Wow, I'm not an ork fan in general, but I like the orx above.
Corporate trooper art is up.
Whatever fluff they give it, it's clear from the pistol and powerfist that they want you to be able to use it as IG if you want. I have to say that I quite like it! It's a nice take on a guardsman with a bit of a techy touch.
The energy fist on the far left reminds me of the old NES power glove for some reason though.
The Orx are really quite good, but seeing as how I have like 300 GW ones I am only really interested in getting a few bits (like the scanner thingy the one on the far right has). Hopefully one of the bits sites will pick these up.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Addendum 2: The Raptor is really nice apart from the forks for the front wheel, which I fear are too thin both for aesthetic and structural reasons.
MasterSlowPoke wrote:They're identifiable with, which is wrong for a faction like The Corporation.
Nonsense. Every army should be "identifiable with", because that's why someone would choose to buy the army in the first place. Nobody wants to buy and play a bunch of unlikeable losers, and that's what making the Corporation a bunch of unprofessional, incompetent dicks would turn them into.
I never really got that, that people buy armies they can "identify with". What are you saying about people who play Dark Eldar for example? Personally I've never been a big fan of torture or slavery or stabbing everyone in the back in order to get ahead in life.
Commander Cain wrote:
That buggy looks great apart from the reason Blackfang pointed out, that front wheel looks a little delicate to say the least!
I do tend to agree with this. Were I going to buy one, it wouldn't be a deal breaker, but I'd probably move the wheel back about a half inch so it looks like it's being suported by a thicker section of the fork.
One question I did have. They mentioned that the Forgefather vehicle kit has two gun options. Does the Raptor kit include both the missile launcher and the gun that the rules mention?
Also, for an Orx vehicle I would have hoped for just a bit more options/bits. Obviously it's not like a plastic sprue where you can cram on the bits, but this vehicle is going up against GW vehicles that, while significnatly more expensive, tend to have quite a number of options and configurations.
BrookM wrote:I like the Corporation designs, generic enough for me and can I have a "feth yes" for not using oversized pauldrons?
But how will we know they're armored?!
I hope they don't do the "Power Fist" design.
The energy fist is a far, far better option in this case I think. It looks far more technological, and it's unique compared to a certain workshop of games.
Yes but your forgetting what a good chunk of people will buy these models for.
Have to say I'm very impressed by the orx, as I hoped more like the RT interpretation of them. I also like how it looks like the humans will be more 'future tech', a different spin on things to what most IG players will be used to. With some exceptions, I could see these being a much cheaper option for Elysian drop troopers for instance.
Looked all over beastsofwar for a price on that Raptor and couldn't find one. Does anyone know how much the kit will be seperate from the huge $100 boxed sets?
MasterSlowPoke wrote:Their fluff, as a corporate military, makes me think of more like PMCs - very irregular troops, no set uniform, individual troops armed and armored as per their personal choice. Something kind of like that game Army of Two. Even looking in real life, at photos of Blackwater mercenaries contrasted with US military, there's a noticeable difference. I'd like them to look tough and as evil as a corporate military is. The concept art they've shown looks like a regular infantryman, not much different from any generic soldier put out by dozens of historicals companies. They're identifiable with, which is wrong for a faction like The Corporation.
I'm not saying viewing the Corporation as a bunch of mercenaries (PMCs is a tedious euphemism) is a bad idea, but for me, it'd be making political parallels a bit too odious to tolerate.
I think it could have been a strong concept. But I think aesthetically it's hard to make it a unified army. I imagine it would have some of the same issues that Dogs of War armies had in WHFB.
Agamemnon2 wrote:For me, as an 80s child, "corporate military" evokes images of something like Arasaka and Militech from Cyberpunk 2020, ruthless iron-fisted thugs unified under the banner of their corporate masters, marching lockstep to the sound of advertising jingles.
Agreed. And corporate military forces from fiction of that period, too, like the ones in Walter Jon Williams' Voice of the Whirlwind.
Vehicles both look good. I'm glad they're finally showing some models now. But, still waiting for to see the human models and hoping they'll be good to use as conscripts.
Y'know...I quite like those Orx. They have a very nice feel to them, plus it helps that they have nice a nice paintscheme. May have to pick up a box or two, just for fun.
MasterSlowPoke wrote:Their fluff, as a corporate military, makes me think of more like PMCs - very irregular troops, no set uniform, individual troops armed and armored as per their personal choice. Something kind of like that game Army of Two. Even looking in real life, at photos of Blackwater mercenaries contrasted with US military, there's a noticeable difference. I'd like them to look tough and as evil as a corporate military is. The concept art they've shown looks like a regular infantryman, not much different from any generic soldier put out by dozens of historicals companies. They're identifiable with, which is wrong for a faction like The Corporation.
I'm not saying viewing the Corporation as a bunch of mercenaries (PMCs is a tedious euphemism) is a bad idea, but for me, it'd be making political parallels a bit too odious to tolerate.
I think it could have been a strong concept. But I think aesthetically it's hard to make it a unified army. I imagine it would have some of the same issues that Dogs of War armies had in WHFB.
Also, Mantic have the Rebs for their DoW-type concept.
RiTides wrote:It doesn't look like the same body to me...
I think they are, with some pouches and ammo stuff stuck on. Check the bottom left fantasy guy compared to the far right sci-fi equivalent, and the walking guy top right in the fantasy pic and far left in the sci-fi pic.
Looking at The BoW Unboxing vids things are starting to look promising. I am still not fully sold on the vehicles and the Orx troops look pretty 'meh' but I will probably take a punt on the leaders/characters when they are released.
I also think that they used the same bodies with slight modifications. Mantic still thinks that giving a Fantasy Dwarf/Ork a gun and a bionic eye is enough.
Kroothawk wrote:I also think that they used the same bodies with slight modifications. Mantic still thinks that giving a Fantasy Dwarf/Ork a gun and a bionic eye is enough.
Sry kroot, i must disagree with you here... until now the Forgefathers dont look like "fantasy dwarfs with guns".
But after that orkz, im really afraid they go this way with the dwarfs too...
I normally support mantic, but if this pics are the true product, im glad i dont pre-ordered them.
Kroothawk wrote: Mantic still thinks that giving a Fantasy Dwarf/Ork a gun and a bionic eye is enough.
In their defense, it worked for GW for a decade or so. Why shouldn't it work for Mantic?
Either hes taking a jab at 40k
Or (imo) its because GW does know how to make fantasy orcs and 40k orks have the same body yet look 'different' (at least nowadays)
Actually I'm taking a jab at 40kand pointing out that GW was successfull for over a decade with orks who look essentially like their fantasy compatriots with added guns. Anyone remember the 2nd edition Goff orks? It took them a long time to develop a different asthetic for their sci-fi orks, and it can be traced to the first gorkamorka orks.
Eilif wrote:
Actually I'm taking a jab at 40kand pointing out that GW was successfull for over a decade with orks who look essentially like their fantasy compatriots with added guns. Anyone remember the 2nd edition Goff orks? It took them a long time to develop a different asthetic for their sci-fi orks, and it can be traced to the first gorkamorka orks.
Actually I was more referring to Kroothawks post when I replied
I guess thats the thing though
People here are going "Hey awesome! RT era orks/squats/whatevers"
RT era stuff was pretty similar to fantasy since 40k was literally the same universe/etc and plus it probably saved on production costs to do little extra designing. So the fact that warpath is looking like RT would in turn mean that it would look like KoW IN SPACE with a few non fantasy races such as space dinosaurs or laser armed soldiers
I took him to mean that he didn't think the orx looked convincing with their sci-fi accoutrements.
We have lots of reference of humanoids and lots of reference of humanoids holding weapons.
These look like 2nd edition orks... The issue is unless your market is only nostalgia people looking to re-create 2nd edition retro models, I am not sure why you would make a product line that looks like your competitors technology from 20 years ago. Models 20 years ago looked like 'that' due to limits in technology and design. What is the excuse now?
It is like trying to start a new car manufacturer and competing with Ford and Toyota by releasing your own version of the model-T and claiming 'my competitors made cars like this when they started and they seem successful.'
The bike is awkward, weak looking design, weird little driving hole blocked by the engine and only looks marginally good by comparison to the two GW old buggie/trakk kits. A modern kit made basically by anyone will blow the 'raptor' away.
The Thrudd gun and squats actually look decent with a modern look with good sculpting. The Orx just do nothing for me and are blown away by all the 3rd party ork kits out there. I hope the humans look anything like the concept art because it would be cool if they did, I feel like the orx looked terrible compared to concept arts.
So much potential, As an ork collector I am sad to see such a waste of potential new models.
These look like 2nd edition orks... The issue is unless your market is only nostalgia people looking to re-create 2nd edition retro models, I am not sure why you would make a product line that looks like your competitors technology from 20 years ago. Models 20 years ago looked like 'that' due to limits in technology and design. What is the excuse now?
Kroothawk wrote: Mantic still thinks that giving a Fantasy Dwarf/Ork a gun and a bionic eye is enough.
In their defense, it worked for GW for a decade or so. Why shouldn't it work for Mantic?
Because they're not GW, it's not 1995 and, hell, do we even need a third reason? I'm not offended that Mantic are parasites, I'm offended that they're crap at it. The basic Orx are embarrassingly bad, and considering how horrible the GW plastic orks are, this should have been an easy slam dunk, but apparently they just don't have the talent. The less said about the trike, the better. It looks like something made by Ramshackle, except almost certainly more expensive. Also, I couldn't be sure, but I could've sword the parts were actually warped in BOW's assembly video, something about the geometry of the thing did not look right.
Yeaaaah, Mantic is just a bunch of parasites, no one can left the Tolkien histories die in peace?
Stop using that argument please, or else i will have to point again that if someone in Mantic is coping, other companies had done it long before they (including the good old GW).
But i must agree... the only orx who impressed me is the Hero. The trike fully deviated from the nice concept, and i can sure scratch build something better with plasticar+ramshakle+toybox, but hey, now i can opt to spare me the work
I've been looking at those "Orx" ( they should have just used 'Orcs') for a while. It's clear they used their fantasy range as a starting point and then just altered the torso's slightly (extra armour plates, less rags etc) - I'm fine with that & the old school aesthetic. Now after looking at them there are two things that bug me: 1) the paint scheme - a 'muddier' green or even brown would suit them better (that's the first thing I felt when looking at them) & 2) They're all bare foot! I kind of like the fact they're more barabarians who have learned how to use stolen or bashed together tech - that's fine - but bare feet Did the Corporation take away their Nike's or Army Surplus boots for being 'bad slaves' and did they just go with that? These seem a little rushed to me - I'll get some to paint up and see if they can look better - but am I going to have to greenstuff boots on them all? I hate shoe shopping
I would love to like these guys, but I have to say I'm less impressed the more I see of this range.
The Dwarves were promising, but both of the vehicles just look silly. The 'Orx' are almost ok, but their faces let them down... which spoils the model overall for me.
I can't help thinking that this range would have benefited from spending a little more time at the concept stage.
Eilif wrote:Actually I'm taking a jab at 40kand pointing out that GW was successfull for over a decade with orks who look essentially like their fantasy compatriots with added guns.
Copying your Fantasy orks might work, if your Fantasy Orks wear trousers like in Warhammer. But SciFi Orks in Tunics/skirts just don't work for me.
And the Dwarf armour doesn't look modern or SciFi, but like a platemail.
Eilif wrote:Actually I'm taking a jab at 40kand pointing out that GW was successfull for over a decade with orks who look essentially like their fantasy compatriots with added guns.
Copying your Fantasy orks might work, if your Fantasy Orks wear trousers like in Warhammer. But SciFi Orks in Tunics/skirts just don't work for me.
And the Dwarf armour doesn't look modern or SciFi, but like a platemail.
... and another new manufacturer that I just can't find ATM (posted his miniatures in news&Rumour).
Sry, but i know all this ranges, and never looked at them as "what dwarfs should look in sci-fi". Dwarfs in flak armor are bad, not dwarfy anywhere. Dwarfs value armor, hard strong armor.
Haslefree have some nice pieces, great sculpts for sure, but those dont look like dwarfs, there is simple no reference to dwarf culture, they are just short guys in sci-fi light armor, they dont even have beards, if they had beards, they would be great and easily convertable to "real space dwarves". but that is not the case.
Olleys dwarfs are almost 2 ranges: the gnomish looking greatcoats, and the manecing looking exoarmored. The first are great for space gnomes, better than GW, with a great design, light armor and very advanced looking guns. They even have a dog that look a gnomes pet. The second could be used for dwarfs in space, but again, lack references to dwarf culture (roman culture dont suit dwarfs at all, and where are their axes and hammers?), and are to "SD", just like any GW dwarf to date (and that is the reason why i dont like them). Olleys have the mutated dwarfs too, who again work incredible well for a gnomish chaos army.
Those Velard i have seem before, but i dont like them. C'mon, paded armor? on sci-fi dwarves? And they look very comical. Its hard to do good dwarfs, because they can easily look comical.
Mantic was very sucessfull with his fantasy dwarfs, they actually remember dwarfs withouth baing to comic or to deformed. Their sci-fi dwarfs untill now look very nice, and are so "full plate armor" as space marines.
I just hope the plastic dont come as "gun liners", and that they are not lazy conversion kits as the orxs... (i dont like this title either, but it is a easy way to differ them from GW orcs/orks, lets assume)
H.B.M.C. wrote:I think he said it because Aggy is this site's version of Eeyore.
Actually, I said it because the legs on those orks are hideous. The bizarre bow-leggedness of the models means imagining them actually walking or running is deeply in the brain-pain category.
Sure, there are anatomical differences other than that between humans and orks, and there should be, but the way the legs are built makes the Orks look like pantomime pygmies or something. Doubly so because so many of the basic boyz legs also incorporate the outward-thrust buttocks, resulting in a scoliotic-looking curved spine. They're not built like a plausible-looking humanoid race, especially one who's supposed to be genetically predisposed to physical prowess and ultraviolence.
This picture, I hope, is illustrative. The Boy on the right has a very uncomfortable-looking pose that implies none of the speed and ferocity that are inherently Orky.
After seeing the pictures i have to say i like the direction Mantic is heading. I stand by the idea that you should not need to sell you house to play with toy soldiers. Having said that, i do not like the Orx, they do not seem good sculps to me, the vehicle is awesome, but the orx themselves are kind of meh. Grate value thou, which is what Mantic actually stands for.
On the other side, while not my cup of tea, i think the dwarfts are awesome. High quality sculps, way above anything comparable and grate value. On this ones Quality meets Value, something GW used to believe in.
Just because they plod around like they have full diapers doesn't mean they don't look fine when they walk around. Dawn of war and war online show GW orks looking fine when stomping around.
Mantics ORX do nothing... I like my orks with pouty butts
So far I'm really underwhelmed by Mantics effort at a WH40K rival, and I have little or no hope they'll get the IG proxies even close to where they become a viable alternative to GW miniatures.
Hell, I never thought I'd say this, but between the two GW is soo far in advance it hurts.
It may well be too soon to strike the doom bell, and I fully realise that this is just my opinion, but with the staff they seem to employ for their miniatures, I really can't imagine it getting any better.
When I think about the recent release of the Berserker Dwarves from Avatars of War (as a plastic kit) I really don't see how Mantic can even hold their heads up high when their efforts fall so far behind the "competition".
