candy.man wrote:@Warboss Now list the amount of loyalist models that have been updated since 2E
Seriously though, most of the current CSM models listed above originated from third edition either as new kits or updates to existing ones. The CSM kit that appeared in 4E is in fact the same one from 3E but with an additional sprue. The two generic Chaos Lord in power armour miniatures that appeared during third edition were the same model, with the second one having an alternate weapon and head sculpted on (the same model was also sculpted as a fantasy Chaos Lord). The Night Lords Hero and Iron Warriors Warsmith appear to have also been sculpted from the same model.
The only 100% new models that came in 4E as far as I am aware was the plastic terminator lord, plastic terminators, plastic possessed, Huron Blackheart, World Eaters Aspiring Champion and Khorne Lord (I listed possessed as a new kit as the previous incarnation of possessed was a mutation frame included with the generic CSM kit, not necessarily a true possessed kit).
Hopefully if CSM get any new kits for 6th, it’s a new kit and not a recycled one. As Vaktathi has sort of said, the current CSM range needs to be “refreshed” IMO given the large legacy presence and lack of change amongst the range since 2E/3E.
The updated chaos versions of the current rhino (and to a lesser extent, the landraider) came near the end of 3rd. The defiler also came out about a year after the chaos codex v2.0 in 3rd edition in the last few months of 3rd. Since the current codex didn't actually include any new vehicles for chaos at all, they didn't get any new kits. So, for the 4th edition codex (which is admittedly bland), they got several new plastic kits, a modified core kit (similar to loyalist marines getting a new accessory sprue), and a few metal models... almost standard (other than the lack of any new vehicles making it on the light side) for a codex redo. My point wasn't that they don't need more stuff replaced and/or added new with a rumored upcoming codex, it was that the "Woe is me!! My army is mostly 2nd edition!" is completely false.
When you get a new codex, you only get a limited amount of new or redone kits to go with it (unless you've been sitting completely unchanged for 10+ years like necrons and dark eldar). Priority for those changes should go to the plastic kits and metal models that need it most and true 2nd edition models should be on the top of that list IMO (abby and kharn specifically). Frankly, I don't see the standard CSM getting a redo when there are many other plastic kits that simply need it a hell of alot more (older cult troops like bezerkers and plague marines). Chaos terminators have a crappy set of options but the kit is nice on detail and they could do with an extra or retooled accessory sprue to give them more standard weapons if they're not getting rolled into one kit with obliterators; a straight up solitary redo is highly unlikely. Throw in the obligatory metal to completely plastic kit changeover (like raptors for instance) and the one or two new releases in plastic form and you've got a full plastic roll out for a new codex (4-6 plastic kits) . GW simply won't redo the entire line so clamoring for it is pointless... on the tiny chance that someone is actually listening on the interwebs for fan feedback advice, we should be picking our battles instead of fighting for every force org choice to be updated.
warboss wrote: ... [O]n the tiny chance that someone is actually listening on the interwebs for fan feedback advice, we should be picking our battles instead of fighting for every force org choice to be updated.
Castiel wrote:It was indeed. It was released with Apocalypse, alongside the SM one.
Then I guess things have been less bleak than presented here (and even less than my rebuttal to the moaning).
CpatTom wrote:
warboss wrote: ... [O]n the tiny chance that someone is actually listening on the interwebs for fan feedback advice, we should be picking our battles instead of fighting for every force org choice to be updated.
Oh, what a wonderful thought that is.
Yeah, I generally file that with Santa and the Tooth Fairy but a man/modeller/40k fanboy can dream!
aka_mythos wrote:The unfortunate problem with the Chaos minis is that they haven't received serious attention since 2nd edition. So many of chaos' sculpts have been done by new sculptors where the miniatures were their first go at a production piece. So between disappointing sculpts and codex, chaos has been pretty short changed.
General Chaos Marines, Raptors (twice), Obliterators (twice), Defiler, rhino and land raider update accessory sprues, Huron Blackheart, Lucius, Typhus, Chaos Lord in Terminator Armor, Chaos Terminators, greater and lesser daemons (albeit now generic but still remodeled twice nontheless), thousand sons, noise marines, daemon prince (three times!!), possessed marines (twice), chaos spawn, doomrider, chaos lord in power armor (three new model variants), and havocs have all been redone AFTER 2nd edition (mostly in 3rd but a fair amount in 4th and one or two in 5th). While there are a few 2nd edition models (mostly HQ characters and some cult troops), the problem is no where near as bad as you claim. Can they use some updating? Sure (Abaddon and Kharne... I'm looking at you!).. does the majority of the line need it? No.
I think you misunderstood me, I'm saying that the quality of the effort GW's put into Chaos space marines is below par, relative to what other factions got, model wise, during the respective edition. The fact that they have had to redo so many kits is exactly why we don't have more new kits.
The general chaos space marines, the sculptor had openly admitted that the vast majority was just a reworked loyalist tactical squad, with him sculpting new detail and bits and that it was his first kit. It seriously lacks chaos flavor for that reason... every set of chaos space marines that preceded them are more characteristically chaos... GW might as well have done add-on sprues like they had for Space Wolves, black templar, and Dark Angels.
Raptors and Obliterators, the first versions were also early attempts at production pieces by their respective sculptors... the original obliterators weren't even sculpted just alot of sandwiched plasticard. The fact they had to be revisited later on underscores the lack of seriousness that was taken in having so many rookies working on chaos and diverted resources later on in correcting those poor miniatures with newer sculpts.
Its incredibly frustrating... how many times must GW redo possessed marines before they get them right?
Chaos Space Marines, is a set that only has 2 truly unique vehicle kits, the defiler and the chaos dreadnought... GW will have given loyalists 6 plastic dreadnoughts in the time its taken that one of two vehicle kits to be redone. The fact that all the other vehicles are chaos add-on sprue plus a loyalist vehicle, should have been a shortcut to allow GW to do more with Chaos, instead its been a shortcut to do less.
Also, the fact that daemons were split from Chaos Space Marines, greatly diminished the amount of time and effort that went into the Chaos Space Marine miniatures released with that most recent codex; since that choice was made after they started sculpting the miniatures. Chaos Space Marines went from being expected to be happy sharing models with one army to being expected to be happy sharing models with a second... meanwhile unless the rumors are correct I suspect it will only again be used as a crutch to justify putting less effort into Chaos Space Marines.
I also hope that Chaos gets a proper treatment this time around, as I personally feel that their range have to be spiced up with FW stuff to be interesting and unique at all, mostly because all their standard models are either a bit uninspired or just outright outdated. I have been positively suprised by GW recently, with a proper release for both Necrons and Dark Eldar, and even the missing minatures in the fantasy Beastmen range have now been released, so I actually have my hopes up for a proper chaos release if they don't lose steam on the way.
Ostrakon wrote:"Okay, so the bad guys will be ruled by 4 evil gods, and..."
"One of them should totally put boobs on everything!"
"..."
"..."
" brilliant!"
If that's what you think of the concept of Slaanesh, you don't understand it at all.
aka_mythos wrote:Its incredibly frustrating... how many times must GW redo possessed marines before they get them right?
What exactly is wrong with the current ones?
They're way better than what possessed used to be, but they're still goofy. Tyranids look dangerous, possessed look clowny. The fact that they are plastic multipose makes none of their poses look cool.
aka_mythos wrote:Its incredibly frustrating... how many times must GW redo possessed marines before they get them right?
What exactly is wrong with the current ones?
They're way better than what possessed used to be, but they're still goofy. Tyranids look dangerous, possessed look clowny. The fact that they are plastic multipose makes none of their poses look cool.
I have to agree that some of the kit looks silly, but there are some great pieces too. I'd agree with Deathly Angel in seeing it as a box of upgrade parts for other marines.
I actually think the possessed CAN look cool, just takes a bit of work and forethought. I also mixed in a few parts fromt he Forgeworld World Eaters kit and that seemed to help 'em a bit.
aka_mythos wrote:Its incredibly frustrating... how many times must GW redo possessed marines before they get them right?
What exactly is wrong with the current ones?
They're way better than what possessed used to be, but they're still goofy. Tyranids look dangerous, possessed look clowny. The fact that they are plastic multipose makes none of their poses look cool.
Yep pretty much this. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with the indivdual bitz, infact alot of these bits have the sort of detail I think basic chaos space marines should have, but as a kit to represent Possessed they're goofy and lack the type of cohesive appearance needed for a group of models to look like its an actual unit.
aka_mythos wrote:Its incredibly frustrating... how many times must GW redo possessed marines before they get them right?
What exactly is wrong with the current ones?
They're way better than what possessed used to be, but they're still goofy. Tyranids look dangerous, possessed look clowny. The fact that they are plastic multipose makes none of their poses look cool.
Yep pretty much this. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with the indivdual bitz, infact alot of these bits have the sort of detail I think basic chaos space marines should have, but as a kit to represent Possessed they're goofy and lack the type of cohesive appearance needed for a group of models to look like its an actual unit.
But they're possessed; they're not supposed to look cohesive. I agree they do look kind of goofy and not that menacing, but they do provide a lot of options and are probably one of the lowest priority to be updated.
That and surely the alternative to plastic multi-post is finecast?
Just Dave wrote:But they're possessed; they're not supposed to look cohesive. I agree they do look kind of goofy and not that menacing, but they do provide a lot of options and are probably one of the lowest priority to be updated.
That and surely the alternative to plastic multi-post is finecast?
First I don't have a problem with finecast, for all its faults I think its easier to work with than metal.
Second, don't get me wrong, I understand they're not suppose to look uniform, but there are ways to make them look like they belong in the same unit and thats what I mean by cohesive.
GW has more problems with possessed than just their non-cohesive appearance. Its this wild unit of chaos marines with a whole slew of different possession manifestations... and whose rules have never really worked. They are frankly one of the least intimidating elite choices both ruleswise and modelwise. I think possessed are a concept that need to be reimagined. They shouldn't just be "boo! I'm scary cause I've got a tentacle, and he has a horns and a wing." Where do they actually fit in. They've always struck me as something that should be more indicative of Aspiring champions and an upgrade than any sort of unit, precisely because they aren't cohesive. They are next of kin to chaos... they should be that intermediate stage of daemon between daemon prince and normal marine, a blending of the advantages of lesser daemons and chaos space marines. How cool would they become if they were rewritten as those who failed to control a daemon weapon in their grab for power.
It is a conflict of concepts that if resolved would help the Possessed unit out immensly. Are they just lesser chaos spawn with power armor or are they more similiar to daemon princes, lesser daemons, and chaos space marines.
GW has shown how to do non-cohesive units with Inquisitorial Henchmen and DE beastmasters as well as others, and I'm hoping they try to bring that into the Possessed. It would make far more sense for predefine possessed archetypes representing specific types of mutations are purchased bring to the unit not just their own particular stats but rules that contribute to the unit. And going back to my original point GW has managed to make many of these non-uniform units have enough of a cohesive appearance as to look like they belong together.
Frankly the kit was designed in this motley crew manner because you roll for a random effect at the start of each game. Having a model to represent each possibility is the easiest/best way to do this. I honestly hope they spend their time else where on units that need it most like the trashy Obliterator models who ACTUALLY get fielded.
As far as the fluff goes, you may want to reread it a bit, lesser rank and file get possessed all the time by lesser demons, they do rituals to provoke the chance it happens. This has nothing to do with being elevated to the status of demon prince or champions bearing mutations as gifts, those are entirely different occurrences. The later two are rewards given directly from the Gods and have nothing to do with possession.
I always liked the idea of possessed and would like to see them become more effective in game. A possibility could be like in 'The First Heretic' when the Gal Vorbak give the impression of becoming stronger and more daemon-like the more they fight, it could work kind of like pain tokens for DE, killing a unit leads to increased stats.
I doubt they will get a new kit but if they did I would quite like them to be larger to give a more imposing image on the battlefield.
Killmaimburnkillmaimburn wrote:I always liked the idea of possessed and would like to see them become more effective in game. A possibility could be like in 'The First Heretic' when the Gal Vorbak give the impression of becoming stronger and more daemon-like the more they fight, it could work kind of like pain tokens for DE, killing a unit leads to increased stats.
I doubt they will get a new kit but if they did I would quite like them to be larger to give a more imposing image on the battlefield.
That's actually a novel idea. I like it. They're already a bit larger than regular CSM due to the mutations sticking out all over the place. I had an idea of using some Possessed bits in a model of The Exalted for a Night Lords counts-as Blood Angels force. He'd be Mephiston
Whilst I think the current possessed kit is pretty good and has some great conversion bits to not necessarily warrant replacing, I’ll will also agree that the kit itself is somewhat flawed.
The problem I think is that a lot of the pieces are somewhat goofy (goofy grins and goofy poses) and don’t really resemble any of the 40k daemons/daemonic mutations I’m familiar with. If anything, they look more like “Tyranid” mutations rather than “Chaos Daemon” mutations.
Ideally, if the kit was redone, they would need to have bits to make the bits look more menacing. The mutation bits themselves would need to better resemble Chaos Daemons in terms of style. Interestingly enough, I reckon GW could meet us halfway and just an additional frame to the current possessed sprue to give more modelling choices as well as wargear options (if 6E possessed has them)
candy.man wrote:Whilst I think the current possessed kit is pretty good and has some great conversion bits to not necessarily warrant replacing, I’ll will also agree that the kit itself is somewhat flawed.
The problem I think is that a lot of the pieces are somewhat goofy (goofy grins and goofy poses) and don’t really resemble any of the 40k daemons/daemonic mutations I’m familiar with. If anything, they look more like “Tyranid” mutations rather than “Chaos Daemon” mutations.
Ideally, if the kit was redone, they would need to have bits to make the bits look more menacing. The mutation bits themselves would need to better resemble Chaos Daemons in terms of style. Interestingly enough, I reckon GW could meet us halfway and just an additional frame to the current possessed sprue to give more modelling choices as well as wargear options (if 6E possessed has them)
That'd be pretty good. I could see that working. More upgrade sprues could easily be a solution to a lot of old chaos kits like the terminators
Red Corsair wrote:
As far as the fluff goes, you may want to reread it a bit, lesser rank and file get possessed all the time by lesser demons, they do rituals to provoke the chance it happens. This has nothing to do with being elevated to the status of demon prince or champions bearing mutations as gifts, those are entirely different occurrences. The later two are rewards given directly from the Gods and have nothing to do with possession.
I understand what you're saying and I wasn't saying that possessed should be like daemon princes... Its more a commentary on the fact that Possessed are an over loaded concept... they are elites, lesser daemons are just troops, amd daemon princes HQ... that there is a discontinuity with regard to that hierarchy of abilities. By virtue of being elite they can't really be rank and file... in general its exposure to the chaos that causes possession and mutation and duration is part of that. Both for that and their categorization as elites, Possessed should have more in common to veterans than being regarded as rank and file who have mutated. I was proposing GW reconsider the notion of Possessed by both better representing aspiring champions as chaos space marines on the the intermediate stage towards daemon princehood... and the more rank and file Possessed being a less random unit that actually is a worthwhile elite choice. As you point out Possessed are Marine+lesser daemon... so why can't their rules be as simple as that as that certainly would make them more elite than they are at present.
aka_mythos wrote:GW has shown how to do non-cohesive units with Inquisitorial Henchmen and DE beastmasters as well as others, and I'm hoping they try to bring that into the Possessed. It would make far more sense for predefine possessed archetypes representing specific types of mutations are purchased bring to the unit not just their own particular stats but rules that contribute to the unit. And going back to my original point GW has managed to make many of these non-uniform units have enough of a cohesive appearance as to look like they belong together.
Actually I think that is a good idea and a good way to make them more interesting rules wise. If you could choose from a couple of different predetermined categories of mutations, costing different amount of points, you could eliminate the randomness and also have a good reason for at more coherent looking unit.
For example you could give a number of Posessed in a unit poison 3+ for something like a couple of points per guy you choose to give it to, and have this represented by poisonous fangs, claws, etc.
GW might actually go this way, as they have already found out from GK that making elite units have a lot of choice is a good idea.
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Samus_aran115 wrote:
candy.man wrote:Whilst I think the current possessed kit is pretty good and has some great conversion bits to not necessarily warrant replacing, I’ll will also agree that the kit itself is somewhat flawed.
The problem I think is that a lot of the pieces are somewhat goofy (goofy grins and goofy poses) and don’t really resemble any of the 40k daemons/daemonic mutations I’m familiar with. If anything, they look more like “Tyranid” mutations rather than “Chaos Daemon” mutations.
Ideally, if the kit was redone, they would need to have bits to make the bits look more menacing. The mutation bits themselves would need to better resemble Chaos Daemons in terms of style. Interestingly enough, I reckon GW could meet us halfway and just an additional frame to the current possessed sprue to give more modelling choices as well as wargear options (if 6E possessed has them)
That'd be pretty good. I could see that working. More upgrade sprues could easily be a solution to a lot of old chaos kits like the terminators
Again a really good solution, both for GW and for us. If they spend time on completely reworking the current plastic kits, we will probably not see many new models, so releasing legion or allignment specific plastic upgrade sprues for CSM and Terminators, like FW did some years ago(Death Guard, World Eaters), just in plastic and with all factions. This solution would be so quick that they also would have time to release serveral new kits and update the important metal ones, like Havocs and Obliterators.
Slayer le boucher wrote:
Plastic you have the feel that it could sustain heavy pressure before snapping, wich is reassuring, but Finecast...
You "feel" and "reassuring"...I think this line underscores 90% of peoples concern for Finecast materially, in the sense you demonstrate its largely psychological and not based on any emperical consideration.
I don't think we need to derail another thread on this subject, but its simply "strong enough" and its weight and flexibility are its greatest strengths. Its an elastic material so it won't dent as easily, its light so it won't fall apart under its own weight. Is it plastic?-No but at the lower sales volume of finecast, if you could magically do them in plastic would end up costing you twice as much, just because of the distributed cost of the molds. If 90's popculture taught us anything, sometimes good enough is good enough.
candy.man wrote:Whilst I think the current possessed kit is pretty good and has some great conversion bits to not necessarily warrant replacing, I’ll will also agree that the kit itself is somewhat flawed.
The problem I think is that a lot of the pieces are somewhat goofy (goofy grins and goofy poses) and don’t really resemble any of the 40k daemons/daemonic mutations I’m familiar with. If anything, they look more like “Tyranid” mutations rather than “Chaos Daemon” mutations.
Ideally, if the kit was redone, they would need to have bits to make the bits look more menacing. The mutation bits themselves would need to better resemble Chaos Daemons in terms of style. Interestingly enough, I reckon GW could meet us halfway and just an additional frame to the current possessed sprue to give more modelling choices as well as wargear options (if 6E possessed has them)
That'd be pretty good. I could see that working. More upgrade sprues could easily be a solution to a lot of old chaos kits like the terminators
Again a really good solution, both for GW and for us. If they spend time on completely reworking the current plastic kits, we will probably not see many new models, so releasing legion or allignment specific plastic upgrade sprues for CSM and Terminators, like FW did some years ago(Death Guard, World Eaters), just in plastic and with all factions. This solution would be so quick that they also would have time to release serveral new kits and update the important metal ones, like Havocs and Obliterators.
