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 Elgrun wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
According to the WD editor's post (on the last page), all Knights are scoring, don't take up a FOC slot and are not Lords of War.

Might make a poll on whether people think this is responsible rule writing, yes or no?

It is definitely not responsible rules writing. They are over the top broken in every way. Even if you kill one your army will eat a 5" D blast.

Hopefully it's just like the past WD flamers and screamers that were OP for a few months to get WAAC players who need to win so desperately to feel good at life to buy tons of them.

The most abusive list I can think of is running an Imperial Guard Baneblade Variant (a good number clock in under 500 points), 2 Imperial Knight Paladins as allies, and flesh out the rest of the points (which is easy when playing IG).

In a 2000point list, one could take
A barebones CCS 50
PCS+2 melta 50
Infantry Squad x4 200
PCS+2 melta 50
Infantry Squad x4 200
PCS+1 Flam+1 melta 45
Infantry Squad x3 150

ShadowSword + 1 pair of sponsons 505 points

2 Allied Imperial Knight Paladins 750 points

The 2 Knight Paladins can seriously threaten any MEQ's or horde units, in addition to vehicles and monstrous creatures. The Shadowsword can sit in the backfield and destroy anything with impunity, whiles you have enough scoring troops to secure backfield objectives

I can't immediatly think of anything that can threaten both a standard super-heavy and 2 imperial knights in the same list. Thats 9 AV 14 HP and 12 AV 13 HP with a 4++ on a given facing for shooting. Enormously durable and extremely killy.

 kir44n wrote:
Enormously durable and extremely silly.

Fixed that one for you.

 herpguy wrote:

 Elgrun wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
According to the WD editor's post (on the last page), all Knights are scoring, don't take up a FOC slot and are not Lords of War.

Might make a poll on whether people think this is responsible rule writing, yes or no?

It is definitely not responsible rules writing. They are over the top broken in every way. Even if you kill one your army will eat a 5" D blast.

Hopefully it's just like the past WD flamers and screamers that were OP for a few months to get WAAC players who need to win so desperately to feel good at life to buy tons of them.

i hope your right, cause i like the model (won't buy it myself but want to see it on the tables) but i don't want my orks to get raped by some knights every game i play.

Why not use tactical genius on it and give it a 12" scout move? Then just romp anything on the first turn.

 Cadichan Support wrote:
Why not use tactical genius on it and give it a 12" scout move? Then just romp anything on the first turn.

Lol the image of a knight hiding behind a tree comes to mind. Personally I will be using my knight as a support for my mechvets mors than likely running down the sides of the table as a errant. And for when I want to go blob mixing the paladin with some fortifications seems a aweasome idea and a great assault deterrent.

How would these things do as a counter to most MC's?

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
How would these things do as a counter to most MC's?

I think assault is their strongpoint with the Str D chainsword. With the potential to do up to 12 wounds on a single hit, that is pretty nasty.

Only thing is I believe the 4++ is only for shooting. So the MC can probably pen the AV13 pretty easily. The good news is the Knight cant be exploded without stripping every hull point away.

Chances are unless the Knight is seriously wounded it would win, I would imagine.

 herpguy wrote:

 Elgrun wrote:

 Paradigm wrote:
According to the WD editor's post (on the last page), all Knights are scoring, don't take up a FOC slot and are not Lords of War.

Might make a poll on whether people think this is responsible rule writing, yes or no?

It is definitely not responsible rules writing. They are over the top broken in every way. Even if you kill one your army will eat a 5" D blast.

Hopefully it's just like the past WD flamers and screamers that were OP for a few months to get WAAC players who need to win so desperately to feel good at life to buy tons of them.

2 ten point melta guns killed a knight today , everyone really needs to calm down the hysterics .

2 pen rolls , 2 misses on the cover , a 4 and a 5 rolled on damage table , a 3 and a 4 rolled on the D3 Hull points

Initial hits 2 Hull Points , 4 hull points caused by the D3 rolls ,,,,,BOOM goes the knight top of turn 1

That's real world application


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and they can't contest objectives

That's pretty extreme luck. We were discussing this in the Sisters of Battle thread. You'd need an average of 6 melta shots into it's non-4++ flank from half range to bring that thing down (or 12 into its shield, or some stupid number if you're not getting that second armor pen die).