I too am underwhelmed by the Orx but I can see myself getting the not-thudd-gun and at least a character and some of the heavies for painting pleasure. Hell, based solely on the concept art I may finally be able to afford to build the guard army I've always wanted to build but could never justify...
The Orx grunts are a bit meh in my opinion, but I really like the vehicles. So far, I think I'll be picking up some Warpath stuff at some point in the near future.
The buggy thing is cool and i will buy one when they are on sale. But the rest of the range just suck. And i hardly ever moan. If i dont like something i just dont comment. But this? So far its just crap, the concept is dull and been done to death. The two races so far are just poorly done. The counts as squats (yeah i know they are not really counts as but if mantic cant be bothered to put some thought into them then why should i?) are just laughable! I really understand now why GW dropped them. In a fantasy war game set in space filled with aliens that spit bio acid and living dead robots, evil super warriors with daemon best friends, emo space pixies who get warm fuzzy feelings cuting out your eyeballs, who is gonna be scared of midgets with beer bellys and a stinking beard? And the Orx (or whatever they are) sorry what? Did mantic just travel to the 1980's for their designs? They dont just look bad, they look stupid. I had such hopes that this would really be the next '40k'. But this just a epic fail. I do get the trying to capture the RT vide but its not 1987 anymore. People do want cheaper models but they also expect plastic kits on a par (if not better) than G.Ws. So far nothing looks any good, the background seems weak like a old 80's film plot. The models are so poor i feel smashing my fingers with a hammer just so i wont have to touch them, ever. Even the name and the logo are half arsed efforts by the look of it. Could i do better? Yes, yes i can. Mantic is going regret doing this so bad. They need to scrape the whole idea. They need to forget every 80's film and saturday morning cartoon they have used as insperation and look at other ideas. If they wanna just make a few factions at first, great, look at gears of war, halo, resistance or whatever and films like aliens, etc. They all have a well thought out story, clear and exciting concepts of the good guys who are mean as hell but heroic and bad guys who are scarey but cool as fuc.... Do you get what i'm driving at here? The idea of Warpath is rip of RT (I know its kind of the point) but how is that gonna compete with 6th edition 40k next year? It wont thats what. Mantic can make great plastic kits (undead ghouls) and i hear kings of war is a good game. But sci fi wargaming is for big boys and if Warpath is the best you got then GW is gonna smack Mantic down.
Boomer, i feel sad about it, but i agree with you...
But the dwarfs are not so bad, they are bad as they are painted, but they stand a chance right now. I need to see the plastic kit before i get a real opinion, but after this orcs, im very sad about them.
Boomer wrote:The buggy thing is cool and i will buy one when they are on sale. But the rest of the range just suck. And i hardly ever moan. If i dont like something i just dont comment. But this? So far its just crap, the concept is dull and been done to death. The two races so far are just poorly done. The counts as squats (yeah i know they are not really counts as but if mantic cant be bothered to put some thought into them then why should i?) are just laughable! I really understand now why GW dropped them. In a fantasy war game set in space filled with aliens that spit bio acid and living dead robots, evil super warriors with daemon best friends, emo space pixies who get warm fuzzy feelings cuting out your eyeballs, who is gonna be scared of midgets with beer bellys and a stinking beard? And the Orx (or whatever they are) sorry what? Did mantic just travel to the 1980's for their designs? They dont just look bad, they look stupid. I had such hopes that this would really be the next '40k'. But this just a epic fail. I do get the trying to capture the RT vide but its not 1987 anymore. People do want cheaper models but they also expect plastic kits on a par (if not better) than G.Ws. So far nothing looks any good, the background seems weak like a old 80's film plot. The models are so poor i feel smashing my fingers with a hammer just so i wont have to touch them, ever. Even the name and the logo are half arsed efforts by the look of it. Could i do better? Yes, yes i can. Mantic is going regret doing this so bad. They need to scrape the whole idea. They need to forget every 80's film and saturday morning cartoon they have used as insperation and look at other ideas. If they wanna just make a few factions at first, great, look at gears of war, halo, resistance or whatever and films like aliens, etc. They all have a well thought out story, clear and exciting concepts of the good guys who are mean as hell but heroic and bad guys who are scarey but cool as fuc.... Do you get what i'm driving at here? The idea of Warpath is rip of RT (I know its kind of the point) but how is that gonna compete with 6th edition 40k next year? It wont thats what. Mantic can make great plastic kits (undead ghouls) and i hear kings of war is a good game. But sci fi wargaming is for big boys and if Warpath is the best you got then GW is gonna smack Mantic down.
Put your money where your mouth is. I challenge you to create a better logo for warpath than the current one.
Anyways, more news.
A list of all units in the KoW 2011 2nd edition is out on warseer:
Dwarfs
Ironclad, Shieldbreakers, Ironguard, Berserkers, Ironwatch, Rangers, Bulwarkers, Berserker Brock-Riders, Ironbelcher Cannon, Flame Belcher, Ironbelcher Organ Gun, King, Army Standard, Berserker Lord, Warsmith, Herneas the Hunter, Steel Behemoth, Driller.
Elves
Palace Guard, Sea Guard, Spearmen, Bowmen, Scouts, Sylvan Folk, Forest Shamblers, Stormwind Cavalry, Drakon Riders, Bolt Thrower, Dragon Breath, The Green Lady, King, Army Standard, Mage-Queen, Prince, Lord on Drakon, Lord on Battle Dragon, Tree Herder.
Kingdoms of Men
Foot guard, Spear Phalanx, Shield wall, Missile Troops block, Pike Phalanx, Ogres, Pole-arms block, Penitents mob, Militia mob, Knights, Mounted sergeants, Mounted scouts, Cannon, Organ gun, Mortar, Rocket artillery, Trebuchet, General, Army Standard, General on winged beast, Hero, “The Captain”, Artillery master, Priest, Wizard.
Abyssal Dwarfs
Blacksouls, Decimators, Immortal Guard, Abyssal Berserkers, Gargoyles, Slave Orcs, Lesser Obsidian Golems, Abyssal Halfbreeds, Dragon fire-team, Angkor heavy mortar, G’rog Mortar, Katsuchan rocket launcher, Overmaster, Army Standard, Overmaster on Great Abyssal, Abyssal halfbreed champion, Iron-caster, Supreme iron-caster on great winged halfbreed, Ba’su’su the Vile, Greater Obsidian Golem.
Goblins
Sharpsticks, Bows, Rabble, Mawbeats pack, Fleabag riders, Fleabag Rider Sniffs, Sharpstick Thrower, Bogies, War-trombone, Big Rocks Thrower, Wiz, Biggit, Flaggit, Big Bogie, Mincer, Sharpstick Slasher, Leo & The Iron Goblin.
Orcs
Ax, Great Ax, Morax, Sniff, Bogies, Orclings, Gore Riders, Gore Chariots, Fight Wagons, Krudger, Krudger on Gore Chariot, Krudger on Slasher, Flagger, Krudger on winged slasher, Wip the Half-cast, Big Bogie.
Twilight Kin
Darksome guard, Twilight spearmen, Buccaneers, Blade-dancers, Twilight crossbowmen, Shadows, Lower Abyssals, Gargoyles, Dark Knights, Heralds of woe, Abyssal Riders, Twilight blot thrower, Twilight dragon breath, Dark lord, Dark lord on dragon, Army Standard, Lordling on winged Abyssal, Dark avenger, High priestess of the Abyss, Master of Death, Abyssal Fiend, Death Stalker Simulacre.
Undead
Revenants, Skeletons, Skeleton Archers, Zombies, Ghouls, Mummies, Werewolves, Wraiths, Soul Reavers, Revenant Cavalry, Balefire Catapult, Mhorgoth the Faceless, Army Standard, Vampire lord on Pegasus, Vampire Lord, Liche King, Necromancer, Revenant King, Cursed Pharoh.
I think the current GW orks look ridiculous, with their heads as large as their bodies (although I realise this is strictly a personal thing and plenty of people like them), so I might well pick up some orx on that basis. They will be cheap enough that I could get a couple of boxes and it won't really matter if they don't turn out.
However, I am hoping for more of a sci-fi bent to the later models, rather than 'fantasy with guns'. I think this is a pretty popular opinion and I wonder if Mantic are aware of it?
I’m not fan of these Orx (I find the faces to be too expressionless and the poses goofy) and the not-Squats don’t do it for me at all (their vehicles might)... but calling Mantic a ‘parasite’ is a bit rich. It’s not like they’re the only company doing fantasy or sci-fi races in the same style.
I like the not-Squats alright. Some of their details and poses look off to me, but their Thudd gun looking thing is really awesome. I don't like the not-Orks, but their vehicle is really cool.
I like 40k, and the people i know that play miniaiture games, only play it. But the rest of the people is normally "fantasy inclined" into other midias (RPG, card games and such).
That is why i had hope with Mantic, just for cheaper 40k (but the scenario ended up atracting me as well).
I was on the orxs just for flow, they would come with the dwarfs and such. But those marauders and their kitbash, put me very afraid that the forgefathers go the same way.
At least in fantasy, mantic never give me this bad feeling (i pretty like everything they released until now, including the things i dont like so much, read chaos dwarfs).
I was on the orxs just for flow, they would come with the dwarfs and such. But those marauders and their kitbash, put me very afraid that the forgefathers go the same way.
I really hope Mantic haven't done the same for the Forgefathers - it would be a colossal error. I can kind of understand their approach with the marauders but the bare feet thing kills me every time Still if anyone wants to do feral orcs/orks/orx/orcks/orques they don't seem too bad an option...I feel the Heavy Weapon Grunts will be more like the concepts but we'll have to wait and see...
Although in that link is a youtube video, some of the comments......
Sorry Ronnie, but the Marauders are so fugly, it's not really tempting. I do like the Trike, and I actually like the style of the gunner (Pants and boots!) - but the standard grunts are really, really bad in a very Rogue Trader-era gone wrong kind of way.
Mate, I have seen the Marauder grunts... and they are horrible, WORSE than my Rogue Trader models from aeons ago. I highly recommend you check out Beasts of War or Brückenkopf Online. The Hero-model of the Marauders is damn fine, that's why the grunts are really such a shame. Basically it's the KoW Orcs with SciFi-Bitz and silly Goggles. Killed off all the buzz I had going for Warpath in an instant.
I dunno, that quoted comment is pretty on point to me and not at all inflammatory or disrespectful like a troll remark.
Mantic's model is to sell cheap 'fill-in' models for other popular games... Not make fantastic models.
This ad from Mantic says it all...
Could they have possibly chosen two worse looking models to promote their orc line? They don't care how they look, just that they are cheap and people can buy a horde of greenskins for a fraction of the price. That is a fine business model, but not one that appeals to me because how my individual models look are extremely important to me.
Agamemnon2 wrote:
Sure, there are anatomical differences other than that between humans and orks, and there should be, but the way the legs are built makes the Orks look like pantomime pygmies or something. Doubly so because so many of the basic boyz legs also incorporate the outward-thrust buttocks, resulting in a scoliotic-looking curved spine. They're not built like a plausible-looking humanoid race, especially one who's supposed to be genetically predisposed to physical prowess and ultraviolence.
This picture, I hope, is illustrative. The Boy on the right has a very uncomfortable-looking pose that implies none of the speed and ferocity that are inherently Orky.
Ungainly does not necessarily mean lacking in speed or ferocity. It's fairly obvious the 'upright gorilla' was what Nelson and co were aiming for. It implies massive charging aggression. We should also remember not to get too swept up in what works for human physiology as all bets are off when making fantasy races.
Cheap Implies shoddy. There is nothing shoddy about mantics models. They are inexpensive. Hence the add implying you can get a large orc horde at an inexpensive price.
Ungainly does not necessarily mean lacking in speed or ferocity. It's fairly obvious the 'upright gorilla' was what Nelson and co were aiming for. It implies massive charging aggression. We should also remember not to get too swept up in what works for human physiology as all bets are off when making fantasy races.
I would think fairly obvious would mean easy to notice or have a strong hunch. "Nelson and CO" Have failed, if thats what they were shooting for.
Ungainly does not necessarily mean lacking in speed or ferocity. It's fairly obvious the 'upright gorilla' was what Nelson and co were aiming for. It implies massive charging aggression. We should also remember not to get too swept up in what works for human physiology as all bets are off when making fantasy races.
I would think fairly obvious would mean easy to notice or have a strong hunch. "Nelson and CO" Have failed, if thats what they were shooting for.
The wildly popular run of the Nelson orkoids for the past 15 years seems to disagree with you. Green gorilla is pretty clear in the design and part of the appeal. There is a reason why most of the 3rd party companies emulate the GW ork design opposed to making 'mantic' looking orcs...
Ungainly does not necessarily mean lacking in speed or ferocity. It's fairly obvious the 'upright gorilla' was what Nelson and co were aiming for. It implies massive charging aggression. We should also remember not to get too swept up in what works for human physiology as all bets are off when making fantasy races.
I would think fairly obvious would mean easy to notice or have a strong hunch. "Nelson and CO" Have failed, if thats what they were shooting for.
I realize that the value of art is subjective, but the current line of 40k orks are fantastic in my opinion, and many other people feel the same way. I think that they look ferocious and menacing, and like they would have no problem closing the distance with an enemy to get into chopping range.
fire4effekt wrote:I do not see a green gorrila when i look at orks, sorry.
I think you'll find that puts you in a small minority, or that you're not actually looking at an ork. "Those are Dark Eldar? Suddenly this codex makes sense!"
you know, i might pick up some of the orx and see how they look with a simple head swap, cause really, the faces are the only thing i don't like about them
I will be getting the forgefather army at some point, curse my love of armored bearded midgets with guns
greenskin lynn wrote:you know, i might pick up some of the orx and see how they look with a simple head swap, cause really, the faces are the only thing i don't like about them
Ungainly does not necessarily mean lacking in speed or ferocity. It's fairly obvious the 'upright gorilla' was what Nelson and co were aiming for. It implies massive charging aggression. We should also remember not to get too swept up in what works for human physiology as all bets are off when making fantasy races.
Well, for one thing, look at the spine on that gorilla. It's more or less straight in that pose. The legs are also straight as opposed to the splayed-out legs on the Orks. For "charging aggression", you need legs that look like they could deliver the speed required. Also, for charging aggression a gorilla is a pretty bad reference point, since they charge you on four legs, not two. As for your last point, I don't buy it. We know orks have muscles and even bones, despite being animate fungi. Their locomotion and anatomy should therefore be governed by the same mechanics as those of more familiar beasts.
And now for something completely different,
For me, the plastic Forgefather infantry will be the dealbreaker. If, indeed, they too are just a lazy resculpt piled on top of the preexisting Mantic Dwarfs, then the odds of me purchasing any will go down the drain. I've not seen any concept art on those guys so I don't know if they will be, of course. I'd hope not, because I don't see them meshing with the heavy weapon veterans we've already seen, but the FF Officer does look disappointingly ... dwarvish.
For me, the plastic Forgefather infantry will be the dealbreaker. If, indeed, they too are just a lazy resculpt piled on top of the preexisting Mantic Dwarfs, then the odds of me purchasing any will go down the drain. I've not seen any concept art on those guys so I don't know if they will be, of course. I'd hope not, because I don't see them meshing with the heavy weapon veterans we've already seen, but the FF Officer does look disappointingly ... dwarvish.
but the Forge Fathers are... Dwarfs? Of course they are going to look dwarvish!
