Okay, safe to assume that it's okay to talk about tactics for these new guys.


So, 370-375 Isn't that much compared to some stuff and it is the only non escalation superheavy walker to take to the field. I'm thinking it goes good with a bike army, as it moves 12" along with everything else, and can draw some fire away from the bikes. Maybe it's prudent to run vindicators or something along side to add more AV 13 to the fight?

Also, would this help against MC's?


Note, we only know the WD rules so far and there may be more in the future.

I like the idea of running them with bikers; it will be a fire magnet and hopefully the 4++ will help with a lot of the shooting headed its way. As far as value for points, I'm not sure yet, it lacks the mobility of the Riptide while being a bit more durable and a lot nastier in CC. If you did run vindicators, I'd have to recommend BA vindis for their sweet fast vehicle status.

Don't think you can do that if you run WS main as knights take up the allies slot. But maybe the knight can cover for the vindicators as they move 12" up the field.

Maybe take Guard primary, Inquisition retinue, and one knight, have an Inquisitor or Coteaz cast prescience on it? Are the knights worth presciencing?

The servo skulls might help with scatter on the big guns.

Ah so true, I was thinking the Knights would ally like Inquisition and not take up the actual ally slot for some reason.... hmm...

Well, for the variants I see myself going paladin mostly, as that main cannon looks like it would hurt almost anything.

I did think of one fun strategy. Field a whole army of them and run straight for the enemy. Laugh with maniacal glee as the enemy blows up your Knights, only to discover that, upon doing so, a 15" blast template scatters around, killing swathes of their own army.

For that very reason, you probably don't want one of them near the bulk of your own army.

I ordered one today as soon as I found out any army can take one as an ally. Gonna make as disgusting a nurgle knight as I can come up with.

My only question is "Can it Anti-Air?"

If it's got an option for skyfire somewhere, I think I'd bring one and drop the ADL/Mortis Contemptor Dread I've got for my Dark Angels.

Having actually run a Paladin in game last night, here are a few findings:

- it's fast. I used it with a Drop Pod/Deathwing list, and the Knight had caught up with the first wave within 2 turns. I do think you should be trying to get them into combat, as a) if they do blow up there's more chance of damaging enemy units and b) it's just killy, between HOW, 4 S: D attacks and Stomp attacks, it can rack up quite the kill count.

- You can target pretty much anything shooting-wise thanks to the height and huge range of the gun, and in CC you can potentially line up 3 options for a charge, giving you a lot of freedom in who to massacre. Given free reign, this thing should be racking up a unit a turn at least, I think.

- With the 4++ and 6HP, it's very survivable. In 4 turns, mine lost 1HP against a necron list that at one point spent a whole turn shooting everything at it. Just make sure you can position it so that the 4++ faces the biggest threat, and if need be (ie you are flanked) get the AV13 facing towards the next largest threat.

- I found it slotted nicely into a 1500 point list, I didn't feel like I was lacking models anywhere else because of the cost. 2 tactical squads and 2 DW termie squads with the knight works pretty well.

i think my orks will have a hard time with this guy...

Orks may well have it rough, your only options are either to hope a PK-armed model lives long enough to hit it a couple of times or to get some Deffkoptas with missiles past the Ion Shield.

That said, I imagine most players would let you bring a Stompa if they bought a Knight, so it'd balance out there.

i think the deffkoptas or stompa are a must then. this thing can shoot every ork to grottpieces from a distance, and in cc, the d weapon will just kill my warbosses like flies. The dakkajet wil just glance it with 6's, and so on..

i'm thinking of fielding a special knight busting squad (if i know i play against them) with deffkoptas with rokkits, maybe buzzsaw and the FW boss to back em up and hope they survive long enough

If I were Knight-hunting as Orks, I'd bring maybe 2 squads of 3-4 Deffkoptas with rockets (wouldn't bother with the Buzzsaw, he'll take them apart in CC before they swing), and hope to get them outflanking from different sides, as the Ion shield can only cover one facing. With the Koptas being T5, none of the Knight's ranged weapons will ID them, and you'll still get jink saves against both, so there's little chance of the squad being killed before they can do much.

As for the Warboss in CC, make sure you put 4 boyz between him and the Knight. That way, they will die to the D-weapon attacks and the Warboss can then rock up and swing. With S10 he's penning on 4s and the Ion Shield doesn't work in CC, and every 'explodes' results does D3 HP, so he should make a mess of it if nothing else. You will lose a lot of Boys in the process, and probably the Warboss, but if you're positioning carefully then he should at least last long enough to swing.

i'm curious how this will work out in a real game.

but maybe with the new ork codex in pipeline, the orks will get some sort of new 'mini stompa' or 'uge dread that can take care of this kind of enemies

 Paradigm wrote:
Having actually run a Paladin in game last night, here are a few findings:

- it's fast. I used it with a Drop Pod/Deathwing list, and the Knight had caught up with the first wave within 2 turns. I do think you should be trying to get them into combat, as a) if they do blow up there's more chance of damaging enemy units and b) it's just killy, between HOW, 4 S: D attacks and Stomp attacks, it can rack up quite the kill count.

- You can target pretty much anything shooting-wise thanks to the height and huge range of the gun, and in CC you can potentially line up 3 options for a charge, giving you a lot of freedom in who to massacre. Given free reign, this thing should be racking up a unit a turn at least, I think.

- With the 4++ and 6HP, it's very survivable. In 4 turns, mine lost 1HP against a necron list that at one point spent a whole turn shooting everything at it. Just make sure you can position it so that the 4++ faces the biggest threat, and if need be (ie you are flanked) get the AV13 facing towards the next largest threat.

- I found it slotted nicely into a 1500 point list, I didn't feel like I was lacking models anywhere else because of the cost. 2 tactical squads and 2 DW termie squads with the knight works pretty well.

This makes me hopeful

Do I remember correctly that the knight has d3 stomp attacks as a walker?

Pretty sure it's D3 Stomps at the Knight's S10.

To add to my earlier comments,having finished the game this morning:

- I can see the Knight working very well as an area-denial tool, as whatever it touches WILL disappear. Armies without mobility to redeploy fast will struggle a lot against it, as they will get hit unless they can clear the area. With the 12" move and 2d6 Charge, it's got a great threat range. It's also always worth going for stupid charges with it; it has very little to fear from overwatch, after all.

- This could be a very nice counter to fortification-based army, for the above reasons. Just make a beeline for any building and the Knight will take it down.

How was the Knight's battle cannon? did it wreck anything?

I think the RFBC accounted for over 30 necron warriors, so nothing massive but he was getting lucky with RP rolls. In terms of what it would have killed without RP, I'd say it was closer to 50.

 Paradigm wrote:
Pretty sure it's D3 Stomps at the Knight's S10.

To add to my earlier comments,having finished the game this morning:

- I can see the Knight working very well as an area-denial tool, as whatever it touches WILL disappear. Armies without mobility to redeploy fast will struggle a lot against it, as they will get hit unless they can clear the area. With the 12" move and 2d6 Charge, it's got a great threat range. It's also always worth going for stupid charges with it; it has very little to fear from overwatch, after all.

- This could be a very nice counter to fortification-based army, for the above reasons. Just make a beeline for any building and the Knight will take it down.

