I see this one has been debated in an internal swedish FAQ. When Overwatching, you can do a normal shooting attack. MC's can normally fire two weapons. But is it two 'attacks'? The FAQ ruled against MC's firing two weapons (wrong call, imo).

Were do you stand?

I think the MCs, models with two pistols, walkers and Tau battlesuits should all make their normal shooting attack whenever they are permitted to make out of turn shooting attacks (ie Intercepter and Overwatch). This would mean that, for them, they may fire two (or more in the case of the Walker) ranged weapons.

However, I think there is enough flex in the wording that both for and against are supportable opinions and will remain so baring further clarification from GW.

Just remember, the only restriction on firing one weapon, is in the shooting phase (if they want to play that game), so either, overwatch if treated exactly like a shooting phase (with a few noted differences), or any model with more than one weapon can fire them all in overwatch.

It is 2 weapons or all weapons. It really is that simple. Restriction to firing just 1 weapon has literally no rules support.

Well since the rules don't call overwatch a shooting phase, there is no rules support for more than 1 shot there fling.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well since the rules don't call overwatch a shooting phase, there is no rules support for more than 1 shot there fling.

If it's not a shooting phase, there's no rule restricting models to firing one weapon.

"Normal shooting attack" is the line it describes what models can do iirc. Is a normal shooting attack firing two weapons? I think not.

You do realise you've just said "It doesn't say I can't"? You need to show the permission.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
"Normal shooting attack" is the line it describes what models can do iirc. Is a normal shooting attack firing two weapons? I think not.

For MCs it absolutely is.

You do realise you've just said "It doesn't say I can't"? You need to show the permission.

So wrong it hurts. You've completely and utterly failing to try and understand the argument.
I have permission to make a normal shooting attack. A normal shooting attack for MCs allows 2 weapons. Cite the denial. I've shown permission.
You're saying that the permission for an MC to fire two weapons requires being in the shooting phase. Fine.

I have permission to make a shooting attack. I opt to fire 2 weapons with my Tac Marine. Cite a rule that denies my ability to do so - I already have permission to fire and rules directing me to pick which weapon(s) to fire.

Show your work please.

The rules for overwatch explicitly state to treat it like a shooting phase, with additional rules.

I take this to mean anything your model can do in the shooting phase, it can do in overwatch. If your model can overwatch and it can fire 2 or more weapons in the shooting phase, it can bring all it's arms to bear in overwatch following the additional rules overwatch entails (most notably having to snapfire).

The people in my neck of the woods have all agreed this means you can nominate one model in a squad to huck a non-blast grenade (like Haywire or Krak) as a snapfire attack if the model charging was already in range.

Milage and interpretation may vary with that one, though.

Where is a normal shooting atttack defined? If I recall its in the shooting phase section and thus has no bearing on what a player can do in overwatch.

Now if overwatch uses the rules for the shooting phase then rules that apply in the shooting phase apply when doing overwatch.

 SRSFACE wrote:
The rules for overwatch explicitly state to treat it like a shooting phase, with additional rules.

It actually doesn't.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FirePainter wrote:
Where is a normal shooting atttack defined? If I recall its in the shooting phase section and thus has no bearing on what a player can do in overwatch.

So the restriction to only firing one weapon (that also only applies in the shooting phase) does not apply. Thanks for buffing Tac Squads in overwatch!

Well since the rules don't call overwatch a shooting phase, there is no rules support for more than 1 shot there fling.

Since as you point out the rules don't call overwatch a shooting phase there is no rules support for restricting how many weapons ANYONE can fire. So if that is your line of reasoning you charge a tactical squad with bolters and I fire 30 bolt rounds a frag grenade and a krak grenade at you (20 rapidfire boltgun shots, 10 bolt pistol shots, 1 frag grenade instead of a krak grenade, 1 krak grenade instead of a frag).

"Normal shooting attack" is the line it describes what models can do iirc. Is a normal shooting attack firing two weapons? I think not.

Why do you think not using rules? I'd say firing two weapons certainly is normal for a MC or Tau Battlesuit.

rigeld2 wrote:


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FirePainter wrote:
Where is a normal shooting atttack defined? If I recall its in the shooting phase section and thus has no bearing on what a player can do in overwatch.

So the restriction to only firing one weapon (that also only applies in the shooting phase) does not apply. Thanks for buffing Tac Squads in overwatch!

I was putting that there to show its absurd nature. If you do not use the rules for the shooting phase in overwatch then yes every unit with 2 guns can fire both in overwatch which is not RAW. You use the rules for the shooting phase in overwatch and thus Tac sqauds can fire 1 gun, pistol or bolter. MC, units with multitrackers, gunslingers can fire both as it is their normal shooting attack.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well since the rules don't call overwatch a shooting phase, there is no rules support for more than 1 shot there fling.

By that logic you can not shoot either

I had a thread about this sort of thing before
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/565137.page

Is a normal shooting attack now two shooting attacks?
Please show where it says that firing two weapons is a single attack. I can see permission to fire additional weapons in certain circumstances in the shooting phase but that doesn't make it part of the same attack.

A tau battlesuit's multitracker says "in the shooting phase", that is not when shooting. It is limited only to the shooting phase.

I did use rules fling in fact I did recall correctly the definition of what models are allowed to do in overwatch. A normal shooting attack. That is a single attack normal shooting is defined in the shooting phase rules. Now for the ability to fire more than one weapon you actually do have to provide actual permission.

Rigeld. I understand what you're saying. I disagree and read the rules to say that overwatch is not a shooting phase. Similarly vector strike is neither combat nor shooting.

Is a normal shooting attack now two shooting attacks?
Please show where it says that firing two weapons is a single attack. I can see permission to fire additional weapons in certain circumstances in the shooting phase but that doesn't make it part of the same attack.

So a marine squad can only fire 1 boltguns now? A shooting attack is a unit firing all the weapons it is allowed to fire.

So why are you restricted to 1 weapon? Where is normal shooting attack defined as firing 1 weapon?

Well fling I showed where. 1 attack per model in the unit that is in range.... you do have the brb to check the shooting rules don't you?

pg 13 defines that most models can shoot one weapon, rolling one dice unless their weapon allows for more. To get more shooting attacks you need to show permission. Which you've not done.

Page 13 says no such thing it says most models can only fire 1 shot. It makes no mention of number of weapons a model can fire. That is found only when in reference to the shooting phase.

You fire with units. You have a choice to not fire with certain models. The only restriction on how many weapons a model may fire is in the shooting phase. So if shooting phase stuff doesn't work why am I restricted to 1 weapon per model?

 CrownAxe wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Well since the rules don't call overwatch a shooting phase, there is no rules support for more than 1 shot there fling.

By that logic you can not shoot either

No, the rules allow me to make a normal shooting attack. So overwatch is not a shooting phase, it allows you to make shooting attacks but not gain all of the advantages of normal shooting.

One weapon is a shooting attack. Two weapons is two shooting attacks. Look at roll to hit on page 13. It says what most models get to do ie the norm. So you're looking for a restriction on something you don't have permission to do in overwatch?

One weapon is a shooting attack. Two weapons is two shooting attacks.

So again with tac squads only getting to overwatch with 1 gun. Remember that the unit only gets 1 shooting attack per the Overwatch rules. Also 1 shooting attack = 1 weapon firing is not supported by the rules at all.

I'm not sure why you keep misrepresenting what I'm saying...
Shooting phase tells us how you resolve shooting attacks top of page 12. Roll to hit defines that resolution as being 1 dice rolled unless you have a weapon that allows more dice.

To get to shoot an additional weapon you need permission.

