There's a 10% code this weekend for the US$ price - thanksgiving2011 code actually, and there's a Corporation army list coming to the newsletter according to Alessio Cavatore:
They're more secretive than GW was until very recently, and the only news we've got is a list of all the things we wanted that we aren't getting.
Plastic Corp troopers? No.
Plastic Resin is plastic and, having been to the launch party, the sculpts are more varied and easily more convertable with more options. Plastic Resin stormtroopers for £15? Hello.
Female Corp troopers? No.
You wanted these - no one else wanted Mantic to go bankrupt.
Plastic vehicles? No.
Plastic Resin is plastic. Other vehicles in resin to offer more choice... fine. Give's Mantic the money to build cheap infantry.
They're even feigning ignorance about the Veermyn.
Gerbils in space... didn't you hear?
It's not the type of plastic that actually provides the primary benefits of plastic, like economies of scale. Hence why they're £15 for 10 instead of £8-10.
...having been to the launch party, the sculpts are more varied and easily more convertable with more options.
Which gets back to the problem of secrecy. They sell internationally and operate out of a webstore, but they still expect people to be within spitting distance of the boss before they'll reveal this sort of stuff.
Female Corp troopers? No.
You wanted these - no one else wanted Mantic to go bankrupt.
An opinon you base on no evidence whatsoever, which is the whole problem. Me, I can't wait until this 19th century bs is left to die in the gutter where it belongs.
We currently have the next 4 months worth of releases, stated in order, by the mantic staff.. beyond that point, Mantic has nothing solid themselves.
Here's the list, copy+pasted straight from Nightsword's post over on WS:
News then:
- Corporation Army List on Friday for those subscribed to the newsletter.
- Journal 5 coming for those subscribed to the newsletter shortly.
- Thanksgiving/Black Friday/Cyber Monday 10% discount code and final shipping dates (check your newsletter for the code).
- Pathfinder volunteer demo teams - people to champion Mantic at shows, stores and retailers by enthusiastically demoing the product. 6 UK Pathfinders being trialled at the moment as the systems are put in place. With Warpath and Christmas, we're not looking at any more until January.
- DKH: Ancient Grudge in January
- Twilight Kin, Goblins and a Forge Father set in February?
- Corporation Badasses in March
- Veermyn are miniature giant space gerbils in space with big space guns fighting on a big space moon made of green cheese... in spaaace. Probably.
They're not GW, they don't operate 18-24 months in advance, it's more like 3-6 months. Also, we currently know what GW are releasing in December and.. that's it.
I'm not sure what else mantic could do to make you like them, besides removing mini previews from their events, something which is genuinely enjoyable for the people who do attend, and I don't think should be stopped just to placate a internet minority that is offended by it.
I personally find the whole Veermyn thing pretty cool... I really have no idea what the hell is going on with this now that Mantic is publically mocking the space-gerbils idea we all had.
In other news:
A number of Kings of War troop boxes are being discontinued in the New Year and we’ve dropped the RRP on the following sets:
- Undead Skeleton Troop
- Undead Revenant Troop
- Elves Spearmen Troop
- Elves Bowmen Troop
- Dwarf Ironclad Troop
All of the above have now had a price reduction of 25%.
It's not the type of plastic that actually provides the primary benefits of plastic, like economies of scale. Hence why they're £15 for 10 instead of £8-10.
... and you can't glue it with plastic cement, another evidence that it is not plastic.
From what I can tell, it is plastic, just spin-cast, high-impact polystyrene, and it's the production process used that prevents poly cement from working... the end result is way too hard and "shiny" for poly cement to work.
Resin plastic is just the trade name mantic use so that their customers don't get confused when plastic glue doesn't work on the models.
Here's another example of spin-cast plastic, that is plastic, but you can't use plastic glue on it:
There's videos on there and quite a lot of info about the product process on that site if anyone's interested. It looks to be very similar to the sort of thing that mantic is doing.
What generally is called plastics are thermoplasts, but there are also duroplasts which generally are called resin. There is a third kind of plasts that generally is called rubber.
Problem is: That is really one big generaliziation people use!
Technically they are all plastics/plasts. They only differ in their atomic structure and by which they are put into one of the three boxes.
Mantics restic is somewhere in between thermoplast and duroplast but more on the thermoplast side. So technically it is plastic. And it is also closer to "GW-plastic" than to "FW-resin".
BTW, there are thousands of variations among the three plast-maingroups. There is actually no such thing as The Plastic or The Resin.
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Ahrg.... folks never get plastics right....
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter whether restic is technically a plastic or not. What matters is whether it has the positive attributes we associate with polystyrene (i.e. "plastic") models.
So what "positive attributes" did you think were missing from the Plastic Resin set you've got and which set was it?
Mantics restic is somewhere in between thermoplast and duroplast but more on the thermoplast side. So technically it is plastic. And it is also closer to "GW-plastic" than to "FW-resin".
QFT. It's a similar material to what Privateer call Plastic too.
Which gets back to the problem of secrecy. They sell internationally and operate out of a webstore, but they still expect people to be within spitting distance of the boss before they'll reveal this sort of stuff.
There is no secrecy. Corporation are 5 months away - you know it's coming. You know you'll get a sneak peak on Christmas Day. You'll get an army list today, which I'm sure will leave us in no doubt about the first kits could be. The early-preview at the shows is a benefit of going to see them at a convention. Much like early demos of console games at E4 or closed preview film screenings.
An opinon you base on no evidence whatsoever, which is the whole problem.
Only what I've read - It's pretty niche, you have to admit.
Me, I can't wait until this 19th century bs is left to die in the gutter where it belongs.
Just as a friendly observation Black Nexus, it helps if you use quotes in your posts, otherwise it looks like someone with some kind of split personality disorder having a conversation with themselves
You're missing the point. It doesn't matter whether restic is technically a plastic or not. What matters is whether it has the positive attributes we associate with polystyrene (i.e. "plastic" models.
It does matter big time. And it has most of the positive attributes.
> OK, it does not melt together when using poly-glue, but using GF9 cyanoglue gives me a good connection and if I really am obsessed with melting there are also glues that do this to restic... (but are a little bit harder to obtain i.e. you need to order/get them in a hobby shop that has glues for motorized models)
> It does not snap as easily as polystyrene and if out of form is easily bent back with the help of cold and hot water.
> And it is cheaper to produce than poly.
Alex, you seem to look for problems where there are non.... in several forums.
Just as a friendly observation Black Nexus, it helps if you use quotes in your posts, otherwise it looks like someone with some kind of split personality disorder having a conversation with themselves
Wouldn't be the first time someone's mentioned split personality to me XD
Looks like the Thanksgiving2011 code has risen to 15% and finished tomorrow.
scarletsquig wrote:Twilight Kin pics are live, plastic/metal hybrids based on the elves. 6 copies of the army deal are on sale this weekend only for £99 before a full release next February... they've had these sculpts knocking around for a while now, so the delay might be due to them planning to replace the metal components with resin plastic to lower the price. But for now, it looks like they've already made a few in metal that they want to shift.
Turned out pretty well I think, I like them a lot more than the regular elves, they sort out the weird spears, improve the heads, and the cloaks add some bulk to the models.
Overall, I think it's because the basic elf models are more suitable for dark elves in the first place, with their barbed, layered armour and shields.
Good colour scheme for a change, too!
Those are shockingly good for Mantic models. I love them.
EDITED: As has been brought to my attention, these are Elysian clones, not Cadian clones.
Here's the pics
If that isn't a GW Elysian proxy, then I've never seen one. Same degree of armor (helmet and breasplate) They even managed to get the traditional downward-sloping-sleeve-over-tube Lasgun barrel end and the Elysian style lasgun body.
I mean this in the best possible way. If I didn't already have an IG army and a couple of other human sci-fi forces, these would be in the running!
In other news...
LordMarcus and Scorpio.au,
I forgot to mention it earlier, but thanks for the heads up about mantic international shipping! I changed the currency and the shipping went down so ordered 100 of the warpath bases for my self and a friend who have old Metal Magic figs. If they work out I'll definitley be spreading the news, as there's probably a fair number of gamers with figs attached to these kind of round integral bottoms that would like to know about these bases.
Eilif wrote:If that isn't a GW cadian proxy, then I've never seen one.
Elysian Guard proxy to be precise Well, at least these Mantic SciFi miniatures don't wear skirts and swords
Spoiler:
Wow, I actually thought of Elysian droptroopers when I first saw them, but I didn't realize they were quite so close! I forsee many Elysian armies in the years to come!
The concept art is nice, but that means little in the end. If the price and quality are right, I'd be very interested. No company out there now makes good generic scifi infantry in plastic. Now, this is Mantic, so I won't hold my breath, but there is real potential here.
Those concepts are extremely 40k'ish! Right down to the laser weaponry which, frankly is a copy. No complaint from me though, I like me some proxie models!
Here's hoping that the boxed sets will be a good bargain. Having to use super glue is already a pain in the ass, if the price isn't enough of a deal it's a no go for me.
These corporation type miniatures might be the best thing mantic has done yet. Given how close they get their final models to their concept art, I'm actually excited about these.
I think the thing I like best is that they're not so "out there" compared to mantic's other products.
- 4 Resin Plastic Kits (probably the 4 different infantry options in the list)
- Metal Commander with ipad-thingy.
- All models will have seperate interchangeable heads and arms.
- There will be a £50 army box as usual, exact number of models unconfirmed, but will include bunch of basic marines, one unit of elites, one unit of heavy weapons. So, all-infantry and likely to offer substantial savings on the usual RRP.
- Pricing on the elite troops (the ones with lots of different extra bitz included in the kit) is confirmed at £15 for 10.
[rampant speculation]
No word on any other pricing, stands to reason that the basic troopers with fewer components will be cheaper than the elites.
Mantic has produced Resin plastics at really low price points before (orc gore riders at £2/model for *big* cavalry), so while I'd put my best guess at £12.50 for 10 on the basic troops, I can't rule out mantic going all-out and hitting the £10 for 10 mark on them.
[/rampant speculation]
Oh, and by the way, those concept sketches are the work of Mike McVey. Anyone who has any knowledge of Studio McVey's releases knows that when it comes to designing sci-fi humans, this guy has had more than a little practice at getting them downright bloody perfect.
Also worth noting at this point that people who have seen the Corporation models at the Warpath open day have said that the models look exactly like the sketches.
Well they failed us with the ORX with having awesome concept art then models that looked no where as good as the concept art...
Considering they are just making exact copies of FW's models, it should be pretty hard to screw these up. They might have been better launching their SciFi system on these and let the hybrid 'fantasy with goggles' be secondary product lines.
I am unsure if Mantic's business model can handle kits that are not dual purpose for both fantasy and sci-fi... Unless they plan to somehow make these medieval humans by swapping the chestplate for a poofy pirate shirt or something.
Those will be great and perfect, as all the pre-warpath products from mantic, they know it is a type of "last chance" for their sci-fi set. What make me mad is the lack of plastic, but we know it is not their fault.
Expect this to be great and cheap. Or else, Mantic will just be diying slowly...
Well it looks like that the idea of an Elysian drop trooper army might become a reality for many people!
Also worth noting at this point that people who have seen the Corporation models at the Warpath open day have said that the models look exactly like the sketches.
Great stuff! Roll on March 2012
Well they failed us with the ORX with having awesome concept art then models that looked no where as good as the concept art...
Ahh Nkelsch I recognised your name from the Waaagh forum
Am I the only person who likes the concept of the Mantic Orx? :(
Thanks for these. There are quite a few I hadn't heard before.
scarletsquig wrote:Compiled list of Corporation rumours:
- All models will have seperate interchangeable heads and arms.
- There will be a £50 army box as usual, exact number of models unconfirmed, but will include bunch of basic marines, one unit of elites, one unit of heavy weapons. So, all-infantry and likely to offer substantial savings on the usual RRP.
Very good news. Mantic does have a good history with making boxes and bundles at good deals
- Pricing on the elite troops (the ones with lots of different extra bitz included in the kit) is confirmed at £15 for 10.
This is not a good thing. that's about $23 USD for 10 figs. By way of comparison, you can get metal guardsmen types form Megaminis or EM4 for those prices. The sculpts are more dated of course, but it's metal!
Sure you might get more options than the cadian kit, but what you're really getting is a slight price break on Guardsmen in exchange for not being able to use them in GW stores or tourneys. This is especially disapointing since whether playing 40k or Warpath, you are going to need a ton of these guys.
[rampant speculation]
No word on any other pricing, stands to reason that the basic troopers with fewer components will be cheaper than the elites.
Mantic has produced Resin plastics at really low price points before (orc gore riders at £2/model for *big* cavalry), so while I'd put my best guess at £12.50 for 10 on the basic troops, I can't rule out mantic going all-out and hitting the £10 for 10 mark on them.
[/rampant speculation]
Really they would have to shoot for the low price to really make them truely attractive to the GW crowd they market most of their stuff towards.
Oh, and by the way, those concept sketches are the work of Mike McVey. Anyone who has any knowledge of Studio McVey's releases knows that when it comes to designing sci-fi humans, this guy has had more than a little practice at getting them downright bloody perfect. Also worth noting at this point that people who have seen the Corporation models at the Warpath open day have said that the models look exactly like the sketches.
This is a good thing. Studio McVey does excellent work, the closer they can get them to McVey's vision the better, IMO.
Is there any word on whether Corporation will eventually see release in plastic when the casters get themselves in order?
If it goes on like this, we will have to wait 4 years for Warpath to have its first original idea and another 4 years until it can be considered an alternative to GW products. Hope Mantic has the money to wait that long. Now compare that to the start of AT-43 with unique high quality products from the start.
I have to go with Polonious on this one. Making GW-compatible products is probably a good strategy for building a company like Mantic. It's a solid way to build a customer base and an income stream.
The real question is if/when (yeah, it might take 4 years) they release something truely original, will it sell or will people just pass it by and wait for more GW-compatible products?
There is a definite chance that they are painting themselves into a corner here.
Polonius wrote:Of course, look what happened to AT-43...
That's my point. Starting with high quality products doesn't guarantee success (although AT-43 WAs successful for a time and maybe too successful for their production facilities). But starting with almost no design and high prices ...
Guess we can write off the first two races as copies of their Fantasy lines barely converted to SciFi. The third race is copy-paste of Elysian Guard, again with no effort of a unique design. Guess we will see a run-of-the-mill bug race next.
Hey kroot, as a costumer that dont believe in Mantic "originality" anymore, i dont see any of those things as bad. And i really want to see the "Space Elves" from Mantic.
Additionally, some bugs who looks like bugs would be awesome...
Polonius wrote:Of course, look what happened to AT-43...
That's my point. Starting with high quality products doesn't guarantee success (although AT-43 WAs successful for a time and maybe too successful for their production facilities). But starting with almost no design and high prices ...
