This is something that has been developing in my mind for a while now. I have never really understood why a person would identify with one of the lesser chapters until I realize the true difference between Ultramarine Successors and the Successors of other chapters.
The Ultramarines are not perfect (no human or Astartes is), but here goes one of my better explanations for why people are drawn to the Ultramarines.
Beginning of transmission"
Ultramarines are by far the best call, with Imperial Fists or Raptors being the next best.
Think about it though, an Ultramarine would have come from Ultramar, which is pretty much the most normal and prosperous region in the Imperium. An Ultramarine would have had a relatively normal family and a good upbringing in a place where the dream of the Imperium was fully realized. Other Marines are largely from depressing, derelict, savage hell holes and are psychologically messed up right down to their cores. Most other Marines aren't really fighting for anything other than a Chapter Ideology or for the love of fighting and killing itself.
An Ultramarine will leave Ultramar and fight far and wide and they will be exposed to all the hellish ugliness that exists in the universe and they will always remember that out there somewhere is a place worth fighting for, a reality that they can bring to fruition with their own hands and deeds.
Coming from Ultramar, an Ultramarine knows for a fact that they, as Space Marines, are a literal hard line that stands between all that is good and all that is evil. That's why they are so brutally meticulous.
It's cool if other chapters want to play around at being Timmy Tough-asses and seeing who can be a bigger crazier drunken brawler or a more flesh hating hard ass or a better secret keeping-former brother hunting-rock in space living Marine, because these types of Marines are useful to the Imperium in a smaller and more specialized way.
Ultramarines, however, get things done. They know that the only thing standing between light and darkness is they themselves. That is what creates their sense of urgency and why they spend every ounce of their time and energy on absolute perfection in their training and preparation. They do not have time to waste in trying to prove that they are wild tough guys, or to worry about their dead primarch, or seek vengeance for some event in the past. They only have time to prepare for the next challenge....... for the next cry for help that rings out in the Astronomican.
Ultramarines leave specialization and being a unique (angry) little butterfly for the children.
I'm not denying that other forces and Chapters provide an important service to the Imperium, but if you were to think of the defenders of the Imperium as a human body, the Ultramarines are the brain and the skeletal system upon which everything else is built and based.
End of"
Plenty of other Chapters are pretty cool, and would be fun to be a part of, and even the Guard has parts that make it appealing, but the Ultramarines and its close successors are a different breed. Even amongst Astartes.
How could you not be an Ultramarine? What drove you to seek refuge with a lesser chapter?
Don't forget that nobility in the Ultramar domain is greatly enhanced if you can point at a portrait on the wall and say "that's great-great-grand-uncle Verus who joined the Ultramarines". Every last inbred noble family tries to get a scion through the screenings whenever the UM recruit, and the Chapter accepts some of them just to keep them happy.
Why do you think they don't live as long as other marines? Their genetech largely goes to covering up the effects of having too few great-grandparents.
Well, I'm not a primary Marines player, but here's why I chose the Marines that I did;
We had a duty. We were the wardens of a tear in space. We were at the forefront of the battle against the evils of Chaos. Our duty held us strongly, gripped us with purpose. So great was the threat our charge posed that two other Chapters were set against it. Together, we were the Maelstrom Wardens, a powerful bulwark against the renegade - and worse.
Ootheca, our home, wasn't the greatest world of the Imperium, but it was ours. Then the tithe ships came to neighbouring Badab. Our dear friends, the Astral Claws, were held ransom by fiends posing as the Adeptus Terra. They protected themselves, and again from more strikes. Then a strike at our hearts- the Fire Hawks attacked our home system without warning or offer of parlay. We had been betrayed by the very Imperium we had sacrificed so much to protect.
More came, and more. We held them at bay, bouyed by the assistance of the other Maelstrom Warders and the Astral Claws' debt-allies, the Executioners. We suffered for our honour, our ancient alliances, but we persevered. We struck. We hunted.
All for nothing. Though it was the Fire Hawks' incompetence that had pulled us into this war, it was the perfidy - the outright duplicity - of our supposed friend Huron that had begat it.
Once, we were the thin green line between the Maelstrom and the Imperium. Now, we are reduced to penitent scraps. We were heroes, now we struggle to earn forgiveness for the crime of holding honour above duty.
We are the Mantis Warriors, and we will not make the same mistake again.
As my title I play Space Wolves and here is why I chose to be a son of Fenrir
I was choosen by the Rune priests to join the sky warriors in Asaheim, there my body and mind was enhanced and the wild urges for bloodshed temperd into cold burning hatred by my new pack.
I was clad in war plate and gifted with both bolter and axe, and thus I left my old home world behind to ply the stars and bring the fury of Russ down upon the happless heretics and xenos that infest the galaxy.
But it is not only from without our foes comes.....Even from he ranks of the Imperium comes those whom seeks our demise! But let them all come, not one weak willed fool will set foot in the Fang while even a single wolf draws breath!
We also know that Ultramarines suffer from crippling stupidity and adhere religiously to the Codex, to the point that they execute/send on a suicide mission anyone who deviates from it heavily. Ventris for example deviated massively from the Codex in order to save his company and ensure some of their number survived, protect a planet, and fight off what IIRC was a hive splinter fleet. He was rewarded by being sent on a suicidal penitent crusade with one other guy into the Eye of Terror, resulting from a horribly stupid kangaroo court.
If anything, the Ultramarines are one of the most backwater chapters, fetishizing the codex, making them also incredibly vulnerable to competent enemies fully out-maneuvering them on combat by knowing exactly how they'll think. The only remarkable thing about the Ultramarine is the resources they command, as the only reason why they've even survived for ten millennium is logistics (primarily their fleet), and certainly not skill in combat or proper command of their own forces. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Chaos Space Marine renegades resulted from derpy Ultramarines and their descendents sending small squads on suicide missions into the eye of terror as punishment, not realizing that they're just as likely to grow a brain and join the Black Legion rather than continue to serve the flying rodent gak insane Chapter.
Hell, Ultramarines and descending Chapters that fetishize the Codex are so easy to protect that a single Alpha Legionnaire supported by a Black Legion warband completely wiped out a whole Chapter of a thousand marines in one fell swoop. The only good thing about the Ultramarines and their descendents is that they at least serve as the PDF of Space marines to serve as a giant buffer against invading Tyranids and soak up casualties they can easily replace. Meanwhile, the Sons of Dorn are busy fighting this extremely dangerous enemy known as 'Chaos'.
Well here's why I chose my homeless chapter:
Once, we were among the mightiest of the emperor's warriors. We guarded the eye of terror with mind body and soul, we were the immortal knights. But then, the whisperings of chaos changed some of us. On the eve of battle, they attacked us from behind, over half of us dead or turned. We fled that day, never again. We are the forsaken knights, and we will have our vengeance, the dead of mortalis will be avenged, and then we will join the emperor, lest the corruption of chaos spread from our history and into our future.
Now, I don't know about anyone else, but I personally don't see the Codex Astartes as a book saying "If charged by Eldar, you MUST charge back." (for example). I see it as a guideline, a handy source of advice, not a cookbook. So in the aforementioned scenario, it would say, "Eldar are vulnerable to countercharges." Also, I would like to see instances of this "Stupidity" by following the Codex. Just my two bolter shells.
Ventris and Pasanius were not sent on their Penitent Crusade because they deviated from the Codex, they were sent on it because they disobeyed orders. As a Captain, Ventris answers to one person overall, Marneus Calgar. Who's orders he disobeyed! There was already a squad of Deathwatch ready to strike, and should they have needed reinforcements, Ventris could've sent up a fraction of his own forces. And Space Marines are indoctrinated to "Die in the name of the Emperor". Why should going on a Pentinent Crusade change that? A truly loyal Space Marine should go on a Crusade seeking death or to redeem himself in the eyes of his peers. Only a flawed Astartes would turn renegade in this situation, thus not accounting for the vast majority of Ultramarines (whose geneseed is proven over and over to be one of the most, if not the most, stable in the galaxy!).
Not every Space Marine chapter can be a glorified werewolf Viking, or a raging Vampire, or a bike riding Mongol, or a flesh-hater with a metal fetish. The descendants of the Ultramarines are the bread and butter Chapters, the paragons of normality, but are they any less important? They far outnumber the amount of any other Chapter's descendants. Every Space Marine Chapter is a valuable asset, capable of bringing ruin to whole star systems. The Astral Knights took out a giant Necron planet-ship, saving a whole sector from destruction, at the cost of their lives. And someone has to stop the Tyranid threat and the Tau Menace (?). Where would your precious Son's of Dorn be if there were no Ultramarines or their successors? In the bellies of Hive Ships. And there are Ultramarine descendants located near the Eye of Terror, fighting Chaos. There were Ultramarine descendants fighting in the Badab War, and IIRC, a Ultramarines Honour Company was deployed to fight in the Thirteenth Black Crusade.
I'm not putting down the Ultramarines in general. Just Ventris.
Ventris was a bad Ultramarine. He put his life above his duty (Nightbringer incident). He put his personal glory above his duty (Tyranid incident). I gave up after that point.
Death to the smurfs! The arrogance and stupidity of the overly dogmatic Ultramarines ensures that they are far from being the best chapter and it severely impedes their combat effectiveness. (Also, Ultramar is probably the worst hellhole in the Imperium and the Ultramarines saying otherwise is just propaganda to make themselves look good ) On the other hand, if Ultramar is indeed such a neat place, it means that it's people are softer and weaker and make for less powerful warriors and survivors than people from a death world. Also, compared to the Salamanders, the Ultramarines are ruthless, opressive dictators. The Salamanders truly are the best of all Astartes. In short; the Ultramarines are arrogant dogmatic dicks who are completely full of themselves, which is why so many people dislike them. The Ultramarines are far from being the best chapter. They have some very serious issues.
