So, with the release of the FAQ and all, do you thing CSM lost on this new edition or did it make them better? Why/how? I am not seeing too many upsides aside from summoning daemons, stronger vehicles and maybe Arhiman's staff.

They nerfed Helldrakes. CSMs are dooooooomed.

p8ntba1141ife wrote:
So, with the release of the FAQ and all, do you thing CSM lost on this new edition or did it make them better? Why/how? I am not seeing too many upsides aside from summoning daemons, stronger vehicles and maybe Arhiman's staff.

summoning daemons, get periled to death
stronger vehicles, I guess forgefiends and maulerfiends are better
Arhiman, overprice sorceror who had 5 powers, but 2-3 of them are worthless tzzeench powers


Maulerfiends are in fact better, not because they are more difficult to blow up, because now with magmacutters they will own MCs without str8+

Cyphers chosen dataslate is still awesome

Unmarked sorcerers are great. 4 powers, reroll casting attempts for cheap. Great stuff.

Spell Familiars are huge in 7th.

Kyutaru wrote:
They nerfed Helldrakes. CSMs are dooooooomed.

Not nerfed.
No.

They are obliterated, scorched beyond all reckoning.
Gone.

The overall nerf to vector strikes would have balanced them.
The change to their LoS slammed them down.
170 pts is too much to pay for what's left of the once mighty (admittedly broken) Heldrake.

 cbteom wrote:

Kyutaru wrote:
They nerfed Helldrakes. CSMs are dooooooomed.

Not nerfed.
No.

They are obliterated, scorched beyond all reckoning.
Gone.

The overall nerf to vector strikes would have balanced them.
The change to their LoS slammed them down.
170 pts is too much to pay for what's left of the once mighty (admittedly broken) Heldrake.

More room for the amazing Spawns and Bikes Along with the boosts to unmarked Sorcerors they should be quite good still.

What exactly changed aside from them ONLY releasing the new FAQs and reworked wording of past Errata failures?

Last I checked the old Erratas are still coming out later this week..

the helldrake is dead...

awesome I never bought one and now people with skill can play chaos without being criticised for "its not got 3 drake ergo it sucks"

things that died
drake
daemon prince
quad guns

thing infused with the unholy power of the 7th edition rules
psyker bio price, S9 T8 princes kick ass
all vehicles (you will not be mocked for bringing a brute, heck im even thinking of blowing the dust off my defiler)
sorcerers
ahirman


frankly I am enjoying the change and we got off lightly

Tyranids are completely trashed due to the MC nerf, and they weren't that strong to begin with

Ork anti armour is now useless as they are forced to glance things to death,

Tau and necrons to a lesser extent facing a rough time as heavy psyker lists become prevalent, noticing the lil blue guys are uncomfortable with the ultramarine player and his recently acquired collection of daemons, necrons being necrons are actually profiting form chariot changes and monoliths are now indestructible rape machines once more.

Everyone wants daemons to summon but as chaos we typically include some in our lists already, I don't know about you lot but I already have daemons knocking about, which is lucky as my GW store has sold out, theme is "one 7th edition rules and a box o Daemons"

the change to challenges greatly improves combat characters. also less likely to be stomped to death

Is the drake completely dead? not even autocannon ?

Maybe, just maybe, Defilers are worth taking now..


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 ashikenshin wrote:
Is the drake completely dead? not even autocannon ?

Autocannon drake is still the best, if not only anti air option.

Ah, that feel of being halfway through building two Heldrakes over the past few weeks only to see their rules piledrived by our friends at GW. Today hasn't been a fun day.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Maybe, just maybe, Defilers are worth taking now..


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ashikenshin wrote:
Is the drake completely dead? not even autocannon ?

Autocannon drake is still the best, if not only anti air option.

But was still hurt quite badly by the change from turret to hull mounted. No more shooting rear armor, no more vector strike then shoot same thing to finish it off.

I'd like to point out that in the Crimson Slaughter Supplement there's the Prophet of the Voices artefact. It grants the Daemon USR, among others. Give it to a ML3 Sorc, take a Spell Familiar aaand...

The change to Vector Strike has already prompted me to consider using my Heldrake for Anti-Vehicle/Anti-Flyer. I think I'm gonna swap its Baleflamer for Hades Autocannon and call it a day. Anyway, there's possibility that the FAQ might be updated to include lots of clarifications it used to have before, so perhaps wait a few days before you sell out your turkeys?

Smash nerf + change to Vehicle Damage Chart = my Decimator Daemon Engine wants some tasty TMCs for breakfast.

The ADL Quad-gun's nerf made me sad. I can live with that, though (see Heldrake above).

For those of us who never bothered to use more than 1 Drake anyway, I don't feel it's that much of a nerf. The army wasn't built to rely on drakes, and them becoming Not OP just makes my friends hate me less when I pull out my army.

With our awesome Sorcs, 1K sons becoming maybe back in style, all our daemon engines becoming more durable, etc, I think we're in a decent place.
I won my first 7th game vs Tau, anyway.
(lol Nwabudikemorgan if you see this yes your list wasn't crazy competitive, but neither was mine)

p8ntba1141ife wrote:
So, with the release of the FAQ and all, do you thing CSM lost on this new edition or did it make them better? Why/how? I am not seeing too many upsides aside from summoning daemons, stronger vehicles and maybe Arhiman's staff.

as mentioned Tsons do get a huge buff. Which takes them from horrendously bad to casual.

The sorc now gets 2 tzeench powers and he can fire them at a different unit than the Tsons use their bolters on.

Most of my Chaos Space Marine battles do in fact end in a Win or Lose.

What was nerfed about the Quad Gun?

 Lord Krungharr wrote:
What was nerfed about the Quad Gun?

If you have Skyfire you now snapfire against non-Flyers/FMC/Skimmers. The only benefit of Interceptor is the out of sequence shooting attack. It gives no bonuses against ground based targets.

I would like to know how the free primaris power for marked sorcs interacts with the minimum and the maximum one can roll on a god table. Either the freebie counts toward neither and you're stuck with a roll on a god table plus that table's primaris. Alternatively, it counts for both meaning the freebie fulfills your obligation to the mark, but also meaning that anything below a ML3 psyker cannot get anything but the primaris on the god tables as you can't generate more than half your powers from it. Its real funky, I wish they'd just remove the restrictions. The powers are entirely underwhelming anyway.

While Ahriman got a buff (maybe) Typhus I feel has suffered from the new Psychic phase. He's stuck on the Nurgle chart with only d6 +2 Charges.It will be pretty easy to dispel him, and dispel his Force weapon. I'm trying to figure if Zombies even matter for us anymore...

1. Unbound army.
2. Take Typhus.
3. Make sure there isn't too much dakka.
4. Take a million zombies.
5. Troll.

 Exergy wrote:

p8ntba1141ife wrote:
So, with the release of the FAQ and all, do you thing CSM lost on this new edition or did it make them better? Why/how? I am not seeing too many upsides aside from summoning daemons, stronger vehicles and maybe Arhiman's staff.

as mentioned Tsons do get a huge buff. Which takes them from horrendously bad to casual.

The sorc now gets 2 tzeench powers and he can fire them at a different unit than the Tsons use their bolters on.

1k Sons are indeed better now.
Their main problem was their cost, lack of heavy weapons and immobility due to slow and purposeful.
The only solution to the slow problem was using metal boxes, which would blow up and fail.
The changes to the vehicle damage table definitely improves their playability here.
They also play nicely into the new Psyker heavy armies thanks to their ML1 Aspiring Sorceror (which is still, sadly, stuck with the Tzeentchian primaris).

