I'm looking to make some specialist close combat Units for my Homegrown Ultramarine successor Chapter.
I want to make the best/most efficient use I can of the Bitz i have, because i decided its about time i stopped buying stuff and started using it.

I wanted to get peoples opinions on the following units:
Honour Guard
Biker Command Squad
Vanguard Veterans

Tell me if/when you think they are viable choices, how you use them, and -perhaps most importantly for my wargear inventory- how you would gear them .... oh, and 'why' would be nice
For example "Vanguards: all with Relic Blades, only ever take with a chaplain, use as a warlord hunting unit", or "Honour Guard need Tigurius' abilities". becuase....

Feel free to throw in any tactical comments that come to mind on these units, or even other units I've not mentioned.
The more ideas you throw at me ...... well, the more indecisive i will become, but I am interested to get some more experienced perspectives non-the-less

Look forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences on these units and Codex SM CC options.


I've been thinking about a 5x Relic blade Vanguard unit, and an all TH/SS death star biker command squad .... mainly because, well, theoretical awesomeness.
I am aware however that the biker command squad, that i hadn't started building yet, can no longer take plasma guns, and seems to rack up to some ridiculous points cost now ....
not to mention a 5xRelic Blade Vanguard Veteran unit maybe not being the best use of my precious Relic Blades.

Capt-Crapulence wrote:
I'm looking to make some specialist close combat Units for my Homegrown Ultramarine successor Chapter.
I want to make the best/most efficient use I can of the Bitz i have, because i decided its about time i stopped buying stuff and started using it.

I wanted to get peoples opinions on the following units:
Honour Guard
Biker Command Squad
Vanguard Veterans

Tell me if/when you think they are viable choices, how you use them, and -perhaps most importantly for my wargear inventory- how you would gear them .... oh, and 'why' would be nice
For example "Vanguards: all with Relic Blades, only ever take with a chaplain, use as a warlord hunting unit", or "Honour Guard need Tigurius' abilities". becuase....

Feel free to throw in any tactical comments that come to mind on these units, or even other units I've not mentioned.
The more ideas you throw at me ...... well, the more indecisive i will become, but I am interested to get some more experienced perspectives non-the-less

Look forward to hearing your thoughts and experiences on these units and Codex SM CC options.


I've been thinking about a 5x Relic blade Vanguard unit, and an all TH/SS death star biker command squad .... mainly because, well, theoretical awesomeness.
I am aware however that the biker command squad, that i hadn't started building yet, can no longer take plasma guns, and seems to rack up to some ridiculous points cost now ....
not to mention a 5xRelic Blade Vanguard Veteran unit maybe not being the best use of my precious Relic Blades.

Bike Command - Never use for CQC. They are infinitely better at shooting.
Vanguard - Too Expensive.
Honor Guard - Pretty Good. 50-60% of the unit w/ Axes 40-50% of the unit with Mauls. They can take on almost anything but try avoid getting tarpitted. Put them in a Land Raider with a Chaplain (Or any other Character as they all work fairly well together)

Vanguard vets are best if you give them the same upgrades you would give a regular unit of assault marines, supported by a jump chaplain. Vanguard vets only suck if you fall into the trap of loading them up with special gear just because you can.

I have been testing out a Honor guard unit to go with a Chaplain and my Beat stick Chapter Master.

Chapter Master Art armor, Sheild eternal, Thunder hammer.
Chaplain combi flamer
Honor guard. generaly 5.
Land Raider (generally Crusader)

Charge into enemy deployment zone, deploy and assault.

The Vanguard vets so far havent worked wonders for me, which is sad because I like the look of them on paper. Gonna try more set ups.

Vanguard vets suffer the perils of 6-th ed. They're not more useful than regular assault marines but are 20% more expensive. Basically, they got an advantage of +1 attack and no-disoriented charge. Though, there are many times when more damage in mellee will be either an overkill or harmful for you cause u'r main aim is to kill the enemy over 2 phases not to expose urself to shooting. Cause as soon as they're drawing too much attention - they die fast. They have hard time getting in mellee cause they're not bikers or cavalry. So the only remotedly useful thing you can do with them is putting a few stormshields to boost survivability vs ap2-3...and they'll still be worse than mediocre.
Or you can probably put them in a landraider but they'll have to replace honor guards in this case and still be worse once again.
Unfortunately, the best use i see for vanguard vets is counting them as a min squad of asm with 2 flamers in a drop pod

Don't forget that Sternguard are very competent in melee aswell.

They can be a nice hybrid unit, add some flamers / heavy flamers and they are very good in melee too.

Feasible wrote:
Bike Command - Never use for CQC. They are infinitely better at shooting.
Vanguard - Too Expensive.
Honor Guard - Pretty Good. 50-60% of the unit w/ Axes 40-50% of the unit with Mauls. They can take on almost anything but try avoid getting tarpitted. Put them in a Land Raider with a Chaplain (Or any other Character as they all work fairly well together)

so how would you kit a Biker Command Squad? considering they can no longer take special weapons. I'm starting to think a squad of standard bikers may be more practical, points-wise, in this codex?

Alexi wrote:I have been testing out a Honor guard unit to go with a Chaplain and my Beat stick Chapter Master.

Chapter Master Art armor, Sheild eternal, Thunder hammer.
Chaplain combi flamer
Honor guard. generaly 5.
Land Raider (generally Crusader)

Charge into enemy deployment zone, deploy and assault.

The Vanguard vets so far havent worked wonders for me, which is sad because I like the look of them on paper. Gonna try more set ups.

Well it seems like the general consensus is that Vanguard Veterans are best used as Assault Marines with an extra attack, so I'd be interested to hear how the other set-ups work for you, as it would almost seem a shame to use them as Assault Marines, when I already have more Assault Marines than i know what to do with .... I inherited some of my friends semi-constructed blood angels.

Vombat wrote:Don't forget that Sternguard are very competent in melee aswell.