To be fair, he had no idea the Psychic Scourge was corrupy and did it under Inquisitor Drogan's orders, who is an INQUISITOR and should be obeyed by everyone under him, including Captains of the Adeptus Astartes. But you're a Space Wolf, you wouldn't understand Inquisitorial Authority.
Ultramarines are popular because they're normal. They're like soldiers, they obey combat doctrine. Not all Ultramarines do this, however (Titus, what a guy), and those guys are probably the best of the Ultramarines.
Whoever said that the Ultramarines have the purest Geneseed, so do the Imperial Fists. There's nothing wrong with their geneseed and they're the progenitors to the largest chapter to have ever existed, the Black Templars, and they don't seem to have any problems whereas the Fire Hawks (rumored UM successor) burst into flames IIRC. Or that might have been the Flame Falcons...
Sgt_Smudge wrote: To be fair, he had no idea the Psychic Scourge was corrupy and did it under Inquisitor Drogan's orders, who is an INQUISITOR and should be obeyed by everyone under him, including Captains of the Adeptus Astartes. But you're a Space Wolf, you wouldn't understand Inquisitorial Authority.
Anything with the words Inqusitor and psyker releated stuff should be a warning to anyone. And why yes I never where good at ebnding my knees to anyone not of the same chapter as me
BrotherOfBone wrote: Ultramarines are popular because they're normal. They're like soldiers, they obey combat doctrine. Not all Ultramarines do this, however (Titus, what a guy), and those guys are probably the best of the Ultramarines.
Whoever said that the Ultramarines have the purest Geneseed, so do the Imperial Fists. There's nothing wrong with their geneseed and they're the progenitors to the largest chapter to have ever existed, the Black Templars, and they don't seem to have any problems whereas the Fire Hawks (rumored UM successor) burst into flames IIRC. Or that might have been the Flame Falcons...
The Imperial Fists can't make the acid spitting gland anymore; only the Ultramarines have all of the original mix, apparently.
EDIT: Apparently the Dark Angels have it pure, too.
On the geneseed front, DA should be most pure, as they are the first, and Lionel showed no signs of...well anything besides being a standard version 1.0 primarch.
Furyou Miko wrote: I'm not putting down the Ultramarines in general. Just Ventris.
Ventris was a bad Ultramarine. He put his life above his duty (Nightbringer incident). He put his personal glory above his duty (Tyranid incident). I gave up after that point.
yeah that's he thing about the Taris Ultra incident, Ventris basicly choose to run off with a buncha death watch, instead of staying with his command. the "codex breach" he was found guilty of was called decleration of duty. he'd have been court martialed for this in ANY modern military. the guy had highly capable subordinates, subordinates who didn't have command responsabilities, he should have sent one of them
When I was a kid, I identified with the imagery of them. My mom and dad moved here from Rome and then had me, so my nonno and nonna's house, and my relatives' and indeed my own, were always full of Roman/Italian imagery, lots of laurel wreaths and Roman warriors and SPQR, etc. etc.
When I first decided to collect marines as a little guy, I was immediately attracted to what appeared to be my people - in space with big effing guns fighting brutal aliens! I knew instantly it was a top contender for my chapter. Then, as I read about the fluff, I started to recognize names and started to love the epic tales of victory headed by Marneus Calgar, and so on. I finally picked them and never regretted it since.
I'll admit though, Black Templars were a very close second. I was attracted to the simple color scheme and dark lore (at the time there wasn't a whole lot focusing on BT though).
My answer is a little more pragmatic than some of the other folks here who seem to genuinely identify with the ideology or status quos of some of these chapters. I don't feel like my reason is as cool. :(
They are not called Ultramarines because they are "Ultra" or "Super" or better in anyway then other space marines.
They are called Ultramarines because.... They are Ultramarine blue.... and that's it.... Woopee. They "greatest" marines are named after the color they wear and suddenly they are the "best' without question?
I don't get it.....
When I was a kid, I identified with the imagery of them. My mom and dad moved here from Rome and then had me, so my nonno and nonna's house, and my relatives' and indeed my own, were always full of Roman/Italian imagery, lots of laurel wreaths and Roman warriors and SPQR, etc. etc.
When I first decided to collect marines as a little guy, I was immediately attracted to what appeared to be my people - in space with big effing guns fighting brutal aliens! I knew instantly it was a top contender for my chapter. Then, as I read about the fluff, I started to recognize names and started to love the epic tales of victory headed by Marneus Calgar, and so on. I finally picked them and never regretted it since.
I'll admit though, Black Templars were a very close second. I was attracted to the simple color scheme and dark lore (at the time there wasn't a whole lot focusing on BT though).
My answer is a little more pragmatic than some of the other folks here who seem to genuinely identify with the ideology or status quos of some of these chapters. I don't feel like my reason is as cool. :(
Also, you made a mistake..
Black Templars are the best
Your sig : "Macragge, Gullyman, Emparah" says everything. It is correctly, Emperor > Imperium > Primarch > chapter.
I belive it should be
Emperor>Primarch>Chapter>Imperium
The imperium is nothing now but a clust feth of things that the Emprah stood against *cough eclisiarchy cough*
Sgt_Smudge wrote: To be fair, he had no idea the Psychic Scourge was corrupy and did it under Inquisitor Drogan's orders, who is an INQUISITOR and should be obeyed by everyone under him, including Captains of the Adeptus Astartes. But you're a Space Wolf, you wouldn't understand Inquisitorial Authority.
There is a difference between understanding and not giving a feth. The inquisition is a terrible group of paranoid murder mongers who have no care for whom they kill, man or heretic/xenos. Feth the Inquisition.
Haven't been keeping up with the entire discussion but just to comment on the OP.
Hobby wise I think the smurfs aren't the most popular because they're the posterboy good guys like you said. I've read 'Warriors of Ultramar' countless times and loved it every read. Ventris and the other marines were solid characters and it showed how they weren't just faceless bad asses hat were by the book. But the stigma is still there of 'Ultramarines are the guys who follow the plan and are all LG. The main problem is that they are at their core a 'flawless' chapter. Save for a slightly zealous chaplain and 1st company vets the chapter as a whole has no tragic flaws which is something every good hero needs.
Crimson Fists adorned the 3E SM codex cover, then the full image was seen with that same crew being wiped out moments later. Ha ha, nice troll there GEE-DUBYAAAA.
Inquisitions doing. At least they saved the planet... and not let it be occupied.
Kantor even carried civillians to safety personally on their trip to New Rynn City. Do you see the Ultrasmarines doing such a doubly heartwarming and doubly awesome act of kindness?
They follow the codex quite strictly. Without spanking anyone who goes out of it in battles. Unlike the Ultramarines. Plus they're a prettier shade of blue.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: Crimson Fists adorned the 3E SM codex cover, then the full image was seen with that same crew being wiped out moments later. Ha ha, nice troll there GEE-DUBYAAAA.
Verstaka wrote: Haven't been keeping up with the entire discussion but just to comment on the OP.
Hobby wise I think the smurfs aren't the most popular because they're the posterboy good guys like you said. I've read 'Warriors of Ultramar' countless times and loved it every read. Ventris and the other marines were solid characters and it showed how they weren't just faceless bad asses hat were by the book. But the stigma is still there of 'Ultramarines are the guys who follow the plan and are all LG. The main problem is that they are at their core a 'flawless' chapter. Save for a slightly zealous chaplain and 1st company vets the chapter as a whole has no tragic flaws which is something every good hero needs.
funny thing is I personally get sick of the "emo flawed emoness" so often in gaming
The Grumpy Eldar wrote: Inquisitions doing. At least they saved the planet... and not let it be occupied.
Kantor even carried civillians to safety personally on their trip to New Rynn City. Do you see the Ultrasmarines doing such a doubly heartwarming and doubly awesome act of kindness?
They follow the codex quite strictly. Without spanking anyone who goes out of it in battles. Unlike the Ultramarines. Plus they're a prettier shade of blue.
PrehistoricUFO wrote: Crimson Fists adorned the 3E SM codex cover, then the full image was seen with that same crew being wiped out moments later. Ha ha, nice troll there GEE-DUBYAAAA.
Engine of War wrote:Of course an often over looked fact.
They are not called Ultramarines because they are "Ultra" or "Super" or better in anyway then other space marines.
They are called Ultramarines because.... They are Ultramarine blue.... and that's it.... Woopee. They "greatest" marines are named after the color they wear and suddenly they are the "best' without question?
I don't get it.....
I'm not so sure that's why they were called Ultramarines, but thats maybe why their colours are Ultramarine Blue. FYI if the the Ultramarines had left people thinking that that meant they were 'super' as you said, then Alpha Legion must.. be.... the best of the best.
Hobby wise I think the smurfs aren't the most popular because they're the posterboy good guys like you said.
Was better in the old days when the Crimson Fists were the posterboys. They get gak done unlike the Ultramarines. *cough* Damnos *cough*
Like getting their monastery blown up.
Good one there, Crimson Fists.
I love Crimson Fists and appreciate their solidish fluff, but it is important to know that I rigidly oppose criticism to the Crimson Fists, but this made me lose it. Have an exalt!
When I was a kid, I identified with the imagery of them. My mom and dad moved here from Rome and then had me, so my nonno and nonna's house, and my relatives' and indeed my own, were always full of Roman/Italian imagery, lots of laurel wreaths and Roman warriors and SPQR, etc. etc.
When I first decided to collect marines as a little guy, I was immediately attracted to what appeared to be my people - in space with big effing guns fighting brutal aliens! I knew instantly it was a top contender for my chapter. Then, as I read about the fluff, I started to recognize names and started to love the epic tales of victory headed by Marneus Calgar, and so on. I finally picked them and never regretted it since.
I'll admit though, Black Templars were a very close second. I was attracted to the simple color scheme and dark lore (at the time there wasn't a whole lot focusing on BT though).
My answer is a little more pragmatic than some of the other folks here who seem to genuinely identify with the ideology or status quos of some of these chapters. I don't feel like my reason is as cool. :(
Also, you made a mistake..
