-i really really shouldnt but, ive only seen a dreadnaught of the two mentioned (regarding a previous report of new plastic Chaos Dread and Raptors)
-To quickly add. will lesser chaos gods feture. yes n all of the fallen legions will be there
-saw preliminary types for khonate chrono gladiators... and a really bizarre night lord assassin type thing...
-oh im sure if people want a new abaddon.. i saw one but really it isnt much...
-little horus on the other hand... now there's a wow figure
-there was a little heated discussion weather alpha legion should be in this or the traitors dex... there in the legion dex
-the new abaddon as really it just seems bigger n bulkier, like somebody 3d scanned it n made him larger
-the minor chaos gods are already named, its like marks though, no daemons
-i did see a dark mechanicus guy... not sure if he will make it though, a very creepy sculpt based on a john Blanche piece
-this is really something to be taken with a grain of salt there may may be a 30k boxed set at some point, containing one of each of the legions
characters
And make of this what you will:
-oh one last thing its ward
However, there is a conflicting (and perhaps more reliable) rumour on BnC:
Castiel wrote:About Matt Ward... I don't think he's involved. Why?
Hello all, I just thought I’d share my sort-of discussions regarding a future Chaos Codex with two members of the development team at yesterday’s Games Day ‘event’.
Basically, I spoke to Jervis Johnson (head designer, apparently) and Matt Ward (yeah, I know, I know…). Now, I could have ranted at them with four years of hatred towards our lack-lustre Codex, but I thought it would be more productive (and less antagonistic) if I approached them with a friendly smile (well, what pass as one from me ) and my own personal thoughts/desires on our next Codex.
In a nutshell, more options regarding things like vehicles, specifically variants of Rhinos and Land Raiders – I said that the reasons for restricting the loyalist Marines with what they can do to theirs don’t apply to Chaos (we don’t have angry Tech Priests after us), so if we want to, say, put Assault Ramps on our Rhinos, there’s no one to stop us!
I also tried to get across that Chaos Marine armies (whether you go for Renegades or Legions) can broadly fit in to two approaches which could shape the development of this Codex – firstly the ‘Black Crusade’, which is about throwing the full force of what your army/legion does best till you opponent has nothing standing (I guess this could include your World Eaters Berzerker assault force, or an Iron Warriors siege force, or the relentless march of the Death Guard). The second approach is the Cultist/Ambush/Terror approach – the one where you don’t have the resources for a full scale invasion, but you’ve already sent your agents (be they infiltrating Marines or Cultists) to defeat your enemy before they’ve even realised they’re at war – assassinating commanders, sabotaging and destroying tanks, that sort of thing (obviously, this is your Night Lords, Alpha Legion, perhaps Word Bearers army). Either way, whichever approach should still allow themed, or Legion based lists, if that’s what Chaos players wanted
In my conversations with both Jervis and Matt, I started off saying that I’d like to see Special Characters that add army wide abilities, which got very strong nods of understanding from both of them. The problem I immediately hit was that they both pretty much said that they’re not going to be involved with the development of Chaos Marines; Jervis said that he would pass on my comments thought (whether he does is another thing!).
You may find Matt Ward’s response more interesting: he basically said blatantly that he was not going to be working on Chaos. Yes, that’s right, you can all breathe a sigh of relief! Then, more interestingly, he looked around for the other member of the team at Games Day, who was absent every time I went to the developers’ area, but would have liked to speak to – a certain Mr Phil Kelly. Now, (cue wild speculation) judging by this, I got the strong impression that Phil Kelly is likely to be involved in the development – perhaps even writing it?
That was the only serious nugget that I found of comfort from Jervis or Matt Ward to be honest. They both talked about there being a lot of potential with Chaos Marines that a future codex could build upon. Matt Ward went further, basically saying in so many words that he realised the Chaos codex is disliked and that it didn’t really achieve what the later, more recent Codices have. He also said that the Codices from Space Wolves onwards should give more of the shape of a Chaos Marine Codex, in terms of increased amount of options. Hopefully, like some Codices, that means under-priced/over powered (delete as appropriate ) units like these other ones, too He also said about the current Chaos Codex that it offers a good basis from which to start developing a new one. Not sure I agree with him, but I’m hoping he means that it is something that can be expanded and improved upon, rather than just recycling it…
So, I had gone to Games Day with the intention of getting in to a really intense discussion about giving Chaos a codex of which it is worthy. I think I didn’t really speak to the right people for that (if only I’d have been able to find Phil Kelly!), so I think ultimately I got some insubstantial platitudes. I was heartened that a) Matt Ward won’t be writing the next Chaos Codex, and b ) there was the suggestion that Phil Kelly is at the very least going to be involved in the development of our next codex.
Some more tidbits by Ghost21:
To quickly add. will lesser chaos gods feture. yes
n all of the fallen legions will be there
On the 6th edition starter set:
if you want plastic plague bearers .. wait for the 6th ed starter
mrtn wrote:
Thank you for this rumour! Now that should mean that they are either summonable for a CSM army, or that there will be chaos daemons in the starter set. In that case I assume they will have to rewrite the list extensively, I can't see a starter army where one player doesn't even deploy on the table...
or have the scenario on some kind of daemon infested world....
It was also mentioned somewhere in the Warseer thread that apparently Chaos Renegades will get a White Dwarf update but will have full codex later, focusing more on Traitor Guard/LaTD than Marines.
Just to set this next rumor up, the current rumor mill places next years releases like this....
Tau Q1, probably after Vampire Counts in January
Chaos Legions Mid Year
Eldar Towards the end of the year.
I sometimes get rumors sent to me, and this is one of them. I removed the sources name, and how and who the information was recieved from. Even the rumor declares taking it with a lot of salt, so please do so.
I had a chance to get information straight from a codex designer.
Chaos legions will be out in January or February dependant on necron sales, however it will probably be January. I don't know whether he was messing with me or not, so read and apply a lot of salt. He was straight with me about necrons being released in November. Chaos Legions are being taken back to their roots from the Horus Heresy, and it was a bit late due to the re-design of the fluff to fit in with 6ed.
Via Schell Chaos seems to be coming out around the new 40k rule book, which is rumoured for release next summer.
I believe someone started a rumour a couple of months ago, cannot remember who, stating that chaos would be the first (hardback???) release for the new rulebook.
The starter set(s) are Chaos and Dark Angels; this was the original rumour; however, this was quickly trashed by saying that Dark Angels would NOT be in the starter set. Chaos does seem to be there though.
Apparently Imperial Guard renegade armies will be a part of the Chaos release.
Via Ghost21 the first thing i have to say is that there are 2 chaos books planed
one more renagade based the other legion based the legion one will be that, dudes who are 10000 years old kicking ass n taking names
there "may" be a inquisitor whos gone bad but really expect new guys in the renegade one
its lost and the damned influenced... but it has other options....
also 2012??...maybe at a push
A big thanks to Kroothawk for keeping this thread up to date since then:
ghost21 wrote:Okay, time to end the what-ifs:
There will be 3 Chaos dexes as far as I'm aware: Legions, Renegades and Daemons
Now Daemons will appear in the Legion Codex but not those awful lesser things they are now. I'm not sure about greater daemons. However, if you are doing a Legion list, it's based on "Black legion(or the generic list)" or one of the others.
Legions:
Whats there ? Lots!
World Eaters with bolt guns you say? Yeah, they're there.
Expect very powerful characters here (they are 10 Milena old). My favorite is the overpowered red angel: Now he IS angry!
I'll do the others, if people wish.
Ghost21 wrote:
Hrogoff the Destructor wrote:
Not that Red Angel, I'm talking about the floating chained up (and presumably daemon possessed) Red Angel from the Horus Heresy artwork.
Brother SRM wrote:Read this on another forum I frequent:
Aaron Dembski-Bowden has posted on B&C to say he thinks the Legions/Renegades book split is nonsense, as is the "Red Angel" that has been rumoured to be in the new book:
"For the record, the Red Angel showing up would surprise me just as much as the separated Renegade/Legion codices, since he's showing up in the Heresy in ways even we've not fully decided yet (we only recently decided who he was), and the IP department are fully aware of it, having been at the meetings.
Seriously, I know it's cool to have rumours, but a lot of these reek of nonsense - especially the twin codex one, and the Red Angel."
ghost21 wrote:
I assume the Red Corsairs will figure prominently in the Renegade book? Will they try and give Renegade chapters more "codex/loyalist" gear?
Not exactly. As I understand, it's a LATD list first and foremost.
Traitor generals, guard, SOME marines, mutants, cults etc.
(...)
I shouldn't but....
Okay, true they have stagnated, but do you think they sit about drinking beer and catching rays?
No, they constantly fight, so I think they are sharp if not sharper than most Marines
Knowing what I know.. and I don't like angry marines because they are angry... but they've expanded beyond that khorne wants skulls true, he wants blood equally true, but the path of devotion doesnt make them all frothing loonies. Khan is an enigma, a one off, if they were all like him, well he'd be the last.
I have to say I'm excited for chaos, there is allot allot of inspiration from the 3.5 dex, with warsmiths, dark apostles and the alpha legion rules. Well, lets say they have a dual command structure
ghost21 wrote:I know a lot of you have questions about individual units and legions. I'll try to address them all, however there are limits on how much I can get away with.
I'll say this: there are havoc's for marked legions.
Though each legion will get something unique to them, from force organization to individual units to HQs, for example Night Lords and World Eaters can only have 1 heavy support but get other boni.
Remember Huron has quite decent kit, so expect something like a 2nd ed list for him. Also, in some ways picking a legion will restrict you, there are a lot of chaos characters already in fluff so expect most to return ... plus a few new faces.
Who's the star of the show, huh? Now, that is something, I'll hold onto for a while.
ghost21 wrote:Basically, as I understand, if we want more than 1 havoc squad, they have to trade sth for it (so not limits on HS per sé)
As I understand, they can take khornate engines without restriction.
Sorry to cause confusiuon.
(...)
There are downsides to chaos units: Nurgle can't do sweeping advances (I think that's what they are called, and are stoic), Khorne has to engage in some kind of combat every turn or suffer a d6 result, Tzeentch (sp, ooooh I hate that word) are mindless automatons, who need a command figure or suffer a d6 result to guide their actions, and Slaanesh ... well let's say they have very harsh results.
(...)
As I've said, it will probably be the first or second 6th ed book, 6th ed is slated for july I think (but also I have bb then... so I dunno), so anything up to 4 months after that (and this is the Legions book, not the renegades).
theDarkGeneral wrote:I'm glad ghost21 was able to confirm my early reply about Warsmiths and Dark Apostles, and World Eaters w/Bolters...
Here's more tidbits over a few shots of bourbon and some cigars...
*Chaos Dreads: No longer crazed or deranged, and new plastic (FINALLY) sprue to incorporate some new/old dreadnought close combat weapons types (chainfist, thunderhammer, power scourge, etc.)...but i'm more excited about being able to have Marked Dreads!!!
*Assault Berzerkers! Finally, Berzerkers with jump packs counting as Fast Attack!
*Slaughterfiends from Apoc will make their way into the Codex, along with versions for "Marked" type ones for other Legions.
*HQs making a return (lil' salt): Droomrider, Doombreed, Cypher , along with 5 newish guys.
*Unit size changes: Oblitz can come in up to 4, while most Daemon Engines can be 3 for 1...
*New Landraider: So we no longer have to suffer with just the old crumby one, has a higher capacity (15?) but is more of "warped" version of one of the Imperial versions.
*Force Org Chart: As ghost21 has alluded to, it won't change according to your Legion (HQs) as in swapping more Heavies for less Fast, but your access to units in those categories opens up, becomes limited, or closes off accordingly. Easy example I was given, is taking Khorne Daemon Prince means no Scouts...
(...)
I mean there is to be a "scout unit", but no associated with the World Eaters.
And as Brother Dimetrius has already mentioned, Cypher indeed was a Chaos model, and appeared in at least one of our previous Codexes. Could that mean a hint at Dark Angels around the bend? I think that'd be very cool, especially considering they are the FIRST Legion...
*Nightlords: I don't ask much about them, though a lil' i have for my buddy Paul has around 25,000+ points of them...Hit & Run and Stealth for universal special rules, but possible counter attack (for elite unit) as well as jump pack troops.
*Possessed: FINALLY getting some love, and according to Legion, they will have upgrades either already included or that you can pay for.
*Word Bearers: Apparently getting a lil' extra attention, and besides Dark Apostles, new models for "daemonancers", which just might be unit champs/sgt upgrades. I'm not sure. BUT, their summoning of Daemons from the Warp apparently allows re-rolls on the scatter dice, as well as new mishap chart!
*Deathguard: Feel no pain and blight grenades for their Cult Terminators, new nasty flamers upgrades.
*Thousand Sons: AP3 bolters will be MUCH more useful under 6th Edition, and a couple new Psychic abilities, one of which (supposedly) can remove an entire enemy squad from the table on a failed stat test!
*Iron Warriors: Access to Thunder Hammer & Storm Shield termies, thunderfire cannon off-shoot, Havocs w/Tank Hunters and relentless for some squad...
*Emperor's Children: Lash is finally changed to be more in line with Daemon version. More heavy weapons upgrade count for larger units. Better Bikes? Not sure what that means...
*Alpha Legion: Lots of infiltrating abilities, outflanking, and even temporary control of enemy squads/vehicles...basically sneaky bastards!
*Black Legion: HQs allow broader access to all unit types, but lack of better universal special rules.
(...)
To think their won't be drawbacks...wait, what are the drawbacks to playing Space Wolves or Grey Knights????....
I don't recall either ghost21 or myself mentioning any such thing...thus far just the wanted positives have been posted.
Rage? Modified by LD tests...which are/can be modified by characters and or enemy models within "X" vicinity.
Arrogance...newish rule (with a different name), which is almost like looking down upon a foe and not wishing to fight...or tactically fall back.
Target Armor Priority...how hard will it be for certain Havoc squads to NOT shoot the Devilfish behind the Crisis Battlesuites?
