I just finished the incredible story of the HH book The Thousand Sons, and I was really moved by the burning of Prospero.
Spoiler:
Magnus finally realizes his true identity as a puppet of Tzeentch himself, one of the creators of the universe. He decides he'd rather die with his legion than to become a true traitor and to continue to play to Tzeentch's tune.
But he actually saves some of his legion and most importantly himself. He destroyed all the mirrors so its not like last second Tzeentch convinced him. This was a choice he made himself. Even though he knew the flesh change protection was over and his legion was going to start to slowly die in horrible ways, he still saved them.
In other words, he says hes not going to fight and hes going to die, but then he fights Leman Russ and then escapes with over 1200 of his sons and ascends to daemonhood. Somewhat contradictory. What gives?
Secondly, I can't decide who I respect more. Magnus for refusing to be a puppet and letting himself and his legion and legend be ruined and killed, or Ahriman for refusing to give in to death or being a puppet, no matter how futile his efforts seem. Are both of these characters admirable in your opinion, and if so, which one is more so? Love to hear your thoughts, the book was great.
I think it was just the full realisation of seeing the savage ferocity that the Wolves were using against his sons and his World. Personally I think his original intention was less about dying rather than turn to Chaos, and more about allowing the Wolves to win so that the Emperor would not lose another Loyal Legion in the coming fight against Horus. I actually think that his plan was stupid. Magnus should have left his Orbital defenses in places, to present a real fight. Then negotiated with Russ and agreed to go back to Terra. Once the Wolves were unleashed on Prospero, it was too late for words. Or better still, he should have mounted up the entire Legion after his failed attempt at warning the Emperor and made full speed for Terra.
As to your second question, I have far more respect for Ahrihman because he stuck to his principles throughout. He saw how the trial at Nikea was going to be a farce, that the Imperium was not as enlightened as it claimed, and did what he had to save his Legion. You cannot blame him for over ruling his Primarch, when Magnus' last command saw their home world razed and most of the Legion dead. Ahriman took the Pragmatic approach, he sacrificed many to save the few, knowing it was a choice between that and the death of the Legion. The fact that he still leads them 10k years into the future shows the measure of his success, seeing as Prospero should have been the graveyard for the Thousand Sons.
Magnus was an arrogant, self-centred, whiny moron.
I don't like him after reading A Thousand Sons. At all. He basically said, "Oops! My bad!" then went to cry in a corner and wait for the world to go away, "Oh, woe is me, I'm a bad person, I deserve to die... and so do all of my people... and everyone I've ever sworn to protect or claimed to love... because I deserve to watch them die as penance for what I've done..."
It's impossible to respect someone like that. What Magnus should have done is met Russ at the edge of the system and turned himself in.
No, actually. What Magnus really should have done is assumed that the Emperor had a fething clue when he said "Don't touch this stuff."
Of course, the Emperor should never have bowed to popular opinion and told Magnus to stop in the first place. If Nikea hadn't told Magnus to stop using his powers completely and give up his entire purpose for existing, he would have never attempted to carry the message psychically himself in the first place, since he only did that to prove that his powers were useful and safe.
Ahriman I can respect. Ahriman did every damn thing he could to protect the Prosperine, and he didn't even grow up there. Ahriman knew his job. Ahriman respected his commanders until they proved that they were not worth of respect. Ahriman tried to bring enlightenment and understanding to those who sought it out.
The only thing Ahriman is guilty of is failing to realise Wyrdmake was a two-faced turtle egg. Even the Rubric was at least an owned and concious decision to at least try to save what he could.
Would Magnus turning himself in stop the Wolves from razing Prospero, I guess it probably would, but I guess they would have at least occupied the Sons homeworld to make sure they don't try any funny business. Either that or march the whole Legion back to Terra.
I thought Magnus purpose was to lead a Legion in the Great Crusade, reuniting mankind and its lost brethren
It was all part of the Emperors plan to get Magnus on the Throne anyway.
Pilau Rice wrote: It was all part of the Emperors plan to get Magnus on the Throne anyway.
I tend to agree but I wonder ... is sitting the throne so bad? We don't know anything about the Emperor's experience, short of what Jaq Draco witnessed (which very plausibly was a lie/illusion). Perhaps there is no way Magnus would have done this willingly and only would have accepted such a fate as penance. But there are a lot of assumptions necessary to conclude as much.
Pilau Rice wrote: It was all part of the Emperors plan to get Magnus on the Throne anyway.
I tend to agree but I wonder ... is sitting the throne so bad? We don't know anything about the Emperor's experience, short of what Jaq Draco witnessed (which very plausibly was a lie/illusion). Perhaps there is no way Magnus would have done this willingly and only would have accepted such a fate as penance. But there are a lot of assumptions necessary to conclude as much.
If the Vision shown to Magnus with him sitting on the Throne is anything to go by then possibly.
We know what it did to Malcador, I guess the effect would be the same on Magnus but over a vastly greater period, him being a Primarch filled with warpy goodness and all. But then It might never have any adverse affect on him. It's maybe not a case of him being confined to the Throne which is the punishment, but his Sons being left to their own devices and risking being lost to the flesh change.
The Emperor made several massive mistakes in this scenario (he made many others, but let's focus on this event).
It's pretty much established that the Primarchs all have the temperaments of teenagers. They had their petty rivalries and their daddy issues, and so on (he let them form their politics, much of which determined their allegiances when the Heresy happened). With Magnus, though, the Emperor made one of the biggest mistakes a parent can make by forbidding his son from using his special talent, but without telling him why, a reoccurring theme with the Big E. If he had explained the nature of Chaos and the delicate work he was doing (he basically just vanished and left Horus in charge, which led to a lot of bitterness/resentment from his immature sons who basically threw a fit because they thought daddy didn't love them anymore), Magnus wouldn't have had these issues.
