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AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, Ultramarines, you suck! Why aren't you a bunch of werewolves, or vampires, or frothing madmen, religious nut-jobs, or guys who can't wrap up their dirty little secret even given 10,000 years?
If people hate the Ultramarines because they are too-perfect GW poster boys, than why don't more people hate Grey Knights? Because that's essentially what they are.
I thought Grey Knights were reviled among the Warhammer 40k player base, both for the fluff AND for their tabletop rules.
I admit I used to like Grey Knights when I was younger. I can't stand them now because they are the Mariest of Mary Sues. I dislike Deus ex Machina, and they are the living embodiment of it in the Warhammer 40k universe.
BrotherOfBone wrote: they're the progenitors to the largest chapter to have ever existed, the Black Templars
urm... you dont know that... its only speculated and to be fair the DA are pretty much still a legion... so... yeah
UM's unfortunatly are just boring... they are in no way perfect neither are DA or IF or BA or any of them. they all have their flaws and they all have they're own way of doing things. thats humanity its the same as saying who has the best country? U.S? broke U.K? serious imagration issue China? Produces near enough 1/3 of the worlds CO2. i could go on but i really cant be bothered.
no chapter is perfect some are far from it others are closer to the mark UM's are mass produced clones of each other rarely do you get a independant minded one and when you do they end up getting set off on a death oath for having a different view. the UM's are a jack of all trades chapter. masters of none.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/18 13:42:58
To be honest, I do find all of this 'my Chapter's better' stuff somewhat odd, but that may just be because I'm working towards having armies for 9 different Chapters/Legions (all the original loyalists). To me, all the Chapters represent different things, none is strictly better than the other.
Ultramarines at first glance appear flawless, until you consider that is their flaw in itself. The rigidity with which they adhere to the codex makes them far less able to adapt than other chapters. Going back to the Heresy, there is the first time they encounter Heretic Marines and the Ultras are unable to grasp the idea that their 'brothers' would turn on them, putting them at a complete disadvantage. In a way, they embody the indoctrination and dogma that has brought the Imperium to its stagnation. They are the perfect representation of what the Imperium has become, but I doubt the Emperor himself would prize their position so highly.
Blood Angels represent the tragedy that is so prevalent in the setting. Arguably, they are one of the most pure and loyal chapters, that have been cursed with such a debilitating flaw that they can never truly fulfil this position. Depending on which version of the Horus-Emperor battle you go with, Sanguinis's sacrifice could appear meaningless, a trend that continues in 40k with the Blood Angel's nobility and honour being ultimately futile in the face of their flaw that can undermine them.
Space Wolves occupy the position as one of the most free and human Chapters, existing outside of the dogma that plagues the rest of the Imperium, but as a result find themselves alienated by those they try and defend. Their poor ties with the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy preclude them from truly fitting in, meaning they are, like the Blood Angels, unable to truly make good their well-meaning intentions without undermining their position as loyal servants of the Imperium. Their attempts to serve the Imperium but not its masters sets them apart from the other Astartes.
The Dark Angels represent the fact that nothing and no one is incorruptible; they have the an essentially pure gene-seed but still lost half the legion to Chaos. They also demonstrate the double-faced nature of the Imperium, claiming to be loyal servants while still hiding secrets that would have them outcast should they be discovered. Much like the Blood Angels, they can never truly fulfil the role the Space Marines are intended to occupy until they have dealt with their own, internal weakness; in this case their fear of the Fallen being discovered.
Salamanders are in a way more moderate Space Wolves. Both refute the codex in part, both have lost Primarchs that have promised to return, both value the lives of their allies as much as their own. However, the Salamanders are not alienated in the same way as they are shown to adapt to the system as required, while the Space Wolves are too set in their ways to do so.
The Iron Hands embody the Space Marine's position as something more than human, constantly 'upgrading' themselves to purge weakness, possibly only to eventually weaken themselves by losing who they were. Their brutal and uncompromising approach to purging the enemy as they would themselves similarly my do more harm that good, given the number of innocents they slaughter as preventive measures.
The Imperial Fists are arguably the closest to a 'pure' Chapter, in ideology if not in genetics, but are perhaps constrained by their beliefs, if less so than the Ultramarines. Similarly, their stubbornness causes them to hold round where it would be better withdrawn from, which increases the toll on the Chapter despite achieving victory.