Black Templars are the best
Guys don't go so rough on the ultramarines. The HH has explained that every chapter had it's role to play in the great crusade and after. The ultramarines are the administrators of the imperium. The were given a filing system called the Codex Astartes, which was penned by the greatest secretary of all time, Robert Girlyman. Their most dangerous Astartes can type over 90 words per minute and because of all their dedication to training, they can do this without error. They have been a bastion against the terrors of mis-spelling, bad grammar and empty coffee cups since Calth. They are the dedicated support staff of their entire sector and because of the stability of their gene seed, they have managed to spawn typing pools across all sectors of the imperium. Hell I even have one of their neophytes typing this to you now. Anyway! The ultra-marines are an integral part of 40K (given that its written) and although you other chapters are fierce barbaric warriors like my beloved wolves. You should not make a mess and offend their delicate sensibilities. (and if they ask just say Yes the codex supports this action) Now that we have all that straightened out I feel like I could do with a recaff. " Yes neophyte another recaff will see you well on your way to becoming an ultramarine. Hurry up now!"
Anyone else though that the Ultramarines gene seed might be better improved if their bletchers gland produced milk for recaff instead of Acid ? Maybe one to mention to the Alfather when I see him
Imperious wrote: Guys don't go so rough on the ultramarines. The HH has explained that every chapter had it's role to play in the great crusade and after. The ultramarines are the administrators of the imperium. The were given a filing system called the Codex Astartes, which was penned by the greatest secretary of all time, Robert Girlyman. Their most dangerous Astartes can type over 90 words per minute and because of all their dedication to training, they can do this without error. They have been a bastion against the terrors of mis-spelling, bad grammar and empty coffee cups since Calth. They are the dedicated support staff of their entire sector and because of the stability of their gene seed, they have managed to spawn typing pools across all sectors of the imperium. Hell I even have one of their neophytes typing this to you now. Anyway! The ultra-marines are an integral part of 40K (given that its written) and although you other chapters are fierce barbaric warriors like my beloved wolves. You should not make a mess and offend their delicate sensibilities. (and if they ask just say Yes the codex supports this action) Now that we have all that straightened out I feel like I could do with a recaff. " Yes neophyte another recaff will see you well on your way to becoming an ultramarine. Hurry up now!"
Anyone else though that the Ultramarines gene seed might be better improved if their bletchers gland produced milk for recaff instead of Acid ? Maybe one to mention to the Alfather when I see him
I know you are mocking, but you have a solid point. The strength of the Ultramarines is in logistics. It’s not glorious, it’s not sexy, but it gets the job done when you are conquering the galaxy. People like to rag on the Codex, but the proof is in the pudding. Rather then getting drunk/emo/black ragey afer a fight the Ultras just set up a supply depot, make sure the planet is stable, and get ready for the next job.
One thing I like a a gamer is the lack of flaws. We don’t have any overwhelming strengths, but lack any crippling weakness. Just solid, dependable, marines. For most of the history of the game, all the other chapters were the special snowflakes hogging the limelight. Ultramarines were the average joe, under-appreciated and overlooked. The underdogs. The other chapters were marines++. So it was nice to take the vanilla marines to victory, without all the special rules and perks of the divergent chapters.
Hobby wise I think the smurfs aren't the most popular because they're the posterboy good guys like you said.
Was better in the old days when the Crimson Fists were the posterboys. They get gak done unlike the Ultramarines. *cough* Damnos *cough*
The Ultramarines destroyed the Necrons of Damnos though.
Good news for the Eldar.
After having to glass said world, quite the epic "win" indeed, loosing a whole world that can never be reconquerd and turned to the service of the Imperium
Trondheim wrote: After having to glass said world, quite the epic "win" indeed, loosing a whole world that can never be reconquerd and turned to the service of the Imperium
They didn't have to glass anything, and in fact Damnos was resettled by the Damnosians extracted by the Ultramarines.
All in all a resounding victory for the boys in blue.
I know you are mocking, but you have a solid point. The strength of the Ultramarines is in logistics. It’s not glorious, it’s not sexy, but it gets the job done when you are conquering the galaxy. People like to rag on the Codex, but the proof is in the pudding. Rather then getting drunk/emo/black ragey afer a fight the Ultras just set up a supply depot, make sure the planet is stable, and get ready for the next job.
One thing I like a a gamer is the lack of flaws. We don’t have any overwhelming strengths, but lack any crippling weakness. Just solid, dependable, marines. For most of the history of the game, all the other chapters were the special snowflakes hogging the limelight. Ultramarines were the average joe, under-appreciated and overlooked. The underdogs. The other chapters were marines++. So it was nice to take the vanilla marines to victory, without all the special rules and perks of the divergent chapters.
Alas some gentle mocking is good for all brother. I think Black Library missed a bit of a trick with the Ultra-Marines. They are based on the Roman Empire but with out all the greatness of the Empires great men. Where are your Ceasers? Your Marc Anthonys. These were great men in a great empire. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Ultra-marines but they seem more dogmatic than the Mechanicus. I get Roman but I just wish there was a bit of Sparta in there as well. You are the first among equals of the founding chapters and have had more influence on how the imperium is governed than any chapter.
TBH I think BL authors struggle quite a bit with them. I think everyone respects them but it's kind of hard to love them.The way they are written, if they win a battle you just feel like saying well done Robert Gulliman. Your paint by numbers battle plan worked out well again.
Furyou Miko wrote: Well, I'm not a primary Marines player, but here's why I chose the Marines that I did;
We had a duty. We were the wardens of a tear in space. We were at the forefront of the battle against the evils of Chaos. Our duty held us strongly, gripped us with purpose. So great was the threat our charge posed that two other Chapters were set against it. Together, we were the Maelstrom Wardens, a powerful bulwark against the renegade - and worse.
Ootheca, our home, wasn't the greatest world of the Imperium, but it was ours. Then the tithe ships came to neighbouring Badab. Our dear friends, the Astral Claws, were held ransom by fiends posing as the Adeptus Terra. They protected themselves, and again from more strikes. Then a strike at our hearts- the Fire Hawks attacked our home system without warning or offer of parlay. We had been betrayed by the very Imperium we had sacrificed so much to protect.
More came, and more. We held them at bay, bouyed by the assistance of the other Maelstrom Warders and the Astral Claws' debt-allies, the Executioners. We suffered for our honour, our ancient alliances, but we persevered. We struck. We hunted.
All for nothing. Though it was the Fire Hawks' incompetence that had pulled us into this war, it was the perfidy - the outright duplicity - of our supposed friend Huron that had begat it.
Once, we were the thin green line between the Maelstrom and the Imperium. Now, we are reduced to penitent scraps. We were heroes, now we struggle to earn forgiveness for the crime of holding honour above duty.
We are the Mantis Warriors, and we will not make the same mistake again.
Yeah, Ultramarines, you suck! Why aren't you a bunch of werewolves, or vampires, or frothing madmen, religious nut-jobs, or guys who can't wrap up their dirty little secret even given 10,000 years?
If people hate the Ultramarines because they are too-perfect GW poster boys, than why don't more people hate Grey Knights? Because that's essentially what they are.
It always seemed like GK had a bunch of hatred tossed at them. To the point where they are still arguably in the bottom three of marine armies in terms of the degree by which people dislike them.
AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, Ultramarines, you suck! Why aren't you a bunch of werewolves, or vampires, or frothing madmen, religious nut-jobs, or guys who can't wrap up their dirty little secret even given 10,000 years?
If people hate the Ultramarines because they are too-perfect GW poster boys, than why don't more people hate Grey Knights? Because that's essentially what they are.
It's mainly because of Codex: Ultramarines. People got sick of them.
But have an exalt, very good point. I actually like Ultramarines 3rd Company, the red on blue looks awesome :3
They didn't have to glass anything, and in fact Damnos was resettled by the Damnosians extracted by the Ultramarines.
All in all a resounding victory for the boys in blue.
Pretty sure this isn't true, unless the fluff was retconned again.
They didn't have to glass anything, and in fact Damnos was resettled by the Damnosians extracted by the Ultramarines.
All in all a resounding victory for the boys in blue.
Pretty sure this isn't true, unless the fluff was retconned again.
It's true and there was no retcon. The Ultramarines second company was still repelled from Damnos during the first war, but the Ultramarines would return 26 years later at the request of the High Lords in order to restore the Imperium's flagging morale. There they crushed the Necrons, and the Damnosians who had been evacuated during the first war and their children were given the whole planet to resettle.
Warzone Damnos covers the first and second wars.
For two-thosand years we have tread the blackness of space and the mind bending colours of the warp to hold back the storm encroching upon the Imperium. For two millenia we have battled the endless cultist hordes, the multitude of xenos races, and the heritics that were once our brothers to preserve the domain of are Lord.
And yet through all the blood, the pain, and the sacrifices endured, I still find myself blessed to be called an Astartes.
Not for me will there be a slow decaying death until I am a dulard drueling into my gruel as time has wearied me into old age. Nor shall I been stricken by disease or some hot fever of the flesh. For I am not built to die from such pitiful things.
Death awaits me out amongst the star strung void, but I shall not shrink from it. For it is my fate to be imortal and yet never live it. To die in the endless turmoil of war, another statistic. Another name on a wall. Another brother lost to the cold reaches of the mind.
But that is not what drives us.
Strength and honour guide our hands while we chant our litanies of hate, and sing our battle hyms of retribution.for we are the Panther Claws, and we pay the cost of duty glady.
I know you are mocking, but you have a solid point. The strength of the Ultramarines is in logistics. It’s not glorious, it’s not sexy, but it gets the job done when you are conquering the galaxy. People like to rag on the Codex, but the proof is in the pudding. Rather then getting drunk/emo/black ragey afer a fight the Ultras just set up a supply depot, make sure the planet is stable, and get ready for the next job.
