I would like to start this thread to discuss AM troops.

Please feel free to discuss tips, tricks, good choices, combos & ideas.

There's not really a bad option, to be honest. Vets and everything in a platoon all work out well. Here's my pick, though:

Multiple Small/Big units:

PCS

PIS, melta
PIS, melta
PIS, melta

Conscripts

SWS, snipers
SWS, snipers
SWS, snipers

all of the above x2

This gives you a lot of big units, which, with added Priests and Primarises, can be a big threat, while also having half a dozen smaller units that can throw up some serious target priority issues. If the enemy shoot the SWS/PCS, the blobs are unmolested, if they shoot the blobs, the SWS/PCS are free to score. It's a win-win.

To start the discussion, a rundown:

New Options for IG/AM Troops choices:
Major Changes:
-Cheaper and much better Priests
-Much better orders from both PCS and CCS
-Taurox as a dedicated transport
-Chimera has altered fire ports/lasgun arrays
-Loss of reliable outflanking options
Minor Changes:
-The ability to take Flak Missiles
-Bolters on squad leaders
-3 SWS per platoon as opposed to 2
-Slightly cheaper Commissars

New Pricing:
-Conscripts -1 point per model
-Vets -10 points (but do not come with Krak grenades)
-Heavy Flamer in Vets and PCS -10 points
-Vet Doctrine upgrades are cheaper (except for Demolitions)
-Power Weapons +5 points
-Chimeras +10 points
-Sniper Rifles -3 points
-Plasma Pistols +5 points

All considered, I'd say the changes that really matter are Orders, Priests, and cheap Conscripts, but that's just my opinion.

Biophysical wrote:
All considered, I'd say the changes that really matter are Orders, Priests, and cheap Conscripts, but that's just my opinion.

I think the fancy new Divination Psykers are a pretty big buff to infantry if you want to use them for that. A decent sized blob will benefit quite a bit from Prescience, especially when combined with orders like Take Aim.

True enough, I guess I figured Inquisitors basically offered the same thing already. An in-house version is nice, however.

Yeah, nice but not strictly necessary.

As for blobs, we'll see how they go. You can get cheaper conscripts now, but not much else has changed. Given that conscripts themselves are only capable of handling infantry, I'm not 100% that a cheap conscript screen will really do the trick.

I mean, they weren't before, and a squad of 20 only cost 20 points more than they do now. You'd think we'd have seen an attempt at this strategy before now.

Because not a lot changed for foot guard, I can't imagine that much has changed for foot guard. The only real difference is the source of fearless (but leadership was never the problem with blobs, as rerollable Ld9/10 was practically fearless anyways). And a non-ally way of getting prescience.

Also, orders are better, but I don't know if they're far and away better. They stack better with other abilities now, and some are, of course, straight better (like the ones that didn't exist before), but all the reasons orders weren't grossly overpowered before are still the reasons they're not grossly overpowered now.

Meanwhile, on the other side, mechvets are almost identical to the way they were before, except if you want to shoot all three plasma guns, you've got to get out first, which isn't that big of a deal, and the basic defesive playstyle of them is the same.

The one thing that does kind of interest me now is that you can sort of think of vets as having lost krak grenades, but have the option to take a Sv 4+ for only 5 points. Perhaps there's something new to be added to the pot with foot vets.

I can see a carapace horde working pretty well, to be honest. I ran that in the last codex with 50 vets and 30 stormies, and now both options are a fair bit cheaper, there's plenty of room for supporting units that sometimes had to be left out before.

And you can also take stormies as platoons. You don't even need to deepstrike them. Just plant 170 carapace armored models on the table and then run forward in BS4 special weapon ecstasy.

Really the big conscript change was the Priest more than the price reduction, I suppose. You can get 30 with a Priest for 115 points, whis is 5 points less than you used to get 30 before. That's significant because it's still only a little more than a well-equipped infantry squad, about twice as much as a pretty cheap infantry squad.

This is probably the big "new" Troops choice Guard get. You had to devote a pretty expensive HQ slot in the form of a Lord Commissar to get something like this before. Basically it was a non-starter. The cheap and cheerful Fearless Thirty is just asking to be sent straight at the enemy. It will beat a lot of crummy stuff up if it actually gets anywhere, but it's going to take some effort, effort that would kill it's points in Guardsmen much faster. If you consider that the primary job of the Troops choice is to exist near an objective, 30 Fearless wounds for 115 points is pretty good for the job. If you consider the second job of Troops is to take and defend objectives, a crap-ton of re-rolled to hit rolls and maybe to-wound rolls isn't a bad path to taking an objective. It's so cheap that the Priest getting sniped is no real tragedy either.

Carapace Foot Vets seems like it could be fun, but I don't know if it really works. Several posters have argued that a lot of armies can kill 40 Guardsmen a turn. I don't think Carapace is really cutting that in half to 20 Guardsmen per turn.

Yeah, carapace vets don't die slower than 4++ buffed blobs. They do get an AWFUL lot more killing power, though. Don't know if that fixes the problem any more than other attempts, but it might at least be another close, if not a cigar.

Also, a carry-over from the other thread. Mechvets just taking techpriests like blobs just take priests? The ride is more secure, the PotMS keeps both chimera's weapons firing, and whenever the vets arrive, they have a unit with a plasma pistol and a powerfist with a Sv3+. Kind of pricey, but with elite-based armies, spending points isn't necessarily a bad thing.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, carapace vets don't die slower than 4++ buffed blobs. They do get an AWFUL lot more killing power, though. Don't know if that fixes the problem any more than other attempts, but it might at least be another close, if not a cigar.

Also, a carry-over from the other thread. Mechvets just taking techpriests like blobs just take priests? The ride is more secure, the PotMS keeps both chimera's weapons firing, and whenever the vets arrive, they have a unit with a plasma pistol and a powerfist with a Sv3+. Kind of pricey, but with elite-based armies, spending points isn't necessarily a bad thing.

If they're toting plasma would it be worth it to put a Primaris in too? Or is it too high a price at that point? I'd probably go with one or the other.

I think it's probably bad for the points, but I was looking at Carapace Mech-Vet + Priest for Fearless and an extra plasma gun. That unit hops out and lights something up and isn't too kind to counter-attackers of any sort. A techpriest could add something in that spot, or in the 12th seat. After disembarkation, I could see a techpriest splitting off to wail on vehicles with his Powerfist. That's sort of cool. In general, it's nice to have units that can split off to go after separate targets.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I've thought about Priest + Primaris also. Lots of points, but with quad plasmas, might as well go for the re-roll. A power axe and Ld 9 for orders is never bad to have.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
You know, if you take the price of a Veteran, give him an upgrade for extra attack and leadership, give him a Power Axe and Power Fist, you end up being a bit more than the cost of a Techpriest. Throw in power armor, IC status, PotMS, and the occasional fixit roll and it starts looking like a pretty good buy.

Okay, so what's the "best" option here?

Priest gives fearless (which isn't going to be that useful given it's a tiny mech squad), but also gives a small buff to close combat, and an extra plasma gun. Primaris gives a small buff to close combat and makes the plasma guns you have twin-linked (which in the case of 3 BS4 plasma guns adds exactly the same as another BS4 plasma gun). The techpriest adds a slightly bigger buff in close combat, and adds no plasma (was wrong about that), but instead makes it so that you can fire an extra heavy flamer/whatever and gives split firing (if that's useful here), and keeps the chimera on the board a little better.

So, what does that mean? I think it means that the primaris is just out. Adding a BS4 plasma gun is better than adding a BS3 plasma gun, especially since you can't stick that extra plasma gun out the now smaller top hatch, but the priest is cheaper, and just gets a plasma gun, rather than the primaris, who has to pass a psychic test. The primaris is only better if you have no intention at all of getting out of the chimera ever, but is it worth that many points just to usually twin-link a BS4 lascannon chilling out in the background? Probably not, especially since you're getting dangerously close to another vet squad in cost. Meanwhile, if you do want to keep the chimera in the backfield, the self-repair is going to be better, because the whole point is to keep them in a chimera, and PotMS is probably going to be more handy than that usually twin-linked.

So, then you compare the priest to the techpriest. Priest might get smash, but techpriest just gets a powerfist. Sv3+ vs. 4++ is a slight gain to the priest, as is the fact that he can sometimes buff the squad. The priest gets fearless, but come on, is a 11-man vet squad going to survive a round of shooting and close combat? I'd give the slight edge to the techpriest, but it's pretty close either way.

So then what is more important, getting an extra plasma gun when you dismount, or making it less likely that you'll have to dismount in the first place while buffing the ride?

Well, the priest will do better if there's going to be a mass close combat around, as he'd be able to just kind of sneak those vets in... eventually, given that the chimera isn't an assault vehicle. He's also going to be better if orders are around because extra BiD plasma gun. Meanwhile, the techpriest is going to be better if there's a risk of being caught in a close combat without any other units in the close combat (as in, on the defensive). They're also going to be more useful if there are other vehicles are around (even if the chimera is destroyed, there still might be other stuff to repair/buff).

I think that's the split, then. If you're going to be running around with stuff, the techpriest is better. He's better in close combat on the defensive, and he's better for a more self-sufficient vet squad as he can keep the whole thing in tact better, and can keep the ride, not just the squad, at full power. Meanwhile, if the mechvets are going to be used around a great deal of other commotion, the priest can make better use out of being supported by something else. To put it another way the priest can use orders, but the techpriest doesn't need them.

So, I suppose in the case of a hybrid list, where you're more likely going to have something that needs to get bailed out by a priest with some mechvets, and there will be abblative wounds and orders for the priest to make use of, then it's the priest. For pretty much anything else, I'd say the techpriest.