I don't know but the mutations in that box set were miles apart from the old mutations sprue. Thats just my opinion at least. I've used the heads, shoulder pads, wings (for my raptors) and arms on marines all over my force. I do agree they need to revamp the HW for Chaos as they haven't seen new models since 2nd edition.
Bonde wrote:
I don't know but the mutations in that box set were miles apart from the old mutations sprue. Thats just my opinion at least. I've used the heads, shoulder pads, wings (for my raptors) and arms on marines all over my force. I do agree they need to revamp the HW for Chaos as they haven't seen new models since 2nd edition.
The Havocs are a 3rd ed kit, so they're not as old as the 2nd ed stuff Chaos has (dreadnoughts namely) but they're still horrible hybrid kits from hell. I like the designs for the most part but metal bits are a nightmare.
Rule wise, I can only the henchmen/mixed bag approach work if the kit was redone with predefined types of possessed being established in the profile. This is sort of too much effort for little gain. Knowing GW, they would probably discontinue the current possessed box and offer new individual blisters in finecast to capitalise on sales.
Personally, if I were to redesign possessed, I’d make their profiles a hybrid between Death Company and 3.5 possessed. They would be able to choose what possessed upgrades they want (like 3.5 possessed) but at the same time would also have inbuilt USRs in their profile (fearless & FNP) as well as being able to by close combat weapon upgrades (like Deathcompany). To mix things up a bit, I’d also use unique bufs for the possessed upgrades instead of USRs.
nosferatu1001 wrote:Theyre unlikely to drop an existing plastic kit (possessed) as it wont have made back its sunk costs as yet
Id expect no change in kit, simple economics
Sunk costs... those are by definition expenses where there are no expectations of making back what they cost. So if GW were to have written off the plastic kit as a sunk cost, that is to admit that kits financial failure and inability to sell enough to every be worth while. This is exactly when GW would want to redesign a kit, or add to it, to try and sell it better. If the kit can't make money, and its a sunk cost, you're crazy to continue to produce; you'd be throwing good money after bad, when there is zero percent chance of every making it back.
AKA - erm, no. Sunk costs are past expenditures that have already been incurred, so there is no way to recover any expenses from it (as i doubt you can salvage a sprue mould....)
When one determines something is a "sunk cost" its a retrospective determination that you can't make back that investment. That part is semantic.
The main point is, regardless of the money GW's spent, if a kit isn't selling well enough to pay off the investment and make a reasonable return, they shouldn't continue funding it.
Or they could simply make a rule change so they're not awful as they have been for 2 editions.. Models that have decent rules sell kits, it's a fact that Im amazed GW hasn't gotten yet (I'll never understand why they put total garbage units in books)
Bonde wrote:
I don't know but the mutations in that box set were miles apart from the old mutations sprue. Thats just my opinion at least. I've used the heads, shoulder pads, wings (for my raptors) and arms on marines all over my force. I do agree they need to revamp the HW for Chaos as they haven't seen new models since 2nd edition.
The Havocs are a 3rd ed kit, so they're not as old as the 2nd ed stuff Chaos has (dreadnoughts namely) but they're still horrible hybrid kits from hell. I like the designs for the most part but metal bits are a nightmare.
That was me - I thought the auto cannons were still the 2nd edition scuplt which came out the quarter before 3rd edition. Thats when I started buying my chaos marine heavies at least. I only recently updated and bought into the new Obliterators as the old ones were just fine
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tarnish wrote:
Samus_aran115 wrote:
tarnish wrote:Boyd: Why only quote without a personal comment, and then get the quotes mixed up? Whats that supposed to convey?
It was a mistake, lol. He probably started typing and didn't realize the /quote was in front of him
Ill poke away until he finds the edit button or answers that himself
You can poke me or PM me all you want, I only check the site on my lunch break or when I'm working out of town in the evenings Otherwise, I check the post within the next day or two. Good thing it wasn't a weekend or it wouldn't get changed until Monday
aka_mythos wrote:When one determines something is a "sunk cost" its a retrospective determination that you can't make back that investment. That part is semantic.
The main point is, regardless of the money GW's spent, if a kit isn't selling well enough to pay off the investment and make a reasonable return, they shouldn't continue funding it.
I love how you are making these outlandish claims. First how do you figure the possessed kit isn't selling well? Second, if they have already "sunk" cost into their initial investment in the form of molds and packaging it makes more sense to continue production until they clime out of the red or until the kit doesn't sell. Now, considering the kit is still available I have to assume it IS selling well enough. Most chaos players a game with, myself included, find that kit invaluable for the bits alone. I can't even count how many sorcerer/raptor conversions I've seen with the wings alone.
In regards to the rules, I don't think just because they are an elite choice merits them needing OP rules or a nonrandom mutation. The rules work fine as is and represent their unpredictable nature, what would you suggest? moving them to troops? Right, because their aren't 5 options and off chart lesser demons already... Oh wait. Just because something resides in a certain spot in the FOC doesn't mean it has to play out like a unit of purifiers ;p If you pigeon hole them and give them a set rule effect or allow to upgrade them however you like then they lose character but also they compete with other units. "hey I want possessed that all fly!" Then just take raptors.
As far as I know, ALL plastic kits sell decently. GW puts a lot of research into the kits that could be converted into plastic, and they make sure they aren't wasting money on it.... In 40k at least. Fantasy has all sorts of dumb plastic kits that aren't necessary. But I'm probably underestimating how many people play fantasy compared to 40k, right?
It seams to me that a plastic tervigon kit would have out-performed the plastic ravenor kit that GW produced instead. Of course this is just my "gut reaction".
wyomingfox wrote:It seams to me that a plastic tervigon kit would have out-performed the plastic ravenor kit that GW produced instead. Of course this is just my "gut reaction".
Yeah, really. I don't know what they were thinking with that one. Ravagers have always been crap The wartrakk, warbuggy and flash gits come to mind as well. And sort of seekers of slaanesh, although those are better in fantasy from what I've heard.
aka_mythos wrote:When one determines something is a "sunk cost" its a retrospective determination that you can't make back that investment. That part is semantic.
The main point is, regardless of the money GW's spent, if a kit isn't selling well enough to pay off the investment and make a reasonable return, they shouldn't continue funding it.
I love how you are making these outlandish claims. First how do you figure the possessed kit isn't selling well? Second, if they have already "sunk" cost into their initial investment in the form of molds and packaging it makes more sense to continue production until they clime out of the red or until the kit doesn't sell.
First I haven't made outlandish claims they sound a lot like what you're saying, I'm simply including a correction in what I believe was an incorrect choice of words... Everything I said about the cost and sales of Possessed has been proceeded by "if" which means I'm posing a hypothetical situation where sales are poor.
Second, my assertion was that "IF" GW determined it could not climb out of the red on an individual kit, that's when they'd be forced to make a decision to promote sales, by either modifying the kits composition, or replacing it, or as other have said change the rules (ie its marketing). The past costs might motivate their choice, but it shouldn't alter the fact that they should make some choice of some sort.
I'm arguing against a common but false notion, what is called in textbooks the "sunk cost fallacy" it is the irrational belief that just because one has incured a cost in the past, they should exploit it. That the rational thought should be "what will give me the best return in the future?"
My background is R&D program management and while we make investments, declaring something a "sunk cost" carries repercussions and that nomenclature isn't something that is automatically applied to a cost just because it occured in the past, so maybe I'm being overly beauracratic about how I'm reading the phrase. That's why I've tried to emphasize the fact my main point was the part about what prompts a decision making process.
Red Corsair wrote:[
In regards to the rules, I don't think just because they are an elite choice merits them needing OP rules or a nonrandom mutation. The rules work fine as is and represent their unpredictable nature, what would you suggest? moving them to troops? Right, because their aren't 5 options and off chart lesser demons already... Oh wait. Just because something resides in a certain spot in the FOC doesn't mean it has to play out like a unit of purifiers ;p If you pigeon hole them and give them a set rule effect or allow to upgrade them however you like then they lose character but also they compete with other units. "hey I want possessed that all fly!" Then just take raptors.
I'm not saying they should be over powered; I'm saying they should make more sense within the context of the edition and of the codex; to be viable.
I'm not saying "mor power" because they're "elite"... I'm saying there abilities should be in continuity with the spectrum of units that represent similar aspects of chaos; the fact they are "Elite" shoudn't be taken as the justification as much as it should be taken as a sympotm of that continuity. You have lesser daemons and you have daemon princes; one shows lesser daemons on their own, a daemon prince shows how a past mortal achieving daemonhood makes for something impressive. Possessed are somewhere in between; lesser daemons bound to mortal flesh. The sentiment is they should be more than lesser daemons because otherwise why would a daemon ever bind itself to a mortal if not for a gain in power. That GW hasn't taken their concept far enough. There are different ways variaty could be given to the unit and I've commented on them, but its not a proposal and I have no preference towards any particular proposed rule composition others have made. My idea the one I have pushed for is a unit that mirrors the Dark Eldar beastmaster's menagerie of monsters... where you have fixed form archetypes to choose from representing different common possession manifestations, not based on the "big 4", thus allowing for a heterogeneous mixture of possessed with character rather than a homogenous blob with options.
Simply put random rules should be removed not because of "Elite" status they should be removed because they're antiquated.
I'm going to say that if the Possessed aren't selling well - something I'll have to put up a [citation needed] notice next to - then it'll be because of their horrific rules. Rag on Pete Haines all you like, but one of the things he got right with the 3.5 Codex was taking the randomness away from the Possessed and giving them a list of abilities you could buy. It turned a useless unit into one that could hold its own (but had crappy models). Now they're a unit with great models (aside from a few dud grinning head sculpts) but a set of rules that do not do them justice.
GW is always quick to point out that "Chaos =/= Random", yet here we have a unit that is afflicted by Chaos more than any other Chaos unit aside from Daemons and Oblits, and yet they are random.
Personally, when I designed my fandex I made possessed so whilst Random, their randomised abilities were typically more powerful, occured pre-deployment and were all of a similar (CC specialised) vein, whilst you could purchase marks to A) gain the bonus of that Mark of Chaos and/or B) replace the randomised Daemonkin ability with a slightly less powerful version provided by a mark of Chaos (with MoCU benefiting +1 to the Daemonkin chart).
I'm not saying this is the perfect solution, but it seemed to be popular, powerful and balanced, whilst being either: A) Slightly more randomised, but more powerful, or B) slightly more expensive, but reliable. All whilst maintaining a powerful base stat-line and Daemonkin occurring pre-deployment.
Stoic means, that they can't do a sweeping advance or did I misunderstand that?
That's the correct definition as far as I understand. They get something like true grit as well.
They can't rely entirely on the Marks, though, because there are still 5 Legions that don't have a god. I don't see why it can't be done like the 3.5 Chaos dex where you do just pick from the 9 Legions when making your army and pay for it appropriately.
5 legions that don't have a god you say?
Technically, Word Bearers have all gods. I'm not touching Alpha Legion with a barge pole. Night Lords use chaos to cause terror. Iron Warriors worship the dark machine kinda. And, well, Black Legion are kinda the generic we have our toe in each pool.
(...)
Iron Warriors use the dark machine like we use PCs.
Durza wrote:Alphas and Iron Warriors don't worship, Word Bearers and Black Legion worship whatever suits them, Night Lords are a bit of a grey area.
Not presently, fluff can change. The not touching Alpha's with a pole... to me means, they've changed their fluff. I really don't think its hard to draw a connection between the Iron Warrior's and the Dark Mechanicum... its not necessarily "worship" but its something close enough to represent something comparable to the other legions worship. Word Bearers and Black Legion may worship whatever suits them, but to what degree and to what end? Word Bearers institutionally worship all chaos gods equally, while the Black Legion doesn't have an institutionalized focal point and it seems more that they are open to allowing whatever worship aspiring champions want, which tends to be more singular.
Durza wrote:Alphas and Iron Warriors don't worship, Word Bearers and Black Legion worship whatever suits them, Night Lords are a bit of a grey area.
Not presently, fluff can change. The not touching Alpha's with a pole... to me means, they've changed their fluff. I really don't think its hard to draw a connection between the Iron Warrior's and the Dark Mechanicum... its not necessarily "worship" but its something close enough to represent something comparable to the other legions worship. Word Bearers and Black Legion may worship whatever suits them, but to what degree and to what end? Word Bearers institutionally worship all chaos gods equally, while the Black Legion doesn't have an institutionalized focal point and it seems more that they are open to allowing whatever worship aspiring champions want, which tends to be more singular.
Yeah like you said.
Back in 2Ed Realm of Chaos, Iron Warriors and Night Lords where Khorne whorshipping Legions,they had the MoK on all their banners and Legion Icons.
Its a proof that things can change with time.
It is of course established for the last 2 Editions that they are strictly Universal Chaos,but that might change who knows?
Also for the Possesed matter, a simple way to make them worth taking is simply to give them 2 Mutations.
At least if you get a mutation you don't like,you always have a second chance to have a usefull one.
When they where able to throw 3 dices for their Mutations, Possesed where a popular unit.
And goofy Mutations?...did you took a look at how mutations looked like in Realm of Chaos books?...you would know what goofy is...
I don't say that all the mutations are good, but calling it goofy...
Slayer le boucher wrote:Back in 2Ed Realm of Chaos, Iron Warriors and Night Lords where Khorne whorshipping Legions,they had the MoK on all their banners and Legion Icons.
Its a proof that things can change with time.
Small clarification - Realms of Chaos was a Rogue Trader book, not a second edition book.
You are right, though, in saying that things can (and do) change with time.
Update time:
First a post by theDarkGeneral with ghost21's comments added in orange
So more chat time with the boyz over on FB...
It sounds like we're getting a large upgrade to our current plight when it comes to vehicles and gear and equipment and special rules. Some will be current "Marine type" vehicles, but a few new ones. Yeah, there is a Chaos "flyer" but it's NOT the Hell Blade (or Hell Talon). Not a troop transport, just designed to cause havoc on entrenched enemy squads (hvy Flamers?).
Here's a list of what things we talked about, items with an evil grin are tentative...
*Power of the Machine Spirit/Infernal Engine possible
*Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer/?: possible
*They Shalt Know No Fear: No
*Fearless: (Cult Terminators, and a few specific Legions) certain units possibly
*Razorback: No
*Whirlwind: No
*Attack Bikes: (possibly with Reaper Autocannons) kind of
*Thunderfire Cannon: (Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion) they get something else, but kind of
*Landspeeder: sort of
*Artificer Armor: it's called something else
*Techmarines: (about half the Legions) kind of
*Chaplains: (Word Bearers) only Word bearers
*Psychic Hood: it's called something else
*Stormraven Gunship: No
*Venerable Dreads: only one that's a special character
BUT, we're definitely getting new Monstrous Creature (that's not a Summoned Greater Daemon), as well as Juggernaut ridden Berzerkers, and a retinue similar to Command Squads (which can take either Terminator Armor, Jump Packs, ride a Bike or Daemon Beast!)...though I'm not 100% on the riding Daemonic mounts for the Chosen Command Squad...
silent surrender wrote:I heard the new monstrous creature is called a "Rotzilla" any truth to that?
ghost21 wrote:I can see certain vehicles getting a chaos daemon engine equivalent but not exact copies. And that's all I can add on the matter (under penalty of catapult).
thank jeebus ghost said "kinda" to a few things cos like alot of chaos fans i feel we dont need a whirlwind (for example.. insert whichever loyalist USR/tank/gear here) we need a chaos slant.. a different tank, different look same role. I think thats all we really want something without spikes tacked on as an after thought
Chaos do refit some things but really all those deamon forgeworlds have to make something apart from those defilers.
Johnny-Crass wrote:Scariest sounding thing so far is a Juggernaut riding a beserker....
I wasn't aware Slaanesh and Khorne were starting to get along.
Kroothawk wrote:Update time:
First a post by theDarkGeneral with ghost21's comments added in orange
BUT, we're definitely getting new Monstrous Creature (that's not a Summoned Greater Daemon), as well as Juggernaut ridden Berzerkers, and a retinue similar to Command Squads (which can take either Terminator Armor, Jump Packs, ride a Bike or Daemon Beast!)...though I'm not 100% on the riding Daemonic mounts for the Chosen Command Squad...
Some decent tidbits but really not that telling. most of what the good general says here is really a given. Of course they cant use a stormraven.. that would make no sense.
if this is the level of info he feels safe sharing then id rather be without...
Fffff...the new flyer better fit in appearance-wise with Hell Blades or Hell Talons! I had an idea of making a squad of small Hell Blade-like flyers with Hurricane Bolters...
Johnny-Crass wrote:If kroothawk says it it must be true
Hey, I don't guarantee anything what theDarkGeneral and ghost21 post, I am just reporting.
Too late, Kroot! Now all the weight of your credibility has been imparted! If any of those tidbits prove false, be prepared to be run outsode of town and beaten with reeds. Not in that order, perhaps, but still!
There was a precedent in second ed and 3.5 for them tho champions rode them so chosen should be able to ride them as a unit they will be spendy tho blood crushers are 50 points each.
sonofruss wrote:There was a precedent in second ed and 3.5 for them tho champions rode them so chosen should be able to ride them as a unit they will be spendy tho blood crushers are 50 points each.
Oh I know there's a precedent - I've got that model! - but I always felt it was the kind've thing Champions would get, not rank & file troops. That said, it would nice to get a Khornate Champion on a modern Jugger. Hell, just take that amazing Fantasy Champ on Jugger and swap out the rider for a nice new Berzerker. End of story.
sonofruss wrote:There was a precedent in second ed and 3.5 for them tho champions rode them so chosen should be able to ride them as a unit they will be spendy tho blood crushers are 50 points each.
Oh I know there's a precedent - I've got that model! - but I always felt it was the kind've thing Champions would get, not rank & file troops. That said, it would nice to get a Khornate Champion on a modern Jugger. Hell, just take that amazing Fantasy Champ on Jugger and swap out the rider for a nice new Berzerker. End of story.
Exactly. GW just needs to design Bezerker riders and they are good to go. This would seem like a no brainer as long as the rules weren't garbage.
Johnny-Crass wrote:Scariest sounding thing so far is a Juggernaut riding a beserker....
A "juggernaut ridden berzerker" is not a juggernaut on a berzerker. It is a berzerker who is riding a juggernaut. {That's from a grammar perspective. The model might actually be a berzerker giving a juggernaut a piggy back ride, for all I know.}
Johnny-Crass wrote:Scariest sounding thing so far is a Juggernaut riding a beserker....
A "juggernaut ridden berzerker" is not a juggernaut on a berzerker. It is a berzerker who is riding a juggernaut. {That's from a grammar perspective. The model might actually be a berzerker giving a juggernaut a piggy back ride, for all I know.}
Cool. No venerable dreadnoughts, but who cares. If they lose Crazed they'd all be "venerable" in my eyes
Of course, 5 BS and WS is nice, but I have an inkling that legion dreadnoughts will be equivalent to venerables. Could be wrong, but that seems pretty likely.