The Raven Guard and White Scars are difficult to place. The Raven Guard share the trait with the Salamanders and Wolves that they will often prize human life higher than other Chapters, and the autonomous operations of the Chapter may prevent them from deploying en masse, which potentially limits the usefulness of the Chapter given the scale of war in 40k. The Scars seem similar in their slight deviation from the Codex, but there aren't any noticeable flaws. I suppose it could be argued that their specialisation with fast assaults could limit their usefulness in a stagnant or prolonged campaign, but I'm just clutching at straws here.
I think I've rambled long enough here (although I may do this again for a few successors). What I do think this shows is that no Chapter is truly flawless or deviod of character, and neither is any hugely worse than any other. There's plenty of depth to all of them. As a final note, this has made me realise I know very little about the Raven Guard and White Scars, if anyone has any good links about them I'd be interested to see them.
Lion El'Johnson is the biggest badass in the galaxy, surviving on his own in the wilds of Caliban (Which by the way, if not for The Fallen could be another Ultramar) He then prospered there until the emperor gave him charge of the first legion. He was then betrayed by a friend and nearly killed.
When the last fallen takes his last breath we will be free of the taint that has plagued our chapter and take our rightful place as a mighty Space Marine chapter
AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, Ultramarines, you suck! Why aren't you a bunch of werewolves, or vampires, or frothing madmen, religious nut-jobs, or guys who can't wrap up their dirty little secret even given 10,000 years?
If people hate the Ultramarines because they are too-perfect GW poster boys, than why don't more people hate Grey Knights? Because that's essentially what they are.
It's mainly because of Codex: Ultramarines. People got sick of them.
But have an exalt, very good point. I actually like Ultramarines 3rd Company, the red on blue looks awesome :3
So..People hate them because of the 2nd edition codex, that got expanded overtime to include other codex chapters, that even cut special UM units (Tyrannic war veterans, Ultramarine Honour guards), and made them available for all? (Sternguard, Honour guards)
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/02/18 15:27:57
AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, Ultramarines, you suck! Why aren't you a bunch of werewolves, or vampires, or frothing madmen, religious nut-jobs, or guys who can't wrap up their dirty little secret even given 10,000 years?
If people hate the Ultramarines because they are too-perfect GW poster boys, than why don't more people hate Grey Knights? Because that's essentially what they are.
It's mainly because of Codex: Ultramarines. People got sick of them.
But have an exalt, very good point. I actually like Ultramarines 3rd Company, the red on blue looks awesome :3
So..People hate them because of the 2nd edition codex, that got expanded overtime to include other codex chapters, that even cut special UM units (Tyrannic war veterans, Ultramarine Honour guards), and made them available for all? (Sternguard, Honour guards)
And the 5th edition codex. Matt Ward's rambling on about the superiority of the Ultramarines, the infamous 'Spiritual Liege' and how all other Astartes want to be Ultramarines was just painful to read. Easily the worst codex fluffwise in the history of 40k.
AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, Ultramarines, you suck! Why aren't you a bunch of werewolves, or vampires, or frothing madmen, religious nut-jobs, or guys who can't wrap up their dirty little secret even given 10,000 years?
If people hate the Ultramarines because they are too-perfect GW poster boys, than why don't more people hate Grey Knights? Because that's essentially what they are.
It's mainly because of Codex: Ultramarines. People got sick of them.
But have an exalt, very good point. I actually like Ultramarines 3rd Company, the red on blue looks awesome :3
So..People hate them because of the 2nd edition codex, that got expanded overtime to include other codex chapters, that even cut special UM units (Tyrannic war veterans, Ultramarine Honour guards), and made them available for all? (Sternguard, Honour guards)
And the 5th edition codex. Matt Ward's rambling on about the superiority of the Ultramarines, the infamous 'Spiritual Liege' and how all other Astartes want to be Ultramarines was just painful to read. Easily the worst codex fluffwise in the history of 40k.
Yes one bad fluff and we hear the endless Matt Ward hate. It got old fast considering how often Venerated Phil Kelly despite ruining three editions in a row.