However, the biggest blunder has to be this. When Magnus contacted the Emperor to warn him of Horus' betrayal, the Emperor's response was basically "I know! And you messed up my important work by contacting me!". If the Emperor already knew, why didn't he tell his sons? Russ wouldn't have listened to Horus if the Emperor had bothered to say "Oh yeah, your big brother is evil". Of course, this whole thing would have been prevented if he hadn't have been such a huge dick to Lorgar by humiliating him and opening him up to the wiles of Chaos.
EDIT: The throne wasn't going to be bad. It was only after Magnus ruined it that it became so horrible.
If the Emperor's plan had worked, surely no one would have needed to sit on the Golden Throne? He planned to open the webway to eliminate the need for Warp Travel, and thus humanity's dependance on Chaos.
It is however an interesting perspective I hadn't thought of before. Perhaps the real reason for Unleashing the Wolves was to get Magnus back to Terra to man the throne while the Emperor fixed the webway breach. However the usual, secrecy, mis-comunication and outside agendas (Horus)
Screwed up the execution of the plan. For all Magnus's flaws, the Emp is a total utter moron for not at least investigating to see if his Proxy was on the verge of rebellion. And even more so for unleashing the Wolves against one of his most Loyal (albeit mis-lead) Legions at a time of potential crisis.
He was obviously in psychic communication with Magnus, if only briefly (enough to berate him for his actions). Why didn't he just tell Magnus to come to Terra before he hung up the psychic phone? He would have!
However, the biggest blunder has to be this. When Magnus contacted the Emperor to warn him of Horus' betrayal, the Emperor's response was basically "I know! And you messed up my important work by contacting me!". If the Emperor already knew, why didn't he tell his sons? Russ wouldn't have listened to Horus if the Emperor had bothered to say "Oh yeah, your big brother is evil". Of course, this whole thing would have been prevented if he hadn't have been such a huge dick to Lorgar by humiliating him and opening him up to the wiles of Chaos.
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Hmm, not sure if he knew or not, as I understand it he couldn't believe what Magnus was going on about and suspected Magnus of being the traitor, not Horus.
But then if Lorgar would have done what he was supposed to be doing then none of this would have happened
The Emperors mantra is do as I say, not do as you please. The Emperor did make many mistakes and a lot of assumptions.
Frozen Ocean wrote: He was obviously in psychic communication with Magnus, if only briefly (enough to berate him for his actions). Why didn't he just tell Magnus to come to Terra before he hung up the psychic phone? He would have!
Did he listen to the Emperor when he had said, no more psychic powers sonny .. nope ..
Yeah, but he had a reason for doing it - Horus was starting up a civil war. That's pretty huge news. For all Magnus knew, doing what the Emperor had ordered and not using his powers would have allowed, well, the Horus Heresy to happen. For all Magnus knew, breaking his father's orders was preventing this huge war from happening. I think it was less Magnus just disobeying and more Magnus going "Look dad, I know you said I shouldn't use my powers but this is really, really important".
EDIT: It's like if a father forbade his teenage son from using his phone for a week, because of something he did. But then the son's mother gets horribly injured, and the son calls for an ambulance and then calls his dad to tell him that his wife is in hospital. "No son I told you to not use your phone! I'll send your big brother to come beat you up! Grrr!"
And the Emperor had a reason for saying no more psychic powers
Spoiler:
to cover up his pacts made with the Chaos Gods
But Magnus and his loyalty was already in doubt due to his use of sorcery. Contacting the Emperor the way he did is probably one of the dumbest things in the heresy series. It took two Legions which could have been used at Istvaan out of the picture.
EDIT: It's like if a father forbade his teenage son from using his phone for a week, because of something he did. But then the son's mother gets horribly injured, and the son calls for an ambulance and then calls his dad to tell him that his wife is in hospital. "No son I told you to not use your phone! I'll send your big brother to come beat you up! Grrr!"
I get that and I can relate, but this is the Emperor of the Imperium and his word is law. Also, it's not like there weren't other methods that Magnus could have chosen to get the message across. It was a poor choice made by Magnus, honestly I don't believe reliability or time were anything that he really considered, it was an attempt to show his father the good that sorcery can do. Way to go Magnus
The only reason Magnus' loyalty was in doubt is because Mortarion (who was a chaos primarch from the start!) and Leman Russ trumped up a case and cried to daddy that Magnus was cheating.
Furyou Miko wrote: The only reason Magnus' loyalty was in doubt is because Mortarion (who was a chaos primarch from the start!) and Leman Russ trumped up a case and cried to daddy that Magnus was cheating.
Yes. Also, The Emperor had his reasons, but he didn't tell them to Magnus! One of the most important parts of discipline is respect/understanding. The Emperor didn't sit Magnus down and explain why he couldn't use his powers, he just basically said "NO I AM THE EMPEROR YOU'LL DO WHAT I SAY", which is never cool.
Magnus tried his best to do what was right for his men. Years prior he made a blind deal with an entity he didnt know to save his sons from mutation. In the end he tried to warn the emperor and tried his best to stop Horus, but with simply to many strikes and other Primarchs against him, all the good he tried to do was still looked upon as wrong.
Remember he was Chaos first choice to corrupt but he was to powerful, he was able to easily defeat Demons, where Horus could not. Horus was manipulated and later turned to the dark side. But it was Horus ultimate plan to Have Russ and Magnus out of the way fighting their own spat. It clearly states in the books that Russ was the only physical being that could of stopped Horus/Chaos and Magnus was so powerful with the Ether that he could of stopped them also. Hence Horus manipulated the situation to have Russ attack Magnus and get them out of the main fight on Istvan.
In the end, Spacewolves legion, sisters of silence and custodians attacked prospero and ultimately failed at the destruction of 1000 sons. Magnus was ready to accept the fate but in the end came out and fought Russ. Stabbing Russ pretty bad until Russ planted a lucky shot to Magnus good eye. As you know this was all a rouse to buy Ahriman time to finish the incantation to swiftly remove his brothers from Prospero.
By default and the fact the winners write the history books, Magnus was a traitor legion and has been known as such since. But we all know the truth!