My 3 boxes of 1k Sons bitz likes this.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
While Ahriman got a buff (maybe) Typhus I feel has suffered from the new Psychic phase. He's stuck on the Nurgle chart with only d6 +2 Charges.It will be pretty easy to dispel him, and dispel his Force weapon. I'm trying to figure if Zombies even matter for us anymore...

I've not used Typhus in ages I've instead been using Necrosius from the latest imperial armour apoc book, less points and he also provides zombies, as well as giving them furious charge, depends how FW friendly your area is though.

Daemon Engine Spam is a thing.

Helbrute
Defiler
HadesDrake
Forgefiend

This is actually quite powerful. You just annihilate droves with shooting. Autocannons tend to be the go to weapon here.

Make sure to take a Warpsmith.

Just don't use Typhus for his powers and use him for zombies. His weapon means he probably won't have to use force anyway, anything which can survive up to 10 S6 AP2 attacks is probably a silly thing to charge anyway.

Still waiting for an update for Necrosius ><

Deathwhisper wrote:
Still waiting for an update for Necrosius ><

I don't see anything about the profile in Imperial Armour Apoc that needs updating, that version was created in 6th after the release of the current CSM dex, none of his rules have been invalidated by 7th.

Edit: Just to be super clear, Page 151 of 2013's Imperial Armour Apocalypse (the one with a red chaos reaver on the cover), has a 6th edition profile of Necrosius on it.

For the points cost of a daemon prince of tzeentch with no addons you get a WS+BS 5 S4 T5 W3 I5 A3 Ld10 chaos character in power armour, with a force sword, bolt pistol with 4+ poison, krak, frag and blight grenades. Then the lovely list of special rules IC, Champion of chaos, VotLW, Fearless, FNP, MoN, Plague Zombies (see C:CSM Pg 61), Master of the dead, Psyker ML2, Warlord.

Necrosius knows Nurgle's Rot, Gift of contagion and has the warp charge 1 power wasting disease, 24" S3 AP2 Assault 1, Fleshbane, focused witchfire that requires no roll to hit and automatically hits the target you choose.

Master of the dead grants furious charge to zombies taken from C:CSM and to zombies from the renegades and heretics list servants of decay. Warlord trait is everything within 12" of him has to use lowest leadership for everything.

If typing out all that breaks some rule feel free to delete it!

Puscifer wrote:
Daemon Engine Spam is a thing.

Helbrute
Defiler
HadesDrake
Forgefiend

This is actually quite powerful. You just annihilate droves with shooting. Autocannons tend to be the go to weapon here.

Make sure to take a Warpsmith.

Funny, I tried something similar a month ago and was laughed at for trying such a silly list.
Quite a change in tack, made possible by a few rules changes.

I never used Helldrakes, but i will now. I hate being that guy that always fields a broken unit.

Doesn't seem like typhus got a nerf. He can cast up to 3 powers a turn. He can target different units. Whats not to like about a level 2 sorcerer/warlord with a daemon weapon.

1000 sons got a nice bump too.

JubbJubbz wrote:
I would like to know how the free primaris power for marked sorcs interacts with the minimum and the maximum one can roll on a god table. Either the freebie counts toward neither and you're stuck with a roll on a god table plus that table's primaris. Alternatively, it counts for both meaning the freebie fulfills your obligation to the mark, but also meaning that anything below a ML3 psyker cannot get anything but the primaris on the god tables as you can't generate more than half your powers from it. Its real funky, I wish they'd just remove the restrictions. The powers are entirely underwhelming anyway.

I believe it is the former, and unfortuneatly that still makes marking your sorc worse than leaving him plain.

first 7th game today, and I brung the defiler, I won against nids who hadn't quite caught up with the new rules, he charged defiler with trygon, missed with his 1 smash attack and defiler ripped his limbs off in return...

I feel really bad for nid players right now

I played my first game of 7th yesterday, 1000pts vs tau.

I fielded a warpsmith, 2 units of 20 cultists, 2 helbrutes, a mauler fiend, a forge fiend and an obliterator.

Ended up 7-4 in my favour as the daemon engines and brutes ran amok through his lines while the cultists scored midfield objectives.

Great game and nice to see often neglected chaos units getting their chance to shine.

I am looking at the heldrake as a viable not over the top option now it has been brought back into line a bit.

dual flamer brute = best scoring unit

reason, no one with objective secured will come near you for fear of your warm embrace

 rohansoldier wrote:
I played my first game of 7th yesterday, 1000pts vs tau.

I fielded a warpsmith, 2 units of 20 cultists, 2 helbrutes, a mauler fiend, a forge fiend and an obliterator.

Ended up 7-4 in my favour as the daemon engines and brutes ran amok through his lines while the cultists scored midfield objectives.

Great game and nice to see often neglected chaos units getting their chance to shine.

I am looking at the heldrake as a viable not over the top option now it has been brought back into line a bit.

Mmmm... I am thinking the future of CSMs lies in lists like these, plus psykers to buff the fiends. Laying down 16 rerollable autocannon shots per turn is pretty rough against most armies.

Yup. Daemon Engines and Brutes are the way forward.

Black Legion Autocannon Spam could also work well.

 sennacherib wrote:
I never used Helldrakes, but i will now. I hate being that guy that always fields a broken unit.

Doesn't seem like typhus got a nerf. He can cast up to 3 powers a turn. He can target different units. Whats not to like about a level 2 sorcerer/warlord with a daemon weapon.

I wouldn't call it a nerf, but I don't think he'll be casting 3 powers a turn unless he's you're only psyker. He doesn't bring enough dice to the pool to pull them off, especially the plague wind which is extremely mediocre for being WC2.

1000 sons got a nice bump too.

I think this will largely depend on if its determined if the free primaris counts as your minimum on the tzeentch table. If not they are right back where they started. If so they can pick on... well unlike every other psyker in the book it doesn't spell out which tables aspiring sorcs can pick from. I guess you go with the general rule for the book which is bio/telep/pyro which means they'll probably be taking telep every time.

JubbJubbz wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:
I never used Helldrakes, but i will now. I hate being that guy that always fields a broken unit.

Doesn't seem like typhus got a nerf. He can cast up to 3 powers a turn. He can target different units. Whats not to like about a level 2 sorcerer/warlord with a daemon weapon.

I wouldn't call it a nerf, but I don't think he'll be casting 3 powers a turn unless he's you're only psyker. He doesn't bring enough dice to the pool to pull them off, especially the plague wind which is extremely mediocre for being WC2.

1000 sons got a nice bump too.

I think this will largely depend on if its determined if the free primaris counts as your minimum on the tzeentch table. If not they are right back where they started. If so they can pick on... well unlike every other psyker in the book it doesn't spell out which tables aspiring sorcs can pick from. I guess you go with the general rule for the book which is bio/telep/pyro which means they'll probably be taking telep every time.

Since you can fire multiple witchfires in the psychic phase and at diffrent targets, I'd say it's a pretty big buff to 1k sons, even if the power you generate have to come from the Tzeentch table

 Limbo wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:

 sennacherib wrote:

1000 sons got a nice bump too.

I think this will largely depend on if its determined if the free primaris counts as your minimum on the tzeentch table. If not they are right back where they started. If so they can pick on... well unlike every other psyker in the book it doesn't spell out which tables aspiring sorcs can pick from. I guess you go with the general rule for the book which is bio/telep/pyro which means they'll probably be taking telep every time.

