English Assassin wrote:Significantly to this discussion, both of the aforementioned books are more entertaining reads than the forthcoming Chaos codex is likely to be.
How do you figure that? My guess is that they'll have to cram a lot of different fluff into the legions book, but that doesn't really mean it'll be worse than the current one.
Ignoring the nutters overreacting, it's really it's just my pessimism and nostalgia for Rogue Trader speaking. That and my disappointment with the present trend in the studio's background material towards clichéd melodrama of the "Bwa-ha-ha! Let no good deed go unpunished!" variety. If we actually get a codex which allows workable, characterful single-Legion armies, it would be an improvement. The prospect of the studio producing a Chaos codex that's competitive, balanced and which adequately represents the background on the tabletop just seems too remote for me ever to believe it possible, when the previous four (yes, even the much-loved 3.5 codex) have failed so badly to do so.
Medium of Death wrote:This 'ghost21' ... Have his rumours ever been accurate? (Genuine Question)
Off the top of my head...Some of his rumors have been accurate, though these relate largely to DreadFleet:
First guy to state a special box set game would be released for September
First guy to state it was Fantasy and not Warhamer Quest or Mordheim
First guy to state that it involved miniature ships
For Necrons:
First guy to state C'tan would not appear in the codex
First to state Necrons would get a flying chariot
I think it would be funnier (and make for a longer post) if you posted on what he was wrong about on Necrons. Also, all three of the other rumors about Dreadfleet are sort of the same.
Sorry, I don't think I understand how the three rumors are the same?
The first rumor states that it was a Box Game Set that would be released in September. Rather than an expansion to a pre-existing game like Cities of Death or Spearhead for 40K.
The second rumor stated that it was Fantasy themed. Rather than 40K.
The last rumor stated that it involved ships. Rather than featuring war machines, monsterous creatures, or infantry.
In an ideal world we would see a single Realm of Chaos style book with rules for LatD armies, full Daemon armies with options for monotheistic lists, rules for all the Legions as well as renegades, and the option for units in these lists to be merged with limitations of course. But only selling one book to all chaos players? That wouldn't make the maximum profit possible.
I'm dissapointed to see opinion from AD-B that there won't be seperate Legion and Renegade codices, also to see the rumour that LatD have been scrapped as a concept, but these are only opinions. I both disagree with and dislike the notion of three individual Legion codices, as it is not a flexible creative concept and is impractical in that it will burden GW with unnecessary armies to update. I would really like to see a joint renegade Astartes/LatD codex, even if for purely selfish reasons, and I do disagree with the rumour that cutists will only be available to Alpha Legion, partly because they are prevalents for other Legions like Iron Warriors and Black Legion and particularly the Word Bearers but also because this will not be a profitabler marketing choice for GW (this is GW though).
The following might be wishlisting, but it would be nice if:
- Legions will be take the 3.5 approach regarding Legion rules, not the 5th ed concept of Special Characters; - Cultists, Mutants, Traitors etc. are available to all Legions in the Legion codex; - There will be a Chaos Renegades codex, with a focus on LatD with, to a lesser extent, a Renegade Marine and Legion prescence, this would would represent Alpha Legion perfectly - Perhaps renegade Chapters could still be available in the Legions Codex but with a focus on the Red Corsairs so to keep it Legion themed; - Individual units for Legionares and younger Astartes, more recently recruited into Legions or belonging to a renegade Chapter. I saw good speculation on this in (I'm pretty sure) the previous Chaos thread. - Dark Apostles and Warsmiths. These are central concepts to the Word Bearers and Iron Warriors and should never have been taken out of the codex. - I have mentioned in the previous Chaos thread Daemon Engines, marked Daemons, etc.
Brother SRM wrote:I think it would be funnier (and make for a longer post) if you posted on what he was wrong about on Necrons. Also, all three of the other rumors about Dreadfleet are sort of the same.
I provided a summary of his Necron rumors back in another thread
First guy to state C'tan would not appear in the codex
Why's this in your list of 'right' rumors...?
Because there are no C'Tan in the Necron codex. Just shards. If you think Shards are the same as having a Living God present on the skirmish table, I guess, we will just agree to disagree up front . Anyways, prior to Ghost stating that the C'tan would no longer be a playable option, the rumors mills were alive with news of a new and upcoming C'Tan and several predicted that it would be a the Dragon. Ghost disagreed stating it was a poor decision in the previous codex and that you wouldn't expect Chaos players to be able to field Khorne. Then Yakface stated that C'tan would be playable but were being moved to elites. Weeks later, Yakface corrected himself and said that the C'Tan would not be featured in the new codex but thier would be a new elite entry call Shards that were actually constructs created by the Necron's....and there was much wailing and gnashing of teeth .
wyomingfox wrote:Because there are no C'Tan in the Necron codex. Just shards. If you think Shards are the same as having a Living God present on the skirmish table, I guess, we will just agree to disagree up front.
Well, you could use the same logic to say there are no Necron Warriors, Lords or Destroyers in the codex since they all received substantial updates from and are not at all in their original form. It is a strange distinction.
For all intensive purposes the C'tan weren't in the codex. The "C'tan" present there were a disgrace and Matt Ward clearly wanted to get rid of them to the absolute limit he was allowed to.
Though it's debatable if ghost21 meant it that way...
Harriticus wrote:For all intensive purposes the C'tan weren't in the codex. The "C'tan" present there were a disgrace and Matt Ward clearly wanted to get rid of them to the absolute limit he was allowed to.
I disagree. they finally have a point other then being badass, and you get versatility in a model that was basically just a greater daemon of badass.
Deathly Angel wrote:- Legions will be take the 3.5 approach regarding Legion rules, not the 5th ed concept of Special Characters.
This would indeed be ideal. A few tweaks, and they could just re-release 3.5 for 6th ed.
- Cultists, Mutants, Traitors etc. are available to all Legions in the Legion codex.
A few wouldn't have these options. IW definitely don't seem the type to allow weak humans into their ranks.
- There will be a Chaos Renegades codex, with a focus on LatD with, to a lesser extent, a Renegade Marine and Legion prescence, this would would represent Alpha Legion perfectly.
Brother SRM wrote:I think it would be funnier (and make for a longer post) if you posted on what he was wrong about on Necrons. Also, all three of the other rumors about Dreadfleet are sort of the same.
I provided a summary of his Necron rumors back in another thread
He was right about Dreadfleet, that gave him credit.
With Necrons (according to your list), most of his hits were rather unimpressive:
1.) Current plastic kit will not change doh
2.) Might get a big gun doh.
3.) No more gods that can be killed by a lucky shot doh (long time rumour)
4.) November release (long time rumour since stickmonkey)
5.) He fell for the false long time rumour about the big humanoid walker, providing wrong details.
So with Necrons, his hit probability is less than 50%, less than educated or even random guesses.
I won't start on Sororitas (can anyone ask him on Warseer for pics running naked through London or Nottingham? )
And everytime, someone asks for new rumours, he provides them, whatever the topic, every second day.
Deathly Angel wrote: - Cultists, Mutants, Traitors etc. are available to all Legions in the Legion codex.
A few wouldn't have these options. IW definitely don't seem the type to allow weak humans into their ranks.
I did hear somewhere that Iron Warriors use cultists as cannon fodder during sieges, but then again it was from a poster on Dakka and it is quite a bit too similar to the Word Bearers' tactics. I agree with you that they shouldn't be in the same force, maybe they'd be better suited as an allied army in Apocalypse games perhaps.
Boo to that. Alpha Legion get their own codex.
Alpha Legion rules and special units in both codices would be nice, with limitations in the Legions codex, representing a more Astartes orientated Alpha Legion force. They could have the sneaky marine special units in the Legions book with one special unit for operatives, with other human special units for them in the Renegades book.
Harriticus wrote:For all intensive purposes the C'tan weren't in the codex. The "C'tan" present there were a disgrace and Matt Ward clearly wanted to get rid of them to the absolute limit he was allowed to.
I disagree. they finally have a point other then being badass, and you get versatility in a model that was basically just a greater daemon of badass.
Thye are a lot better, being an average of 65 pts cheaper than before. But lets stay on topic, so Alpha Legion....they are sounding like the only official Chaos Legion from what I've skimmed in the rumors and the CSM codex will still be valid? I hope thats a misunderstanding, Im tired of all these new marine dexes, give us some chaos not just traitors!
Harriticus wrote:For all intensive purposes the C'tan weren't in the codex. The "C'tan" present there were a disgrace and Matt Ward clearly wanted to get rid of them to the absolute limit he was allowed to.
Though it's debatable if ghost21 meant it that way...
First of all, representing literal gods on the tabletop is stupid. It makes no sense. ASPECTS of the gods, like the C'tan shards, the Avatar of Khaine, or the greater daemons of Chaos are cool. Aren't they pretty comparable in power now anyway, at least for the cost? Also, never say "for all intensive purposes" ever. The phrase is "for all intents and purposes" and misusing it like that can make someone look very foolish in how they present themselves. It also makes decidedly little sense as an actual phrase.
Deathly Angel wrote:
I did hear somewhere that Iron Warriors use cultists as cannon fodder during sieges, but then again it was from a poster on Dakka and it is quite a bit too similar to the Word Bearers' tactics. I agree with you that they shouldn't be in the same force, maybe they'd be better suited as an allied army in Apocalypse games perhaps.
That's from Storm of Iron, a solid BL book about the Iron Warriors in a protracted siege of an Imperial planet. It's awesome. They use hordes of slaves and prisoners with dummy rifles to run out in front of their actual army. The Imperials see a horde of ragged people charging towards them holding weapons, so they fire artillery at them. In doing so the Iron Warriors both test the ranges of the Imperial guns, and demoralize them once they figure out who they're shelling. I'm pretty sure every Chaos legion would be pretty happy to use cultists, freaks, mutants, and whatever other hordes of evil crap they could get their hands on.
Harriticus wrote:For all intensive purposes the C'tan weren't in the codex. The "C'tan" present there were a disgrace and Matt Ward clearly wanted to get rid of them to the absolute limit he was allowed to.
Though it's debatable if ghost21 meant it that way...
First of all, representing literal gods on the tabletop is stupid. It makes no sense. ASPECTS of the gods, like the C'tan shards, the Avatar of Khaine, or the greater daemons of Chaos are cool. Aren't they pretty comparable in power now anyway, at least for the cost? Also, never say "for all intensive purposes" ever. The phrase is "for all intents and purposes" and misusing it like that can make someone look very foolish in how they present themselves. It also makes decidedly little sense as an actual phrase.
Deathly Angel wrote:
I did hear somewhere that Iron Warriors use cultists as cannon fodder during sieges, but then again it was from a poster on Dakka and it is quite a bit too similar to the Word Bearers' tactics. I agree with you that they shouldn't be in the same force, maybe they'd be better suited as an allied army in Apocalypse games perhaps.
That's from Storm of Iron, a solid BL book about the Iron Warriors in a protracted siege of an Imperial planet. It's awesome. They use hordes of slaves and prisoners with dummy rifles to run out in front of their actual army. The Imperials see a horde of ragged people charging towards them holding weapons, so they fire artillery at them. In doing so the Iron Warriors both test the ranges of the Imperial guns, and demoralize them once they figure out who they're shelling. I'm pretty sure every Chaos legion would be pretty happy to use cultists, freaks, mutants, and whatever other hordes of evil crap they could get their hands on.
Indeed they do, in both The Skull Harvest and Dead Sky, Black SunIW is clearly stated as using cultists as cannon fodder.
A lot.
Durza wrote:
Boo to that. Alpha Legion get their own codex.
Because only Imperials should have 8 different books/PDFs to represent their fighting forces
(And before you ask... Space Marines, Dark Angels, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Black Templars, Grey Knights, Sisters of Battle, Imperial Guard - 8! 8 Imperial armies! AH AH AH!)
Why not do a big book similar to the ultramarine codex style where a lot of stuff is there. The basics of the chaos legions codex is there, and certain special charecters might have army wide traits (like the Ultramarine, Salamander, Crimson Fists, White Scars special charecters).
If don't want to limit it to special charecters, then we can still have it in the codex as sub rules. It probably can't be more than 2 pages if its stuff like if you are world bearers, you can't have scounts, etc.
So Black legion will be like ultramarines - the basic core CSM. And the other traitor legions will add further flavour by having their own subset of rules, a bit like like how Crimson fists sternguard units are scoring and stubborn, and how Salamander troops get twin linked meltas, flamers, and storm hammers.
Eldenfirefly wrote:Why not do a big book similar to the ultramarine codex style where a lot of stuff is there. The basics of the chaos legions codex is there, and certain special charecters might have army wide traits (like the Ultramarine, Salamander, Crimson Fists, White Scars special charecters).
The problem is where the SM characters are representative of their chapters a large proportion of the CSM characters are quite the opposite. As has already been pointed out Ahriman and Typhus are known exiles/rebels of their Legion who openly go against the daemon primarch's will (in Ahriman's case it was casting the Rubric, in Typhus' case it's by refusing to just settle on the daemon world the Legion was granted). Kharn's not much better (I don't think single handedly ripping apart your Legion's structure is a good representation) and there are no SCs for Iron Warriors, Alpha Legion, Word Bearers or Night Lords at the moment.
Bit hard to take the SM approach without either a major fluff overhaul (and considering Ahriman and Kharn have been kicking around since 2nd edition...not that likely) or a whole slew of new SCs. We're going to have to wait and see. To be honest I'd like to see something similar to the Traits/Doctrines of the older codices - but rather than getting a freebie make it purchaseable like a 'mark'.
CSM (or Chaos Legions or whatever you want to call them) have grown up soooooo much from their creation that a single book is not enough to cover everything. As different SM chapters have been given relevance, they have been given a codex. Why chaos has to be tied to a 96 pages codex. We won't get a 300 pages codex, so any length will be not enough.
If we get just one codex, it won't represent what they say Chaos followers are.
Then don't tie it to the SCs. Just make a one or two page of special rules which govern specific traitor legions. I mean, if I was to summarize the blood angels, space wolves and black templar special rules, it would probably all fit into just two pages.
And Salamanders special rule was tied to a SC. But there really is no reason it can't just be tied to a Salamander army in general without requiring the SC to be there. We just have to balance it out by either paying a point cost for it, or having an associated penalty.
Example: World Bearers - All infantry units gets furious charge. But penalty - cannot take scouts.
Night Lords - All infantry units gets infiltrate and scouts rule. Penalty - cannot take vehicles!
If its something like that, you could easily have a generic army list and rules for Black Legion like Ultramarines. Then a two page special rules for all the other traitor legions.
If it was really good and nicely done, i wouldn't mind a 200pages book at 35$ for a real nice Legion list.
And i think i'm not the only one thinking this way.
What i don't understand is why since the release of the book, there wasn't any Errata where we did get back the Infernal Engine rule, Where Kharn got his EW back and so on.
This could have easely settle down the anger of most of the CSM players, after all DA and BT's did have an Errata like this,where DA could fill in a 15man LR crusader contrary of the classic 12 man Crusader in their Codex...
An Errata that would have fixed the stupidity of the Deamon Weapons and other things..., but for whatever reasons they did not...
I would be willing to pay more if the book was thick enough and had lots of fluff and variiety in it. Really I would.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Anyway, I think the traitor legions are more thematic and fluffy than the renegades, and there's more info too. I am just not sure if there is enough material for renegades to justify another entire book.
I mean, sure Red Corsairs are cool, but do they really need a seperate set of rules? Red Corsairs have never stuck me as having a particular battle style unlike say World Bearers. How do you fill up a whole book on renegades? They are jsut all rebels and that's it. Its an excuse to throw in every single possible imperium and space marine unit into a list. Because you could even argue that any space marine chapter can go completely renegade, and so can an imperial regiment.
So, renegades is just anyone who has rebelled against the emperor or fallen into chaos after the Horus Heresy. You hardly need another army book just for that. Unless, you really want to have an army list like the Grey Knights and inquisition which can take imperial guardsmen plus space marines and plus daemons to boot.
garrapignado wrote:CSM (or Chaos Legions or whatever you want to call them) have grown up soooooo much from their creation that a single book is not enough to cover everything. As different SM chapters have been given relevance, they have been given a codex. Why chaos has to be tied to a 96 pages codex. We won't get a 300 pages codex, so any length will be not enough.
If we get just one codex, it won't represent what they say Chaos followers are.
I have no idea why people keep saying this. The 3.5 ed codex is pretty much where these Legions have "grown up" to since their creation, and everything fit in there. I don't think we should exactly return to that codex, but it proves that you can do a lot in one book.
garrapignado wrote:CSM (or Chaos Legions or whatever you want to call them) have grown up soooooo much from their creation that a single book is not enough to cover everything. As different SM chapters have been given relevance, they have been given a codex. Why chaos has to be tied to a 96 pages codex. We won't get a 300 pages codex, so any length will be not enough.