Furyou Miko wrote: The only reason Magnus' loyalty was in doubt is because Mortarion (who was a chaos primarch from the start!) and Leman Russ trumped up a case and cried to daddy that Magnus was cheating.
That and his use of Sorcery, yeah.
Define 'Sorcery' for me, as separate from 'Approved psionics', please.
The Wolves' "not really psychic powers honest!" is far more sorcerous than Magnus' Ennumerations.
Frozen Ocean wrote: Yes. Also, The Emperor had his reasons, but he didn't tell them to Magnus! One of the most important parts of discipline is respect/understanding. The Emperor didn't sit Magnus down and explain why he couldn't use his powers, he just basically said "NO I AM THE EMPEROR YOU'LL DO WHAT I SAY", which is never cool.
No, it's not, but he is the Emperor and the Primarchs aren't just his Sons, they are also the commanders of his armies and he their leader.
A little sketchy on Thousand Sons as I haven't read it for many moons, but when Magnus is saying about his trips in the Warp with his father, doesn't he mention that the Emperor explained about the dwellers in the warp and their nature, saying to be wary of it? It might not have been a full indepth do's and don'ts on interaction with the Warp but he did give some information away about it. We as the reader know that it was not nearly enough.
Furyou Miko wrote: The only reason Magnus' loyalty was in doubt is because Mortarion (who was a chaos primarch from the start!) and Leman Russ trumped up a case and cried to daddy that Magnus was cheating.
That and his use of Sorcery, yeah.
Define 'Sorcery' for me, as separate from 'Approved psionics', please.
The Wolves' "not really psychic powers honest!" is far more sorcerous than Magnus' Ennumerations.
Oh yeah totally, that whole 'our powers come from Fenris' is a load of garbage and how the Wolves are allowed to get away with it is beyond me. But we're not talking about the Wolves here. But I think a big difference is that the Wolves didn't enter in to pacts with the Warps denizens like the Sons did with their Tutelaries.
No, it's not, but he is the Emperor and the Primarchs aren't just his Sons, they are also the commanders of his armies and he their leader.
Which only gives him even more reason to guide them carefully! Most bad parents don't have the Horus Heresy and their imprisonment on the Golden Throne as consequence.
A little sketchy on Thousand Sons as I haven't read it for many moons, but when Magnus is saying about his trips in the Warp with his father, doesn't he mention that the Emperor explained about the dwellers in the warp and their nature, saying to be wary of it? It might not have been a full indepth do's and don'ts on interaction with the Warp but he did give some information away about it. We as the reader know that it was not nearly enough.
I haven't read the book, but knowing the Emperor's unnecessary secrecy, probably not. He was so massively determined to keep Chaos a secret (for no reason) that I don't think he would have given Magnus any useful information on the topic.
EDIT: Speaking of that Fenris nonsense, how much worse do you think that made it for Magnus? "Hey, Magnus, I know that you and your Legion are totally into sorcery and all... but no, stop. I'm the Emperor and I say so. Oh but that brother I know you have a rivalry with? His guys can still do it because of some nonsense, and they don't even really like doing it."
The Emperor basically said "Be very, very careful when dealing with the creatures of the Warp".
Which Magnus then said to the Thousand Sons he taught: "Be very, very careful with the creatures of the Warp."
And thus, the psykers of the Thousand Sons were very, very careful with the creatures of the warp, always making sure to bind them correctly and make no promises. They were not prepared to deal with the idea that at any moment, a Tutelary (a very, very minor daemon with no real power) could spontaneously become a Lord of Change because Tzeentch said "I want that one!" and thus break all of their bindings and bargains with a shrug.
Anyway, "Forging a bond with the spirit of Fenris" sure sounds like making a deal with a daemon to me, given that souls are warp entities and a planet's soul would have to be a warp entity as a result, and a powerful self-aware soul is called a daemon...
Which only gives him even more reason to guide them carefully! Most bad parents don't have the Horus Heresy and their imprisonment on the Golden Throne as consequence.
Yeah, what can you do though. He didn't really use his powers of foresight to their potential did he. I think some of it as well is the Primarchs upbringing on their respective homeworlds, he didn't necessarily get the chance to bring them up the way he had intended.
I haven't read the book, but knowing the Emperor's unnecessary secrecy, probably not. He was so massively determined to keep Chaos a secret (for no reason) that I don't think he would have given Magnus any useful information on the topic.
I think he had his reasons for keeping Chaos a secret.
And thus, the psykers of the Thousand Sons were very, very careful with the creatures of the warp, always making sure to bind them correctly and make no promises. They were not prepared to deal with the idea that at any moment, a Tutelary (a very, very minor daemon with no real power) could spontaneously become a Lord of Change because Tzeentch said "I want that one!" and thus break all of their bindings and bargains with a shrug.
No, but they could possess their masters and take over Titans causing massive asplosions. It doesn't really matter how minor the Daemon was, they were still making deals with chaos. Look at the deal Magnus himself made.
I don't think the bond between Fenris is anything other then them being born of Fenris, but your guess is as good as mine.
According to the wiki, of which the article is based on the book, the Emperor DID tell Magnus about Chaos (and only Magnus, because Emps realized that with Magus's psychic powers there was really no avoiding it). However, I dunno what amount of detail he gave to Magnus about it. The wiki just says he "showed the truth of the warp" to Magnus, and Magnus feigned (pretended) shock and horror in response.
Because all of the Space Marine psykers were Librarians, it dealt with all of the psykers who mattered at the time. The Wolves got off the hook because "something reasons something Fenris".
No, Nikea was specifically about Magnus. The whole point of Nikea was because Mortarion wanted to force Magnus to give up his powers and be resentful so that he would turn to Chaos.
The Emperor wrote:Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
Yeah, but that's exactly what we're saying. The Space Wolves were exempt because of their nonsense Fenris excuse. They outright say that they're not psykers and don't use Warp powers, they're just "much power many Fenris wow". This, for some reason, was good enough for The Emperor to believe.
