So the Tau took a beating with 7th IMO....

We lost:

Allies
No joining monstrous creatures and ICs.
MCs only get 1 smash attack.
Sniper Kroot no longer pin or rend.
Intercept + Skyfire no longer grants full BS to ground targets.
Nightfighting is only shrouded now. Black sun filters not as useful.
No more area terrain to hide pathfinders and our fragile troops in.
ICs lost precision shots.

Things that help Tau:

Everything scores.
Tougher vehicles. (Pirahnas useable?)
Defensive grenades now cause blind (is this a gain?)


So what do we now? Riptide spam is still possible even though unpopular to play against. Farsight enclaves still provides some battle brothers options and I think the Farsight bomb will still be viable. Devilfish with firewarriors are now super scoring (return of Fish of Fury?). What am I missing?

Scratching my head on what to do vs. psyker spam and super scoring drop pod armies except to talk them into playing kill points....

It seems as if the Tau cheese has been turned down a notch or two, not being able to BB with Eldar, cause grounding tests with markerlights or do the Buffmander/O'vesa thing.

I expect Tau will stay top tier because they still have wicked long range shooting and can readily access Ignores Cover. It's still a very shooty edition and the Tau are very shooty.

Farsight's special goodies are restricted per Detatchment now, so you can definitely have all of them and your Tau Signature Systems in the same army with allies.

Using Allies you can also add Shadowsun to your Farsight Bomb.

Couple of those arent really a problem though.

Intercept + Skyfire - our Skyfire isnt Skyfire, its a turn on/off wargear. We ignore this hit since we can just turn Skyfire off.

Sniper kroot - Pinning loss sucks yea but Rending really didnt do jack to them. they still wound on a 4+ and a 6 is ap2, just not rending. All this means is your kroot cant kill vehicles for squat...big deal my missilepods deal with that anyway lol.

Im kinda confused how the new Nightfighting rule hurts our BSFilter. BSFilter ignores the effects of nightfighting, which is now a bonus of Shrouded - so we ignore shrouded granted via nightfight. Sitting in class waiting for my next one to start or i'd double check the wording, but afaik everything that alters how you fight with nightfighting just ignores the effects of nightfighting.

I think the terrain was a buff personally. Ruins grant a 4+ by default now, whether youre covered or not. Now i can sit on top of those buildings my FLGS has and not worry about funky angles removing my cover because that way i wasnt 25% obscured. Yea, loss of area terrain, unless its rubble. i didnt like putting them in a 5+ cover anyway since they usually take so much firepower it isnt even funny, that 4+ helps a LOT.

Night fighting grants stealth

Area terrain isn't gone. It just got renamed to difficult terrain.

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Area terrain isn't gone. It just got renamed to difficult terrain.

the difference being that difficult terrain must block you 25% in order to gain the cover save, so you cannot dip the toe of a wraithknight onto the base of difficult terrain and gain a 5+ like you could in sixth.

Do the drones that come with a vehicle able to score? Seems like piranhas would great for grabbing objectives and dropping off drones around the map. Shooting at base value piranhas would be incredibly inefficient so they would make decent bullet magnets.

On that note would devilfish drones get objective secure rule due to dedicated transports getting the rule?

 Gangrel767 wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Area terrain isn't gone. It just got renamed to difficult terrain.

the difference being that difficult terrain must block you 25% in order to gain the cover save, so you cannot dip the toe of a wraithknight onto the base of difficult terrain and gain a 5+ like you could in sixth.

Honestly this is the best rule change they could of made because dipping your toe in was pathetic, your either behind cover or you are not.

Vankraken wrote:
Do the drones that come with a vehicle able to score? Seems like piranhas would great for grabbing objectives and dropping off drones around the map. Shooting at base value piranhas would be incredibly inefficient so they would make decent bullet magnets.

On that note would devilfish drones get objective secure rule due to dedicated transports getting the rule?

Units composed entirely of drones cannot score, this is in the Tau codex under the drone descriptions. If theres a commander attached, or theyre purchased and the unit they were bought for is still alive, they can score. Vehicle detached drones and straight up drone squadrons never can score or deny (though vehicle drones arent worth a VP either)

Back from classes now so i was able to read the nightfighting stuff.

Nightfighting new rule - all units have Stealth. No restrictions on range anymore, even if youre 1" away i get +1 cover from Stealth. Kinda odd....but ok...least it wasnt Shrouded like i thought for some reason.
Night Vision in the BRB says it ignores the effects of Nightfighting - no stealth bonus unless its from another rule.

BS Filter says grants the bearer Nightvision and immunity to Blind.
New night fighting rule doesnt affect Tau at all. If anything, it helps since our firewarriors fire at +1cover rather than +2cover at the start lol.

This kinda...now that i think about it they basically removed nightfighting without removing it. Everything can fire regardless now since theres no maximum range and its only a +1, rather than the usual +2 at more than right-in-yo-face distances. In all fairness though i hated nightfighting. Severe hindrance if you werent ignoring it since the only time it ever came up was at turn 1, when everything is out of range or +2 cover distance. Ive had many a game as Tau where i was basically given a free turn to shoot because of this, as well as as Orks where i coudnt do jack squat because my lootas couldnt hit more than a couple models before hitting the 36" limit, and my opponents always fire ignores cover weapons which were only limited to 36" if they didnt have night vision, so he got +2 from me and i got zilch in return.

Shingen wrote:

 Gangrel767 wrote:

DaddyWarcrimes wrote:
Area terrain isn't gone. It just got renamed to difficult terrain.

the difference being that difficult terrain must block you 25% in order to gain the cover save, so you cannot dip the toe of a wraithknight onto the base of difficult terrain and gain a 5+ like you could in sixth.

Honestly this is the best rule change they could of made because dipping your toe in was pathetic, your either behind cover or you are not.

I completely agree... and I'm the guy who would do it all the time with my wraithknights. Now it makes sense.

 D6Damager wrote:
So the Tau took a beating with 7th IMO....

We lost:

Allies
No joining monstrous creatures and ICs.
No more area terrain to hide pathfinders and our fragile troops in.
ICs lost precision shots.

Scratching my head on what to do vs. psyker spam and super scoring drop pod armies except to talk them into playing kill points....

We can pick CADs of more Tau or other armies. We lost the BB buffs, but some of them are replicable. Markerlights became even more important; now we can have dozens of Fast Attack slots to fill with them! Just need +1 HQ and +2 Troops per CAD.

Riptides will need to expend Markerlights. That's what was intended with the codex anyway

Ruins now give +4 cover for just being there (except for vehicles, still 25%). It's the best alternative to area terrain, fortifications aside (now you can have more than 1, just get another CAD)

ICs can get their Precision Shot back with a 3p upgrade, and at 5+!. I think only Eldar can have something similar.

To help against psyker spam, ally with some Psykers (Inquisition/Tyranids/Eldar have the best cost-effective ones) and/or bring a Riptide with Talisman of Arthas Moloch (4+ to DtW to friendly UNITS within 12" of the bearer)
Drop Pods... FWs with haywires can take care of those (at least near your battle lines), while missiles pick off the ones far away

IN the end, the 7th changes will force a change in tactics for a more variable army, instead of spamming just the most damaging stuff.

