don't quite understand what all the fuss is about. Even before the new SM codex, when I was using a lot of Guard, I had no trouble taking them down thanks to lots and lots of vehicle mounted heavy bolters, multi-lasers and a Leman Russ Punisher.

 Magc8Ball wrote:

Or you were in a Land Raider.

Just, you know, remember to not use the Force Weapon until the OPPONENT'S turn so your Inquisitorial Assault Squad doesn't get shot to pieces on the Tau player's next turn.

Minor details, I know...

*sighs*

Even a Land Raider needs to get within 12'' to guarantee the charge, or 18'' to make it possible. Between a 6'' move and a 2d6 or 4d6 assault move, you're not getting there. Or if you are, there are broadsides and other Riptides around to share overwatch and butcher your charging unit before it gets there. Assuming you got there without getting surprise-melta'd at 9'' from a Crisis suit drop, who then assault jumped away. Or a Longstrike Hammerhead.

I'm not saying charging Riptides is impossible, but it is exceedingly difficult - and with markerlight support, their only weakness. You generally can't outshoot them. The list of units that can reliably catch a Riptide and kill it in an assault are slim. It's why they're so good: a combination of durability, maneuverability, and firepower that is as-of-yet unmatched.

While we all respect the might riptide, 4 riptide lists are just ones where there are fewer points to spend on markerlights. While they have torn my CSMs a new one a few times, my strategy against Riptides are to cause a morale check.

My of my CSMs cause fear.

 LeadLegion wrote:
Yeah, I don't have any problem taking down riptides either.

Terminator Assault Squads in Landraiders or StormRavens
Command Squads with Plasma Guns
Marine Captain with Thunderhammer and Shield Eternal
Grav Gun Bikers
Storm Talons with Skyhammer
Landspeeders with x2 Assault Cannons
Sternguard with combi-plasma
Grav Gun Centurions

Any two of these together are capable of taking down a Rip-Tide a turn and some of them can take one down a turn on their own. And that's just one codex. Plan on Monstrous Creature spam when building your list for competitive tournaments and you should have no problem whatsoever in clearing the board of Riptides by turn 3. I aim to take down two a turn if I can, to minimise the number of anti-riptide units I lose to the surviving rip-tides.

Really, I don't quite understand what all the fuss is about. Even before the new SM codex, when I was using a lot of Guard, I had no trouble taking them down thanks to lots and lots of vehicle mounted heavy bolters, multi-lasers and a Leman Russ Punisher.

Terminator Assault Squads aren't supposed to get to Riptides, ever. That's poor play on part of the Tau player, plain and simple. It's a Jetpack MC with humongous range.

Command Squads with Plasma Guns on average kill half a Riptide a turn, in Rapid Fire, assuming it doesn't have the 3++, FNP or some sort of cover better than 5++.

Chapter Masters can work (assuming bike mounted, otherwise see TH/SS), but you'll be hard-pressed to get more than one Riptide per game with him and his friends, and even that will take some chasing, during which the Riptide is still shooting.

Grav gun bikers need to be within 18" and still only do slightly more than half a Riptide per turn, assuming 5++ and no FNP.

Storm Talons deal 0.926 wounds per turn, assuming no FNP or better than 5++.

Land Speeders with Assault Cannons have a 24" range and deal 0.888... wounds per turn on average, again assuming no FNP or better than 5++.

10 Sternguard with Combi-Plasma deal 5.925... wounds in Rapid Fire range, assuming 5++ and no FNP. Almost there!

Grav-cannon Centurions, assuming no MLs and 3 Centurions, do 5.555... wounds, assuming no FNP and no better than 5++. Four Centurions kill a Riptide a turn on average.

So yeah, out of the stuff you listed the only three realistic options are Sternguard, who are freakishly expensive and prone to sudden cases of death after reaching their target, Chapter Master on bike with friends, who will take most of the game chasing the Riptide down while being freakishly expensive, and Grav-Centurions, who are freakishly expensive, vulnerable to AP2 and have to be within 24" of the Jump MC with freakish range.

And all of this is assuming that the Riptide doesn't pass its check for 3++, doesn't have FNP, doesn't have Interceptor, doesn't have any sort of supporting army blocking you from reaching it and, above all else, that it doesn't simply shoot you first. With a range of >24", it has the edge over most of above units.

who needs to kill a riptide when you can just tie it in combat for the entire game. Chaos spawn anyone? Still, wouldn't like to hedge my bets against more than 2 of them...

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.)

Well, that's so nice of you! Assuming you want ( if you don't, then read on with the next post) to make a point about the non-cheesiness of Riptide spam and implicite a non-issue, here are a few words I recently read somewhere on the interwebz: "Anecdotal evidence is fallacious at best. [Stop using it to prove points that aren't true.]" But I have to say, it's good to see the thing illuminated from all sides!

 somecallmeJack wrote:
who needs to kill a riptide when you can just tie it in combat for the entire game. Chaos spawn anyone? Still, wouldn't like to hedge my bets against more than 2 of them...

First you need to get into combat, then you need to not take S10 smashes to your T5 models without Invulnerable Saves.

Terminator Assault Squads aren't supposed to get to Riptides, ever. That's poor play on part of the Tau player, plain and simple. It's a Jetpack MC with humongous range.

Command Squads with Plasma Guns on average kill half a Riptide a turn, in Rapid Fire, assuming it doesn't have the 3++, FNP or some sort of cover better than 5++.

Chapter Masters can work (assuming bike mounted, otherwise see TH/SS), but you'll be hard-pressed to get more than one Riptide per game with him and his friends, and even that will take some chasing, during which the Riptide is still shooting.

Grav gun bikers need to be within 18" and still only do slightly more than half a Riptide per turn, assuming 5++ and no FNP.

Storm Talons deal 0.926 wounds per turn, assuming no FNP or better than 5++.

Land Speeders with Assault Cannons have a 24" range and deal 0.888... wounds per turn on average, again assuming no FNP or better than 5++.

10 Sternguard with Combi-Plasma deal 5.925... wounds in Rapid Fire range, assuming 5++ and no FNP. Almost there!

Grav-cannon Centurions, assuming no MLs and 3 Centurions, do 5.555... wounds, assuming no FNP and no better than 5++. Four Centurions kill a Riptide a turn on average.

So yeah, out of the stuff you listed the only three realistic options are Sternguard, who are freakishly expensive and prone to sudden cases of death after reaching their target, Chapter Master on bike with friends, who will take most of the game chasing the Riptide down while being freakishly expensive, and Grav-Centurions, who are freakishly expensive, vulnerable to AP2 and have to be within 24" of the Jump MC with freakish range.

And all of this is assuming that the Riptide doesn't pass its check for 3++, doesn't have FNP, doesn't have Interceptor, doesn't have any sort of supporting army blocking you from reaching it and, above all else, that it doesn't simply shoot you first. With a range of >24", it has the edge over most of above units.