Isn't it D3 stomps and then roll on the table? 1 = nothing, 2-5 = S6 AP4, 6 remove that model (for infantry)

Or is it a special rule without the apocalypse rules for it.

Stomp is in Escalation and Apoc rulebooks.

Well, what can kill this model are ranged D weapons. Beware of a Revenant Titan. Two hits from its D weapon and with only 6 HPs this small Titan is gone; one hit may also suffice.

some idiots at my gw are saying that it is Escalation only until they get a codex, only based on the fact it has the behemoth and D weapon rules which are in escalation. Despite me saying so that they arn't and only allies.

Not important but it rustled my jimmies. is it true?

Escelation isn't an optional thing, its part of the rules of the standard game, so that doesn't matter.


On to the topic, there are two ways to run Knights, as an add on for an existing army or as an army of their own. In the former you want to ram that single knight (or maybe two if you have them as allies) down your opponents throat and make him deal with it while the rest of your army tries its best to carry out its mission.

In the latter, it seems to me that the BattleCannon knights should hang back and manouvre for clear shots while the thermal cannon knights go in for the kill.

sand.zzz wrote:
I ordered one today as soon as I found out any army can take one as an ally. Gonna make as disgusting a nurgle knight as I can come up with.

And this news came from? I was under the impression it was Imperial Allie only...

Paradigm - You say only 30 warriors with the RFBC, but thats 390 points dude.
Made its points back killing basic troops.
Not only that, but in objective games that alone would have won you a game.

From what i can see though, they have no way to target a flyer, right?

Oh yeah, complete brainfart there, I must have miscounted the cost. I suppose the basic troops didn't register as that expensive, but I did kill them in droves.

And yeah, it would've won an objective game. We were playing a custom scenario, with a bunch of extra special rules, the most significant being that all necron infantry units wiped out returned to play the next turn, so I basically tabled him twice and the Knight did most of the heavy lifting. On top of this, I handicapped myself 100 points as we both had no idea how the super-heavy would affect things, and I didn't at any point feel outgunned. I won't say the Knight is OP, but it's certainly good.

No way to hit fliers, though, so that makes them particularly weak to the likes of Vendettas and Stormravens that can shelter troops for late-game airdrops and also attack it with no fear of counter-attack. Of course, you have the rest of the army's AA, but the Knight itself is powerless against fliers.

A couple of observations after a game with the melta version:

-Keep enemy units to one facing to maximise use of the shielding, otherwise utilise cover to protect your side armour against fast units. Seems obvious but the fact that the shield works differently to a normal vehicle means that you need to play slightly differently.

-Six HP is very durable. Thing is though, you pay alot of points for it. If you aren't loosing a few HP, or at least soaking firepower, then you aren't getting value for your points..

-Yes this guy is fast, but fast skimmers and jetbikes will still run rings around it. So will flyers. Again, plan ahead and protect your side/rear.

-The firepower is strong, but not overwhelming. Don't rely on these guys to do all the heavy lifting by themselves. Especially considering that neither of the variants is able to negate enemy cover, despite strong strength and AP values.

-Knights absolutely dominate other vehicles in assault, and low-model count enemies too. But this is a double edged sword, because once again you're paying large points for this ability yet in order to utilise is you're placing your large investment in the position for which it is potentially the most simple for an opponent to destroy. Meaning, meltaguns, haywire weapons, powerfists ect are all thing you need to be cognizant of when maneuvering close to the enemy. Plan ahead and avoid these things. If necessary force them to come to you and use your supporting units to deal with them.

tl;dl - Knights are strong but need to be used with a degree of caution to ensure they survive, but also with a degree of aggression to make your points investment does more than simply stand around looking cool.

Also, don't forget your heavy stubbers There's your AA. Lel.

http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/imperial-knight-rules-clarification.html

Holy cow they count as scoring, and that link takes a direct quote from GW's digital edition Facebook page.

via Jes Bickham (who is the editor of White Dwarf) on GW Digital Facebook
Some clarification on the rules we presented in White Dwarf today for some folks here: the Imperial Knights don't occupy any force organisation slots, they are not Lords of War, they are an army unto themselves. Something we forgot to say is that all Imperial Knights are scoring units, and if you're playing 3-6 as a primary detachment, pick one as your Warlord.

Scoring eh? Could actually make an ABG a viable force, giving them solid scoring and counter assault units.

Well, if you can field a whole army of Knights, then in the usually missions there must be a way to score.

They're scoring? They're scoring! THEY'RE SCORING!?

Damn, I'm not going to have friends at the club any more.

Seriously, though, that's totally changed how they play. Not only can you kick pretty much any unit off an objective, you can then camp it yourself. I'm beginning to think that's just a bit OP.

So, are they scoring in their own detachment or in an allied slot?

According to the WD editor's post (on the last page), all Knights are scoring, don't take up a FOC slot and are not Lords of War.

I thought vechiles couldn't score.

They can't normally, but Knights can as per that post.

Excorist Tanks, you've been replaced.

So I guess that with two Knights my BA army can be unshelved soon.

One knight can be HQ the other knights can score. You can add a redoubt or something for AA

Per the blog post, all of them score, and one of them counts as a Warlord. Which means the Warlord scores, too.

I am so running a Knight Household!

SJ

But they don't contest, because they're vehicles.

So if I'm a troops unit on an objective, and your knight is there too, then I'm holding it, but there's no contesting unit nearby, so I claim the objective.

You're scoring, but then there's a contesting unit nearby, so you can't claim it.

That's what 10-12 battle cannon shots are for

Hm,I've seen they can ally themselves out, but what about take their own allies? How do they work with that chart?

That's the big question. The article just says "take them as allies with YOUR army".

Tyranids with knight titan allies!

It needs to be clarified.

 Paradigm wrote:
According to the WD editor's post (on the last page), all Knights are scoring, don't take up a FOC slot and are not Lords of War.

Might make a poll on whether people think this is responsible rule writing, yes or no?

 Spellbound wrote:
That's the big question. The article just says "take them as allies with YOUR army".

Tyranids with knight titan allies!

It needs to be clarified.

Seeing how even the most renegade of the knights orders are still human, they wouldn't exactly find themselves in a position to ally with a race that views them as raw materials

The knights are independent of the Imperium, something I thought was pretty cool. They can be spun into being knight houses only, allied with their techpriest buddies (who just want a peek under the armor...) and "Ronin" or sorts who will probably just rent out their skills to whom ever is buying. So they'll easily drop in with imperial forces for sure, fluff would allow mercenary hires from tau/elder maybe, and of course, you could always make the claim one went heretical and fell to the warp. The non-human forces would have some other drawbacks though, and we're kinda waiting to see what those would be. They still count as a secondary ally, but I wonder... if I attach them to an inquisition force, can I then attach the inquisition to my main sisters (taking no detachment hit) and then get my secondary detachment of guardsmen? Mwahahaha....

Something I can see is having a Knight park on top of an Object and protect it. The base is so insanely large that it would be very easy to position it in such a way that someone would have to sweep in from the rear in order to contest an objective the knight is on (as that you must be within 3" to contest)

As of now Nids can take them. Doesn't mean we need to use the models. A Trygon with a rupture cannon could be a paladin and acid sprayer could be a Thermal Cannon.

This is tactica, there is another thread for these kind of allies (an extensive one) in 40k general. This is for tactics!