Since you can fire multiple witchfires in the psychic phase and at diffrent targets, I'd say it's a pretty big buff to 1k sons, even if the power you generate have to come from the Tzeentch table

It's a bump none the less. Aspiring sorcs use to get 1 power, now they get 2. They use to have to fire at the same target as the unit, now they can fire at a different unit.

The chaos demon FAQ changed the wording on herlads removing primary meaning T-sons can now ally in 4 lvl3 heralds which is pretty huge. Or take an exalted flamer. Prescience is now harder to cast but having access through cheap heralds is nice, makes 3 forge fiends a thing.

After reading all this, I can't say I'm too thrilled about the drake I ordered the other day!! XD

NathanD298 wrote:
After reading all this, I can't say I'm too thrilled about the drake I ordered the other day!! XD

They aren't that worse off. They just aren't the noob canon they were, you'll have to actually have a planned flight path heaven forbid. they also gained the ability to roast models in open topped transports which is awesome.

 Limbo wrote:

Since you can fire multiple witchfires in the psychic phase and at diffrent targets, I'd say it's a pretty big buff to 1k sons, even if the power you generate have to come from the Tzeentch table

Are they not limited to still only firing one power since they are ML1?

 Exergy wrote:

It's a bump none the less. Aspiring sorcs use to get 1 power, now they get 2. They use to have to fire at the same target as the unit, now they can fire at a different unit.

The thing is, the tzeentch primaris is so bad, I wouldn't even want to waste a single die on it. Let alone two to give it a good chance to succeed. Similarly mutation is so bad I never wanted to cast it in the first place. Finally, breath is far from worth 2WC unless you happen to get close to terminators, not really where rubrics want to be anyway. So to me, if they have to roll on tzeentch, they are still 'doombolt or forgettable'. Being able to shoot doombolt at a separate target is definitely a bump. If they can roll on telep on the otherhand... its a game changer for 1ksons.

JubbJubbz wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

It's a bump none the less. Aspiring sorcs use to get 1 power, now they get 2. They use to have to fire at the same target as the unit, now they can fire at a different unit.

The thing is, the tzeentch primaris is so bad, I wouldn't even want to waste a single die on it. Let alone two to give it a good chance to succeed. Similarly mutation is so bad I never wanted to cast it in the first place. Finally, breath is far from worth 2WC unless you happen to get close to terminators, not really where rubrics want to be anyway. So to me, if they have to roll on tzeentch, they are still 'doombolt or forgettable'. Being able to shoot doombolt at a separate target is definitely a bump. If they can roll on telep on the otherhand... its a game changer for 1ksons.

I mean I never said Tsons were good, they are pretty terrible. But pretty terrible is a hell of a lot better than where they use to be.

 Exergy wrote:

I mean I never said Tsons were good, they are pretty terrible. But pretty terrible is a hell of a lot better than where they use to be.

I think they could be pretty solid if they can roll on other tables. If they can't... they are pretty well exactly the same as they are now.

JubbJubbz wrote:

 Limbo wrote:

Since you can fire multiple witchfires in the psychic phase and at diffrent targets, I'd say it's a pretty big buff to 1k sons, even if the power you generate have to come from the Tzeentch table

Are they not limited to still only firing one power since they are ML1?

Up for debate
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/597151.page#6876904

 Limbo wrote:

JubbJubbz wrote:

 Limbo wrote:

Since you can fire multiple witchfires in the psychic phase and at diffrent targets, I'd say it's a pretty big buff to 1k sons, even if the power you generate have to come from the Tzeentch table

Are they not limited to still only firing one power since they are ML1?

Up for debate
http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/60/597151.page#6876904

hah, thanks, I'm not touching that thread. Looks like one of those YMDC's that will go on indefinitely neither side contributing anything constructive. I guess I'll hope for updated faqs, I sincerely hope the return Abaddon's immunity to spawndom/ascension.

Funny that this happens just after I finished drake reinforcements for Apocalypse. Just as planned!

Maybe you'll get a chuckle out of this as well:

 Stephanius wrote:
Funny that this happens just after I finished drake reinforcements for Apocalypse. Just as planned!

Maybe you'll get a chuckle out of this as well:

Thank you.

About the Smash nerf: Isn't it a it silly that Marines with Powerfists have bigger chances of destroying vehicles than mighty Bloodthirsters?

 Red Corsair wrote:

NathanD298 wrote:
After reading all this, I can't say I'm too thrilled about the drake I ordered the other day!! XD

They aren't that worse off. They just aren't the noob canon they were, you'll have to actually have a planned flight path heaven forbid. they also gained the ability to roast models in open topped transports which is awesome.

I'm sure I will make it work!! I haven't gotten my hands on 7th yet though, so everything I know about it, I've heard from Dakka

I'm waiting for the day that you aren't penalized immediately for not wanting a Nurgle army with Plague Marines, MoN units and/or Cultists. Those of us who want Undivided shouldn't be screwed just because.

Although if the Forge/Maulerfiend is buffed that's good to hear, those were some of my favorite models. Shame about the Hellturkey though, but it was OP.

Chaospling wrote:
About the Smash nerf: Isn't it a it silly that Marines with Powerfists have bigger chances of destroying vehicles than mighty Bloodthirsters?

that all depends.
The blood thirster has how many attacks on the charge. whats that . 7 attacks at STR 7
the odds favor about 1 glance and 2 pens

lets say its a veteran sgt on the charge.
.66 glances and 1 pen on aerate

Seems like the bloodthirster is a bit better off. He will wreck any rear armor 10 3 HP unit out there.


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NathanD298 wrote:

 Red Corsair wrote:

NathanD298 wrote:
After reading all this, I can't say I'm too thrilled about the drake I ordered the other day!! XD

They aren't that worse off. They just aren't the noob canon they were, you'll have to actually have a planned flight path heaven forbid. they also gained the ability to roast models in open topped transports which is awesome.

I'm sure I will make it work!! I haven't gotten my hands on 7th yet though, so everything I know about it, I've heard from Dakka

I wouldn't worry about it. Dakka is notoriously negative.
I also agree with the Newb cannon comment. You don't want to be that guy who has to rely on a crutch like an OP unit to win games. Now at least when you play it you want immediately be taken for TFG.

 welshhoppo wrote:
Just don't use Typhus for his powers and use him for zombies. His weapon means he probably won't have to use force anyway, anything which can survive up to 10 S6 AP2 attacks is probably a silly thing to charge anyway.

As if you have any variants who you're gona charge with a slow character.

Typhus could be fixed easily by making that gimp thing licking his horn erotically on his Base count as a Spell Familiar. Hell, he used to auto-pass all his Nurgle Spells in every other book anyway...

As I've not gotten my hands on 7th yet - how did Sorcerers come out of things? I've heard about the Daemonology summoning power things and feel a compulsion to use it!!

NathanD298 wrote:
As I've not gotten my hands on 7th yet - how did Sorcerers come out of things? I've heard about the Daemonology summoning power things and feel a compulsion to use it!!

as they are not daemons, they peril on any double roll, which is VERY likely when summoning with 6 dice.

Sorcerers are great for fishing for invisibility, but summoning daemons is reserved for other daemons.

 Exergy wrote:

NathanD298 wrote:
As I've not gotten my hands on 7th yet - how did Sorcerers come out of things? I've heard about the Daemonology summoning power things and feel a compulsion to use it!!

as they are not daemons, they peril on any double roll, which is VERY likely when summoning with 6 dice.

