I'm convinced that Nid lists like this just dont work, I feel like its a requirement to have Mawlocs and Trygons, as well as outflankers because we are just so slow now. That list seemed suicidal and it was.
WOW! Okay Jim. You might not actually have won! But damn you should have. And you managed that without Catalyst! Granted it wasn't what some folks would call a "traditional game" and no doubt we're gonna get some whingers saying "that's wasn't a proper game, it proves nothing".
But me? I'm about 70% there. I only need to see a little bit more before I start putting cash down on a Nid army
@ Iechine: Yes, but this game is a perfect example of how a good player with a bit of savvy can win a game by playing to the missions even with a not very optimised list. Imagine what he could have done with some tunnelers but bear in mind that Mawlocs and Trygons are heavy support choices. In this particular case, bringing those to the table might have cost JY2 the game regardless by giving away points. Then again, the might have captured a few objectives for him but I doubt they would have survived.
I was actually surprised the game came as close as it did. I thought it was going to be an easy win for Tau.
Really though it didn't look that fun though. The nids had a huge disadvantage in that table and were just completely outranged. Every turn broke down to 1.) Tau shoot or 2.) Nids hide.
@ Savage Convoy: Maybe not fun for everyone. But it's the nail bitingly tactical games that are the most interesting and immersive for me. Granted they're not always as fun to watch as a game where dozens of minis are lifted of the table every turn, but they're fun for the people playing them.
Personally, I thought that was a classy bat-rep. I learned more from watching that particular battle-rep than I have from any one of a half-dozen slaughter-fest bat reps.
Very well played, guys. Too bad about that last roll!
The bugs are viable. They're just going to be one of those armies where a few mistakes have the potential to make it really hard to pull back that win.
This is an example of why I believe winning in 40k is far more reliant on the player than it is with list hammering. Well played Jim I was really rooting for you to pull this one out so that Jeff and Frankie can endlessly torment Reece by never letting him live that down. Excellent batrep I really enjoyed this one!
About my list: Originally, I was thinking about bringing a super-optimized Tyranid spam list. However, I finally decided to bring just a balanced and fast Tyranid list. This was mainly because of 2 main reasons:
1. I only wanted to play with the models that I had. I didn't want to proxy models that I didn't have. A super-optimized list would have required me to bring a lot of models that I didn't own.
2. I really didn't want this to be a battle between just the lists. Well, it is a battle between lists, but it is more a battle between the synergies of the list rather than the units themselves. More importantly, this is a battle between the generals. If I can win this battle, it's going to mainly be from the synergies of the list and my skills as a tactician rather than just running a list "that plays itself". Basically, it's going to take a lot of skill to make this list work, especially against Tau, and I was going to enjoy the challenge.
So now why raveners and gargoyles? We've discussed in depth how much better carnifexes and biovores were and how good the Heavy Support slots were, so why didn't I just fill up my Heavies with as many units there as possible? The answer is that I wanted a very fast army with some resiliency as well. That's why I went more heavy with the Fast Attack units. Raveners and gargoyles - especially the raveners - are really fast. They both complement my flyrants very well IMO. They also form a hammer and anvil combination. Gargoyles are the anvil and will help lock up units. The raveners are the hammer unit. They are the unit that will come in and wreck sh*t. In addition, you're talking about 44 wounds between the 2 units. With cover and if only I could have gotten Catalyst, they can actually be quite resilient.
They also help me with my strategy of Positional Dominance. Because of their speed, I use them (and the flyrants) to control my opponent's movements. Basically, I use them to keep my opponent off of the objectives so that I can get onto them. This gives me an inherent advantage, even if slightly, in that I already have the objectives and my opponent will have to be the one to have to shift me off of them. Thus, I actually don't have to play as aggressively as I normally do. Against an ultra-shooty army like Tau, I can actually sit back and dare him to come towards me. And if he does, I have the fast units that can make him pay, both with assault and with my shooting.
Pre-game Analysis: This is going to be even more of an uphill battle than I had thought. Why?
1. No Catalyst. Against super-shooty armies like Tau or mechdar, you need Catalyst. It's what will give you a chance against them, because you're not going to be getting cover. With 2 flyrants and 2 other psykers, I actually had a very good chance to get at least 1 Catalyst. Well, I didn't.
2. Hammer & Anvil. Against a shooty army, this is perhaps the the worst deployment type for me. Although I had a fast army, I had nothing that can get really deep into my opponent's deployment zone. No trygons or mawlocs to deploy into his backfield to force him to deal with. No other flyers except for my flyrants. Thus, if I had advance, most likely my bugs are going to get shot down. Flyers don't mean that much to my opponent's army, not with all the twin-linking, skyfire and markerlights he had in his army.
3. My opponent was going 1st. That means he will get the alpha-strike.
4. Anti-air. His anti-air shooting was just too good. Both riptides have skyfire, he's got a quad-guns and almost all his shooters will be twin-linked. Commander will twin-link 1 riptide. Farseer will guide/prescience the other riptide and wraithknight. Broadsides themselves are already twin-linked. Then he's got the pathfinders which can help to increase the BS of his shapshots. Without Catalyst, my flyrants wouldn't even last 1 turn out in the open. Heck, he actually have the firepower to take out both flyrants in just 1 turn of shooting.
5. My list is balanced, but it isn't particularly optimized. Then again, I prefered to go with what I've got as opposed to what I really wanted.
However, it is not all doom & gloom. Despite a big mountain to climb, I have a few advantages:
1. Good terrain. Terrain was favorable to tyranids, though most of the terrain was quite far away from my opponent. The game would probably not even been this close if not for the central LOS-blocking terrain.
2. I'm going 2nd. I have the final say with regards to the objectives.
3. I'm hoping Reece will under-estimate my tyranids. I think I can surprise him with my gameplay. That sometimes happens when one person thinks that there is too big a rift between 2 armies. I know I've done it before also, under-estimating my opponent because I thought it would be an easy win and then losing because either he out-played me or because of a few bad rolls.
4. Synapse. It's not as big a crutch as most would think, especially if you do it right. So far in all my games that I've played, I've had no problems with Synapse. That is also why the bastion is sooooo good. 1 zoanthrope either inside or behind the bastion is all you really need.
So my prediction is that it will be an extremely tough battle for my bugs. This may even be tougher than Tyranids vs Venom-spam of yesterday's Tyranids, but it is still a winnable game for me. Now I won't guarantee a win for my bugs, but I will guarantee you that I will give my opponent, no matter who he is or what army he is running, a competitive game.
Coming up later.....Analysis of the Game and my Strategy.
I'm convinced that Nid lists like this just dont work, I feel like its a requirement to have Mawlocs and Trygons, as well as outflankers because we are just so slow now. That list seemed suicidal and it was.
My list is still a Work-in-progress. At this stage, it is more experimental than anything else and I will be evolving it over time. I will most likely be using mawlocs, trygons and probably outflankers as well in future games.
WOW! Okay Jim. You might not actually have won! But damn you should have. And you managed that without Catalyst! Granted it wasn't what some folks would call a "traditional game" and no doubt we're gonna get some whingers saying "that's wasn't a proper game, it proves nothing".
