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Post by: wuestenfux
Well, I found that the GW plastic sprues have a much better quality than the PP ones. Currently, I'm collecting a Cyriss army and their resin sprues (consider Reductors) do not have the quality of that of Tactical Marines or Necron Warriors for instance.
What's your opinion?
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Post by: jonolikespie
My only experience with PP was a starter set and I found the quality pretty bad.
I'd never sad GW quality is good but I was quite put off by what I got from PP.
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Post by: AduroT
First off, you do not have resin Reductors, you have plastic Reductors. It's a different kind of plastic than what GW uses yes, but it's still just plastic. It's not a resin, nor is it some restic or plastic resin hybrid. It's just PVC plastic.
Secondly, yes, PP plastic is quite subpar when compared to GWs. I used to excuse that by PP being a smaller company not able to afford the big fancy machines that GW uses, but then Malifaux started making plastic figs of GWs level. PP really needs to upgrade their plastic technology and stop outsourcing it to china.
Zero problems with PPs metal though.
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Post by: Kroothawk
If it can't be glued with plastic cement, it isn't plastic for me. PP stuff can't be glued with plastic cement.
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Post by: Flashman
For all of GWs problems, I don't think many would complain about the quality of their plastic kits (aside from a few fiddly bits which don't quite work).
No experience of PP stuff.
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Post by: wuestenfux
 Kroothawk wrote:If it can't be glued with plastic cement, it isn't plastic for me. PP stuff can't be glued with plastic cement.
Right. The material is some kind of resin. It cannot be glued with the normal plastic glue.
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Post by: Eggs
You get different kinds of plastic. Plastic glue only works on one type.
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Post by: Some_Call_Me_Tim?
I've worked with quite a few PP "plastic" kits, and to be brutally honest, I'm 100% NOT a fan. They all have poor/shallow detaisl, with a good dose of misaligned casting, warped parts, and moldlines on the worst places possible.
The Wyrd Games hard plastics are, on the other hand, stellar. They're as good as GW plastics - crisp detail, easy to clean, and fairly strong. Plus they can be glued with super glue OR plastic cement.
The fact is that PP, a company that's AFAIK much bigger than Wyrd, is producing subpar work with a terrible material. It's really frustrating - PP metal kits are lovely. It would be nothing but a good thing if PP switched to hard plastic kits.
~Tim?
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Post by: morkian
You can quite happily glue the PP stuff with plastic cement it's called PVC cement as it is most definitely a plastic. Not being able to use polystyrene cement to glue something in no way makes it resin.
As for the quality PVC is just not as good as material as styrene but it can be pretty close. The problem with the PP plastics is the implementation is poor which leads to misalignment and horrendous placed mold lines. Combined with PVC being slightly harder makes it very difficult to clean up well.
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Post by: Kroothawk
morkian wrote:You can quite happily glue the PP stuff with plastic cement it's called PVC cement as it is most definitely a plastic. Not being able to use polystyrene cement to glue something in no way makes it resin.
You must be the first person on the internet to claim that one can glue PP "plastic" models with plastic cement.
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
You can, you just need to use the PVC cement plumbers do like this  not as easy to use as they come in big industrial tubs (and the fumes are nastier than many polystyrene cements) but certainly possible
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Post by: Tannhauser42
 AduroT wrote:Secondly, yes, PP plastic is quite subpar when compared to GWs. I used to excuse that by PP being a smaller company not able to afford the big fancy machines that GW uses, but then Malifaux started making plastic figs of GWs level. PP really needs to upgrade their plastic technology and stop outsourcing it to china.
The staggering irony in this statement is that Malifaux's plastics are, indeed, made in China. Wargames Factory produced the plastics (along with the plastics for Dreamforge Games and Kingdom Death).
So, the problem is not that PP outsourced their plastics to China, the problem is that they didn't outsource it to the best Chinese company (WGF).
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Post by: OrlandotheTechnicoloured
that's not to say I don't prefer polystyrene it has several advantages
1.It's used by more of the industry (so more compatible bits that can be glued with polystyrene cement)
2. It's a much more mature technology (for mini companies), whereas trying to use PVC for sharp detail is new so not so good (whether it can improve who knows)
3. At the moment the kits are better
4 cleanup is easier (but there's not as much difference as many think once you know how to work with polystyrene)
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Post by: hotsauceman1
GW is by far the better. The problem with PP is their minatures, sometimes even the old metal ones, have been hit with the ugly stick. An they are Mono-posed boor.
Here is what a think, I picked up a WG infantrymen and it looked like something the belonged in a board game, not on a Table Top wargame
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Post by: Grimtuff
Kroothawk wrote:morkian wrote:You can quite happily glue the PP stuff with plastic cement it's called PVC cement as it is most definitely a plastic. Not being able to use polystyrene cement to glue something in no way makes it resin.
You must be the first person on the internet to claim that one can glue PP "plastic" models with plastic cement.
Actually the plastic glue most people are familiar with is called "polystyrene cement". Which, as the name might suggest only works on polystyrene. 
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Post by: Tanakosyke22
Honestly, you would not be the first to complain, nor be the last about PP's plastic (hell, I get annoyed with them at times, and I prefer their metal over the plastic). While that being said, it seems that they are slowly getting better (save for the Cyriss models, which was a nightmare from what I heard) and I am fan of some of the multi-part kits (the two Menoth jacks I actually liked), but it is no near where the quality of GWs at all (even if I dropped their games). HonestluI think they need to switch the material or get a new person to make the kits.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Well, nothing more to add, really.
PP's PVC is rather terrible, I'm glad I quit Warmachine because when I look at my friend's deformed, crappy Cyriss models, I can't but pity him.
GW has great plastic tech, although some of the designs can be pretty ridiculous (Heldrake).
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Post by: Kroothawk
I am a bit reluctant to praise a company for reaching the plastic quality of Airfix models of the 70s.
Look at some Gundam models of the last 10-20 years to see what is possible.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Kroothawk wrote:I am a bit reluctant to praise a company for reaching the plastic quality of Airfix models of the 70s.
Look at some Gundam models of the last 10-20 years to see what is possible.
I don't necessarily disagree, although I've never owned an Airfix kit to my knowledge. I know that Revell and Italeri kits I had as a kid were pretty terrible. But I do have a few Japanese kits with wizardry such as multi-coloured sprues, and sprues with undercuts.
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Post by: Cyporiean
Kroothawk wrote:Look at some Gundam models of the last 10-20 years to see what is possible.
Its a shame that a GW kit can easily cost twice of much as a Bandai kit, and the Bandai kit will outshine it quite easily.
Dreamforge's mechs are pretty close in quality and features to some of Bandai's offerings, it wouldn't surprise me if there were a few ex-Bandai employees at WGF.
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Post by: Grimtuff
 lord_blackfang wrote:Well, nothing more to add, really.
PP's PVC is rather terrible, I'm glad I quit Warmachine because when I look at my friend's deformed, crappy Cyriss models, I can't but pity him.
GW has great plastic tech, although some of the designs can be pretty ridiculous (Heldrake).
To be fair, the CoC models are a pretty egregious example. Though I'm not gonna lie that experience of cleaning them has made me reluctant with PP's plastics.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
 Eggs wrote:You get different kinds of plastic. Plastic glue only works on one type.
Right, which is why the industry uses the term "plastic" as jargon to identify the specific types of plastic that work with plastic glue. Everything else is called "restic" or [something else], since they feel a bit like "plastic" but don't satisfy the most important condition.
PP's non-metal minis, whatever you want to call the material, have none of the advantages of plastic or metal, except for being light and having (softly detailed, mold line-riddled) undercuts.
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Post by: -Loki-
The only material referred to as restic is resin/plastic hybrid material which PP is most certainly not. It's plastic, more accurately PVC. Most other companies use polystyrene, I different type of plastic.
When you buy some plastic cement, or if you have some now, look at the label. It will specifically say polystyrene cement. It's NOT what you need when bonding something not polystyrene. But that doesn't make those non polystyrene plastics and less plastic.
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Post by: Schmapdi
PP's plastic is indeed lacking quite a bit. I was happy with the end result of my cleaning, but not happy with the ridiculous amount of effort to get to that point.
A few months ago they did advertise a job opening for a new head of quality control with a list of duties that seemed to make it pretty clear the idea was to improve their plastics. No idea if the job has been filled or not yet - and even it has I'm sure it will take a good few months to really start seeing results.
Also - plastic glue is for suckers. Use super glue, on EVERYTHING.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Again, we are talking terminology in a specific field. In the context of miniatures, plastic refers to polystyrene or any other theoretical material that bonds with the most common plastic (polystyrene) cements on the market. People use the word as a shorthand because it is easy to say and conceptualize, and the meaning is crystal clear in context. Think of it as a nickname if you have to, but that's how the rest of humanity seems to work.
Now, as for PP's material... it feels a lot to me like the material Mantic calls restic. Is it actually different? Or is this just another case of sensible people coming up with an instantly-understandable catchall term to describe the class of nonmetal materials that are not traditional resin* yet won't work with plastic glue? Because, there should be a term for that.