If we get just one codex, it won't represent what they say Chaos followers are.
I have no idea why people keep saying this. The 3.5 ed codex is pretty much where these Legions have "grown up" to since their creation, and everything fit in there. I don't think we should exactly return to that codex, but it proves that you can do a lot in one book.
I agree. An extra five pages in that codex would have fit in pretty much everything else- mutants and traitors, etc
Extra five pages would also work for DA, BA, BT, but they wrote full codexes. Why to surrender and get satisfied with "five extra pages"? "bad marines" can be nearly as profitable as "good marines" with proper treatment but they won't work in that direction if we just sit and ask for "five extra pages". That's why people keep saying this. I have a self created chaos legion, so I would easily buy every different chaos book, as it gives me a wider range of fun when playing my chaos marines. in the same way, I have loyal marines, and I created a home made chapter, so I can play them as vanilla, BA, DA, etc when needed/desired.
Also, some of us want tons of fluff and pics in our codexes, not only rules. We could really write one codex to imperials and one codex to enemies if we only pay attention to rules. If we were talking about merging all marines codexes, thousand of voices would rise against it.
As Conan movie says: "that is another story". Chaos can be blamed for many things, but not this (yet) . Chaos has always have only one real codex at a time and we had to wait those years anyway for DE, Necrons.... (LatD was a minicodex, as Catachan was, and I think nobody will blame IG for the delay).
But hey, my wishes don't have to be others' wishes. And to say more, this is a rumours post, not a wishes one, so I will keep it rumour-oriented.
garrapignado wrote:CSM (or Chaos Legions or whatever you want to call them) have grown up soooooo much from their creation that a single book is not enough to cover everything. As different SM chapters have been given relevance, they have been given a codex. Why chaos has to be tied to a 96 pages codex. We won't get a 300 pages codex, so any length will be not enough.
If we get just one codex, it won't represent what they say Chaos followers are.
I have no idea why people keep saying this. The 3.5 ed codex is pretty much where these Legions have "grown up" to since their creation, and everything fit in there. I don't think we should exactly return to that codex, but it proves that you can do a lot in one book.
I agree. An extra five pages in that codex would have fit in pretty much everything else- mutants and traitors, etc
I agree with garrapignado. The Chaos codicies have all failed on the translating concept of what Chaos marines are suppose to be on to the tabletop. Whether they're 10,000 year old Legionaires or Renegade and traitor marines and guard... nothing about the actual units represent that relative to the base line loyalist marines. So adding "five extra pages" or more to the 3.5 ed codex isn't going to fix the problem. The 3.5 ed codex fails because it trys to do too much just for the sake of doing, but isn't all that substantive in distiguishing chaos from loyalists or settling on a unifying theme.
Simply given what chaos legionaries are they should have more in common with GK than loyalist... an elite army. As they are its like they went to eye of terror, sold their soul and all they "got was this t-shirt." Renegades can be more the pale imitation of loyalist marines, but then they need to have conceptual elements showing how they continue to survive without the greater resources of the imperium... and shouldn't be these relative noobs who just because they say their chaos suddenly gain access to 10,000 year old equipment and daemons.
theDarkGeneral wrote:Either way, time will tell which of us were correct, but most really has to do with SilverStraight posted, which is "things change" within the process of GW books/codices. Nice to see he also confirmed one of my earlier rumors, with his own "rumor" that it's already been mentioned that the current Chaos Codex will be referred to as "Chaos Renegades" with a White Dwarf update. As for the NEW Chaos Codex, a simple "Chaos: Legions" name should suffice.
Some of my previous info may actually be Apocalypse Formations stuff, that will be released around the same time as the new Codex. Maybe the Brazen Knights/Brass Knights/Blood Knights?
I just had a wicked thought. What if GW actually puts people on internet forums to gain a reputation posting rumours, and then uses their reputation to get feedback on potential product releases? And then, according to the feedback they get on the internet, they may or may not change the potential book? It wouldn't be very hard. This whole "fight" between ADB and Ghost could just be propaganda :3
Then again, when does GW do anything that we actually like?
Just thinking aloud. There seems to be way too much back and forth from people in the management and supposed rumour providers. Either that, or I've never noticed it before.
Samus_aran115 wrote:I just had a wicked thought. What if GW actually puts people on internet forums to gain a reputation posting rumours, and then uses their reputation to get feedback on potential product releases? And then, according to the feedback they get on the internet, they may or may not change the potential book? It wouldn't be very hard. This whole "fight" between ADB and Ghost could just be propaganda :3
That would require a degree of planning and competency that exceeds any GW has exhibited.
Agree with the GK comparison actually. These guys are 10k years old and fewer in number. They should be veteraned/optioned up to the hilt with extra BS/WS/I and fill the gaps with the Lost and Damned and Daemons... surprisingly exactly like how the fluff describes... :O
Some of these rumours sound promising. In regards to special characters i've been waiting for a while for the Chaos guys to actually have toble top rules to represent how powerful they supposedly are. Ahriman who's apparently as powerful as a Lord of Change has not been so since the LoC boasted a 5+ invul save and Abaddon the big lord of chaos should be able to hand any other 40k character their ass in my opinion.
Some new vehicles sound overdue. Usable possessed is also overdue. New plastic kits, i'm impartial too as I collect world eaters and have a very substantial bits box.
The rumours on here have often been fairly accurate, timing has always been a bit off but the general flow has hit the target.
So I am expecting with some confidence bigger, badder chaos.. likely to have at least two books and to get some more flexibility with vehicles, daemons and colour back into them. Sounds sexy.
I was wondering is it still possible to use the 3.5 codex in a game? I know some of the things in the codex need tweaking but looking at it i was thinking i could still use it in a game
As long as the guy you are playing against is okay with it, litterately anything goes. Noone says that you are even forced to play this edition ruleset or even GW rules. Just ask the guy(or girl) in advance, and know the rules yourself, and everything should be okay.
GentlemanGuy wrote:I was wondering is it still possible to use the 3.5 codex in a game? I know some of the things in the codex need tweaking but looking at it i was thinking i could still use it in a game
Yeah sure, as long as you have a physical copy, I don't think too many people would have a problem with it.
Samus_aran115 wrote:I just had a wicked thought. What if GW actually puts people on internet forums to gain a reputation posting rumours, and then uses their reputation to get feedback on potential product releases? And then, according to the feedback they get on the internet, they may or may not change the potential book? It wouldn't be very hard. This whole "fight" between ADB and Ghost could just be propaganda :3
Then again, when does GW do anything that we actually like?
Just thinking aloud. There seems to be way too much back and forth from people in the management and supposed rumour providers. Either that, or I've never noticed it before.
Considering everything is done years in advance, there's decidedly little up to date info they could glean from this.
StraightSilver wrote: However Jervis said that as soon as the Dex was released they realised they had made a mistake, and started planning the new Dex almost immediately.
Suffice it to say this new Dex has been in planning for quite some time, and the idea was to reintegrate some of the elements from the Codex before last.
This quote somewhat irks me. If GW was aware of the issues of the book, why didn’t they release additional errata/rules to correct the oversight? It is clear to me that didn’t really care about the negative outcomes and Jervis’ statement was an attempt at trying to save face.
Personally I have a suspicion that any sort of CSM release (errata or otherwise) was held back purposely in order to maximise a 6th Ed release.
Semper wrote:Agree with the GK comparison actually. These guys are 10k years old and fewer in number. They should be veteraned/optioned up to the hilt with extra BS/WS/I and fill the gaps with the Lost and Damned and Daemons... surprisingly exactly like how the fluff describes... :O
actually- that is a common misconception. the few original members of the traitor legions left are not actually 10'000 years old. time flows differently in the warp, which is why warp travel is so effective. it turns days into seconds, years into minutes, etcetera. it doesn't make you instantly immortal or eternally young.
a traitor marine might only be a few hundred years older if he has spent almost all of his time in the Eye since the Heresy. therefore, your average Heresy-era traitor could only have the experience of a normal marine, maybe a little better at the most.
Semper wrote:Agree with the GK comparison actually. These guys are 10k years old and fewer in number. They should be veteraned/optioned up to the hilt with extra BS/WS/I and fill the gaps with the Lost and Damned and Daemons... surprisingly exactly like how the fluff describes... :O
actually- that is a common misconception. the few original members of the traitor legions left are not actually 10'000 years old. time flows differently in the warp, which is why warp travel is so effective. it turns days into seconds, years into minutes, etcetera. it doesn't make you instantly immortal or eternally young.
a traitor marine might only be a few hundred years older if he has spent almost all of his time in the Eye since the Heresy. therefore, your average Heresy-era traitor could only have the experience of a normal marine, maybe a little better at the most.
Pretty sure it can flow the other way too...
Some of the rumours sound terrible though... my major gripe with Chaos is the inherent randomness that the developers feel the need to ram down our throats. If a unit doesn't engage in combat then it suffers some penalty on a d6 roll..? Chrono Gladiators, I do like the concept... but on a space marine? Umm why would a marine get turned into one.. doesn't really seem to fit to me. Sure Angron was a gladiator, but still.. give us berserker surgeons or something else.
Also drop Fabius Bile or completely rework him as a character, no one I know takes him. There's a black legion character who supposedly distils all life on a planet to create an elixir for himself, which supposedly makes himself invincible, new blood like that would be great in the codex.
Semper wrote:Agree with the GK comparison actually. These guys are 10k years old and fewer in number. They should be veteraned/optioned up to the hilt with extra BS/WS/I and fill the gaps with the Lost and Damned and Daemons... surprisingly exactly like how the fluff describes... :O
actually- that is a common misconception. the few original members of the traitor legions left are not actually 10'000 years old. time flows differently in the warp, which is why warp travel is so effective. it turns days into seconds, years into minutes, etcetera. it doesn't make you instantly immortal or eternally young.
a traitor marine might only be a few hundred years older if he has spent almost all of his time in the Eye since the Heresy. therefore, your average Heresy-era traitor could only have the experience of a normal marine, maybe a little better at the most.
Actually, the more favour that a CSM has, the longer they will live- Ahriman doesn't live in the Eye, Lucius goes god knows where, Typhus roams around causing fear and death, Bile lives in the Imperium. So Chosen and Terminators certainly should be better than the Space Marine equivalent.
grimz wrote:
Pretty sure it can flow the other way too...
Some of the rumours sound terrible though... my major gripe with Chaos is the inherent randomness that the developers feel the need to ram down our throats. If a unit doesn't engage in combat then it suffers some penalty on a d6 roll..? Chrono Gladiators, I do like the concept... but on a space marine? Umm why would a marine get turned into one.. doesn't really seem to fit to me. Sure Angron was a gladiator, but still.. give us berserker surgeons or something else.
Also drop Fabius Bile or completely rework him as a character, no one I know takes him. There's a black legion character who supposedly distils all life on a planet to create an elixir for himself, which supposedly makes himself invincible, new blood like that would be great in the codex.
Unless Chrono Gladiators are simply Khorne cultist's, I kinda agree. Berzerkers already go chasing any living thing in an insane manner... the idea that a small bomb mounted in the their brain is going to some how motiviate them even more seems silly. Maybe its a punishment for the less crazy killers. The only other possible way I can see it working is if they're somehow trying to justify an elite Berzerker that has something like the eversor assassin's whole exploding upon death thing and with a greater number of attacks but Chrono Gladiators exist in the fluff and carry certain preestablished notions that just don't jive with World Eaters or Berzerkers.
Fabius Bile, I think one of two things should happen to him. Either he gets moved over to "Renegades" under the justification of being more of loaner living secretly in Imperial territory and needing less tainted marines to experiment on... where he'd fit in studying the mutants that would be present in a Traitor component of the army. Or Fabius should just become a chaos marine squad upgrade character, like Telion or Harker in their respective codices. Fabius, rather than making a whole army "different" should simply upgrade a single accompanying squad in a similar but more consistently effective way.
I do agree that CSM should be made more similar to GK then standard Space Marines, as these guys are veterans of a 10,000 year war who have sold themselves to Daemons for power. Cultists/heretics/mutants should be the cannon fodder the "elites" employ. And lots of Daemon summoning of course. Any Codex with chaos in the name should be reprensentative of Chaos, so this pirate/mercenary "renegade" Space Marine stuff should be toned down or at least put into the vanilla space marine dex.
Durza wrote:
Actually, the more favour that a CSM has, the longer they will live- Ahriman doesn't live in the Eye, Lucius goes god knows where, Typhus roams around causing fear and death, Bile lives in the Imperium. So Chosen and Terminators certainly should be better than the Space Marine equivalent.
Fair point, but that has nothing to do with natural warp-time-dilation. It is purely the favour of the gods. The big four champions i would imagine would be kept alive (and respawned upon death) but it isnt really old age that gets a space marine. it is war.
It has been speculated that space marines are essentially immortal- or at least so long-lived so as to make no difference, but few live that long to test the theory. almost all die in combat.
therefore, a chaos god would have no need to extend the life of a marine, merely give him divine hep to keep him alive through the centuries of combat, or ressurect him afterwards. the ressurecting only happen with the big champions so far as we know, but the "helping hand" comes in the shape of chaos gifts and mutations, the 'blessings' of the dark gods.
Harriticus wrote:I do agree that CSM should be made more similar to GK then standard Space Marines, as these guys are veterans of a 10,000 year war who have sold themselves to Daemons for power. Cultists/heretics/mutants should be the cannon fodder the "elites" employ. And lots of Daemon summoning of course. Any Codex with chaos in the name should be reprensentative of Chaos, so this pirate/mercenary "renegade" Space Marine stuff should be toned down or at least put into the vanilla space marine dex.
read what i said a few posts up- none of the traitor marines (except MAYBE the big four champions) are 10'000 years old. most would have died, and those who havent are only a few centuries (maybe a few millenia) older due to the time dilating effects of the warp. time flows differently in the warp, remember? it doesnt grant immortality.
Blackhoof wrote:It has been speculated that space marines are essentially immortal- or at least so long-lived so as to make no difference, but few live that long to test the theory. almost all die in combat.
This is why Dante is meant to be nails - 1,200+ years old, last time I checked.
Dante is over 1000 years old. Lysander was trapped in the warp for about that long and he can't recall a time Dante wasn't number 1 blood angel.
As for the discussion on the traitor marines age. These guys have fought for the entirety of their lives. They fought in the horus heresy, 13+ black crusades and continually in the EoT. Even if time does flow differently.. it's been 10,000 years and not all of that they've spent inside the eye. Either way these guys are not the equal of your normal b&b marine...no way and i'd extend the uberness of the four great champs' beyond them too.. i'm sure there will be many another chaos lord or even primarch who's as big and bad if not more.
This is why Dante is meant to be nails - 1,200+ years old, last time I checked.
No way that Dante is a millenia old..., even the Primarchs din't live past 600 years or so.
Dante is renowed to be the oldest still alive and not in a Dreadnought, but he is "only" like 500 years old.
"Commander Dante is one of the most experienced and able Space Marine Commanders. In no small part, this is due to the longevity of the Blood Angels, which he has ruled for 1,100 years"
Dante wrote:For eleven hundred years, I have fought and I have seen the darkness in our galaxy. I have seen the vileness of the alien and the heresy of the mutant. I have witnessed the sin of possession. I have seen all the evil that the galaxy harbours, and I have slain all whose presence defiles the Emperor. I have seen what you will see. I have fought what you must fight, and I have slain what you must slay... so fear not and be proud, for we are the sons of Sanguinius, the protectors of Mankind. Aye, we are indeed the Angels of Death.
The complete lack of information and inspiration, uplifting things relating to the Thousand Sons is disappointing to say the least. I really hope this book isn't another Nurgle/Khorne fest while the other 2 get left behind and forgotten.
Can't blame people for not playing Thousand Sons and Emps Children and these armies being so unpopular when their rules have been complete crap for 10 years or more.
This is why Dante is meant to be nails - 1,200+ years old, last time I checked.
No way that Dante is a millenia old..., even the Primarchs din't live past 600 years or so.
Dante is renowed to be the oldest still alive and not in a Dreadnought, but he is "only" like 500 years old.
Sauce? No primarch has died a natural death, as far as I know.
I don't think it's too much for a Chaos God to keep a marine alive. It's not like they're tattered husks barely clinging to life. They're rippling masses of flesh and muscle, every nerve twitching with untamed force and rage. They have millennia of hatred and angst against the corpse emperor and his minions. I would sincerely doubt that they wouldn't be any better than a regular space marines. But. Being as powerful as GKs is an entirely different issue.