AegisGrimm wrote: Yeah, Ultramarines, you suck! Why aren't you a bunch of werewolves, or vampires, or frothing madmen, religious nut-jobs, or guys who can't wrap up their dirty little secret even given 10,000 years?
If people hate the Ultramarines because they are too-perfect GW poster boys, than why don't more people hate Grey Knights? Because that's essentially what they are.
It's mainly because of Codex: Ultramarines. People got sick of them.
But have an exalt, very good point. I actually like Ultramarines 3rd Company, the red on blue looks awesome :3
So..People hate them because of the 2nd edition codex, that got expanded overtime to include other codex chapters, that even cut special UM units (Tyrannic war veterans, Ultramarine Honour guards), and made them available for all? (Sternguard, Honour guards)
And the 5th edition codex. Matt Ward's rambling on about the superiority of the Ultramarines, the infamous 'Spiritual Liege' and how all other Astartes want to be Ultramarines was just painful to read. Easily the worst codex fluffwise in the history of 40k.
Which was, if I recall, also in previous editions.
Ward merely continued the trend, and just said the words, instead of wanting to say them, but not doing so.
Paradigm wrote: To be honest, I do find all of this 'my Chapter's better' stuff somewhat odd, but that may just be because I'm working towards having armies for 9 different Chapters/Legions (all the original loyalists). To me, all the Chapters represent different things, none is strictly better than the other.
Ultramarines at first glance appear flawless, until you consider that is their flaw in itself. The rigidity with which they adhere to the codex makes them far less able to adapt than other chapters. Going back to the Heresy, there is the first time they encounter Heretic Marines and the Ultras are unable to grasp the idea that their 'brothers' would turn on them, putting them at a complete disadvantage. In a way, they embody the indoctrination and dogma that has brought the Imperium to its stagnation. They are the perfect representation of what the Imperium has become, but I doubt the Emperor himself would prize their position so highly.
Blood Angels represent the tragedy that is so prevalent in the setting. Arguably, they are one of the most pure and loyal chapters, that have been cursed with such a debilitating flaw that they can never truly fulfil this position. Depending on which version of the Horus-Emperor battle you go with, Sanguinis's sacrifice could appear meaningless, a trend that continues in 40k with the Blood Angel's nobility and honour being ultimately futile in the face of their flaw that can undermine them.
Space Wolves occupy the position as one of the most free and human Chapters, existing outside of the dogma that plagues the rest of the Imperium, but as a result find themselves alienated by those they try and defend. Their poor ties with the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy preclude them from truly fitting in, meaning they are, like the Blood Angels, unable to truly make good their well-meaning intentions without undermining their position as loyal servants of the Imperium. Their attempts to serve the Imperium but not its masters sets them apart from the other Astartes.
The Dark Angels represent the fact that nothing and no one is incorruptible; they have the an essentially pure gene-seed but still lost half the legion to Chaos. They also demonstrate the double-faced nature of the Imperium, claiming to be loyal servants while still hiding secrets that would have them outcast should they be discovered. Much like the Blood Angels, they can never truly fulfil the role the Space Marines are intended to occupy until they have dealt with their own, internal weakness; in this case their fear of the Fallen being discovered.
Salamanders are in a way more moderate Space Wolves. Both refute the codex in part, both have lost Primarchs that have promised to return, both value the lives of their allies as much as their own. However, the Salamanders are not alienated in the same way as they are shown to adapt to the system as required, while the Space Wolves are too set in their ways to do so.
The Iron Hands embody the Space Marine's position as something more than human, constantly 'upgrading' themselves to purge weakness, possibly only to eventually weaken themselves by losing who they were. Their brutal and uncompromising approach to purging the enemy as they would themselves similarly my do more harm that good, given the number of innocents they slaughter as preventive measures.
The Imperial Fists are arguably the closest to a 'pure' Chapter, in ideology if not in genetics, but are perhaps constrained by their beliefs, if less so than the Ultramarines. Similarly, their stubbornness causes them to hold round where it would be better withdrawn from, which increases the toll on the Chapter despite achieving victory.