*Yes, I know resin is technically a plastic, too, yet people keep calling it resin just because everyone across the industry can agree on that word.
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Post by: Sidstyler
 Flashman wrote:For all of GWs problems, I don't think many would complain about the quality of their plastic kits (aside from a few fiddly bits which don't quite work).
I guess it depends on whether or not you consider the design of the model itself as part of the overall quality of the kit. I do, personally, so I often do complain about it.
PP's plastics are pretty bad though, I have to admit. I didn't used to think so but when I bought the plastic Retribution starter I was kinda put-off by how bad the warcaster looked in comparison to the photo on the box art. The studio model seemed to have much sharper detail than the one I was holding. I hesitate to say I felt "ripped off" but I was still kind of disappointed, and eventually just stored the box away somewhere and haven't touched it since.
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Post by: mitch_rifle
Yeah bought the starter set but the models put me off, horrid mold lines, difficulty to clean up soft detail, and horrid posing and nearly impossible to pose individually.
not worth what they charge for what you get, yes GW is expensive but the kits and models are for the most part exceptional
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Post by: Agamemnon2
Privateer Press quality is fairly low for what you pay for their models, and you generally have a choice between nightmarish-to-assemble metals or lackluster and ill-designed plastics. I can only suppose they've given up on trying to compete on terms of sculpt quality. Even most of their colossals are a pale imitation of the quality and detail of a similarly costed if not cheaper Dreamforge Leviathan.
Of course, since manyWarmachine players are hardcore tournament types, the aesthetic qualities of the game pieces becomes meaningless for an important subset of the hobby. I've known a fellow who would have gladly substituted his miniatures for featureless plastic pogs simply because they had nothing but contempt for the miniatures half of the game. He was just in it for the ruleset and competitive aspects.
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Post by: Harriticus
Plastic mini's are the last thing of quality from GW. GW overall has worse quality than PP though since the Finecast fiasco.
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Post by: mitch_rifle
 Harriticus wrote:Plastic mini's are the last thing of quality from GW. GW overall has worse quality than PP though since the Finecast fiasco.
Besides the initial disaster of release, finecast for the most part was really good, the resin was much better than metal, but to say that GW has worse quality OVERALL due to a small part of their range being fine-cast, compared to PP which almost their entire range suffers from poor quality, is quite frankly silly
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Post by: Backfire
Kroothawk wrote:I am a bit reluctant to praise a company for reaching the plastic quality of Airfix models of the 70s.
Having quite a bit of experience in putting together both '70s Airfix kits (and Revell etc) and GW kits, I can safely say that old Airfix kits are pretty terrible when compared to GW or any other post-1990 model kit manufacturer.  They require loads of work to look good.
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Post by: PhantomViper
 mitch_rifle wrote: Harriticus wrote:Plastic mini's are the last thing of quality from GW. GW overall has worse quality than PP though since the Finecast fiasco.
Besides the initial disaster of release, finecast for the most part was really good, the resin was much better than metal, but to say that GW has worse quality OVERALL due to a small part of their range being fine-cast, compared to PP which almost their entire range suffers from poor quality, is quite frankly silly
Except that that is just not true, I can still find finecast models released today with missing detail and bubbles. And how is it superior to metal? Go tell that to a friend of mine who is one of the best painters that I have ever seen when he found his beautifully painted Dark Elder Incubi, that he had spend hundreds of hours on, had drooped and sagged to the ground from just being stored at room temperature! "Better than metal" my behind!
Also white knight much? You come here to defend finecast of all things by saying that its just a small part of GW's range, but are happy to berate PP in its entirety for their plastics that are an even smaller part of their's... 
Yes, PP's plastics are pretty high maintenance to clean up and some of them are incredibly badly produced with flash and mold lines running straight through details on the miniatures. This is especially notorious on Cyriss models for some reason.
However, PP has acknowledged these problems and stated that they are trying to work on possible solutions to solve them.
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Post by: Eggs
 BobtheInquisitor wrote: Eggs wrote:You get different kinds of plastic. Plastic glue only works on one type.
Right, which is why the industry uses the term "plastic" as jargon to identify the specific types of plastic that work with plastic glue. Everything else is called "restic" or [something else], since they feel a bit like "plastic" but don't satisfy the most important condition.
PP's non-metal minis, whatever you want to call the material, have none of the advantages of plastic or metal, except for being light and having (softly detailed, mold line-riddled) undercuts.
Does it? In twenty+ years of wargaming, I've never seen the industry call PVC plastic restic, or any other name other than PVC, plastic, or PVC plastic. The most important condition as to whether something is plastic, is not whether you can glue it with polystyrene cement. It is whether it is made of plastic or not.
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Post by: Grimtuff
Eggs wrote: BobtheInquisitor wrote: Eggs wrote:You get different kinds of plastic. Plastic glue only works on one type.
Right, which is why the industry uses the term "plastic" as jargon to identify the specific types of plastic that work with plastic glue. Everything else is called "restic" or [something else], since they feel a bit like "plastic" but don't satisfy the most important condition.
PP's non-metal minis, whatever you want to call the material, have none of the advantages of plastic or metal, except for being light and having (softly detailed, mold line-riddled) undercuts.
Does it? In twenty+ years of wargaming, I've never seen the industry call PVC plastic restic, or any other name other than PVC, plastic, or PVC plastic. The most important condition as to whether something is plastic, is not whether you can glue it with polystyrene cement. It is whether it is made of plastic or not.
"Restic" is one of those portmanteau buzzwords that came along about the same time Finecast did. The old Warzone plastics were PVC IIRC. I wonder what they called what they were made of back in the 90's? 
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Post by: Steve steveson
Backfire wrote: Kroothawk wrote:I am a bit reluctant to praise a company for reaching the plastic quality of Airfix models of the 70s.
Having quite a bit of experience in putting together both '70s Airfix kits (and Revell etc) and GW kits, I can safely say that old Airfix kits are pretty terrible when compared to GW or any other post-1990 model kit manufacturer. They require loads of work to look good.
Ye, I agree. I don't know about 70's but mid 80's to mid 90's "Airfix" kits (I.E. all the model kits we built as kids that were all known as Airfix whatever the brand) were rubbish compared to GW kit's then and now. Stuff required allot of work to line up, loads of gaps and often allot of ill thought out casting that made them a nightmare to put together. They also often lacked detail. GW plastics, IMO, are still some of the best around. You pay through the nose for it, but they do know their stuff. They are not perfect, with some of the larger kits needing a little work to put together, but they are at least solid enough to put up with some pushing and pulling.
PP's are horrid. There metals are IMO ugly, but that is personal taste. They seem to be well detailed. I can't comment on the quality of them. But PVC plastics? PVC is for toys and plumbing, not wargames.
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Post by: prplehippo
AduroT wrote: I used to excuse that by PP being a smaller company not able to afford the big fancy machines that GW uses, but then Malifaux started making plastic figs of GWs level. PP really needs to upgrade their plastic technology and stop outsourcing it to china
That's not really the problem though. They outsource their operation to China and that company does have the ability and technology (and the similar machines GW uses as well).
This is more an issue of the PVC itself. Specific materials have their good points and bad. PVC models can be made in fewer parts with more undercuts, so the parts have to pulled from the machine by hand when the plastic is still soft unlike polystyrene which is ejected from the tool using ejector pins. This means the models will warp more than polystyrene. PVC is also a much harder plastic so it's not as fluid as polystyrene so you have to have larger gates to fill the cavities and it's harder to clean of mold lines.
Another reason the quality of PP models is becoming lower is that the mold room has too much say in how the models are made. A lot of detail gets removed from the model because the moldmakers/casters say "It's too dificult". The bar for quality constantly keeps lowering because they keep asking for more and more to be removed so their job is made easier, instead of trying to find ways of making it work.
PP lowering levels of quality has more to do with the inexperience/incompetence their management than any other factor.
 wuestenfux wrote:Right. The material is some kind of resin. It cannot be glued with the normal plastic glue.
Wrong. Its PVC. Stop calling it resin or restic. PVC is a single component plastic sold in pellet form which is heated until it becomes fluid to fill the cavities. Resins are multiple component plastics that need to be mixed and have a "cure time" before setting.
 Some_Call_Me_Tim? wrote:The fact is that PP, a company that's AFAIK much bigger than Wyrd, is producing subpar work with a terrible material. It's really frustrating - PP metal kits are lovely. It would be nothing but a good thing if PP switched to hard plastic kits
Again, it's more an issue of PP poor management than anything else. PP are also looking into polystyrene kits. At Lock & Load both Ed and Ben (one of the sculptors) said the Cyriss Battle Engine was going to be a traditional polystyrene kit (Ben also joked that it looked like a giant "butt-plug").
 Cyporiean wrote:Dreamforge's mechs are pretty close in quality and features to some of Bandai's offerings, it wouldn't surprise me if there were a few ex-Bandai employees at WGF.
I just got done painting one of these for a commission. It's a nice model but when you look at it closely it has some flaws. There are "tool marks" all over that thing. Almost as bad as cleaning a 3D print's build lines.