As for the bodies, what's the big deal. Who knows what we might not have had the figures being fully resculpted... cost of plastic moulding is huge! and anyway, the bodies aren't even a year old and are barbaric and scavenger so that they really fit the background. The new parts look cool, not as good as the vehicle or the hero, but actually I'm just going to have loads of grunts on the table so meh. I'ma spend my time on painting and modelling the elites and vehicles when they come out, for now i just want to use these to flesh out the army.
Pretty cool huh? Looks like the green is a bit more muted, maybe it was the editing on the preview photo that made them look greener than they actually were.
That is a much better photo. When they released the Orcs, there were complaints that they did not include enough head options. Now, with the Orx release, they have given us even more heads for them (albeit sci-fi, and not fantasy). Thankyou, Mantic.
Another thing I like about them is there slightly less 'heroic'scale proportions, again it is another nod back to the RT era design aesthetic of an ork, rather than the more cartoonish style they have moved to these days.
Personally I love the look in that picture above, if the rest of the range matches I think for the price they will be you can't go wrong!
Sadly they are remakes of the original orcs except with a touch of sci fi.
See, I don't get why this is an issue - the original orcs look great and are like, 6 months old or something. There's reportedly two sprues, and more sci-fi bits on the other one with more blades, heavy weapons and heads. I don't like the stabby arm, but there's enough parts there that you don't have to use it.
That is a much better photo. When they released the Orcs, there were complaints that they did not include enough head options. Now, with the Orx release, they have given us even more heads for them (albeit sci-fi, and not fantasy). Thankyou, Mantic.
'nother example of how they listen, which is one of the things I like about them.
I really like the look of these Orks en masse. Individually they are jarring, but I think that's just because they don't fit my preconceptions. They look grittier and more military than the GW version- which I definitely think is a move in the right direction.
I have to say I'm a bit disapointed with this one. No change whatsoever to the bodies as The bottom half of the sprue is exactly the same! Why did they have to have the figure with the non-replacable head again?
Why repeat the same fixed arm pose?
Why not add some real sci-fi details to the bodies?
I would have expected that the Orx would be an improvment over the Orcs (not that they were bad at all), instead it's just a rehash. I don't mind the ferral look for space orcs, but if the Forgefathers are the same arrangement, then -despite my excitement for space dwarves- I may choose not to buy.
Eilif wrote:I would have expected that the Orx would be an improvment over the Orcs (not that they were bad at all), instead it's just a rehash. I don't mind the ferral look for space orcs, but if the Forgefathers are the same arrangement, then -despite my excitement for space dwarves- I may choose not to buy.
Thank goodness I didn't pre-order!
Guess that there are so many ex-GW people at Mantic that they inherited the will to fail. They have the means to succeed, everybody is wanting them to succeed, then they just add a gun sprue to their Fantasy miniatures and call it a new game. If I want a company to hit me in the face, I rather go to the original.
Pacific wrote:Does it matter if they are reused though if the overall effect looks OK?
If you dig them then it doesn't.
As dissapointed as I am with the rehash, I like the RT vibe and the look is good enough that I'd probably buy them if I were looking to start Orx.
My negative feelings about the sprue had to do with
-Missed opportunity for adding variation by adding KOW orcs to Warpath Orc bodies
-Feeling that it's a bit underhanded to have a blind pre-sale of a new product when the bodies of half the figures are not new!
-It shows general laziness on Mantic's part
-It does not bode well for the forgefathers. If FF ends up being loinclothed mantic dwarves with guns I will be quite disapointed.
As much as I'd love the see this news and rumour thread become solely dedicated to lame attempts at humour through the use of tired memes... here is a pic of the other marauder sprue:
I'm seeing so many conversion opportunities here. SS, where did you get that pic?
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Eilif wrote:
Pacific wrote:Does it matter if they are reused though if the overall effect looks OK?
If you dig them then it doesn't.
As dissapointed as I am with the rehash, I like the RT vibe and the look is good enough that I'd probably buy them if I were looking to start Orx.
My negative feelings about the sprue had to do with
-Missed opportunity for adding variation by adding KOW orcs to Warpath Orc bodies
-Feeling that it's a bit underhanded to have a blind pre-sale of a new product when the bodies of half the figures are not new!
-It shows general laziness on Mantic's part
-It does not bode well for the forgefathers. If FF ends up being loinclothed mantic dwarves with guns I will be quite disapointed.
Its not laziness. When the company is this small, it makes financial sense to reuse existing resources if they would look plausible.
scarletsquig wrote:As much as I'd love the see this news and rumour thread become solely dedicated to lame attempts at humour through the use of tired memes... here is a pic of the other marauder sprue:
Apologies for going ontopic.
Is this an original designed sprue or a reaccessorizing of an Orc command sprue?
I do like the look of the sci-fi bits on it.
So after all the hype and expectations the new SciFi models end up being the same type of goofy half-assed sculpts and cheap army men poses as the other Mantic toys.
lord marcus wrote:Guys, why is everyone getting so bent out of shape on the re-using of the existing orc bodies?
Hell, GW does it with space marines. The only difference between the different "chapters" is bling and the odd special weapon type.
Except that each marine variant isn't the flagship release for their brand new sci-fi game. If these had been "down the road" releases after they'd already established some brand new forces then I don't think there would be a problem. As it is, I don't see why people being disappointed should be especially surprising. They went with a cautious initial release, the downside of that is people won't be wow'd.
lord marcus wrote:Guys, why is everyone getting so bent out of shape on the re-using of the existing orc bodies?
Hell, GW does it with space marines. The only difference between the different "chapters" is bling and the odd special weapon type.
But do you know what GW doesn't do?
It doesn't place a gun in the hand of an empire swordsman to make imperial guard. Nor in the hand of a skeleton to make a Necron. It does not even use fantasy orc for its space orks. The last example is of a set that is so close it can be used interchangeably, but the shoes on the space orks have modern bolts and rivets that make it clearly "not fantasy".
I think a Sci-Fi game that places fantasy races in the future need to be very careful that they look like the future. I dislike the wookie crossbow for this reason. I dislike the marauders for the same.
SlaveToDorkness wrote:So after all the hype and expectations the new SciFi models end up being the same type of goofy half-assed sculpts and cheap army men poses as the other Mantic toys.
This is why 40K is alive and well.
Yeah, and GW sink more and more each year...
Oh, and those are not goofy half-assed sculpts, as all the other Mantic toys... They are good and low cost miniatures, as all the other Mantic Toys...
The only problem on this guys is that i could not help myself, but feel cheated, but i always saw a bit of sci-fi in mantic dwarf design, and the orcs ended up being no-diferent.
But well, until now, mantic give us one "re-use" of and old sculpt. GW is re-casting a lot of old sculpts in a cheaper material (with the low qualitie included), just to tell us it is new, and charge more for it. Sorry, 40k is "alive and well" for his base of fans, and im not sure about how well it is...
Oh, and about the marine thing: Marines normally are not the first rank and file trooper of a totally new set of miniatures/game, they are intended to be "great qualitie conversions" of the original marines, the first rank and file trooper of the related set/game. That is not an excuse, Mantic got the cheaper option around, and that dont please me as a fan, i expected more from them.
Very disappointing. I was actually quite interested in picking up Warpath (maybe 2 copies) but with:
* the price rise compared to KoW for pretty much the same amount of material (despite defenders' comments that Mantic "don't/won't price their models like that").
* recycled Orc sculpts that I'm not keen on anyway - (if I liked their Orcs a lot I might have been fine with it).
* they still haven't shown all the models - this seems to me that they have a lack of faith in their own product's ability to sell itself.
* the bait-and-switch between concept art and finished product - since the bodies are completely recycled and shoeless.
* Space Dwarfs - that could have been the saving grace for me - with crappy gorilla-style proportions. (short legs and long arms).
* Silly high $ prices on the Dorfs.
I'm neither a fanboy or hater of either Mantic or GW, but Warpath had so much potential, and it seems that it's mostly been squandered.
scipio.au wrote:Very disappointing. I was actually quite interested in picking up Warpath (maybe 2 copies) but with:
* the price rise compared to KoW for pretty much the same amount of material (despite defenders' comments that Mantic "don't/won't price their models like that").
* recycled Orc sculpts that I'm not keen on anyway - (if I liked their Orcs a lot I might have been fine with it).
* they still haven't shown all the models - this seems to me that they have a lack of faith in their own product's ability to sell itself.
* the bait-and-switch between concept art and finished product - since the bodies are completely recycled and shoeless.
* Space Dwarfs - that could have been the saving grace for me - with crappy gorilla-style proportions. (short legs and long arms).
* Silly high $ prices on the Dorfs.
I'm neither a fanboy or hater of either Mantic or GW, but Warpath had so much potential, and it seems that it's mostly been squandered.
Mabe they sent the masters to get painted and the painter has a massive backlog? Mabe all the masters havent been cast because of renedra's workload? There are a bunch of reasons they can't show all of the models yet.
As for the bait and switch, the maruader concept art was of the hero if i am not mistaken, although in a different pose.
Prices on the forgefathers are most likely because half the range is resin plastic.
Well, I think I will reserve judgement until the models are released and I have one in my hand. I'm not bothered at all whatever short cuts have been taken as far as design process and production goes as long as the finished article looks ok.
The way that people are going on about the previous KoW sculpts it's almost like we are talking about Thai lady-boys are something - "Yes, I know she looks beautiful, but I can't forget that she used to be a man!!"
Of course, I can understand the upset if you didn't like the previous KoW style of orc and were after something different from this range..
lord marcus wrote:Guys, why is everyone getting so bent out of shape on the re-using of the existing orc bodies?
Hell, GW does it with space marines. The only difference between the different "chapters" is bling and the odd special weapon type.
It's just that it doesn't seem to make any sense that they would recast the same exact bodies. Surely their sculptors aren't so hard pressed as to not be able to change details on 5 bodies. If they are so busy, then releasing a whole new range of miniatures seems like a bad idea.
lord marcus wrote:As for the bait and switch, the maruader concept art was of the hero if i am not mistaken, although in a different pose.
No, they did show the concept art - I think it was on Bell of Lost Souls. Ah, here we go. Even those armoured sandals were less than I would have liked for this new race, and then Mantic went for recycled shoeless, pantsless hobos.
Prices on the forgefathers are most likely because half the range is resin plastic.
And half the range is only resin plastic because Mantic's cutting corners. The cheap plastic miniatures were what set them apart from GW, yet it looks like they put more effort into the two 10-man sprues for their first Elf regiment than they did for the plastics line for the entire Warpath game.
lord marcus wrote:As for the bait and switch, the maruader concept art was of the hero if i am not mistaken, although in a different pose.
No, they did show the concept art - I think it was on Bell of Lost Souls. Ah, here we go. Even those armoured sandals were less than I would have liked for this new race, and then Mantic went for recycled shoeless, pantsless hobos.
Prices on the forgefathers are most likely because half the range is resin plastic.
And half the range is only resin plastic because Mantic's cutting corners. The cheap plastic miniatures were what set them apart from GW, yet it looks like they put more effort into the two 10-man sprues for their first Elf regiment than they did for the plastics line for the entire Warpath game.
Cause its good EVERY GW orc has pants, boots, shirt, belt and straps. Tell me, why do everyone of millions of orcs dress the same and WHERE THE F$*K DO THERE CLOTHES COME FROM.
It seems that the metal forgefather hero you get in the army deals has a helmet that's very similar to the ones worn by the KoW Dwarves. I would be astonished if the Steel Warriors aren't the same kind of rehash as the Orx.
ChocolateGork wrote:Cause its good EVERY GW orc has pants, boots, shirt, belt and straps. Tell me, why do everyone of millions of orcs dress the same and WHERE THE F$*K DO THERE CLOTHES COME FROM.
Clothes are far easier to make than ork vehicles, suits of mega-armor or intergalactic starships. Orks get their clothes from the same place they get all of their other stuff: by pressganging grots to make them.
lord marcus wrote:
Mabe they sent the masters to get painted and the painter has a massive backlog? Mabe all the masters havent been cast because of renedra's workload? There are a bunch of reasons they can't show all of the models yet.
As for the bait and switch, the maruader concept art was of the hero if i am not mistaken, although in a different pose.
Prices on the forgefathers are most likely because half the range is resin plastic.
1) On the first one - you're merely speculating wildly - there are "a bunch of reasons"? And you're privvy to them? Or just excuse-making for them? and honestly, it doesn't matter why they haven't shown the models - the fact remains that it's unprofessional of them. For all the scorn and disinterest about Dread Fleet, GW has shown the models and the box content before asking us for money for them.
2) As for bait and switch - they also previewed trooper artwork. That the Fantasy Orcs with add-ons don't look close enough to. (Concept art looked quite good).
3) Resin plastic, yadda yadda, more excuses, more money. Don't care. Plenty of better models out there for a comparable or better price. I'm not even talking about GW on that point.
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Pacific wrote:Well, I think I will reserve judgement until the models are released and I have one in my hand. I'm not bothered at all whatever short cuts have been taken as far as design process and production goes as long as the finished article looks ok.
The way that people are going on about the previous KoW sculpts it's almost like we are talking about Thai lady-boys are something - "Yes, I know she looks beautiful, but I can't forget that she used to be a man!!"
Of course, I can understand the upset if you didn't like the previous KoW style of orc and were after something different from this range..
Their undead from the KoW box are decent to quite good. The Dwarfs are sub-par but workable. I plan to add a bunch of GW bits to them to add a bit more life at some stage, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't disappointed in them when I got them. At least the KoW box was cheap as chips, which made it all that much more forgivable. The Warpath box is a lot more expensive with a lot fewer models, which kind of kills the "well, they're cheap so I don't mind" vibe for me. The Forgefathers (well, the three models + thudd gun they've deigned to show us at this stage) are well-sculpted but I can't get past the messed-up gorilla-arms proportions.
Basically, if the minis look seriously flawed or like crap, then I'll never buy one. All this talk of "I'll judge them when I see them in my hand" is all well and good, but they have to get to the consumers' hand first. I can't see a compelling reason for me to spend my money to purchase them just so I can see them in hand.
Like I said though, it's largely me being very disappointed in Mantic's handling of the new game and model ranges.
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ChocolateGork wrote:
Cause its good EVERY GW orc has pants, boots, shirt, belt and straps. Tell me, why do everyone of millions of orcs dress the same and WHERE THE F$*K DO THERE CLOTHES COME FROM.
What's your point exactly? I can't understand what you're getting at - are you complaining that 40k orks have boots and pants? Or are you complaining that 40k orks don't have thousands of unique torsos, legs and boots? Or something else...?
Because if you want your 40k orks without pants or shoes, the plastic range is made of an entire series of separate-but-compatible components, as opposed to the same four-odd torsos with attached legs.
The Dwarf Wolf wrote:The problem is we can tell it...
Anyway, i like the general look of mobs of this things, better than i like GW.
Im just disapointed with mantic... thats all...
Let me get this straight.. you like the look of these models.
But you feel angry that mantic re-used the bodies (despite the fact that they have re-used bodies and other components on the elf bowman sprue, undead revenant sprue, dwarf ironwatch sprue and dwarf shieldbreaker sprue)
Question - If the KoW Orcs did not exist, and only these marauders existed, would you like or dislike the models?
If you like the look of the models, then why are you getting so worked up over the re-use of fantasy orcs? Are you sure you're not getting over-emotional about something that really isn't that much of a big deal?