Now I know you're going to point out that 1 attack means only one model fires in the unit based on nothing but unit's don't attack, models do. Units select targets and the shots are resolved on a per model basis based on their stats, the weapon they're firing, if they've moved etc.

BrB page 13 wrote:Most models only get to fire one shot, however, some weapons are capable of firing more than once, as we'll explain in more detail later

Note the total lack of it saying models only get to fire 1 weapon or any mention of the number of weapons a model can or normally does fire. Also nothing stating that a normal shooting attack is with 1 weapon...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Shooting attacks are made by units, shots are made by models.

Page 51 defines the ability to shoot only one ranged weapon. Now using page 13 we see that it's one ranged weapon... using 1 dice unless it has more than one shot that makes up a shooting attack. A normal shooting attack.

So where is the permission to fire more than one weapon in overwatch? You must have it....

A unit makes shooting attacks, that shooting attack that each model gets to make is as above. If you can construe this into more than one shot per model please show how?

So we know we get to make a shooting attack with the unit. We know that part of that is the to hit roll. Are we agreed so far?

How many to hit rolls we make will be determined by our weapons correct?

A unit is given permission to fire with any or all of its models (assuming in range) correct?

Those models may fire 1 or more shots correct? For most models it is apparently only 1 shot. How do we know how many shots a model gets to fire? Look at its weapons. So a model that has 1 weapon with 3 shots and another weapon with 2 shots has permission to fire how many shots? If page 51 didn't state that you can only fire 1 of your weapons in the shooting phase how many weapons could you fire in the shooting phase if you had 2 weapons?

Have you intentionally ignored the facts layed out before you?

Page 51 brb " unless otherwise stated, if a model has more than 1 shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot- he can not shoot both in the same SHOOTING PHASE"

This is the only restriction for shooting only 1 weapon, and as can clearly be seen, it is limited to the shooting phase.

So on to "unless otherwise stated"

Page 48 brb. Monstrous creatures can fire up to 2 of their weapons each shooting phase..."

Tau multitracker " a model with a multitracker can fire an additional weapon in each shooting phase"

Is overwatch a shooting phase?

If yes, then the above rules apply.

If no, then the restriction to firing only 1 weapon does not apply.

Either way MC's and models with multitrackers can fire 2 weapons.

Dispute that with rules.

Well do you have permission to fire more than one weapon in the shooting phase ignoring page 51? If so please show it.

You are now actually saying it doesn't say I cannot. You don't have permission to fire a 2nd weapon in the shooting phase (unless explicitly said so) and you have a general restriction. Without permission it doesn't matter.

Now once you've done with all of that, show me where a normal shooting attack is firing 2 weapons.

Ok, there is not specific restriction but there is no general permission. If you cannot show a permission, you cannot do it. I'm willing to admit I'm wrong but only if you can show a permission.
Overwatch isn't a shooting phase because the rules don't say it is. I cannot accept something that I don't see in existence in the rules.

Did you read what I posted?

Where did i say "it doesn't say I can't"?

How many weapons can a model fire? Page 51 tells me that you may only fire 1 weapon in each shooting phase unless otherwise stated.

Both the MC and multitrackers give specific permission to fire a second weapon in the shooting phase.

Again, is overwatch a shooting phase?

Yes? Then MC and multitrackers work.

No? The restriction to firing 1 weapon does not apply.

Clear as day

There is no restriction on firing 1 weapon only but there is no permission to fire more than 1. Clear as day.

Can you show where an overwatch is a shooting phase?

Show where a normal shooting attack is firing 1 weapon. As for showing that a normal shooting attack can include more than 1 weapon answer this:

A full tactical squad makes a normal shooting attack how many weapons does it fire?

You are not given a restriction to firing just 1 weapon per model anywhere except on page 51 which limits that restriction to the shooting phase. You are never told to fire only 1 of your weapons anywhere else. You are given permission to shoot your weapons (it makes no mention of how many) so show the restriction.

If its not, then the only restriction to firing 1 weapon does not apply.

 BarBoBot wrote:
If its not, then the only restriction to firing 1 weapon does not apply.

Ok, it doesn't apply. Where is the permission to fire a second weapon?
Answer that and you win. I shut up, the thread is locked and you gain 1 internet.

Why do you think you only have permission to fire 1 weapon? Please show where the number of weapons you may fire is defined? If you can't then permission to fire any weapon is permission to fire all weapons.

I think you don't have permission to shoot two weapons as there is nowhere that gives that permission. You can't do anything in a permissive ruleset without permission.
Fling you've just said it doesn't say I cannot.
I can fire a weapon, it doesn't say I cannot fire them all.

I posted the relevant rules.

Burden is now on you.

The rules tell you exactly how many weapons you can fire, and the restriction is only in the shooting phase.

If your making a shooting attack that's not in the shooting phase, then there is no restriction.

Of course a reasonable person reads overwatch and see that it says you make a "normal shooting attack and uses ALL the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves, AND SO ON" and knows that its treated as a shooting phase.

Uses "ALL" the normal rules is blindingly clear that you do in fact use ALL the normal rules, including multitrackers and MC rules.

"ALL the normal rules" not some, or most, or certain ones, ALL.

Oh so I'm unreasonable.... cool.

Barbobot, the burden is not on me. You've not shown permission. You've shown no restriction but no general permission.

Normal rules are not special rules or those that come from codices. They are special. So you need to show again how it is a shooting phase and not make veiled assertions and insults.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Is a normal shooting attack now two shooting attacks?
Please show where it says that firing two weapons is a single attack. I can see permission to fire additional weapons in certain circumstances in the shooting phase but that doesn't make it part of the same attack.

It absolutely does. Because models are not given permission to make more than one shooting attack. One shooting attack can consist of multiple weapons - and commonly does (vehicles, MCs, Multi-trackers for example).

Rigeld. I understand what you're saying. I disagree and read the rules to say that overwatch is not a shooting phase. Similarly vector strike is neither combat nor shooting.

The fact that it's not a shooting phase is irrelevant. Your comparison to Vector Strike is flawed and irrelevant.
I have permission to make a shooting attack. A shooting attack is never restricted to a single weapon. You've asserted it is. Prove it without using page 51.

Fling you've just said it doesn't say I cannot.
I can fire a weapon, it doesn't say I cannot fire them all.

I haven't said that at all. I've said I have permission to fire my weapons and no where does it tell me how many. Therefore I can fire all of them unless I am told that there is a specific number I can fire. I have thus shown permission. I have proven your "one weapon per shooting attack" theory is false in the rules.

Ok prove you can fire more than one weapon.
You say there is permission.. show it. I've asked repeatedly for someone to point this permission out but nobody has.

The lack of a restriction isn't permission, it is only the lack of a restriction. Literally it doesn't say you cannot fire more than 1 weapon in overwatch, is that permission to fire more than 1 weapon?

Page 13 doesn't give permission for firing multiple weapons.

So show that page 13 is only permission to fire 1 weapon.

Did you read the overwatch rules?

It says follow ALL the rules for shooting.

You have been provided with all the rules with the exception of defining the word "all".

I trust you know what "all" means?

I don't have to. You have to show permission. It doesn't say all weapons.

Following ALL the rules for shooting means ALL the rules for shooting.

What does page 51 tell us about the rules for shooting multiple weapons?

Are the rules on page 51 NOT shooting rules?

 BarBoBot wrote:
Did you read the overwatch rules?

It says follow ALL the rules for shooting.

You have been provided with all the NORMAL[u] rules with the exception of defining the word "all".

I trust you know what "all" means?

I have fixed that quote. Is codex or unit type specific special or more advanced rules for shooting, normal shooting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Barbobot, I hope you understand what "normal" is.

I don't have to. You have to show permission. It doesn't say all weapons.