There WON'T be Force Org Chart slots exchanged for another...but access to units from Force Org Chart will be modified according to HQs...
theDarkGeneral wrote:I should probably start probing my buddies for more info on other Legion stuff.
Something interesting that i've forgotten to mention, is that Apocalypse has really helped changed 40K in general, and much of it's popularity is spilling over into the upcoming 6th Edition Rule Book as well as upcoming Codexes. This of course included many newish rules and models...couple years back I was told of plastic kits made for both the Warhound Titan and the Thunderhawk assault ship...but apparently either the world wide economy slipping stopped their production, or the problematic 6 sprue count for boxed sets.
What does this spell for Chaos? Thus far many of the staff/play testers are liking the idea of Hell Blades for the Chaos Legions, mostly to help counter act much of the new "fliers" coming out. Supersonic is a cool rule.
I find it very interesting that both ghost21 and I have heard about 3 Chaos Codexes to be released within the next year or so. My info says 3 Chaos Legions per Codex (with a possible 2 later Chaos type Codexes), and his is that of a Legions, a Lost and the Damned, then Daemons. Either way, looks like us Chaos folk are in for some good times and models i'm sure!
Onto other items i've forgotten...(again peeps, salt with 'em)...
*No Venerables: Even if we do get the Slaaneshi Dread special character, we'll still be denied access to venerable dreads.
*Nurgle Flamers: Yeah, I guess they can be poisoned 3+ or even 2+ (special character?).
*Ahriman: I believe someone on the original thread asked about him. Yeah, he gets better, partially because of the new Psychic powers that Chaos gains. He also supposedly has some kind of guaranteed psychic ability that can't be stopped via Psychic Hoods, etc.
*Monstrous Beast: Now, this is intriguing, because my one buddy says to expect a large, monstrous creature type for Chaos besides the Greater Daemons...??? Now what Legion uses anything like that? Maybe a hint towards ghost21's info of The Lost and the Damned???
*Brazen Knights: Skull Champions riding a top Juggernauts.
h75hastings69 wrote:I can add to this that the new plastic Raptors are very nice
ghost21 wrote:Dude, I mentioned like a gladiator themed world eater unit.
And doomrider is a unit upgrade (personally I hate doomrider).
And Emperor's Children get something like soul shieldsman (an upgrade for veterans I think).
Ghost any other special units for specific cults besides the gladiator ones? Sorry for asking more than once, but any new plastic cult troops on the horizon?
I really wish I could say yes, only plague marines I believe.
Believe me: I want plastic noise marines but I haven't seen any.
Nurgle gets kinda bikes, but really with their stoic rule I have no idea why you'd want to.
ghost21 wrote:
Stoic means, that they can't do a sweeping advance or did I misunderstand that?
That's the correct definition as far as I understand. They get something like true grit as well.
They can't rely entirely on the Marks, though, because there are still 5 Legions that don't have a god. I don't see why it can't be done like the 3.5 Chaos dex where you do just pick from the 9 Legions when making your army and pay for it appropriately.
5 legions that don't have a god you say?
Technically, Word Bearers have all gods. I'm not touching Alpha Legion with a barge pole. Night Lords use chaos to cause terror. Iron Warriors worship the dark machine kinda. And, well, Black Legion are kinda the generic we have our toe in each pool.
(...)
Iron Warriors use the dark machine like we use PCs.
So more chat time with the boyz over on FB...
It sounds like we're getting a large upgrade to our current plight when it comes to vehicles and gear and equipment and special rules. Some will be current "Marine type" vehicles, but a few new ones. Yeah, there is a Chaos "flyer" but it's NOT the Hell Blade (or Hell Talon). Not a troop transport, just designed to cause havoc on entrenched enemy squads (hvy Flamers?).
Here's a list of what things we talked about, items with an evil grin are tentative...
*Power of the Machine Spirit/Infernal Engine possible
*Land Raider Crusader/Redeemer/?: possible
*They Shalt Know No Fear: No
*Fearless: (Cult Terminators, and a few specific Legions) certain units possibly
*Razorback: No
*Whirlwind: No
*Attack Bikes: (possibly with Reaper Autocannons) kind of
*Thunderfire Cannon: (Iron Warriors and Alpha Legion) they get something else, but kind of
*Landspeeder: sort of
*Artificer Armor: it's called something else
*Techmarines: (about half the Legions) kind of
*Chaplains: (Word Bearers) only Word bearers
*Psychic Hood: it's called something else
*Stormraven Gunship: No
*Venerable Dreads: only one that's a special character
BUT, we're definitely getting new Monstrous Creature (that's not a Summoned Greater Daemon), as well as Juggernaut ridden Berzerkers, and a retinue similar to Command Squads (which can take either Terminator Armor, Jump Packs, ride a Bike or Daemon Beast!)...though I'm not 100% on the riding Daemonic mounts for the Chosen Command Squad...
silent surrender wrote:I heard the new monstrous creature is called a "Rotzilla" any truth to that?
ghost21 wrote:I can see certain vehicles getting a chaos daemon engine equivalent but not exact copies. And that's all I can add on the matter (under penalty of catapult).
thank jeebus ghost said "kinda" to a few things cos like alot of chaos fans i feel we dont need a whirlwind (for example.. insert whichever loyalist USR/tank/gear here) we need a chaos slant.. a different tank, different look same role. I think thats all we really want something without spikes tacked on as an after thought
Chaos do refit some things but really all those deamon forgeworlds have to make something apart from those defilers.
theDarkGeneral wrote:I think only a few peeps understood my previous post.
All the items I listed were just what we talked about in the differences between Chaos Legions and most Space Marine Legions. It's NOT a list of what's to come out. The items with a are possible/tentative to the new Codex.
I posted earlier wondering if the Thundefire Cannon like weapon you suggested might be the Thunderstrike Assault Gun.
Would you be able to confirm or deny that?
As far as I know, it's a "daemonic thing".
Were there any other special cult units like the Gladiator themed one you've already mentioned?
As I understand, there will be at least 1-2 additional units for the cult legions. There's a unit like the space wolf, wolf guard that all legions get.
(i think that's what there called the veteran guys who can choose different kit, i also think that's where those jugger riding zerkers may appear, this unit though can be upgraded in god specific lists to be "special" )
As far as I understand, these are special themed units , not just cult terminators.
The Thousand Sons get a really odd unit, of people who were powerful enough not to be hit by the rubic. I'll update that one later. I think they only get one (unless he wasn't joking about screamer surfing marines).
EC get a very defensive unit, who have like sonic shields.
wyomingfox wrote:A nice find by Shabbadoo on Warseer
Shabbadoo wrote:Not sure if anybody posted it yet, but here is a possible tidbit from the rules for the new Land Raider Proteus:
Power of the Machine Spirit(Imperial)/Infernal Device(Chaos): A
Land Raider can fire one more weapon that would normally be permitted
based upon its movement speed; this weapon may be fired at a separate
target if desired. A Land Raider may also fire a single weapon even if it
has suffered a Crew Shaken or Crew Stunned result that turn.
While Forgeworld does make up its own rules for things, they usually don't do it for a core piece of equipment on a core vehicle, so perhaps the Chaos Land Raider will soon enough be more useful(which would be nice).
TheDarkGeneral wrote:Well, i'm glad actually to not be part of that lil' argument...i'm just here to post what i've heard, things I assume, and my own personal thoughts and hopes. I just have to be a lil' clearer on my posts I suppose.
THINGS I'VE HEARD:
*Brazen Knights: Or whatever they're going to call the Berzerkers a top Juggernauts, won't be in the Fast Attack slot like the Thunder Cav (Space Wolves). Probably Elites, with no way to move to Troops.
*Word Bearers: Will be able to take Marked units but with some restrictions. Apparently with all the current Black Library Books out on them (I'm enjoying their reads!), and mention of the Sanctified in Siege of Vraks, the ability to take Marked units has been brought up. Not sure how they'll do this, if it'll be a 1 unit for 1 unit.
*Alpha Legion: Hardest to get info on, but "might" be able to force a re-roll on the type of scenario?! This honestly sounds more like a Special Character ability to me...but we'll see...
*Iron Warriors: Their Cult Terminators will have access to Thunder Hammer & Storm Shields, as well as Iron-Fire Cannon (thunder fire). Basic Chaos Marine squads "may" be able to take an additional heavy weapons team once past 10 models...
*Kharn: Gets a new model (FINALLY), which is bulkier and still ferocious in motion...his rules get better for survive ability like Eternal Warrior and a 4+ Invul, but his bloodshed knows no bounds...
THINGS I ASSUME:
*Mixing Legions: I'm still not sure about this, but i'm under the impression that Black Legion HQs will grant you more access to a wider variety of different Legion's units, though not gaining their particular Army wide rules.
*HQs: Sounds like they're gonna be the deciding factor on who/what you can take, from the various Daemon Engines, to particular number of each squad in their respective slot.
*Daemons: Odd...but it may be just the lessor and greater daemon versions in the new codex. So example that World Eaters would be able to summon forth just Bloodletters and Bloodthirsters...i'm hoping this is incorrect.
THINGS I'M HOPING FOR:
*Vehicle upgrades: Based off of Legion/Marks! It'd be nice to see this return!
*Chaos Wargear: MORE HQ upgrades! Like previous Codexes (i know this isn't the correct spelling of Codices). I truly miss being able to personalize character models with cool, useful, and non-marine upgrades! Like the Dark Blade!
*Chosen & Possessed: I've heard few lil' rumblings about them, but I personal hope they become a lot more upgrade-able, according to Legion.
*Dread Claws: This would be VERY nice and much needed!
*Plagueknights: Though I no longer field Nurgle, i think it'd be awesome to see some plastic kits for Plaguemarines riding Beasts of Nurgle!
*Legion Icon Bearers: It'd be way cool to have a Legion Icon Bearer that granted some kind of benefit to his squad, or models within 12", etc...and of course a bad ass model to go along with it!
wyomingfox wrote:Warseer's WordBearer brought up another interesting point in relation to recent Forge World entries
This is purely speculative on my part, but recent Forgeworld stuff has had the ability for Chaos to dedicate a vehicle to a particular god to change its statline. If Forgeworld is being used as a test-bed, I think this is very plausible.
wyomingfox wrote:Moved from Tau thread: Again, didn't notice these in the rumor summary.
From July 22, 2011:
Librarium Online's Jared Van Kell wrote:
Big Red wrote:Oh, the birds are a tweet tweeting... Here's the latest scuttlebutt out there on what's coming down the pipe for Warhammer 40000...
So we all know this summer is Sisters of Battle in White Dwarf.
Next up is Necrons said to be in the November time slot (same as Dark Eldar last year)
Then Chaos Legions in the March 2012 time slot (same as the Grey Knights slot). This is said to not be a replacement for the current Chaos Space Marines book which may get some retconing and erratas to make it effectively the Chaos Renegade book come 6th Edition.
Yes I did mention 6th Edition - said to be hot on the heels of the Chaos Legion book, taking up next summer with the standard multi-month new edition release slot.
From Bell of Lost Souls. I've heard something about this, but nothing definite. Matt Ward is on this one by all accounts and it has been on the back boil for quite some time with Matt and others working on it between projects. All rumours indicate it being more akin to the 3rd chaos book with special characters for each legion....
This book will focus on the original chaos legions in their own right so that each legion plays a little differently with respect to how they operate in the fluff. ie: Iron Warriors having more artillery and obliterators, Night Lords having more bikes and raptors.
Things like Cult Terminators are likely to make a return with the proviso that you can only take them in a dedicated cult list for example.
From 11-2-11:
Librarium Online's Jared Van Kell wrote:I'm surprised Ghost21 let out this much. He is usually so tight lipped about rumours.
...the first thing i have to say is that there are 2 chaos books planed
one more renagade based the other legion based the legion one will be that, dudes who are 10000 years old kicking ass n taking names True.
Expect something along the lines of the Lost and the Damned list from the Eye of Terror campaign.
there "may" be a inquisitor who's gone bad but really expect new guys in the renegade one. its lost and the damned influenced... but it has other options....
There will be some Chaos Spacemarine and Chaos Daemon influence.
..."Chaos Legions as an uber-elite army, probably comparable to Grey Knights in that regard?" -
YES Death Guard and Iron Warriors are going to be popular again.
"and a second book that deals with Chaos Renegades, that includes Chaos Guard, or might even focus on non-marine chaos?"
- YES Expect a few "interesting" tanks.
...little horus?....
you could be onto something Horus Axiamand. Read the first 3 Horus Heresy books to know who he is.
From 11-14-11:
Jared Van Kell wrote:Iron Warriors are getting Honsou.
On 11-15-11:
Librarium Online's Jared Van Kell wrote:
Librarium Online's Fantasticmrfox wrote:Latest news [from Warseer]: (masses of salt required)
1. New plastic chaos dread and plastic raptors
2. All of the fallen legions to feature (and a boxed set featuring a named character FROM EVERY LEGION!)
3. Khornate Chrono Gladiators (whatever they are)
4. Nightlords Assassins
5. New Abaddon sculpt (the bad boy is back!)
6. Marks but No Daemons
7. A Dark mechanicus sculpt
oh and "Legions" if the first of two codexes - "traitors" codex will follow.....
1. The plastic raptors and the dreadnoughts are going to happen as I am aware though the raptors will be release a bit later.
2. Horus Axiamand, Honsou, Unknown Raptor Lord, Kharn the Betrayer, Ahriman, Typhus, Lucius the Eternal.
3. Chrono-gladiators are individuals who must keep killing to stop a countdown timer in their heads from killing them. The more they kill the longer it stops.
4. I've not heard anything solid on those yet.
5. Abaddon's sculpt is not much different than it is now, just a bit bigger.
6. Not entirely correct.
7. The Dark Mechanicus model is a side project.
wyomingfox wrote: It's like playing Telephone with those guys over at warseer
Ghost didn't mention anything about a 30K supplement (as in a codex or rule book). He mentioned the possibility of a box set of models.