Whatever the SW say about themselves, they were exempt from Nikaea because they did not maintain a Libarius department or have Librarians and NOT because of their beliefs about Fenris. As far as I know, no one but they themselves acknowledge their Fenris mythology.
The Librarians were trained to use their psychic powers according to a method devised by Jaghatai, Sanguinius, and most of all Magnus. This method is what the Emperor shut down at Nikaea.
Except it was! The Emperor was clear in saying something like "The Legions can never have any psykers, ever, apart from Astropaths and stuff". Space Wolves were exempt because they pretended their psykers weren't psykers.
So why didn't they just have psykers, but change the way they did stuff? He didn't say "Guys, tone it down". I really wish I had the book so I could quote-mine! DX
The Emperor wrote:But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes.
That's fairly clear. No more sorcery for any Astartes. Sorcery is just psychic power, which is backed up by the following:
The Emperor wrote:All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
He doesn't say "no sorcery", he says "no psychic powers". Furthermore, the psychic powers of Rune Priests were hardly different to real Librarians, so it's not like "sorcery" has any actual meaning. The Space Wolves were hardly the only Legion to use psychic power in that manner and not actually study it much.
Not according to the decree. The Emperor says he is banning sorcery with one sentence. In the next sentence he bans the Libarius Department. Therefore, the Emperor equated the Libarius Department with sorcery. We know there are other ways of using psychic power, such as Astropaths and Navigators used, which are not banned. Therefore, sorcery does not refer to psychic power generally but rather specifically to the legionary Librarius Department method of harnessing psychic power.
Big E knew/knows fine well the Space Doggies are psykers, and his edict was specifically aimed at the Librarius of every other Legion and not at the Wolves. It just maybe wasn't written in the best manner - a common flaw in GW writing.
Just typical of GW to be honest - Rules as written or rules as interpreted.
Frozen Ocean wrote: Could you find the bit where the Wolves explain that their power comes from Fenris? I mean, what prompts that?
The "Power from Fenris" is to say that their power comes from the traditions on Fenris and not from Fenris itself. There are quotes from Prospero Burns that shows that the Rune Priest know they are psykers and that their power comes from the warp.
But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
But if you don't have a Librarius it's ok to continue as normal.
I think that's the confusing part, where the Emperor blankets the whole of the Astartes, but then only those with a Librarius get affected.
Woe betide he who ignores my warning or breaks faith with me. He shall be my enemy, and I will visit such destruction upon him and all his followers that, until the end of all things, he shall rue the day he turned from my light
Seems pretty final as well, that's a warning to take heed of if ever I heard one.
Manchu wrote: The kicker is, it's hard to see how what Magnus did (using sorcery himself to break the hexagrammic wards of the palace) violates the decree.
Unless it has something to do with his Librarius being used to send him to the Palace and him responsible for their actions as the Primarch?
That's a good point about boundaries. All that Fenris superstition did give SW a proper sense of respect regarding their power whereas Magnus was all about pushing it further and further. It's part of his one-eyedness. He only ever sees half of anything. When he looks to the past, it's without reference to the future, and vice versa. Similarly, he can only see the potential of magic but not its dangers. Perhaps the reverse explains why he could not save his sons.
That some BL writer differs is their prerogative, there's been enough of the "old fluff" changed in the HH novel series to allow me to discard most of them as hacks with no respect for the previously-established lore of the setting.
Wyzilla wrote: The better question is what the hell is going on with the "there are no wolves in fenris" bit.
It's Magnus take on this thread, basically. The Wolves of Fenris aren't really wolves - either they're a native fauna with similar taxonomy, or so mutated from the dogs brought by the original human settlers that they're basically a different species.
Uh I think it's actually a somewhat sardonic reference to the instability of the Canis Helix or at least some problematic (horrific) genetic engineering among the first human colonists of Fenris.
To my mind the Edict of Nikea was to ban the various Libarius Departments within the legions. I believe the emperor as a political animal purposely left the space wolves out. It was out right said that the space wolves were his executioners and had sanctioned legions prior to the Heresy. It makes sense that by leaving them wriggle room within the edict that he was purposely giving them leeway and giving them an advantage over other legions that they would be expected to sanction.
He means the Space Wolves were used previously to sanction one of the two missing legions.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Psienesis wrote: They are as sorcerous as the Thousand Sons, they just have a better PR department.
No, Wyrdmake (spelling?) is talking to Ahriman and he does mention how they (the run priests) have more respect for what they learn and more discipline and self control on what they do. This makes them look weak to the Thousanx Sons but it does prevent them from being viewed as sourcerous and corrupt.
Regardless of the psycher rule, Magnus's actions don't make any sense.
1) He knows the Wolves are coming to destroy them, but hides that fact from his people so they are defenseless.
2) He states they deserve the coming fire.
3) He doesn't help when the Wolves are tearing up the place.
Then he suddenly turns around and saves everyone he can and becomes a demon prince, but plays coy the rest of the heresy and doesn't overtly do much.
Why didn't he put all his troops in stasis and head to Terra? That would have preserved them, and given him a chance to atone and beg the emperor's aid in saving them from the curse of instability.
If the emperor refused, he lost nothing. If the emperor assented, then he gained aid against Tzeench. Russ stated that he wanted to take Magnus alive and didn't want to burn down the planet.
Or why didn't he take his legion into space and have an orbital conflict?
There were several actions he had the time to make which would have preserved the knowledge collected on Prospero, and possibly himself and his legion that did not require turning to chaos. Yet Magnus makes no effort to avail himself of any.
No, Wyrdmake (spelling?) is talking to Ahriman and he does mention how they (the run priests) have more respect for what they learn and more discipline and self control on what they do. This makes them look weak to the Thousanx Sons but it does prevent them from being viewed as sourcerous and corrupt.
Furyou Miko wrote: The Fenrisians don't respect boundaries though. They certainly don't respect such things as honour and friendship.
You're letting opinions cloud facts. There are certain lines that SW will not cross when it comes to the Warp, which was never true of Magnus or his sons. Whether the SW are dishonorable is unrelated.