Especially if you're going a full-mech list (mechvets+russes or leafblower), because the techpriest will have a lot of work on his hands.

I'll add a bit of input to this.

With the last book I used to run Vets upgraded with meltabombs and democharges. With the new release allowing us to take 4+ armor AND Camo with defensive grenades for less than my previous upgrades I thought I'd try it out.

Last game I played I ran 4 units of foot vets, Heavy Flamer, 2 meltas, and auto cannon and both the previously mentioned upgrades WITH OUT ANY TRANSPORT. (Crazy right?)

I was impressed by these goobers. 125 pts a unit. They dished out AC rounds, either stationary (as some took objectives in ruins) or snap shooting on the move. The +1 to cover at all times was amazing, and the combination of a 4+ and defensive grenades saw them being tricky or down right annoying to dislodge from cover by combat.

Over all, they did what they needed to do and did it surprisingly well for 125pts

Another small point that was added; SWS and conscripts now have frag grenades...not much more granted, but at least they got the "bare minimum" to actually be worth something in a fight, not to mention you can at least throw a small blast at someone now..

 Ailaros wrote:
Okay, so what's the "best" option here?

Priest gives fearless (which isn't going to be that useful given it's a tiny mech squad), but also gives a small buff to close combat, and an extra plasma gun. Primaris gives a small buff to close combat and makes the plasma guns you have twin-linked (which in the case of 3 BS4 plasma guns adds exactly the same as another BS4 plasma gun). The techpriest adds a slightly bigger buff in close combat, and adds no plasma (was wrong about that), but instead makes it so that you can fire an extra heavy flamer/whatever and gives split firing (if that's useful here), and keeps the chimera on the board a little better.

So, what does that mean? I think it means that the primaris is just out. Adding a BS4 plasma gun is better than adding a BS3 plasma gun, especially since you can't stick that extra plasma gun out the now smaller top hatch, but the priest is cheaper, and just gets a plasma gun, rather than the primaris, who has to pass a psychic test. The primaris is only better if you have no intention at all of getting out of the chimera ever, but is it worth that many points just to usually twin-link a BS4 lascannon chilling out in the background? Probably not, especially since you're getting dangerously close to another vet squad in cost. Meanwhile, if you do want to keep the chimera in the backfield, the self-repair is going to be better, because the whole point is to keep them in a chimera, and PotMS is probably going to be more handy than that usually twin-linked.

So, then you compare the priest to the techpriest. Priest might get smash, but techpriest just gets a powerfist. Sv3+ vs. 4++ is a slight gain to the priest, as is the fact that he can sometimes buff the squad. The priest gets fearless, but come on, is a 11-man vet squad going to survive a round of shooting and close combat? I'd give the slight edge to the techpriest, but it's pretty close either way.

So then what is more important, getting an extra plasma gun when you dismount, or making it less likely that you'll have to dismount in the first place while buffing the ride?

Well, the priest will do better if there's going to be a mass close combat around, as he'd be able to just kind of sneak those vets in... eventually, given that the chimera isn't an assault vehicle. He's also going to be better if orders are around because extra BiD plasma gun. Meanwhile, the techpriest is going to be better if there's a risk of being caught in a close combat without any other units in the close combat (as in, on the defensive). They're also going to be more useful if there are other vehicles are around (even if the chimera is destroyed, there still might be other stuff to repair/buff).

I think that's the split, then. If you're going to be running around with stuff, the techpriest is better. He's better in close combat on the defensive, and he's better for a more self-sufficient vet squad as he can keep the whole thing in tact better, and can keep the ride, not just the squad, at full power. Meanwhile, if the mechvets are going to be used around a great deal of other commotion, the priest can make better use out of being supported by something else. To put it another way the priest can use orders, but the techpriest doesn't need them.

So, I suppose in the case of a hybrid list, where you're more likely going to have something that needs to get bailed out by a priest with some mechvets, and there will be abblative wounds and orders for the priest to make use of, then it's the priest. For pretty much anything else, I'd say the techpriest.

Especially if you're going a full-mech list (mechvets+russes or leafblower), because the techpriest will have a lot of work on his hands.

You can add both a priest and a techpriest to the squad since the transport cap is 12.

Also, how does smash work on a servo-arm?

Priests only give smash to themselves. The other two go to the squad, but not smash.

Which is why I'd say the techpriest is better. Fearless is less useful on tiny, squishy squads, and hatred/warhymns aren't as good on just a couple guys with bayonets, while smash isn't as good as a powerfist.

The priest would probably be better in a challenge, thanks to the ++, but that's about it.

 Ailaros wrote:
Priests only give smash to themselves. The other two go to the squad, but not smash.

Which is why I'd say the techpriest is better. Fearless is less useful on tiny, squishy squads, and hatred/warhymns aren't as good on just a couple guys with bayonets, while smash isn't as good as a powerfist.

The priest would probably be better in a challenge, thanks to the ++, but that's about it.

Right, I knew that; derp.

It depends on the challenge too; if it's a goober with an AP4 or worse weapon, the techpriest is a better person to accept the challenge with. The priest is meh. Also, if the goober has an AP3 or better weapon, accept with the throwaway sergeant XD - after all, the squad is still LD8 with the techpriest.

Ally in tigerius and GoI a blob 24"

Another thing about the priest/techpriest debate, Ailaros, is how do the two affect the rest of your list.

What I mean is, a regular priest is awesome for his squad, but unless you break him off from his squad he can't do much for other units.

The techpriest on the other hand, can do something even as he sits in the chimera. If you have the chimera near a unit of russes for example, he can still give his power of the machine spirit buff out even as he sits in the chimera safe and sound. Since mechvets are probably being used in a tank list, this is a big deal. That alone I think would make the techpriest the clear winner.

On the topic of troops, what's the big excitement for SWS's with snipers? Is it just that they're super cheap scoring units?

bolt guns on sergents is a nice thing, only 1 point and proably worth it just so the sergent can shoot with his troops.

The sniper SWS are super cheap scoring units that can actually sort of get something done. Dirt cheap, scoring, reasonably tough for its cost, and might do something useful. It's a good combination. If you're like me your also excited because it's a place to put cool sniper models that doesn't feel like you're shooting yourself in the foot.

MrMoustaffa wrote:The techpriest on the other hand, can do something even as he sits in the chimera.

Hmm, so the techpriest is more of an upgrade for the chimera, and I guess I'll let some vets tag along.

I suppose what the moral of the story is that techpriests aren't worth it unless you can make use of both PotMS and repair, and the priest isn't really worth it unless you can take advantage of both fearless and the close combat buff. Taking one and using just one of those abilities isn't all that worth it.

MrMoustaffa wrote:On the topic of troops, what's the big excitement for SWS's with snipers? Is it just that they're super cheap scoring units?

Yeah, that's all.

It's something I'm not all that terribly excited about, myself. If you're taking a list with 250 scoring models in it, adding a few more... meh. For 14 more points, I could just take another PIS, which will have nearly twice the durability.

If you went REALLY heavy with the Sniper Rifles I could see some utility out of the Snipers, but yeah, only 3 models with them, with Guard shooting? Ehhhhhhhh.

Won't stop me from getting a bunch of the Vostroyan ones though (I love those models).

MrMoustaffa wrote:
On the topic of troops, what's the big excitement for SWS's with snipers? Is it just that they're super cheap scoring units?

ClockworkZion wrote:If you went REALLY heavy with the Sniper Rifles I could see some utility out of the Snipers, but yeah, only 3 models with them, with Guard shooting? Ehhhhhhhh.

Won't stop me from getting a bunch of the Vostroyan ones though (I love those models).

It's the combination of a couple of factors:

First, a 36 point scoring unit that can easily be taken in multiples, which, combined with a PCS, give you what amounts to an MSU contingent among the blobs.

They're scoring, which means that your opponent has to choose between dedicating (wasting?) firepower to dislodge half a dozen small units, therefore not hitting the blobs, or hitting the blobs, leaving you with a bunch of unhurt scoring units.

Any damage done by the Sniper Rifles is just gravy, with with 12 in 4 squads, that's a fair number of potential hits/even pins.

Basically, they're more useful that 36 points suggests.

Ah I see. You're saying take something like 6 of them and just spam them. That could be a fun strategy. At that point there's actually enough that they could be a little bit of a threat too if you concentrate their fire. I'd rather have ratlings if we're purely looking at shooting, but having twice the wounds and scorings is worth 6 pts and 1 less BS.

I probably wouldn't use them much, but I can see the appeal.

I'm more excited about trying a bunch of grenadier vet squads backed up by allied stormtroopers deep striking in. The list would probably cap out on troop slots pretty quickly, but I think it would be fun. Just make use of a bunch of Leman russes and maybe some armored sentinels and you're golden.

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I'm more excited about trying a bunch of grenadier vet squads backed up by allied stormtroopers deep striking in.

I'm surprised we haven't seen more talk of this, allied stormtroopers deepstriking en masse could do a lot to help the IG's issues with scoring unit mobility. The couple of games I've had with the new book so far have been all about holding my backfield while pushing the midfield while my opponents leave only a token scoring unit on their own backfield. A smallish stormtrooper platoon threatening the enemy's backfield might be just the thing to alleviate the pressure a bit on the midfield.

 tuebor wrote:

 MrMoustaffa wrote:
I'm more excited about trying a bunch of grenadier vet squads backed up by allied stormtroopers deep striking in.