Guess we can write off the first two races as copies of their Fantasy lines barely converted to SciFi. The third race is copy-paste of Elysian Guard, again with no effort of a unique design. Guess we will see a run-of-the-mill bug race next.
I wouldn't say a rumored 1 GBP per standard infantry trooper (equal to a secion - 10 man squad - for 10 pounds) is a high price.
lord marcus wrote:I wouldn't say a rumored 1 GBP per standard infantry trooper (equal to a secion - 10 man squad - for 10 pounds) is a high price.
There is no such rumour. Scarletsquig outright said it was rampant speculation.
Even if it is true, it's an acceptable price at best. $1.50 USD per trooper is getting closer to GW prices, heck it's more than GW prices from when plastic guard were first released. My worry is that since these are plastiresin, the price could be closer to 2 bucks a piece and at that point many folks will just pay a few cents more per fig and go GW.
lord marcus wrote:I wouldn't say a rumored 1 GBP per standard infantry trooper (equal to a secion - 10 man squad - for 10 pounds) is a high price.
There is no such rumour. Scarletsquig outright said it was rampant speculation.
Even if it is true, it's an acceptable price at best. $1.50 USD per trooper is getting closer to GW prices, heck it's more than GW prices from when plastic guard were first released. My worry is that since these are plastiresin, the price could be closer to 2 bucks a piece and at that point many folks will just pay a few cents more per fig and go GW.
Still, it's all speculation for now...
Here in Australia its $6.00 AUD for a space marine. So if i can get them from maelstrom or somewhere with free shipping, then 1.50 is great.
I'm not going to get excited nor bent out of shape for the Corporate Guard until we have the actual product on show. Not Original? Sure, but who cares? Elysians aren't an incredibly original concept either - they're just a more realistic take on the same tropes as the Cadians. Sure the helmets are similar insofar as the look with the visor, but the rest is pretty generic. The weapons (both Elysian and Corp) follow the same general style as the FAMAS or various versions of the G36 with the carry handle. Nothing to get too fussed about.
lord marcus wrote:I wouldn't say a rumored 1 GBP per standard infantry trooper (equal to a secion - 10 man squad - for 10 pounds) is a high price.
There is no such rumour. Scarletsquig outright said it was rampant speculation.
Even if it is true, it's an acceptable price at best. $1.50 USD per trooper is getting closer to GW prices, heck it's more than GW prices from when plastic guard were first released. My worry is that since these are plastiresin, the price could be closer to 2 bucks a piece and at that point many folks will just pay a few cents more per fig and go GW.
Still, it's all speculation for now...
Here in Australia its $6.00 AUD for a space marine. So if i can get them from maelstrom or somewhere with free shipping, then 1.50 is great.
Right now i perfectly understand the new pricing policies of Mantic...
The problem with Elif's thoughts is that although it would possibly be more than GW plastics when they were released, these plastiresin figs have (speculating here) more poses - looking at the concepts - as well as more detail (end speculation)
It seems to be, especially for those in australia wanting a guard army, that these will work wonderfully as an alternative.
Looks like there's going to be quite a few different tiers of price/quality to choose from.
a) Sub-£0.90 Defiance Games/ WGF/ eM4 - Budget #1 priority, but if you personally think they look better than any of the alternatives, then you're going to be *really* happy with them.
b) £1.10/model monopose GW cadians - Good for bulk, ideally need to be mixed with option d or e to work.
c) £1-£1.50/model Mantic - "Somewhere in the middle" pricing. *Needs* the quality to approach forgeworld levels to really succeed. "Somewhere in the middle" sculpt quality will not make them stand out against the other options.
d) £1.80/model GW Plastics - Bit of a weak option, kits are showing their age compared to the newer heavy weapon and command sprues. Price rises have hurt these a lot, I bought my catachan army when the models cost 60p each, and for that price they were awesome.
e) £3+/model Forge world/ Vostroyans/ GW plastic but using command squads for basic troops as much as possible - money no concern, sculpt quality/style everything.
I am personally continuing with my high expectations for the Corp. I want mantic to produce models that are on a par with option e) in terms of sculpt quality, variety of poses, customization, and component count (as a whole, across the 4 different infantry kits that are being released).
I had the same hopes for the forgefathers, and it was the restrictive plastic tooling (to keep the pricing low) that let down an otherwise excellent release. With an all resin-plastic Corp release, they have zero restrictions to take into account, the resin plastic material can even do undercuts!
It all comes down to the quality/ price comparison in the end...
Also, FYI to the posters above - Mantic's "8th race" will be released next year and will apparently be an entirely unique and new Mantic army.
A comment from the Warpath Open day a couple of weeks ago, that I think may have been missed?
“This is all of course setting up Dwarf Kings Hold…In Spaaaaaaace which is planned for Warpath. Corporation Vs ’8th Race’ in the confines of huge asteroids mined out by the Forge Fathers, both in pursuit of the same precious resource. But that is for another day…”
Dwarf King's Hold was excellent fun so am looking forward to this, especially if it is at a similar price!
scarletsquig wrote:
b) £1.10/model monopose GW cadians - Good for bulk, ideally need to be mixed with option d or e to work.
Do you have a link to this? I couldn't find it on GW's website or on eBay. The regular Cadians comes to $4.20 (£3.64) each here in Canada.
d) £1.80/model GW Plastics - Bit of a weak option, kits are showing their age compared to the newer heavy weapon and command sprues. Price rises have hurt these a lot, I bought my catachan army when the models cost 60p each, and for that price they were awesome.
You can still get them for £1.80 each? No wonder GW is trying to price control by geography.
I am personally continuing with my high expectations for the Corp. I want mantic to produce models that are on a par with option e) in terms of sculpt quality, variety of poses, customization, and component count (as a whole, across the 4 different infantry kits that are being released).
I agree. I've always wanted a force of human grunt sci-fi guys. I played Catachans 10 years ago, but I don't think they count.
With an all resin-plastic Corp release, they have zero restrictions to take into account, the resin plastic material can even do undercuts!
That's true. I have some menoth heavy jacks to build and they are things of beauty. The crusader's mace makes you go "how did they do that!?". I hop Mantic really uses the medium to it's full potential on these.
frozenwastes wrote:Do you have a link to this? I couldn't find it on GW's website or on eBay. The regular Cadians comes to $4.20 (£3.64) each here in Canada.
The Ultimate Mega-Armies are limited edition set and ends on the 1st December. Also for a limited time only, get your mega-army for one outstanding price until the 21st December. Don't miss it!
Mantic's Fantasy Mega-armies are best way of starting out with Mantic or expanding an existing collection quickly as they contain massive amounts of plastic figures - complete armies in a box! These sets also contain the 56 page free 2nd edition Kings of War rules in the box, allowing you to get gaming immediately!
Bit confused over the wording of this : so.. which ones of these are no longer available then ?
Dwarf King's Hold was excellent fun so am looking forward to this, especially if it is at a similar price!
Looks like there's more Dwarf King's Hold fun to be had first - they've just put up an expansion for either (or both I guess...) that let's you play more multiplayer games and some more troops choices. Some extra figures and more rooms in the box too.
^ Yep, it includes warband builder rules with points values so you can create your own band of heroes or evil hordes to play in any of the scenarios published so far. They're also adding monsters like werewolves and trolls and characters to create boss fights in the game.
Basically, think space hulk, if it had received an expansion allowing you to use 20+ new unit types like guard and genestealer hybrids and things. Pure awesome.
It's really great what they're doing with this game, it's only been out for a year and already there's 2 expansions!
I like that it's an all-mantic product, with it's own background based in the mantic universe, and it is 100% quality with excellent artwork and minis at a decent price.
Hmm, question for those that have played it: is it appropriate for none-wargamers? My girlfriend is plenty geeky, (plays Skirim, did D&D), but I wonder if this is something that she might enjoy, especially as it's two player.
I bought one of those Mantic's crazy Christmas bags and got
8 Orcs, 16 Dwarves, 40 Skeletons, 14 Zombies and 46 Elves.. all stuffed in my bag not a bad haul at all.
Polonius wrote:Hmm, question for those that have played it: is it appropriate for none-wargamers? My girlfriend is plenty geeky, (plays Skirim, did D&D), but I wonder if this is something that she might enjoy, especially as it's two player.
From watching the BOW play through video it seems like a fun, fast paced game with easy to understand rules.
Hmm, question for those that have played it: is it appropriate for none-wargamers? My girlfriend is plenty geeky, (plays Skirim, did D&D), but I wonder if this is something that she might enjoy, especially as it's two player.
Mine did - she went crazy over the Dwarfs in Dead Rising, so I got the Undead. Rules are very simple and it's actually a great introduction to the hobby, Mantic range and style of game they produce.
Polonius wrote:Hmm, question for those that have played it: is it appropriate for none-wargamers? My girlfriend is plenty geeky, (plays Skirim, did D&D), but I wonder if this is something that she might enjoy, especially as it's two player.
Of any board games around at the moment, I would say DKH is probably one of the best suited to introducing new gamers to the concept of rolling dice. Certainly, the couple of people I tried it with have really enjoyed.
Yeah, basically NPCs come out with various scripts when you walk next to them. One of them is something like, "I used to be an adventurer like you once, before I took an arrow in the knee." Because there are only so many scripts to be repeated, it is amazing how many of the various guards of skyrim have taken an arrow to the knee.
The 'Fus Roo Dah' meme is pretty funny as well.
OT, I got a free Mantic ghoul sprue with the Wargames Illustrated magazine spin-off, Dark Horizons (not sure if this is current? Picked it up from Hobbycraft so it could have been sat on the shelf for months). Nice little sculpt with good detail and posing, I think the UD has to be the stand-out range now for Kings of War and I can completely understand why it has been so popular.
A comment from Jake Thornton's blog, designer of the forthcoming 'Dwarf King's Hold in Space' game:
Its working title is 'Grim Cargo'
I’ve started with the same sort of assumptions as I did for DKH: make a single, standalone game, but build into the framework the possibilities of expanding it to include other races, other environments, and so on. That way, if Ronnie decides not to do another (which would plainly be crazy) then it’s still fine as a game on its own. On the other hand, if/when everyone clamours for more then the “more” has a chance to dovetail properly. Nothing so disappointing as an expansion that feels like a rushed collection of floor sweepings. With that in mind, I’ve been roughing out other races and so on while I do the core rules and the stats for what we’re putting in this initial box.
I have decided to retain the core dice mechanic of the DKH series, but not because I’m being lazy. It’s actually more work to retain it than it is to start again, but I think that there is a value to keeping a “Mantic Style”, as it were. Players use tokens too, though they work very, very differently from DKH.
A sci-fi skirmish is not just a dungeon bash with guns. It’s a fundamentally different process and deserves to be modelled as such.
It will be a Space Hulk rip-off, they even posted a preview story in their free run of Mantic mag about aliens with sharp claws in dark tunnels hidden away in an asteroid turned into a space ship.
They also went on to announce that the Corporation would be red coats in space (how original), that the Asterians would be pixies in space, the Z'zor would be hornets in space, rebels would be freedom fighters in space, Plague would be survival horror in space and the mention of an eight race, also in space. Ugh.
BrookM wrote:It will be a Space Hulk rip-off, they even posted a preview story in their free run of Mantic mag about aliens with sharp claws in dark tunnels hidden away in an asteroid turned into a space ship.
They also went on to announce that the Corporation would be red coats in space (how original), that the Asterians would be pixies in space, the Z'zor would be hornets in space, rebels would be freedom fighters in space, Plague would be survival horror in space and the mention of an eight race, also in space. Ugh.
BrookM, so you're trying to tell me that the concept of troopers travelling down the corridors of a human-built craft being attacked by aliens for Space Hulk was pulled out of the hat entirely by GW? I remember people commenting "Oh look, Aliens." when it was first released. Not in a derogatory sense, but rather is was released on the back of numerous films coming out at that time, it was a good idea and cashed in on a trend.
Dwarf King's Hold is actually a great deal of fun to play. I've used it as an introductory game for people who would never usually touch a dice, yet it has a surprising amount of depth once you figure out its nuances. No doubt it will also be a very competitive price. I agree it's probably not going to set the world on fire with a radically new concept, but then again at least Mantic have always been honest about what they are setting out to achieve.
BrookM wrote:They also went on to announce that the Corporation would be red coats in space (how original),
I don't hate the Corporation because they're unoriginal, I hate them because they're a bunch of unlikeable imbeciles. And yes, I mean that in comparison to 40k. "Kill the witch!" starts looking downright rational when tolerance for said witches and their cranial doorways to hell cause the downfall of multiple galactic civilisations. The Corporation has no such excuse for being evil, stupid, incompetent and yet somehow in control of the majority of humanity.
the Asterians would be pixies in space... Plague would be survival horror in space...
"Pixies IN SPACE" has some mythology behind it in the form of the Greys, so I've got no problems with that. I just don't think they've got any place on the Warpath tabletop.
All I'm reading I see space dwarf kings hold is a copy of space hulk copy of games workshop hate. Hell if gw wanted to they could re release it as a basic stand alone version without the fancy plastics and really shoot themselves in the foot by then selling people 2 squads of terminators and a nice selection of gene stealers for £75. They won't it would loose them so much money for many reasons.
1, people may just want to re live old space hulk glories and would have no interest in buying other gw branded goods so no player of customer retention.
2, as we have seen with the current 40k game people buying multiple copies to break up and sell on eBay for a profit
3, they would technically be saying hey folks we released the super limited edition game again so yours is only a little bit cooler now
All in all it's not going to be good if that ever happens. That said this is not what mantic are doing from what I can see. They are expanding on a successful pre existing successful range of small skirmish type games. It makes sence to do the next one in space to promote your second entry into the gaming world by making small steps into a skirmish smaller and easier to pick up game that can stand alone and will introduce the new plastics to people.
This cooperation or what ever Mumbo jumbo is another of mantics cash cows if the concept sketches are to be believed. Expect to see them on a table near you as nice drop troopers. Good luck to em they need it.
AlexHolker wrote:The Corporation has no such excuse for being evil, stupid, incompetent and yet somehow in control of the majority of humanity.
And yet in our own history, the British Empire was a globally spanning super power and did some pretty horrific things in their colonies that to this day have not been fixed or redressed.
The Corporation as being greed driven rather than being a theocracy is just picking a real world human theme and applying it to a sci-fi setting.
I also don't see much in the way of incompetence in the Corporation fiction so far. They're expansionist and have a great track record in terms of conquering other species they encounter.
I'm sure some of Kiplings poems supporting British Imperialism in the late 19th century could be reworked into excellent Corporation propaganda.
frozenwastes wrote:And yet in our own history, the British Empire was a globally spanning super power and did some pretty horrific things in their colonies that to this day have not been fixed or redressed.