Am I the only one who thinks that MOT should do more than +1 to your invul? Honestly, it could do so much better. That 4++ has never done anything to earn its points back. It should give -1 intiative and +1 BS in addition or something.
Last time thwe MOT made champions and up psykers and marines into rubric marines. I think the +1 inv save is abit better as thats what it basically was in 2nd edition. The MOK is the one thats gone through a few changes. Originally it gave you a 2+ armour save and something else
Everyone seems to disagree about a lot of things in regard to the new codex, but one thing we can all agree on is that a CSM with 10,000 years experience has to be better than the average astartes.
And make CSM look more warped and mutated. Goes without saying.
Berserkers riding Juggernauts is one of those units I've always dreamed of. I had the idea for kitbashing Bloodcrushers and Khorne Berserkers to make them and run them in a counts-as Thunderwolf cavalry list. I've never heard of the guy who put out this rumor before, but I like it regardless.
theDarkGeneral wrote:I think only a few peeps understood my previous post.
All the items I listed were just what we talked about in the differences between Chaos Legions and most Space Marine Legions. It's NOT a list of what's to come out. The items with a are possible/tentative to the new Codex.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote: but one thing we can all agree on is that a CSM with 10,000 years experience has to be better than the average astartes.
And make CSM look more warped and mutated. Goes without saying.
I have always disagreed with that, personally. In my view Crusade era astartes were mass produced to get the job done in a hurry and 40k's marines are individually "hand" crafted to a much higher standard. Also, keep in mind that not every Chaos Marine has been around since the heresy, even the Traitor legions have all had to replenish their ranks at some point with new blood. And if the Night Lord books are anything to go by, they haven't been fighting nonstop for the entirety of that 10,000 years, due to the peculiarities of warp travel and living in the Eye of Terror, the Crusade/Heresy still seems fairly recent to them. For those reasons, I'd say a basic vanilla marine is on equal footing with a basic chaos marine.
Conversely, I think cult troops and other elite elements of a Chaos Marine Army should be head and shoulders above a basic marine and possbly over some elite elements of loyalist marines, because of their particular skillsets, Chaos Marks and equipment.
NELS1031 wrote:I have always disagreed with that, personally. In my view Crusade era astartes were mass produced to get the job done in a hurry and 40k's marines are individually "hand" crafted to a much higher standard. Also, keep in mind that not every Chaos Marine has been around since the heresy, even the Traitor legions have all had to replenish their ranks at some point with new blood. And if the Night Lord books are anything to go by, they haven't been fighting nonstop for the entirety of that 10,000 years, due to the peculiarities of warp travel and living in the Eye of Terror, the Crusade/Heresy still seems fairly recent to them. For those reasons, I'd say a basic vanilla marine is on equal footing with a basic chaos marine.
Conversely, I think cult troops and other elite elements of a Chaos Marine Army should be head and shoulders above a basic marine and possbly over some elite elements of loyalist marines, because of their particular skillsets, Chaos Marks and equipment.
Just my 2 cents.
I almost completely agree.
I do think most CSM's are superior than loyalists, but I don't think it's to an extent that can easily be representing in the D6/max-stat-10 system.
Otherwise though; I agree with pretty much everything else you said.
Brother SRM wrote:Berserkers riding Juggernauts is one of those units I've always dreamed of. I had the idea for kitbashing Bloodcrushers and Khorne Berserkers to make them and run them in a counts-as Thunderwolf cavalry list. I've never heard of the guy who put out this rumor before, but I like it regardless.
Plastic Plague Marines.....must resist temptations of Chaos already got Necrons and Tau to do but, but Chaos was my 1st 40k army and I haven't been tempted by them since early 3rd ed. But I love Nurgle stuff....
Brother SRM wrote:Berserkers riding Juggernauts is one of those units I've always dreamed of. I had the idea for kitbashing Bloodcrushers and Khorne Berserkers to make them and run them in a counts-as Thunderwolf cavalry list. I've never heard of the guy who put out this rumor before, but I like it regardless.
Yeah, pretty much that exactly but in an official kit.
As for plastic Plague Marines, that's a great thought but I don't trust ghost21 on anything yet really. If Harry or someone else in the know confirms it though, I'm all aboard.
Brother SRM wrote:As for plastic Plague Marines, that's a great thought but I don't trust ghost21 on anything yet really. If Harry or someone else in the know confirms it though, I'm all aboard.
Yeah, it seems like a weird kit to make plastic when Forgeworld already has a (popular) kit and you have 1k Sons and Emperor's Children as mixed kits in need, without throwing in a Havoc/Dreadnought kit.
NELS1031 wrote:I have always disagreed with that, personally. In my view Crusade era astartes were mass produced to get the job done in a hurry and 40k's marines are individually "hand" crafted to a much higher standard. Also, keep in mind that not every Chaos Marine has been around since the heresy, even the Traitor legions have all had to replenish their ranks at some point with new blood. And if the Night Lord books are anything to go by, they haven't been fighting nonstop for the entirety of that 10,000 years, due to the peculiarities of warp travel and living in the Eye of Terror, the Crusade/Heresy still seems fairly recent to them. For those reasons, I'd say a basic vanilla marine is on equal footing with a basic chaos marine.
Conversely, I think cult troops and other elite elements of a Chaos Marine Army should be head and shoulders above a basic marine and possbly over some elite elements of loyalist marines, because of their particular skillsets, Chaos Marks and equipment.
Just my 2 cents.
I almost completely agree.
I do think most CSM's are superior than loyalists, but I don't think it's to an extent that can easily be representing in the D6/max-stat-10 system.
Otherwise though; I agree with pretty much everything else you said.
Perhaps they could get some special skills or rules or legion-specific wargear to mark them out as special. That would make sense, since their development would have been much more anarchic than even the weirdest loyalist astartes chapters.
I've been saying it for awhile but there's an easy way to fix most representation for chaos, and it owes a lot to Dark Eldar.
-Include Cultists as troops
-"Renegade" Chaos Marine entry as troops, access to SM codex weaponry, SM statline but no ATSKNF, follows min-max requirements, units of 5-20. May take an icon.
-"Legionnaires" Chaos Marine entry as troops, access to current CSM codex weaponry, improved WS5 or access to one of a few USRs, Stubborn, able to take 2 specials or in lieu of a heavy weapon, 1 special. Units of 5-10, may take an icon.
Then we can either go for full cult troop entries, or throw them into one entry with upgrades for the appropriate mark, or add it onto an existing entry as an upgrade (like my mentioned Legionnaires)
I think that would solve the problem of having "correct" representation if you have something like this for most entries. It's not perfect but I feel it goes a long way.
I neglected to mention how this would affect chosen, I still don't have a good idea on how to implement them, but I think they should be along the lines of paladins, and be mini deathstars of their own. maybe 1-5 and a slew of upgrades and abilities. It wouldn't be difficult to make them a step above Legionnaires without breaking them.
Two days ago I bought three of these guys from my FLGS for £8, would have paied double as they are fantastic models. Thats my aspiring champions sorted.
Two days ago I bought three of these guys from my FLGS for £8, would have paied double as they are fantastic models. Thats my aspiring champions sorted.
If you're looking my friend has around 45 he'd like to sell.
bhsman wrote:Yeah, it seems like a weird kit to make plastic when Forgeworld already has a (popular) kit and you have 1k Sons and Emperor's Children as mixed kits in need, without throwing in a Havoc/Dreadnought kit.
I have to agree here. There's no pressing need for a plastic Plague Marine kit. We have the metal/Finecost one, we've got Forge World's excellent conversion kit. Meanwhile 1KSons and Noise Marines have hybrid kits that simply need to be done away with and replaced with plastic kits.
lord_blackfang wrote:I wonder if they'll get individual wargear options for wound allocation shenanigans.
REALLY?
I'm kind of hoping that 6th ed gets rid of wound allocation shenanigans myself......
+1. its the most anal rule in 40k
Ill agree, though I also hate the removal of the M stat...everything moves 6 inches, except for this big list of stuff that is faster, oh and the things with this special rule (S&P) that move slower. For farks sake, just put the damned M stat back.
On the subject of these news/rumors...I like what I see...looking forward to lots of new minis. WIll also be looking toward the 6th ed rules too...maybe they will be fixed enough to get me back into using my 40k minis to actually play 40k.
I think that 1K Sons and Noise Marines are VERY likely to get a new kit because GW have been removing combi-kits from their range for quite some time, they are very rare nowadays. I still think that it is somewhat likely that PM's will get something new as they are very popular, and still have pretty outdated models.
If they get a proper PM kit, it will probably be in a very late wave, as GW tend to give less priority to models that have a FW version available from the beginning.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Samus_aran115 wrote:If chaos marines still looked like this, I think I would start dealing heroin to pay for them:
Wow, I would really like to see thoose models updated, they actually look like corrupt space marines that have lived in the EoT, instead of just angrier marines with spikes. The Chaos legions codex needs to be a little bit more elite, with a higher points cost, to represent marines with more combat experience and power of their gods.
bhsman wrote:Yeah, it seems like a weird kit to make plastic when Forgeworld already has a (popular) kit and you have 1k Sons and Emperor's Children as mixed kits in need, without throwing in a Havoc/Dreadnought kit.
I have to agree here. There's no pressing need for a plastic Plague Marine kit. We have the metal/Finecost one, we've got Forge World's excellent conversion kit. Meanwhile 1KSons and Noise Marines have hybrid kits that simply need to be done away with and replaced with plastic kits.
I think standard troops for an upcoming army should neither be metal nor Forge World only.
Anyway (although I don't understand everything he says, esp the thing in brackets that I keep as it is -> I usually correct spelling and grammar to improve readability):
ghost21 wrote:
I posted earlier wondering if the Thundefire Cannon like weapon you suggested might be the Thunderstrike Assault Gun.
Would you be able to confirm or deny that?
As far as I know, it's a "daemonic thing".
Were there any other special cult units like the Gladiator themed one you've already mentioned?
As I understand, there will be at least 1-2 additional units for the cult legions. There's a unit like the space wolf, wolf guard that all legions get.
(i think that's what there called the veteran guys who can choose different kit, i also think that's where those jugger riding zerkers may appear, this unit though can be upgraded in god specific lists to be "special" )
As far as I understand, these are special themed units , not just cult terminators.
The Thousand Sons get a really odd unit, of people who were powerful enough not to be hit by the rubic. I'll update that one later. I think they only get one (unless he wasn't joking about screamer surfing marines).
EC get a very defensive unit, who have like sonic shields.
Just a guess but zerkers riding juggers would probably be more like diversified wound allocation shenanigans bloodcrushers than TWC as juggers are slow.
Would allocation shenanigans are probably on their way out the door with 6th ed. One of the big 6th ed rumors I hear over and over again is every 5th wound is allocated by the attacker, or every 2nd wound from sniper weapons.
I also don't see any juggers riding bezerkers in the future, but fiends riding noise marines isn't unheard of on the planet Tijuana prime.
After the Tomb King snake riders, I could believe GW would do Screamer surfer Marines, but who knows.
Liking some of the rumour, not sure on other bits, regardless just hoping something happens this year so we can purge that current Chaos Marine Dex out of existance.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:After the Tomb King snake riders, I could believe GW would do Screamer surfer Marines, but who knows.
Liking some of the rumour, not sure on other bits, regardless just hoping something happens this year so we can purge that current Chaos Marine Dex out of existance.
There were Chaos Marines riding Discs in Epic. They had Lascannons and were like 2 per base. A unit card was 5 bases of them.
Morathi's Darkest Sin wrote:After the Tomb King snake riders, I could believe GW would do Screamer surfer Marines, but who knows.
Liking some of the rumour, not sure on other bits, regardless just hoping something happens this year so we can purge that current Chaos Marine Dex out of existance.
There's also a small bit of these guys in the 'Visions of Heresy' art books. I think it's very fitting for Tzeentch personally, I even thought of converting a few myself for a heresy-era force.
It gives them a fast unit without trying to shoehorn in something like bikes which doesn't seem to fit the 'warrior wizards' & 'wizardy egyptians' image of the 1k-sons.
Hopefully they won't be on actual screamers (which are rather large) and instead go back to disc riders like they used to have back in the glory days of the 3.5 codex.
Aaron Dempski-Bowden wrote:
The more rumours I check out, the more I see that are clearly false.
"Ghost21" seems to be the one spouting the most nonsense. Whether I was privy to actual Codex rumours or not is pretty irrelevant when there are several points I can flat-out say "Nope" to, in regards to how the IP department explains the fluff to us, and when the rumours are pretending to use characters that the codices are essentially not allowed to touch / wouldn't use without asking us what those characters' fates actually are.
There's even been several people at GDUK this year saying Mat Ward specifically said he's not writing to the Chaos Codex, yet ghost21 insists he is.
Seriously, don't get your hopes up over his rumours.
Aaron Dempski-Bowden wrote:
Whether I was privy to actual Codex rumours or not is pretty irrelevant when there are several points I can flat-out say "Nope" to, in regards to how the IP department explains the fluff to us, and when the rumours are pretending to use characters that the codices are essentially not allowed to touch / wouldn't use without asking us what those characters' fates actually are
Wonder where does the idea that GW has to ask anyone for anything in regards to their IP comes from? Not that I necessarily believe ghost's info or have any interest in defending him, but this is pretty funny, especially considering the recent Necron retcon throwing much of BL's work out the window.
aka_mythos wrote:When one determines something is a "sunk cost" its a retrospective determination that you can't make back that investment. That part is semantic.
The main point is, regardless of the money GW's spent, if a kit isn't selling well enough to pay off the investment and make a reasonable return, they shouldn't continue funding it.
Aaron Dempski-Bowden wrote:
Whether I was privy to actual Codex rumours or not is pretty irrelevant when there are several points I can flat-out say "Nope" to, in regards to how the IP department explains the fluff to us, and when the rumours are pretending to use characters that the codices are essentially not allowed to touch / wouldn't use without asking us what those characters' fates actually are
Wonder where does the idea that GW has to ask anyone for anything in regards to their IP comes from? Not that I necessarily believe ghost's info or have any interest in defending him, but this is pretty funny, especially considering the recent Necron retcon throwing much of BL's work out the window.
Add to this the whole William King dispute over Gotrek and Felix. They're not exactly known for asking BL authors for anything other than dealing with it tbh.
Aaron Dempski-Bowden wrote:
There's even been several people at GDUK this year saying Mat Ward specifically said he's not writing to the Chaos Codex, yet ghost21 insists he is.
I don't know, all rumors have multiple codices being worked on for chaos, and its too easy to imagine that even if ghost21 is incorrect in this detail, given the limited number of codex authors that Mat Ward would likely be working on one of the updates, and that all involved writers would be working with each other.
MasterSlowPoke wrote:There is literally no reason to believe anything ghost21 writes; don't try and defend him too much.
"Literally no reason"?-I do want to point out that some of what he's said has been supported by other more well esteemed rumor-mongers. So there is reson to believe some things, which is more than not believing anything.
If true, plastic plagues are a -huge- step toward a truly viable Legion-based codex. The current metal ones don't look terrible, but still lack weapon choices. The FW kit is grand but doesn't fix the issue of how you're going to build your squads. Meltas or flamers? Power Fist or combi-weapon?
And while that means people who sculpt and convert get to have a lot of fun, it goes against the recent releases that have a wealth of options (look at the GK terminator and Death Company kits) to really give you choices in assembling your whole force.
MasterSlowPoke wrote:There is literally no reason to believe anything ghost21 writes; don't try and defend him too much.
"Literally no reason"?-I do want to point out that some of what he's said has been supported by other more well esteemed rumor-mongers. So there is reson to believe some things, which is more than not believing anything.
I'd say there's a medium:
He's sometimes right, sometimes wrong. Apply a large amount of salt to what he says and you should be solid, or don't believe it without support from others.
However, many people seem to take his words as fact, which is troubling IMHO.
Just Dave wrote:
I'd say there's a medium:
He's sometimes right, sometimes wrong. Apply a large amount of salt to what he says and you should be solid, or don't believe it without support from others.
However, many people seem to take his words as fact, which is troubling IMHO.
And that's what I'm getting at. Being so absolute as to "he's completely right" or "he's completely wrong" is silly. Just the fact that its in a "rumours" thread in the "rumors" forum, it should be implicit that things aren't 100% factual and salt is in great abundance. People seem to lose sight on some inherent aspects to the fact we're discussing rumors... I'm glad that in many forums only saying "dose of salt" or the equivalent is now regarded as spamming... because simply its a given. Are there people on here who forget its a given yes and they're fools.
MasterSlowPoke wrote:There is literally no reason to believe anything ghost21 writes; don't try and defend him too much.
"Literally no reason"?-I do want to point out that some of what he's said has been supported by other more well esteemed rumor-mongers. So there is reson to believe some things, which is more than not believing anything.
Have you actually been keeping track of Ghost21's rumors? He promised a standalone Sisters codex (said he'd streak through London if it wasn't out by the end of the year), his Necron rumors were completely fase (and he said Yakface's rumors were totally off base). All he does is say things. The most correct thing he's ever hinted at can be summed up with the word "boats", and even that was with enough uncertainty to make him "safe" in case Dreadfleet was something different.
ghost21 just strikes me as another Stickmonkey: people tend to assume he's in the know because he posts a lot of rumors, but when their track record is brought up (Stickmonkey with his Nid rumors and ghost21 with his Necron stuff) they as well as anyone who feels the need to defend them fall back on the excuse of "Well they must've changed everything after I heard it" which kinda renders the whole point of taking them seriously moot.
When did people start to confuse rumors with fact?
Reliability of a source is a crapshoot, depending on where in the cycle the source gets the information.
The guys who are good enough to pass this stuff on know they have incomplete information, they tell us this.
But then there is the lynch mob that goes after the rumor sources whenever anything is the tiniest bit incorrect, when the book/models come out 6 months+ later.
As if they are giving incorrect info for funnsies.
To all the rumor-givers, thank you. It is appreciated.
To the naysayers, get over it. Rumors are rumors, not facts, not commandments, not sure bets.
Tasty from BoK has been wrong on some points before and did a review of his own GK rumors after the book had been released, and is deserving of your appreciation. But Ghost21 has just been bad, but because he posts 'rumors' we should be equally generous in doling out praise? There's nothing wrong with due criticism, yeesh.
If you don't like it then you should "get over it."
Rumor dudes like Harry, Hastings, Tasty, whoever supplied Yakface with his stuff, fgt, and the like are appreciated. Even if they're not accurate all the time (even Harry gets stuff wrong, ocassionally), they still let us know ideas of what's coming up,
Conversely, I don't appreciate rumor dudes like Ghost and Stickmonkey at all. They post all sorts of things that don't have any basis in reality, and aren't really letting us know what's going on. All they dude is confuse - for example, Ghost completely denies Tasty's 100% accurate rumor in that post BHSman linked. It's just a waste of everyone's time.