Spoiler:
In the ultramarines novels, uriel fights some basic rank and file Iron warriors on medrengard. He's almost entirely destroyed, except he (A CAPTAIN of the ULTRAMARINES) just barely manages to fight his way out (I forget how. Something to do with it's legs)... They're described as absolute monsters. Then in another novel he comes into contact with some GKs, which totally blow him away in skill and strength. I mean, Graham McNeill really gave them justice. Just a magnificent description. I think I'll read that book again now
I would actually support different "Chaos Space Marines" troops choices from legion to legion. For example, IW could be -1Initiative and +1 S, while alpha legion could be... Infiltrating and -1 LD or something. It could work. I can't remember off the top of my head, but I think the 3.5 dex did something like this.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Nvs wrote:The complete lack of information and inspiration, uplifting things relating to the Thousand Sons is disappointing to say the least. I really hope this book isn't another Nurgle/Khorne fest while the other 2 get left behind and forgotten.
Can't blame people for not playing Thousand Sons and Emps Children and these armies being so unpopular when their rules have been complete crap for 10 years or more.
Have you read "A Thousand Sons"
It's a good book. It seems like everyone complains about the 1ksons, but there's plenty of good morsels in the book they actually have.
aka_mythos wrote:The only other possible way I can see it working is if they're somehow trying to justify an elite Berzerker that has something like the eversor assassin's whole exploding upon death thing
You had better doubly hope Ward isn't the author, then.
aka_mythos wrote:The only other possible way I can see it working is if they're somehow trying to justify an elite Berzerker that has something like the eversor assassin's whole exploding upon death thing
You had better doubly hope Ward isn't the author, then.
Mind you that Cruddace has exploding collars on penal legion right there in the fluff, but it doesn't serve any purpose in game. That unit should count as having frag grenades if they let one of their dudes' collars explode in the right direction.
The gladiators things doesn't make any sense to me, though, considering how they are handling Angron in the Heresy series. He didn't really appreciate having to fight for other people's entertainment, so I don't see how his Legion would take it up so casually.
Blackhoof wrote:thats why he IS nails. it takes being DANTE to survive that long.
So basic Horus Heresy Veterans should all be strength 6 toughness 6 right?
no.... im suggesting that none of them have ACTUALLY lived that long. besides, even if, for some reason, against all current fluff, going into the Eye froze you in time but you could still move around and do stuff without ageing, all the neverending fighting and combat in the Eye would kill you eventually.
Semper wrote:
As for the discussion on the traitor marines age. These guys have fought for the entirety of their lives. They fought in the horus heresy, 13+ black crusades and continually in the EoT. Even if time does flow differently.. it's been 10,000 years and not all of that they've spent inside the eye. Either way these guys are not the equal of your normal b&b marine...no way and i'd extend the uberness of the four great champs' beyond them too.. i'm sure there will be many another chaos lord or even primarch who's as big and bad if not more.
and an ordinary space marine hasn't fought for the entirety of their lives? what makes a chaos marine superior to an ordinary marine in this regard? sace marines spend centuries training and fighting, just like chaos marines. sure it has been 10'000 years but do you have any idea how much the warp dilates time? a lot. enough that a trip taking a lightyear only takes a few hours in the warp.
besides, the occasional realspace raid would hardly have an effect on their ageing. how long did each crusade last? a few months or years? hardly enough to make a dent in the centuries of a space marine's life.
I would like to point out the special characters excluding huron are all over 10,000 years old. And before you point out god favors Cypher is over 10,000 years and sure the gods watch over him he is not a worshipper of them.
I do reckon most of the traitor legionaires are over 10,000 years old but it has to do with more then the warp. Space marine phsyology and the warp are good reasons but theres also some that might change themselves (Fabius im looking at you) and also the fact all the legions do know how to make and corrupt new marines maybe passing those geneseeds on might do something else aswell
i would love GW to come up with something other then "warp"
Blackhoof wrote:
and an ordinary space marine hasn't fought for the entirety of their lives? what makes a chaos marine superior to an ordinary marine in this regard? sace marines spend centuries training and fighting, just like chaos marines. sure it has been 10'000 years but do you have any idea how much the warp dilates time? a lot. enough that a trip taking a lightyear only takes a few hours in the warp.
besides, the occasional realspace raid would hardly have an effect on their ageing. how long did each crusade last? a few months or years? hardly enough to make a dent in the centuries of a space marine's life.
Compared to how long all original legion members have been fighting? They might as well be wearing diapers. You fail to consider the time that they spent warring BEFORE the heresy, DURING the heresy and AFTER the heresy. Not all legions went to the eye you know. Even those that did didn't exactly spend their time goofing around.
For all intense and purposes, your average CSM = average space marine Veteran. For those that remember, before Mr. Thorpe decided to futt buck the hell out of CSMs, your ordinary CSMs could take veteran skills and the base CSM had the Ld of a SM sergeant. Only space marine veterans were allowed access to the same veteran skillset.
Not a huge difference in-game but very iconic and symbolic of the gap that existed between chaos marines and space marines.
So yes, there's quite a difference in combat superiority.
bhsman wrote:The gladiators things doesn't make any sense to me, though, considering how they are handling Angron in the Heresy series. He didn't really appreciate having to fight for other people's entertainment, so I don't see how his Legion would take it up so casually.
I agree with this post. The Chrono Gladiators are a zany concept IMO and shouldn’t be in the book (even if they loosely existed in the Inquisitor game prior to this).
Someone else made a post about Chaos being misinterpreted as “random” more often than not in the rules/fluff department and if this rumour is true, it could be a sign that this is set to continue in the next book. I’ve always interpreted CSM as bad ass heresy era veterans rather than the current “random moustache twirling villains” interpretation that seems apparent.
Somewhere in the HH books it states that Space Marines are immortal unless killed in combat. It's the degredation of the gene-seed that has been leading to marines possibly dying of old age (though how often does this happen?). Hence maybe Dante got a flawless geneseed and things just melded with him. Same for Grimnar who is no spring chicken agewise.
Hulksmash wrote:Somewhere in the HH books it states that Space Marines are immortal unless killed in combat. It's the degredation of the gene-seed that has been leading to marines possibly dying of old age (though how often does this happen?). Hence maybe Dante got a flawless geneseed and things just melded with him. Same for Grimnar who is no spring chicken agewise.
I remember some quotes to this effect, but it's really that they haven't had time to test, after all... I know there's a lot of comments in various HH books about the 'Older' Sapce Marines that were created on Earth and fought with the Emperor before the Primarchs were recovered.
If i remember right someone was stating no marine had died from old age. And that they would live forever if they weren't bred for war. I wanna say it was a conversation between a marine and a remembrancer (maybe in the first three sons of horus books). Granted I could be wrong since it's been a while
SickSix wrote:If you want to know how long a APCs marine can live, read Nick Kyme's Salamander
Spoiler:
A heresy era Salamander is found alive, but is basically entombed in his power armor and would die if they attempted to move him.
Response spoiler below
Spoiler:
Wasn't he in a self induced sus-an type coma that they would awaken him from for a short time once every generation or so? That does help with the longevity too I'd assume (in a scifi setting of course). Not everyone can get the royal stasis field treatment that Rowboat gets.
Yes, he was woken up once a generation or so. And he was using the sus-an to prolong his longevity. Even so, to survive in a semi-comatose state for 10,000+ years is still an incredible feat and I doubt too many other situations have occured to allow such a thing to happen.
ph34r wrote:So basic Horus Heresy Veterans should all be strength 6 toughness 6 right?
Isn't this the point where someone says "Time in the Warp doesn't always flow forwards?" or words to that effect.
Well, I recall specifically in an ADB novel (Soul Hunter I think?)--he actually talks about their lack of equipment--and one mentions that can't believe they still have what they have. The answer is something along the lines of "Well, the Heresy was just yesterday to us..."
I think it's cool that GW can have a tagline for CSM "veterans of 10,000 years of war", only to have it subverted to the point where people always have to point out that time works differently in the warp so in reality only 5 minutes has passed for them since the Horus Heresy.
ph34r wrote:So basic Horus Heresy Veterans should all be strength 6 toughness 6 right?
Isn't this the point where someone says "Time in the Warp doesn't always flow forwards?" or words to that effect.
Surely a Horus heresy veteran legionnaire would have been functional for at least 1000 of the last 10000 years? Or do they jus pop out of the eye of terror one day, check their space watches, and start wondering why the feth space bugs and robots are running around killing everything? Or are black crusades to them like a monthly thing while in the imperium they happen hundreds of years apart? It doesn't add up.
ph34r wrote:So basic Horus Heresy Veterans should all be strength 6 toughness 6 right?
Isn't this the point where someone says "Time in the Warp doesn't always flow forwards?" or words to that effect.
Surely a Horus heresy veteran legionnaire would have been functional for at least 1000 of the last 10000 years? Or do they jus pop out of the eye of terror one day, check their space watches, and start wondering why the feth space bugs and robots are running around killing everything? Or are black crusades to them like a monthly thing while in the imperium they happen hundreds of years apart? It doesn't add up.
This problem, GW hasn't really put enough thought into this... Chaos Space Marines, are they 10,000 year veterans or are they relatively fresh from the Heresy? If they're veterans their stats should reflect this. If they're from the "past" than their weapons and equipment should reflect this. Even if you take a modest middle ground as you propose, they'd be a 1000 years old and better for it.
Without some passage of time, you can't justify Chaos having to resort to more basic technology or the necessitating the development of daemon engines. That aside, whether its Black Crusades or pirate style raids... Chaos is the aggressor fighting on their terms and in a realistic sense minimizing attrition and mitigating the lack of resources... according to GW Chaos (including the renegades) has as many marine as the Imperium, but unlike the Imperium they aren't surrounded on as many sides by constant attacks and invasions. They are kinda their own enemy, but with the way the codex is written there's no animosity, there are no uber veterans as those who have survived, and no ancient tech for the ones from the past. So it boils down to Chaos is described as a lot of things but it doesn't live up to any of them.
Raxor wrote:I think it's cool that GW can have a tagline for CSM "veterans of 10,000 years of war", only to have it subverted to the point where people always have to point out that time works differently in the warp so in reality only 5 minutes has passed for them since the Horus Heresy.
The eye of terror is a boring place... there's only one X-box between the 500,000 Chaos marines, and the Dark Mechanicum forgot to bring the STC blueprints for chairs... so everyone's standing around. Its actually a really big misunderstanding between Chaos and the Imperium... between Nurgle's gases, Slanneshi mind altering fumes, and Khornes 'roids they aren't out for a war they're just running out to grab some munchies. If there's a "war," its just because the Imperium tried to get out of paying 10,000 years worth of backed retirement benefits.
ph34r wrote:Surely a Horus heresy veteran legionnaire would have been functional for at least 1000 of the last 10000 years? Or do they jus pop out of the eye of terror one day, check their space watches, and start wondering why the feth space bugs and robots are running around killing everything? Or are black crusades to them like a monthly thing while in the imperium they happen hundreds of years apart? It doesn't add up.
I don't disagree with you. I'm sure that for some of them the 'Long War', as it's called, really has been that long. But I think it varies. There might be some crazed World Eater bands who, from their point of view, only just made it off Terra alive. Meanwhile, there's a large sect of Word Bearers who have been waiting 5,000 years to revenge!
I seem to recall in "Soul Hunter" a conversation like:
"For you the assault on Terra happened 10,000 years ago. But for this ship it has been mere decades."
I would suggest that your average CSM would be much stronger than a regular "thin blood" SM simply due to a degeneration of the geneseed over 10,000 years. I also seem to remember reading a few lines to that effect in a BL book. YMMV.
Consider the 1-10 scale that 40k uses. Average the individual skills throughout a unit.
Would we see any actual stat difference between an average Chaos Marine squad and a Codex Marine squad?
A +1 to many of the stats is a BIG DEAL. And the ramifications throughout the ruleset are just as big.
Chaos Marines already get a +1A in melee due to equipment.
Maybe this can be considered to be also due to their expertise.
(I am sure GW didn't plan it that way, but it can work)
[quote = "the dude who keeps arguing the same argument"]
Semper wrote:
As for the discussion on the traitor marines age. These guys have fought for the entirety of their lives. They fought in the horus heresy, 13+ black crusades and continually in the EoT. Even if time does flow differently.. it's been 10,000 years and not all of that they've spent inside the eye. Either way these guys are not the equal of your normal b&b marine...no way and i'd extend the uberness of the four great champs' beyond them too.. i'm sure there will be many another chaos lord or even primarch who's as big and bad if not more.
and an ordinary space marine hasn't fought for the entirety of their lives? what makes a chaos marine superior to an ordinary marine in this regard? sace marines spend centuries training and fighting, just like chaos marines. sure it has been 10'000 years but do you have any idea how much the warp dilates time? a lot. enough that a trip taking a lightyear only takes a few hours in the warp.
besides, the occasional realspace raid would hardly have an effect on their ageing. how long did each crusade last? a few months or years? hardly enough to make a dent in the centuries of a space marine's life.
Are the multitude of answers that followed your post from my peers enough to suade you otherwise? The warp is messed up (as it can run in both directions).. in short we can both supposedly be correct. Not to mention it is the warp.. the factors of time might not even be entirely relevant.. the laws of nature don't directly apply like in the material universe so even the most basic functions and processes of ageing might be absent despite the passage of time.
However my original point does stand. How long did the gothic war take (20-100 years)? and the great crusade (2-300 years)? and the other numerous wars? we're already talking the best part of 1000 years for a huge part of the black legion and abaddon OUTSIDE the warp and in addition the likes of Abaddon and Ahriman (who's spent most of the 10,000 years wandering outside the warp) were space marines even before the emperor found the primarchs. So if they are.. no reason to think some, if not many of the other original traitor legions are equally as venerable. How about the Alpha Legion who are all still around and it's been in their fluff for yonks that they don't hang around inside the eye a lot of them sit it out in the material universe as terrorist's.
So yeah. I think your 'the warp distorts time immeasurably' argument is weak at best and certainly not enough to dissuade veterans of the craft that a heresy marine is the equal of a modern day affair.
Equal? An average hours heresy vet should by all logic be stronger than a loyalist marine vet, unless chaos marines spend 99% of their time doing nothing.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Equal? An average hours heresy vet should by all logic be stronger than a loyalist marine vet, unless chaos marines spend 99% of their time doing nothing.
ph34r wrote:Equal? An average hours heresy vet should by all logic be stronger than a loyalist marine vet, unless chaos marines spend 99% of their time doing nothing.
Considering they don't have the same discipline that loyalist Marines do, for all we know the forces of Chaos spend most of their time on the Chaos couch eating Chaos Funyuns.
Chaos Marines are only how they are (+1 attack for bp/ccw, icons, for worse morale and no ATSKNF) for game balance purposes. They're different enough as is, and giving them blanket stat increases beyond a mark here and there would change the entire dynamic of an army, a dynamic that it has shared with loyalist Space Marines since Rogue Trader. I wouldn't want them to become more "elite" outside of specific builds. They're elite enough as is with cult troops and the price you can pay for marks, and if you made the base Marines better, you'd need to make the cult troops better, at which point the balance of the whole thing is thrown off.
Semper wrote:
How long did the gothic war take (20-100 years)? and the great crusade (2-300 years)? and the other numerous wars? we're already talking the best part of 1000 years for a huge part of the black legion and abaddon OUTSIDE the warp and in addition the likes of Abaddon and Ahriman (who's spent most of the 10,000 years wandering outside the warp) were space marines even before the emperor found the primarchs. So if they are.. no reason to think some, if not many of the other original traitor legions are equally as venerable.
In addition, the bit at the end of The Outcast Dead is relevant to this.
Spoiler:
Just as those ancient marines were significantly tougher and more capable than their Heresy era counterparts, so should the Heresy era veterans be to the more 'modern' Marines. Sure, they have older technology and weapons. It just means they had to fight that much harder to survive, without the comfort of system X, weapon Y or process Z to fall back on.
bhsman wrote:The gladiators things doesn't make any sense to me, though, considering how they are handling Angron in the Heresy series. He didn't really appreciate having to fight for other people's entertainment, so I don't see how his Legion would take it up so casually.
Angron was a massive hypocrite. For all that he claimed to hate the traditions of the gladiators, what was the first thing that he taught his legion? To 'cut the rope', a gladiator tradition. Then he introduced the lobotimisations that were used on gladiators as well. It definitely sounds like something he'd do to me.
Brother SRM wrote:
ph34r wrote:Equal? An average hours heresy vet should by all logic be stronger than a loyalist marine vet, unless chaos marines spend 99% of their time doing nothing.
Considering they don't have the same discipline that loyalist Marines do, for all we know the forces of Chaos spend most of their time on the Chaos couch eating Chaos Funyuns.
Chaos Marines are only how they are (+1 attack for bp/ccw, icons, for worse morale and no ATSKNF) for game balance purposes. They're different enough as is, and giving them blanket stat increases beyond a mark here and there would change the entire dynamic of an army, a dynamic that it has shared with loyalist Space Marines since Rogue Trader. I wouldn't want them to become more "elite" outside of specific builds. They're elite enough as is with cult troops and the price you can pay for marks, and if you made the base Marines better, you'd need to make the cult troops better, at which point the balance of the whole thing is thrown off.