The Corporation as being greed driven rather than being a theocracy is just picking a real world human theme and applying it to a sci-fi setting.
That doesn't make them any less unlikeable.
I also don't see much in the way of incompetence in the Corporation fiction so far. They're expansionist and have a great track record in terms of conquering other species they encounter.
At least three of the seven opposing factions are only an active threat because the Corporation screwed up - the Marauders, uplifted by the Corporation and trained as soldiers before they broke free; the Zz'or, awakened by the Corporation who subsequently failed to contain them; and the Rebs, who organised in direct response to the Corporation's evil, stupid, incompetent control of the majority of humanity.
You are however forgetting the important point. If Mantic make a cheaper and good looking plastic alternative to the Cadian miniature, that also subs in well for Elysian drop-troopers (making an army of them economically feasible for a lot more people), it's not going to matter a damn whether their backstory describes them as riding unicyles to battle and holding a tiny cocktail parasol over their head for protection.
Although personally I think the background is OK, and certainly feasible as how humanity would turn out if we ever make it into space, using our historical exploits on earth as a template. It has a ring of 'Weyland-Yutani' about it, and numerous other sci-fi stories.
Pacific wrote:You are however forgetting the important point. If Mantic make a cheaper and good looking plastic alternative to the Cadian miniature, that also subs in well for Elysian drop-troopers (making an army of them economically feasible for a lot more people), it's not going to matter a damn whether their backstory describes them as riding unicyles to battle and holding a tiny cocktail parasol over their head for protection.
People might not hold bad fluff against good models, but that doesn't stop it being bad fluff.
Although personally I think the background is OK, and certainly feasible as how humanity would turn out if we ever make it into space, using our historical exploits on earth as a template. It has a ring of 'Weyland-Yutani' about it, and numerous other sci-fi stories.
Yes, but their behaviour (profit before all else) is one of the keystones to the plot in the first two films.
I think a lot of sci-fi stuff over the last 30 years or so has tapped into the public perception of fear and uneasiness concerning large corporations, in that sense what Mantic is doing here is hardly new (although that in itself I don't think is necessarily a bad thing).
Just out of interest, do you think it's bad fluff because in your view it is unrealistic, or because you find it uninspired/lacking originality?
Corporation background is basically identical to the Alliance from Firefly (including the "we created the enemy through our own incompetence" thing).
Same goes for Rebels and the Plague, loosely speaking.
And I've always liked Firefly, so I don't see a problem with that. Warpath is not an amazing and original sci-fi setting (and certainly feels a little too empty at the moment, without stuff like maps, timelines and descriptions of other aliens/ artwork to flesh it out), but unless mantic gets big enough to be able to afford the luxury of a staff writer/ artist that's not going to happen. It's better than what we have for KoW at the moment.
GW background is largely ripped from human history and pop culture, even the stuff that seems unique like the grimdark and chaos gods are largely copy+paste from Moorcock.
Wargames companies are often pretty bad at making a compelling setting. The GW setting only works due to decades of developing a rough idea by some very talented people.
I think AT-43 is the only game I've come across where the background immediately struck me as fantastic high-concept sci-fi from the start (basically, it deals with humans on earth having obtained immortality through advanced technology and working to prevent the eventual heat death of the universe to make that immortality permanent).
Pacific wrote:Just out of interest, do you think it's bad fluff because in your view it is unrealistic, or because you find it uninspired/lacking originality?
I think it's bad fluff because I find it uninspiring. In contrast with the initial rumours, it reads like an argument why you shouldn't want to play the army.
Hm, that is intriguing to me. The corporation made me think about playing IG for the first time on my life. So mfor me, they are Inspiring (it was the first time in a long time that i cogitated to use the "regular humans" in a game).
I'm another one that totally got sucked in by the corporation background fiction.
I also like that they don't sugar coat it and present them as good from their own point of view. There are tons of potential customers who like the bad guys and don't need their bad guys to really be good guys if you just put them in the right light.
Before warpath, mantic's fluff was....well no one ever talked about it! With the Corp, people are actually looking at the backstory now whether they like it or hate it!
Interesting post on Jake Thornton's blog regarding the Corporation release.
What’s that on your desk over there, Jake?
Well, I just got back from Mantic Central and have managed to get my paws on some of the first of the Corporation figures for Warpath. Now I only got them on the specific understanding that I wouldn’t be showing them to you guys yet (‘cos Ronnie knows I like to share these things), but have a look at this concept art.
The models are fairly faithful renditions of this art. Obviously there are some detail differences of pouches, grenades and other bits of kit between models, but this is the basic armour they’re in and equipment they’re carrying. Very nicely rendered it is too. The anatomy is more realistically proportioned than GW figures, which is good or bad depending on your personal preference. I rather like it, myself, even though I’ve been looking at GW figures for so many years that they don’t really look as strange as they are – at least, not until you look at any humans
And the general is really cool. Even if he can’t get a signal on his mobile, he looks very much the part. Saw the greeen for this guy and he is really well done. I’m not very drawn to Warpath as a game, but I do like these figures and will be getting some more when they become more available. I have other plans for them.
My thoughts on this:
"The models are fairly faithful renditions of this art" Wonderful, Elysian drop-trooper army here I come
" I have other plans for them." Another indication that Jake is making the 'Dwarf King's Hold - in space' game.
Apparently the models are going to be revealed officially on Christmas day.
BrookM wrote:It will be a Space Hulk rip-off, they even posted a preview story in their free run of Mantic mag about aliens with sharp claws in dark tunnels hidden away in an asteroid turned into a space ship.
They also went on to announce that the Corporation would be red coats in space (how original), that the Asterians would be pixies in space, the Z'zor would be hornets in space, rebels would be freedom fighters in space, Plague would be survival horror in space and the mention of an eight race, also in space. Ugh.
If they rip off the feel of Aliens (which is what Space Hulk was, is and shall ever be) then great!
Pacific wrote:You are however forgetting the important point. If Mantic make a cheaper and good looking plastic alternative to the Cadian miniature, that also subs in well for Elysian drop-troopers (making an army of them economically feasible for a lot more people), it's not going to matter a damn whether their backstory describes them as riding unicyles to battle and holding a tiny cocktail parasol over their head for protection.
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Ahrg.... folks never get plastics right....
You say that...
What generally is called plastics are thermoplasts, but there are also duroplasts which generally are called resin. There is a third kind of plasts that generally is called rubber.
...and then you use the German terms instead of the English.
For the record, the categories are 'thermoplastic', 'thermoset' (archaically, 'thermosetting plastic') and 'elastomer' (informally, 'rubber') respectively, with duroplast referring to the particular fibre-reinforced plastic used in ye mighty Trabant.
Kroothawk wrote:... and you can't glue it with plastic cement, another evidence that it is not plastic.
Oh god, my blood pressure.
This is what you get when you propogate this "it's halfway between resin and plastic" malarky instead of coming straight out and stating what type of plastic it is, how its properties compare to vanilla PS and which solvents can be used to weld it now that 'plastic cement' is no longer up to the task.
On a positive note, Corporate with the cellphone looks ace.
This is what you get when you propogate this "it's halfway between resin and plastic" malarky instead of coming straight out and stating what type of plastic it is, how its properties compare to vanilla PS and which solvents can be used to weld it now that 'plastic cement' is no longer up to the task.
Mantic was concerned that it would confuse consumers if they called it plastic, and they'd get complaints from people wondering why their glue doesn't work.
They have a point too.. remember the frothing internet nerd rage that happened when the PP plastics came out and were not "GW-style hard plastic sprues"?
Fact is, if they'd called it "plastic", this thread would be 5 pages longer with the internet masses raging about how Mantic is "lying", "marketing an inferior product as a superior one", "hurr durr Citadel PhailCo$t all over again".
A Kvlt Ghost wrote:Huh, cheers for that plastic post, that's really interesting. Didn't know any of that.
The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Let me see: Dwarf King Hold in Spaaaace, with corporation hired guns fighting Zorr or plague?
What the hell is there to not like? Lack of GW seal on the corner of the box?
Gonna go out on a limb here and guess "lack of miniatures that don't look like malproportioned gangly turds" unless there are huge changes afoot
I actually think a lot of the Mantic miniatures look great, I have some of their undead, orx and Forge Fathers and both the sculpting detail and quality are on a parity with what GW produces. The design is a subjective thing, which you will either like or not. The price difference however is not arguable
But it is testament to GW (and this is a general comment, not related to you A Kvlt Ghost) that after years of saying "we make the best miniatures on the planet" that people just believe it without examining the evidence first hand. The Corvus Belli range for Infinity I think is putting out far more detailed and interesting looking sculpts than anything GW is doing at the moment for instance.
GW's "heroic" miniatures with their gigantic hands and huge heads have also damaged people's perceptions to the point that they look at something that is actually more realistically proportioned and call it "malproportioned."
The proportions end up looking wrong to them because they're used to unrealistic proportions and when they see one closer to real life, it rubs them the wrong way.
Those concepts are getting really interesting, but after seeing other Mantic models, i would wait for the actual minis, if they are close enough to these sketches, then they'll be really great models
So far if they've released concept art, the finished product has been pretty bang on for it. The Forgefather "stormrage veterans" concept art and the miniatures are very close. It's the Steel Warriors who are disappointing. At least with Corp they won't have any "easy option" and will have to go for the real deal.
Kroothawk wrote:... and you can't glue it with plastic cement, another evidence that it is not plastic.
Oh god, my blood pressure.
This is what you get when you propogate this "it's halfway between resin and plastic" malarky instead of coming straight out and stating what type of plastic it is, how its properties compare to vanilla PS and which solvents can be used to weld it now that 'plastic cement' is no longer up to the task.
Not going to take sides in this one, but it is notable that there are injection molded plastics that look, feel and paint up like the plastics used by GW and other model kit companies but cannot be glued with typical plastic solvent glues.
Remember the Warzone plastic Imperial and Bauhaus troops that came with the box set, and are now avaialble from Prince August?
Looked like styrene, cut like hard styrene (slightly harder than GW plastic), but you have to use super glue to hold them together.
frozenwastes wrote: There are tons of potential customers who like the bad guys and don't need their bad guys to really be good guys if you just put them in the right light.
Me, right here. As a matter of fact its nice to see a bad guy that isnt some sort of rehashed fantasy bad guy, like DE, Orks, Chaos, etc.
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Actually quite some english books use the German words... it seems they get more and more interchangable.
Oh, I've seen it used as synonym for thermoset – and for composites incorporating thermosets, and as a brandname for random products incorporating thermosets, and.... It has a formal definition in English and trying to shoehorn in others is sloppy and confusing – just like Mantic's use of 'resin plastic'. (Similarly, I suppose I should add that 'thermosetting plastic' should be avoided as it's a) old-fashioned and b) confusable with 'thermosetting polymer' which has an IUPAC definition as pre-cure thermoset.)
scarletsquig wrote:Mantic was concerned that it would confuse consumers if they called it plastic, and they'd get complaints from people wondering why their glue doesn't work.
They have a point too.. remember the frothing internet nerd rage that happened when the PP plastics came out and were not "GW-style hard plastic sprues"?
Fact is, if they'd called it "plastic", this thread would be 5 pages longer with the internet masses raging about how Mantic is "lying", "marketing an inferior product as a superior one", "hurr durr Citadel PhailCo$t all over again".
Tell me again how well actually lying is working out for them? People got over it with PP, they'll get over it with Mantic if treated like adults. Besides, 'resin' has certain negative connotations in the little wardollies market; why associate your product with it unless you have to?
Heh, they actually look good in this set of sketches. Partly it's the increased detail, partly it's the poses, partly it's the helmets – but mostly it's because I've realised the rifles don't look half so bloody toy-like once you chop out the silly ribbed section behind the muzzle. Plus suddenly the handle placement makes sense.
Kroothawk wrote:Great, Elysians now also come with Pigiron helmets
They do not look like they were chiselled out of playdough by my niece!
That concept art has me truly excited. One thing I've learned from playing Privateer's games though, is that the artwork can set you up for disappointment when you see the actual models.
I won't preorder them. I'm going to wait until people get them and start posting painted pictures of their stuff.
Da Boss wrote:So far if they've released concept art, the finished product has been pretty bang on for it. The Forgefather "stormrage veterans" concept art and the miniatures are very close. It's the Steel Warriors who are disappointing. At least with Corp they won't have any "easy option" and will have to go for the real deal.
Mantic always seemed to follow very close their concept art. It was that way with dwarfs, them with undead and orcs. Even the stormrage veterans are close to it. The only moment they dont followed this was in the "regular troopers" of orx and FF, but even orx got a very close feel.
That is why i believe in Mantic again this time: they know they must do this perfect... or else...
@Construct
You forgot one important thing about languages: Languages are constantly evolving and what might have been wrong yesterday may be right now and vica versa.
These won't be going up for pre-order until we've seen the models (on december 25th, for newsletter subscribers only, but naturally the internet will repost them).
As for the comment that calling them "plastic resin" is an example of the horrible evil MantiCorp dishing out evil evil lies to deliberately mislead their customers... if you truly believe that, then can we at least agree that:
a) Mantic would be considered lying whichever option they take - call them plastic and the masses will moan because they are not on sprues and need superglue unlike "real" plastic, call them resin plastic and the tiny minority of the wargaming population with an deep and in-depth knowledge of plastic manufacturing will not be happy.
b) Considering the above, it's better that mantic go ahead and irritate the minority who do have a clue rather than the majority who don't.
c) "Plastic Resin" as a non-accurate trade name is nowhere near as horrible as "Citadel Finecast", especially when taking into account the IRL quality of both materials.
The term has been around for a year now and this is the first time I've seen the internet kicking up a fuss about it.
Another thing to remember is the technical definitions of the words.
Plastic resin is a real thing. It's a hydrocarbon polymer formed under a heat process.
It's actually probably more accurate than just calling it plastic. Not as accurate as calling it by a polymer name, but still accurate.
I'm willing to bet that if the stuff was identified by a chemist from the Society of Plastics Industry would go "This is a petroleum distillate based resin plastic. Specifically, a plastic of Resin Idenficiation Code 3V," as I believe it's a PVC based polymer.
New models come out and people comment on the material in which the models are cast.
Prices are announced and people comment on them and how they compare to others in the industry and how Mantic is trying to fit in this niche market.
Concept are is posted and people talk about how much the models will or will not look like the art.
Looks all on topic to me. Commenting and reacting to the news that's posted.
Seems to me that the only off topic post was the one complaining about off topic posts.
Now to stay on topic:
I was planning on grabbing Fate of the Forge Star, but the Corporation concept are is making want to wait and see those models and then put that hobby money towards them. Also, the Pandora thing is really exciting. Hopefully it won't take till the third release to have warbands and a points system like it did for Dwarf Kings Hold. I'm also really looking forward to sci-fi dungeon tiles that will come with it.