One thing I like a a gamer is the lack of flaws. We don’t have any overwhelming strengths, but lack any crippling weakness. Just solid, dependable, marines. For most of the history of the game, all the other chapters were the special snowflakes hogging the limelight. Ultramarines were the average joe, under-appreciated and overlooked. The underdogs. The other chapters were marines++. So it was nice to take the vanilla marines to victory, without all the special rules and perks of the divergent chapters.
Alas some gentle mocking is good for all brother. I think Black Library missed a bit of a trick with the Ultra-Marines. They are based on the Roman Empire but with out all the greatness of the Empires great men. Where are your Ceasers? Your Marc Anthonys. These were great men in a great empire. There's absolutely nothing wrong with the Ultra-marines but they seem more dogmatic than the Mechanicus. I get Roman but I just wish there was a bit of Sparta in there as well. You are the first among equals of the founding chapters and have had more influence on how the imperium is governed than any chapter.
TBH I think BL authors struggle quite a bit with them. I think everyone respects them but it's kind of hard to love them.The way they are written, if they win a battle you just feel like saying well done Robert Gulliman. Your paint by numbers battle plan worked out well again.
Except the Ultramarines DO have great men.
they have more ICs then just about any other chapter. Maraus Calgar is described as being a great stratagist.
Cato Sicrus is described as being a bit of a glory hound with fall of Damnos suggesting there's some definate inter chapter politics going on for the next chapter master,
there's the whole HOST of other ICs, each with their own characterization, and ALL of whom are very much "great men"
AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, Ultramarines, you suck! Why aren't you a bunch of werewolves, or vampires, or frothing madmen, religious nut-jobs, or guys who can't wrap up their dirty little secret even given 10,000 years?
If people hate the Ultramarines because they are too-perfect GW poster boys, than why don't more people hate Grey Knights? Because that's essentially what they are.
I thought Grey Knights were reviled among the Warhammer 40k player base, both for the fluff AND for their tabletop rules.
I admit I used to like Grey Knights when I was younger. I can't stand them now because they are the Mariest of Mary Sues. I dislike Deus ex Machina, and they are the living embodiment of it in the Warhammer 40k universe.
BrotherOfBone wrote: they're the progenitors to the largest chapter to have ever existed, the Black Templars
urm... you dont know that... its only speculated and to be fair the DA are pretty much still a legion... so... yeah
UM's unfortunatly are just boring... they are in no way perfect neither are DA or IF or BA or any of them. they all have their flaws and they all have they're own way of doing things. thats humanity its the same as saying who has the best country? U.S? broke U.K? serious imagration issue China? Produces near enough 1/3 of the worlds CO2. i could go on but i really cant be bothered.
no chapter is perfect some are far from it others are closer to the mark UM's are mass produced clones of each other rarely do you get a independant minded one and when you do they end up getting set off on a death oath for having a different view. the UM's are a jack of all trades chapter. masters of none.
To be honest, I do find all of this 'my Chapter's better' stuff somewhat odd, but that may just be because I'm working towards having armies for 9 different Chapters/Legions (all the original loyalists). To me, all the Chapters represent different things, none is strictly better than the other.
Ultramarines at first glance appear flawless, until you consider that is their flaw in itself. The rigidity with which they adhere to the codex makes them far less able to adapt than other chapters. Going back to the Heresy, there is the first time they encounter Heretic Marines and the Ultras are unable to grasp the idea that their 'brothers' would turn on them, putting them at a complete disadvantage. In a way, they embody the indoctrination and dogma that has brought the Imperium to its stagnation. They are the perfect representation of what the Imperium has become, but I doubt the Emperor himself would prize their position so highly.
Blood Angels represent the tragedy that is so prevalent in the setting. Arguably, they are one of the most pure and loyal chapters, that have been cursed with such a debilitating flaw that they can never truly fulfil this position. Depending on which version of the Horus-Emperor battle you go with, Sanguinis's sacrifice could appear meaningless, a trend that continues in 40k with the Blood Angel's nobility and honour being ultimately futile in the face of their flaw that can undermine them.
Space Wolves occupy the position as one of the most free and human Chapters, existing outside of the dogma that plagues the rest of the Imperium, but as a result find themselves alienated by those they try and defend. Their poor ties with the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy preclude them from truly fitting in, meaning they are, like the Blood Angels, unable to truly make good their well-meaning intentions without undermining their position as loyal servants of the Imperium. Their attempts to serve the Imperium but not its masters sets them apart from the other Astartes.
The Dark Angels represent the fact that nothing and no one is incorruptible; they have the an essentially pure gene-seed but still lost half the legion to Chaos. They also demonstrate the double-faced nature of the Imperium, claiming to be loyal servants while still hiding secrets that would have them outcast should they be discovered. Much like the Blood Angels, they can never truly fulfil the role the Space Marines are intended to occupy until they have dealt with their own, internal weakness; in this case their fear of the Fallen being discovered.
Salamanders are in a way more moderate Space Wolves. Both refute the codex in part, both have lost Primarchs that have promised to return, both value the lives of their allies as much as their own. However, the Salamanders are not alienated in the same way as they are shown to adapt to the system as required, while the Space Wolves are too set in their ways to do so.
The Iron Hands embody the Space Marine's position as something more than human, constantly 'upgrading' themselves to purge weakness, possibly only to eventually weaken themselves by losing who they were. Their brutal and uncompromising approach to purging the enemy as they would themselves similarly my do more harm that good, given the number of innocents they slaughter as preventive measures.
The Imperial Fists are arguably the closest to a 'pure' Chapter, in ideology if not in genetics, but are perhaps constrained by their beliefs, if less so than the Ultramarines. Similarly, their stubbornness causes them to hold round where it would be better withdrawn from, which increases the toll on the Chapter despite achieving victory.
The Raven Guard and White Scars are difficult to place. The Raven Guard share the trait with the Salamanders and Wolves that they will often prize human life higher than other Chapters, and the autonomous operations of the Chapter may prevent them from deploying en masse, which potentially limits the usefulness of the Chapter given the scale of war in 40k. The Scars seem similar in their slight deviation from the Codex, but there aren't any noticeable flaws. I suppose it could be argued that their specialisation with fast assaults could limit their usefulness in a stagnant or prolonged campaign, but I'm just clutching at straws here.
I think I've rambled long enough here (although I may do this again for a few successors). What I do think this shows is that no Chapter is truly flawless or deviod of character, and neither is any hugely worse than any other. There's plenty of depth to all of them. As a final note, this has made me realise I know very little about the Raven Guard and White Scars, if anyone has any good links about them I'd be interested to see them.
Lion El'Johnson is the biggest badass in the galaxy, surviving on his own in the wilds of Caliban (Which by the way, if not for The Fallen could be another Ultramar) He then prospered there until the emperor gave him charge of the first legion. He was then betrayed by a friend and nearly killed.
When the last fallen takes his last breath we will be free of the taint that has plagued our chapter and take our rightful place as a mighty Space Marine chapter
AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, Ultramarines, you suck! Why aren't you a bunch of werewolves, or vampires, or frothing madmen, religious nut-jobs, or guys who can't wrap up their dirty little secret even given 10,000 years?
If people hate the Ultramarines because they are too-perfect GW poster boys, than why don't more people hate Grey Knights? Because that's essentially what they are.
It's mainly because of Codex: Ultramarines. People got sick of them.
But have an exalt, very good point. I actually like Ultramarines 3rd Company, the red on blue looks awesome :3
So..People hate them because of the 2nd edition codex, that got expanded overtime to include other codex chapters, that even cut special UM units (Tyrannic war veterans, Ultramarine Honour guards), and made them available for all? (Sternguard, Honour guards)
AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, Ultramarines, you suck! Why aren't you a bunch of werewolves, or vampires, or frothing madmen, religious nut-jobs, or guys who can't wrap up their dirty little secret even given 10,000 years?
If people hate the Ultramarines because they are too-perfect GW poster boys, than why don't more people hate Grey Knights? Because that's essentially what they are.
It's mainly because of Codex: Ultramarines. People got sick of them.
But have an exalt, very good point. I actually like Ultramarines 3rd Company, the red on blue looks awesome :3
So..People hate them because of the 2nd edition codex, that got expanded overtime to include other codex chapters, that even cut special UM units (Tyrannic war veterans, Ultramarine Honour guards), and made them available for all? (Sternguard, Honour guards)
And the 5th edition codex. Matt Ward's rambling on about the superiority of the Ultramarines, the infamous 'Spiritual Liege' and how all other Astartes want to be Ultramarines was just painful to read. Easily the worst codex fluffwise in the history of 40k.
AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, Ultramarines, you suck! Why aren't you a bunch of werewolves, or vampires, or frothing madmen, religious nut-jobs, or guys who can't wrap up their dirty little secret even given 10,000 years?
If people hate the Ultramarines because they are too-perfect GW poster boys, than why don't more people hate Grey Knights? Because that's essentially what they are.
It's mainly because of Codex: Ultramarines. People got sick of them.
But have an exalt, very good point. I actually like Ultramarines 3rd Company, the red on blue looks awesome :3
So..People hate them because of the 2nd edition codex, that got expanded overtime to include other codex chapters, that even cut special UM units (Tyrannic war veterans, Ultramarine Honour guards), and made them available for all? (Sternguard, Honour guards)
And the 5th edition codex. Matt Ward's rambling on about the superiority of the Ultramarines, the infamous 'Spiritual Liege' and how all other Astartes want to be Ultramarines was just painful to read. Easily the worst codex fluffwise in the history of 40k.
Yes one bad fluff and we hear the endless Matt Ward hate. It got old fast considering how often Venerated Phil Kelly despite ruining three editions in a row.
AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, Ultramarines, you suck! Why aren't you a bunch of werewolves, or vampires, or frothing madmen, religious nut-jobs, or guys who can't wrap up their dirty little secret even given 10,000 years?