I don't know where this notion came from that the Thousand Sons were all unchained psykers, going around abusing the warp for their own gain. Each one was trained in one specific art, which they would master overtime, increasing their mastery and control of said powers until they could move on to the next level. More so than a lot of legions, they were aware of what would happen to an unprotected mind in the warp. There only real downfall was believing that the warp entities were smart enough to manipulate them.
They only really lost control at the Burning of Prospero, and that was out of desperation. There whole world was being burned so discipline went out the window and the anguish of such devastation caused them to tap into power that a lot of them couldn't handle.
To say that the Rune Priests are an exception because they knew there were lines that shouldn't be crossed is simply wrong. The Space Wolves have an eskewed understanding of their powers, believing they are natural because in the traditions of Fenris, psychic power is considered to come from the world itself, not from the warp. This view is shown to be categorically false by Ahriman In "A Thousand Sons" who can view Wyrdmake as a warp presence, It is also revelealed that the "Wolves" that follow the Space Wolves are just as warp touched as the Tutelary creatures that the Sons use as familiars.
The powers they used were not considered Sorcery until the Decree was brought it. Sorcery is simply a superstitious and inflammatory word for psychic powers. We don't consider 40k Librarians "Sorcerers" and yet they were still damned as such by the Decree.
(1) Contrary to the SW, Magnus believed that the only limits were talent and ignorance.
(2) The TS lost control long before Prospero fell. Actually, one of the most important themes of the TS is that they never had control (e.g., flesh change). What happened at Prospero is that one-eyed Magnus finally glimpsed how he had been manipulated by Tzeentch all along.
(3) The method of accessing psychic power used by the Rune Priests is fundamentally different than Librarians generally and TS Librarians specifically. Magnus was too arrogant and offended to consider that this so-called "superstition" was actually a cover for something very real and sophisticated, which is the most important theme about the SW in Abnett's Prospero Burns.
(4) The "tutelaries" are daemons pure and simple, not just "warp touched" (whatever that is supposed to mean) animals.
(5) Post-Heresy chapter Libarians are irrelevant to this discussion because (a) they are not covered by Nikaea and (b) we cannot at this time know how similar or different they were from the warrirors of the Pre-Heresy legionary Libarius Departments.
(6) "Sorcery" is not a prejudicial synonym for psychic powers generally. Astropaths and navigators are never called sorcerers. The Emperor used the word "sorcery" at Nikaea in a very particular way, to refer to the Libarius method of accessing psychic power (which was principally but not only laid out by Magnus).
Manchu wrote: (1) Contrary to the SW, Magnus believed that the only limits were talent and ignorance.
(2) The TS lost control long before Prospero fell. Actually, one of the most important themes of the TS is that they never had control (e.g., flesh change). What happened at Prospero is that one-eyed Magnus finally glimpsed how he had been manipulated by Tzeentch all along.
(3) The method of accessing psychic power used by the Rune Priests is fundamentally different than Librarians generally and TS Librarians specifically. Magnus was too arrogant and offended to consider that this so-called "superstition" was actually a cover for something very real and sophisticated, which is the most important theme about the SW in Abnett's Prospero Burns.
(4) The "tutelaries" are daemons pure and simple, not just "warp touched" (whatever that is supposed to mean) animals.
(5) Post-Heresy chapter Libarians are irrelevant to this discussion because (a) they are not covered by Nikaea and (b) we cannot at this time know how similar or different they were from the warrirors of the Pre-Heresy legionary Libarius Departments.
(6) "Sorcery" is not a prejudicial synonym for psychic powers generally. Astropaths and navigators are never called sorcerers. The Emperor used the word "sorcery" at Nikaea in a very particular way, to refer to the Libarius method of accessing psychic power (which was principally but not only laid out by Magnus).
1. That doesn't mean that the SW weren't guitly of that ignorance, I don't remember where it says the Rune priests imited their powers, they seemed to use pretty powerful powers themselves. Magnus himself may have been guilty of hubris, but he was the second greatest psyker in the galaxy and a Primarch, almost all of the Primarchs were arrogant in their abilities to some degree.
2. They did have control of their powers, they just weren't aware of the bargain Magnus made and that one day Tzeentch would call in that favour. The unchained energies during the battle for Prospero allowed Tzeentch to play his Ace in the hole and pour power into the TS that they couldn't control. Not all of them lost control this way and many survived the battle without succumbing to the Flesh change long enough for the Rubric to save some of them.
3. How is it different? Aside from SW propaganda and hyperbole, we have no measurable means of knowing how they access their powers. Every psyker in the galaxy draws their power from the warp and we are supposed to belive the SW. Why? Because they said so.
4. I'll concede that one, but by that logic, the Wolves were still hinted to be some kind of warp related creatures. Perhaps in the same vein as the beasts of Caliban.
5. From almost all writing so far it seems fair to assume that 40k's librarians are the same as their Pre-Heresy counterparts. The Emperor never withdrew the decree, Guilliman, The Lion and Corax (possibly others) all simply decided that for the sake of Pragmatism they should reinstate the best chance they had of fighting the newly emerged forces of Chaos.
6. Yes it is. The reason that Astropaths and Navigators were left out was A) because the Imperium cannot function without them, and B) because Astropaths have a very specific mutation that doesn't leave them to become unbound psychopaths and Astropaths are soul bound already. It's hypocrasy, plain and simple. In the same way that the Bible states that "Thou Shalt not kill" and yet every religious war leader in History has picked and chosen when that applies, most commonly during wars they wish to fight which obviously rely on the assumption that they can kill their enemies.
(1) This is a point about Magnus and the TS. Comments about the SW or any other legion are irrelevant to the fact that Magnus saw no necessary limitation to his use of psychic power.
(2) Magnus and the TS did not understand their power. It therefore impossible that they had it under control at any point. Rather, they arrogantly assumed. If someone doesn't understand this, they cannot understand the tragedy of the TS.