That's an utterly ridiculous suggestion, worthy only of mockery and derision. No serious collector or gamer would tolerate such a bastardisation of the language, a compound abortion of a word. Hang your head in shame sir.
Those look really good. Better than I expected, really. I hope the standard troopers have some more action poses, though. That one guy is just standing there with his gun. I hope they have pics of a full painted up squad soon.
I think it is safe to say that Mantic have surpassed themselves after the mixed opinion on the first two Warpath ranges. What impressed me most was the level of detail the faces have. Overall the detail is very high, so Well done Mantic!
They should stop doing plastic and concentrate on restic. ;-) Much better results. I like those troopers a lot so far. With enough action poses they should be mighty nice.
These aren't bad at all. I'm very tempted to pick up the £150 army deal. I guess we'll see if the offer is still up in 2 weeks, when I can manage to swing £150 from my pay.
The figures are not bad, especially the "Hero" figure with the sword. However, I donät think these are particularly better than what GW has on offer, the walking guy looks somehow awkward, and the other guys simply look ok.
I've given up hope that Mantic will (at least any time soon) offer a mass infantry wargame that rivals the current market leader, and this latest offering hasn't dented that stance one littel bit.
I don't think they're especially better than GW per se. They're quite decent, though. Some are on a par (the officer and the binoc guy) - and at a fraction over £1 a figure for the big deal, post free, I can certainly dig it! These are certainly better than the Orx and the Forgefathers, both of which I was a critic of.
I've got no illusions that Warpath will anything 40k, but I've always loved me some good-quality human sci-fi troopers. The fact that almost all ranges of human sci-fi troopers can be slotted in as IG just makes things even better! (hey, maybe I should paint my metal Warzone guys!)
Not going to judge before i see the actual plastics. However if the plastic do turn out as GREAT as what we are seen right now,
from an unbiased point of view compared to GW plastic cadians.
- way better proportion
- better aesthetic design ( subjective )
- better sculpt ( the clothing part is O.M.G well its as if im looking at a FW sculpt TBH )
con- I know im going to spend more money creating my Aliens USCM
pro- They look almost identical to USCM "Rogue"
Also, who wants to buy my Cadians gunline army? wont need them if i get these >:'D
No plastic. Those are going to be resin-plastic. And if they become plastic, if the past is anything to use as a reference, they will be quite inferior to the restics. One can hope though that they will be able to produce plastics that are on par e.g. with their undead. I like those models better then the Cadians so far.
I was impressed. I think that they are an excellent marriage of reasonable price and decent quality. I dunno that I would shell out for a big army of them, but if I wanted human sci fi troopers, they'd be one of my first ports of call.
Hm, I think I shall order the ultimate deal.. Those models are pretty amazing, and I can use them as an army for my inquisitor that looks very different from the cadians
I wouldn't order any deals whatsoever right now until I see painted pictures and sprues. What there is is nice, but I'll have to see some more photos before I spend a penny.
That's an utterly ridiculous suggestion, worthy only of mockery and derision. No serious collector or gamer would tolerate such a bastardisation of the language, a compound abortion of a word. Hang your head in shame sir.
Clearly it should be called RESIC!
Doesn't matter what the miniatures are made of until they fix the wonky rules.
Liking what I see! They look visually impressive and have the best price tag over most other companies.
Like most people I will wait to see all the variations of the models before I make a purchase as I need to be confident that they all look as good as the ones shown.
That's an utterly ridiculous suggestion, worthy only of mockery and derision. No serious collector or gamer would tolerate such a bastardisation of the language, a compound abortion of a word. Hang your head in shame sir.
Clearly it should be called RESIC!
Doesn't matter what the miniatures are made of until they fix the wonky rules.
It dont matter the wonky rules, i want them for 40k
Those are great, and i will surely pick some, IMHO, they are a lot better than cadians, with armours that look sci-fi, true scale and great sculpts. The price os just a plus...
Another nail in the GW coffin. These minis look the buisness. I'll buy them to spite GW Recently, I've been anti-GW on my threads, but after buying their stuff for 20+ years, I've thron in the towel. The last straw was when I worked out how many points a beastman battlaion was giving you for your cash. Total rip-off. Now I've decided to buy only from other companies = payback time!
chris_valera wrote:Oh wow, these are excellent. I'll keep them in mind for sure, although I'd want to see pictures of full squads and such before I buy in.
Same here!
Can't commit until I see all of the finished product, but I'm really liking what I see so far.
I rather hope that, when stood next to a generic Tac squad mook, these guys look sufficiently small. Its my big beef with the GW guard line. Huge proportions that don't quite look right next to the supposedly gigantic by comparion Marines.
Also, damn good models. They look to have significantly better proportions than the IG cadians or catachan.
Slackermagee wrote:I rather hope that, when stood next to a generic Tac squad mook, these guys look sufficiently small. Its my big beef with the GW guard line. Huge proportions that don't quite look right next to the supposedly gigantic by comparion Marines.
Also, damn good models. They look to have significantly better proportions than the IG cadians or catachan.
No, that's a bad idea. The various race lines pretty much just go with their own lines (if they're lucky). Space Marines are largely the same size today as 20 years ago (terminators excepted). It's in the fluff, novels, etc where they've grown about 4 feet. Shrinking down the rest of the range(s) to fit in with SM models would be a bad idea. Sure, IG don't need to be oversized Rambo catachans, but even those (terrible) figures can fit into a context alongside the rest of the IG range - think of an army of huge Maori warriors compared to an army of weedy Brits.
Those look fantastic. Look like the concept art. Look scifi not just fantasy with goggles. I would be excited if I was a human army collector.
Here is to hoping that some of this scifi focus will eventually be done on the green skin armies. Until then I am glad there are other mini companies like kromlech.
These are awesome. £1/model for the army deals is a very good price too (especially considering that includes veterans, rangers, heavy weapons and a metal general).
First two armies are almost-recasts of Fantasy miniatures. These are almost-recasts of resin Elysians. Now waiting for the almost-recasts of the Praetorians. Did Mantic ever have one original idea? At least one?
Kroothawk wrote:First two armies are almost-recasts of Fantasy miniatures. These are almost-recasts of resin Elysians. Now waiting for the almost-recasts of the Praetorians. Did Mantic ever have one original idea? At least one?
Until the day that GW sues JR Tolkiens and wins, I dont think thats a fair statement at all :'D
Kroothawk wrote:First two armies are almost-recasts of Fantasy miniatures. These are almost-recasts of resin Elysians. Now waiting for the almost-recasts of the Praetorians. Did Mantic ever have one original idea? At least one?
How are these recasts of elysians? I agree the appearance is similar, but not close to identical.
I think that the models are significantly different to Elysians and are simply a fairly common representation of what your generic sci-fi/future troopers would look like. Dang Mantic for their unwillingness to show us proper pics! I refuse to buy some until I can see the full squad in all it's glory!
Really something wrong with the eyes if the Corporation is a straight Elysian copy. I have an Elysian army and they look nothing like these Mantic models.
Right now I'm more curious about the Corporation vehicles.
Kroothawk wrote:First two armies are almost-recasts of Fantasy miniatures. These are almost-recasts of resin Elysians. Now waiting for the almost-recasts of the Praetorians. Did Mantic ever have one original idea? At least one?
I would say they are more of a copy of a generic future-soldier idea than an exact copy of what they have done with the Elysians. From both the artwork and the models we have seen so far as well, they look more heavily armoured and better equipped than the Elysian soldiers.
But at least every race that comes along has it's own concept of design, and I think that includes the KoW stuff as well. The elves, orcs (and maraurders) forgefathers, I think are all different concepts of the basic idea of things by GW. In fact, looking at some of the negative points people have made about them, if they wanted to simply steal sales from GW they could have made them look more like those models.
Helmet with visor? Check.
Chest armour with shoulder pads? Check.
Elbow armour? Check.
Knee armour? Only Elysians.
Not sure what you mean with lighter armour.
Ah, I see, the upper grip of the weapon is shorter
Kroothawk wrote:Helmet with visor? Check. Chest armour with shoulder pads? Check. Elbow armour? Check. Knee armour? Only Elysians.
With due respect, that's a very odd checklist, since there are differences, and the both of them look very similar to real tactical gear. If they look alike, it's because they both ape reality. As demonstrated below, each of the elements you list is a component found in current armor solutions; That said, there is at least one rather noticeable difference ...
Kroothawk wrote:Not sure what you mean with lighter armour.
Note that the Elysian is wearing a "breastplate" style of chest armor, that does not appear to cover his lower abdomen (strong enough for a man, cut for a woman, perhaps?), while the Corporation troopers wear armor that appears to consist of a breastplate and several segmented sections that extend over the lower abdomen.
Beyond that, one would note the corporation troopers appear to be wearing heavy "gauntlet" style hand guards, and have a higher neckline (which may be a gorget, as observed above, I can't tell if it's armor or the uniform cut).
Multiple people who personally own FW Elysian armies > Kroothawk's usual anti-Mantic rambling.
It's refreshing to see that, with this release, Kroothawk is having to drag up the old chestnut of "hurr mantic suck they copy GW" because he can't find any faults with the actual models.
I can't wait for Mantic to release painted models with a camo scheme just so I can listen to him yell and bawl about how GW invented camouflage and Mantic stole it from them.
And to think, Mantic is British, not Polish. I kid, I kid.
I do hope that these models will not be painted in khaki + green schemes.
The only thing I don't like about the Corporation design is the nailed on plates on the boots and chest armour, seems a bit out of place, but easily remedied with a little help from comrade knife and comrade sandpaper.
Buzzsaw wrote:With due respect, that's a very odd checklist, since there are differences, and the both of them look very similar to real tactical gear. If they look alike, it's because they both ape reality.
As demonstrated below, each of the elements you list is a component found in current armor solutions;
Actually, the chest armour of both is not mimicking anything, because they only protect the chest (or in the Mantic case, also the belly from the front only!). Modern body armour covers the full torso front and back for practical reasons (and no ellbow and kneecap armour), even if it looks less cool. The helmet with the big extermal visor also doesn't mimick anything in modern armies.
The neck piece looks the same on both esp when cast in resin, even if the Elysian seems to represent cloth.
scarletsquig wrote:Multiple people who personally own FW Elysian armies > Kroothawk's usual anti-Mantic rambling.
It's refreshing to see that, with this release, Kroothawk is having to drag up the old chestnut of "hurr mantic suck they copy GW" because he can't find any faults with the actual models.
I can't wait for Mantic to release painted models with a camo scheme just so I can listen to him yell and bawl about how GW invented camouflage and Mantic stole it from them.
Don't make yourself ridiculous calling me a blind GW fanboy. I don't post all the non-GW alternatives, because I want them to fail. I also want Mantic to become a serious alternative to GW products, but they should at least try and not throw the chance away for no reason at all.
Granted, these are the first genuine SciFi models Mantic produces, so I give them credit for that.
But these and also the Elysians look too much like unrealistic standard SciFi troopers from China and Russia for my taste, a bit disappointing given that the concept is by McVey. But the officer is okay.
BrookM wrote:And to think, Mantic is British, not Polish. I kid, I kid.
Wait ... Poland and England aren't the same place ...?
Kroothawk wrote: Actually, the chest armour of both is not mimicking anything, because they only protect the chest (or in the Mantic case, also the belly from the front only!). Modern body armour covers the full torso front and back for practical reasons (and no ellbow and kneecap armour), even if it looks less cool. The helmet with the big extermal visor also doesn't mimick anything in modern armies.
Personally, if I were a grunt, I would prefer the MANTIC armor over the Forgeworld design ... gut shots are not my favorite way to die.
Kazwulf wrote:Personally, if I were a grunt, I would prefer the MANTIC armor over the Forgeworld design ... gut shots are not my favorite way to die.
So kidney shots (or gut shots from the side or back) are okay? I would prefer modern body armour.
(Guess we found an explanation why Elysians always lose in IA books )
Kroothawk wrote:Don't make yourself ridiculous calling me a blind GW fanboy.
Sry, you are acting exatc like that... your check list included everything we see on regular sci-fi trooper. The fact somewhere after it you start to condractict yourself (showing how GW dont created the whole "elysian concept") just worsen it.
But just for curiosity, where you got those russian miniatures? I can see a great opportunity for true scale marines with those bodies, depending on the price
Duncan_Idaho wrote:You forgot one important thing about languages: Languages are constantly evolving and what might have been wrong yesterday may be right now and vica versa.
Yeah...I remember trying that excuse in high school English. Didn't work then either.
frozenwastes wrote:I'm willing to bet that if the stuff was identified by a chemist from the Society of Plastics Industry would go "This is a petroleum distillate based resin plastic. Specifically, a plastic of Resin Idenficiation Code 3V," as I believe it's a PVC based polymer.
'Plastic-resin' is not a resin. Mantic have said that it is not a resin. If it is indeed PVC – and I would be interested to hear of official confirmation – then five minutes with Wikipedia will confirm that it is not a resin.
scarletsquig wrote:As for the comment that calling them "plastic resin" is an example of the horrible evil MantiCorp dishing out evil evil lies to deliberately mislead their customers... if you truly believe that, then can we at least agree that:
Aw, man. You were the only one to actually argue against my claim calling their product 'resin plastic' was doing Mantic more harm than good and you had to ruin it by throwing in such a clumsy strawman?
BrookM wrote:Corporation pre-order deals are now up, no vehicles included with these, just men with energy swords, heat guns and drop packs.
I can't help but feel disappointed. They're damn close to the concept art, true, but there's the heroic-scale distortion, the slight stiffness to the poses and the rifles are two-dimensional with crooked lines. Plus the tripod on the big gun is backwards.
Duncan_Idaho wrote:I do have a huge Elysian army and the Elysians look still quite different. Elysians generally are lighter armored and weapons are all carry-aways.
Do you mean 'bullpups'? Hmm, do the Corporation rifles even have a removable power cell?
__________
I don't think the Corporation are copies of the Elysians per se, but they were certainly a major design influence.
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The Dwarf Wolf wrote:Sry, you are acting exatc like that... your check list included everything we see on regular sci-fi trooper.
I thought it was clear Kroothawk was referring to the style of those components, not their presence. Why is everyone posting obviously unrelated 'counter-examples'?
School-english is no match for real English as many german folks have too learn the hard way when going to UK or USA .
One of my teachers way back in school commented that I am incapable of good English. Turned out that he was absolutly wrong and that he was the one that had problems with real-life English. I now make quite a good living working as translator. And I actually grew up in some US Army Barracks from early age on. Also, some folks become teachers that really shouldn`t.... (e.g. mixing up Turkey with a turkey all the time...).
So... don´t relly too much on what school teaches you...
@carry-aways
Even their heavier weapons are designed to be extremly lightweight and foldable to be carried away easily.