Mantic have always copy + pasted their sprues, this is nothing new. It's what companies who sell cheap hard plastic models do.
- Wargames Factory does it.
- Warlord games does it.
- Perry minatures does it.
- Mantic does it.
If you are willing to pay more for models that do not copy+paste components, buy your models from GW, you absolutely will not find an affordable miniatures manufacturer with a large range of models that doesn't make use of this practice.
Fantasy models in sci-fi is a bit of a stretch, I'll admit, but if mantic makes a profit on them whereas they would have made a loss if they sculpted and tooled new bodies then they made the right decision.
If Warpath crashes and burns, then they'll have learnt an important lesson about taking their production values more seriously in future.
I'm happy to leave it at that. I'm not too bothered by the marauders, I collect KoW Orcs anyway, so it's nothing but good news for me, and I think it just about works. It's not as good as if they'd done new bodies, but it's not bad ether.. the models are still better than the mantic elves or dwarfs even with the re-used bodies.
What will be the make-or-break factor for me will be the forgefather sprue. If it's based on the (much worse looking) fantasy dwarfs, then that's definitely not going to be a good move.
I own 200+ mantic dwarf models, I know for a fact that clone bodies will not cut it, they will look nothing like the heavy weapon troops if they are.
We know that the forgefather sprue will have 2 models on it. That's already cutting it a bit close to the wire in terms of providing enough variation. If the models have closed helms, they can do it. not if they have open helms though, there won't be enough head variants.
If the entire forgefather plastic release is half of a 2-man sprue based on the dwarf ironwatch, I'll start agreeing with the rest of you. Won't stop me from buying 3 copies of the warpath starter (I really, really like the forgefather heavies and vehicle, and the maruaders are simply "hey cool, tons of cheap orcs to add to my KoW army" in my eyes), but I'll admit that they're a bit crap.
Wow, so the second sprue is a rehash also. This is pretty darn disapointing. The cutting of the molds is the expensive part, why couldn't they have sprung for a few new body sculpts?
Seeing the reposted concept art for the orx, it is different enough from the final product, that I think Mantic was wrong to not release the sprue pics before offering pre-orders. My personal feeling is that not having done so qualifies as a bait and switch. Anyone seeing the art would be justified in thinking they were getting new sculpts, when that isn't the case at all.
All that said, the figs are a reasonable option for cheap space orks, I just prefer it when companies are upfront in their dealings.
I'm still holding out hope for the forgefathers. I'm hoping that the higher price for forgefathers (compared to Orx) is because they are new sculpts and real mutlipart kits with many options.
lord marcus wrote:Guys, why is everyone getting so bent out of shape on the re-using of the existing orc bodies?
Hell, GW does it with space marines. The only difference between the different "chapters" is bling and the odd special weapon type.
Not the same thing at all. Space marines are supposed to be standardized, and GW isn't using space marine sprues for
Eilif wrote:Wow, so the second sprue is a rehash also. This is pretty darn disapointing. The cutting of the molds is the expensive part, why couldn't they have sprung for a few new body sculpts?
Because they aren't re-cutting the "body half" of the moulds for these.
The moulds are multi-part.
When they want to produce a batch of marauders, they use the body half of the mould, and the marauder half of the mould, put them together and make the batch of Warpath Marauders.
Then, when they want to make some KoW Orcs, they use the *same* body half of the mould, match it up with the fantasy sprue and make a batch of KoW Orcs.
There is no "cutting exactly the same sculpts out of a steel mould twice" process going on.
So, this is not as simple as "HURRR Mantic so lazy they couldn't be bothered to pay the sculptor for another day's work" as most of the people posting here would like to assume.
It costs tens of thousands of pounds to get a typical mould cut, and the larger and more complex the component (orc bodies for example), the harder and more expensive it is to tool it. Duplicating the bodies would have been a massive cost saving, and is probably what allowed mantic to make a second sprue with the heavy weapons and stuff on it instead of doing resin plastic for those like they did with the forgefathers. Everyone says they want more variety and more components on the sprue, and this is mantic delivering on those demands.
I'd explain more about the manufacturing process and stuff, but loads of people have already stated that they are not interested in hearing any "excuses" or listening to any reasons as to why mantic might have actually done the sprues like this, so I won't bother. The prevailing argument is "I don't care about all that crap, I just want GW-quality models for half the price".
It is incredibly frustrating even attempting to discuss anything on here. The majority of you are:
a) Jumping to your own (completely false) conclusions about what the manufacturing process involves.
b) Shouting down other people's attempts to explain the manufacturing process.
I'm still holding out hope for the forgefathers. I'm hoping that the higher price for forgefathers (compared to Orx) is because they are new sculpts and real mutlipart kits with many options.
I also have high hopes for the forgefather plastics.
Forgefather plastics will be cheaper than the Orx plastics.
It's only the crazy pricing on the resin plastic heavy weapons that is making the forgefather army deals so expensive.
Something like £12 for 5 models. And no, I don't know why they've made them so expensive, either.. that's Empire greatsword pricing, right there.
Forgefather heavies are the only part of the Warpath price list that is actually terrible, the rest of the range is decent value.
scarletsquig wrote:
It is incredibly frustrating even attempting to discuss anything on here. The majority of you are:
a) Jumping to your own (completely false) conclusions about what the manufacturing process involves.
b) Shouting down other people's attempts to explain the manufacturing process.
I didn't see anyone try until now. Split molds do explain a lot. But it makes Mantic look even worse in my eyes - they've recycled half of the actual, physical mold, so why is the price higher?
lord_blackfang wrote:they've recycled half of the actual, physical mold, so why is the price higher?
Yeah, IMO this is the crux of what is bothering people, the combination of repeat bodies + price rise.. I think most people could have dealt with the price rise if the sprues were all-new, or would have been fine with recycled sprues if the price remained low.
Instead we have both at once, and even if it doesn't personally bother me I do see where everyone else is coming from.
The KoW orcs cost £18 for 20. Warpath Marauders cost £20 for 20.
Slightly over 10% price increase is never the best of news, but couple it with repeated bodies and it's gonna annoy people, regardless of the fact that the models are still 40% cheaper than GW and have quite a cool rogue trader kinda style to them.
That said, the marauder army box is quite nice.. you get 50 Orx for £50... plus 2 of the raptor vehicles on top for free. That's a pretty good deal, IMO.
Like most of mantic's models they are average sculpts at average prices.. any move beyond that loses their target market, I think.
Also, worth keeping in mind that Mantic will be releasing 6 new armies (4 for warpath + 2 for KoW) within the space of the next 6 months. Yes, seriously, here is the release schedule:
- October: Marauders
- December: Forgefathers + Twilight Kin
- January: Corporation
- February: Goblins (already sculpted)
- March: "The eighth race" Word is - completely new and unique mantic race. No GW-esque alternative.
I think they might be trying to expand too rapidly.in a market where traditionally you are supposed to wait for a very long time for your hard plastic figures to pay back the cost of the mould and then make long-term profit. It took GW 10 years to pay back the mould costs on the Leman Russ battle tank simply because the technology at the time was so expensive.
I'm not sure that Warpath will be a massive seller right off the bat, but I do think that adding the corporation and the 8th race will really help things along. IMO, those are the 2 races that should have been released first, to make a classic humans vs. aliens game and also introduce some models that are 100% new mantic IP to cut through some of the criticism they've received for that.
I've just received the Marauder command sprue through the post. They look awesome and I am really excited. I do not care that they have re-used the Orc bodies. The price is fine by me and I am all for supporting Mantic through the future. I will enjoy painting my Marauders.
Eilif wrote:Wow, so the second sprue is a rehash also. This is pretty darn disapointing. The cutting of the molds is the expensive part, why couldn't they have sprung for a few new body sculpts?
Because they aren't re-cutting the "body half" of the moulds for these.
The moulds are multi-part.
When they want to produce a batch of marauders, they use the body half of the mould, and the marauder half of the mould, put them together and make the batch of Warpath Marauders.
Then, when they want to make some KoW Orcs, they use the *same* body half of the mould, match it up with the fantasy sprue and make a batch of KoW Orcs.
There is no "cutting exactly the same sculpts out of a steel mould twice" process going on.
It costs tens of thousands of pounds to get a typical mould cut, and the larger and more complex the component (orc bodies for example), the harder and more expensive it is to tool it. Duplicating the bodies would have been a massive cost saving, and is probably what allowed mantic to make a second sprue with the heavy weapons and stuff on it instead of doing resin plastic for those like they did with the forgefathers. Everyone says they want more variety and more components on the sprue, and this is mantic delivering on those demands.
I'd explain more about the manufacturing process and stuff, but loads of people have already stated that they are not interested in hearing any "excuses" or listening to any reasons as to why mantic might have actually done the sprues like this, so I won't bother. The prevailing argument is "I don't care about all that crap, I just want GW-quality models for half the price".
Interesting to know. I am aware of the great expense for mold cutting though I was not aware that they are splitting their molsd. Do we know for a fact that Mantic is doing this, or is this your conjecture? If you are correct, then it would explain much about why we are seeing what we are. You do sound a bit defensive though, no need to get huffy about what you percieve other's opionions to be. If you have more information, by all means share it!
Regardless, of the manufacturing process and $ that might have been saved, I still feel that it's shady and bordering-on-dishonest to release a "new" product with "new" art on a blind presale when at 30-50% of the product is not a new product at all.
^ For a fact. Mantic get their tooling done by Renedra, the same mould-maker that does the models for Perry, Warlord, Victrix, AoW etc. Some of those companies have directly explained the tooling process and how the re-use of the moulds save them money to their customers. Perry and Warlord in particular constantly clone their body moulds across their entire range of models, even the much-loved Perry WotR models have cloned bodies and heads between the 2 different kits (only the arms are different). Mantic haven't gone into this amount of detail or commented on the tooling process, but it's pretty clear from the 100% identical sprue layout that they have not just spent £10-20k+ tooling exactly the same body moulds that they did 2 months ago. Instead, they've saved the money, and it can be spent on other developments... like their crazy upcoming release schedule that is trying to achieve more army releases than GW in total for next year despite the company being a thousand times smaller.
Another interesting feature about split moulds - at some point in the future, it could be entirely possible for mantic to go back and make proper sci-fi bodies for the marauders. That option isn't ruled out, and the current moulds are not a "set in stone" affair.
lord_blackfang wrote:That is an ambitious schedule. I hope I see something more to my liking soon. Do we know yet if the core Forge Fathers are... recycled?
Not yet. All we know is that they will be a 2-model sprue. It is the only thing out of the initial set of warpath releases that we haven't seen, and the starter set is released in 6 weeks time so we should get it soon.
KoW Dwarfs have a 2-model sprue which has had it's bodies used for 3 different things (ironwatch, artillery crew and shieldbreakers).
On each of these sprues, the section copy + pasted has a hammer, 2 bodies, and 2 heads... and the 2 heads look like ass. Really, they are not good.
If we get half of a 2-model sprue as the only new forgefather plastics, with *those* 2 heads as the only head options then I am just going to .
It wouldn't affect the amount of Warpath I buy, I'm down for 3 starter sets regardless.. the forgefather heavies and vehicle are very impressive IMO, and much more interesting to me than anything (dark eldar excluded) that GW has released for 5th edition 40k.. .but it would put a sour cherry on top of what should have been a totally perfect range of models. Really hope it won't happen.
Mantic might not get everything right, or even release what can be considered an acceptable range of models for an army to start with, but it will at least get a ton of different stuff out there. By the end of 2012, they want to have 10 armies released for KoW (including 2 new unique-to-mantic ones) and 8 armies released for Warpath.
They're probably only going to make 1 or 2 plastic sprues for each new army, supported by resin plastic, then on to the next lot. Breakneck pace, faster release schedule than GW. Expect a lot of shortcuts and mantic looking a bit weak for a year or so (but having a TON of new models) as they get the core of their business built up.
2013 is the consolidation year planned for mantic, where they take their 18 armies and flesh them out to full armies and also add an extra 2 armies to warpath. They definitely gunning to be a full-on competitor to GW, but it's going to take them a couple of years to catch up with GW's significant headstart in terms of an existing miniatures catalog that is large enough to properly fund the regular release of new, and properly done plastics each month.
Some people like the Fantasy setting, some people rather like a SciFi setting.
If you are on budget, most people will let you proxy your SciFi army with Fantasy models until you can afford something more fitting.
But a company that wants to offer a serious competition to 40k is well advised not to start with Fantasy proxies. This "Kings of Warpath" approach will end badly if they don't change their strategy.
Scarlet: i just feel strange with those orxs sprue, but i like them and will probably buy. Its just this feeling of "they could have done something so incredible..."
And i really believe that in future they will release some extra kit with proper boots and pants.
I really cannot see such a big issue, at least with the orx using of the kings of war body models as the basis for a model. Orx orks or orcs they are from what I have seen of the concepts they fit the premis well. If you expected something other than green skinned goofy gun toting troops with a odd assortment of armour then look harder because you won't find them in gw's catalogue either.
The main reason for the increase in price is likely that manic doesn't expect enough sales to generate enough revenue to cover cost and leave a reasonable profit.
Although that wouldn't be a correct assumption to make, assuming that the sales figures they gave for their KoW stuff were accurate - 40k is even more popular, so they have to be expecting their Warpath range to sell more. Certainly, there has been a lot more buzz on various forums about it than there was for the KoW stuff (even if it is people saying they are unhappy about the sculpt being recycled! )
I'm wondering whether it was just the case of the previous price range being priced too cheaply. I still think £20 for 20 miniatures is pretty good value, and it gets cheaper with the larger sets. I can't remember the time that GW plastic ork boyz were the same price.
2013 is the consolidation year planned for mantic, where they take their 18 armies and flesh them out to full armies and also add an extra 2 armies to warpath. They definitely gunning to be a full-on competitor to GW, but it's going to take them a couple of years to catch up with GW's significant headstart in terms of an existing miniatures catalog that is large enough to properly fund the regular release of new, and properly done plastics each month.
I totally agree, we have to give it some time - we're behaving a little like a pack of dogs on here, Mr. Owner has just walked in with an open can of food and we're all going mental jumping around him, shouting "me, me, now, now!" before we've even seen what is inside the tin.
Cheap fantasy models appeal to more than just FB players though, whereas cheap Orx really just appeal to 40k players and potential Warpath players. I'd be surprised if there was much of a jump in market size.
plastictrees wrote:Cheap fantasy models appeal to more than just FB players though, whereas cheap Orx really just appeal to 40k players and potential Warpath players. I'd be surprised if there was much of a jump in market size.
Not true. There are sci fi roleplays that need mobs to fight.
Oh sure, though I honestly don't think that sci-fi roleplayers are exactly going to spike/increase Mantic's sales.
Maybe the Forgefathers, as they do have a new look to them to most things out there, but most Sci-fi players who are lilely to use Orx will already have Orks. Even so, Roleplayers don't buy the number of models that wargamers do, obviously.
I was going to say actually, my opinion is based only on my own experience and therefore complete supposition but I should imagine that the number of models sold for D&D purposes probably pales compared to that of wargames.
That being said, GW's prices do seem a hell of a lot more attractive if you only have to buy one box of them
I've got no problems with them using the bodies from the other Orc dudes to use for their sci-fi range. So long as once you add weapons they look the part, then it's all good in my opinion.