I'm surprised we haven't seen more talk of this, allied stormtroopers deepstriking en masse could do a lot to help the IG's issues with scoring unit mobility. The couple of games I've had with the new book so far have been all about holding my backfield while pushing the midfield while my opponents leave only a token scoring unit on their own backfield. A smallish stormtrooper platoon threatening the enemy's backfield might be just the thing to alleviate the pressure a bit on the midfield.

I posted exactly this idea for an army build in the army lists section and got not a single response.

So IDK.

I really like this idea, but I hate the idea of buying another book just to let me do it. It's probably one of the more competitive ally options for Guard, and you're still taking Guard. It's just a difficult to get book, which sucks.

Thinking more on the SWS as an MSU component, I'm wondering about the 3x Grenade Launcher squad. I played with this idea when the last book came out, but 50 points seemed to expensive for crummy grenade launchers. 45 isn't much cheaper, but it is cheaper, and they get frag grenades. Most importantly, though, 4+ saves are becoming a lot more common, and 45 points for 3 S6 shots at 24", with the option for blasts if the enemy is bunched up, seems like it's not a bad thing. It can advance along-side a conscript squad, shoot some targets of opportunity, and just be a cheap scoring unit that the enemy has to kill to stop you from scoring/contesting. The trip flamer squad probably does much of the same thing, but better, because you'll actually be able to accomplish something if you get somewhere, but it doesn't offer any real firepower on the way.

Biophysical wrote:

Thinking more on the SWS as an MSU component, I'm wondering about the 3x Grenade Launcher squad. I played with this idea when the last book came out, but 50 points seemed to expensive for crummy grenade launchers. 45 isn't much cheaper, but it is cheaper, and they get frag grenades. Most importantly, though, 4+ saves are becoming a lot more common, and 45 points for 3 S6 shots at 24", with the option for blasts if the enemy is bunched up, seems like it's not a bad thing. It can advance along-side a conscript squad, shoot some targets of opportunity, and just be a cheap scoring unit that the enemy has to kill to stop you from scoring/contesting. The trip flamer squad probably does much of the same thing, but better, because you'll actually be able to accomplish something if you get somewhere, but it doesn't offer any real firepower on the way.

Grenade Launchers won't kill stuff either (thank you BS3). And the flamers are at least also usable when the squad is charged.


Also, I think there is no point in debating over the effectiveness of selections in this codex. I mean, the answer is always Orders and Divination. So we should argue about whether 3 ML2 Primaris Psykers are too much/too few/just OK, or how many CCS/PCS gives you the best cover of Orders. Everything else is secondary because you can just buff stuff into the heavens with Orders/Divination.

For the record, thirty man conscripts are a *fantastic* thing, but I prefer to lead them with a COmmissar (Which is a new option now!) over a priest due to them *not* being fearless and, thus, they can go to ground.

Conscripts are all about mobbing objectives while the well-armed troopers sit back and shoot over their heads. Commissars make sure that they don't run off (and with all of them being 3 pt clones, who cares if you pick which shot or the opponent does? That reroll's going through either way!) Being able to Go to Ground increases their durability, which is key for any objective-holders, which is IMHO more useful than a priest upping their offense.

Right now, it looks like my core will be shrinking from three platoons, each with three ten-man squads, to just two, plus two units of 30 conscripts and a Commissar. A bit sad, but also quite neat.

I disagree strongly on the Commissar leading the Conscripts. He is much easier to kill, only a 4+ LOS and crappy armor save vs 2+ LOS and 4++. In combat, once the enemy challenges, a Commissar is either hiding or dead, and then you're testing on Stubborn Ld 5 in the best case. With the priest, you're not testing at all. I don't really care to hide conscripts or give them orders, so Ld 7 Fearless is way better then Ld 9 Stubborn. The extra close combat abilities of the Priest are just gravy.

Biophysical wrote:I really like this idea, but I hate the idea of buying another book just to let me do it. It's probably one of the more competitive ally options for Guard, and you're still taking Guard. It's just a difficult to get book, which sucks.

Do you really need the other book, though? Just C&P and print the orders that have been posted in several threads and you're done. That's what I'll be doing if I want MT allies.

That said, though, I'm not sold on the idea of bringing them as allies. You can get a maximum of 25 in an allied detachment (unless you use the formations) compared to 35 in a single AM Elite slot. Ok, they're scoring and get different orders, but there's less support options near them. Also, the reliance on MT orders could actually be a weakness, as if they kill the 5-man command squad then your Scion squads are far less useful; in an AM army, you'd still get orders from a CCS/PCS.

Thinking more on the SWS as an MSU component, I'm wondering about the 3x Grenade Launcher squad. I played with this idea when the last book came out, but 50 points seemed to expensive for crummy grenade launchers. 45 isn't much cheaper, but it is cheaper, and they get frag grenades. Most importantly, though, 4+ saves are becoming a lot more common, and 45 points for 3 S6 shots at 24", with the option for blasts if the enemy is bunched up, seems like it's not a bad thing. It can advance along-side a conscript squad, shoot some targets of opportunity, and just be a cheap scoring unit that the enemy has to kill to stop you from scoring/contesting. The trip flamer squad probably does much of the same thing, but better, because you'll actually be able to accomplish something if you get somewhere, but it doesn't offer any real firepower on the way.

Interesting idea. I can see the flamer one working best as a defensive unit, like a secondary fireball PCS. GL could work, but might be a bit to fragile on the basis that if you're shielding it with other units, it's not at its most effective.

AtoMaki wrote:
Also, I think there is no point in debating over the effectiveness of selections in this codex. I mean, the answer is always Orders and Divination. So we should argue about whether 3 ML2 Primaris Psykers are too much/too few/just OK, or how many CCS/PCS gives you the best cover of Orders. Everything else is secondary because you can just buff stuff into the heavens with Orders/Divination.

I think that's rather a sweeping statement. All the buffs in the world won't help if you can't score, advance or defend, so there is more to it that 'take stuff, add orders/divination'. If a poor unit with orders can be made good, then a good unit with orders can be made great.

 Paradigm wrote:
I think that's rather a sweeping statement. All the buffs in the world won't help if you can't score, advance or defend, so there is more to it that 'take stuff, add orders/divination'. If a poor unit with orders can be made good, then a good unit with orders can be made great.

Well, but the whole promise of the buffs that they allow you to advance (with the super-run/run&shoot order and all those offensive buffs) and defend (4+ invi/full BS overwatch power). Even Ogryns are a good choice that can wreak havoc when buffed with prescience and forewarning.

If you really want to dig into it, then maybe you can say that certain units have better synergy with the support elements because buffs are more cost-efficient on them (like tank squadrons and conscript blobs) while others are pretty bad targets for buffing (like Scout Sentinels). But the later category is pretty small so you can just use the 'lots of buffing units+random stuff you like=good army' equation and roll with it. It is not like the codex offers you a collection of vastly different units (it is usually 'dude' and 'dude with +1 BS' or 'tank' and 'tank with different gun'), if you know what I mean .

Spending 225 points for the chance at forewarning isn't very good. What happens when you don't get forewarning that game? Does the entire plan fall apart?

What happens when you don't get the power off that one turn that you really need it? Does the entire plan fall apart?

It seems like basing any guard strategy off of the results of a few die rolls is insanely risky, not insanely good.

Agreed. The trick is figuring out how much support can I buy to make my little dudes more effective for the points, while still retaining enough little dudes to make my plan work when stuff doesn't work out like I'd prefer.

Dare I say it, support units are support units?

It's really easy to overdo it with options and extras with guard. Generally it's better to just take more stuff than to try and buff the stuff you have. This principle is weakened slightly now that we have better buffers, but it didn't go away.

For all the talk of a lvl 2 primaris giving prescience to a blob, it overlooks the fact that you're approaching the cost of just buying 2 more PISs, which is nearly always going to be better.

 Ailaros wrote:
Spending 225 points for the chance at forewarning isn't very good. What happens when you don't get forewarning that game? Does the entire plan fall apart?

What happens when you don't get the power off that one turn that you really need it? Does the entire plan fall apart?

It seems like basing any guard strategy off of the results of a few die rolls is insanely risky, not insanely good.

The sweetest power, Prescience, doesn't require a roll. Everything else is just an extra since you cannot roll bad powers from Divination (maybe '5' is not optimal for the Primaris but hey, at least you have something to be replaced by Prescience). And it is not like the Codex is thriving in options in the 225 points range that equal with 6 Divination powers.

For all the talk of a lvl 2 primaris giving prescience to a blob, it overlooks the fact that you're approaching the cost of just buying 2 more PISs, which is nearly always going to be better.

The magic of the whole thing is that the ML2 Primaris will put that Prescience on anyone who needs it, not just on the blob. And as you said, rolls can ruin your day, and in this case, two PIS can't save you. Prescience can, though.

Prescience still requires a roll to see if it goes off, which it fails 1/6th of the time. Saying that a primaris psyker always casts prescience is like saying that terminators never fail armor saves.

And once again, it matters what you're casting prescience on. Presciencing a couple of lascannons isn't really worth it, and prescience gets worse the higher the BS of the model.

Are there some times when prescience can be worth it? Yes. Is it always worth it? Far from it. Is it auto-include? Not even slightly.

Just a thought. You can get an HQ and 2 deepstriking Troops for 165 points with MT allies. Guard equivalent of Guardian Jet Bikes? 5 man Scion squads can even occasionally get something done.

 Ailaros wrote:

Are there some times when prescience can be worth it? Yes. Is it always worth it? Far from it.