Worglock wrote: There were Chaos Marines riding Discs in Epic. They had Lascannons and were like 2 per base. A unit card was 5 bases of them.
They were kind of vicious.
Aye, I don't have an issue with Discs, that would be fine, if not actually quite nice to see some 40K models back on them. Screamers however aren't Disc's, haven't replaced them, and are something quite different. They might look fine, but I'd fear they'd look silly, in the same way I find the Tomb King fellas on snakes bizarre.
Experiment 626 wrote:
There's also a small bit of these guys in the 'Visions of Heresy' art books. I think it's very fitting for Tzeentch personally, I even thought of converting a few myself for a heresy-era force. It gives them a fast unit without trying to shoehorn in something like bikes which doesn't seem to fit the 'warrior wizards' & 'wizardy egyptians' image of the 1k-sons. Hopefully they won't be on actual screamers (which are rather large) and instead go back to disc riders like they used to have back in the glory days of the 3.5 codex.
Agreed, that would be quite interesting, I just hope if the unit turns up, it is indeed Discs.
I find it best to not believe any of those things that are spewn all over the place by the rumour monger types until the codex actually comes out.
They could all be completely fake, or 100% correct, but that doesn't make them any less enjoyable to read. And as long as I'm enjoying it, thats whats important to me.
CpatTom wrote:I find it best to not believe any of those things that are spewn all over the place by the rumour monger types until the codex actually comes out.
They could all be completely fake, or 100% correct, but that doesn't make them any less enjoyable to read. And as long as I'm enjoying it, thats whats important to me.
It all depends on the rumormonger. There are some who are generally pretty dead on, like Harry. It's just a matter of finding who's good and who isn't.
MasterSlowPoke wrote:There is literally no reason to believe anything ghost21 writes; don't try and defend him too much.
"Literally no reason"?-I do want to point out that some of what he's said has been supported by other more well esteemed rumor-mongers. So there is reson to believe some things, which is more than not believing anything.
Have you actually been keeping track of Ghost21's rumors? He promised a standalone Sisters codex (said he'd streak through London if it wasn't out by the end of the year), his Necron rumors were completely fase (and he said Yakface's rumors were totally off base). All he does is say things. The most correct thing he's ever hinted at can be summed up with the word "boats", and even that was with enough uncertainty to make him "safe" in case Dreadfleet was something different.
I'm not saying he hasn't been wrong. I was just undescoring the fact that despite your sentiments a number of people who do consitently provide good rumors have supported some of what Ghost21 has said. You were speaking in absolute terms and all I'm saying is the fact that we've recieved affirmations from people who are good about rumors means he isn't absolutely wrong. He isn't completely right and he isn't completely wrong, he's mostly wrong and partially right.
Oh MY RUINOUS POWERS can we please get back on topic and discuss the rumors not if someone is a horrible person. to be honest i think that even if someone is wrong or right it doesnt matter! it is about the discussion and the fact that people still can have hope for a new codex for a codex that is starting to show its age.
okay ranting done
so anyone have any ideas about how bezerkers on juggernauts will work cavalry or something similar?
and what are the chances of nurgle bikers, cause a friend, mentioned them and i was wondering if there was any chance?
marmaduke wrote:i think that even if someone is wrong or right it doesnt matter! it is about the discussion and the fact that people still can have hope for a new codex for a codex that is starting to show its age.
okay ranting done
I disagree, marmaduke. If someone has a proven track record of being right, then the rumor has some strength and it belongs in the News and Rumors section.
If the person is wrong very often, then they are just wishlisting. Wistlisting goes in the 40k General discussion.
marmaduke wrote:so anyone have any ideas about how bezerkers on juggernauts will work cavalry or something similar?
and what are the chances of nurgle bikers, cause a friend, mentioned them and i was wondering if there was any chance?
If they put them on juggernaughts, I'd assume that they'd follow the cavalry rules.
How would the bikes stack with Marks or Icons of nurgle? Would they be T5(6)? Would they be T4(6)? Are we talking true plague marines or just icons of nurgle?
kronk wrote: I disagree, marmaduke. If someone has a proven track record of being right, then the rumor has some strength and it belongs in the News and Rumors section.
If the person is wrong very often, then they are just wishlisting. Wistlisting goes in the 40k General discussion.
Then for the love of god either move the thread or get on with the topic! Theres nothing left to say about the source, so move the feth on.
kronk wrote: I disagree, marmaduke. If someone has a proven track record of being right, then the rumor has some strength and it belongs in the News and Rumors section.
If the person is wrong very often, then they are just wishlisting. Wistlisting goes in the 40k General discussion.
Then for the love of god either move the thread or get on with the topic! Theres nothing left to say about the source, so move the feth on.
You'll see in the second part of that post, I did. You should take your own advice as you are adding nothing with that post.
Sephyr wrote:If true, plastic plagues are a -huge- step toward a truly viable Legion-based codex.
Yes! Plastic kits for Plague Marines, Thousand Sons, and Emperor's Children, ala the kits for the Khorne Berzerkers would be great!
As would more shoulder pads for the chaos gods for Make-your-own chapters.
I've been thinking about this a lot, too. Ghosty21's "rumors" merit discussion I think more because they are "news," i.e., what the hardcore fans who may/may not "have an in" think is going to happen. Sometimes news is just what people are paying attention to -- see pop music, for example.
Ghost 21 was spot on about the Necrons REALLY early, and if I remember the GK rumours correctly, he predicted a number of things in that book as well. I wouldn't automatically defend his word, but I think hearing what he has to say is worth the time. Worst comes to worst, he's wrong, and we move on. Sorry if I'm late to the ball.
How would the bikes stack with Marks or Icons of nurgle? Would they be T5(6)? Would they be T4(6)? Are we talking true plague marines or just icons of nurgle?
Edit: Calvary/Cavalry.
personally i am hoping for T4(6) and then give them FNP that would make it worth taking the bike and not make them to tough
that and just drop the blight grenades when they get on the bike cause they are too busy steering. that or make it that they cause any unit within X" to suffer a -1Ld
MasterSlowPoke wrote:Conversely, I don't appreciate rumor dudes like Ghost and Stickmonkey at all.
Not all of Stick Monkeys Rumors were complete bunk. Nor IMO should what he says simply be completely discreditied out of hand. Should Stick Monkey be ranked in the same catagory as Harry...nope. But he shouldn't be ranked in the same catagory as "Bob_from_Marketing".
His rumors dating back to October 2010:
Spoiler:
Looks like the dead machines may rise again in 2011. I have good information that Necrons should see a revision following GK. What I have heard:
Correct
New Codex drops mid year.
Incorrect...but wait... in January he stated the following:
On the necron front, sources say the dead will rise when the souls come out to play this year.
Correct. Now back to his October rumors.
WBB changes to FNP for "most" units.
Incorrect
(On the question if both WBB and FNP will be present: )
the way it sounds is there are a few units with a WBB rule that is specific. But it is not the rule everyone is used to. I have nothing further to add here, sorry
Incorrect
New HQ options include "One" new C'Tan.
Incorrect; Ctans are now shards and are found in the Elites
Nightbringer and Deceiver to get new models
Hasn't happened so far
...and at least one will have optional "incarnations"
Kinda...you get Customizable Shards
New Tomb Spider plastic model.
Correct, due out in wave 2
option to create alternate model that is Heavy artillery.
Incorrect...though you may be able to build Wraiths with the same box.
New fast cc focus unit. jump infantry. warrior sized.
Correct, Ptaetorians
new models for immortals.
Correct
new "tank" - could be the TS based artillery just referenced from different source.
There are actually several flying vehicles with massive guns
new MC walker
Correct Triarch Stalker
- likely the rumored "Necronmancer" - may be HQ or Heavy-conflicting rumors here.
Incorrect. It is in the Elites.
New plastic Lord with all options.
Hasn't happened so far
New named Lord metal blister
Correct, there are actually several.
New Monolith option...not represented in models to be released.
Incorrect.
So out of 18 rumors you had 7 correct; 7 incorrect and 4 that are hazy or could happen in the future. Some of his correct quotes are fairly detailed like his January rumor that pointed to late October/Early November 2011 release or his rumor regarding a warrior-sized, close-combat, jumppack infantry unit. Others are vague like "New Tank".
In regards to detail, Stick Monkey's rumors are definately not up to the level of TasteyTaste's or Bad Taste's...but then most of BOKs rumors are coming out within months of a new release...not a year out. In comparison, most of Harry's and Hasting's 40k rumors also tend to be brief 1 sentence affairs and are sometimes fairly vague as well.
As for creds, Red himself vouched for Stick Monkey when people on Dakka were last bending him over the barrel. Anyways, whenever BadTaste (yes, his rumors were relaible) posts up a rumor, I feel the need to choke a kitten...I don't get that with other rumormongers.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MasterSlowPoke wrote:his Necron rumors were completely fase (and he said Yakface's rumors were totally off base).
Ghost's necrons rumors were about 50/50...not 100% false. And he never said Yak's rumors were totally off base. Infact, what he said is posted below:
Spoiler:
Ghost21 wrote:
Yakface wrote:1) No surprise here, but Necrons are still essentially Tomb Kings in space fluff wise. A shift in fluff is now that all of the higher up necrons are intelligent while the lower level ones are still basically automatons. I guess that's roughly the same as it used to be, but apparently there is more emphasis in the sentience of the higher Necrons now (hence the named Lords).
Yup thats nailed that one
Ghost agreed with Yak
Ghost21 wrote:
Yakface wrote:2) C'Tan are still in the codex...sort of. They have been moved to the Elites section and are now a single unit choice, but with variable upgrade powers you can take.
no honestly there not otherwise youll see khorne in the csm dex next
wont coment on rules
At this point, Yak hasn't elaborated that what you will get in the elite slot is Shards not Ctan. So here, Ghost disagrees, and Ghost is correct. The Ctan are indeed killed off and only thier Shards which are less powerful constructs remain.
Ghost21 wrote:
Yakface wrote:6) Destroyers now count as jump infantry and there is a new Fast Attack Jetbike unit called Tomb Blades.
not unles they get a masive redsesign and as the sprues are done n dusted im not sure thats acurate
Ghost disagrees Destroyers becoming jump infantry and ends up being wrong
Ghost21 wrote:
Yakface wrote:7) Immortals are now a Troops choice. Pariahs are gone. Flayed Ones are Elites.
only with a charecter
Ghost states that Immortals only become troops via unlocking with a SC. Ghost ends up being wrong.
Ghost21 wrote:
Yakface wrote:8) There are indeed 6 named characters (although I have no more info on them). There is also a Necron Overlord and a bodyguard unit called Crypteks. Crypteks can be split off before the game to lead units of Necrons, very similar to Wolf Guard in the Space Wolves codex. Crypteks can take a bunch of different technology upgrades, so there is kind of a way now to have personalized squad leaders in a Necron army.
thats really odd that was called pariahs.... so im inclined to agree, there was quite a few charecters though
Here he agrees
Ghost21 wrote:
Yakface wrote:10) There are six new vehicles in the codex (including the two transports mentioned above). Two of which seem to be based around this old Jes Goodwin design: http://storage.canalblog.com/29/28/731795/53057637.jpg
....all ill say is sky chariot ... but transports.....not sure since they can teleport everywhere they need any, but nothing in ive read says they get so many
Ghost incorrectly disagrees with the number of vehicles but is the first to mention a flying chariot...which turned out being correct ala the Battle Barge
Ghost21 wrote:
yakface wrote:12) In the Elites section there is a big new walker. It has a heat ray that that is either a melta or flamer depending on what you want to do. Any unit hit by this vehicle is marked (as in: laser targeted), which means that all other necrons count as being twin-linked for shooting at the marked enemy unit that turn.
he was heavy support last time i saw it
noyt trying to say your wrong or anything or come across a arogant, its just in the version i have seen
He agreed there was a walker but incorrectly diagreed with the FOC slot.
Moreover, there are 15 additional points that Yakface made in his original post which Ghost doesn't even comment on.
marmaduke wrote:Personally I am hoping for T4(6) and then give them FNP that would make it worth taking the bike and not make them to tough.
That and just drop the blight grenades when they get on the bike cause they are too busy steering. That or make it that they cause any unit within X" to suffer a -1Ld.
Gosh I really hope that this is somewhat true
The feeling I get from the new codex is that the ability to mark units will be somewhat limited and the counterbalance to this is a greater selection of cult units instead (e.g. berserkers, berserker cavalry, gladiators).
Personally I reckon Plague Marine bikers will only be possible via upgrading a Chaos retinue with MoN and bikes. Whilst this will probably leave you with FNP T4(6) biker, the counter balance is that the unit will be horribly expensive (unless the CSM codex is costed using the GK point cost formula).
marmaduke wrote:i think that even if someone is wrong or right it doesnt matter! it is about the discussion and the fact that people still can have hope for a new codex for a codex that is starting to show its age.
okay ranting done
I disagree, marmaduke. If someone has a proven track record of being right, then the rumor has some strength and it belongs in the News and Rumors section.
If the person is wrong very often, then they are just wishlisting. Wistlisting goes in the 40k General discussion.
marmaduke wrote:so anyone have any ideas about how bezerkers on juggernauts will work cavalry or something similar?
and what are the chances of nurgle bikers, cause a friend, mentioned them and i was wondering if there was any chance?
If they put them on juggernaughts, I'd assume that they'd follow the cavalry rules.
How would the bikes stack with Marks or Icons of nurgle? Would they be T5(6)? Would they be T4(6)? Are we talking true plague marines or just icons of nurgle?
Edit: Calvary/Cavalry.
Well, let's hold on a second-if they put Berzerkers on Juggernauts, I think it'll play more like bloodcrushers than TWC. Meaning they move like infantry, but will give a bonus to stats like TWC and 'crushers-T5, not T4(5). Infantry riding juggernauts already exists-and they'll use the stats for current chaos crusher-riders, not space wolf cav. Juggernauts are heavily armored daemonic beasts-they ALSO exist in the current chaos codex-guess what, no "beast" or "cavalry" rules. Kronk, that last comment was not aimed at you, it was just a general statement, no worries-you just gave me the opening to speak up on the subject.
I expect we'll see if the following stats, if Ghost is accurate: WS5, S5, T5, W2, A3, infantry, 60mm base, furious charge
(I know it's a coin toss, with a 3 sided coin and 2 sides are tails, but I'll still give him a shot)
Ok i just want to know. If we might be getting zeker knight thingies (fed up of the innuendo jokes tbh) do you guys think we'll get the others disc mounted tzeentch marines, slaaneshi steed riders and plaguies on giant slugs? I'm asking because yes i would like to see zerker knight thingies but we cant have them all surely can we and im gonna say i dont think we will see zerkers on rampaging rhino daemons tbh
MasterSlowPoke wrote:most correct thing he's ever hinted at can be summed up with the word "boats", and even that was with enough uncertainty to make him "safe" in case Dreadfleet was something different.
He said a bit more and was a bit more detailed than "boats" and he stated it in this order
Spoiler:
On 4-28-2011
ghost21 wrote:in September you get the "mystery box" ooooooooooo
ghost21 wrote:nope its not that its an actual boxed game ala space hulk
You do realize that he broke the news about the special box-set release almost a month before Bramguant right . Of course, Ghost was an unknown at the time so this rumor didn't break ground until Bramguant spoke about it on 5-24-11.
The discussion between Aaron Dembski-Bowden and ghost21 is getting interesting First ghost's reply to the Bolter&Chainsword comment:
ghost21 wrote:I'm not exactly sure what to say to that one... regardless.
If he is who he says he is, why take such a hard ass attitude?
He could friendly say "nope", or "I dont think so" or in fact I invite him to come here and talk it over in PM. I mentioned the red angel and little horus (it could have been some guys conversion but he was fairly confident he would make it ).
And if he says who he says he is, we've actually met at those IP meetings.
oh and one last thing writers are told who dies n who doesn't not the other way around
Aaron wrote:
if he is who he says he is why take such a hard ass attitude?
I'm not taking any attitude, really. I'm only pointing out the rumours I know are either false, or exceedingly unlikely to bear fruit.
Bear in mind how anyone in the company hears X or hears Y, from sources A, B and C. I'm not - and will never - share what I have or haven't heard about codex or army book development. Just making that clear. No one in my position would. I don't even hint whether I know anything. I say nothing about it. I like my career and have no interest in losing it.
However, purely as a member of the Heresy team and someone who suckles directly from the core lore sources, some of those rumours are either patently false, or ring hollow with how the IP seems to be presented / was explained to several of us / has been mentioned as being presented in the future.
and if he says who he says he is, we've actually met at those ip meetings
I am. And no, we haven't.
oh and one last thing writers are told who dies n who doesn't not the other way around
No, they're not.
Those lies aren't making it any easier to believe you with the other stuff, mate.
(...)
This is what I said on B&C in my original comments on the subject. Before anything gets out of hand, I'd like to make it clear that I was specifically talking about a couple of points, most notably HH characters in the codex:
"For the record, the Red Angel showing up would surprise me just as much as the separated Renegade/Legion codices, since he's showing up in the Heresy in ways even we've not fully decided yet (we only recently decided who he was), and the IP department are fully aware of it, having been at* the meetings."
(*or privy to)
I'm not making any comment on the other stuff. If I happened to be friends with people at head office and interacted with them professionally and/or personally (which I am, and do) I'd still say nothing. Which is the same thing I'd say if I knew nothing at all. I like my job, hence why I have no interest in risking it.
Purely as an HH writer, I'd be - shall we say - stunned to see certain characters show up in the next Chaos codex, especially when we've only just decided who they are, and their fates aren't decided. That just doesn't strike me as likely.
ghost21 wrote:
I am. And no, we haven't.
I'm afraid we have, unfortunatley. I'll be sure to announce myself to you next time :-/ oh great one, you might not know who i am but i certainly have to read what you "write"
No, they're not.
so you can kill of Horus? or anybody? really? ill be sure to mention it
Those lies aren't making it any easier to believe you with the other stuff, mate.
I'm not your mate, and if you say so
Aaron wrote:
I'm afraid we have, unfortunatley, ill be sure to announce myself to you next time :-/ oh great one, you might not know who i am but i certainly have to read what you "write"
I'll ignore the vague insult, because, really, there's no need to get into a mud-flinging fest. I'm sorry you take some bizarre offence at someone saying "That seems unlikely" in regards to a couple of your rumours, but there we go.
So you're saying we've genuinely been in the same meetings? The ones specifically related to the examples I'm using in debunking your rumours? So... you're in Horus Heresy meetings? And the meetings for unannounced projects with a handful of people in the room? That would make you someone I know well. Disregarding the fact that all of those people can spell and type, several of them are either my close friends, were at my wedding, and/or are people I have regular contact with.
Don't pretend to be one of them. That's creepy, and a lie. A creepy lie, in fact.
so you can kill of Horus? or anybody? really? ill be sure to mention it
You either know what I meant and are being deliberately obtuse, or are so desperate to defend yourself against being backed into a corner that you're relying on a nonsensical soundbite.