On topic: I can picture a knight running forward to get to an objective fast. It's now an even bigger target with that!

Can Creed scout the titan?

One thing another thread talked about is its death kneel explosion. So maybe running bikes near it isn't a good thing

Taking just one Imperial Knight makes me think of using the Knight Paladin as a sort of all-purpose unit. The rapid battle-cannon alows you to shred MEQ and horde units with impunity, while the D weapon in close combat allows you to easily destroy AV 14 monstrosities like Land Raiders and Monoliths.

And even if they threaten you with melta, any melta close enough to threaten it will either be close enough to CC if they don't kill the knight, or the knight has a good chance to kill them with its own death.

The Knight Paladin should serve as an effective area denial tool, which in objectives missions will prove critical.

I see one Knight as a walking bomb.

I plan on trying a single Knight Errant in my Salamanders list. Drop on one side of the board and send him to the far end of his enemy line. Sort of an "attack his flanks" to force him to pick condense his army to one side or the other. Even if his entire army falls towards the pods, I'll have a scoring Knight on his previously owned objectives.

I'll know more when my Knight comes in from the Pre-Order

 Spellbound wrote:
But they don't contest, because they're vehicles.

So if I'm a troops unit on an objective, and your knight is there too, then I'm holding it, but there's no contesting unit nearby, so I claim the objective.

You're scoring, but then there's a contesting unit nearby, so you can't claim it.

If they score, they also contest, just look at Missions that make HS or FA units ( that happens to be a lot of vehicles) score and contest for objectives.

Except they don't contest. They just count as scoring, which isn't the same.

 Paradigm wrote:
They're scoring? They're scoring! THEY'RE SCORING!?

Damn, I'm not going to have friends at the club any more.

Seriously, though, that's totally changed how they play. Not only can you kick pretty much any unit off an objective, you can then camp it yourself. I'm beginning to think that's just a bit OP.

OP = $

I am hoping for a dumb rush of people looking to take advantage of the over-the-top rules followed by minor shifts in the rules that bring the Knight closer to the norm (the rumored '6.5/7th edition'). But who knows, if they want to sell the models badly enough, then they will just skip the second step. Welcome to MechWarrior 40k.

Rapture wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
They're scoring? They're scoring! THEY'RE SCORING!?

Damn, I'm not going to have friends at the club any more.

Seriously, though, that's totally changed how they play. Not only can you kick pretty much any unit off an objective, you can then camp it yourself. I'm beginning to think that's just a bit OP.

Welcome to MechWarrior 40k.

Exalted.

Haha ain't that the truth. I know the Riptide and Wraithknight aren't technically walkers (although one by all means should be IMO, but I'm not going open that can of worms) we take another step in the MechWarrior direction every few releases it seems. As much as I want to stay away from the bandwagon and as silly as I think the model looks, I'll probably grab a single one because tac marines suck something awful when not podded or spammed and I could use a decent scoring unit. I'd imagine I'm not the alone in doing so.

Yeah, if they are scoring that's huge.

I suspect a few Tau players will want to make some as Gue'vesa or Demi-urg allies in order to have a unit that can survive on an objective.

Necron players may be snickering though, at least the ones who don't spam Tesla.

I plan on using one in a Farsight Enclaves army and paint it up to match the scheme and maybe use some Farsight decals on it, would be a cool Freeblade!

 Elgrun wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
According to the WD editor's post (on the last page), all Knights are scoring, don't take up a FOC slot and are not Lords of War.

Might make a poll on whether people think this is responsible rule writing, yes or no?

It is definitely not responsible rules writing. They are over the top broken in every way. Even if you kill one your army will eat a 5" D blast.

Hopefully it's just like the past WD flamers and screamers that were OP for a few months to get WAAC players who need to win so desperately to feel good at life to buy tons of them.

The most abusive list I can think of is running an Imperial Guard Baneblade Variant (a good number clock in under 500 points), 2 Imperial Knight Paladins as allies, and flesh out the rest of the points (which is easy when playing IG).

In a 2000point list, one could take
A barebones CCS 50
PCS+2 melta 50
Infantry Squad x4 200
PCS+2 melta 50
Infantry Squad x4 200
PCS+1 Flam+1 melta 45
Infantry Squad x3 150

ShadowSword + 1 pair of sponsons 505 points

2 Allied Imperial Knight Paladins 750 points

The 2 Knight Paladins can seriously threaten any MEQ's or horde units, in addition to vehicles and monstrous creatures. The Shadowsword can sit in the backfield and destroy anything with impunity, whiles you have enough scoring troops to secure backfield objectives

I can't immediatly think of anything that can threaten both a standard super-heavy and 2 imperial knights in the same list. Thats 9 AV 14 HP and 12 AV 13 HP with a 4++ on a given facing for shooting. Enormously durable and extremely killy.

 kir44n wrote:
Enormously durable and extremely silly.

Fixed that one for you.

 herpguy wrote:

 Elgrun wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
According to the WD editor's post (on the last page), all Knights are scoring, don't take up a FOC slot and are not Lords of War.

Might make a poll on whether people think this is responsible rule writing, yes or no?

It is definitely not responsible rules writing. They are over the top broken in every way. Even if you kill one your army will eat a 5" D blast.

Hopefully it's just like the past WD flamers and screamers that were OP for a few months to get WAAC players who need to win so desperately to feel good at life to buy tons of them.

i hope your right, cause i like the model (won't buy it myself but want to see it on the tables) but i don't want my orks to get raped by some knights every game i play.

Why not use tactical genius on it and give it a 12" scout move? Then just romp anything on the first turn.

 Cadichan Support wrote:
Why not use tactical genius on it and give it a 12" scout move? Then just romp anything on the first turn.

Lol the image of a knight hiding behind a tree comes to mind. Personally I will be using my knight as a support for my mechvets mors than likely running down the sides of the table as a errant. And for when I want to go blob mixing the paladin with some fortifications seems a aweasome idea and a great assault deterrent.

How would these things do as a counter to most MC's?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
How would these things do as a counter to most MC's?

I think assault is their strongpoint with the Str D chainsword. With the potential to do up to 12 wounds on a single hit, that is pretty nasty.

Only thing is I believe the 4++ is only for shooting. So the MC can probably pen the AV13 pretty easily. The good news is the Knight cant be exploded without stripping every hull point away.

Chances are unless the Knight is seriously wounded it would win, I would imagine.

 herpguy wrote:

 Elgrun wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
According to the WD editor's post (on the last page), all Knights are scoring, don't take up a FOC slot and are not Lords of War.

Might make a poll on whether people think this is responsible rule writing, yes or no?

It is definitely not responsible rules writing. They are over the top broken in every way. Even if you kill one your army will eat a 5" D blast.

Hopefully it's just like the past WD flamers and screamers that were OP for a few months to get WAAC players who need to win so desperately to feel good at life to buy tons of them.

2 ten point melta guns killed a knight today , everyone really needs to calm down the hysterics .

2 pen rolls , 2 misses on the cover , a 4 and a 5 rolled on damage table , a 3 and a 4 rolled on the D3 Hull points

Initial hits 2 Hull Points , 4 hull points caused by the D3 rolls ,,,,,BOOM goes the knight top of turn 1

That's real world application


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and they can't contest objectives

That's pretty extreme luck. We were discussing this in the Sisters of Battle thread. You'd need an average of 6 melta shots into it's non-4++ flank from half range to bring that thing down (or 12 into its shield, or some stupid number if you're not getting that second armor pen die).