Why? Is there a situation when twin-linking all weapons in a unit is bad? Like, okay, casting Prescience on the Whywerns is silly, but nobody forces you to waste the power on units that don''t require it at that moment. Cast it on the full-plasma Executioners and watch the world burn. Or on the 50 strong blob.

For the note, I don't say that support units are necessary auto-include. But it is like a Tau army without Markerlights. The support is just adding so much to the army, not including it is like handicapping yourself.

AtoMaki wrote: Is there a situation when twin-linking all weapons in a unit is bad?

When the cost of the twin-linking is higher than the cost of buying other stuff that would do more.

 Ailaros wrote:

AtoMaki wrote: Is there a situation when twin-linking all weapons in a unit is bad?

When the cost of the twin-linking is higher than the cost of buying other stuff that would do more.

As I said before, I think the Codex does not provide much for 50/75 points that could do more than the Divination powers. The only thing that comes to my mind is the Whywern. Not counting the other support options of course (like the CCS).

 Ailaros wrote:

AtoMaki wrote: Is there a situation when twin-linking all weapons in a unit is bad?

When the cost of the twin-linking is higher than the cost of buying other stuff that would do more.

I've heard this many times before from many good folk, on the subject of buff vs more boys/toys. It's like this: Whilst you could get an extra infantry squad (or 2) or another lascannon, these buffs can support the entire army as needed.

Also its not 225pts; start with a single ML 1 and go from there.

Also also, prescience helps with force concentration.

I did consider the Ally option; with a 25pt tax you get non orderable scions. With infantry squads vs SWS its 30pts vs 50pts or 36pts vs 60-65pts. Is there use for 6 infantry men to hide out of LOS, unsure.

AtoMaki wrote:As I said before, I think the Codex does not provide much for 50/75 points that could do more than the Divination powers. The only thing that comes to my mind is the Whywern. Not counting the other support options of course (like the CCS).

Firstly, there's the assumption of carrier cost where there technically needen't. You don't need to buy a new unit instead of the psyker. Meltaguns and lascannons cost just 10 points apiece, for example, and if you don't have ALL of your weapons slots filled, then you get more literal bang per buck filling them.

Now, it's true that sometimes you can't spend those points because those slots are filled, fair enough. That just means, though, that the psykers are only a great buy when you can't spend his points on something else.

It's the problem that prescience psykers have. They don't do anything more than add killing power, which means that you can directly compare them to other things that add killing power, like more guns.

There are going to be examples here and there where it's going to be better than just more guns, certainly. I'm not saying that they're an awful, never-take unit. But it doesn't do to have irrational exuberance about them either, and just assume that they make your army 50% better all the time for practically no cost.

Some rudimentary maths on Primaris vs more stuff.

1 Infantry Squad, Lascannon, greater than 12" range:
Without Primaris: 3.5 Lasgun hits, 0.5 Lascannon hits
With Primaris: 5.25 Lasgun hits, 0.75 hits

Increase in effectiveness: 50%
Increase in cost: 71%
Result: Poor investment.


2 Infantry Squads, Lascannons, greater than 12" range:
Without Primaris: 7 lasgun hits, 1 Lascannon hit
With Primaris: 10.5 Lasgun hits, 1.5 Lascannon hits

Increase in effectiveness: 50%
Increase in cost: 35%

So from that, it would seem that on anything 2 squads or more, you're getting a greater effect than adding another infantry squad, purely on cost vs effect. That said, that's not taking into account the infliction of damage on the unit, and after only a few casualties, the 20-man squad will lose effectiveness.

So you really want to be adding a Primaris only on units of 30 men or greater, as then there's more guys that have to die before you're in the red on that ratio.

They're certainly not an auto-take, but there's no denying the effectiveness of them on large units.

Not quite.

So, take those two PISs with lascannons. Adding a primaris adds .5 lascannon hits and 7.5 lasgun/pistol hits. Adding another lascannon PIS adds another .5 lascannon hits, and another 7.5 lasgun hits.

So they look equal on the face of it, but they're not. Prescience only works 5/6ths of the time, so the extra PIS does more damage. Furthermore, the PIS adds 10 extra bodies of durability instead of only 2 wounds (on a non-scoring model) of it.

This means that if you have a 30-man blob squad, then it starts making sense, killing-power-wise, to add in a psyker than to upgrade it to a 40-man blob.

Meanwhile, in mech guard world, it's going to be hard to justify prescience just so you can reroll a pair of BS4 meltaguns, as that's not very much added for a lot of points.

That means that prescience psykers are only really useful if you're bringing a bunch of large infantry squads, or you plan on having your veterans spend a lot of time out of their chimera and far away from other sources of buffs.

At least, that's with troops choices, the purpose of this thread.

Yeah, I'd never take a Primaris for units of less than 30. I see your point about another IS adding the same to the 20-blob, but the Primaris is also cheaper, for what it's worth. Other than that, though, I agree that the extra guys are a better choice.

So troop mobility... How do AM get to or take mid-to-back field objectives?

 Ailaros wrote:
Dare I say it, support units are support units?

It's really easy to overdo it with options and extras with guard. Generally it's better to just take more stuff than to try and buff the stuff you have. This principle is weakened slightly now that we have better buffers, but it didn't go away.

For all the talk of a lvl 2 primaris giving prescience to a blob, it overlooks the fact that you're approaching the cost of just buying 2 more PISs, which is nearly always going to be better.

This is the worst argument you have ever made I think. We have control over how we build a list, so yes there is easily a way to make a list where you always benefit from prescience, and with three tries you are looking at way better then 1/6 where you need it. Further more, no you don't get 2 PIS your 25% short, and further once you realize you need upgrades to m,ake the unit worth taking to begin with.

THAT is where prescience is pure gold, it makes your upgrades all twice as effective for a fraction of the cost. 10 las canons is 200 points, 5 plus prescience is 150 and we aren't even looking at the additional costs involved with unlocking access to those las canons, just the upgrades.

P!ease keep to the OP please...

 Ailaros wrote:
Not quite.

So, take those two PISs with lascannons. Adding a primaris adds .5 lascannon hits and 7.5 lasgun/pistol hits. Adding another lascannon PIS adds another .5 lascannon hits, and another 7.5 lasgun hits.

So they look equal on the face of it, but they're not. Prescience only works 5/6ths of the time, so the extra PIS does more damage. Furthermore, the PIS adds 10 extra bodies of durability instead of only 2 wounds (on a non-scoring model) of it.

This means that if you have a 30-man blob squad, then it starts making sense, killing-power-wise, to add in a psyker than to upgrade it to a 40-man blob.

Meanwhile, in mech guard world, it's going to be hard to justify prescience just so you can reroll a pair of BS4 meltaguns, as that's not very much added for a lot of points.

That means that prescience psykers are only really useful if you're bringing a bunch of large infantry squads, or you plan on having your veterans spend a lot of time out of their chimera and far away from other sources of buffs.

At least, that's with troops choices, the purpose of this thread.

One thing though, a primaris pysker model costs like 12 bucks. A new blob costs way more

Ok being serious now. Main reason you might want primaris pyskers is because at a certain, you just have too many models. Lets take a very small example, two 30 man platoons with a 30 strong conscripts squad as well. That's a 130 infantry models counting the PCS for only 580pts base, ignoring possible Sws's, vets, CCS's, stormtroopers, etc. Think about how much time that takes to setup, deploy, move, etc.

Now, you have two options to increase your army's effectiveness. You can buy even more dudes, drastically increasing the amount of time it takes to play your army OR you can buy a few infantry models that increase your army's effectiveness almost as much. A few primaris pyskers, commissars, priests, and officers go a long way to increasing your army's ability to kill things without having to mortage your house to afford it.

The real question of course, is what your tipping point is where buying buff units becomes more practical than just buying more dudes. Tying this into the OP with troop choices, there is simply a point where conscripts and platoons will become too cumbersome. At that point, you'll want harder units like vets or allied stormtroopers to increase the amount of troops while still being useful, buff units to make the units you have better, or just go full crazy MSU and start spamming SWS' and HWS's

Red Corsair wrote: We have control over how we build a list, so yes there is easily a way to make a list where you always benefit from prescience

You're missing the entire point.

Prescience is only sometimes worth it. Can you build a list in such a way where it's more likely to be worth it? Yes. That still doesn't mean it's worth it outside of those times when it's worth it.

Figuring out when it is and when it isn't was rather the point of the post.

For the troops, Psykers are great, but not required.

If you're running blobs, let's say, your first focus on the list is giving those blobs a purpose and them kitting them in such a way that they do that job effectively for the least amount of points. This would be along the lines of making a blob of 30 duded with 3x Las/Plas. Now they need something to keep them around; throw in a Priest (or commissar I guess) for cheap fearless (and another plasma if you want) and now the blob is durable and has some teeth for the least amount of points spent.

When you're done adding blobs and other support units like Russes or arty, then you look at the weird amount of points left. Have 50 to spare? Psyker! Have 75? Even better Psyker! Have 100? More Psykers!

Point is, I don't think its ideal to start off adding in Psykers to your list; build the troops you want, then add the support units, then add in the support characters with the leftover points.

IG troops shouldn't be bloated. Its why I can't take a Taurox Prime seriously with the missile launcher option. Why spend that many points on an AV11 vehicle? Same goes for troops. Give them the tools they need first, then add in the support with the leftover points, if possible.

Psykers are good, but more guns are even better.

 Ailaros wrote:

Red Corsair wrote: We have control over how we build a list, so yes there is easily a way to make a list where you always benefit from prescience

You're missing the entire point.

Prescience is only sometimes worth it. Can you build a list in such a way where it's more likely to be worth it? Yes. That still doesn't mean it's worth it outside of those times when it's worth it.