Ghost21 wrote:30k boxed set at some point, containing one of each of the legions characters
Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:
The more rumours I check out, the more I see that are clearly false.
"Ghost21" seems to be the one spouting the most nonsense. Whether I was privy to actual Codex rumours or not is pretty irrelevant when there are several points I can flat-out say "Nope" to, in regards to how the IP department explains the fluff to us, and when the rumours are pretending to use characters that the codices are essentially not allowed to touch / wouldn't use without asking us what those characters' fates actually are.
There's even been several people at GDUK this year saying Mat Ward specifically said he's not writing to the Chaos Codex, yet ghost21 insists he is.
Seriously, don't get your hopes up over his rumours.
Kroothawk wrote:First ghost's reply to the Bolter&Chainsword comment:
ghost21 wrote:I'm not exactly sure what to say to that one... regardless.
If he is who he says he is, why take such a hard ass attitude?
He could friendly say "nope", or "I dont think so" or in fact I invite him to come here and talk it over in PM. I mentioned the red angel and little horus (it could have been some guys conversion but he was fairly confident he would make it ).
And if he says who he says he is, we've actually met at those IP meetings.
oh and one last thing writers are told who dies n who doesn't not the other way around
Aaron wrote:
if he is who he says he is why take such a hard ass attitude?
I'm not taking any attitude, really. I'm only pointing out the rumours I know are either false, or exceedingly unlikely to bear fruit.
Bear in mind how anyone in the company hears X or hears Y, from sources A, B and C. I'm not - and will never - share what I have or haven't heard about codex or army book development. Just making that clear. No one in my position would. I don't even hint whether I know anything. I say nothing about it. I like my career and have no interest in losing it.
However, purely as a member of the Heresy team and someone who suckles directly from the core lore sources, some of those rumours are either patently false, or ring hollow with how the IP seems to be presented / was explained to several of us / has been mentioned as being presented in the future.
(...)
This is what I said on B&C in my original comments on the subject. Before anything gets out of hand, I'd like to make it clear that I was specifically talking about a couple of points, most notably HH characters in the codex:
"For the record, the Red Angel showing up would surprise me just as much as the separated Renegade/Legion codices, since he's showing up in the Heresy in ways even we've not fully decided yet (we only recently decided who he was), and the IP department are fully aware of it, having been at* the meetings."
(*or privy to)
I'm not making any comment on the other stuff. If I happened to be friends with people at head office and interacted with them professionally and/or personally (which I am, and do) I'd still say nothing. Which is the same thing I'd say if I knew nothing at all. I like my job, hence why I have no interest in risking it.
Purely as an HH writer, I'd be - shall we say - stunned to see certain characters show up in the next Chaos codex, especially when we've only just decided who they are, and their fates aren't decided. That just doesn't strike me as likely.
Aaron Dembski-Bowden wrote:
Brother Dimetrius wrote:A thought occurred, if ADB claims that they are very strict on their IP management for the HH characters (and I see no reason why they shouldn't be), doesn't that kill the idea of a 30k supplement that Ghost alluded to for the short/medium term?
That's not quiiiiiiiite what I'm saying, but I see your point. It's not a matter of strict IP management, and more just a matter of good sense and respecting each other's boundaries. My comments on the rumours were on three topics:
1. I'm not being anything like as specific as the above quote. All I'm saying is that given how the Heresy team and the IP lords have only just decided who several major Heresy-era characters are (and some still haven't had their fates decided), it'd be unlikely they showed up in a Chaos Codex.
2. I also find it unlikely they'd break Chaos Space Marines into two codices.
3. And, lastly, that it's claimed Mat Ward is writing it, when several people have spoken to Mat Ward at GDUK and reported on forums that he specifically said he wasn't writing it. That's not even my rumour, it just seems to have been lost in the mix, despite being shared elsewhere.
Just to be clear: I'm avoiding any mention of actual information I may or may not have heard, and I'm not commenting on a 30K supplement at all - which would be the case whether there was never going to be one, or it was gonna be announced tomorrow with me as lead developer. I only commented in this thread at all because I found it bizarre my identity was being called into question due to a related conversation on another forum, and I was getting quoted here in terms of stuff that had come at the end of a long, long debate elsewhere. It needed some context.
My only other comment was to suggest that ghost21's rumours were to be taken with a pinch of salt given those three things to consider. Admittedly, because of the vagueness (and general apparent likelihood - new minis, etc.) of a lot of those rumours, it's likely a lot of them would be true even if plenty weren't, but you can probably trust me that three I mentioned are most definitely "unlikely". That's literally all I've said on the subject.
Apologies for restating that for clarity, but I really don't wanna get misquoted on any of this. I've been very careful (you have to be, when talking about this stuff - I regret ever opening my mouth about it), and my comments originally on B&C were purely in my perspective on what was likely as a member of the HH team.
Kroothawk wrote:
Which was commented on Warseer by:
decker_cky wrote:So really what you're saying is that you're writing the 30k supplement, right?
massey wrote:I think he also confirmed a plastic Thunderhawk as well.
thewickedworm wrote:Sounds like he also confirmed something about space dwarves. . .
Officials posting on forums don't have it
Kroothawk wrote:Update:
StraightSilver wrote:Well I wasn't going to post in this as I have decided to stay pretty much out of the rumours forum to be honest.
I just wanted to back up what some of the others have been saying, rumours are just that and should be treated as such.
I have a couple of very good contacts at GWHQ and they often mention things to me regarding future releases, but as Aaron said more often than not they heard it from X, who heard it from Y etc.
It's also the fact that GW work years in advance and things do change, so what may be true early on in development will not be true by time of release.
There's also the fact that people are only human and things do get misinterpreted once they hit the web, and also people just sometimes don't want to agree with you.
The problem I have found is that people do take it all a bit personally, and that's the reason I stopped posting in the rumours threads, as I had a bad experience on "another forum".
However I would say to Ghost keep posting, not everything will be right but that's why they're called rumours, and everybody will have an opinion.
And I would also like to say that I have met Aaron a couple of times at BL events, Games Day etc and he really is a top bloke. It is way too easy on the internet to misinterpret what somebody is saying because you aren't face to face, and I don't for one minute think he was being confrontational.
And as far as I know since GW set up Black Library (after Boxtree published for them) they have stayed away from including original author creations in Codexes.
I think the exception may be Gaunt in one of the previous IG Codexes, but generally you won't see Ciaphas Cain, Eisenhorn etc in a Codex.
Back on topic I don't have a huge amount to offer, as I say I tend not to disclose anything these days but I do recall something that Jervis Johnson said a while ago.
Apparently when Gav Thorpe wrote the last CSM Dex he was given very strict instructions on what he could and couldn't do. He was pretty much forced to streamline the Codex as the dev team thought the previous one was too complicated.
Gav really didn't have much say in the Dex, and wasn't happy with just how stripped down it was, but those were the wishes of the design department.
However Jervis said that as soon as the Dex was released they realised they had made a mistake, and started planning the new Dex almost immediately.
Suffice it to say this new Dex has been in planning for quite some time, and the idea was to reintegrate some of the elements from the Codex before last.
Jervis also said that the plan was to release the Legions book, but keep the current CSM Codex as a Renegades Codex.
This may be where the confusion of 2 books arises from, as far as I know the new Legions Dex will be in addition to the CSM one, not a replacement.
However that info is well over a year old now so once again, don't shoot the messenger.
Born Again wrote:That's been the rumour for some time now, though I don't recall it having come from Jervis, or any member of the Dev team, I thought a rumour monger on a forum started it. I could be wrong though.
I believe Jervis touched upon the point in one of his Standard Bearer articles, I will see if I can dig out which one, but it was ages ago. He then expanded on the article to somebody that I know, but as I say this was over a year ago now if memory serves.
In terms of the differences, the new Chaos Legions Codex is supposed to represent the Traitor Marines who fled to the Eye of Terror after the Heresy.
They are therfore Chaos Legionnaires rather than Chaos Marines, and are therefore different to the Marines who have since turned their backs on the Emperor and have gone renegade.
They are much older, and closer to their original Legions (World Eaters, Thousand Sons etc) and will have distinct rules to represent this.
In terms of Traitor Guard apparently the idea for a full Traitor Guard Codex was put forward but was rejected.
Rumours say that Traitor Guard will be available as a unit choice in the new Legions Codex (by taking Alpha Legion) but won't be available as a full army.
AFAIK the only current plans are for the Legions Codex, nothing else. The current CSM Codex will remain to represent Traitor Marines rather than Legionnaires.
Summary:
CSM Codex stays viable for Renegade Marines.
Legions Codex will come to cover the older Legions like Death Guard and Thousand Sons INA DDITION to the old CSM Codex.
Traitor Guard idea considered but abandonned, now only a unit for Alpha Guard in Legions Codex.
Kroothawk wrote:Minor update:
theDarkGeneral wrote:Either way, time will tell which of us were correct, but most really has to do with SilverStraight posted, which is "things change" within the process of GW books/codices. Nice to see he also confirmed one of my earlier rumors, with his own "rumor" that it's already been mentioned that the current Chaos Codex will be referred to as "Chaos Renegades" with a White Dwarf update. As for the NEW Chaos Codex, a simple "Chaos: Legions" name should suffice.
Some of my previous info may actually be Apocalypse Formations stuff, that will be released around the same time as the new Codex. Maybe the Brazen Knights/Brass Knights/Blood Knights?
This sounds very exciting:
theDarkgeneral wrote:WHAT I'VE HEARD:
They're expanding the current story line greatly, and including much of the inner alliances, distrust and full fledged war within the 9 Traitor Legions. References to the Black Legion and their "arrogance" will help better paint the picture.
Models...interesting that a previous poster (i forget their name) mentioned Cult Terminator Shoulder pads...because i've recently been told that there is a NEWISH sprue to be released along with several boxed sets of Chaos Marines. The ability to build any Legion out of the basic NEW boxed set along with Legion specific sprue sets which are to include just heads and shoulder pads. I also hear that the Terminator version will also be available, but not sure if they'll come with power armor sprues. Suppose to be Direct Only.
I got a lil' more news on the upcoming Monstrous Creature...can have Marks of the Gods, but not all Legions can take it. Apparently Night Lords and the Alpha Legion prefer more subtle and stealthy approaches.
Death Guard gain a new ability (maybe Chosen squads only ?) that allows their poisoned attacks to ignore Armor Saves on a roll of a '6', much similar to Rending without the extra Armor Pen.
Daemonic Mounts actual are useful now! The undivided version will be "worth while" for the non-Marked Legions. Thousand Sons will be VERY pleased with their new found speed.
Iron Warriors become "siege specialists" which equivalents to Tank Hunters and reducing cover saves on enemy units!
Word Bearers are "zealots" and benefit from Chaplains as well as Turn 1 Daemon Summoning. New Daemonancers models are suppose to be SICK looking, but I believe just unit champ upgrades.
Emperor's Children have a haughtiness to them, but prideful, which may give them counter charge (on top of their already higher Initiative). More heavy weapons upgrades per squad, and their Chosen will be...scary fast!
Alpha Legion apparently have the greatest access to Imperial style vehicles, as well as more of an unlimited Force Org slot selections, next to the Black Legion. Much of their Army will be able to upgrade to "Infiltrators".
Black Legion, aka Sons of Horus, aka Luna Wolves are tentatively stubborn, and have greatest selection amongst the units/vehicles. HOWEVER, they're not fully trusted, not sure how this works out in game terms.
World Eaters truly become the combat monsters they're story lined to be. Marked Dreads, and Daemon Engines will be a prime staple in most Armies...
Rick Blaine wrote:
Models...interesting that a previous poster (i forget their name) mentioned Cult Terminator Shoulder pads...because i've recently been told that there is a NEWISH sprue to be released along with several boxed sets of Chaos Marines. The ability to build any Legion out of the basic NEW boxed set along with Legion specific sprue sets which are to include just heads and shoulder pads. I also hear that the Terminator version will also be available, but not sure if they'll come with power armor sprues. Suppose to be Direct Only.
This makes little sense and goes completely against the trend of the last few years. It does get suggested often enough on the forums by people making uneducated guesses, though.
theDarkGeneral wrote:Rick Blaine: Yeah, i've read that here and there over the past 10+ years...and as mentioned by another member there were sighting of Termie Shoulder pad sprues a few years back at Games Day. I'm not stating this rumor as a guess, just what i've heard. But again, when a large project like this is undertaken, i'm sure it starts with 1,000+ ideas and filters down to 64. Either way, i't wouldn't affect me, or my Legion.
Any idea of a release window? Months? A year? Longer?
Originally it was slated for March release, which made me quite ecstatic cuz that's my BDay month! However, I could see it getting pushed back a few more months depending how the Holiday season goes for GW.
So Alpha Legion can almost choose whatever they like and still make a fluffy list? I like the sound of that.
I wonder if they'll be able to take infiltrating Havocs like in the 3.5 book
Think you've got the idea...imagine more vehicles being able to infiltrate as well????
Let me get this strait. 6th ed is going to see a reduction in cover saves across the board and Iron Warriors get to reduce cover saves some more? Oh how my SM tower of power friend is going to cry when his 3 autocannon dreads only get a 5+ cover save instead of his 3+ he gets now with his master of the forge.
It'll also affect things like the Grey Knights 2+ Cover Save silliness, models that have already been forced to ground, etc. Imagine Relentless Havocs and/or Chosen???
have you heard anything on the war gear load outs/options for any of the cult troops. are we looking at pretty much the same deal as we have now or will there be a few more options like the bezerkers with bolters. mainly will my plague marines get their plague knives back?
i believe the Plague Knives that you mention will be the new poisoned attacks, wounding on a 4+ regardless of toughness, rolls of a '6' ignore Armor Saves. Who gets them? Prob unit champs, and perhaps Chosen/Possessed.
ghost21 wrote:The only thing I've realy heard was a special box of 30k variants.
oh, and a jetbike
30K variants of what? Space Marines? Space Marine vehicles?
1 of each legion
Harry wrote:What I heard was a box with the bits to make different legions.