Sorcerers are great for fishing for invisibility, but summoning daemons is reserved for other daemons.

Like the Daemon Prince! Who can summon Daemons just as awesomely as any true Chaos Daemon. Chaos at least has some ways of doing it.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Typhus could be fixed easily by making that gimp thing licking his horn erotically on his Base count as a Spell Familiar. Hell, he used to auto-pass all his Nurgle Spells in every other book anyway...

And was immune to perils! And could cast nurgles rot while in CC! So much for being Nurgle's chosen one anymore. He's just a termi lord with a demon weapon now.

Kyutaru wrote:

 Exergy wrote:

NathanD298 wrote:
As I've not gotten my hands on 7th yet - how did Sorcerers come out of things? I've heard about the Daemonology summoning power things and feel a compulsion to use it!!

as they are not daemons, they peril on any double roll, which is VERY likely when summoning with 6 dice.

Sorcerers are great for fishing for invisibility, but summoning daemons is reserved for other daemons.

Like the Daemon Prince! Who can summon Daemons just as awesomely as any true Chaos Daemon. Chaos at least has some ways of doing it.

My daemon prince will do fine then!!

I may be being stupid (and by "May be" I mean "am") but, fishing for invisibility??

I think it's way too soon to figure out where Chaos Marines stand.

Being able to ally with yourself, to ally with Come the Apocalypse, and to take formations of Helbrutes... not to mention the change to psykers.. It really changes the meta, and time will tell. Heck, if you really wanted to, you could ally with Inquisition and run Coteaz like all the other tourney players do.

We'll see what happens. I think it's going to boil down to peoples' collections and desires more than specific lists, with how open the game is. Even with basic tournament restrictions of 'one combined arms detachment, one ally' that still opens up a lot of stuff.

Daemon prince is sound as a summoner. can take a spell familiar for reroll failes tests, is a daemon so no difficulty summoning. Can fly to be hard to hit, can jink even when gliding, is good in combat. Go nurgle and get a 2+ jink.
Also you get the god power for free, so three rolls on the table you want.(maybe a slight rules dispute there)

But belakor wins out for guaranteed invisibility


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How about 3 knights and a horror based daemon summoning coven? Theres so much you can do in 7th.

Anti air is probably the hardest slot to effectively fill now, without going unbound.

triple maulerfiends, double spawnstar with sorc or biker lord and an Imperial Knight. Supported by rhino marines.

 Blackskull wrote:


thing infused with the unholy power of the 7th edition rules
psyker bio price, S9 T8 princes kick ass
all vehicles (you will not be mocked for bringing a brute, heck im even thinking of blowing the dust off my defiler)
sorcerers
ahirman


frankly I am enjoying the change and we got off lightly

Tyranids are completely trashed due to the MC nerf, and they weren't that strong to begin with

Ork anti armour is now useless as they are forced to glance things to death,

Tau and necrons to a lesser extent facing a rough time as heavy psyker lists become prevalent, noticing the lil blue guys are uncomfortable with the ultramarine player and his recently acquired collection of daemons, necrons being necrons are actually profiting form chariot changes and monoliths are now indestructible rape machines once more.

Everyone wants daemons to summon but as chaos we typically include some in our lists already, I don't know about you lot but I already have daemons knocking about, which is lucky as my GW store has sold out, theme is "one 7th edition rules and a box o Daemons"

Thats hilarious, but you forgot MoN on the prince lol. Rocket-launchers wounding on 5's anyone? Lazcannon is 4+ lmao

General question, can warpsmiths take a bike?

No, sadly. The masters of machines are too scared to mount one themselves. They also can't take a power fist or a meltabomb. You know, to help tear apart tanks.

Since rhinos gain objective secured, I think mounted chaos marines have a place again. It will give up first blood, in all likelihood, but it might be worth it to double your scoring units for a fraction of the cost.

There's some issues that I would like to comment on as others haven't done so:

In the restrictions of the Allied Detachment it states "All units chosen must have a different Faction to any of the units in your
Primary Detachment (or no Faction)."

So aren't we agreeing that you can't ally with your self?

That it says "Battle Brothers" in the Allies chart is probably because of supplements, thereby telling us that we can still ally with supplements which are based on the same codex which is used for the Primary Detachment.

-------------------

I agree that it's not clear about level 1 Chaos Sorcerers whether they're allowed to roll on another Psychic power table than the one belonging to their patron deity but reading this text in the Chaos Space Marines codex "Though the Sorcerer must generate at least one power from the Discipline of Tzeentch table..." it would seem that it's intended for Sorcerers to have at least one psychic power from the specific chart - it's not important if you actually rolled on the chart or not, just that you somehow generate a psychic power from the chart.

You cannot take an Allied Detachment from the same Codex, but you can take multiple CBA Detachments. In fact the CBA is so much more extensive that the Allied one is redundant unless you really don't want to pay for that second Troops choice.

 Daemon Prince wrote:

 Blackskull wrote:


thing infused with the unholy power of the 7th edition rules
psyker bio price, S9 T8 princes kick ass
all vehicles (you will not be mocked for bringing a brute, heck im even thinking of blowing the dust off my defiler)
sorcerers
ahirman


frankly I am enjoying the change and we got off lightly

Tyranids are completely trashed due to the MC nerf, and they weren't that strong to begin with

Ork anti armour is now useless as they are forced to glance things to death,

Tau and necrons to a lesser extent facing a rough time as heavy psyker lists become prevalent, noticing the lil blue guys are uncomfortable with the ultramarine player and his recently acquired collection of daemons, necrons being necrons are actually profiting form chariot changes and monoliths are now indestructible rape machines once more.

Everyone wants daemons to summon but as chaos we typically include some in our lists already, I don't know about you lot but I already have daemons knocking about, which is lucky as my GW store has sold out, theme is "one 7th edition rules and a box o Daemons"

Thats hilarious, but you forgot MoN on the prince lol. Rocket-launchers wounding on 5's anyone? Lazcannon is 4+ lmao

Daemons do not get Mark of Nurgle, they get Daemon of Nurgle which gives them shrouded and Slow and Purposeful.

I think with a bit of skill CSM can still do alright, they will struggle with anti-air but I think this edition will see a push away from the air force builds

Spawn stars with 2-3 sorcs on bikes spamming divination, sanctic, malefic, bio. Be'lakor, oblits, drakes!
What a fun!

In 6th I ran the helbrute data slates with chaos contemptors, decimators, defilers and maulerfiends. Been slowly painting them up for awhile now, and 7th seems likely to make them even better. No problems here.

Huh, forgive me, but can somebody explain to me how KSons really got buffed? Overall Ahriman still really isn't worth it and is arguably far more likely to peril and the KSons still have to roll twice on the Tzeentchian table. The WC2 is still not worth it, the mutation is still horrid, the primaris is really not worth any praise, and the only real good pick is still doombolt. Plus it's more difficult to cast things in general.

I'm rather curious on how this new edition will influence Walkers though, particularly the assault variant. Defilers still are probably not worth it but.... maybe some others?