But me? I'm about 70% there. I only need to see a little bit more before I start putting cash down on a Nid army
@ Iechine: Yes, but this game is a perfect example of how a good player with a bit of savvy can win a game by playing to the missions even with a not very optimised list. Imagine what he could have done with some tunnelers but bear in mind that Mawlocs and Trygons are heavy support choices. In this particular case, bringing those to the table might have cost JY2 the game regardless by giving away points. Then again, the might have captured a few objectives for him but I doubt they would have survived.
Edited to put comments in spoiler field.
It was a very tough game for my bugs with some very strong handicaps against them. But what I really like about this game was that tactics was actually a much bigger part of the game than the list. It was probably 66% strategy and only 33% list, which made it all the more challenging. And despite the result, I came out of this game very satisfied with the performance of my bugs (I'm sure Reece felt the same way as well). A 1/3 chance to win in the end due to a calculated strategy on my part is a million times better and my chances of winning in a head-on battle against the likes of Taudar under the conditions that I was forced to play in.
Savageconvoy wrote: I was actually surprised the game came as close as it did. I thought it was going to be an easy win for Tau.
Really though it didn't look that fun though. The nids had a huge disadvantage in that table and were just completely outranged. Every turn broke down to 1.) Tau shoot or 2.) Nids hide.
Well, this game I was actually playing for the win and not for the cinematic glory. I can see how this would appear boring to many, but if you study it a little more closely, there were a lot of tactical nuances to the game that both Reece and I played that actually made it as tense as a cat-&-mouse game, at least to us.
Despite the relative "inaction" of the game, it was actually quite a tense game for the both of us.
LeadLegion wrote: @ Savage Convoy: Maybe not fun for everyone. But it's the nail bitingly tactical games that are the most interesting and immersive for me. Granted they're not always as fun to watch as a game where dozens of minis are lifted of the table every turn, but they're fun for the people playing them.
Personally, I thought that was a classy bat-rep. I learned more from watching that particular battle-rep than I have from any one of a half-dozen slaughter-fest bat reps.
Edited twice for spelling.
Thanks, and very well said. It was more of a psychological game between Reece and I, which actually made it very tense and exciting to us.
SBG wrote: Very well played, guys. Too bad about that last roll!
The bugs are viable. They're just going to be one of those armies where a few mistakes have the potential to make it really hard to pull back that win.
Loving all these Tyranid batreps!
They remind me a lot about 3rd Edition Daemonhunters (the edition before the current Grey Knights). It was a very challenging army to play. It was also much less forgiving than most of the other armies, but man, it was just so much more rewarding when you can win with them than when you win with, say, Tau, Eldar, Necrons or any of the other really good (and easier-to-play) armies.
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McNinja wrote: Man. Just seeing what taudar can bring at 1750 is enough to make me question if jy2 can win.
Alas, he pulled it off!
I didn't actually win, but I did score a moral victory in Reece's eyes.
y0disisray wrote: This is an example of why I believe winning in 40k is far more reliant on the player than it is with list hammering. Well played Jim I was really rooting for you to pull this one out so that Jeff and Frankie can endlessly torment Reece by never letting him live that down. Excellent batrep I really enjoyed this one!
I think I could have won much more easily if Reece were playing anything other than Taudar....but I didn't really want the boxed sets. I wanted to take his lunch money instead.
LeadLegion wrote: Thanks Jy2. Really appreciate your adding your usual thoughts and analysis to this report.
My pleasure!
Blackmoor wrote: This game was not even close. JY2 played as good of a game that he could, and Reese was caught napping and that is what made it seem close.
That being said I am thinking about coming up next weekend to get my $100,
I need to see if I can borrow some models though,
Don't under-estimate my play. I did the best that I could in what were some really adverse conditions for me. My strategy to play for Turn 5 wasn't a coincidence. Rather, it was actually a calculated strategy on my part. A 1/3 chance to win it on Turn 5 is a million times better than a suicidal attempt to take on his army head-on. Thus, I wasn’t kidding when I said I was playing for Turn 5. It was a gamble, but it was also my best chance at winning in what would have been an otherwise lopsided game in favor of Taudar.
Blackmoor wrote: This game was not even close. JY2 played as good of a game that he could, and Reese was caught napping and that is what made it seem close.
That being said I am thinking about coming up next weekend to get my $100,
I need to see if I can borrow some models though,
Don't under-estimate my play. I did the best that I could in what were some really adverse conditions for me. My strategy to play for Turn 5 wasn't a coincidence. Rather, it was actually a calculated strategy on my part. A 1/3 chance to win it on Turn 5 is a million times better than a suicidal attempt to take on his army head-on. Thus, I wasn’t kidding when I said I was playing for Turn 5. It was a gamble, but it was also my best chance at winning in what would have been an otherwise lopsided game in favor of Taudar.
I did not underestimate your play. When faced with an overwhelming amount of firepower you have to play the mission. You did as best as you could with what you had, and what you were up against.
I am thinking about taking Tyraninds to the LVO because I do not want to be another Eldar douche-bag, and I am not taking it too seriously. I am there to have some fun and hang out.
Seemed like the Carnifexes didn't do much but get shot (one killed a few jetbikes, I think). That was a little discouraging. In this kind of list, would you take 2 Mawlocs instead next time, or will you sick with the Fexes?
BTW, I didn't know that you had a bug army. You can borrow units from Reece's army to challenge him with them.
Yup I do. I even won the Golden Gargant with it up at Kubla Con around 2006 when it was a 2 day GT.
I have not played it since early 4th edition and have been meaning to sell it but I have never gotten around to it. I am missing the models that have come out in 5th edition and 6th (think Hive Guard, Tervigons and Tyrgons) so it needs updating.
Jim played that mission the best he could have, but it really is telling that it took Reece "napping" and second turn and he STILL only had a 1/3 chance to win.
Again, not undermining your play jy2 but just illustrating how much of a disparity there really is between the two.
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y0disisray wrote: This is an example of why I believe winning in 40k is far more reliant on the player than it is with list hammering. Well played Jim I was really rooting for you to pull this one out so that Jeff and Frankie can endlessly torment Reece by never letting him live that down. Excellent batrep I really enjoyed this one!
Yes and no. The better player lost here. Being the better player with an optimized list from a different yet sadly brand new army and all your looking at is a 33% chance on turn 5 or definite defeat? Props to jim for getting as much luster outta that turd as he did but this is just telling of the state of 40k currently.
"My list is still a Work-in-progress. At this stage, it is more experimental than anything else and I will be evolving it over time. I will most likely be using mawlocs, trygons and probably outflankers as well in future games."
I think outflanking could make a big difference in this type of deployment—it will give you some disruption units to take the heat off the rest of your army and buy some time to move in to key positions... Just need the right balance.
Great job playing to the mission. I have a question: Ever thought about dumping one of your Flyrants? I know they are the best unit in the codex, but you could use the points for more ranged Heavy supports like a mawloc, exocrine, or a tyrannofex. And you could fit another Zoanthrope.
The Ravagers seemed disappointing. What about shrikes instead?