I am somewhat tempted to start painting my 42 melta gun Sisters of Battle army, but I think by the time I got that painted, there'd be some new flavor of the month.

Just use crytec with staffs you can bring them down and gauss works on them so i am not worried about them.

 jose kantor wrote:

sand.zzz wrote:
I ordered one today as soon as I found out any army can take one as an ally. Gonna make as disgusting a nurgle knight as I can come up with.

And this news came from? I was under the impression it was Imperial Allie only...

Oops, looks like he didn't read the memo.

Can't ally with chaos space marines or nurgle.

 Tiger9gamer wrote:
How would these things do as a counter to most MC's?

Pretty good actually. Over at the Hive we are trying to see how to deal with them. Our usual "Hit it with an MC" tactics don't work as you always hit the front armor due to it being a walker. It is also really fast and hard for anything other than an FMC to catch. The other killer is it is I4. It hits before things like Fexes. So against 3 fexes it will probably get the charge. So that is a S10 HoW, 4 attacks with a D-weapon and then the Fexes get to hit. Then the Knight gets to Stomp. It takes at least 2 hits to kill one (more than likely 4-5) so things don't look good for the Fexes.

So here's a thought. In close combat a knight has 3 attacks at WS4 that will murder a model. Then D3 stomps. A small unit can be spaced enough (espcially removing after initial swings) that the stomps only hit one target each.

An MEQ unit that charged a knight could expect to lose 1.5 models to the chainsword and another 1 to the stomps. It feels like there's no good reason you can't just take a 10 man tac squad and keep that thing in place for 2 turns while you kill the rest of his army and/or set up to shoot it from all 4 sides. Granted, you could fail a morale test somewhere in there, but some sort of fearless IC and/or zealot can fix that problem. (Actually, I think Sisters of Battle's easy access to 25 pt. zealots might make me discount how hard this can be for other armies. Although, a regular sisters of battle squad will lose 2 to chainsword due to WS3 :()

Actually, come to think of it. You could take inquisitorial henchmen squads made up of 4pt dudes with a couple priests. You'd lose 2 to the sword, 2 to the stomps and tie up the knight for a turn and a half for about 70 points. (turn and a half is really bad though given that allows him to be free on his second turn!!)

I hope you bought meltabombs for those henchmen and tac marines. Can't charge a vehicle you can't hurt, and AV13 is immune to krak.

 Cadichan Support wrote:
Why not use tactical genius on it and give it a 12" scout move? Then just romp anything on the first turn.

It would be a 6" scout move, since it's a (Superheavy) walker.

Also they are only scoring if taken in a primary detachment (as in all knight army, 3+ of them).
An allied knight is NOT scoring.

Mavnas wrote:
A small unit can be spaced enough (espcially removing after initial swings) that the stomps only hit one target each.

It cannot, when you consolidate, it must either take you into B2B with an enemy, or as close as possible, so stomps are hitting about 3.

I posted in the 40K army lists but that forum is pretty much dead so I'll add here for conversation:

Atleast I don't see any weaknesses. It'll blow up Riptides and flyers and deathstars with ease, and nearly everything is scoring. Basically, if you want to play Knights, all you need to do in support is make sure flyers aren't a problem and you're as good as you can get.

-Knight Paladin, Warlord
-Knight Errant
-Knight Errant
-Lord Commissar
-Platoon Command Squad, Autocannon
-Infantry Squad, Autocannon
-Infantry Squad, Autocannon
-2 Sabre Defence Platforms, Lascannons
-2 Sabre Defence Platforms, Lascannons
-2 Sabre Defence Platforms, Lascannons
-Vendetta Gunship
-Skyshield Landing Pad

Total Points: 1850

I can't immediatly think of anything that can threaten both a standard super-heavy and 2 imperial knights in the same list. Thats 9 AV 14 HP and 12 AV 13 HP with a 4++ on a given facing for shooting. Enormously durable and extremely killy.

I'm not sure if you're serious. A Revenant Titan will have a field day with those due to its mobility and firepower, and all Warhound based lists will be at an advantage as well. Once Lords of War are allowed, you're better off spending points in Titans. The only exception is the counterpick of a super-heavy flyer to avoid the D blasts.