Yes, as I said. Two of these units in combination can take down a Riptide in a single turn and a Terminator Squad assaulting out of a Stormraven has no problems catching a Riptide (assuming it doesn't get shot down first mind you, taking it's expensive squad with it).That being said I hadn't considered the actual maths involved, only my own Imperical experience. With the actual stats laid so bare, it seems that I have very much been bucking the trend with "clutch " rolls when it comes to killing Riptides with my Marines. I wonder how long I'll be able to keep on killing two a turn now that I have the odds in my head to make me doubt whether taking the shot is worth while?

Edit: The list I commonly use includes the following units that are effective in killing MC's: 2x10 Combi-Plasma Sternguard in Droppod, min assault squad with flamers in Pod (not actually anti MC, but lets me drop both Sternguard pods in turn one), 5x TH/SS in StormRaven, Landspeeder Squadron and 1x Scout Sniper Squad split into combat teams (forgot to mention those in my list of anti-MC units, mostly due to the lack of decent AP). The Sternguard squads (both drop in turn one) usually knock most of the wounds of two riptides in turn one (three pods, so I can drop both Sternguard in turn one). The Scouts, Landspeeders and other units in the army are normally sufficient to knock off the remaining wound or two on the damaged Riptides or, if I'm really lucky and two Riptides are already gone, I try to knock a few more wounds off a third rip-tide.

Turn 2: I normally lose most of both Sternguard squads in my opponents turn (even though they've shot their load of plasma, they're still usually way to oclose to his firewarriors to be ignored) to his remaining Riptides and other units. If I'm lucky (helped by Coteaz with his Psyker power and other reserve shenanigans) the Stormraven comes in and IF it's not shot down it, in conjunction with the Landspeeder squadron and scouts (and maybe one or two other units), it kills another Riptide. If necessary, other units in the army can be used to knock off the remaining wounds to secure a kill OR, if I was already able to knock a few wounds off Riptide 3 in turn 1, they can knock a few wounds off the final riptide.

Turn 3. If there are any surviving Riptides and the Stormraven hasn't been shot down, it goes into Hover Mode, shoots up the Riptide with the most wounds remaining and the n the TH/SS Termies finish it off. If there is yet another Riptide still alive, the surviving landspeeders and scouts (if any) try to finish it off.

Turn 4 onwards: Focus on killing troops and seizing objectives.

Big Caveat: This is a "near-ideal" scenario, considering the Riptides and my anti-riptide units in a near vacuum and not really taking into account the Tau player's other units. It usually doesn't work out anywhere near as cleanly as I'm making it sound and I'll often still have one or (very rarely) two wounded Riptides jumping around in turn 4.

So csm termicide does not work? Can riptides shoot further than 48"? If not then i gotta try to force wounds with havocs+ac. If the riptides can shoot further then i just have to bring back my defilers n hope i can hug cover n get lucky. I dont know what else to do if these fail.

Breng77 wrote:
Or you know most 4 Riptide lists run Ovesastar and have the Buff commander running with a riptide, Farsight, ovesa, and some drones...1 or 2 S8 Ap2, twin linked, Ignores Cover large blast and your Farsight bomb is going to be hurting.

Then the other 2- 3 Riptides are hitting other stuff.

... except where I can knock out Ovesa, Farsight and a Support suit in one turn's shooting.

Y'know, because I didn't do the math for O'vesa, right?

I did it for two different units, one with a unit of 3 suits and one with 2 riptides (one being o'vesa), shadowsun, farsight and a support suit.

Those are two ways I've seen it run. would you like me to do the math on something else?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suite wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.)

Well, that's so nice of you! Assuming you want ( if you don't, then read on with the next post) to make a point about the non-cheesiness of Riptide spam and implicite a non-issue, here are a few words I recently read somewhere on the interwebz: "Anecdotal evidence is fallacious at best. [Stop using it to prove points that aren't true.]" But I have to say, it's good to see the thing illuminated from all sides!

Except when the argument is not anecdotal. Y'know, because I didn't give an example in that argument, but stated the logical reasoning that is "I can kill monsters well because I have a rule that allows me to kill monsters well." But nice try at being condescending. An Anecdote would be something like "this one time I made 74 2+ cover saves no lie." Are you maybe trying to say that the argument's anecdotal because it only applies to my specific build? I was asking why other armies find it threatening, while stating that mine doesn't. This still isn't an anecdote.

And Statistics are also not an anecdote. They're mathematical proof of average ability.

Riptides are so easy to counter, you just bring your own 4 Riptides and make sure you're a better player. So easy!

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Or you know most 4 Riptide lists run Ovesastar and have the Buff commander running with a riptide, Farsight, ovesa, and some drones...1 or 2 S8 Ap2, twin linked, Ignores Cover large blast and your Farsight bomb is going to be hurting.

Then the other 2- 3 Riptides are hitting other stuff.

... except where I can knock out Ovesa, Farsight and a Support suit in one turn's shooting.

Y'know, because I didn't do the math for O'vesa, right?

I did it for two different units, one with a unit of 3 suits and one with 2 riptides (one being o'vesa), shadowsun, farsight and a support suit.

Those are two ways I've seen it run. would you like me to do the math on something else?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suite wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.)

Well, that's so nice of you! Assuming you want ( if you don't, then read on with the next post) to make a point about the non-cheesiness of Riptide spam and implicite a non-issue, here are a few words I recently read somewhere on the interwebz: "Anecdotal evidence is fallacious at best. [Stop using it to prove points that aren't true.]" But I have to say, it's good to see the thing illuminated from all sides!

Except when the argument is not anecdotal. Y'know, because I didn't give an example in that argument, but stated the logical reasoning that is "I can kill monsters well because I have a rule that allows me to kill monsters well." But nice try at being condescending. An Anecdote would be something like "this one time I made 74 2+ cover saves no lie." Are you maybe trying to say that the argument's anecdotal because it only applies to my specific build? I was asking why other armies find it threatening, while stating that mine doesn't. This still isn't an anecdote.

And Statistics are also not an anecdote. They're mathematical proof of average ability.

When the O'Vesa star falls in one turn it's really painful...but that happens quite rarely.

"Why is everyone afraid of a guy with a chainsaw?" says a man with a chainsaw.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
Or you know most 4 Riptide lists run Ovesastar and have the Buff commander running with a riptide, Farsight, ovesa, and some drones...1 or 2 S8 Ap2, twin linked, Ignores Cover large blast and your Farsight bomb is going to be hurting.

Then the other 2- 3 Riptides are hitting other stuff.

... except where I can knock out Ovesa, Farsight and a Support suit in one turn's shooting.

Y'know, because I didn't do the math for O'vesa, right?