(3) It is clearly different. Most obviously, the SW do not summon and bind themselves to daemons.
(4) Keep in mind, (almost all) humans are also "warp-touched" by a very broad definition.
(5) At Nikaea, the Emperor banned legionary Librarius Departments. Chapters were never covered. And as I said, we have no evidence -- just an assumption based on the name -- that Chapter Libarians employ the "Magnus method." In fact, Chapter Librarians generally seem a lot more careful than the TS ever were.
(6) I posted the direct quote from A Thousand sons as to what the Emperor said at Nikaea.
The Space Wolves did. Repeatedly, actually. They lied right to the Blood Angels' faces about it, for example.
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Manchu wrote: Whatever the SW say about themselves, they were exempt from Nikaea because they did not maintain a Libarius department or have Librarians and NOT because of their beliefs about Fenris. As far as I know, no one but they themselves acknowledge their Fenris mythology.
It's called a loophole.
Adhering to the letter of the law, if not the spirit.
There is not much difference between an Ultramarine Librarian and a Rune Priest.
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Manchu wrote: It's not just a matter of what they were called.
The Librarians were trained to use their psychic powers according to a method devised by Jaghatai, Sanguinius, and most of all Magnus. This method is what the Emperor shut down at Nikaea.
A Rune Priest is not simply a SW Librarian.
So what you're saying is that everyone else should have gotten around the Decree by retraining their psykers in a different way? Good point.
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Wyzilla wrote: The better question is what the hell is going on with the "there are no wolves in fenris" bit.
Space Wolves ride on top of each other's backs.
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Manchu wrote: You're letting opinions cloud facts. There are certain lines that SW will not cross when it comes to the Warp, which was never true of Magnus or his sons. Whether the SW are dishonorable is unrelated.
I suppose you missed the entire point of the Enumerations then.
Magnus thought he, specifically, had no boundaries, but he advised his sons to be mindful of their own limits.
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Psienesis wrote: That some BL writer differs is their prerogative, there's been enough of the "old fluff" changed in the HH novel series to allow me to discard most of them as hacks with no respect for the previously-established lore of the setting.
Or maybe you just don't know what you're talking about?
The Space Wolves do not practice sorcery as it has ever been defined when made distinct from normal psychic power (Which is to say, excluding sources that posit both are one and the same, but that's long out of date by now).
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Manchu wrote: Rather, they arrogantly assumed. If someone doesn't understand this, they cannot understand the tragedy of the TS.
That one man's hubris damned ten thousand loyal warriors?
No I think we understand that just fine. I'm not sure you do, though.
Russ poses as a savage and organized his Legion to do the same. It appears this deceives many readers. Incidentally, it seems the Lion eventually saw through it.
Characterizing the letter of Nikaea as a loophole implies the Emperor did not choose his words carefully enough. Such arrogance is worthy of Magnus himself.
The Enumerations are nothing more than a pitiful superstition, woven in the willing mind of the Cyclops by Tzeentch. They guaranteed nothing except a false sense of safety and mastery that lulled the Thousand Sons into doom. The delusion that Magnus taught his sons anything of limitations was shattered by Ahriman's Rubric, whereupon Tzeentch laughed in the face of Magnus's anguish.
If loyalty is only a matter of intention, then Magnus and his sons have a good case. Unfortunately, Chaos does not require consent. The Thousand Sons surely did not intend to turn from the Emperor. They were victims of the Changer of Ways, of the Space Wolves, possibly of the Emperor himself. But more than anything, they were the victims of their Primarch.
"The Enumerations are nothing more than a pitiful superstition"
You're just inventing your own fluff now...
As to the thread topic I think Magnus actions make sense in a way. His actions appear to do a 180 because, well, they do. He accepts their impending doom. He doesn't want it to be drawn out, its an execution not a fight, so he doesn't warn the planet. At the same time you can't really expect the marines to not fight at all so you can't just have them all lay down. As Magnus watches his world burning and his sons being broken he can't take it anymore. His resolve to suffer his punishment wavers and he instead saves the remaining astartes.
Not really. The Enumerations ultimately had as much value as carrying around a four leaf clover except people who do that are less deluded than the TS.
I agree with you that Magnus changed his mind during the battle, however.
The Enumerations are basically just levels of mediation. A clear and purposed mind being paramount when controlling psychic powers I feel is evident throughout the fluff. It is also shown to be very useful throughout the TSons book. The widespread overreaching of powers didn't happen at all until the burning of prospero, when the legion was dying. If I recall, the flesh-change wasn't rampant either until moving to daemon world in the warp.
I also don't believe there is a distinction between Librarius departments and astartes psykers. They are one in the same. Humans, including astartes can develop psychic powers. The librarius was developed to label and govern pyskers and teach them rather than just let it go naturally. It is not any specific training method developed by Magnus, just the idea of official incorporation of psykers into the legions. That's why legions had their own librarius departments and not sent to Prospero for training like tech marines are sent to Mars.
SW didn't create a librarius because they already had one built in as shamanism. Its literally the same thing just a different name. The Emperor has to know this. Therefore, he must have let it slide. Its also not uncommon for the Emperor's actions to be nonsensical or unmotivated in the fluff. He's the most poorly written (when written at all) part of the whole setting and almost all major problems can be traced back to his inexplicable behaviors.
Taking a line from the council of Nikea isn't really helpful as it went on for a very long time and we are not given that much dialogue about it. If he was just banning librarius use of psykers there's literally no reason for all the many instances of psykers holding back their powers once the librarius is dissolved.
The flesh change was merely forestalled. Similarly, the TS were able to "control" their power for as long as Tzeentch allowed.
They were and are just pawns of Tzeentch, thanks to Magnus.
The decree doesn't exist outside of what we know ... because this is a fictional story and the decree is nothing more than a plot device in that story. And as a plot device, it can only mean what it says -- and not what it doesn't say, such as something about SM psykers outside of Librarius Departments.