You said, specifically, that "oh and one last thing writers are told who dies n who doesn't not the other way around."
We're not. You're wrong. It's really that simple. Saying "LOL HORUS" doesn't change that. Don't be so ridiculous.
I understand that people aren't usually in the position to correct you over this stuff (until the codices come out), but is there really any need to be so weird and precious about it? Think what you're getting so snotty about: someone actually in the know said "That seems unlikely" to a couple of your many points. I mean, is that really so hard to deal with? Being this weird is your solution? I
Theocracity wrote:feel like an onlooker in a rap battle, and have the overwhelming urge to yell "OH SNAP" for no reason.
It doesn't need to be so confrontational, really. All I've said is that "it's unlikely (from my understanding of the fluff and the way IP department discusses the lore) that they'd divide the Legions and Renegades into two codices like that" and "I sincerely doubt they'll use new Horus Heresy characters in the codex", then explained why.
I'm not commenting on anything else. I'm not dishing out rumours or denying anything I may or may not have heard, because I like my career. I'm not even definitely saying they won't do those things. Just that it seems ball-achingly unlikely, because, frankly, it does.
I'm sort of confused as to why that's so hard to stomach, or why it requires ghost21 to lie about knowing me, and being in meetings where he wasn't actually present at all.
EDIT: Either way, I've said all I need to say. I've not got a mountain of interest in lingering to partake in some bizarre back-and-forth over nothing.
bhsman wrote:I don't mean this maliciously, but would you be willing to provide examples of this, aka_mythos?
For example:
ghost21 wrote:As I've said, it will probably be the first or second 6th ed book, 6th ed is slated for july I think (but also I have bb then... so I dunno), so anything up to 4 months after that...
harry wrote:I do think CSM are the first sixth edition book but not sure if they come just before or just after 6th edition.
Either way, creepy e-stalker making up rumors is a pretty interesting read. Maybe he's the janitor, or some such. Guy/girl hiding in the background, changing the trashcan, or cleaning the windows.
EDIT: Woah, not only have the mods conveniently removed that entire exchange but also the earlier links to ghost21's mocking of Blood of Kittens' solid Necron rumors or his promise to go streaking if Sisters of Battle received a White Dwarf codex. Thanks for saving that for us, Kroot.
EDIT: That's the real Aaron, too. He cross-posts fan-art of the Soul Hunter characters from B&C on his blog all the time, among other things.
aka_mythos wrote:
bhsman wrote:I don't mean this maliciously, but would you be willing to provide examples of this, aka_mythos?
For example:
ghost21 wrote:As I've said, it will probably be the first or second 6th ed book, 6th ed is slated for july I think (but also I have bb then... so I dunno), so anything up to 4 months after that...
harry wrote:I do think CSM are the first sixth edition book but not sure if they come just before or just after 6th edition.
Fair enough, though this all comes after Big Red(?) had made a thread about the 6th Ed. starter containing CSM. Not to say this is just another nail in Ghost's coffin, but that feels more like an educated guess.
bhsman wrote:EDIT: That's the real Aaron, too. He cross-posts fan-art of the Soul Hunter characters from B&C on his blog all the time, among other things.
Thanks, good to know
bhsman wrote:
aka_mythos wrote:For example:
ghost21 wrote:As I've said, it will probably be the first or second 6th ed book, 6th ed is slated for july I think (but also I have bb then... so I dunno), so anything up to 4 months after that...
harry wrote:I do think CSM are the first sixth edition book but not sure if they come just before or just after 6th edition.
Fair enough, though this all comes after Big Red(?) had made a thread about the 6th Ed. starter containing CSM. Not to say this is just another nail in Ghost's coffin, but that feels more like an educated guess.
Big Red's July's thread appears to be a compilation of other Warseer rumors that date back to June...namely Ghost21 and BramGaunt when they were discussing the Legions codex. For the Record, BramGuant was the first to coin "Chaos Legions". Ghost went on to state in that same thread that the focus would be on the Legions and Cult Space Marines. He said there would a second Chaos codex called Renegades and more recently he stated that Renegades would be more like LATD with some CSM for seasoning. Doesn't seam like Aaron read Ghost's later posts about Renegades *shrug*
I could also point to where Ghost stated that Necrons were due out in August and Sisters due out in November. BramGuant in that same thread confirmed that he had heard the same as well. Both ended up being wrong...and Bramguant is generally considered to be reliable .
Anyways, Chaos Legions is due out in less than a year, as well as the 6th edition starter set (which Ghost21 predicts is BT vs CSM and Deamons) so we will know how accurate this go around is soon enough .
It wasn't from a compilation thread about Chaos Legions AFAIR, someone reputable just made a thread about the potential new starter set. I guess we'll see, though.
I’ve been recently thinking about the discussion regarding the accuracy/preferences of rumour mongers such as Ghost/Harry etc and (as corny as it sounds) I get the feeling that people are forgetting to take the rumours “with a grain of salt”.
From what I gather, a lot of the rumours we receive usually come from things that are usually not set in stone and are subject to change (especially early rumours). Summer of fliers personally comes to mind as a good example of this. The only 100% accurate rumours I’ve seen usually come from things that are on the cusp of being released (with the rumour itself usually being confirmed via a pick of an early white dwarf pick from Europe).
Most of the rumours are usually correct in the loosest sense anyway, with usually dates or specifics being incorrect.
So basically the vibe I get from all this is that Ghost21 is just a small kid posting random ideas from his home computer, just to get attention. I would probably be able to get 1/3 of my own (readable) ideas correct aswell, but that doesn't prove anything. He might have been at the GWHQ at some point, sweeping the floor and emptying trashcans, and may have seen some non-publicised miniatures, but that doesn't make his rumors much more credible than random guesses.
The fact that ADB even bothers to kill him off as a rumour monger just proves that Ghost21 has had way too much influence on the internet Warhammer community by guessing randomly.
ON TOPIC:
I at least hope that Night Lords and Alfa Legion get some cool new bikers with some new special rules. I doubt that every other legion, like Death Guard, will get bikers, as the point with a legions book would be to differentiate the legions from each other in playstyle and overall feel.
I've got to say a lot of these chaos rumours sound fun but I'm a bit unsure as to how much of what we're hearing is brainstorming or ideas as opposed to what we might actually get.
Would like the Khorne bezerker on juggernauts though.
Only thing that has me pondering is I was fairly sure that Phil Kelly was writing/has written the chaos codex, with Messrs. Ward ( ably assisted no doubt by Mr. Troke) were mainly going to be working on other, precious, projects.
I would be very surprised if we suddenly saw characters from the 31M, from a series that isn't finished yet, suddenly introduced into a 41M era codex. true on occassion the studio does seem to trample over some of what Bl have produced.
But I've yet to see them totally ignore or render invalid a major series that is ongoing. Especially a New York Times best selling series that's generating great reviews and good sales.
I would suggest that this quote from elsewhere might be pertinent
It's regarding Mr. Swallows ( most enjoyable) "Hammer and Anvil novel", which features the SoB and the Necrons.
1. How much cooperation did you receive from the GW design studio and from Mat himself ?
I met with Matt Ward several months ago when the new Necron codex was still in the development stage; later I got a pre-release version of the document to refer to while I was writing Hammer & Anvil.
2. Was it always the plan to depict the new Necrons in the novel from the get go? If not, then how did it come about?
Yup. The story for H&A was originally concieved back in 2006, and it was always going to be Sisters vs. Necrons, inspired by a piece of colour text in the previous edition of the Necron codex.
3. How much room were you given for your own interpretation of the characters and units and how much did you have to abide by with the info you were given?
Writing any tie-in work means you have to keep to the lore as closely as possible, but I felt like I had a pretty free hand to develop characters, etc.
4. Given the gaffe in the BA codex with regards to the Blood Swords, and now the cooperation regarding the Necrons, what are your thoughts overall? How do you see this going forwards?
Better communication and collaboration between Black Library writers and the GWdev team can only be a good thing.
IIRC They're listed and featured as a BA successor chapter in some of the BA novels, they're summoned to Baal to take part in the grand conclave and fight there, but Codex : BA says they're not a BA Successor chapter.
I'll ignore the vague insult, because, really, there's no need to get into a mud-flinging fest. I'm sorry you take some bizarre offence at someone saying "That seems unlikely" in regards to a couple of your rumours, but there we go.
I took offense to be called a bold face liar.
So you're saying we've genuinely been in the same meetings? The ones specifically related to the examples I'm using in debunking your rumours? So... you're in Horus Heresy meetings? And the meetings for unannounced projects with a handful of people in the room? That would make you someone I know well. Disregarding the fact that all of those people can spell and type, several of them are either my close friends, were at my wedding, and/or are people I have regular contact with.
Don't pretend to be one of them. That's creepy, and a lie. A creepy lie, in fact.
We have been in the same meetings if you don't believe that then that's really up-to you, the handful meetings no but i get told what happens there.
You either know what I meant and are being deliberately obtuse, or are so desperate to defend yourself against being backed into a corner that you're relying on a nonsensical soundbite.
You said, specifically, that "oh and one last thing writers are told who dies n who doesn't not the other way around."
We're not. You're wrong. It's really that simple. Saying "LOL HORUS" doesn't change that. Don't be so ridiculous.
I'm afraid it does. You basically said you can nuke who you want and you can't, can you ?
I understand that people aren't usually in the position to correct you over this stuff (until the codices come out), but is there really any need to be so weird and precious about it? Think what you're getting so snotty about: someone actually in the know said "That seems unlikely" to a couple of your many points. I mean, is that really so hard to deal with? Being this weird is your solution?
It was your tone. You basically came out with "he's a liar" and you keep saying it, I'll probably get banned and you'll have another petty victory. Kudos
Aaron wrote:If you get banned and blame me, rather than your own words and tone, you may need to rethink what's going down. You're getting overly defensive and putting words in my mouth in a bid to present your argument in stronger terms, such as:
"I'm afraid it does you basically said you can nuke who you want and you cant can you ?"
I clearly said nothing of the kind. Anyone reading both of our posts is unlikely to see me as the one being out of line, here. Or the one inventing things and taking the other out of context.
Incidentally, we haven't been in the same meetings. Please stop that. It's creepy. The meetings and IP discussions I've been in are always very small groups, and I categorically know you're not one of the people present. I understand you need to look like you have credence to the people reading your rumours, but you're bordering on ridiculous now. Instead of insisting that you've been in meetings where one of the people actually there knows you weren't, try saying you were in different meetings instead.
Honestly, dude. Take a step back and take a look at this thread. Someone has said "That seems unlikely" to two out of your countless rumours.
Seriously, man. Calm down. If you're right, won't time tell? If you're wrong, aren't they just rumours, anyway? There's no need to act so freaky.
loveless wrote:Regardless of who has the bigger keyboard between ghost and ADB, I'd rather just move forward with rumor discussion - I don't care if they will or won't be, so long as they may be.
I agree with that, and I've no interest in prolonging an unnecessary (and bizarre) sense of aggression. But please don't phrase it in terms of me vs. him. Context is everything, and all I said was that from my perspective, a couple of his rumours were very unlikely. I'm not interested in a word war with someone I don't know, and I regret asking him to stop lying about being present in the same meetings as me. If I'd known that would trigger more nonsense, I'd have remained silent.
I'll bow out, not least because this is time-consuming, but because there's also no debate while someone dares question Ghost on his stuff. I don't want this thread derailed, any more than you do.
Freak Ona Leash wrote:Well, Mr. Dembski-Bowden only disavowed rumors which don't seem to impact the Codex itself all that much. Little Horus Aximand and the "Red Angel" would only be special characters if they were included anyways, so not exactly world-shattering news for Chaos fans.
Thanks, dude. That's literally it. It shouldn't be so hard to accept, ignore, and move on either way. No need for a war.
The spat between ADB and ghost21 really doesn't do either of them any favours. If ghost21 is a kid making stuff up in his basement then ADB is really better off not getting drawn into anything with him. If ghost21 is for real, not knowing much about the process behind the scenes, you'd have to assume that it is at least conceivable that they've met at some obscure meeting that ADB wouldn't remember, in which case ADB would be going way too far. Of course you really have to lean towards ADB being in the right given that we know he's legit, but I don't want my favourite BL author getting himself in trouble by wading into rumours discussions. We all know how extreme his parent company can be over these matters.
I've often wondered why our handful of flawless rumour deities don't, from time to time, drop into a rumour discussion and uncover a fraud, since they must be able to see through many of them. I think yakface shut down some Necron rumours because he knew them to be false, but it's not something that happens very often. I can only imagine that they are left to their own devices because they provide cover for the real rumour posters to do what they do without exposing themselves too much. Either that or, given how many concepts are produced in the early stages of the design process it's very difficult to say with complete certainty that a rumour poster is not only mistaken but actually making things up. From our outside perspective it's even more difficult to be confident about who is genuine and who is taking us for a ride. My scientific background requires me to keep an open mind until a possible outcome can be completely eliminated, so I'd never charge in and declare that someone is a fraud, even if they are consistently wrong. You could reasonably expect a guy making educated guesses and a guy revealing early stage concepts to have a fairly similar success rate. If you read rumours you have to get comfortable with ambiguities. Watching a posters success rate tells you a lot about their reliability, but it rarely gives you cast iron indications of their integrity.
Kinda makes me wonder what kind of NDAs GeeDub enforces on people working with them. Most NDAs I've signed made commenting on the validity of rumors (including straight out debunking them) as breach of confidentiality. You'd have to have a pretty big axe to grind to willingly risk your work connections with pointless forum spats.
candy.man wrote:I’ve been recently thinking about the discussion regarding the accuracy/preferences of rumour mongers such as Ghost/Harry etc and (as corny as it sounds) I get the feeling that people are forgetting to take the rumours “with a grain of salt”.
This has been a long-running issue. IMO, things got particularly insane on Warseer, where the site management spent too much time worrying about "true rumors" vs. "false rumors". And of course the other long-running rumor phenomenon is the poster with like 28 posts to his name harassing a reliable source to where they don't feel like sharing information anymore.
From what I gather, a lot of the rumours we receive usually come from things that are usually not set in stone and are subject to change (especially early rumours). Summer of fliers personally comes to mind as a good example of this. The only 100% accurate rumours I’ve seen usually come from things that are on the cusp of being released (with the rumour itself usually being confirmed via a pick of an early white dwarf pick from Europe).
Most of the rumours are usually correct in the loosest sense anyway, with usually dates or specifics being incorrect.
Yep...we know that concepts kick around the studio for *years*. Heck, I'm completely willing to believe that Hrud and Umbra may have received a little brainstorming attention at some point, and ghost may have been in position to see the sketches, etc. Of course, that doesn't mean a codex will ever happen, but it's still interesting info and I wish people would treat it as such.
Many years ago at a tournament I had a conversation with Jervis, who told me some info about a new WFB army. I now believe that his slightly cryptic comments referred to Ogre Kingdoms, although it's also possible he was referring to something different that we never received. Anyway, my point is that had I posted that rumor, I almost certainly would have gotten thrown into the "bad rumormonger" camp since for years nothing came of it. Even though my "source" was one of their lead designers.
Will the Daemon Prince still be the same powerhouse that it is now
This one made me laugh for like a good 30 minutes...,ahah Deamon Prince and Powerhouse in the same sentence...
Personnaly regarding the Ghost21 Vs ADB match; i don't give a rat's ass as to who ever wins this crap fling contest...,its like watching two kids who tries to know wich of them as the longest...
I come here for rumours...,not Monkey fights, for this i'll go to the local Bar, at least you can SEE the match, while enjoying your beer.
Nobody was being a killjoy, there's just honestly no way of us to know this. Assume that Daemon Princes are good, but that's all anyone can really say at this point.
"Will the Daemon Prince still be the same powerhouse that it is now or will we see some new viable hq thats even better?"
I can't wait to see what they do with Daemon Princes. I'm betting the Tzeench Daemon might have it's own Psycher Power(s) that perhaps even the Sorceror doesn't get and that the psychic powers in general will be beefed up to match or exceed the Codex Space Marines.
There will still be powerful assault builds. However, don't discount shooty chaose armies. Havocks, Obliterators, and defilers can lay down some serious fire power. I doubt those will be weakened.
Okay, I don't want to keep this thread derailed for longer than possible with continued ADB v. ghost21 discussion, but back a few pages ago, ghost21 told ADB that the next time he saw him, he would let him know who he was.
Now, this throws up a big red flag for me. This tells me that:
A) If ghost21 has been sitting in on these meetings with ADB, he doesn't really care that much about his position with GW. Otherwise, how can he be sure that ADB wouldn't report his breach of an NDA?
B) Or, if he truly has been in on these small meetings, as ADB describes them to be, then he is one of the higher ups and doesn't care if ADB knows that he's breached his NDA because he's intentionally leaking misinformation.
C) Or, he's someone who does get information somewhere along the line, though it may not be the most accurate, and he's just lying about being in the meetings with ADB.
How would the bikes stack with Marks or Icons of nurgle? Would they be T5(6)? Would they be T4(6)? Are we talking true plague marines or just icons of nurgle?
Edit: Calvary/Cavalry.
personally i am hoping for T4(6) and then give them FNP that would make it worth taking the bike and not make them to tough
that and just drop the blight grenades when they get on the bike cause they are too busy steering. that or make it that they cause any unit within X" to suffer a -1Ld
gosh i really hope that this is somewhat true
Absolutely NO to T4(6) Nurgle bikers, and while we're at it, T4(5) for Nurgle Lords and Characters (I'm looking at you, Typhus). It's sad how the Herald of Nurgle himself can be insta-gibbed by some no-name dill weed sergeant of (insert random Ultramarines successor) can strike him down in one swing.
Death By Monkeys wrote:Okay, I don't want to keep this thread derailed for longer than possible with continued ADB v. ghost21 discussion, but back a few pages ago, ghost21 told ADB that the next time he saw him, he would let him know who he was.
Now, this throws up a big red flag for me. This tells me that:
A) If ghost21 has been sitting in on these meetings with ADB, he doesn't really care that much about his position with GW. Otherwise, how can he be sure that ADB wouldn't report his breach of an NDA?
B) Or, if he truly has been in on these small meetings, as ADB describes them to be, then he is one of the higher ups and doesn't care if ADB knows that he's breached his NDA because he's intentionally leaking misinformation.
C) Or, he's someone who does get information somewhere along the line, though it may not be the most accurate, and he's just lying about being in the meetings with ADB.
That was my thought process as well. When rumors go by and they say, "I've got a guy-who-knows-a-guy-who-knows-a-guy." as their source I am usually reluctant to believe them. When they say they are the guy leaking the information I'm even more speculative. I only say that because if you really are that guy you're an idiot because it will end up costing you your job and future employment. I wouldn't employ someone who has a history of not being able to keep their mouth shut when it comes to R&D projects. The next question would be, what is his actual position? I don't think he made the cut to be a designer or writer. Maybe an IT guy that is reading someone else's emails? He can get the info from the meeting without being present but is still "in the room". Then again, item C still holds water as well.