They can be a nice hybrid unit, add some flamers / heavy flamers and they are very good in melee too.

A Sternguard is at the top of my 'must-build' list ... although i was going to give them all combi-weapons and a couple of heavy flamers, do you think it's worth giving the sergeant a decent melee weapon?

Capt-Crapulence wrote:

Feasible wrote:
Bike Command - Never use for CQC. They are infinitely better at shooting.
Vanguard - Too Expensive.
Honor Guard - Pretty Good. 50-60% of the unit w/ Axes 40-50% of the unit with Mauls. They can take on almost anything but try avoid getting tarpitted. Put them in a Land Raider with a Chaplain (Or any other Character as they all work fairly well together)

so how would you kit a Biker Command Squad? considering they can no longer take special weapons. I'm starting to think a squad of standard bikers may be more practical, points-wise, in this codex?

They absolutely can still take Special Weapons. Read the FAQ.

ahhhh sweet! thanks for bringing that to my attention Mr.Walrus! Plasma Rifles are back on the table

Capt-Crapulence wrote:
ahhhh sweet! thanks for bringing that to my attention Mr.Walrus! Plasma Rifles are back on the table

Grav-guns are too. The Bike Command Squad puts out a horrifying amount of Grav shots per turn.

Im a big proponent of Honor Guard. For 25 points you get a bolter, bolt pistol, power weapon and Artificier Armor. With the Banner you have a unit that has 5 power weapon attacks per marine on the Charge.

Id advise you chose a particular power weapon and kit out the entire unit with it. Each has its merits, i run my HG with power swords and use then as a MEQ killer. you can giv them axes if you want to go after 2+ save guys, or you can go the power maul route and make ur enemy roll a ton of armour saves.

Biker Command squads, as others have said, are better used as a platform for special weapons.

Vanguard are overcosted and still suck.

go with the Honor Guard

If you do take Vanguards, have Shrike lead them and the only upgrades you give them are melta bombs for all of them. And take ten.

Infiltrate them into cover and if you are bold enough let your opponent get first turn and try for a first turn assault. Shrike should be able to handle most things, meltas are for monsters and vehicles. You'l likely get shot up but hoepefully stealth on turn one in cover will mitigate some of it.

They're still not that great though.

would you still consider kitting a Biker Command Squad out with Storm Shields and Power Weapons if you're using them as a mobile special weapon platform?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I mean like AP2 power weapons. so you could roll through TEQs with a grav-gun salvo followed by AP2 melee, then go harass some other units ... ?

I have a friend the runs a 5 model Vanguard.

Vanguard Veteran Squad, 245 pts (Bolt Pistol x4; Jump Packs; Storm Shield x4; Power Sword x4)
1x Veteran Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Jump Pack; Storm Shield; Relic Blade)

It is a lot of points, but it has made a great HQ Assassination Unit. The Storm Shields help with the incoming fire and the AP3 Weapons take out 3+ Armor.

I am planning on switching it up with Shrike, 5 Vets with Jump Packs and Lighting Claw/Power Fist landing near one of two Drop Pods that landed on Turn One.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have a friend the runs a 5 model Vanguard.

Vanguard Veteran Squad, 245 pts (Bolt Pistol x4; Jump Packs; Storm Shield x4; Power Sword x4)
1x Veteran Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Jump Pack; Storm Shield; Relic Blade)

It is a lot of points, but it has made a great HQ Assassination Unit. The Storm Shields help with the incoming fire and the AP3 Weapons take out 3+ Armor.

I am planning on switching it up with Shrike, 5 Vets with Jump Packs and Lighting Claw/Power Fist landing near one of two Drop Pods that landed on Turn One.

That is a lot of points in 5 models. Mmmm... juicy target. Marines can't afford to field juicy targets as they are juicy enough to begin with.

I would say the honor guard is your best bet, but they have serious mobility problems. C:SM just doesn't have much viable CC potential in it.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
I have a friend the runs a 5 model Vanguard.

Vanguard Veteran Squad, 245 pts (Bolt Pistol x4; Jump Packs; Storm Shield x4; Power Sword x4)
1x Veteran Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Jump Pack; Storm Shield; Relic Blade)

It is a lot of points, but it has made a great HQ Assassination Unit. The Storm Shields help with the incoming fire and the AP3 Weapons take out 3+ Armor.

I am planning on switching it up with Shrike, 5 Vets with Jump Packs and Lighting Claw/Power Fist landing near one of two Drop Pods that landed on Turn One.

That is a lot of points in 5 models. Mmmm... juicy target. Marines can't afford to field juicy targets as they are juicy enough to begin with.

I would say the honor guard is your best bet, but they have serious mobility problems. C:SM just doesn't have much viable CC potential in it.

When it works it is Game winning, When it fails...the game becomes a struggle.

Why do you care about killing an HQ anyway? Except maybe a buffmander? It's not like librarians or biker chapter masters are taking over the world.

Martel732 wrote:
Why do you care about killing an HQ anyway? Except maybe a buffmander? It's not like librarians or biker chapter masters are taking over the world.

Victory Points: First Blood, Slay the Warlord and if they are still alive Line Breaker.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why do you care about killing an HQ anyway? Except maybe a buffmander? It's not like librarians or biker chapter masters are taking over the world.

Victory Points: First Blood, Slay the Warlord and if they are still alive Line Breaker.

Wouldn't it be easier to shoot them though?

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why do you care about killing an HQ anyway? Except maybe a buffmander? It's not like librarians or biker chapter masters are taking over the world.

Victory Points: First Blood, Slay the Warlord and if they are still alive Line Breaker.

It sounds great but they die lie regular marines. Marines in Double Tap range will kill 2 alone....

For C:SM, you've got quite a few options for CC units.