But I thought this was something to do with Chaos Space Marines and the kit including various heads, spiky bits and icons to make different flavours of Chaos Marines.
It is possible that might be something different and nothing to do with this.
It is also very possible that I am confused about things.
As some of you know I am not really up on the 40K side of things and I tend to hear things by accident and not really a)take much notice. b) know what it means.
Erazmus_M_Wattle wrote:Well all I can say is I heard this from one of my contacts at h.q. It was early days but he'd heard that they were doing a new Chaos Marine plastic kit that had blank pads with little slots in them in which legion icons would be glued. it's not exactly the same information to be fair but it's close.
I could see the plastics being black legion with blisters of finecast shoulder pads for the other legions. It was how alternative chapters/legions were represented in the past. The one thing that lends it credence is the fact that they could possibly put ninety pads in a box, i.e. ten for each legion. That'd be a bit excessive.
StraightSilver wrote:Wyomingfox is correct, from my understanding the Legions Codex will be seperate from the CSM one.
Chaos Legionnaires and Chaos Space Marines are significantly different.
It would be like saying Grey Knights and Ultramarines are the same, which they are not.
The new Codex will focus on the Legions that fled to the Eye of Terror post Heresy.
The Chaos Space Marine Codex was supposed to represent Marines who have turned traitor since the Heresy, or Renegades thrown out of their Chapter / Legion.
Chaos Legionnaires are a different kettle of fish entirely, and their rules will reflect this. The Space marines we know of in the 41st Millennium are not a patch on their brothers 10,000 years before.
The Legions Codex will focus on the Legions and Legionnaires who famously turned Traitor, so expect them to be quite different from your current CSMs
theDarkGeneral wrote:Just one more thing i've heard...
*Chosen Chaos Marines: Definitely getting a lot more upgrade options! They'll get costly quickly depending upon your Legion, and what kind of wargear and armor they take. Jump packs, Terminator Armor, all combis, dual lightning claws, etc. Lots of options, but again, you'll be paying the points for them. AND, not sure on this part, but it was mentioned that specific HQ choices can take a Chosen squad as a retinue/bodyguard to free up their normal Force Org Chart slot selection. That'd be nice!
As I really don't want to reread and quote all of Ghost21's posts in that thread, I'll quote this summary by MaidenManiac on Heresy Online:
-i really really shouldnt but, ive only seen a dreadnaught of the two mentioned (regarding a previous report of new plastic Chaos Dread and Raptors)
-To quickly add. will lesser chaos gods feture. yes n all of the fallen legions will be there
-saw preliminary types for khonate chrono gladiators... and a really bizarre night lord assassin type thing...
-oh im sure if people want a new abaddon.. i saw one but really it isnt much...
-little horus on the other hand... now there's a wow figure
-there was a little heated discussion weather alpha legion should be in this or the traitors dex... there in the legion dex
-the new abaddon as really it just seems bigger n bulkier, like somebody 3d scanned it n made him larger
-the minor chaos gods are already named, its like marks though, no daemons
-i did see a dark mechanicus guy... not sure if he will make it though, a very creepy sculpt based on a john Blanche piece
-this is really something to be taken with a grain of salt there may may be a 30k boxed set at some point, containing one of each of the legions
characters
This all sounds pretty good. Especially the assassin Night Lord.
And make of this what you will:
-oh one last thing its ward
This broke my little heretical heart as I play Chaos. Though Abaddon needs the Draigo/Imotekh treatment to be taken seriously again.
I think that the hardest part of writing a Chaos book is the fact that you've got so many distinct kinds of units that really could get their own book. Daemons, CSM, Dark Mechanicum, and Traitor Guard all make sense as their own books, but even with CSM, why do guys like BA and SW get their own book, but Night Lords or Death Guard or 1K Sons don't really get anything aside from a single unit in a Chaos book?
Then again, I'd like to be able to field a Daemon Prince, a unit of bloodletters, some Emperor's children, and some traitor guard in the same force.
The best way to handle Chaos would be 3 dex's CSM, Daemons, and Lost and the Damned. These 3 factions in turn are unified by a variety of allied forces/combined rules.
Ostrakon wrote:Because why? You'll get coherent rules decently balanced against the other same-edition factions? (GK unfortunately notwithstanding)
But with those rules come with fluff written by someone who knows no restraint nor the meaning of subtlety, and who lacks an ability to convey stories and character without making everything extra-heroic and over the top (ie. 12-year-old fan fiction).
I'll take Wards over the top over heroic fluff any day over Cruddaces collage of fluff copy/pasted from all different editions, with his own injected in for fun, to create a non-workable mess.
Ostrakon wrote:Because why? You'll get coherent rules decently balanced against the other same-edition factions? (GK unfortunately notwithstanding)
But with those rules come with fluff written by someone who knows no restraint nor the meaning of subtlety, and who lacks an ability to convey stories and character without making everything extra-heroic and over the top (ie. 12-year-old fan fiction).
We are talking about 40K, right? When has the 40K universe ever really been a bastion of subtlety? A lot of the crap in 40K sounds like a gang of 12 year olds came up with it.
"Dude, these guys have like 2 hearts and 3 lungs and they have bulletproof armor in their skin!"
"Oh man, great idea! Let's have them spit acid too! And their guns can be fully automatic grenade launchers!"
"Dude, hold on. I think they should have the power to eat their enemies and gain their memories! That'd be so badass!"
"Okay, so the bad guys will be ruled by 4 evil gods, and..."
"One of them should totally put boobs on everything!"
"..."
"... brilliant!"
Ostrakon wrote:We are talking about 40K, right? When has the 40K universe ever really been a bastion of subtlety? A lot of the crap in 40K sounds like a gang of 12 year olds came up with it.
Well ya, but thats like saying they should glorify that silliness.
Ostrakon wrote:"Okay, so the bad guys will be ruled by 4 evil gods, and..."
"One of them should totally put boobs on everything!"
"..."
"..."
" brilliant!"
If that's what you think of the concept of Slaanesh, you don't understand it at all.
Ostrakon wrote:"Okay, so the bad guys will be ruled by 4 evil gods, and..."
"One of them should totally put boobs on everything!"
"..."
"..."
" brilliant!"
If that's what you think of the concept of Slaanesh, you don't understand it at all.
Ostrakon wrote:We are talking about 40K, right? When has the 40K universe ever really been a bastion of subtlety? A lot of the crap in 40K sounds like a gang of 12 year olds came up with it.
Well ya, but thats like saying they should glorify that silliness.
The ostensible purpose of nearly every bit of 40K-related product is to do exactly that - glorify the silliness.
Over the top antics in the fluff sections of the codices, ridiculous SM models with more adornments than a JRPG protagonist, video games that have SM captains tearing through thousand of orks or having commissars casually executing guys to get bonuses to firing rates... Hell fully 2/3rds of BL content does the same thing. The only real exception I can think of are the HH novels.
Obtuseness, n.: ignoring 95% of established portrayals of a fictional setting while acting indignant when new pieces in that setting don't conform to the tone of the extreme minority?
Obtuseness, n.: ignoring 95% of established portrayals of a fictional setting while acting indignant when new pieces in that setting don't conform to the tone of the extreme minority?
yes, exactly!
On topic: doubt these rumors considering that Abbadon is finecast (my heart weeps...) and so are the raptors, yet the post says that they will get new models. So with that said, consider me believing that this should be taken with pepper, not salt.
Obtuseness, n.: ignoring 95% of established portrayals of a fictional setting while acting indignant when new pieces in that setting don't conform to the tone of the extreme minority?
yes, exactly!
On topic: doubt these rumors considering that Abbadon is finecast (my heart weeps...) and so are the raptors, yet the post says that they will get new models. So with that said, consider me believing that this should be taken with pepper, not salt.
It's not inconceivable that either of these would get new sculpts though. They're both pretty outdated.
I'm really disappointed by the Ward rumour. I hope it proves false due to the other Phil Kelly rumour. Ward's bias towards the IoM means that he won't be able to do the faction justice. That and I don't think ever collected or followed Chaos but then again I don't think any of the current codex writers are familiar with Chaos.
Deathly Angel wrote:-little horus on the other hand... now there's a wow figure
Deathly Angel wrote:-little horus on the other hand... now there's a wow figure
What the hell is this quote referring to?
Most likely Horus Aximand is going to be a special character. That was my immediate reaction.
I you haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, Horus Aximand was one of Horus's (Horus the primarch) 'mournival', an informal group of captains to advise him. He was named after Horus, and had the nickname 'Little Horus'.
I'm already really looking forward to Chaos Legions How long after 6th ed comes out will Chaos Legions be out? Didn't really take much notice of the Fantasy release last year...
Those rumours sound cool, but how accurate are rumours this early going to be? The earlier the rumour, the more unlikely it seems.
rodgers37 wrote:I'm already really looking forward to Chaos Legions How long after 6th ed comes out will Chaos Legions be out? Didn't really take much notice of the Fantasy release last year...
Those rumours sound cool, but how accurate are rumours this early going to be? The earlier the rumour, the more unlikely it seems.
Very hit and miss. If most of these rumours are coming from ghost21 then he's got a fairly patchy history of right and wrong. And, as you say, this far in advance a lot will still be subject to change. Miniatures are possibly the most reliable of rumours as they take the longest to prepare, but this early in the game there's no guarantee that they would see the light of day, even if the source turns out to be accurate.
Gaah! Reaction dilemma. On the one hand, 'tis the Ward beast! He'll either toss lazy fluff since he's not writing about his shiny blue/silver EMPRAH stooges, or overcompensate and have the Chaos Legions already out of the Cadian Gate and surrounding the Imperial Palace at their earliest convenience.
On the other, maybe he'll toss out 30-point Obliterators, 18-points berserkers withfree power weapons on everyone and more of those grenades that make the enemy punch his own face that he so likes.
As long as he doesn't mess up Kharn. Please Tzeentch, grant me this one favor.
There is nothing as sad as nerds raging because their precious chaos space marines might become more extreme, over the top and perhaps even fun again. Take them seriously? GTFO. I want every traitor legion to have their own selection of units that come straight out of old-school Saturday morning cartoons, with some Heavy Metal magazine boobs and gore and thrown into the mix. The crazier the better.
Just Dave wrote:I can't say I'm really a fan of the sound of these rumours, nor do I really put much faith in what Ghost21 posts.
I don't like the sound of this new direction personally.
He occasionally gets things right and rumours of Codex: Chaos Legions are starting to gain traction. I think we're probably 6-8 months away from release. As for his predictions on content, this far out, who knows?
It will be interesting to see what releases they do. Can't see them changing the main CSM box, but I think the big four should get their own plastic kits (of couse, the World Eaters already have one).
Ostrakon wrote:Because why? You'll get coherent rules decently balanced against the other same-edition factions? (GK unfortunately notwithstanding)
But with those rules come with fluff written by someone who knows no restraint nor the meaning of subtlety, and who lacks an ability to convey stories and character without making everything extra-heroic and over the top (ie. 12-year-old fan fiction).
I like your formulation, HBMC. Ward's fluff is perhaps even worse than a 12-year-old's fan fiction, because at least 12-year-olds don't use every obscure word from the thesaurus in a shameless and pedantic attempt to spice up mediocre prose.
Not sure I'm in love with the idea of plastic Plaguebearers in the starter set (I've never really liked Nurgle stuff), but I'm sure that I could trade them for other stuff, once it's released.
warpcrafter wrote:There is nothing as sad as nerds raging because their precious chaos space marines might become more extreme, over the top and perhaps even fun again. Take them seriously? GTFO. I want every traitor legion to have their own selection of units that come straight out of old-school Saturday morning cartoons, with some Heavy Metal magazine boobs and gore and thrown into the mix. The crazier the better.
So your saying we need some old school CSM with a healthy dose of Gwar...Im OK with this...
-Loki- wrote:I'll take Wards over the top over heroic fluff any day over Cruddaces collage of fluff copy/pasted from all different editions, with his own injected in for fun, to create a non-workable mess.
Agreed.
Although, in this case it will be "Ward and the design team's over the top anti-hero fluff" rather than heroic fluff.
Maybe they'll get Andy Hoare involved to write the Alpha Legion fluff. Moar mustache twirling!
Ostrakon wrote:I think that the hardest part of writing a Chaos book is the fact that you've got so many distinct kinds of units that really could get their own book. Daemons, CSM, Dark Mechanicum, and Traitor Guard all make sense as their own books, but even with CSM, why do guys like BA and SW get their own book, but Night Lords or Death Guard or 1K Sons don't really get anything aside from a single unit in a Chaos book?
Then again, I'd like to be able to field a Daemon Prince, a unit of bloodletters, some Emperor's children, and some traitor guard in the same force.
I'm thinking what we're going to see is Chaos Legions to represent the major CSM powers, Chaos Renegades to represent basically everything you mentioned above (barring daemons), and then Chaos Daemons to represent the daemonic entities. There will be some overlap I'm sure (some sort of daemon unit in all three books for example), but the three will be largely separate with distinct themes and playstyles. I'm looking forward to it!
Then again, these rumors are coming from Ghost, so they are going to be roughly 20% true, but only because he made some good educated guesses
As for Wardian fluff, I think you guys need to quit over-reacting. His fluff suffers from poor writing/phrasing and over-use of the same old cliche's, but its actually not that bad. If you think for a bit about what some of his 'extreme' bits are aiming for rather than taking everything so literally at face value, they actually make sense.
I posted it to show that Matt Ward isn't involved. The stuff about Kelly is all speculation, but Ward has said he isn't involved, which was the point of my post.
Chaos, circa Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned, was the best thing in W40K. Modern Chaos is, frankly, lacklustre at best and cringeworthy most of the time. Even Tau are more interesting. And Tau are boring.
Any move towards bringing back the level of atmosphere and character that Chaos possessed "back in the day" has got to be a good thing.
There needs to be anarchy, lunacy, an element of genuine insanity, and, most of all, weirdness. Frankly, spikey marines and rhinos with skulls on doesn't cut it.