I did it for two different units, one with a unit of 3 suits and one with 2 riptides (one being o'vesa), shadowsun, farsight and a support suit.

Those are two ways I've seen it run. would you like me to do the math on something else?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Suite wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.)

Well, that's so nice of you! Assuming you want ( if you don't, then read on with the next post) to make a point about the non-cheesiness of Riptide spam and implicite a non-issue, here are a few words I recently read somewhere on the interwebz: "Anecdotal evidence is fallacious at best. [Stop using it to prove points that aren't true.]" But I have to say, it's good to see the thing illuminated from all sides!

Except when the argument is not anecdotal. Y'know, because I didn't give an example in that argument, but stated the logical reasoning that is "I can kill monsters well because I have a rule that allows me to kill monsters well." But nice try at being condescending. An Anecdote would be something like "this one time I made 74 2+ cover saves no lie." Are you maybe trying to say that the argument's anecdotal because it only applies to my specific build? I was asking why other armies find it threatening, while stating that mine doesn't. This still isn't an anecdote.

And Statistics are also not an anecdote. They're mathematical proof of average ability.

But you also assume getting to 12" unharmed....which you won't ever do so your math doesn't mean much. Its the same for they guy that is saying take 2 pods with sternguard, because the Tau player won't pay 5 points for interceptor to kill your sternguard before they can shoot.

Really the arguments against it being at all good seem to be like....well if the Tau player is bad...its a non-issue.

What I'm saying is that your Farsightbomb will be dead, if not greatly reduced by the time you get to within 12". Because he is just as fast as you with better range. HE also has a better save so his smart missiles (which ignore cover) are doing more damage on average.

I'm not saying mathematically you cannot kill the unit...I;m saying practically, against a good player, the situation you propose won't happen, and you'll lose your unit first. Because your whole argument was...I have this great cover save, and I'll kill all his markerlights, before he uses them, get to 12" unharmed, and wreck him. Which to me is wishful thinking. I think it is more realistic to say....his unit ignores your cover, and out ranges you with pie plates that instant death your suits....your going to lose some if not all of them...and if you get in range and don't kill him he will shoot, charge and kill you.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

I mean, unless they have a fireblade and dark strider (I doubt this somehow), they can't. I'll make it a point of wiping pathfinders or drones first turn, as you should with any tau army.

Which I can do, considering I'm rbinging two of my own riptides to bear, as well as a lot of nasty guns.

So...the recipe against Tau and their Riptides is to play Tau and bring your own Riptides?

I'm speechless.

Backfire wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

I mean, unless they have a fireblade and dark strider (I doubt this somehow), they can't. I'll make it a point of wiping pathfinders or drones first turn, as you should with any tau army.

Which I can do, considering I'm rbinging two of my own riptides to bear, as well as a lot of nasty guns.

So...the recipe against Tau and their Riptides is to play Tau and bring your own Riptides?

I'm speechless.

The recipe against tau is to take out their Ignores Cover. After that you cling to cover and hope for the best.

If that's a pathfinder, you kill a pathfinder. If that's a support suit, you get it done. Hell, assault the squad if it doesn't have hit and run. Better to quagmire a support suit riptide team than to take it on when it's shooting.

Not every army has all these great toys to kill Riptides with, especially if you aren't tailoring a list specifically. Besides, what fun is it that I cant field the army I want to field because some cheesy POS wants to field four of them and I am forced to field an unfun army just to counter them. The game is about fun and being forced to bring an army dictated by your opponent is not fun.

How would 3 Wraithknights fair against 3 Riptides?

You're running a drop-dead broken super-deathstar that always lands where it needs to with a uniquely massive complement of special weapons with high accuracy, and you think that the fact it beats Riptides (well doh) says anything about how hard they are to kill?

4 Riptides is 4 S8 AP2 Interceptor pie plates with infinite range that make a mockery of elite infantry. One will have TL and ignores cover probably in addition. It takes 1-2 turns of "safe" with no retaliation, killing power to down one with select units from most Codex's, and they require great circumstances often.

Mr.Omega wrote:You're running a drop-dead broken super-deathstar that always lands where it needs to with a uniquely massive complement of special weapons with high accuracy, and you think that the fact it beats Riptides (well doh) says anything about how hard they are to kill?

4 Riptides is 4 S8 AP2 Interceptor pie plates with infinite range that make a mockery of elite infantry. One will have TL and ignores cover probably in addition. It takes 1-2 turns of "safe" with no retaliation, killing power to down one with select units from most Codex's, and they require great circumstances often.

No. That's not what I asked or what I've been trying to say.

My question, hell the thread title is why are people afraid? I know why I am not afraid. I'm afraid of very few things using my farsight bomb, and riptides rank very low on that list (lower, you might find surprising, than 300 guardsmen.) I think you've given me the best answer so far, but everyone's so sneering towards me for asking this question. Here's the fact, I'm not here to brag about how good a farsight bomb is. I know its capabilities better than I understand basic fractions. What I don't know is a Riptide army. I've never faced one and I've only run simulations of how the game would unfold.

So other armies struggle because it takes 13 AP2 wounds to down a riptide with stim injectors? I think I'm starting to get the problem now, but even when I play marines I really don't find them that scary - I guess that's just because I've subconciously tailored to take out 4 riptides. I guess I really have to face the threat before I can actually understand why they're so scary to other people.

Col. Dash wrote:Not every army has all these great toys to kill Riptides with, especially if you aren't tailoring a list specifically. Besides, what fun is it that I cant field the army I want to field because some cheesy POS wants to field four of them and I am forced to field an unfun army just to counter them. The game is about fun and being forced to bring an army dictated by your opponent is not fun.

I'm really surprised about these kinds of comments on this thread. It's very clear I haven't played a 4-riptide army. I wouldn't be asking *why are people afraid* and *can someone show this list to me* if I had. The mere fact that I *do* destroy these units does not mean that I'm tailoring. I'm tailoring to a meta filled with monsters and at the very least, flyers. I don't see many tanks (aside from the odd Rhino or drop pod, and serpents, of course) I am not tailoring to riptides and I'm frustrated that I'm being accused of doing so.

Also, do people run that kind of a list outside of competitive play? I run a Marine List when I just want a fun list. It's still a competitive list, but it isn't stupidly rulebuffed like the farsight bomb is. I can't imagine having 4 models doing all your actions during a turn being fun. I guess maybe it's better than one unit, but at least that unit can target a whole bunch of stuff.

Now I'd like to make this clear to every future poster: I wasn't trying to brag. I wasn't trying to cause an upset, I just wanted to understand an army that by all accounts I've read, I should be afraid of. I just struggle to be and I want to know why it happens elsewhere.

I guess if you have not played one maybe the answer is that you should be more worried about them then you are?