But these and also the Elysians look too much like unrealistic standard SciFi troopers from China and Russia for my taste, a bit disappointing given that the concept is by McVey. But the officer is okay.
As much as I like you Kroothawk, here you are absolutly wrong.
They are rather close to real special-ops/parachute gear. And already during the Yugoslavian War (which i experienced first hand working for the Red Cross) there were guys having similar gear. Todays gear is even closer to this. There are some extras that make them look cooler, but all-in-all they are quite close.
frozenwastes wrote:I'm willing to bet that if the stuff was identified by a chemist from the Society of Plastics Industry would go "This is a petroleum distillate based resin plastic. Specifically, a plastic of Resin Idenficiation Code 3V," as I believe it's a PVC based polymer.
'Plastic-resin' is not a resin. Mantic have said that it is not a resin. If it is indeed PVC – and I would be interested to hear of official confirmation – then five minutes with Wikipedia will confirm that it is not a resin.
You need to revisit your studies of plastic science. What hobbyists call resins and what chemists call resins are two different things. If you tested mantic's pvc based plastics, you'd find they conform to the Society of Plastics Resin Identification Code 3V.
You need to abandon the use of hobby terms for resin/plastic/hard plastic etc and see that hobbyists have been misusing terms for decades. Resin is the liquid form that reacts to form a polymer. To call hobby urethane based plastic casts "resin" has been wrong for decades. The liquid that went into it was a resin, the final piece is a urethane based polymer. Similarly, PVC Resin is a liquid that goes into the process of making PVC plastic, but the final piece is no longer the liquid resin, but PVC polymer (PRI Code 3V).
All Mantic has done in this case is try to explain things to the people who have inherited using the terms wrong for decades. Their non-styrene based plastics are indeed plastics, specifically a PVC polymer that was made using a liquid PVC resin. Likely, the resin was mixed in prior to delivery to the casters at which stage it was likely used as a thermoplastic and heated and poured/injected into the moulds.
Calling it "plastic resin" is just a term they can use to help people who don't know what the words mean to understand it is different than the styrene based plastics their other plastic products are made of. It is indeed a resin based polymer with a RIC, so they're not in any way actually inaccurate except that they are making the same error as everyone else-- referring to a polymer as a resin after the resin reaction has already occurred.
So anyone getting their panties in a not over Mantic's use of "plastic resin" should just relax and realize that every hobby company since the 60s that has called their produce "resin" has been wrong too. Resin is a component in the forming of a polymer, not the final polymer.
My point is that people are actually giving Mantic grief over a term when hobbyists have been using the wrong terms for decades. There's simply no leg to stand on.
If I were going to plan on buying that IG army I've always wanted, I think I'd save up for real Elysians. I'm not trying to detract from what Mantic is doing: unlike (IMO) their squats and orks, these are very nice looking so far -- relative to the price.
Exactly, I know its a cliche but dropping 4-500 on FW Elysians isn't something I can do, despite wanting to as its money that would otherwise go towards a new car!
I'm knee-deep in on-going projects. I tell myself that if I'm serious about a new army i will save my money while painting what I have. By the time I finished what's on my plate, if I cut back on other fluff spending, I have no doubt that I could easily afford a decent FW army.
Buzzsaw wrote:With due respect, that's a very odd checklist, since there are differences, and the both of them look very similar to real tactical gear. If they look alike, it's because they both ape reality.
As demonstrated below, each of the elements you list is a component found in current armor solutions;
Actually, the chest armour of both is not mimicking anything, because they only protect the chest (or in the Mantic case, also the belly from the front only!). Modern body armour covers the full torso front and back for practical reasons (and no ellbow and kneecap armour), even if it looks less cool. The helmet with the big extermal visor also doesn't mimick anything in modern armies.
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're just wrong. Or, perhaps better, your rebuttal is a non-sequitur; you say "The helmet with the big extermal visor also doesn't mimick anything in modern armies", which would be useful if I had mentioned military, rather then tactical gear. Tactical gear also includes police gear... you can tell the police personnel in the prior post by the inconspicuous word "police" written on the uniforms.
Since the objection seems persnickety, I suppose it's only fair to point out that, yeah, some tactical law enforcement gear does, in fact, feature a "big extermal[sic] visor";
Recognizing that, the complaint of "no ellbow and kneecap armour" is seen as baseless when one remembers that tactical law enforcement units sometimes use elbow (and shoulder) pads,
As well as knee pads,
I have no idea what "the chest armour of both is not mimicking anything, because they only protect the chest" is even a reference to, as the only picture I have seen of one of these figures that shows any of the back clearly shows that the back is protected. It's incredibly reminiscent of existing bullet-proof vests...
Kroothawk wrote:So kidney shots (or gut shots from the side or back) are okay?
I would prefer modern body armour.
You're conflating some modern body armor with all modern body armor.
If you want to invest in the notion that these figures are bad, it's your opinoin, go right ahead. But to claim "these and also the Elysians look too much like unrealistic standard SciFi troopers", when, as I have shown, they bear striking similarities to currently existing gear (thus, by definition, being real and therefore incapable of passing the "unrealistic" test) is just... unsupportable.
My main issue is that I'm moving farther and farther away from high model count games. I love it when my models feel useful valuable on the table top and don't really want to play a game where there are 200+ miniatures on the table that all hardly matter except as part of larger units. It's a personal preference thing.
I'm VERY excited about Pandora (Dwarf King's Hold in SPAAACE!) because I like the idea of small squads of Corporation marines trying to clear out vermin and monsters from a asteroid mining facility.
frozenwastes wrote:My main issue is that I'm moving farther and farther away from high model count games. I love it when my models feel useful valuable on the table top and don't really want to play a game where there are 200+ miniatures on the table that all hardly matter except as part of larger units. It's a personal preference thing.
I'm VERY excited about Pandora (Dwarf King's Hold in SPAAACE!) because I like the idea of small squads of Corporation marines trying to clear out vermin and monsters from a asteroid mining facility.
SO, its Space Hulk with IG then...
Ill also agree about moving toward smaller games. While big games can be fun...I just dont have the time, energy, and attention span to build and paint dozens of models for a large army.
Polonius wrote:I fully plan on making my next serious army project a FW heavy purchase, either using the models entirely or buying tons of upgrades.
Time, not money, is the biggest obstacle for me putting armies on the table.
On the other hand, time = money.
You could potentially use the price differential between £1 for mantic and £3.70 FW to pay someone to at least assemble, clean and undercoat the models for you, leaving you with the fun painting to finish off.
I'm fairly certain that most commission painters would not mind £2/model for the prep work alone.
That is a really cool looking fig. Just extend the cigar so it looks like a cigar and not a pacifier and swap his sword and he will look ace. The othere infantry looks cool enough for me to include a couple squads in my IG army
@Kroothawk : Neither of those helmets appears in the prototype drawing, especially the second one, which doesn't even come close except in that its a helmet for a human.
Shock and horror, Pig Iron was also influenced by someone else? It can´t be because Kroothawk said it isn´t so. He is by far a GW-Fanboy as anyone able to read his posts can discern. No lack of criticism for GW there as far as I can tell. But he likes to miss the mark of modesty with a passion that can indeed be disturbing.
I want to see the rest of the models. I like them so far but want to see more action poses. Elysians and Corporation are close as others have correctly pointed out that they share the same design philosophies. I am more then fine with that.
Saphos wrote:Shock and horror, Pig Iron was also influenced by someone else? It can´t be because Kroothawk said it isn´t so. He is by far a GW-Fanboy as anyone able to read his posts can discern. No lack of criticism for GW there as far as I can tell. But he likes to miss the mark of modesty with a passion that can indeed be disturbing.
I want to see the rest of the models. I like them so far but want to see more action poses. Elysians and Corporation are close as others have correctly pointed out that they share the same design philosophies. I am more then fine with that.
To be fair I think Kroot has usually been equally critical of other systems in the past (including GW).
Although I think in this case I think that the design of the Mantic stuff is close enough to generic 'sci-fi' that it is unreasonable to call them out as thought they have done something underhanded and stolen the concept. It's not like those Concorde plans going missing for instance and then the Russians turning up with an aeroplane almost exactly the same a couple of years later, or people being critical of Arai helmets for not being original enough because they stole the idea from Ned Kelly..
With Confrontation and AT-43 gone, the tabletop scene is crying for a decent non-skirmish alternative to GW products. I am just angry that Mantic botches this epic opportunity by trying to save on development and design. They slavishly work through the list of popular unreleased GW armies (Squats, Elysians, Praetorians, Lost and the Damned) and show no effort in designing anything (adding cybernetic eyes and guns to Fantasy miniatures while keeping the skirts and swords, only changing details of FW minis now). I hoped that they learned from their botched start in Fantasy, but they obviously didn't.
How are Elysians unreleased? I have them, you know, right here, in my display cabinet. A little extended family of them right there. Aren't they real? Was it all a dream? Have I been throwing money away at nothing?!
ArbeitsSchu wrote:@Kroothawk : Neither of those helmets appears in the prototype drawing, especially the second one, which doesn't even come close except in that its a helmet for a human.
Not to mention they all are ripping off Halo so who really cares...
They are unreleased as a GW army, not a FW army, same with DKoK. And before you say that Praetorians and Squats are also released, I use the word "Unreleased" here as a short hand for "many people want an updated and affordable version by GW with Plastic miniatures but GW is not answering that request"
They are unreleased as a GW army, not a FW army, same with DKoK.
And I thought you sold your Elysians already
Not until you invade your eastern neighbours and annex their resin factories I won't. Actually, after recovering them from that theft last year I'm never going to part with them, everrrrrrr.
You forget that I am not member of the IoM, but the Tau Empire. We don't hate, but spread peace, love and understanding and don't subjugate others (hiding his Kroot lunch bag and the sketch book with anti-netherlands miniatures )
Kroothawk wrote:First two armies are almost-recasts of Fantasy miniatures. These are almost-recasts of resin Elysians. Now waiting for the almost-recasts of the Praetorians. Did Mantic ever have one original idea? At least one?
Seriously, you're drawing a bit of a long bow here. Human sci-fi soldiers in light armour are going to look pretty similar. Speaking of "original" ideas, GW"s entire IP wants to have a word with you. We can start with the Praetorians if you like..
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Kroothawk wrote:Helmet with visor? Check.
Chest armour with shoulder pads? Check.
Elbow armour? Check.
Knee armour? Only Elysians.
Not sure what you mean with lighter armour.
This guy's not wearing his helmet in the top shot, but it's a nice visual to point out just how ridiculous this particular argument of yours is.
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Buzzsaw wrote:
Not to put too fine a point on it, but you're just wrong. Or, perhaps better, your rebuttal is a non-sequitur; you say "The helmet with the big extermal visor also doesn't mimick anything in modern armies", which would be useful if I had mentioned military, rather then tactical gear. Tactical gear also includes police gear... you can tell the police personnel in the prior post by the inconspicuous word "police" written on the uniforms.
Actually various pictures of Russian military forces will come up with soldiers or operators wearing visored helmets as well. They wear all sorts of stuff.
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Kroothawk wrote:
George Spiggott wrote:If Pig Iron parts don't fit well on these then Mantic have done themselves a great disservice.
No need, they copy Pig Iron heads as well (helmet A and G)
Thanks for the link to Pig Iron's copies of HALO helmets.
Seriously though, by being this ridiculous in your argument, you're losing credibility (yeah ok, on a warhammer forum on the internet, but still) so when you're actually making good points, people will start to think of you like Worglock or HSBC and discount 90% of what you say as the usual fanboi/haterz rubbish.
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Kroothawk wrote:With Confrontation and AT-43 gone, the tabletop scene is crying for a decent non-skirmish alternative to GW products. I am just angry that Mantic botches this epic opportunity by trying to save on development and design. They slavishly work through the list of popular unreleased GW armies (Squats, Elysians, Praetorians, Lost and the Damned) and show no effort in designing anything (adding cybernetic eyes and guns to Fantasy miniatures while keeping the skirts and swords, only changing details of FW minis now). I hoped that they learned from their botched start in Fantasy, but they obviously didn't.
Well, people have been after Squats for years, and even I'll grant that their version is different enough in execution from the GW ones to make them look reasonably different to the GW ones. FWIW, I don't actually like the Forgefathers (with the exception of that one metal officer figure). Their other army is Orkx, which also use the same recycled fantasy sprue instead of looking like the (quite decent) concept art. Again, I own none, and only like the one metal officer (nob?) figure. I'm pretty sure that Orks aren't "unreleased", though.
Plenty of people have touched on the "oh noes Elysians" in previous posts (and my own above as well), but I'd just like to ask one final question and then make a statement:
Q: Where did you see/hear about a "Praetorians" copy. (I'm not sure where you find Victorian-Era Zulu Wars British uniforms to be "original" - or more accurately, pith helmets placed onto the bodies of Mordian Iron Guard for a GD diorama and then sold due to their popularity.
Now for the statement - I'm not sure where you think the word "original" relates to, but there's not a huge amount of of originality that goes into thinking of a cool concept and adding "in SPAAAAACE!" to the end of it. Fantasy Orcs, Elves, Dwarfs, Knights (Templars), Rambo (including the exceptionally original and wittily-named Sly Marbo - god my sides are splitting just at the thought of the name), WW2 Russians, WW1 Germans with greatcoats and gasmasks, Romans, Ancient Greeks, Mongols, Vikings and Celts, Knight Hospitalier, Hormagaunts ("original" design!), The Terminator, boardgames based on the movie "Aliens", Michael Moorcock's chaos, RuneQuest Broo, Bubblegum Crisis, the Spanish Inquisition - complete with a love of burning heretics and decrying heresy, The Dirty Dozen, Lawrence of Arabia-themed Bedouin & British, Hobbits, Ogres, the villaness from 101 Dalmations....
"________, but IN SPAAAAACE" doesn't make a ripped-off idea "original". And I say this as someone who owns thousands of GW figures and has been a fan of their IP since Rogue Trader came out. I love their work, I just don't delude myself into thinking that it's especially original in concept.
Q: Where did you see/hear about a "Praetorians" copy.
Mantic is not making a Praetorians copy.
I know absolutely all of Mantic's rumours, and the only time I have ever seen Praetorians mentioned is here, on this forum, constantly repeated in Kroothawk's posts and Kroothawk's posts alone.
Actually the russian version of the Concorde is way better designed.
Where the Concorde is cramped up the Tu-144 has a spacious interrior. The cockpit has a simpler design but still is easier to handle with way less instruments. The rear-wheel recovery-mechanism is way better designed and takes less space. Also it guzzles way less kerosin and has a better range, though it can be as fast as the Concorde. And it actually made money, instead of being a money-burner like the Concorde...