The winners for me are Honour Guard. They're very cheap for what you get, make a great bodyguard for a HQ, and with a banner, they can either get +1A or re-rolls in the first round if you go with the relic banner. I've not run the maths, so I couldn't tell you which is better, but if you throw in a Chaplain and banner, you get the best of both worlds. A LRC or Drop pod is probably the best option for transport. The Pod will mean you take more damage but you get into CC sooner, the LR is expensive but you are pretty much impossible to really touch until you reach the enemy.

Vanguard really are best run as AM+1, as they have a pretty good number of attacks for the points if you run them bare. I'd actually run them in concert with a couple of Assault Squads to give you a mobile force that can apply threat from several units, diverting and dividing incoming fire.

Termies of either kind are still good, but I'd hesitate to take them in a raider when you get so much more bang for your buck with Honour Guard. DS them in and punch stuff up. They maybe aren't the most competitive option, but they can still do pretty well.

I'd also say it's always worth supporting CC options with a squad or two of assault marines, as running in alone is a surefire way to get killed. You need threat overload to force target prioritisation, and AM are the cheapest way to do this. Avoid hard CC units, as they'll eat up most C:SM CC options, and stick to the old motto 'shoot the choppy, chop the shooty' and you're good to go.

 Feasible wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why do you care about killing an HQ anyway? Except maybe a buffmander? It's not like librarians or biker chapter masters are taking over the world.

Victory Points: First Blood, Slay the Warlord and if they are still alive Line Breaker.

It sounds great but they die lie regular marines. Marines in Double Tap range will kill 2 alone....

I was taling about the 5x Storm Shield Unit. All you got to do is survive one turn of shooting, sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.
For the Srhike one, I don't know yet. I have not tried it yet.

Blood angel Assault Masrines with Corbulo at their head is VERY tough.

Perhaps an allied contingent?

 Jancoran wrote:
Blood angel Assault Masrines with Corbulo at their head is VERY tough.

Perhaps an allied contingent?

It's decent. It lack mobility because Corbs is on foot only.

I understand, but the loss of mobility is forgivable when delivered in a pod on the front door.

 Jancoran wrote:
I understand, but the loss of mobility is forgivable when delivered in a pod on the front door.

Pods are very overrated. The "dead turn" where they can't assault is often the fatal flaw. People have dropped all kinds of units next to me. None are as good as Space Wolves, because they are just as good being assaulted and when they assault.

overrated or not, Corbulo can turn almost every shot at his unit to dust.

Only those less than S 8.

Look out Sir. On 2+. handled.

 Jancoran wrote:
Look out Sir. On 2+. handled.

But that's defeating the purpose of a wound sponge. Now your guys are taking the wounds. Of course a big reason I quit using this set up was Tau pie plates and Eldar Jetseers.

Very few wounds. Point is, he's doing...this list. one way or another, its gonna be assaulty.

So you can go assaulty without Corbulo...or with. And let me tell ya. WITH is better.

Corbulo is one of the few things left in the BA codex that could be mistaken for "good", I'll agree there.

Space Marines generally shouldn't be assaulting. What kills them is the dreaded number 4. I4, S4, T4.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Space Marines generally shouldn't be assaulting. What kills them is the dreaded number 4. I4, S4, T4.

I'm forced to agree with this, even though I play BA and this concept is very unfluffy.

Martel732 wrote:

 obsidiankatana wrote:
Space Marines generally shouldn't be assaulting. What kills them is the dreaded number 4. I4, S4, T4.

I'm forced to agree with this, even though I play BA and this concept is very unfluffy.

I am a Space Wolf Player and I believe such except for some special Cases [TWC Cavalry]. I am constantly saying that Space Wolves are not an Assault Army. They are a Mid-Ranged Shooty Army with superior Counter-Assault ability.

Well. I'm playing Night Lords right now. Really Assaulty Works good.

I'm not a competitive player by any means, but I like Honor Guard, and here is why.

They come with Artificer Armour, which confers a nice 2+, they get free choice of power weapons, meaning swords, axes, mauls, as you see fit, and the Company Champion is great for dealing with pesky duels. I think he can also grab a combat shield for a small invul.

I have been messing around with this...

4x Honor Guard, 2 with sword, 2 with axes
1x Captain with some kind of decent weapon
1x Chapter Master, with a Power Axe and Shield Eternal

I put them in a Razorback because I'm poor, and I zip them up the field asap. I jump them out and attack pretty much anything I want. They do take considerable fire from anyone who knows what they'll do in melee, and the 2+ isn't always enough, but consider this... An Iron Hands CM can regen wounds, and with the SE he can take a LOT of punishment. I always try to have him out front tanking shots, it's not unusual for him to hover around 2-3 wounds all game.

The only thing you have to watch out for with the HG is their lack of an invul safe so you'll want some way to protect them while they're in transit, like sticking to cover (but sometimes that's just not there!) or using a heavier transport for them like a Stormraven.

That's my take on my so far favourite CC unit, mind you... haha I made my HG out of bits too so after awhile I may end up gluing jump packs on them and calling them Vanguard!

So, I've decided that -based on popular opinion- my half-built Honour Guard squad will live to be more than just a pretty/dusty unit on a shelf.

I'm also going to go ahead and make a Grav-gun Biker command squad.... I am, however, going to kit them out with storm shields and Power Weapons.
Despite being perhaps an unnecessary sinking of points, I've got some DA and BA bitz i want to use on them as a bit of a conversion project.

I've got a Vanguard Veteran box which was a present, and it seems a shame to waste and awesome lookin' unit with bog-standard gear.
I might tool them up and make them pretty, and make some DIY vanguard for practical purposes .....

I've got over 30 assault marines inherited from a friends BA force, so I'd be interest to hear what some of you might do with what -for me at least- is an excessive amount of Assault Marines?

also, opinions on melee scouts? I quite like the idea of charging a horde of scouts at the enemy ... if only for Sh*ts n giggles or a cheap distraction


Automatically Appended Next Post:

darkcloak wrote:
I'm not a competitive player by any means, but I like Honor Guard, and here is why.