DarknessEternal wrote:When did the Red Angel stop being anyone but Angron?
That's just another one of his names.
In the Horus Heresy card game, artbook, and novels the "Red Angel" was written as captured and possessed blood angel used a medium to communicate with daemonic allies in the warp. So for about the last 7 years or so.
*IF* chaos marines/legions get buffed versions of the daemon prince and/or the basic 4 daemonic units, (horrors, 'letter et all), for lower costs than what the daemon codex gets them, could this mean we get a new Codex: Daemons before a full-on chaos renegades 'dex?!?
Basically, I'm thinking about what's happened in fantasy as possible evidence; Tomb Kings got an update in May and things like skeletons dropped to 4pts, while Vampire counts still pay 8pts for the same unit. (and theirs come with a worse statline to boot!) But now only 7/8'ish months later, VC's are getting their fix so that they're no longer being massively over-taxed for the same option/s.
Daemons are more popular than alot give them credit since it's an army that crosses over 2 games... They simply have no versitility right now and are stale as all feth. I'd honestly hate to think that GW would force daemonic players to wait upwards of almost 3 more years before we get some desperately help. If chaos marines do get 'better' daemons, I just hope there's a way for us daemon players to play a mainly daemonic list untill we get an actual working codex!
DarknessEternal wrote:When did the Red Angel stop being anyone but Angron?
That's just another one of his names.
In the Horus Heresy card game, artbook, and novels the "Red Angel" was written as captured and possessed blood angel used a medium to communicate with daemonic allies in the warp. So for about the last 7 years or so.
Evidence?
Rules of Engagement by Graham McNeill refers to Angron as the Red Angel.
So basically, 80% of these rumors (aka ones by ghost) are completely BS. We should make a list of people who gave rumors, quotes for rumors and which ones actually had inside info. That way, we could look forward to REAL rumors. I mean for friggles sake, I could jog down some of what I've heard right now and they'd be as accurate as that front post:
More Chaos Gifts
More Special characters other than Abaddon and the four cronies
Legion Based special characters
Said special characters will have army wide rules
At least one plastic cult marine box set
Demons completely removed bar the prince
A greater focus on the non-chaos-gods-worshiping-leigions with special rules to reflect this
New chaos spells with more god specific spells
There are "pick a model and roll" spells and stat based template spells
More upgrade for terminators including cult terminators
Shabbadoo wrote:Not sure if anybody posted it yet, but here is a possible tidbit from the rules for the new Land Raider Proteus:
Power of the Machine Spirit(Imperial)/Infernal Device(Chaos): A
Land Raider can fire one more weapon that would normally be permitted
based upon its movement speed; this weapon may be fired at a separate
target if desired. A Land Raider may also fire a single weapon even if it
has suffered a Crew Shaken or Crew Stunned result that turn.
While Forgeworld does make up its own rules for things, they usually don't do it for a core piece of equipment on a core vehicle, so perhaps the Chaos Land Raider will soon enough be more useful(which would be nice).
Looks to me like it's just FW making it equally usable for both factions.
I can't imagine GW would just copy the rule directly over to Chaos, only with a different name.
terranarc wrote:So basically, 80% of these rumors (aka ones by ghost) are completely BS. We should make a list of people who gave rumors, quotes for rumors and which ones actually had inside info. That way, we could look forward to REAL rumors.
1.) Actually we don't know if ghost21's Chaos rumours are true. We will find out in about a year.
2.) The first post makes it quite clear who is the source for each rumour.
3.) Most rumour posters started with no proof of their credibility, even Harry raised a nerdrage when he predicted a High Elf chariot dran by lions. Most of ghost's rumours are so far in the future that we will not see in the next 6 months, if they are true.
4.) There is no such thing as REAL and UNREAL rumours. If we know they are true, they stop being rumours and become fact.
wyomingfox wrote:A nice find by Shabbadoo on Warseer
Shabbadoo wrote:Not sure if anybody posted it yet, but here is a possible tidbit from the rules for the new Land Raider Proteus:
Power of the Machine Spirit(Imperial)/Infernal Device(Chaos): A
Land Raider can fire one more weapon that would normally be permitted
based upon its movement speed; this weapon may be fired at a separate
target if desired. A Land Raider may also fire a single weapon even if it
has suffered a Crew Shaken or Crew Stunned result that turn.
While Forgeworld does make up its own rules for things, they usually don't do it for a core piece of equipment on a core vehicle, so perhaps the Chaos Land Raider will soon enough be more useful(which would be nice).
THAT is most certainly news worthy! If this carries into the codex, I wonder if it would replace the Daemonic Possession upgrades.
Back in the day i seem to recall a machine spirit as having BS 2. i wonder if thats the case with this new rule.
If indeed its at the crews skill, that would be huge.
terranarc wrote:So basically, 80% of these rumors (aka ones by ghost) are completely BS. We should make a list of people who gave rumors, quotes for rumors and which ones actually had inside info. That way, we could look forward to REAL rumors.
1.) Actually we don't know if ghost21's Chaos rumours are true. We will find out in about a year.
2.) The first post makes it quite clear who is the source for each rumour.
3.) Most rumour posters started with no proof of their credibility, even Harry raised a nerdrage when he predicted a High Elf chariot dran by lions. Most of ghost's rumours are so far in the future that we will not see in the next 6 months, if they are true.
4.) There is no such thing as REAL and UNREAL rumours. If we know they are true, they stop being rumours and become fact.
True but wouldn't you rather read plausible rumors from people who get things right more of the times than just people spouting wishlist? I mean there IS a place for wishlist stuff.
DarknessEternal wrote:When did the Red Angel stop being anyone but Angron?
That's just another one of his names.
In the Horus Heresy card game, artbook, and novels the "Red Angel" was written as captured and possessed blood angel used a medium to communicate with daemonic allies in the warp. So for about the last 7 years or so.
Evidence?
Rules of Engagement by Graham McNeill refers to Angron as the Red Angel.
Both the card of this character and the artbook name the guy in the picture as the Red Angel... as you can see in the lower left hand corner of the picture. He is separate and distinct from Angron, who has his own card and artistic depiction.
tarnish wrote:Back in the day i seem to recall a machine spirit as having BS 2. i wonder if thats the case with this new rule.
If indeed its at the crews skill, that would be huge.
I doubt it would be BS2. Daemonic Spirit is BS3. Also, The BT codex was updated from BS2 to BS4 with the latest FAQ.
Experiment 626 wrote:Daemons are more popular than alot give them credit since it's an army that crosses over 2 games... They simply have no versitility right now and are stale as all feth. I'd honestly hate to think that GW would force daemonic players to wait upwards of almost 3 more years before we get some desperately help. If chaos marines do get 'better' daemons, I just hope there's a way for us daemon players to play a mainly daemonic list untill we get an actual working codex!
I think the reason why Daemons lack versatility is primarily because the Daemons split from CSM was never done cleanly. The Daemons codex is essentially compiled of the daemonic units that were removed from the CSM codex, with the special characters and the Soul Grinder being the only unique additions. The sad part is that there wasn’t enough daemonic units in the old CSM book to make a full codex (nor were replacement units added to the CSM codex), which essentially left us with two badly written (and incomplete) books.
The rumours of 6th edition don’t mention daemons which leads me to believe that either a) it is a long wait before they get a new book or b) Daemons don’t get a new book but primarily Daemonic forces are still playable via one of the two 6thEd CSM codices (Word Bearers and LATD?).
I imagine whenever the chaos daemon codex is revisited we're going to see a number of undivided daemons... maybe some willingly bound versions of any new daemon engines... kinda like what the soul grinder is to the defiler but with some of the other god specific daemon engines. The rumored "rotzilla" if true would probably be in there. All of those things would go a long way to helping.
terranarc wrote:True but wouldn't you rather read plausible rumors from people who get things right more of the times than just people spouting wishlist? I mean there IS a place for wishlist stuff.
And 1 year... *cry*
Dammit GW. Dammit.
I would rather post official 3 month preview teasers by GW ... or only correct rumours ... but that's how it is.
And I keep on posting implausible rumours like those by Tastytaste that Sororitas will only get a WD Codex
Anyway:
TheDarkGeneral wrote:Well, i'm glad actually to not be part of that lil' argument...i'm just here to post what i've heard, things I assume, and my own personal thoughts and hopes. I just have to be a lil' clearer on my posts I suppose.
THINGS I'VE HEARD:
*Brazen Knights: Or whatever they're going to call the Berzerkers a top Juggernauts, won't be in the Fast Attack slot like the Thunder Cav (Space Wolves). Probably Elites, with no way to move to Troops.
*Word Bearers: Will be able to take Marked units but with some restrictions. Apparently with all the current Black Library Books out on them (I'm enjoying their reads!), and mention of the Sanctified in Siege of Vraks, the ability to take Marked units has been brought up. Not sure how they'll do this, if it'll be a 1 unit for 1 unit.
*Alpha Legion: Hardest to get info on, but "might" be able to force a re-roll on the type of scenario?! This honestly sounds more like a Special Character ability to me...but we'll see...
*Iron Warriors: Their Cult Terminators will have access to Thunder Hammer & Storm Shields, as well as Iron-Fire Cannon (thunder fire). Basic Chaos Marine squads "may" be able to take an additional heavy weapons team once past 10 models...
*Kharn: Gets a new model (FINALLY), which is bulkier and still ferocious in motion...his rules get better for survive ability like Eternal Warrior and a 4+ Invul, but his bloodshed knows no bounds...
THINGS I ASSUME:
*Mixing Legions: I'm still not sure about this, but i'm under the impression that Black Legion HQs will grant you more access to a wider variety of different Legion's units, though not gaining their particular Army wide rules.
*HQs: Sounds like they're gonna be the deciding factor on who/what you can take, from the various Daemon Engines, to particular number of each squad in their respective slot.
*Daemons: Odd...but it may be just the lessor and greater daemon versions in the new codex. So example that World Eaters would be able to summon forth just Bloodletters and Bloodthirsters...i'm hoping this is incorrect.
THINGS I'M HOPING FOR:
*Vehicle upgrades: Based off of Legion/Marks! It'd be nice to see this return!
*Chaos Wargear: MORE HQ upgrades! Like previous Codexes (i know this isn't the correct spelling of Codices). I truly miss being able to personalize character models with cool, useful, and non-marine upgrades! Like the Dark Blade!
*Chosen & Possessed: I've heard few lil' rumblings about them, but I personal hope they become a lot more upgrade-able, according to Legion.
*Dread Claws: This would be VERY nice and much needed!
*Plagueknights: Though I no longer field Nurgle, i think it'd be awesome to see some plastic kits for Plaguemarines riding Beasts of Nurgle!
*Legion Icon Bearers: It'd be way cool to have a Legion Icon Bearer that granted some kind of benefit to his squad, or models within 12", etc...and of course a bad ass model to go along with it!
TheDarkGeneral wrote:*Alpha Legion: Hardest to get info on, but "might" be able to force a re-roll on the type of scenario?! This honestly sounds more like a Special Character ability to me...but we'll see...
Warseer's WordBearer brought up another interesting point in relation to recent Forge World entries
This is purely speculative on my part, but recent Forgeworld stuff has had the ability for Chaos to dedicate a vehicle to a particular god to change its statline. If Forgeworld is being used as a test-bed, I think this is very plausible.
TheDarkGeneral wrote:*Alpha Legion: Hardest to get info on, but "might" be able to force a re-roll on the type of scenario?! This honestly sounds more like a Special Character ability to me...but we'll see...
Anyone else find this ironic?
I would have preferred it if Alpha Legion was the one we have 100 different rumours on, all of them contradicting the others.
TheDarkGeneral wrote:*Alpha Legion: Hardest to get info on, but "might" be able to force a re-roll on the type of scenario?! This honestly sounds more like a Special Character ability to me...but we'll see...
Anyone else find this ironic?
I would have preferred it if Alpha Legion was the one we have 100 different rumours on, all of them contradicting the others.
that would be funny and the rumor thats correct would be the first one that everyone ignored lmao
wyomingfox wrote:Warseer's WordBearer brought up another interesting point in relation to recent Forge World entries
This is purely speculative on my part, but recent Forgeworld stuff has had the ability for Chaos to dedicate a vehicle to a particular god to change its statline. If Forgeworld is being used as a test-bed, I think this is very plausible.
Yearh... groundbreaking. Like its never been tried before.
Moved from Tau thread: Again, didn't notice these in the rumor summary.
From July 22, 2011:
Liberium Online's Jared Van Kell wrote:
Big Red wrote:Oh, the birds are a tweet tweeting... Here's the latest scuttlebutt out there on what's coming down the pipe for Warhammer 40000...
So we all know this summer is Sisters of Battle in White Dwarf.
Next up is Necrons said to be in the November time slot (same as Dark Eldar last year)
Then Chaos Legions in the March 2012 time slot (same as the Grey Knights slot). This is said to not be a replacement for the current Chaos Space Marines book which may get some retconing and erratas to make it effectively the Chaos Renegade book come 6th Edition.
Yes I did mention 6th Edition - said to be hot on the heels of the Chaos Legion book, taking up next summer with the standard multi-month new edition release slot.
From Bell of Lost Souls. I've heard something about this, but nothing definite. Matt Ward is on this one by all accounts and it has been on the back boil for quite some time with Matt and others working on it between projects. All rumours indicate it being more akin to the 3rd chaos book with special characters for each legion....
This book will focus on the original chaos legions in their own right so that each legion plays a little differently with respect to how they operate in the fluff. ie: Iron Warriors having more artillery and obliterators, Night Lords having more bikes and raptors.
Things like Cult Terminators are likely to make a return with the proviso that you can only take them in a dedicated cult list for example.
From 11-2-11:
Liberium Online's Jared Van Kell wrote:I'm surprised Ghost21 let out this much. He is usually so tight lipped about rumours.
...the first thing i have to say is that there are 2 chaos books planed
one more renagade based the other legion based the legion one will be that, dudes who are 10000 years old kicking ass n taking names True.
Expect something along the lines of the Lost and the Damned list from the Eye of Terror campaign.
there "may" be a inquisitor who's gone bad but really expect new guys in the renegade one. its lost and the damned influenced... but it has other options....
There will be some Chaos Spacemarine and Chaos Daemon influence.
..."Chaos Legions as an uber-elite army, probably comparable to Grey Knights in that regard?" -
YES Death Guard and Iron Warriors are going to be popular again.
"and a second book that deals with Chaos Renegades, that includes Chaos Guard, or might even focus on non-marine chaos?"
- YES Expect a few "interesting" tanks.
...little horus?....
you could be onto something Horus Axiamand. Read the first 3 Horus Heresy books to know who he is.
From 11-14-11:
Jared Van Kell wrote:Iron Warriors are getting Honsou.
On 11-15-11:
Liberium Online's Jared Van Kell wrote:
Liberium Online's Fantasticmrfox wrote:Latest news [from Warseer]: (masses of salt required)
1. New plastic chaos dread and plastic raptors
2. All of the fallen legions to feature (and a boxed set featuring a named character FROM EVERY LEGION!)
3. Khornate Chrono Gladiators (whatever they are)
4. Nightlords Assassins
5. New Abaddon sculpt (the bad boy is back!)
6. Marks but No Daemons
7. A Dark mechanicus sculpt
oh and "Legions" if the first of two codexes - "traitors" codex will follow.....
1. The plastic raptors and the dreadnoughts are going to happen as I am aware though the raptors will be release a bit later.
2. Horus Axiamand, Honsou, Unknown Raptor Lord, Kharn the Betrayer, Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius the Eternal.
3. Chrono-gladiators are individuals who must keep killing to stop a countdown timer in their heads from killing them. The more they kill the longer it stops.
4. I've not heard anything solid on those yet.
5. Abaddon's sculpt is not much different than it is now, just a bit bigger.
6. Not entirely correct.
7. The Dark Mechanicus model is a side project.
These new rumors are getting me a bit more excited for this. I've always enjoyed the Bad guys fluff, and an Elite Chaos Army like GK could be really cool.
I'm looking forward to when we can get some real solid stuff coming, but I guess that won't be until much closer to the release date.
Seems like the rumour mill is really starting to heat up on this... Personally I'm more interested in the new sculpts. GW has really impressed me this past year with all of their new miniatures.
Why the hell would GW release plastic plague marines or raptors? they just made the old sculpts into fincast (and increased the cost obscenely) . That would be a waste of money on their part.
If they did release plastics, they would have to charge out the nose for them, since GW NEVER lowers the price on anything. Plague marines are 45$ for seven models. If they made it any lower, people who bought finecast would cry foul.
Samus_aran115 wrote:Why the hell would GW release plastic plague marines or raptors? they just made the old sculpts into fincast (and increased the cost obscenely) . That would be a waste of money on their part.
If they did release plastics, they would have to charge out the nose for them, since GW NEVER lowers the price on anything. Plague marines are 45$ for seven models. If they made it any lower, people who bought finecast would cry foul.
Yes, they do lower prices when models become plastic. look at the new necron pariahs... 2 unit options and enough parts to make atleast 5 models for 15 pounds. the metal ones where around 6 pounds for ONE.
Besides the pricing argument you start off with does not hold water. if they sell more of the plastic equal they make more then if they sold the older version if the demand justifies the sale.
Since when did gw concern themselves with people crying foul? get with the times girlfriend.
Samus_aran115 wrote:Why the hell would GW release plastic plague marines or raptors? they just made the old sculpts into fincast (and increased the cost obscenely) . That would be a waste of money on their part.
As a hold over until the plastic kits are ready to be released with the Chaos codex, which could be 8 months away.
They were losing money with the high cost of metal and had to make the change. Couldn't wait.
I know there's now a couple folks now that are stating that Honsou will be the IW special character, but count me skeptical on that considering some of ADB's recent comments.
I mean, from what I've seen, not many of the characters invented by BL writers, as opposed to GW developers, actually make it into the rules. I mean, IG got Gaunt and some Ghosts in the previous edition, but that's kind of an outlier as there's no current rules. There are plenty of characters in BL books that have rules, but these are ones that GW had already developed before giving to a BL writer. What other BL writer-developed characters have made it into the rules?
Death By Monkeys wrote:I know there's now a couple folks now that are stating that Honsou will be the IW special character, but count me skeptical on that considering some of ADB's recent comments.
I mean, from what I've seen, not many of the characters invented by BL writers, as opposed to GW developers, actually make it into the rules. I mean, IG got Gaunt and some Ghosts in the previous edition, but that's kind of an outlier as there's no current rules. There are plenty of characters in BL books that have rules, but these are ones that GW had already developed before giving to a BL writer. What other BL writer-developed characters have made it into the rules?
I feel the same skepticism. The design studio within the last couple years had even stated, when asked, that they wouldn't use any BL characters or video game characters in the tabletop 40k; that they wanted to let different parts of the IP rest on their own and not have cross overs. Rumors of "Honsou" and "the Red Angel" contradict that... so either somethings changed or someone's mistaken.
Samus_aran115 wrote:Why the hell would GW release plastic plague marines or raptors? they just made the old sculpts into fincast (and increased the cost obscenely) . That would be a waste of money on their part.