The Raven Guard and White Scars are difficult to place. The Raven Guard share the trait with the Salamanders and Wolves that they will often prize human life higher than other Chapters, and the autonomous operations of the Chapter may prevent them from deploying en masse, which potentially limits the usefulness of the Chapter given the scale of war in 40k. The Scars seem similar in their slight deviation from the Codex, but there aren't any noticeable flaws. I suppose it could be argued that their specialisation with fast assaults could limit their usefulness in a stagnant or prolonged campaign, but I'm just clutching at straws here.
I think I've rambled long enough here (although I may do this again for a few successors). What I do think this shows is that no Chapter is truly flawless or deviod of character, and neither is any hugely worse than any other. There's plenty of depth to all of them. As a final note, this has made me realise I know very little about the Raven Guard and White Scars, if anyone has any good links about them I'd be interested to see them.
Please, sir... have ALL of my exalts!
Emperor's Eagles (undergoing Chapter reorganization)
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?)
To be honest, I do find all of this 'my Chapter's better' stuff somewhat odd, but that may just be because I'm working towards having armies for 9 different Chapters/Legions (all the original loyalists). To me, all the Chapters represent different things, none is strictly better than the other.
Ultramarines at first glance appear flawless, until you consider that is their flaw in itself. The rigidity with which they adhere to the codex makes them far less able to adapt than other chapters. Going back to the Heresy, there is the first time they encounter Heretic Marines and the Ultras are unable to grasp the idea that their 'brothers' would turn on them, putting them at a complete disadvantage. In a way, they embody the indoctrination and dogma that has brought the Imperium to its stagnation. They are the perfect representation of what the Imperium has become, but I doubt the Emperor himself would prize their position so highly.
Blood Angels represent the tragedy that is so prevalent in the setting. Arguably, they are one of the most pure and loyal chapters, that have been cursed with such a debilitating flaw that they can never truly fulfil this position. Depending on which version of the Horus-Emperor battle you go with, Sanguinis's sacrifice could appear meaningless, a trend that continues in 40k with the Blood Angel's nobility and honour being ultimately futile in the face of their flaw that can undermine them.
Space Wolves occupy the position as one of the most free and human Chapters, existing outside of the dogma that plagues the rest of the Imperium, but as a result find themselves alienated by those they try and defend. Their poor ties with the Inquisition and the Ecclesiarchy preclude them from truly fitting in, meaning they are, like the Blood Angels, unable to truly make good their well-meaning intentions without undermining their position as loyal servants of the Imperium. Their attempts to serve the Imperium but not its masters sets them apart from the other Astartes.
The Dark Angels represent the fact that nothing and no one is incorruptible; they have the an essentially pure gene-seed but still lost half the legion to Chaos. They also demonstrate the double-faced nature of the Imperium, claiming to be loyal servants while still hiding secrets that would have them outcast should they be discovered. Much like the Blood Angels, they can never truly fulfil the role the Space Marines are intended to occupy until they have dealt with their own, internal weakness; in this case their fear of the Fallen being discovered.
Salamanders are in a way more moderate Space Wolves. Both refute the codex in part, both have lost Primarchs that have promised to return, both value the lives of their allies as much as their own. However, the Salamanders are not alienated in the same way as they are shown to adapt to the system as required, while the Space Wolves are too set in their ways to do so.
The Iron Hands embody the Space Marine's position as something more than human, constantly 'upgrading' themselves to purge weakness, possibly only to eventually weaken themselves by losing who they were. Their brutal and uncompromising approach to purging the enemy as they would themselves similarly my do more harm that good, given the number of innocents they slaughter as preventive measures.
The Imperial Fists are arguably the closest to a 'pure' Chapter, in ideology if not in genetics, but are perhaps constrained by their beliefs, if less so than the Ultramarines. Similarly, their stubbornness causes them to hold round where it would be better withdrawn from, which increases the toll on the Chapter despite achieving victory.
The Raven Guard and White Scars are difficult to place. The Raven Guard share the trait with the Salamanders and Wolves that they will often prize human life higher than other Chapters, and the autonomous operations of the Chapter may prevent them from deploying en masse, which potentially limits the usefulness of the Chapter given the scale of war in 40k. The Scars seem similar in their slight deviation from the Codex, but there aren't any noticeable flaws. I suppose it could be argued that their specialisation with fast assaults could limit their usefulness in a stagnant or prolonged campaign, but I'm just clutching at straws here.