 D6Damager wrote:
So the Tau took a beating with 7th IMO....

We lost:

Allies
No joining monstrous creatures and ICs.
MCs only get 1 smash attack.
Sniper Kroot no longer pin or rend.
Intercept + Skyfire no longer grants full BS to ground targets.
Nightfighting is only shrouded now. Black sun filters not as useful.
No more area terrain to hide pathfinders and our fragile troops in.
ICs lost precision shots.

Things that help Tau:

Everything scores.
Tougher vehicles. (Pirahnas useable?)
Defensive grenades now cause blind (is this a gain?)


So what do we now? Riptide spam is still possible even though unpopular to play against. Farsight enclaves still provides some battle brothers options and I think the Farsight bomb will still be viable. Devilfish with firewarriors are now super scoring (return of Fish of Fury?). What am I missing?

Scratching my head on what to do vs. psyker spam and super scoring drop pod armies except to talk them into playing kill points....

I never used allies. I still win.
Never joined an IC to a Monstrous creature but twice. No loss.
MC's smash was a hit. I agree there.
Kroot Sniper rounds: never used them but once. Again, no loss to me.
Intercept + Skyfire: Im not sure why this matters...Maybe im missing it.
Blacksun filters are free. So again, who cares?
area terrain is gone but terrain still has sdaves so the concept of Area isn't necessary.
IC's lost precision shots...as did everyone elses. So...net no loss or gain. it just made life a little simpler.

So really, I'm not seeing it. Theres nothing here listing the really good stuff we got. Why?

What really good stuff did we get?

The major things we lost were Allies. And not even really then. We can still take useful allied units, we just can't join squads or gain their buffs. True, Prescience/Misfortune/Etc were the shiny parts, but we can still get a Wraithknight or Guardian Jetbikes if we need to.
Riptide can't smash.

The Interceptor/Skyfire thing doesn't affect us because we have turn on/off skyfire - except for interceptor drones, who now can't use the alternate fire of their weapons :(

@Jancoran: But we didn't gain anything. What do you think we gained?

I think having and easy access to multiple CAD and extremely mobile scoring options helps us out. Think of the tar pit 15 piranha and 3x10 of free drones can cause. Hard to kill but dangerous enough not to ignore.

DFish get much better since there's not much reason to not Jink and protect the inside crew and it's harder to explode as well. Also we don't have to solely rely on protecting our troops to win objectives. I think Dfish/EMP crews could be more common now.

Yeah I was going to say, do you think Tau tanks are more viable this edition?

I have a couple of hammerheads and two skyrays, and two devilfish who would love to see some action. Do you think Devilfishes would help us with scoring since they have Objective secured too?

Hmm, yea actually that might be a good use for my Devilfish finally. i have two of them collecting dust, MechaBeast commented bringing EMP FW with a devilfish. Not a bad idea, two scoring units (one of which is reasonably durable with a 3+ jink...counting dpods here) that can absolutely wreck vehicles. Wont work that well against walkers since the WS comes into play.

Ive wanted to run an armor list tau for awhile, but devilfish were always so poor for the cost it made it pointless to bring them. Popped crazy easy, not many guns, and aside from keeping my FW away from fast assaulty units on bikes not much help to the firewarriors in 9/10 situations. Now i gotta rethink my tactics.

EDIT: Plus, if its still alive, devilfish can score like a beast towards the end. They count as Troops if bought by firewarriors - so they have objective secured. 12" with a 12" Flat Out since theyre a skimmer = 24" zoom across the board to steal an objective, not even needing to clear the enemy off it (unless they also have super score)

Yeah, with objective secured (if bought by firewarriors and really, no reason not to) I think they can be a lot of help for maelstorm missions since we don't have fast troops. I shall dust them off for some play

I have a rule of thumb that you need so many scoring units per game and I really need to consider a troop in a transport as 2 sets of troops this edition.

 ashikenshin wrote:
Yeah I was going to say, do you think Tau tanks are more viable this edition?

As being the only army able to mitigate BS 1 Jink forces on vehicles (others have Twin-link, at most), I believe our vehicles are in a good spot (railgun not so much, needing a 5+ pen/5+ table to explode a Land Raider, from 5+/4+ in 6th)

 Vector Strike wrote:

 ashikenshin wrote:
Yeah I was going to say, do you think Tau tanks are more viable this edition?

As being the only army able to mitigate BS 1 Jink forces on vehicles (others have Twin-link, at most), I believe our vehicles are in a good spot (railgun not so much, needing a 5+ pen/5+ table to explode a Land Raider, from 5+/4+ in 6th)

If you take a hammerhead railgun loadout then always take Longstrike. He makes that one shot count among other things.

 Jancoran wrote:

.
Intercept + Skyfire: Im not sure why this matters...Maybe im missing it.

So really, I'm not seeing it. Theres nothing here listing the really good stuff we got. Why?

Totally borked Interceptor drones and as a nerf on the Sunshark becuase of it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 D6Damager wrote:

 Vector Strike wrote:

 ashikenshin wrote:
Yeah I was going to say, do you think Tau tanks are more viable this edition?

As being the only army able to mitigate BS 1 Jink forces on vehicles (others have Twin-link, at most), I believe our vehicles are in a good spot (railgun not so much, needing a 5+ pen/5+ table to explode a Land Raider, from 5+/4+ in 6th)

If you take a hammerhead railgun loadout then always take Longstrike. He makes that one shot count among other things.

Only against IG tanks if your Jinking. Wish he had Tank hunter (all) instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And we really did not loose Rend on the kroot sniper rifles. Sniper still wounds on a 6 (4+) and is still AP2 on a 6. Just not as nice against vehicles.

barnowl wrote:
Only against IG tanks if your Jinking. Wish he had Tank hunter (all) instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And we really did not loose Rend on the kroot sniper rifles. Sniper still wounds on a 6 (4+) and is still AP2 on a 6. Just not as nice against vehicles.

Longstrike's Tank Hunters is a general rule; it's not specific versus IG. His Preferred Enemy is, however.

 Vector Strike wrote:

barnowl wrote:
Only against IG tanks if your Jinking. Wish he had Tank hunter (all) instead.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And we really did not loose Rend on the kroot sniper rifles. Sniper still wounds on a 6 (4+) and is still AP2 on a 6. Just not as nice against vehicles.

Longstrike's Tank Hunters is a general rule; it's not specific versus IG. His Preferred Enemy is, however.

Dang it, I been miss playing him.

I really don't see how the Smash change affects Tau. If the Riptide is in a situation where it actually needs it then its probably already dead.

 Truth118 wrote:
It seems as if the Tau cheese has been turned down a notch or two, not being able to BB with Eldar, cause grounding tests with markerlights or do the Buffmander/O'vesa thing.

I expect Tau will stay top tier because they still have wicked long range shooting and can readily access Ignores Cover. It's still a very shooty edition and the Tau are very shooty.

Tau don't have much long range shooting, this is a misconception. They specialise in 24" to 30" shooting. This is why they counter 'crons so well, because they've got a lot of multi-wound T4 (worst target for S7) and they outperform necrons at their own game.

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I really don't see how the Smash change affects Tau. If the Riptide is in a situation where it actually needs it then its probably already dead.