PhantomViper wrote: mitch_rifle wrote:Yes, PP's plastics are pretty high maintenance to clean up and some of them are incredibly badly produced with flash and mold lines running straight through details on the miniatures. This is especially notorious on Cyriss models for some reason.
However, PP has acknowledged these problems and stated that they are trying to work on possible solutions to solve them.
Cyriss was rushed into production because they wanted to have them for Lock & Load. I got to see the test castings from China for the Cyriss models and they looked just as horrible then. Since the Cryx plastics still have the same poor quality issues and it's been a few years since their release I wouldn't count on any changes to the Cyriss models anytime soon.
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Post by: frozenwastes
I'm indifferent to PP's plastic kits. I don't really buy them now, but I wouldn't say I regret purchasing the ones I did. They take more work in terms of both mould line removal and hot water treatment for straightening pieces, but the end result is fine.
Every time I work on a styrene plastic kit though, I love the experience. It doesn't feel like I'm fighting with the material. That said, there's no way I'm going to be buying any more of these type of kits from GW as I think their games are terrible and prices are bad. And a lot of the designs are really terrible and cartoony. I'm loving the huge variety of styrene miniature kits from Perry, Plastic Soldier Compandy, Wyrd, WGF, DreamForge, Warlord, FireForge, Victrix and others to ever go back to GW.
At this point I still play PP's games because they are good in terms of game play, but haven't purchased a miniature in close to a year. I don't play GW's games and haven't bought their stuff in event longer. I use my existing collection with other rules.
A third plastic that might be relevent to the conversation is the Reaper Bones stuff. It's also vinyl based, but I don't think it's PVC. It's flexible, but that has yet to be an issue for me and mould lines can be removed with a file without any trouble. The price is great and they paint up great. I've started making some units for Warmachine/Hordes out of these figures as well.
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Post by: Dais
When PP first revealed the PVC plastic material, I was excited for the possibilities of undercuts on plastic. As time went by I realized how little care went into the molds and how poorly the mold lines were placed. I am not a fan in general but I have seen a few kits that were quite nice. The legion warspears went together well with quick cleanup and the mold like placement on the second wave of warjack kits was much better. It is a shame that all reversed for the convergence release.
I still believe the material has potential, but the factories making the minis seem to not be used to casting for mold line placement and most kits seem to fall short. PP either needs to send experts over to China to help cut the molds or they need to find a new factory with miniatures expertise. The current state of affairs has customers paying for the learning curve of the factory and buying low-quality kits.
All of this plastic snobbery is laughable. It wasn't long ago that GW pushed plastic minis to the mainstream in the first place and I'm sure they had people saying things like "plastic is for children's' toys" in stores then. I've seen people rally against metal models as well in the last few years. Since the finecast disaster some people even believe resin is inferior. Styrene plastic is NOT the only material capable of producing a quality mini.
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Post by: mechanicalhorizon
 Dais wrote:PP either needs to send experts over to China to help cut the molds or they need to find a new factory with miniatures expertise. The current state of affairs has customers paying for the learning curve of the factory and buying low-quality kits.
PP doesn't have any "experts". No one at PP has any "hand on" experience with plastics. What information they do know they get from hearsay or the factory in China. One of the sculptors has a "little" bit of info on plastics, but that's also hearsay information, not "hands on". The only guy they had that did have actual "hands on" experience with plastics doesn't work for them anymore.
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Post by: wuestenfux
 mechanicalhorizon wrote: Dais wrote:PP either needs to send experts over to China to help cut the molds or they need to find a new factory with miniatures expertise. The current state of affairs has customers paying for the learning curve of the factory and buying low-quality kits.
PP doesn't have any "experts". No one at PP has any "hand on" experience with plastics. What information they do know they get from hearsay or the factory in China. One of the sculptors has a "little" bit of info on plastics, but that's also hearsay information, not "hands on". The only guy they had that did have actual "hands on" experience with plastics doesn't work for them anymore.
Sounds like inside information. An expert in this field should be mandatory. Look at the poor Cyriss model line.
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Post by: Phobos
So far my own experience with PP plastic has been the Hordes 2 player battle box.
I am underwhelmed.
It's not enough to sour me on the game, but the flash is really excessive and mold lines suck. Also the packaging is terrible. A set of 5 guys are just dumped in a bag in pieces with no directions on how they are supposed to go together. I spent a good 2 hours cleaning them and they still aren't perfect.
Games Workshop plastics are much better IMO.
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Post by: Unit1126PLL
Games workshops designs are better, IMO (though, crucially, I recognize this as a subjective view). They are less cartoony (though, again, that isn't to say they aren't cartoony at all - they are). And some of their newer kits make me die a bit inside (Thunderwolf Cav - the fluff was bad enough..).
My experience with PP plastics has been a resounding meh. They're fragile, still rather monopose, and hard to clean.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
So, can any of our experienced chemical engineers please recommend a solvent that will work with my Mantic PVC models the way plastic styrene glue works with GW plastic? Is there any tube-sized option that would be convenient to use for modelling?
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Post by: Grimtuff
BobtheInquisitor wrote:So, can any of our experienced chemical engineers please recommend a solvent that will work with my Mantic PVC models the way plastic styrene glue works with GW plastic? Is there any tube-sized option that would be convenient to use for modelling?
Missed all the posts about PVC cement then...? 
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Post by: 40KNobz11
Only bought one set from PP and personally I really think GW product was better quality. Im sticking with my 40k orks but I had to give PP a try...
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Post by: Eggs
BobtheInquisitor wrote:So, can any of our experienced chemical engineers please recommend a solvent that will work with my Mantic PVC models the way plastic styrene glue works with GW plastic? Is there any tube-sized option that would be convenient to use for modelling?
Yes. It's called... PVC cement. Unlikely to get it in tubes, as it's usually used by plumbers to weld PVC pipe together, but the tubs often have a built in brush applicator.
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Post by: paulson games
wuestenfux wrote: mechanicalhorizon wrote: Dais wrote:PP either needs to send experts over to China to help cut the molds or they need to find a new factory with miniatures expertise. The current state of affairs has customers paying for the learning curve of the factory and buying low-quality kits.
PP doesn't have any "experts". No one at PP has any "hand on" experience with plastics. What information they do know they get from hearsay or the factory in China. One of the sculptors has a "little" bit of info on plastics, but that's also hearsay information, not "hands on". The only guy they had that did have actual "hands on" experience with plastics doesn't work for them anymore.
Sounds like inside information. An expert in this field should be mandatory. Look at the poor Cyriss model line.
Mechnicalhorizon did work in the casting departments for both GW & PP so he would know. (he's also done sculpting for both in addition to Forge World)
I've heard similar statements about the plastics & pvc from other PP employees, all their experience is from outside the company.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
 Grimtuff wrote: BobtheInquisitor wrote:So, can any of our experienced chemical engineers please recommend a solvent that will work with my Mantic PVC models the way plastic styrene glue works with GW plastic? Is there any tube-sized option that would be convenient to use for modelling?
Missed all the posts about PVC cement then...?
The only one I saw was a tub-sized bottle for plumbers. Is there a tube or not?
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Post by: silent25
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Grimtuff wrote: BobtheInquisitor wrote:So, can any of our experienced chemical engineers please recommend a solvent that will work with my Mantic PVC models the way plastic styrene glue works with GW plastic? Is there any tube-sized option that would be convenient to use for modelling?
Missed all the posts about PVC cement then...?
The only one I saw was a tub-sized bottle for plumbers. Is there a tube or not?
I have transferred it to bottle containers for easier application. Just like putting GW paint in dropper bottles. This wasn't for modeling though and was for piping applications.
You are probably looking at something more viscous. Haven't used it, but might want to try Weld-On #2007. Most viscous of PVC glues and does fuse the parts together.
http://www.eplastics.com/Plastic/PVC-Vinyl-Glue/WELD-ON-PLASTIC-ADHESIVE-GLUE-IPS-2007-PINT
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Thanks! That link is very helpful. Now, I am eyeing my pile of restic crap with a bit more interest...
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Post by: Breotan
Now if only there was some of that what could work on Forge World's resin. :/
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Post by: Big Mac
I had thought about starting warmachine until I saw the models, they are not my taste of sculpt, the actual model my friend had quite a few misfit cavities that needed green stuff work= to GW 5th edition WHFB or older models. I'll stick with GW for models as they're still the best in plastics.
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Post by: scarletsquig
It is worth noting that the plastic used by PP is apparently almost exactly the same stuff used for Mantic's "restic" or resin plastic material.
Some sort of PVC formulation. Not as good as a nice sprue in any way.
Harder to clean up, harder to glue, sometimes warps, generally more expensive.
I think PP would do very well out of making actual sprues for their miniatures.
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Post by: Platuan4th
 scarletsquig wrote:
I think PP would do very well out of making actual sprues for their miniatures.
They DO have actual sprues, they're simply clipped off before packaging.
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
scarletsquig wrote:It is worth noting that the plastic used by PP is apparently almost exactly the same stuff used for Mantic's "restic" or resin plastic material.