Dozer Blades wrote: "My list is still a Work-in-progress. At this stage, it is more experimental than anything else and I will be evolving it over time. I will most likely be using mawlocs, trygons and probably outflankers as well in future games."
I think outflanking could make a big difference in this type of deployment—it will give you some disruption units to take the heat off the rest of your army and buy some time to move in to key positions... Just need the right balance.
Very well played!
Totally agreed, this game really opened my eyes to the need for some disruption units like that. And I do think the raveners weren't worth it here. Very helpful to see this all in action.
Well played JY2 but I have to say i was not a fan of the Taudar build. I think it would be a worse match-up against Eldau. That middle piece of terrain was huge for keeping you alive. I originally questioned you leaving the board with your big guys. Well played though and some decent luck to make it as close as you did.
Jy2, why go for the Relic turn 5? I feel like it would have been better as a turn 6 gamble and would've kept the Tervigon safe. Instead of playing for a major turn 5 win, you'd be playing for a minor turn 5 win and the chance to get a turn 6 win if you could kill a riptide and grab the relic, or cause a FW squad to fall back with the Biovores. I just think the game couldve gone another turn, even if Taudar had a major advantage at that point.
I think this game really highlights the shortcomings of Tyranids in terms of a total lack of ranged firepower and a lack of speed/resiliency. I understand Nids are not supposed to be a shooty army like Tau but you can only do so much when you face the proposition of just removing buckets of your army due to decent quantities of cover ignoring firepower.
When Tyranids are forced to withstand what Tau and Eldar can dish out, the Hivemind might as well go back home and watch "As the imperium turns" on daytime TV...
I think the only way to do it is have enough units that pose an immediate treat like maybe 40 infiltrating stealers followed by fasting units like gargoyles/shrikes/flyrants and a continual stream of things to drown your opponent in wounds... Though, like I said, I think Tau and Eldar have the firepower to do enough damage each turn to destroy the Nids :(.
If the "ignores cover" rule wasn't so prevalent in 40kATM the nid codex would be fine IMO (aside from some minor issues but meh).
This is the reason that I like 40k. Friends competing hard against each other and a victor emerging who acknowledges a lucky win. One of the more exciting reports I've seen for how little happened.
Great game and great advert for what Los blocking terrain brings to the game. The problem is unless tournaments are clear upfront about what you can expect from their terrain taking nids is a risk against the big hitters imo.
I agree, I'd like to see a best of three games type thing if not more so we can get a real feel or picture on how the match up is.
And for the purposes of experimentation, perhaps if we do have a rematch, we play with Dawn of War deployment just to contrast how the different deployment types would affect the outcome of the game.
But if anything like that ever happens, a rematch, that is, it'll probably have to wait until after the LVO. I'm sure Reece is already super-busy. Also, now I've got to start preparing for the tournament itself!
Seemed like the Carnifexes didn't do much but get shot (one killed a few jetbikes, I think). That was a little discouraging. In this kind of list, would you take 2 Mawlocs instead next time, or will you sick with the Fexes?
Although it seemed as if the fexes didn't do much, they still had a purpose in this game, and that was to guard the middle. Come anywhere close to there and feel the wrath of my carnies.
But I will be using mawlocs in the future for the sake of experimentation. For now, you're going to see me rotate a lot of units into the army. With the exception of my "Base 5" core units, each Tyranid army I play will probably be vastly different from the last.
BTW, I didn't know that you had a bug army. You can borrow units from Reece's army to challenge him with them.
Yup I do. I even won the Golden Gargant with it up at Kubla Con around 2006 when it was a 2 day GT.
I have not played it since early 4th edition and have been meaning to sell it but I have never gotten around to it. I am missing the models that have come out in 5th edition and 6th (think Hive Guard, Tervigons and Tyrgons) so it needs updating.
Ah, so you played in the Golden age of Nidzilla? Back when dakkafexes were only 114-pts and you could run carnifexes with 2+ T7 5W and flyrants could also get 2+ saves? My, how things have changed ever since.
Red Corsair wrote: Jim played that mission the best he could have, but it really is telling that it took Reece "napping" and second turn and he STILL only had a 1/3 chance to win.
Again, not undermining your play jy2 but just illustrating how much of a disparity there really is between the two.
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y0disisray wrote: This is an example of why I believe winning in 40k is far more reliant on the player than it is with list hammering. Well played Jim I was really rooting for you to pull this one out so that Jeff and Frankie can endlessly torment Reece by never letting him live that down. Excellent batrep I really enjoyed this one!
Yes and no. The better player lost here. Being the better player with an optimized list from a different yet sadly brand new army and all your looking at is a 33% chance on turn 5 or definite defeat? Props to jim for getting as much luster outta that turd as he did but this is just telling of the state of 40k currently.
It really is a bad matchup between bugs and Tau. Honestly, I think this matchup is even worse than the 5th Ed. Tyranids vs Venom-spam. Tau just neutralizes so many of the Tyranid strengths. Flying monsters? Tau is without a doubt perhaps the 2nd best army against flyers (Necron Airforce is #1). Relying on cover from your venomthrope? Not against Tau, you're not. Bringing big monsters? Volume of S7 shooting and Monster Hunter will take care of them and if not, then your army is still stubborn so can screen them out, thus allowing you to shoot some more, or just jump away with your suits. Against Tau, tyranids need every advantage they can get. The deployment type really did me no favors and not getting Catalyst really hurts as well.
Sadly but true, that is how the game has become for many armies against Tau (or Eldar). They (tau/eldar) are just a bad matchup for most armies. Only other armies with just-as-broken mechanics (fast daemons with re-rollable 2++ units, necrons with their troops in flyers, White Scars scouting alpha-strike bikers) can truly compete with Tau and Eldar. Most other armies just cannot. That is just the way it is currently. So yeah, I agree that there definitely is a disparity between armies.
But it isn't all bad. Play with Dawn of War deployment with a central BLOS terrain. Give bugs a few good powers (i.e. a couple of Catalysts) and I guarantee you that they can even give the top-tier armies a challenging game.
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Dozer Blades wrote: "My list is still a Work-in-progress. At this stage, it is more experimental than anything else and I will be evolving it over time. I will most likely be using mawlocs, trygons and probably outflankers as well in future games."
I think outflanking could make a big difference in this type of deployment—it will give you some disruption units to take the heat off the rest of your army and buy some time to move in to key positions... Just need the right balance.
Very well played!
It sure could. I call my list the fast Tyranid army. The army that you are talking about - the "Disruption" Tyranid army with outflankers, mawlocs deepstriking and flyrants/FMC's closing in for the kill - may just be it's most competitive. Now that is a true Maximum Threat Overload list. I just don't really have the models to run that type of list currently, but make no mistake, that type of Tyranid army means serious business.
Great job playing to the mission. I have a question: Ever thought about dumping one of your Flyrants? I know they are the best unit in the codex, but you could use the points for more ranged Heavy supports like a mawloc, exocrine, or a tyrannofex. And you could fit another Zoanthrope.
The Ravagers seemed disappointing. What about shrikes instead?
Thanks again for all this experimentation.