Moar Skullz? No thanks! Moar Spikez? No thanks!
More twisted limbs? Yes please! More strangled-looking faces? Yes please! More misery and regret? Yes please!
(Incidentally, much of the above also applies for WFB Chaos)
4oursword wrote:On topic: The bezerks must be due a resculpt by now, surely?
Not a chance. Pretty much every army release for the last two years (with the notable exception of Skaven Clanrats and Dark Eldar Kabalites) has kept the current plastics intact. Anyway, the Beserkers are pretty good kit IMHO. 40K plastics (DE aside) tend to age better than those of Fantasy. The Space Marine Tactical squad has essentially remained unchanged since 1998.
-Loki- wrote:I'll take Wards over the top over heroic fluff any day over Cruddaces collage of fluff copy/pasted from all different editions, with his own injected in for fun, to create a non-workable mess.
Agreed.
Although, in this case it will be "Ward and the design team's over the top anti-hero fluff" rather than heroic fluff.
Maybe they'll get Andy Hoare involved to write the Alpha Legion fluff. Moar mustache twirling!
Matt Ward wrote:Just as Kharn was about to decapitate Marneus Calgar, something large and slimy slammed into his back. Kharn whirled around to face a man-sized creature with four limbs and a head reminiscent of spiky pancake. And all around him squamous pods were descending from the sky.
"Khorne damned Nids!" bellowed Khorne's champion. Kharne glanced at Calgar, who had staggered to his feet. "I'd Bro Fist you, but your wearing two powerfists ..."
Matt Ward wrote:"I'd Bro Fist you, but you're wearing two powerfists ..."
Hmm... think of all the everyday activities you can't do whilst wearing a powerfist. What if mid battle you needed to blow your nose, tie your shoes laces or scratch an itch in a delicate area?
This all sounds like complete bunk to me. 30k box set of pre-Heresy characters? Puh-leez. That will never happen. I also don't see lesser Chaos gods ever featuring anywhere ever again.
Brother SRM wrote:30k box set of pre-Heresy characters? Puh-leez. That will never happen.
Maybe not for the 40K game as such, but I could see them doing something similar to the release they did for the Gotrek and Felix novels. A set of collectible Horus Heresy miniatures like Lokken, Tarvitz, Garro and so forth.
Brother SRM wrote:30k box set of pre-Heresy characters? Puh-leez. That will never happen.
Maybe not for the 40K game as such, but I could see them doing something similar to the release they did for the Gotrek and Felix novels. A set of collectible Horus Heresy miniatures like Lokken, Tarvitz, Garro and so forth.
Those were Black Library releases if I recall. When was the last time BL had any minis released at all?
warpcrafter wrote:There is nothing as sad as nerds raging because their precious chaos space marines might become more extreme, over the top and perhaps even fun again. Take them seriously? GTFO. I want every traitor legion to have their own selection of units that come straight out of old-school Saturday morning cartoons, with some Heavy Metal magazine boobs and gore and thrown into the mix. The crazier the better.
I don't really care who writes the next CSM codex, as long as all the Legions aren't confined to the same book again. Having so many fluffy units crammed into one codex is too much, it's time to start branching out like the regular SM chapters.
CpatTom wrote:Hopefully the rumored hardback dex's will have room for them to successfully house multiple fluffy units.
I don't think the hardback fantasy books are that much bigger than the softcover books. And I hope they don't start doing 40k hard covers. The softcover books are expensive enough.
Obtuseness, n.: ignoring 95% of established portrayals of a fictional setting while acting indignant when new pieces in that setting don't conform to the tone of the extreme minority?
yes, exactly!
On topic: doubt these rumors considering that Abbadon is finecast (my heart weeps...) and so are the raptors, yet the post says that they will get new models. So with that said, consider me believing that this should be taken with pepper, not salt.
It's not inconceivable that either of these would get new sculpts though. They're both pretty outdated.
yeah I guess. Either way, all we can do is pray to the dark gods...Luckily, we have lord zhufor if one is willing to pay for forgeworld and doesn't mind proxying.
The hardback covered books are well worth the price difference, my question is are they up to the wear and tear a codex/army book takes and I haven't had a main army of mine get a hard back, so I am not sure. I think a solution for this is to make a digital copy come with the hard back doing two things:
A) Justify price
B) Reduce wear on fairly well built and pretty books
Most everyone has a phone or a tablet at this point that can handle PDF's, maybe they will get into this and make those with some nose for tech. not criminals since they are prolly downloading them as well as buying them. Tamurkhan is one of the nicest books I have seen in a VERY long time from ANY publisher, GW can do the quality. The question in my head is why should I carry them which beats the hell outta them? I also think you can easily put EVERY book ever made by GW on said devices and I will point out there is a GW employee of fair size who has exactly that, so not only can it be done, but it is being done by GW right now.
Looking forward to seeing the Tamurkhan book in the flesh... I doubt new 40k dexes will be anything like that, though- even if they do go to hardback like fantasy.
I think the rumors sound fun. I'm just happy that the rumored legion specific units aren't just special versions of existing units, i.e. "_____ Terminators," that would have deffinitely made it a wasted opportunity.
As for Ward writing it, I don't think I care... at this point, the only fluff that "counts" for me is the fluff in my head.
Naming lesser chaos gods seems interesting. My guess they're just doing this to give the "undivided" legions more "umph"; by putting names to their theological stances and then putting more in the way of attributes to those names, GW can better characterise those legions.
Finally. I haven't been this psyched for a new Codex since 4th edition Space Orks.
I'd love to see some plastic Pleaguebearers, I need a 5th unit anyway. It'll be interesting to see how they handle cult troops this time around. The thing that bothered me most about the current book is, that I can have Pleaguemarines, but only Terminators or Havovs with T5 and now further special rules.
If Phil's writing the book, expect it to be nowhere near as good as Wolves or Dark Eldar.
Kelly has no vested interest in Chaos. He only does well on the armies he plays/collects, and if he's working on Chaos he'd likely halfarse it so he can get to working on Sisters faster.
Sasori wrote:I'm betting Phil writes this book, and not Ward.
Phil's more than evil enough that's for sure... I mean, when you slam 2 hive tyrants into a land raider, wait untill your very last roll to get a pen and then explode it while laughing manically the whole time?!! He's definately chaotic enough for th job!
I hope he gets this project, but then isn't he also rummored to be working on a forth-coming Black Templar 'dex too?
As for the hard cover deal, it's so worth it! I hate the current 'dexes, feels like I'm trying to build an army list with a dusty old antique... If I try to open the pages up more than halfway, the binding cracks and then the back pages will come loose soon after. The hardbacks are great - I can leave them comfortably open on the desk/table and the binds hold up solidly. I'd rather pay $50 once than have to pay $35 + spiral binding cost at some Buisness Depot store... (which will still fall apart if you're not carefull!)
I'm hoping GW can give us a balanced version of the 3.5 chaos codex, that can still follow their current 'simplified/streamlined' approch. I loved that book so much, but it was highly abusable... (slaanesh siren daemon bomb = win!)
warpcrafter wrote:There is nothing as sad as nerds raging because their precious chaos space marines might become more extreme, over the top and perhaps even fun again. Take them seriously? GTFO. I want every traitor legion to have their own selection of units that come straight out of old-school Saturday morning cartoons, with some Heavy Metal magazine boobs and gore and thrown into the mix. The crazier the better.
Saturday Morning Cartoons? Sir, you offend me! I want someone to unlock the dramatic tragedy of Chaos! The intricate push and pull of moral nuance, all translated onto the board. Every unit fluff entry its own coda of dark poetry, maybe done in iambic pentameter. Maybe a lore shift away from the four gods and more geared towars Eris' discordianism, or pursuing an Ayn Rand theme of all-consuming self-interest (maybe having proletarian IG as Favored Enemy?). It should have its release covered with silent awe by the New Yorker magazine, and maybe be made into a movie by Lars von Trier.
Also, I can think of -several- things sadder than that. I mean, some other studio dorks almost ripped me off for $60 for a FPS map expansion disguised as a game and still made a cool 400 million at it!
I offer this dramatic reenactment of a scene from The Wire to illustrate:
Me: You know why I respect you, GW?
GW: Why?
Me: It's not because you're good game development, because screw that, alright?
GW: So...what then.
Me: It's because, when the time came for you to screw me...you were very gentle.
GW: That's right. Because I knew it was your first time.
Me: I mean, you could have bent me over the board and just pounded me right there sending dice all over the place, but you were very gentle.
GW: I know. I wanted to make it special for you.
Me: It was, man. It really was.
Kanluwen wrote:If Phil's writing the book, expect it to be nowhere near as good as Wolves or Dark Eldar.
Kelly has no vested interest in Chaos. He only does well on the armies he plays/collects, and if he's working on Chaos he'd likely halfarse it so he can get to working on Sisters faster.
Do any of the current Authors have a vested interest in Chaos? I'm pretty sure Ward has stated that he doesn't like them, and if Phil doesn't like them that would only leave Cruddance....
Kanluwen wrote:If Phil's writing the book, expect it to be nowhere near as good as Wolves or Dark Eldar.
Kelly has no vested interest in Chaos. He only does well on the armies he plays/collects, and if he's working on Chaos he'd likely halfarse it so he can get to working on Sisters faster.
Sephyr wrote:
I offer this dramatic reenactment of a scene from The Wire to illustrate
Sephyr, you're a legend lmao.
I just want some flavour back in our Codex, none of this generic demon group all legions into the same pile bs. Legions mean Legions, Veterens from the First Founding, hardened by 10,000 years of hatred. Not pussy spiky marines. GAH!
Zerkers and the Dread need a model update most urgently imo. The FW Zerkers are nice, but they use the static poses of the CSM and look weird that way.
Kanluwen wrote:If Phil's writing the book, expect it to be nowhere near as good as Wolves or Dark Eldar.
Kelly has no vested interest in Chaos. He only does well on the armies he plays/collects, and if he's working on Chaos he'd likely halfarse it so he can get to working on Sisters faster.
And the last bad codex by Kelly was?
Any one of Cruddace's, as Kelly is supposed to be in charge of reviewing Cruddace's work seeing as how he's relatively new.
Ward's been with the company since 2005ish, most of which was spent working directly for Andy Chambers and Jervis Johnson.
Kanluwen wrote:If Phil's writing the book, expect it to be nowhere near as good as Wolves or Dark Eldar.
Kelly has no vested interest in Chaos. He only does well on the armies he plays/collects, and if he's working on Chaos he'd likely halfarse it so he can get to working on Sisters faster.
And the last bad codex by Kelly was?
Space Wolves actually. Many low costed units that were too effective.
I'm not sure how things were on the fluff side, but I doubt I would have liked it anyway, don't particularly care for SW at all.
I just want the codex to be good, thats all. Not filled with silly, over the top fluff and not marred by half godly units and half crap units. Is that too much to ask?
Kanluwen wrote:Any one of Cruddace's, as Kelly is supposed to be in charge of reviewing Cruddace's work seeing as how he's relatively new.
Again I ask, what was the last bad codex Kelly sealed with his name? I'm not particularity interested in his supposed babysitting of Cruddance.
Then as Asuron said, Space Wolves.
It's basically a Cruddace book: several "no brainer" units paired with some complete "why in the world would anyone ever take these except to hinder themselves?" units.
HMV wrote:Again I ask, what was the last bad codex Kelly sealed with his name? I'm not particularity interested in his supposed babysitting of Cruddance.
Then as Asuron said, Space Wolves.
QFT. I know this is the internet but have people already forgotten the intense complaining about this book? And unlike with Ward's books, which only really get flak for the fiction, the complaints in this case were about rules -- although, why everyone hates "blood" being in the title for every unit when it comes to BA and says boo about "wolf" being in the title of everything for the SW book shows just how popular it is to hate on Ward. Furthermore, the complaints about Kelley's book have consistently shown up ever since the book was released all the way up to today. Ward's books are usually criticized only until the next one comes out -- no one talked about BA/Necron fistbump after they could sink their teeth into Draigo. I'm sure the internet is already a-bristle chewing on some new bone out of C:N, so we won't hear much about Draigo anymore. The SW book was not just hammy when it comes to the fluff (it was) but also "broken" in a lot of people's minds -- and that opinion has proven very sustainable.
Anyway, I'm glad Ward is writing the Legions book. The CSM need to some high-wattage OTT badassery (especially Abaddon) and Ward is just the guy to give them their dues.
While I haven't played 40k in forever and from what I have read of Ward's work I am not impressed...he at least has been adding to, and maybe even progressing, the overall story of 40k.
One of the bigger disappoints for me when I would buy a new rule book.codex was that I never saw anything that added to the 40k universe. If there was, it was so little and so vague it was like getting to smell dinner but never eat any of it.
My hope is that with the stuff Ward is writing it provokes someone to stand up from within the ranks of GW and start writing, maybe even better stuff, for the universe as well.
I am always interested in a new codex and look forward to this one.
Chaos Gods, other then the ones we know of in 40k, cool!
Maybe the warp will manifest here on terra and matt ward will be dragged away to some teletubby hell where he can languish for all of eternity. That or GW will fire him before he can do irrepairable damage to the chaos following.
Nothing Matt ward can do for chaos is bound to be good. Next thing you know, nurgle will be brofisting with grey knights after they work together to fight off a tyranid invasion. Khorn will help the sisters raise a nunnery of sick and weary orphans. gack. please dont let it be matt ward.
ProtoClone wrote:Chaos Gods, other then the ones we know of in 40k, cool!
Strangely, this is what I am most nervous about. If I were a betting man, I'd bet this will be the eventual source of the standard Ward-joke for this book.
ProtoClone wrote:Chaos Gods, other then the ones we know of in 40k, cool!
Strangely, this is what I am most nervous about. If I were a betting man, I'd bet this will be the eventual source of the standard Ward-joke for this book.
I think that is the part I am waiting for the most...what hilarity that will come from Ward's writing.