I'm still not seeing how you are auto getting in range, unwounded, and killing all of them. That is where your similation falls apart for me. There is no explanation of how this will happen.

Are you Jumping across the table and assuming LOS blockers?

Deepstriking into range (which is bound to fail) as you will get instant killed by the Riptides before you do anything?

My whole point is that I don't think you can do what you seem to think you can.

By your own math you need to do 13AP 2 wounds to kill 1 (assuming it does not NOVA charge for a 3++, then it takes what 26?). So say you kill one in a turn, what are the other 3 doing?

Math is great....assuming optimal condidtions for yourself and not the enemy is not.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
Hi Guys, I've heard a lot about the four-riptide build but never had to face one.

As far as I'm concerned, they're not a threat, but I have an army which is extremely capable of taking out things with the monster typing. (Y'know, having the monster hunters special rule.) and I ignore most of their hurt with a constant 2+ coversave.

So long as I'm getting rid of any markerlights, I really can't see what all the fuss is about - I've done the math, with a farsight bomb like mine you can kill a riptide and a half a turn (admittedly, both need to be within 12". I'm also assuming I took no casualties at the time of shooting.) and then assault to kill the other riptide and a half - if that doesn't work, I can hit and run and shoot at it.

So what's the fuss? Am I an anomaly or is this list just not such a big deal.

Also, if someone can shoot over a model of the 4-riptides build I'd love to test it out for myself.

If you manage to do the same with an army that does not have the same kind of power builds. Id consider that impressive. but grabbing one of the better power build armies out there is just lazy.

Breng77 wrote:
I guess if you have not played one maybe the answer is that you should be more worried about them then you are?

I'm still not seeing how you are auto getting in range, unwounded, and killing all of them. That is where your similation falls apart for me. There is no explanation of how this will happen.

Are you Jumping across the table and assuming LOS blockers?

Deepstriking into range (which is bound to fail) as you will get instant killed by the Riptides before you do anything?

My whole point is that I don't think you can do what you seem to think you can.

By your own math you need to do 13AP 2 wounds to kill 1 (assuming it does not NOVA charge for a 3++, then it takes what 26?). So say you kill one in a turn, what are the other 3 doing?

Math is great....assuming optimal condidtions for yourself and not the enemy is not.

At best, I get the drop on them. At worst, I get in pretty much unscathed. they're gonna get at most a turn of firepower on me (a good number of my tournaments have let my farsight bomb infiltrate because of shadowsun.) If I get first turn I get fireshield from tigurius giving me a 2+ cover save before they can hit me and I wreck the most dangerous unit (O'vesa star, if it's on the field.) At very worst, you're looking at killing most of my drones.

Also, you're talking 4 nova charges there. O'vesa get's a re-roll, but it's still 3 which is enough for one fail. Every third turn he saves one and loses two wounds for it, assuming enough are alive by turn 3.

Anyway, the real point is, have you seen a farsight bomb go at another farsight bomb? It's not pretty. O'vesa star doesn't sound much different. If I'm getting within 12" first turn (and I can) I've pretty much got any unit in the bag, Farsight Bomb, O'vesa Bomb and possibly even a screamer star included. Especially if O'vesa is reduced to T4 because of how many T4 models are in the unit (I guess that'd need to be 4, which doesn't sound likely.)

Does anyone know how monster hunters works for O'vesa? Because I should get the rule against him, but other wounds won't be hitting him, surely? (I can get the 11-13 wounds necessary to kill him.)


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Bishop F Gantry wrote:

If you manage to do the same with an army that does not have the same kind of power builds. Id consider that impressive. but grabbing one of the better power build armies out there is just lazy.

Well that's completely polite. Actually, I wrote a lot of the convention on running a large farsight bomb. A good portion of the lists I see these days use many of the tactics I've built personally. It's one thing to call me lazy because I am using a powerful army. But it's a complete other to disregard the fact that I designed this list myself, tweaked through dozens of games to get it down to what it is now. I Don't waste time with missile pods because I know I'll make distance. And because I don't waste my time on AP4 shooting, I'm lazy?

Also, again. I can do this without feeling afraid of a riptide army using just a sternguard drop pod army, which doesn't even come close in terms of output to this farsight bomb. I just don't see 4 pie-plates as all that scary. Even if one is ignoring my cover saves.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:
A good portion of the lists I see these days use many of the tactics I've built personally. It's one thing to call me lazy because I am using a powerful army. But it's a complete other to disregard the fact that I designed this list myself, tweaked through dozens of games to get it down to what it is now.

Awwwww, thats cute Maker of oh-so-original powerlist for whole world Sorry, I dont mean to be mean. Its just saying "hey, I have this, one particular army (by accident one of competetively strongest too) and I dont fear those pesky Riptides! So, whats the fuss about? I dont get it" is pretty much...absurd.

Try to take something else, different dex, and try it.

Because I need to do 30 wounds on one or get to melee with it and the fether shoots me if I do + it's friends do so too.

In other words I need 135 Loota shots at one to kill it, and 45 lootas shoot maximum of just that if every one of them rolls 3 for shots, but likely they'll shoot only 90.

SO beyond the iffy legality of infilatrating the unit. Even if you can there is no way against a savy player that you will be within 12" on turn 1.

You cannot infiltrate within 12" (18 if there is LOS) of any enemy unit. So your opponent deploys a couple units out front and the Ovesastar behind them...now you are further away (possibly 36+" away). So more than 1 turn of shooting. 2+ cover is meaningless because they will have ignores cover, with 2 Templates ...so kind of pointless.

Ovessa is Majority T6 (as his shielded Missle drones keep his toughness).

SO sorry just don't see how against a skilled player you accomplish what you are stating.

Even if you are allowed to infiltrate...you will be 2 turns away from effective shooting. So that is then eating a minimum of 4 S8 AP2 Large Blasts that are twin linked ignores cover. So I'm just not seeing you getting there unharmed...you simply are not mobile enough, or durable enough for me to buy it.

Assume four riptides, three groups of pathfinders.

O'Vesa Star has a buffmander.

Enemy has first turn? Riptides stand in front of Pathfinders, block LoS or grant cover. Whether the storm. Return fire next turn with ~3 Riptides dropping ignore cover AP2 blasts. Repeat for turn 2. Repeat for turn 3. etc.

You have first turn? See above, but without you taking a shot first. O'Vesa squad will likely be the only one to get the shot off, but it ignores cover and is twin-linked so it's probably good enough to put a huge dent in something.

All Riptides should be running some 2/3 combination of FNP, Interceptor, or Skyfire. Meaning any deep strikers have to contend with an ENORMOUS amount of fire before they get a shot off. This doesn't take into account kroot bubbles that may be around or HYMP Broadside Teams, who will further cause problems.