Sorry what? You are asserting the page only gives permission to fire 1 weapon. We claim it remains silent on how many weapons you can fire. So you very much have to prove your what you claim as your entire argument in based on that point.

What is the "normal" rule for MC's shooting?

Oh yeah, their "normal" shooting rules say they may fire 2 weapons.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Did you read the overwatch rules?

It says follow ALL the rules for shooting.

You have been provided with all the NORMAL[u] rules with the exception of defining the word "all".

I trust you know what "all" means?

I have fixed that quote. Is codex or unit type specific special or more advanced rules for shooting, normal shooting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Barbobot, I hope you understand what "normal" is.

Normal for an MC shooting attack is two weapons.
I have permission for roll a d6 to hit for every shot in range. I have a bolter and bolt pistol and the range is 8".
Cite the rule that denies me from rolling 3 d6.

As you say fling, it doesn't say you can fire multiple weapons. It says you can fire at least one weapon per model but it doesn't say if you can fire more.
We're in full agreement. You don't have permission.

s you say fling, it doesn't say you can fire multiple weapons. It says you can fire at least one weapon per model but it doesn't say if you can fire more.
We're in full agreement. You don't have permission

So we can fire at least 1 weapon per model using the permission on page 13 agreed?

rigeld2 wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 BarBoBot wrote:
Did you read the overwatch rules?

It says follow ALL the rules for shooting.

You have been provided with all the NORMAL[u] rules with the exception of defining the word "all".

I trust you know what "all" means?

I have fixed that quote. Is codex or unit type specific special or more advanced rules for shooting, normal shooting?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Barbobot, I hope you understand what "normal" is.

Normal for an MC shooting attack is two weapons.
I have permission for roll a d6 to hit for every shot in range. I have a bolter and bolt pistol and the range is 8".
Cite the rule that denies me from rolling 3 d6.

Cite the rules that allows it. In the shooting phase it is 2 weapons on that MC, is overwatch a shooting phase?
Can you show that a normal attack is what you're saying it is?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 FlingitNow wrote:

s you say fling, it doesn't say you can fire multiple weapons. It says you can fire at least one weapon per model but it doesn't say if you can fire more.
We're in full agreement. You don't have permission

So we can fire at least 1 weapon per model using the permission on page 13 agreed?

Sure... what's next?

So does page 13 give permission to fire at least 1 weapon per model? Yes or No?

 FlingitNow wrote:
So does page 13 give permission to fire at least 1 weapon per model? Yes or No?

As I answered, sure. So that's a yes.

Cool if I fired 10 weapons would the statement "I have fired at least 1 weapon" be true?

Yes it would be true. However, you cannot show permission to do so. It says what most models can do in the shooting rules, it implies 1 weapon only but it doesn't give any permission to fire more than one per model.

 liturgies of blood wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

I have permission for roll a d6 to hit for every shot in range. I have a bolter and bolt pistol and the range is 8".
Cite the rule that denies me from rolling 3 d6.

Cite the rules that allows it. In the shooting phase it is 2 weapons on that MC, is overwatch a shooting phase?
Can you show that a normal attack is what you're saying it is?

Page 13 tells me to roll a d6 for every shot in range.
I have a bolter and a bolt pistol. That's 3 shots in range.
You're asserting I'm allowed to roll no more than 2. Cite the denial.
Right now you are contradicting the actual rules and making things up for no reason. Please cite rules support for your stance.

The most relevant rule that liturgies wants to ignore is that the overwatch rule tells you to use ALL normal shooting rules.

You can not exclude some rules when it tells you to use them ALL.

A monstrous creature states that it may fire an additional weapon in the shooting phase. This is its normal rules.

I you don't allow a MC to fire 2 weapons in overwatch you are not following ALL the normal rules for shooting.

Yes it would be true. However, you cannot show permission to do so. It says what most models can do in the shooting rules, it implies 1 weapon only but it doesn't give any permission to fire more than one per model.

Your concession is accepted. You agree that it gives permission to fire at least 1 weapon, you agree that firing 2 weapons is firing at least 1 weapon. So you agree you have permission to fire 2 weapons. Sorry but you've concluded your argument.

Rigeld. I said you cannot fire more than 2 weapons in the shooting phase and you cannot show permission to fire more than 1 in overwatch. I assume you can fire 1 in overwatch as most models can roll one dice etc in the resolution of a shooting attack. You haven't shown that a shooting attack is firing more than 1 weapon but I'm sure that's what you're going to show in the next post.

I cannot cite a denial of something that there is no permission for. Similarly you cannot and have not shown permission to fire more than 1 weapon.

What am I making up please? Show what I'm making up or apologise for that now.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Yes it would be true. However, you cannot show permission to do so. It says what most models can do in the shooting rules, it implies 1 weapon only but it doesn't give any permission to fire more than one per model.

Wrong. Page 13 does not mention or imply how many weapons you can shoot. It refers to how many shots a weapon has in its profile.

Here is the rule

"Most models only get to fire one shot, however some WEAPONS are capable of firing more than once, as we'll explain in more detail late"

It mentions nothing about multiple weapons, only multiple shots from a single weapon.

The rules telling you exactly how many weapons you CAN fire is on page 51, and it tells you 1 unless otherwise stated.

MC's and multitrackers qualify as "otherwise stated", and they are absolutely part of "normal shooting rules"

you cannot show permission to fire more than 1 in overwatch.

You have already agreed such permission is on page 13. So are you now saying that page does not give permission to fire at least 1 weapon?

You have yet to show that advanced rules are normal shooting rules. That is an assertion.

Most models can fire 1 shot, unless their weapons say so, in the resolution of a shooting attack. Imply doesn't mean RAW.
RAW you can fire one shot or more if your able to but it doesn't say you can shoot multiple weapons.

The permission is clear. Overwatch says use ALL the normal rules for shooting, and multitrackers and MC rule ARE normal rules for shooting.

Also MCs and multi-trackers are shooting phase. You've still not shown how overwatch is a shooting phase. These rules don't say when shooting.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Rigeld. I said you cannot fire more than 2 weapons in the shooting phase and you cannot show permission to fire more than 1 in overwatch. I assume you can fire 1 in overwatch as most models can roll one dice etc in the resolution of a shooting attack. You haven't shown that a shooting attack is firing more than 1 weapon but I'm sure that's what you're going to show in the next post.

I mentioned it before, but I guess you need more explanation.
Units make shooting attacks (p12).
One unit can never make more than one shooting attack (p12).
One unit may shoot multiple weapons (p51).
Therefore one shooting attack can be made up of firing multiple weapons (unarguable conclusion).
Please explain why you disagree.

I cannot cite a denial of something that there is no permission for. Similarly you cannot and have not shown permission to fire more than 1 weapon.

I have a number of shots in range. You're asserting I can only roll a portion of those shots. Please explain why.

What am I making up please? Show what I'm making up or apologise for that now.

You've asserted there is no permission to fire multiple weapons. I've cited such permission twice now. You're making up a restriction and refusing to cite it. No, I won't apologize for stating that you're making up rules that do to exist, especially when you refuse to cite them.

Anyone else notice the line "uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on."?

To me, that suggests you use any normal rule for firing your weapon during the shooting phase, as that's the only section of the book that covers firing your guns. Rules as written, they wanted you to extend your logic beyond simply what's written, because why rewrite the entire rules for firing weapons just for overwatch when they can simply say "Use the rules for firing with these additional rules?"

So liturgies are you going to bow out now or actually show denial of the permission you agreed exists to fire multiple weapons as part of a shooting attack.

I posted the complete rule earlier.

Liturgies ignored it.

You have to treat overwatch as a shooting phase, because it tells you to follow ALL the shooting rules.

