Since it seems that the Heldrake is no longer one of the best flyers in the game. It still seems to be somewhat viable, but would the Baleflamer still be the go to weapon or the Hades Autocannon?
For one, it's impossible to draw LoS from the "Gun Barrel" since the drakes nose is always pointed down and over the gun (Even if you wanted to state that RAI just measure from the tip of the nose, that doesn't mean the model itself is any less broken with the new rules)
The Hades Autocannon also bloody sucks for the simple reason that you can't shoot enemy flyers at rear armor now (Which was the main reason for even considering the Hades Autocannon over the Baleflamer) Now that you cannot do so, there is never a reason to take the gun, ever.
Our Vector Strike got nerfed against ground units in junction with our ability to pop Transports then subsequently burn the little buggers who survive, so again, the drake is boned.
I'm no longer fielding them. They're on the shelf. I'll be taking Forge World models like Hell Talons and Hell Blades from now on. At least they're cheaper and have their functionality maintained throughout the past year and a bit.
Most of my armies are still terrified of the Helldrake. It can still basically kill a template's worth of any infantry short of TEQ the turn it comes on, almost anywhere on the board.
The changes mean:
-it won't put a big dent in the unit it Vectors
-its targets after the first can reasonably get out of the way
-it is now even harder to kill
-Open Topped expose their contents
Definitely a nerf, but still rough for some lists.
It is still worth bringing 1 or 2 of them. The reasons being;
1) you can flame valuable units in buildings and open topped transports
2) the vector strike is still some of the best AACSM (d3 AP2 hits is pretty good) has and is still useful for helping to take out transports.
3) Heldrakes got way more durable as with the changes to explodes they will get to IWND a lot more and they will get to take a 5+ invulnerable more against RoFHP stripping
4) they can get grimoired and have curse earth increase their invulnerable saves
5) skyfire now snap shots against ground targets even with intercerptor
So what we have is a tougher vehicle that is limited in it's maneuvering now. With all the changes that have happened the heldrake is still the premiere CSMAA unit and the baleflamer actually gained an entire new target range of open topped vehicle occupants. It is still a good unit it is just not ridiculously under priced like it has been.
The vehicle damage table also hurt flyers just as much if not more than it did help them. Oh sure, you need at least an AP2 weapon to out right cause an explodes result, but being immobilized is now terrifying for anything that's a flyer.
Lets say you take a penetrating hit from something that ISN'T ap1 or ap2. You fail your 5++ (As it most likely will) You then have your opponent roll a 6 for his Damage Table, and you roll a 1-2. Goodbye flyer. Full hull points, first turn on the board, crash and burned.
The gun is no longer treated as a turret, as that was removed from the FAQ. It's back to being a 45 degree arc, rather than 360. So you would have to fly up right behind the enemies flyer and line it up just right, which isn't a common situation.
For one, it's impossible to draw LoS from the "Gun Barrel" since the drakes nose is always pointed down and over the gun (Even if you wanted to state that RAI just measure from the tip of the nose, that doesn't mean the model itself is any less broken with the new rules).
That is the lamest excuse to not bring a vehicle ever. Stating a model cannot draw line of sight because of the way its constructed is the dumbest claim ever. People tried that with numerous models that "dont have eyes" and it got shot down every time. Its not a hull mounted gun, so it can pivot even if its modeled fixed.
Helldrakes are still strong, theyre just not auto-win broken for the cost like they were. My friend used them before the turret-FAQ to great success, all that faq did is make him not even have to think about how to use it. Welcome to every other flier's life of having to "aim" the vehicle.
For one, it's impossible to draw LoS from the "Gun Barrel" since the drakes nose is always pointed down and over the gun (Even if you wanted to state that RAI just measure from the tip of the nose, that doesn't mean the model itself is any less broken with the new rules).
That is the lamest excuse to not bring a vehicle ever. Stating a model cannot draw line of sight because of the way its constructed is the dumbest claim ever. People tried that with numerous models that "dont have eyes" and it got shot down every time. Its not a hull mounted gun, so it can pivot even if its modeled fixed.
Helldrakes are still strong, theyre just not auto-win broken for the cost like they were. My friend used them before the turret-FAQ to great success, all that faq did is make him not even have to think about how to use it. Welcome to every other flier's life of having to "aim" the vehicle.
Take it as you will. But RAW It's correct. Lame or not RAI or not, RAW it's impossible to draw Direct LOS from the models "Barrel" not to mention the actual problems with the Drake being slanted to the point you wonder genetic purity, and inbreeding, due to the neck curving the model is never straight anyways. So technically you could even get away with Flying the dumb thing around and away from the actual models you'd like to fire at and the stupid thing can actually SEE the models it wants JUST BECAUSE the position of the neck pulls to the left of the model. If you fly by the right of the models you'd wish to Shoot at, you'd bypass the whole shibang.
Take it as you will. But RAW It's correct. Lame or not RAI or not, RAW it's impossible to draw Direct LOS from the models "Barrel" not to mention the actual problems with the Drake being slanted to the point you wonder genetic purity, and inbreeding, due to the neck curving the model is never straight anyways. So technically you could even get away with Flying the dumb thing around and away from the actual models you'd like to fire at and the stupid thing can actually SEE the models it wants JUST BECAUSE the position of the neck pulls to the left of the model. If you fly by the right of the models you'd wish to Shoot at, you'd bypass the whole shibang.
This is a non-issue. 99% of players are not donkey-caves.
Ontop of that. It is very reasonable to assume the drakes 'Pivot Point' is at the base of the head. Like most heads, it has a range of motion and movement, such as shaking your head in disgust at unreasonable rules-lawyers.
For one, it's impossible to draw LoS from the "Gun Barrel" since the drakes nose is always pointed down and over the gun (Even if you wanted to state that RAI just measure from the tip of the nose, that doesn't mean the model itself is any less broken with the new rules)
The Hades Autocannon also bloody sucks for the simple reason that you can't shoot enemy flyers at rear armor now (Which was the main reason for even considering the Hades Autocannon over the Baleflamer) Now that you cannot do so, there is never a reason to take the gun, ever.
Our Vector Strike got nerfed against ground units in junction with our ability to pop Transports then subsequently burn the little buggers who survive, so again, the drake is boned.
I'm no longer fielding them. They're on the shelf. I'll be taking Forge World models like Hell Talons and Hell Blades from now on. At least they're cheaper and have their functionality maintained throughout the past year and a bit.
So the helldrakes not a noob cannon any more. Not a big deal. Now instead of being OP you actually have to plan ahead, move strategically etc. Not really a big deal.
I for one am glad that they changed the rules so its less broke. It was so dirty before that i refused to play it. Now i have one on my work bench.
The flamer is still the go to for me. Str 6 AP 3 soulblaze is still great for removing marines by the handful. Most players play marines thus making the flamer template the weapon of choice.
sennacherib wrote: Nice Azreal13
Good to see i wasnt the only one who held out on being part of the dairy fest!
What's more cheese?
The fact Heldrakes were "Decent" back with the turret mounted weapon, or the fact 3 tides is still a thing that hasn't gotten ANY fixing or FAQ to the BEST monstrous creature in the game. Never mind the simple fact it has absurd firing capabilities, is prominent in EVERY Tau list and tournament taking the top 5 spots, but also has the best survivability of any MC out there for it's under costed value? I don't know why you seemed to think it was so potent when you could simply take skyfire and blow them out of the sky like everyone already did...
The increase in durability for heldrakes does not in any way make up for their loss of damage potential.
As others have said:
Loss of turret makes the bale flamer much more difficult to use. Fast armies like bikes have much less to fear now.
Loss of turret also makes hades totally useless. Before it was viable for vector striking over targets and then hitting their rear armour if they survive.
Both of the above weapons can no longer vector strike and then shoot the same target. (No more popping a transport and then flaming the insides).
Vector strike nerf is a straight damage reduction vs most targets.
The heldrake didn't need any more durability. 12 AV and a 5++ save regating the need to jink, + IWND, already make it a tough nut to crack. Losing its damage potential however harms its competitiveness greatly.
Consider a landraiders for a comparison. Whilst very hard to kill, many armies are able to ignore them (at least more so before they were scoring) as they simply do not do enough damage for their points cost.
The heldrake seems to have inherited the same problem, though to a lesser degree.
With good movement planning the heldrake will still be able to cause a lot of damage on the right targets, and CSM players are still likely to bring 1 or 2, as they have few other good choices, however it is certain that we will see a reduction in the number of drakes on the table, particularly as allies, as they are no longer the big cheese they once were.
The fact Heldrakes were "Decent" back with the turret mounted weapon, or the fact 3 tides is still a thing that hasn't gotten ANY fixing or FAQ to the BEST monstrous creature in the game. Never mind the simple fact it has absurd firing capabilities, is prominent in EVERY Tau list and tournament taking the top 5 spots, but also has the best survivability of any MC out there for it's under costed value? I don't know why you seemed to think it was so potent when you could simply take skyfire and blow them out of the sky like everyone already did...