Sure, I've thought about swapping out 1 flyrant, but that is more for experimental purposes more than anything else. I already know that for a competitive Tyranid army, there really is no other option. Flyrants are a necessity for both their mobility as well as their flexibility to handle any and all types of armies and threats.
The raveners actually did really good in my first game against Triptide Tau. I ran 2x6 and they were responsible for a grea deal of carnage. To me, there is no question that raveners are much, much better than shrikes, especially when I run dual flyrants for my forwards synapse.
But in this game, it was just an impossible situation for them. You are asking them to run fowards and to bear the entire firepower of the Tau army without cover or FNP. No unit, not shrikes nor raveners, would survive that unless I throw everything at them all at once. And if we were playing Dawn of War deployment, I probably would, but in Hammer & Anvil deployment, it would be tantamount to suicide.
Tomb King wrote: Well played JY2 but I have to say i was not a fan of the Taudar build. I think it would be a worse match-up against Eldau. That middle piece of terrain was huge for keeping you alive. I originally questioned you leaving the board with your big guys. Well played though and some decent luck to make it as close as you did.
Yeah, the goal was to keep my flyrants alive. Leaving the board was what I felt was the best tactic for them. With the dakkafexes holding the middle, I was pretty sure that my opponent wouldn't dare come close so I had the luxury of flying them (the flyrants) off the table.
Taudar and Eldar would both have been tough matchups for bugs. I don't really see one as worse than the other. Both are pretty bad.
jifel wrote: Jy2, why go for the Relic turn 5? I feel like it would have been better as a turn 6 gamble and would've kept the Tervigon safe. Instead of playing for a major turn 5 win, you'd be playing for a minor turn 5 win and the chance to get a turn 6 win if you could kill a riptide and grab the relic, or cause a FW squad to fall back with the Biovores. I just think the game couldve gone another turn, even if Taudar had a major advantage at that point.
Edit: Riptides aren't heavy, ignore that part.
Because the game may have ended on 5. If I had waited and the game ended, then I would be kicking myself. You only wait if the chances of you losing on 5 is low, but the chances of me losing on 5 was practically guaranteed because Reece had First Blood and +1 VP for killing my dakkafexes as well.
Its hard to comment on bits and pieces of the action, but it looks like a bit of a strategy fail. First going for only a 1 in 3 chance to win, but more important, there is zero pressure on the Tau. Partially a function of the army list, but also over conservative play.
Also, you completely gave away your strategy in turn 4. You should have simply ended your turn by saying Reece was doing well, rather than explain that you were waiting for 5 to try to win it all
Agreed. Felt like Reece wasn't being aggressive enough, seems he fell into the "deer in the headlights" a lot of people get with hordes and nids in general.
The Zoan and Vemon in the bastion is very smart. I wouldn't be surprised if that became a staple for nid players.
Fragile wrote: Its hard to comment on bits and pieces of the action, but it looks like a bit of a strategy fail. First going for only a 1 in 3 chance to win, but more important, there is zero pressure on the Tau. Partially a function of the army list, but also over conservative play.
Also, you completely gave away your strategy in turn 4. You should have simply ended your turn by saying Reece was doing well, rather than explain that you were waiting for 5 to try to win it all
Hammer and Anvil is a tough set up for Jim to go up against this TauDar army. What he did was the best he could with what he had. Had he just bum rushed the TauDar the big bugs would get dropped easily while they fell back keeping away from the Nids. After that everything that requires synapse would start breaking and causing all kind of problems. Had it been any of the other stable set ups he could've had more to work with.
Agreed. Felt like Reece wasn't being aggressive enough, seems he fell into the "deer in the headlights" a lot of people get with hordes and nids in general.
The Zoan and Vemon in the bastion is very smart. I wouldn't be surprised if that became a staple for nid players.
I'm holding off on that tactic until after the FAQs.
jajaja "Minimun Threat Underfrozen" that was a getto list.... playing for the 5th ending turn is normally a desperate option onces everything have failed and you have to save the day somehow. But running it as your main pregame start is not an option.
Anyway good match... im looking forward seen you playing a real good list, lets hope it will happen soon.
Flyrants, Tervigons, Harpies, Venonthropes, Zoamthorpes, Termagaunts, Mawlocs And Biovores are our main strength. Complete and minmax them with biomorphs and weapons to make them more flexible.
Basically you must be able to deal a lot of preasure from first turn so no1 ever think on turtling agains you..... many have been wrote about 9 fexes list ... but I havent heard of any1 talking about 9 biovores..... No cover saves and hard pressing from turn 1.
Wanna give it a try?
There is nothing wrong playing for the game to end on turn 5. Like jy2 said sometimes that is your best odds. Taudar has been around a long time now and is fully distilled. Tyranids are fresh and need some time to fully flesh out. I think they will be competitive. Except for Nidzlilla it's not like they were ever all that popular. I see a lot of potential.
Warning: Spoilers included. Please don't read until after you've viewed the videorep.
Spoiler:
While it may not seem like it, there was actually a lot of strategy involved in this game. There was the overall strategy and then there were a lot of smaller, tactical nuances that defined the game. I shall break down both the larger strategy and some of the smaller, less obvious tactics as well.
Reece's Overall Strategy: What Reece wanted to do was to make me come to him. He wanted me to go all out against him. Hammer & Anvil deployment made this strategy almost a no-brainer. If I advance towards him, he'd get 1 turn of shooting against my flyrants and most likely 2 turns of shooting against any of my other units. That was why he deployed way back - to be able to maximize his shooting.
SMS. Reece took advantage of a huge tactical blunder on my part. I made a huge deployment mistake with my venomthrope. I was thinking that if I deployed it inside the bastion, then Reece could fire his wraithknight at it in order to blow it up. Thus, I deployed my venomthrope outside of it, with the intent of entering it on my Turn 1. However, I had totally forgotten about Ripple-fire SMS from his riptides. Well, 8 TL-cover ignoring shots later and Reece got First Blood from my venomthrope. SMS played a huge role in this battle, letting him kill/hurt stuff that he couldn't see.
The Bait. This was actually a very good tactic, and most lesser-experienced players would fall for it. Basically, he deployed his jetbikes forwards as well as 1 unit of fire warriors to try to bait my flyrants with First Blood as well as a troop choice. Basically, if I had sent my flyrants out to take out his troops, I would most likely have lost them. Overall, the trade-off would have heavily favored Taudar.
Grabbing the Relic. He wanted to get the Relic away from me. As long as it was there, I could have grabbed it at any time. More importantly, I could have grabbed it with my tervgion and then dropped it behind the BLOS terrain (due to the large base
that my tervigon was on) where it would have been impossible for Reece to get it. This was the main reason why he had chosen to go 1st.
What he did was actually quite brilliant. He picked up the Relic with his jetbikes. Then, instead of bringing them backwards, he actually moved them forwards into the ruins. This had the advantage of 1) protecting them from my biovores, who would only hit the top level of ruins with their barrages, 2) protect him from assault, as I cannot assault what I could not see and I can't pass through the ruins because he is blocking them off and 3) he was still trying to bait my flyrants.
Then on his Turn 2, he moved his bikers back and dropped the Relic out in the open. This way, he could shoot down whatever unit tried to pick it up. Meanwhile, he moved his jetbikes back to the safety of his deployment edge.