There is nothing in the Codex Chaos Space Marines atm that currently stick out past the crowd as unique and exciting. Everything in the codex gets out shined by their counterpart Space Marine equivalents and they are completely outshined by Daemons who consequently do everything CSM can do, but 10x better and more efficiently

GoliothOnline wrote:
There is nothing in the Codex Chaos Space Marines atm that currently stick out past the crowd as unique and exciting. Everything in the codex gets out shined by their counterpart Space Marine equivalents and they are completely outshined by Daemons who consequently do everything CSM can do, but 10x better and more efficiently

Please direct me to the Codex: SM equivalents for:

Maulerfiends
Forgefiends
Defilers
Plague Marines
Noise Marines
Khorne Berserkers
Thousand Sons
Chaos Spawn

And how these are outshined by their equivalents:

Sorcerer (vs max lvl 2 Librarian)
Obliterators (vs Devastators stuck with 1-2 weapons? or Centurions with no invuls, no deep strike, and 2 weapon options?)
Chaos bikers (T6 with MoN, enough said)
Chaos Space Marines (who can purchase way more options than their loyalist kin)

Codex: CSM isn't in the best of places, but dear lord chill out with the doom and gloom. Yeah, Daemons are better. So are Eldar and Tau. But they're better than literally everyone else.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
There is nothing in the Codex Chaos Space Marines atm that currently stick out past the crowd as unique and exciting. Everything in the codex gets out shined by their counterpart Space Marine equivalents and they are completely outshined by Daemons who consequently do everything CSM can do, but 10x better and more efficiently

Please direct me to the Codex: SM equivalents for:

Maulerfiends - You don't have to worry at all about sinking 125 point into something that gets murdered by Lascannons with only AV12
Forgefiends - ^
Defilers - ^ + Are you really trying to say that these things are in lists? 195 points for a Vehicle that has upgrades and weapons it can barely ever make use of.
Plague Marines - Expensive as all hell and requires a Lord that even bare bones is still added into the price of the Plague Marines you need in order to unlock as troops. Otherwise you're wasting an Elite Slot.
Noise Marines - ^
Khorne Berserkers - LOL ^
Thousand Sons - Ap3 Bolters. That's all they have going for them... 4++? Thanks for the awesome invuln save on those models that aren't clearing board space any faster by that trash-can Transport the Rhino doesn't leave them useless within
Chaos Spawn - really? lol You're saying spawn are unique? Sorry but... Why? Because they soak up wounds for a melee dedicated lord or Sorcerer? Oh gee, I love spending 30+ point a model to grant a Model that focuses on melee an extra turn while crossing the board. This wouldn't be so bad if the stupid things had a save, at ALL.

And how these are outshined by their equivalents:

Sorcerer (vs max lvl 2 Librarian) - Psychic hoods, not having to roll on the absolute worst psychic table in the game if you take Marks of Chaos (Which in hilarity used to hinder you more than it would help you, and even now that's the case, just mitigated slightly by Chaos Focus)
Obliterators (vs Devastators stuck with 1-2 weapons? or Centurions with no invuls, no deep strike, and 2 weapon options?) - BRB While I don't care because I'm spending 70+/Model points for a heavy support slot that will Mishap and disappear 1/3 of the time and subsequently on 1s.
Chaos bikers (T6 with MoN, enough said) What makes them amazing is that people tend to throw Bolter fire at regular bikers and hope for 5s and 6s. Oh, it makes you sad that I had to make them more expensive in order to force you to roll 6s instead? What's that, a Vindicator.... Well then... I guess T6 really didn't matter.
Chaos Space Marines (who can purchase way more options than their loyalist kin) - And are subsequently terrible and never taken... What's your point here? People don't run CSM anymore when Cultists outshine them point for point and make them literally look pretentious.

Codex: CSM isn't in the best of places, but dear lord chill out with the doom and gloom. Yeah, Daemons are better. So are Eldar and Tau. But they're better than literally everyone else.

So what I'm seeing is no equivalents, then? I wish my dreads could move as fast as a maulerfiend with its weight of attacks. I wish shooting dreads could shoot as much as a forge fiend. And have free 5++ to boot. And Daemon forge. Oh no, you need a lord to unlock cult troops. Funny how you need and HQ anyway to remain battle forged. Slap a mark of choice and you're set. Spawn, by the by, don't quite need a save with their speed and natural toughness (hello nurgle my old friend).

Psychic hoods are a pittance for mastery 3 and I would trade it for that any day of the week. Vindicates are barely if ever taken, and if you see one, you're faster than it and can jink. And yeah, cultists might be better than stock chaos marines (in 6th, welcome to 7th where mobile troops are gold), but guess what loyalists don't get? Cultists, OR half the options of the "awful" chaos marines.

 obsidiankatana wrote:
So what I'm seeing is no equivalents, then? I wish my dreads could move as fast as a maulerfiend with its weight of attacks. I wish shooting dreads could shoot as much as a forge fiend. And have free 5++ to boot. And Daemon forge. Oh no, you need a lord to unlock cult troops. Funny how you need and HQ anyway to remain battle forged. Slap a mark of choice and you're set. Spawn, by the by, don't quite need a save with their speed and natural toughness (hello nurgle my old friend).

Psychic hoods are a pittance for mastery 3 and I would trade it for that any day of the week. Vindicates are barely if ever taken, and if you see one, you're faster than it and can jink. And yeah, cultists might be better than stock chaos marines (in 6th, welcome to 7th where mobile troops are gold), but guess what loyalists don't get? Cultists, OR half the options of the "awful" chaos marines.

Trying to compare the Dread to the Maulerfiend?
Trying to compare Dreads to Forgefiends as well? You know why they're incomparable? WS and BS aside the blood things serve no purpose. Maulerfiends were a 125 point sink into a vehicles that took up a HS spot and provided NOTHING to your army. Everything you got out of them was outshined and out performed by a simply TriLasPred and you got the range to keep them safe along with the added armor. Same goes for Forgefiends just even more disgustingly out classed. 8 Hades Autocannon shots hitting on 4s is garbage compared to the damage potential of a 35 point cheaper TriLasPred with better survivability.

I STILL run Vindicators because of their pie plates. In tournaments people WILL focus them and half the time they can't get rid of it before I make it's points back. The thing is fantastic. As for Cultists, woopi! We finally have 1 thing in our dex that actually gets to see use.

Auto cannon drakes got hit just as hard by the nerf as baleflamers. They can no longer shoot at the rear armour of vehicles they fly over, which limits their anti armour role, and the can no longer fly anywhere around the board whilst threatening enemy fliers.

Would hull mount + vector dancer have been enough to fix it?

Are you aware that Chaos has access to tri Las predators?

Also, dreads are absolute garbage the majority of the time for marines. 6 in move with the same armor as a maulerfiend (unless ironclad) and less attacks with no Daemon save. Shooting dreads often fire 2 TL autocannons. At low strength and half the total shot potential.

Want to compare anything to a Las predator? Compare it to the EXACT SAME THING that exists in the chaos book.

Tri-Las preds only shine when you're using very little terrain. If you use a solid amount of terrain (you know to tone down shooty armies) the tri-las is hurt pretty bad as moving to get a shot it is reduced to one shot and trying to park it somewhere for board control is less effective because it won't be able to see much. Walkers don't experience this issue as much being able to move and fire all weapons. So this just means, to me, that they serve different purposes and aren't so comparable in the first place.

The got a buff now that Telepathy is the new Black. Spell Familiars make CSM Sorcerers the most reliable casters in the game. Other Psykers like Ahriman and Aspiring Sorcerers got a buff too with Chaos Focus and Ahriman being able to sling the same Witchfire three times.

Helldrake got nerfed, but in general got a big durability buff. Is less likely to Explode! now meaning it's It Will Not Die becomes a bigger factor. Also, there is actually a point to Jink now for the 4+ cover, rather than it being redundant with it's Invulnerable. Finally, Helldrake can score (in Hover mode).