Every shooting rule happens in the shooting phase. You use ALL of them for overwatch.

Even if by some rationale you can't accept that overwatch is treated like a shooting phase, the only rule restricting you to firing 1 weapon ALSO says in the shooting phase.

It doesn't say one unit cannot make more than 1 shooting attack on page 12. It actually says that a unit can be nominated to make shooting attacks. You're misquoting.

One unit is fine to shoot multiple times depending on it's content. Why can one model shoot multiple times? You're not shown permission.

I cannot cite rules that don't exist. I also don't see permission which you've refused to give as it doesn't exist.

Rigeld you're obfuscating and doing the great dance of insult, shift the burden and demanding rules to disprove rules that don't exist. Feel free to report that statement. You've said I'm making things up twice by asking you to provide permission to shoot multiple weapons in overwatch and to prove that overwatch is a shooting phase. Stop calling me a liar.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 SRSFACE wrote:
Anyone else notice the line "uses all the normal rules for range, line of sight, cover saves and so on."?

To me, that suggests you use any normal rule for firing your weapon during the shooting phase, as that's the only section of the book that covers firing your guns. Rules as written, they wanted you to extend your logic beyond simply what's written, because why rewrite the entire rules for firing weapons just for overwatch when they can simply say "Use the rules for firing with these additional rules?"

Well I cannot answer what the GW design team do but they could have said "As per the shooting phase but...."

Suggestions are not RAW.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BarBoBot wrote:
I posted the complete rule earlier.

Liturgies ignored it.

You have to treat overwatch as a shooting phase, because it tells you to follow ALL the shooting rules.

Every shooting rule happens in the shooting phase. You use ALL of them for overwatch.

Even if by some rationale you can't accept that overwatch is treated like a shooting phase, the only rule restricting you to firing 1 weapon ALSO says in the shooting phase.

Even if there is no restriction you have to show permission.

Not a liar, but obtuse.

The rules have been presented to you, with rules support. You continue to try and ignore certain shooting rules when overwatch clearly tells you to use ALL of them.

I cannot cite rules that don't exist. I also don't see permission which you've refused to give as it doesn't exist.

The underlined is a lie you do see the permission and have admitted it. Stop saying stuff you have already admitted is not true. You've agreed page 13 gives permission for a model to shoot multiple weapons so show the restriction or concede.

Fling, you're misrepresenting the rules again. A unit can shoot multiple weapons if there are multiple models to fire. You've yet to show permission for a model to fire multiple weapons after checking range you don't go by units anymore.

So that a unit has permission to shoot multiple weapons it's general permission, specifics like having weapons and being in range etc limit that ability to fire. Limitations like not having permission to fire multiple weapons per model in overwatch.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Fling. Permission for a model to fire a weapon isn't permission to fire multiple weapons. What I said is we can agree that a model can fire at least 1, 1 is still at least one.

"some weapons" can fire more than once isn't the same as models can fire multiple weapons.

You've yet to show permission for a model to fire multiple weapons after checking range you don't go by units anymore.

Again with the lies I point you to:

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
So does page 13 give permission to fire at least 1 weapon per model? Yes or No?

As I answered, sure. So that's a yes.

Here you agree there is permission to fire multiple weapons for a model. So please stop with the blatant dishonesty it is doing you no favours.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Permission for a model to fire a weapon isn't permission to fire multiple weapons. What I said is we can agree that a model can fire at least 1, 1 is still at least one.

The rules don't state "a model may fire a weapon" if they did we'd not be having thus argument.

Yes 1 is at least 1, so is 2 and 3 and 37 and 578553479973119007431356....

1 is at least one. I'm sorry English allows for subjectivity of meaning but you're really desperate to call me a liar. Stop. I've asked repeatedly for you et al to stop and I'd appreciate we debate the issue and not the man.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
It doesn't say one unit cannot make more than 1 shooting attack on page 12. It actually says that a unit can be nominated to make shooting attacks. You're misquoting.

Shifting the goal post. Edit: And it does actually say that a unit cannot make more than one shooting attack. Look at step 1 of the process.
If you cannot nominate a unit that has already fired, it cannot ever make more than one shooting attack.
You originally said - and I'll quote so there's no doubt about what you said -

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Is a normal shooting attack now two shooting attacks?
Please show where it says that firing two weapons is a single attack. I can see permission to fire additional weapons in certain circumstances in the shooting phase but that doesn't make it part of the same attack.

I've proven that the rules call firing two weapons a single shooting attack. Please agree or cite reasons why.

One unit is fine to shoot multiple times depending on it's content. Why can one model shoot multiple times? You're not shown permission.

For the third time, does page 13 allow me to roll a die for every shot in range or not?

I cannot cite rules that don't exist. I also don't see permission which you've refused to give as it doesn't exist.

I've shown it. Twice before and for a third time now. I bolded it for you - further attempts to fail to address my point will be regarded as trolling.

Rigeld you're obfuscating and doing the great dance of insult, shift the burden and demanding rules to disprove rules that don't exist. Feel free to report that statement. You've said I'm making things up twice by asking you to provide permission to shoot multiple weapons in overwatch and to prove that overwatch is a shooting phase. Stop calling me a liar.

I've shown rules that exist. I've cited page numbers. I've insulted no one. I've shifted no burden.
I've not asserted that Overwatch is a shooting phase. Ever. That's irrelevant and not what I need to prove.
I absolutely have shown permission to shoot multiple weapons.
I'm not calling you a liar. I've said you're making up rules and refusing to cite them.

Perhaps you'd like to mention something even close to a rule? Because I have, without a doubt, done this.

Line 2 of roll to hit says that most models get to fire 1 shot, ie one weapon and then goes on to say what happens when weapons allow for more shots.
That is permission to fire a weapon.... or is it not and the entire shooting rules are a meaningless morass of words.

I'm sorry, is saying that you are making things up not the same as you are telling lies in your neck of the woods?

Yes we are debating the issue unfortunately you have agreed things are true and then based your entire argument on those things being false. This has been highlighted to you but you persist. So don't say there is no permission for a model to fire multiple weapons, you have already agreed that there is. So remove that part of your argument as you have agreed it is false, so sticking to that is lying.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Line 2 of roll to hit says that most models get to fire 1 shot, ie one weapon and then goes on to say what happens when weapons allow for more shots.
That is permission to fire a weapon.... or is it not and the entire shooting rules are a meaningless morass of words.

I'm sorry, is saying that you are making things up not the same as you are telling lies in your neck of the woods?

I bolded where you are completely inventing a rule.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Line 2 of roll to hit says that most models get to fire 1 shot, ie one weapon and then goes on to say what happens when weapons allow for more shots.
That is permission to fire a weapon.... or is it not and the entire shooting rules are a meaningless morass of words.

I'm sorry, is saying that you are making things up not the same as you are telling lies in your neck of the woods?

Underlined is made up by you and not present in the rules.

Correct rigeld.

That line he keeps referring to says nothing about multiple weapons. It talks about multiple shots from a single weapon. The only rules that tell you how many weapons you may fire is found in the section aptly named "more than one weapon" found on page 51 of the brb

"And so on."

It's expressly a rule, clearly written in the book in a segment that is clearly discussing rules. Is it one that doesn't define things 100% exact? Yes. Is it still something you can follow within reason?

Well seeing as it's several people against 1 right now, I'd say the intention is pretty clear. Monstrous Creatures get to fire 2 of their guns in the shooting phase. Overwatch is treated like a shooting attack and follows all the rules for it. Therefore, MCs get to fire 2 of their guns.

Seems pretty logical to me.

So the assertions you guys have are:
1)Without permission or restriction you can fire all of your weapons.