If people hate the Ultramarines because they are too-perfect GW poster boys, than why don't more people hate Grey Knights? Because that's essentially what they are.
It's mainly because of Codex: Ultramarines. People got sick of them.
But have an exalt, very good point. I actually like Ultramarines 3rd Company, the red on blue looks awesome :3
So..People hate them because of the 2nd edition codex, that got expanded overtime to include other codex chapters, that even cut special UM units (Tyrannic war veterans, Ultramarine Honour guards), and made them available for all? (Sternguard, Honour guards)
And the 5th edition codex. Matt Ward's rambling on about the superiority of the Ultramarines, the infamous 'Spiritual Liege' and how all other Astartes want to be Ultramarines was just painful to read. Easily the worst codex fluffwise in the history of 40k.
Which was, if I recall, also in previous editions.
Ward merely continued the trend, and just said the words, instead of wanting to say them, but not doing so.
Paradigm wrote: To be honest, I do find all of this 'my Chapter's better' stuff somewhat odd, but that may just be because I'm working towards having armies for 9 different Chapters/Legions (all the original loyalists). To me, all the Chapters represent different things, none is strictly better than the other.
Ultramarines at first glance appear flawless, until you consider that is their flaw in itself. The rigidity with which they adhere to the codex makes them far less able to adapt than other chapters. Going back to the Heresy, there is the first time they encounter Heretic Marines and the Ultras are unable to grasp the idea that their 'brothers' would turn on them, putting them at a complete disadvantage. In a way, they embody the indoctrination and dogma that has brought the Imperium to its stagnation. They are the perfect representation of what the Imperium has become, but I doubt the Emperor himself would prize their position so highly.
Blood Angels represent the tragedy that is so prevalent in the setting. Arguably, they are one of the most pure and loyal chapters, that have been cursed with such a debilitating flaw that they can never truly fulfil this position. Depending on which version of the Horus-Emperor battle you go with, Sanguinis's sacrifice could appear meaningless, a trend that continues in 40k with the Blood Angel's nobility and honour being ultimately futile in the face of their flaw that can undermine them.
Space Wolves occupy the position as one of the most free and human Chapters, existing outside of the dogma that plagues the rest of the Imperium, but as a result find themselves alienated by those they try and defend. Their poor ties with the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy preclude them from truly fitting in, meaning they are, like the Blood Angels, unable to truly make good their well-meaning intentions without undermining their position as loyal servants of the Imperium. Their attempts to serve the Imperium but not its masters sets them apart from the other Astartes.
The Dark Angels represent the fact that nothing and no one is incorruptible; they have the an essentially pure gene-seed but still lost half the legion to Chaos. They also demonstrate the double-faced nature of the Imperium, claiming to be loyal servants while still hiding secrets that would have them outcast should they be discovered. Much like the Blood Angels, they can never truly fulfil the role the Space Marines are intended to occupy until they have dealt with their own, internal weakness; in this case their fear of the Fallen being discovered.
Salamanders are in a way more moderate Space Wolves. Both refute the codex in part, both have lost Primarchs that have promised to return, both value the lives of their allies as much as their own. However, the Salamanders are not alienated in the same way as they are shown to adapt to the system as required, while the Space Wolves are too set in their ways to do so.
The Iron Hands embody the Space Marine's position as something more than human, constantly 'upgrading' themselves to purge weakness, possibly only to eventually weaken themselves by losing who they were. Their brutal and uncompromising approach to purging the enemy as they would themselves similarly my do more harm that good, given the number of innocents they slaughter as preventive measures.
The Imperial Fists are arguably the closest to a 'pure' Chapter, in ideology if not in genetics, but are perhaps constrained by their beliefs, if less so than the Ultramarines. Similarly, their stubbornness causes them to hold round where it would be better withdrawn from, which increases the toll on the Chapter despite achieving victory.
The Raven Guard and White Scars are difficult to place. The Raven Guard share the trait with the Salamanders and Wolves that they will often prize human life higher than other Chapters, and the autonomous operations of the Chapter may prevent them from deploying en masse, which potentially limits the usefulness of the Chapter given the scale of war in 40k. The Scars seem similar in their slight deviation from the Codex, but there aren't any noticeable flaws. I suppose it could be argued that their specialisation with fast assaults could limit their usefulness in a stagnant or prolonged campaign, but I'm just clutching at straws here.
I think I've rambled long enough here (although I may do this again for a few successors). What I do think this shows is that no Chapter is truly flawless or deviod of character, and neither is any hugely worse than any other. There's plenty of depth to all of them. As a final note, this has made me realise I know very little about the Raven Guard and White Scars, if anyone has any good links about them I'd be interested to see them.
To be honest, I do find all of this 'my Chapter's better' stuff somewhat odd, but that may just be because I'm working towards having armies for 9 different Chapters/Legions (all the original loyalists). To me, all the Chapters represent different things, none is strictly better than the other.
Ultramarines at first glance appear flawless, until you consider that is their flaw in itself. The rigidity with which they adhere to the codex makes them far less able to adapt than other chapters. Going back to the Heresy, there is the first time they encounter Heretic Marines and the Ultras are unable to grasp the idea that their 'brothers' would turn on them, putting them at a complete disadvantage. In a way, they embody the indoctrination and dogma that has brought the Imperium to its stagnation. They are the perfect representation of what the Imperium has become, but I doubt the Emperor himself would prize their position so highly.
Blood Angels represent the tragedy that is so prevalent in the setting. Arguably, they are one of the most pure and loyal chapters, that have been cursed with such a debilitating flaw that they can never truly fulfil this position. Depending on which version of the Horus-Emperor battle you go with, Sanguinis's sacrifice could appear meaningless, a trend that continues in 40k with the Blood Angel's nobility and honour being ultimately futile in the face of their flaw that can undermine them.
Space Wolves occupy the position as one of the most free and human Chapters, existing outside of the dogma that plagues the rest of the Imperium, but as a result find themselves alienated by those they try and defend. Their poor ties with the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy preclude them from truly fitting in, meaning they are, like the Blood Angels, unable to truly make good their well-meaning intentions without undermining their position as loyal servants of the Imperium. Their attempts to serve the Imperium but not its masters sets them apart from the other Astartes.
The Dark Angels represent the fact that nothing and no one is incorruptible; they have the an essentially pure gene-seed but still lost half the legion to Chaos. They also demonstrate the double-faced nature of the Imperium, claiming to be loyal servants while still hiding secrets that would have them outcast should they be discovered. Much like the Blood Angels, they can never truly fulfil the role the Space Marines are intended to occupy until they have dealt with their own, internal weakness; in this case their fear of the Fallen being discovered.
Salamanders are in a way more moderate Space Wolves. Both refute the codex in part, both have lost Primarchs that have promised to return, both value the lives of their allies as much as their own. However, the Salamanders are not alienated in the same way as they are shown to adapt to the system as required, while the Space Wolves are too set in their ways to do so.
The Iron Hands embody the Space Marine's position as something more than human, constantly 'upgrading' themselves to purge weakness, possibly only to eventually weaken themselves by losing who they were. Their brutal and uncompromising approach to purging the enemy as they would themselves similarly my do more harm that good, given the number of innocents they slaughter as preventive measures.
The Imperial Fists are arguably the closest to a 'pure' Chapter, in ideology if not in genetics, but are perhaps constrained by their beliefs, if less so than the Ultramarines. Similarly, their stubbornness causes them to hold round where it would be better withdrawn from, which increases the toll on the Chapter despite achieving victory.
The Raven Guard and White Scars are difficult to place. The Raven Guard share the trait with the Salamanders and Wolves that they will often prize human life higher than other Chapters, and the autonomous operations of the Chapter may prevent them from deploying en masse, which potentially limits the usefulness of the Chapter given the scale of war in 40k. The Scars seem similar in their slight deviation from the Codex, but there aren't any noticeable flaws. I suppose it could be argued that their specialisation with fast assaults could limit their usefulness in a stagnant or prolonged campaign, but I'm just clutching at straws here.
I think I've rambled long enough here (although I may do this again for a few successors). What I do think this shows is that no Chapter is truly flawless or deviod of character, and neither is any hugely worse than any other. There's plenty of depth to all of them. As a final note, this has made me realise I know very little about the Raven Guard and White Scars, if anyone has any good links about them I'd be interested to see them.
Please, sir... have ALL of my exalts!
Thank you. I do think there's every chance I've read waaay to far into some of the fluff here, but I'm glad someone appreciated it.
"From iron cometh strength! From strength cometh will! From will cometh faith! From faith cometh honour! From honour cometh iron!"
Even though they're not even loyal (they always were in my eyes) there is no other space marine faction quite like them. Devotion, coolness, ruthless determination and will as strong as iron, the Iron Warriors would have been the masters and architects of the galaxy if only someone paid attention to them.
Paradigm wrote: To be honest, I do find all of this 'my Chapter's better' stuff somewhat odd, but that may just be because I'm working towards having armies for 9 different Chapters/Legions (all the original loyalists). To me, all the Chapters represent different things, none is strictly better than the other.
TBH I don't think many people have indulged in that. The OP asked why people would want to identify with " lesser chapters." Most people have just responded with why they don't like/get Ultramarines. From a fairly incendiary original posting it hasn't really turned in to chapter fanboys comparing their Epeens.
Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote: "From iron cometh strength! From strength cometh will! From will cometh faith! From faith cometh honour! From honour cometh iron!"
Even though they're not even loyal (they always were in my eyes) there is no other space marine faction quite like them. Devotion, coolness, ruthless determination and will as strong as iron, the Iron Warriors would have been the masters and architects of the galaxy if only someone paid attention to them.
Iron within, Iron without!!!
I cant agree with that. His Ironness had a habit of killing his own men. they barely trusted each other let alone anyone else and they had a huge grudge with the fists for no paticular reason. the word bearers had a reason to hate the UM's after monarchia but the Fists and the Ironmen had a rivalry which "Mr im always angry" couldnt let go. I think the Iron worriors would have ended up being scrubbed from records.