If they did release plastics, they would have to charge out the nose for them, since GW NEVER lowers the price on anything. Plague marines are 45$ for seven models. If they made it any lower, people who bought finecast would cry foul.
That's not true. Grey Knights went down in price when they changed to plastic, as did Raveners, Killa Kans, Venerable Dreadnoughts, Daemon Princes, Nobz, and, well, just about any plastic figure you can think of. They would be cheaper. Given the recent conversion into Finecast though, I don't see it as particularly likely we'll be seeing Plague Marines in plastic.
The new rumours sound good. I must say that the Chrono Gladiators concept sounds a bit odd and a little too wacky IMO (even by 40k standards). Hopefully the fluff in the 6E codex is not based around stereotypical concepts (e.g. moustache twirling heretics who are grim dark++). If everything in the book is based around an “over the top” concept like the Chrono Gladiators then I’m also going to assume the Matt Ward rumour is also true.
I worry about the Matt Ward rumour as it means we’ll get some weird story about “Ahriman carving Magnus’ name into Eldrad’s brain” as well as a bunch of special characters that lack the IC rule.
Death By Monkeys wrote: What other BL writer-developed characters have made it into the rules?
Gotrek and Felix.
Thanquol.
Boneripper
Malus Darkblade.
I swear, where's Kanluwen to chime in on this when I need him?
Okay, so far other than Gaunt we only have Fantasy characters. Any others in 40k?
You rang? /Lurch
Ragnar Blackmane(not sure if he had models before the Bill King novels, but the novels date to about the same time as Gotrek and Felix, Darkblade, etc).
Schaeffer's Last Chancers.
Corbec and quite a few other Ghosts had rules at one point, but not in the form of Codex rules--rather Chapter Approved.
Shas'o Kais from Fire Warrior(not a Black Library character, but still) had rules.
The Loxatl had rules in Chapter Approved(I think I still have 'em, in fact) along with The Blood Pact had rules(not a single character, but still a BL property).
That's off the top of my head though.
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candy.man wrote:The new rumours sound good. I must say that the Chrono Gladiators concept sounds a bit odd and a little too wacky IMO (even by 40k standards). Hopefully the fluff in the 6E codex is not based around stereotypical concepts (e.g. moustache twirling heretics who are grim dark++). If everything in the book is based around an “over the top” concept like the Chrono Gladiators then I’m also going to assume the Matt Ward rumour is also true.
I worry about the Matt Ward rumour as it means we’ll get some weird story about “Ahriman carving Magnus’ name into Eldrad’s brain” as well as a bunch of special characters that lack the IC rule.
Chrono Gladiators already existed in 40k. They were in the Inquisitor game, in fact...here's a link to a photo:
The original Chrono Gladiator, during a match only had a set amout of time until a small bomb explodes his brain(Think Snake Plissken).
Every kill in the arena buys them a little more time if he wins the bomb does not go off,if not things get messy.
But a sure way to ensure the gladiators give thier all and give a good show.
Kanluwen wrote:[Ragnar Blackmane(not sure if he had models before the Bill King novels, but the novels date to about the same time as Gotrek and Felix, Darkblade, etc).
Ragnar Blackmane was in the 2nd edition Space Wolves codex, with a model. I remember, because my brother fielded him all the time. The Bill King books were released after that.
Gotrej and felix were in the 4th edition dwarf book and mentioened way before trollslayer was released
Ragnar Blackmane was in the 2nd edition codex as mentioned above
Thanquol and boneripper were in the skaven armybook since 4th edition
Gaunt and the ghosts were first a special reliease then gaunt was put into the 3.5 guard codex.
The only black library character to make it into the game and remain is Malus Darkblade i think because he was a sure fan faveourite. If Honsou is going to be the IW special character then he has to be a massive fan faveourite like nalus (so there is a chance XD)
candy.man wrote:
I worry about the Matt Ward rumour as it means we’ll get some weird story about “Ahriman carving Magnus’ name into Eldrad’s brain” as well as a bunch of special characters that lack the IC rule.
Oh man, that's so funny, clever, and totally not run into the ground. Definitely need to hear that joke in every thread. If Ward writes it it will probably be fine.
I’ll have to agree with HBMC based on my personal observations of the fluff entries in the Daemons codex. The overall focus of the book was the 4 gods and the Furies fluff entry alluded to the idea that chaos undivided as a whole was rare and that being a Chaos Fury was a type of punishment.
Whilst I think it would be cool to have more undivided stuff, the current fluff direction GW is taking seems to say otherwise. If we’re lucky though, we might see Chaos Furies in the book as a fast attack choice.
aka_mythos wrote:I imagine whenever the chaos daemon codex is revisited we're going to see a number of undivided daemons
I doubt that very very much.
'Chaos Undivided', as a concept, is being weeded out of the game.
Whether its "Chaos Undivided" (not worshiping any particular facet of chaos) or the new "Chaos United" (worshiping the full pantheon with equal vigour)... I think daemons with no particular affiliation make sense. Furies are one, and they do show undivided daemons exist. I don't believe GW would do tons of new undivided daemons, only one or two. Realize when I say "undivided daemons" I am inclusively refering to non-god specific daemon engines, like the soul grinder, and to things like FW greater sized chaos spawn, even though I know strictly speaking isn't a daemon. These would be the larger models that they couldn't justify producing if they only appealed to specific chaos god daemon players.
The only true "undivided daemon," in the way you seem to have previously interpreted me, I'd like to see revisited is the non-god specific version of nurglings from the Lost and the Damned, the "Gibbering Hoard" as I think it goes a long way towards establishing that sense of chaos and power hierarchy... that an unruly mass of little daemons are effectively undivideds lesser daemons and significantly weaker than the god allied ones. These guys are effectively the left over residue of energies that normally coalesce to form other daemons.
Conceptually the Daemons codex is currently limited. The god specific daemons are pretty much established... so to do something new with what's established means either taking some older established concept and reworking it, like say taking the older muscle-bound bloodletters and redoing them as a different stock of elite bloodletters... or taking older concepts and blending them, like making horror's mounted on screamers. If they choose to stick solely to god specific daemons, they would likely need to invent new daemon units... intermediate daemons half way between lesser and greater daemons would be the most straightforward.
Look I want there to be Chaos Undivided in its full glory as it was in the 3.5 days - and I want my Gibbering Hordes from the EoT Codex, and my Greater and Lesser Daemons of Chaos Undivided from Codex: Daemonhunters - but I think you'll find that 'Undivided' as a concept is no longer applicable, and instead you'll start seeing 'unaligned' in its place.
Undivided daemons have always been in the fluff, but its another thing entirely to have models for them. Its one thing to write them out (which is not happening) but they might opt to simply not mentioning them.
I'm not that attached to any particular idea... heck the only unit I was remotely insistant on can just be done "count as" very easily. I just think the Chaos Daemons army needs to have a more thematic center. Right now its just a blob of different daemons inexplicably working together, with major gaps in capabilities. If GW wants to make it all about the Chaos gods, then it needs more units from them to make single god armies mostly viable, but in that case to keep it thematically united there needs to still be at least some common core of units to draw from.
The WB legion treat chaos like a pantheon I believe at one point in the first book there are screamers circling a main character and he proclaims that Tzeench is on their side this day yadda yadda. Earlier in the book though A few guardsmen and cultists are transformed, posessed, by furies, so yeah the punishment think works for undivided, but not all undivided.
Yes but they were worshipping all Chaos Gods equally, not worshipping 'Chaos Undivided' as a single entity. That's the point I'm trying to get at. One shouldn't look at the Word Bearers as being unaligned, but rather look at them as being aligned with all four!
aka_mythos wrote:I just think the Chaos Daemons army needs to have a more thematic center. Right now its just a blob of different daemons inexplicably working together, with major gaps in capabilities.
Which is one of the reasons I refer to that Codex as "Codex: Unnecessary". The whole conceptual basis of its in-game mechanics don't make sense. All of these daemons just work with one another, and under the lead of a Daemon from a rival god? And they all just appear out of thin air, and there always just happens to be an army there waiting for them? Everything about that book annoys me.
I like the idea of Daemon World armies, but the method of execution that GW has chosen is lazy at best.
I do agree that it is strange for ALL the daemons to come out of the warp. it is logical that they would appear near enemy armies, so that they can attack them, but mostly non-daemon armies would be attacking daemon incursions where the daemons are already running rampant, so....
Eh, that makes enough sense. There's enough examples out there of attacking forces descending upon an enemy poisition, finding it desolate, and then upon some probing, are attacked on all sides by an ever growing horde.
candy.man wrote:
I worry about the Matt Ward rumour as it means we’ll get some weird story about “Ahriman carving Magnus’ name into Eldrad’s brain” as well as a bunch of special characters that lack the IC rule.
Oh man, that's so funny, clever, and totally not run into the ground. Definitely need to hear that joke in every thread. If Ward writes it it will probably be fine.
Ahriman's eccentric enough as it is. Killing an organisation for its library, which he then burns to the ground?
H.B.M.C. wrote:Yes but they were worshipping all Chaos Gods equally, not worshipping 'Chaos Undivided' as a single entity. That's the point I'm trying to get at. One shouldn't look at the Word Bearers as being unaligned, but rather look at them as being aligned with all four!
So you're making the distinction that Word Bearers are polytheistic while true "chaos undivided" worshipers are monotheistic. In the new order of things, it works, but in the past GW did use the term in a more catch-all sort of way, so its going to be a difficult assertion to impress upon everyone.
Samus_aran115 wrote:Why the hell would GW release plastic plague marines or raptors? they just made the old sculpts into fincast (and increased the cost obscenely) . That would be a waste of money on their part.
As a hold over until the plastic kits are ready to be released with the Chaos codex, which could be 8 months away.
They were losing money with the high cost of metal and had to make the change. Couldn't wait.
(That's conjecture on my part, I admit.)
It's not inconceivable, but given that there must be costs associated with the change from metal to Finecast (striking new moulds from the old masters, one presumes) it would seem rather counter-intuitive to spend that time and money on models soon to be replaced. I would expect that anything we've seen Finecasted isn't going to be resculpted any time soon. My inference would thus be that Abaddon will presumably continue with his Napoleon complex for another edition, but that we might, unless we see them rereleased in Finecast before the codex is announced, expect the rest of the named characters who (excepting Huron, a newer sculpt and now Finecast) are all 1996 sculpts (and showing their age) to be redone.
-Loki- wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:[Ragnar Blackmane(not sure if he had models before the Bill King novels, but the novels date to about the same time as Gotrek and Felix, Darkblade, etc).
Ragnar Blackmane was in the 2nd edition Space Wolves codex, with a model. I remember, because my brother fielded him all the time. The Bill King books were released after that.
Ragnar (and Ulrik and Njal) are older than that, they were part of the Space Wolves list published in White Dwarf 150-something for Rogue Trader.
DarkStarSabre wrote:
GentlemanGuy wrote:Gotrej and felix were in the 4th edition dwarf book and mentioened way before trollslayer was released
Ragnar Blackmane was in the 2nd edition codex as mentioned above
Thanquol and boneripper were in the skaven armybook since 4th edition
I feel the need to correct this. People seem to think that Trollslayer is a product of the late 90s...
It's actually a reprinted collection of short stories - some of which date back to the 1980s predating 4th edition.
Spot on.
Finally, Commisar Yarrick and Ghazghkull Thraka were both cardboard counters in 'Battle for Armageddon' for a time before getting models and rules for Warhammer 40,000 (indeed Ghazghkull was a minor character in 'Waaargh the Orks!' for some years before that).
Brother Dimetrius wrote:A thought occurred, if ADB claims that they are very strict on their IP management for the HH characters (and I see no reason why they shouldn't be), doesn't that kill the idea of a 30k supplement that Ghost alluded to for the short/medium term?
That's not quiiiiiiiite what I'm saying, but I see your point. It's not a matter of strict IP management, and more just a matter of good sense and respecting each other's boundaries. My comments on the rumours were on three topics:
1. I'm not being anything like as specific as the above quote. All I'm saying is that given how the Heresy team and the IP lords have only just decided who several major Heresy-era characters are (and some still haven't had their fates decided), it'd be unlikely they showed up in a Chaos Codex.
2. I also find it unlikely they'd break Chaos Space Marines into two codices.
3. And, lastly, that it's claimed Mat Ward is writing it, when several people have spoken to Mat Ward at GDUK and reported on forums that he specifically said he wasn't writing it. That's not even my rumour, it just seems to have been lost in the mix, despite being shared elsewhere.
Just to be clear: I'm avoiding any mention of actual information I may or may not have heard, and I'm not commenting on a 30K supplement at all - which would be the case whether there was never going to be one, or it was gonna be announced tomorrow with me as lead developer. I only commented in this thread at all because I found it bizarre my identity was being called into question due to a related conversation on another forum, and I was getting quoted here in terms of stuff that had come at the end of a long, long debate elsewhere. It needed some context.
My only other comment was to suggest that ghost21's rumours were to be taken with a pinch of salt given those three things to consider. Admittedly, because of the vagueness (and general apparent likelihood - new minis, etc.) of a lot of those rumours, it's likely a lot of them would be true even if plenty weren't, but you can probably trust me that three I mentioned are most definitely "unlikely". That's literally all I've said on the subject.
Apologies for restating that for clarity, but I really don't wanna get misquoted on any of this. I've been very careful (you have to be, when talking about this stuff - I regret ever opening my mouth about it), and my comments originally on B&C were purely in my perspective on what was likely as a member of the HH team.
Which was commented on Warseer by:
decker_cky wrote:So really what you're saying is that you're writing the 30k supplement, right?
massey wrote:I think he also confirmed a plastic Thunderhawk as well.
thewickedworm wrote:Sounds like he also confirmed something about space dwarves. . .
lets be clear on something. I really hope matt ward gets hit by a meteor befor he comes anywhere near a chaos codex. he writes stupid fluff. Just saying.
English Assassin wrote:
Finally, Commisar Yarrick and Ghazghkull Thraka were both cardboard counters in 'Battle for Armageddon' for a time before getting models and rules for Warhammer 40,000 (indeed Ghazghkull was a minor character in 'Waaargh the Orks!' for some years before that).
Ghazghkull Thraka was created by Andy Chambers and was the name of his Warboss for his Ork Warband. Created in a White Dwarf article using the rules in the first "Waaargh the Orks" book. Article was reprinted later in either Ere We Go or Freebooter. Can't remember which. Sadly don't own any of the books
sennacherib wrote:lets be clear on something. I really hope matt ward gets hit by a meteor befor he comes anywhere near a chaos codex. he writes stupid fluff. Just saying.
A, So what would be new for a Chaos 'dex?
B, I suspect that the majority of the people who bandwagon'd onto the hideous 3.5 effort weren't doing so for the background.
Dysartes wrote:
B, I suspect that the majority of the people who bandwagon'd onto the hideous 3.5 effort weren't doing so for the background.
I'm one of the few who did.
My original Death Guard army was based on the IA article with the old 3rd ed. Chaos Codex and when that made its way into the 3.5 book I was overjoyed.
It was all infantry, in squads of 7. The only 'vehicles' were Dreadnoughts. It was very Terminator heavy. Sure, there were some broken combinations with Daemon Weapons - Manreaper was obscene...but now? Every single Daemon Weapon is a Manreaper with bonus effects.
The Rhinos and Vindicator were recent editions due to the way the new edition forced armies to start working. I don't like them. I never will. But it because pointless trying to adhere to the Infantry advance fluff when all things did was drive around in circles and Plasma/Starcannon you to death because your points hiked upward and FNP actually suffered a nerf between 4th edition (when the current codex was released) and 5th edition.
Dysartes wrote:
I suspect that the majority of the people who bandwagon'd onto the hideous 3.5 effort weren't doing so for the background.
I'm sure at least a few joined the forces of chaos for the ability to ROFLstomp almost every opposing army even if played with a house rule forcing the player to ignore any sixes they roll. That codex had plenty of choice for players to run vastly different builds but somehow locally we only saw the 2 or 3 that were the most incredibly broken when combined with 3rd edition rules. I'd be curious to see how that old book would play now versus 5th edition books; I'd hazard a guess that it would still be quite competitive. Either way, I'm hoping that the next attempt will be middle ground between the previous two versions when played with the upcoming 6th edition rules.
sennacherib wrote:lets be clear on something. I really hope matt ward gets hit by a meteor befor he comes anywhere near a chaos codex. he writes stupid fluff. Just saying.
A, So what would be new for a Chaos 'dex?
B, I suspect that the majority of the people who bandwagon'd onto the hideous 3.5 effort weren't doing so for the background.
Eh, I don't agree. The fluff in the book wasn't terrible, but it was a little 'out there' in terms of grimdark, I guess. It's my favorite, but that might have something to do with the embroidery all over the edges of the pages
The 3rd edition codex (which I have right next to me) isn't very good, in fact it's worse in some places. I like where special characters are explained, but aside from that, the fluff pertaining to legions is terribad. BUT, there wasn't much supplement at that point, so I forgive them. Chaos was left more to your imagination back then. More emphasis was placed on creativity and it encouraged you to create your own chaos army.
So. Just from my observations of all three codexes, I'd bargain to say that the fluff is getting better, book to book. I don't think matt ward could do too much wrong. Even since the 4th edition book was released, there's been a massive influx of chaos writing (Most HH stuff could be twisted around to work), so as long as he sticks to vaguely established writing, it should turn out all right.
But we know that Matt Ward isn't writing it, since ADB said so, right?
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I'm sure at least a few joined the forces of chaos for the ability to ROFLstomp almost every opposing army even if played with a house rule forcing the player to ignore any sixes they roll. That codex had plenty of choice for players to run vastly different builds but somehow locally we only saw the 2 or 3 that were the most incredibly broken when combined with 3rd edition rules. I'd be curious to see how that old book would play now versus 5th edition books; I'd hazard a guess that it would still be quite competitive. Either way, I'm hoping that the next attempt will be middle ground between the previous two versions when played with the upcoming 6th edition rules.
Agree with whole post. The 3.5 dex had some UBERROFLSTOMP builds, but more importantly, it allowed you to make an army that really felt "CHAOOOOOOOOOSSSSS"y. If it was OP, then that was fine, but at least it was a good army build.
I read the 4th edition book first, then the 3.0 dex. And I was thinking to myself "Why isn't chaos like this? 1k sons are better, noise marines are good, and Juggernauts add two toughness!"... But then I read the 3.5 dex... And it felt like I had really hit the goldmine. Everything I saw was absolutely perfect. Veteran skills, champions, special weapons. Perfect. And the fluff was good too. Better than the 3.0 dex
English Assassin wrote:
Finally, Commisar Yarrick and Ghazghkull Thraka were both cardboard counters in 'Battle for Armageddon' for a time before getting models and rules for Warhammer 40,000 (indeed Ghazghkull was a minor character in 'Waaargh the Orks!' for some years before that).