Actually, they did get nerfed hard, just indirectly. Buffmanders can't join Tides anymore. A Riptide without ignore cover and TL is just decent.
sennacherib wrote: Nice Azreal13
Good to see i wasnt the only one who held out on being part of the dairy fest!
What's more cheese?
The fact Heldrakes were "Decent" back with the turret mounted weapon, or the fact 3 tides is still a thing that hasn't gotten ANY fixing or FAQ to the BEST monstrous creature in the game. Never mind the simple fact it has absurd firing capabilities, is prominent in EVERY Tau list and tournament taking the top 5 spots, but also has the best survivability of any MC out there for it's under costed value? I don't know why you seemed to think it was so potent when you could simply take skyfire and blow them out of the sky like everyone already did...
"Heldrakes were fine cause Riptides" isn't exactly a strong nor relevant argument.
You're right in that, in the singular, they weren't too bad, but they weren't a 0-1 choice, they were available to CSM players in multiples, more so in 7th, and weren't exactly a lot of points for what you got.
Riptides are a flawed unit, in that they were costed badly, but if you want to discuss that further I suggest you start another thread entitled "Riptide 7th Edition" because this thread is about Heldrakes, and justifying one badly designed unit by the existence of another isn't going to hold a lot of water, it is just a shame they fixed one and didn't (yet) fix the other.
Sold my three. Ran 2 baleflamers and 1 hades. As mentioned the Hades is near worthless. Vector strike nerf was not as bad as the hull mounted weapon. Trying to actually move and flame something 12 inches away and directly in front of you isn't so easy. Other fliers have much longer ranged weapons and most are twin linked.
Sure they can fly out and flame a unit. They just made them do less potential damage over the game. Most units can outmaneuver the heldrake now.
Helldrake was one the most broken units in the game (along with wave serpent, riptide and so on...). Now, it is still very, i mean VERY good, because he also get a nice buff. Look to the vehicle dammage chart and tell me, how will a player kill a helldrake? Most probably by HP striping. Its IWND rule is now so much better than before. Also, skyfire weapons, which were much used by so many armies (quad, icarus) are probably gone now thanks to the change of interceptor rules.
And even with the new limited firearc, the drake can STILL hit whatever he wants on the table. Its just not a WIN button against some types of armies...
All nerfs and buffs counted, this unit is still the best in the CHM codex and still one of the best units in the game.
Lothar wrote: The crying chaos players are really awesome!
Helldrake was one the most broken units in the game (along with wave serpent, riptide and so on...). Now, it is still very, i mean VERY good, because he also get a nice buff. Look to the vehicle dammage chart and tell me, how will a player kill a helldrake? Most probably by HP striping. Its IWND rule is now so much better than before. Also, skyfire weapons, which were much used by so many armies (quad, icarus) are probably gone now thanks to the change of interceptor rules.
And even with the new limited firearc, the drake can STILL hit whatever he wants on the table. Its just not a WIN button against some types of armies...
All nerfs and buffs counted, this unit is still the best in the CHM codex and still one of the best units in the game.
Yeah, its may still the best unit in the CSM codex.
But this also says something about the codex itself.
Really? You have a frikkin flamer you can orient any direction you want except back towards the drake itself. Your guns are just as effective as those on every other flyer out there and you still get IWND. Its still a better, tougher, flyer than most flyers out there but now you have their negative too, the whole part about having to think about how to use it as it flies over the board. Quit complaining about it and simply learn how to use flyers like the rest of us did when 6th came out.
Its just a flamer template, its for taking out infantry and probably only 4 at a time if your opponent has a clue. You can flame whoever you want on the first turn, after that its quite easy to just move out of the way. It costs enough points that it needs to kill multiple squads to be worth taking. A single heldrake was never broken, taking multiples was. Now a single drake is mediocre, and multiples aren't hurt as much. This is because multiples can work together to not allow your opponent to outmaneuver them. A single drake may get to kill 4 models twice a game. Not really worth it. Heldrake hate is unwarranted and just a meme at this point, much like flying BA landraiders and Matt Ward codices.
Its further RAW unusable now if you consider the 45 degree vertical limit. That only allows 22.5 deg up and 22.5 degree down from its modeled line of fire. The model does point it slightly down but following the hull mounted rules and measure out the arc you cannot legally place the small end of the template within 12" of the base because nowhere in the firing arc is within 12" of the base.
I only have one Heldrake, and didn't have a chance to use it when it was cheese. I still want to use it, but hoping its not as bad as some have said. I am still looking forward to using it and seeing how it fairs now. I'm glad to see multiple points of views here.
Did all of the anti-Heldrake people forget "EXPLODE" is still a thing? Yeah, we get the same invuln save all our daemons do and IWND is great if the Heldrake survives a round of "OMG KILL EET!" from loyalists and Tau, but you can still shoot the damn thing out of the air with a well placed Lazcannon shot and since Loyalist fliers seem to have two TL Lazcannons at their disposal, plus another two batteries of wtf to shoot, they've got a good shot of bypassing all of the Heldrakes defenses before it can make its points back with the Baleflamer.
So this stupid argument that "Chaos should stop crying" can stop coming from non-Chaos players. EVERY OTHER FLIER OUT THERE, for utility purposes and army synchronicity, is better than the Heldrake PERIOD. The only reason you clowns are so afraid of the Iron Dragon in the first place is because it killed your precious infantry the way Tau kill infantry in turn 1.
The Heldrake is a solo-act, even when flying with other Heldrakes. It's a harasser and a support flier. It's not transporting troops with deadly accuracy and it's not putting 6+ hits onto whatever it wants all the time, either.
As I've said earlier, anyone want to argue the finer points of the Heldrake, I'd like to see some emperical evidence besides the collective sigh of relief when someone pulls a stick out of someone elses rear armor. As it has been mentioned again and again, Chaos had exactly ONE good unit to combat the overly good codex's and units we're up agianst which include Riptides, Buffmanders, Wraithknights, etc. Sorry ya'll were getting cold sweats over the dragon, but that's all we bloody got! DEAL WITH IT THE SAME WAY YOU ARE DEMANDING WE DEAL WITH THIS CHANGE AND MAYBE THE RESPECT WILL LAST LONGER.
Fact of the matter is, perhaps the loyalists+ should've been more creative with the greater armory they have instead of demanding that Chaos stay under its boot heels by nerfing every decent thing we get, and that includes FMC's as well. Tell me something...what big hit did the Space Marines take again? I heard something about Vendetta's. Do ya'll have hull mounted weapons now too? Did they take away your hover? Maybe your assault marines cost an arm and a leg now? Did they take away your ability to barrage with Thunderfire cannons because we have no barrage period. And no sky fire. No monster hunters. No scouts, no infiltraters, no snipers.
Oh, but at least we got our Heldrakes neck broke. Nub.
Solomongrundy wrote: I only have one Heldrake, and didn't have a chance to use it when it was cheese. I still want to use it, but hoping its not as bad as some have said. I am still looking forward to using it and seeing how it fairs now. I'm glad to see multiple points of views here.
Lol, Drake is not bad at all! This is all just a nerdrage from players feeling butthurt...helldrake really was one of the most OP things in wh40k and it really needed to be toned down. After this, there is hope that other OP units will also one day be more balanced. Hope its soon, since the game is anything but balanced in its current state.
Automatically Appended Next Post: TheRedWingArmada - Yeah, exploding Drake with LC.. 6+ to hit, 4+ to pen, 6+ to explode, but 5+ save for enemy...do the math, you cant relly on this...(its not even 1% for one lascannon) - so yes, chaos should stop crying because this is crying, nothing more. Its without reason or thinking.
Not to mention that Helldrake was better than "EVERY OTHER FLIER OUT THERE" (quoting you).
TheRedWingArmada - Yeah, exploding Drake with LC.. 6+ to hit, 4+ to pen, 6+ to explode, but 5+ save for enemy...do the math, you cant relly on this...(its not even 1% for one lascannon) - so yes, chaos should stop crying because this is crying, nothing more. Its without reason or thinking.
So actually use your models to shut it down. The game isn't all just pew pew. As a guard player (judging by your avatar) you should be the least worried about it. Do you really care about 4 guardsmen a turn? Furthermore guard has so much board control you can really keep it from doing much of anything.
Did all of the anti-Heldrake people forget "EXPLODE" is still a thing? Yeah, we get the same invuln save all our daemons do and IWND is great if the Heldrake survives a round of "OMG KILL EET!" from loyalists and Tau, but you can still shoot the damn thing out of the air with a well placed Lazcannon shot and since Loyalist fliers seem to have two TL Lazcannons at their disposal, plus another two batteries of wtf to shoot, they've got a good shot of bypassing all of the Heldrakes defenses before it can make its points back with the Baleflamer.