 StarTrotter wrote:
Huh, forgive me, but can somebody explain to me how KSons really got buffed? Overall Ahriman still really isn't worth it and is arguably far more likely to peril and the KSons still have to roll twice on the Tzeentchian table. The WC2 is still not worth it, the mutation is still horrid, the primaris is really not worth any praise, and the only real good pick is still doombolt. Plus it's more difficult to cast things in general.

They use to only get 1 Tzeench power, now they get 2
They use to have to shoot their witchfire at the same thing the squad did, now they can pick a different target.
Now if another sorcerer joins the unit, only one needs to activate their force weapon for both to have ID force weapons

Huge buffs, still terrible

I guess i can just burn my codex n 6th ed rule book.

 Filch wrote:
I guess i can just burn my codex n 6th ed rule book.

Burn it with Flickering Fire. That's one tactic that's become a little more viable, granted this thread is about Chaos Marines not Chaos Daemons.

Daemon engines (stuff with IWND and methods of ignoring crew shaken/stunned results) have gotten a little bit better. Helbrutes/Maulerfiends stand a much better chance against most MC's because of the Smash nerf.

I think the Heldrake easily still has a place in lists, 3 is now too much though.

 obsidiankatana wrote:

GoliothOnline wrote:
There is nothing in the Codex Chaos Space Marines atm that currently stick out past the crowd as unique and exciting. Everything in the codex gets out shined by their counterpart Space Marine equivalents and they are completely outshined by Daemons who consequently do everything CSM can do, but 10x better and more efficiently

Please direct me to the Codex: SM equivalents for:

Maulerfiends
Forgefiends
Defilers
Plague Marines
Noise Marines
Khorne Berserkers
Thousand Sons
Chaos Spawn

And how these are outshined by their equivalents:

Sorcerer (vs max lvl 2 Librarian)
Obliterators (vs Devastators stuck with 1-2 weapons? or Centurions with no invuls, no deep strike, and 2 weapon options?)
Chaos bikers (T6 with MoN, enough said)
Chaos Space Marines (who can purchase way more options than their loyalist kin)

Codex: CSM isn't in the best of places, but dear lord chill out with the doom and gloom. Yeah, Daemons are better. So are Eldar and Tau. But they're better than literally everyone else.

This. +1. Could not have said it better myself.

Has anyone tried running an unmarked list yet? I'm getting a commission paint job done for some night Lords so I'm curious

man I'm loving chaos, both the marines and demons in 7th.

i think for chaos our strength lies in our demon engines and helbrutes.

I've been running a helbrute spam list, using our data slates, and have been LOVING it. helcult troops, murder pack getting invisibility from be'lakor, deep striking mayhem packs, and suppourt from maulerfiends.

train wreck, pain train buck nasty chaos baby!!!

Ahriman is the only psyker in the game who can potentially throw out 3 str D blasts every turn.
Here is a cheezy strat with him I learned from some guys here on the forum:

1) Have 5 ML 3 pskers at the back farming WC. ~625P
2) Ahriman Rolls 3 or 4 times on Sanctic daemonology, depending on views on Chaos Focus(for tzeentch).
3) Take Ahriman and 9 chaos marines in a rhino, they can free infiltrate 18'' from enemy models due to Ahriman's Warlord trait placed on himself. ~400p
4) Drive the Rhino 12'' and disembark(if you have Gate of Infinity). Now in range of many enemy models with Vortex of doom.
5)Cast vortex of doom 3 times anywhere you like and wreak massive havok.
--If you have enough WC left, cast gate of infinity and get outta there.(or cast gate to get in-range of high-priority models)
Note 1: Vortex has 5/6 chance of staying every turn and moving randomly 2d6 inches; might kill even moar.
Note 2: Might as well roll on sanctic daemonology for all your other psykers and drive them up in rhinoes to throw out VoD after Ahriman is ded.
Note 3: Depending on how much dies to VoD, Ahriman might actually survive for round 2 without Gate-ing out.

TL;DR: 1000p For 3 str D vortex blasts every turn.


Ps, If he has 3 squads of battlesuits or similar expensives like Termies or HQ, in a 24'' vicinity. You just just killed somewhere between 600-and 900p in one psychic phase. And your enemy will probably only return the favor of up to 400 points.

Too bad Ahriman is banned in New Jersey.

Kyutaru wrote:
Too bad Ahriman is banned in New Jersey.

lol-Wut? How did Ahriman get banned from....New Jersey? XD

 Daemon Prince wrote:
Ahriman is the only psyker in the game who can potentially throw out 3 str D blasts every turn.
Here is a cheezy strat with him I learned from some guys here on the forum:


5)Cast vortex of doom 3 times anywhere you like and wreak massive havok.
--If you have enough WC left, cast gate of infinity and get outta there.(or cast gate to get in-range of high-priority models)

Warp Charge 3 requires 6 dice to be reliable. Using sanctic daemonolgy, Ahriman perils on any doubles (including 1s, 2s, and 3s)

So, congratulations, you most likely burned out his brain on turn 1.

^That.

If Ahriman had a spell familiar, maybe. Currently, it's a great way to waste half an army.

Are you willing to run suppliments. If so Chaos Is gross in 7th edition.

Black legion Daemon Prince
Mastery 3, spell familiar, Last memory of Ytherenthos (Or whatever its called)

Congrats you now effectively have a level four psycker with casting rerolls.

Oh you want to summon even more Daemons.

Ally Crimson Slaughter.
Sorcerer Level 3, Spell familiar. Prophet of the Voices.

Yay! Your Sorcerer is daemon sorcerer. No more brain burns while summoning daemons. Oh no I rolled double ones. I have a familiar.

Want more warp charges? Bring another level 3 psycher. It will be funny.

You still won't have enough WC to pull it off. Plus all those summoners are way too expensive, especially the prince, and cant really do much else. The whole summoning snowball thing won't work for CSM.

JubbJubbz wrote:
You still won't have enough WC to pull it off. Plus all those summoners are way too expensive, especially the prince, and cant really do much else. The whole summoning snowball thing won't work for CSM.

...without an all 1k Sons legion? I'd agree here. In fact, I don't really see how CSM can pull off the Daemon Factory. Yes, our Sorcerers are great and we get Spell Familiars to help out, but it doesn't seem possible that we can put out enough cheap psykers for it to make enough of a difference without devoting nearly an entire detachment or army to the Daemon Factory. Granted, the Snowball of Tzeentch is valid, but that has more to do with Heralds, Lords of Change and Pink Horrors than anything else, and every unit mentioned generates a Warp Charge, vs CSM armies that'll only generate charges on the Sorcerer, Aspiring Sorcerer (1kSons) and Daemon Princes with Psyker Mastery.

Ceann Fine wrote:
Has anyone tried running an unmarked list yet? I'm getting a commission paint job done for some night Lords so I'm curious

it's alright, it kind of spurns a lot that is good in the codex. Some units practically require MoN to be used, others are fielded at marked reduced effectiveness without it.

but the fluff is so much better.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Serg Rush wrote:

Are you willing to run suppliments. If so Chaos Is gross in 7th edition.
Black legion Daemon Prince
Mastery 3, spell familiar, Last memory of Ytherenthos (Or whatever its called)
Congrats you now effectively have a level four psycker with casting rerolls.
Oh you want to summon even more Daemons.
Ally Crimson Slaughter.
Sorcerer Level 3, Spell familiar. Prophet of the Voices.
Yay! Your Sorcerer is daemon sorcerer. No more brain burns while summoning daemons. Oh no I rolled double ones. I have a familiar.
Want more warp charges? Bring another level 3 psycher. It will be funny.