2) Overwatch is a shooting phase.

3) A shooting attack is a singular thing that a unit does in the shooting phase. (This is actually not what the brb says)

4) Because a unit could shoot multiple times a model must be able to.

As for 1, is it cool for my models with two pistols and a bolter to shoot 3 times in overwatch?

SRSface you know you're making a logical fallacy right and arguing RAI?

Don't put words in people's mouths. Everyone has posted the rules and explained their reasoning.

You have refused to back your assertions with rule support.

How could Overwatch possibly function without using the shooting phase rules?

Without page 51, all models would be able to fire all weapons all the time.

You seem to be relying on page 13.
Page 13 says 'most models only get to fire one shot'. There is nothing restrictive here: it is merely a descriptive statement (and probably completely incorrect at this point). This does not restrict you in the number of weapons you may fire, and indeed is completely inadequate for that purpose as it describes 'most' models and freely admits to the fact that some models may be able to fire more than one shot.

In fact, the entire 'shooting phase' section never actually makes reference to choosing which weapon to fire, or how to resolve shooting with more than one weapon per model. It simply gives you permission to fire, and the consequence of that (without page 51) is that you would fire with all weapons that you posses.

What assertion? That 1 dice for a models total shooting attacks would dictate 1 weapon? That's hardly an assertion.

As for questioning permission and things the rules don't say, prove me wrong. I'm not the one that put words in your mouth, I'm just listing what you're asserting. Maybe someone better at arguing can point it out clearer in the morning.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So the assertions you guys have are:
1)Without permission or restriction you can fire all of your weapons.

2) Overwatch is a shooting phase.

3) A shooting attack is a singular thing that a unit does in the shooting phase. (This is actually not what the brb says)

4) Because a unit could shoot multiple times a model must be able to.

As for 1, is it cool for my models with two pistols and a bolter to shoot 3 times in overwatch?

SRSface you know you're making a logical fallacy right and arguing RAI?

So once again more lies. This is getting tiresome:

1) with permission that you gave agreed exists

2) treating it as such is not necessary for a MC to fire 2 weapons in overwatch but does make the most sense and prevents boltgun marines from firing their boltguns, bolt pistols and grenades all at once in overwatch.

3) yes a shooting attack is singular thing. Yes you only get 1 shooting attack per unit in overwatch as covered in the Overwatch rules.

4) we are given permission to shoot our weapons we need a restriction if you want that permission to not extend to all our weapons.

By your interpretation a model with 2 pistols and a boltguns would fire 4 shots in overwatch.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
What assertion? That 1 dice for a models total shooting attacks would dictate 1 weapon? That's hardly an assertion.

As for questioning permission and things the rules don't say, prove me wrong. I'm not the one that put words in your mouth, I'm just listing what you're asserting. Maybe someone better at arguing can point it out clearer in the morning.

Page 13 is talking about multiple shots from a single weapon, and you know that. It's been pointed out countless times now. It says nothing about models being restricted to a single weapon.

Without page 51, there is no rule for how many weapons a model may fire.

 liturgies of blood wrote:


SRSface you know you're making a logical fallacy right and arguing RAI?

You realise the biggest logical fallacy that has ever been made, ever, is that there is one true form to argue?

Considering every last TO ends up interpreting rules differently, "rules as worded" is meaningless. Intention is all that matters.

^Doesn't a statement like that make you mad? Statements like "you're arguing RAI" make me really mad. It's ignorance at it's finest. It's people telling me how I should play the game. Frankly I don't care how you think I should play the game. If you want to claim rules as written as the only/purest/best way to play, be my guest. Rules as written opens up tons of loopholes and the people who argue RAW tend (not always, but tend) to be the types of people who'd rather find a loophole to gain an unfair advantage on their opponent rather than play a fair game out of respect of the fact there is another human being standing across from them that put hours, weeks and months into building their army to even bring it to game in the first place. Every "rules as worded" argument is in fact a rules as intended argument, whether you see it that way or not. Also, the OP never stated the entire discussion was rules as worded, so someone coming in with a viewpoint other than that is still a thing that's allowed.

I am arguing how the rules read, by the way. I clearly read overwatch is treated "as a shooting attack" and I also clearly read MCs can fire "up to two of their weapons each shooting phase." As the shooting phase defines the rules for shooting attacks, I extrapolate that to mean how you fire your guns in the shooting phase is also how you fire your weapons in overwatch, with the additional rules entailed for overwatch. Otherwise, we have no rules for shooting attacks, really, at the end of the day.

How do you even get off with #4 there? Seriously. How do you even leap to that conclusion? People are pointing to the rule that states MCs can fire two of their guns as the reason MCs get to fire two of their guns in overwatch. Find me the rule that says basic infantry get to do it. No one ever argued basic infantry get to do it. No one was ever jumping to that conclusion, and the argument that MCs get to fire two of their guns in overwatch would never have lead people to do that. That's like saying allowing gay marriage means government should also allow bestiality. No one was ever making that argument and accusing people of going that far is pedantic.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
What assertion? That 1 dice for a models total shooting attacks would dictate 1 weapon? That's hardly an assertion.

It is indeed an assertion and one not based on rules. At that point we don't know how many weapons are involved. They could be going all Ghostbusters and crossing the streams so 4 weapons is 1 shot. It makes no mention of the number of weapons a model can fire. Therefore permission to fire any of a models weapons is permission to fire them all.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
So the assertions you guys have are:
1)Without permission or restriction you can fire all of your weapons.

Top of page 12:
"During the Shooding phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks."
Nowhere else in the Shooting Phase section is any reference made to number of weapons. The passage on pg13 can only be termed 'descriptive' as it admits there are exceptions to the 'most' rule, and does not make any reference at all to number of weapons, but rather to number of shots.
There is no basis for extending 'most models only get to make one shot' to 'this model may make 3 shots, but can only take the 2 of them that come from 1 weapon.'

The restriction on firing multiple weapons ONLY appears on page 51, and RAW ONLY applies to the shooting phase.

2) Overwatch is a shooting phase/

Nope. We're saying that (for the purposes of MCs or Battlesuits etc firing multiple weapons, it doesn't matter.

3) A shooting attack is a singular thing that a unit does in the shooting phase. (This is actually not what the brb says)

? Nope.

4) Because a unit could shoot multiple times a model must be able to.

This doesn't really hold water, but we're only trying to adapt to your weird 'shooting attack = 1 shot with 1 weapon' rule that you've invented.

As for 1, is it cool for my models with two pistols and a bolter to shoot 3 times in overwatch?

That is the logical consequence of attempting to restrict MC's from firing two weapons on the basis that overwatch is not a shooting phase, because that simultaneously admits that the restriction on multiple weapons no longer applies.

As for 3, that's actually not what the rules say.
During the shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

So that is unit singular, attacks plural.... That means that the unit is making the attacks plural and then you're told how to resolve those shots.
Similarly their is no mention of an overwatch attack being made by the unit. A unit may fire overwatch but that's not the same.

So for a start you guys can't even read the 1st line of the description of the shooting phase's steps.

Most models refers to the normal shooting attack, the basic rules. If 1 d6 rolled for most models as their total shooting attack is more than 1 weapon at play, please explain.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
1)Without permission or restriction you can fire all of your weapons.

Nope - that's your flawed interpretation. I've cited permission 3 times and you've failed to actually address it 3 times.

2) Overwatch is a shooting phase.

Nope. Unless someone I have on ignore is saying this. The rules certainly don't support it.

3) A shooting attack is a singular thing that a unit does in the shooting phase. (This is actually not what the brb says)

Um. The BRB absolutely does say that a unit can only make one shooting attack.
Because a unit that has already made one cannot be nominated to make another. Seems pretty cut and dry to me - I pointed out your mistake earlier but you again have failed to actually read and comprehend my post.