I really need to read up on history about it, although wasn't the Concorde in service for many years, and I thought the only supersonic airliner ever to have been used in regular service? I thought the entire Tu-144 project was delayed then cancelled after it crashed at the Paris Air Show trying to avoid that French fighter jet that was spying on it?
Great shame, I think in purely terms of human achievement (and perhaps art!), that the only things we have flying now are great bath-tubs when something so beautiful had been made more than 40 years ago. The last piece of truly great British engineering now consigned to history, even the large model they used to have outside of Heathrow as you drove to the airport is now gone :(
We've gone massively off-topic Duncan_Idaho! Are you suggesting in a round-about way however that the copies can be better than the original? (although I had always thought the opposite had been true re. the Concorde)..
scarletsquig wrote:Mantic is not making a Praetorians copy.
I know absolutely all of Mantic's rumours, and the only time I have ever seen Praetorians mentioned is here, on this forum, constantly repeated in Kroothawk's posts and Kroothawk's posts alone.
I was referring to this post:
BrookM wrote:They also went on to announce that the Corporation would be red coats in space (how original), that the Asterians would be pixies in space, the Z'zor would be hornets in space, rebels would be freedom fighters in space, Plague would be survival horror in space and the mention of an eight race, also in space. Ugh.
This was posted when some more modern concepts of corporation were already shown, but "red coats in Space" is an unambiguous reference to Victorian troops in space. But maybe BrookM just made a misguiding remark.
scarletsquig wrote:Mantic is not making a Praetorians copy.
I know absolutely all of Mantic's rumours, and the only time I have ever seen Praetorians mentioned is here, on this forum, constantly repeated in Kroothawk's posts and Kroothawk's posts alone.
I was referring to this post:
BrookM wrote:They also went on to announce that the Corporation would be red coats in space (how original), that the Asterians would be pixies in space, the Z'zor would be hornets in space, rebels would be freedom fighters in space, Plague would be survival horror in space and the mention of an eight race, also in space. Ugh.
This was posted when some more modern concepts of corporation were already shown, but "red coats in Space" is an unambiguous reference to Victorian troops in space. But maybe BrookM just made a misguiding remark.
No, I was quoting the article they put on the site I thought you always checked the sources yourself? Shame on you.
Also, Red Coats in space might not literally mean men in red coats with pith helmets, but rather expendables like the Imperial Guard is described nine times out of ten: Expendable troops all lined up in neat rows ready to die.
Can't find this "red coats in space" on their website.
And I don't check Mantic lately. I rely on others to screen the product ranges I am not interested in.
Edit: Then the red coat remark has been indeed misleading. While Stalin treated his troops as expendables, the British parlament didn't. teaches me to rely on others
@Pacific
Is that was my intention: Copies can be better than the original.
Re: Concorde
The Tupolew was not as long in service, but made more money during this time. It came to an end after the crash, but still was more successfull than the Concorde.
If you ever go to Germany make sure you visit the Technikmuseum Sinsheim where both planes are exhibited.
Kroothawk wrote:but "red coats in Space" is an unambiguous reference to Victorian troops in space.
This might be the confusion -- it's also commonly used to refer to the one-dies-an-episode nameless extras that joined Capt. Kirk and company on Star Trek. They wore red shirts. (This is what's great about Dakka -- where else can you see someone make a Star Trek reference that gets interpreted as a historical war reference?)
Kroothawk wrote:Can't find this "red coats in space" on their website.
And I don't check Mantic lately. I rely on others to screen the product ranges I am not interested in.
Edit: Then the red coat remark has been indeed misleading. While Stalin treated his troops as expendables, the British parlament didn't. teaches me to rely on others
"Redcoats" would be a reference to a colonising, Imperial army, going to conquer native planets and harvest their resources et al. The PMC/Marines from the film "Avatar" are "redcoats" in this context. Good job engaging with the rest of the stuff I posted, too. You know, even on the internet, you're better off admitting when you're wrong and even apologising at times. You're less likely to lose respect that way.
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Mewens wrote:
Kroothawk wrote:but "red coats in Space" is an unambiguous reference to Victorian troops in space.
This might be the confusion -- it's also commonly used to refer to the one-dies-an-episode nameless extras that joined Capt. Kirk and company on Star Trek. They wore red shirts. (This is what's great about Dakka -- where else can you see someone make a Star Trek reference that gets interpreted as a historical war reference?)
Yep, though those are "redshirts" I wrote a bit about them as being disposable unnamed characters but deleted it since I wasn't sure of BrookM's native language etc. I see you picked up on it as well.
scarletsquig wrote:Mantic is not making a Praetorians copy.
I know absolutely all of Mantic's rumours, and the only time I have ever seen Praetorians mentioned is here, on this forum, constantly repeated in Kroothawk's posts and Kroothawk's posts alone.
I was referring to this post:
BrookM wrote:They also went on to announce that the Corporation would be red coats in space (how original), that the Asterians would be pixies in space, the Z'zor would be hornets in space, rebels would be freedom fighters in space, Plague would be survival horror in space and the mention of an eight race, also in space. Ugh.
This was posted when some more modern concepts of corporation were already shown, but "red coats in Space" is an unambiguous reference to Victorian troops in space. But maybe BrookM just made a misguiding remark.
Yes, he did make a slightly misleading statement, but also one that referred specifically to the background and not the miniatures. You really should taken his post at slightly less literal terms after he started talking about pixies in space, but this is what happens when people use hyperbole to make stuff up and cast it in a deliberately bad light.
The background for the Corporation is basically that they are the worst parts of the British Empire/ East India trading company rolled into one, ruthlessly exploiting an suppressing anyone with a lower level of technology than them. That was all the redcoats line really refers to, not Mantic's plans to buy Praetorians off ebay, recast them, and sell them in 2012 as their new range of sci-fi troopers.
Anyway, aside from that you seem to be having immense fun once again dredging up the tired "fantasy recasts", "googles in SPAAAAACE", and "Mantic steals everything from GW" arguments that were already done to death multiple times in this thread months ago by you personally, so I'll leave you to it.
In actual news, Mantic has announced "no price rises for 2012"... despite UK inflation running at 5%.
scarletsquig wrote:Mantic is not making a Praetorians copy.
I know absolutely all of Mantic's rumours, and the only time I have ever seen Praetorians mentioned is here, on this forum, constantly repeated in Kroothawk's posts and Kroothawk's posts alone.
I was referring to this post:
BrookM wrote:They also went on to announce that the Corporation would be red coats in space (how original), that the Asterians would be pixies in space, the Z'zor would be hornets in space, rebels would be freedom fighters in space, Plague would be survival horror in space and the mention of an eight race, also in space. Ugh.
This was posted when some more modern concepts of corporation were already shown, but "red coats in Space" is an unambiguous reference to Victorian troops in space. But maybe BrookM just made a misguiding remark.
Yes, he did make a slightly misleading statement, but also one that referred specifically to the background and not the miniatures. You really should taken his post at slightly less literal terms after he started talking about pixies in space, but this is what happens when people use hyperbole to make stuff up and cast it in a deliberately bad light.
The background for the Corporation is basically that they are the worst parts of the British Empire/ East India trading company rolled into one, ruthlessly exploiting an suppressing anyone with a lower level of technology than them. That was all the redcoats line really refers to, not Mantic's plans to buy Praetorians off ebay, recast them, and sell them in 2012 as their new range of sci-fi troopers.
Anyway, aside from that you seem to be having immense fun once again dredging up the tired "fantasy recasts", "googles in SPAAAAACE", and "Mantic steals everything from GW" arguments that were already done to death multiple times in this thread months ago by you personally, so I'll leave you to it.
In actual news, Mantic has announced "no price rises for 2012"... despite UK inflation running at 5%.
FFS! Again, I was QUOTING the interview found in Mantic Mag 5, where those exact terms were used. FFS..
Then we have the mysterious Asterians
(pixies and fairies in spaace!), the
swarming Z’zor (hornets in spaaace!),
the all-consuming Plague (survival
horror in spaaace!), the noble Rebels
(freedom fighters in spaaace!)... and
there’s the eighth race. We don’t talk
about them. ...but I cannot wait for
their release!
You actually took that quote seriously, though? I'm not even sure if the silly "in spaaaaaace" quotes in brackets are what Alessio actually said, or if they were added by the editor later (or quite possibly, a certain overenthusiastic intern. :p).
It's clearly a tongue-in-cheek description, in fact, Alessio is pretty much just fooling around for the course of that entire interview, if the words in brackets are actually his. Taking it out of context, jumping all over the word "redcoats" and using it to support a 5-page made-up ramble about Mantic recasting GW's Praetorians (the design of which is totally copyright GW and their own unique IP) is a bit of a stretch on Kroothawk's part, and is really just clutching at straws at this point, in a desperate attempt to find something bad to say about the Corporation release.
If you'd watched any of the videos they did explaining the background, it'd be clear that they're not quite that simplistic as the "in spaaaaaaace" rambling that Alessio went on about.
Asterian concept is more like "Greys" than space pixies... they are sighted near black holes and carry out mass abductions.
I am impressed. Very impressed. The only slight problem is the shoulders. I can deal with the lame looking gun.
The legs are great, the helmets are the the best i've ever seen from a science fantasy standpoint. I.e they are a perfect combo of medievil and modern. A minor thing but the face on the first grunt is so cool, all scrunched up and nasty looking.
scarletsquig wrote:It's clearly a tongue-in-cheek description, in fact, Alessio is pretty much just fooling around for the course of that entire interview, if the words in brackets are actually his. Taking it out of context, jumping all over the word "redcoats" and using it to support a 5-page made-up ramble about Mantic recasting GW's Praetorians (the design of which is totally copyright GW and their own unique IP) is a bit of a stretch on Kroothawk's part, and is really just clutching at straws at this point, in a desperate attempt to find something bad to say about the Corporation release.
Hyperbole and false accusations are not helpful. Noone is talking about recasts (except recasts of Mantic Fantasy sprues that is ).
Taking the only official characterization of a fraction seriously is an understandable "mistake", esp. when nobody cares to give proper quotes of the original sources. Esp. when the other fractions are still Squats, 2nd edition orks, LatD and bug Aliens.
But to stop this OT discussion, let's just agree that many people like the Mantic releases and I don't.
scarletsquig wrote:Mantic is not making a Praetorians copy.
I know absolutely all of Mantic's rumours, and the only time I have ever seen Praetorians mentioned is here, on this forum, constantly repeated in Kroothawk's posts and Kroothawk's posts alone.
I was referring to this post:
BrookM wrote:They also went on to announce that the Corporation would be red coats in space (how original), that the Asterians would be pixies in space, the Z'zor would be hornets in space, rebels would be freedom fighters in space, Plague would be survival horror in space and the mention of an eight race, also in space. Ugh.
This was posted when some more modern concepts of corporation were already shown, but "red coats in Space" is an unambiguous reference to Victorian troops in space. But maybe BrookM just made a misguiding remark.
Not just Victorian troops, all the way back through to 1700 British troops wore and were called redcoats.
Someone earlier posted some fluff, seemingly a direct quote, that described the Corporation as having 'propaganda videos showing them heriocly slaughtering spear wielding savages' or somesuch.
I can see where the 'red coats in space' has come from. Dunno how you got to ripoff praetorians lol.
I am not saying they are original but I think the forgefathers aeshetically look very different from squats, the exo armour is the only exception imo. Also seeing as mantic had a dwarf line in their fantasy range surely it is logical that they would have them in their scifi range as well. If nothing else to guarantee some sales.
Mantic started their business ripping off GW with their Kings of War, that is very hard to deny imo. However imo their warpath is their attempt at being a bit more original.
Alternatively, you could argue that the company started off by offering a radically new and unique-looking line of models (the elves) that absolutely nobody bought because they didn't look anything like the GW models.
So, then they had to change up their business model to ape GW more closely before anyone would buy their stuff in large enough quantities to warrant plastics production.
The market is not Mantic's fault.
At the end of the day everyone just wants cheaper warhammer minis and nothing else, try personally investing £100k+ of your own money to release a new and radically unique range of really well-conceptualized plastic miniatures with top-notch sculpting, excellent background accompanied by a brilliant game... and you will fail hard because the market will look at your work and think "can't use it with warhammers, pass".
Ask any sculptor or manufacturer if they would consider making a plastic kit that had zero GW-usage and you'll probably get a "well, ideally, I'd love to, but..." kinda answer.
Bastion is the only current exception I can think of that isn't part of the pre-painted/ board game market, and they've already gone bankrupt once.
scarletsquig wrote:Alternatively, you could argue that the company started off by offering a radically new and unique-looking line of models (the elves) that absolutely nobody bought because they didn't look anything like the GW models.
scarletsquig wrote:Alternatively, you could argue that the company started off by offering a radically new and unique-looking line of models (the elves) that absolutely nobody bought because they didn't look anything like the GW models.
The dragons were released more than a year later. And every company has its awfull models. (PP:Vaccuming Orboros, Dancing Warowolf, gaking Goat, GW: Walking IG-egg, stuff with more skulls on it than a whole undead army has troops, etc.)
And yes, most complains were that they were not heroic style and did not fit in with the GW elves. Simply check the old threads.
Well, I don't like the Mantic Elves because of the look, being thinner than Kate Moss. Nobody would have complained about e.g. a Nightelf inspired army. Rackham had its own design as well and nobody complained about it.
Kroothawk wrote:
Taking the only official characterization of a fraction seriously is an understandable "mistake", esp. when nobody cares to give proper quotes of the original sources. Esp. when the other fractions are still Squats, 2nd edition orks, LatD and bug Aliens.
But to stop this OT discussion, let's just agree that many people like the Mantic releases and I don't.
The word you're looking for in English is "Faction" - which covers groups of people, political groups, armed forces, etc. "Fraction" is a mathematical term, and is incorrect in it's use here (at least in English).
"Bug aliens" are as original a sci-fi concept as Tyranids are and were. IE they are a sci-fi staple, (just like Space Marines, for that matter!) so it makes sense that both GW and Warpath will feature them. If they look like not-tyranids, I'll gladly call a spade a spade. "Survival Horror" could mean many things. At this stage you calling them LatD is rather disingenuous until the concept sketches come out.
I think it's pretty clear that you appear to severely dislike Mantic for whatever reason.
I think Mantic is hedging it's bets. It's making its own game, and that's cute, but lets be serious: it knows where the market is, and that's GW alternatives.
The elves were a new and different concept that was not well executed. I don't mind 'em, but they aren't great sculpts.
The dwarves and undead were better, if very generic. I actually quite like the feral looking orcs.
Warpath has been pretty disappointing, if only because we haven't actually seen any fully sci-fi plastic infantry. The vehicles and heros look good though.
scipio.au wrote:I think it's pretty clear that you appear to severely dislike Mantic for whatever reason.