It is really a boost for Tau. Simply because it makes it harder for the faster MC's to double out suits. Fex are still going do it but are slow enough to out run.

Behold the TRUE british gunline army in 7th:

fireblade
fireblade
X12 fire warrior
X12 fire warrior
x6 pathfinder
x6 pathfinder
x6 pathfinder

Repeat until you fill all the points

Wont get much done, but would be funny to see on the table.

barnowl wrote:

 Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote:
I really don't see how the Smash change affects Tau. If the Riptide is in a situation where it actually needs it then its probably already dead.

It is really a boost for Tau. Simply because it makes it harder for the faster MC's to double out suits. Fex are still going do it but are slow enough to out run.

This. Its something i totally spaced out when dealing with non-vehicles, until i ran bikernobz against a nidzilla list. Normally i'd lose 2-3 nobs per big bug, but he couldnt risk smashing me and my 5++ taking his ONE wound (if it even connected, since im WS5) to paste a nob. They cleaned out 5 big bigs before losing the ablative wound nobz and my pklaws/painboy/waagh banner was exposed. Thats only 2 dudes, btw lol 5 big bugs for 2 nobbikers.

Only way the Smash actually hurts the riptide is when hes charging into a tankline, usually against IG. I attempt it all the time. Worst he can do is tarpit my riptide, but its pretty easy to stay away from a big blob of guardsmen. In general it sucks because if im punching a rear 11, odds are my Str6 probably wont pen it (damn russes...). However i think ive actually DONE this twice in many many games agianst IG - the other methods i have of removing high armor usually wins before my riptide gets there.

Smash was always a last ditch effort, however due to the durabilty of the riptide you could usually get some attacks in.

The best Tau list of 6th, O'Vesastar, has been rendered massively illegal.

The second best Tau list of 6th, TauDar, has also been rendered massively illegal. (Yes, you can have Eldar units but not the important part, their psychics)

And the final nail, the most powerful lists in 7th will be MSU dedicated transport spam. You heard that correctly.

Why? Think about a Ravenwing army with 60 Tactical Marines in Rhinos that can infiltrate. After they combat squad that's 18 Objective Secured units in the midfield T1, backfield T2. And the overwhelming majority of missions will feature objectives.

The fact is, while Tau will remain a "good" shooting army, they do not excel at the most important thing in this edition, and therefore will continue their fall from their brief stay at the apex of the competitive scene.

Tau lists need to bring more markers than in 6th, preferably not in the form of Pathfinders.

A Bastion with Broadsides is fantastic, give them as many target locks as possible and take a buff commander.

That set up will shred most transports.

3 Broadsides average around 5 HP on av12 and with ignore cover you dont have to worry about Jink. So Chimeras/Serpents/Rhinos are pretty easily taken care of by Tau.

The bigger issue is see is things such as imperial knights. I'd recommend tau players to take more fusion than before.

The Shrike wrote:And the final nail, the most powerful lists in 7th will be MSU dedicated transport spam. You heard that correctly.

Why? Think about a Ravenwing army with 60 Tactical Marines in Rhinos that can infiltrate. After they combat squad that's 18 Objective Secured units in the midfield T1, backfield T2. And the overwhelming majority of missions will feature objectives.

The fact is, while Tau will remain a "good" shooting army, they do not excel at the most important thing in this edition, and therefore will continue their fall from their brief stay at the apex of the competitive scene.

I think you meant Raven Guard.
While MSU is interesting for Maelstrom of War, it dies easily to massed fire. And we do have fast stuff to grab objectives - Piranhas, Tetras and hovering Remoras. Even Devilfishes with Fire Warriors can be fast enought to grab stuff (12" move + 6" Flat-out. People inside non-zooming transports get objectives now)
What Tau shouldn't do now are static gunlines. We got fast skimmers, jet pack infantry (6" move, run, assault move), outflanking kroot... it isn't Eldar-levels of mobility, but it's better than many others.

LValx wrote:Tau lists need to bring more markers than in 6th, preferably not in the form of Pathfinders.

A Bastion with Broadsides is fantastic, give them as many target locks as possible and take a buff commander.

That set up will shred most transports.

3 Broadsides average around 5 HP on av12 and with ignore cover you dont have to worry about Jink. So Chimeras/Serpents/Rhinos are pretty easily taken care of by Tau.

The bigger issue is see is things such as imperial knights. I'd recommend tau players to take more fusion than before.

I've tried Broadsides inside a bastion... the enemy had 3 Crypteks with Voltaic Staff :(
But yes, I do think Fusion will have a comeback, now that MCs got some shaft and vehicles are more durable

Bubble wrap the bastion with kroot in order to protect from pods/deepstrikers/flyers. Usually works pretty well. Can also stick ethereal in there for the aura measured from bastion.

 LValx wrote:
Bubble wrap the bastion with kroot in order to protect from pods/deepstrikers/flyers. Usually works pretty well. Can also stick ethereal in there for the aura measured from bastion.

I had the ethereal, but not the kroot masses to bubble wrap it... still, the voltaic staff has 12". It's not easy to put so many kroots to fill such space without taking points from somewhere else that's more useful for your arm...
this works agains emp grenades, though.

20 kroot are cheap and with 2" coherency will block 12"

As good as Broadsides+Bastion+Buffmander is; it's a humongous points load for a single unit that can't by itself dominate a game. Investing 500+ points on a unit like that is not a recipe for victory. Broadsides by themselves with a few target locks are plenty; especially if taken with the Fire Support Cadre for Tank Hunters.

Generally speaking, I agree with the conclusions about more fusion and marker support.

Personally, I'm approaching this edition without concern for holding any ground. My lists will be designed to maximize firepower. I will play to table and failing that, anything can hold an objective in a fix.

Even Devilfishes with Fire Warriors can be fast enought to grab stuff (12" move + 6" Flat-out. People inside non-zooming transports get objectives now)

12" move 12" flat out btw. Skimmer adds 6" to that. And Fast Skimmers are 18" flat out. So piranhas got a little more valuable. If i bring them theyre usually my cockblocker unit that zips across the table to prevent an assault for a turn lol. Now they can grab objectives too, which im liking that idea.

Pretty much any unit the buffmander touches is going to be a 500pt sinkhole. Its actually cheaper in the broadsides because you can ignore the rerolling failed hits upgrade, since broadsides are twinlinked anyway and do you really need 6 BS5 twinlinked marker drones? lol. You can cut more costs if you remove the tankmander statline (iridium armor, shield gen, fnp) but now hes a prime target due to the buffs, and lacks the durability to survive things trying to clear those buffs from that unit. Or score warlord, in my case.

All my non-tau player friends cant seem to understand why i would "waste" a BS5 model for these buffs, when they tend to add ~100pts to his cost and he cant shoot. Yet every tau player i know swears by the buffmander in almost any unit being a far better option than a killing commander, unless you already got a buffmander. Ive ran 2 commanders many times and the 2nd one is usually a pseudo tankmander in a fusion bomb and shield drones...he has FNP and tanks anything that isnt AP2 or instant-death else he tosses it to the drones. Crisis suits, including commanders, are too easy to flatten to give a crap about the BS5 on commanders lol

Why are your only HQ options some type of crisis commander?