The problem is this, to quote myself:

obsidiankatana wrote:It's why they're so good: a combination of durability, maneuverability, and firepower that is as-of-yet unmatched.

Why are people afraid of four-riptides?

Because for some reason GW thought dakkatastic Riptides were fine whilst deep strike/outflank assaults (ie, the gak that can catch them) are clearly too powerful

GW is awful at designing super units. If its strong, fast, and tough, you can bet your arse its underpriced by a huge margin

What I've started doing against Tau with my Dark Angels is bringing 6 3-man biker squads with no upgrades whatsoever, scouting all of them forward, and them deepstriking in a bunch of terminators on turn 1. Guys running that many Riptides really have to prioritize targets and it's pretty much impossible for them to kill everything I've got on the table. Assuming I have anything left at all, Terminators come in, bikers get an assault off against anything they can just to hide from being shot at even more, and if they can tie up the Riptides, sweet. All they have to do is tie it up til my next turn when my terminators can assault and I'm pretty solid.

It's worked out okay for me so far. The biggest issue is how goddamn stupidly good Riptides are in melee. People like to pretend they aren't any good in it because WS2, but guess what. Unless you're rocking WS5 or better, WS2 is the same as WS3, and for the purposes of hitting things yourself, it's WS4 most the time. You still hit on 4+ and because Monstrous Creature gains smash, you're still pretty much insta-gibbing anything you touch. Riptides are rocking 2+ armor so most likely anything that can break it's AP in close combat actually goes after it anyway because unwieldy.

I'm not saying someone is going to build a list designed to get Riptides into close quarters, but I'm just saying they are good to squish a guy or two every close combat and are really difficult to hurt.

obsidiankatana wrote:It's why they're so good: a combination of durability, maneuverability, and firepower that is as-of-yet unmatched.

This. I think four riptides is too many personally and three is a better number without taking away too much of your support, but they are incredibly durable given the manueverability and firepower they have.

Can't cheese a cheeser!

Riptide spam are among the lists that just make 40k unfun. I'd just rather find something better to do with my time than waste 2-3 hours becuase GW doesn't playtest their codexes properly.

The one thing I would love to do is take a Herohammer list against a Riptide list. Some C:SM funtimes with a Bikemaster, Lysander, Calgar, and Cypher. Four EW HQs more than willing and capable to put a Riptide down each - just have to get there. I think that'd be good for some fun.

People get hyper-upset when 4+ units combine to kill maybe 12-15 models per turn.

I don't know why either.

Breng77 wrote:
SO beyond the iffy legality of infilatrating the unit. Even if you can there is no way against a savy player that you will be within 12".

you can infiltrate 18" in sight, and move 6". What's so complicated about that that a savy player can contest it?

I mean, unless it's hammer and anvil, there are very few places to hide. Even if you do hide, I can just assault another riptide to hide on the second turn.

And, I know that Infiltrating based on a character's rule is iffy. But I'm going to make use of it if it's specifically allowed in a tournament.
Some of these tournaments also force my suits to only use one gun on overwatch. So sad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dakkamite wrote:

Why are people afraid of four-riptides?

Because for some reason GW thought dakkatastic Riptides were fine whilst deep strike/outflank assaults (ie, the gak that can catch them) are clearly too powerful

GW is awful at designing super units. If its strong, fast, and tough, you can bet your arse its underpriced by a huge margin

No argument.

Thankyou for finally being someone who gave me an actual answer, rather than saying "you can't tell me your not afraid while taking a powerful army list."

Dakka, I can tell you I'm not afraid. It took until more than 30 replies for two people to give me the answers I Was looking for. I wasn't trying to cause an upset, I merely pointed out that I didn't see what was so bothersome about the particular army. I'm very slowly getting a picture of what the problem is. I'm still taking flak for not having had to face an army that I still don't find all that threatening.

Is this anger against me for not being afraid of something, or against the four riptide list for being good against units of elite infantry? Here's a point, Monsters. 4 riptides can chug out 12 S7AP2 shots which is 6 hits with 4 wounds. That doesn't take down most tyranid monsters. (maybe 5, but that's assuming that we're talking about a t.fex, tervi, or trygon/mawloc.) Armies with scouts can rush in small units to tie up the monsters with WS2. I'm not afraid of four pie plates, and I'm not afraid of riptides. I'm not afraid taking a marine list which can't even be considered tournament-realistic and still feel I'd have a decent chance.

If you come down in drop pods, crowd around the riptide. They can't pie-plate you if they'd have to land over an allies base. If you're deepstriking, find other ways of getting onto the field. Don't leave your units in clumps, spread them out in lines so they're naturally going to be less to hit. Spread them out in coherency so there's going to be less to hit.

Crowding around an objective doesn't help. if you're losing 5 guys to a pie plate that didn't scatter really well you're not spreading out well enough. Any "savvy" player will spread out well enough, hugging cover save for the one that can ignore it.

Quadtide was scary at first since no-one knew how to deal with it. Its still a top-tier build, but it isn't as scary as it used to be.

Lucarikx

I swear to Emprah this is a troll thread. 1 riptide is a major issue for non competitive lists. 4 well.... it's 4 riptides!

Why is this even an active thread anymore..... Riptides combine good maneuverability, good damage output and high toughness on a relatively cheap platform that (with the tools available) is very hard to even get near especially with the other tools in Tau codex' arsenal. 2 Riptides is scary enough. Four? Thats just mean.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:
I swear to Emprah this is a troll thread. 1 riptide is a major issue for non competitive lists. 4 well.... it's 4 riptides!

No, Scipio Africanus makes good points in how to minimize a Riptides threat. He doesnt understand that those 4 Riptides are just as unafraid of his Farsight bomb as he is of them.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

No argument.

Thankyou for finally being someone who gave me an actual answer, rather than saying "you can't tell me your not afraid while taking a powerful army list."

Dakka, I can tell you I'm not afraid. It took until more than 30 replies for two people to give me the answers I Was looking for. I wasn't trying to cause an upset, I merely pointed out that I didn't see what was so bothersome about the particular army. I'm very slowly getting a picture of what the problem is. I'm still taking flak for not having had to face an army that I still don't find all that threatening.

Is this anger against me for not being afraid of something, or against the four riptide list for being good against units of elite infantry? Here's a point, Monsters. 4 riptides can chug out 12 S7AP2 shots which is 6 hits with 4 wounds. That doesn't take down most tyranid monsters. (maybe 5, but that's assuming that we're talking about a t.fex, tervi, or trygon/mawloc.) Armies with scouts can rush in small units to tie up the monsters with WS2. I'm not afraid of four pie plates, and I'm not afraid of riptides. I'm not afraid taking a marine list which can't even be considered tournament-realistic and still feel I'd have a decent chance.