By 'different enough' I assume you mean 'barely different at all'? With the loss of daemons, they've become a generic MEQ, especially since marks can be lost with the death of a single squad member. At the very least, they should have Preferred Enemy against Space Marines, considering that's what they spend the majority of their time in realspace fighting and they'd be trained as such regardless of their age. IMO there should be a normal CSM troops choice and a Veteran CSM choice for the 10000 year old ones.
As for the age and such, Black Crusades aren't the only time that CSMs leave the Eye. Raiding parties, especially those of the Emperor's Children, often leave to hunt for slaves and resources. The fact that they need those means that time is passing reasonably quickly for them, so I'd guess at an average age of 1'000 for them. The ones that left Terra a few years ago from their point of view are the ones that were in the Warp itself, which doesn't obey any of the rules of normal time at all.
What time the CSMs don't spend fightihg someone else is spent fighting each other, as they raid rivals for slaves and resources as well.
Alpharius wrote:What leads you to believe that will happen?
Either way, you'll be able to field 3 squads as Elites though, right?
True, but I've been planning to do a terminator army (or a true scale army) for quite some time, though none of the current options really interest me..and there will probably be some FOC-altering characters in the codex, perhaps something like Draigo and paladins..
I dont think you'll see Chaos Terminators as a troop choice because nothing that Space Marines have or do overlap with Chaos like that. Deathwing Terminators will remain the best terminators and GW will not let their baby be in direct competition with Chaos Terminators.
All i want is for chaos to be competitive, the +1A for a basic troop choice is alright but my aspiring champions cant usually best a sergeant with all of his crazy upgrades. Not to mention does everyone seem to forget the special rules that a SM gets over Chaos? and that they have some free wargear options?
I want some variety of landraiders, like a nurgle-raider that has something nurgly like nurgles rot or something. Thats not so unfair is it ? don't SM have AP3 S6 flamers ? I want some chaotic goodness thats centre around terrifying the enemy just like the nazi's did.
I've already seen the Death Company and cried, its like a plague marine and a khorne berzerker had sex and then someone toss them a jetpack and any wargear option they want.
I would like to see Nurgle Terminators, or Khorne Terminators... but most of all Thousand Son Terminators and Noise Marine Terminators. Terminators with weaponry thats quite deadly at range. Can you imagine seeing a blastmaster, or doom siren on these bastards? be epic as hell.
Nurgle Terminators, or Khorne Terminators... Thousand Son Terminators and Noise Marine Terminators
If GW wants to do marks, that's fine but the codex becomes quickly burdened with redundancy that just isn't necessary and really does nothing to distinguish those sub-factions beyond saying "me too". One reason I actually how the rumors, as stated, come true is that rather than just create 4 terminator squads as the elite versions of the cult units, they basically attempt to give each a squad that is more distinctive and separate from each other. Khorne chrono gladiators (bet people just call them Khorno gladiators)... Slaanesh sonic shield men...Thousand Sons sorcerer coven... and only Plague Marine Terminators.
If the cults ever have their own codices Terminators make sense, but in the context of a single codex, it makes no sense to have 5 units that are as similar when you have 5 more units that are also similar. It also becomes justifiable to say how about havoc and bike squads... and suddenly you have 20 units in the book used similarly and to the mutual exclusion of the other.
Nurgle Terminators, or Khorne Terminators... Thousand Son Terminators and Noise Marine Terminators
If GW wants to do marks, that's fine but the codex becomes quickly burdened with redundancy that just isn't necessary and really does nothing to distinguish those sub-factions beyond saying "me too". One reason I actually how the rumors, as stated, come true is that rather than just create 4 terminator squads as the elite versions of the cult units, they basically attempt to give each a squad that is more distinctive and separate from each other. Khorne chrono gladiators (bet people just call them Khorno gladiators)... Slaanesh sonic shield men...Thousand Sons sorcerer coven... and only Plague Marine Terminators.
If the cults ever have their own codices Terminators make sense, but in the context of a single codex, it makes no sense to have 5 units that are as similar when you have 5 more units that are also similar. It also becomes justifiable to say how about havoc and bike squads... and suddenly you have 20 units in the book used similarly and to the mutual exclusion of the other.
In all honesty I'm expecting it to work like the cult apoc formations.
I.E:If you buy the MoS for a squad, +1I, Fearless, and may replace weapons X, Y, Z for Blastmasters for free, ect.Then you can just list the Chaos Marks as upgrades for CSM, Choosen, Termies, bikes, raptors, ect.
These would then be in addition to your specail units like your chrono-gladiaters, brass knights, ect.
Then other you buy specail charaters to repersent the spefic legions, or (hopefully) can buy "upgrades" for your generic HQ's that then give the army the legion spefic rules. (I don't mind specail charaters. But I don't ALWAYS want to use them yah know? I like the idea of useing your HQ to unlock varient lists, but they need to start includeing generic HQ's into that idea to make is great.)
That and the fact GW has been getting rid of ristrictions in all of thier books, in favour of makeing lists that reward you for playing to certine theams/list builds. In all honesty I enjoy that direction, and I keep haveing a realy hard time seeing the chaos book being used to back pedel that much on the issue.
decoste007xt wrote:I dont think you'll see Chaos Terminators as a troop choice because nothing that Space Marines have or do overlap with Chaos like that. Deathwing Terminators will remain the best terminators and GW will not let their baby be in direct competition with Chaos Terminators.
All i want is for chaos to be competitive, the +1A for a basic troop choice is alright but my aspiring champions cant usually best a sergeant with all of his crazy upgrades. Not to mention does everyone seem to forget the special rules that a SM gets over Chaos? and that they have some free wargear options?
I want some variety of landraiders, like a nurgle-raider that has something nurgly like nurgles rot or something. Thats not so unfair is it ? don't SM have AP3 S6 flamers ? I want some chaotic goodness thats centre around terrifying the enemy just like the nazi's did.
I've already seen the Death Company and cried, its like a plague marine and a khorne berzerker had sex and then someone toss them a jetpack and any wargear option they want.
- Dark Angels are far from GW's "baby" and pretty much everyone has equal or better Terminators than Deathwing. They pay +3 points a model to get Fearless. That is literally all they have aside from being troops that makes them special. Chaos Terminators are cheaper and can take combi plasmas or combi meltas wherever they want, plus marks. Rerollable LD10 is better than Fearless since you won't get no retreat wounds.
- I would really like to see what "crazy upgrades" a Space Marine sergeant gets that an aspiring champion doesn't. They have identical upgrades.
- I agree that Chaos should get some cool new Land Raiders, but I don't know what terror weapons the Nazis used that you're referring to. If it's holocaust related then quit while you're ahead and don't mention it again.
- Death Company are mad expensive, have Rage, and can't hold objectives. Their jump packs are prohibitively expensive. They're not one of the better BA units and honestly, aren't as useful as their points in Berserkers and and Plague Marines.
The Chaos codex has a lot of issues with it, but you managed to touch on none of them.
Brother SRM wrote:
- I agree that Chaos should get some cool new Land Raiders, but I don't know what terror weapons the Nazis used that you're referring to. If it's holocaust related then quit while you're ahead and don't mention it again.
I now want a land raider with a cannon that shoots Chaos propaganda into the enemy.
Nurgle Terminators, or Khorne Terminators... Thousand Son Terminators and Noise Marine Terminators
If GW wants to do marks, that's fine but the codex becomes quickly burdened with redundancy that just isn't necessary and really does nothing to distinguish those sub-factions beyond saying "me too". One reason I actually how the rumors, as stated, come true is that rather than just create 4 terminator squads as the elite versions of the cult units, they basically attempt to give each a squad that is more distinctive and separate from each other. Khorne chrono gladiators (bet people just call them Khorno gladiators)... Slaanesh sonic shield men...Thousand Sons sorcerer coven... and only Plague Marine Terminators.
If the cults ever have their own codices Terminators make sense, but in the context of a single codex, it makes no sense to have 5 units that are as similar when you have 5 more units that are also similar. It also becomes justifiable to say how about havoc and bike squads... and suddenly you have 20 units in the book used similarly and to the mutual exclusion of the other.
Ok...now your talking nonesens...
There always was Cult Termies..., and that was the only way that they was different then SM Termies.
The fact that you can't field any Cult Termies is as Stupid as a whole army of Termies with better Psy powers then Tzeentch affiliated units and Psy weapons over all the place...
Now having new Elite choices besides Termies and Chosen, i'm Ok, but having those units IN place of my Cult Termies?!..., no way in hell i would accepte that.
I am sick & tired to having Troops Zerkers who are Better then my "Veterans" in Termie armours...especially when i'm running an genuinly full World Eaters army.
aka_mythos wrote:If the cults ever have their own codices Terminators make sense, but in the context of a single codex, it makes no sense to have 5 units that are as similar when you have 5 more units that are also similar. It also becomes justifiable to say how about havoc and bike squads... and suddenly you have 20 units in the book used similarly and to the mutual exclusion of the other.
3.5 managed to give us all these different units without dozens of unit entries. No reason why that can't work again.
I think this book is going to have to have a ton of "redundant" entries, because this thread reads like people are expecting this book to be like CSM 3.5. I think it's going to be more like you can make a list containing ONE legion. So you won't mix different legion specific units in an army. I don't even know if the Word Bearers will be able to have marked units.The Black Legion is the only army list that I expect to have different marks, and then they shouldn't be able to have legion specific troops, as World Eater chrono gladiators wouldn't be in the Black Legion, they'd be in the World Eaters. I really think you'll pick your legion, only be able to field one mark per army, and then that will give you your unit selection and restrictions.
I caveat this: This will be a GW product, and common sense in no way, shape or form will be applied.
I do hope however for a good codex, my poor Death Guard are tired of baling out Fzorgle Princes.
They're expanding the current story line greatly, and including much of the inner alliances, distrust and full fledged war within the 9 Traitor Legions. References to the Black Legion and their "arrogance" will help better paint the picture.
Models...interesting that a previous poster (i forget their name) mentioned Cult Terminator Shoulder pads...because i've recently been told that there is a NEWISH sprue to be released along with several boxed sets of Chaos Marines. The ability to build any Legion out of the basic NEW boxed set along with Legion specific sprue sets which are to include just heads and shoulder pads. I also hear that the Terminator version will also be available, but not sure if they'll come with power armor sprues. Suppose to be Direct Only.
I got a lil' more news on the upcoming Monstrous Creature...can have Marks of the Gods, but not all Legions can take it. Apparently Night Lords and the Alpha Legion prefer more subtle and stealthy approaches.
Death Guard gain a new ability (maybe Chosen squads only ?) that allows their poisoned attacks to ignore Armor Saves on a roll of a '6', much similar to Rending without the extra Armor Pen.
Daemonic Mounts actual are useful now! The undivided version will be "worth while" for the non-Marked Legions. Thousand Sons will be VERY pleased with their new found speed.
Iron Warriors become "siege specialists" which equivalents to Tank Hunters and reducing cover saves on enemy units!
Word Bearers are "zealots" and benefit from Chaplains as well as Turn 1 Daemon Summoning. New Daemonancers models are suppose to be SICK looking, but I believe just unit champ upgrades.
Emperor's Children have a haughtiness to them, but prideful, which may give them counter charge (on top of their already higher Initiative). More heavy weapons upgrades per squad, and their Chosen will be...scary fast!
Alpha Legion apparently have the greatest access to Imperial style vehicles, as well as more of an unlimited Force Org slot selections, next to the Black Legion. Much of their Army will be able to upgrade to "Infiltrators".
Black Legion, aka Sons of Horus, aka Luna Wolves are tentatively stubborn, and have greatest selection amongst the units/vehicles. HOWEVER, they're not fully trusted, not sure how this works out in game terms.
World Eaters truly become the combat monsters they're story lined to be. Marked Dreads, and Daemon Engines will be a prime staple in most Armies...
Rick Blaine wrote:
Models...interesting that a previous poster (i forget their name) mentioned Cult Terminator Shoulder pads...because i've recently been told that there is a NEWISH sprue to be released along with several boxed sets of Chaos Marines. The ability to build any Legion out of the basic NEW boxed set along with Legion specific sprue sets which are to include just heads and shoulder pads. I also hear that the Terminator version will also be available, but not sure if they'll come with power armor sprues. Suppose to be Direct Only.
This makes little sense and goes completely against the trend of the last few years. It does get suggested often enough on the forums by people making uneducated guesses, though.
theDarkGeneral wrote:Rick Blaine: Yeah, i've read that here and there over the past 10+ years...and as mentioned by another member there were sighting of Termie Shoulder pad sprues a few years back at Games Day. I'm not stating this rumor as a guess, just what i've heard. But again, when a large project like this is undertaken, i'm sure it starts with 1,000+ ideas and filters down to 64. Either way, i't wouldn't affect me, or my Legion.
Any idea of a release window? Months? A year? Longer?
Originally it was slated for March release, which made me quite ecstatic cuz that's my BDay month! However, I could see it getting pushed back a few more months depending how the Holiday season goes for GW.
So Alpha Legion can almost choose whatever they like and still make a fluffy list? I like the sound of that.
I wonder if they'll be able to take infiltrating Havocs like in the 3.5 book
Think you've got the idea...imagine more vehicles being able to infiltrate as well????
Let me get this strait. 6th ed is going to see a reduction in cover saves across the board and Iron Warriors get to reduce cover saves some more? Oh how my SM tower of power friend is going to cry when his 3 autocannon dreads only get a 5+ cover save instead of his 3+ he gets now with his master of the forge.
It'll also affect things like the Grey Knights 2+ Cover Save silliness, models that have already been forced to ground, etc. Imagine Relentless Havocs and/or Chosen???
have you heard anything on the war gear load outs/options for any of the cult troops. are we looking at pretty much the same deal as we have now or will there be a few more options like the bezerkers with bolters. mainly will my plague marines get their plague knives back?
i believe the Plague Knives that you mention will be the new poisoned attacks, wounding on a 4+ regardless of toughness, rolls of a '6' ignore Armor Saves. Who gets them? Prob unit champs, and perhaps Chosen/Possessed.
See also new thread about possible 30k summer campaign.
My point was more that IF they want to do Cult terminators, it should be a matter of using the “Marks” or a similar system of upgrades to do so rather than creating distinct units for
Nurgle Terminators, or Khorne Terminators... Thousand Son Terminators and Noise Marine Terminators
That is to say I prefer it to work similar to
HBMC wrote: 3.5
kinda…
like the cult apoc formations.
but that I think the introduction of new units should only further emphasize distinctions than to just make them more similar to each other.
Slayer le boucher wrote:
I am sick & tired to having Troops Zerkers who are Better then my "Veterans" in Termie armours...especially when i'm running an genuinly full World Eaters army.
With the exception of World Eaters, I don’t think that Berzerkers should be troops since no one else is immediately indoctrinated as a Berzerker. They should generally be on par to veterans and really should be considered Elites, unless the entire army is meant to be regarded as an elite army. I think it speaks more to the deficiencies of how GW wrote chaos veteran chosen than to how Berzerkers are written.
but that I think the introduction of new units should only further emphasize distinctions than to just make them more similar to each other.
I think you miss understand.
The apoc formations I'm talking about is bassicly you buy the generic CSM units, but then apply a list of bonoes to them turning them into the cult unit in question.
Bassicly in the wargear section they could list the effects a mark gives, and the new options the Mark gives. Then list the marks in the unit entries for X points.
This is just speculation, but I'm assuming if they are going to include cult units this is how they will do it, and we will get these in addition to these new rumoured units. (Witch of course would not be able to buy a mark, since they would always be dedicated to their chosen god.)
I can't see them making 5 versions of every unit.... Thier is just no way to make them that much different. No matter what they did, it would be a gak ton of redundant units.Things like the Chrono gladiators and Brass Knights sound more like new units in addition to something like the above mechanic.
O____o
It would also explain the rumours on the Nurgle Termies. (This Plague thrower could be a Nurgle marked weapon that replaces Heavy Flamers for example.)
The 3.5 'dex gave players ample ways to represent each of the Legions without the need for endless and redundant unit entries. It did so via Marks, some FOC changes and occasionally Vet Skills. The 'balance' of the Codex is largely irrelevant because the replacement for the 3.5 isn't balanced either, it just have different imbalances, something that every Codex has.
So if you were beaten by Prince/9 Oblit/2 Las Plas/3 Defiler/1 Basilsik Iron Warrior armies or Daemonbomb Word Bearer or Emperor's Children armies, then cry some more. It's not like the balance in 40K has suddenly improved since then. Netdecking and badly play-tested choices still exist. Chaos was no exception, because nothing is the exception.
ghost21 wrote:The only thing I've realy heard was a special box of 30k variants.
oh, and a jetbike
30K variants of what? Space Marines? Space Marine vehicles?