As said before, this is wrong. But like GW, Mantic seems to have no feedback loop of any kind to keep them from making catastrophic management decisions again and again. No surprise with so many ex-GW people working there.
scipio.au wrote:I think it's pretty clear that you appear to severely dislike Mantic for whatever reason.
As said before, this is wrong. But like GW, Mantic seems to have no feedback loop of any kind to keep them from making catastrophic management decisions again and again. No surprise with so many ex-GW people working there.
Fair or not, repeatedly making positive or negative comments about a company will make you, in the eyes of many, a fanboy/hater.
I always thought that Mantic had pretty good customer feedback? Hasn't the one chap talked about stuff like that in the videos they release?
They're releasing a new upgrade kit for the FF which gives them a beefier armoured and sci-fi look, away from the KoW look of still having swords etc. That could well be because of the criticism aimed in their direction.
Weren't the KoW Undead wraiths released in resin as well as metal following fan feedback?
Perhaps someone else is in a better position to reply and know the exact extent of their customer interaction, but from a basic glance it certainly looks more involved than GW's. Although that is a silly point to make really, it could only be worse if they started including nail-bombs with their miniature kits.
scarletsquig wrote:I don't bother posting Mantic rumours to Dakka now unless someone specifically asks about something, it's just not worth the effort.
Do it for me then pretty please? I'll show you my signed Mantic card that I got when I was lucky with ordering from them on-line.
Jesus. This mega-thread has been derailed. Kroot has already said he doesn't want to keep arguing so I think we can leave it there. Please can we leave it there?
Scarletsquig, I appreciate your rumour posts, please do post them here. If you feel certain posters are a problem, you can ignore them on Dakka.
I am excited to see what Mantic do with the plague. I hope it looks good. And I had an idea to use AoW berserkers as the Forgefather "scrapper" caste. Now I can't get the idea of converting up a technorabble of biker dwarves out of my head...
Perkustin wrote:
Mantic started their business ripping off GW with their Kings of War, that is very hard to deny imo. However imo their warpath is their attempt at being a bit more original.
See, I don't think what Mantic is doing is conceptually original - I think it's pretty clear they're trying to tap into the much larger 40k market. (Which in itself is full of borrowed and stolen concepts, but I digress.) Whether the figures are direct rip-offs of GW's stuff is where it gets more interesting. The Corporation are obviously designed as stand-ins for IG, and I'm ok with that. Are they a direct copy of Elysians or any other GW-IG set? Nope (though wouldn't it be funny if they based some figures on WW2 Russians or Rambo wannabes!)
Orks? Sorry, Orx - sure - clearly they're based on 40k Orks, but they're pretty protected there. Forgefathers - I find them similar to many of the later Squat designs, only not as good. These Corporation guys? Humans in light sci-fi armour is too generic a concept to claim direct rip-offs, and GW itself has diluted the original IG "look" over the years with many many sub-ranges which at this stage means any human miniature with a gun works as Imperial Guard. I plan to press my Eureka Minaitures USMC, SEALs, and La Legion into IG service when they're not doing their true duty.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kroothawk wrote:
scipio.au wrote:I think it's pretty clear that you appear to severely dislike Mantic for whatever reason.
As said before, this is wrong. But like GW, Mantic seems to have no feedback loop of any kind to keep them from making catastrophic management decisions again and again. No surprise with so many ex-GW people working there.
I disagree. It wasn't that long ago where both you and I were criticising the Forgefathers and Orx. Now they've released some preview models for what I have to say are nice looking but pretty generic sci-fi humans - obviously designed to be Imperial Guard proxies, but following no specific "rip-off" concepts, as generic sci-fi humans are a pretty generic concept in itself (see Aliens USCM etc etc) while you've gone off the deep end about Elysians, Praetorians and Lost and the Damned.
Polonius wrote:
Fair or not, repeatedly making positive or negative comments about a company will make you, in the eyes of many, a fanboy/hater.
It's not about repeatedly so much as it is about not being even-handed. If he simply said "I don't like those - they suck" that would be one thing - aesthetics are a personal choice and I can always agree to disagree there. Going into this much denial about how they're "so clearly an Elysian clone" is another thing - especially after multiple members have shown multiple times how they're actually not. There are some pretty well-established fanboi and hater posters here on Dakka whose posts are essentially self-parody at this point (and are on my ignore list as well). I've thought of KH as mostly level-headed (excepting his hang-ups about Polish Orks) to this point, so it'd be a shame to write him off as another Dakka nutjob.
Da Boss wrote:Jesus. This mega-thread has been derailed. Kroot has already said he doesn't want to keep arguing so I think we can leave it there. Please can we leave it there?
Scarletsquig, I appreciate your rumour posts, please do post them here. If you feel certain posters are a problem, you can ignore them on Dakka.
quoted for truth, this thread needs more news and less rage. Its been tough to find recent Mantic updates when you have to scroll through all the bickering.
On a related to Mantic note I'm also not a big fan of there elves, maybe if I look at them they will grow on me but first impression makes me feel like something is off, just cant put my finger on it
While one can argue the morality and/or legality of GW "compatible" stuff, it does enrich the 40K universe. Its kind of like musicians improvising on a theme. I love all the different "space dwarves" out there. Mantic's "corporation" will no doubt be the fodder for many new, creative IG regiments created by gamers. It would be interesting if they did the "space pixies" on their elf scale - it would make them more "alien". And gave them optional wings. That would be a cool without compromising their "eldar stand in" status.
Thanks for all the insults, the trolling, and the false accusations. I will not comment on them, but I will keep my opinion, even if you think my opinion is false and I made up Alessio's characterization of the corporation. Can we get on now?
Kroothawk wrote:Thanks for all the insults, the trolling, and the false accusations.
Yes, you are right. Everyone other than you has been a really big meanie!
We've all been trolling and insulting and lying in the face of your reasonable, balanced and politely-expressed observations and we are all so very sorry to have upset you. <3
Now that we're all friends again, here's Mantic's release list for the next 2 months. Mostly a selection of minor stuff, since most of their efforts will be reserved for the Corporation release in March. I sent an email to Mantic last year asking if the orc flagger could be made into a blister (having to buy it together with the warlord on boar made it too pricy to get multiples), so I'm happy to see that on there.
Twilight Kin Assassin - £6.49 (new sculpt)
Twilight Kin Mega Army - £99.99 (hybrid metal/plastic based on the plastic elves, does a decent job of improving the look of the plastics).
Goblin Spearmen - £24.99 (intended as a tester release to gather opinions on the sculpts before going ahead with either plastic or restic, *not* the permanent and final release)
Goblin Mawbeast - £9.99
Abyssal Halfbreed Lord - £9.99
Dwarf King - £6.49
Orc Flagger - £7.49
Dwarf King’s Hold: Monsters Set - £14.99 (mixture of 20 different KoW models for use in DKH)
Forgefathers Tactical Upgrade set: £14.99 (10-model hybrid plastic/metal kit, includes enough metal torsos to replace all the 2-part clones, along with arms, enough enclosed helmets for the whole squad, flamer and rocket launcher)
Forgefathers Drakkarim team: £14.99 (5-model all-metal heavy weapon team).
In addition, some extra stuff I've heard:
5 games will be released in 2012:
- KoW 3rd edition Hardback rulebook (yes, the rules will still be free online)
- 2.0 Warpath rules (likely to be similar to the 2.0 KoW release with updated rules and 8 army lists)
- DKH: Ancient Grudge (already out)
- "Project Pandora" (not quite DKH in spaace, Jake has changed the gameplay quite a bit and only kept the core dice-rolling mechanics)
- 5th game. Total Wildcard, current leading rumour is "fantasy football game".
Worth noting at this point that elf scouts, dwarf ironclad command, orc greatax and zombies/ghouls all come with options to build them open-handed, without any weapons, so it is theoretically possible for mantic to go ahead and launch a new fantasy football game with 4 teams in plastic (and a bunch of supporting metals) right away with minimal effort.
KoW 3rd edition will include 2 new armies (for a total of 10 races, which KoW is likely to cap out at for the near future), which have not been decided upon yet. Ronnie is currently asking for internet feedback on what people would like to see.
More newsletter subscriber content in 2012.. the journal is being given away as a free download to subscribers rather than being sold in printed form (kind of a shame, I really like my printed copies, but I can see why they're doing it this way).
scarletsquig wrote:[Now that we're all friends again, here's Mantic's release list for the next 2 months....
...5 games will be released in 2012...
...- 2.0 Warpath rules (likely to be similar to the 2.0 KoW release with updated rules and 8 army lists)...
This is what I'm really excited about. After my first game of Warpath last week (read about it here: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/420343.page ) I'm really looking forward to using it now and then to get my now-rarely-used 40k figs on the table for a game that won't take 3+ hours.
Do we have any kind of confirmation that all the army lists will be released with the 2.0 rules? I really need enough army lists that I will be able to use outright or tweak them to accomadate 40k forces other than orks, Marines and IG.
Really? A fantasy football game? I know they're trying to be a poor man's GW in so many ways, but for some reason that's what goes to far for me. I hope that rumor's false.
The Fantasy Football game surprises me. IMHO, of all the Games Workshop game systems, BB is probably the most intuitive, fun to play and balanced (perhaps not internal team balance but overall).
AgeOfEgos wrote:The Fantasy Football game surprises me. IMHO, of all the Games Workshop game systems, BB is probably the most intuitive, fun to play and balanced (perhaps not internal team balance but overall).
Me too, from what I can see it still gets pretty heavy use as well in clubs as well. And, as you say "GW's best ever game" is a phrase you often hear bandied about.
The only reasoning I can see from Mantic's point of view:
- BB doesn't really get any support from GW any more. The game is nestled away in the corner of the website.
- Teams are expensive, 30 quid or so for a new team nowadays right? And Ebay has become a haven for sharks concerning the older sculpt teams. Although there are alternatives from other companies, $20 or so for a team would be nice especially as you have to think of use in BB.
- The sculpts for some of the new teams aren't GWs best, I heard somewhere that they were used as test subjects for new sculptors.
If it was a good game (i never played it), and people liked it... GW just droped the ball, they just dont want to give support to the game. It is a very smart move...
And space corridor with humans vs aliens will be incredible, lets play Aliens (Mantic should be smart there, Dark Horse or Warner Bross could issue them fo copyright infringinment...)
Considering Space Hulk is basically Aliens: The Board Game, and nobody got in trouble for that, I wouldn't expect them to get a lawsuit or anything. Pretty much every science fiction game, board or video, has taken a lot of influence from Aliens to the point of straight up ripping it off or quoting it directly. As long as the aliens in question don't look like the xenomorphs, "kinda futuristic soldiers vs. bug things" is pretty safe ground.
A small note on Jake Thornton's blog about the development of the new 'Project Pandora' board game:
I spent this afternoon playing Project Pandora: Grim Cargo with Ronnie. After some awkwardness to start with, she’s suddenly decided to behave herself. Yay!
I’ve talked before about the variable helpfulness of different game designs, and this was another variation of awkward. I could always see the game lurking within the tangle, and it’s nice to see it finally doing what I wanted it to from the start. We’ve been playing the first training mission a lot. Like the first scenario from each of the Dwarf King’s Hold starter sets I’ve aimed to make it a scenario that you can play again and again as you fine tune your tactics and (in this case) go for a high score. It’s proving very popular with the testers who keep asking for “just one more go”, and this is exactly the response you hope for. Once you move onto the other scenarios you get some extra features and the game gets a little more involved, so it’s a really good idea to get a firm grounding of the basic tactics on the training ground, before they try to rip your head off for real.
scarletsquig wrote:
5 games will be released in 2012:
- KoW 3rd edition Hardback rulebook (yes, the rules will still be free online)
I don't much like the sound of this. Hardback rulebook means it'll cost quite a bit. I guess it's for Mantic Fanatics/Fanbois who want a collector's edition item? Either way, I'm not so sure it's the best way to go for a new game that's trying to establish itself - a softcover rulebook would be much more appropriate IMO. I'm assuming that in order to go from 3-page pamphlet to hardcover book it'll include all the army lists, as well as a painting and modelling guide (in conjunction with Army Painter?) and maybe a battle report or two to act as filler.
- 2.0 Warpath rules (likely to be similar to the 2.0 KoW release with updated rules and 8 army lists)
So don't buy WP under any circumstances since it'll be reissued later? Check! Will they add in proper sc-fi legs for the dorfs?
- 5th game. Total Wildcard, current leading rumour is "fantasy football game".
Worth noting at this point that elf scouts, dwarf ironclad command, orc greatax and zombies/ghouls all come with options to build them open-handed, without any weapons, so it is theoretically possible for mantic to go ahead and launch a new fantasy football game with 4 teams in plastic (and a bunch of supporting metals) right away with minimal effort.
/facepalm. The only way I see this working is if it comes with a cool board (see BB 2nd Ed's "Asrogranite" board) and/or two really nicely sculpted teams - rather than rehashing their plastics with minimal changes (like they did with WP) - it's already easy enough to buy a WFB fantasy box and make a kick-arse looking Blood Bowl team - they'd need to do better than that with the models, quite frankly. - specifically adding mucho American Football-styled gear.
scarletsquig wrote:
5 games will be released in 2012:
- KoW 3rd edition Hardback rulebook (yes, the rules will still be free online)
I don't much like the sound of this. Hardback rulebook means it'll cost quite a bit. I guess it's for Mantic Fanatics/Fanbois who want a collector's edition item? Either way, I'm not so sure it's the best way to go for a new game that's trying to establish itself - a softcover rulebook would be much more appropriate IMO. I'm assuming that in order to go from 3-page pamphlet to hardcover book it'll include all the army lists, as well as a painting and modelling guide (in conjunction with Army Painter?) and maybe a battle report or two to act as filler.
- 2.0 Warpath rules (likely to be similar to the 2.0 KoW release with updated rules and 8 army lists)
So don't buy WP under any circumstances since it'll be reissued later? Check! Will they add in proper sc-fi legs for the dorfs?
So you mean don't buy the WP rules now? Sorry I'm being deliberately difficult there...
If KoW is anything to go buy it will probably just be small changes to the rules, certainly not a fundamental overhaul. They've been getting feedback on what people think of the current rules and will go from there I imagine.
There is a pack coming out in a few months I believe which is a resin/plastic kits which has an upgrade, including armoured legs (not skirt) and helmeted heads for every dwarf in a standard Forge Father kit. This is the one I'm waiting for actually to do an entire 'counts as' SM force using armoured stunties
- KoW is not a 3-page pamphlet currently, it's a full-colour 48-page rulebook + army lists mini-book given away free in every army box that mantic sells (which you can buy a copy of separately for £5 if you don't want to get an army box).
- This will still happen once the rules are updated, they just put the new version in the boxes.