So this stupid argument that "Chaos should stop crying" can stop coming from non-Chaos players. EVERY OTHER FLIER OUT THERE, for utility purposes and army synchronicity, is better than the Heldrake PERIOD. The only reason you clowns are so afraid of the Iron Dragon in the first place is because it killed your precious infantry the way Tau kill infantry in turn 1.
The Heldrake is a solo-act, even when flying with other Heldrakes. It's a harasser and a support flier. It's not transporting troops with deadly accuracy and it's not putting 6+ hits onto whatever it wants all the time, either.
As I've said earlier, anyone want to argue the finer points of the Heldrake, I'd like to see some emperical evidence besides the collective sigh of relief when someone pulls a stick out of someone elses rear armor. As it has been mentioned again and again, Chaos had exactly ONE good unit to combat the overly good codex's and units we're up agianst which include Riptides, Buffmanders, Wraithknights, etc. Sorry ya'll were getting cold sweats over the dragon, but that's all we bloody got! DEAL WITH IT THE SAME WAY YOU ARE DEMANDING WE DEAL WITH THIS CHANGE AND MAYBE THE RESPECT WILL LAST LONGER.
Fact of the matter is, perhaps the loyalists+ should've been more creative with the greater armory they have instead of demanding that Chaos stay under its boot heels by nerfing every decent thing we get, and that includes FMC's as well. Tell me something...what big hit did the Space Marines take again? I heard something about Vendetta's. Do ya'll have hull mounted weapons now too? Did they take away your hover? Maybe your assault marines cost an arm and a leg now? Did they take away your ability to barrage with Thunderfire cannons because we have no barrage period. And no sky fire. No monster hunters. No scouts, no infiltraters, no snipers.
Oh, but at least we got our Heldrakes neck broke. Nub.
Just curious, do you randomly shout bits of what you're saying to people in real life, or is it just something you reserve for us poor souls on the Internet?
As you bring up matters of respect, you may find that posting your thoughts in calm, well thought out manner will earn you more, because, in all honesty your posting style right now comes across like an over caffeinated toddler, and it's undermining your credibility.
Automatically Appended Next Post: TheRedWingArmada - Yeah, exploding Drake with LC.. 6+ to hit, 4+ to pen, 6+ to explode, but 5+ save for enemy...do the math, you cant relly on this...(its not even 1% for one lascannon) - so yes, chaos should stop crying because this is crying, nothing more. Its without reason or thinking.
Not to mention that Helldrake was better than "EVERY OTHER FLIER OUT THERE" (quoting you).
He was specifically talking about fliers with TL lascannons. So 3+ rerollable to hit, not 6+. Doesn't make the odds wonderful, but much better.
The Vendetta, pre-AM, was hands down the best flyer around. With AM, it's still good (still the best imo), but they did that by upping the points cost and dropping transport capacity. This FAQ took what made the heldrake great and put it back to mediocre. If the rest of the codex were a bit more competitive, I doubt we'd be hearing as many complaints.
Solomongrundy wrote: I only have one Heldrake, and didn't have a chance to use it when it was cheese. I still want to use it, but hoping its not as bad as some have said. I am still looking forward to using it and seeing how it fairs now. I'm glad to see multiple points of views here.
Lol, Drake is not bad at all! This is all just a nerdrage from players feeling butthurt...helldrake really was one of the most OP things in wh40k and it really needed to be toned down. After this, there is hope that other OP units will also one day be more balanced. Hope its soon, since the game is anything but balanced in its current state.
Automatically Appended Next Post: TheRedWingArmada - Yeah, exploding Drake with LC.. 6+ to hit, 4+ to pen, 6+ to explode, but 5+ save for enemy...do the math, you cant relly on this...(its not even 1% for one lascannon) - so yes, chaos should stop crying because this is crying, nothing more. Its without reason or thinking.
Not to mention that Helldrake was better than "EVERY OTHER FLIER OUT THERE" (quoting you).
So your fliers all have BS 1 then, huh? Because you're smoking crack if your hitting on 6's and not on the ground, which is what I was talking about. And then Str 10(?) for Laz Cannon, so you Pen on 3's since Laz is AP2 and THEN the 5++, which is about a 1 in 3 to roll. So...you know....do the math...
And again, until the Heldrake either shoots four weapons in one go, drops bombs and missiles or can transport, it doesn't come close to reaching the apex levels of other fliers. You're biggest beef is that there is fire from the sky that roasts that common 3+ armor save and doesn't give you cover. No. Heldrake isn't better than Vendetta, or Cron-Air or take your pick. It was the Best Option in the Chaos Codex. Not the entire damn game and damn sure not while 3 Riptides are Skyfiring like they're shooting at the Jetsons. Sorry, but your argument does not hold up to reality.
Did all of the anti-Heldrake people forget "EXPLODE" is still a thing? Yeah, we get the same invuln save all our daemons do and IWND is great if the Heldrake survives a round of "OMG KILL EET!" from loyalists and Tau, but you can still shoot the damn thing out of the air with a well placed Lazcannon shot and since Loyalist fliers seem to have two TL Lazcannons at their disposal, plus another two batteries of wtf to shoot, they've got a good shot of bypassing all of the Heldrakes defenses before it can make its points back with the Baleflamer.
So this stupid argument that "Chaos should stop crying" can stop coming from non-Chaos players. EVERY OTHER FLIER OUT THERE, for utility purposes and army synchronicity, is better than the Heldrake PERIOD. The only reason you clowns are so afraid of the Iron Dragon in the first place is because it killed your precious infantry the way Tau kill infantry in turn 1.
The Heldrake is a solo-act, even when flying with other Heldrakes. It's a harasser and a support flier. It's not transporting troops with deadly accuracy and it's not putting 6+ hits onto whatever it wants all the time, either.
As I've said earlier, anyone want to argue the finer points of the Heldrake, I'd like to see some emperical evidence besides the collective sigh of relief when someone pulls a stick out of someone elses rear armor. As it has been mentioned again and again, Chaos had exactly ONE good unit to combat the overly good codex's and units we're up agianst which include Riptides, Buffmanders, Wraithknights, etc. Sorry ya'll were getting cold sweats over the dragon, but that's all we bloody got! DEAL WITH IT THE SAME WAY YOU ARE DEMANDING WE DEAL WITH THIS CHANGE AND MAYBE THE RESPECT WILL LAST LONGER.
Fact of the matter is, perhaps the loyalists+ should've been more creative with the greater armory they have instead of demanding that Chaos stay under its boot heels by nerfing every decent thing we get, and that includes FMC's as well. Tell me something...what big hit did the Space Marines take again? I heard something about Vendetta's. Do ya'll have hull mounted weapons now too? Did they take away your hover? Maybe your assault marines cost an arm and a leg now? Did they take away your ability to barrage with Thunderfire cannons because we have no barrage period. And no sky fire. No monster hunters. No scouts, no infiltraters, no snipers.
Oh, but at least we got our Heldrakes neck broke. Nub.
Just curious, do you randomly shout bits of what you're saying to people in real life, or is it just something you reserve for us poor souls on the Internet?
As you bring up matters of respect, you may find that posting your thoughts in calm, well thought out manner will earn you more, because, in all honesty your posting style right now comes across like an over caffeinated toddler, and it's undermining your credibility.
I know the rule of the internet is "OMG CAPS STOP YELLING AT ME! -hands over eyes and ears-" but I actually made it out of high school english, so while there are caps and they make you uncomfortable, I'd probably ask that you check for actual exclamation points. I'd argue there is a difference, like Caps lock means I want you to pay attention to something and an exclamation point might be the mark of "shouting" or hyperbole. Oh, but there is one of those toddler words (hyperbole) and I used caps before, so I'm sure you along with like mindeds will have blocked this out too, in favor of your own personal preferences and beliefs. But isn't that everyone, especially when the internet makes no effort to accurately convey emotion?
The heldrake was released without its weapon on a turret, and it was considered good.
Now it is in the same position as when it started, but apparently has become a terrible unit.
It was good before, and it is still good now, it just requires more thought and can be countered like most fliers can, with maneuvering.
Having a flyer which could hit any target in a 40 inch radius was a little op, especially when it ignores cover and wounds most targets on a 2+.
Everyone here will agree that C:SM needs buffing, however the heldrake was at the other end of the scale and needed bringing down as did the vendetta.
Twin-lascannon with skyfire has a 4.1% chance to explode a helldrake. 3/4 hits, 1/2 pen, 1/6 explode, 2/3 fail invul.
With 3 shots from each vendetta, it's an 11.9% chance of getting 1 or more explodes (with the extras being wasted)
Drakes are likely to die the same where they always did, hull points being stripped.
IMO, drakes should be used like all the other vehicles, in saturation. Run drakes with a landraider /w terminators, a vindicator or two, and another tank (maxed armor). Add in a Pair of daemon princes with wings as well, and just overwhelm your opponents ability to kill armor.