1 of each legion
Harry wrote:What I heard was a box with the bits to make different legions.
But I thought this was something to do with Chaos Space Marines and the kit including various heads, spiky bits and icons to make different flavours of Chaos Marines.
It is possible that might be something different and nothing to do with this.
It is also very possible that I am confused about things.
As some of you know I am not really up on the 40K side of things and I tend to hear things by accident and not really a)take much notice. b) know what it means.
BTW I remember to have seen some WIP Chaos icon stuff years ago. Not sure if they are already released (some icons were). Anyone still has the pics?
I also remember a good few years ago after the current 'tragedy' came out at Games Day - I'd noticed on the designer displays a rather odd 3-up 'cast' which had a large number of God-specific components for the Chaos Terminators, including a Doom Siren, Typhus-esque trophy racks and nurglings, Khornate weaponry and Tzeentchian weaponry and heads....
I asked when those were going to be out - they looked at me, quite confused and stated they were already out. They seemed quite taken aback when I pointed out that this was not the case...
Makes me wonder if we're going to see this finally make an appearance...
DarkStarSabre wrote:I also remember a good few years ago after the current 'tragedy' came out at Games Day - I'd noticed on the designer displays a rather odd 3-up 'cast' which had a large number of God-specific components for the Chaos Terminators, including a Doom Siren, Typhus-esque trophy racks and nurglings, Khornate weaponry and Tzeentchian weaponry and heads.....
Yep, good call---I recall that photo as well. I would assume once you eliminated home brew legions and people purchasing marine parts for other purposes--if you compare straight Vanilla Marine players v. Chaos Marine players--the Chaos players would be more numerous, so I'm kind of shocked it took them this long to capture those sales.
Dark Angels are far from GW's "baby" and pretty much everyone has equal or better Terminators than Deathwing. They pay +3 points a model to get Fearless. That is literally all they have aside from being troops that makes them special. Chaos Terminators are cheaper and can take combi plasmas or combi meltas wherever they want, plus marks. Rerollable LD10 is better than Fearless since you won't get no retreat wounds.
Oh I'm sorry, thunderfury hammers, stormshields, feel no pain, a chapter banner for +1A and Cyclone missle launchers? Being able to make a Deathwing Assault ? and chucking Belial in there to make Terminators as troop choices.
- I would really like to see what "crazy upgrades" a Space Marine sergeant gets that an aspiring champion doesn't. They have identical upgrades.
Your right on that one, i was thinking of one of the veteran sergeant my bad, but I guess the whole replacing Combat Tactics for a HQ's ability can be a bit hefty (whatever HQ makes almost all your weapons twin-linked)
- I agree that Chaos should get some cool new Land Raiders, but I don't know what terror weapons the Nazis used that you're referring to. If it's holocaust related then quit while you're ahead and don't mention it again.
I was merely saying that chaos should have an intimidation factor, not a silly " oh no roll your d6 and see if you blow your own units off the board or suffer a wound!" Yeah thats not intimidating it just makes your opponents laugh. Much like the Death Korps Krieg which i find those bastards monsters
-
Death Company are mad expensive, have Rage, and can't hold objectives. Their jump packs are prohibitively expensive. They're not one of the better BA units and honestly, aren't as useful as their points in Berserkers and and Plague Marines.
The Death company doesn't need to hold an objective when they destroy whatever is around it, with FNP, Furious Charge, and the ability to take Lemartes as a Special Character which grants him and his squad Liturgies of Blood.... Whats this? warptime for the entire squad if we charge? are you kidding me?? lol 4A's on the charge and their rerolling all failed hits and wounds (usually hitting on 3's anyhow). The wargear options are crazy, Ifernus Pistols, a Thunderhammer, etc. I rarely see Blood Angels lose a match.
The Chaos codex has a lot of issues with it, but you managed to touch on none of them.
I'm pretty sure I did, but I'll just throw out 3 of the flavourful HQ's we have to pick from are grossly expensive for only 1 being an Eternal Warrior, the Demon Prince is an auto-pick hands down so what kind of diversity does that give chaos?
Also the changes to Greater and Lesser Demons pretty much cripples them. Going from 16Pt Khorne demons w/ WS5, Furious Charge and Powerswords to 13pt Lesser Demons that are WS4, no FC and just regular attacks their often just punching bags.
So here is a question (I have only ever worked with the current codex)
If I pick one god for my army do I have to stick all icon upgrades to that one god or can I have multiple gods (like the current one)
For an example I use a daemon prince With MoN but also I give my troops IoT in the current one, would I have to stick with one god or can I still do something like this when the new codex comes out?
Erazmus_M_Wattle wrote:Well all I can say is I heard this from one of my contacts at h.q. It was early days but he'd heard that they were doing a new Chaos Marine plastic kit that had blank pads with little slots in them in which legion icons would be glued. it's not exactly the same information to be fair but it's close.
I could see the plastics being black legion with blisters of finecast shoulder pads for the other legions. It was how alternative chapters/legions were represented in the past. The one thing that lends it credence is the fact that they could possibly put ninety pads in a box, i.e. ten for each legion. That'd be a bit excessive.
happygolucky wrote:So here is a question (I have only ever worked with the current codex)
If I pick one god for my army do I have to stick all icon upgrades to that one god or can I have multiple gods (like the current one)
For an example I use a daemon prince With MoN but also I give my troops IoT in the current one, would I have to stick with one god or can I still do something like this when the new codex comes out?
The thing with Legions, is that apart for the other 5, the ones affiliated with the Big 4, can't and would not have multiple Marks or Gods affiliated units.
World Eaters are Khorne only, while Death Guards are Nurgle Only, Thousand Sons are Tzeentch only and then Emperor's Childrens Slaanesh only.
Black Legion can mix a bit of everything, while the other 4 lasts are mostly Universal Chaos(yeah i still call them Universal Chaos, fuk the Police!!), so they have little to no place for Gods specific units/models.
Well there is always some exceptions like Iron Warriors that like the use of Zerkers for when they make a breach into a defensif position etc.
Word Bearers are more keen to make a heavy use of Deamons units, be it of any Gods.
While Night Lords been a Khorne affiliated army back in Rogue Trader(like the IW), they don't really use Cult troops or units.
Same goes for Alpha Legion.
So if you still want to use a Nurgle Prince, with units of CSM with IoT, no you can't use it in the Legion Dex.
You can still use it with the Renegade version of the Codex though, but personnaly i would call you a Heretic, because Nurgle and Tzeentch are each other Nemesis, and those kind of things shouldn't be allowed,but thats my point of view since i play in a Fluff way since the first 3rd Ed codex.
happygolucky wrote:So here is a question (I have only ever worked with the current codex)
If I pick one god for my army do I have to stick all icon upgrades to that one god or can I have multiple gods (like the current one)
For an example I use a daemon prince With MoN but also I give my troops IoT in the current one, would I have to stick with one god or can I still do something like this when the new codex comes out?
The thing with Legions, is that apart for the other 5, the ones affiliated with the Big 4, can't and would not have multiple Marks or Gods affiliated units.
World Eaters are Khorne only, while Death Guards are Nurgle Only, Thousand Sons are Tzeentch only and then Emperor's Childrens Slaanesh only.
Black Legion can mix a bit of everything, while the other 4 lasts are mostly Universal Chaos(yeah i still call them Universal Chaos, fuk the Police!!), so they have little to no place for Gods specific units/models.
Well there is always some exceptions like Iron Warriors that like the use of Zerkers for when they make a breach into a defensif position etc.
Word Bearers are more keen to make a heavy use of Deamons units, be it of any Gods.
While Night Lords been a Khorne affiliated army back in Rogue Trader(like the IW), they don't really use Cult troops or units.
Same goes for Alpha Legion.
So if you still want to use a Nurgle Prince, with units of CSM with IoT, no you can't use it in the Legion Dex.
You can still use it with the Renegade version of the Codex though, but personnaly i would call you a Heretic, because Nurgle and Tzeentch are each other Nemesis, and those kind of things shouldn't be allowed,but thats my point of view since i play in a Fluff way since the first 3rd Ed codex.
I thought it was khorne and tzeench were nemesis and nurgle and slannesh were nemesis as well?
happygolucky wrote:I thought it was khorne and tzeench were nemesis and nurgle and slannesh were nemesis as well?
No - the pairings have always been Khorne vs. Slaanesh, Nurgle vs. Tzeentch, Malal vs. All The Rest, going back to the original Slaves to Darkness/The Lost and The damned books.
The pairings never made sense. You would think that Slaanesh (perfume) would hate nurgle ( body odour) and that Khorne (fighting) would hate Tzeentch (scheming)
but Khorne hates Slaanesh's foppish manner and Nurgle (who is convined that everything dies) hates Tzeentch's great game that lasts for ever. Mad world.
Why not Khorne vs Tzneetch? makes the most sense to me. Khorne haters Psykers which is why all the Khorne Librarians/Sorcerers were sacrificed and slaughtered. Tzneetch is the embodiment of psykers!
It's all explained in the 3.5 codex. The 4th codex didn't mention any of this I don't think. Because it sucks, fluffwise. And while Khorne's opposite is Slaanesh, he also does not like Tzeentch, because he thinks sorcery is for pansies.
The 3.5 codex changed the foc around depending on what mark the chaos lord had. Any unit that had a mark different from his became elite. The new codex could easily use the same system. What I really want to see come back is favored numbers.
aka_mythos wrote:If the cults ever have their own codices Terminators make sense, but in the context of a single codex, it makes no sense to have 5 units that are as similar when you have 5 more units that are also similar. It also becomes justifiable to say how about havoc and bike squads... and suddenly you have 20 units in the book used similarly and to the mutual exclusion of the other.
3.5 managed to give us all these different units without dozens of unit entries. No reason why that can't work again.
Indeed, the terminator upgrade was just the cult marines upgraded with terminator armor and different options that took an elites slot. I miss the thousand son terminators so bad... 32 points for a 2 wound terminator? Yes please =(. Well, that was 3.5...
Having been a Thousand Son fanboy since the 2nd edition rules, its been disappointing to see how they changed the TS for worse.
I'd like to see 2 wounds on rubric marines again and have the sorcerers either auto cast powers like they used to (or like demons do in a sense) or at least be able to transfer the damage from "perils" onto a nearby rubric marine, its lame to lose a 100 point model to a bad roll in the current edition.
I think 4+ invul, 2 wounds and some kind of protection from the champs/sorcerers from being allocated wounds like every time they are wounded they can transfer the wound onto another rubric model (they are body guards after all). I don't care about the ap3 bolters, they hardly do anything anyway.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The pairings never made sense. You would think that Slaanesh (perfume) would hate nurgle ( body odour) and that Khorne (fighting) would hate Tzeentch (scheming)
They made perfect sense.
Khorne (focus) vs Slaanesh (excess).
Nurgle (stagnation) vs Tzeentch (change).
theDarkgeneral wrote: Models...interesting that a previous poster (i forget their name) mentioned Cult Terminator Shoulder pads...because i've recently been told that there is a NEWISH sprue to be released along with several boxed sets of Chaos Marines. The ability to build any Legion out of the basic NEW boxed set along with Legion specific sprue sets which are to include just heads and shoulder pads. I also hear that the Terminator version will also be available, but not sure if they'll come with power armor sprues. Suppose to be Direct Only.
Hmm. Unless I'm misunderstanding this... I don't like it.. Is this how he's describing it?:
Buy a box of plague marines. Comes with a sprue containing general "nurgly bits" for a unit of plague marines, along with terminator pieces and maybe even a couple dreadnought pieces... everything you need to make a nurgle army really. It also comes with a standard CSM kit (ten models, no extra sprue)....?
This makes the most sense IMO. They kind of did this with the wolf pack kit, although they released the terminators as a separate kit. Wishlisting, of course..
Chaos Marines are only how they are (+1 attack for bp/ccw, icons, for worse morale and no ATSKNF) for game balance purposes..
I call shenanigans, they are the way they are due to poor game design. Having the bp/ccw, a Ld bump of +1 and icons that must be paid for then can be lost does not equal the 3 special rules of the Codex Marines. Space Wolves make this comparison even worse at a point for point level. So either A: codex marines and space wolves are both under costed or B: CSM are over costed by about 2 points per model. One of the main problems with GW codex design is the subjective points system they adopted in mid 3rd.
I look forward to the new codex, cause I am hoping they make running basic CSM's a worthwhile part of the army. I am sick to death of having to run cult troops to be competitive.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The pairings never made sense. You would think that Slaanesh (perfume) would hate nurgle ( body odour) and that Khorne (fighting) would hate Tzeentch (scheming)
but Khorne hates Slaanesh's foppish manner and Nurgle (who is convined that everything dies) hates Tzeentch's great game that lasts for ever. Mad world.
In fact while Khorne hates the use of Magic to KILL, in place of Martial Prowess(be it from HtH or Firepower in the Pre-3rd Ed fluff), the only way that magic should be used in Khorne eyes is by making Weapons and Tools of destruction.
After all Khorne is renowed for being the one with the most Deamon Machines, and Chaotic Equipements and Artefacts.
But what he really Hate is the frivolous and uncarring philosophy of Slaanesh.
While Tzeentch Schemes are merely blown away by Khorne's Wrath and Nurgle's Entropy and Self destruction are of a lesser scale then Khorne Destruction Power.
Khorne isn't the Oldest and most Powerfull of the Fours for no reasons.
While its true that Slaanesh looks at Nurlge with disdain and finds Tzeentch eternal Schemes Boring at best.
Nurgle doesn't understand the way of thinking of the Prince of Excess and Tzeentch find that Slaanesh waste his time by beeing Idle most of the time and enjoying himself in Lust.
All of them finds something bothering or stupid with each other, but not as much as the Hate that Oppose Khorne Vs Slaanesh and Nurgle Vs Tzeentch, because they symbolise each other extremes and opposite.
Very well said! And I agree with the fello above about running regular CSM.
I find to be competitive I need to use Berzerker and Plague Marines, I cant get enough CSM to feel competitive and the Noise Marines are way too pricey.. as well as the TS... I read all about how they were designed before transports were so popular and cover... So why not make the AP3 boltguns ignore cover prehaps? Theres enough SM weaponry floating around that ignores cover, why not magical sorcerer infused bolts !
decoste007xt wrote:Very well said! And I agree with the fello above about running regular CSM.
I find to be competitive I need to use Berzerker and Plague Marines, I cant get enough CSM to feel competitive and the Noise Marines are way too pricey.. as well as the TS... I read all about how they were designed before transports were so popular and cover... So why not make the AP3 boltguns ignore cover prehaps? Theres enough SM weaponry floating around that ignores cover, why not magical sorcerer infused bolts !
Noise Marines can be usefull when used right. The trap most players fall into is the idea you need to buy sonic blasters for them.... Or worst yet. Thinking sonic blasters are even good! The extra bolter shot is not worth the price....
I play:
-x2 Lash Scor
-x2 6 Man Noise Marine Squads, Doom Siren/powerweapon/champ, Blast Master.
-x2 10 man CSM with IoCG.
-x3 3 Oblit squads.
Everything that can take a rhinio, has one with Havoc Launcher.
The two scor go in the noise marien squads. I play the army as a gunline using the oblits to crack tanks, Blast Masters to hit infantry with. Scors bunch guys up for plasma cannons latter in the game for the oblits Doom Siren and melta CSM are for keeping stuff away from the oblits.
It is a surprisingly effective list, and the lash scor hiding in a rhino is surprisingly resilient. (It doesn't has a huge bulls eye like the DP, and is a rhino and squad of marines you have to chew threw to get to him.)
I indeed fall into that trap, I want to play Noise marines so i can fire 2 shots at 24inches while moving or 3 while stationary.. blastmastering and doomsirening. But all those weapons are costly... they might as well make Noise Marines 25pts because thats what they are with a sonic blaster.. i feel they'd excel vs MEQ because that +1 init is very valued at that point... I fight Orkz a lot and i see no value in the noise marines other than their sonic blasts which like stated feels costly.
I would love to see Slaanesh get some decent choices in the legions codex, i hope for the best for all of it. It doens't have to be OP I just want it to be fun... which doesn't seem to always be the consensus :(
Hell I've found playing daemon weapons to be really fun, jaw droppingly fun or hilariously terrible All I can say is the khorne daemon weapon cleared out 10 terminators on turn 2.. and a Librarian... all on his own ~_^
I indeed fall into that trap, I want to play Noise marines so i can fire 2 shots at 24inches while moving or 3 while stationary.. blastmastering and doomsirening. But all those weapons are costly... they might as well make Noise Marines 25pts because thats what they are with a sonic blaster.. i feel they'd excel vs MEQ because that +1 init is very valued at that point... I fight Orkz a lot and i see no value in the noise marines other than their sonic blasts which like stated feels costly.