Monsters to the flanks. He deployed his MC's - the riptides and wraithknights - to the flanks in order to have the best lanes of fire for them and also to minimize the places where I could hide. Now here I would have played it a little differently from Reece. Whereas he normally tended to push his MC's back with the JSJ (jump-shoot-jump) move, I would have actually pushed them forwards instead. This would have 1) given me even less places to hide as his visibility increases the closer he gets and 2) forced me to send a unit towards them, thus providing the rest of his army with some targets to shoot down.
Protecting his objectives on Turn 5. This is where I almost got him. He was thinking that he had the advantage when he killed my carnifexes due to them being a Heavy Support. So if we both end the game with 2 objectives apiece, he would still the the Primary, Big Guns, because he would have been 1-up on me with the carnifex VP. He didn't see until it was almost too late what my tactic was going to be, but he was able to recover on Turn 5 due to 2 huge jump moves (he got an 11" jump move for both his missile drones and the Commander with Iontide). He was then able to block me off from contesting. In addition, he was able to put 3 scoring units - broadside missile drones, fire warriors and windrider jetbike - on that one objective that I would go after. So in order for me to pull off the upset, I had to actually get rid of all 3 scoring units on that objective...that was no easy feat!
Jy2's Overall Strategy: My overall strategy was to gamble for the Turn 5 win. Even a 1/3 chance to win on Turn 5 was better than a head-on battle with Reece's Taudar in Hammer & Anvil deployment and with no Catalyst in my army. Yeah, it was a bad situation and a desperate win, but overall, I felt that it was actually my best chance for a victory.
Positional Dominance. This is my philosophy on how to play objectives-based games. You have to play a little more aggressively and advance onto the objectives first, while keeping your opponent either too pre-occupied to move towards the objectives or somehow keep them away from the objectives. Basically, Positional Dominance is all about board control. Control where your forces will be. Control where you want your opponent to be relative to the objectives or your army. If you can take control, then you have the advantage. You will already be on the objectives whereas your opponent will have to fight to get onto his objectives. Meanwhile, your "forward" elements will be trying to contest his objectives/kill off his troops while your troops are somewhat safe. In short, if you do it properly, it will be his game to lose and your game to win.
For my strategy to work, I needed to do a few things:
Control the middle. Advance towards the middle. Hide and wait. If anything gets close, go after it and kill it. I've got 2 dakkafexes, the raveners, gargoyles and 2 flyrants. I think I should be able to hold the middle quite well. With a threat radius of up to 18-24" with both shooting and assault, holding the middle means that I am actually controlling maybe about 75% of the board. I've actually got the mobility advantage against my opponent and by controlling the majority of the board, it would be easier for me to contest his objectives in the end than it would be for him to contest mine.
Keep him in his deployment zone. Why is this important? Because if he advances, then I would lose the advantage of being able to control the middle. If he advances....if he played a little more aggressively....then he would have forced me to come out of "hiding" much earlier, thus exposing myself to the firepower of his entire army. And if I hadn't, then his MC's would have had a better lane of fire into my forces. So how do I keep him from advancing, especially along the flanks? By feeding him threatening units to keep him honest. If you'd notice, on Turn 1, I advance my raveners and gargoyles. Then on Turn 2, I pulled back my raveners and advance my gargoyles. Then on Turn 3, I advance my raveners again. On Turn 4, I finally advance my dakkafex. Finally on Turn 5, I went all out. If you hadn't noticed, each turn, I was slowly feeding my opponent 1 unit at a time. This was to serve 2 purposes - 1) to keep his units back and 2) to serve as a distraction as well as to draw his firepower. Better for him to shoot at units that I want him to shoot at rather than at units that I don't want him to shoot at. I was also hoping that by feeding him 1 unit at a time, it would mask my true intentions as well as to instill in him a sense of over-confidence...that he could do whatever he wanted to against my army. But the reality of it was, I was trying my best to control the situation by letting him kill what I wanted him to kill and to keep him out of "my territory".
Kill off his mobility. Another main part of my strategy was to kill off his mobility and to take away his ability to contest. Fortunately, for me, Reece only had 2 real units with mobility - his jetbike troops and his farseer so this was actually much easier to do than some of the other armies I've had to face. BTW, it was smart of Reece to turbo-boost his jetbikes back into his deployment zone on Turn 2. If he hadn't of done that, what I would have done was to vector-strike his jetbikes and then fly off the board at the same time. This way, I would have achieved my goal of killing his mobility (as well as 1 scoring unit) and denying him his retaliation against my units as well.
Contest at all costs! Actually, Reece finally realized what I was doing on Turn 4 and made a great recovery on Turn 5 to protect his objective. He actually had it protected in layers, with 3 scoring units on it. He completely ignored the Relic (not that he could get it this turn....his jetbike was still 2-3" away after I shot at them and killed 2 bikers the previous turn with my dakkafex) and just moved everyone to protect the objective. He also got a little lucky with an 11" assault move by his missile drones to then be able to reach his objective. In any case, contesting was now out of the question with all those troops screening it off.
So my only choice was to kill anyone who was claiming the objective. First of all, I moved my tervigon up and then spawned some gants to go grab the Relic. I then did something that Reece just wasn't expecting. He was expecting me to vector-strike his lone biker and then to shoot at one of his units. Instead, I cast Psychic Shriek and then shot at one of his units. Psychic Shriek came through for me big time. It killed his lone biker and also wiped out all but 1 fire warrior. It also killed a couple of missile drones as well. I even had a chance to take out his riptide, who had only 1 or 2 Wounds left, but Reece past that morale test. Then my newly spawned gants on the Relic shot down his last fire warrior. Finally, my biovores fired at his missile-drones and killed 2....and that was just enough to take them out of claiming range. So while I failed to contest his objective, I did something else that was just as effective....I took out all his scoring units around the objective.
Just beat a tau list with my nids at 1850... even got seized on. Wasnt easy though... had only 1 synapse creature left in the end of it. I killed off all of his troops. Was hammer and anvil relic. 7-1 Nid victory. Still no good solution for buff commander + riptide.
So cheeky! That was pretty exciting, even though the turns had little visible action. The battle was like Jim described it in an earlier post, a lot of subtle strategy that is easily overlooked. A shame that it all came down to 1D6, although it did make the finish entertaining!
One is worse then the other because from my experience tyranids still have a serious issue with mech!
Mech isn't as bad as most would think for Tyranids.
However, the problem against Eldau is the firepower. Those serpents put out a lot of dakka that will give bugs problems, especially if they are spammed. So the problem isn't so much taking out the tanks as it is having to traverse the field and take it in the chin for 1 or maybe 2 rounds of shooting from their tanks.
On the bright side, at least they don't have skyfire.
mortetvie wrote: I think this game really highlights the shortcomings of Tyranids in terms of a total lack of ranged firepower and a lack of speed/resiliency. I understand Nids are not supposed to be a shooty army like Tau but you can only do so much when you face the proposition of just removing buckets of your army due to decent quantities of cover ignoring firepower.
When Tyranids are forced to withstand what Tau and Eldar can dish out, the Hivemind might as well go back home and watch "As the imperium turns" on daytime TV...