They come with Artificer Armour, which confers a nice 2+, they get free choice of power weapons, meaning swords, axes, mauls, as you see fit, and the Company Champion is great for dealing with pesky duels. I think he can also grab a combat shield for a small invul.

I have been messing around with this...

4x Honor Guard, 2 with sword, 2 with axes
1x Captain with some kind of decent weapon
1x Chapter Master, with a Power Axe and Shield Eternal

I put them in a Razorback because I'm poor, and I zip them up the field asap. I jump them out and attack pretty much anything I want. They do take considerable fire from anyone who knows what they'll do in melee, and the 2+ isn't always enough, but consider this... An Iron Hands CM can regen wounds, and with the SE he can take a LOT of punishment. I always try to have him out front tanking shots, it's not unusual for him to hover around 2-3 wounds all game.

The only thing you have to watch out for with the HG is their lack of an invul safe so you'll want some way to protect them while they're in transit, like sticking to cover (but sometimes that's just not there!) or using a heavier transport for them like a Stormraven.

That's my take on my so far favourite CC unit, mind you... haha I made my HG out of bits too so after awhile I may end up gluing jump packs on them and calling them Vanguard!

This is pretty much how i imagined gearing/using my honour guard ~8

Capt-Crapulence wrote:

I've been thinking about a 5x Relic blade Vanguard unit,

I thought only the Sgt can take a Relic blade.

 Dancingwolf91 wrote:

Capt-Crapulence wrote:

I've been thinking about a 5x Relic blade Vanguard unit,

I thought only the Sgt can take a Relic blade.

you may be right there ... i haven't got the codex to hand

I wasn't being mean or anything, I just wasn't sure

Only the sergeant can take a relic blade. But it's a meh weapon anyway.

Mellee scouts are actually possible.

Landspeeder storm with a feavy flamer
+ small number of scouts with ccw+bolt pistol or with shotguns.
Sergeant with some sort of a combi-weapon or a melta-bomb. Depending on what you want them to be. It all costs around 100 pts and is pretty effective with infiltrate and scout usr.

Assault marines are usable but if you want to fly with them across the map - the only time they can be on par with bikers is when there's alot of high blos buildings so they can land on the roof and be not visible from the ground. Or you could use them as a flamer-drop either with a drop pod or with deepstriking via jump-pack.

 koooaei wrote:
Mellee scouts are actually possible.

Landspeeder storm with a feavy flamer
+ small number of scouts with ccw+bolt pistol or with shotguns.
Sergeant with some sort of a combi-weapon or a melta-bomb. Depending on what you want them to be. It all costs around 100 pts and is pretty effective with infiltrate and scout usr.

The Land Speeder doesn't get Infiltrate though, only Scout.

The land Speeder gets infiltrate as long as the scouts are deployed inside of it.

Huh, so they can. Consider me corrected.

I don't think they could in the old codex since they were not a dedicated transport (or maybe that's a 5th ed holdover).

 Crantor wrote:
You'l likely get shot up but hoepefully stealth on turn one in cover will mitigate some of it.

Raven Guard Chapter Traits do not give stealth to jump pack units.

 Anpu42 wrote:

 Feasible wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Why do you care about killing an HQ anyway? Except maybe a buffmander? It's not like librarians or biker chapter masters are taking over the world.

Victory Points: First Blood, Slay the Warlord and if they are still alive Line Breaker.

It sounds great but they die lie regular marines. Marines in Double Tap range will kill 2 alone....

I was taling about the 5x Storm Shield Unit. All you got to do is survive one turn of shooting, sometimes you do, sometimes you don't.
For the Srhike one, I don't know yet. I have not tried it yet.

I was talking about the Vanguard Vets too... surviving one turn of shooting isn't very easy when you need to hit the squad with 45 bolter shots to completely destroy it.

Or pepper them with grav and spoiling assault them with bikers.

You both are assuming that I would Be Stupid Enough to place them in a Place where every unit in your Backfield can shoot at them and that they will show up on trun 2 when everything should be still in good shape.Think about them showing on Turn 3-4 behined a building or other blocking terrain about 18" from my intended target.

 Anpu42 wrote:
You both are assuming that I would Be Stupid Enough to place them in a Place where every unit in your Backfield can shoot at them and that they will show up on trun 2 when everything should be still in good shape.Think about them showing on Turn 3-4 behined a building or other blocking terrain about 18" from my intended target.

That's assuming there is appropriate situation blocking terrain. And trying to get behind blocking terrain means you can always mishap into said terrain. DS has too many moving parts to be a reliable threat. I welcome my opponent to DS as many CC troops as they like.

And I don't need every unit to gun down 5 meqs with storm shields. Just a couple. It's an easy unit to cripple as well.

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
You both are assuming that I would Be Stupid Enough to place them in a Place where every unit in your Backfield can shoot at them and that they will show up on trun 2 when everything should be still in good shape.Think about them showing on Turn 3-4 behined a building or other blocking terrain about 18" from my intended target.

That's assuming there is appropriate situation blocking terrain. And trying to get behind blocking terrain means you can always mishap into said terrain. DS has too many moving parts to be a reliable threat. I welcome my opponent to DS as many CC troops as they like.

And I don't need every unit to gun down 5 meqs with storm shields. Just a couple. It's an easy unit to cripple as well.

Scatter, well that drop pod from turn one with a Locater Beacon solves then.
And you might not have the units avalible?
It come down to many things that can not be bought out here.
I have also have had it done to me, especialy vs and agresive army that leaves ungaurded units in the rear [like I have done] forgeting the VVs were still in reserve on turn 4, one good hand full of saves can make the diference. it only takes one or two moedls with AP3 Weapons to wreck a Long Fanges Pack quickly.