4) Because a unit could shoot multiple times a model must be able to.

Well, yes. Since there is such a thing as a single model unit, and we know there are times (commonly, ie in literally every codex) where a single model unit will shoot multiple weapons.
In addition to the fact that you were completely wrong when you said a single shooting attack could not be firing two weapons...

As for 1, is it cool for my models with two pistols and a bolter to shoot 3 times in overwatch?

According to your argument that's exactly what happens. As I've demonstrated. So are you finally agreeing?

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How could Overwatch possibly function without using the shooting phase rules?

It can't without the shooting rules but does that make it a shooting phase?
The assault phase cannot work without the shooting phase as it builds on it's mechanics... does that make the assault phase a shooting phase too?

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How could Overwatch possibly function without using the shooting phase rules?

It can't without the shooting rules but does that make it a shooting phase?
The assault phase cannot work without the shooting phase as it builds on it's mechanics... does that make the assault phase a shooting phase too?

Again, if its NOT a shooting phase (which is what your implying) then page 51 doesn't apply. Page 51 has the ONLY rules for how many weapons a model may shoot. Without page 51 you may fire unlimited weapons.

Page 13 is irrelevant as it does not mention multiple weapons, only multiple shots from a single weapon. Read the rules.

Where does it contradict page 12, top of the page 1st line under Nominate Unit to Shoot?

Where does it say that a shooting attack is 1 per unit?

I'm actually asking. I'm not taking the piss. Where does it say that a unit can only make 1 shooting attack? I cannot see that on page 12. What it says in my brb I've pposted at the top of this page.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Where does it contradict page 12, top of the page 1st line under Nominate Unit to Shoot?

Where does it say that a shooting attack is 1 per unit?

I'm actually asking. I'm not taking the piss. Where does it say that a unit can only make 1 shooting attack? I cannot see that on page 12. What it says in my brb I've pposted at the top of this page.

Step one of the shooting phase process.
Exactly like I've said multiple times.
Am I on ignore?

Page 12 "choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet fired this turn"

First step of the shooting sequence

Are you asking where it says that a unit may not perform more than one shooting attack per shooting phase?
Page 12, 'The Shooting Sequence' cutout box, Step 1.
"Nominate a Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet, fire this turn."

Words to the same effect are found just above there (page 12 2nd paragraph) and similarly in the rules summary on page 426 (with subtle variations that lead to other 'disputes')

 liturgies of blood wrote:

 PrinceRaven wrote:
How could Overwatch possibly function without using the shooting phase rules?

It can't without the shooting rules but does that make it a shooting phase?
The assault phase cannot work without the shooting phase as it builds on it's mechanics... does that make the assault phase a shooting phase too?

Well, either:
1. A "normal shooting attack" is considered to be one made in the shooting phase and uses all of the shooting phase rules, so MCs can fire 2 weapons in overwatch.
2. Overwatch is completely divorced from the shooting phase and after overwatch is declared you don't have any rules to tell you how to resolve the shooting attack.
3. Some shooting phase rules apply but not others, and we arbitrarily decide which ones work and which ones don't because the overwatch rules, unlike the the assault phase rules, do not specify.

As for 3, that's actually not what the rules say.
During the shooting phase, a unit containing models armed with ranged weapons can be nominated to make shooting attacks.

So that is unit singular, attacks plural.... That means that the unit is making the attacks plural and then you're told how to resolve those shots.

How many shooting attacks does a unit of 10 models get to make during Overwatch?

Here's what the rules have go say on the matter:

BrB page 20 wrote:
Then, the target enemy unit gets to make a special kind of shooting attack called Overwatch (see opposite)

Emphasis mine.

So are you saying that they can only take one shot (e.g. if they have an assault cannon they fire a single shot instead of four)?

Also I'm pretty sure that the article a is relating to the noun kind, not attack.

Edit: Fixing spelling and grammar in this grammar related post.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
1 is at least one. I'm sorry English allows for subjectivity of meaning but you're really desperate to call me a liar. Stop. I've asked repeatedly for you et al to stop and I'd appreciate we debate the issue and not the man.

Indeed.


It's toy soldiers not a court of law.

Drager wrote:
So are you saying that they can only take one shot (e.g. if they have an assault cannon they fire a single shot instead of four)?

Also I'm pretty sure that the article a is relating to the noun kind, not attack.

Edit: Fixing spelling and grammar in this grammar related post.

No I'm staying they make 1 shooting attack which is comprised of potentially many shots from potentially many weapons. It is still 1 shooting attack.

That's not what the rules say fling. The rules say that a unit makes shooting attacks.
There is no rules basis for a unit only making 1 shooting attack.
So there is no basis for the a shooting attack is multiple attacks.

Well in Overwatch you only get to make 1 shooting attack...

So overwatch is one shot only? As it's described as 1 shooting attack while the shooting phase describes a plural of shooting attacks for a unit.

So is a shooting attack all of a unit's shots as per overwatch or is it one of a number of attacks a unit can carry out as per the shooting phase rules?

A shooting attack contains a number of shots from a number of weapons as described in the shooting rules. In overwatch you get 1 shooting attack which contains a number of shots from number of weapons as described in the shooting rules.

You've still failed to show a denial of the permission you agree is present to fire multiple weapons. Please cite that or concede.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
That's not what the rules say fling. The rules say that a unit makes shooting attacks.
There is no rules basis for a unit only making 1 shooting attack.
So there is no basis for the a shooting attack is multiple attacks.

Really? So the following sentence doesn't exist in the rules?

p12 wrote:Nominate Unit to Shoot. Choose one of your units that is able to, but has not yet, fire this turn.

You should take your rulebook and get a new copy then - it's defective.

That doesn't mean one shooting attack per unit. It means you can make shooting attacks once a turn.

You should take back your assertions they're defective.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
That doesn't mean one shooting attack per unit. It means you can make shooting attacks once a turn.

No, it means that you cannot nominate a unit for a shooting attack after it has completed one.
That means the unit can only make a singular shooting attack because when you attempt to nominate for a second shooting attack you are forbidden.

You seem to be missing the top of page 12 where it says you nominate a unit to make shooting attacks....
I agree the rules say you cannot choose a unit that has already fired this turn. That doesn't state that a shooting attack is one per unit.

Please explain why the rules say something different to you?

 liturgies of blood wrote:
You seem to be missing the top of page 12 where it says you nominate a unit to make shooting attacks....
I agree the rules say you cannot choose a unit that has already fired this turn. That doesn't state that a shooting attack is one per unit.

Please explain why the rules say something different to you?

I'm not missing that at all.

After reading more into it, however, each model fires a shooting attack as part of a unit.
So each model makes a shooting attack. I have permission to roll a d6 for every weapon in range for my shooting attack.
Why are you forbidding me from rolling 1 of those d6?

Ok, now we are getting somewhere. You stance has evolved as opposed to being wrong.

So a shooting attack is equated with a model firing? Y/N

 reds8n wrote:

 liturgies of blood wrote:
1 is at least one. I'm sorry English allows for subjectivity of meaning but you're really desperate to call me a liar. Stop. I've asked repeatedly for you et al to stop and I'd appreciate we debate the issue and not the man.

Indeed.


It's toy soldiers not a court of law.

*Initiates slow clap*

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok, now we are getting somewhere. You stance has evolved as opposed to being wrong.

So a shooting attack is equated with a model firing? Y/N

A model fires. That firing is resolved as a shooting attack.
I think that's the most correct way to put it.