Figuring out when it is and when it isn't was rather the point of the post.

Ok sure, flamers are only sometimes worth it, but you still take them for when you need them. I think your kicking the can around for no reason here.

The best part of prescience is you basically double your efficiency ANYWHERE you need it for the turn. In a game with set points limits this is almost always worth it as it lets you reach a level of efficiency in your list that you normally couldn't reach with a point cap. At low points your right, if all I have is a PIS then it's more worth it to take a second PIS then a PP, but at normal scale battles (1000+ points IMO) where you have many units with differing upgrades, its much more cost effective to buy a PP or 3 then it is to double up on every unit.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blacksails wrote:
For the troops, Psykers are great, but not required.

If you're running blobs, let's say, your first focus on the list is giving those blobs a purpose and them kitting them in such a way that they do that job effectively for the least amount of points. This would be along the lines of making a blob of 30 duded with 3x Las/Plas. Now they need something to keep them around; throw in a Priest (or commissar I guess) for cheap fearless (and another plasma if you want) and now the blob is durable and has some teeth for the least amount of points spent.

When you're done adding blobs and other support units like Russes or arty, then you look at the weird amount of points left. Have 50 to spare? Psyker! Have 75? Even better Psyker! Have 100? More Psykers!

Point is, I don't think its ideal to start off adding in Psykers to your list; build the troops you want, then add the support units, then add in the support characters with the leftover points.

IG troops shouldn't be bloated. Its why I can't take a Taurox Prime seriously with the missile launcher option. Why spend that many points on an AV11 vehicle? Same goes for troops. Give them the tools they need first, then add in the support with the leftover points, if possible.

Psykers are good, but more guns are even better.

I agree, but I think once your core shooters are picked then its time to think of those psychers. As I said, if you spend 300 points on a blob (5 PIS with auto canons) its WAY more cost efficient to add a 50 pt PP to double their output then it is to add another 300 point blob. It saves you 250 pts that you can now spend on an artillery battery. You basically get the same output AND added support units.

Priest, Psykers & 20-30 conscripts.

- testing on ld9 for hymns
- A mobile squad to hide the PP
- PP & priest buffs

The dirty dozen?

I feel that often one will be in my 20-30 IS blob/line & the other PP will be with conscripts.

Biophysical wrote:
I disagree strongly on the Commissar leading the Conscripts. He is much easier to kill, only a 4+ LOS and crappy armor save vs 2+ LOS and 4++. In combat, once the enemy challenges, a Commissar is either hiding or dead, and then you're testing on Stubborn Ld 5 in the best case. With the priest, you're not testing at all. I don't really care to hide conscripts or give them orders, so Ld 7 Fearless is way better then Ld 9 Stubborn. The extra close combat abilities of the Priest are just gravy.

LD5 stubborn is better than fearless because failure=execution auto pass=1-2 opponent picks a conscript 3-6 you pick a conscript. Well worth being able to g2g.

That being said the priest can detach and gives hate/shred in cc.

 Red Corsair wrote:


I agree, but I think once your core shooters are picked then its time to think of those psychers. As I said, if you spend 300 points on a blob (5 PIS with auto canons) its WAY more cost efficient to add a 50 pt PP to double their output then it is to add another 300 point blob. It saves you 250 pts that you can now spend on an artillery battery. You basically get the same output AND added support units.

...Which is basically what I'm saying. Its obviously dependent on the list and army size, but once you have your core of what the army should be doing, spending roughly ~85-90% of its points on actual bodies, guns and hulls, then throw in the psykers.

Without going into the specifics on every list possible, its safe to say the first priority of a Guard player is to develop the core of either a mechanized or foot force, backed by tanks or arty, then sprinkle in some psychic powers.

Its all a balancing game. Go to heavy on psychic support and you don't have the durability; go to light and you lack the versatility that prescience (when combined with orders) affords the new Guard player.

However, things like commissars and priests are kind of mandatory for large blobs to keep them where they need to be.

I also don't understand the hype around conscripts. Maybe I'm biased because I don't like the concept to begin with, but I'd much rather take 30+ guys in an infantry blob with guns to make use of things like orders and prescience from turn 1 with lascannons and such.

I think that primaris psykers and, depending on your infantry choices, priests as well, follow the rule of thumb for IG. This is assuming that we're above the level of 1250 points or so, so you have some room to play with.

1 is a target
2 is redundancy
3 is spam

I think 2 pskyers is enough, and 2 priests if you feel you need them for conscripts or blobs going up to 1850. Above that I think you could potentially have enough worthwhile targets for 3. But then again, I don't get to play very 2000 point games these days.

 Blacksails wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:


I agree, but I think once your core shooters are picked then its time to think of those psychers. As I said, if you spend 300 points on a blob (5 PIS with auto canons) its WAY more cost efficient to add a 50 pt PP to double their output then it is to add another 300 point blob. It saves you 250 pts that you can now spend on an artillery battery. You basically get the same output AND added support units.

...Which is basically what I'm saying. Its obviously dependent on the list and army size, but once you have your core of what the army should be doing, spending roughly ~85-90% of its points on actual bodies, guns and hulls, then throw in the psykers.

Without going into the specifics on every list possible, its safe to say the first priority of a Guard player is to develop the core of either a mechanized or foot force, backed by tanks or arty, then sprinkle in some psychic powers.

Its all a balancing game. Go to heavy on psychic support and you don't have the durability; go to light and you lack the versatility that prescience (when combined with orders) affords the new Guard player.

However, things like commissars and priests are kind of mandatory for large blobs to keep them where they need to be.

I also don't understand the hype around conscripts. Maybe I'm biased because I don't like the concept to begin with, but I'd much rather take 30+ guys in an infantry blob with guns to make use of things like orders and prescience from turn 1 with lascannons and such.

I agree; I'd rather have 3 normal squads I can get heavy/special weapons for better stats, a Sgt and the PCS for orders than a blob of guardsmen, just worse.

3 guardsmen v 5 conscripts FRFSRF 12 to 24" range.

6 shots bs3=3 hits or 4.5 with prescience.

10 shots at bs2=3.333hits or 5.5 with prescience.

Conscripts outshoot guardsmen when it comes to frfsrf.

Their weakness is they need to be near or with a commissar/lord commissar. If a list has Yarick anyways conscripts are a solid purchase.

Conscripts also have the chance to beef up your numbers so that you might actually have infantry on the table at the end of the game if you're trying to do anything other than hide behind an aegis.

I'm not 100% on them either, mostly because the conscripts themselves can only sort of handle... well, a decent range of targets, but not a comprehensive amount. My biggest concern is that they look scary, but the moment your opponent can handle them by just ignoring them for a while, well, that makes me think twice.

schadenfreude wrote:LD5 stubborn is better than fearless because failure=execution auto pass=1-2 opponent picks a conscript 3-6 you pick a conscript. Well worth being able to g2g.

Lol. No! NO! Don't pick Johnny! There are 40 other conscripts to choose from. NO! NOOOOOOO!!!!!

JOHNNY!!!!!

Anyways, why would you want conscripts to go to ground? The point of conscripts is moving forward. If you want something that's just going to hide behind an aegis, other squads are better because they can actually do stuff other than just cower.

 Ailaros wrote:
Dare I say it, support units are support units?

It's really easy to overdo it with options and extras with guard. Generally it's better to just take more stuff than to try and buff the stuff you have. This principle is weakened slightly now that we have better buffers, but it didn't go away.

For all the talk of a lvl 2 primaris giving prescience to a blob, it overlooks the fact that you're approaching the cost of just buying 2 more PISs, which is nearly always going to be better.

You're also adding 3-4 S4 AP2 attacks to that blob from the force axe he's going to take. And you can take him as Biomancy/Divination and use the Biomancy primaris for 4 more S4 AP2 shooting attacks. I think the problem is if you hide them all the way in the back and use them only as support characters, they're not going to be worth it. If it's a conscript, blob, don't bother buffing them much. Conscript blobs work better as a tarpit or as ablative wounds for some ICs that can do stuff (like the aforementioned psyker)... just make sure he's like 5 inches back when the fight starts and piles in 3" to be within 2" of a guy in base to base and you're in no danger of him being assigned wounds first.

And once again, it matters what you're casting prescience on. Presciencing a couple of lascannons isn't really worth it, and prescience gets worse the higher the BS of the model.

I disagree. Prescience on 5 BS3 lascannons is about 25pts. per turn extra lascannons worth. Pays for himself in 3 turns not counting his second power. Now, prescience on 5 lascannons that have been ordered to bring it down makes them just good enough to take down some AV13-4 things in one round of fire (assuming no cover). Without both those buffs, you're just not getting the concentration of fire you need. Even if you buy more lascannons, there's no guarantee that they'll also have LoS on the same target.

But I suppose there's a decent argument to be made that an inquisitor is better if all you want is the prescience. For 5 points more you get a better armor save, better Ld (which makes him a lot more reliable) and also buffs the squad better, and an extra wound. You also get the option to pay 8 points to give him 3+ or servo skulls for 3pts each which will help your Master of Ordnance hit something close to what he was aiming for or deep strike in your scions.

So troop mobility... How do AM get to or take mid-to-back field objectives?

Ally in Raven Guard, attach a cheap HQ to your blob to allow them to outflank, (I really, want to try this at some point).

'm not 100% on them either, mostly because the conscripts themselves can only sort of handle... well, a decent range of targets, but not a comprehensive amount. My biggest concern is that they look scary, but the moment your opponent can handle them by just ignoring them for a while, well, that makes me think twice.