Probably the best marine assault army on paper is carcharodons... A LOT better than BA for considerably cheaper.
If Tyberos breaks a unit your 14pt scoring marines are getting 4 st 5 attacks on the charge each. Thats just silly.
You can pod, rhino rush or footslog. If footslogging just throw in a few ordeo xenos inquisitors with hammerhand or prescience and rad granades and you're sorted.

Poly Ranger wrote:
Probably the best marine assault army on paper is carcharodons... A LOT better than BA for considerably cheaper.
If Tyberos breaks a unit your 14pt scoring marines are getting 4 st 5 attacks on the charge each. Thats just silly.
You can pod, rhino rush or footslog. If footslogging just throw in a few ordeo xenos inquisitors with hammerhand or prescience and rad granades and you're sorted.

Arguably Templars. Rerolls to hit in challenges on a "standard" beatstick Chapter Master, as well as having better Troops in Crusader Squads.

That's also a good call if footslogging with an inquisitor. Plus templars get cheap meat shields. But the +1 attack on the charge combined with the +1s swings it for me. Carcharodons are what the Flesh Tearers should be. Fluff wise.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The chainsword option makes tactical Carcharodons the same as initiates barring the rage and the strength buff tbf.

Templars get double Power Weapons. If you're going to be punching things with Tactical equivalents you want as many PWs as possible.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
You both are assuming that I would Be Stupid Enough to place them in a Place where every unit in your Backfield can shoot at them and that they will show up on trun 2 when everything should be still in good shape.Think about them showing on Turn 3-4 behined a building or other blocking terrain about 18" from my intended target.

That's assuming there is appropriate situation blocking terrain. And trying to get behind blocking terrain means you can always mishap into said terrain. DS has too many moving parts to be a reliable threat. I welcome my opponent to DS as many CC troops as they like.

And I don't need every unit to gun down 5 meqs with storm shields. Just a couple. It's an easy unit to cripple as well.

Scatter, well that drop pod from turn one with a Locater Beacon solves then.
And you might not have the units avalible?
It come down to many things that can not be bought out here.
I have also have had it done to me, especialy vs and agresive army that leaves ungaurded units in the rear [like I have done] forgeting the VVs were still in reserve on turn 4, one good hand full of saves can make the diference. it only takes one or two moedls with AP3 Weapons to wreck a Long Fanges Pack quickly.

You need Long Fangs to die long before turn 4. Reserves are the devil, and have been since 5th started. You want as many models on the board from turn 1 killing stuff. In general..

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
You both are assuming that I would Be Stupid Enough to place them in a Place where every unit in your Backfield can shoot at them and that they will show up on trun 2 when everything should be still in good shape.Think about them showing on Turn 3-4 behined a building or other blocking terrain about 18" from my intended target.

That's assuming there is appropriate situation blocking terrain. And trying to get behind blocking terrain means you can always mishap into said terrain. DS has too many moving parts to be a reliable threat. I welcome my opponent to DS as many CC troops as they like.

And I don't need every unit to gun down 5 meqs with storm shields. Just a couple. It's an easy unit to cripple as well.

Scatter, well that drop pod from turn one with a Locater Beacon solves then.
And you might not have the units avalible?
It come down to many things that can not be bought out here.
I have also have had it done to me, especialy vs and agresive army that leaves ungaurded units in the rear [like I have done] forgeting the VVs were still in reserve on turn 4, one good hand full of saves can make the diference. it only takes one or two moedls with AP3 Weapons to wreck a Long Fanges Pack quickly.

You need Long Fangs to die long before turn 4. Reserves are the devil, and have been since 5th started. You want as many models on the board from turn 1 killing stuff. In general..

Well sometines thing just don't work that way.

On Topice: We have been finding Vanguards are the best we have used, but we have not been using Codex: Space Marines Honor Guard.

Make them work out that way. When shooting, you choose what dies, not your opponent. That's why one reason Taudar are broken and CC armies stink up the joint.

Vanguards are not as offensive as they were in 5th, but probably the best thing to give them is meltabombs so they can terrorize MCs.

Honor guards are fantastic on paper, but suffer from mobilization problems. They end up being average in practice, imo. Which good for a CC unit in 6th. They too suffer from weaponry jumping from AP 4 to AP 2 .

The bottom line is that there is no marine CC unit I'd put in a TAC list.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Anpu42 wrote:
You both are assuming that I would Be Stupid Enough to place them in a Place where every unit in your Backfield can shoot at them and that they will show up on trun 2 when everything should be still in good shape.Think about them showing on Turn 3-4 behined a building or other blocking terrain about 18" from my intended target.

That's assuming there is appropriate situation blocking terrain. And trying to get behind blocking terrain means you can always mishap into said terrain. DS has too many moving parts to be a reliable threat. I welcome my opponent to DS as many CC troops as they like.

And I don't need every unit to gun down 5 meqs with storm shields. Just a couple. It's an easy unit to cripple as well.

Scatter, well that drop pod from turn one with a Locater Beacon solves then.
And you might not have the units avalible?
It come down to many things that can not be bought out here.
I have also have had it done to me, especialy vs and agresive army that leaves ungaurded units in the rear [like I have done] forgeting the VVs were still in reserve on turn 4, one good hand full of saves can make the diference. it only takes one or two moedls with AP3 Weapons to wreck a Long Fanges Pack quickly.

You need Long Fangs to die long before turn 4. Reserves are the devil, and have been since 5th started. You want as many models on the board from turn 1 killing stuff. In general..

Well sometines thing just don't work that way.

On Topice: We have been finding Vanguards are the best we have used, but we have not been using Codex: Space Marines Honor Guard.

Vanguard Veteran Squad, 245 pts (Bolt Pistol x4; Jump Packs; Storm Shield x4; Power Sword x4)
1x Veteran Sergeant (Bolt Pistol; Jump Pack; Storm Shield; Relic Blade)


^ Is one of the worst ways to use Vanguard. You die easily from small arms, I5, templates, 2+ armor, etc. ,but thank god that your 49.5 point models can take a tank shell to the face and can kill space marines, IF and only if they get into combat. Which they won't

That squad is worse than I thought. That's for enumerating it's terribleness for me.