Not every company is going to have the time or money to make a different sculpt, especially when the race is exactly the same, just in a different setting. So long as Mantic make a good product at a very reasonable price, I'm definitely going to be using their line of miniatures.
Pacific wrote:Although that wouldn't be a correct assumption to make, assuming that the sales figures they gave for their KoW stuff were accurate - 40k is even more popular, so they have to be expecting their Warpath range to sell more. Certainly, there has been a lot more buzz on various forums about it than there was for the KoW stuff (even if it is people saying they are unhappy about the sculpt being recycled! )
This may be a fair point about popularity, but it also bears remembering that WHFB armies tend to have far more figures than 40k armies.
Pacific wrote: I'm wondering whether it was just the case of the previous price range being priced too cheaply. I still think £20 for 20 miniatures is pretty good value, and it gets cheaper with the larger sets. I can't remember the time that GW plastic ork boyz were the same price.
Definitely agree here. Especially since you will be able to easily find it for 20 percent off at most any online shopping cart store other than Mantic themselves.
Not to rain too hard on the "cheap orks" parade here, but AoBR boyz and nobs are readily available in large numbers, very cheaply. They're also similarly multipart compared to the Mantic figures (ie not the full monty, but with a bit of posability.)
kenshin620 wrote:On the topic of reusing bodies, they can't for that for the Corporation right? Their concept art is just too different from fantasy
They don't even have any fantasy humans to reuse, so there's little danger of that.
Didn't someone say about the same manufacturers making Perry Twins plastics?
I'm imagining war of the roses archers, with electron bows
Scipio.au, sure I agree with you you can get them cheaply, but for many people buying new (and especially outside of ebay), then the prices will be compared to an off the shelf box of ork boyz.
kenshin620 wrote:On the topic of reusing bodies, they can't for that for the Corporation right? Their concept art is just too different from fantasy
They don't even have any fantasy humans to reuse, so there's little danger of that.
Didn't someone say about the same manufacturers making Perry Twins plastics?
I'm imagining war of the roses archers, with electron bows
Scipio.au, sure I agree with you you can get them cheaply, but for many people buying new (and especially outside of ebay), then the prices will be compared to an off the shelf box of ork boyz.
Yes, same Manufacturer, But Rendra is not Mantic.
In much the same way that Black Orc Games is on On The Lamb, and Iron Wind Metals is not Wyrd.
I really don't care either way about these models, but releasing the same models with different weapons is really, really lazy. I mean, the fantasy Orcs and 40K Orks are 100% compatible with one another, but they're still different sculpts (they might share a head or two).
mwnciboo wrote:You could give someone a Million pounds and say "Here this is for you, enjoy it you deserve it".
And 50% of people would go "Huh? Just a Million Pounds, I am severely disappointed".
Bottomline 50% of people are just plain negative, the other 50% talk in sweeping generalisations ;p
How do you come to that opinion, when MANTIC was the one that promised the rose garden and is now serving up turds?
They could have left it alone with just a box or two, and added from there. Instead they are changing the plan halfway through when this stuff should be in my hands right this second.
How many months are we already behind? "Just one more time, Just one more time..." doesn't cut it when they pushed thier game as hard as they did. They distinctly gave the impression that this stuff was ready to go, and the next stuff was in the pipe.
Until they get thier !@#$ together, they can stay in the "Here is my million pounds, it sits nice in my pocket while I pee on your shoes" line.
Protection? We dont use pants only to cover genitals, i think it is more attained with protection against the cold, or enviromental rarshness...
Anyway, im surprised Agamemnon dont pointed it... But about it, orkz are killing machines created to resist head loss, it is pretty easy to consider that they dont need cloths so much.
Oh, and until now, orx are just a regular living specie like any other, they can have reproduction habits based on copulation, why not?
I am waiting for somebody at Mantic to un-do that thing about not removing casualties from units. It's as bad a rule as the second edition 40K close combat resolution. Feh! By the way, the Mantic Orx/Orcs aren't any worse than the two-piece plastic Orcs/Orks that GW used to put out.
warpcrafter wrote:I am waiting for somebody at Mantic to un-do that thing about not removing casualties from units. It's as bad a rule as the second edition 40K close combat resolution.
Why?
It speeds up the game massively. You're not spending half the game messing about taking models off, reforming or anything else. It also makes it dead easy to set up and pack away after games.
It's one of the best things about the game, and it is similar to the blast markers system used in Epic as an abstract way of indicating individual casualties in a mass-battle game. Kings of War also has a lot more in common with Warmaster than it does with Warhammer.
2nd edition 40kmellee was a mess that slowed down the game (yes, I was playing back then, and only the vehicle rules beat it in terms of sheer pointless complexity).
If you want it to be removed to be "more like warhammer" I wouldn't hold your breath. Most of us who are actually playing the game as opposed to ranting on forums about it, like it and want it to stay that way.
2nd edition 40kmellee was a mess that slowed down the game (yes, I was playing back then, and only the vehicle rules beat it in terms of sheer pointless complexity).
Although at the risk of going OT, it depends how you define 'pointless' Personally, I thought the odd turret flying off to land on some troops, or the vehicle getting stuck on course until it careened into a wall was rather cool, and worth an extra roll or twol
There was also the small matter of having to remember that the armour penetration of a reaper autocannon was 2d8 + 3d4 + 2d12 + 5 or whatever.. that was the main thing I was referring to.
Has anyone else gotten hold of the Kings of War 2.0 rulebook? I was fortuneate to get one today in the mail.. and the booklet itself looks really nice. Color pictures throughout.
Small book, about the size of the old Traveller RPG black books, if not smaller. Certainly thinner..
If anyone has questions about it, I am reading it off and on tonight, and could answer questions if anyone has em..
warpcrafter wrote:I am waiting for somebody at Mantic to un-do that thing about not removing casualties from units. It's as bad a rule as the second edition 40K close combat resolution. Feh! By the way, the Mantic Orx/Orcs aren't any worse than the two-piece plastic Orcs/Orks that GW used to put out.
I'll agree with that. The 2nd Edition boxed set Orks were that figure line's low point. Along with the separate-arm Bob Olley sculpts that were from the same era.
porkuslime wrote:Has anyone else gotten hold of the Kings of War 2.0 rulebook? I was fortuneate to get one today in the mail.. and the booklet itself looks really nice. Color pictures throughout.
Small book, about the size of the old Traveller RPG black books, if not smaller. Certainly thinner..
If anyone has questions about it, I am reading it off and on tonight, and could answer questions if anyone has em..
Hey porkuslime. Are you familiar with the "Fishmen" rumours/jokes? Turn to page 33 and read the short passage on the background of the Kingdoms of Men. More precisely, the last sentence, and: "...denizens of deep..." What could that mean?
As for the pants/trousers debate... I think that it is more realistic for an Orc to wear such garments, as befits their more barbaric nature.
It's a really cool rulebook, all-round. I await in high anticipation for Mantic's Goblins and "Bogie" models!
Though I don´t like the design of the Orks, I also do not like the design of the GW Orks (prefer the noble savages/highly evolved orks from Chronopia/Confrontation) I can only shake my head about the vitriol sprinkled all over the place.
Some people here really are behaving like spoiled brats and if that is their real-life character then I would make sure never to be seen together with them.
If you don´t like it: Don´t buy it!
The minis are not to your taste, that´s OK with me.
But calling Mantic cheaters and worse for it is so childish that it reminds me of the usual bickering of politicians. And THAT is really nothing to be proud of.
For heavens sake, this is still a hobby and every single person can do/like/etc. or not what he wants. I have no use for a taste-Gestapo that tells me that a company reusing sculpts is a cheater or worse.
My suggestion: Take a long walk in thet funny thing called woods/nature before posting so much nonsense on just 2-3 pages....
Tastes and opinions differ of course, but if so many people agree on something, Mantic should listen. Remember, they started with a god-awful Elf range that consequently didn't sell well. If they now try to sell the same sprues with some additions as SciFi, they seriously risk their repution and noone will bother with their 40k alternative. Don't try to fool the customer when they are not yet hooked. Saving some money in the creative/design department can be very expensive in the long run.
Duncan_Idaho wrote:For heavens sake, this is still a hobby and every single person can do/like/etc. or not what he wants. I have no use for a taste-Gestapo that tells me that a company reusing sculpts is a cheater or worse.
Wow, "Gestapo" is something of an excalation. It seems you may have magnified and slightly misinterpreted the general bent of sentiment on this thread. I don't think the general feeling is that mantic is a "cheater or worse" for reusing sculpts.
Rather, a more accurate analysis is that many folks are unimpressed with the reuse. The "cheater or worse" comes from Mantic selling them as a "new" product in a blind pre-sale before the public could see that they were a reuse which was the case for a few weeks before the spure pics came during and shortly after the recent "Warpath weekend". It's a fine line, but the difference is quite clear in my mind.
-Reuse and informing the customer (or at least providing pics) = Cost saving, possible accusations of laziness.
-Reuse and not informing the customer = Shady and possible accusations of underhandedness.
If you have bought blind, and now want to cancel your order because the orx are half-fantasy, then go and do that, contact mantic, they will give you your refund and take stock of your "cancelled because I'm unsatisfied with the orx" message.
The endless pages and pages and paragraphs and paragraphs of angst and claims of "mantic the cheating betrayer of gamers engaging in fraud" are unnecessary, and probably mainly coming from large fans of GW making an attempt to discredit the company because they don't want to see a competitive threat to their company of choice to emerge.
Oh there's truckloads of hyperbole on both sides of the argument. Speaking for myself, I'd love them to do well and have similar quality-but-cheaper alternatives to GW products.
I think Mantic's undead (overall) are excellent, while others are sub-par.
Basically, I've been in these games for long enough to see a long, long line of "challengers" rise and fall. I'd like to see them do a bit better than many in the past have.
But just as I won't shy away from criticising GWor giving them credit where I feel it's due, on business practices, model quality, or anything else - I'll treat Mantic (or PP, whoever) exactly the same.
Overly-empassioned defence of something usually smells like Fanboy. I'll also be honest - having "Mantic Fanatic" in your sig colours your posts, and clearly gives others a perception that you feel they can do no wrong.
scarletsquig wrote:If you don't want to buy blind, don't buy blind.
That sentence really is all there is to it.
That's not all there is. A company offering a new product "blind" should offer a "New" product or explain otherwise.
That would have been the right thing to do, and Mantic didn't do it. This isn't going to keep me (or others) from ever buying a Mantic product, but it's the truth and it should be pointed out, if only so Mantic might be more forthcoming in the future.
scarletsquig wrote: If you have bought blind, and now want to cancel your order because the orx are half-fantasy, then go and do that, contact mantic, they will give you your refund and take stock of your "cancelled because I'm unsatisfied with the orx" message.
This is a good point.
scarletsquig wrote:
The endless pages and pages and paragraphs and paragraphs of angst and claims of "mantic the cheating betrayer of gamers engaging in fraud" are unnecessary, and probably mainly coming from large fans of GW making an attempt to discredit the company because they don't want to see a competitive threat to their company of choice to emerge.
That's an awful lot of assumptions, and cheating, and fraud are a bit of an escalation over the general feeling of most of the posts you refer to. As one of the main people who did make the point that Mantic was not enitrely forthcoming in it's presale that the figs were re-"arming" of existing fantasy figs, you may see from my postings that I'm not at all a GW fanboy (or even a GW player anymore) and speak positively of many of the existing GW alternatives, including Mantic.
scipio.au wrote:Basically, I've been in these games for long enough to see a long, long line of "challengers" rise and fall. I'd like to see them do a bit better than many in the past have.
But just as I won't shy away from criticising GWor giving them credit where I feel it's due, on business practices, model quality, or anything else - I'll treat Mantic (or PP, whoever) exactly the same.
Overly-empassioned defence of something usually smells like Fanboy. I'll also be honest - having "Mantic Fanatic" in your sig colours your posts, and clearly gives others a perception that you feel they can do no wrong.
Agreed, I hand out criticism when deserved and credit where due.
Wargaming companies do not make good sacred cows.
Actually, I'm one of their biggest critics, on the points where I feel like there is a genuine problem, and not just a minor quibble that the internet is blowing out of proportion.
I simply limit my criticism to purely constructive and non-confrontational efforts in places where a mantic staff member is likely to read them.
I spent a long time doing a review of the WIP Morax sculpts.. when those models were released, a lot of things I'd pointed out were fixed.
I've made long posts commenting on the specifics of bad presentation on some of the pictures for the website, which were noticed by the guy who photoshop them, who then contacted me and asked for more specifics and advice. I made comments about lack of sprue pictures on the site, and that is something which is slowly being added (note that the abyssal dwarfs in the store now display a complete component list along with photographs of everything you get in the box). The recolour-job for the forgefathers I posted here a few pages back should also appear on the mantic blog at some point... if you stop attacking them and actually engage with them as "the 12 different human beings currently employed by mantic" rather than "mantic, the evil faceless megacorp", you might get a better response.
There is a huge difference between "hey mantic, good effort, but X, Y, and Z could use a little improvement next time!", and "Mantic sucks and are just like GW and I hate them and they won't listen".
Fact: When the warpath rules went up for public beta on beasts of war, about half of the people posting on there were all "Mantic sucks, these rules suck, Alessio sucks because of blah blah 4th edition 40k/ changes to 5th and he won't listen to us so this is pointless".. the other half of the people quietly got on with playtesting loads of games, posting their thoughts, making suggestions, and generally just being constructively critical over the course of several months, putting a lot of thought and a lot of work into improving the rules system.
Guess which posts Alessio bothered to read, reply to, and take action on? It sure as hell wasn't the former.
A lot of people wonder why the GW forums got closed down, and it's often cited as an example of "evil GW ignoring it's fans"... the reality of the matter was, the GW forums were a cesspit of flames, trolls and not a single bit of positivity, even during a period of time when GW was doing a lot of things right (think 3rd edition 40k, early 6th edition fantasy... nice cheap minis, specialist games, tons of support). Trust me, I was a member on there with a lot of posts, and I ended up leaving about a year before GW closed it down, just because the place had spiralled out of control and had a community that was totally unwilling to self-moderate.
Mantic listens to people that are willing to engage with them and treat them with a bit of basic human courtesy. They also have a tendency to listen to their actual customers, as opposed to "X anonymous random on the internet who seems to hate mantic no matter what they do".
In short, my "beef" with criticism is not the criticism itself, but the often offensive manner in which it is presented.
Take Jake Thornton, he works for mantic.. made a few fairly reasonable blog posts recently and the internet did nothing but attack him for it. In fact, our first and only picture of the Orx sprue was posted on his blog. As a result of that, he is probably more likely to dismiss or ignore the internet in future, which unfortunately includes people like myself who are capable of tact, self-restraint and communicating in the manner of someone who doesn't come across as an angry nerd with no social skills (even during the parts of my life where I do in fact fit that description. :p ),
"It's the internet" is not an excuse, if you post like that online, you will be ignored in exactly the same way as if you'd said it in real life.
scarletsquig wrote:The endless pages and pages and paragraphs and paragraphs of angst and claims of "mantic the cheating betrayer of gamers engaging in fraud" are unnecessary, and probably mainly coming from large fans of GW making an attempt to discredit the company because they don't want to see a competitive threat to their company of choice to emerge.
Quite to the contrary, I am bitterly disappointed that Mantic is falling short of being any real competition to GW.
scarletsquig wrote:The endless pages and pages and paragraphs and paragraphs of angst and claims of "mantic the cheating betrayer of gamers engaging in fraud" are unnecessary, and probably mainly coming from large fans of GW making an attempt to discredit the company because they don't want to see a competitive threat to their company of choice to emerge.