While those options are alright, I think you are vaslty overestimating how good a high level sorcerer is vs mastery level for the points and surviability.

So you have a DP with mastery 3, the thing that buffs it to 4, and possibly EW. That's 400 points more or less for a pretty weak MC that can be shot off the table. And sadly you only get 2 rolls on the rulebook powers you want, get last memory and some awful god powers.
Crimson Slaughter ML 3 with daemon thingy dude. Great an IC daemon sorc with rerolls, but can only join possessed, warptalons, mutilators, or oblits. You know what make terrible terrible bullet sponges. All of those units.

Sure you can bring more sorcerers, but you will never get the cost+duribility daemons have.

Belakor though, he is awesome, of course daemons can take him too.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Green is Best! wrote:

 Daemon Prince wrote:
Ahriman is the only psyker in the game who can potentially throw out 3 str D blasts every turn.
Here is a cheezy strat with him I learned from some guys here on the forum:


5)Cast vortex of doom 3 times anywhere you like and wreak massive havok.
--If you have enough WC left, cast gate of infinity and get outta there.(or cast gate to get in-range of high-priority models)

Warp Charge 3 requires 6 dice to be reliable. Using sanctic daemonolgy, Ahriman perils on any doubles (including 1s, 2s, and 3s)

So, congratulations, you most likely burned out his brain on turn 1.

yeah, he will be lucky to cast it twice a game before he dies.

Ok ok, let me try for round 3.

Take Noise marines. 1 squad with a Blastmaster at the back(48'' range) for 125 points
This will give you a str 8 ap 3 blast that ignores cover. Shoot this at battlesuits(after troops shoot out shield drones if possible) or any t4 command squad or equivalent.

This is a pretty cheap squad that has very powerful sniping potential. I can't think anything else better at taking out space marine heavy-weapons-teams and most HQ's, not to mention battlesuits.
You also get 4 ablative wounds, and you're probably tankier than most offensive vehicles for the points when considering range.

Also, we still have Nurgle armies. But, if we're talking about our fluff winning or losing, then we probably lost. :C


If you want an army that wins objective games, take Typhus and as many Plague Zombies as points permit. Chaos can still win cheesy, competitively if you want to cheese.

Cultists are cheese now? Oh boy...

On a more serious note, competitive & chaos space marines don't go together in the same sentence. It's almost as if the lads at GW want to make the whole "Abaddon = No arms" thing actuality. They're slowly getting closer to that goal.

GoliothOnline wrote:
Cultists are cheese now? Oh boy...

On a more serious note, competitive & chaos space marines don't go together in the same sentence. It's almost as if the lads at GW want to make the whole "Abaddon = No arms" thing actuality. They're slowly getting closer to that goal.

j just don't agree with this, i think csm are very strong right now. our sorcerers with familiars, be'lakor, the helbrute dataslates, crimson slaughter book, cheap troops, resiliant troops, spawn, Helldrake is still good just not dominant, maulerfiends, oblits, havoks, and we're battle brothers with
another very strong codex?!!!

please, chaos is kicking imperium right now

I run Saanesh themed army [mostly] thus MoS on units but might work with MoN also, probably even better. I'm not most experienced or competitive player but I was thinking about something like this:

-Be'lakor [Telepathy]
-Sorcerer ML3: Spell Familiar, Bike [Telepathy]
-Lord: Bike, MoS
-Herald of Slaanesh ML1 [Telepathy]

-2x Noise Marines in Rhinos
-8x Bikers, MoS, FnP
-2x Maulerfiend
-15x Seeker of Slaanesh
+ whatever else you want to put there

Sorcerer throwing Invisibility at Seekers [if he rolls one].
Be'lakor throwing Invisibility at Bikes/Seekers [depending if Sorc have one], Shroud on himself.
You run/turbobost everything turn one [bikes, seekers, maulerfiends, rhinos [probably with dirge casters], assault turn 2 and kill.
Seekers should have quite a chance to survive 1turn of shooting with Invisibility and wreck all they touch in CC with Greater Lucus of Belusomething...Bikes with 2+ CoverSave T5 and FnP have quite a chance too. Be'lakor jumping with jink 2+.
Maulerfiends maybe, I didn't field any yet so I'm not sure, but they seems to fit as additional targets 'in your face turn 2'.
Rhinos if they survive may close overwatch with dirge casters and Noise Marines can jump out and dubstep something out of cover with Doom Sirens.

How that sounds?

Chaos has done nothing but get better in 7th. The heldrake went back to what it was when it was released. Now it is good, but not an auto take. All the vehicles got better with the changes to smash and the damage chart. Maulerfiends are even better than they were before with the changes to move through cover on top of everything else. I am trying to get two right now lol.

Sorcerers are amazing now as well. Hopefully they get errataed so that the primaris counts as their one roll on the chaos chart. But until then spell familiars giving re-rolls allows you to make your dice go a lot further than before. Telepathy is insanely good. In addition with everything scoring you dont have to invest in the lord to get troops from that slot.

So on and so forth, lots of overall boosts, in addition the changes to challenges basically work 100% in the chaos players favor now.

 Leth wrote:
Chaos has done nothing but get better in 7th. The heldrake went back to what it was when it was released. Now it is good, but not an auto take. All the vehicles got better with the changes to smash and the damage chart. Maulerfiends are even better than they were before with the changes to move through cover on top of everything else. I am trying to get two right now lol.

Sorcerers are amazing now as well. Hopefully they get errataed so that the primaris counts as their one roll on the chaos chart. But until then spell familiars giving re-rolls allows you to make your dice go a lot further than before. Telepathy is insanely good. In addition with everything scoring you dont have to invest in the lord to get troops from that slot.

So on and so forth, lots of overall boosts, in addition the changes to challenges basically work 100% in the chaos players favor now.

I don't think they changed very much at all, better or worse. The heldrake nerf is huge so I don't think you can really say "nothing but better" but they were never the auto-take that people made them out to be anyway. Spawn and bikers have always been just as good of a choice. As most of our vehicles are in the middle AV range I don't think the damage chart change helps much either. It seems to benefit high AV which is too hard to glance to death and low AV a little bit which get lots of pens even from medium S weapons. The middle AV's were just getting glanced down before with mid S weapons and they'll continue doing so just the same.

Sorcerers were always amazing, as was telepathy. I still don't see the viability of marked sorcs. Even if you don't have to actually roll on the god tables (I doubt this will get ruled this way) you are still wasting a free primaris that you could've gotten from a good table. The god tables were bad before, now that the rulebook powers have been buffed to make up for powers becoming more reliable, they are even worse in comparison. It would help some if they counted to make cult marines troops besides tzeentch whose powers are the worst in the game. troops is still a big deal. The ability for your plague marines to hold an objective won't mean much when any actual troop saunters over and takes it from them with Objective Secured.

The challenges are indeed a nice fix. Champion of Chaos no longer works against us as much as it is much less of a detriment to challenge in many cases. It still doesn't really do much to benefit us, but at least it doesn't hurt us nearly as much now.

JubbJubbz wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Chaos has done nothing but get better in 7th. The heldrake went back to what it was when it was released. Now it is good, but not an auto take. All the vehicles got better with the changes to smash and the damage chart. Maulerfiends are even better than they were before with the changes to move through cover on top of everything else. I am trying to get two right now lol.