Bringing Malal back is well and good, but it actually has to make sense. Of the original legions, are any of them really the embodiement of Malal (aka Malice)?-I don't think so. To put Malal back in through a Chaos Legion book would end up with something contrived that would have rewritten Malal's nature to such a degree that it would be Malal only in name. I'm inclined to believe that if there is a place for a Champion-centric deity of chaos' self-destructive tendency it would make more sense in the context of Chaos Renegade army than a Chaos Legion army.
He will be back and Ward will let you know Malal has been hug-fighting Cegorach in a webway seperated from the others. After neither could win the hug-fight, many bro-fists were given to each other. They ate some C'tan and attacked the Garden of Nurgle to free Isha and star in a new sitcom called 2 Gods, a Goddess, and a Garden. However FOX networks put it in a crappy timeslot on Friday nights and it got cancelled.
aka_mythos wrote:Bringing Malal back is well and good, but it actually has to make sense. Of the original legions, are any of them really the embodiement of Malal (aka Malice)?-I don't think so. To put Malal back in through a Chaos Legion book would end up with something contrived that would have rewritten Malal's nature to such a degree that it would be Malal only in name. I'm inclined to believe that if there is a place for a Champion-centric deity of chaos' self-destructive tendency it would make more sense in the context of Chaos Renegade army than a Chaos Legion army.
Not an original Legion, but there was the Sons of Malice who showed up in the 3.5 Chaos Absurdity as a quartered black & white paint scheme...
He will be back and Ward will let you know Malal has been hug-fighting Cegorach in a webway seperated from the others. After neither could win the hug-fight, many bro-fists were given to each other. They ate some C'tan and attacked the Garden of Nurgle to free Isha and star in a new sitcom called 2 Gods, a Goddess, and a Garden. However FOX networks put it in a crappy timeslot on Friday nights and it got cancelled.
Hyperbole aside... all the "I'm so cute look at me mock Ward's writing..." its just trite.
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Dysartes wrote:Not an original Legion, but there was the Sons of Malice who showed up in the 3.5 Chaos Absurdity as a quartered black & white paint scheme...
Hence why I said:
ME wrote:I'm inclined to believe that if there is a place for a Champion-centric deity of chaos' self-destructive tendency it would make more sense in the context of Chaos Renegade army than a Chaos Legion army.
I obviously believe there is a place for them, just not in a book specifically aimed at the original Legions.
Kanluwen wrote:If Phil's writing the book, expect it to be nowhere near as good as Wolves or Dark Eldar.
Kelly has no vested interest in Chaos. He only does well on the armies he plays/collects, and if he's working on Chaos he'd likely halfarse it so he can get to working on Sisters faster.
Do any of the current Authors have a vested interest in Chaos? I'm pretty sure Ward has stated that he doesn't like them, and if Phil doesn't like them that would only leave Cruddance....
Considering he's written 2 chaos books in fantasy & plays a WoC army, I'd say Kelly has a vested intrest in the evil ones...
And let's be fair, SW's have always been a problem child no matter who's written their book. It's simply the side effect of them being loyalists (and thus getting all the imperial bonuses), who fight more like chaos marines. (because they still organise & fight similar to legions of old, "as Russ intended".)
If Phil's getting the chaos marines, then it will at least have decent background without being obnoxiously OTT, and hopefully he'll be able to give them the same kind of internal & external balance as DE got.
I'd rather have anyone other than Ward, who'd be more than likely to give us laughably painfull fluff and rules that would make most opponents groan.
provided they keep the gods seperate if they hate each other in this one... Nurgle/slanesh, Khorne/Tzeentch, malal&necoho/everyone else I'll be happy : )
the Kumbaya (sp?) that is chaos now has me annoyed.
It'd be really cool to see Night Lords with their own section too...
I have to say I am really optomistic with this dex
While I'm excited for a new 'dex, what I'm most excited for is new models.
Plastic Obliterators that you can actually put together would be nice, as would new chaos dreadnought's.
sennacherib wrote:Maybe the warp will manifest here on terra and matt ward will be dragged away to some teletubby hell where he can languish for all of eternity. That or GW will fire him before he can do irrepairable damage to the chaos following.
Nothing Matt ward can do for chaos is bound to be good. Next thing you know, nurgle will be brofisting with grey knights after they work together to fight off a tyranid invasion. Khorn will help the sisters raise a nunnery of sick and weary orphans. gack. please dont let it be matt ward.
While the whole necron alliance with the Blood Angels was not in line with the 3rd edition fluff of a dozen years ago, it certainly is now that necrons have individual dynasties with separate motives/goals. While I agree that some of his ideas are quite Mary-Sue-ish and over the top, he doesn't deserve the bile constantly being spewed at him. People, he wrote some very short stories about toy soldiers that you didn't like but was prophetically consistent with the evolving fluff... he didn't molest your dog with a baseball bat.
Probably too much to ask for, but I hope there are entries for Plague zombies and chaos cultists, and I'm not saying that because I have a bundle of empire swordsmen lying around!
I feel that people have missed an important point regarding any new CSM - will it be chaos enough. i.e will they look like they've been stuck in the warp for centuries as opposed to being normal marines with some spikes (chaos predator kit and red corsairs are a prime example of this)
Finally, the great thing about chaos is that old models I bought years ago can still be used - It all add to the wierdness of the army!
Flash, I'm old school and I remember the days when GW would consider it a sacred duty to cram everything into 1 book instead of milking it with 3 books. Those were the days.
all these rumors are why im hesident at buying a current codex if its going to be out of date in a short time, and thats why im buying all chaos models as i can, because they are always going to be usable no matter what, except cypher i wonder why they still sell him.
That's effectively what they did with the current chaos marine codex and it didn't turn out exactly as we all expected. If loyal marines can have a half dozen codicies to cover their various flavors (which in my opinion is too much), chaos marines can have two full size 5th/6th edition codicies with the number of fluff and units both entail.
I could see something being done in the rules for at least with Malal. Something much like "Mark of the Wulfin", but, "Mark of Malal". Put the mark on a model, non vehicle, and stay out of it's LoS. ...Just an idea.
aka_mythos wrote:Hyperbole aside... all the "I'm so cute look at me mock Ward's writing..." its just trite.
Hyperbole aside... all the "I'm so smart look at me trying to be pedantic..." is just trite.
That doesn't make sense. I used no hyperbole. If stating that I'm being frustrated that people take a silly piece of fluff and blow it out proportions is trite... you and the people who perpetuate these outlandish interpretations only have yourselves to blame.
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ProtoClone wrote:I could see something being done in the rules for at least with Malal. Something much like "Mark of the Wulfin", but, "Mark of Malal". Put the mark on a model, non vehicle, and stay out of it's LoS. ...Just an idea.
I don't think it would do the concept justice. I think there are better places for it.
ProtoClone wrote:I could see something being done in the rules for at least with Malal. Something much like "Mark of the Wulfin", but, "Mark of Malal". Put the mark on a model, non vehicle, and stay out of it's LoS. ...Just an idea.
I don't think it would do the concept justice. I think there are better places for it.
What if there is a random chance for it, the bearer of the mark, to explode in a flurry of skulls, blood and kittens?
So it would be:
roll 1d6. On a 2+, it explodes in a flurry of skulls, blood and kittens.
I don't care what's in a Legions book, as long as I can run a "mono-god" force and be "competitive".
And....since Blood Angels get all the "blood" weapons, does that mean Khorne will have "Skull" weapons?
Dreadnoughts with "Skullfists" or "Skull Talons"?
Berzerkers with "Skull Axes"!!!!
Bolters with "Skull Shard" ammo?!?!?
Chaos Hell Talon with "SKULL STRIKE MISSILES"??!?!??!?!
SKULL POWER/SAGAS!
frgsinwntr wrote:provided they keep the gods seperate if they hate each other in this one... Nurgle/slanesh, Khorne/Tzeentch, malal&necoho/everyone else I'll be happy : )
the Kumbaya (sp?) that is chaos now has me annoyed.
It'd be really cool to see Night Lords with their own section too...
I have to say I am really optomistic with this dex
its nurgle vs tzeentch and khorne versus slaanesh
Unless they change the original fluff from Slaves to Darkness and Legions of the Damned.
Never ending Stagnation, vs ever ending change brutal valor and single committment, versus hedonism and excess
I do believe they already changed it to Khorne vs Tzeentch and Slaanesh vs Nurge quite a while ago. Might have been an excuse for giving Khorne all that anitmagic stuff, though I could never get why Slaanesh and Nurge didn't like each other.
HMV wrote:Again I ask, what was the last bad codex Kelly sealed with his name? I'm not particularity interested in his supposed babysitting of Cruddance.
Then as Asuron said, Space Wolves.
QFT. I know this is the internet but have people already forgotten the intense complaining about this book? And unlike with Ward's books, which only really get flak for the fiction, the complaints in this case were about rules -- although, why everyone hates "blood" being in the title for every unit when it comes to BA and says boo about "wolf" being in the title of everything for the SW book shows just how popular it is to hate on Ward. Furthermore, the complaints about Kelley's book have consistently shown up ever since the book was released all the way up to today. Ward's books are usually criticized only until the next one comes out -- no one talked about BA/Necron fistbump after they could sink their teeth into Draigo. I'm sure the internet is already a-bristle chewing on some new bone out of C:N, so we won't hear much about Draigo anymore. The SW book was not just hammy when it comes to the fluff (it was) but also "broken" in a lot of people's minds -- and that opinion has proven very sustainable.
I think the Necron fluff is pretty solid. Not that people won't create complete misrepresentations or outright lies in order to have something to complain about.
The rumors sound good to me. From Chaos Legions to Traitors/Renegades to a 30K collectible box set...it kinda seems like they've been reading gorgon's message board posts over the past couple of years.
whitedragon wrote:I don't care what's in a Legions book, as long as I can run a "mono-god" force and be "competitive".
And....since Blood Angels get all the "blood" weapons, does that mean Khorne will have "Skull" weapons?
Dreadnoughts with "Skullfists" or "Skull Talons"?
Berzerkers with "Skull Axes"!!!!
Bolters with "Skull Shard" ammo?!?!?
Chaos Hell Talon with "SKULL STRIKE MISSILES"??!?!??!?!
SKULL POWER/SAGAS!
His Master's Voice wrote:I do believe they already changed it to Khorne vs Tzeentch and Slaanesh vs Nurge quite a while ago. Might have been an excuse for giving Khorne all that anitmagic stuff, though I could never get why Slaanesh and Nurge didn't like each other.
The nipple clamps won't hold because of all the parts falling off.
In Daemons and Last Codex it is Khorne/Slaanesh and Nurgle/Tzneetch.
This is also related to the legions. Emperors Children and World Eaters have hatred for each other that has often seen them do battle (Kharn's story about why he is the betrayer).
You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.
Space Wolves lost that too.
Well, who has a codex specific for their own legion, and who doesn't? Iron warriors had a few more rules to add a bit of flavour, space wolves had, and now have more. Either way, this might be solved with a new codex, so here's to hoping!
You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.
Space Wolves lost that too.
Well, who has a codex specific for their own legion, and who doesn't? Iron warriors had a few more rules to add a bit of flavour, space wolves had, and now have more. Either way, this might be solved with a new codex, so here's to hoping!
Um... space wolves have had their own independent codex since 2nd edition whereas Iron Warriors never had one so the comparison isn't really valid as you never "lost" a full codex. The Iron Warriors lost a page or two of special rules which could easily be done with a single special character warsmith ala the ICs in the marine codex. And, to be honest, you really only lost the ability to take 4 heavies including a basilisk as that is the only thing I can remember anyone ever taking. If that is all you want to do, play the tyrant's list from the badab books until the legion book comes out next year.
warboss wrote: While the whole necron alliance with the Blood Angels was not in line with the 3rd edition fluff of a dozen years ago, it certainly is now that necrons have individual dynasties with separate motives/goals. While I agree that some of his ideas are quite Mary-Sue-ish and over the top, he doesn't deserve the bile constantly being spewed at him. People, he wrote some very short stories about toy soldiers that you didn't like but was prophetically consistent with the evolving fluff... he didn't molest your dog with a baseball bat.
Do you know my dog. No i didnt think so. Its quite possible that he molested my dog and you dont know. Did you ever think of that?
and besides, judging from the fluff he writes i would have to say that i wouldnt put it past him since the fluff he wrote for the crons amounts to a big pile of dog poop if you ask me (which you didnt, but there it is) harumph.
You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.
Space Wolves lost that too.
Are you joking me? Nearly everything that was iconic for the Iron Warriors aside from Obliterators and the option to take Vindicators has been removed, and those two options have been genericized. Space Wolves, on the other hand, got a new Codex with all kinds of unique and special options. Overall, it's fair to say that Space Wolves got their army substantially improved, with new fluff, new models, and new options, while Iron Warriors were deemphasized in the fluff, didn't get new models, and overall lost options.
For Iron Warriors, give us Warsmith Honsou as a named character! Why? Well, it'll make Ward cry since Honsou not only fustigated the realm of Ultramar, but he escaped with his life to boot!
Either that or else just add a generic 'warsmith' as an HQ that functions a bit like a master of the forge? Options like a servo arm, conversion beamer or other wacky techno-device, ability to bolster a piece of terrain... IW's don't need to get a basilisk back, but at least give them their iconic character?!
sennacherib wrote:I think you are safe to say that the new SW codex is more than improved. Its OP in the opinons of many.
It is improved over the previous one simply because that one was 2 editions old but it's actually probably less powerful for its edition than the previous one. When the 3rd edition codex came out, it was incredibly overpowered compared to other stuff out at the time (and only got the title taken away when the chaos marine 3rd edition redo came out). Space wolves back then had hidden powerfists (during the days when every sergeant could be singled out like an IC can now whereas their special weapons weren't on characters)... to add insult to injury, the same gear that was more effective was almost half the price others paid for the same thing with less utility. In addition, the whole army had counterattack in the days when moving 6" to get into base to base when someone charged YOU didn't exist as a general rule. The current issue of cheap long fangs and grey hunters is nothing compared to those days. They were basically on par with other marines in 4th edition and now are in the top two again for 5th. Someone in GWHQ has a serious love for the sons of russ...
aka_mythos wrote:Hyperbole aside... all the "I'm so cute look at me mock Ward's writing..." its just trite.