If you come down in drop pods, crowd around the riptide. They can't pie-plate you if they'd have to land over an allies base. If you're deepstriking, find other ways of getting onto the field. Don't leave your units in clumps, spread them out in lines so they're naturally going to be less to hit. Spread them out in coherency so there's going to be less to hit.

Crowding around an objective doesn't help. if you're losing 5 guys to a pie plate that didn't scatter really well you're not spreading out well enough. Any "savvy" player will spread out well enough, hugging cover save for the one that can ignore it.

In the eleventh reply to this thread, I told you exactly why a Riptide is terrifying on its own - which extrapolates to tell why four are even worse.

Now, to break down your futher points - the solid shots aren't remotely why people fear the Riptide. It's the pie plate, which is a 2.5'' radius plate, 5'' diameter. Which means that, when centered on a single infantry model, it will hit at minimum two others. Assuming maximum spread. So you would have to spread all of your infantry out 2'' from each other, and still lose three of them. Conservative estimations put three Riptides ignoring cover, but it's hardly difficult to make all four ignore cover if the enemy is within 36'' of your markerlight support. Two hits is all it takes - requiring four lights to fire at each target, marking a total of twelve pathfinders. You're more likely to see 21 on the board. O'Vesa ignores cover because of the buffmander. So that's four ignore-cover AP 2 pie plates, each killing a minimum of three infantry targets assuming no scatters and maximum infantry spread. Twelve models seems like a pittance, yeah? That's the minimum amount of damage they could inflict. Instant killing anything T4 or lower. Odds are, you can't spread all of your units out the maximum separation. Even if you do, you lose an infantry unit on your first turn. Gone. After having done everything right to avoid it.

Assume you crowd the Riptide, or its allies. Remember that 5'' plate? Add in a 6'' move. You would have to entirely surround the unit to deny their ability to vacate the area for the plate to drop anyway. Then you lose that unit.

Target priority and the ability to remove them are the strengths of the Tau Codex, through focus-fire and ability to ignore armor/cover. Riptides are the platforms to achieve this. And they will - you can't escape them from range, and they don't care about cover, so LoS and assaults are your only options. LoS is a limited solution, assaults require you to close within Markerlight range - exactly where the Riptides shine brightest. If you survive that gauntlet, you have to catch the target. Is it a Riptide? He'll 4d6 assault move away, assuming the 2d6 isn't enough. Is it something else? Clustered Tau units share overwatch, tear you a new one, and you likely fail the charge.

Looking at Riptides in a vacuum, doubting their capabilities is easy. A lot of people did it before the codex released. Gameplay application showed them to be monstrously effective.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Looking at Riptides in a vacuum, doubting their capabilities is easy. A lot of people did it before the codex released. Gameplay application showed them to be monstrously effective.

I don't doubt their capabilities, I just don't feel they're as dangerous as they're trumped up to be. And I still fail to see it as being as effective as the internet thinks it is.

I appreciate what you've told me, and I can start to see why armies that aren't capable of getting the drop on markerlight support or riptides would be worried. I'm just not convinced I need to be worried.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

I don't doubt their capabilities, I just don't feel they're as dangerous as they're trumped up to be. And I still fail to see it as being as effective as the internet thinks it is.

I appreciate what you've told me, and I can start to see why armies that aren't capable of getting the drop on markerlight support or riptides would be worried. I'm just not convinced I need to be worried.

If you can deal with them, don't be worried. Just be aware that all the chatter is far from baseless.

Riptides come with a hidden markerlight tax. If the commander brings that many riptides with no support, he is a fool! A fool i say!

But, if you're killing pathfinders and especially marker drones turn 1...you're opponent might not be that good. Pathfinders i can see, but drones being out in the open turn 1? That commander isn't abusing JSJ.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:

Looking at Riptides in a vacuum, doubting their capabilities is easy. A lot of people did it before the codex released. Gameplay application showed them to be monstrously effective.

I don't doubt their capabilities, I just don't feel they're as dangerous as they're trumped up to be. And I still fail to see it as being as effective as the internet thinks it is.

I appreciate what you've told me, and I can start to see why armies that aren't capable of getting the drop on markerlight support or riptides would be worried. I'm just not convinced I need to be worried.

The internet fails to see you being as effective as you think you are.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

I don't doubt their capabilities, I just don't feel they're as dangerous as they're trumped up to be.

Agreed. They're ok, good even. Four of them is worse than two of them though. They aren't enough fire power to win a game on their own, and at four, that's what you've committed too.

Is this a troll thread? It must be, right?

If not, you'd realize that you can't sit here and ask why it's scary while you use an army capable of utilizing that type of list...And you'd realize that you're theorycrafting, and need to go actually play a list with 4 tides before telling everyone else they're not scary. "I found the perfect counter in my mind, they aren't scary" doesn't make them less scary...

Someone lock this thread for the love of god.

 troa wrote:
Is this a troll thread? It must be, right?

If not, you'd realize that you can't sit here and ask why it's scary while you use an army capable of utilizing that type of list...And you'd realize that you're theorycrafting, and need to go actually play a list with 4 tides before telling everyone else they're not scary. "I found the perfect counter in my mind, they aren't scary" doesn't make them less scary...

Someone lock this thread for the love of god.

No. Most tactics threads aren't in the habit of trolling.

I was trying to find out what was so scary about your average riptide army. I'm starting to get a picture, but I'm still not entirely convinced. If the threat is four pieplates, I'm laughing. If the threat comes from pathfinders or other markerlights, I'm laughing if I get the drop (which I theoretically do 50% of the time).

Now the fact is I said *I'm not afraid*. You can't tell me I have to be afraid, you can only tell me why you're afraid. If I face one, I might get a different picture in my head. It doesn't mean I won't go in with a confident manner, rather than a defeatist one.

Farsight bomb doesn't even work against riptide spam because they will just interceptor you with a bunch of large blasts which ignore cover via buff commander

 CrownAxe wrote:
Farsight bomb doesn't even work against riptide spam because they will just interceptor you with a bunch of large blasts which ignore cover via buff commander

Because I'm deepstriking. Beautiful reading of the conversation thus far.

Scipio Africanus, if I may?

I think that what you should do is try trading armies with someone at some point for a single game. Switch things up a little. Take the tools that another player has been left with and use the experience to gain a more clear perspective. You will likely find your answer there.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Farsight bomb doesn't even work against riptide spam because they will just interceptor you with a bunch of large blasts which ignore cover via buff commander

Because I'm deepstriking. Beautiful reading of the conversation thus far.

Am I missing some sarcasm here? You're deepstriking so you're going to get fethed up by Interceptor. You know how interceptor works right?

 Nightwolf829 wrote:
Scipio Africanus, if I may?

I think that what you should do is try trading armies with someone at some point for a single game. Switch things up a little. Take the tools that another player has been left with and use the experience to gain a more clear perspective. You will likely find your answer there.