Quite to the contrary, I am bitterly disappointed that Mantic is falling short of being any real competition to GW.
I'm guess you were looking forward to getting some Marauders for your gangs of Nu Ork game?
In that case, fair point, it is pretty annoying if you're looking forward to something that then doesn't meet your expectations.
All I'll say is, if you're expecting GW-quality in the sculpts on a regular and consistent basic from mantic, don't hold your breath. They might get there in the end, but it won't be anytime soon. I think something we can all agree on is that they have a *long* way to go before any sort of competitor-to-GW status emerges. I think anyone with high hopes should probably tone them down, and I'm saying that as someone who would really love to be proved wrong.
Don't forget, it took Privateer Press well over 5 years to break out of the "niche game" status and finally go mainstream.
I'm simply making the choice to support them and try to help them improve along the way. Not claiming moral high ground on that front, though - there is nothing wrong with waiting until you find their product acceptable before buying into it, and 99% of people will take this route.
If they're going to come out and play with the big dogs, talk smack like they've done--they better put their money where their mouth is.
They haven't done that. They're all talk.
Privateer Press may have taken awhile to break out of the "niche game" status, but at least they came out swinging with sculpts that while not in the same vein of GW were on par quality wise.
scarletsquig wrote:
I'm guess you were looking forward to getting some Marauders for your gangs of Nu Ork game?
In that case, fair point, it is pretty annoying if you're looking forward to something that then doesn't meet your expectations.
That too (and I would still like to get my hands on some of the gubbinz like that retro microphone looking thingy) but mostly when I heard about Warpath I was hoping for proper plastic vehicles. I believe GW's near-monopoly of 28mm sci-fi gaming is largely down to the inability of anyone else to produce affordable (more or less...) large vehicle kits.
scipio.au wrote: I'll also be honest - having "Mantic Fanatic" in your sig colours your posts, and clearly gives others a perception that you feel they can do no wrong.
Sry, that is a foruns name, that we make use of. We just use the banner of it to show people it exist. Just take a look at everything, and see if "Mantic Fanatics" act so much as fanboys...
Normally, we point our oppinion, and not only good ones.
I liked the result of the marauders, but dont liked the ways to them. That was my point, Mantic had the chance do to something great, but stucked on regular. (Normally my first reactions to anything are over-reacted anyway, i have to work that on me...).
Perhaps, im still waiting for the FF troopers, and their secrecy on them is annoying me, as i am afraid (not so much) that they come with the same logic (wich would be a deal braker for me). The published works on Forge Fathers, amazed me until now, except for the chosen colors (that a lot of people liked, as a type of joke...)
Automatically Appended Next Post: Lord Blackfang, i agree with you, but wait more time. Right now their vehicles are using resi-plast, but i can swear that they want to make them is plastic...
Especially since he sprinkles it with a huge amount of common sense. Something we talk all about, but seldom is used.
Oh, and don´t call me an Mantic-appologist. I am working as a Freelancer in this business, which means that it would be rather stupid to talk BS about companies. Freelancers only survive by judging correctly the good and bad things happening in a company. And believe me, Mantic has it´s share of stupid ideas, too (Seahorse-Cavalry for the Elves anyone?).
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Especially since he sprinkles it with a huge amount of common sense.
I do not agree. He defines them ipso facto as a good kit, and props up a strawman to insult to make them look better. Nobody was asking for the marauders to wear "silver spandex leotards, or smart uniforms with upside-down V logos on the chest", and it was dishonest of him to use that instead of what people actually wanted in his argument.
Yeah, Duncan, I have to agree with AlexHolker here. That article is pretty awful, and does nothing to justify the re-use of those sculpts. I think from this thread it isn't even so much the re-use that is bothersome, but re-use of a terrible sculpt.
It would be as though GW made a 40K Ork Warboss set by tacking on armor and guns to the WHFB Orc Warboss boxed Set. The existing set is hideous. Compounding that with badly done add-ons is just insulting.
I don't want to open the can of worms that is the Orx again - just looking to correct a misunderstanding or two.
I don't work for Mantic full time, just as a freelancer designing the Dwarf King's Hold series of games. Whilst I wish Mantic all the best, I'm not their spokesperson any more than I am a spokesperson for GW, SmartMax or GCT Studios.
Oh, and @Scottywan82, back in the day GW used to do exactly that: stick bits on the fantasy Orcs to make Orks. Not always, but sometimes. Like almost everyone, reusing greens as the basis for conversions is business as usual. That doesn't make these Mantic Orx any better, I'm just trying to use my experience in the industry to put an element of their reasoning in context for folk that haven't worked with sculptors and seen the insides of a plastics factory.
As I have said elsewhere, my reason for posting was to give people a bit more information to go on and try to temper what seemed like ill-informed rants with a few facts.
Finally, if you want to reply I suggest you do so on the relevant thread on Quirkworthy as I'm much more likely to be able to read it and get back to you quickly.
I'm just trying to use my experience in the industry to put an element of their reasoning in context for folk that haven't worked with sculptors and seen the insides of a plastics factory.
I'll give the standard response before someone else gives it less politely: Consumers of a product have zero interest in the manufacturing and design process.
You may get a few fans of the company such as myself who are willing to take such things into account, but for potential customers as opposed to existing ones, it is of no concern or interest, only the end result is.
Thanks for taking the time to post on here Jake, and for the information! But really I fear the only thing that will quell the unrest is some more pics of painted troops from Mantic on here
I'll give the standard response before someone else gives it less politely: Consumers of a product have zero interest in the manufacturing and design process.
You may get a few fans of the company such as myself who are willing to take such things into account, but for potential customers as opposed to existing ones, it is of no concern or interest, only the end result is.
I agree, I think a fair few of the disgruntled comments have been based on the fact that Mantic have used the KoW line as the Basis for their Warpath Orx, rather than an actual comment regarding the finished product.
Personally, I look at this (probably the most complementary picture so far):
And I get a serious old RT-era vibe about them, the mercenary, slightly sub-humanish orks who were out for hire and for their own gain in the heady days of 1st edition 40k. Yes, they don't have a 'hard sci-fi' look in the way of something like Infinity, but then as Mantic are obviously trying to make Warpath so it can sit alongside GW miniatures, and have a similar aesthetic, I don't think that is a bad thing.
Importantly, regarding the multitude of above posts, I don't see them and immediately think "they are the same model!"
I think there is enough differentiation between them that while they are both readily available as 'orks/orx' they have quite different style elements in the finished products, and I think the effect is cumulative with the other wargear, tanks and special characters you will have moving around on the battlefield as well.
Quirkworthy wrote:Oh, and @Scottywan82, back in the day GW used to do exactly that: stick bits on the fantasy Orcs to make Orks. Not always, but sometimes. Like almost everyone, reusing greens as the basis for conversions is business as usual. That doesn't make these Mantic Orx any better, I'm just trying to use my experience in the industry to put an element of their reasoning in context for folk that haven't worked with sculptors and seen the insides of a plastics factory.
Which Ork models did they do that with? I've been buying Orks since RT, and I can't think of any that were re-worked fantasy Orcs. The real issue with these new Mantic models (apart from the fact that they're highly derivative) is that Mantic don't seem to have learnt very much from other manufacturers' experience.
And though I will not get me Marauders for personal reasons I would suggest that you better look at it in person.
With the right paint-job they look sci-fi enough for me when it comes to orks. They are different in general design from GW Orks, but in the same style-vein, i.e. high-tech barbarians.
That´s one of the main problems Mantic has: They need to invest more in paint-jobs and presentation of their minis. More often than not their promo-stuff does not do the the minis justice.
Compared to my Undead there is not much I can complain about with the Marauder Sprue. OK, they might be alittle bit on the 2nd/3rd edition side of design... but that´s taste.
And sorry, Jake´s blog-comment is well-informed and of the little-voice-in-my-head-side that one needs when feelings are getting the better of a discussion. And if folks have a problem to see the article at what it is, than I really have to wonder to what kind of gamer the internet-roaming tabletoppers have degenerated to. (And there are more tabletoppers that do not or seldomly roam the internet, just because so much unnecessery vitriol is sprayed about on the internet). And I really hope that this is just momentary impression and I am wrong! Tabletop is still about having fun and if it is about something else you better check your priorities.
There is a reason why so man designers wouldn´t touch forums with a thirty feet poole. Not because they are snobbish, but because only seldomly a good discussion comes from it.
That´s also the reason why I like blogs like Quirkworthy.
I liked the links to Thornton's blog, and he seems to be quite reasonable. As far as degeneration of forums, you do need to bear in mind several things:
Firstly, there's John Gabriel's Greater Internet F*wad Theory (google it).
Secondly, the GW age skews quite young, and while there are plenty of immature 25 year olds out there, obviously 13 and 15 year-olds are going to be more immature as a whole. Based on not actually being mature yet.
Third, and this is a subset of the last point - I know several older-than-I gamers (in their 40's) that would fit in perfectly with the endless, ceaseless, unending criticism of GW while still spending way too much of their earnings with GW.
Fourth, I see no degeneration. It's the same as it ever was. r.g.m.warhammer was exactly the same, only with less moderation.
-Are the Warpath circular inset bases going to be available separately?
-How wide is the inset circle in the middle?
I'm curious because I have a bunch of vintage spacelords figures and they all have integral bases that look alot like Mantic figures' bases.
I prefer round bases and I'd like to base them up without the added step of puttying the transition from slotta to integral.
And sorry, Jake´s blog-comment is well-informed and of the little-voice-in-my-head-side that one needs when feelings are getting the better of a discussion. And if folks have a problem to see the article at what it is, than I really have to wonder to what kind of gamer the internet-roaming tabletoppers have degenerated to. (And there are more tabletoppers that do not or seldomly roam the internet, just because so much unnecessery vitriol is sprayed about on the internet). And I really hope that this is just momentary impression and I am wrong! Tabletop is still about having fun and if it is about something else you better check your priorities.
There is a reason why so man designers wouldn´t touch forums with a thirty feet poole. Not because they are snobbish, but because only seldomly a good discussion comes from it.
That´s also the reason why I like blogs like Quirkworthy.
I also often wonder why some people frequent forums...
As for Blogs?
They are "OK", but the obvious disadvantage is that they are, by design, very one-sided.
I really do prefer a discussion.
As for Mantic's latest - I admit it!
I'm biased!
I love the 'old school' vibe here.
Could it have been better? Of course!
But it is still pretty good!
Also, I agree that they should go 'all out' when getting samples painted and photographed - sparing any expense here is NOT a good idea.
Eilif wrote:
-How wide is the inset circle in the middle?
15mm.
Thanks, that's exactly the same size as the Spacelords base! It was a good idea for mantic to adopt that measurement, since Metal Magic and a few other lines of vintage figures have the same size base. I wonder if anyone buying reissues of these kinds of figs from EM4 or MegaMinis know that there are plastic bases avaialble to match their minis?
Cyporiean wrote:I'm pretty sure you can regularly buy the square bases.
I finally found the bases on Mantic's site, I'm not sure how I missed them before. The squares are available in several different quantities, so I assume that the rounds will be too! Hopefully my FLGS will be able to order them.
Quirkworthy wrote:Oh, and @Scottywan82, back in the day GW used to do exactly that: stick bits on the fantasy Orcs to make Orks. Not always, but sometimes. Like almost everyone, reusing greens as the basis for conversions is business as usual.
GW Fantasy Orks wear trousers, so the change to SciFi wasn't that hard.
How many modern armies do you know where the soldiers wear no pants?
Starting a new universe where the first two (macho) fractions wear no pants but medieval cloths with the odd bionic eye added, is not what catches the imagination of people wanting to play SciFi. It is just bad and desperate proxying, until you can afford real SciFi miniatures (that are not provided by Mantic). Adding the Humvee clone from the concept sketches would only strengthen this impression.
scipio.au wrote:
Secondly, the GW age skews quite young, and while there are plenty of immature 25 year olds out there, obviously 13 and 15 year-olds are going to be more immature as a whole. Based on not actually being mature yet.
Third, and this is a subset of the last point - I know several older-than-I gamers (in their 40's) that would fit in perfectly with the endless, ceaseless, unending criticism of GW while still spending way too much of their earnings with GW.
Fourth, I see no degeneration. It's the same as it ever was. r.g.m.warhammer was exactly the same, only with less moderation.
Haha yes I agree, I think in some ways that conversations on forums these days are a lot more measured and polite than they used to be, thinking about the old Relic forums and earlier days of B&C and the like, when people used to be getting banned left right and centre. Your first comment about maturity really made me lol by the way
I also often wonder why some people frequent forums...
As for Blogs?
They are "OK", but the obvious disadvantage is that they are, by design, very one-sided.
That's true, although I think sometimes if they are written by someone well informed, or even simply good at writing, they can provide a good platform for information. Thinking back you have blogs such as 'From the Warp' which is a wonderful hub for modelling and painting, or something like 'The Back 40k' which provided a very enlightening article on some of the exploits of GW this summer, and a look under the bonnet as it were (see here http://theback40k.blogspot.com/2011/04/help-kirby-is-eating-our-hobby.html)
As this thread proves, 'discussion' can sometimes just degenerate into tit-for-tat, just repeating the same old comments in the absence of any new content coming into the thread.
Quirkworthy wrote:Oh, and @Scottywan82, back in the day GW used to do exactly that: stick bits on the fantasy Orcs to make Orks. Not always, but sometimes. Like almost everyone, reusing greens as the basis for conversions is business as usual.
GW Fantasy Orks wear trousers, so the change to SciFi wasn't that hard.
How many modern armies do you know where the soldiers wear no pants?
Starting a new universe where the first two (macho) fractions wear no pants but medieval cloths with the odd bionic eye added, is not what catches the imagination of people wanting to play SciFi. It is just bad and desperate proxying, until you can afford real SciFi miniatures (that are not provided by Mantic). Adding the Humvee clone from the concept sketches would only strengthen this impression.
Right... Only that your descriptions fits only into one product they have show until now, the marauders troopers, and they even looks nice that way. Just tell me: why they MUST wear pants... They are some type of barbaric rable, that know how to use guns. They have some guns they stole from more advanced races, and they wear protective bits around the vital organs (breast and head, if they fallow the "general vertebrate anatomy").
Give me one good logic explanation for your necessity for pants.
Kanluwen wrote:If they're going to come out and play with the big dogs, talk smack like they've done--
Say what? someone explain what hes talking about.
He is saying that mantic made to much noise around their products, and created a lot of expectative. But it should have not made it.
Mantic should have worked like GW, with last century marketing stretegies. You know, Mantic actually use Internet to advise about their products, and we all know it dont work...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Cyporiean wrote:
The Dwarf Wolf wrote:
Cyporiean wrote:Sorry its kinda blurry, but here are some Marauders next to a few other miniatures..
Im sry, but how do you have one of those marvelous forge fathers? o.O
I really want one of those... that must be good to live so near Mantic HQ
I live in Florida, FF is from Gencon.
Cyporian, would you mind to take a shoot of it side by side with a Space Marine? I really want to know how they stand near GW Pretty Boys
I just need to wait 1 more month to order mine right?
Kanluwen wrote:If they're going to come out and play with the big dogs, talk smack like they've done--
Say what? someone explain what hes talking about.