For vehicles it's slightly different - each weapon is a single shooting attack.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok, now we are getting somewhere. You stance has evolved as opposed to being wrong.

So a shooting attack is equated with a model firing? Y/N

How is it that his opinion is wrong?

Your the one who hasn't backed up anything with rules.

Ok. So a shooting attack is firing a weapon, yes a vehicle gets a few attacks etc. So you'd agree a normal shooting attack for a MC is not firing two weapons? A MC gets two normal shooting attacks in the shooting phase?

So the shooting attack for most models is 1 dice unless their weapon says they have shots? Y/N

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok, now we are getting somewhere. You stance has evolved as opposed to being wrong.

So a shooting attack is equated with a model firing? Y/N

Dude, we are on page 4. You have yet to make a solid argument for your cause and refuse to acknowledge the other side of the debate.

Why don't you take a day to reorganize your side of the discussion and continue this tomorrow? You aren’t going to win anyone over at this point in time and you have yet to concede an inch. At this point, both sides might as well be screaming at a wall.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok. So a shooting attack is firing a weapon, yes a vehicle gets a few attacks etc. So you'd agree a normal shooting attack for a MC is not firing two weapons? A MC gets two normal shooting attacks in the shooting phase?

So the shooting attack for most models is 1 dice unless their weapon says they have shots? Y/N

No. Page 51 tells you exactly how many weapons you can shoot, and the weapons profile tells you how many shots. Those are printed rules, not assertions like the ones you continue to make.

 liturgies of blood wrote:
Ok. So a shooting attack is firing a weapon, yes a vehicle gets a few attacks etc. So you'd agree a normal shooting attack for a MC is not firing two weapons? A MC gets two normal shooting attacks in the shooting phase?

No, I would not agree to that - there is nothing stating that. Ever.
So far the only reference I can see to a model having multiple shooting attacks is vehicles.

Hmmm, after searching through the rules, shooting attack is used interchangeably for a unit's fire and a weapon being fired. So the answer to what is "a normal shooting attack" is at best ambiguous. Either it's a full round of fire from a unit minus the restriction of firing only one weapon or it's permission for a unit firing a weapon on each model. There is nothing to say that overwatch is a shooting phase so that's not in play.

Since lines one and two of rolling to hit equates firing with all of the available shots in a weapon. I'm for option two but I can see that option one is just as valid.

LOL so funny. Arguing about a normal shooting attack. It's overwatch people not the end of the world. They need sixes to hit.

What is normal for a space marine, vs a MC , OR A Tau battle suit are different. One shoots 1 gun, the other two shoot two, cause see that's normal shooting attack, though in the opponents assault phase.


It's not rocket surgery.

Chas

How can you post "LOL so funny" about people arguing over a topic and then post your version of the arguement straight after.

I was about to post something, but then I realized this argument was one of the ones that will never end. It'll keep and going on and on my friends...

But really, sometimes I wish forums like these had a report for stupidity button...

Crazyterran wrote:
I was about to post something, but then I realized this argument was one of the ones that will never end. It'll keep and going on and on my friends...

But really, sometimes I wish forums like these had a report for stupidity button...

Actually RAI is always over RAW. Check every major tournament FAQ. This question will mostly not come up because we understand RAI.

So for the folks that think its a shooting phase, can I run instead?
Why did GW put the "in the shooting phase" restriction?

What is a normal shooting attack? It's not defined big surprise
Btw the "he can not fire both in the same shooting phase" doesn't apply to female models or models with 3 or more guns or outside the shooting phase. However the "Unless otherwise stated if a model has more than one shooting weapon, he must choose which one to shoot" does not saying anything about the shooting phase at all. Nor is it in the defined in the shooting phase section. It is however only a restriction on male models....

And to the poster that said 6s to hit you have clearly never played against tau gun line.

Kisada II wrote:
Btw the "he can not fire both in the same shooting phase" doesn't apply to female models...

It actually does.

He is a generic term for a male or a female.

Kisada II wrote:
So for the folks that think its a shooting phase, can I run instead?

No one has, so...

What is a normal shooting attack? It's not defined big surprise

So we go with a normal English definition. Which would be the same shooting attack that would get used absent any other special rules. Meaning, my god, MCs get 2 shots.

It really does come down to what "a normal shooting attack" is for a MC. Being able to fire two weapons might be considered two shooting attacks, or it might be a single shooting attack with two weapons. Until an FAQ tells us we can have no RAW resolution to this debate, simply what we think the RAI are meant to be.

I'm inclined to believe its the latter because both weapons fire simultaneously and are fired at the same target, mostly its the simultaneously though. In my head if I picture whats going on with say an action hero then the hero has a gun in each hand raining death upon his enemies. Looks like a single attack to me. However if he fired one weapon and dropped it then grabbed another weapon and fired that I would see that as two separate actions, or attacks. This is just my opinion and unfortunately we can't get anything more definitive than opinions on this,

If a shooting attack was considered to be only one weapon you could only fire with 1 model in a unit every time you make a shooting attack.

I thought this was a simple rule..............

Page 21

Resolve overwatch:

"An overwatch attack is resolved like a normal shooting attack."

However there are also restrictions laid out.

All shots are resolved as Snap Shots
Cannot cause morale or pinning checks

If you resolve overwatch as a normal shooting attack, Then you're units normal "shooting attack" can be put in place. So if you are able to fire more than 1 weapon in the shooting phase as part of your shooting attack then you can fire more than one weapon in the overwatch.

^ That's far too sensible and logical for half the people on YMDC.

Raven A shooting attack is described on page 12 as being things that a unit of models can make. On page 13 it's described in snap shots as a weapon firing. If you'd like to show a quote that clears up what GW means by a shooting attack it'd be great but in no way is it defined clearly as something a unit does that consists of firing multiple weapons.

It's rather unclear what a shooting attack is.

Rigeld, you didn't but someone that I probably should have on ignore too, keeps asserting that overwatch is a shooting phase.

Liturgies of Blood,
The issue with the ideal that a shooting attack equals an attack with a single weapon stems from the problems it would cause within the Shooting Sequence itself. The very first step on the sequence is to nominate a unit to shoot, and the restriction within that step is that they must not have already fired during that Shooting Phase. As the unit in question has carried out a shooting attack, it would be an illegal option to chose that unit again to carry out another Shooting attack, regardless of how many additional weapons it has permission to fire. It would need something more specific giving permission to be a legal choice to shoot a second time. I have seen only one or two rules that contain such terminology, and the general 'fire an additional weapon' do not match those rules.

Should it be deemed enough then it raises some other questions that lead to conclusions that are known to be incorrect. To use the most obvious example, if it is an entirely different Shooting Attack we would have no grounds to deny an opponent the ability to do all the steps in the Shooting sequence again. This would include the ability to nominate a target, with no stated restriction that it has to be the same as the target for the original weapon, so all models with rules to fire two weapons would be allowed to choose a secondary target as well. That makes me wonder why I am wasting points on Target Locks just to get to nominate a secondary target if I can already do so....

So while I understand that you want things to be made a little more clear by the writers, I fully agree that things should be undoubtedly precise when it comes to rules, the logical conclusion from your line of questioning leads to far more broken conclusions then the alternative ideal that permission to fire multiple weapons simply means permission to nominate a secondary weapon during that Step of a single Shooting sequence.

Jinx - units don't carry out shooting attacks from what I can tell, models do.

Rigeld2,
We both know that the shooting sequence is something done on both the 'unit level' and the 'model level,' so it is splitting hairs at this point.