 Therion wrote:
I posted in the 40K army lists but that forum is pretty much dead so I'll add here for conversation:

Atleast I don't see any weaknesses. It'll blow up Riptides and flyers and deathstars with ease, and nearly everything is scoring. Basically, if you want to play Knights, all you need to do in support is make sure flyers aren't a problem and you're as good as you can get.

Spoiler:

-Knight Paladin, Warlord
-Knight Errant
-Knight Errant
-Lord Commissar
-Platoon Command Squad, Autocannon
-Infantry Squad, Autocannon
-Infantry Squad, Autocannon
-2 Sabre Defence Platforms, Lascannons
-2 Sabre Defence Platforms, Lascannons
-2 Sabre Defence Platforms, Lascannons
-Vendetta Gunship
-Skyshield Landing Pad

Total Points: 1850

I can't immediatly think of anything that can threaten both a standard super-heavy and 2 imperial knights in the same list. Thats 9 AV 14 HP and 12 AV 13 HP with a 4++ on a given facing for shooting. Enormously durable and extremely killy.

I'm not sure if you're serious. A Revenant Titan will have a field day with those due to its mobility and firepower, and all Warhound based lists will be at an advantage as well. Once Lords of War are allowed, you're better off spending points in Titans. The only exception is the counterpick of a super-heavy flyer to avoid the D blasts.

I have a question and your list gives me a good way to bring it up.
I'm probably going to be getting just 1 knight at first. I'm going to ally with IG.
What is the better choice for the ranged weapon? I feel it's a no brainer. In an IG list, I really don't need another BC.
Thoughts?

 Krellnus wrote:

Mavnas wrote:
A small unit can be spaced enough (espcially removing after initial swings) that the stomps only hit one target each.

It cannot, when you consolidate, it must either take you into B2B with an enemy, or as close as possible, so stomps are hitting about 3.

Ok... so clearly this works best with a ministorum priest to allow the 3+ to be rerollable (and carry a second set of melta bombs).

Would we say that 5 in a 2,000pt army list is a bit over kill? or even 4 in an 1850pt list?

 Therion wrote:

I'm not sure if you're serious. A Revenant Titan will have a field day with those due to its mobility and firepower, and all Warhound based lists will be at an advantage as well. Once Lords of War are allowed, you're better off spending points in Titans. The only exception is the counterpick of a super-heavy flyer to avoid the D blasts.

Edit : Wuesten pointed out I was being a confused tard.

To Alarmingrick : It's a choice between if you want longer range with more RNG damage, or a shorter range dependable gun. The Giant Melta will stand a good chance of penning most vehicles and doing good damage at AP 1, but the RFBC can be doing its business from the other end of the board and if you roll well you can potentially get more wounds/hull points. Oh, and I suppose it will depend if lots of Monstrous Creatures are big in your local meta. If they are, the RFBC is definitly the better choice for 2 shots compared to one (monstrous creatures being more durable than vehicles to melta attacks).

Also, reconsider what the Imperial Knight is for an imperial list. 2 Lemon Russ Battle Tanks cost 300points, for 2 Battle Cannon shots with 6 AV14 Hullpoints that can only move 6" a turn. An Imperial Knight Paladin is 375 for those two battlecannons, can move twice as fast, loses 1 AV on its front facing for a 4++ on a facing chosen during the enemy shooting phase, gains a D weapon and Stomp attacks. And can never be stunned, shaken, immobilized or lose its weapons. The Imperial Knight Paladin,in my opinion, completely invalidates the use of LRBT, as that it is a much more efficient use of points.

On another note, having no Imperial Armour books, I do not know the possible loadouts for a Rev Titan, nor point cost. How much does it cost? How much will it take out of a 2000point list? I'm assuming it should be close to the cost of a Shadowsword and 2 Knight Paladins.

The Eldar Revenant Titan is 900 pts and comes with 2x2 5'' blast D weapons able to kill two superheavies with 6 to 9 HP per turn - with a bit luck.

 wuestenfux wrote:

On another note, having no Imperial Armour books, I do not know the possible loadouts for a Rev Titan, nor point cost. How much does it cost? How much will it take out of a 2000point list? I'm assuming it should be close to the cost of a Shadowsword and 2 Knight Paladins.

The Eldar Revenant Titan is 900 pts and comes with 2x2 5'' blast D weapons able to kill two superheavies with 6 to 9 HP per turn - with a bit luck.