To be fair, I exaggerated a bit in the opening statement, I was really just setting up the synopsis section by saying that all the chapters are in general equally developed, rather than some being too perfect or lacking in depth. I wasn't really referring to this thread at all (which has remained good-natured and interesting), but some of the debates I've seen online have come down to that.
Paradigm wrote: To be honest, I do find all of this 'my Chapter's better' stuff somewhat odd, but that may just be because I'm working towards having armies for 9 different Chapters/Legions (all the original loyalists). To me, all the Chapters represent different things, none is strictly better than the other.
TBH I don't think many people have indulged in that. The OP asked why people would want to identify with " lesser chapters." Most people have just responded with why they don't like/get Ultramarines. From a fairly incendiary original posting it hasn't really turned in to chapter fanboys comparing their Epeens.
BTW Exalt on the chapter synopsis btw
completely agree with both of these comments imperious and also just to get back on track... pretty sure people dont choose who to join. i doubt youd see a 6 year old ultramrian? traveling halfway across the milky way in the hope of becoming a scar. 95% sure it is just if you were born on a recruiting world then guess what... you join that chapter
And this is why the Ultramarine fanboys are the BEST people to keep around.
They are amazing for comedic value and a boost in ego when you realize that you might have your favorites...but at least you are 'that guy'!
To the post. Ultramar, you say, is the beacon of what civilizations should be. History tells us that civilizations that have such feelings of self-greatness don't fair well.
Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote: "From iron cometh strength! From strength cometh will! From will cometh faith! From faith cometh honour! From honour cometh iron!"
Even though they're not even loyal (they always were in my eyes) there is no other space marine faction quite like them. Devotion, coolness, ruthless determination and will as strong as iron, the Iron Warriors would have been the masters and architects of the galaxy if only someone paid attention to them.
Iron within, Iron without!!!
I cant agree with that. His Ironness had a habit of killing his own men. they barely trusted each other let alone anyone else and they had a huge grudge with the fists for no paticular reason. the word bearers had a reason to hate the UM's after monarchia but the Fists and the Ironmen had a rivalry which "Mr im always angry" couldnt let go. I think the Iron worriors would have ended up being scrubbed from records.
What you said is not entirely true
1. He only started killing his own men after the incident with his home planet Olympia and also after Istvaan 5 (only one person is mentioned to be killed- Warsmith Breossus)
2. They could only trust each other (and Horus, since he was the one who was sympathetic to Perturabo after him destroying Olympia). They lost compete trust in Fulgrim and his EC after pretending to be nice to them, then setting them us as bait and Perturabo as the sacrifice to fuel Pilgrim's ascension to daemonhood)
3. He had a grudge with the IF for a very obvious reasons. While the IF got all the glory and fame, the IW had to do the messiest and most menial of any Legion's tasks- garrisoning worlds, laying siege to cities and empires for years, etc). One incident which really stuck in Perturabo's craw was a painter Roget made a picture celebrating a supposed IF victory in which the Iron Warriors did most of the work, and the only representation of them is a lonely IW apothecary tending to the wounded (Known as 'For the Fallen). Perturabo bought the picture and burned it. Rogal Dorn wanted Roget to paint it again, but he wisely refused. The subappretiation, looking down on them and alienation of all the other Legions (except the Thousand Sons and Luna Wolves) made them very bitter, ESPECIALLY towards Dorn's IF. Shame. So they had every reason for this grudge
4. They were scrubbed from records, because they turned traitor. Which they would have never did if the whole Prospero thing didn't happen.
5. Read Angel Exterminatus. It's a very good book!
When referring to C:Ultramarines I was ironically referring to the 5th Edition Codex.
Also the 5th Edition Blood Angels Codex where Matt Ward stated that it was Roboute Guilliman that helped to craft the Blood Angels into the Chapter they are today, and how all Blood Angels look up to the Ultramarines.
That.. That really ticked me off.
liquidjoshi wrote: Hmm, you don't understand why anyone would choose to be from a "lesser" chapter?
The Minotaurs laugh. One of my favourite parts of their fluff is that they pissed off the UMs by mauling one of their successors. Hilarious.
A million times this.
Not only did they nearly wipe out the Interceptors, the honored 2nd founding chapter was subsequently robbed of most of their chapter relics, including their flagship, a relic of the great crusade.
This got them the undying hate of the Ultramarines and were forever banned from the 500 worlds (But really, why would the Minotaurs care?)
UltraTacSgt wrote: How could you not be an Ultramarine? What drove you to seek refuge with a lesser chapter?
Because I like flavour for starters.
And if the Ultras are good at everything, they are the best at nothing (maybe logistics? Though I think they have the IF as strong competition). And some people prefer being best at something. Let's say... bikes ! Let's say... flaming weapons ! Let's say... jump infantry! And so on and so on.
If I follow your reasonning, my question would be : How could you not be a Grey Knight?
Like an Ultra, just better.
I cannot say envy the Ultramarines, they are a proud and mighty chapter. But when it comes down to it, there is only one chapter that truly adheres to the founding of space marines.
The Black Templars
Their history dates back before the heresy, Sigismund a true champion among demigods. Stalwart in their cause the Imperial Fists stead fast defense of Terra cannot be out done. (Along side their fellow brothers who stood side by side with them.)
The Black Templars expand and keep the Imperium of man together. Ruthless and unforgiving they are the tip of the spear when it comes to reclaiming and expanding. They are on a never ending crusade, always fighting, always moving forward and never retreating. They have no need to claim a world as their own, for the Imperium and every world within it is theirs and they fight for it. Having a home world makes a chapter weak and vulnerable. They would be more inclined to chase home to defend it than stay among the stars to bring the fight where it is needed next.
To me the answer is simple, at the biggest event in humanities history, the Siege of Terra, the boys in blue werent there.
The Blood Angels, Fists and White Scars fought alongside untold numbers of guardsmen against the Legions of Horus and their demon allies. Where were the Ultramarines?
When the emperor teleported onto the Vengeful Spirit, Dorn and the blessed Sanguinius went with him, leaving the Khan to command the defenses, where was their brother Guilliman?
So, why am i not a Ultramarine? because when it matterd most, they werent there.
To me the answer is simple, at the biggest event in humanities history, the Siege of Terra, the boys in blue werent there.
The Blood Angels, Fists and White Scars fought alongside untold numbers of guardsmen against the Legions of Horus and their demon allies. Where were the Ultramarines?
When the emperor teleported onto the Vengeful Spirit, Dorn and the blessed Sanguinius went with him, leaving the Khan to command the defenses, where was their brother Guilliman?
So, why am i not a Ultramarine? because when it matterd most, they werent there.
If I know my heresy, I think they were having the daylights beaten out of them on Calth. But the reason they were is because Horus knew that if the Ultramarines reached Terra, before or during the Siege, it would be game-over for him. Hence, he diverted a huge portion of his forces (Word Bearers being the 2nd largest Legion, I think) to taking them out. Horus recognised the Ultramarines could turn the tide of the war, and as such aimed to take them out in a single blow.
You could also argue that, in the days after the Heresy, it was the strength of the Legions not mauled at Terra that held the Imperium together. What happened between Horus and the Emperor almost had to happen (the ship itself ensured they fought 1v1), so ultimately, Gulliman joining the Emperor would have been futile and a waste of effort, as the Emperor would still have become separated. And had he died on the Spirit, there would be no re-written Codex, and subsequent formation of Chapters. Imagine what the Badab War would have been like if Huron's forces were actually legion-size.
Whatever the faults of the Ultramarines, and there are many, I'm not sure it's their fault they weren't at Terra.
To me the answer is simple, at the biggest event in humanities history, the Siege of Terra, the boys in blue werent there.
The Blood Angels, Fists and White Scars fought alongside untold numbers of guardsmen against the Legions of Horus and their demon allies. Where were the Ultramarines?
When the emperor teleported onto the Vengeful Spirit, Dorn and the blessed Sanguinius went with him, leaving the Khan to command the defenses, where was their brother Guilliman?
So, why am i not a Ultramarine? because when it matterd most, they werent there.
If I know my heresy, I think they were having the daylights beaten out of them on Calth. But the reason they were is because Horus knew that if the Ultramarines reached Terra, before or during the Siege, it would be game-over for him. Hence, he diverted a huge portion of his forces (Word Bearers being the 2nd largest Legion, I think) to taking them out. Horus recognised the Ultramarines could turn the tide of the war, and as such aimed to take them out in a single blow.
You could also argue that, in the days after the Heresy, it was the strength of the Legions not mauled at Terra that held the Imperium together. What happened between Horus and the Emperor almost had to happen (the ship itself ensured they fought 1v1), so ultimately, Gulliman joining the Emperor would have been futile and a waste of effort, as the Emperor would still have become separated. And had he died on the Spirit, there would be no re-written Codex, and subsequent formation of Chapters. Imagine what the Badab War would have been like if Huron's forces were actually legion-size.
Whatever the faults of the Ultramarines, and there are many, I'm not sure it's their fault they weren't at Terra.
Were working in shaky ground here since theyve retconned this stuff numberous times.
According to the latest retcon, as things stand according to Black Library, after A Unrememberd Empire, Guilliman is on Macragge with the Lion and Sanguinius...Somehow we know tthat Sanguinius and his legion get to Terra, while Guilliman and the UM dont. i guess well find out the reasons why. Whether its because of a good reason or because he just wanted to protect his "Imperium Secundus" i guess well find out.
Either way, the Ultras werent at the seige of terra, and thats why i dont play em.
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What happened between Horus and the Emperor almost had to happen (the ship itself ensured they fought 1v1), so ultimately, Gulliman joining the Emperor would have been futile and a waste of effort, as the Emperor would still have become separated. And had he died on the Spirit, there would be no re-written Codex, and subsequent formation of Chapters. Imagine what the Badab War would have been like if Huron's forces were actually legion-size.