Big Blind Bill wrote: The heldrake was released without its weapon on a turret, and it was considered good.
Now it is in the same position as when it started, but apparently has become a terrible unit.
It was good before, and it is still good now, it just requires more thought and can be countered like most fliers can, with maneuvering.
Having a flyer which could hit any target in a 40 inch radius was a little op, especially when it ignores cover and wounds most targets on a 2+.
Everyone here will agree that C:SM needs buffing, however the heldrake was at the over end of the scale and needed bringing down as did the vendetta.
It is terrible in comparison to having a turret. I agree it was a little OP, but wouldn't a 180 or 90 degree arc have worked for that. That said, it is still a good unit.
@TheRedWingArmadaMade: lascannons are S9, not S10, so penning on 4+ was correct.
@TheRedWingArmadaMade: you asked what was taken of loyalist, here are some examples :
1) The main competitive SM list was a biker list which now does not have any cover save except when they forgo their shooting,
2) Another competitive list was devstar which is hurt with less reliable prescience and ignore cover as well as the change on the way you run multiple weapons shooting from a unit (like having a missile launcher does not extend the range of your gravguns for instance),
3) For AM, the vendetta was nerfed(price increase, cant carry veterans anymore), as well as the hydra (which was already crap) in terms of AA.
So yes the helldrake was hugely nerfed, yes it was OP before.
Was it nerfed too much, i think so as well (the nerf to VS is already quite hard but necessary)
The Vendetta, pre-AM, was hands down the best flyer around. With AM, it's still good (still the best imo), but they did that by upping the points cost and dropping transport capacity. This FAQ took what made the heldrake great and put it back to mediocre. If the rest of the codex were a bit more competitive, I doubt we'd be hearing as many complaints.
Pre-AM Vendetta was the best AT around, it was OP and needed to tone down - quest completed. Now I dont see vendettas around me at all. Players i know replaced it with Lemans and LC blobs (which will be replaced again, because there is now not that cheesy prescience anymore). Helldrake has always been the best flyer overall because of its ability to destroy light vehicles (mostly transports) and in the same turn grill the transported soldiers or just burn the marines on foot. All that with IWND and 5+ invul and 360 degree firearc AND torrent rule AND ignoring the shake/stunned AND his bonus rule (one use only, wounding and pene reroll)...no wonder we have seen armies on tournaments based on helldrakes...
And since you are saying it was "a little OP" I see you are clearly somehow biased...it was not little, not at all...
I know the rule of the internet is "OMG CAPS STOP YELLING AT ME! -hands over eyes and ears-" but I actually made it out of high school english, so while there are caps and they make you uncomfortable, I'd probably ask that you check for actual exclamation points. I'd argue there is a difference, like Caps lock means I want you to pay attention to something and an exclamation point might be the mark of "shouting" or hyperbole. Oh, but there is one of those toddler words (hyperbole) and I used caps before, so I'm sure you along with like mindeds will have blocked this out too, in favor of your own personal preferences and beliefs. But isn't that everyone, especially when the internet makes no effort to accurately convey emotion?
Dakka Posting Rules wrote:Please remember that posting and reading online is a visual format and as such the spelling, grammar and look of your posts is the only way others understand what you are saying. Therefore, in order to be polite, all users are expected to make an effort to use proper spelling, grammar and punctuation and should refrain from using internet shorthand or other distracting methods of writing, such as writing a post completely bolded, with capital letters, in a strange color, etc.
You're free to take what I said on board or not dude, but you're coming across as a ranty, frothing nerd rager. I'm sure that's not what you're trying to do, so might I suggest using italics for emphasis, rather than caps?
I'm just trying to offer some friendly guidance, because your posting seems to have already attracted a Mod warning in the other CSM thread you were participating in (along with a couple of other posters) and your language choice and general demeanour is perhaps coming across as more aggressive than perhaps you realise, and breaking rule 1 is the quickest way to a Dakka holiday I know of.
Then I'll end my biased opinion exactly where I started it: My biggest beef with the nerf on Heldrake isn't VS or anything like that. It's the 45* firing arc. At the very minimum, it should be 180. So it still can't roast troops that it cracked open from Transports, but it can still get a decent shot off. The 45* arc is too much, especially for the Hades Autocannon.
Edit: And to whoever about whatever rule 1 and other post? Not me that started the mod wagon, nor was it any of my posts that got modded, as far as I know. I have received no warnings. Etc. etc. etc. What you are referring to is someone who came into that thread and started trolling Toy Story. I imagine others got onto either me or him, I dunno, because mod stepped in and as far as me and the other assumed party involved, I blocked him on my own because a moderator had stepped in. Best not to tempt fate. As for me "sounding aggressive," I've apparently had "that problem" all my life and what I realized is it wasn't "my problem" as much as it was everyone elses. I'm comfortable with the way I communicate and can find examples in my life going both ways, but ultimately its not up to me what someone else reads out of what I post. Otherwise, I'd have to tailor a message 500 times plus to make sure I didn't make anyone feel "uncomfortable" or "offend anyone." Screw that noise.
Like when the cops show up at your house and ask "Is everyone ok, we heard yelling," and you have to explain that your kids were having a video game tournament, and then the most ridiculous double-standard arises "It's ok to have yelling, just not so much and as long as everyone is ok." So basically, they'll show up any time anyone feels "uncomfortable" about something. 9 billion people on the planet, and I've gotta worry about what someone thinks about caps lock, which by the way = CRUISE CONTROL FOR COOL!!!
And yes, I do use my words, as I was raised to do. In sentence structures and sometimes paragraph form. I'd think out of most of the internet crowd, I'm about as least internet as there is. Anyone else have a Twitter account that communicates in hashtags only? Because I don't.
Las cannons also aren't strength 10. Not sure where that idea came from. Or why vendettas and space marines were brought up in the same go, because marines don't have vendettas.
Big Blind Bill wrote: The heldrake was released without its weapon on a turret, and it was considered good.
Now it is in the same position as when it started, but apparently has become a terrible unit.
It was good before, and it is still good now, it just requires more thought and can be countered like most fliers can, with maneuvering.
Having a flyer which could hit any target in a 40 inch radius was a little op, especially when it ignores cover and wounds most targets on a 2+.
Everyone here will agree that C:SM needs buffing, however the heldrake was at the over end of the scale and needed bringing down as did the vendetta.
It was solid before the turret faq, not as great as some seem to remember. It was also faq'ed pretty early on; I don't recall the exact date but I have the FAQ from April '13 and it wasn't new (magenta) in that one. The game has changed since then. Most codices were released after the turret faq, many of which increased their armies power dramatically. So the broken record of 'it was fine before' isn't really applicable. So it was somewhat powerful (not OTT by any means) when it wasn't a turret at first, but since then CD, SM, Eldar, Tau, and AM have all seen codex releases that increased their ability to kill infantry. Additionally things like inquisition and knights have further upped the power level of the game. The turret mounted heldrake fits right in with the current game even if it was overpowered when it was first faq'd, the hull mounted one is simply too 'meh.'
Also, even if you assume it was too powerful and nerf it, it hurts the codex even for friendly level games. The codex has some undeniably stinky units. Having one or two above average power units in the codex allows one to take the weaker units as well without being super handicapped. A mix of powerful and weaker units is good for variety. If you only have weaker units and fairly balanced units in your codex, you simply won't get to use the weaker ones very much as they will make even friendly games too lopsided.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Then I'll end my biased opinion exactly where I started it: My biggest beef with the nerf on Heldrake isn't VS or anything like that. It's the 45* firing arc. At the very minimum, it should be 180. So it still can't roast troops that it cracked open from Transports, but it can still get a decent shot off. The 45* arc is too much, especially for the Hades Autocannon.
And I'll respond with what I started with.
The Heldrake is still a good unit. It has lost "easy mode" and those that have been using it with a turret will probably have to rethink how they employ it.
It now needs support from other units, planning in advance and perhaps using in concert with other Heldrakes rather than in isolation.
It is a shame that the CSM book isn't blessed with a huge variety of strong units, but that doesn't justify making one unit much stronger than it should be, if you want to get upset, be upset at all the units that aren't competitively viable, rather than upset that one unit is now probably as strong as it should be.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Then I'll end my biased opinion exactly where I started it: My biggest beef with the nerf on Heldrake isn't VS or anything like that. It's the 45* firing arc. At the very minimum, it should be 180. So it still can't roast troops that it cracked open from Transports, but it can still get a decent shot off. The 45* arc is too much, especially for the Hades Autocannon.
This is not the opinion you have been posting however. The opinion which you have been putting forward in this thread is that C:SM is underpowered, and you are annoyed that GW took away one of your competitive toys whilst the imperials have so many.
I would say you are justified in being annoyed by the poor current state of C:SM, and certainly the nerf to the heldrake brings them down even more so.