Sure Buffmander's and Mark'os are good but how about a good ol' Ethereal?

I was all for the Buffmander in an O'Vesastar list; and I still prefer him to Shadowsun in a Farsight bomb; but I think he's only worth the investment in a massive unit that can single-handedly dictate the game.

Honestly, the aspect I consider a hit is the decrease in power of our Railguns. The Railhead is now horribly ineffective even with Longstrike since you get ONE dice to pen about half of the time but only explode so rarely that you aren't really making up for how few shots you have to work with. Unless we get a Railgun buff, the Railhead is down in viability after an edition in which it was already below optimal without taking an expensive special character.

 The Shrike wrote:
As good as Broadsides+Bastion+Buffmander is; it's a humongous points load for a single unit that can't by itself dominate a game. Investing 500+ points on a unit like that is not a recipe for victory. Broadsides by themselves with a few target locks are plenty; especially if taken with the Fire Support Cadre for Tank Hunters.

Generally speaking, I agree with the conclusions about more fusion and marker support.

Personally, I'm approaching this edition without concern for holding any ground. My lists will be designed to maximize firepower. I will play to table and failing that, anything can hold an objective in a fix.

The Bastion with a comms relay is great. It helps you keep troops off/control reserves. The bastion is great. The Broadsides can be beat up by firepower, it protects them and also gives cover to units. You can jump shoot jump with Crisis/Riptides. With Tank Hunters/Ignores Cover and firing at 3 transports, youll do quite well. it averages 5 HP on av12, ~7 on AV11.

Tau with Farsight

Tau Commander - Puretide, MSS - 120
Etheral - 50

Riptide - HBC, Fusion, Interceptor, Advanced Targeting- 188
Riptide - HBC, Fusion, Interceptor, Advanced Targeting, Earth Caste Array - 218

20 Kroot - 20 Sniper Rounds - 140
20 Kroot - 120
11 Kroot - Hound - 65
11 Kroot - Hound - 65
3 Crisis Suit - 4 Fusion, 2 Target Lock, Flamer - 144
3 Crisis Suit - 2 Missile Pod, 2 Fusion, 2 Target Lock, 1 Drone Controller, 5 Marker Drones - 207

Skyray - 115
Skyray - 115
3 Broadsides - HYMP/SMS, 2 Target Lock, 1 Advanced Targeting - 208
Bastion - Comms - 95

The Bastion provides a nice spot for the Ethereal, his aura is measured from the building. The Broadsides can score an objective depending on placement. 2 Skyrays shores up Anti-air, you've got lots of troops and squads large enough to bubble wrap. There is a fair amount of melta, as I think imperial knights will be tough for Tau armies. With that list you could hypothetically kill ~3-4 serpents in a turn. 5 SMS makes blobs cry. As does ignore cover missile fire. While not as overwhelming as some shooting lists might be, it can pack a nice punch and has a lot of objective secured models. Advanced Targeting allows you to snipe xenos characters. Can mess up farseers, grimoire holders, guardsmen, etc.

I like the Redoubt Myself. Makes a nice solid wall to cockblock tanks while providing surivability to FWs and knocking the last HP off of flyers.

I don't think anyone mentioned it yet but the biggest gain we got from 7e is that everything is scoring. I mean our riptides are scoring! Sit that thing on an objective and it will take your opponent most of his firepower for a turn or two to remove it from the objective outside of close combat. Heck baby sit an objective with 3 missileside and I doubt anyone will try getting close to that unit!

Missilesides are Wyvern Bait. I've always viewed the Riptide as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y983TDjoglQ . Planting a riptide is great until it gets tar-pitted by infantry and gets contested.

Well once infantry units are within the assault range you have to make a choice. Leave the objective or take your chances. First of all they have to get close and will most likely eat a turn or two of shooting unless in assault vehicles. But my main point is they can score. That alone is a huge benefit in my perspective.

I've tried two Mark'O's to great sucesss.

Mobile markerlights (a.k.a. mobile scoring) is definetely very awesome! I've also found that BS5 missile drones afford a cheap way of addition tons of firepower.

Tbh unless it is a larger squad, investing in two weapon systems instead + a target lock gives me more options & firepower than a straight buffmander (given the changes in 7ed). Oh + the PEN chip is also very awesome but making a bound army is difficult, so I'm running a non-whacko unbound army.

Vineheart01 wrote:

Even Devilfishes with Fire Warriors can be fast enought to grab stuff (12" move + 6" Flat-out. People inside non-zooming transports get objectives now)

12" move 12" flat out btw. Skimmer adds 6" to that. And Fast Skimmers are 18" flat out. So piranhas got a little more valuable. If i bring them theyre usually my cockblocker unit that zips across the table to prevent an assault for a turn lol. Now they can grab objectives too, which im liking that idea.

I didn't find any rule giving +6" Flat Out for Skimmers. Even in 6th they only had 6" Flat Out...

Razerous wrote:I've tried two Mark'O's to great sucesss.

Mobile markerlights (a.k.a. mobile scoring) is definetely very awesome! I've also found that BS5 missile drones afford a cheap way of addition tons of firepower.

Missile Drones don't benefit from Drone Controller :/

Ventiscogreen wrote:
Missilesides are Wyvern Bait. I've always viewed the Riptide as https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y983TDjoglQ . Planting a riptide is great until it gets tar-pitted by infantry and gets contested.

Right, Missilesides in a Bastion are not. It means the opposing player has to allocate shots at your Bastion instead of your Skyrays/Riptides/Etc.

The bastion itself is scoring now.

I use ethereals too but what sane player makes an ethereal your warlord? one of the easiest HQs to clean up being T3 with no armor and only a 6+ FNP possibility and...while better than most tau....still crappy melee skills. No possible invul either, even a 6++

Commanders should always be your warlord. I dont even like having Shadowsun as my warlord because that T3 makes her way too easy to clean up, tho shes way tougher than an ethereal since she has the cover thing and a 3+ and 5++

On the skimmer flat out thing, i guess your right. Wonder where we got that from, the FLGS im at now isnt the only one ive been at that had skimmers flat out for 12" instead of 6" - yet youre right, even in 6th it doesnt mention skimmers getting any flat out bonus unless theyre also a fast vehicle.
Well, that puts a thorn in many players' tactics at my FLGS, including my own lol.

Why make a commander your warlord when you can make a Broadside Shas'vre your Warlord?

Uh, how the hell do you make a non-HQ unit your warlord?

*snip* Could you ref. that please - but if your right, many thanks because I've obviously been abusing that!
Edit: Yes read the rulebook. Much appreciate & face-palm.

Back to the drawing board.

Its under the drone controller rules. It states what drones benefit from it, which are gun drones, marker drones, and sniper drones. It doesnt say "All drones" and excludes Missile/Shielded Missile Drones on purpose.

That would easily make the current riptide QQ thread spams be talking about buffmanders + broadsides w/ missiledrone units instead. And that's quite a feat, since riptides seem to be widely regarded as the most broken unit in the game (which they arent. strong, yes, probably a little undercosted, yes, most broken hell no)

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Uh, how the hell do you make a non-HQ unit your warlord?

now any model with the Character type can become your warlord. If you don't have any Character model, any other can become your warlord.
So any 'vre suit or 'ui foot soldier can become your warlord. Kroot Shaper as well

Markers & Mobility.