Again thanks to retconning we could both be right, but as i remember reading about it, The Emperor and his 2 sons teleoported onto the Spirit as a last ditch effort to try and decapitate the enemy in a single swoop by killing Horus, becuase the loyalist defenses were falling. Unbenounced to them (and why Horus lowered his shields and let them in) the Lion and Guilliman were finallly on their way to break the seige.
I would argue that if the UM were at Terra for the battle, being the largest legion, maybe the Emp wouldnt have had to teleport onto the Vengeful Spirit.
but at this point were arguing about hypotheticalls and are getting off on a tangent.
Me personally, i play Fists (Crimson because i cant paint yellow), i dont play Ultramarines because they werent at the seminal event in Human history.
Ah, I don't really know about the 'Unremembered Empire' stuff, I thought Calth and Terra happened within a year or so of each other, so the Ultras were still nursing their wounds so to speak.
I agree all these retcons get confusing. I mean, there's a different version in every codex involving SM.
By the way if you're interested in what may or may not have happened with different versions of the battle at Terra, check out this thread from a while back: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/558417.page#6161734 It gets a bit complicated, but it's well worth a read if you've got time.
Farseer Faenyin wrote: And this is why the Ultramarine fanboys are the BEST people to keep around.
They are amazing for comedic value and a boost in ego when you realize that you might have your favorites...but at least you are 'that guy'!
To the post. Ultramar, you say, is the beacon of what civilizations should be. History tells us that civilizations that have such feelings of self-greatness don't fair well.
Is it wrong that I find that funny, coming from an American? :p
To be fair, I don't think there's been a single empire or large civilization that hasn't had feelings of self greatness. And most of those have fallen, one way or another. But that doesn't mean that their achievements weren't great. Take the Romans for example (rather apt, given that we're talking about the Ultramarines). Yes their empire collapsed under barbarian invaders but they did manage a good few centuries of peace and relative stability- during which they made great cultural and technological advancements. All empires will be cast down eventually but that doesn't mean they weren't great while they lasted.
Back to the topic at hand.
I'm an Ultramarine player, collector, bit of a fanboy, and I think I like them for the fact that they are, pretty much, just the good guys.
For that matter, I far prefer the Christopher Reeve Superman to the new, angst ridden modern one. And (whisper it) Batman, for that matter. Sometimes it's just nice to have a hero, with out all the dark secrets and daddy issues.
Also, I like the Blue more than all the other colours!
My love for the Ultramarines is firmly rooted in the fact that I have bought nothing but miniatures from GW since 4th edition. So things like the 5th edition codex do not exist in my headcanon.
AegisGrimm wrote: My love for the Ultramarines is firmly rooted in the fact that I have bought nothing but miniatures from GW since 4th edition. So things like the 5th edition codex do not exist in my headcanon.
I made my own Chapter, because I am a creative person and I didn't want to just use someone else's army when I could just as easily make my own. Also, the Ultras didn't have a 'hook' that appealed to me. If GW had really played up their Roman and Greek themes beyond their naming conventions and adding a helmet crest to a single model, I might have gone with them (well, I would've made a Successor Chapter). As it was, they were generically generic. Their models looked just like all the other non-Space Wolf models, and their background fluff had nothing for me to sink my teeth into. Now, if they had been modeled to look more Roman than they were, their lack of interesting fluff might have been mitigated by cool looking models. As it was, they were victims of having both generic models and generic fluff.
That's not to say that I dislike them or have any hatred for them, I just find them to be kind of 'meh'. I started 40K back when the Ultras weren't the poster children for anything apart from their own codex. Sure, their book said they were the best, but everybody's book said that about their own army. The Space Wolf codex was all "The Sons of Russ are the most awesome Space Marines and don't you forget it", the Blood Angels/Dark Angels codex (one book, two Chapters) was all "First Founding Chapters with the word 'angel' in their name are better than any other Chapter", and the Ork codex said "Orks are better than Space Marines because WAAAAAAAAGH!"
It's only been more recently when Matt Ward (yes, I know he only spells it with one 'T'... I'm spelling it wrong on purpose) was able to make more than one codex say that the Ultras were the best that the fan base really turned on the Ultras.
While the Ultramarines were busy forming a second empire, the Imperial Fists stood between Terra and the full might of chaos. The Imperial Fists also saved what was left of the loyalist Mechanicum. When Roboute returned after the battle was won, Dorn gave up leadership and went on to try and end the threat to the Imperium completely. While the Ultramarines are the paragons of the virtues of what it means to be an Astartes, the Fists are its embodiment in the flesh.
As the Ultramarines are so fond of saying practical (Fists) over theoretical (Ultramarines).
dreadnova wrote: While the Ultramarines were busy forming a second empire, the Imperial Fists stood between Terra and the full might of chaos. The Imperial Fists also saved what was left of the loyalist Mechanicum. When Roboute returned after the battle was won, Dorn gave up leadership and went on to try and end the threat to the Imperium completely. While the Ultramarines are the paragons of the virtues of what it means to be an Astartes, the Fists are its embodiment in the flesh.
As the Ultramarines are so fond of saying practical (Fists) over theoretical (Ultramarines).
Saying they 'saved the loyalist mechanicum' is a bit... generous.
They saved the remaining supplies of bolters and power armour, and a few Mechanicum adepts managed to stow away. They pretty much left Mars to burn.
dreadnova wrote: While the Ultramarines were busy forming a second empire, the Imperial Fists stood between Terra and the full might of chaos. The Imperial Fists also saved what was left of the loyalist Mechanicum. When Roboute returned after the battle was won, Dorn gave up leadership and went on to try and end the threat to the Imperium completely. While the Ultramarines are the paragons of the virtues of what it means to be an Astartes, the Fists are its embodiment in the flesh.
As the Ultramarines are so fond of saying practical (Fists) over theoretical (Ultramarines).
Saying they 'saved the loyalist mechanicum' is a bit... generous.
They saved the remaining supplies of bolters and power armour, and a few Mechanicum adepts managed to stow away. They pretty much left Mars to burn.
They tried and failed. All they literally did was land, hold out for as long as they could while they secured armaments and then fled, destroying whatever was left. If they saved anyone it was not their intention.
"We have been wounded sorely. Yet still we stand, with fire in our eyes and valour in our hearts. Let them think us beaten. We shall teach them otherwise."
Here's my two cents. Well, I chose BT. Mainly because of fluff. I mean, come on: For one BT aren't religously zealots but loyal zealots (2nd founding do don't believe Emperor as a God), they are the biggest chapter out there (rumored at least a legion if not two), second maybe to SW (SW companies are each a chapter in strength). Also never ending crusade and causing the whole killing of a ton of psykers by "accident" in the Howling? pretty sick. They also have had zero marines fall to chaos. Besides that the fact they have no home world makes them better (no weakness of worrying about it or stationing troops to it). The fact that they do what they want, BT don't contact Terra for permission to assault worlds or anything like others do, they just do it. Also BT don't listen to the Inquisition. Not in our chapter so nope. Besides, why follow the Codex? BT aren't a Codex Astartes chapter (though we are lumped into 6th with them) fluff wise. I don't know about you, but I don't want to be a vanilla Mary Sue following Rowboat Girlyman and believing I'm the best and all others are lesser because they aren't me. Thats just me, and honestly my second favorite chapter are the SW. Next follows IF, WS, Iron Snakes, CF and then Iron Hands. Rest follow after wards, and its all based on my appeal to fluff.
This is the second time I've seen this posted here. I have never heard that SW great companies are Chapter sized in official fluff. I have heard that they are more than 100 marines (usually around 120-140 or so) but I have only heard the idea that SW companies are 1000 marines put forward on Dakka. I've been in this hobby since 2nd Ed, and if this is true, it is news to me.
Ventris is a dick I'm no fan of the ultra marines but the threads original post makes for a convincing argument. I'm not sure I would like being taken out of relative comfort though and thrown into a nightmare world. It may be better to have known nothing else but fighting and death all your life. Bu see were your coming from.
This is the second time I've seen this posted here. I have never heard that SW great companies are Chapter sized in official fluff. I have heard that they are more than 100 marines (usually around 120-140 or so) but I have only heard the idea that SW companies are 1000 marines put forward on Dakka. I've been in this hobby since 2nd Ed, and if this is true, it is news to me.
The canny Primach pulled a sleight of hand on his brother Guilliman, ostensibly agreeing to separate the Space Wolves Legion into thirteen independant Great Companies, each roughly a Chapter in strength http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Wolves
This is where I got this. Also, I recommend you read Battle of the Fang. They leave one company at the Fang and the entire thousand sons come by after being rallied and hold them off. They had the PDF there, but in the book the one company was pretty much chapter in strength, at least 500 marines a company. This is just what I've read/ heard (my brother is a SW player and I get a lot of fluff from him. He also shows me the places he gets it so I know he isn't just spewing it.) I don't think they are each 1000, but pretty darn close.
This is the second time I've seen this posted here. I have never heard that SW great companies are Chapter sized in official fluff. I have heard that they are more than 100 marines (usually around 120-140 or so) but I have only heard the idea that SW companies are 1000 marines put forward on Dakka. I've been in this hobby since 2nd Ed, and if this is true, it is news to me.
The canny Primach pulled a sleight of hand on his brother Guilliman, ostensibly agreeing to separate the Space Wolves Legion into thirteen independant Great Companies, each roughly a Chapter in strength http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Space_Wolves
This is where I got this. Also, I recommend you read Battle of the Fang. They leave one company at the Fang and the entire thousand sons come by after being rallied and hold them off. They had the PDF there, but in the book the one company was pretty much chapter in strength, at least 500 marines a company. This is just what I've read/ heard (my brother is a SW player and I get a lot of fluff from him. He also shows me the places he gets it so I know he isn't just spewing it.) I don't think they are each 1000, but pretty darn close.