Honestly, I think conscripts belong in melee. Against WS4, WS2 or WS3 is the same. They have the same S and die equally easily, but cost 40% less. Regular guardsmen can also take special and heavy weapons that you don't want tied up in melee.

I agree with Ailaros, im going to give my 40 strong block of conscripts a priest. 145 pts? 41 fearless models? honestly i dont care if they all die as long as they tie some shotting up or even assault a deathstar so the rest of my force can get better positioning. and if they make it to an objective, your guna have bad time killing ALL of them while i pelt you with autocannon/lascannon

What about Deathstrike missile? Using 3 of them might be scary.
After launching rocket it can be used as vehicle with HB (or flamer) and machinegun
3 Deathstrikes + camo + stubber + firebarrels = 570 pts

I get that people really dig Conscripts, but I can't bring myself to take them, I'd rather take regular Guardsmen. Are regular Guardsmen from a IS really that much worse? I saw the Math above and its quite clear that they are worse when Prescience'd for their points cost. I know that lower points cost means more bodies means more map control means more redundancy, but I just don't love conscripts.

Is it just me?

Allying Scions could be fun, someone mentionned using them to threaten the enemy backfield, but having them score is even more threatning I'd say.

A 25 pts Commissar tax really isn't much to deal with to be able to do that, I think.

 Sparkadia wrote:
I get that people really dig Conscripts, but I can't bring myself to take them, I'd rather take regular Guardsmen. Are regular Guardsmen from a IS really that much worse? I saw the Math above and its quite clear that they are worse when Prescience'd for their points cost. I know that lower points cost means more bodies means more map control means more redundancy, but I just don't love conscripts.

Is it just me?

Guardsmen if you want to give them some special/heavy weapons or split out the squads so you can have more scoring units. (Remember when they're split you can only lose 10 at a time, also they can hold multiple objectives, but they become a lot harder to prescience or order around then.)

 Sparkadia wrote:
I get that people really dig Conscripts, but I can't bring myself to take them, I'd rather take regular Guardsmen. Are regular Guardsmen from a IS really that much worse? I saw the Math above and its quite clear that they are worse when Prescience'd for their points cost. I know that lower points cost means more bodies means more map control means more redundancy, but I just don't love conscripts.

Is it just me?

Conscripts are an excellent way to apply pressure at multiple points on the map, fearless/stubborn mobs advancing on objectives are /look daunting.

Problem is you have to buy platoons in order to have them (<--- yes, If I could it would be conscripts/commissars with LRMBTs all around)

Its not that the PIS is BAD. they are still great. Its just conscripts do about the same, for less points.

The only bad thing in the platoon set up is heavy weapon squads, which are crap.

 Comrade wrote:

 Sparkadia wrote:
I get that people really dig Conscripts, but I can't bring myself to take them, I'd rather take regular Guardsmen. Are regular Guardsmen from a IS really that much worse? I saw the Math above and its quite clear that they are worse when Prescience'd for their points cost. I know that lower points cost means more bodies means more map control means more redundancy, but I just don't love conscripts.

Is it just me?

Conscripts are an excellent way to apply pressure at multiple points on the map, fearless/stubborn mobs advancing on objectives are /look daunting.

Problem is you have to buy platoons in order to have them (<--- yes, If I could it would be conscripts/commissars with LRMBTs all around)

Its not that the PIS is BAD. they are still great. Its just conscripts do about the same, for less points.

The only bad thing in the platoon set up is heavy weapon squads, which are crap.

Precisely . To me, the Platoon infantry squad is like tofu, if you know how to use it, you can do many many things with it.
veterans are an even more focused variation of guardsmen so im guna call them apples. there good for you, is part of a balanced meal, but one alone wont save the day or nothing
now conscripts on the other hand...... they are like peanuts, there not for everyone, can be a ton of fun ( every had a peanut fight? ) but you definitely can have too many of them, but the best part is
if you spill them all and they get all dirty to the point were you dont wana eat them anymore...its ok.....there just peanuts

im sorry if im bugging anyone. ive had one to many scotch's and im feeling glorious

Ill always take Veterans since I get BS4 Guardsmen for only 10pts. more then regular Guardsmen, and the fact it fits the fluff of my Airborne Army much better to have Veterans.

I missed the Commissar change somehow. I didn't realize the execution was an autopass. I think I'd still rather have a Priest, though. The re-rolls and IC status are pretty great, and I don't think Going to Ground is really a thing I'm going to want my Conscripts to do. If you plan on giving them orders, I suppose the Commissar is a better option also. I guess Commissars don't give up a kill point when killed (not an independent character), so that's a pretty compelling argument.

Also, I don't see how people aren't excited the Conscript-Priest (or -Commissar) combination. You're going to want something to advance on a midfield or further objective, 3 point per model dudes that are as good in close combat as regular guardsmen are perfect for the job. It's also perfect for anti-deathstar duty. I don't think you'll find 115 points that will outfight a unit of 30 conscripts + Priest.

 Bobthehero wrote:
Allying Scions could be fun, someone mentionned using them to threaten the enemy backfield, but having them score is even more threatning I'd say.

A 25 pts Commissar tax really isn't much to deal with to be able to do that, I think.

One thing worth mentioning is that MT and AM Commissars do not work on the other codex's units, as both need the unit to be from the same codex to execute. I think that a Scion command squad is a good buy anyway, that sniper order is awesome.

Yeah if you're getting conscripts its not for shooting. You're buying them as bubble wrap, bullet sponges, a tarpit, or an objective holder/IC wound counter. I personally wouldn't hold an objective with them when I have perfectly good platoons laying around, but I'm sure some wont pass up a 175pt ld 9 stubborn scoring unit with 51 models. They're the ultimate expendable unit. Why bother wasting perfectly good platoons when you can send conscripts instead? Using them for the nasty work frees up your vets and platoons to do the important stuff where their extra equipment and BS can shine.

As a foot guard guy, I'll probably be using a bit of everything. A platoon or two with conscripts for each, then fill out my FOC with dirt cheap carapace vets and then ally in some stormtroopers for gaks and giggles. Maybe I'll even try that SWS sniper squad thing. Basically I'll just overwhelm the enemy in scoring units with a bunch of tank support as gravy.

An aritcle I put together on AM troops, taking a lot of stuff from discussion in this thread:
http://antorsfinest.blogspot.co.uk/2014/04/spotlight-on-astra-militarium-troops.html

Might be helpful/interesting. If anyone has anything to add, or if I've missed something, then let me know and I'll edit it.

Pretty good overview. Does the Grenadiers doctrine really give Vets Krak Grenades in addition to their Carapace Armor? Did I completely miss that before?

Other notes:
You might want to hit on the difference in survivability between Commissar's and Priests.

You probably want to talk about Heavy Weapon Teams. They haven't changed much, and they're still not very good, but you should mention them. The only real new things you can do with them are adding Commissars. If you had two platoons and your CCS, you could make three lascannon teams Leadership 9 for 25 points each. This is still a pretty good lascannon per point ratio, and lets them make good use of orders, but doesn't really solve the durability issue.

We haven't discussed this yet, either, but there might be something to massed SWS, maybe 3 platoons, 6 infantry squads, and 9 SWS. You'd have a lot of short-range power for cheap, and it would be very difficult to take them all down. You'd have these deathstar lists struggling to dent your army at all because they just couldn't kill stuff that fast.

I'm pretty sure Grenadiers gives Kraks, but don't have the codex on me to check. If anyone could answer, that'd be great as I can edit it faster.

The reason I only touched on the Commissars/Priests debate is that I'm planning to do a separate article on the various support options both in and outside of the codex, so I'll look at it in more detail there.

I'll edit in a mention of the HWTs, I omitted them as I was more focusing on the changes rather than stuff that stayed the same, which HWTs basically did.

Mass-SWS seems interesting, but I think I'll leave that until it's discussed more. Personally, though, I think that Vets do largely the same but with better BS at the expense of sheer spammability. It's worth considering, though.

 Paradigm wrote:
I'm pretty sure Grenadiers gives Kraks, but don't have the codex on me to check. If anyone could answer, that'd be great as I can edit it faster.

It doesn't give krak grenades.

Oops, I'll edit that then. Cheers.

I don't think it really compares to vets. 9 SWS with flamers is 270 points. That's a little more than two equipped foot vet squads. I actually think they are complimentary to vets. Vets carry the plasma to attack hard targets. SWS carry flamers or whatever to harass and deny movement.

Platoons are nice in allied detachments because for 250-300 points you can put 6+ scoring units on the table that your opponent can't totally ignore and you're still only using up one troops slot.

Heck you could take 5 squads of vets and still have enough room in your force org for a platoon that double your scoring unit count.

Oh, I see, you were talking about cheap Flamer squads. In that case I agree entirely, I'd just hesitate to put plasma/melta on BS3 without the durability of a blob. But as the Fireball PCS is so good, and the SWS has only 1 flamer less, then yeah, that is a sound option.

I still don't get it though. People weren't taking SWSs before for a bunch of good reasons. Nothing changed except a couple of points saved on sniper rifles... the worst option.

Why are SWSs suddenly becoming all bee's knees?

 Ailaros wrote:
I still don't get it though. People weren't taking SWSs before for a bunch of good reasons. Nothing changed except a couple of points saved on sniper rifles... the worst option.

Why are SWSs suddenly becoming all bee's knees?

They are actually 5 points cheaper and you can bring up to 3 of them per platoon. Also, they are 6 strong so they are good for the Vendetta.

I am a fan of conscript blobs, great for bubble wrapping objectives and other such things.

I was looking at a unit of 20-30 guardsmen in a blob with autocannons and then a unit of 50 conscripts.