I am somewhat tempted to start painting my 42 melta gun Sisters of Battle army, but I think by the time I got that painted, there'd be some new flavor of the month.

Just use crytec with staffs you can bring them down and gauss works on them so i am not worried about them.

 jose kantor wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:
I ordered one today as soon as I found out any army can take one as an ally. Gonna make as disgusting a nurgle knight as I can come up with.

And this news came from? I was under the impression it was Imperial Allie only...

Oops, looks like he didn't read the memo.

Can't ally with chaos space marines or nurgle.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
How would these things do as a counter to most MC's?

Pretty good actually. Over at the Hive we are trying to see how to deal with them. Our usual "Hit it with an MC" tactics don't work as you always hit the front armor due to it being a walker. It is also really fast and hard for anything other than an FMC to catch. The other killer is it is I4. It hits before things like Fexes. So against 3 fexes it will probably get the charge. So that is a S10 HoW, 4 attacks with a D-weapon and then the Fexes get to hit. Then the Knight gets to Stomp. It takes at least 2 hits to kill one (more than likely 4-5) so things don't look good for the Fexes.

So here's a thought. In close combat a knight has 3 attacks at WS4 that will murder a model. Then D3 stomps. A small unit can be spaced enough (espcially removing after initial swings) that the stomps only hit one target each.

An MEQ unit that charged a knight could expect to lose 1.5 models to the chainsword and another 1 to the stomps. It feels like there's no good reason you can't just take a 10 man tac squad and keep that thing in place for 2 turns while you kill the rest of his army and/or set up to shoot it from all 4 sides. Granted, you could fail a morale test somewhere in there, but some sort of fearless IC and/or zealot can fix that problem. (Actually, I think Sisters of Battle's easy access to 25 pt. zealots might make me discount how hard this can be for other armies. Although, a regular sisters of battle squad will lose 2 to chainsword due to WS3 :()

Actually, come to think of it. You could take inquisitorial henchmen squads made up of 4pt dudes with a couple priests. You'd lose 2 to the sword, 2 to the stomps and tie up the knight for a turn and a half for about 70 points. (turn and a half is really bad though given that allows him to be free on his second turn!!)

I hope you bought meltabombs for those henchmen and tac marines. Can't charge a vehicle you can't hurt, and AV13 is immune to krak.

 Cadichan Support wrote:
Why not use tactical genius on it and give it a 12" scout move? Then just romp anything on the first turn.

It would be a 6" scout move, since it's a (Superheavy) walker.

Also they are only scoring if taken in a primary detachment (as in all knight army, 3+ of them).
An allied knight is NOT scoring.

Mavnas wrote:
A small unit can be spaced enough (espcially removing after initial swings) that the stomps only hit one target each.

It cannot, when you consolidate, it must either take you into B2B with an enemy, or as close as possible, so stomps are hitting about 3.

I posted in the 40K army lists but that forum is pretty much dead so I'll add here for conversation:

Atleast I don't see any weaknesses. It'll blow up Riptides and flyers and deathstars with ease, and nearly everything is scoring. Basically, if you want to play Knights, all you need to do in support is make sure flyers aren't a problem and you're as good as you can get.

-Knight Paladin, Warlord
-Knight Errant
-Knight Errant
-Lord Commissar
-Platoon Command Squad, Autocannon
-Infantry Squad, Autocannon
-Infantry Squad, Autocannon
-2 Sabre Defence Platforms, Lascannons
-2 Sabre Defence Platforms, Lascannons
-2 Sabre Defence Platforms, Lascannons
-Vendetta Gunship
-Skyshield Landing Pad

Total Points: 1850

I can't immediatly think of anything that can threaten both a standard super-heavy and 2 imperial knights in the same list. Thats 9 AV 14 HP and 12 AV 13 HP with a 4++ on a given facing for shooting. Enormously durable and extremely killy.

I'm not sure if you're serious. A Revenant Titan will have a field day with those due to its mobility and firepower, and all Warhound based lists will be at an advantage as well. Once Lords of War are allowed, you're better off spending points in Titans. The only exception is the counterpick of a super-heavy flyer to avoid the D blasts.

 Therion wrote:
I posted in the 40K army lists but that forum is pretty much dead so I'll add here for conversation:

Atleast I don't see any weaknesses. It'll blow up Riptides and flyers and deathstars with ease, and nearly everything is scoring. Basically, if you want to play Knights, all you need to do in support is make sure flyers aren't a problem and you're as good as you can get.

Spoiler:

-Knight Paladin, Warlord
-Knight Errant
-Knight Errant
-Lord Commissar
-Platoon Command Squad, Autocannon
-Infantry Squad, Autocannon
-Infantry Squad, Autocannon
-2 Sabre Defence Platforms, Lascannons
-2 Sabre Defence Platforms, Lascannons
-2 Sabre Defence Platforms, Lascannons
-Vendetta Gunship
-Skyshield Landing Pad

Total Points: 1850

I can't immediatly think of anything that can threaten both a standard super-heavy and 2 imperial knights in the same list. Thats 9 AV 14 HP and 12 AV 13 HP with a 4++ on a given facing for shooting. Enormously durable and extremely killy.

I'm not sure if you're serious. A Revenant Titan will have a field day with those due to its mobility and firepower, and all Warhound based lists will be at an advantage as well. Once Lords of War are allowed, you're better off spending points in Titans. The only exception is the counterpick of a super-heavy flyer to avoid the D blasts.

I have a question and your list gives me a good way to bring it up.
I'm probably going to be getting just 1 knight at first. I'm going to ally with IG.
What is the better choice for the ranged weapon? I feel it's a no brainer. In an IG list, I really don't need another BC.
Thoughts?

 Krellnus wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
A small unit can be spaced enough (espcially removing after initial swings) that the stomps only hit one target each.

It cannot, when you consolidate, it must either take you into B2B with an enemy, or as close as possible, so stomps are hitting about 3.

Ok... so clearly this works best with a ministorum priest to allow the 3+ to be rerollable (and carry a second set of melta bombs).

Would we say that 5 in a 2,000pt army list is a bit over kill? or even 4 in an 1850pt list?

 Therion wrote:

I'm not sure if you're serious. A Revenant Titan will have a field day with those due to its mobility and firepower, and all Warhound based lists will be at an advantage as well. Once Lords of War are allowed, you're better off spending points in Titans. The only exception is the counterpick of a super-heavy flyer to avoid the D blasts.

Edit : Wuesten pointed out I was being a confused tard.

To Alarmingrick : It's a choice between if you want longer range with more RNG damage, or a shorter range dependable gun. The Giant Melta will stand a good chance of penning most vehicles and doing good damage at AP 1, but the RFBC can be doing its business from the other end of the board and if you roll well you can potentially get more wounds/hull points. Oh, and I suppose it will depend if lots of Monstrous Creatures are big in your local meta. If they are, the RFBC is definitly the better choice for 2 shots compared to one (monstrous creatures being more durable than vehicles to melta attacks).