All that matters is one simple fact: to carry out a shooting attack we follow a designated sequence. The very first step in this sequence is to nominate a unit that has not yet fired, which makes nominating a unit a second time illegal. Nominating the unit a second time during the Shooting Phase would be required to carry out a second shooting attack during this moment, like wise similar restrictions on which unit's are legally allowed to fire exist within over-watch as well. If firing a secondary weapon does not fall under the first shooting attack, then it renders all these 'may fire an additional weapon' Rules as irrelevant because there is no legal moment we can evoke these rules.

JinxDragon wrote:
The very first step in this sequence is to nominate a unit that has not yet fired,

"Nominated to make shooting attacks" is what the rule says.
It's fustratingly vague.
It says attacks, plural, not singular.
And is that one unit makes shooting attacks? Or are units plural too? Meaning many units make many shooting attacks?
If one unit makes shooting attacks, is that one attack per model? Per weapon?

Rigeld2 could well be right, it could be that an attack is per model. He could also be wrong, it's unfortuatly too unclear.

Yet the Overwatch rules require a unit to make a single shooting attack. So if each model makes a shooting attack then only 1 model from any unit can ever overwatch.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yet the Overwatch rules require a unit to make a single shooting attack. So if each model makes a shooting attack then only 1 model from any unit can ever overwatch.

That's the core of the problem.
"Shooting Attack" is just so poorly defined.

 grendel083 wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yet the Overwatch rules require a unit to make a single shooting attack. So if each model makes a shooting attack then only 1 model from any unit can ever overwatch.

That's the core of the problem.
"Shooting Attack" is just so poorly defined.

Agreed.

Add it to the list, by all means, because it could be better defined.

 grendel083 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
The very first step in this sequence is to nominate a unit that has not yet fired,

"Nominated to make shooting attacks" is what the rule says.
It's fustratingly vague.
It says attacks, plural, not singular.
And is that one unit makes shooting attacks? Or are units plural too? Meaning many units make many shooting attacks?
If one unit makes shooting attacks, is that one attack per model? Per weapon?

Rigeld2 could well be right, it could be that an attack is per model. He could also be wrong, it's unfortuatly too unclear.

I would disagree with the "shooting attack" being SO vague...

IMO "shooting attack" refers to following the shooting sequence.
The phrase you refer to as plural is because one unit may "shooting attack" more than once, if it split fires for example, in which case it moves through the sequence twice.

JinxDragon wrote:
Rigeld2,
We both know that the shooting sequence is something done on both the 'unit level' and the 'model level,' so it is splitting hairs at this point.

It's not splitting hairs - it's a very important point to understand.

All that matters is one simple fact: to carry out a shooting attack we follow a designated sequence. The very first step in this sequence is to nominate a unit that has not yet fired, which makes nominating a unit a second time illegal.

Not really a relevant point. You're not nominating a unit twice to have a model make multiple shooting attacks (which is actually possible - each weapon on a vehicle is a separate shooting attack).

Nominating the unit a second time during the Shooting Phase would be required to carry out a second shooting attack during this moment, like wise similar restrictions on which unit's are legally allowed to fire exist within over-watch as well. If firing a secondary weapon does not fall under the first shooting attack, then it renders all these 'may fire an additional weapon' Rules as irrelevant because there is no legal moment we can evoke these rules.

Absolutely false.
Assuming each weapon is a separate shooting attack:
I nominate unit Pikachu.
Pika 1 is a MC. He fires his Lightning Attack.
Pika 2 is a normal dude. He fires his Lightning Attack.
Pika 1 also fires his Poke-something attack.

3 shooting attacks, one nomination. Now, I don't believe this is the correct interpretation but your assertions aren't correct.


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 BlackTalos wrote:

 grendel083 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
The very first step in this sequence is to nominate a unit that has not yet fired,

"Nominated to make shooting attacks" is what the rule says.
It's fustratingly vague.
It says attacks, plural, not singular.
And is that one unit makes shooting attacks? Or are units plural too? Meaning many units make many shooting attacks?
If one unit makes shooting attacks, is that one attack per model? Per weapon?

Rigeld2 could well be right, it could be that an attack is per model. He could also be wrong, it's unfortuatly too unclear.

I would disagree with the "shooting attack" being SO vague...

IMO "shooting attack" refers to following the shooting sequence.
The phrase you refer to as plural is because one unit may "shooting attack" more than once, if it split fires for example, in which case it moves through the sequence twice.

No, it doesn't. You never nominate a unit twice, which is part of the shooting sequence.
Witchfires are also described as Psychic Shooting Attacks. Unless you're asserting those are used instead of a unit firing, it's models that make shooting attacks.

Rigeld2,
I'm starting to see ways that we could resolve multiple 'model level' shooting attacks within a single sequence but there is still problems that need to be thought on when I have reference material to review.

One of the questions I have is the following:
How does this prevent a single model from nominating a second weapon during their 'individual shooting attack?'

The problem I was trying to bring to the boards attention is that the sequence has to include the ability to nominate a second weapon, if the model has permission to do so, as there is no other way for it to function. That entire sequence is used once so we do not have the ability to calculate the second weapon unless it is included in the Shooting sequence. Therefore the individual model would still have permission to nominate a second weapon at that point in the sequence, even if the model's are the ones resolving the shooting attacks, and we need precise restrictions stating the model no longer has access to this choice.

Even if we stop the shooting attack from being a 'unit event' and instead state it is something a 'model' does, nothing has changed because the sequence is still the same.

JinxDragon wrote:
How does this prevent a single model from nominating a second weapon during their 'individual shooting attack?'

It doesn't. But using the correct ideas in your argument is important, even if the result is the same.
Show your work.

The 'work' I had behind the argument is simple:
I was trying to figure out how it would be possible for a secondary weapon to be denied during over-watch and worked backwards from there.

The only conclusion that I could come up with is that the secondary weapon must have some unique permission to use the Shooting sequence a secondary time. All other conclusions, that they are part of that shooting sequence, make it legal to nominate a secondary weapon during Over-watch and therefore go against the original premise. That above conclusion would make it possible to ban the secondary weapon from over-watch but had a negative side effect of making it illegal to use during the normal shooting sequence.

As it currently stands, I can not figure out a way that we would be able to deny secondary weapons during Over-watch which do not deny them during the standard Shooting Phase.

At that point I wasn't considering unit/model shooting angle, I fixated on how it could not be a valid conclusion because it would require the entire unit to be nominated a second time, which is an interesting line of thought. It creates it's own problems, the most of being that it doesn't prevent the weapon from being denied during over-watch which renders it even less useful a conclusion for the topic on hand. Still very interesting to think on, and does highlight the fact 'shooting attack' could be better defined which is what a few posters here are requesting. If only we had some sway with the editors but all the banana jokes have ensured they don't like us.....

JinxDragon wrote:
As it currently stands, I can not figure out a way that we would be able to deny secondary weapons during Over-watch which do not deny them during the standard Shooting Phase.

Exactly. I agree with your conclusion, but you were making statements that were incorrect. Just wanted to make sure your work in the middle was correct.

Rigeld2,
I was working off a flawed premise to begin with, one I don't personally believe in either. This makes it so I am not at all surprised that I over looked something, which I still feel is only a minor mistake, because I was looking at a far bigger flaw in the equation. The very premise itself is something not supported by any precise Rule, and no fundamental I can think on would change the resolution for over-watch without changing the resolution for attacks during the Shooting Phase. There is just nothing I can come up with which supports that point of view, however it is often one I have encountered as a Tau player, so I am still quite interested as to where it is coming from.

What is overwatch.

 megatombuscus wrote:
What is overwatch.

Check the Index of the 6th edition BRB for the Overwatch page number, this will tell you everything you need to know about Overwatch.

DeathReaper,
I think MegaTomBuscus was hoping someone would answer so they could point and go 'see, so why are you treating it like anything else?'