However, if we viewed the heldrake from outside of C:SM alone, and from an overall view of 6th edition, it was clear to see that the heldrake was too powerful. Nothing else in the game could wreck half of the armies in the game so easily for such a low price.
C:SM for the entirety of 6th could have for all almost all intents and purposes have been renamed "Codex Heldrakes and friends". Outside of fluffy lists you would always see 1 or 2 heldrakes. This in itself was an injustice to C:SM as it took away from the diversity that makes many CSM armies so unique.
Nerfing the heldrake is a good thing for game balance. Whilst it does hurt CSM, it does make the game better overall. C:SM has a lot of problems, but using them to justify the existence of an overpowered unit is not much better. The whole codex needs an overhaul, not only one single game breaking unit. Try to find some more viable things in 7th edition until this happens. CSM still has some decent choices Maulerfiends are in a nice place right now, and rhinos are set to make a comeback.
obsidiankatana wrote: ...Or why vendettas and space marines were brought up in the same go, because marines don't have vendettas.
Well space marines and IG are BB sooooo...
So not the same army. People have suggested CSM ally with Daemons to be better, or traitor Guard, and were shot down for suggesting that allying fixes a broken codex. So suggesting that SM have an overpowered flyer because they can ally and take IG's is silly.
obsidiankatana wrote: ...Or why vendettas and space marines were brought up in the same go, because marines don't have vendettas.
Well space marines and IG are BB sooooo...
So not the same army. People have suggested CSM ally with Daemons to be better, or traitor Guard, and were shot down for suggesting that allying fixes a broken codex. So suggesting that SM have an overpowered flyer because they can ally and take IG's is silly.
Well, BB is a far cry from Apocalyptic, especially now that BB are treated basically as if they were from the same codex. Not that CSM would know that since our only BB more like BB -1. Additionally, SM isn't a broken codex, it can use a sprinkling of IG for variety, support, and fluff. There's a difference between using allies, and using allies to prop up a failing codex. I don't recall if you were part of the "just use allies crowd" or not, but you'd think all the SM people saying that would be amicable to their own idea, or maybe what is good for the goose isn't good enough for the gander?
Well, BB is a far cry from Apocalyptic, especially now that BB are treated basically as if they were from the same codex. Not that CSM would know that since our only BB more like BB -1. Additionally, SM isn't a broken codex, it can use a sprinkling of IG for variety, support, and fluff. There's a difference between using allies, and using allies to prop up a failing codex. I don't recall if you were part of the "just use allies crowd" or not, but you'd think all the SM people saying that would be amicable to their own idea, or maybe what is good for the goose isn't good enough for the gander?
This seems to be a misconception with a lot of what I say. I don't think Chaos is the best in town. It's not that good a book, I get it. I've played it. I know. But the sky didn't spontaneously fall in 7th, and it's not leagues behind the loyalist book. Propping up a failing book with allies isn't a solution, but some people are trying to justify C: SM being strong because of units outsde C: SM. Which is as wrong as propping a failing book with allies.
This seems to be a misconception with a lot of what I say. I don't think Chaos is the best in town. It's not that good a book, I get it. I've played it. I know. But the sky didn't spontaneously fall in 7th, and it's not leagues behind the loyalist book. Propping up a failing book with allies isn't a solution, but some people are trying to justify C: SM being strong because of units outsing C: SM. Which is as wrong as propping a failing book with allies.
Totally agree with you here, 7th didn't change all that much for CSM as whole. Its just that a new edition that nerfs one of the better units in an already mediocre book while not helping the underpowered units is understandably ill-received. That combined with a few other things (traitor guard being CtA is my strongest dislike of 7e) and you have reminded many chaos players that they've gotten yet another codex that isn't what they really wanted: A chaotic/traitor marine army with enough variety to represent different legions/warbands without being hilariously hamstrung by attempting to do so.
Ok, I'm done with this and all threads like this now. Especially with virtually three or four threads having the same discussions with the same people coming to the same damn conclusions. Actually, this thread reminded me why it took me so long to come back to Dakka for anything besides the pictures.
It's boiled down to players who play CSM's not being happy and then SM players telling them to shut up because we could just bite off of x, y, and z (including our mortal enemies C:SM). The insults could not get much worse at this point.
"One good unit shouldn't prop up a bad dex!" "Allie to make your bad dex better!" "Yeah I know IG is Come the Apocalypse and the Space Marines can ally with daemons, but come on! CSM + Daemons!"
"Oh you just wanna be more like C:SM, you WAAC/Try-Hard."
I think I'll just be happy with the fact I'll never see any of you at any of my games or clubs and write my own codex now. This is beyond nuts now. And for anyone who wants to tell me what my point is, I have a lot of points and the collection of them together is far more valid than, "We know it sucks for you, but it's great for the rest of us!"
Ah, people don't agree with you across multiple threads, so it can't be you, must be them.
*slowclap*
FWIW, I'm a Daemons player, just expanding into a small CSM allied force, with BA as my other army, so yes, technically SM, but a book that has away more problems currently than CSM.
I still think you've overreacted.
Well, actually, scratch that, not past tense, you're still overreacting.
Automatically Appended Next Post: With regard to the Heldrake, I posted this over in the general hull mounted thread in discussion, I'd be interested if anyone can argue a reason why this can't be done, otherwise, it makes hitting stuff much easier.
"One good unit shouldn't prop up a bad dex!" "Allie to make your bad dex better!" "Yeah I know IG is Come the Apocalypse and the Space Marines can ally with daemons, but come on! CSM + Daemons!"
"Oh you just wanna be more like C:SM, you WAAC/Try-Hard."
I don't think anybody said any of these things in the context you're taking them in.
With regard to the Heldrake, I posted this over in the general hull mounted thread in discussion, I'd be interested if anyone can argue a reason why this can't be done, otherwise, it makes hitting stuff much easier.
The model, if assembled officially, points it's gun roughly straight forwards and level. (Along the x axis)
People are assuming that the arc = x +/- 22.5 degrees.
Nothing says that the fire arc cannot be taken as x -45 degrees, meaning it cannot fire above itself at all, but can target 45 degrees down.
Spoiler:
As you can see, 45 degrees vertically, no clarification that it has to be split evenly around the x axis.
I think you have to assume that when it says 45 degrees it means centered about the gun barrel axis. If you don't assume this then one center of the arc is no better than any other. If you want to pick a central axis 22.5 degrees below the gun barrel why not just choose an axis behind the heldrake so you can use it like before? The axis along the gun barrel is the only one that makes sense ruleswise. Honestly I wish they'd have left it turret and nerfed it some other way if they must. A fire breathing dragon that can't flame stuff it passes over is absurd. Additionally the hadesdrake didn't deserve the collateral damage.
With regard to the Heldrake, I posted this over in the general hull mounted thread in discussion, I'd be interested if anyone can argue a reason why this can't be done, otherwise, it makes hitting stuff much easier.
The model, if assembled officially, points it's gun roughly straight forwards and level. (Along the x axis)
People are assuming that the arc = x +/- 22.5 degrees.
Nothing says that the fire arc cannot be taken as x -45 degrees, meaning it cannot fire above itself at all, but can target 45 degrees down.
Spoiler:
As you can see, 45 degrees vertically, no clarification that it has to be split evenly around the x axis.
I think you have to assume that when it says 45 degrees it means centered about the gun barrel axis. If you don't assume this then one center of the arc is no better than any other. If you want to pick a central axis 22.5 degrees below the gun barrel why not just choose an axis behind the heldrake so you can use it like before? The axis along the gun barrel is the only one that makes sense ruleswise. Honestly I wish they'd have left it turret and nerfed it some other way if they must. A fire breathing dragon that can't flame stuff it passes over is absurd. Additionally the hadesdrake didn't deserve the collateral damage.
The x axis is the horizontal, a flat level line running through the model nose to tail, and extending infinitely in both directions. You are told, explicitly, to measure range and LOS from the gun barrel, you must do this, so no, you can't just pick any point and use it like before.
You use the word "assume" several times in your response, which is telling, because you can assume things, but not necessarily be correct. Taking a 45 degree fire arc starting with level and moving down not only satisfies RAW, as far as I can see, but makes sense fluff wise, and makes the Heldrake function more like people think it should.
There is no stipulation that any part of the arc has to be above the gun, there is no stipulation that the arc has to be centred on the barrel, merely 45 degrees vertical and horizontal, which my idea complies with.
The Vendetta, pre-AM, was hands down the best flyer around. With AM, it's still good (still the best imo), but they did that by upping the points cost and dropping transport capacity. This FAQ took what made the heldrake great and put it back to mediocre. If the rest of the codex were a bit more competitive, I doubt we'd be hearing as many complaints.