I think I've rambled long enough here (although I may do this again for a few successors). What I do think this shows is that no Chapter is truly flawless or deviod of character, and neither is any hugely worse than any other. There's plenty of depth to all of them. As a final note, this has made me realise I know very little about the Raven Guard and White Scars, if anyone has any good links about them I'd be interested to see them.
Please, sir... have ALL of my exalts!
Thank you. I do think there's every chance I've read waaay to far into some of the fluff here, but I'm glad someone appreciated it.
"From iron cometh strength! From strength cometh will! From will cometh faith! From faith cometh honour! From honour cometh iron!"
Even though they're not even loyal (they always were in my eyes) there is no other space marine faction quite like them. Devotion, coolness, ruthless determination and will as strong as iron, the Iron Warriors would have been the masters and architects of the galaxy if only someone paid attention to them.
Paradigm wrote: To be honest, I do find all of this 'my Chapter's better' stuff somewhat odd, but that may just be because I'm working towards having armies for 9 different Chapters/Legions (all the original loyalists). To me, all the Chapters represent different things, none is strictly better than the other.
TBH I don't think many people have indulged in that. The OP asked why people would want to identify with " lesser chapters." Most people have just responded with why they don't like/get Ultramarines. From a fairly incendiary original posting it hasn't really turned in to chapter fanboys comparing their Epeens.
Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote: "From iron cometh strength! From strength cometh will! From will cometh faith! From faith cometh honour! From honour cometh iron!"
Even though they're not even loyal (they always were in my eyes) there is no other space marine faction quite like them. Devotion, coolness, ruthless determination and will as strong as iron, the Iron Warriors would have been the masters and architects of the galaxy if only someone paid attention to them.
Iron within, Iron without!!!
I cant agree with that. His Ironness had a habit of killing his own men. they barely trusted each other let alone anyone else and they had a huge grudge with the fists for no paticular reason. the word bearers had a reason to hate the UM's after monarchia but the Fists and the Ironmen had a rivalry which "Mr im always angry" couldnt let go. I think the Iron worriors would have ended up being scrubbed from records.
To be fair, I exaggerated a bit in the opening statement, I was really just setting up the synopsis section by saying that all the chapters are in general equally developed, rather than some being too perfect or lacking in depth. I wasn't really referring to this thread at all (which has remained good-natured and interesting), but some of the debates I've seen online have come down to that.
Paradigm wrote: To be honest, I do find all of this 'my Chapter's better' stuff somewhat odd, but that may just be because I'm working towards having armies for 9 different Chapters/Legions (all the original loyalists). To me, all the Chapters represent different things, none is strictly better than the other.
TBH I don't think many people have indulged in that. The OP asked why people would want to identify with " lesser chapters." Most people have just responded with why they don't like/get Ultramarines. From a fairly incendiary original posting it hasn't really turned in to chapter fanboys comparing their Epeens.
BTW Exalt on the chapter synopsis btw
completely agree with both of these comments imperious and also just to get back on track... pretty sure people dont choose who to join. i doubt youd see a 6 year old ultramrian? traveling halfway across the milky way in the hope of becoming a scar. 95% sure it is just if you were born on a recruiting world then guess what... you join that chapter
And this is why the Ultramarine fanboys are the BEST people to keep around.
They are amazing for comedic value and a boost in ego when you realize that you might have your favorites...but at least you are 'that guy'!
To the post. Ultramar, you say, is the beacon of what civilizations should be. History tells us that civilizations that have such feelings of self-greatness don't fair well.
Farseer Faenyin 7,100 pts Yme-Loc Eldar(Apoc Included) / 5,700 pts (Non-Apoc) Record for 6th Edition- Eldar: 25-4-2
Record for 7th Edition -
Eldar: 0-0-0 (Yes, I feel it is that bad)
Battlefleet Gothic: 2,750 pts of Craftworld Eldar
X-wing(Focusing on Imperials): CR90, 6 TIE Fighters, 4 TIE Interceptors, TIE Bomber, TIE Advanced, 4 X-wings, 3 A-wings, 3 B-wings, Y-wing, Z-95
Battletech: Battlion and Command Lance of 3025 Mechs(painted as 21st Rim Worlds)
"That time I only loaded the cannon with powder. Next time, I will fill it with jewels and diamonds and they will cut you to shrebbons!" - Nogbad the Bad.
Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote: "From iron cometh strength! From strength cometh will! From will cometh faith! From faith cometh honour! From honour cometh iron!"
Even though they're not even loyal (they always were in my eyes) there is no other space marine faction quite like them. Devotion, coolness, ruthless determination and will as strong as iron, the Iron Warriors would have been the masters and architects of the galaxy if only someone paid attention to them.
Iron within, Iron without!!!
I cant agree with that. His Ironness had a habit of killing his own men. they barely trusted each other let alone anyone else and they had a huge grudge with the fists for no paticular reason. the word bearers had a reason to hate the UM's after monarchia but the Fists and the Ironmen had a rivalry which "Mr im always angry" couldnt let go. I think the Iron worriors would have ended up being scrubbed from records.
What you said is not entirely true
1. He only started killing his own men after the incident with his home planet Olympia and also after Istvaan 5 (only one person is mentioned to be killed- Warsmith Breossus)
2. They could only trust each other (and Horus, since he was the one who was sympathetic to Perturabo after him destroying Olympia). They lost compete trust in Fulgrim and his EC after pretending to be nice to them, then setting them us as bait and Perturabo as the sacrifice to fuel Pilgrim's ascension to daemonhood)
3. He had a grudge with the IF for a very obvious reasons. While the IF got all the glory and fame, the IW had to do the messiest and most menial of any Legion's tasks- garrisoning worlds, laying siege to cities and empires for years, etc). One incident which really stuck in Perturabo's craw was a painter Roget made a picture celebrating a supposed IF victory in which the Iron Warriors did most of the work, and the only representation of them is a lonely IW apothecary tending to the wounded (Known as 'For the Fallen). Perturabo bought the picture and burned it. Rogal Dorn wanted Roget to paint it again, but he wisely refused. The subappretiation, looking down on them and alienation of all the other Legions (except the Thousand Sons and Luna Wolves) made them very bitter, ESPECIALLY towards Dorn's IF. Shame. So they had every reason for this grudge
4. They were scrubbed from records, because they turned traitor. Which they would have never did if the whole Prospero thing didn't happen.
5. Read Angel Exterminatus. It's a very good book!
When referring to C:Ultramarines I was ironically referring to the 5th Edition Codex.
Also the 5th Edition Blood Angels Codex where Matt Ward stated that it was Roboute Guilliman that helped to craft the Blood Angels into the Chapter they are today, and how all Blood Angels look up to the Ultramarines.
That.. That really ticked me off.
Hmm, you don't understand why anyone would choose to be from a "lesser" chapter?
The Minotaurs laugh. One of my favourite parts of their fluff is that they pissed off the UMs by mauling one of their successors. Hilarious.
Pretre: OOOOHHHHH snap. That's like driving away from hitting a pedestrian.
Pacific:First person to Photoshop a GW store into the streets of Kabul wins the thread.
Selym: "Be true to thyself, play Chaos" - Jesus, Daemon Prince of Cegorach.
H.B.M.C: You can't lobotomise someone twice.
liquidjoshi wrote: Hmm, you don't understand why anyone would choose to be from a "lesser" chapter?
The Minotaurs laugh. One of my favourite parts of their fluff is that they pissed off the UMs by mauling one of their successors. Hilarious.
A million times this.
Not only did they nearly wipe out the Interceptors, the honored 2nd founding chapter was subsequently robbed of most of their chapter relics, including their flagship, a relic of the great crusade.
This got them the undying hate of the Ultramarines and were forever banned from the 500 worlds (But really, why would the Minotaurs care?)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/20 09:10:06
ChrisWWII wrote:I eventually realized that it was apparently one die I had been rolling that kept turning up 3s. My reaction was to take said die, and hurl it out the window of the 3rd floor of our student union. I then placed a Commissar model next to the rest of my dice pile. They immediately began performing much better.
UltraTacSgt wrote: How could you not be an Ultramarine? What drove you to seek refuge with a lesser chapter?
Because I like flavour for starters.