As to a Chapter Librarian and Legion Librarian, whether they are the same or different is pure conjecture.
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JubbJubbz wrote: If he was just banning librarius use of psykers there's literally no reason for all the many instances of psykers holding back their powers once the librarius is dissolved.
There is absolute reason (the decree of the Emperor) for, say, a Blood Angel to hold back. But the decree does not cover SW, so a Rune Priest would not need to hold back. There is a scene V_D is fond of quoting to this effect.
When the Great Company's Rune Priest dies, Prospero Burns says "There were several men in Tra who were alleged to have the sight like Longfang."
Void__Dragon wrote:There is not much difference between an Ultramarine Librarian and a Rune Priest.
There is not remotely enough information about either of those things to say that.
Manchu wrote: V_D
ahh haha.
But you know, this argument is not like saying that Ho Chih Minh would never have become a communist if President Wilson had been nicer to him. You can't talk about what if scenarios, because this entire thing is a what if scenario. The setting is subject to, and is the product of, some basic principle of god damn literary theory.
Angron and the World Eaters were always chaotic. Horus and the Luna Wolves were always chaotic. Slaanesh always existed, and the Emperor was always a god. The Thousand Sons were always chaotic, and the burning of prospero was just an exposition thereof.
Manchu wrote: Russ poses as a savage and organized his Legion to do the same. It appears this deceives many readers. Incidentally, it seems the Lion eventually saw through it.
Point?
Characterizing the letter of Nikaea as a loophole implies the Emperor did not choose his words carefully enough. Such arrogance is worthy of Magnus himself.
Or maybe we can look at history and conclude the Emperor is an idiot who makes bad decisions. Because historically, that is the interpretation that is supported best.
The Enumerations are nothing more than a pitiful superstition, woven in the willing mind of the Cyclops by Tzeentch. They guaranteed nothing except a false sense of safety and mastery that lulled the Thousand Sons into doom. The delusion that Magnus taught his sons anything of limitations was shattered by Ahriman's Rubric, whereupon Tzeentch laughed in the face of Magnus's anguish.
A. Prove the Enumerations were a superstition.
B. Your claim was that the TS had no lines they would not cross, that the Enumerations even existed was proof that they were taught to be mindful of their limits and rein in their powers to keep them under control. Instead of feebly trying to squirm your way into a new argument entirely, just admit you were wrong.
C. The Rubric has no relevance to anything at all that has been discussed.
If loyalty is only a matter of intention, then Magnus and his sons have a good case. Unfortunately, Chaos does not require consent.
"Oh well Chaos forced them to rebel", uh, yeah, sure man. That doesn't change any of my points.
The Thousand Sons surely did not intend to turn from the Emperor. They were victims of the Changer of Ways, of the Space Wolves, possibly of the Emperor himself. But more than anything, they were the victims of their Primarch.
There is not remotely enough information about either of those things to say that.
Neither one do anything like make pacts with Daemons and we see in Fear to Tread that Rune Priests have knowledge of the types of psychic rituals they can conduct and can indeed aid them in this endeavor.
There is very little difference based on the actual fluff. Any assertion that there is is backed by less evidence than the opposite.
to get into this conversation. I personally really like/d Magnus, although I have only read the first 5 heresy novels. The 1000 suns only turned traitor to escape being the victims of Horus' dogs, sorry the emperor's dogs. I still fancy that around the galaxamy there are still pockets of loyalist thousand suns.
I used to really like Magnus in the setting, until Black Library started 'fleshing him out'
Now he's an insuffereable whinger, every time he shows up he is decidedly underwhelming (struggles even to defeat WolfGuard in Battle of the Fang), he completely squanders his entire legion not once, but TWICE. He theoretically has the power to do just about anything, and what does he choose to do with it? Nothing at all.
JubbJubbz wrote: If he was just banning librarius use of psykers there's literally no reason for all the many instances of psykers holding back their powers once the librarius is dissolved.
There is absolute reason (the decree of the Emperor) for, say, a Blood Angel to hold back. But the decree does not cover SW, so a Rune Priest would not need to hold back. There is a scene V_D is fond of quoting to this effect.
This doesn't make any sense. You are saying the SW don't fall under the decree because they aren't part of the Librarius. Nikea bans librarians from using psyker powers and also dissolves the librarius deptartments. If the department dissolves, the pyskers of say, the blood angels, are no longer part of the librarius and then, like the SW in your argument, they no longer fall under the ban because they aren't part of the librarius (it doesn't exist). Restricting the librarians and then dissolving the librarius by definition has no effect if you interpret it that way. The only logical conclusion is that he is banning all psychic powers in the astartes (because librarian and astartes psyker are synonymous at the time). This is the whole point of the SW claiming their powers are from Fenris rather than the warp as its understood that pysker powers deal with the warp.
JubbJubbz wrote: If the department dissolves, the pyskers of say, the blood angels, are no longer part of the librarius and then, like the SW in your argument, they no longer fall under the ban because they aren't part of the librarius (it doesn't exist).
Again, I posted the quotation ITT. You can read it at any time. What you will find is, the Emperor decreed that any member of the Libararius was to form back into the Legion and never use psychic powers again. None of that applies to Rune Priests.
Manchu wrote: Again, I posted the quotation ITT. You can read it at any time. What you will find is, the Emperor decreed that any member of the Libararius was to form back into the Legion and never use psychic powers again. None of that applies to Rune Priests.
That is not what the quote says at all. I'm very confused how you can think that.
Manchu wrote: We have the Emperor's exact words at Nikaea:
The Emperor wrote:Let it be known that no one shall suffer censure, for this conclave is to serve Unity, not discord. But no more shall the threat of sorcery be allowed to taint the warriors of the Astartes. Henceforth, it is my will that no Legion will maintain a Librarius department. All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
A Thousand Sons, p. 355, my emphasis
You emphasized 'its' which refers to the librarius department. The quote goes on to say that the 'its' (librarius dept.) warriors can't use psychic powers anymore. As no warriors belong to the librarius after it is disbanded, interpreting it the way you do makes this ban affect no one. There are no more warriors of librarius. This means that following Nikea, any psyker who is not a member of the librarius (i.e. all of them) would not be in violation of the edict.