He is saying that mantic made to much noise around their products, and created a lot of expectative. But it should have not made it.
They did not "create a lot of expectations".
They came out and made promises.
They said that they were revealing an IP "never seen before".
What did they reveal? "Not-Rogue Trader".
They said they were bringing an "all-new way to play".
What did they bring? A clumsy system that a child could have written better.
Mantic should have worked like GW, with last century marketing strategies
Cute deflection. Maybe I should get a "GW Fan Club" banner for my sig.
You know, Mantic actually use Internet to advise about their products, and we all know it dont work...
"Advise"? I assume you mean "advertise". Advertising is great and all, but when you're trying to move from a niche market(Fantasy) to creating your own IPs and your claim to fame so far is "We make cheap models and play on the nostalgia factor for a market share!"--you have problems.
LunaHound wrote:Really? so far I have only seen the glasses guy, sitting alone on a table, of a small office room.
Doesn't seem too flashy...
Then you haven't been looking. They have their own version of a "Games Day", they show up at a great many cons, are constantly on Beasts of War, etc.
They've been hyping this game up for a long time.
And also, unlike GW, Mantic still needs exposure.
No, what Mantic needs is to get their crap together. They're releasing subpar models, subpar rules, and trying to break out with their own IP.
They aren't at the stage yet with world known popularity.
So because they're "unknown"(which they're really not. Almost every forum relating to wargaming has had discussions/postings about them, and most internet retailers stock their products. The only place where they're "unknown" is B&M retailers, who would rather stock a proven brand like GW or PP than a game system which no one has no interest in), they get leeway for these kinds of bragging shenanigans?
And for what reason would a person possibly have or care if Mantic make miniature they don't think is up to par with GW, or whether their advertisement is too "loud"?
Triszin wrote:here's a re-coloring hybrid alpha did on warseer.
What was the original pic?
Automatically Appended Next Post: They look okay, though the second guy from the left always just looks bad with that raised right shoulder.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Alpharius wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:
Velard:
Kroot - I kind of like these, but I can't get their website to load.
Do you have any more pictures of Velard's Space Dwarves?
These are pretty clearly rippe- ...inspired by the RT-era squats. I don't actually have an issue with the design of the Forgefathers, it's just the execution (over-long arm length) that puts me off them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Oh, Kanluwen. I've learned to use the ignore filter where it's needed. I'm enjoying my time on Dakka much more with that in place.
The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Right... Only that your descriptions fits only into one product they have show until now, the marauders troopers, and they even looks nice that way. Just tell me: why they MUST wear pants...
1.) ALL shown miniatures from TWO fractions don't wear pants.
2.) Ask current elite soldiers why they don't wear mini skirts 3.) Having only medieval themed armies in a SciFi game is odd, if you pretend to do a non-medieval themed game.
LunaHound wrote:Really? so far I have only seen the glasses guy, sitting alone on a table, of a small office room.
Doesn't seem too flashy...
Then you haven't been looking. They have their own version of a "Games Day", they show up at a great many cons, are constantly on Beasts of War, etc.
They've been hyping this game up for a long time.
We've done these same things... Lots of companies do..
LunaHound wrote:And for what reason would a person possibly have or care if Mantic make miniature they don't think is up to par with GW, or whether their advertisement is too "loud"?
Because every miniature ever made MUST be useable in a Games Workshop game.
LunaHound wrote:Really? so far I have only seen the glasses guy, sitting alone on a table, of a small office room.
Doesn't seem too flashy...
Then you haven't been looking. They have their own version of a "Games Day", they show up at a great many cons, are constantly on Beasts of War, etc.
They've been hyping this game up for a long time.
We've done these same things... Lots of companies do..
Yet you don't come out saying that your game is going to be "the most innovative and amazing" thing, and bragging about the fact that you recently hired a bigwig from GW's studios do you?
LunaHound wrote:And for what reason would a person possibly have or care if Mantic make miniature they don't think is up to par with GW, or whether their advertisement is too "loud"?
Because every miniature ever made MUST be useable in a Games Workshop game.
Yes, please put words in my mouth.
The reason is because in this day and age, there's no excuse for sculpts that look like they were done in the 80s.
Especially for plastic kits intended to be for a game system where the designer is bragging about how it will be a "40k killer".
LunaHound wrote:And for what reason would a person possibly have or care if Mantic make miniature they don't think is up to par with GW, or whether their advertisement is too "loud"?
Because every miniature ever made MUST be useable in a Games Workshop game.
Yes, please put words in my mouth.
The reason is because in this day and age, there's no excuse for sculpts that look like they were done in the 80s.
Especially for plastic kits intended to be for a game system where the designer is bragging about how it will be a "40k killer".
Didn't put any words into your mouth, but everytime a new miniature gets posted someone in the thread will say 'A Good Proxy for this unit' or 'Neat, but no use for 40k' etc. Unless that person is you, don't worry about chewing on the words.
Cyporiean wrote:
Didn't put any words into your mouth, but everytime a new miniature gets posted someone in the thread will say 'A Good Proxy for this unit' or 'Neat, but no use for 40k' etc. Unless that person is you, don't worry about chewing on the words.
Not trying to bite your head off Cyporiean. The intent of posts tends to get very skewed or outright ignored in Mantic threads, and I was preempting what I thought was being done.
You are right about the proxy thing, but in quite a few cases they're commenting on models which are being sold with a wink and a nod to be a proxy for a unit in 40k.
When people post those magical words "Neat, but no use for 40k" in Infinity threads though it makes me facepalm fairly hard, and I don't think I'm alone in that.
Kanluwen, how much companies you see around that survived GW competition in their own area? I mean, there is no competitor for 40k, except for skirmish games, and in that case they are not true competitors.
Mantic is trying to offer a new game, but they actually learned with the failed projects of other people, and are trying to grow bigger proxyng GW stuff. GW have the only sci-fantasy in the market, any othere sci-fantasy product, will look like GW. Do it in other way, is just suicide.
People have this tendency to look at Mantic and say "they are stealing the hard work of GW", but they are not, instead they are producing alternatives to GW. And GW itself made this situation, treating their long time fans with disrespect.
PS: if you want to use a "GW fans" banner, go ahead and do it, specially if you dont feel offended with all they hav done. For me, finecast, overprices, south embargo and increased codex creepy are far worse than a sprue re-use.
If i want to put real money on toy soldiers, i will do that with Corvus Bell and Infinity, hardly with GW...
There are hater(s)? in this thread, that's all there is to it.
Any new company that dabbles in fantasy or sci fi will be considered another dog trying to eat some food off GW's food bowl.
To most of us, thats fine, any healthy alternative and different miniatures are welcomed.
Well, to some, they cant stomach that.
LunaHound wrote:There are hater(s)? in this thread, that's all there is to it.
Any new company that dabbles in fantasy or sci fi will be considered another dog trying to eat some food off GW's food bowl.
To most of us, thats fine, any healthy alternative and different miniatures are welcomed.
Well, to some, they cant stomach that.
I think it is 'odd' for for Warpath to be about a giant evil space corporation which enslaves aliens and all that jazz then have the boxed set and two races both be aliens who have nothing to do with the corporation, the major antagonist of the universe... "let me promise you a brand new awesome game and gaming universe then highlight the epic squabbles of two insignificant races." It would be like releasing a Star Wars game without storm troopers and Jedi and making the first releases be gungans VS jaba the hutt.
I welcome alternative game systems, Mantic's system seems crappy and *MOST* people will play 40k with them.
I welcome alternative IPs and universes, Mantic's IP sounded cool at first, then they ruined orx making them GW orks down to the snotlings and totally avoid any involvement of the core part of their fluff, 'the corporation'. *MOST* people will pretend they are 40k orks and 40k squats.
I welcome alternative models, Mantic's models are low quality, look bad, fall flat compared to awesome concept art, are not inventive and seem like fantasy in space.
Trying to be like people who are not liking Mantic's models/game/Ip are just GW haters is carrying Mantic's water. I could say some people who are so determined to see GW armed will blindly support anything MANTIC does simply to help promote that they succeed even if they don't deserve to by making inferior everything. Mantic is very much being criticized on the quality of their product and what they promised to deliver...
They should have at least tried to release 'the corporation' as one of the two core factions If they wanted the game to be taken seriously as a stand-alone game and not have the perception of a unit-filler line for 40k. ORX wouldn't have gotten as much scrutiny as a limited expansion pack army like their fluff suggests. No one would have cared if they were a fantasy retool if there were some core Sci-Fi armies that looked good and had good rules and an engaging fluff.
@nkelsch: I love GW, I love Mantic. GW was my heart and soul for many, many years. They still are, but Mantic is the one for me. I admit that the *emotion expressed* towards GW is quite often unjustified, over-exagurated and negative to say the least, but what I'm seeing here is no better towards Mantic. There is truth on both sides, and no-one has the correct answer. I just hope that GW and Mantic improve for the years to come.
I don't know if this is the best place to post these, but I'm sure that people will appreciate. The paintjob is not perfect:
What can I say? The models were really quick and fun to paint, and left plenty of room for the Quickshade to play around on. I especially like the Marauder with the goggle-head, and quite like the pose of the heavy weapon trooper, a.k.a. "Heavy" (he is a Russain). Speaking of said model, the gun itself is really cool and, in my eyes, original. To me, from painting these models, it almost feels as though Mantic's Orcs were originally intended to be sci-fi from conception.
BUT WHAT IF MANTIC RE-USES *THEIR* DWARF SPRUES FOR THE FORGEFATHERS?! I don't know, I really like Mantic's Dwarfs (but do not possess any), and if they use them for the Forgefathers, to me it will be a win/win situation.
The orx look very comparable to me to the plastic orks that were in the gorkamorka boxed set from GW many years ago. Whille not bad, they're not up to current standards, those gorkamorka orks were released what a dozen years ago. The forge fathers so far look better, but don't really float my boat. I'm hopeful that some other faction of Warpath will appeal to me as I like to mix up what minis I buy. I have lots of GW product, but I also have stuff from Void, Wargames Factory, Hasslefree, etc.
Tazok wrote:The orx look very comparable to me to the plastic orks that were in the gorkamorka boxed set from GW many years ago. Whille not bad, they're not up to current standards, those gorkamorka orks were released what a dozen years ago. The forge fathers so far look better, but don't really float my boat. I'm hopeful that some other faction of Warpath will appeal to me as I like to mix up what minis I buy. I have lots of GW product, but I also have stuff from Void, Wargames Factory, Hasslefree, etc.
LunaHound wrote:There are hater(s)? in this thread, that's all there is to it.
Any new company that dabbles in fantasy or sci fi will be considered another dog trying to eat some food off GW's food bowl.
To most of us, thats fine, any healthy alternative and different miniatures are welcomed.
Well, to some, they cant stomach that.
I think it is 'odd' for for Warpath to be about a giant evil space corporation which enslaves aliens and all that jazz then have the boxed set and two races both be aliens who have nothing to do with the corporation, the major antagonist of the universe... "let me promise you a brand new awesome game and gaming universe then highlight the epic squabbles of two insignificant races." It would be like releasing a Star Wars game without storm troopers and Jedi and making the first releases be gungans VS jaba the hutt.
(snip)
No one ever said corporation was the main focus of the game.
And thank god for that. People want aliens. Just like I'm sure lots of people would be happy if GW stopped focusing so entirely on the Imperium.
Agamemnon2 wrote:This proves nothing, BoW are professional shills completely devoid of credibility.
Oh Aggy. Your cloudy-day posts never fail to put a smile on my face and a spring in my step.
Kanluwen wrote:Yet you don't come out saying that your game is going to be "the most innovative and amazing" thing, and bragging about the fact that you recently hired a bigwig from GW's studios do you?
Just like you don't come out and promise a revolution in miniatures and the most detailed miniatures ever made in the history of ever... and then release Finecast, right?
H.B.M.C. wrote:Just like you don't come out and promise a revolution in miniatures and the most detailed miniatures ever made in the history of ever... and then release Finecast, right?
Cosmic wrote:What can I say? The models were really quick and fun to paint, and left plenty of room for the Quickshade to play around on. I especially like the Marauder with the goggle-head, and quite like the pose of the heavy weapon trooper, a.k.a. "Heavy" (he is a Russain). Speaking of said model, the gun itself is really cool and, in my eyes, original.
As always, comments and photos from someone's actually built and painted carry a lot more weight than posturing and prejudices. They do look a bit rough, but the weapons and gear looks nice - especially (as you say) the heavy weapon. They do look quite similar to the GorkaMorka plastic Orks - particularly the heads and the legs. Setting aside the lack of originality, I think they're okay.
Actually they never called it a WHFB-/40K killer and to be precise the same folks that now howl started calling it that.
Since I have been promoting their game with them during some events I know quite well what they say about it and what not. And quite some stuff is written here that is not true but wishfull thinking.
Duncan, dont you understand? There is some "secret rule" among costumers that say: Comapanies that do advertise they products, are doing it wrong, and deserve to be burned in the hot white fire. Except when they do it 1 week before the release, of better, after it)
About the new KoW: KoW is just amazing for me, the second edition is just better. Not much to coment on it, but new nerve system, new armylist structure, and an introductory scenario just make it "koool" (that is actually better than "cool").
I just wish to know what really is the mounts of dwarf berserkers, i hope they are not bears, but mountain goats. But i just loved the excuse for dwarf cavalry, they are the berserkers, the sundered, the dwarfs who live outside the mountain.
Im excited too about the goblins, and hope they dont come as "tribal gobos", but as "steam junkyard". I think it will not happen thought...
Nice... the rules are basically a disgruntled fan-fiction version of 40k run through a thesaurus.
The whole point of time clocks shows they have no idea how interactive game phases in their own game works as many actions should count against 'both' players.
The rules are terrible, so much wasted opportunity for a different way of wargaming... The people writing it can't get 40k off the brain.
The Dwarf Wolf wrote:About the new KoW: KoW is just amazing for me, the second edition is just better. Not much to coment on it, but new nerve system, new armylist structure, and an introductory scenario just make it "koool" (that is actually better than "cool").
I just wish to know what really is the mounts of dwarf berserkers, i hope they are not bears, but mountain goats. But i just loved the excuse for dwarf cavalry, they are the berserkers, the sundered, the dwarfs who live outside the mountain.
Im excited too about the goblins, and hope they dont come as "tribal gobos", but as "steam junkyard". I think it will not happen thought...
Sorry, my lack of knowledge in the english language dont let me know what is a brock... its some type of mole relative? I thouth it was some type of "nick name" for the animals i mentioned above...
Anyway, with that claws, with the size of a horse/poney, it can be the cuttest thing ever, but it will be killy too
Liked the ideia, bring on the miniatures
For those claiming "40K COPY!!!!", dakka rules dont let me express myself as i really feel about that rants. So, i will not discuss it anymore, and i strongly suggest that other people do the same... Haters gona hate, specially if they are appologizers...
The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Sorry, my lack of knowledge in the english language dont let me know what is a brock... its some type of mole relative? I thouth it was some type of "nick name" for the animals i mentioned above...
Anyway, with that claws, with the size of a horse/poney, it can be the cuttest thing ever, but it will be killy too
Liked the ideia, bring on the miniatures
For those claiming "40K COPY!!!!", dakka rules dont let me express myself as i really feel about that rants. So, i will not discuss it anymore, and i strongly suggest that other people do the same... Haters gona hate, specially if they are appologizers...