And if the Ultras are good at everything, they are the best at nothing (maybe logistics? Though I think they have the IF as strong competition). And some people prefer being best at something. Let's say... bikes ! Let's say... flaming weapons ! Let's say... jump infantry! And so on and so on.
If I follow your reasonning, my question would be : How could you not be a Grey Knight?
Like an Ultra, just better.
I cannot say envy the Ultramarines, they are a proud and mighty chapter. But when it comes down to it, there is only one chapter that truly adheres to the founding of space marines.
The Black Templars
Their history dates back before the heresy, Sigismund a true champion among demigods. Stalwart in their cause the Imperial Fists stead fast defense of Terra cannot be out done. (Along side their fellow brothers who stood side by side with them.)
The Black Templars expand and keep the Imperium of man together. Ruthless and unforgiving they are the tip of the spear when it comes to reclaiming and expanding. They are on a never ending crusade, always fighting, always moving forward and never retreating. They have no need to claim a world as their own, for the Imperium and every world within it is theirs and they fight for it. Having a home world makes a chapter weak and vulnerable. They would be more inclined to chase home to defend it than stay among the stars to bring the fight where it is needed next.
To me the answer is simple, at the biggest event in humanities history, the Siege of Terra, the boys in blue werent there.
The Blood Angels, Fists and White Scars fought alongside untold numbers of guardsmen against the Legions of Horus and their demon allies. Where were the Ultramarines?
When the emperor teleported onto the Vengeful Spirit, Dorn and the blessed Sanguinius went with him, leaving the Khan to command the defenses, where was their brother Guilliman?
So, why am i not a Ultramarine? because when it matterd most, they werent there.
There is only the Emperor! He is our shield and protector.
To me the answer is simple, at the biggest event in humanities history, the Siege of Terra, the boys in blue werent there.
The Blood Angels, Fists and White Scars fought alongside untold numbers of guardsmen against the Legions of Horus and their demon allies. Where were the Ultramarines?
When the emperor teleported onto the Vengeful Spirit, Dorn and the blessed Sanguinius went with him, leaving the Khan to command the defenses, where was their brother Guilliman?
So, why am i not a Ultramarine? because when it matterd most, they werent there.
If I know my heresy, I think they were having the daylights beaten out of them on Calth. But the reason they were is because Horus knew that if the Ultramarines reached Terra, before or during the Siege, it would be game-over for him. Hence, he diverted a huge portion of his forces (Word Bearers being the 2nd largest Legion, I think) to taking them out. Horus recognised the Ultramarines could turn the tide of the war, and as such aimed to take them out in a single blow.
You could also argue that, in the days after the Heresy, it was the strength of the Legions not mauled at Terra that held the Imperium together. What happened between Horus and the Emperor almost had to happen (the ship itself ensured they fought 1v1), so ultimately, Gulliman joining the Emperor would have been futile and a waste of effort, as the Emperor would still have become separated. And had he died on the Spirit, there would be no re-written Codex, and subsequent formation of Chapters. Imagine what the Badab War would have been like if Huron's forces were actually legion-size.
Whatever the faults of the Ultramarines, and there are many, I'm not sure it's their fault they weren't at Terra.
To me the answer is simple, at the biggest event in humanities history, the Siege of Terra, the boys in blue werent there.
The Blood Angels, Fists and White Scars fought alongside untold numbers of guardsmen against the Legions of Horus and their demon allies. Where were the Ultramarines?
When the emperor teleported onto the Vengeful Spirit, Dorn and the blessed Sanguinius went with him, leaving the Khan to command the defenses, where was their brother Guilliman?
So, why am i not a Ultramarine? because when it matterd most, they werent there.
If I know my heresy, I think they were having the daylights beaten out of them on Calth. But the reason they were is because Horus knew that if the Ultramarines reached Terra, before or during the Siege, it would be game-over for him. Hence, he diverted a huge portion of his forces (Word Bearers being the 2nd largest Legion, I think) to taking them out. Horus recognised the Ultramarines could turn the tide of the war, and as such aimed to take them out in a single blow.