- As for not buying warpath because the rules get updated next year... you can't buy the warpath rules right now anyway, the only option is "free". :p
Mantic update their rules and army lists on a yearly basis, to improve the game and balance the army lists. Updating is no big deal, and can be as simple as hitting a button on the printer, it's not like you're having to buy £35 rulebook + series of £25 army books here.
The rules are free and/or cheap, it's only £5 to buy a softcover copy of the KoW rules that comes with the army boxes, or you can print out a downloaded copy. Warpath will likely be the same.
Also, realistically speaking, from experience, Mantic gives away so many copies of the rules in its army sets that you tend to end up with several physical copies of the rules anyway. I have 4 copies of 1st edition, and 2 copies of 2nd edition currently, and that's after giving away a few. It tends to not be a massive issue IRL.
And finally, the best option is just throwing a rules .pdf on to your phone. Zero effort at all.
Are you actually genuinely, completely and utterly seriously seeing free rules and army lists which are regularly updated on a fixed schedule as a bad thing?
It's one of the best things about the company IMO, not having to wait for eons for any broken rules to be fixed, and there being an actual desire to create a fun and balanced tournament game.
scarletsquig wrote:- KoW is not a 3-page pamphlet currently, it's a full-colour 48-page rulebook + army lists mini-book given away free in every army box that mantic sells (which you can buy a copy of separately for £5 if you don't want to get an army box).
- This will still happen once the rules are updated, they just put the new version in the boxes.
- As for not buying warpath because the rules get updated next year... you can't buy the warpath rules right now anyway, the only option is "free". :p
Mantic update their rules and army lists on a yearly basis, to improve the game and balance the army lists. Updating is no big deal, and can be as simple as hitting a button on the printer, it's not like you're having to buy £35 rulebook + series of £25 army books here.
The rules are free and/or cheap, it's only £5 to buy a softcover copy of the KoW rules that comes with the army boxes, or you can print out a downloaded copy. Warpath will likely be the same.
Also, realistically speaking, from experience, Mantic gives away so many copies of the rules in its army sets that you tend to end up with several physical copies of the rules anyway. I have 4 copies of 1st edition, and 2 copies of 2nd edition currently, and that's after giving away a few. It tends to not be a massive issue IRL.
Are you actually genuinely, completely and utterly seriously seeing free rules and army lists which are regularly updated on a fixed schedule as a bad thing?
It's one of the best things about the company IMO, not having to wait for eons for any broken rules to be fixed, and there being an actual desire to create a fun and balanced tournament game.
My 3-page quote is based on the one I got in my Morgoth's Revenge box that I ordered and received not 6 months ago. Maybe it's 6 pages? Tiny pamphlet, either way. I can't be bothered going and looking for it. I do have to say that I was incredibly disappointed when I saw it as the boxed set was all "rules included - so I was expecting something more substantial - something more like the 40k or FoW mini-rulebooks, or at least like the one that came with the Warmachine Starter. Not a few sheets of paper. - I just went and had a look for the box, but I can't find it. I must have put it into storage when I did a cleanup about 2 months ago. The dwarfs will be inside, since I took all the undead out, as they're much nicer models and I'll be doing them up for LotR.
Multiple rules copies isn't an issue if you buy tons of their stuff? Fair enough. I'm not likely to be buying a lot of army sets. Though I'm interested in that £150 Corporation set. If they show us some more figures, that is...
Free rules and regular updates are fine, I just can't see the point in going for an expensive hardcover rulebook when softcovers will do the job just as well without the expense of a hardcover print run. And really, if you're on a slow burn schedule like I am as far as finding time to get around to painting and playing with miniatures, re-releasing the starter box within a year (or annually) is a good way to put it into a "eh, maybe later" pattern indefinitely. Doesn't matter for me, I guess, since I don't much like the Orks or the Dwarfs, and I'm not likely to ever get around to trying out their game. £5 is reasonable for a printed copy, I guess. Is it 50 pages + army lists or 50 inclusive of Army lists? How many pages in total?
56 pages (including all 8 army lists), full colour, £5 (or free, included in every army box/ from your printer/ as a .pdf file on your phone).
What exactly else is it that mantic can provide? Free digital copy, cheap softcover copy, upcoming hardback copy. I'm not seeing any other option that they can actually provide.
It's highly likely that this softcover variant (with an update to 3rd edition) will remain on sale and continue to be included in army boxes even after the hardback is on sale.
It's a big improvement over the 1st edition rules pamphlet (the one that you have from your Morgoth's Revenge set).
Warpath is currently in pamphlet format for it's initial release, and will probably get the booklet treatment when its rules are updated.
What I will say is that it's impossible to please everyone - you might be interested to know that I've also debated this same topic in the past with 2 other people with the polar opposite opinion to yours - they wanted Mantic to stop putting rules in their army boxes and include more miniatures instead (one said it was pointless because you can just print them out for free, and another said it was pointless because they wanted the models to play warhammer, "not mantic's crappy rip-off").
Similarly, there have been lots of people specifically asking mantic to make hardback books, because they want a "proper" rulebook "like the GW ones".
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Scipio you seem to want to find fault where there is none....
+1
You can say a lot of bad stuff about Mantic, but critizing regularly updated rules being available in multiple formats is silly. Just bash them for their ugly minis (dwarves, orks, elves, space-dwarfs, space-orks etc) instead
scarletsquig wrote:Alternatively, you could argue that the company started off by offering a radically new and unique-looking line of models (the elves) that absolutely nobody bought because they didn't look anything like the GW models.
So, then they had to change up their business model to ape GW more closely before anyone would buy their stuff in large enough quantities to warrant plastics production.
The market is not Mantic's fault.
At the end of the day everyone just wants cheaper warhammer minis and nothing else, try personally investing £100k+ of your own money to release a new and radically unique range of really well-conceptualized plastic miniatures with top-notch sculpting, excellent background accompanied by a brilliant game... and you will fail hard because the market will look at your work and think "can't use it with warhammers, pass".
Ask any sculptor or manufacturer if they would consider making a plastic kit that had zero GW-usage and you'll probably get a "well, ideally, I'd love to, but..." kinda answer.
Bastion is the only current exception I can think of that isn't part of the pre-painted/ board game market, and they've already gone bankrupt once.
Sorry man I have to disagree with you on the " Ask any sculptor or manufacturer if they would consider making a plastic kit that had zero GW-usage and you'll probably get a "well, ideally, I'd love to, but..." kinda answer" part.
There are plenty of companys out there in 6mm,10mm,15mm,20mm who do outstanding work and the thought never crossed their mind ' Can this be used in a GW game?" once.
Personally I think mantic is like any other company, they have some good stuff, and they have some stinkers. They are still relitivley young so hopefully there sculpting improves ( im not saying it bad just that it's good for your company and your customers if sculpts improve over time) and their use of CAD helps them improve their model line over time.
One question who does their plastic casting Renedra? Do they also do the metal 'plastic injection' molds or are those done elsewhere?
@SS, you seem to be really 'into' mantic that is awsome. I am the same way about Ambush Alley Games, I switched from GW to them and I have never looked back. Isn't it awsome to be a TTWG'er these days? We are soooo spoiled for choices and options,
Does Mantic have their own fourms? Do the game developers just randomally show up there and answer questions and carry on conversations with people? If they do I know what it's like and it feels damn good to be appriciated as a customer doesn't it?
FabricatorGeneralMike wrote: Does Mantic have their own fourms? Do the game developers just randomally show up there and answer questions and carry on conversations with people? If they do I know what it's like and it feels damn good to be appriciated as a customer doesn't it?
They do, they also show up on Dakka, Warseer, and 'Mantic Fanatics' from time to time.
There are plenty of companys out there in 6mm,10mm,15mm,20mm who do outstanding work and the thought never crossed their mind ' Can this be used in a GW game?" once.
My statement strictly applied to plastic miniatures and absolutely nothing else.
If you're talking about metal or resin then yes, there are hundreds of different companies making excellent and utterly unique sculpts.
None of them would risk spending most of their life savings on a plastic mould for some of their models though, because they know that they simply wouldn't sell anywhere near enough models to pay back the cost of the mould.
Metal moulds cost $$$, plastic moulds cost $$$$$. You need to sell XX metal models to pay back your mould costs, whereas with plastic, you need to sell XXXXX models.
To do this, you need low RRP prices and/or a highly popular range of miniatures. Which, realisitically speaking, means that the models must be GW-compatible to make up the sales volumes needed.
And yeah, I'm pretty well into mantic myself. I really like what they're doing, I probably would have lost interest in wargaming altogether if it wasn't for them. I also would have lost interest in modern animation if it wasn't for My Little Pony, but that's another story altogether...
Their communication is great, regular blog posts and forum posts by the staff. Hundreds of people have had the chance to chat to the CEO, game designers and artists, they attend a large amount of events in the UK, Europe and America. There's excellent communication and feedback going on about rules issues, army list balance etc. and in general they're trying to take everything that GW does wrong, and do it right instead. They aren't always perfect, but they do a good enough job for me.
And yeah, they do read forums, including this one!
There are plenty of companys out there in 6mm,10mm,15mm,20mm who do outstanding work and the thought never crossed their mind ' Can this be used in a GW game?" once.
That´s because most of them are historical companies. Regarding SF/Fantasy there is not much out there besides GW-proxy and D&D
I have been playtesting this game in the last 3 days and its good to introduce new players to 40k. I find after 750 points to be good for casual gaming.
The Forgefathers have a lack of cheap transport, because you need to use 2 heavy dakkars for transport.
There are plenty of companys out there in 6mm,10mm,15mm,20mm who do outstanding work and the thought never crossed their mind ' Can this be used in a GW game?" once.
That´s because most of them are historical companies. Regarding SF/Fantasy there is not much out there besides GW-proxy and D&D
You probably have little knowledge of model ranges available if you think so.
Now I have better things to do than list all miniatures that are not made to be used in GW games or DnD so I just posted those you should know about already.
There are plenty of companys out there in 6mm,10mm,15mm,20mm who do outstanding work and the thought never crossed their mind ' Can this be used in a GW game?" once.
That´s because most of them are historical companies. Regarding SF/Fantasy there is not much out there besides GW-proxy and D&D
You probably have little knowledge of model ranges available if you think so...
Don't mean to jump on the bash-wagon, but there are tons of fantasy and sci-fi makers. The "D&D" statement isn't entirely fair. Most fantasy figs can be used with D&D but that's more about the huge scope of D&D than the interntion of the miniature maker.
Heres a few more makers and lines you should know about.
There are dozens of others and many more fantasy makers. If you get the itch to paint/collect something non-GW you can rejoice that you're smack in the middle of the golden age of miniatures.
Sorry, but they are quite small in comparison to GW, even PP. The only one that comes even close is Battlefront. Most of them are 1-3 men businesses. And quite some rely on their miniatures being used for D&D and GW (Reaper e.g. is staking his whole business on this)
All of the listed companies together don´t even make half of the sales GW does in half a year in one year. And even in comparison to the many small historical businesses their numer is very small. You don´t realize how big historical TT is.
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Sorry, but they are quite small in comparison to GW, even PP. The only one that comes even close is Battlefront. Most of them are 1-3 men businesses. And quite some rely on their miniatures being used for D&D and GW (Reaper e.g. is staking his whole business on this)
[Citation needed]
Since you're so happily making assertions, let's see the numbers.
Arent we getting off topic? If you want to talk about the profits and sizes of other companies then why not make a topic in the general discussion or something. At the end of the day, people buy miniatures and companies make miniatures. Some companies make them more obvious to D&D and GW gamers, some dont, in the end we all have fun!
Oh theres a little video of mantics new office. A bit pointless but for those who like to be in touch with these fellows
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Scipio you seem to want to find fault where there is none....
Unfortunately, your posts generally make me have little interest in your opinions - you're too much of a cheerleader.
squiggy - if they're likely to keep the cheap rulebooks available, then I'd have no objection to the hardback. I like physical books, though I'm not a huge fan of being required to purchase expansive ones. If the 5 quid ones remain available, then I think it's a good compromise/result.
Isn´t it nice how some fall always back to names-calling when they lack arguments.
I actually don´t care what some think of me. I do work in this business, I do know where I stand and it earns me my daily Fish&Chips. Those who really care do know how reliable my numbers are, the rest, well if it strokes their ego being able to look down on others I am at least happy that I can provide them wih some good vibes .
@Kenshin
If you know what to look for the clip is full of interesting details... ... and they seem to have a rat infestation problem....
scipio.au wrote:
squiggy - if they're likely to keep the cheap rulebooks available, then I'd have no objection to the hardback. I like physical books, though I'm not a huge fan of being required to purchase expansive ones. If the 5 quid ones remain available, then I think it's a good compromise/result.
I agree, I'm really happy with the current £5 softback and hope it remains!
Duncan_Idaho wrote:If you know what to look for the clip is full of interesting details... ... and they seem to have a rat infestation problem....
Duncan_Idaho wrote:Sorry, but they are quite small in comparison to GW, even PP. The only one that comes even close is Battlefront. Most of them are 1-3 men businesses. And quite some rely on their miniatures being used for D&D and GW (Reaper e.g. is staking his whole business on this)
All of the listed companies together don´t even make half of the sales GW does in half a year in one year. And even in comparison to the many small historical businesses their numer is very small. You don´t realize how big historical TT is.
Don't sidestep the issue. You didn't start by saying anythign about the size of the companies, sales figures, etc. You said.
Regarding SF/Fantasy there is not much out there besides GW-proxy and D&D
And in response we showed you there is a multitude of products out there that are not GW or D&D proxys.
I'm not asking for some kind of apology. Just rejoice for today your eyes have been opened to the glory of the incredible diversity that is Sci-Fi and Fantasy Miniatures!
Did...did you just write all that in the very same post in which you had to explain a term you had invented whole-cloth? Well done, sir. I bow to your trolling.
frozenwastes wrote:You need to revisit your studies of plastic science...*snip*
I apologise for not correcting this misconception when you raised it previously. Yes, 'resin' is used within the plastics manufacturing industry to refer to polymers before the final forming operation(s), at which point they become 'plastics'. No, this does not invalidate the use outside the industry of 'resin' to refer to thermosetting polymers and thermosets (nor the use within the modelmaking industry of 'plastic' to refer to thermoplastics only, though that is admittedly problematic). It should also be obvious why this cannot be the definition that Mantic is using. Have a cookie for discovering a context in which PVC can be considered a resin, lose a cookie for failing to realise that this would make PS a resin as well. Also lose a cookie for referring to PVC resin as a liquid; though the powder is available as an emulsion you appear to have simply garbled together the two definitions of 'resin'.
Actually there are some PVC resin that are delivered in liquid form as I can witness every time I visit a certain factory where a friend of mine works. There are also ones in powder-form.
Always depends and with new plastics developed virtually evey day no big deal either.
I love them.
He is by far a 
I thought you always checked the sources yourself? Shame on you.