Two priests, two primaris and a inquisitor and yarrik.

Inquisotor, priest, and yarrik go in the conscripts with a primaris. Primaris and other priest goes in the guardsman.

AtoMaki wrote:They are actually 5 points cheaper and you can bring up to 3 of them per platoon. Also, they are 6 strong so they are good for the Vendetta.

It's only 5 points, and I don't know if I ever saw someone bring TWO per platoon. That wasn't holding people back before. And they could always fit in a vendetta.

It looks like there's nothing new but attitude.

Biophysical wrote:
You probably want to talk about Heavy Weapon Teams. They haven't changed much, and they're still not very good, but you should mention them. The only real new things you can do with them are adding Commissars. If you had two platoons and your CCS, you could make three lascannon teams Leadership 9 for 25 points each. This is still a pretty good lascannon per point ratio, and lets them make good use of orders, but doesn't really solve the durability issue.

Or give them a Primaris who can Prescience them every turn and let them pass orders more easily.

And the problem with HWSs was never leadership, it was durability.

Adding a commissar to an HWS means that you'll get a dead commissar and a dead HWS after a single round of shooting, rather than just a dead HWS.

For 108 points you get 3 scoring units that can hang back and force shorter range armies to push hard if they want to prevent you from scoring. At 36 points, the effort the enemy has to go through to take them out is more than they cost you.

 Ailaros wrote:
And the problem with HWSs was never leadership, it was durability.

The leadership complaints where always about their problems passing Orders consistantly, which was my point actually.

 Ailaros wrote:
Adding a commissar to an HWS means that you'll get a dead commissar and a dead HWS after a single round of shooting, rather than just a dead HWS.

Depending on what's shooting at them and if they can go to ground or not, yes that's possible. But that's possible with almost every single thing in the codex so why only apply that to just the HWS?

The problem is that it's easier with HWSs than with any other non-IC unit in the codex. Which is really bad, given that they're likely going to be pretty high on your opponent's priority list, given that they have decent killing power and are so easy to kill.

HWSs haven't been all that much more than first blood bait for awhile now.

If you really wanted to get those orders passed better, I'd actually say take creed now, as that's one of the few ways in which he got better.

Strongly looking at making a vet squad with forward sentries and a missile launcher w/ flakk to sit with my aegis defense line and man the quad gun. Provides an effective anti-air unit that can also threaten other targets and benefit from orders. Possibly add a commissar to make sure all the orders stick.

Ignore Cover order on the quad gun vs Tau vehicles? I want to see that in action.

 Ailaros wrote:
The problem is that it's easier with HWSs than with any other non-IC unit in the codex. Which is really bad, given that they're likely going to be pretty high on your opponent's priority list, given that they have decent killing power and are so easy to kill.

HWSs haven't been all that much more than first blood bait for awhile now.

If you really wanted to get those orders passed better, I'd actually say take creed now, as that's one of the few ways in which he got better.

Yea I haven't understood the SWS or the HWS acclaim either. The best argument put forward for SWS was cheap scoring which isn't really an issue with guard to begin with and HWS are still too fragile, you want ablative wounds, and since blob squads have access to the same HW list and come with said wounds its almost always better if not always to just bring a blob with hidden HWS.

For me, the SWS interest is more about exploring new options with a new codex. To try and toss away old notions and reanalyze to see what can be done. There's been a number of things that have changed since I last really thought about them, so I'm trying to do so now.

Good things about them from the codex:
5 points cheaper: Which on such a cheap squad starts mattering if you use a lot of them, which you now can, because...
3 per platoon: You can actually have a lot of them if you want to, so it's worth trying to imagine what happens if you do take a lot of them.

Frag grenades and cheap sniper rifles are also neat little changes that don't do much, but are nice.

Basically, 50 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of MEQs was only okay in a few instances. 45 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of Fire Warriors, Guardians, Riptides, and Wraithknights starts being something you consider more seriously.

Biophysical wrote:
45 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of Fire Warriors, Guardians, Riptides, and Wraithknights starts being something you consider more seriously.

O-M-G... Grenade launchers versus Riptides or Wraithknights...

I'm speechless !

Biophysical wrote:
For me, the SWS interest is more about exploring new options with a new codex. To try and toss away old notions and reanalyze to see what can be done. There's been a number of things that have changed since I last really thought about them, so I'm trying to do so now.

Good things about them from the codex:
5 points cheaper: Which on such a cheap squad starts mattering if you use a lot of them, which you now can, because...
3 per platoon: You can actually have a lot of them if you want to, so it's worth trying to imagine what happens if you do take a lot of them.

Frag grenades and cheap sniper rifles are also neat little changes that don't do much, but are nice.

Basically, 50 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of MEQs was only okay in a few instances. 45 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of Fire Warriors, Guardians, Riptides, and Wraithknights starts being something you consider more seriously.

There we go, the magic words. New options with a new codex.

I use 3 HWS; 1 mortar, 1 autocannons, 1 lascannons. mortar hide behind cover and plob shells from above, harrassing my opponent, and holding on an objective to free an IS.
auto/las cannons take out vehicles and infantry as need be. And with 48 inch range, most, if not all, enemy models must come clsoer, giving me 1-2 turn of shooting at them...Worse case, what? Those Havocs shoot my lascannons teams? Big woop, they get pie plated next turn with my Russ or gun down with my 4 IS packing heavy weapons and special weapons as well...

I giggle with the idea of the ordo Hereictus inquisitor with Rad and psy gernades with 30 guards men that are hammerhanded, that reroll to hit and wound.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
45 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of Fire Warriors, Guardians, Riptides, and Wraithknights starts being something you consider more seriously.

O-M-G... Grenade launchers versus Riptides or Wraithknights...

I'm speechless !

No, Grenade Launchers and Flamers vs the squishy scoring troops in those armies. Try to use a little sense.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sargow wrote:
I giggle with the idea of the ordo Hereictus inquisitor with Rad and psy gernades with 30 guards men that are hammerhanded, that reroll to hit and wound.

I've done that a bit. Didn't like it that much overall. I'd still rather shoot, and Prescience pretty much did enough in that regard.

Biophysical wrote:

 AtoMaki wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
45 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of Fire Warriors, Guardians, Riptides, and Wraithknights starts being something you consider more seriously.

O-M-G... Grenade launchers versus Riptides or Wraithknights...
https://31.media.tumblr.com/89aba9eaff088217e835e9d076595483/tumblr_inline_mzo0qb5KtP1sx9thy.jpg
I'm speechless !

No, Grenade Launchers and Flamers vs the squishy scoring troops in those armies. Try to use a little sense.

I'll give you the flamers, they are good, but grenade launchers? Really? Fire Warriors have better range, cover and/or numbers. Guardians have GL-proof transports and/or numbers. Nobody cares if your 5 grenade launchers somehow manage to kill one FW or Guardian (krak round vs 4+ cover) - or scrap some termagaunts or cultists with frags. It is like fighting Plague Marines with hotshot volley guns...

 Trickstick wrote:

 Bobthehero wrote:
Allying Scions could be fun, someone mentionned using them to threaten the enemy backfield, but having them score is even more threatning I'd say.

A 25 pts Commissar tax really isn't much to deal with to be able to do that, I think.

One thing worth mentioning is that MT and AM Commissars do not work on the other codex's units, as both need the unit to be from the same codex to execute. I think that a Scion command squad is a good buy anyway, that sniper order is awesome.

Can you give the orders to the Scions if they're allies?

Regardless, if taking a platoon of Scions allows you to ally it, might as well do it and use that.

 AtoMaki wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
45 points for 3 flamers or grenade launchers in a world of Fire Warriors, Guardians, Riptides, and Wraithknights starts being something you consider more seriously.

O-M-G... Grenade launchers versus Riptides or Wraithknights...

I'm speechless !

Yeah, so he talks down sniper rifles that wound those things on a 4+ and rend on a 6 in favor of things that only wound some of those things on a 6, and the rifles get better range and a chance at sniping the enemy's special weapons... Oh and they cost less and can stand at a safer distance. They're not great, but they're cheap enough to be filler.

 AtoMaki wrote:
I'll give you the flamers, they are good, but grenade launchers? Really? Fire Warriors have better range, cover and/or numbers. Guardians have GL-proof transports and/or numbers. Nobody cares if your 5 grenade launchers somehow manage to kill one FW or Guardian (krak round vs 4+ cover) - or scrap some termagaunts or cultists with frags. It is like fighting Plague Marines with hotshot volley guns...

Grenade Launchers are questionable, that's why I'm thinking about them. In a SWS, they're basically the small arm. Imagine you could pay 15 points for a 2 wound Eternal Warrior guardsman with a Grenade Launcher. It's not terrible, and it's possible that enough of them can do something useful for the points. That's what I'm trying to figure out. There are changes in the meta and the codex since I last thought about them, so I'm doing it again. Anyway, the real point isn't that you really want Grenade Launchers, what you want is lots of units so the power units of the opposing army can't really stop you from doing what you want to do. You could take sniper rifles, but then you can't move, you could take flamers, but then you can't do anything unless you get close. Grenade Launchers are the other cheap option. If you're going to do an MSU swarm, SWS are the toothiest version of that approach. The line of thinking is that a big enemy unit is going to wipe a squad anyway, so why not trade a few bodies for some points and a few weapons?