Also, reconsider what the Imperial Knight is for an imperial list. 2 Lemon Russ Battle Tanks cost 300points, for 2 Battle Cannon shots with 6 AV14 Hullpoints that can only move 6" a turn. An Imperial Knight Paladin is 375 for those two battlecannons, can move twice as fast, loses 1 AV on its front facing for a 4++ on a facing chosen during the enemy shooting phase, gains a D weapon and Stomp attacks. And can never be stunned, shaken, immobilized or lose its weapons. The Imperial Knight Paladin,in my opinion, completely invalidates the use of LRBT, as that it is a much more efficient use of points.

On another note, having no Imperial Armour books, I do not know the possible loadouts for a Rev Titan, nor point cost. How much does it cost? How much will it take out of a 2000point list? I'm assuming it should be close to the cost of a Shadowsword and 2 Knight Paladins.

The Eldar Revenant Titan is 900 pts and comes with 2x2 5'' blast D weapons able to kill two superheavies with 6 to 9 HP per turn - with a bit luck.

 wuestenfux wrote:

On another note, having no Imperial Armour books, I do not know the possible loadouts for a Rev Titan, nor point cost. How much does it cost? How much will it take out of a 2000point list? I'm assuming it should be close to the cost of a Shadowsword and 2 Knight Paladins.

The Eldar Revenant Titan is 900 pts and comes with 2x2 5'' blast D weapons able to kill two superheavies with 6 to 9 HP per turn - with a bit luck.

Oh, dammit. You know what, I was reading Revenent, Writing Revenant, and Thinking goddamn warhound. That is totally my fault on that. Yes, the Revenant titan is completely capable of ruining a Shadowsword and 2 IMperial Knight Paladins. Many Thanks Wuestenfux

 Spellbound wrote:
But they don't contest, because they're vehicles.

So if I'm a troops unit on an objective, and your knight is there too, then I'm holding it, but there's no contesting unit nearby, so I claim the objective.

You're scoring, but then there's a contesting unit nearby, so you can't claim it.

If they can hold an obj and are vehicles. Why don't you think they can contest also. Looks like the intent is to be able to bring an army of knights only if you want.

Johnnytorrance wrote:

 Spellbound wrote:
But they don't contest, because they're vehicles.

So if I'm a troops unit on an objective, and your knight is there too, then I'm holding it, but there's no contesting unit nearby, so I claim the objective.

You're scoring, but then there's a contesting unit nearby, so you can't claim it.

If they can hold an obj and are vehicles. Why don't you think they can contest also. Looks like the intent is to be able to bring an army of knights only if you want.

If it just says "Scoring" then he is correct.

It's like the "Big Guns Never Tire" mission. That makes Heavy support scoring.
It doesn't make them denial units as well. Most already are, but not vehicles.
So a Heavy Support Tank becomes a scoring unit, but not a denial unit (as vehicles are listed as non-denial units).

 kir44n wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

On another note, having no Imperial Armour books, I do not know the possible loadouts for a Rev Titan, nor point cost. How much does it cost? How much will it take out of a 2000point list? I'm assuming it should be close to the cost of a Shadowsword and 2 Knight Paladins.

The Eldar Revenant Titan is 900 pts and comes with 2x2 5'' blast D weapons able to kill two superheavies with 6 to 9 HP per turn - with a bit luck.

Oh, dammit. You know what, I was reading Revenent, Writing Revenant, and Thinking goddamn warhound. That is totally my fault on that. Yes, the Revenant titan is completely capable of ruining a Shadowsword and 2 IMperial Knight Paladins. Many Thanks Wuestenfux

You're welcome!

In our apoc games we figured that a 5'' template hardly misses a Baneblade even if it scatters since the model is so big. The same holds for almost all other superheavies bar the Trans. C'tan.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 kir44n wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

On another note, having no Imperial Armour books, I do not know the possible loadouts for a Rev Titan, nor point cost. How much does it cost? How much will it take out of a 2000point list? I'm assuming it should be close to the cost of a Shadowsword and 2 Knight Paladins.

The Eldar Revenant Titan is 900 pts and comes with 2x2 5'' blast D weapons able to kill two superheavies with 6 to 9 HP per turn - with a bit luck.

Oh, dammit. You know what, I was reading Revenent, Writing Revenant, and Thinking goddamn warhound. That is totally my fault on that. Yes, the Revenant titan is completely capable of ruining a Shadowsword and 2 IMperial Knight Paladins. Many Thanks Wuestenfux

You're welcome!

In our apoc games we figured that a 5'' template hardly misses a Baneblade even if it scatters since the model is so big. The same holds for almost all other superheavies bar the Trans. C'tan.

A few days ago I was playing at my club when I heard some people saying from the table over complaining that when the Knight exploded it took out a huge amount. I was a bit sceptical so I went over and checked the large blast over Knight and said "This is the range of the str D" and they were so shocked it was unreal. (they had been playing it wrong)

I the str D doesnt scatter it will barely clip models directly in front and behind the Knight. Any models attacking from the sides wont be touched.

While this is true Mythantor, that's because the Knight is so wide that it would be very difficult to have something actually assault the side armour of the Knight ^^

Assuming the blast doesn't scatter, the D explosion will mainly hurt vehicles and the few units in direct B2B in front of the knight (like a deathstar the knight charged).

Mind, if it does scatter (and theres a 66% chance of it doing so), all bets are off.

How easy is it to tarpit with affordable infantry that has Stubborn or Fearless?

Knights will eat high-cost, low-model count infantry, but if you're able to buy 21 models with two meltaguns, melta bombs, Fearless, and an Eviscerator for 340 points -- my quick math on a maxed out Sororitas Priest blob -- that seems like a hell of a counter. IG with Commissar or Orks with Mob Rule might do even better.

I fought with my stompa against 1 of these beasts.
1 turn of shooting from my stompa and it was gone. (deff arsenal and deth kannon for the win).

Bah! Imperial Knights don't bother me! I have an Avatar with Disarming Strike!

Problem is, the bigger the tar pit, the more damage the Stomp attack will do.
Pile in moves are required, and these will clump large units together considerably. It won't stay locked for long.

Good point.

EDIT: Talking crap.

Also: Is Codex:Imperial Knights really a US$30+ book with only two units, the Paladin and the Errant? I mean, ok, fluff and beautiful pics of cool models, sure, but.... only two units?

Or is there a real army in there somewhere?

 SisterSydney wrote:
Also: Is Codex:Imperial Knights really a US$30+ book with only two units, the Paladin and the Errant? I mean, ok, fluff and beautiful pics of cool models, sure, but.... only two units?

Or is there a real army in there somewhere?

Welcome to the new 40k!

 knas ser wrote:
Bah! Imperial Knights don't bother me! I have an Avatar with Disarming Strike!

Keeps the D weapon from being a threat, but you still have to contend with the stomp attacks (S6 AP3, which can do pretty sizable damage to the Avatar) and you also need to hope the Catastrophic Failure! once you defeat the knight scatters off in the distance somewhere so you don't eat the Strength D explosion.

Still, not a bad idea. Trading a 210-ish point unit to take out a 375 point unit, even if that unit you sack is an HQ, is a pretty decent trade I think.

@Sister Sydney: It's literally just the two units.