You could also argue that, in the days after the Heresy, it was the strength of the Legions not mauled at Terra that held the Imperium together. What happened between Horus and the Emperor almost had to happen (the ship itself ensured they fought 1v1), so ultimately, Gulliman joining the Emperor would have been futile and a waste of effort, as the Emperor would still have become separated. And had he died on the Spirit, there would be no re-written Codex, and subsequent formation of Chapters. Imagine what the Badab War would have been like if Huron's forces were actually legion-size.
Whatever the faults of the Ultramarines, and there are many, I'm not sure it's their fault they weren't at Terra.
Were working in shaky ground here since theyve retconned this stuff numberous times.
According to the latest retcon, as things stand according to Black Library, after A Unrememberd Empire, Guilliman is on Macragge with the Lion and Sanguinius...Somehow we know tthat Sanguinius and his legion get to Terra, while Guilliman and the UM dont. i guess well find out the reasons why. Whether its because of a good reason or because he just wanted to protect his "Imperium Secundus" i guess well find out.
Either way, the Ultras werent at the seige of terra, and thats why i dont play em.
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What happened between Horus and the Emperor almost had to happen (the ship itself ensured they fought 1v1), so ultimately, Gulliman joining the Emperor would have been futile and a waste of effort, as the Emperor would still have become separated. And had he died on the Spirit, there would be no re-written Codex, and subsequent formation of Chapters. Imagine what the Badab War would have been like if Huron's forces were actually legion-size.
Again thanks to retconning we could both be right, but as i remember reading about it, The Emperor and his 2 sons teleoported onto the Spirit as a last ditch effort to try and decapitate the enemy in a single swoop by killing Horus, becuase the loyalist defenses were falling. Unbenounced to them (and why Horus lowered his shields and let them in) the Lion and Guilliman were finallly on their way to break the seige.
I would argue that if the UM were at Terra for the battle, being the largest legion, maybe the Emp wouldnt have had to teleport onto the Vengeful Spirit.
but at this point were arguing about hypotheticalls and are getting off on a tangent.
Me personally, i play Fists (Crimson because i cant paint yellow), i dont play Ultramarines because they werent at the seminal event in Human history.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/20 19:55:53
There is only the Emperor! He is our shield and protector.
Ah, I don't really know about the 'Unremembered Empire' stuff, I thought Calth and Terra happened within a year or so of each other, so the Ultras were still nursing their wounds so to speak.
I agree all these retcons get confusing. I mean, there's a different version in every codex involving SM.
By the way if you're interested in what may or may not have happened with different versions of the battle at Terra, check out this thread from a while back: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/558417.page#6161734 It gets a bit complicated, but it's well worth a read if you've got time.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/02/20 20:00:31
Farseer Faenyin wrote: And this is why the Ultramarine fanboys are the BEST people to keep around.
They are amazing for comedic value and a boost in ego when you realize that you might have your favorites...but at least you are 'that guy'!
To the post. Ultramar, you say, is the beacon of what civilizations should be. History tells us that civilizations that have such feelings of self-greatness don't fair well.
Is it wrong that I find that funny, coming from an American? :p
To be fair, I don't think there's been a single empire or large civilization that hasn't had feelings of self greatness. And most of those have fallen, one way or another. But that doesn't mean that their achievements weren't great. Take the Romans for example (rather apt, given that we're talking about the Ultramarines). Yes their empire collapsed under barbarian invaders but they did manage a good few centuries of peace and relative stability- during which they made great cultural and technological advancements. All empires will be cast down eventually but that doesn't mean they weren't great while they lasted.
Back to the topic at hand.
I'm an Ultramarine player, collector, bit of a fanboy, and I think I like them for the fact that they are, pretty much, just the good guys.
For that matter, I far prefer the Christopher Reeve Superman to the new, angst ridden modern one. And (whisper it) Batman, for that matter. Sometimes it's just nice to have a hero, with out all the dark secrets and daddy issues.
Also, I like the Blue more than all the other colours!
Caledonian 95th (undergoing regimental reorganization)
Thousands Sons (undergoing Warband re--- wait, are any of my 40K armies playable?) 
Farseer Faenyin 
7,100 pts Yme-Loc Eldar(Apoc Included) / 5,700 pts (Non-Apoc) 
Crimson Fist- 9,000+
30K Imperial Fists- 2100 