I think the only way to do it is have enough units that pose an immediate treat like maybe 40 infiltrating stealers followed by fasting units like gargoyles/shrikes/flyrants and a continual stream of things to drown your opponent in wounds... Though, like I said, I think Tau and Eldar have the firepower to do enough damage each turn to destroy the Nids :(.
If the "ignores cover" rule wasn't so prevalent in 40kATM the nid codex would be fine IMO (aside from some minor issues but meh).
IMO, they do lack ranged firepower. They have speed in spades (at least my build does). However, against Tau, the main problem is that they lack resiliency. That is why Catalyst is such an important power for them. If only they'd make Catalyst the Primaris (but have it affect only 1 unit), Tyranids would have been much, much better off. But alas, sigh.....
The best way for bugs to deal with Tau and some builds of Eldar would be a Maximum Threat Overload strategy. That build will give them problems and it is something I will try out in the future. But first, I need to get myself 3 tyranid flyers....
ansacs wrote: That was an extremely well played game. You really deserved that 1 or 2 Jy2.
Thanks to both of you for a very nice tactical game. Definitely worth watching.
Reece sorry to say I was definitely hoping Jy2 would come out 100 usd richer.
Jy2 how much do you think your more optimized list would have helped in this match?
I think a more optimized list could definitely give Reece's Tau a run for their money. Such a list could potentially put 7-8 very fast TMC's right at his doorsteps on Turn 2! And in the process, they'll probably take out some broadsides as well.
doktor_g wrote: This is the reason that I like 40k. Friends competing hard against each other and a victor emerging who acknowledges a lucky win. One of the more exciting reports I've seen for how little happened.
You can sum it up as "Hubris vs Cunning"
Really enjoyed it. Thanks both. See you in Vegas.
Thanks!
Be sure to introduce yourself if you see me. Always cool to put a face to the internet persona.
djn wrote: Great game and great advert for what Los blocking terrain brings to the game. The problem is unless tournaments are clear upfront about what you can expect from their terrain taking nids is a risk against the big hitters imo.
You can always ask the TO what the typical terrain setup would be, but yeah, lack of terrain is always a risk. Don't rely on the TO's. Bring your own terrain. That's why I recommend the bastion.
Man... I hate doing it, as it feels so "unfluffy", but the more days and batreps we are into the new 'Nid codex, the more it looks like "Bastion" is going to be an auto-include.
If they somehow FAQ that we can't take fortifications.... the next few years are going to be long ones for me. :-p
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Man... I hate doing it, as it feels so "unfluffy", but the more days and batreps we are into the new 'Nid codex, the more it looks like "Bastion" is going to be an auto-include.
If they somehow FAQ that we can't take fortifications.... the next few years are going to be long ones for me. :-p
That is a 125pt minimum inclusion. I have had success without it but can see the benefits to having it.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Man... I hate doing it, as it feels so "unfluffy", but the more days and batreps we are into the new 'Nid codex, the more it looks like "Bastion" is going to be an auto-include.
If they somehow FAQ that we can't take fortifications.... the next few years are going to be long ones for me. :-p
We could have always taken fortifications before so I don't see why they would FAQ that against us. The only thing we couldn't do before was to fire gun emplacements like the quad-gun. That, they may FAQ against us again, though I really don't see the reasoning behind why they should do so.
In any case, nids can still run without fortifications like the bastion. However, by including the bastion, it just makes everything so much easier for the bugs.
Fluffwise, you can justify it as the tyranids have overrun and infested a bastion. Maybe they are using it as a spawning point for some new species of bugs. Maybe they are using it as an experimental lab or maybe they are just using it as a storehouse of genetic material to be consumed later on by a different type of tyranid bug.
NewTruthNeomaxim wrote: Man... I hate doing it, as it feels so "unfluffy", but the more days and batreps we are into the new 'Nid codex, the more it looks like "Bastion" is going to be an auto-include.
If they somehow FAQ that we can't take fortifications.... the next few years are going to be long ones for me. :-p
That is a 125pt minimum inclusion. I have had success without it but can see the benefits to having it.
It should be a minimum 75-pt inclusion. You don't have to upgrade it with anything, though the Comms Relay would be excellent for certain Tyranid builds.
Fragile wrote: Its hard to comment on bits and pieces of the action, but it looks like a bit of a strategy fail. First going for only a 1 in 3 chance to win, but more important, there is zero pressure on the Tau. Partially a function of the army list, but also over conservative play.
Also, you completely gave away your strategy in turn 4. You should have simply ended your turn by saying Reece was doing well, rather than explain that you were waiting for 5 to try to win it all
So what other tactics would you have recommended I do? To just commit seppuka by throwing my bugs into the sword that is Tau shooting? Given the list that I used and the conditions as set forth in this game, do you see alternative strategies would have given me a better chance to win?
Keep in mind that the video was taken at the end of each turn. Before then, Reece already figured out what I was planning to do so I really didn't give anything away that he didn't know. Rather, I thought it would have been better to share with the audience my strategy and tactics for "educational" purposes.
Sandokann wrote: jajaja "Minimun Threat Underfrozen" that was a getto list.... playing for the 5th ending turn is normally a desperate option onces everything have failed and you have to save the day somehow. But running it as your main pregame start is not an option.
Anyway good match... im looking forward seen you playing a real good list, lets hope it will happen soon.
Flyrants, Tervigons, Harpies, Venonthropes, Zoamthorpes, Termagaunts, Mawlocs And Biovores are our main strength. Complete and minmax them with biomorphs and weapons to make them more flexible.
Basically you must be able to deal a lot of preasure from first turn so no1 ever think on turtling agains you..... many have been wrote about 9 fexes list ... but I havent heard of any1 talking about 9 biovores..... No cover saves and hard pressing from turn 1.
Wanna give it a try?
Cheers from Spain
That's easier said than done when you're playing against Tau on the long table edge, especially with my army which, although fast, still has to traverse the board to reach my opponent.
Tomb King wrote: Just beat a tau list with my nids at 1850... even got seized on. Wasnt easy though... had only 1 synapse creature left in the end of it. I killed off all of his troops. Was hammer and anvil relic. 7-1 Nid victory. Still no good solution for buff commander + riptide.
So what did you run? Tau is definitely a very tough matchup for bugs. Still winnable, but perhaps the hardest matchup for tyranids currently.
I think we are about to witness the latest GW money grab. I am thinking that the units that vanished and all viable builds will be contingent on the latest data slates. Basically the codexes from now on are 50 + enter amount here to get the units it needs.
I mean, hey having trouble justifying deathleaper as an HQ and wishing you had Ymgarls still? Just buy vanguard assault and both issues vanish!
I wonder why their health as a company is in question as of late? hmmmmmm.....
I wouldn't mind if they had the Doom and mycetic spores in a dataslate. Yes, I'd probably fall for that money-grabbing scheme of theirs if only they'd include some of those units.
And while they're at it, why not put Biomancy in a Tyranid dataslate as well....
jy2 wrote: I wouldn't mind if they had the Doom and mycetic spores in a dataslate. Yes, I'd probably fall for that money-grabbing scheme of theirs if only they'd include some of those units.