Pre-AM Vendetta was the best AT around, it was OP and needed to tone down - quest completed. Now I dont see vendettas around me at all. Players i know replaced it with Lemans and LC blobs (which will be replaced again, because there is now not that cheesy prescience anymore). Helldrake has always been the best flyer overall because of its ability to destroy light vehicles (mostly transports) and in the same turn grill the transported soldiers or just burn the marines on foot. All that with IWND and 5+ invul and 360 degree firearc AND torrent rule AND ignoring the shake/stunned AND his bonus rule (one use only, wounding and pene reroll)...no wonder we have seen armies on tournaments based on helldrakes...
And since you are saying it was "a little OP" I see you are clearly somehow biased...it was not little, not at all...
I'm biased both ways. I understand how OP it is, but there's a reason that it is Codex: Hellturkey.
I'm both glad and upset it got nerfed. It did need it, but it is a blow to a struggling codex. Personally, I wish they'd gone with a 90 degree arc.
As for seeing tournament armies based on Helldrakes, what else are CSM supposed to base a competitive army on?
The Vendetta, pre-AM, was hands down the best flyer around. With AM, it's still good (still the best imo), but they did that by upping the points cost and dropping transport capacity. This FAQ took what made the heldrake great and put it back to mediocre. If the rest of the codex were a bit more competitive, I doubt we'd be hearing as many complaints.
Pre-AM Vendetta was the best AT around, it was OP and needed to tone down - quest completed. Now I dont see vendettas around me at all. Players i know replaced it with Lemans and LC blobs (which will be replaced again, because there is now not that cheesy prescience anymore). Helldrake has always been the best flyer overall because of its ability to destroy light vehicles (mostly transports) and in the same turn grill the transported soldiers or just burn the marines on foot. All that with IWND and 5+ invul and 360 degree firearc AND torrent rule AND ignoring the shake/stunned AND his bonus rule (one use only, wounding and pene reroll)...no wonder we have seen armies on tournaments based on helldrakes...
And since you are saying it was "a little OP" I see you are clearly somehow biased...it was not little, not at all...
I'm biased both ways. I understand how OP it is, but there's a reason that it is Codex: Hellturkey.
I'm both glad and upset it got nerfed. It did need it, but it is a blow to a struggling codex. Personally, I wish they'd gone with a 90 degree arc.
As for seeing tournament armies based on Helldrakes, what else are CSM supposed to base a competitive army on?
Khorne Berzerkers. NO WAIT! Mono-nurgle! Forgefiends? I give up. I'm out of options.
Also, to those who are saying "BRING MORE TURKEYS!" well, one, that's the whole reason we're having this problem now. Because CSM players DID bring enough turkeys to make the 3+ armor cry. So we are here now. The other problem with "BRING MORE TURKEYS" is that if we do that, then we can't bring anything else in our fast slots.
And I think this might be the bottom line of ridiculous that has come up now: One the one hand, Heldrakes were too good, so they got nerfed to make them more reasonable. But by nerfing them, now we have to take more.....er?
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Ok, I'm done with this and all threads like this now. Especially with virtually three or four threads having the same discussions with the same people coming to the same damn conclusions. Actually, this thread reminded me why it took me so long to come back to Dakka for anything besides the pictures.
Anyone that thinks the Heldrake is still good obviously doesn't play good players. IT will come in flame 1 unit if your opponent is a good player it will maybe kill 4 models. Then it will either have to hover or fly off the table to actually do anything.
You will never get the points invested in it back unless your opponent is terrible. If you run 2 or 3 you are sinking a ton of points into something that might come in on turn 2.
IF the actual CSM codex was good there would be other options to take. Sadly there isn't
I actually enjoy coming to dakka to listen to people that don't actually play 40k talk about how a unit is or isnt good anymore. When I say don't play I mean you don't actually play good players who know how to play.
I'm biased both ways. I understand how OP it is, but there's a reason that it is Codex: Hellturkey.
I'm both glad and upset it got nerfed. It did need it, but it is a blow to a struggling codex. Personally, I wish they'd gone with a 90 degree arc.
As for seeing tournament armies based on Helldrakes, what else are CSM supposed to base a competitive army on?
Partially I understand you. However, if some codex is strugling, the solution is not to make one of its units super strong. You are not the only one with non-competitive codex. From time to time I check the winners or top ten players of notable tournaments. For some time now, there are always Eldar-Tau-Daemons(with CHSM allies) in the first ranks, followed by Space marines. Before them it was Grey knights all around. Now I presume it will be Daemons - Eldar - Grey knights - Tau, but its a guess and only time will tell. As long as I play warhammer it has always been like this.
I dont believe that an army, winning army, should be based on one unit. Its the same with vendettas - that was the only great unit in struggling codex. And I still believe it had to be toned down!
Tyrius wrote: Anyone that thinks the Heldrake is still good obviously doesn't play good players. IT will come in flame 1 unit if your opponent is a good player it will maybe kill 4 models. Then it will either have to hover or fly off the table to actually do anything.
You will never get the points invested in it back unless your opponent is terrible. If you run 2 or 3 you are sinking a ton of points into something that might come in on turn 2.
IF the actual CSM codex was good there would be other options to take. Sadly there isn't
I actually enjoy coming to dakka to listen to people that don't actually play 40k talk about how a unit is or isnt good anymore. When I say don't play I mean you don't actually play good players who know how to play.
You're undervaluing forcing your opponent to act, if you make your oppo move models out of the way of a Heldrake, and he either didn't want to move, or move in that direction, then you have gained something. This could be moving out of cover, moving his unit so they are out of range of his weapons or Into range of yours, forcing guys armed with heavy weapons to fire snap shots etc etc..
Not every contribution a unit makes to the game can be measured in casualties inflicted.
For instance, my Bloodthirster in my Khorne list is often gunned down mercilessly within two turns, but more often, when that happens, the two Princes who got off scott free for two turns then have the opportunity to pick up the shortfall, and on occasion, luck or bad decision making means all three get to play.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Sorry Az. What I meant to say was, I'm done with you. And now you are blocked. And my day was made that much brighter.
Lol, fair enough.
Can't say I'll be able to resist knowing you won't see my posts to embark on shenanigans though, but then, keep posting in the manner you have been and you won't be around for much longer.
I'm biased both ways. I understand how OP it is, but there's a reason that it is Codex: Hellturkey.
I'm both glad and upset it got nerfed. It did need it, but it is a blow to a struggling codex. Personally, I wish they'd gone with a 90 degree arc.
As for seeing tournament armies based on Helldrakes, what else are CSM supposed to base a competitive army on?
Partially I understand you. However, if some codex is strugling, the solution is not to make one of its units super strong. You are not the only one with non-competitive codex. From time to time I check the winners or top ten players of notable tournaments. For some time now, there are always Eldar-Tau-Daemons(with CHSM allies) in the first ranks, followed by Space marines. Before them it was Grey knights all around. Now I presume it will be Daemons - Eldar - Grey knights - Tau, but its a guess and only time will tell. As long as I play warhammer it has always been like this.
I dont believe that an army, winning army, should be based on one unit. Its the same with vendettas - that was the only great unit in struggling codex. And I still believe it had to be toned down!
So now the IG have a struggling codex too? Isn't this the army with uber armor and telephone polls that leave greasy smears in the terrain everywhere they go? Who could also snap fire 40+ las shots at a daemon prince and force 20 grounding tests? I'm sure my numbers are off since I don't have that codex and such, but I didn't thing the IG were "struggling." Especially now with the new name and Astra Tempestus. Upon first glance, it looked to me like the IG transports just got stronger than the Space Marine rhinos, and that is a blasphemy all on its own.
So now the IG have a struggling codex too? Isn't this the army with uber armor and telephone polls that leave greasy smears in the terrain everywhere they go? Who could also snap fire 40+ las shots at a daemon prince and force 20 grounding tests? I'm sure my numbers are off since I don't have that codex and such, but I didn't thing the IG were "struggling." Especially now with the new name and Astra Tempestus. Upon first glance, it looked to me like the IG transports just got stronger than the Space Marine rhinos, and that is a blasphemy all on its own.
I believe he meant of the old IG book.
Also grounding tests don't work like that anymore. And Guard Transports have been stronger than Rhinos since 5th.
You will never get the points invested in it back unless your opponent is terrible.
IF the actual CSM codex was good there would be other options to take. Sadly there isn't
Are you saying that CHSM Sorcerer is not a good option? And what about obliterators? Havocks with ACs (about 115 points for 8 BS 4 S7 shots? - hell yeah, I would take it!)? And so on...None of those units is OP. None can be compared to the old helldrake - which is a good thing, because that Turkey had been clearly broken. But those are hardly bad units. You know what is bad? Warp talons. Or basic CHS Marines. But in every codex there are - sadly - good options and bad options. Some codex have OP options (Eldar probably the most of them now).
Ashiraya wrote: Why do you guys have to be so hostile against each other?
Put down your weapons and hug in the malefic embrace of Chaos.
No hostility here, more amusement/bemusement that someone can get that worked up over the subject.