Two key things in the new tau list.

They were always a key in tau lists, until the overly efficient HYMP nation attacked.

HYMP are literally the only thing we have that is highly immobile. Ive been known for throwing an Ethereal in this unit for leadership bonus, 6+FNP, and pseudo-mobility with Zephyr's Grace. Usually couple this with a firwarrior bubble to maximize his effect. Ive noticed that unless im against an assaulty army, my missilesides are usually JUST out of range of what i want to hit and a ~6" movement usually leaves them a sitting duck, so theyre firing snaps anyway might as well use Zephr's Grace!

Also the warlord comment. Reread the rules and realized they changed it more than i thought. It doesnt force you take highest leadership anymore and says nothing about IC trumping Characters for the job either. So i guess it is legal to have a broadside shas'vre as your warlord even in unbound lists.
Question is though....wtf would you do that for? lol, broadsides arent really that hard to kill and at least crisis suits can move quickly. 2+ armor vs 3+ isnt that big of a deal with most weapons penning said armors paste them anyway (barring plasma and a few choice special weapons you rarely see, but in general cause instant death if it pens 2+ armor)

In terms of mobility, it depends on if you can rely on an additional +2 markerlights on the targets your HYMP are firing into.

I agree, position of the Broadsides is key. It also helps massively if they are your only (or few of) immobile unit. Another point to consider is LOS, as that changes during the course of the game, the lack of mobility can be a challenge.

Edit: Are there any updated rules for the Tetra. What's the most recent source material? If I could ask; as they roughly 4 gun drones cost and are they still allowed to take targeting relays (+1bs?)

Area terrain isn't gone it just has a datasheet for each piece. For example pg 188 "models receive a 5+ regardless of whether or not they are obscured" so it sounds like the same old area terrain to me.

Pg 109 shows many examples of "area terrain"

Vine - the idea of the Broadside Shas'vre as Warlord is that the Tau Warlord table has some very nice abilities for a Broadside commander to have and lets you reroll any of the ones it can't use.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
HYMP are literally the only thing we have that is highly immobile. Ive been known for throwing an Ethereal in this unit for leadership bonus, 6+FNP, and pseudo-mobility with Zephyr's Grace. Usually couple this with a firwarrior bubble to maximize his effect. Ive noticed that unless im against an assaulty army, my missilesides are usually JUST out of range of what i want to hit and a ~6" movement usually leaves them a sitting duck, so theyre firing snaps anyway might as well use Zephr's Grace!

Also the warlord comment. Reread the rules and realized they changed it more than i thought. It doesnt force you take highest leadership anymore and says nothing about IC trumping Characters for the job either. So i guess it is legal to have a broadside shas'vre as your warlord even in unbound lists.
Question is though....wtf would you do that for? lol, broadsides arent really that hard to kill and at least crisis suits can move quickly. 2+ armor vs 3+ isnt that big of a deal with most weapons penning said armors paste them anyway (barring plasma and a few choice special weapons you rarely see, but in general cause instant death if it pens 2+ armor)

You use one as a Warlord for sniping HRR. Give one an ATS and hope to get the 1st warlord trait (any except the 4th are good for this, anyway). The rest of its squad takes target locks and HYMP

Personally, I believe that using Broadsides as AA will be great. Although they are expensive to put a VT on a unit of 3 Missilesides, if you add in the Buffmander you have some serious firepower. Its a shame that they can't take EWO too...

IMO Broadsides are good AA without a VT, they sill hit 31% of the time vs 75%, but with EWO they have a chance to take out units before they shoot, that can't be understated. 30% increase in cost for 240% increase in AA is great, but it doesn't affect the Drones and without Target Locks you have a lot of wasted firepower hitting on 6s, and if you don't run Drines for Abkatice Wounds you are in trouble. Whereas a single Markerlight, or better two from a Skyray's Skyfire Markerlights greatly exceeds the AA broadsides damage potential. Two Markerlights increases the Broadsides Damage Potential vs a Flyer higher than dedicated VTs. Save the VTs for an HBC Riptide, Broadisdes can nuke things with EWO or nuke multiple light Transports with Target Locks.

Broadsides are great against almost everything with EWO, and they still have a better chance than most vs flyers. With a bit of support, they excel at taking out Flyers.

I say, keep your Broadsides EWO and make sure you have a SkyRay or two, Skyfire Markerlights are the real deal for AA. Not to mention the SkyRay blows it's load early and nukes one target anyway.

I personally really like the RailSides.

Range is an issue for the Missilesides and they find it harder to kill vehicles than the Railside does! canny deployment will net you a lot of mileage from even just singular Railsides.

Ax-1-0 all the way

Drones can never score or deny objectives in this codex

Unless they are in a squad inc. Non drone models.

No he's right. easiest place to find it is in the refrence under drones

Razerous wrote:
Unless they are in a squad inc. Non drone models.

This is correct.

So then if a ic joins a squad of drones they can now contest objectives?

TheBoy wrote:
So then if I a ic joins a squad of drones they can now contest objectives?

The IC is a Scoring unit and can control and contest normal objectives so long as an Ibjective Secured unit is not on the objective.

The stipulation is that a unit consisting entirely of drone is nonscoring noncontesting. Adding an IC means that it no longer falls under that ruling so long as the IC is there.

The paragraph talking about drones scoring or not is probably the most clearly written and straight to the point rule in the codex..oddly enough lol.

Its only a few lines, stating any unit composed entirely of drones cannot score or deny. Even in the old rules if an IC joined them this rule was thrown out the window, however they were either FOC-Less because they came off a ship (old rules afaik the drones didnt count as anything foc-related) or were Fast Attack so unlesss it was Scouring all they could do was deny anyway. Now they can score as well as deny or secure behind enemy lines VP. As long as a non-drone model is in the unit, of course.

You all forget, that you can take a Firebase Cadre without touching your Force Organization Chart and give yourself Railsides with FREE Tank Hunter and a Riptide with FREE tank Hunter. Only stipulation is that it must be 3 man broadside teams. I have found Velocity trackers to be expensive, but worth it to turn Broadsides into nasty Anti Air. AP1 is nothing to shrug at, especially now. Hymp Broadsides put you too close to the enemy and can prevent you from using cover. You lose one of the main advantages of our army by using them, that being range. 60" Range in a good vantage point does fun things, and the missile drones you can add give you some serious firepower against anything that closes the distance.

Where are you seeing this?

The only tankhunter in our codex is either Longstrike which is exclusive 45pt once per army upgrade to Hammerheads and Buffmanders which cannot attach to riptides anymore.

You are right AP1 is nothing to scoff at....except its S8 with no chance at double-pen. The only things its going to penetrate is AV11/12, and very rarely AV13. I can glance them to death with MP just as easily and still kill other things. 36" is plenty if you dont hide the broadsides in the back corner (it doesnt help them that much to put them back there). And the HYMP doesnt need VelTrackers to kill fliers due to the sheer volume of fire and twinlinked.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Where are you seeing this?

The only tankhunter in our codex is either Longstrike which is exclusive 45pt once per army upgrade to Hammerheads and Buffmanders which cannot attach to riptides anymore.