Oh, dammit. You know what, I was reading Revenent, Writing Revenant, and Thinking goddamn warhound. That is totally my fault on that. Yes, the Revenant titan is completely capable of ruining a Shadowsword and 2 IMperial Knight Paladins. Many Thanks Wuestenfux

 Spellbound wrote:
But they don't contest, because they're vehicles.

So if I'm a troops unit on an objective, and your knight is there too, then I'm holding it, but there's no contesting unit nearby, so I claim the objective.

You're scoring, but then there's a contesting unit nearby, so you can't claim it.

If they can hold an obj and are vehicles. Why don't you think they can contest also. Looks like the intent is to be able to bring an army of knights only if you want.

Johnnytorrance wrote:

 Spellbound wrote:
But they don't contest, because they're vehicles.

So if I'm a troops unit on an objective, and your knight is there too, then I'm holding it, but there's no contesting unit nearby, so I claim the objective.

You're scoring, but then there's a contesting unit nearby, so you can't claim it.

If they can hold an obj and are vehicles. Why don't you think they can contest also. Looks like the intent is to be able to bring an army of knights only if you want.

If it just says "Scoring" then he is correct.

It's like the "Big Guns Never Tire" mission. That makes Heavy support scoring.
It doesn't make them denial units as well. Most already are, but not vehicles.
So a Heavy Support Tank becomes a scoring unit, but not a denial unit (as vehicles are listed as non-denial units).

 kir44n wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

On another note, having no Imperial Armour books, I do not know the possible loadouts for a Rev Titan, nor point cost. How much does it cost? How much will it take out of a 2000point list? I'm assuming it should be close to the cost of a Shadowsword and 2 Knight Paladins.

The Eldar Revenant Titan is 900 pts and comes with 2x2 5'' blast D weapons able to kill two superheavies with 6 to 9 HP per turn - with a bit luck.

Oh, dammit. You know what, I was reading Revenent, Writing Revenant, and Thinking goddamn warhound. That is totally my fault on that. Yes, the Revenant titan is completely capable of ruining a Shadowsword and 2 IMperial Knight Paladins. Many Thanks Wuestenfux

You're welcome!

In our apoc games we figured that a 5'' template hardly misses a Baneblade even if it scatters since the model is so big. The same holds for almost all other superheavies bar the Trans. C'tan.

 wuestenfux wrote:

 kir44n wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:

On another note, having no Imperial Armour books, I do not know the possible loadouts for a Rev Titan, nor point cost. How much does it cost? How much will it take out of a 2000point list? I'm assuming it should be close to the cost of a Shadowsword and 2 Knight Paladins.

The Eldar Revenant Titan is 900 pts and comes with 2x2 5'' blast D weapons able to kill two superheavies with 6 to 9 HP per turn - with a bit luck.

Oh, dammit. You know what, I was reading Revenent, Writing Revenant, and Thinking goddamn warhound. That is totally my fault on that. Yes, the Revenant titan is completely capable of ruining a Shadowsword and 2 IMperial Knight Paladins. Many Thanks Wuestenfux

You're welcome!

In our apoc games we figured that a 5'' template hardly misses a Baneblade even if it scatters since the model is so big. The same holds for almost all other superheavies bar the Trans. C'tan.

A few days ago I was playing at my club when I heard some people saying from the table over complaining that when the Knight exploded it took out a huge amount. I was a bit sceptical so I went over and checked the large blast over Knight and said "This is the range of the str D" and they were so shocked it was unreal. (they had been playing it wrong)

I the str D doesnt scatter it will barely clip models directly in front and behind the Knight. Any models attacking from the sides wont be touched.

While this is true Mythantor, that's because the Knight is so wide that it would be very difficult to have something actually assault the side armour of the Knight ^^

Assuming the blast doesn't scatter, the D explosion will mainly hurt vehicles and the few units in direct B2B in front of the knight (like a deathstar the knight charged).

Mind, if it does scatter (and theres a 66% chance of it doing so), all bets are off.

How easy is it to tarpit with affordable infantry that has Stubborn or Fearless?

Knights will eat high-cost, low-model count infantry, but if you're able to buy 21 models with two meltaguns, melta bombs, Fearless, and an Eviscerator for 340 points -- my quick math on a maxed out Sororitas Priest blob -- that seems like a hell of a counter. IG with Commissar or Orks with Mob Rule might do even better.