The fluff is really cool and all, and I actually really enjoyed the section about the Freeblades in particular, but that's not why we buy the rulebooks. As the OP said, it's a $41 book for about 3 pages worth of rules content.

[headdesk] You.... you realize that if download the free preview sample of the interactive version, you get the Paladin stats? For free? Which is 50% of the substantive content of the rulebook?

Or, feth, buy the issue of White Dwarf.

Kirby is a mind boggling individual.

I find it bizarre how mind-bogglingly stupid GW corporate is considering their fanbase is mostly middle-to-upper-class decently educated people. I don't want to say we're smart, but we're certainly not idiots.

Kirby?

Tom Kirby, chairman of Games Workshop. The company got a lot more money grubbing once he took full reigns.

 SRSFACE wrote:

 knas ser wrote:
Bah! Imperial Knights don't bother me! I have an Avatar with Disarming Strike!

Keeps the D weapon from being a threat, but you still have to contend with the stomp attacks (S6 AP3, which can do pretty sizable damage to the Avatar) and you also need to hope the Catastrophic Failure! once you defeat the knight scatters off in the distance somewhere so you don't eat the Strength D explosion.

Doesn't Disarming Strike require you to be in a Challenge?
Knights aren't charcters...

 grendel083 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:

 knas ser wrote:
Bah! Imperial Knights don't bother me! I have an Avatar with Disarming Strike!

Keeps the D weapon from being a threat, but you still have to contend with the stomp attacks (S6 AP3, which can do pretty sizable damage to the Avatar) and you also need to hope the Catastrophic Failure! once you defeat the knight scatters off in the distance somewhere so you don't eat the Strength D explosion.

Doesn't Disarming Strike require you to be in a Challenge?
Knights aren't charcters...

Yes. I was actually trying to be funny and be the thread's comedy idiot. Perhaps too subtle.

Disarming Strike does read "your opponent" but also requires it to take place in a challenge. Unless there's some clever way in which I can get a walker into a challenge, it's a no go.

Which is sad as it would be phenomenally awesome to see an avatar disabling an IK's D weapon and reducing it to a mere close combat weapon turn after turn.

So which ranged weapon do you guys think is best? I'm leaning towards the melta since I feel that you want to use the knight in an aggressive manner and be able to make use of the D chainsword. The changes in ordinance weapons in 6th have made me wary of the battle cannon on a LRBT and i favor other variants, am i letting this negative perception influence my descision making for the knight?

 TheLionOfTheForest wrote:
So which ranged weapon do you guys think is best? I'm leaning towards the melta since I feel that you want to use the knight in an aggressive manner and be able to make use of the D chainsword. The changes in ordinance weapons in 6th have made me wary of the battle cannon on a LRBT and i favor other variants, am i letting this negative perception influence my descision making for the knight?

TBH, I think it's going to depend on your local meta. the D CCW is going to kill any vehicle you attack (save a super heavy) so you're gonna be able to sue the melee weapon for tank popping, thus I think it'll depend. if your local meta is very tank heavy (perhaps one where a lotta people have kept to their tank heavy 5E lists) the Melta'll be great.

if however your local meta is mostly infantry with a scattering of vehicles, the Paladin is the better choice, as you can use the D CCW to crush the heavy targets, and then have a battlecanon and stubbers you can use to kill enemy infantry. if you do run against a reasonably vee heavy list the BC's not gonna be AS good, but it'll certinly be respectable

Paladin is probably better against most vehicles except AV 13-14. Two shots, re-rolling penetration and hitting up to 72 inches away are big advantages. Probably the Thermal Cannon only really does better in Melta Range - or if facing 2+ spam.

The battlecannon on the Lemon Russ Battle Tank is very different from how it operates on the Imperial Knight. The Leman Russ (for some damn reason) can only fire snap shots on everything else when it uses an ordnance weapon. The Imperial Knight, as a Super-Heavy Walker, is immune to this result, and can fire everything accordingly. It kind of makes sense too.

The Standard Imperial Guard Baneblade has a Demolisher Cannon (ordnance), in addition to its main Baneblade cannon, with several Heavy Bolters (and some optional lascannons). If the ordnance rules appplied, you could only fire the weaker demolisher cannon over the Baneblade cannon. It'd be kind of weird.

The virtue of being a Super-Heavy Walker, not just a regular walker are part of what makes the Imperial Knights such an efficient use of points.

guys, can we keep this to a knight tactics thread instead of "who can kill the big guy" thread? there are several already there for that ¬,¬

Anyways, I manage to play one Paladin in a 3v3 game against DE and first turn it manage to tank 9 dark lance shots from the eldar.

In return, it penned one raider twice and glanced another with it's stubber. It didn't do that much damage, however, because the Eldar had Nightfighting.

Next turn the DE rushed it with 5 witch squads, so I had to move it around a bit to avoid the charging raiders. when one got blown up, I placed two shots over them and scored 11 hits and 8 wounds! but, It turns out he was in 8" of a wytch that had defensive grenades (something I didn't know they had) and it turned their crater into a 4+ cover. only 2 died =( but it's heavy stubber took out a few more from another squad. It charged, but failed due to my eternal bad luck.

Last turn it got charged by 8 wytches and took 3 haywire grenades in the face, and my opponent had a massive amount of luck; he rolled three 6's in a row! (pen, damage, second explosions) and the knight died. killed all but one wytch and destroyed a raider and speeder in the explosion.

So in all, it took a lot of fire and dished it out, but due to the stars aligning for the DE it wasn't able to do much.

 Mr.Omega wrote:
http://natfka.blogspot.co.uk/2014/02/imperial-knight-rules-clarification.html

Holy cow they count as scoring, and that link takes a direct quote from GW's digital edition Facebook page.

via Jes Bickham (who is the editor of White Dwarf) on GW Digital Facebook
Some clarification on the rules we presented in White Dwarf today for some folks here: the Imperial Knights don't occupy any force organisation slots, they are not Lords of War, they are an army unto themselves. Something we forgot to say is that all Imperial Knights are scoring units, and if you're playing 3-6 as a primary detachment, pick one as your Warlord.

Not sure postings on facebook are valid rules entries, much like how when things were posted in white dwarf battle storiesin the past on multiple occasions that were not actual rules, or were playtest rules that did not make it to the codex.

Unless its in codex or posted as a official faq/errata, they aren't scoring.

It's a little ambiguous. Since they can be "an army unto themselves," it would be woefully stupid if you had an entire army with no scoring units.

Of course it's also a bit stupid to have an entire army with only one unit -- since the Paladin and the Errant would fit just fine in one unit entry with the different weapon load-outs as options -- but we're looooong past that point.

Unless its in codex or posted as a official faq/errata, they aren't scoring.

In the codex, they are scoring if taken as main detachment.

 JeffVimes wrote:

Unless its in codex or posted as a official faq/errata, they aren't scoring.

In the codex, they are scoring if taken as main detachment.

Thanks for that, figured it might be something along the lines of main detachment= scoring, other detachment = not scoring.

Which makes considerable sense.

From what the Codex says, it would appear they are scoring when they are the army unto themselves.. I don't think they are scoring when they are allied in, unless that is a part of the book that I missed. So you can ally some into your army but they wouldn't score.