Some sort of PVC formulation. Not as good as a nice sprue in any way.
Harder to clean up, harder to glue, sometimes warps, generally more expensive.
And both of those are the same sort as Reaper uses for Bones. And just barely removed from the type of plastic used to make polymer clays like FIMO and Sculpey. All of them glue up fine using PVC cement.
PVC, like most plastics can be formulated dozens of different ways, from soft and flexible to rather rigid. They can be done very well, Privateer though is relying on a rather hands off method for creating their plastics. Assuming the factory has the experts, they let them make determinations which really should be finalized by the designers as opposed to technicians.
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Post by: frozenwastes
I think PP's individual boxes are hit or miss. I helped a local player assemble his two player starter and it was great. Then he bought a plastic menoth heavy kit and it had way more flash and required the hot water treatment on the legs and weapons.
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Post by: Krellnus
I recently picked up the Retribution of Scyrah heavy myrmidon kit, was pretty annoyed that it's made from PVC rather than polystyrene, I wasn't too disappointed by the lack of posability though, I attribute that to being spoilt by GW's better kits.
Still, what would possess someone to make miniatures out of PVC, especially when polystyrene is available, which has properties much more desirable for the purpose?
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Post by: Dais
 Krellnus wrote:I
Still, what would possess someone to make miniatures out of PVC, especially when polystyrene is available, which has properties much more desirable for the purpose?
If everything went perfect with the design and casting, it would not be a bad medium at all. The stuff is tough, light, and allows undercuts. From a technical perspective that set of attributes is a dream. Glue isn't a big problem since superglue holds so strong you can't pull the plugs out of their sockets. The problems of horrible mold lines and bent pieces spoil it. And boy, do the mold lines spoil it on some kits.
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Post by: Krellnus
Dais wrote: Krellnus wrote:I
Still, what would possess someone to make miniatures out of PVC, especially when polystyrene is available, which has properties much more desirable for the purpose?
If everything went perfect with the design and casting, it would not be a bad medium at all. The stuff is tough, light, and allows undercuts. From a technical perspective that set of attributes is a dream. Glue isn't a big problem since superglue holds so strong you can't pull the plugs out of their sockets. The problems of horrible mold lines and bent pieces spoil it. And boy, do the mold lines spoil it on some kits.
I dunno, polystyrene is just way easier to work with and holds detail better (relative to PVC) and has a better room for error, not to say that errors don't occur ofc, but honestly, if I have to superglue something together, I'd prefer it to be resin since it both holds detail better and allows undercuts.
If I were to guess though, since PVC shouldn't warp normally, I would say the guys actually making the kit, pull it out of the mould way before its cooled down, which dramatically increases the chance of warping.
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Post by: wowsmash
Didn't care for the mold line placement but I didn't have any trouble gluing the model's together. I just used CA glue.
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Post by: wuestenfux
 wowsmash wrote:Didn't care for the mold line placement but I didn't have any trouble gluing the model's together. I just used CA glue.
What kind of glue is this, please.
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Post by: Rainyday
wuestenfux wrote: wowsmash wrote:Didn't care for the mold line placement but I didn't have any trouble gluing the model's together. I just used CA glue.
What kind of glue is this, please.
I think he means CyanoAcrylate a.k.a superglue.
I normally use Locktite gel (blue) for everything (resin, metal, GW plastic, PP plastic, finecast, restic, bones, my own fingers) and I've yet to find a material that it can't stick together with a pin or two.
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Post by: morkian
wuestenfux wrote: wowsmash wrote:Didn't care for the mold line placement but I didn't have any trouble gluing the model's together. I just used CA glue.
What kind of glue is this, please.
By CA I'm assuming they mean cyanoacrylate which is the chemical name for superglue.
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Post by: Bossk_Hogg
 Sean_OBrien wrote: scarletsquig wrote:It is worth noting that the plastic used by PP is apparently almost exactly the same stuff used for Mantic's "restic" or resin plastic material.
Some sort of PVC formulation. Not as good as a nice sprue in any way.
Harder to clean up, harder to glue, sometimes warps, generally more expensive.
And both of those are the same sort as Reaper uses for Bones. And just barely removed from the type of plastic used to make polymer clays like FIMO and Sculpey. All of them glue up fine using PVC cement.
I have PP PVC models, Mantic "restic", and Bones. Bones is different and considerably more rubbery in my experience.
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Post by: frozenwastes
Yes, but his point was that it was vinyl based and PVC cement works on it.
I've had zero problems with superglue on any and all of these miniatures. Including bones conversions where I pinned and glued rigid metal parts to the flexible bones. No paint issues nor breaking.
The PVC plastic is working for privateer in that people keep buying it and they keep making it and while it's not super easy to use like a styrene kit, it's okay for the intended purpose.
I hope they upgrade yet again and go with a styrene option at some point, but I don't hate their plastics in general anymore.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
AduroT wrote:First off, you do not have resin Reductors, you have plastic Reductors. It's a different kind of plastic than what GW uses yes, but it's still just plastic. It's not a resin, nor is it some restic or plastic resin hybrid. It's just PVC plastic.
Secondly, yes, PP plastic is quite subpar when compared to GWs. I used to excuse that by PP being a smaller company not able to afford the big fancy machines that GW uses, but then Malifaux started making plastic figs of GWs level. PP really needs to upgrade their plastic technology and stop outsourcing it to china.
Zero problems with PPs metal though.
While they may be plastic, they are produced using the same process as "restic" etc. (also known as rapid injection molding) within a rubber mold. The reason they don't go to plastic sprues ala wyrd is because plastic injection molding still can't capture that level of detail. Yes, Wyrds models are amazing, but they don't have the same level of detail as privateer minis (and when I mean level of detail, I'm referring to undercuts and non-planar details).
Otherwise, yeah, the plastic that they use is just terrible, ive yet to find a glue that actually gets a decent hold on it.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
I'm an enormous fan of PP's rules, universe and art, but the state of their actual models is just... sigh.
I picked up the Clockwork Angels and Aurora from the most recently released Convergence of Cyriss faction, and the metal models are beautiful, but amazingly fiddly. The plastic kits, however... frankly, the pictures of the Convergence starter box, with some of the most obnoxious mold lines I have seen in years, has put me almost completely off of the faction.
Beyond the issues of quality control, there is the issue of shortcuts: take a look in the new release threads about the Cephalyx. This is the new, hot and interesting stuff, and the promo shots clearly show the new heavy kit has one body pose;
Seriously, the value of having a single kit for the heavy 'Jacks (Monstrosities in this case) is clear, but the compromises seem too extreme. This carries over to infantry kits, where there is very limited poses, and frequently repeated poses.
Again, all of this is understandable, but at a certain point the question must be asked, "is PP losing sales to (new) players because their models are simply not up to a current standard?" I don't know how widespread it is, but I can attest personally that I have put off buying WM/H kits that I want because I am afraid of the quality of the kits I have seen.
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Post by: Papaskittels
Well i guess im just going to throw in my .02$
I honestly really prefer the PP Plastics to GW Plastics. Even if they do share alot of the troublesome property's that you find in resin models. Im not sure what it is exactly, they have absolutely no superior qualitys compared to GW but i just tend to like them a little more. (Possibly just bias because i prefer WM/H rules over 40k/fantasy)
I really wish that PP models had a little more Variety to the options they come with (BITZ) because I find most my Warmahordes models are about half green-stuff. The plastic they use does have a good amount of flaws in detail retention, but its not really something I personally mind. They are a new company and have a lot of time to refine their ways of making minis.
In the Pewter department, I would have to say PP takes the cake. GW had really big flaws in their metal models (Not to say PP doesn't have any) But I honestly have no real complaints on the PP metal models. I find the sculpts to be phenomenal, and have a GREAT attention to details.
Either way they are to great company's with some beautiful work. -Papa Automatically Appended Next Post:  Buzzsaw wrote:I'm an enormous fan of PP's rules, universe and art, but the state of their actual models is just... sigh.
I picked up the Clockwork Angels and Aurora from the most recently released Convergence of Cyriss faction, and the metal models are beautiful, but amazingly fiddly. The plastic kits, however... frankly, the pictures of the Convergence starter box, with some of the most obnoxious mold lines I have seen in years, has put me almost completely off of the faction.
Beyond the issues of quality control, there is the issue of shortcuts: take a look in the new release threads about the Cephalyx. This is the new, hot and interesting stuff, and the promo shots clearly show the new heavy kit has one body pose;
Seriously, the value of having a single kit for the heavy 'Jacks (Monstrosities in this case) is clear, but the compromises seem too extreme. This carries over to infantry kits, where there is very limited poses, and frequently repeated poses.
Again, all of this is understandable, but at a certain point the question must be asked, "is PP losing sales to (new) players because their models are simply not up to a current standard?" I don't know how widespread it is, but I can attest personally that I have put off buying WM/H kits that I want because I am afraid of the quality of the kits I have seen.
Those models are a disaster! oh my dear lord that is terrible! Its a really cool sculpt but.... ouch... that looks like you have three identical models.