Ever watched a Triptide army putting Ion Accelerator blasts into single squads of Guardsmen? It's pretty funny. When they scatter, it's freaking hilarious.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mavnas wrote:

Yeah, so he talks down sniper rifles that wound those things on a 4+ and rend on a 6 in favor of things that only wound some of those things on a 6, and the rifles get better range and a chance at sniping the enemy's special weapons... Oh and they cost less and can stand at a safer distance. They're not great, but they're cheap enough to be filler.

Who's talking down Sniper Rifles?

Biophysical wrote:
The line of thinking is that a big enemy unit is going to wipe a squad anyway, so why not trade a few bodies for some points and a few weapons?

And exactly this is where the GL squad fails. Because the enemy will just ignore it as its abysmal damage output won't matter in the greater scheme of things. You need 5 (five!!!) krak grenades to kill 1 (one!!!) Fire Warriors. That's 25 points for 9! And you should feel lucky if you even get in range because the Fire Warrior can just blast the guardsman away from 30" and call it a day.

And taking lots of GLs won't solve the problem as it will be just even more points down in the drain that will eventually lash back to the rest of your army. Y'know, to the units that can actually do something worthwhile.

If you want S6 AP4 and blasts so badly then take an Eradicator. For the cost of 2+1/2 GL SWS you will get a whole tank with 36" range and all the S6 AP4 Large Blast (+Ignores Cover) love you would ever need!

Biophysical wrote:

Ever watched a Triptide army putting Ion Accelerator blasts into single squads of Guardsmen?

Nah. Never. Though I've seen more guardsman squads melt in pulse rifle fire than I would care to count.

Mavnas wrote:

Yeah, so he talks down sniper rifles that wound those things on a 4+ and rend on a 6 in favor of things that only wound some of those things on a 6, and the rifles get better range and a chance at sniping the enemy's special weapons... Oh and they cost less and can stand at a safer distance. They're not great, but they're cheap enough to be filler.

Who's talking down Sniper Rifles?

 AtoMaki wrote:

Biophysical wrote:
The line of thinking is that a big enemy unit is going to wipe a squad anyway, so why not trade a few bodies for some points and a few weapons?

And exactly this is where the GL squad fails. Because the enemy will just ignore it as its abysmal damage output won't matter in the greater scheme of things. You need 5 (five!!!) krak grenades to kill 1 (one!!!) Fire Warriors. That's 25 points for 9! And you should feel lucky if you even get in range because the Fire Warrior can just blast the guardsman away from 30" and call it a day.

And taking lots of GLs won't solve the problem as it will be just even more points down in the drain that will eventually lash back to the rest of your army. Y'know, to the units that can actually do something worthwhile.

If you want S6 AP4 and blasts so badly then take an Eradicator. For the cost of 2+1/2 GL SWS you will get a whole tank with 36" range and all the S6 AP4 Large Blast (+Ignores Cover) love you would ever need!

Biophysical wrote:

Ever watched a Triptide army putting Ion Accelerator blasts into single squads of Guardsmen?

Nah. Never. Though I've seen more guardsman squads melt in pulse rifle fire than I would care to count.

I guess we've played against different Tau armies, then. The ones I tend to see have a ton of points in Riptides and Broadsides, with a handful of Fire Warriors that they keep hidden to keep them alive and score objectives. The Grenade Launchers just give you some range and flexibility to hit targets of opportunity. I fully concede that in the right circumstances, Flamers and Sniper Rifles are going to be optimal, but both have their own set of limitations. I don't think Grenade Launchers are great, or anything, but they can force saves on stuff in a pretty wide area of influence, while moving. Anyway, the whole point of MSU isn't offensive power, but lots of scoring units that are cheap and might occasionally do something.

Here's another approach I've been thinking about, sort of the "hunter-killer team" idea.
9 SWS with Plasma gun, Melta gun, Flamer = 540 points
3 PCS with sniper rifles + bolter = 117
6 Infantry Squads with Lascannons = 420

1077 points
18 scoring units
6 Lascannons
12 Sniper Rifles
9 Plasma Guns
9 Meltaguns
9 Flamers


It goes against everything that is preached in 40k about specialization, but it does mean that you've got a matrix of these 60 point squads that can cause damage to nearly anything. None of your capability can be knocked out all at once. Just an idea.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mavnas wrote:
Either way, I really wish they could take camo gear so they could be a real scout squad (or that I could take 5 in s vet squad).

I'd be a fan of that.

I think the wyvern does the job of mortars and GL better, though it's not scoring.

Fun fact: least likely single shot outcome I can imagine in 40k right now is a sniper rifle stripping a hull point from a zooming Helldrake.

Mavnas wrote:
I think the wyvern does the job of mortars and GL better, though it's not scoring.

Fun fact: least likely single shot outcome I can imagine in 40k right now is a sniper rifle stripping a hull point from a zooming Helldrake.

Now imagine the Heldrake buffed with the Grimoire so it has a 3++.

I used to use sniper teams and grenade teams in my DWVs. They were cheap, but a good buff to the unit when taken in large amounts. Now that grenade launchers are equal to a guardsman, you have to question if another trooper is better or not.

Snipers are cheap, have 36' range and wound on 4+. For 138 pts I can have 12. They can be given monster hunter or ignores cover via orders, and are a troops choice. They will do one wound on a Riptide a turn, hardly OP, but annoying, and the Tau must waste 3 turns to wipe them out with the riptide.

Since you can't consolidate into new combat, string them in front of HWT, or normal squads. 6 guardsmen will die to pretty much anything in CC in one turn. Leaving your opponent in double tap FRFSRF range on your turn.

Or give them demo charges, have them rush in Tauroxes/Valks towards the Tau lines. Boom.

Ooo..

I think Sniper SWS might work well with the Aquilla? Maybe?

Razerous wrote:
Ooo..

I think Sniper SWS might work well with the Aquilla? Maybe?

(Assuming you mean Kurov's Aquila, not some weird fortification or something):

I don't think so. I think the sniper teams will usually be better served deployed separately from the bulk of your force, which is where you obviously want the Aquila to be. If the point of the snipers is to be some dopey little unit that your opponent has to either ignore or waste time and effort to kill, I think they need to be a bit farther away. By being close they can easily be part of a jetbike/beast pack multi-charge, or they can be incidental casualties of TFC or Wyvern barrages. By keeping them a bit further away, you can force the unit that kills them to be at slightly out of position to attack the rest of your firebase.

Yeah, nothing at all has changed about the grenade launcher. I don't see why it would be any more worth considering now than it was before.

At least sniper rifles MIGHT do something. Not that they're going to do much anyways.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, nothing at all has changed about the grenade launcher. I don't see why it would be any more worth considering now than it was before.

At least sniper rifles MIGHT do something. Not that they're going to do much anyways.

I do use a PCS with a vox and 3 GL, and while they don't always do something (I mostly use that PCS for order giving and objective holding, compared to my other PCS with 3 flamers for counter-assault) the fact that I do have 3 str6 AP4 shots prove worth it in my meta, where I face numerous CSM and Orks. Against their light vehicles, after autocannons and other dedicated weapons, the fact that I could manage to remove a hull point made the difference between being assaulted come next turn or having another turn to gun down the now walking Ork/CSM troopers. And in the case of an explosion results, well, they're already in pie plate formation so (small) blast away!

Well, and I can almost see a PCS like this, because PCSs are mandatory to get the platoon. Why you'd go out of your way to buy a SWS with such crummy firepower, though...

I mean, at least the PCS can take a lascannon, rather than just bouncing a few low-strength autocannon shots off of armor saves and vehicle plating.

 AtoMaki wrote:
You need 5 (five!!!) krak grenades to kill 1 (one!!!) Fire Warriors. That's 25 points for 9! And you should feel lucky if you even get in range because the Fire Warrior can just blast the guardsman away from 30" and call it a day.

At an average of 3 hits per shot, you need 4/3 frag grenades to kill 1 Fire Warrior. Not amazing, but something to consider.

GL are way to expensive for what they do, especially when you take into account the cost reduction in sniper rifles.

36" range means the MSU squads can do something pretty much every turn.

3 Sniper rifles will average 0.75 wounds per turn. 1/3 of wounds will be rends, 1/3 will be directed hits, and 1/9 will be rending directed hits.

Multiply that by 3 squads and it's 2.25 wounds from 3 separate squads. That easily has the potential to force 2 pin checks in a single turn. Not bad for 102 points of guardsmen in 3 MSU scoring units.

Against squads like fire warriors/path finders in cover in 4+ cover that will average 1.25 pin checks per turn and in 3 out of 4 turns a wound will be dumped onto the squad leader.

Against riptides and wraith knights 102 points of SWS is better than 150 points of AC HWS. Sniper rifles were built to hit T8 wraith knights, and T6 riptides have a 1/6 chance of failing a pin test.

I've had another thought; to make proper use of the 2x lasgun arrays, you need 6 guys with nothing better to do. 6 lasguns must equal a single fire point?

Razerous wrote:
I've had another thought; to make proper use of the 2x lasgun arrays, you need 6 guys with nothing better to do. 6 lasguns must equal a single fire point?

pretty sure the array doesn't count against/as a fire point.

 alarmingrick wrote:

Razerous wrote:
I've had another thought; to make proper use of the 2x lasgun arrays, you need 6 guys with nothing better to do. 6 lasguns must equal a single fire point?

pretty sure the array doesn't count against/as a fire point.

but its replaced a fire point from the last dex.

Razerous wrote:

 alarmingrick wrote:

Razerous wrote:
I've had another thought; to make proper use of the 2x lasgun arrays, you need 6 guys with nothing better to do. 6 lasguns must equal a single fire point?

pretty sure the array doesn't count against/as a fire point.

but its replaced a fire point from the last dex.

Oh, derp! My bad, I gotcha.