If you had read the article it has different translations for badger.
Brock is scottish.
Automatically Appended Next Post: On a different note i think the chess clocks are a good idea. removes slow play from the game (mostly)
From what I'm hearing from over the waves of the internet in the lands of Warseer, many have been suggesting that the current Warpath rules are reminiscent of 2nd edition 40k. It's as if they're in a transition between being a sci-fi skirmish game and a mass-battles game... and so is current 40k, to an extent. At the moment, a large game of Warpath takes as long as a similar-sized game of 40k.
There is an idea (that had already been proposed but rejected) to use circular movement trays to move units around the battlefield, speeding up game time dramatically (think Epic 40k). I, for one, am in great support of this. Game mechanics would have to be changed quite substantially. What do people think?
Cosmic wrote:Game mechanics would have to be changed quite substantially. What do people think?
I'm definitely an advocate of the big bases. Would the mechanics have to change that much?
The radius to the leader coherency rule just gets replaced with requiring 2" coherency between 5-model large bases and the leader is still used for LoS etc as he is now.
KoW I really enjoy. Warpath still has an identity crisis that needs resolving IMO.
Cosmic wrote:From what I'm hearing from over the waves of the internet in the lands of Warseer, many have been suggesting that the current Warpath rules are reminiscent of 2nd edition 40k. It's as if they're in a transition between being a sci-fi skirmish game and a mass-battles game... and so is current 40k, to an extent. At the moment, a large game of Warpath takes as long as a similar-sized game of 40k.
To an extent. But 2nd edition was slow because it was a skirmish game, with lots of and lots of detail. Warpath has some of the trappings of a skirmish game, like the line of sight and coherency being by model, but they don't actually do anything except slow the game down.
There is an idea (that had already been proposed but rejected) to use circular movement trays to move units around the battlefield, speeding up game time dramatically (think Epic 40k). I, for one, am in great support of this. Game mechanics would have to be changed quite substantially. What do people think?
That would have been a fantastic mechanic. The idea that highly trained space battles run around willy nilly on a battlefield is absurd. Since all their units are standard sizes, they could have made skirmish formation trays which in a specific formation, the unit acts with a special rule. Skirmish trays for when 'in formation'. This would have been a really good way to enter the market by making a game that had faster play.
You could have square formations for fast movement, Circular for defending and a straight line for shooting and searching. You can then give rules based upon it and choose your formation pre-game. This could also give armies the ability to choose opponents then choose formations. Maybe against one army you will be taking defensive positions and others you will be interested in speedy ones.
nkelsch wrote:That would have been a fantastic mechanic. The idea that highly trained space battles run around willy nilly on a battlefield is absurd. Since all their units are standard sizes, they could have made skirmish formation trays which in a specific formation, the unit acts with a special rule. Skirmish trays for when 'in formation'. This would have been a really good way to enter the market by making a game that had faster play.
You could have square formations for fast movement, Circular for defending and a straight line for shooting and searching. You can then give rules based upon it and choose your formation pre-game. This could also give armies the ability to choose opponents then choose formations. Maybe against one army you will be taking defensive positions and others you will be interested in speedy ones.
I hear you, nkelsch. Any more ideas is a good thing. I was thinking that units could choose to opt from a standard formation (on a circular movement tray) to a skirmish formation (no tray), gaining and losing abilities at the same time. For example: a standard formation of Forgefathers wants to take on on an entrenched enemy in a building complex, and so form a skirmish formation and move in (where the long hard slog begins). It's seems realistic; close-quarter warfare takes much longer and more effort. This way, the player can move their models around more carefully than being on a movement tray, treating each model more as an individual rather than as a unit (and taking advantage of everything possible). Standard formation is for when the units want to get from A to B quicker, open-ground warefare, or strength in numbers. Being in skirmish formation slows them down considerably, gaining advantage of cover and avoiding enemy fire, but leaving them at the mercy of enemy melee (especially if they're attacked by a standard formation, which moves much quicker and is stronger). A unit must decide whether it is in standard or skirmish formation at the start of it's turn (or whether it can physically be in standard formation) before anything else is done.
That seems incredibly fiddly, especially at this scale.
How do you have (multiple) 10" diameter templates interacting with terrain? Do you have to swap your guys in and out of movement trays every time you change formation or do you just have to buy twice as many models and have them permanently on the tray and versions that are just based normally?
The trouble for me with the not removing casualties thing is that it doesn't solve any problems I've ever had. You have an inherent morale/wound mechanic built in to model removal that you're choosing not to use, but then your abstraction doesn't make moving dozens of models around any less fiddly.
No, just using clear plastic trays, but yes, I can see the problems it may cause.
Prehaps if the models remain on the movement trays throughout the game, then the players only deal with combating different sized circular units (section, platoon, and hero - that's 25mm bases). Vehicles and monsters don't count (they just work by themselves).
If a unit wants to make use of cover, it must have less than 50% of it's base showing to the enemy. If a unit moves into a building, remove the tray and make it clear that your unit is inside. Unlike KoW, units do not have a rear, side and front facing. It's the same all-around.
lord_blackfang wrote:Sounds like it'd be awfully close to looking like Epic in 28mm scale.
Yes, yes, I think you are correct. Is that not a good thing? I've never played Epic in all honesty, but I think that Mantic can still thrown in their own twist - just like Kings of War is very similar to Black Powder. I don't see another way of successully creating a massed sci-fi wargame. People say that the best 40k Apocalypse games are played with around 2000-3000 points a-side, because *the* player can field whatever they choose... but that isn't "massed sci-fi battles".
plastictrees wrote:That seems incredibly fiddly, especially at this scale.
How do you have (multiple) 10" diameter templates interacting with terrain? Do you have to swap your guys in and out of movement trays every time you change formation or do you just have to buy twice as many models and have them permanently on the tray and versions that are just based normally?
The trouble for me with the not removing casualties thing is that it doesn't solve any problems I've ever had. You have an inherent morale/wound mechanic built in to model removal that you're choosing not to use, but then your abstraction doesn't make moving dozens of models around any less fiddly.
They already have a clumsy movement and 1" coherency rule and 5" from the leader... I am unsure how you can play on a lot of terrain with a 1" coherency.
Like I said before... They took 40k... and made it worse to play. I would assume a gaming system based upon trays would have less to do with walking on terrain and more about other things. The way people LOVE tanks in 40k it is pretty clear most people like moving single units over moving 30 individual boyz. Maybe if man-based units moved around similar to tanks via trays you might see a change. You can use tray movement without going hardcore fantasy movement with wheeling and crap. Just a general way to push units around a table without having to deal with rubber banding, overmeasuring, slow play and all the other issues with 80+ skirmish models on foot.
Try to stuff movement trays into 40k it will fail, but we are not playing 40k, we would be playing a new game based around these mechanics. If all you do is compare any suggestions in how it fits into 40k, everything fails... (but this appears to be how they developed Warpath from reading many of the forums)
Educated guess from someone who has personally assembled 80 KoW Dwarf Ironwatch (and has the models on his desk right now) - they're based on the Ironwatch sprue.
Just throwing that out there, I haven't formed an opinion on the models yet, the image is too small.
Would have liked a new sprue, TBH, the Ironwatch sprue has already been copy+pasted twice (for the artillery crew and shieldbreaker sprues), re-using it for a third time is pushing it a bit.
My main concern is that the sprue will only be a 2-dwarf sprue. So, there will not be a decent amount of components on it.
scarletsquig wrote:Educated guess from someone who has personally assembled 80 KoW Dwarf Ironwatch (and has the models on his desk right now) - they're based on the Ironwatch sprue.
I can't tell you how much I hope this isn't the case. I'll wait for a pic, but that would almost certainly be a dealbreaker for me.
I tried zooming into the pic, but couldn't really see a thing. The fact that they are all aiming their weapons in the same direction doesn't bode well.
I have not been overwhelmed by Mantic's sculpts, but I must say that the starter set looks nice. I like really like the bike and artillery gun. I look forward to seeing closeups.
scarletsquig wrote:Educated guess from someone who has personally assembled 80 KoW Dwarf Ironwatch (and has the models on his desk right now) - they're based on the Ironwatch sprue.
Hmm I find this prospect really hilarious actually
I remember when the ironwatch were first shown, people went "What? These guys look on the brink of Sci Fi!"
I really wish the FF could have more dynamic poses
Well.....on the plus side at least the army deals now have pics
Hmm, a green horde supported by a light and fast vehicle against a few highly armoured ultra marine guys supported by a square heavily armoured weapon platform. They really want to show everyone, what this game is meant to be. Why not call it "Assault on Black Beach"
Sorry if I take this set and play that battle of the farm scenario in the back of the book.
These guys are what the doc's ordered. The figures are balls out. I see them, I see a good many thing missing in GW's corperation assclownery, and that Mantic's guys have character, not just Ork #10000000, or something. You could easily play skermish level with the guys with other rules systems.
Yes, the rules have left the station, they arn't coming back. They made that abundantly clear last month on thier forums, and The message was well heard. !@#$ them for that.
BUT thier figures ARE proxy material. Nuff said.
It isn't a hate on them, it isn't a slight. It just... is what it is. Think about it- the price is balls out. The figures are balls out. You can't honestly call them a "GW competator" when they arn't even out of the first 1000 orders, and some snappy dialogue on the BOW. That was fine and dandy, but you saw some of the players in there. There was not, nor will thier be a large deviation from what they know. Alysso was well entrenched into what made GW less fun, thats a fact. That there isn't even any discussion on that point, doesn't even meet the common sense test... As for Jake? yeas, ok. Whatever. Hey there, fella, those days are gone. Thanks for your opinion, but it wasn't really anything that knocked my socks off. I do appreciate the pictures, though. They solidified my opinion that I really like those orc, ork, orx, sporks...
Look at that game. I don't care how many people are how far up on your jock you are FOR WHAT EVER company your squealing about.
GW is friggen tired. They've been all Space Marines, and candy coated unicorns for well on 4-5 years, now. 5th edition was 4th edition Plus.
The we go back to discussion about "Oh.. mantic dug a pretty big hole for themselves... blah blah blah..." Yes, they did, BUT they are actually being up front and putting it out there that they have new guys. Not just regurgitated sets of the same.... for over 10 years. And in numbers.. HOW many came in a box again? For HOW MUCH?
10 for 50.00? I don't see that. especially when they have the alure of the old school RT era orks, and they are made out of plastic. THAT was what made 40K fun. And even with some people crying abotu the days of woe of 2d edition? SO WHAT? 2d edition was fun, if it wasn't we would have threw them all out in the trash years ago, and wouldn't have gotten damn near violent when GW started pulling thier overt hostilities.
I'm looking at 3 sets of the old school Ork set from RT. I see in Mantic a bunch of why we started the GW thing, back in the day. The guys are bringing back the wacky orks. Only thing missing are some of theose Freeboota mobs, and wacky one offs, such as the cybors, the bubblechucka buggies, or the scrapped together weaponry.
They know we are interested, even though some of those D bags over at Mantic are married to thier "Idea" of how they think people should play. Hey, thats on them. They don't want to entertain discourse, thats on them. I still like the figures, I don't really care about jumping up and down on Jake thortons jock about them. To put it frankly, I was on board BEFORE Jake, AND after. so that opinion from him is what it is worth.
My opinion?
I don't care for the rules set. I was at first, until someone over there thought that they were dazzling us with diamonds while pushing !@#$ on a silver platter all the while trying to deflect honest conversation with kool aid talk. I like these guys for what I am going to use them for. Gorkamorka, and some RT.
I've been digging around in my back room and found a bunch of old stuff that got me interested, WITHOUT finecrap. price gouging, flim flam, and a bunch of meally mouthed corperate speak for "We can take a dump, make a mold of it, cast it in finecrap, and call it fine art."
I see some of that sort of talk here from Mantic too, but thats fine. To be expected. With that clunky rules set the only thing you honestly need to answer is this- HOW do you expect a group of 10-13 year old kids to react to this rules set? What is the first thing that people are going to say when they pop a starter box open, and see them for the first time?
CAN I teach a game in 10-20 minutes, and get people in on playing it in 5-15?
I'll go on ahead and give that a NO. Thats just how it is. The rules are looking worse and worse, and the models are pretty good, and I hope they continue getting better. And you know what? I can live with that.
The squats are fine. wouldn't change a thing. The Orks? EVEN BETTER. I want those orks even more then I've ever wanted GW's( aside from RT era) guys.
And this talk about "Using Fantasy Orks to make the Sci FI?" SO WHAT? I used 2 boxes mixed in with a box, and made a 30 man platoon out of them, pluse have more for the loota's, the burna boyz, and some meat left over for future stuff. (Yeah, the stuff is in the closet, right now, but it is still the idea that we are talking about a 20 or so man box, compared to the 10 man box sets that they are doling out to you these days for the same price.)
Kan, is kinda right though- they did spout off at the hole, and promised a Prize Pig in every box, while at the same time- are targeting disappointed GW players, and fully modeling the essence of what made RT fun.
Duncan is right, as well. The guys are so far, so good. Sculpts might have some flaws, but they have even more quarks, and even if that so called penny is supposed to be the bases, I can see these guys getting the slottabase treatment and getting added in with some GW orks for good measure.
Too bad they hit the big red retro button and came up with the idea first.
Anyone know if it's possible to give the Marauders some kind of 2H rifle/gun option or are they pistol and cc weapon all the way?
Well technically the shoulder mounted cannon probably needs two hands but looks like its not going to be modeled that way. No sign of any rifles at all so far
So, the dwarfs dont have CCWs? They are a bunch o cowards with guns? Ironclad weapons have the enough sci-fi look, with nice new bodys i will be pleased. Hope that is not the ironwatch with sci-fi tweaks, i liked the general look of marauders (even dont liking the sprue re-use), if they do the same to the dwarves, they had just lose a costumer...
I like what mantic have done with fantasy dwarfs, re-using sculpts in each product, but that was for fantasy, Those fantasy bodys will not fit sci-fi so well, not without they end up looking like cheap conversions.
Pacific wrote:
Anyone know if it's possible to give the Marauders some kind of 2H rifle/gun option or are they pistol and cc weapon all the way?
There is a Marauder unit called Rifle-Grunts, so I imagine they'll have that option eventually. I wonder if they'll be releasing more models soon, or just focus on core units for each army and release the vehicles, elites, and upgrades later on.
Pacific wrote:
Anyone know if it's possible to give the Marauders some kind of 2H rifle/gun option or are they pistol and cc weapon all the way?
There is a Marauder unit called Rifle-Grunts, so I imagine they'll have that option eventually. I wonder if they'll be releasing more models soon, or just focus on core units for each army and release the vehicles, elites, and upgrades later on.
they should have just used 'Orcs') for a while. It's clear they used their fantasy range as a starting point and then just altered the torso's slightly (extra armour plates, less rags etc) - I'm fine with that & the old school aesthetic. Now after looking at them there are two things that bug me: 1) the paint scheme - a 'muddier' green or even brown would suit them better (that's the first thing I felt when looking at them) & 2) They're all bare foot! I kind of like the fact they're more barabarians who have learned how to use stolen or bashed together tech - that's fine - but bare feet 
Did the Corporation take away their Nike's or Army Surplus boots for being 'bad slaves' and did they just go with that? These seem a little rushed to me - I'll get some to paint up and see if they can look better - but am I going to have to greenstuff boots on them all? I hate shoe shopping 