Hyperbole aside... all the "I'm so smart look at me trying to be pedantic..." is just trite.
Not as trite as "Hurr Durr Mock Matt Ward Hurrrr!"
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warboss wrote:
sennacherib wrote:I think you are safe to say that the new SW codex is more than improved. Its OP in the opinons of many.
It is improved over the previous one simply because that one was 2 editions old but it's actually probably less powerful for its edition than the previous one. When the 3rd edition codex came out, it was incredibly overpowered compared to other stuff out at the time (and only got the title taken away when the chaos marine 3rd edition redo came out). Space wolves back then had hidden powerfists (during the days when every sergeant could be singled out like an IC can now whereas their special weapons weren't on characters)... to add insult to injury, the same gear that was more effective was almost half the price others paid for the same thing with less utility. In addition, the whole army had counterattack in the days when moving 6" to get into base to base when someone charged YOU didn't exist as a general rule. The current issue of cheap long fangs and grey hunters is nothing compared to those days. They were basically on par with other marines in 4th edition and now are in the top two again for 5th. Someone in GWHQ has a serious love for the sons of russ...
Fetterkey wrote:
Are you joking me? Nearly everything that was iconic for the Iron Warriors aside from Obliterators and the option to take Vindicators has been removed, and those two options have been genericized. Space Wolves, on the other hand, got a new Codex with all kinds of unique and special options. Overall, it's fair to say that Space Wolves got their army substantially improved, with new fluff, new models, and new options, while Iron Warriors were deemphasized in the fluff, didn't get new models, and overall lost options.
What else was iconic for Iron Warriors in the old codex? Basilisks and Warsmiths? They had less emphasis compared to last time, but the last codex author was an admitted Iron Warriors fanboy. I'd love to see Warsmiths have rules again (I just run mine as a lord with lightning claws) but I don't want to see Basilisks come back. It made no sense. Also, Space Wolves are an entire Codex. Iron Warriors were just a few options in the CSM dex. I'm saying this as someone who enjoys playing my Iron Warriors significantly more than my Space Wolves.
You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.
Space Wolves lost that too.
Well, who has a codex specific for their own legion, and who doesn't? Iron warriors had a few more rules to add a bit of flavour, space wolves had, and now have more. Either way, this might be solved with a new codex, so here's to hoping!
Um... space wolves have had their own independent codex since 2nd edition whereas Iron Warriors never had one so the comparison isn't really valid as you never "lost" a full codex. The Iron Warriors lost a page or two of special rules which could easily be done with a single special character warsmith ala the ICs in the marine codex. And, to be honest, you really only lost the ability to take 4 heavies including a basilisk as that is the only thing I can remember anyone ever taking. If that is all you want to do, play the tyrant's list from the badab books until the legion book comes out next year.
What a load of wash. Such irrational, illogical nonsense right here.
Sorry, I want to play IW in tournaments-so no thanks.
How long SW have had a codex is irrelevant to traitor chapters getting the same treatment. It's absurd for you to think otherwise, and even chastise an individual for wanting one.
Crayola wrote:
What a load of wash. Such irrational, illogical nonsense right here.
Sorry, I want to play IW in tournaments-so no thanks.
How long SW have had a codex is irrelevant to traitor chapters getting the same treatment. It's absurd for you to think otherwise, and even chastise an individual for wanting one.
What's absurd and irrational is using the Space Wolves as some sort of justification for IW absolutely needing something similar (which is what I was responding to). You can do everything Iron Warrior-ish that you did before EXCEPT taking a basilisk and/or a 4th heavy. Other than that, you can use your army as is in tournaments and no one is stopping you except YOU. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that legions should get a page or two of special rules each (like chapters get via IC's)... I just don't think it deserves the level of whining that it currently gets. It's not like Chaos got squatted or the legions lost individual codices.
Fetterkey wrote:
I'd love to see Warsmiths have rules again (I just run mine as a lord with lightning claws) but I don't want to see Basilisks come back. It made no sense. Also, Space Wolves are an entire Codex. Iron Warriors were just a few options in the CSM dex. I'm saying this as someone who enjoys playing my Iron Warriors significantly more than my Space Wolves.
Why no Basilisks? I assume you dont know the history of IW then?
Crayola wrote:
What a load of wash. Such irrational, illogical nonsense right here.
Sorry, I want to play IW in tournaments-so no thanks.
How long SW have had a codex is irrelevant to traitor chapters getting the same treatment. It's absurd for you to think otherwise, and even chastise an individual for wanting one.
What's absurd and irrational is using the Space Wolves as some sort of justification for IW absolutely needing something similar (which is what I was responding to). You can do everything Iron Warrior-ish that you did before EXCEPT taking a basilisk and/or a 4th heavy. Other than that, you can use your army as is in tournaments and no one is stopping you except YOU. Don't get me wrong, I do agree that legions should get a page or two of special rules each (like chapters get via IC's)... I just don't think it deserves the level of whining that it currently gets. It's not like Chaos got squatted or the legions lost individual codices.
That fourth heavy is what dictates Iron Warriors. It's what dictates a SIEGE army. There are no fast attacks, no elites that resemble any definition of the Iron Warriors.
Chaos didn't get squatted? Did you read the fourth edition codex? Nothing in it is chaosy except, I forget the dakka reviewer, MORE SPIKY BITS.
I just recently came back from 3rd edition (early) and it's one of the worst codexes I have ever seen printed. There is no character, no distinction...nothing. It's words vomited on a page accidentally.
It does deserve the level of whining it has gotten, and justifiably so-it is THE antithesis of the Space Marines, their polar opposite. Hell, 4th edition CSM don't even have the same luxuries as 4th edition SM (or even equivalent). The Iron Warriors are the pre-eminent definition of siege warriors yet there is NOTHING in the CSM codex that can even closely resemble this type of warfare.
SM, Grey Knights (let's face it, they're SM), DA, SW and BA yet there is ONE, count it-ONE CSM codex, yet not one traitor legion has received a codex.
Iron warriors use hordes of cultists as cannon fodder. Where are the cultists?
For that matter how do you make an alpha legion or world bearers list with no cultists?
Iron warriors don't need 4 hs slots, but the basilisk is an iconic iw vehicle. Why is everybody getting their panties in a bind about the possibility of iw having a basilisk? IG doesn't even tend to use basilisks anymore, and its not like iw players are asking for vendettas and manticores. Given the popularity of hydras/manticores in ig giving iw back their basilisks is about the only way gw will sell more basilisks.
You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.
Space Wolves lost that too.
Well, who has a codex specific for their own legion, and who doesn't? Iron warriors had a few more rules to add a bit of flavour, space wolves had, and now have more. Either way, this might be solved with a new codex, so here's to hoping!
Um... space wolves have had their own independent codex since 2nd edition whereas Iron Warriors never had one so the comparison isn't really valid as you never "lost" a full codex. The Iron Warriors lost a page or two of special rules which could easily be done with a single special character warsmith ala the ICs in the marine codex. And, to be honest, you really only lost the ability to take 4 heavies including a basilisk as that is the only thing I can remember anyone ever taking. If that is all you want to do, play the tyrant's list from the badab books until the legion book comes out next year.
What a load of wash. Such irrational, illogical nonsense right here.
Sorry, I want to play IW in tournaments-so no thanks.
How long SW have had a codex is irrelevant to traitor chapters getting the same treatment. It's absurd for you to think otherwise, and even chastise an individual for wanting one.
Iron Warriors aren't a real chapter. There someone had to say it. There a bunch of genetic meglomaniacs that were giant suits of armor, steal vehicles, and kick down the emperors sand castles.
fire4effekt wrote:Iron Warriors aren't a real chapter. There someone had to say it. There a bunch of genetic meglomaniacs that were giant suits of armor, steal vehicles, and kick down the emperors sand castles.
Crayola wrote:Chaos didn't get squatted? Did you read the fourth edition codex? Nothing in it is chaosy except, I forget the dakka reviewer, MORE SPIKY BITS.
I just recently came back from 3rd edition (early) and it's one of the worst codexes I have ever seen printed. There is no character, no distinction...nothing. It's words vomited on a page accidentally.
At this point I'm so desperate for something not bland that I don't care who writes it. See what you have done to me GW, lowering my standards and expectations!
schadenfreude wrote:
Iron warriors use hordes of cultists as cannon fodder. Where are the cultists?
For that matter how do you make an alpha legion or world bearers list with no cultists?
Iron warriors don't need 4 hs slots, but the basilisk is an iconic iw vehicle. Why is everybody getting their panties in a bind about the possibility of iw having a basilisk? IG doesn't even tend to use basilisks anymore, and its not like iw players are asking for vendettas and manticores. Given the popularity of hydras/manticores in ig giving iw back their basilisks is about the only way gw will sell more basilisks.
Because if Chaos has a good codex, all the Little Billies playing Marines won't be able to beat them. The bad guys CAN. NOT. WIN.
That fourth heavy is what dictates Iron Warriors. It's what dictates a SIEGE army. There are no fast attacks, no elites that resemble any definition of the Iron Warriors.
Chaos didn't get squatted? Did you read the fourth edition codex? Nothing in it is chaosy except, I forget the dakka reviewer, MORE SPIKY BITS.
I just recently came back from 3rd edition (early) and it's one of the worst codexes I have ever seen printed. There is no character, no distinction...nothing. It's words vomited on a page accidentally.
You apparently have no idea what the slang term of "squatted" means... it means that the figs used for majority of the army you play can no longer be used WYSIWIG at all. If GW had gotten rid of chaos marines completely THEN your Iron Warriors would have been squatted. You simply got hit hard with the bland nerf bat which is no where near the same thing. There is a big difference as you CAN still play your chaos marines (albeit in a more vanilla form) and choose not to whereas squat players must resort to "counts as" and opponent's permission to simply use their figs. The closest chaos comes to the correct definition of this is the Latd armies that have to be seriously squinted at to be played as IG.
As for the siege army, you still have multiple ordnance choices to select for your three heavies. Iron Warriors lost a single heavy support option and a 1/4 of the heavy slots.. that's it. Were there any previous fast attacks or elites that "resemble any definition of the Iron Warriors"? If so, what were they? If not, then you didn't actually lose anything there; you simply didn't gain anything. I'm not trying to hold the current chaos codex up on some pedastal but it simply isn't as bad as you're making it out to be. It's just popular to rip on it as well as Matt Ward. Also, if you're really coming back from early 3rd edition then this codex is a huge improvement over the chaos one that you're used to (the super thin no-fluff even blander initial 3rd edition chaos codex). That codex didn't even have Iron Warriors in it either so you're not losing anything... unless you mean the codex that you didn't actually use that came out in between that was, incidentally, the 2nd most broken thing to come out that edition. Compared to that abomination, the current codex did lose alot (a bit too much unfortunately but that pendulum swung hard).
schadenfreude wrote:
Iron warriors use hordes of cultists as cannon fodder. Where are the cultists?
For that matter how do you make an alpha legion or world bearers list with no cultists?
Iron warriors don't need 4 hs slots, but the basilisk is an iconic iw vehicle. Why is everybody getting their panties in a bind about the possibility of iw having a basilisk? IG doesn't even tend to use basilisks anymore, and its not like iw players are asking for vendettas and manticores. Given the popularity of hydras/manticores in ig giving iw back their basilisks is about the only way gw will sell more basilisks.
Because if Chaos has a good codex, all the Little Billies playing Marines won't be able to beat them. The bad guys CAN. NOT. WIN.
Yes, their terrible codex. A codex which was a top tournament contender for 90% of it's lifespan and which still has better infantry options then the beloved space marines. Chaos players whining is a signature of this and every other edition of the game.
schadenfreude wrote: Iron warriors use hordes of cultists as cannon fodder. Where are the cultists?
For that matter how do you make an alpha legion or world bearers list with no cultists?
Iron warriors don't need 4 hs slots, but the basilisk is an iconic iw vehicle. Why is everybody getting their panties in a bind about the possibility of iw having a basilisk? IG doesn't even tend to use basilisks anymore, and its not like iw players are asking for vendettas and manticores. Given the popularity of hydras/manticores in ig giving iw back their basilisks is about the only way gw will sell more basilisks.
Because if Chaos has a good codex, all the Little Billies playing Marines won't be able to beat them. The bad guys CAN. NOT. WIN.
Yes, their terrible codex. A codex which was a top tournament contender for 90% of it's lifespan and which still has better infantry options then the beloved space marines. Chaos players whining is a signature of this and every other edition of the game.
Didn't you know that Chaos are more metal and therefore should be better than anything else bar nothing?
ShumaGorath wrote:Yes, their terrible codex. A codex which was a top tournament contender for 90% of it's lifespan
This is more of a case of Chaos being a “popular” faction which is why you would see a placing, not because Chaos had a good codex. 40k is not as rock/paper/scissors with codex strength as you might think as player ability is more important than anything else.
Some new plastic Oblits that aren't just blobs of incoherent flesh would be nice...
I hope they don't continue going down the more silly cartoony look for their modelling art direction. I really didn't like all the new Daemons and the plastic DP. The older metal Horrors look so much more sinister than the silly beaked gawking rabble we have now.
ShumaGorath wrote:Yes, their terrible codex. A codex which was a top tournament contender for 90% of it's lifespan
This is more of a case of Chaos being a “popular” faction which is why you would see a placing, not because Chaos had a good codex. 40k is not as rock/paper/scissors with codex strength as you might think as player ability is more important than anything else.
Clearly it had nothing to do with the codexes access to cheap and highly resilient scoring units, low cost high output monstrous creatures, or resilient multi use long range units. It was all due to how 'popular' the codex is. Nope, khorne berserkers and plague marines were never the best troop choices in the game. Obliterators were never the best heavy support, demon princes were never the best HQ, you never had the ability to make cheap I5 LC terrm squads or field low cost battlecanons attached to fleeting 5 attack dreadnaughts. You weren't the first one to get cheap rhinos, you weren't the first one to get a low cost deep striking melta unit, you werent the first one to get powerful and game changing psychic powers.