I would love to see Slaanesh get some decent choices in the legions codex, i hope for the best for all of it. It doens't have to be OP I just want it to be fun... which doesn't seem to always be the consensus :(
Hell I've found playing daemon weapons to be really fun, jaw droppingly fun or hilariously terrible All I can say is the khorne daemon weapon cleared out 10 terminators on turn 2.. and a Librarian... all on his own ~_^
Oh god. Sonic blasters are so over coasted, I'd hate being forced to pay for them....
Noise mariens should just be 20 points with sonic blaster.
@.@
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:The pairings never made sense. You would think that Slaanesh (perfume) would hate nurgle ( body odour) and that Khorne (fighting) would hate Tzeentch (scheming)
They made perfect sense.
Khorne (focus) vs Slaanesh (excess).
Nurgle (stagnation) vs Tzeentch (change).
This. I can't believe people don't know this (/sarcasm) GW hasn't arbitrarily changed the fluff for no good reason at all (/sarcasm). GW didn't turn this game into Space Marines in different colors, just more kewlnes (/sarcasm)!
decoste007xt wrote:Very well said! And I agree with the fello above about running regular CSM.
I find to be competitive I need to use Berzerker and Plague Marines, I cant get enough CSM to feel competitive and the Noise Marines are way too pricey.. as well as the TS... I read all about how they were designed before transports were so popular and cover... So why not make the AP3 boltguns ignore cover prehaps? Theres enough SM weaponry floating around that ignores cover, why not magical sorcerer infused bolts !
By the Dark gods beard, i hope not...
Or maybe give them the choice between Anti cover AP4 rounds or AP3 rounds, but no AP3 No cover...
I hate what the game as turned into..., ine one codex a single model as an invulnerable save of 3+ for only a whole turn, because of a special circumstance, and the Codex that comes after a whole unit can have 3+ Inuvl saves..., and the Codex after a whole unit AND the HQ choices and so on and so on...
Until the moment where we get whole Army's of Invul 3+ Saves with Power weapons of Doom that makes 6D6 wounds per models and that can fly around...
Its not really the Weapon escalating who has nothing to envy the Weapons programmes from the Cold War, but the fact that each Codex one after another is just more OP then the previous...
Until we reach the point where like between the 2nd and 3rd Ed we all get the bad side of the Nerf bat in the face, and that GW once again try's to make a new Codex model like what we had with the DA and CSM dex...
So please people, stop asking for those kind of stuff..., the balance of the game is allready bad as it is, without giving any bright ideas like that...
Yes i want a CSM book that strikes fear into the heart of my ennemy's, but not for the simple sake to make my opponent cry and that he would never play with me again...
I indeed fall into that trap, I want to play Noise marines so i can fire 2 shots at 24inches while moving or 3 while stationary.. blastmastering and doomsirening. But all those weapons are costly... they might as well make Noise Marines 25pts because thats what they are with a sonic blaster.. i feel they'd excel vs MEQ because that +1 init is very valued at that point... I fight Orkz a lot and i see no value in the noise marines other than their sonic blasts which like stated feels costly.
I would love to see Slaanesh get some decent choices in the legions codex, i hope for the best for all of it. It doens't have to be OP I just want it to be fun... which doesn't seem to always be the consensus :(
Hell I've found playing daemon weapons to be really fun, jaw droppingly fun or hilariously terrible All I can say is the khorne daemon weapon cleared out 10 terminators on turn 2.. and a Librarian... all on his own ~_^
Oh god. Sonic blasters are so over coasted, I'd hate being forced to pay for them....
Noise mariens should just be 20 points with sonic blaster.
@.@
If you really want to piss people off give noise marines back their original rule of exploding a psychers head within 24" on a 4+. I would love to see the bitching born of this.
Being thinking on how to make a differenciation Between CSM and SM rule wise, SM got ATSKNF, while its true we got+1 CD, SM are quite resilient, you can't Outrun them and crush them in a Sweeping Advance, yes they do however take extra wounds, but that doesn't garantue anything much.
It's obvious thats Chaos shouldn't have ATSKNF,but maybe give Chaos something more aggresive like Prefered Ennemy [Imperial] OR/AND the ability that if they are destroyed in a ennemy Sweeping Advance, the ennemy unit must do 1D3(or a mere 1 per model) Saves Per models in the CSM unit.
It would represent the fact that even on the brink of death,CSM are still dangerous and still fight in their dying breath.
Or, you know, Stubborn. To represent that Tenacity and refusal to just give up.
The unit could still be broken and still wiped out with sweeping advances but it would be that much harder to break, rather than the current sorry situation where your units are either Fearless Cult troops or get steamrolled by BA/GK/SW with minimal effort.
ASTKNF and Combat Tactics is quite a disgusting combination because being able to break off, reform and assault again in the next turn makes even a Tactical squad a nasty little prospect nevermind Assault Squads or...Terminators.
Yep, when used properly ATSKNF and Combat Tactics can be really quite nasty.
I agree that Fearless really does have a sting in it's tail, Stubborn would make much more sense, but I would rather just see a brand new rule created for Legionnaires in the same vain as ATSKNF.
I would also like to reiterate that the new Codex is Chaos Legions, not Chaos Space marines. There is a significant difference.
I think he is hinting at earlier rumors that GW has plans on splitting the forces of chaos once again. One Codex will be Legions and the second will be CSM/Renegades.
Wyomingfox is correct, from my understanding the Legions Codex will be seperate from the CSM one.
Chaos Legionnaires and Chaos Space Marines are significantly different.
It would be like saying Grey Knights and Ultramarines are the same, which they are not.
The new Codex will focus on the Legions that fled to the Eye of Terror post Heresy.
The Chaos Space Marine Codex was supposed to represent Marines who have turned traitor since the Heresy, or Renegades thrown out of their Chapter / Legion.
Chaos Legionnaires are a different kettle of fish entirely, and their rules will reflect this. The Space marines we know of in the 41st Millennium are not a patch on their brothers 10,000 years before.
The Legions Codex will focus on the Legions and Legionnaires who famously turned Traitor, so expect them to be quite different from your current CSMs
I'm just personally expecting them to be...well...competitive. To be perfectly frank the current mess is just that, a mess. They harped on how the focus was the more recent Renegades (bad move number one) and then proceeded to fill the codex with units that had all the old archaic equipment (Reaper autocannons, combi weapons, no more 'modern' equipment...) and lacked any elements that would suggest it to be more recent....
I think it will be interesting to see where GW deals chooses to keep the different Chaos special characters. While the vast majority of the Chaos characters are Legion era, Chaos marines, some also have a Renegade status amongst their former legion.... though they still represent the charcterization of that legion. More than other codices the Chaos codex has carried a substantial through the last few editions. GW may use the split between Renegade and Legion as a way of shedding one or two to make room for new ones. Fabius Bile being a bit more of a loner type is a good example of that; where in a book full of elite marines, his impact is less substantial than bringing chaos veteran quality troops into an army of Traitor guard and generally more basic chaos marines. The two codex split is also a good opportunity to bring back Cypher in the Renegade codex.
Okay, true they have stagnated, but do you think they sit about drinking beer and catching rays?
No, they constantly fight, so I think they are sharp if not sharper than most Marines
What a load of horse manure. If this is an example of logic used by the chaos codex writers then the GK codex will bee a work of genius in comparison.
Because we all know loyalist marines just sit down having drinks on the beach.
It´s as slowed as claiming that "mine" half of the ork population are so much sharper and better then your orks because my orks fight all the time and um, your half og the ork population dont like fighting nearly as much so they are whimps.
Okay, true they have stagnated, but do you think they sit about drinking beer and catching rays?
No, they constantly fight, so I think they are sharp if not sharper than most Marines
What a load of horse manure. If this is an example of logic used by the chaos codex writers then the GK codex will bee a work of genius in comparison.
Because we all know loyalist marines just sit down having drinks on the beach.
It´s as slowed as claiming that "mine" half of the ork population are so much sharper and better then your orks because my orks fight all the time and um, your half og the ork population dont like fighting nearly as much so they are whimps.
I think the question should be what to loyalists do vs. Chaos dureing thier "down time"?
-Loyalists pray to the emperor and train for battle.
-CSM worship and pray to the dark gods, Squabble among them selves, try to work their way up the ranks/gain the favour of their deities, ect
I don't think their would be that much difference between a Basic CSM and your average Tac Squad loyalist. (At-least on the table top.) But I suspect their elites, HQ's, ect would be made of harder stuff then thier loyalist counter part.
1)They had to kill the guy who had the position before them.
2)That guy was probably demoniacally gifted.
3)They would of gotten their own demonic gifts for achieving such a feet.
4)They now have to defend that position from would-be up-starts.
It's like that old fluff bit about Chaos Terminater armour. Loyalists are given terminator armour for their great achievements and earning the respect of the chapter. If your a CSM terminator, you earned your armour by killing the last guy who wore it. (And probably well he was wearing it to boot!)
At least that is how I understand the fluff, If someone wants to correct me.
It's like that old fluff bit about Chaos Terminater armour. Loyalists are given terminator armour for their great achievements and earning the respect of the chapter. If your a CSM terminator, you earned your armour by killing the last guy who wore it. (And probably well he was wearing it to boot!)
At least that is how I understand the fluff, If someone wants to correct me.
I agree but since nowhere on the tabletop are the drawbacks of killing your way up and consequently defending your position from backstabbing, represented then nowhere should the advantages of being a little more tougher be represented either.
You see while the loyal marine can cover in the ditch with his buddies each one covering anothers back and teamworking away to victory the chaos marine has to constantly watch his back in the same ditch or else his buddy will kill him any time to get to take over his armour. Hardly any teamworking or helping each others forward. But as the drawbacks are nowhere to be seen so shouldnt the advantages.
Plus while the chaos marines have deamonic gifts to compensate for lousier tech the loyalists have better equipment to counter with.
What I am saying is that there is really no difference in toughness or skill between a loyal or traitor since they both kill things and train during their downtime on a constant basis and they both advance in rank by skill and toughness albeit in different ways.
The notion that traitors have lived for 10k years is laughable as time moves differently in the warp, chaos legions simply do not consist of 10 000 dudes that would make Dante and Logan look like naked babies. They die of due to attrition, accidents, war etc just as much.
Looking at novels that handle this like the Night Lords books the so called 10k year old super veterans really only experienced a hundred years making them the equivalent to first company loyalists in the majority of the cases.
But being this is a new codex everything just MUST be overly exaggerated by the idiots who write the fluff, whooa, tehy are 10k years old and fight constantly so must be bigger and badder then the loyalists who only pray and drink softdrinks all day long.
You´ll see, when the time comes for the SM dex to be remade they will be written about as the most baddest baddasses, just like every alien codex out spells the utter doom of the Imperium.
*sigh*
Sometimes I wonder if they really write the codex fluff for 10 year olds.
Ah yes, ridiculous hyperbole about fluff you haven't seen yet! That's one of my favorite inexplicable posting habits.
If it comes out and the fluff is horrible, go ahead. Until then, there's not much to say about it. Most fluff is pretty sane for 40k, which is already a ridiculous cartoon.
Pyriel- wrote:It´s as slowed as claiming that "mine" half of the ork population are so much sharper and better then your orks because my orks fight all the time and um, your half og the ork population dont like fighting nearly as much so they are whimps.
If you had ork veterans that were constantly fighting for 10,000 years you had better believe that they would be so much sharper and better. Your logic is tragic.
They spend every moment that isn't consumed by fighting quarreling and posturing themselves amongst each other, zealously competing for the acknowledgment of their gods. I seriously doubt that space marines do anything NEARLY as intense as what CSM do on a regular basis. Not to mention they general desensitization that Legionairres go through after thousands of years in combat. Sights that would drive a loyalist to madness don't even stir Chaos Marines. They are hard, powerful creatures.. unfaltering in their devotion to their legion and Dieties, more so than Loyalists to the emperor.
Legionaires are without a doubt stronger, smarter and harder than loyalists.
Legionaires are without a doubt stronger, smarter and harder than loyalists.
Er no, that is actually mostly in doubt, really...
Or at the very least, certainly not set in stone!
Bah! I'm a chaos fanboy, I believe what I want to.
Personally, I don't care if the rules represent my ideas of Chaos Marines or not. I'm perfectly happy with the current stat-line, and to represent all kinds of different CSM, I think that stat line does an alright job. Certainly, not every chaos marine is a hulking, genocidal monster.
There are several examples in the few books I've read of Chaos Marines of non-descript variety going toe to toe with space marine captains and other characters of distinguishable variety though. The Night Lords fighting the ultramarines in the Uriel Ventris Pilot-book comes to mind. The only reason Uriel lives through a fight with some raptors is because he steals one of their plasma pistols.
They spend every moment that isn't consumed by fighting quarreling and posturing themselves amongst each other, zealously competing for the acknowledgment of their gods. I seriously doubt that space marines do anything NEARLY as intense as what CSM do on a regular basis. Not to mention they general desensitization that Legionairres go through after thousands of years in combat. Sights that would drive a loyalist to madness don't even stir Chaos Marines. They are hard, powerful creatures.. unfaltering in their devotion to their legion and Dieties, more so than Loyalists to the emperor.
Legionaires are without a doubt stronger, smarter and harder than loyalists.
So then let's just make them 'movie marines' already because that seems to be what some people here are suggesting they should be...
It's called game balance! (let's be thankfull we have the slight bit that we do!) Marines are under powered conpared to what they should be, as are chaos marines. I would *never* want to see the rules mimic the backround as games would just be silly.
Hell, if the rules reflected the background, you'd need about 100 guardsmen to kill maybe 5-10 marines, and eldar would be almost impossible to hit because they're crazy elf-ninjas, while orks would continue to fight for a turn or two after you kill them!
I really don't want to see Chaos Legions get the levels of obnoxious stupidity that GK's got. Rather, I'd like to see a book that's somewhere between the levels of codex marines & space wolves.
I'm honestly hoping that GW can do for 40k in 6th what they've started doing to fantasy in 8th; reasonable and reletively balanced books that have BOTH decent internal AND external balance! (no more OTT 'auto must-haves' and boring spamy gak please!)
Just so you know, I really enjoy reading this thread. It has been very educational for me concerning the Chaos background.
I do strongly agree that Chaos should be made a much bigger threat to the imperium than it currenly is fluff wise, instead of them just being bulky space pirates.
IMHO the Chaos marines dedicating themselves to the Chaos gods to gain benefits and power should be represented properly in the coming Chaos Legions book.
I think stat wise it is represented acceptably in the current Chaos book, but the basic Chaos marines themselves should have a more fanatical feel to them. Perhaps something like army-wise Fearless, or a less powerful special rule could do the trick, but currently, I don't like them being scared easier than loyalists (of course with the exception of cult troops).
I don't want Chaos legions to be as good as the current Grey Knights, but I certainly want them to have options, like cult terminators, that would be a lot more powerful individually than the loyalist counterparts (of course with an increase in points).
I agree that the CSM stat line is fine as it is, what they need is their own army wide special rule for the non cult marines.
My group made up a special rule for CSM's called Fear is for the Weak: it gives the basic non cult units Stubborn and the ability to regroup below below half strength.
Works well for us, I hope GW does something to make them better, or we will keep using our own little house rule.
Pyriel- wrote:
Plus while the chaos marines have deamonic gifts to compensate for lousier tech the loyalists have better equipment to counter with.
Yeah...like the AdMec/TechMarines are any brighter then their Chaos counterparts...
The guys just casually "forgot" or "loose" a technology...,they are unable to make new or hardly maintain what they allready have...
In regards CSM can do new things, because there isn't any of the Deus Mec BS to forbide them to do so...
So yeah...CSM or Legionaires are better then regular Imperial goons...
BDJV wrote:I agree that the CSM stat line is fine as it is, what they need is their own army wide special rule for the non cult marines.
My group made up a special rule for CSM's called Fear is for the Weak: it gives the basic non cult units Stubborn and the ability to regroup below below half strength.
Works well for us, I hope GW does something to make them better, or we will keep using our own little house rule.
Actually thats pretty good!
Experiment 626 wrote:
It's called game balance! (let's be thankfull we have the slight bit that we do!)
Yeah...*looks at the GK, BA and Necron dexes...*...riiiiiight....
Legionaires are without a doubt stronger, smarter and harder than loyalists.
Wow, your logic is amazing, I am so convinced.
If you had ork veterans that were constantly fighting for 10,000 years you had better believe that they would be so much sharper and better. Your logic is tragic.
Ah, the famous flame baiter trying to do it again.
Common you can do better then that. lol ...or maybe not.