You are right AP1 is nothing to scoff at....except its S8 with no chance at double-pen. The only things its going to penetrate is AV11/12, and very rarely AV13. I can glance them to death with MP just as easily and still kill other things. 36" is plenty if you dont hide the broadsides in the back corner (it doesnt help them that much to put them back there). And the HYMP doesnt need VelTrackers to kill fliers due to the sheer volume of fire and twinlinked.

Firebase support cadre formation dataslate

AKA-the most cheesy and powermongering formation in the game that makes some APOC formations look bad.

Honestly, tell me how a riptide and 9 broadside is 40k formation, but 5 phiranas or 3 hammerheads are an apoc only formation?

9 broadsides? i wouldnt call that a free choice, thats 450USD in broadsides alone lol. Pretty much the only reason i never, ever field 2 units of broads

 BoomWolf wrote:
AKA-the most cheesy and powermongering formation in the game that makes some APOC formations look bad.

Honestly, tell me how a riptide and 9 broadside is 40k formation, but 5 phiranas or 3 hammerheads are an apoc only formation?

Its actually a 6 Broadside and 1 Riptide formation. Definitely nasty, Free Tankhunter is outstanding, Preferred Enemy Space Marine is situationally great, but it forces you to soak so many points. Minimum 570pts, but realistically after upgrades its 605+ and then without drones those broadsides are so easy to double out, so even a couple of drones each makes it ~700pts and can reach 800pts decked out with upgrades.

 BoomWolf wrote:
AKA-the most cheesy and powermongering formation in the game that makes some APOC formations look bad.

Honestly, tell me how a riptide and 9 broadside is 40k formation, but 5 phiranas or 3 hammerheads are an apoc only formation?

Dunno, Skyblight can win games all by itself

Personally I am looking more at Fenclaves as being stronger than initial Tau. Not going to go into specifics at this time, but I'll post my experiences of it after the Bay Area Open. Consider it though.

Fenclaves?

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Personally I am looking more at Fenclaves as being stronger than initial Tau. Not going to go into specifics at this time, but I'll post my experiences of it after the Bay Area Open. Consider it though.

I feel Mono TE or Mono FE are at the same power level, but thanks to CADs being based on Faction, not source material you can mix and match to a certain degree. At least that is how Reecius ruled it for the BAO. FE Suits and Riptides with a TE BuffCommander is where it is at.

 BoomWolf wrote:
AKA-the most cheesy and powermongering formation in the game that makes some APOC formations look bad.

Honestly, tell me how a riptide and 9 broadside is 40k formation, but 5 phiranas or 3 hammerheads are an apoc only formation?

It is only 6 Broadsides, but point stands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Zagman wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
AKA-the most cheesy and powermongering formation in the game that makes some APOC formations look bad.

Honestly, tell me how a riptide and 9 broadside is 40k formation, but 5 phiranas or 3 hammerheads are an apoc only formation?

Its actually a 6 Broadside and 1 Riptide formation. Definitely nasty, Free Tankhunter is outstanding, Preferred Enemy Space Marine is situationally great, but it forces you to soak so many points. Minimum 570pts, but realistically after upgrades its 605+ and then without drones those broadsides are so easy to double out, so even a couple of drones each makes it ~700pts and can reach 800pts decked out with upgrades.

Most of the guys I see run it would be running the models any one. So for them the formation is just free Tank Hunter for the units.

 Zagman wrote:
FE Suits and Riptides with a TE BuffCommander is where it is at.

I did this Saturday. Threw a FE commander with dual plasma, target lock, and drone controller into a 3 man suit squad with 2 dual plasma with target lock, 1 dual missile with target lock, and 4 marker drones along with a buffmander. I brought the ECPA Riptide with HBC, with four drones getting BS5 and re-rolls I always had a BS5, re-rolling Nova and re-rolling 1's to hit, with ignoring cover Riptide. The suits were able to split fire like crazy, picking at units of Striking Scorpions and Warpspiders while the missile suit was able to destroy a couple wave serpents.

Dunno why I'm posting this, but I have an urge to share it with some other people. On my last tourney, while fielding a Serpent spam, I faced a very interesting Tau list.
It included this unit: (more or less)
3x Crisis (missle pods, 4 marker drones, all target lock)
Commander (missle pods, skyfire, drone controller, target lock, 2+ armour save, fnp)
Commander (tank/monster hunter, TL, ignore cover, Hit'n'Run, some other nasty stuff)

This thing started game in a Bastion. He also had Hammerhead with Longstrike, Skyray, some cheap troops and an allied Stormraven with Deathcult Assasins and Coteaz in reserves. 1500 points.

I underestimated it's fire power and when it got into it's range it could literally devastate 2 units a turn. That included Wave Serpents. It also added some reliable Markerlights.
On my first turn I only had AV 13/14 to shoot at, so all my WS's could do was to glance his skimmers with Serpent Shields.

There is also a possibility of adding an allied Farsight Enclave Commander with some additional nasty equipment.

 Savageconvoy wrote:

 Zagman wrote:
FE Suits and Riptides with a TE BuffCommander is where it is at.

I did this Saturday. Threw a FE commander with dual plasma, target lock, and drone controller into a 3 man suit squad with 2 dual plasma with target lock, 1 dual missile with target lock, and 4 marker drones along with a buffmander. I brought the ECPA Riptide with HBC, with four drones getting BS5 and re-rolls I always had a BS5, re-rolling Nova and re-rolling 1's to hit, with ignoring cover Riptide. The suits were able to split fire like crazy, picking at units of Striking Scorpions and Warpspiders while the missile suit was able to destroy a couple wave serpents.

Nice, I'm toying with the idea of this running around for 7th as I can't join a BuffCommander to a Riptide anymore

Farsight Enclaves Commander Dual Missile Pods Velocity Tracker and Target Lock

Tau Empire Commander Drone Controller, Shield Generator, Stim Injector, Onager, Iridium, MSS, C&CN, PEN, NSJ, 2xMarker Drones

3xCrisis with Dual Missile Pods, Target Locks, and 6x Marker Drones

8 Twinlinked BS5 Markerlights, 12 Twinlinked BS3 and 4 Twinlinked BS5 Skyfire S7 Ignores Cover Tank/Monster Hunter Shots at up to five different targets all tanked by a 2+/4++/5+++ T5 Commander with expendable marker drones for LOS.

Markerlights then feed VT HBC Riptides and one has an ECPA. Only problem is Majority T4 and the unit can only take a finite number of wounds through the BuffCommander.

Or...

O'Vesa

TE BuffComander

3xCrisis with Dual Missile Pod Suits with Targets Locks

for 12 Twinlinked BS3 and 4 Twinlinked BS2 S7 Missiles and an Ion Accelerator/Fusion Blaster all with Ignores Cover and Tank/Monster Hunter at up to 4 different targets out of a Majority T6 Unit with a 2+/4++/5+++ and 2+/5(3)++/5+++ Tanking.

It should still be a legal set up as you are joining the Buffcommander to the suits, then joining O'Vesa to them. Doesn't great the IC joinin a unit with a MC. As it occurs during your "turn" you as the controlling player get to decide the order of operations.

This is definitely a tankier setup, but requires me to take Farsight and waste an ECPA on O'Vesa...