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Post by: frozenwastes
Buzzsaw wrote:Again, all of this is understandable, but at a certain point the question must be asked, "is PP losing sales to (new) players because their models are simply not up to a current standard?" I don't know how widespread it is, but I can attest personally that I have put off buying WM/H kits that I want because I am afraid of the quality of the kits I have seen.
A negligible amount, if any. Every new player I have met seems to like not being overwhelmed by their initial experience. There's a reason GW doesn't offer full customization figures in their starter sets and Privateer doesn't in most of their line.
Do I like the lack of customization? No. Do I think it costs them sales? Not really. I don't think my preferences are indicative of the preferences of the average customer.
That said, I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm. Anything, really.
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Post by: fullheadofhair
 frozenwastes wrote:Buzzsaw wrote:Again, all of this is understandable, but at a certain point the question must be asked, "is PP losing sales to (new) players because their models are simply not up to a current standard?" I don't know how widespread it is, but I can attest personally that I have put off buying WM/H kits that I want because I am afraid of the quality of the kits I have seen.
A negligible amount, if any. Every new player I have met seems to like not being overwhelmed by their initial experience. There's a reason GW doesn't offer full customization figures in their starter sets and Privateer doesn't in most of their line.
Do I like the lack of customization? No. Do I think it costs them sales? Not really. I don't think my preferences are indicative of the preferences of the average customer.
That said, I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm. Anything, really.
I am one. Over the years I have bought Cryxx, Khador and the religiously looking ones. For hoardes I have bought Everblight. Everytime I have returned virtually all the models because frankly outside of one or two models per faction the majority of the range is sub-par and I just cannot bring myself to build them let alone paint them. So, I am one of those where the quality of the models is a big factor on whether or not I play a game. I am fairly sure I am not a minority with that opinion.
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Post by: Laughing Man
frozenwastes wrote:That said, I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm. Anything, really.
Because organic models and ball joints don't mix, unless you want to do a lot of green stuff work to fix the ugly joint. In which case, why aren't you just reposing it yourself?
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Post by: plastictrees
There are clearly enough mechanical components (arm bands, collars etc.) to have made ball joints work, had they cared to.
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Post by: Laughing Man
 plastictrees wrote:There are clearly enough mechanical components (arm bands, collars etc.) to have made ball joints work, had they cared to.
With that much exposed skin and musculature? It'd read as wrong unless you replaced the entire shoulder joint with a warjack-style ball and socket (which would just look weird) or (for the head) put a massive collar on it which completely hides the neck and most of the shoulders. If you're going to do muscles though, it pays to do them right and not end up with weird bicep bulges on a straight arm (as an example).
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Post by: mechanicalhorizon
chaos0xomega wrote:While they may be plastic, they are produced using the same process as "restic" etc. (also known as rapid injection molding) within a rubber mold. The reason they don't go to plastic sprues ala wyrd is because plastic injection molding still can't capture that level of detail. Yes, Wyrds models are amazing, but they don't have the same level of detail as privateer minis (and when I mean level of detail, I'm referring to undercuts and non-planar details)
PP plastics are produced on the same injection molding machines with steel tools as polystyrene, not rubber molds.
When the PVC is done being injected into the mold and the tool opens, it is manually pulled out of the tool by a worker (not by ejector pins like polystyrene sprues are).
Since the PVC is still hot and soft it flexes when pulled out of the mold, then it is dunked into a trough of cold water to harden. That's one of the reasons PVC models are deformed so much when you get them. The factory doesn't take the time to straighten out the bent parts.
 Papaskittels wrote:In the Pewter department, I would have to say PP takes the cake. GW had really big flaws in their metal models (Not to say PP doesn't have any) But I honestly have no real complaints on the PP metal models. I find the sculpts to be phenomenal, and have a GREAT attention to details.
What you are talking about are 2 different things. One is sculpting quality, the other is casting quality. When it comes to casting quality PP and GW (and most other companies) are pretty much on par with each other (and at both companies we did quality checking and comparison of other companies models).
The biggest difference between the two is one company is very professional and has organized, standardized procedures and SOP's that are easy to follow by anyone, produce consistent results, make it easy to train new staff and get very efficient results. There is transparency in the departments since you have to be able to function efficiently even when a manager is out sick or on vacation.
The other company has none of that. They have no concept of standardization or streamlining and simplifying procedures. If an issue occurs they have no organized method of trouble-shooting since there is no standardization in manufacturing so any fixes get added on top of other procedures. That combined with no written SOP's for anything makes it difficult for them to train new staff and also secures the managers' positions since no one else knows how to do their job. There is no transparency in any of their departments.
I'll leave it to you to decide which is which.
frozenwastes wrote:I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm.
Because Matt doesn't like ball joints. .
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Post by: Laughing Man
That's not entirely fair. There's a ton of ball joints on the various Warjacks. It's just the Beasts (and now Monstrosities, of course) that don't use them.
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Post by: mechanicalhorizon
 Laughing Man wrote:
That's not entirely fair. There's a ton of ball joints on the various Warjacks. It's just the Beasts (and now Monstrosities, of course) that don't use them.
That's just what Ron had told me. Several times over the years when a model was being made we would run into various issues, how the joints work was one of them, but in true PP fashion nothing is ever consistent.
One time I had suggested we use ball joints, since we had before, but Ron said that Matt didn't like ball joints so we went with something else.
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Post by: AduroT
The problem with the Ceph Monstrosities is that the weapon arms change at the forearms, leaving them all in the same pose. I like how the Circle Warpwolves go together where the arms are swapped at the shoulders, which lets the different arms hold at different angles, plus the heads that look in different directions. The less exaggerated poses on the other factions also helps compared to the Monstrosities. If they're going to make single pose models that you take more than one of, they Need to stop giving them such exaggerated dynamics poses.
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Post by: Buzzsaw
frozenwastes wrote:Buzzsaw wrote:Again, all of this is understandable, but at a certain point the question must be asked, "is PP losing sales to (new) players because their models are simply not up to a current standard?" I don't know how widespread it is, but I can attest personally that I have put off buying WM/H kits that I want because I am afraid of the quality of the kits I have seen.
A negligible amount, if any. Every new player I have met seems to like not being overwhelmed by their initial experience. There's a reason GW doesn't offer full customization figures in their starter sets and Privateer doesn't in most of their line.
Do I like the lack of customization? No. Do I think it costs them sales? Not really. I don't think my preferences are indicative of the preferences of the average customer.
That said, I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm. Anything, really.
You'll forgive me if I have certain doubts. Also, it's not a matter of customization per se that I am referring to, but simply a matter of quality in casting and sculpting.
I have starter armies for 4 factions and want to buy starters for 2 more (Retribution and Convergence). I'm not buying them specifically because of quality issues that have been widely reported, even though these are factions that I like in a system that I like.
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Post by: Schmapdi
Buzzsaw wrote: frozenwastes wrote:Buzzsaw wrote:Again, all of this is understandable, but at a certain point the question must be asked, "is PP losing sales to (new) players because their models are simply not up to a current standard?" I don't know how widespread it is, but I can attest personally that I have put off buying WM/H kits that I want because I am afraid of the quality of the kits I have seen.
A negligible amount, if any. Every new player I have met seems to like not being overwhelmed by their initial experience. There's a reason GW doesn't offer full customization figures in their starter sets and Privateer doesn't in most of their line.
Do I like the lack of customization? No. Do I think it costs them sales? Not really. I don't think my preferences are indicative of the preferences of the average customer.
That said, I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm. Anything, really.
You'll forgive me if I have certain doubts. Also, it's not a matter of customization per se that I am referring to, but simply a matter of quality in casting and sculpting.
I have starter armies for 4 factions and want to buy starters for 2 more (Retribution and Convergence). I'm not buying them specifically because of quality issues that have been widely reported, even though these are factions that I like in a system that I like.
I agree - I've been waiting for years now to really start buying into PP and get to collecting various factions that I fancy. First I held off due to my distaste for metal. Now, after getting a handful of their plastics (and seeing the awful, awful Convergence pics that showed that absolutely no improvement had been made) I wait for them to get their act together and up the quality of their plastics.
They advertised a few months ago for a position that largely seemed to be "get our plastics in order" and that position has been filled now. So hopefully they got someone good who can turn this ship around.
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Post by: frozenwastes
Laughing Man wrote: frozenwastes wrote:That said, I still don't quite understand why the cephalyx monstrosities didn't have ball joints at their waist, shoulders and head. Or at the very least, the waist and one arm. Anything, really.
Because organic models and ball joints don't mix, unless you want to do a lot of green stuff work to fix the ugly joint. In which case, why aren't you just reposing it yourself?
You cheat and have armour plates or clothing that goes right up to the ball joint and the ball joint has muscle detail that goes right around the ball.
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Post by: prplehippo
Schmapdi wrote:They advertised a few months ago for a position that largely seemed to be "get our plastics in order" and that position has been filled now. So hopefully they got someone good who can turn this ship around.