The wikia has been pretty wrong lately, considering that listed in the great companies under Ragnar Blackmanes is second to Logans, and it's amount is "Boasting almost two hundred battle-brothers." Page 17: SW codex.
1000 each is giving it FAR too much credit considering that the second biggest is not even two hundred.
To put mildly, the biggest Chapter of all is Dark Angels, with how them and their successors are setup.
I don't know much about DA chapter or their succesors and how they are set up, but I would argue more for BT being larger/ second to them then. I've been seeing conflict with the wikia and lexicanum lately on things. if they say that the second largest is 200, and the company in Battle of the Fang was at east 500 from what I read, somethings up with fluff dis agreements (nothing new really)
Black Tauplar wrote: I don't know much about DA chapter or their succesors and how they are set up, but I would argue more for BT being larger/ second to them then. I've been seeing conflict with the wikia and lexicanum lately on things. if they say that the second largest is 200, and the company in Battle of the Fang was at east 500 from what I read, somethings up with fluff dis agreements (nothing new really)
There is no fluff disagreement here at all. The Battle of the Fang took place 8000 years before the current setting, obviously a lot has changed since then.
While the DA are setup into chapters of around 1000 marines, all of their Grand Masters answer directly to Azreal, so he essentially commands a legion. BT, I think, are the largest single body of loyalist marines though.
Oh. Well I didn't understand it took place 8000 years ago. I failed to realize this, my bad. So SW would be roughly two, maybe three chapters in strength total instead of a legion.
I do not have any of the most recent fluff, but I have always seen most people discuss as if BT and SW had Chapters that were about 50-60% larger than the codex "1000 marines". The two just differ in organization.
AegisGrimm wrote: I do not have any of the most recent fluff, but I have always seen most people discuss as if BT and SW had Chapters that were about 50-60% larger than the codex "1000 marines". The two just differ in organization.
Well we don't have hard numbers for SW, but as mentioned they have 13 companies.
The second largest is close to 200 (Ragnars company) and smaller then logan's.
So assuming it only gets smaller around then, they should be about either two to three chapters, or at worst around 1.5 chapters.
Technically they only have 12 real companies. The 13th is wolfs in the warp which really only appeared in the 13th crusade.
Based upon the highest possible approximate values, 2490 marines (300, 200, and the rest 199). So x2.5 almost. Keep in mind, this value is assuming that the largest is 300 rather than 250 or something. The others probably aren't 199, instead likely varying from 115-180 or so.
StarTrotter wrote: Technically they only have 12 real companies. The 13th is wolfs in the warp which really only appeared in the 13th crusade.
Based upon the highest possible approximate values, 2490 marines (300, 200, and the rest 199). So x2.5 almost. Keep in mind, this value is assuming that the largest is 300 rather than 250 or something. The others probably aren't 199, instead likely varying from 115-180 or so.
The thing is the second largest isn't 200 exactly, it says it's 'close' to it.
Also it's likely varied from 30-180 yeah.
But yeah, to be an Ultramarine is to become dehumanized in most cases, to sacrifice yourself to defend the Imperium, though if I had to pick Ultramar is certainly a better society to live in compared to most of the Imperium, even if it is basically Rome.
Ultramar is by far (one of) the best regions to be from, if I had a choice. Most other Chapters recruit from hell-holes, probably because those sort of places breed the kinds of warriors that it takes to go through the transition.
To be honest I wouldn't quite say that Ultramar being one of the best regions is much a point to be an Ultramarine. Whilst I don't really like Ultramarines, I actually don't really mind them. I kinda wish they played up their roman theming a bit more but I'm quite fine with them as is. Hey, if they can rule over several systems, keep order, and have it maintained as one of the best places to live in the galaxy, why the heck wouldn't they get some credit
No, but it's *possible* that a stable society like Ultramar might breed more "stable" marines than some of the Chapters that recruit from gangs that survive on deathworlds, one who possibly require psycho-conditioning just to make them capable of behaving and/or accepting modern Imperial society and technology.
Not that it's unique to just the Ultramar region. I suspect lots of codex chapters benefit from stable regions of recruitment.
It depends on how they prefer their recruitment. Some like death worlds for 'harder' marines, well trained worlds for better trained ones, and stable ones so you don't end up like the Marines Malevolent.
The universe needs the goody-goody ultramarines, I think. They're the poster boys of the Space marines and remind me of the 'all rounder' characters in video games. Like Ryu, or something. I certainly don't hate them like I do Space Wolves or Grey Knights.
AegisGrimm wrote: I do not have any of the most recent fluff, but I have always seen most people discuss as if BT and SW had Chapters that were about 50-60% larger than the codex "1000 marines". The two just differ in organization.
BT are far larger than 50-60%. There are about 6 or 7 Crusades of around 500-1000 marines going on at most points, and then you also have to consider that almost every Initiate has a Neophyte (not sure if they're counted in terms of marines but still). So call it about 3000 marines at the least... I'd say that's a bit more than 50-60%.
AegisGrimm wrote: I do not have any of the most recent fluff, but I have always seen most people discuss as if BT and SW had Chapters that were about 50-60% larger than the codex "1000 marines". The two just differ in organization.
BT are far larger than 50-60%. There are about 6 or 7 Crusades of around 500-1000 marines going on at most points, and then you also have to consider that almost every Initiate has a Neophyte (not sure if they're counted in terms of marines but still). So call it about 3000 marines at the least... I'd say that's a bit more than 50-60%.
Yeah, Black Templar and DA would be considered the largest amongst all the marines. Black Templar had a suspected 6000 and more (Yes the neophytes are counted as they immediately join the initiates group)
I never knew that the successors of the DA reported directly to DA chapter master. Is that only for the purpose of capturing the fallen or does he exercise direct control. Any DA players know?
Imperious wrote: I never knew that the successors of the DA reported directly to DA chapter master. Is that only for the purpose of capturing the fallen or does he exercise direct control. Any DA players know?
Paradigm wrote: To be honest, I do find all of this 'my Chapter's better' stuff somewhat odd, but that may just be because I'm working towards having armies for 9 different Chapters/Legions (all the original loyalists). To me, all the Chapters represent different things, none is strictly better than the other.
Ultramarines at first glance appear flawless, until you consider that is their flaw in itself. The rigidity with which they adhere to the codex makes them far less able to adapt than other chapters. Going back to the Heresy, there is the first time they encounter Heretic Marines and the Ultras are unable to grasp the idea that their 'brothers' would turn on them, putting them at a complete disadvantage. In a way, they embody the indoctrination and dogma that has brought the Imperium to its stagnation. They are the perfect representation of what the Imperium has become, but I doubt the Emperor himself would prize their position so highly.
Blood Angels represent the tragedy that is so prevalent in the setting. Arguably, they are one of the most pure and loyal chapters, that have been cursed with such a debilitating flaw that they can never truly fulfil this position. Depending on which version of the Horus-Emperor battle you go with, Sanguinis's sacrifice could appear meaningless, a trend that continues in 40k with the Blood Angel's nobility and honour being ultimately futile in the face of their flaw that can undermine them.
Space Wolves occupy the position as one of the most free and human Chapters, existing outside of the dogma that plagues the rest of the Imperium, but as a result find themselves alienated by those they try and defend. Their poor ties with the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy preclude them from truly fitting in, meaning they are, like the Blood Angels, unable to truly make good their well-meaning intentions without undermining their position as loyal servants of the Imperium. Their attempts to serve the Imperium but not its masters sets them apart from the other Astartes.
The Dark Angels represent the fact that nothing and no one is incorruptible; they have the an essentially pure gene-seed but still lost half the legion to Chaos. They also demonstrate the double-faced nature of the Imperium, claiming to be loyal servants while still hiding secrets that would have them outcast should they be discovered. Much like the Blood Angels, they can never truly fulfil the role the Space Marines are intended to occupy until they have dealt with their own, internal weakness; in this case their fear of the Fallen being discovered.
Salamanders are in a way more moderate Space Wolves. Both refute the codex in part, both have lost Primarchs that have promised to return, both value the lives of their allies as much as their own. However, the Salamanders are not alienated in the same way as they are shown to adapt to the system as required, while the Space Wolves are too set in their ways to do so.
The Iron Hands embody the Space Marine's position as something more than human, constantly 'upgrading' themselves to purge weakness, possibly only to eventually weaken themselves by losing who they were. Their brutal and uncompromising approach to purging the enemy as they would themselves similarly my do more harm that good, given the number of innocents they slaughter as preventive measures.
The Imperial Fists are arguably the closest to a 'pure' Chapter, in ideology if not in genetics, but are perhaps constrained by their beliefs, if less so than the Ultramarines. Similarly, their stubbornness causes them to hold round where it would be better withdrawn from, which increases the toll on the Chapter despite achieving victory.
The Raven Guard and White Scars are difficult to place. The Raven Guard share the trait with the Salamanders and Wolves that they will often prize human life higher than other Chapters, and the autonomous operations of the Chapter may prevent them from deploying en masse, which potentially limits the usefulness of the Chapter given the scale of war in 40k. The Scars seem similar in their slight deviation from the Codex, but there aren't any noticeable flaws. I suppose it could be argued that their specialisation with fast assaults could limit their usefulness in a stagnant or prolonged campaign, but I'm just clutching at straws here.
I think I've rambled long enough here (although I may do this again for a few successors). What I do think this shows is that no Chapter is truly flawless or deviod of character, and neither is any hugely worse than any other. There's plenty of depth to all of them. As a final note, this has made me realise I know very little about the Raven Guard and White Scars, if anyone has any good links about them I'd be interested to see them.
This is exactly the type of post that I keep visiting the forums for . It also reflects quite exactly why I chose and like the Ultras despite their numerous haters. Attempting to be flawless paragons of courage and faith in a hopeless universe but failing because of their arrogant and rigid mindset. Kickass colour scheme helps, too
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