Ghazghkull Thraka was created by Andy Chambers and was the name of his Warboss for his Ork Warband. Created in a White Dwarf article using the rules in the first "Waaargh the Orks" book. Article was reprinted later in either Ere We Go or Freebooter. Can't remember which. Sadly don't own any of the books
You are indeed correct! A check of the precious tomes in my bookcase confirms that Ghazghkull was indeed the sample Goff Warboss in 'Ere We Go! - the Warboss who appeared in Waaargh the Orks! was in fact Nuzzgrond Nosebiter, boss of the Goffs on Nuzzgrond's World, in which book the much-missed Makari the grot also made his first appearance.
Significantly to this discussion, both of the aforementioned books are more entertaining reads than the forthcoming Chaos codex is likely to be.
English Assassin wrote:Significantly to this discussion, both of the aforementioned books are more entertaining reads than the forthcoming Chaos codex is likely to be.
I wish I had your superpowers of judging things based on zero information!
English Assassin wrote:Significantly to this discussion, both of the aforementioned books are more entertaining reads than the forthcoming Chaos codex is likely to be.
I wish I had your superpowers of judging things based on zero information!
Good point!
Away from the ledge everyone - it is WAY too early!
I wonder if the rumours for a LatD like list would allow you to have daemons enter play through units of cultists to negate the need for deepstrike.
Replace Cultist unit x with Daemon unit y if unit x fails a leadership test? Daemon unit cannot exceed Cultist unit, excess daemons/cultists are destroyed. Totally impractical, but fluffy. GW could even make a mutant/cultist kit and use it for multiple forces... /wishlisting
English Assassin wrote:Significantly to this discussion, both of the aforementioned books are more entertaining reads than the forthcoming Chaos codex is likely to be.
I wish I had your superpowers of judging things based on zero information!
It's called 'inference', look it up.
You may wish to check 'sarcasm' while you're there.
wyomingfox wrote: It's like playing Telephone with those guys over at warseer
I'd rather copy this to Dakka for readability ... and because Warseer often deletes things without further ado, as they did in this case again.
Another response:
Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:There's an old politics axiom: "If you're explaining, you're losing." But seriously, I have to explain this.
I think you're coming at this from the wrong angle. I'm not bouncing in to claim HH material as soveriegn territory. I just thought this was a topic about rumours. I explained why that rumour wasn't a likely future event in the Chaos Codex. That's literally the entirety of the situation. I said it was unlikely, and explained why.
I didn't even give my feelings on the matter (which, incidentally, are largely ambivalent). I didn't attack ghost21 or try to kill his kids. I pointed out three unlikely rumours, and only got defensive when he kept lying about being in meetings where I categorically knew he wasn't there (it's creepy when someone says they met you several times and were in a room with you, when they weren't); corrected him on his misunderstanding of how 40K lore development worked in regards to what novelists are told and not told; and when he directly insulted me, which is all clearly still in the thread a few pages back. I even PM'd him to bury the hatchet - which given how he'd directly lied, been exceedingly creepy, and insulted me, wasn't exactly something that needed doing from my end. I also listed the people in those meetings, and said why I knew he wasn't one of them. (And if he was there - then as someone else has said: why would he admit that - it'd blow his anonymity, since I know those people well, and any GW employee would be able to work out who the rumourmonger was.) Either way, no reply yet.
I appreciate his value as a rumourmonger and that he's a familiar face, but he's not exactly an innocent martyr unjustly attacked out of nowhere. He reacted badly to a couple of rumours being offered likelier counterpoints, and I reacted badly by rising to the bait of someone able to lie and hide behind anonymity. It was a silly conversation online, not a holy war. He's probably just doing something else for a few days, not lamenting how he can never spread another rumour ever again.
StraightSilver wrote:Well I wasn't going to post in this as I have decided to stay pretty much out of the rumours forum to be honest.
I just wanted to back up what some of the others have been saying, rumours are just that and should be treated as such.
I have a couple of very good contacts at GWHQ and they often mention things to me regarding future releases, but as Aaron said more often than not they heard it from X, who heard it from Y etc.
It's also the fact that GW work years in advance and things do change, so what may be true early on in development will not be true by time of release.
There's also the fact that people are only human and things do get misinterpreted once they hit the web, and also people just sometimes don't want to agree with you.
The problem I have found is that people do take it all a bit personally, and that's the reason I stopped posting in the rumours threads, as I had a bad experience on "another forum".
However I would say to Ghost keep posting, not everything will be right but that's why they're called rumours, and everybody will have an opinion.
And I would also like to say that I have met Aaron a couple of times at BL events, Games Day etc and he really is a top bloke. It is way too easy on the internet to misinterpret what somebody is saying because you aren't face to face, and I don't for one minute think he was being confrontational.
And as far as I know since GW set up Black Library (after Boxtree published for them) they have stayed away from including original author creations in Codexes.
I think the exception may be Gaunt in one of the previous IG Codexes, but generally you won't see Ciaphas Cain, Eisenhorn etc in a Codex.
Back on topic I don't have a huge amount to offer, as I say I tend not to disclose anything these days but I do recall something that Jervis Johnson said a while ago.
Apparently when Gav Thorpe wrote the last CSM Dex he was given very strict instructions on what he could and couldn't do. He was pretty much forced to streamline the Codex as the dev team thought the previous one was too complicated.
Gav really didn't have much say in the Dex, and wasn't happy with just how stripped down it was, but those were the wishes of the design department.
However Jervis said that as soon as the Dex was released they realised they had made a mistake, and started planning the new Dex almost immediately.
Suffice it to say this new Dex has been in planning for quite some time, and the idea was to reintegrate some of the elements from the Codex before last.
Jervis also said that the plan was to release the Legions book, but keep the current CSM Codex as a Renegades Codex.
This may be where the confusion of 2 books arises from, as far as I know the new Legions Dex will be in addition to the CSM one, not a replacement.
However that info is well over a year old now so once again, don't shoot the messenger.
Born Again wrote:That's been the rumour for some time now, though I don't recall it having come from Jervis, or any member of the Dev team, I thought a rumour monger on a forum started it. I could be wrong though.
I believe Jervis touched upon the point in one of his Standard Bearer articles, I will see if I can dig out which one, but it was ages ago. He then expanded on the article to somebody that I know, but as I say this was over a year ago now if memory serves.
In terms of the differences, the new Chaos Legions Codex is supposed to represent the Traitor Marines who fled to the Eye of Terror after the Heresy.
They are therfore Chaos Legionnaires rather than Chaos Marines, and are therefore different to the Marines who have since turned their backs on the Emperor and have gone renegade.
They are much older, and closer to their original Legions (World Eaters, Thousand Sons etc) and will have distinct rules to represent this.
In terms of Traitor Guard apparently the idea for a full Traitor Guard Codex was put forward but was rejected.
Rumours say that Traitor Guard will be available as a unit choice in the new Legions Codex (by taking Alpha Legion) but won't be available as a full army.
AFAIK the only current plans are for the Legions Codex, nothing else. The current CSM Codex will remain to represent Traitor Marines rather than Legionnaires.
Summary:
CSM Codex stays viable for Renegade Marines.
Legions Codex will come to cover the older Legions like Death Guard and Thousand Sons INA DDITION to the old CSM Codex.
Traitor Guard idea considered but abandonned, now only a unit for Alpha Guard in Legions Codex.
GentlemanGuy wrote:Gotrej and felix were in the 4th edition dwarf book and mentioened way before trollslayer was released
Ragnar Blackmane was in the 2nd edition codex as mentioned above
Thanquol and boneripper were in the skaven armybook since 4th edition
I feel the need to correct this. People seem to think that Trollslayer is a product of the late 90s...
It's actually a reprinted collection of short stories - some of which date back to the 1980s predating 4th edition.
And while we're correcting, Ragnar first showed up in the sunset days of Rogue Trader when the Space Wolves for a new WD army list which was sort of the test bed for 2nd edition.
Yarrick and Ghaz became special characters around the same time.
Kroothawk wrote:
AFAIK the only current plans are for the Legions Codex, nothing else. The current CSM Codex will remain to represent Traitor Marines rather than Legionnaires.
Summary:
CSM Codex stays viable for Renegade Marines.
Legions Codex will come to cover the older Legions like Death Guard and Thousand Sons INA DDITION to the old CSM Codex.
Traitor Guard idea considered but abandonned, now only a unit for Alpha Guard in Legions Codex.
Well, if this is true--Chaos will have essentially two codices. One, which is composed of Lash Sorcerors, Ababababadddon, Plague Marines, Zerks and Oblits---and then the new Legion book.
I guess, sarcasm aside, this depends on if they have viable choices in the legion book for the misses in the current CSM book. One would hope they would revisit the current CSM book and attempt to balance out the sub-par choices.
Seems like we can basically tear down half of ghost's rumors then.
Much LESS excited about the whole thing now. I don't think there's a decent way to fit all the legions into one book, especially if there are new units that can only be used in ONE legion (all of the khorne stuff mentioned). The book would be too unwieldy, and have massive sections that you would just have to skip over. I liked what Ghost was saying about splitting up the nine legions into three books. That would be a decent way to give the legions their space, and enough room for codex fluff that actually applies to the army you like...
I also don't think that anyone would play the 'CSM' codex if they released a Legions book. There are fundamental problems with the current book that more or less narrow your choices down to a few units. Almost every player who has a legion collection would abandon the CSM book, right? It doesn't make sense for them to keep such a crappy book, that almost everyone who uses it hates.
LOL, he posted in and was the OP source for an incredibly biased Chapterhouse lawsuit rumor thread (a double whammy!) and didn't realize that it would cause so much debate?? He must be new to the wider internet forum world outside Warseer's overly pruned forests.
Holy feth, if the rumor about the option to include traitor guard in an Alfa Legion army, I will start said army on release! I hope that Alfa Legion will get some really sneaky unit selections, and will make for a unique army to play.
Noisy_Marine wrote:The thread confuses me. I just hope there is a new CSM codex and it doesn't suck. Because if it does, I quit GW games darn it! I mean it!
NOOO! dont leave us! we know you so well ....
no seriously, i think quite a few are thinking the same thing.
English Assassin wrote:Significantly to this discussion, both of the aforementioned books are more entertaining reads than the forthcoming Chaos codex is likely to be.
I wish I had your superpowers of judging things based on zero information!
It's called 'inference', look it up.
You may wish to check 'sarcasm' while you're there.
Inference! OOh, that is a big scary word that I have never heard of before. Thanks, now I know it is safe to doom-say about things that I have literally no concrete information about, because of "inference".
Kroothawk wrote:Summary:
CSM Codex stays viable for Renegade Marines.
Legions Codex will come to cover the older Legions like Death Guard and Thousand Sons INA DDITION to the old CSM Codex.
Traitor Guard idea considered but abandonned, now only a unit for Alpha Guard in Legions Codex.
I do like this idea better than a full redo of the CSM book. It means that current models/lists won't be invalidated overnight and gives all CSM players more options. Only thing I don't want is a rebranded loyalist Land Raider, perhaps something different rules-wise apart from renaming the special abilities.
Kroothawk wrote:Summary:
CSM Codex stays viable for Renegade Marines.
Legions Codex will come to cover the older Legions like Death Guard and Thousand Sons INA DDITION to the old CSM Codex.
Traitor Guard idea considered but abandonned, now only a unit for Alpha Guard in Legions Codex.
I do like this idea better than a full redo of the CSM book. It means that current models/lists won't be invalidated overnight and gives all CSM players more options. Only thing I don't want is a rebranded loyalist Land Raider, perhaps something different rules-wise apart from renaming the special abilities.
Yeah, but more than likely, the legions book will blow away the old CSM book, and those lists you've become so attached to will seem antiquated and obsolete. That happens with every codex release. Keeping the old CSM book is just going to encourage people to run no brainer Obliterator/Lash Prince/ Plague marine lists with the old book, and we'll still be seeing those same builds years after the CSM book should have hit the dust. More than likely, they'll change all three of those units, but such is the natural progression of the game, I suppose.
I just don't feel like leaving the current book in the game is a good idea in any way, except to keep certain armies viable for those hobbyists who run genuinely non-legion forces (Like red corsairs and fallen DA armies, which are pretty cool). But even then, I can imagine it wouldn't be too hard to find a legion to fit the general idea of your army. Or maybe I'm over-thinking it, and the CSM book will just fall into obscurity and never be used. I dunno.
I think as long as we can move 12 and fire a single weapon, most CSM players will be happy enough
Automatically Appended Next Post:
English Assassin wrote:Significantly to this discussion, both of the aforementioned books are more entertaining reads than the forthcoming Chaos codex is likely to be.
How do you figure that? My guess is that they'll have to cram a lot of different fluff into the legions book, but that doesn't really mean it'll be worse than the current one.
Those reasons are exactly why a legion codex only in the context of the renegades codex being redone sooner rather than later. Without a redo, there is too much overlap and redundancy... and the fact is there is a concept that makes the renegade book supplement and justify having both exist in parallel.
aka_mythos wrote:Those reasons are exactly why a legion codex only in the context of the renegades codex being redone sooner rather than later. Without a redo, there is too much overlap and redundancy... and the fact is there is a concept that makes the renegade book supplement and justify having both exist in parallel.
Holy run on sentence! I have no idea what your point is?
Kroothawk wrote:Summary:
CSM Codex stays viable for Renegade Marines.
Legions Codex will come to cover the older Legions like Death Guard and Thousand Sons INA DDITION to the old CSM Codex.
Traitor Guard idea considered but abandonned, now only a unit for Alpha Guard in Legions Codex.
I do like this idea better than a full redo of the CSM book. It means that current models/lists won't be invalidated overnight and gives all CSM players more options. Only thing I don't want is a rebranded loyalist Land Raider, perhaps something different rules-wise apart from renaming the special abilities.
Yeah, but more than likely, the legions book will blow away the old CSM book, and those lists you've become so attached to will seem antiquated and obsolete. That happens with every codex release. Keeping the old CSM book is just going to encourage people to run no brainer Obliterator/Lash Prince/ Plague marine lists with the old book, and we'll still be seeing those same builds years after the CSM book should have hit the dust. More than likely, they'll change all three of those units, but such is the natural progression of the game, I suppose.
I just don't feel like leaving the current book in the game is a good idea in any way, except to keep certain armies viable for those hobbyists who run genuinely non-legion forces (Like red corsairs and fallen DA armies, which are pretty cool). But even then, I can imagine it wouldn't be too hard to find a legion to fit the general idea of your army. Or maybe I'm over-thinking it, and the CSM book will just fall into obscurity and never be used. I dunno.
I think as long as we can move 12 and fire a single weapon, most CSM players will be happy enough
It all depends on the meltaspam. If the legions codex can still outfit chosen/havocs with all meltas and rhinos with combi-meltas then it might catch my attention. It would be interesting to see if I could run the chaos legions as both pre-heresy and post-heresy with the same book.
I would like to see chaos thrive and become popular again, so long as it doesnt turn into another BA tournament crowding. I went to a tournament yesterday with my necrons and I was the only one. I was actually very happy to not go up against 3 of the same army, only the ringer had necrons. I get the distinct impression they are mainly a tier 2 and 3 army besides the scarab swarm list after finding out how delicate doom scythes are.
With chaos, there is so much diversity, most players hopefully will not spam the dual lash or all nurgle lists with obis since that is the main competitor until this update. For GW to fully cash in, Im expecting at least 3 units never seen before in addition to the rezurrection of the old 3rd edition codex with upgrades only available through new kits
Medium of Death wrote:ADB calls out a liar and is made out to be the bad guy?
What?
This 'ghost21' sounds like an ass. Have his rumours ever been accurate? (Genuine Question)
They've been hit and miss accurate - as has been pointed out in just about every thread he gets mentioned in ever. He claims it's due to his source being involved in the very early part of the design process (i.e. when everything can change afterwards).
Personally? I reckon this Ghost person is in fact Jervis Johnson.
aka_mythos wrote:Those reasons are exactly why a legion codex only in the context of the renegades codex being redone sooner rather than later. Without a redo, there is too much overlap and redundancy... and the fact is there is a concept that makes the renegade book supplement and justify having both exist in parallel.
Holy run on sentence! I have no idea what your point is?
It made more sense before Samus_aran115 edited the preceeding post. This is what I was responding too:
Samus_aran115 wrote:Yeah, but more than likely, the legions book will blow away the old CSM book, and those lists you've become so attached to will seem antiquated and obsolete. That happens with every codex release. Keeping the old CSM book is just going to encourage people to run no brainer Obliterator/Lash Prince/ Plague marine lists with the old book, and we'll still be seeing those same builds years after the CSM book should have hit the dust. More than likely, they'll change all three of those units, but such is the natural progression of the game, I suppose.
To reiterate:
Point 1- The previous renegade codex, doesn't really stand on its own too well, because of obsolecence and redundancies.
Point 2- Having two Chaos codices, where one is the current Renegade codex, only make sense if they plan on reworking the Renegade codex at a later date, but that they'd likely have worked on both jointly.
Point 3- The overlaping themes and the need to work both a Legion codex with atleast forthought to an updated Renegade codex to me says that update would come sooner rather than later.
Point 4-There exists a concept that works for Renegades that justifies two parallel Chaos codices.
Medium of Death wrote:ADB calls out a liar and is made out to be the bad guy?
What?
This 'ghost21' sounds like an ass. Have his rumours ever been accurate? (Genuine Question)
That's Warseer/B&C for you. ADB didn't do anything so confrontational either - he said some of those rumors were probably untrue, and then ghost21 started doing this creepy cyberstalker thing where he was saying he's met ADB and stuff, when ADB says he knows everyone he's met in meetings, and ghost21 isn't one of them.
As for rumor quality, ghost21 refuted rumors from BoK and Yakface that ended up being completely true (Necrons) and said that if Sisters didn't get a proper codex with plastic models et al. before the end of 2011 he'd run naked through London. The only thing close to an accurate rumor he's had is "Something with boats that isn't ManO'War" and that's it. Everything else has been off by a mile.
I myself believe that either Ghost21 is just a kid making up random rumours in his room, and we therefore shoulden't believe a word of what he is saying, or his dad works for GW and he occationaly oveerhears something in early development, and he makes the rest of the stuff up. At least that explains his horrendus spelling.
Bonde wrote:I myself believe that either Ghost21 is just a kid making up random rumours in his room, and we therefore shoulden't believe a word of what he is saying, or his dad works for GW and he occationaly oveerhears something in early development, and he makes the rest of the stuff up. At least that explains his horrendus spelling.
So the "My uncle works for Nintendo and they're already playing Pokemon PURPLE VERSION on their N65!!!!" explanation. I'll accept that.
Bonde wrote:I myself believe that either Ghost21 is just a kid making up random rumours in his room, and we therefore shoulden't believe a word of what he is saying, or his dad works for GW and he occationaly oveerhears something in early development, and he makes the rest of the stuff up. At least that explains his horrendus spelling.
Personally I doubt what you're saying... but IF he was, he should be writing the codex, because simply these ideas are some of the best ideas for a chaos codex.
brilliant!"
builds years after the 