That wasn't the correct wording, they were looking for someone to get their resin casting sorted. It's a real mess. PP doesn't do any of their proper plastics in-house, they are all made in China. There wouldn't be a reason to hire someone full-time for plastics since they have so little control over the manufacturing of them. PP has a guy in the studio who's sole job it is to cut/repair the parts and prepare them for molding so they can be sent to China, but then China makes even more alterations to those parts to be able to make them in plastic.
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Post by: frozenwastes
Buzzsaw wrote:You'll forgive me if I have certain doubts. Also, it's not a matter of customization per se that I am referring to, but simply a matter of quality in casting and sculpting.
I have starter armies for 4 factions and want to buy starters for 2 more (Retribution and Convergence). I'm not buying them specifically because of quality issues that have been widely reported, even though these are factions that I like in a system that I like.
For new people, I think the issue might be one of not knowing any better. Where I am, there's not a lot of GW gaming going on outside of the GW store. The local stores do a lot of flames of war, WM/H, Infinity, Dystopian Wars, etc., and if you're a new customer there the odds are if you go with PP's stuff you're not necessarily going to have the experience with the clean injection casting of GW's kits. Or of Perry historicals, or Wyrd's plastic or any other really well produced styrene kit. They're going to open their starter, clean the mould lines, build the things and hopefully prime and paint them. And barring some bent weapons, be generally happy.
And let's be honest what PVC is. It's a means of reducing the cost per unit for the manufacturer. It's about PP's bottom line and not anything else. They're not offering any of the actual advantages of plastic that they could be. It's all about cost controls and where possible, reduced prices.
By this point if anyone thought I was some sort of PP fanboy in this thread, they probably should no longer think so. Basically I've said that PP can sell their customers plastic because their customers might not know any better and that it's all about PP's bottom line and not providing a better product per se.
There's two possible quality issues with PP's plastic.
1) It needs extra work to make it good. You have to use boiling water to straighten parts and the extra time spent on mould lines can be annoying, but if you're willing to fight through it, it'll turn out fine.
2) Even with extra work, it's no good. The removal of flash means you damage detail and have to repair it with putty. Moulds have slipped and the part is horribly miscast. That sort of thing.
Issue 1) is a given with PP's plastic, but issue 2) might be a bit more rare. And to be fair to PP, they'll send you a replacement in the mail.
People in this thread are talking like every time they buy something it has an issue that would be type 2) above. I really think it's a matter of their stuff being annoying and taking extra work rather than being unworkable. It's no glowing review for me to say that PP's plastics are going to annoy you and take extra work, but it's not as bad as people are making it out to be.
From a model kit perspective, I think I'd rate PP's plastic stuff at like a 5.5 (or maybe 6) out of 10. And their metals at 8-9.
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Post by: PhantomViper
frozenwastes wrote:Basically I've said that PP can sell their customers plastic because their customers might not know any better and that it's all about PP's bottom line and not providing a better product per se.
Or their target customers are those that honestly couldn't care less about conversions and making each of their toy soldiers a wonderful and unique snow flake by repositioning the arm pointing up instead of pointing down...
Not every game has to cater to every taste and for everyone that is looking for a miniature line that emphasizes that aspect of the hobby, then maybe PP isn't the company for you?
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Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion
GW beats PP hands down but....
I'm disappointed with the Hive Crone kit. It really lacks that loving detail. I was comparing the head recess to that on the Carnifex - the Carnifex is all grungy and organic, the Crone is actually pretty smooth, symmetrical and rather mechanical looking. Might be the fact it was sketched out in CAD, might be that it was rushed out.
It's fine, fits together well (as long as you fill the gaps around the little side funnels), but it definitely lacks TLC compared to some of the earlier models.
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Post by: frozenwastes
PhantomViper wrote:
Or their target customers are those that honestly couldn't care less about conversions and making each of their toy soldiers a wonderful and unique snow flake by repositioning the arm pointing up instead of pointing down...
Not every game has to cater to every taste and for everyone that is looking for a miniature line that emphasizes that aspect of the hobby, then maybe PP isn't the company for you?
I actually think converting models through re-positioning manually rather than assembling a kit made to be that way is at the core of the modelling side of the hobby. It takes far more skill to take a metal model and massively convert it to change the pose than it does to just build a plastic kit in one of many possible poses.
Do you really think the bent & distorted weapons and terrible mould lines are suddenly a good thing just because some of the customers don't care about painting? Really? Cause PP seems to care about painting and modelling. Enough that they sell a complete line of hobby and paint products and talk about painting in every one of their publications.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:GW beats PP hands down but....
I'm disappointed with the Hive Crone kit. It really lacks that loving detail. I was comparing the head recess to that on the Carnifex - the Carnifex is all grungy and organic, the Crone is actually pretty smooth, symmetrical and rather mechanical looking. Might be the fact it was sketched out in CAD, might be that it was rushed out.
It's fine, fits together well (as long as you fill the gaps around the little side funnels), but it definitely lacks TLC compared to some of the earlier models.
In the last few GW financial reports Kirby continued to promise the shareholders how closely they'd protect their margins and cut costs.
I would not be surprised at all if GW tries to get each kit done with less and less studio hours in order to save money and their quality continues to decline. Their art direction has really accelerated into being very derivative and I could see them expecting their design staff to get more projects finished in the same amount of time to save on the design cost for each project.
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Post by: PhantomViper
frozenwastes wrote:
I actually think converting models through re-positioning manually rather than assembling a kit made to be that way is at the core of the modelling side of the hobby. It takes far more skill to take a metal model and massively convert it to change the pose than it does to just build a plastic kit in one of many possible poses.
And I completely agree with you, but to those people, kit pose ability is redundant because they will just tear the model apart to recreate it the way that they have envisioned it.
But that isn't what people here are complaining about, they are complaining about pose repetition in the kits, as if the variance that multi-pose kits allow makes any sort of difference when you look at a table from 3 feet away...
frozenwastes wrote:
Do you really think the bent & distorted weapons and terrible mould lines are suddenly a good thing just because some of the customers don't care about painting? Really? Cause PP seems to care about painting and modelling. Enough that they sell a complete line of hobby and paint products and talk about painting in every one of their publications.
Nope, and I never said that. I never said that customers didn't care about painting, I said they didn't care about modelling! But mould lines can be cleaned and bent weapons can be fixed with the warm water treatment. It really isn't that big of a deal.
But despite not being that big of a deal to clean up, I also don't like PP's plastics and much prefer their metal models. Unfortunately for costs or profitability reasons PP seems unable or unwilling to continue to produce everything in metal, but they've also stated that they are aware of the problems that are affecting the plastic models and will take steps to correct them and so far I've had 0 reasons to doubt their statements.
And lets get real here, most if not all of the reported problems are only happening with the Cyriss models for some reason, I've bought plastic models for all of my 4 factions (Cygnar, Legion, Cryx and Cyriss), and the only ones where I've experienced any type of heavy mould lines were the Cyriss models, all the other ones only required minimal cleaning (and the straitening of bent spears and halberds).
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Post by: Sean_OBrien
Bossk_Hogg wrote: Sean_OBrien wrote: scarletsquig wrote:It is worth noting that the plastic used by PP is apparently almost exactly the same stuff used for Mantic's "restic" or resin plastic material.
Some sort of PVC formulation. Not as good as a nice sprue in any way.
Harder to clean up, harder to glue, sometimes warps, generally more expensive.
And both of those are the same sort as Reaper uses for Bones. And just barely removed from the type of plastic used to make polymer clays like FIMO and Sculpey. All of them glue up fine using PVC cement.
I have PP PVC models, Mantic "restic", and Bones. Bones is different and considerably more rubbery in my experience.
Yes, it is more flexible, however not because it is a different type of plastic. The formulation of the PVC is different. Bones uses more/different types of plasticizers but they are all just PVC. With little or no plasticizer added in, PVC is quite hard and even a bit brittle. You can keep adding plasticizers till it is like a wet noodle though (even more than that as if memory serves Plastisol inks are PVC and are liquid till heat treated).
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Post by: chaos0xomega
mechanicalhorizon wrote:chaos0xomega wrote:While they may be plastic, they are produced using the same process as "restic" etc. (also known as rapid injection molding) within a rubber mold. The reason they don't go to plastic sprues ala wyrd is because plastic injection molding still can't capture that level of detail. Yes, Wyrds models are amazing, but they don't have the same level of detail as privateer minis (and when I mean level of detail, I'm referring to undercuts and non-planar details)
PP plastics are produced on the same injection molding machines with steel tools as polystyrene, not rubber molds.
When the PVC is done being injected into the mold and the tool opens, it is manually pulled out of the tool by a worker (not by ejector pins like polystyrene sprues are).
Since the PVC is still hot and soft it flexes when pulled out of the mold, then it is dunked into a trough of cold water to harden. That's one of the reasons PVC models are deformed so much when you get them. The factory doesn't take the time to straighten out the bent parts.
I'm reasonably certain this isn't the case, since ( IIRC) I was told by PP employees on their forums some time ago that they are produced using a 'rapid injection molding' process that shoots the PVC into specially designed silicone molds.