And while they're at it, why not put Biomancy in a Tyranid dataslate as well....
And continue store closings to make that Hasbro buyout happen all the quicker!
Cause if gamers aren't disenfranchised enough already, pinching them with a hidden price hike to play their armies should do the trick!
BTW, I didn't know that you had a bug army. You can borrow units from Reece's army to challenge him with them.
Yup I do. I even won the Golden Gargant with it up at Kubla Con around 2006 when it was a 2 day GT.
I have not played it since early 4th edition and have been meaning to sell it but I have never gotten around to it. I am missing the models that have come out in 5th edition and 6th (think Hive Guard, Tervigons and Tyrgons) so it needs updating.
Ah, so you played in the Golden age of Nidzilla? Back when dakkafexes were only 114-pts and you could run carnifexes with 2+ T7 5W and flyrants could also get 2+ saves? My, how things have changed ever since.
Exactly! The 4th edition Nidzilla list was so good that it was no fun playing it, and no one had fun playing against it so I retired it.
That was a pretty lousy Tyranids list. Still, interesting game. Taudar have been tested and seasoned though, so I'll be curious to see a rematch in a month or so.
I know I've beaten a Taudar with the new 'Nids, and several standalone Tau players.
LeadLegion wrote: Geigering up a bastion for my Nids is one of the things I'm most looking forward to conversion wise in the next few months.
That would look very cool. I was thinking about converting my bastion as well, but then again, I may just leave it bland and generic so that all my other armies can use it as well.
brassangel wrote: That was a pretty lousy Tyranids list. Still, interesting game. Taudar have been tested and seasoned though, so I'll be curious to see a rematch in a month or so.
I know I've beaten a Taudar with the new 'Nids, and several standalone Tau players.
Well, I was limited by my models, but don't worry, I will try out the deepstriking and the flying bugs later.
So what were you running against Tau/Taudar and what were your opponents running?
I don't think the Tau are all that fast overall... Really just the units with jetpacks, which isn't always reliable. Tyranids have access to lots of rending attacks.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Kinda sad really that the winning Tyranid strategy is to hide from your opponent. So much for the "Great Devourer".
From a fluff stand point this indeed is terrible. From a competetive game stand it makes perfect sense. I'm pretty sure a lot of other armies would have done this strategy too against the firepower of a TauDar army. I'm pretty sure i'd do the same with my Trukk Orks. Mind you that this is just the beginning of experimenting with the new Nids. I'm sure when the dust settles there will be a good build that can play aggresively.
Dozer Blades wrote: I don't think the Tau are all that fast overall... Really just the units with jetpacks, which isn't always reliable. Tyranids have access to lots of rending attacks.
Mobility is definitely the biggest weakness of Tau. That's why they need to either ally with Eldar or with the Farsight Enclave to address this issue. Tau by themselves are strong, but when allied with Eldar or Tau, becomes even stronger.
HiiC wrote: Great Batrep! JY2 played it really smart all things considered. I feel like I learn something every time I see/read one of his games.
Thanks. Glad to be of service.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Kinda sad really that the winning Tyranid strategy is to hide from your opponent. So much for the "Great Devourer".
From a fluff stand point this indeed is terrible. From a competetive game stand it makes perfect sense. I'm pretty sure a lot of other armies would have done this strategy too against the firepower of a TauDar army. I'm pretty sure i'd do the same with my Trukk Orks. Mind you that this is just the beginning of experimenting with the new Nids. I'm sure when the dust settles there will be a good build that can play aggresively.
Right. If I were playing for fun, I don't mind charging in with my bugs and thus getting annihilated most likely. Good guys win. Bad guys lose. That's fluffy.
But if I really wanted to win, I had to play very strategically. Most would find this unfluffy as well but in this game, I wasn't trying to forge a narrative. I was trying to take away someone's lunch money
From a fluff stand point this indeed is terrible. From a competetive game stand it makes perfect sense. I'm pretty sure a lot of other armies would have done this strategy too against the firepower of a TauDar army. I'm pretty sure i'd do the same with my Trukk Orks. Mind you that this is just the beginning of experimenting with the new Nids. I'm sure when the dust settles there will be a good build that can play aggresively.
Right. If I were playing for fun, I don't mind charging in with my bugs and thus getting annihilated most likely. Good guys win. Bad guys lose. That's fluffy.
But if I really wanted to win, I had to play very strategically. Most would find this unfluffy as well but in this game, I wasn't trying to forge a narrative. I was trying to take away someone's lunch money
That's a big ass lunch, Reece could feed the hive mind on that lunch money!
Reecius, i love your batreps and also your armies! awesome
i want to ask you a favor... i love grey knights and i would really like to see them in action with a very powerful tourney list against the big bosses of 6th edition (without apocalypse monsters...) as your taudars for example... but i wanto you to play them as i love all of your lists until now... triple dreadknights and a storm raven? with pagks and purifiers as well including coteaz?
That's a big ass lunch, Reece could feed the hive mind on that lunch money!
Well, you know what they say....the Hive Mind is always ravenous. Nom nom nom....
Fire Angel wrote: Reecius, i love your batreps and also your armies! awesome
i want to ask you a favor... i love grey knights and i would really like to see them in action with a very powerful tourney list against the big bosses of 6th edition (without apocalypse monsters...) as your taudars for example... but i wanto you to play them as i love all of your lists until now... triple dreadknights and a storm raven? with pagks and purifiers as well including coteaz?
I'd really appreciate that
Sorry, but Reece and his friends at Frontline don't own a GK army so I don't think you will see that anytime soon. However, once in a while, people come in there with GK armies. For example.....me.
Anyways, you can check out my Draigowing in action at a recent tournament:
Eldercaveman wrote: One thing this video taught me above all else, us that you pronounce it "Jeye2" and not J Y 2
Lol. You can use either. Initially, I actually called myself J Y 2. But then, some of the people whom I've met (including Reece) started calling me Jeye2 and it kinda stuck.
I used to have the same problems. Finally I just went and made up a word based on a manga character name...now I never have that problem, I do however have a new problem when people ask me what the name means? (I say it is tongues for don't ask )
That was great. Not all of the play, but the game in general was fun to watch.
Reece,
I think that you could have won by a lot more had you been more aggressive (I'm sure you know that already though). Thanks for another great batrep and match!
Oh yeah, I could have won by a mile if I wasn't playing like a dumbass! I am so rusty! I played another game today and was doing dumb ass stuff, left and right. Just goes to show how powerful Taudar is.
@Fire ANgel
Thanks! We are getting better and better at the bat reps, so good to hear you enjoy them.
As JY2 said, we do not actually have a GK army. They and Sisters are really the only things we don't have, here. We have to call in Mercenaries like Jim to get that done!
I keep saying I am going to make a Japanese themed GK army but I still haven't gotten around to it. I am always too busy with admin stuff lately. I haven't painted a model in months! =(
jy2 wrote:
Lol. It was because JY and JY1 were already taken (not here on dakka, but on one of my other accounts).
ansacs wrote:I used to have the same problems. Finally I just went and made up a word based on a manga character name...now I never have that problem, I do however have a new problem when people ask me what the name means? (I say it is tongues for don't ask )
This has given me a cool idea for an "Orignis of your tag thread"
Great report. Fun to watch. Thank you for sharing.