Ok, from a fluff background there are lots of reasons why Legionnaires would be quite a lot harder than 40K Space Marines, or current Chaos Space Marines.
The Legionnaires who fled to the Eye of Terror post Heresy were mostly first and second generation post-humans, created directly from their Primarch's Gene Seed 10,000 years before any other type of Marine.
Their gene seed therefore would have been much purer and wouldn't have degraded in the same way that modern (40K) Marines Gene Seed has.
The majority of 40K marines have lost the use of at least one of their gene seed impants.
For example very few Marines can still use the Betcher's Gland.
Also 10,000 years of harvesting and reusing Gene Seed has meant that in many cases the Gene Seed has degraded.
Chaos Space Marines are made up of loyalist Marines turned traitor, or Chaos Marines created using captured loyalist Gene Seed (Storm of Iron).
However Legionnaires are actually the original traitors from the Heresy, a completely different prospect to modern day Chaos Marines.
These guys fled to the Eye 10,000 years ago, but in their terms have only been there a hundred or so years, meaning their gene seed is that much more potent, albeit corrupted by the warp.
All of the Horus Heresy novels allude to the fact that Heresy era Marines were faster, stronger and more potent than moden day Marines.
I'm not saying they will have different stat lines, and hate to keep using Grey Knights as an example but a stat line doesn't have to be drastically changed to make something more potent. Just look at Space Wolves or Grey Knights.
My understanding is that Chaos Legionnaires will be as distinct from the Chaos Marines in the CSM Codex as Grey Knights, Space Wolves and Vanilla Marines are.
All of the Horus Heresy novels allude to the fact that Heresy era Marines were faster, stronger and more potent than moden day Marines.
Do they really? I'm not so sure about that...
StraightSilver wrote:
My understanding is that Chaos Legionnaires will be as distinct from the Chaos Marines in the CSM Codex as Grey Knights, Space Wolves and Vanilla Marines are.
StraightSilver wrote:Ok, from a fluff background there are lots of reasons why Legionnaires would be quite a lot harder than 40K Space Marines, or current Chaos Space Marines.
The Legionnaires who fled to the Eye of Terror post Heresy were mostly first and second generation post-humans, created directly from their Primarch's Gene Seed 10,000 years before any other type of Marine.
Their gene seed therefore would have been much purer and wouldn't have degraded in the same way that modern (40K) Marines Gene Seed has.
The majority of 40K marines have lost the use of at least one of their gene seed impants.
For example very few Marines can still use the Betcher's Gland.
ZOMG!! I hear that Chaos Marines also have 12" long progenoid glands and shoot fireballs from their arse! (ok... that last one might actually be true for slaneesh sorcerers and not just a Braveheart joke). Lets not go overboard in glorifying HH marines compared to current loyalists. For the record, most loyalist marines are from Ultramarine stock and Rowboat's boys don't have any problems with Betcher's Glands. Dorn's boys may have that problem but it certainly didn't carry over to anything close (1 - very few) % of current marines.
Legion marines may have closer to factory standard geneseed (assuming it hasn't been corrupted by the warp which is a pretty big assumption) but their true benefit should lie in their AVERAGE higher level of skill and customization without the Codex Astartes limiting their choices. While only 1 in 10 loyalist marine companies (the 1st) have an average of two or three centuries of combat experience, every legion company that is still fully composed of HH marines should have that. While their equipment may be in disrepair and the company understrength, they should also have the greater arsenals typical of HH marine forces as well as the customization inherent to having a looser command structure as raiders. I think the original 3rd edition rules did it best in that regard and would be a good starting point for legion marines in the next one. Give them 2 specials or 1 special + 1 heavy right off the bat at 5 instead of reserving something until unit size 10... understrength squads still need to cover the same basic combat tactics and roles as full strength ones. Also, the old benefit of giving them a single "veteran" ability (now called a USR) would be a cool and fluffy upgrade. Combined with the ability to take various marks of chaos, this would give you the variety that people seem to be craving as well as powerful combos that succeed at the role you choose for them. Lol, legionairres don't need to have Abaddon statlines and abilities to make them special.
StraightSilver wrote:Ok, from a fluff background there are lots of reasons why Legionnaires would be quite a lot harder than 40K Space Marines, or current Chaos Space Marines.
The Legionnaires who fled to the Eye of Terror post Heresy were mostly first and second generation post-humans, created directly from their Primarch's Gene Seed 10,000 years before any other type of Marine.
Their gene seed therefore would have been much purer and wouldn't have degraded in the same way that modern (40K) Marines Gene Seed has.
The majority of 40K marines have lost the use of at least one of their gene seed impants.
For example very few Marines can still use the Betcher's Gland.
ZOMG!! I hear that Chaos Marines also have 12" long progenoid glands and shoot fireballs from their arse! (ok... that last one might actually be true for slaneesh sorcerers and not just a Braveheart joke). Lets not go overboard in glorifying HH marines compared to current loyalists. For the record, most loyalist marines are from Ultramarine stock and Rowboat's boys don't have any problems with Betcher's Glands. Dorn's boys may have that problem but it certainly didn't carry over to anything close (1 - very few) % of current marines.
The entirety of the Black Templar chapter a small percent is it?
I'd be interested to see if/how you can mix legions. If it's not possible it'd be very disappointing, perhaps Iron Warriors/World Eaters because of all the chaos gods, Iron Warriors have a greater tendancy to fall to khorne than any other deity (as per old fluff). The ability to form the old alliances would be awesome (like the Isstvan Drop Site Massacre force etc).
Actually due to attrition and lack of resupply most Chaos marines spend the majority of their time slaughtering defenseless civilians and (sometimes) PDF until the imperial space marines show up and chase them away. The inevitable degredation in skills and equipment that results will be reflected on the tabletop by their 4+ save, WS 3 and Ld 7. They will also cost 20 pts each to reflect their dwindling numbers.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Actually due to attrition and lack of resupply most Chaos marines spend the majority of their time slaughtering defenseless civilians and (sometimes) PDF until the imperial space marines show up and chase them away. The inevitable degredation in skills and equipment that results will be reflected on the tabletop by their 4+ save, WS 3 and Ld 7. They will also cost 20 pts each to reflect their dwindling numbers.
Whoah! Get outta here with your realistic rules! We want uber chaos marines with lotta spiky bitz.
It's like that old fluff bit about Chaos Terminater armour. Loyalists are given terminator armour for their great achievements and earning the respect of the chapter. If your a CSM terminator, you earned your armour by killing the last guy who wore it. (And probably well he was wearing it to boot!)
At least that is how I understand the fluff, If someone wants to correct me.
I agree but since nowhere on the tabletop are the drawbacks of killing your way up and consequently defending your position from backstabbing, represented then nowhere should the advantages of being a little more tougher be represented either.
You see while the loyal marine can cover in the ditch with his buddies each one covering anothers back and teamworking away to victory the chaos marine has to constantly watch his back in the same ditch or else his buddy will kill him any time to get to take over his armour. Hardly any teamworking or helping each others forward. But as the drawbacks are nowhere to be seen so shouldnt the advantages.
Well. Sept. you know. Loyalists DO have rules that represent their Team Work and "covering anothers back". It's called Combat Tactics and They Shall Know no Fear.
If their really isn't any difference between a CSM and loyalist then why don't I get thows rules?
The point I was trying to get at is that the CSM should get SOMETHING alittle extra to represent their individual martial prowess they need to stay alive. The same way Loyalists have thows rules that represent their team work and brotherhood. Right now CSM get NOTHING, and are apparently not nearly as skilled as thier loyalist counter-parts.
This bonus dosen't need to be a stat-line boost. Sometimes appropriate special rules are a better choice then just out right buffing the statline. But CSM should at-least get SOMETHING.
Realistic rules have no place in 40k as every single weapon would need to be overhauled and recosted. The average SM and CSM would need to have their points increased far beyond 20pts (if we’re to emphasise both rarity and their elite level), with GK probably having their point cost doubled. Special characters would probably have to be doubled as well.
Moral of the story: realistic rules don’t exist in 40k (and to a lesser extent, fluffy rules as well).
Noisy_Marine wrote:I'm wondering if you'll be able to mix World Eaters and Emperor's Children. Ya know ... just because ...
Oh by Khorne's blood chaked beard i hope not...
It's allready hard for me, when in a tournament i see a CSM player with 2 Lash Princes/Lords AND Zerkers squads in the same army...
I allready want to roundhouse kick his ass into Orbit, so if it was one of the new things of the new Dex...i think i would chop a lot of heads...
In all honesty I would rather see something half way between what we have now, and 3.5.
Like. You can take a Slaanesh prince and Zerker's in the same list. But reward players for playing "fluffy lists" or taking "fluffy options". (Encourage people to play fluffy Emperor's children or fluff World Eaters for example.)
warboss wrote: For the record, most loyalist marines are from Ultramarine stock and Rowboat's boys don't have any problems with Betcher's Glands. Dorn's boys may have that problem but it certainly didn't carry over to anything close (1 - very few) % of current marines.
The entirety of the Black Templar chapter a small percent is it?
Mathematically, absolutely. 1000 chapters x 1000 marines/chapter = 1,000,000 marines according to the simplified fluff. The BTs make up less than one tenth of one percent even at their over-codex size. Add in the rest of Dorn's boys and you've still got minority of marines.
Ok, from a fluff background there are lots of reasons why Legionnaires would be quite a lot harder than 40K Space Marines, or current Chaos Space Marines.
The Legionnaires who fled to the Eye of Terror post Heresy were mostly first and second generation post-humans, created directly from their Primarch's Gene Seed 10,000 years before any other type of Marine.
Their gene seed therefore would have been much purer and wouldn't have degraded in the same way that modern (40K) Marines Gene Seed has.
The majority of 40K marines have lost the use of at least one of their gene seed impants.
For example very few Marines can still use the Betcher's Gland.
Nope, the marines in the eye have severe problems with mutation and geneseed degrading due to you know, chaos warping things. Thus all the desperate hunting for purer loyalist geneseed banks.
Well. Sept. you know. Loyalists DO have rules that represent their Team Work and "covering anothers back". It's called Combat Tactics and They Shall Know no Fear.
If their really isn't any difference between a CSM and loyalist then why don't I get thows rules?
The point I was trying to get at is that the CSM should get SOMETHING alittle extra to represent their individual martial prowess they need to stay alive. The same way Loyalists have thows rules that represent their team work and brotherhood. Right now CSM get NOTHING, and are apparently not nearly as skilled as thier loyalist counter-parts.
What are you talking about? Course they do, first of all they get more attacks, two assault weapons and they get to take marks giving them inv saves, +1T etc etc.
I agree however that ATSKNF and combat tactics are representing the loyalists "loyalty" to one another but if you want even better CSM then they are now with the above options then by all means do represent their infighting and backstabbing too.
How about every time the squad takes a Ld the champion takes an armour save to represent someone else trying to put a knife in his back to get that nice wargear and rank you know Should the champion pass his save a random squad member is removed as a casualty to represent a failed attempt at taking command.
Here is your drawback, you cant just eat the cake and still have it.
Actually due to attrition and lack of resupply most Chaos marines spend the majority of their time slaughtering defenseless civilians and (sometimes) PDF until the imperial space marines show up and chase them away. The inevitable degredation in skills and equipment that results will be reflected on the tabletop by their 4+ save, WS 3 and Ld 7. They will also cost 20 pts each to reflect their dwindling numbers.
Hehe, yeah, constantly raiding lone PDF guarded outposts and derelict merchantmen hones their skills so much
While only 1 in 10 loyalist marine companies (the 1st) have an average of two or three centuries of combat experience, every legion company that is still fully composed of HH marines should have that.
Thing is that after X amount of years in the warp (time flows differently there) there are no longer any legions wholly consisting of pre heresy marines. They constantly whittle down by war and attrition and are replaced with more and more "new" recruits. Read Storm of Iron, only a handful were "real" pre heresy badasses, the rest were factory made assembly band traitor marines, just meatgrinded away to see who survived and would earn the real honour of calling themselves (new) Iron Warriors.
Do you believe that IF really 10 000 true years passed for those legion marines and they are still supposed to be made up from originals while loyal SM chapters have no one left due to attrition and war?
Hell no, like ADB wrote, time moves differently over there, the ones who are originals are what the loyalists would call hard bitten old first company veterans, kind of like very experienced wolf guards but most are "new" just like with loyalist chapters.
But I agree, the ones in the army/codex representing the old original marines should get something extra, fortunately there are marks and such that you can give your CSM squads to make them stand above normal squads and if we throw in some extra wargear shenanigans really fun options could be made without things costing 50p per model and GW still selling a volume.
Another section of the CMS are cult squads dedicated to their gods, those do have better stats and abilities to represent that, what more do you want?
Then you have cheaper "normal" or "new" CSM squads that should be just as plain as regular tactical marines with something extra thrown in to offset ATSKNF and combat squads..
No matter what rules should be there to prevent mixing of different cults and thus mangling fluff. I dont ever want to see khorne berzerkers being led by a tzench sorc and his 1ksons bodyguard nor do I want to see plague marines being supported by emp children. That is just taking all the best from each world with no penalties in return.
I never understood why some people keep insisting all chaos marines are 10 000 year old original monsters that shoot death rays from their eyes.
I havent seen any BL novel that supports this nor it is logical.
Pyriel- wrote:
What are you talking about? Course they do, first of all they get more attacks, two assault weapons and they get to take marks giving them inv saves, +1T etc etc.
I agree however that ATSKNF and combat tactics are representing the loyalists "loyalty" to one another but if you want even better CSM then they are now with the above options then by all means do represent their infighting and backstabbing too.
Space Wolves and Bloodangles have bassic troops that have a extra CCW and ATSKNF..... hell. Space wolves alot of times have slightly cheaper squads then us that also have counter-charge!
Also Chaos dosen't have marks. They got rid of them in the current book. Now I have guys who forget what god they worship when the guy with the flag dies. yay?
Not to mention most of the icons are not worth their points. Cept maby if your a nurgle player. But even then that's quite a chunk of points to pay just for a T(4)5 or even a ++6sv that you can lose half way threw the game. Thier is a reason why you always buy Icon of Chaos Glory. You need that LD re-roll so you unit 200+ point squad of CSM don't get swept by a single bad round of CC...
How about every time the squad takes a Ld the champion takes an armour save to represent someone else trying to put a knife in his back to get that nice wargear and rank you know
Also CSM aren't at Skaven level of back stabbing...
Here is your drawback, you cant just eat the cake and still have it.
Unless I play Codex:SM, Blood Angles, or Space Wolves? Your arguement is bassicly "Chaos should suck because they aren't loyalists and therefore lost everything that makes loyalists good. But then in return they get nothing to replace what they lost, because chaos sux."
Don't get me wrong. Chaos shouldn't get ATSKNF and combat tactics. They shouldn't even get it by another name! But they should get SOMETHING. Not just a half hearted attempt, that then gets given to loyalists anyway...
=/
A Extra CCW dosen't even equal the effects of ATSKNF let alone combat tactics. And in all honesty a stat bonus alone isn't going to achieve that.
Thow the point I was trying to make earlier was that Chaos Termies and chosen should probably be WS5, instead of WS4 like they are now. I'm not sujesting anything that whould break the game here. Heck. I completly agree with you that stat wise a bassic CSM would be the same stats as a loyalist.
I really don't get why your trying so hard to argue with me, and in all honesty I still think your misunderstanding my posts. I hope I'm being more clear now.
something i keep seeing in this thread that should be pointed out.
Most of the people who are saying that the standard chaos legion trooper should be a better warrior than current marines keep throwing in the bit about "they have been around for ten thousand years."
Most of the people who disagree with that keep saying "due to the instability of the warp its more like 100 years to them."
First off the whole 100 years bit is in reference to the night lords books. Those particular marines have only aged 100 years, but that has nothing to do with all of the other bands of HH marines that took to the warp. As far as we have been told one group hiding in the warp may turn 10,000 years into 100. but another can turn 10,000 years into 1,000 or 5,000. Every time you go in you don't know what time it will be when you come out. There may be a band of night lords that has been actually fighting for almost 10,000 years. We don't know cos no one has told us. Also what about legions that haven't taken refuge in the warp?
Another thing to consider is we keep talking about the chaos legions like they are still ten thousand man strong cohesive fighting forces. Three of the main ones aren't. The world eaters and the emperors children have both broken into small warbands, as have the 1k sons. I love the idea of a giant EC force tromping through the Imperium making loud noises and getting friendly with farm animals, but unless there is a big retcon on the old fluff as to what happened to the legions after the HH that's never going to happen.
I think the fact that the base traitor marine had an extra attack was the perfect show of their extra skill and fervor on the battlefield, but now that the wolves and BAs have that (and i wouldn't be surprised if C:SM got it in the next redux) Its nothing special, Thank you codex creep.