Wonderful, of course. If I could do this in a tournament setting, I most certainly would.

Or, I could come to Dakkadakka.com and ask for the same information. So far I've been called lazy for taking a strong list, (incorrectly) called out on a reference to my signature, I've had my character attacked and from pieceing together information from two or three posters, I've gotten a *rough* idea of what all the fuss is about. I've heard words like O'vesa star thrown around, giving me some indication on what I need to look at to learn more. So far, I have gotten very little but bitching and moaning and "put yourself in my shoes." I'm trying to find out *what your shoes are like*, but all I can be told is you're a prick for taking a farsight bomb. or, walk 72" in my shoes for a game.

Now if someone could, without attacking me for taking a different but just as effective build, tell me what a rough 4-riptide list looks like, and what makes it such a complaintmonger, this thread can be done with.

I know this so far.

Riptides can get ignores cover, which could hurt on a deathstar like mine.
Riptides get a large pie plate, possibly at BS4/5, but much more likely to be BS3 soas to ensure as much ignores cover as possible.
Riptides remove the possibility of Gate of Infinity or Deepstriking.
One Riptide can re-roll failed nova charges, as well as the gets hot dice
Riptides cannot be run from given their immense range
Riptides require 12/13 AP2 wounds to kill, assuming they have stimulant injectors.
Riptides are dirt cheap, at 225 points.
On average, one riptide will get hot per two game turns, not including O'vesa.


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 Zande4 wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 CrownAxe wrote:
Farsight bomb doesn't even work against riptide spam because they will just interceptor you with a bunch of large blasts which ignore cover via buff commander

Because I'm deepstriking. Beautiful reading of the conversation thus far.

Am I missing some sarcasm here? You're deepstriking so you're going to get fethed up by Interceptor. You know how interceptor works right?

I can infiltrate my farsight bomb while taking shadowsun in the tournament I will be next entering.

Troll thread.

It seems pretty obvious to me that this is not a troll thread.

Scipio, if you can understand what people dislike about the Eldar Revenant Titan, your over halfway towards understanding the Riptide. But you make one major mistake - we don't fear riptide spam, we hate it.

Facing a Revenant Titan isn't 'playing 40k', its watching an enormous robot stomp on your dudes for three hours. When someone has put all that time, effort, and cash into making their dudes, and then they take them in for a 'game' and instead find themselves downgraded to mooks in someones elses personal FPS, it can be an unpleasant experience to say the least, even if you win.

Quadtide is just the same thing. You spend three hours watching the other guy's giant robots gak all over your dudes, instead of actually interacting with whats going on and playing an actual game

This is the reality of Quadtide, Screamer Council, and other trash lists for the 90% of players who don't play a Big Three (and arguably crons) army capable of competing on a reasonably even basis with them.

Or at least, my understanding of that reality. I'm sure other people have other problems with it, but thats my personal take on it and it matches the vibe I get from other players who also don't enjoy such lists

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
SO beyond the iffy legality of infilatrating the unit. Even if you can there is no way against a savy player that you will be within 12".

you can infiltrate 18" in sight, and move 6". What's so complicated about that that a savy player can contest it?

I mean, unless it's hammer and anvil, there are very few places to hide. Even if you do hide, I can just assault another riptide to hide on the second turn.

And, I know that Infiltrating based on a character's rule is iffy. But I'm going to make use of it if it's specifically allowed in a tournament.
Some of these tournaments also force my suits to only use one gun on overwatch. So sad.

Because if I put a screen 1" or more in front of my riptides now you are minimum 19" away....pretty easy to avoid your range and shoot turn or two. Then I move 6" away and shoot you , granting me 2 turns minimum of shooting.....really easy. 10 Kroot or so will protect all 3 or 4 riptides

Dakkamite wrote:It seems pretty obvious to me that this is not a troll thread.

Scipio, if you can understand what people dislike about the Eldar Revenant Titan, your over halfway towards understanding the Riptide. But you make one major mistake - we don't fear riptide spam, we hate it.

Facing a Revenant Titan isn't 'playing 40k', its watching an enormous robot stomp on your dudes for three hours. When someone has put all that time, effort, and cash into making their dudes, and then they take them in for a 'game' and instead find themselves downgraded to mooks in someones elses personal FPS, it can be an unpleasant experience to say the least, even if you win.

Quadtide is just the same thing. You spend three hours watching the other guy's giant robots gak all over your dudes, instead of actually interacting with whats going on and playing an actual game

This is the reality of Quadtide, Screamer Council, and other trash lists for the 90% of players who don't play a Big Three (and arguably crons) army capable of competing on a reasonably even basis with them.

Or at least, my understanding of that reality. I'm sure other people have other problems with it, but thats my personal take on it and it matches the vibe I get from other players who also don't enjoy such lists

I think I understand a little better now. Is part of that in the gameplay, though? I mean, I know there are some armies I will absolutely flatten, but if I go in knowing this will happen, I'll do my best to make sure my opponent is having a good time. Even if the tournaments' all about winning, I'll still flatten him, but I'll do it in such a way that he can at least walk away with a smile from the social experience. That's just my way, I guess. I'm not able to have fun unless I can at least let my opponent have a laugh or two.

Breng77 wrote:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Because if I put a screen 1" or more in front of my riptides now you are minimum 19" away....pretty easy to avoid your range and shoot turn or two. Then I move 6" away and shoot you , granting me 2 turns minimum of shooting.....really easy. 10 Kroot or so will protect all 3 or 4 riptides

I'd probably love that, actually. If you've got all 4 riptides together I can assault them on the second turn (If I go first I have a 2+ cover save up.) and hold them in combat for the whole game. Problem solved. (12 S7AP2 shots + 4-8 S8AP1 shots is not that scary an overwatch, even if some of it gets a markerlight or two. )

Until OP plays against a balanced Triptide or O'vesa list, whether he is afraid or not means nothing.

Given that he's being allowed to cheat by the TO, his experience is always going to be of limited value.

Riptides effectively meant that Paladins and the like are now gibbable from across the board. As someone who either went with MAXIMUM SWARM or Monster Mash Tyranids depending on my mood I wasn't too bothered by Riptides for my tyranids, but they made all of my multiwound T4 and/or 2+ save infantry units functionally obsolete against most Tau builds.

The fact that they ignore cover, are jetpack units, soak up bullets, and shoot across the board makes them rather annoying if you don't gut their markerlight support. Honestly, the Tau codex as a whole is a rather soul sucking thing to play against.

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
It's like fighting a crocodile with a 22.

Crocodile are hunted with .22's. Almost exclusively in fact. .22 magnum, but still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh oh, somebody should math hammer the survivability of 4 riptides vs a farsight bomb. I bet it's laughable.