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Post by: plastictrees
Check out mechanicalhirizons Deviant Art page...I think he/she might have more insight than you.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Papaskittels wrote:Well i guess im just going to throw in my .02$
I honestly really prefer the PP Plastics to GW Plastics. Even if they do share alot of the troublesome property's that you find in resin models. Im not sure what it is exactly, they have absolutely no superior qualitys compared to GW but i just tend to like them a little more. (Possibly just bias because i prefer WM/H rules over 40k/fantasy)
I really wish that PP models had a little more Variety to the options they come with (BITZ) because I find most my Warmahordes models are about half green-stuff. The plastic they use does have a good amount of flaws in detail retention, but its not really something I personally mind. They are a new company and have a lot of time to refine their ways of making minis.
In the Pewter department, I would have to say PP takes the cake. GW had really big flaws in their metal models (Not to say PP doesn't have any) But I honestly have no real complaints on the PP metal models. I find the sculpts to be phenomenal, and have a GREAT attention to details.
Either way they are to great company's with some beautiful work. -Papa
ou have three identical models.
Well, you're obviously alone here with your opinion. For instance, look at the current Cyriss model line. Its by far not the same standard as that of GW.
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Post by: chaos0xomega
plastictrees wrote:Check out mechanicalhirizons Deviant Art page...I think he/she might have more insight than you.
Is there something specific I'm looking for? I see pictures of his sculpts for Privateer, and some basic explanations of how to do RTV silicone casting, nothing about steel...
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Post by: mechanicalhorizon
chaos0xomega wrote:I'm reasonably certain this isn't the case, since ( IIRC) I was told by PP employees on their forums some time ago that they are produced using a 'rapid injection molding' process that shoots the PVC into specially designed silicone molds.
Whomever told you that was mistaken.
The pressure used to inject the plastic into the tools is far too high for rubber molds. I was the only person at PP with any real "hands on" experience with plastic injection molding (learned it when I worked for GW) I also know how it's done because Ron went to China several times and took pictures and videos of their process.
They are made with steel tools. The parts can be pulled out of the tool, even with undercuts, because the PVC is still soft after being injected into the tool so it will flex when pulled out of the tool.
Unfortunately that's also what causes the majority of the warped parts so as long as they stick with PVC you are stuck with warped parts.
chaos0xomega, there is a HUGE amount of misinformation out there when it comes to moldmaking and casting techniques. Most of what you'll find by Googling aren't techniques used in large scale manufacturing, like using LEGO's as mold boxes, how to sprue a model etc, etc.
There is a wealth of knowledge that you won't find online and that you'll only ever learn by working for a company like GW, who spent decades perfecting and testing materials and processes. When we first moved to Memphis, TN I had a whole year jsut to test out and try new methods, materials and basically just to experiment to see what really works VS what people think works.
chaos0xomega wrote:Is there something specific I'm looking for? I see pictures of his sculpts for Privateer, and some basic explanations of how to do RTV silicone casting, nothing about steel...
I was hired at PP as a sculptor, but I did have a life before PP. The reason I speak more about RTV moldmaking and resin casting is because that's what people keep asking me about since it's easy to learn, the materials are inexpensive and you can set it up on your kitchen table. Plastic injection molding, not so much.
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Post by: Platuan4th
He's not, but those of us that like, prefer, or don't mind them tend not to speak up about it much.
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Post by: frozenwastes
PhantomViper wrote:But that isn't what people here are complaining about, they are complaining about pose repetition in the kits, as if the variance that multi-pose kits allow makes any sort of difference when you look at a table from 3 feet away...
It might for the cephalyx monstrosities. They're pretty samey, even at a distance. I plan on cutting and reposing mine, but I could see how people who are used to GW type kits where you can do that without any real work would find the task daunting and the idea of three nearly identical models disappointing.
Unfortunately for costs or profitability reasons PP seems unable or unwilling to continue to produce everything in metal, but they've also stated that they are aware of the problems that are affecting the plastic models and will take steps to correct them and so far I've had 0 reasons to doubt their statements.
I've dealt with Chinese manufacturers before and while they can be hard to deal with some times, they certainly do respond well when you start dragging your feet on payment and talking about how batches delivered were defective and will need to be returned without being paid for and the like.
And lets get real here, most if not all of the reported problems are only happening with the Cyriss models for some reason, I've bought plastic models for all of my 4 factions (Cygnar, Legion, Cryx and Cyriss), and the only ones where I've experienced any type of heavy mould lines were the Cyriss models, all the other ones only required minimal cleaning (and the straitening of bent spears and halberds).
And even then, it's a mixed bag. I'm doing another batch of Cyriss for a customer and while the first batch was from the stuff sold at Lock and Load and was totally fine, this stuff has been purchased through regular store distribution.
And it's still fine. A bit of hot water straightening and mould line removal with a knife and file and everything was good.
I wonder if the people who are having issues are approaching it as if it's styrene and when one edge of the knife scrape doesn't take the mould line off, they give up and go on the internet to complain?
Though I recognize that there have been legitimate cases of problems. Like this one:
If you get something like that, head over to PP's website and report a missing parts request for a miscast.
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Post by: plastictrees
Uh, no. I've been converting models since '91 (with a swiss army knife, in a snowstorm) and PPs plastic is the biggest pain in the ass I've ever encountered.
My question ultimately is, why are they doing plastics?
The answer seems to be, it's cheaper for PP. Which is fine. It could just be so much more.
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Post by: frozenwastes
It's 100% about cost control for PP. The switch to plastic was begun done during the volatility in the tin market around 2008-2009. When the price of the metal that makes up most of your products starts doing this: You don't have a lot of options in terms of price control. PP's switch to plastics is all about their own margins. At least with PP though, if a given kit is switched to plastic, the price is dropped. Like Bane Thralls going from $80 to $50. And cavalry kits being released at $60 while the metal and resin ones are $100 or so. EDIT: Spoiler tags
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if the warjacks from the game Grind are compatible with Warmachine? I ask because Grind has 10 warjacks, and currently costs $14.99 with free shipping on Amazon. At 10 models for $14.99, I think a lot of PVC's faults are forgivable.
frozenwastes wrote: Buzzsaw wrote:You'll forgive me if I have certain doubts. Also, it's not a matter of customization per se that I am referring to, but simply a matter of quality in casting and sculpting.
I have starter armies for 4 factions and want to buy starters for 2 more (Retribution and Convergence). I'm not buying them specifically because of quality issues that have been widely reported, even though these are factions that I like in a system that I like.
For new people, I think the issue might be one of not knowing any better. Where I am, there's not a lot of GW gaming going on outside of the GW store. The local stores do a lot of flames of war, WM/H, Infinity, Dystopian Wars, etc., and if you're a new customer there the odds are if you go with PP's stuff you're not necessarily going to have the experience with the clean injection casting of GW's kits. Or of Perry historicals, or Wyrd's plastic or any other really well produced styrene kit. They're going to open their starter, clean the mould lines, build the things and hopefully prime and paint them. And barring some bent weapons, be generally happy.
And let's be honest what PVC is. It's a means of reducing the cost per unit for the manufacturer. It's about PP's bottom line and not anything else. They're not offering any of the actual advantages of plastic that they could be. It's all about cost controls and where possible, reduced prices.
By this point if anyone thought I was some sort of PP fanboy in this thread, they probably should no longer think so. Basically I've said that PP can sell their customers plastic because their customers might not know any better and that it's all about PP's bottom line and not providing a better product per se.
There's two possible quality issues with PP's plastic.
1) It needs extra work to make it good. You have to use boiling water to straighten parts and the extra time spent on mould lines can be annoying, but if you're willing to fight through it, it'll turn out fine.
2) Even with extra work, it's no good. The removal of flash means you damage detail and have to repair it with putty. Moulds have slipped and the part is horribly miscast. That sort of thing.
Issue 1) is a given with PP's plastic, but issue 2) might be a bit more rare. And to be fair to PP, they'll send you a replacement in the mail.
People in this thread are talking like every time they buy something it has an issue that would be type 2) above. I really think it's a matter of their stuff being annoying and taking extra work rather than being unworkable. It's no glowing review for me to say that PP's plastics are going to annoy you and take extra work, but it's not as bad as people are making it out to be.
From a model kit perspective, I think I'd rate PP's plastic stuff at like a 5.5 (or maybe 6) out of 10. And their metals at 8-9.
I have had problems with a full half of the PP plastic kits I've bought. And when I contacted them, it took about 2 months in each case to get the issue resolved. It was pretty ridiculous.
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Post by: Laughing Man
Sort of? You could make some decent Cygnar stand-ins with that, along with a potential Marauder IIRC. The weapon loadouts aren't precisely ideal for direct conversion to Warmachine, but with a little bit of creativity and a lot of conversion work you could pull something off.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Well, then I guess they're great for someone like me who likes to have a lot of interesting models to assemble and paint, but who never plays the games. I'll just assume I can use them in Deadzone or Warpath for when I get to play those games in 10 years or so.