I think that the idea that they can have access to 2 specials or their heavy before the unit reaches ten models is a great idea. We need to be able to have units that show some sort of attrition. To make it fair so small units with 2 meltas doesn't get spammed I would make the weapons cost more unless the unit was at ten models.
You bring up a good point, straight. Besides, even if most of the ORIGINAL legionnaires are dead through the hundreds of years of combat they have been through in the Eye, the current traitors in the Eye would only be a handful of generations removed from the originals.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
dionysus wrote:something i keep seeing in this thread that should be pointed out.
Most of the people who are saying that the standard chaos legion trooper should be a better warrior than current marines keep throwing in the bit about "they have been around for ten thousand years."
Most of the people who disagree with that keep saying "due to the instability of the warp its more like 100 years to them."
First off the whole 100 years bit is in reference to the night lords books. Those particular marines have only aged 100 years, but that has nothing to do with all of the other bands of HH marines that took to the warp. As far as we have been told one group hiding in the warp may turn 10,000 years into 100. but another can turn 10,000 years into 1,000 or 5,000. Every time you go in you don't know what time it will be when you come out. There may be a band of night lords that has been actually fighting for almost 10,000 years. We don't know cos no one has told us. Also what about legions that haven't taken refuge in the warp?
Let's assume that you are right, let's assume that there are actual chaos marines running around who ate so ZOMG awesome that they have actually lived ten times the time the oldest space marine has been around, without time dilation or anything like that.
How the heck have they survived that long? Space marines are not immortal, (otherwise why are chaos marines always going on about the immortality of daemon prince-hood?) but they die before their time due to all the fighting they do. How have these heresy era marines survived nearly daily battles for 10'000 years when your average marine can only last a few hundred? When the oldest space marine, a member of a chapter renowned for longevity, is a mere 1200 and is a fricking chapter master!?
GentlemanGuy wrote:I tried that fear is for the weak rule and it was brilliant.....I still lost but it does work lol
Awesome, glad you liked it, better luck next time! We made the rule just to balance the non cult units to their loyalist cousins, and it adds flavor to the game to boot.
My post was not to confirm or deny the fighting for 10,000 years. It was to point out that you all keep working with the extremes 100 and 10,000 years. the 100 based on one book reference about 1 band of marines, and the 10,000 based on the assumption that there was no funky time dilation. If that 10,000 years was broken down to 1,000 years or even 500 years of real fighting since the heresy, Legion marines still have a boat load more experience that the standard marine. But to say that the ever chaotic warp has aged every single chaos marine only 100 years....
That would mean that over ten thousand years the imperium has only fought chaos for a total of 100 of them. unless your saying the chaos marines take turns to keep um busy. but the imperium still cant keep up?
dionysus wrote:
That would mean that over ten thousand years the imperium has only fought chaos for a total of 100 of them. unless your saying the chaos marines take turns to keep um busy. but the imperium still cant keep up?
No, they are saying that time flows differently in the warp. For some it might be 100 years others might be 10 thousand years, others might be 20 thousand but when they leave the warp it's thrown them out 10 billions years into the past and there is no one to kill
10 000 years have past by in the material realm but Astartes don't live that long, ones that aren't in Dreadnoughts anyway. Dante is the oldest at 1100ish years, so he has combat experience to draw on that could rival a legionnaire.
I guess a good example of a fight between a Legionnaire and a Chapter Astartes is between Xarl and the Blood Angel in Soul Hunter by ADB.
Where the Blood Angel is matched, if not better, than Xarl in combat, Xarl is able to beat him due to his battle experience.
I don't believe that all the Legionnaires have been fighting for 10k years but they do have the advantage of probably fighting more, also with a greater chance of fighting other Astartes from other warbands and the like.
Chapter Astartes are as good as a Legionnaire, but the Legionnaire has possibly a greater well of combat experience to draw on.
I think it was an early HH book. Someone said there that "Space Marines are functionally immortal, but it is ironical because they are destined to die in battle" or it might have been in Rynn's World. Meh. Anyway,
How the heck have they survived that long? Space marines are not immortal, (otherwise why are chaos marines always going on about the immortality of daemon prince-hood?) but they die before their time due to all the fighting they do.
Daemon princes? They refer to immortality becaase, if you become a Daemon Prince, you become a Daemon. And Daemons cannot be killed, only sent back to the warp, from which they will return. There are lots of famous examples of this.
Also most of the ORIGINAL (as you subtly put it) traitors are likely dead, yes. Some are left, like the CSM special characters, and an unknown amount of their gross friends. But they recruit as well. Variation is normal; some CSM may be worse trained, some better trained. Variation is the nature of Chaos.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Age of marines is unknown, the Warp IS irregular. Blackhoof, I told you this on another thread, but your lack of answer there indicates you either is beaten or don't care anymore.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:Actually due to attrition and lack of resupply most Chaos marines spend the majority of their time slaughtering defenseless civilians and (sometimes) PDF until the imperial space marines show up and chase them away. The inevitable degredation in skills and equipment that results will be reflected on the tabletop by their 4+ save, WS 3 and Ld 7. They will also cost 20 pts each to reflect their dwindling numbers.
Except, you're forgetting that the chaos legions have innumerable dark mechanicum servants who repair,maintain and create new tech for them. They are just as able (if not more so) as the imperial mechanicum, and given they aren't plagued with the same stigma and phobias as their imperial counterparts, they can do much more without restraint.
The iron warriors have entire forgeworlds to themselves where they produce land raiders, rhinos, power armor and weapons (second ultrarmarines book) not to mention more sinister devices, like defilers. I'm probably wrong, but I seem to remember something about the dark-mechanicum being able to create new titans. Surely the ones carried over from the heresy would be in disrepair already.
But, this isn't necessarily true of all legions. The night lords, more likely than not, are still surviving on whatever they took in the heresy, and what they steal from loyalists.
Also, the Vehicles and tech they stole in the heresy was more than likely an entirely different pattern from what marines use now. I wonder if it would be too much to ask to get plastics of the new FW kits, or something similar, albeit with more chaos goodness
Red Corsair wrote:^ I agree, I keep checking in only to find debates. Which are all well thought out and even engrossing, but also inappropriate.
It's also pretty cyclical, so while it was interesting at first it's lost some of its luster.
"Chaos Marines are old and should be better!"
"They're not quite as old as you think and shouldn't be as good as you think!"
"Chaos Marines are old and should be better!"
There's nothing new to talk about. We know chaos is getting a codex in the next year, and that it'll be a legions codex, not a chaos marine codex. That's really all we can be sure of. All of ghost's rumours are more or less gak now, so there's no point in keeping this thread up, at least in the rumours section.
According to the latest release schedule rumors Chaos fans are going to have to wait until the 2nd quarter of 2013 for our dex. I don't buy it, cause my sources say right after 6th ed.
BDJV wrote:According to the latest release schedule rumors Chaos fans are going to have to wait until the 2nd quarter of 2013 for our dex. I don't buy it, cause my sources say right after 6th ed.
Stickmonkey is full of it. He has never been right about things of importance. Every year he writes what's coming and every year it is wrong. Then he deletes the thread and bam everyone forgets. Also more proof last year his prediction on chaos. They would not get a new book. Also he seems to think orkz aren't an army cause he always forgets them. Also go back 2 years dark eldar will never get a new book stop wish listing were his exact words. I used to post on warseer. I posted pictures I had gotten on some dark eldar stuff. I was given a ban cause I told stickmonkey off and showed the pictures. So yes again that fool is nothing but a fool.
He was the first to put the Necron release date to Halloween 2011, one year in advance. I call that a hit.
Esp. when even Harry nowadays doesn't dare such far ahead predictions.
Kroothawk wrote:He was the first to put the Necron release date to Halloween 2011, one year in advance. I call that a hit.
Esp. when even Harry nowadays doesn't dare such far ahead predictions.
So in 2 years he had 1 thing right? Here let me give a rumor. The next codex will have rules an army and some new models and will be out Q1.
Kroothawk wrote:He was the first to put the Necron release date to Halloween 2011, one year in advance. I call that a hit.
Esp. when even Harry nowadays doesn't dare such far ahead predictions.
So in 2 years he had 1 thing right? Here let me give a rumor. The next codex will have rules an army and some new models and will be out Q1.
And how does that compare to Stickmonkey stating that Necrons would be released in OCT/NOV of 2011? BTW, Stickmonkey was also dead on in regards to a warrior sized CCJP unit.
Anyways, I am getting a little tired of these low-content posts that simply thrash a particular rumor bearer...it is starting to get more common than Dakka's previous "Salt" meme.
Listen, if you don't believe StickMonkey's rumor that Chaos won't come out till 2013 then rebutt it with another source and quote the source. That would be a constructive post. Please don't just post Mr. X is crap.
For example:
Spoiler:
Wyomingfox wrote:I don't believe Tau will replace BT as the next Codex because both Ghost 21 and Harry stated that they had heard BT were next:
Ghost21 wrote:it is probably bt next
Harry wrote:Sounds about right to me.
I certainly heard about these guys before heard much about Tau .... the order I hear about them was Necrons and Sisters at the same time, Black Templars then Tau.
bhsman wrote:For every one of those there's 10 Summer of Fliers.
He said, 7 flyers are in the works.
Since then 2 have been released (Storm Raven and Razorwing), and 6-7 more are in the rumours (DE bomber with last minute delay, 1-2 necron flyers, Eldar Vampyre, SM flyer, Harpy with Tyranid 2nd wave delay, Tau flyer). The summer of flyer was always flagged as personal speculation by stickmonkey: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/327075.page . Not his fault that some people can't read what he said.
BTW here some Necron rumours by him, a year in advance (2-3 others didn't happen though):
Immortals possible move to Troops choice.
New Elite options
Pariahs no longer 0-1
Additional C'Tan
plastic Tomb Spyder box to make TS or variant.
And in 2010, he also predicted 40k 6th edition in 2012.
If you need more hits, just ask. Although some are still in the future.
Stickmonkey's sources are from the early production cycle, so reach far ahead but are necessary prone to changes. So these rumours are for people who can deal with uncertainties in rumours.
Okay, on topic:
theDarkGeneral wrote:Just one more thing i've heard...
*Chosen Chaos Marines: Definitely getting a lot more upgrade options! They'll get costly quickly depending upon your Legion, and what kind of wargear and armor they take. Jump packs, Terminator Armor, all combis, dual lightning claws, etc. Lots of options, but again, you'll be paying the points for them. AND, not sure on this part, but it was mentioned that specific HQ choices can take a Chosen squad as a retinue/bodyguard to free up their normal Force Org Chart slot selection. That'd be nice!
To be fair to all the rumor mongers though, the predictions about 6th ed coming out next July isn't a rumor, rather, it's a 'why the hell wouldn't GW release something BIG!' since 2012 is the 25th anniversary of 40k. (and GW fethed up the fantasy 25th anniversary pretty badly, so 40k needs to be epic to make-up for it)
A little additional simple math kinda seals the deal; 5th ed dropped in '08 = 4 years agao. GW rules sets have lately been lasting 4-5 years before a re-boot.
Not trying to take away from all of our rumor mongers! I really appreciate all the work you guys go to in order to give us the tidbits & hints we do have!
But I was also predicting 6th ed in 2012 to every one of our regular 40k players when i worked at the local GW last year... (and even got a, "well derp, of corse!" from some of the regional guys when I posed this theory to them)
I think new edition releases are likely to always be GW's worst kept secret and something we call all pretty much predict!
If I were to post a similar volume of rumours like stickmonkey and ghost do, I would get more of them right than they do. And I would just be making educated guesses.
Let me do one just now: Warhammer Fantasy 9th in 2014. Feel free to write it down and believe everything else I ever say once it comes true. I only need one hit, right?
BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think it was an early HH book. Someone said there that "Space Marines are functionally immortal, but it is ironical because they are destined to die in battle" or it might have been in Rynn's World. Meh. Anyway,
How the heck have they survived that long? Space marines are not immortal, (otherwise why are chaos marines always going on about the immortality of daemon prince-hood?) but they die before their time due to all the fighting they do.
Daemon princes? They refer to immortality becaase, if you become a Daemon Prince, you become a Daemon. And Daemons cannot be killed, only sent back to the warp, from which they will return. There are lots of famous examples of this.
oh.... quite a good point, actually. I concede my point was invalid. However, Blood Angels are famed for their longevity among space marines, as evidenced on Lexicanum here:
"The Blood Angels are among the longest-lived of the Adeptus Astartes, with some of the Chapter's Space Marines having served the Emperor of Mankind for over a thousand standard years."
if space marines were truly immortal, as in- they can be killed but cannot die of old age- then why are Blood Angels held to be especially long-lived?
Also most of the ORIGINAL (as you subtly put it) traitors are likely dead, yes. Some are left, like the CSM special characters, and an unknown amount of their gross friends. But they recruit as well. Variation is normal; some CSM may be worse trained, some better trained. Variation is the nature of Chaos.
I know.... why are you telling me this?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Age of marines is unknown, the Warp IS irregular. Blackhoof, I told you this on another thread, but your lack of answer there indicates you either is beaten or don't care anymore.
i agree that it is impossible to know the ages of each and every chaos marine, some may be 1000, some 100, but i seriously doubt that ANY are over 1000, not just because it seems their bodies would finally give out before then, but also because warfare would have killed them long beforehand.
BrotherHaraldus wrote:
I think it was an early HH book. Someone said there that "Space Marines are functionally immortal, but it is ironical because they are destined to die in battle" or it might have been in Rynn's World. Meh. Anyway,
How the heck have they survived that long? Space marines are not immortal, (otherwise why are chaos marines always going on about the immortality of daemon prince-hood?) but they die before their time due to all the fighting they do.
Daemon princes? They refer to immortality becaase, if you become a Daemon Prince, you become a Daemon. And Daemons cannot be killed, only sent back to the warp, from which they will return. There are lots of famous examples of this.
oh.... quite a good point, actually. I concede my point was invalid. However, Blood Angels are famed for their longevity among space marines, as evidenced on Lexicanum here:
"The Blood Angels are among the longest-lived of the Adeptus Astartes, with some of the Chapter's Space Marines having served the Emperor of Mankind for over a thousand standard years."
if space marines were truly immortal, as in- they can be killed but cannot die of old age- then why are Blood Angels held to be especially long-lived?
Also most of the ORIGINAL (as you subtly put it) traitors are likely dead, yes. Some are left, like the CSM special characters, and an unknown amount of their gross friends. But they recruit as well. Variation is normal; some CSM may be worse trained, some better trained. Variation is the nature of Chaos.
I know.... why are you telling me this?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Age of marines is unknown, the Warp IS irregular. Blackhoof, I told you this on another thread, but your lack of answer there indicates you either is beaten or don't care anymore.
i agree that it is impossible to know the ages of each and every chaos marine, some may be 1000, some 100, but i seriously doubt that ANY are over 1000, not just because it seems their bodies would finally give out before then, but also because warfare would have killed them long beforehand.
and i got bored on the other thread....
replies in blue.
Ah there seem to be a misunderstanding. Marines are technically immortal. Blood Angels may be an unusually lucky chapter in that the oldest of their members have not yet died in battle, or Blood Angels may be an extremely powerful chapter in raw strength and might (which explains their rules ) . Take Bjorn the Fell-handed. He, most certainly, is more than 10.000 years old. (even if he sleeps a lot) But being in a Dreadnought does not affect lifetime, as far as I know. Have you not read it too? Ithink it was in the conversation between Captain Loken and some remembrancer that Loken said "Space Marines are technically immortal, but they are destined to die in battle" (may not be the exact formulation)
BrotherHaraldus wrote:Ah there seem to be a misunderstanding. Marines are technically immortal. Blood Angels may be an unusually lucky chapter in that the oldest of their members have not yet died in battle, or Blood Angels may be an extremely powerful chapter in raw strength and might (which explains their rules ) . Take Bjorn the Fell-handed. He, most certainly, is more than 10.000 years old. (even if he sleeps a lot) But being in a Dreadnought does not affect lifetime, as far as I know. Have you not read it too? Ithink it was in the conversation between Captain Loken and some remembrancer that Loken said "Space Marines are technically immortal, but they are destined to die in battle" (may not be the exact formulation)
*going to lexicanum*
They may be 'immortal' (that is to say I haven't read of a marine dying of old age), however they become useless long before they could die from natural causes. From a fairly recent BL book there was a loyalist marine who was indeed a few millenium old (I forget the exact amount), however his body had degraded to the point where he could no longer move within his power armour, he had been that way for several centuries if I recall correctly.
I think you're referring to Salamander, but in that case he had been sat down and immobile for centuries, and I took it that he had essentially atrophied through inactivity, rather than degraded with age.
.
. Chaos has always have only one real codex at a time and we had to wait those years anyway for 
believe that they would be so much sharper and better. Your logic is tragic.