I guess I must be making up crap then if is it has happend

I believe you. I just don't believe in your level of competition. That squad would not work in most play areas at all.

Martel732 wrote:
I believe you. I just don't believe in your level of competition. That squad would not work in most play areas at all.

So, it works with us, the guy wanted advice so I told him somthing that worked for me, what more can I do?

Expand your thought to all possible opponents and obstacles, and not just your personal experiences. Use math to conjecture what might be good in a general sense.

Martel732 wrote:
Expand your thought to all possible opponents and obstacles, and not just your personal experiences. Use math to conjecture what might be good in a general sense.

I do
I know that if I drop a squad like that into the midle of a bunch of units it is going to get creamed.
I also don't trust mathhammer. I have seen it go wrong for decades. If I listend to mathhammer I would have never played Blood Claws.
Instead I thought about it Added a Wolf Priest to the mix [the first on Dakka to do so as far as I can tell] and now my Blood Claws are winning games for me.

The same thing can be said about insisting that squads based on tournament meta are the only way to go without taking his local meta into consideration.

 Anpu42 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Expand your thought to all possible opponents and obstacles, and not just your personal experiences. Use math to conjecture what might be good in a general sense.

I do
I know that if I drop a squad like that into the midle of a bunch of units it is going to get creamed.
I also don't trust mathhammer. I have seen it go wrong for decades. If I listend to mathhammer I would have never played Blood Claws.
Instead I thought about it Added a Wolf Priest to the mix [the first on Dakka to do so as far as I can tell] and now my Blood Claws are winning games for me.

Mathhammer can go wrong in individual games, but over many, many games, it is exactly correct. I wouldn't use your playgroup as a good barometer of what is good. I forget the stats on blood claws, but I'm sure there is a reason people think they are bad.

 d-usa wrote:
The same thing can be said about insisting that squads based on tournament meta are the only way to go without taking his local meta into consideration.

I have seen that to.
A new guy show up with a list from he Meta and it takes a few games before he figures out how to play in another.
sticking with the same thing orver and over makes it hard to look outside the Box.
Look at the HellDrake, whe it came out the whole comunity was talking about what a peice of crap it was and then used by somebody to kill off some MEQs, presto a broken unit was discovered.

I am testing a honor guard unit next weekend. I will let you know how it goes.

8 honor guard, 1 with chapter banner (not the relic) standard weapons.
Chapter Master, Thunder hammer, Sheild eternal, art armor
Chaplain, combi-flamer
Drop pod.
Imperial Fist tactics. Lots of bolt shots the turn I drop, plus the combi flamer, with the CHM to tank wounds. Assault the next turn. The chapter champoin does the challange, even with the 2 hq's because he has to, that frees the CHM up to use his TH and charge attack with the chaplain bonus.

Alexi wrote:
I am testing a honor guard unit next weekend. I will let you know how it goes.

8 honor guard, 1 with chapter banner (not the relic) standard weapons.
Chapter Master, Thunder hammer, Sheild eternal, art armor
Chaplain, combi-flamer
Drop pod.
Imperial Fist tactics. Lots of bolt shots the turn I drop, plus the combi flamer, with the CHM to tank wounds. Assault the next turn. The chapter champoin does the challange, even with the 2 hq's because he has to, that frees the CHM up to use his TH and charge attack with the chaplain bonus.

You can't drop these guys anywhere close to grav, plasma, D-scythes, or rending claws. Be careful. Or Eldar troops. Or emer override Riptides. Dammit I hate CC in 6th.

Poly Ranger wrote:Probably the best marine assault army on paper is carcharodons... A LOT better than BA for considerably cheaper.
If Tyberos breaks a unit your 14pt scoring marines are getting 4 st 5 attacks on the charge each. Thats just silly.
You can pod, rhino rush or footslog. If footslogging just throw in a few ordeo xenos inquisitors with hammerhand or prescience and rad granades and you're sorted.

sorry, not heard of the Carcharodons ... according to Warhammer Wiki they're Raven Guard successors? just wondering where the extra attack and strength comes from?
Have been considering an allied detachment for all my excess assault marines

Martel732 wrote:Make them work out that way. When shooting, you choose what dies, not your opponent. That's why one reason Taudar are broken and CC armies stink up the joint.

Vanguards are not as offensive as they were in 5th, but probably the best thing to give them is meltabombs so they can terrorize MCs.

Honor guards are fantastic on paper, but suffer from mobilization problems. They end up being average in practice, imo. Which good for a CC unit in 6th. They too suffer from weaponry jumping from AP 4 to AP 2 .

The bottom line is that there is no marine CC unit I'd put in a TAC list.

I do quite like the idea of giving them meltabombs and terrorizing MCs

 Anpu42 wrote:

Look at the HellDrake, whe it came out the whole comunity was talking about what a peice of crap it was and then used by somebody to kill off some MEQs, presto a broken unit was discovered.

It released with questionable firing arcs. GW gave it a 360 arc, then it was broken.

Alexi wrote:
I am testing a honor guard unit next weekend. I will let you know how it goes.

8 honor guard, 1 with chapter banner (not the relic) standard weapons.
Chapter Master, Thunder hammer, Sheild eternal, art armor
Chaplain, combi-flamer
Drop pod.
Imperial Fist tactics. Lots of bolt shots the turn I drop, plus the combi flamer, with the CHM to tank wounds. Assault the next turn. The chapter champoin does the challange, even with the 2 hq's because he has to, that frees the CHM up to use his TH and charge attack with the chaplain bonus.

That looks like a pretty scary unit one you get into CC, and as you point out, with that number of bolt shots then you can also contribute to the first wave of a tac-pod list. Just remember to support them and you should be fine.