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Post by: Laughing Man
Oh, and a last note about Grind: The Khador lights are pretty much useless for Warmachine (although they make great models for IKRPG steamjacks), as Khador doesn't actually have light warjacks.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Well, I guess $15 for 10 warjack-sized robot models isn't as good of a deal as I thought.
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Post by: Laughing Man
Still a pretty good deal, mind you. It's just that only seven are useful outside of IKRPG (which is, incidentally, a pretty neat system), and that they'll need a bit of work to get the right weapons on them. The chassis are all pretty much taken verbatim from Khador heavies, and the Cygnar Ironclad and Lancer chassis. Mind you, the weapons are gradually becoming more and more appropriate over time, as we have spoilers of a Khadoran heavy wielding a hammer in the new Vengeance book due out in March.
But yeah, 7 warjacks for $15 is still a pretty damn good deal. 
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Post by: wuestenfux
Laughing Man wrote:
Still a pretty good deal, mind you. It's just that only seven are useful outside of IKRPG (which is, incidentally, a pretty neat system), and that they'll need a bit of work to get the right weapons on them. The chassis are all pretty much taken verbatim from Khador heavies, and the Cygnar Ironclad and Lancer chassis. Mind you, the weapons are gradually becoming more and more appropriate over time, as we have spoilers of a Khadoran heavy wielding a hammer in the new Vengeance book due out in March.
But yeah, 7 warjacks for $15 is still a pretty damn good deal.
In fact, its a very good deal. With some work, you could make them PP standard.
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Post by: BobtheInquisitor
Would PDC's heavy weapons sprue provide useful parts?
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Post by: AduroT
I think the Grind jacks are smaller than the standard as well, but not a lot. Talk to locals and see if you can get extra Warjack arms off of them to convert the Grind ones to the right weapon loadouts.
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Post by: frozenwastes
The grind jacks are the same size. They're just made of a boardgame plastic that's a bit softer than their grey PVC stuff.
I've never ahd anyone notice that my grind jacks were from grind. I put a bit of extra work into mould line removal and once they were painted, no one has been able to notice.
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Post by: gunslingerpro
Grind jacks alsomake great scenery (statues or pieces for a warjack workshop) and great for bases. A solid buy (and I may have to pick up a few myself...)
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Post by: mechanicalhorizon
The same master models were used for the Cygnar and Khador models in Grind and Warmachine. There were a few modifications made to them due to the different manufacturing process, but basically they are the same.
You shouldn't have any issues with using Grind Jacks in Warmachine, and the extra Warjack arm options should fit on the Grind jacks just fine.
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Post by: Wayshuba
AduroT wrote:First off, you do not have resin Reductors, you have plastic Reductors. It's a different kind of plastic than what GW uses yes, but it's still just plastic. It's not a resin, nor is it some restic or plastic resin hybrid. It's just PVC plastic.
Secondly, yes, PP plastic is quite subpar when compared to GWs. I used to excuse that by PP being a smaller company not able to afford the big fancy machines that GW uses, but then Malifaux started making plastic figs of GWs level. PP really needs to upgrade their plastic technology and stop outsourcing it to china.
Zero problems with PPs metal though.
I just wanted to jump in with one thing here. It is not because PP makes them in China. Malifaux plastics are made there. So are DreamForge plastics which make all model kits on the market, including GW's look inferior, yet they are made in China. PPs issue is they, like GW, have become a bit to focused on profit of individual kits and therefore are going the route of the cheapest possible in cost for the most expensive in price. A losing proposition all around.
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Post by: master of ordinance
For all the bashing they get, GW's models are superior. They have a better quality, if a stupidly cartoonish style.
PP's plastics are not as good. That said, they do come off the sprues, and for models such as Jacks, they are good.
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Post by: wuestenfux
Today, I got a box of Eradicators for my Cyriss faction. All parts are off sprue. What a mess. I think I'll sell the box on ebay asap.
The same goes with the Reductors. The worst looking models I've seen. I have 10 of them and will sell them at ebay too.
My Cyriss army will stay vector heavy with some optifex units and solos.
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Post by: kronk
Kroothawk wrote:If it can't be glued with plastic cement, it isn't plastic for me. PP stuff can't be glued with plastic cement.
That's one way of looking at it. Plastic cement is formulated for polystyrene. It won't work on other plastics, including polypropylene, polyethylene, or PVC. You have to get a PVC specific cement for PVC. Or superglue. That doesn't mean these aren't plastic, but that's a debate for another thread. As for PP vs GW, I don't like the aesthetics of PP stuff. I do like that gargantuan mountain troll thingy. But otherwise, no thanks. I don't care how good the game is.
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Post by: scarletsquig
Yes, that wonderful industrial solvent stuff that comes in gallon tins where you have to pry the lid off with a knife.
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Post by: kronk
Remember to cut away from yourself with the knife! Safety first!
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Post by: Kaptajn Congoboy
wuestenfux wrote:Today, I got a box of Eradicators for my Cyriss faction. All parts are off sprue. What a mess. I think I'll sell the box on ebay asap.
The same goes with the Reductors. The worst looking models I've seen. I have 10 of them and will sell them at ebay too.
My Cyriss army will stay vector heavy with some optifex units and solos.
Iron Mother Carrier group will be your friend then. But I dunno. It took me a grand total of 5 minutes to sort my two Reciprocator sets (same baseline as the Eradicators) before assembly, and the Reductors took maybe half that. It takes me more time to get my airbrush tools out and ready for use. But I am sure you can spend those 7,5 minutes in a more useful manner, such as taking pictures of the boxes and setting up an ebay sale
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Post by: Platuan4th
That's a feature, not a bug. No sprues means less wasted plastic and less waste laying around your house.
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Post by: Sarigar
For myself, I built a 35pt Legion army. It is still only 80% painted and I'm just not motivated at all to finish them. I kept thinking the details are getting muddled on the model and then I compared my Nyss Warriors to my Dark Eldar Scourges. The Nyss' detail was akin to something GW produced in the early 90's.
While I haven't abadoned learning how to play Hordes, the models are very uninspiring for me to want to finish painting.
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Post by: RoninXiC
Well... the Nyss Swordsmen ARE probably the worst looking unit/model in Warmahorde. They are atrocious.
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Post by: wuestenfux
RoninXiC wrote:Well... the Nyss Swordsmen ARE probably the worst looking unit/model in Warmahorde. They are atrocious.
As already said, I play Cyriss and the Reductors are one of the worst models I've ever seen. They should be akin to Necron Warriors.
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Post by: PhantomViper
wuestenfux wrote:RoninXiC wrote:Well... the Nyss Swordsmen ARE probably the worst looking unit/model in Warmahorde. They are atrocious.
As already said, I play Cyriss and the Reductors are one of the worst models I've ever seen. They should be akin to Necron Warriors.
They require a fair bit of cleaning, but apart from that I found nothing wrong with mine. What was so bad in yours?
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Post by: wuestenfux
PhantomViper wrote: wuestenfux wrote:RoninXiC wrote:Well... the Nyss Swordsmen ARE probably the worst looking unit/model in Warmahorde. They are atrocious.
As already said, I play Cyriss and the Reductors are one of the worst models I've ever seen. They should be akin to Necron Warriors.
They require a fair bit of cleaning, but apart from that I found nothing wrong with mine. What was so bad in yours?
The Reductors remind me a bit on C-3PO in Star Wars, but the models are more walking like Zombies.
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Post by: Platuan4th
wuestenfux wrote:PhantomViper wrote: wuestenfux wrote:RoninXiC wrote:Well... the Nyss Swordsmen ARE probably the worst looking unit/model in Warmahorde. They are atrocious.
As already said, I play Cyriss and the Reductors are one of the worst models I've ever seen. They should be akin to Necron Warriors.
They require a fair bit of cleaning, but apart from that I found nothing wrong with mine. What was so bad in yours?
The Reductors remind me a bit on C-3PO in Star Wars, but the models are more walking like Zombies.
So you have nothing against the technical side, you just don't like the aesthetics of the final product?
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Post by: wuestenfux
 Platuan4th wrote: wuestenfux wrote:PhantomViper wrote: wuestenfux wrote:RoninXiC wrote:Well... the Nyss Swordsmen ARE probably the worst looking unit/model in Warmahorde. They are atrocious.
As already said, I play Cyriss and the Reductors are one of the worst models I've ever seen. They should be akin to Necron Warriors.
They require a fair bit of cleaning, but apart from that I found nothing wrong with mine. What was so bad in yours?
The Reductors remind me a bit on C-3PO in Star Wars, but the models are more walking like Zombies.
So you have nothing against the technical side, you just don't like the aesthetics of the final product?
Its the aestetics of some models like the Cyriss' vectors or reductors but also the material as already discussed above.
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Post by: Jehan-reznor
scarletsquig wrote:
Yes, that wonderful industrial solvent stuff that comes in gallon tins where you have to pry the lid off with a knife.
Behold!
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Post by: wuestenfux
Thank you. Good to know. I'll give it a try.
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Post by: alphaecho
I like the 'made with modern technology' statement.
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Post by: Breotan
Sorta reminds ya of Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure. 
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