TiamatRoar wrote: According to the wiki, of which the article is based on the book, the Emperor DID tell Magnus about Chaos (and only Magnus, because Emps realized that with Magus's psychic powers there was really no avoiding it). However, I dunno what amount of detail he gave to Magnus about it. The wiki just says he "showed the truth of the warp" to Magnus, and Magnus feigned (pretended) shock and horror in response.
Spoiler:
How did the Khan know then? Read the book but can't remember if it says how he knew that the warp has demons in it and it's dangerous etc... He even says that the emperor is building the empire on a lie and wonders how long it's gonna last...or something like that
JubbJubbz wrote: If the department dissolves, the pyskers of say, the blood angels, are no longer part of the librarius and then, like the SW in your argument, they no longer fall under the ban because they aren't part of the librarius (it doesn't exist).
Again, I posted the quotation ITT. You can read it at any time. What you will find is, the Emperor decreed that any member of the Libararius was to form back into the Legion and never use psychic powers again. None of that applies to Rune Priests.
I think it's been summed up nicely already but one more flaw in your whole "SW don't have a librarius so they are exempt" argument is simply this; The Thousand Sons never had a Librarius department either. Sure they encouraged the introduction of them into the other Legions, but so many of the Thousand Sons were pskers, they were simply spread out amongst the Legion. By your logic, they should also be able to ignore the Edict. Quite obviously, the Emperor meant "all" psychic powers, but just didn't go out of his way to enforce it. Did the Thousand Sons get punished for breaking the decree and using their powers? No they got punished because Magnus did, specifically he used them and caused catastrophic damage to the webway portal. There are examples of Marines breaking the decree across the Legions and not one of them is ever punished. One Raven Guard even does it on Terra, next to a Custodes, and then just claims that the Emperor guided him to do it, and no one bats an eye.
This was Magnus's whole argument against the Edict, it promotes ignorance and hides a problem. Better to understand and explain a phenomenon and harness it safely (more or less) than ban it outright and push it to the shadows. It's almost comparable to the real life "War on Drugs" which has exacerbated the problem it was meant to fix. Honestly, why give at least 4 or 5 of your sons incredible pyschic powers and then after letting them use them for 2 centuries suddenly try and ban them? The whole council was a sham and it was aimed at Magnus. The Wolves just particularly annoy me because they are all "holier than thou" when they actually break all of the same rules, using ignorance as an excuse. Manchu already pointed out, Russ faked savagery to make his brothers underestimate him, so I'm sure he was well aware that his Rune Priests were psykers and simply chose to feign ignorance to suit his own ends.
One thing I don't get about this book is why its so difficult for Magnus to contact the Emp psychically. Its been awhile since I read it but I recall that Magnus supposedly greeted the Emp like an old friend the first time they met. This was because they were never separated like the others. Magnus was such a strong innate psyker that he communed with the Emp long before they ever physically met. If he did it effortlessly as a child why all the hubb bubb now? Why does it take this complex ritual and input from astartes psykers? I realize the warp is in turmoil due to chaos and all but seems like a full grown Magnus could still easily operate his psychic telephone. Furthermore, why does Magnus have to break into the webway to reach the Emp? Granted, he didn't know it was the webway, just a barrier, but its not the only way to connect to the Emperor psychically because we know Magnus did it before. Maybe I'm just missing something but it seems kinda strange the way I remember it
JubbJubbz wrote: As no warriors belong to the librarius after it is disbanded, interpreting it the way you do makes this ban affect no one.
No. It does not only ban the departments. It says that anyone who was a warrior or an instructor of a Librarius department can never again employ psychic powers:
The Emperor wrote:All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: The Thousand Sons never had a Librarius department either.
Totally false. Magnus took the lead in developing the Librarius with his own legion.
KorPhaeron77 wrote: The Wolves just particularly annoy me because they are all "holier than thou" when they actually break all of the same rules, using ignorance as an excuse.
As explained, the Rune Priests did not violate the Decree.
JubbJubbz wrote: why its so difficult for Magnus to contact the Emp psychically
The palace was protected by various wards to keep the Warp at bay while the Emperor worked on the Golden Throne. Magnus had to break the wards.
Manchu wrote: No. It does not only ban the departments. It says that anyone who was a warrior or an instructor of a Librarius department can never again employ psychic powers:
The Emperor wrote:All its warriors and instructors must be returned to the battle companies and never again employ any psychic powers.
I disagree. If you say "Bob's cars" (a possessive) it does not refer to all cars Bob has ever owned. Just the ones he currently owns. Similarly "Its warriors" is "the librarius' warriors" and means literally 'warriors of the librarius', not 'warriors that are or ever were of the librarius.'
Even if it did mean what you say, why don't the legions just continue to recruit new pyskers since the new ones (not being part of the librarius) wouldn't fall under the edict according to you? Why do the SW present go through such lengths to deny their powers are of the warp if it were totally irrelevant to the edict? All they'd have to say is "I'm not a librarian".
That English sentence plainly means that every Librarius instructor or warrior is never allowed to use psychic powers again.
The legions could have theoretically created an entirely new regimen of psychic power training after Nikaea but it would have presumably taken a great deal of time and effort and the HH got in the way of things.
Arguably, the Loyalist Astartes may have done exactly that post-HH.
Only Magnus broke the edict and he is not part of the Librarius so therefore he was in the right. See how interpretation works both ways? Magnus was in the right the entire time. The reason he didn't fight is because he knew he was being manipulated by Tzeentch but finally gave into his anger and love for his sons.
Manchu wrote: The kicker is, it's hard to see how what Magnus did (using sorcery himself to break the hexagrammic wards of the palace) violates the decree.
Pilau Rice wrote: Unless it has something to do with his Librarius being used to send him to the Palace and him responsible for their actions as the Primarch?