 Anpu42 wrote:
I guess I must be making up crap then if is it has happend

Just because it works for you doesn't mean anything, even against Meq that spams Plasma Guns, which is your best matchup, you'd still die quickly.

Alexi wrote:
I am testing a honor guard unit next weekend. I will let you know how it goes.

8 honor guard, 1 with chapter banner (not the relic) standard weapons.
Chapter Master, Thunder hammer, Sheild eternal, art armor
Chaplain, combi-flamer
Drop pod.
Imperial Fist tactics. Lots of bolt shots the turn I drop, plus the combi flamer, with the CHM to tank wounds. Assault the next turn. The chapter champoin does the challange, even with the 2 hq's because he has to, that frees the CHM up to use his TH and charge attack with the chaplain bonus.

I like it, the tanking Chapter Master is always good. The Chapter Champ sucking up the challenge seems very good to allow your other HQ's to beat down. Just avoid getting charged by Ork Mobs....

The game I am first trying them in is against either a Ultra Marines list or Space Wolfs. I believe he decided on SW. I admit it will be tough to support them where I intend on dropping them, but the melta, multi melta tac squad on the other side of the fortress of redemtion SHOULD draw a bunch of the fire the first turn.

As for supporting them, my DEV squads are taking MLx4 and LAS cannon x4 so I am hoping to cause a few wounds there as well

Capt-Crapulence wrote:

Poly Ranger wrote:Probably the best marine assault army on paper is carcharodons... A LOT better than BA for considerably cheaper.
If Tyberos breaks a unit your 14pt scoring marines are getting 4 st 5 attacks on the charge each. Thats just silly.
You can pod, rhino rush or footslog. If footslogging just throw in a few ordeo xenos inquisitors with hammerhand or prescience and rad granades and you're sorted.

sorry, not heard of the Carcharodons ... according to Warhammer Wiki they're Raven Guard successors? just wondering where the extra attack and strength comes from?
Have been considering an allied detachment for all my excess assault marines

Martel732 wrote:Make them work out that way. When shooting, you choose what dies, not your opponent. That's why one reason Taudar are broken and CC armies stink up the joint.

Vanguards are not as offensive as they were in 5th, but probably the best thing to give them is meltabombs so they can terrorize MCs.

Honor guards are fantastic on paper, but suffer from mobilization problems. They end up being average in practice, imo. Which good for a CC unit in 6th. They too suffer from weaponry jumping from AP 4 to AP 2 .

The bottom line is that there is no marine CC unit I'd put in a TAC list.

I do quite like the idea of giving them meltabombs and terrorizing MCs

Extra s and a come from a combination of CT and tyberos spec rules. CT means tac squads can take chainswords and get rage if they break an opponent. Whilst tyberos grants army wide +1s if his unit breaks another. Check FW CT for other CTs, they are free downloads.

Seeing as this is the tactics section, and this is a topic on Codex Marines CC units, how about a scenario?

we are Ultramarines, our opponents are Crimson Fists. They have 'Bolter Dill' and 'Tank Hunters', so I'm thinking some up-close-and-personal tactics would be a feasible option.
Hit them Hard and fast?

how would you go about Battling a Brother?
any obvious weapons, any obvious units, he would be sure to think of too...




Automatically Appended Next Post:
oh and at 1500p cap

Well, for dealing with SM, we have a few good tools (probably from 10,000 years of fighting heretics). Bringing plasma guns is always a safe bet against MEQ, as are ML firing Krak.

CC is less powerful simply because you can't sweep SM, so the trick of doing a few wounds and running down won't work very well. SM vs SM assaults are always very protracted, and should be avoided unless you need to tie up his shooting units. It's very likely to come down to a shootout.

Sternguard are very nice against marines, as they have either AP3 ammo or poisoned 2+ shots if you don't fancy the risk of Gets Hot and want to force saves against 2+ save units. Definitely try and get some in your list if you can.

Other than that, just go for the general things of strategy. Outmanoeuvre, pick your fights and play the mission. Hope that helps.

 Paradigm wrote:

Outmanoeuvre, pick your fights and play the mission.

This more than anything!

If you want to maximize CC first with your primary you want to run a chapter master with jump pack, teeth of Terra and another specialist weapon for potential to have 9 attacks on the charge minimum of 6 on the charge at strength 6 ap 3. Have a jump chaplain or jump Librarian to enhance him and Vanguard while expensive would keep up best unless you run him with plain assault troops. Have your Honor Guard with banner and a good mix of weapons to take all comers, I personally run them with a tech marine and rhino or razorback to speed them along. Iron Hands chapter tactics make them all more survive able. Also you could squeeze in a extra Chaplin in with the Recelsium Command Squad Formation. Those data slate formation don't count as your allied formation, you could even run an allied space Marine chapter to unlock another headquarter and Black Templars Tactics for Crisader Squads and great in challenges. This is just my opinion.

Drakka77 wrote:
If you want to maximize CC first with your primary you want to run a chapter master with jump pack, teeth of Terra and another specialist weapon for potential to have 9 attacks on the charge minimum of 6 on the charge at strength 6 ap 3.

Bike, Shield Eternal and either Burning Blade or a Thunder Hammer. Paying for an AP3 beatstick like that is a massive waste. Paying for a Jump Pack when you can get a Bike is too.

Not nessarily, in my area invul saves are everywhere so ap 2 doesn't help much, bike is no help melee except make you a little tougher same with the shield I was talking maximizing offensive capabilities. My set up for chapter master is the terror of my meta. And all those upgrades are cheap compared to burning blade. Rampage itself makes it worth it it me but the strike down is great too for it halfs the opponents initative.

Drakka77 wrote:
Not nessarily, in my area invul saves are everywhere so ap 2 doesn't help much, bike is no help melee except make you a little tougher same with the shield I was talking maximizing offensive capabilities. My set up for chapter master is the terror of my meta. And all those upgrades are cheap compared to burning blade. Rampage itself makes it worth it it me but the strike down is great too for it halfs the opponents initative.