Just for the record though, and with no hostility, venom or aggression, coming in between two people who really ARE angry with each other, and saying "why don't you guys just chill out?" may result in serious physical injury to your person if not protected by the warm fluffy blanket of virtual ness.
Ashiraya wrote: Why do you guys have to be so hostile against each other?
Put down your weapons and hug in the malefic embrace of Chaos.
No hostility here, more amusement/bemusement that someone can get that worked up over the subject.
Just for the record though, and with no hostility, venom or aggression, coming in between two people who really ARE angry with each other, and saying "why don't you guys just chill out?" may result in serious physical injury to your person if not protected by the warm fluffy blanket of virtual ness.
Or, in my case, a fair amount of experience in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.
Still, no matter your emotion, please hold to rule #1.
So now the IG have a struggling codex too? Isn't this the army with uber armor and telephone polls that leave greasy smears in the terrain everywhere they go? Who could also snap fire 40+ las shots at a daemon prince and force 20 grounding tests? I'm sure my numbers are off since I don't have that codex and such, but I didn't thing the IG were "struggling." Especially now with the new name and Astra Tempestus. Upon first glance, it looked to me like the IG transports just got stronger than the Space Marine rhinos, and that is a blasphemy all on its own.
I believe he meant of the old IG book.
Also grounding tests don't work like that anymore. And Guard Transports have been stronger than Rhinos since 5th.
Wait, why are we talking about old IG dex? And I said "could" as in, 6th ed guard did not seem to want for anything seeing as how I'm sure they were able to fire mortars out of their transports some how. And on that note, how is that explainable? That the IG now have better vehicles than the Space Marines who are supposed to have the best of everything? Leman Russ better than Pred. Fine. I'll believe it. Chimera better than Rhino? What? Or that new humvee/bus they got for the AM? Better than Rhino, why? o__O Are we getting rid of the Rhino soon then? Because this doesn't make any sense to me.
Ashiraya wrote: Why do you guys have to be so hostile against each other?
Put down your weapons and hug in the malefic embrace of Chaos.
No hostility here, more amusement/bemusement that someone can get that worked up over the subject.
Just for the record though, and with no hostility, venom or aggression, coming in between two people who really ARE angry with each other, and saying "why don't you guys just chill out?" may result in serious physical injury to your person if not protected by the warm fluffy blanket of virtual ness.
Or, in my case, a fair amount of experience in Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu.
Still, no matter your emotion, please hold to rule #1.
(I feel like a backseat mod. Sorry. :C)
I'm not being impolite am I?
If so, please feel free to yellow triangle my relevant posts, this stuff isn't important enough for people to actually get upset about.
Plus, have a cookie for pulling the classic ITG routine. I'm 2m and 300lbs, all the martial arts in the world won't save you if I pick you up and drop you on your head.
So now the IG have a struggling codex too? Isn't this the army with uber armor and telephone polls that leave greasy smears in the terrain everywhere they go? Who could also snap fire 40+ las shots at a daemon prince and force 20 grounding tests? I'm sure my numbers are off since I don't have that codex and such, but I didn't thing the IG were "struggling." Especially now with the new name and Astra Tempestus. Upon first glance, it looked to me like the IG transports just got stronger than the Space Marine rhinos, and that is a blasphemy all on its own.
Mr. Obsidian above got it right. I dont know about Astra Militarum. That codex is out in the open only for a while so it is just too soon to make conclusions about its strenght in tournaments. I will give it about half a year, you can ask me again after that. But the old codex IG? Yup, for a long time (since 6th edition) this codex had been used as Codex:Imperial Allies because of vendettas used by space marines. As a primary detachment, it was strugling (Not counting FW units, only the codex).
Wait, why are we talking about old IG dex? And I said "could" as in, 6th ed guard did not seem to want for anything seeing as how I'm sure they were able to fire mortars out of their transports some how. And on that note, how is that explainable? That the IG now have better vehicles than the Space Marines who are supposed to have the best of everything? Leman Russ better than Pred. Fine. I'll believe it. Chimera better than Rhino? What? Or that new humvee/bus they got for the AM? Better than Rhino, why? o__O Are we getting rid of the Rhino soon then? Because this doesn't make any sense to me.
I think to draw the comparison of: IG had an iffy codex with really good fliers -> flyer got nerfed. Parallel to Chaos now.
The Taurox probably isn't better than the Rhino (not AV wise, has better guns, but also costs more). But the Chimera as been superior for quite some time. I suppose the intended argument here is that the Rhino's cargo is theoretically better, but it usually isn't.
TheRedWingArmada wrote: Wait, why are we talking about old IG dex? And I said "could" as in, 6th ed guard did not seem to want for anything seeing as how I'm sure they were able to fire mortars out of their transports some how. And on that note, how is that explainable? That the IG now have better vehicles than the Space Marines who are supposed to have the best of everything? Leman Russ better than Pred. Fine. I'll believe it. Chimera better than Rhino? What? Or that new humvee/bus they got for the AM? Better than Rhino, why? o__O Are we getting rid of the Rhino soon then? Because this doesn't make any sense to me.
Chimeras, while 'better' than a rhino, are a different beast. Rhinos exist to move marines from point A to point B so that marines can do the fighting. Chimeras are there to help the Guard as an IFV, rather than as an APC. They end up being a 'better' unit, but they fill a different role. The Rhino is still king of the metal boxes, and that isn't something I expect will change anytime soon.
@obsidiankatana IG had a decent codex (see below) with an OP flier, flier got nerfed. New book is new. Taurox (imo) is worse than a Rhino point for point.
@Lothar it waasn't 'struggling' because it was a bad primary (that said, it wasn't good either), it was 'struggling' because it was the best imperial ally.
IG were never a bad codex. They were the #1 ally for every army in 6th edition and probably the only army who could make a really solid army with no allies.
For one, it's impossible to draw LoS from the "Gun Barrel" since the drakes nose is always pointed down and over the gun (Even if you wanted to state that RAI just measure from the tip of the nose, that doesn't mean the model itself is any less broken with the new rules).
That is the lamest excuse to not bring a vehicle ever. Stating a model cannot draw line of sight because of the way its constructed is the dumbest claim ever. People tried that with numerous models that "dont have eyes" and it got shot down every time. Its not a hull mounted gun, so it can pivot even if its modeled fixed.
Helldrakes are still strong, theyre just not auto-win broken for the cost like they were. My friend used them before the turret-FAQ to great success, all that faq did is make him not even have to think about how to use it. Welcome to every other flier's life of having to "aim" the vehicle.
The necron fluff states that its tesla destructors are turret mounted, yet everyone plays them hull mounted. Generally the only way to determine whether a gun is turret mounted or hull mounted is to either look at the model or for it to balatantly state so in its rules or FAQ. I wouldn't force an opponent to draw TLOS with it and let him ignore any intervening pieces of the model. But I don't see why someone should be able to play with their weapons as turret mounted without a clear reason for why it is.
Thokt wrote: Every player I've played seemed pretty well aware of hull mounted rules..
45 degree firing arc is not "good" or "best flier" that people keep saying that it is. Its severely gimped as a hull mounted weapon.
Let's look at it this way. A flier with Vector Dancer is never going to get hit by a Heldrake unless it happens the turn the Heldrake comes out. On that note, Vector Dancer might help the 45* arc a lot better, but 45* is still tripe. 90 or 180. I vote 180 being the only reasonable way to play it, since you can still hose viable targets without shooting behind you. 90* is more like the compromise between 180 and 45 and is still pretty crap.
With regard to the Heldrake, I posted this over in the general hull mounted thread in discussion, I'd be interested if anyone can argue a reason why this can't be done, otherwise, it makes hitting stuff much easier.
The model, if assembled officially, points it's gun roughly straight forwards and level. (Along the x axis)
People are assuming that the arc = x +/- 22.5 degrees.
Nothing says that the fire arc cannot be taken as x -45 degrees, meaning it cannot fire above itself at all, but can target 45 degrees down.
Spoiler:
As you can see, 45 degrees vertically, no clarification that it has to be split evenly around the x axis.
I think you have to assume that when it says 45 degrees it means centered about the gun barrel axis. If you don't assume this then one center of the arc is no better than any other. If you want to pick a central axis 22.5 degrees below the gun barrel why not just choose an axis behind the heldrake so you can use it like before? The axis along the gun barrel is the only one that makes sense ruleswise. Honestly I wish they'd have left it turret and nerfed it some other way if they must. A fire breathing dragon that can't flame stuff it passes over is absurd. Additionally the hadesdrake didn't deserve the collateral damage.
The x axis is the horizontal, a flat level line running through the model nose to tail, and extending infinitely in both directions. You are told, explicitly, to measure range and LOS from the gun barrel, you must do this, so no, you can't just pick any point and use it like before.
The "x axis" as you define it is irrelevant. The gun is not, nor has to be, horizontal. If you actually read the rules that you yourself posted you will see it says to measure LoSalong the gun barrel, not from the gun barrel as you say. Along the barrel indicates that the relevant axis is that of the gun barrel not horizontal anything. You are assuming horizontal is what matters, it is not, only the axis along which the gun points.