Sorcerers are amazing now as well. Hopefully they get errataed so that the primaris counts as their one roll on the chaos chart. But until then spell familiars giving re-rolls allows you to make your dice go a lot further than before. Telepathy is insanely good. In addition with everything scoring you dont have to invest in the lord to get troops from that slot.

So on and so forth, lots of overall boosts, in addition the changes to challenges basically work 100% in the chaos players favor now.

I don't think they changed very much at all, better or worse. The heldrake nerf is huge so I don't think you can really say "nothing but better" but they were never the auto-take that people made them out to be anyway. Spawn and bikers have always been just as good of a choice. As most of our vehicles are in the middle AV range I don't think the damage chart change helps much either. It seems to benefit high AV which is too hard to glance to death and low AV a little bit which get lots of pens even from medium S weapons. The middle AV's were just getting glanced down before with mid S weapons and they'll continue doing so just the same.

Sorcerers were always amazing, as was telepathy. I still don't see the viability of marked sorcs. Even if you don't have to actually roll on the god tables (I doubt this will get ruled this way) you are still wasting a free primaris that you could've gotten from a good table. The god tables were bad before, now that the rulebook powers have been buffed to make up for powers becoming more reliable, they are even worse in comparison. It would help some if they counted to make cult marines troops besides tzeentch whose powers are the worst in the game. troops is still a big deal. The ability for your plague marines to hold an objective won't mean much when any actual troop saunters over and takes it from them with Objective Secured.

The challenges are indeed a nice fix. Champion of Chaos no longer works against us as much as it is much less of a detriment to challenge in many cases. It still doesn't really do much to benefit us, but at least it doesn't hurt us nearly as much now.

Glass half full versus glass half empty

 Leth wrote:
Maulerfiends are even better than they were before with the changes to move through cover on top of everything else.

Could you elaborate on this a little more?

 Enigwolf wrote:

 Leth wrote:
Maulerfiends are even better than they were before with the changes to move through cover on top of everything else.

Could you elaborate on this a little more?

So vehicle damage is much harder to get the kill with now which means they are going to have to be hull pointed out. This combined with IWND means that they are much more likely to survive for longer. Combine this with things like malific providing bubbles to daemon invul saves. You can have two-three maulerfiends and helldrakes just sitting at a 4+ invul(one at a 2+/3+ with grim) from one casting of cursed earth.

Things like krak grenades no longer are going to get that chance kill like they used to.

Their biggest BIGGEST problem was enemy monstrous creatures but now with the nerf to smash it is a 2/3 chance to hit, followed by a 1/3 chance to save followed by a 1/6 chance of destroyed so 7% chance from smash. Where as before it was basically guaranteed.

They are not slowed at all when charging( although I dont know if they were before) since they have move through cover.

In addition they are scoring , which means it will be hard for even objective secured units to get close enough to contest without charging them. Combine this with their mobility in an edition that prioritizes being mobile(which also means your opponent is less likely to sit back and shoot ya and you are more likely to be able to get assaults off) combined with a glut of targets that it can mess up pretty bad

I think all of this really adds to the useability of the maulerfiend.

I am looking at an army that is something like this.

Sorcerer level three - daemonheart, spell familiar, aura
Nurgle lord - termie, axe, mark of nurgle, blight grenades

2x 5 man plague marines with double plasma and melta bomb in rhino with dozer

2x heldrake
2x maulerfiend with lash
2x oblits with nurgle

Allied
GUO with greater and middle lvl three

10x plague bearers with Icon and musician

1850. I think it could be fun to try

Go malific and try for cursed earth on sorcerer, then go biomancy on GUO potentially summon a unit or two. Get grim on GUO. Have 6 static dice.

So I've gotten a few games in with CSM in 7th now, and I'm curious what sort of lists people are running for pure CSM (no daemons) that can adequately handle Monstrous Creature spam (ala Tyranids) and 2+ heavy armies (like Grey Knights, the winds seem to be pointing to Draigo-wing making a come back).

The standard list I run mulches MEQ and below infantry and tanks like it's nobodies business. But I've found myself struggling against Grey Knights and Monstrous Creatures in general.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
So I've gotten a few games in with CSM in 7th now, and I'm curious what sort of lists people are running for pure CSM (no daemons) that can adequately handle Monstrous Creature spam (ala Tyranids) and 2+ heavy armies (like Grey Knights, the winds seem to be pointing to Draigo-wing making a come back).

The standard list I run mulches MEQ and below infantry and tanks like it's nobodies business. But I've found myself struggling against Grey Knights and Monstrous Creatures in general.

I am not playing 7th, but was fond of lascannon spam in 6th edition, either from Havocs, Laspreds, or Land Raiders. I am sure I am not the only one who thought this way.

Ahriman has kicked ass in every game I've played him in in the last two years. Now he has the flexibility to take more support spells and save his 3Xwitchfires for one spell at the right moment. I also am a fan of brutes and vindicators. So for me? Buff for chaos.

Can you please link me to the FAQ's and explain how 1k sons got buffed? Thnx

 Chaos Rising wrote:
Can you please link me to the FAQ's and explain how 1k sons got buffed? Thnx

Just off the top of my head, changes to how primaris powers occur and generating powers, each squad now has two powers to use instead of one. Primaris is acquired if psychic focus is entirely in one discipline - since Tsons are M1, they by default can only focus on one discipline (Tzeentch) and thus automatically get its primaris. A small buff, but a buff.

I keep hearing complaint's about this codex but hardly anyone can beat the best Nurgle themed list that's out there just now. Its too solid. Even Tau struggle and my Eldar are on a 3 game losing streak against it.

This isn't codex: CSM this is codex: Nurgle. Stick to that and win without thought.

kryczek wrote:
I keep hearing complaint's about this codex but hardly anyone can beat the best Nurgle themed list that's out there just now. Its too solid. Even Tau struggle and my Eldar are on a 3 game losing streak against it.

This isn't codex: CSM this is codex: Nurgle. Stick to that and win without thought.

Kinda how its been for awhile lol.

kryczek wrote:
I keep hearing complaint's about this codex but hardly anyone can beat the best Nurgle themed list that's out there just now. Its too solid. Even Tau struggle and my Eldar are on a 3 game losing streak against it.

This isn't codex: CSM this is codex: Nurgle. Stick to that and win without thought.

And what would this Nurgle list consist off, May I ask?

Biker/ sorceror lord, 6 bikes.
Xx 7 man plague marines. 1 or 2 in rhino's.
7 Possessed.
2 Oblit's.
Tri-las Predator.
2x Blight drone's.
Maulerfeind.

1 or 2 heralds on planquins with locus of FNP.
1 or 2 Plague bearers x20.
+ daemon factory.

Any 2k from this list. It's just so hard to kill. Not amazing but resilient beyond funny.

kryczek wrote:
Biker/ sorceror lord, 6 bikes.
Xx 7 man plague marines. 1 or 2 in rhino's.
7 Possessed.
2 Oblit's.
Tri-las Predator.
2x Blight drone's.
Maulerfeind.

1 or 2 heralds on planquins with locus of FNP.
1 or 2 Plague bearers x20.
+ daemon factory.

Any 2k from this list. It's just so hard to kill. Not amazing but resilient beyond funny.

Are you serious? Possessed?
THIS is resilient beyond funny? Are you familiar with 2++ rerollable saves?