Bike lets you both move 12" and reroll charge distance.

So does jump and it gives you deep strike, and hammer of wrath. It's personal preference as I said. Bike says ranged to me versus cc.

Drakka77 wrote:
So does jump and it gives you deep strike, and hammer of wrath. It's personal preference as I said. Bike says ranged to me versus cc.

Bikes give HoW too. All you're losing out on is Deep Strike, and if you're deep striking a melee Chapter Master with a Jump Pack I'm going to say you're doing it wrong, personal preference or not.

It's worked for me so wrong or not it's right in my case. Anyways we are suggesting tactics for cc, so eh. Also if you do inquisitors with your space marines Hammerhand psyic power and Ordo Xeno Rad Grenades make things interesting. Hammerhand adds plus one strength and rad is minus one toughness for the enemy including for instant death thresholds.

well, as my enemy are Crimson Fists, I didn't think i could particularly easily out-shoot the Bolter Meisters.
I know he's bringing Sternguard .. we can safely assume He's going to have 2 tactical squads and Pedro Kantor
As this is the manager of my local gamesworkshop, I think he might try something heavy like flying in a dreadnought and grav-centurion squad in a storm raven....because he can.
That all adds up to 1500 'roughly' .... but he could still go with something like honour guard, terminators, landraider

I was thinking of taking:
chapter master with Power fist and shield eternal - for Pedro
Honour Guard (4) w/ banner - MEQ slaughter
Landraider Redeemer - honourguard transport / MEQ slaughter
Multi-melta Dread in Drop Pod
Small Devastator squad (2 las cannons)
Tactical squad (x2) w/ plasma cannon, plasma gun and combi-grav
Stormtalon w/las cannons

was hoping to cripple lead units as fast as possible and still be able to deal with any tough mothers left over
drop pod dread turn one, assualt with honour guard/chapter master and dread by turn two?
hunker down with tacticals, and ride the storm from then on?

any thoughts?

Drakka77 wrote:
It's worked for me so wrong or not it's right in my case. Anyways we are suggesting tactics for cc, so eh.

Chapter Masters should never be in a jump pack over a bike. Bikes give relentless meaning you can fire your Orbital Bombardment even while moving. A jump pack guy would have to stand still for an entire turn which defeats the purpose of having a jump pack to begin with. There's really no reason to pay the extra points to be a chapter master over just a captain if you're going jump pack, as the main reason to do so is that orbital bombardment.

Bikes are fantastic for close combat, IMHO better than jump packs. It gives a jink save against high AP weaponry in the snap fire phase (not that a guy with an Iron Halo needs to worry about it), still get hammer of wrath, always get to move 12" and ignore terrain when rolling charge distances. Plus you can turbo boost on your first turn to be within charging distance on the second turn while deep striking assault marines are not in assault til turn 3 at best.

I get you like your dude and am glad you've had success with him. It's just a friendly suggestion on how to get even more out of the same unit. 5 points more is worth it for relentless alone on a chapter master.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Drakka77 wrote:
So does jump and it gives you deep strike, and hammer of wrath. It's personal preference as I said. Bike says ranged to me versus cc.

Bikes give HoW too. All you're losing out on is Deep Strike, and if you're deep striking a melee Chapter Master with a Jump Pack I'm going to say you're doing it wrong, personal preference or not.

iirc bikes don't give you fleet so no reroll for charge moves. Anywayz, bikes are >> than jumppacks. For 5 extra pts you get: +1T, 12' flat-out, jink save, tl bolter, relentless, constant HoW. U loose the possibility for getting fleet and deepstrike. I've tried out jump-pack infantry and they're just way worse than bikers. The only time they might be useful if when u're playing a siege map with lotsa walls and barricades. Yep, they're good here. Also, don't expect to get fleet and HoW cause in most cases u're better off with a 12' move.

What's left for jumppacks? Deepstrike and siege maps. Though, for ds purposes it competes with termi armour. And there are many cases when ds is not worth using at all like when u're facing interceptides. Ds is now generally used for melta/flamer deathdrop or farsight bomb. Something shooty all in all. Or distraction. But why would you use a 200 pts IC with retinue as distraction?..

 koooaei wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Drakka77 wrote:
So does jump and it gives you deep strike, and hammer of wrath. It's personal preference as I said. Bike says ranged to me versus cc.

Bikes give HoW too. All you're losing out on is Deep Strike, and if you're deep striking a melee Chapter Master with a Jump Pack I'm going to say you're doing it wrong, personal preference or not.

iirc bikes don't give you fleet so no reroll for charge moves. Anywayz, bikes are >> than jumppacks. For 5 extra pts you get: +1T, 12' flat-out, jink save, tl bolter, relentless, constant HoW. U loose the possibility for getting fleet and deepstrike.

Bikes reroll charge distances too.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Bikes reroll charge distances too.

I'm pouring over the Bikes and Jetbikes section in the BRB. Doesn't say anything about rerolling charge distances on bikes. It mentions assaults and special rules regarding what you're supposed to do in assaults with bikes that charge through terrain, but there is no mention of rerolling charge distances on bikes to be found.

What page does it say they can reroll charge distances on?

 SRSFACE wrote:

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Bikes reroll charge distances too.

I'm pouring over the Bikes and Jetbikes section in the BRB. Doesn't say anything about rerolling charge distances on bikes. It mentions assaults and special rules regarding what you're supposed to do in assaults with bikes that charge through terrain, but there is no mention of rerolling charge distances on bikes to be found.

What page does it say they can reroll charge distances on?

Huh, looks like you're right. My bad.

No sweat, Walrus. Trust me, man, I probably mis-read or mis-remember a rule every single game I play. There are a lot of rules and it takes up a lot of headspace. It's hard to keep it all straight!

It doesn't help that DS means turn 3 assault at the earliest. I really hate DS in general.

DS is situationally good for shooting units and just about universally terrible for assault units.