The only thing that does my head in is the bingly-bongly music at the start. Gah! It's so non-violent. Can you not find something more aggressive for your intro credits?
Haha, the soft-core porn intro music is funny! At least to me. We used to have intro music from our podcast that was all explosions and metal riffs. We may have to bring it back! haha
The bastion is very interesting. Its pretty wierd that Tyranids would have one (thats just a role playing consideration, not a tactical one) but its smart for this army build.
Ironic that the Tyranids patient hunter did so well against the original patient hunters!
It's a really lopsided battle no matter how you look at it. It's like a movie where the good guy is hiding behind a car and out of bullets and the bad guy is on top the roof with a minigun.
Me thinks the codexes aren't exactly well balance against each other, but it does give me hope that with the right mission, a sleeping opponent and brilliant luck, a win might be possible.
MWHistorian wrote: It's a really lopsided battle no matter how you look at it. It's like a movie where the good guy is hiding behind a car and out of bullets and the bad guy is on top the roof with a minigun.
Me thinks the codexes aren't exactly well balance against each other, but it does give me hope that with the right mission, a sleeping opponent and brilliant luck, a win might be possible.
Not sure anyone is sleeping over $100, but in high level 40K, sometimes people just make mistakes. The pressure can steal your relaxation and focus.
Mistakes were made on both side though so best not to overstate any judgement errors the Tau made..
For example in turn one when the Tyranid dude poked himself out there instead of behind the Bastion and got rocked. Oops. Mental lapse.
Later one of the big boys did the same and got hit. Now the camera angle wasn't awesome for me to see it clearly but it seemed like the gun was the only thing poking out. BUT the players who were there could obviously tell it was jutting a bit I spose.
Also the AMOUNT of bugs that could have come out on the left side, KNOWING they would be in the open and KNOWING the opponent would shoot them a bit, they still should have come out of hiding and forced the enemy to commit some fire to them and thus off the other units...then just shrunk back to where they already decided to go. If you already know the unit is not going to do anything else interesting all game, use them for something. A round of feinting was missed that really could have helped (and in any event was really a risk of no consequence for the Tyranids). Feints are really a good tactic when you're playing this type of Cat and mouse game. Otherwise the enemy is in no way held honest against the targets that matter. They just torrent the important ones BECAUSE you gave them no bad ones that they were forced to give a nod to. net result is those bad targets only ever get fired at when theres NO other choice. 30" fire warriors and a Riptide over there on the left had choices but weren't forced to make them.
Hindsights 20/20 of course and its easy to say when its not my $100.
I think both players did really well and ultimately the bugs showed well in my opinion. Against a powerful army like that Taudar list, great in fact. It gives a lot of hope to players against lesser foes.
Jancoran wrote: The bastion is very interesting. Its pretty wierd that Tyranids would have one (thats just a role playing consideration, not a tactical one) but its smart for this army build.
Ironic that the Tyranids patient hunter did so well against the original patient hunters!
The Hive Mind is not mindless unlike the legions of gribblies that it spawns. Rather, it will adapt to the situation and use whatever strategy is necessary.
MWHistorian wrote: It's a really lopsided battle no matter how you look at it. It's like a movie where the good guy is hiding behind a car and out of bullets and the bad guy is on top the roof with a minigun.
Me thinks the codexes aren't exactly well balance against each other, but it does give me hope that with the right mission, a sleeping opponent and brilliant luck, a win might be possible.
Nope, they sure aren't. Apparently, GW doesn't give 2 hoots about game balance anymore. It appears to be a free-for-all.
But we do the best with what we've got. Either that, or migrate to another army. Fortunately for the public, I like my underdog armies.
MWHistorian wrote: It's a really lopsided battle no matter how you look at it. It's like a movie where the good guy is hiding behind a car and out of bullets and the bad guy is on top the roof with a minigun.
Me thinks the codexes aren't exactly well balance against each other, but it does give me hope that with the right mission, a sleeping opponent and brilliant luck, a win might be possible.
Not sure anyone is sleeping over $100, but in high level 40K, sometimes people just make mistakes. The pressure can steal your relaxation and focus.
Mistakes were made on both side though so best not to overstate any judgement errors the Tau made..
For example in turn one when the Tyranid dude poked himself out there instead of behind the Bastion and got rocked. Oops. Mental lapse.
Later one of the big boys did the same and got hit. Now the camera angle wasn't awesome for me to see it clearly but it seemed like the gun was the only thing poking out. BUT the players who were there could obviously tell it was jutting a bit I spose.
Also the AMOUNT of bugs that could have come out on the left side, KNOWING they would be in the open and KNOWING the opponent would shoot them a bit, they still should have come out of hiding and forced the enemy to commit some fire to them and thus off the other units...then just shrunk back to where they already decided to go. If you already know the unit is not going to do anything else interesting all game, use them for something. A round of feinting was missed that really could have helped (and in any event was really a risk of no consequence for the Tyranids). Feints are really a good tactic when you're playing this type of Cat and mouse game. Otherwise the enemy is in no way held honest against the targets that matter. They just torrent the important ones BECAUSE you gave them no bad ones that they were forced to give a nod to. net result is those bad targets only ever get fired at when theres NO other choice. 30" fire warriors and a Riptide over there on the left had choices but weren't forced to make them.
Hindsights 20/20 of course and its easy to say when its not my $100.
I think both players did really well and ultimately the bugs showed well in my opinion. Against a powerful army like that Taudar list, great in fact. It gives a lot of hope to players against lesser foes.
I have to say I really enjoyed watching that one.
With regards to any units sticking out, that is not a mistake. Unfortunately, it is unavoidable, especially when you're trying to hide a tervgion, flyrant and 2 carnifexes behind the structure and your opponent has 2 gunners moving towards the flanks to try to get shots off. You can't hide them all.
Also, every turn, I did advance a unit for my opponent to shoot at.
MWHistorian wrote: Very true! I don't mean to dame-an the players' abilities, either one of them would take me with half their dice tied behind their back.
\Also, were those Riptides worth it? It seems they hurt themselves more than the enemy. Is that normal?
It happens, though in this game, my opponent failed an above-average number of nova-charges.
5th edition was actually pretty balanced, if a little vehicle-heavy.
6th edition was starting to creep out of balance with the introduction of allies. Now armies can "patch up" holes in their armies with allies to address any internal weakness in the army that was supposed to balance out their strengths.
And now it's anything-goes at GW events. Bring your dataslates. Bring your formations. Bring your titans. Heck, even bring the Forgeworld units with experimental rules if you want.
Seeing this makes me glad, as a Tau player from the early days (you know, those days we got stomped all over the place yet no body moaned), that I don't play Taudar or anything with Allies. In fact I don't even do tournaments or competitive gaming so my Tau haven't got to the mega cheese level at my FLGS yet. I intend it to stay that bloody way too.
Good report and nice to see the Nids nearly pull it out the bag. Keep it up JY2, from across the pond.
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