Obviously these are my tournament builds, and I'm debating which one is my front runner to bring to NOVA. I also have some variation that ally with my Eldar.

 Zagman wrote:

 Commander_Farsight wrote:
Personally I am looking more at Fenclaves as being stronger than initial Tau. Not going to go into specifics at this time, but I'll post my experiences of it after the Bay Area Open. Consider it though.

I feel Mono TE or Mono FE are at the same power level, but thanks to CADs being based on Faction, not source material you can mix and match to a certain degree. At least that is how Reecius ruled it for the BAO. FE Suits and Riptides with a TE BuffCommander is where it is at.

100% Agree!!

Firebase Cadre is kind of cheesed in all honesty. Still, at the point values I desire to play, the formation isn't exactly a bad idea. Rail-sides without the tank-hunter aren't bad either, though they lost 50% of Table Rolls explode, which is less of them being less effective and more of vehicles being a bitch to kill in general. I find s7 to be very disappointing for fighting anything with an armor value above twelve. Having the emergency HP shots against a Raider was the selling point for the Railsides.

Longstrike is not as terrible as the internet has us believe. The preference is just for Broadsides for tournament play. You are still hitting on a 2+ with Tank Hunter with incredible range and will vehicle destroy on a 5+. If you really need that one shot to count then that is what markerlights are for.

I also have moved to railsides with max missile drones on a Skyshield for 7th. There's also enough space on the Skyshield for a pathfinder unit or Skyray depending on the need for protection. You can even give cover to your Riptide.

Add Farsight bomb with fusions for the increasingly frequent Lords of War, IKs, and the return of the AM parking lots that are now starting to see play.

Troops are Min squad firewarriors in devilfish, and 2 man missile pod/flamer crisis suits for objective secured grabbing. Reserve/deepstrike as needed. I have moved away from Kroot with the nerf to sniper rifles.

Classic Hammer and Anvil tactics.

Hazards, are as good as ever, I'm pleased to announce. I love them, they are very fun.

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Hazards, are as good as ever, I'm pleased to announce. I love them, they are very fun.

You mean "not good at all"?

They were never any good. everything about them is overpriced to hell and back, then to narnia.

 BoomWolf wrote:

 Co'tor Shas wrote:
Hazards, are as good as ever, I'm pleased to announce. I love them, they are very fun.

You mean "not good at all"?

They were never any good. everything about them is overpriced to hell and back, then to narnia.

I don't know about you, but I find them quite good. It's all about how you use them I suppose. They are a bit expensive, I will agree, but they are quite versatile, and fit in a FA slot, which I don't use in any case (I find pathfinders always die to quickly to be any use to me, and it's either that or piranhas).

i thought the general consensus about FW suits were they were utter garbage? ive literally never heard anything good about ANY tau FW outside the barracuda/remora.

Models are epic though. I use an XV89 for my non-buffmander commander and Shas'O R'Myre or whatever the gak his name was for my buffmander. Lovely models. Wish the normal Crisis suits were that cool.

The biggest issue I have with the XV-9 is that you have to buy the suit with a single weapon load out. Instead of selling the body and weapons separately or with all options.

The hammerhead variants are terrible since they're still 2 weapons, the kroot options are a terrible joke (majority T3 MC should have the author of it shot), and others are just too expensive to be considered worth it.

 Vineheart01 wrote:
ive literally never heard anything good about ANY tau FW outside the barracuda/remora.

Never heard of tetras then? they are quite nice to have for a mobile army.

As for Rmy'r and Ralai, both are actually pretty good. not cheesy, but good.

Rmy'r is all out there with random upgrades, but costs surprisingly little when looking at the prices of comparable wargear, while Ralai is pretty much an all-purpose glass cannon (liturally all purpose, he deals nasty damage to nearly target in the game, only elite low model count Sv2+ guys are safe.)



As for other stuff, kroot are as said a bad joke, the sensor and gun turrent variants are overpriced, the superheavies are overpriced (even the mere 300 point orca. you do NOT want to give the enemy the benefits of fighting a LoW for THAT), the hammerhead guns are subpar, the TX-42 are overpriced too (pattern?), heavy gun drones are in the wrong slot, experimental suits are AGAIN overpriced, gue'vesa are useless (though they take the crown for cheapest unit in the game after minimal inquisition warbands at mere 25 points for minimum squad)
As for the HS riptide, after the change he is...workable but not impressive.


So yea, FW have us with tetras and barracudas as the good guys, ralai and rmyr as the "decent", remoras and heavytides as "workable". everything else either costs too much to be of note, or is just bad outright.

Quick question about the Tau tanks / skimmers to better understand the changes of v7 on you guys:

For shooting skimmers, how much does jinking reduce your firepower on the next turn, in realistic scenarios including markerlights and all that ?

XV-9s aren't bad, they're just too expensive to be more useful than XV-8s.

Hammerhead with missile pods aren't a bad AA platform, when your missiles won't expend themselves. I'd rather a Barracuda, though.

I've been running FE suits list (fusion mark'o, some drones in an all fusion crisis / target lock team, three double burst suit team, double missile crisis by two, double flamer crisis by two, HBC ECPA tide, ion/fusion tide, another of the same in a FBSC with HYMP/SMS sides, a Skyray and a bunker with Comms relay).

I've been loving 7th and loving the jump-shoot-jump army. Much more fun to play than my necrons were. I can see why people get hooked on eldar - mobility is cool! Sneaky is cool! I reckon if I can develop better deployment strategies (at the moment I just start the b/sides, riptides and skyray in reserves every game and then drop the suits turn two) and figure a way to help deepstrike (maybe swapping commander for farsight and rethinking marker support delivery?) then I reckon I have a serviceable win-some-but-lose-some tournament list.

Not feeling lost in 7th with tau, but it ain't seercouncil or summoning star. I guess?

Tau got some nerfs and lost the MC/IC combo, but otherwise, it's still a very strong codex.

 Vector Strike wrote:

 Vineheart01 wrote:
Uh, how the hell do you make a non-HQ unit your warlord?

now any model with the Character type can become your warlord. If you don't have any Character model, any other can become your warlord.
So any 'vre suit or 'ui foot soldier can become your warlord. Kroot Shaper as well

What page of the Rulebook does this say its on? Might want to try that tomorrow.

The one that is telling you how to pick your warlord.
Under no part of it does it say it has to be an HQ. just a character.
Not even an independent one.

Did crisis suits lose the ability to take two of the same weapons (and be able to shoot them seperatly) instead of having to twinlink them? I don't see anywhere in the 7th ed. FAQ that allows us to do that?

 mangrove yeti wrote:
Did crisis suits lose the ability to take two of the same weapons (and be able to shoot them seperatly) instead of having to twinlink them? I don't see anywhere in the 7th ed. FAQ that allows us to do that?

The FAQ was a clarification, it's still doable RAW. You are given the option to take Single Versions of weapons, or a double Twinlinked version. No where is buying two single options prohibited or buying the Twinlinked version mandatory.

You simply declare, I'm buying a Single Missile pod for 15pt and one slot, and I'm buying another single missile pod for 15pts and a second slot.

Also, this probably should have gone in YMDC.

OK cool, thanks!