So basically you could have Space Marine Primary, Imperial Guard Allied, with Inquisition AND Imperial Knight all legally... since it would seem Imperial Knights are just as the Inquisition when allying them in. Wow, that's a lot of iPad space for one army... Just silly enough to try when the new IG book comes out I would think.

 grendel083 wrote:

 SRSFACE wrote:

 knas ser wrote:
Bah! Imperial Knights don't bother me! I have an Avatar with Disarming Strike!

Keeps the D weapon from being a threat, but you still have to contend with the stomp attacks (S6 AP3, which can do pretty sizable damage to the Avatar) and you also need to hope the Catastrophic Failure! once you defeat the knight scatters off in the distance somewhere so you don't eat the Strength D explosion.

Doesn't Disarming Strike require you to be in a Challenge?
Knights aren't charcters...

Oh bother, you're right. Forgot about that part.

Don't think the Avatar would do all that well after all then. You'd have to Smash attack for S10 and rerolls on armor penetration, and at best you'd only be getting 4 glances/pens. You'd need one of the pens to roll a further 6. Bother.

 Matt1785 wrote:
From what the Codex says, it would appear they are scoring when they are the army unto themselves.. I don't think they are scoring when they are allied in, unless that is a part of the book that I missed. So you can ally some into your army but they wouldn't score.

So basically you could have Space Marine Primary, Imperial Guard Allied, with Inquisition AND Imperial Knight all legally... since it would seem Imperial Knights are just as the Inquisition when allying them in. Wow, that's a lot of iPad space for one army... Just silly enough to try when the new IG book comes out I would think.

And Legion of the Damned. All in one army.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Kirby is a mind boggling individual.

I find it bizarre how mind-bogglingly stupid GW corporate is considering their fanbase is mostly middle-to-upper-class decently educated people. I don't want to say we're smart, but we're certainly not idiots.

Middle to upper class has no relevance here. Suggestion is inherent that working class people ARE idiots.

Of curse there are answers to IKs but if you start building lists to counter them what happens when you face an entirely different top tier list? How many TAC lists ha enough answers to take out three knights is the real question. I can put together a pretty strong 1750 list without much effort ...

Primary
Knight Errant 370
Knight Paladin 375
Knight Paladin 375

Stormwing Dataslate
Storm Raven; TL Multi-melta; TL Assault Cannon 200
Storm Talon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher 125
Storm Talon; Skyhammer Missile Launcher 125

Inquisition Detachment
Inquisitor; Force Sword; Mastery Lvl 1; 3 Servo-skulls 64
3 Acolytes, Bolt Guns 15
Valkyrie Gunship 100

So how many lists bring answers for 4 flyers and 3 knights? Not many. The problem is not just the Knights but what you can bering to the table with the Knights.

That's very nasty. But it has a whopping four infantry models (counting the Inquisitor). Yes, as a primary detachment your Knights can take objectives -- well, I think two of them can; doesn't one have to be the Warlord instead? But I suspect a list with lots of low- to medium-priced infantry is going to provide too many targets to kill before they melta to death the Knights that have to move forward to seize objectives. Or they may outflank/scout/deep strike infantry with anti-armor weapons (e.g. Sororitas Dominions) next to your Knights on turn one.

Now, while anti-armor is something most any list should have, anti-air is trickier. Most lists won't bring nearly enough Skyfire for this kind of threat. On the other hand every weapon they have which can't penetrate the Knights might as well fire snapshots into the sky every turn until they hit something. Quantity has a quality all its own.

Firing crap guns into the air a quality fliers is a lot llike this:



I wouldn't bank on that for defending my key targets from airstrikes. Bonus points if you recognize the image.

Baghdad 2003 or 1991? Also gotta remember that the Iraqis badly shot up an Apache attack helicopter unit that was flying over the Karbala Gap in 2003, using the pure "pray and spray" method. 40K fliers operate much more like helicopters than fighter jets, even the fliers with the ludicrously named "supersonic"rule -- which realistically would take them across the table before you could blink.

The Iraqis brought down a few aircraft between the two wars.

If you have something that might hurt the flyer but won't hurt anything else, no harm in throwing a few shots skywards. I've brought down Night Scythes with Pulse Rifles before.

As GW seems to be in the habit of throwing "whatever knights" into various armies that are both XBAWKS HUEG and become dominating features in said armies, I believe that sooner or later, we will have a knight-knight formed out of whatever knights voltronning together into the newest must buy unit.

 Kain wrote:
As GW seems to be in the habit of throwing "whatever knights" into various armies that are both XBAWKS HUEG and become dominating features in said armies, I believe that sooner or later, we will have a knight-knight formed out of whatever knights voltronning together into the newest must buy unit.

DON'T GIVE THEM IDEAS:
Anyway here is my personal strategy since I have become more focussed on smaller games due to time constraints:

Step one draw fire away from the main force with big guns.
Step two bring the Infantry with heavy hitting stuff around back the titan.
Step 3 Titan is now in a position where he must choose who to brave the attack against.

Haven't tested it yet but I honestly don't know what else I will do.

 Bronzefists42 wrote:

 Kain wrote:
As GW seems to be in the habit of throwing "whatever knights" into various armies that are both XBAWKS HUEG and become dominating features in said armies, I believe that sooner or later, we will have a knight-knight formed out of whatever knights voltronning together into the newest must buy unit.

DON'T GIVE THEM IDEAS:
Anyway here is my personal strategy since I have become more focussed on smaller games due to time constraints:

Step one draw fire away from the main force with big guns.
Step two bring the Infantry with heavy hitting stuff around back the titan.
Step 3 Titan is now in a position where he must choose who to brave the attack against.

Haven't tested it yet but I honestly don't know what else I will do.

We only need two more units to make a proper voltron.

Ahahahahahahahaaa!!!

I've been thinking on allying in some Grey Knights to "escort" my Imperial Knight primary, using Interceptors to lead, strikes to trail, and Warp Quake to deny podding melta. Add in a couple of TDA OM Inqs with Psycannons and Prescience, and the PAGK can give some decent AA, or their Knightly charge can be even more killy.

Just a thought.

SJ

On the model of "Taudar," we can call this build "Knight Knight."

Seriously, though, how does warp quake work?

I think knights will be a lot of fun, I just read the codex last knight and nothing really seems broken. The d-weapon and stomps are not really that bad. We have a lot of 1/6 really good things in the game, and nothing stopping you from LOSing.

Also they are not cheap and per point dont offer a lot of firepower. It will be interesting to see if they are allowed in tournaments because I think that would really help switch up the meta. While not being too much. The non-deathstar lists I think will have a much easier time with them.

But anyway I am thinking 1-2 with a bubble wrap of IG to protect from melta/charging FMC while they advance before they charge out would be interesting.

 SisterSydney wrote:
On the model of "Taudar," we can call this build "Knight Knight."

Seriously, though, how does warp quake work?

Warp Quake us a psychic power that causing any enemy unit that deep strikes within 12" of the unit to automatically mishap. Both Grey Knight Strike Squads and Grey Knight Interceptor Squads have Warp Quake as unit abilities, as well as the Combat Squad special rule. The tactic is to Combat Squad the Interceptors and Strikers, and position the smaller 5man units to cover the Knights' vulnerable facings by creating a 25" x 35" "No DS Zone" where ever each squad is placed. With a few Inquisitors added in to provide Skulls, you can effectively deny your side of the table from your opponent, protecting your Knights from being taken out in one turn due to scouting/deep striking Tank Hunters.