Imnewherewheresthebathroom wrote:

 ThunderFury 2575 wrote:
It's like fighting a crocodile with a 22.

Crocodile are hunted with .22's. Almost exclusively in fact. .22 magnum, but still.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh oh, somebody should math hammer the survivability of 4 riptides vs a farsight bomb. I bet it's laughable.

Laughable for which side?

Okay let's run the math, I'm going to rule in favour of monster hunter working on mixed squads, and assume you aren't deep striking or infiltrating (riptides out of 30" fr turn 1) assuming 1 buff suit 3 missile 3 plasma shadowsun max drones and farsight.

Assuming bs5 no ignores cover
>24" 12 S7 shots everything else out of range 12*(35/36)*(8/9)*(1/6)*(2/3)
1.15 unsaved wound

18"-24" 1.15 from missile then 7*(35/36)*(3/4)*(1/3)*(2/3)= 1.13 wounds or 2.3 total

12"-18" is 2.3 then gun drones and shadowsun I'll assume drones are bs5 for consistency sake.
28*(35/36)*(5/9)*(1/6)*(2/3) = 1.68 shadowsun is 2*(35/36)*(35/36)*(1/3)*(2/3)= .42
Total is 4.4

12 4.4 plus another set of plasma or another 1.13 wounds so ~5.5.

That means that assuming all units are within range at bs5 and monster hunter works you can't even kill a single riptide in the oveastar without exceptional rolls, assuming you have to walk up the board that means you will have sustained losses making the numbers even worse. Whereas likely 3 riptides are rolling ID ignores cover large blasts every turn which are unlikely t scatter with that HUGE footprint.

Overall this just enforces my thoughts on farsight bomb being trash vs riptie spam, either you've never actually played one or you abused the rules are your opponent was a whole other league of "special"

Jakobokaj wrote:
Okay let's run the math, I'm going to rule in favour of monster hunter working on mixed squads, and assume you aren't deep striking or infiltrating (riptides out of 30" fr turn 1) assuming 1 buff suit 3 missile 3 plasma shadowsun max drones and farsight.

Assuming bs5 no ignores cover
>24" 12 S7 shots everything else out of range 12*(35/36)*(8/9)*(1/6)*(2/3)
1.15 unsaved wound

18"-24" 1.15 from missile then 7*(35/36)*(3/4)*(1/3)*(2/3)= 1.13 wounds or 2.3 total

12"-18" is 2.3 then gun drones and shadowsun I'll assume drones are bs5 for consistency sake.
28*(35/36)*(5/9)*(1/6)*(2/3) = 1.68 shadowsun is 2*(35/36)*(35/36)*(1/3)*(2/3)= .42
Total is 4.4

12 4.4 plus another set of plasma or another 1.13 wounds so ~5.5.

That means that assuming all units are within range at bs5 and monster hunter works you can't even kill a single riptide in the oveastar without exceptional rolls, assuming you have to walk up the board that means you will have sustained losses making the numbers even worse. Whereas likely 3 riptides are rolling ID ignores cover large blasts every turn which are unlikely t scatter with that HUGE footprint.

Overall this just enforces my thoughts on farsight bomb being trash vs riptie spam, either you've never actually played one or you abused the rules are your opponent was a whole other league of "special"

Agreed, but why is he walking and not deepstriking? What's the math if he deepstikes in? Then the following qaudtide turn?

 spacewolved wrote:

Agreed, but why is he walking and not deepstriking? What's the math if he deepstikes in? Then the following qaudtide turn?

He's not deep striking because he's infiltrating, iirc. Tournaments in his area rule that infiltrating IC's confer it to the units they join.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 spacewolved wrote:

Agreed, but why is he walking and not deepstriking? What's the math if he deepstikes in? Then the following qaudtide turn?

He's not deep striking because he's infiltrating, iirc. Tournaments in his area rule that infiltrating IC's confer it to the units they join.

That's how it normally works isn't it?

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

That's how it normally works isn't it?

There's debates on it. Tournaments rule one way or another, FLGS groups decided among themselves. One of the things we hope to see in a BRB FAQ.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

That's how it normally works isn't it?

There's debates on it. Tournaments rule one way or another, FLGS groups decided among themselves. One of the things we hope to see in a BRB FAQ.

No there's debates on whether shadowsun can infiltrate a squad, but the second another IC joins it immediately becomes 100% RAW and RAI illegal as stated by the infiltrate rule saying that infiltrate cannot be conferred to an IC by the squad they are in meaning farsight disqualifies infiltrate.

On the point as to why you won't deeps strike if the opponent has 4 riptides three of saidnriptides will almost certainly pack EWO and ion accel, that means your large footprint squad will likely be hit by three large blasts ignoring armour with instant death and hitting lots because all models must be in B2B when deep striking.

This thread is a textbook example of GIFT theory.

AngularDeath wrote:
This thread is a textbook example of GIFT theory.

GIFT theory? Whats that?

Because I usually play Blood Angels...

 Co'tor Shas wrote:

AngularDeath wrote:
This thread is a textbook example of GIFT theory.

GIFT theory? Whats that?

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/GIFT

greyknight12 wrote:you're also playing tau.

Yeah.

It would be like if Iran gets a nuclear weapon and everybody starts freaking out and the president of the United States goes on television and broadcasts to the world "Iran has nuclear weapons? Big deal, we've got thousands of them!"

Multiple Riptides is a Deathwing dream come true....but that's really the only army the Deathwing can deal with.

He says as he sits in the corner and cries himself to sleep

 Watchersinthedark wrote:
Multiple Riptides is a Deathwing dream come true....but that's really the only army the Deathwing can deal with.

He says as he sits in the corner and cries himself to sleep

Really? I thought riptides were good against deathwing.

... yeah. Terminators deepstrike and are immediately hit by multiple Ap2 blast weapons with interceptor fire before they even get to blink. And then they get an absolutely absurd number of armor saves thrown at them by extra-BS S5-7 weapons. Assuming there aren't crisis suits, and you get plasma stormed first.

 Ailaros wrote:
... yeah. Terminators deepstrike and are immediately hit by multiple Ap2 blast weapons with interceptor fire before they even get to blink. And then they get an absolutely absurd number of armor saves thrown at them by extra-BS S5-7 weapons. Assuming there aren't crisis suits, and you get plasma stormed first.

Hell, even the sniper rounds from Kroot start being rather dangerous. I'm with Ailaros, I don't see that working very well at all.

 Barnie25 wrote:
How would 3 Wraithknights fair against 3 Riptides?

Quite Well surprisingly if you can maneuver them well enough. Distort is a bitch to deal with but funny as hell to watch things disappear

Just gotta deepstrike 4 GUO with the balesword all up around those riptides. Also 3 flying nurlge DPs with baleswords. One scratch and you have a dead riptide, wraithknight or dreadknight.