Since its relevant in this thread i'll post it.

My FLGS usually runs 2k lists. I used to run 4 10man squads of bonded firewarriors with shas'ui and ML/TLock. I have since cut two units, filled the other two to 12 (11 if i use ethereals), and added in 2 devilfish with dpods and spines.

I am pleasently shocked how well those things are doing. My last 2k list was heavy armor themed. Was actually intending to field 5 piranha, 2 devilfish, a skyray, and a hammerhead but i accidently left my hammerhead in a box i dont bring with me so i ended up swapping it for a riptide (same cost since i had longstrike). The devilfish give me a very nasty up close SUPER DAKKA rate of fire on something (23 FW under 15" with the ethereal's extra dakka "spell" = 69 shots lol giggity) and theyre durable enough with the 3+ jink that they just do not die. In five games since i started using them, i have not lost a single one. Also make excellent Tankshock platforms once i disembark the drones/FW and theres no nearby objectives to steal.

Actually tempted to start bringing a third.

7th has made devilfish stupid tough. The main downside to jink doesn't really hurt devilfish much thanks to the TL on the drones it comes with. Just played a game with an all mechanized and suit list and I nearly tabled my opponent on turn 2. He conceded with nothing left but a flyer and an immobile dread. We both decided afterwords that all the vehicles just required too much firepower to stop for him to effectively deal with my army.

I don't see how being twin linked makes snapshotting not a problem.

Twin linked doesn't make snap shooting not a problem it makes it less of a problem. This is because you have twice the chance to get a 6 to hit.

And a single marker light token boosts your odds of hitting to 5/9.

 Punisher Gatling Cannon wrote:
Twin linked doesn't make snap shooting not a problem it makes it less of a problem. This is because you have twice the chance to get a 6 to hit.

Exactly. Guess I should have been more clear. Basically what I'm getting at is having a skimmer transport with a 3+ is very nice.

Uh, problem with the drone thing.

Jink does not affect passengers. Gun drones are a passenger that must fire at the same target of the vehicle. This means a fish that moves 6" can fire drones and bursts at full BS, but a piranha moving 12" fires the drones via snapshots.
Also means they dont count for weapon destroyed.

Dont believe me? Read the page on drones word for word so you dont accidentally skip it. They count as passengers, which is awesome for Fish bad for Piranha. And no they dont take max capacity since theyre outside the vehicle.

They're still pretty tough, but the problem is they're still very expensive. Though now that they're Objective Secured scoring units I guess that does help to justify them. 105 points for a 12/11/10 skimmer that doesn't take dangerous terrain tests and a 3+ cover save isn't too bad, especially since it'd probably be ignored for the most part.

Tank shocking a unit to clear an objective and steal it does sound like a fun thing to do now though.

How is everyone dealing with T2 assaulting armies? In a recent tournament I had a tough time against a CSM spawn star and a Daemon list with tons of Khornedogs, and a screamerstar with invisibility shenanigans thrown in. I would imagine new orks with their wonky waagh rules could get a bottom T1 charge off with massed trucks.

The point beng...is assault back? And how do we deal with it? I play enclaves but castling up is almost never a good idea, and I'm not fast enough to get away from the quicker assault elements of CSM and Daemons.

Thoughts?

Is assault back? I don't think so personally.
There are some units that happen to be fast and strong enough to make it to assault that they can make it work despite the rules, but for the most part no I don't think assault is all that viable.

As for dealing with early assault, the best ways are probably to hope for some marker light hits first in overwatch so the rest of your units can hit the opponent hard enough to knock em out of range. Otherwise load everything you can in transports so even if they do reach you, the vehicle dies and not the unit inside.

 TNT925 wrote:
Is assault back? I don't think so personally.
There are some units that happen to be fast and strong enough to make it to assault that they can make it work despite the rules, but for the most part no I don't think assault is all that viable.

As for dealing with early assault, the best ways are probably to hope for some marker light hits first in overwatch so the rest of your units can hit the opponent hard enough to knock em out of range. Otherwise load everything you can in transports so even if they do reach you, the vehicle dies and not the unit inside.

Most armies aren't going to have that many fast units.
Just throw a disposable unit in the way to block their path.

I would warn against beleiving that. I have been playing a Chaos Space Marines force and now a Dark Eldar force that positively crushes things in combat, can circumvent your blockers in many cases and uses close combat as its primary (though not exclusive) anti-vehicle measure since vehicles are harder to pummel into submission now. In the Dark eldar build, it has three units that charge round 2 if not before with ferocity. I can wreck four Wave Serpents in round 2 with relatively little chance of failure or have 3 Riptide tied up interminably if not dead by round 2.

I'm seeing more hammers in armies now. Im seeing late game turn arounds in Maelstrom missions also from having a melee presence. I think its worth reconsidering. Melee is making a very positive showing for me.

Is assault back? I don't think so personally.
There are some units that happen to be fast and strong enough to make it to assault that they can make it work despite the rules, but for the most part no I don't think assault is all that viable.

As for dealing with early assault, the best ways are probably to hope for some marker light hits first in overwatch so the rest of your units can hit the opponent hard enough to knock em out of range. Otherwise load everything you can in transports so even if they do reach you, the vehicle dies and not the unit inside.

Well.

I fought Tau recently. Wanted to try a Dark eldar idea out. Three hammers in the Force. Round 1, I was on his doorstep with every transport I had.

He spent his units killing mostly 3 HP hull transports. and that was fine. the next round, I had his Broadsides and two Riptides in melee, his Fire Warriors Crisped with Liquifiers and his leader charged by Trueborn of all things. The game was effectively over when I didn't finish most of them off the round of the charge. Perfect timing. Safe inside their hugs.

and while all this was going on I quietly bounced around free to take whatever objectives i pleased with a few little back field units.

Im noit saying it couldnt have gone different. But I am telling you that I dictated his choices entirely. And thats a statement worth mentioning.

melee that is slower has a lesser advantage. Blood Angels deep striking in still have to take that round of shooting. but when you can effectively pull off a round one deep strike and effectively stay IN your drop pod...good times. Goooood times. I bet the Space Wolves would give their left nut for a drop pod that works like that.

Tau players are getting lazy and sure of themselves and the Ork Horde Detachment and othe things are making me think its time to respect melee a little more.

I am primarily a Tau General. But I play all kinds of armies and I am just cautioning against too much over generalization on this subject. Assault armies have evolved and rhino rushes are better, Raider Rush's are downright frightening and whats inside is not friendly.

 The Shrike wrote:
How is everyone dealing with T2 assaulting armies? In a recent tournament I had a tough time against a CSM spawn star and a Daemon list with tons of Khornedogs, and a screamerstar with invisibility shenanigans thrown in. I would imagine new orks with their wonky waagh rules could get a bottom T1 charge off with massed trucks.

The point beng...is assault back? And how do we deal with it? I play enclaves but castling up is almost never a good idea, and I'm not fast enough to get away from the quicker assault elements of CSM and Daemons.

Thoughts?

I run a 8-10 drone screen for just this purpose. It provides a nice solid front and can be long enough to trip a lot Supporting Fire to hammer that early charge. And lets face it drones are as good or better in melee than FWs. Heck had a shield drones tie up wraiths and save an ethereal's butt.