SJ

Well, do you really need four flyers? I guess not. I'd bring some ground support for your Knights, say Coteaz with some henchmen in psybacks.

Yes, infantry is good. Need infantry.

To jeffersonian000: Thanks, got it. Neat power. Presumably originally envisioned as stopping daemons from warping in behind you, but you could fluff it as interfering with normal troops' deep strike direction-finding as well.

SisterSydney wrote:On the model of "Taudar," we can call this build "Knight Knight."

Seriously, though, how does warp quake work?

Or you could call it Grey Knights...oh.


For IK allies there isn't really much in the way of list planning necessary. They are decent long range fire support and will likely not be killed if they stick to that though honestly they are a bit too expensive to just stay back and shoot (though in some lists they can provide great counter charge abilities). They are much more tactical and interesting when they move forward. There are several key things you need to think about when playing an IK.

-Ranged damage wise the IK is a wierd duck. The melta weapon is good but most of the most threatening vehicle these days (SH, serpent, flyer, venom) cannot be hit (flyer), don't care about a single explodes result (serpent and SH), or don't care about a single dead vehicle for a 370 pts unit's shooting. The battle cannon is pretty decent at stripping HP and against troops but it allows cover saves and is a blast weapon again. This means the BC is actually not that dangerous of a weapon against most infantry as they will be spaced out and in cover against most players. Still it is a nice weapon and makes one of the hardest counters to the knights (missile sides) need to get a tanking character for it.
-In melee the IK is great against vehicles and MC. Anything that is expensive and has great defensive stats to keep it alive will die easily to an IK. The IK is also pretty good against hordes that cannot simply put the entire unit into b2b due to the S6AP4 stomp attacks and the pile in moves causing the unit to cluster. Against units between these two categories the IK is actually pretty bad. A good example is a SM TAC squad which will loose 2-3 models an assault phase to an IK. This leaves a fair chunk of units which can charge or get charged by an IK and not be overly concerned. Still combined with the shooting the IK is a nice utility unit and has a place in many lists.
-They have move through cover and are a walker. This means that where you deploy the IK will have a huge impact on what it can accomplish. It only gets cover from being 25%+ obscured (not from area terrain) so walking through terrain drops your movement to 3d6 take highest (6" max) instead of your 12" movement. Your base is so big that most boards will feel cluttered to an IK. This creates an interesting dilemma as many of the traditionally good melee units coming out of transport (especially the armour bane independent character ones) can catch up to you fairly easily if you are not careful about terrain and they can kill you very reliably at that point.
-Suicide; IK die in a big blast with a D Str center (5" center). This can be brutal but is highly inconsistent as there is no guarantees that the blast will scatter the way you want or even scatter far enough off the IK to be useful. Still keep it in mind and it can be a powerful tool. The outer rings are great to clear out hordes.

If you combine all of these you get a dynamic unit which will change it's play style depending on the opponent. Against some opponents you will be better served with sitting back and shooting for a couple of turns until your resources can deal with the major threats to the IK who can then move forward. Alternatively it may be worth rushing the IK(s) in and pushing the opponent out of position. Additionally the stubbers are useful for forcing grounding checks. Just keep in mind that the IK are never contesting units and so if you put too many points in them you can quickly loose games just to too many scoring units being on objectives.

For IK primary I think there are several major concerns to be addressed which you will need allies to do so. First though the big difference are; the IK are scoring but still don't contest (so necrons can still drop warrior on an objective and will not only contest you but will still score), the minimum buy in for a IK primary is 1100+ pts. This is a lot of most armies and means that 1000 pts will never see an IK primary army. Even at 1500 pts fitting decent allies will be difficult, and finally the FOC allies are pretty restrictive for some armies as the best stuff tends to cluster in FA or HS.

1) Last minute mobile scoring/contesting. The IK score but do not contest so you need some way of eliminating these fast scoring units and/or bubble wrapping objectives. IK are pretty miserable at either of these. IG artillery, SM TFC, IG vulture, SM bikers, etc. are all pretty great at this. Even Inquisition valks w/ 3x flamer henchmen can be very useful for this as at least they contest and score.

2) AA is essentially non existent in the IK army. The best AA is going to be fortifications, IG allies (the best, no question), and possibly SM allies (red hunters are pretty good and the hunter is pretty awesome).

3) Buffer units. There are a number of units that you seriously don't want an IK getting near but will be highly resilient to the IK shooting. Buffmander missile sides will annihilate any IK within 32" within a single turn, ion shield or no, and firedragons in a serpent are almost guaranteed a kill and can be protect by the serpent giving cover or a proper tanking character jumping over to protect them. DS melta, etc. are all things you don't want to have land next to your IK and with good terrain usage and play will cut through an IK army like butter. This is why I thing some support units on the ground will be absolutely necessary whether strike squads or IG platoons. These can also help with the scoring/contesting issues.

4) IK are utterly countered by revenants and warhounds. If you see one of them you had better reserve the IKs and have brought something else to deal with it.

Also keep in mind that the IK has to declare all shooting targets at the beginning. This means grounding a DP does not allow you to magically switch your battle cannons target. Though you can charge it.

Despite being good against MCs many of the nastiest CC MCs have high Init and can charge you with enough of them to assure a kill. In this situation you either need to block some of the charges with a cheap unit or set up counter charges with your other IKs. However sacrificing the 1 or 2 MC or FMC to kill an IK is a great trade for most armies. The only FMC that comes close to an IK price is Be'Lakor at 350 pts. For example a canny CD player could DS a unit of pink horrors (run to spread out) between 2 IK, charge one with Be'Lakor + DP (charge the IK sides BTW so a hit on the SH explodes doesn't get a D str against you) and be assured of a kill then let you sit there frustrated with only a spread out pink horror unit to charge. Be aware and plan for it.

Hopefully that helps someone. Sorry for the wall of text.

Played another game with a knight, this time Apoc. He ended up getting trapped behind a wall of tanks without really contributing to the battle because his movements were always limited. he Did end up blasting at least two squads of warwalkers away with his battle cannon and picked out two plague marines (how can you make 4/6 feel no pain rolls?!)


After the game I decided to roll him out against a 20 man invisible plague marine squad with 4 sorcerers with meltabombs and chainfists... not the best idea.

OK. I'd like to re-ignite this thread. I've just decided to run a knight in my wolves list. The reason why I think this is worth re-visiting is because they were strong in 6th, but I think they're perhaps stronger in 7th. Although the changes to the vehicle damage chart don't really have any affect, the nerf to smash alone sees combat being a much smaller risk for them, especially when taking on things like daemon Princes. In fact I think winged monstrous creatures in general are a much smaller threat as they now have to land the turn before.

So what do people think? Are they as good as before? Or even tougher to drop now?

They are still good! they die to grav weapons though through shinanegans, but still are great to play and to use. I cheer every time mine lives through the game, and his kill count continues to rise.


(also I forgot I even made this thread!)

I wish Chaos would already get the Gallant, Crusader and warden versions of knights so I can have 5 spawns provide them a melee screen and keel up with 12" move.

Gallant with spawns would be a great match up.

Please check the date of the last post, and don't commit thread necromancy. 'Tis a dark art best left untouched.