You use the word "assume" several times in your response, which is telling, because you can assume things, but not necessarily be correct. Taking a 45 degree fire arc starting with level and moving down not only satisfies RAW, as far as I can see, but makes sense fluff wise, and makes the Heldrake function more like people think it should.
I use the word "assume" because I know what it means and its the right word to use, thus how you use the word "telling" is ironic because your backhanded comment is more telling about you than me. The rule book does not state what orientation the firing arc has so therefore any opinion on where it is centered is an assumption.
There is no stipulation that any part of the arc has to be above the gun, there is no stipulation that the arc has to be centred on the barrel, merely 45 degrees vertical and horizontal, which my idea complies with.
Which I never refuted you on. If you comprehend what I wrote, it was that if you follow just the words as they are written it does not say 'swivel 45 degrees starting from its modeled mount' it simply says you can swivel a total of 45 degrees with no reference point on where you must start or end. So RAW, you can literally pick any direction you want to face your 45 degree arc. Furthermore, RAW it doesn't even clarify it must be the same arc every time you shoot. This is why RAW arguments are silly. If you are allowed to choose where your arc begins, so is everyone else, and the since rulebook doesn't specify where the arc starts, one can choose it to be behind if they want. My point wasn't that you're wrong for RAW, it was that such an interpretation of the RAW opens the door to even more obscene abuse than your already ridiculous suggestion. The only reasonable way to play it is centered along the barrel, as everyone does. Any other attempt is rules lawyering to the extreme.
Its also worth noting that its the gun that is said to swivel, not just the line of sight. As you must measure LOSalong the barrel you must actually pretend to swivel the barrel and then draw line of sight. If you do not swivel the barrel first (physically or imaginatively) there is no way to draw LOSalong the barrel.
Firstly, you seem to be defending yourself, when in actual fact I wasn't in any way attacking you, but the rules system that forces you into making "assumptions," might be best to ask me to clarify rather than embarking on a massive, slightly ranty, post in future.
Secondly, measuring along the barrel in the example I was citing (where the gun on the Heldrake in official pics, is, more or less, parallel to the ground) is a distinction without a difference.
Finally, you appear to be agreeing with me, so why all the defensiveness? A
EDIT
Reread some of the end of the post, so you don't actually agree, you just have no reason to tell me I'm wrong? Fair enough. Personally, I wouldn't expect to be able to play it this way, but I think it makes a lot of sense for ALL fliers, as then Drake isn't the only model that has an issue with this (Stomraven missiles for instance, the Ork flier I think as well, just as a couple of examples) and you really can't base rules arguments on assumptions, reasonable behaviour or anything else that is subjective and can vary from individual to individual, because you're always vulnerable to someone thinking the exact opposite and also thinking the assumptions they've made are reasonable.
Ha ha ha so I'm not alone in finally being willing to field the drake now that it got nerfed! Anyways, overall, the baledrake was far too god previously. Currently, it still feels like it is worthwhile, possibly being the best CSM unit (even if that isn't saying all that much). As per the Autodrake, I'll admit I just don't see much a point in taking it really now.
Reread some of the end of the post, so you don't actually agree, you just have no reason to tell me I'm wrong? Fair enough. Personally, I wouldn't expect to be able to play it this way, but I think it makes a lot of sense for ALL fliers, as then Drake isn't the only model that has an issue with this (Stomraven missiles for instance, the Ork flier I think as well, just as a couple of examples) and you really can't base rules arguments on assumptions, reasonable behaviour or anything else that is subjective and can vary from individual to individual, because you're always vulnerable to someone thinking the exact opposite and also thinking the assumptions they've made are reasonable.
But we can and do base rules off reasonable behavior and assumptions, we are forced to everyday. We assume that a model doesn't need eyes to draw line of sight because its reasonable. There doesn't really need to be any clarification we understand based on context. If every little detail was spelled out in unambiguous clarity the rules would be 10x the size they are read like a legal document. Heck, even legal matters often appeal to things like 'reasonable doubt' because spelling out every possible circumstance isn't worth it. There are many many instances in rules all over the place that can be deconstructed and in the most simple RAW interpretation do not make sense or work in the way they are intended. If two reasonable people disagree each starting from reasonable view they should not have a problem coming to some conclusion in a very brief amount of time.
Its actually important to the game that we do this, and more on topic, important to the heldrake. The verticle swivel does not actually allow you to place the template within 12" of the base. However most people play it the way they interpret which is to allow 45 degrees on the table with little regard to it being too close to the base to be within the actual firing arc.
I'd just like to point out that most of the Chaos players moaning that their face roll flyer is useless, need to look at the damn thing and learn tactics and deployment.
Two of those things still wreck face as I found out watching games last night.
We have a Nurgle Player with two BaleDrakes and he won all three of his games last night and all three the week before.
I suggest reading the codex, read it again, then try planning your initial attack with them so they can get the most coverage in one blast on a single unit per Drake.
It isn't rocket science and the Drake doesn't suck.
You just need to tweak your little list, take other units to plug whatever hole you perceive you have in your list and let the death commence.
Gonna have to put cones on my Heldrake now so the enemy feels less threatened by them, as I definitely feel less threatening with them as they are. Perhaps the cones will shame players enough to adjusting their strategy AGAINST the Heldrake, rather than telling Chaos players to adjust their strategy because they "win too hard."
The common theme I'm finding people have problems with the Heldrake? Still seems to be numbers. Those of us that ran 1 were fine. Those of us that ran 2 or more? Not so fine and forced this nerf because the opposition cried foul. And still there is no fix on Trip-Tides. ;>>
Puscifer wrote: I'd just like to point out that most of the Chaos players moaning that their face roll flyer is useless, need to look at the damn thing and learn tactics and deployment.
Two of those things still wreck face as I found out watching games last night.
We have a Nurgle Player with two BaleDrakes and he won all three of his games last night and all three the week before.
I suggest reading the codex, read it again, then try planning your initial attack with them so they can get the most coverage in one blast on a single unit per Drake.
It isn't rocket science and the Drake doesn't suck.
You just need to tweak your little list, take other units to plug whatever hole you perceive you have in your list and let the death commence.
Any opponent who cares about his infantry is going to spread out so you can only get 4 under the template. It doesn't matter where your initial attack lands if your opponent knows what you're going to do and can very simply shut it down by positioning his own models. The baledrake has only one trick so its not hard to see coming. The problem isn't people not knowing how to use it, its that anyone who knows how its used can easily mitigate its damage to ignorable levels. The ol' "so and so won X games with Y unit so Y unit must be good" has never counted for much.
Puscifer wrote: I'd just like to point out that most of the Chaos players moaning that their face roll flyer is useless, need to look at the damn thing and learn tactics and deployment.
Two of those things still wreck face as I found out watching games last night.
We have a Nurgle Player with two BaleDrakes and he won all three of his games last night and all three the week before.
I suggest reading the codex, read it again, then try planning your initial attack with them so they can get the most coverage in one blast on a single unit per Drake.
It isn't rocket science and the Drake doesn't suck.
You just need to tweak your little list, take other units to plug whatever hole you perceive you have in your list and let the death commence.
Any opponent who cares about his infantry is going to spread out so you can only get 4 under the template. It doesn't matter where your initial attack lands if your opponent knows what you're going to do and can very simply shut it down by positioning his own models. The baledrake has only one trick so its not hard to see coming. The problem isn't people not knowing how to use it, its that anyone who knows how its used can easily mitigate its damage to ignorable levels. The ol' "so and so won X games with Y unit so Y unit must be good" has never counted for much.
Have an Exalt. This has been my counter position to everyone thinking the Heldrake nerf was a good and needed thing (to the extent it is now). You tell us to change strategy? Well pretty much every army out there already had a counter strategy against the Baledrake. So I'd say it was a cheap shot at Chaos to take our better unit and break its neck.
I'm also still of the compromise that if the real gripe was Shake and Bake (VS+Baleflamer the tasty bits inside) then give us 180 and now you don't have to worry about the Heldrake looking back and doing exactly that. But then for some reason "going back to the way it was," even though "the way it was" was changed for a reason is a valid answer.
"Tactic up, Chaos!" No. The other party needs to stop crying and "tactic up" themselves. Simply put, it doesn't cost a non-Chaos army to spread their ranks and mitigate the Baleflamer. It DOES cost Chaos players money when we have to shelve the damn thing, and it's not a cheap model either.
The limited fire arc of the heldrake now makes it an excellent sniper.
Sure, you'll only cover 4 models. But you're wounding on a 2+ and if you arrange yourself so that your very narrow arc can only see a couple important models, then you're going to be getting more bang for your buck. Maybe you only did 4 wounds! So they're on the meltagunner and the sergeant... oh dear.
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