I doubt we'll see another powerhouse like that. I can't tell if it's a bad thing. If Mat Ward writes a competitive book people will accuse him of using the CSM as his mary sues (not looking to debate what that means; that IS the phrase that will be used) and if he doesn't the most popular word on Dakka for the month after will be "nerf."
I dont think anyone is questioning the power of the Chaos Codex. But it is very much a mono build. 2 DP's some PlagueMarines w/melta/plasma and oblits. Hard core but thats about it.
What most complain about is there is no character and you cant make legion armies. There are no cult terminators, (a big downside for all the slaanesh players who lost their sonic weapons) nor are there dreadnought options to make it a Legion dreadnought. When you compare that to say Wolves,BAngels,Vanilla SM,or even GK who all have multiple builds which are more or less competitive.
And before you all jump on me saying thats just codex creep etc, I remember when the CHaos dex came out that one build was pretty much the only competitive build. And all the fluffy players were still complaining about the loss of Legion options. I mean 4 years later Im a little surprised we\re even having this argumenr when even the codex writer has gone on record saying they went too far removing options
I didnt have the realm of chaos books but i did have the 2nd edition book onwards. CSM had an up and down time with codexs.
2nd edition = great
3rd edition = get you by rubbish
3.5 recamp = greatand best so far
4th edition = massive step backwards wtf were they thinking >:-(
I hope the chaos legions codex will be better. The way i see it they'll either
1) make it like 3.5 which would be ok but lazy and boring
2) do a very flexible list with new choices from each legion
3) balls it all up again and make me stop collecting the hobby
If you like the sound of ghost21 sourced rumours I'd prepare yourself for disappointment. Stuff he has cribbed from someone else might have more veracity.
GentlemanGuy wrote:Looking at this i'm hoping its not ****ed up.
I didnt have the realm of chaos books but i did have the 2nd edition book onwards. CSM had an up and down time with codexs.
2nd edition = great
3rd edition = get you by rubbish
3.5 recamp = greatand best so far
4th edition = massive step backwards wtf were they thinking >:-(
I hope the chaos legions codex will be better. The way i see it they'll either
1) make it like 3.5 which would be ok but lazy and boring
2) do a very flexible list with new choices from each legion
3) balls it all up again and make me stop collecting the hobby
I wouldn't expect anything like the 4th ed codex, considering they backed away from the strategy of streamlining everything too much. That lasted for the CSM, DA, and BAWD codices, and they stopped since the backlash was so bad. Alessio and Gav have publicly apologized for those ones.
-Loki- wrote:I'll take Wards over the top over heroic fluff any day over Cruddaces collage of fluff copy/pasted from all different editions, with his own injected in for fun, to create a non-workable mess.
And over Gav Thorpe's Phoned-In-Before-He-Left-For-Black-Library codex.
Artanis wrote:Some new plastic Oblits that aren't just blobs of incoherent flesh would be nice....
First, I'm not exactly sure how one should sculpt the ability to morph ones body...
Second, beyond desire, there really isn't any reason to believe Obliterators should or could be released in plastic. They are low model count, no option models, so unless something changes that finecast is realistically the most you should hope for.
GentlemanGuy wrote:...3.5 recamp = great and best so far...
I agree with a lot of what you said, but this specific thing ignores the short comings and all the reasons GW made the 4th ed codex the way it is. I loved it but the 3.5 book was broken by virtue of the shear volume of options that modified the core concept central to too many units in the book. It was successful because the book gave you a continuum of options to deal with every threat, thus elleviating the element of strategy in selecting your army. One example of the excessiveness between marks, veteran skills, and legion rules there were 300+ varirations on the basic troop choice in the army before selecting wargear... but that same variation existed for a number of other units. It created a continuum of options... don't like havocs, take veterans, can't take veterans take CSM... fine tune all accordingly. No other army could do this to anywhere near the same degree.
aka_mythos wrote:Second, beyond desire, there really isn't any reason to believe Obliterators should or could be released in plastic. They are low model count, no option models, so unless something changes that finecast is realistically the most you should hope for.
I give you...Terminators!
The current trend seems to be make 1 box work for 2 different things. Now, considering we've had new plastic Terminators with the last release at best we're looking at Finecast or some sort of upgrade sprue with Terminators to have a dual function Terminators/Obliterators box. Base them both on the same basic build - well, considering they have very similar stats in the first place....
aka_mythos wrote:Second, beyond desire, there really isn't any reason to believe Obliterators should or could be released in plastic. They are low model count, no option models, so unless something changes that finecast is realistically the most you should hope for.
I give you...Terminators!
The current trend seems to be make 1 box work for 2 different things. Now, considering we've had new plastic Terminators with the last release at best we're looking at Finecast or some sort of upgrade sprue with Terminators to have a dual function Terminators/Obliterators box. Base them both on the same basic build - well, considering they have very similar stats in the first place....
I can't recall any kit they've done this after it was already released. This also ignores the distinct differences in appearance between terminators and obliterators... and the proportion of the original model that would have to be replaced. I think a purely Obliterator plastic kit is far more likely than an add-on or hybrid terminator kit. The models have never done the concept justice, and I'm inclined to believe that if they're redone GW will attempt to give them a worthwhile sculpt. That can't be accomplished with add-on and hybrid kits.
GentlemanGuy wrote:...3.5 recamp = great and best so far...
I agree with a lot of what you said, but this specific thing ignores the short comings and all the reasons GW made the 4th ed codex the way it is. I loved it but the 3.5 book was broken by virtue of the shear volume of options that modified the core concept central to too many units in the book. It was successful because the book gave you a continuum of options to deal with every threat, thus elleviating the element of strategy in selecting your army. One example of the excessiveness between marks, veteran skills, and legion rules there were 300+ varirations on the basic troop choice in the army before selecting wargear... but that same variation existed for a number of other units. It created a continuum of options... don't like havocs, take veterans, can't take veterans take CSM... fine tune all accordingly. No other army could do this to anywhere near the same degree.
Wow, that does sound awfully chaotic. [/bad pun] Personally I'd love to see more codexes like that, maybe not to that extreme a lot more "Unit A does X well, option 1 will make them awesome at X, option 2 makes them slightly less effective at X but gives them some use in role Y", pretty much each unit have a set place, but having the option to put a toe outside of that.
I liked the book too, who couldn't? It was just as badly flawed from a game perspective as the 4th edition book. I think its fine that they had variations to their rules, but it was just too much. When they went to 4th, they could have fixed the book by omitting any one of those sets of options but they took more out than that.
From a game mechanic perspective, GW needs to figure out how Chaos can be "chaotic" and yet conform enough to the conventions of the game. The fact that chaos has a number of units with randomized rules that are at best good 50% of the time, but bad far more often... compounded by the fact that those units are priced as if they're alway advantageous... is an example of this sort of chaotic in un conventionally useless way. In my FLGS I'm the only person to use chaos dreadnoughts and chaos spawn, and that was largely because I built my self distructing army of Malal as a joke.
-Loki- wrote:
Most likely Horus Aximand is going to be a special character. That was my immediate reaction.
I you haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, Horus Aximand was one of Horus's (Horus the primarch) 'mournival', an informal group of captains to advise him. He was named after Horus, and had the nickname 'Little Horus'.
He bore a striking resemblance to Horus as well. Unfortunately, he was wounded in battle according to one of the short stores and his face was ripped off (by a White Scar Captain who evaded capture/death) as he prefers to fight not wearing a helmet.
This is interesting news, both my more regular oponents will have had an update by 6th, I will need to brush my army list up.
I know Ward writes relatively good rules (if they are sometimes a little unclear, BA jump packs anyone?) It's his fluff I cant stand; He is so unsubtle it's depressing, Ba used to have a hint or veiled comment about a few vampiric tendencies now they practically wear red and black capes, have slicked back hair and swoop around transylvanian ruins crying "I Vant to suck your blood." Its all very well defending him but when it's your beloved army he's just whored out as a cheesey, OTT, mary-sue-hooker it hurts a little.
lord_blackfang wrote:For those keeping track, how is ghost's track record, anyway?
He accurately predicted the special fall release would be Warhammer Nautical themed (ie Dreadfleet). He incorrectly stated that SOB would NOT get a WD article.
His more recent Necron Rumors were a 50% hit and 50% miss. Though he stated up front he had only seen an early play test codex (2-3 test codices prior to the final print). I have rehashed these rumors in the spoiler below:
Spoiler:
Ghost 21 wrote:I probably shouldn't say this, but at least 2 of the named lords there are supposedly characters in the dex (from the names at least , though only found that out after reading FOD). At least one will get a figure (I've seen it, it had a version before but he was never released)
Hit and a miss: He was spot on with the FoD "Storm Caller" or in the codex "Imotekh the Stormlord". The next SC, which he later said was the Flayed one lord never showed up in the final codex.
Ghost21 wrote:ive heard november , ive also heard march 2012
November was correct. StickMonkey predicted a All-Hallow's Eve release prior to this. At the time, there was some debate whether this would mean October or November.
Ghost 21 wrote:not sure if its exactly a rumor but ive just been informed necrons will see the first of the resin figs
Wrong...just about everything else got finecast models before Necrons.
Ghost 21 wrote:warriors are not bieng redone there may be an aditional sprue representing upgrades, n the colours but otherwise no
Correct...well except for the different color rods...but then he did say "may".
Ghost 21 wrote:to be honest ive not heard of the jump infantry. then again i had only heard about 2 troop choices , the big necro giant , tomb spiders, some sort of necron artilery piece
There was a new jump infantry unit, though he doesn't deny thier existance completely. He is the first to mention a necron artilery piece...which may or may not have been one of the floating gun barges that made it into the second codex...too vague to know
Ghost21 wrote:ive heard of some sort of bodguard unit, but again not in the frst wave
Hit and a miss. Lychguard are what he is refering to. However, they were in the first wave.
Ghost21 wrote:i saw a copy of the draft rules for the necro giant , n all i can say is resurrection ability's with guns, and mele attacks that ignore saves
Nope...its a walker without ressurection or DCCW. Still, he does say it was draft rules and both StickMonkey and Tabitha previously stated it as being a MC. So maybe he did see a test copy where it was a MC.
Ghost21 wrote:oh and c'tan wont be in the book, it was silly to put them in the previous one i mean khorne isnt in codex chaos space marines or daemons is he?
Prior to this, there were rumors of a new specifically named C'tan like the Dragon. Ghost was the first to put this down. He was correct. There are no C'tan's in the Necron Codex...just shards.
Ghost21 wrote:remember the imperium reforge / re tool those weapons for there [assassins] to use
and i never saw a phase sword in the old necron dex, and don't think we will see one now (at least not in anything I've seen)
Correct. There are no longer any phase weapons that ignore invulnerable saves.
Ghost 21 wrote:
Anything on Wraiths ?
They are probably the "new" Flayer-like Fast Attack choice mentioned in the OP.
wraiths are not the new fast attack (there wasn't one in the version ive seen, ) but that was at least 1 or 2 before the printed dex ,(wraiths are harsh now)
Correct. There are no new fact attack choices in the Necron Codex. Wraiths, Scarabs, and destroyers are the only fast attack choices in either codex.
Ghost 21 wrote:there is a lord that makes flayed ones troops
No...there is not. BTW, this would have been the other character Ghost references as being in both the FoD and the Codex.
Ghost21 wrote:and i never saw squad leaders then again only saw squad upgrades
Correct. There in no option in the indivual units to upgrade a squad member to a squad leader. In the codex, you can split off a squad of Cryteks/Lords to lead other squads (like Wolf Guard), but this is a separate unit. He later speculated that necrons might get a WG like unit.
ghost21 wrote:but apart from that expect insane abilities on elites (flayed ones I'm looking at you).
Hit and a miss. He was correct in that Flayed ones remained in the elite slot. However, I am not aware of Flayed ones possessing insane abilities.
Ghost21 wrote:
Well now, thank you for saying Flayed One's won't be troops
Now it makes one wonder what the other troop is aside warriors...
I guess scarabs...
yeah id say that was accurate
Not accurate...scarabs stayed in the fast attack slot
Ghost21 wrote:
Yeah I wouldn't be suprised if the Immortals kit includes variant Warsycthe arms and extra bling so you can build the retinue.
thats a strong possibility
id be thinking more 8 warriors (so if you want warriors id buy em now)
Nope on all accounts. In addition, Ghost reiterates several more times that the warriors box will be recut with less models in a box. This didn't happen.
Ghost21 wrote:res orbs are overpowered normally there's a sc that has an even MORE POWERFUL ONE! (hope that clears things up)
the version i read had s&p ( for some )
No, there is no SC with a more powerful res orb that I am aware of.
ShumaGorath wrote:Yes, their terrible codex. A codex which was a top tournament contender for 90% of it's lifespan
This is more of a case of Chaos being a “popular” faction which is why you would see a placing, not because Chaos had a good codex. 40k is not as rock/paper/scissors with codex strength as you might think as player ability is more important than anything else.
Clearly it had nothing to do with the codexes access to cheap and highly resilient scoring units, low cost high output monstrous creatures, or resilient multi use long range units. It was all due to how 'popular' the codex is. Nope, khorne berserkers and plague marines were never the best troop choices in the game. Obliterators were never the best heavy support, demon princes were never the best HQ, you never had the ability to make cheap I5 LC terrm squads or field low cost battlecanons attached to fleeting 5 attack dreadnaughts. You weren't the first one to get cheap rhinos, you weren't the first one to get a low cost deep striking melta unit, you werent the first one to get powerful and game changing psychic powers.
Clearly the lack of cultists made the book gak.
You are correct about how powerful the 4th edition codex was when it came out. The 4th edition codex was way more powerful than the 3.5 codex. The 4th edition codex was the monster that started the codex creep. The 4th edition codex caused a huge number of power gamers to codex hop into chaos, and most them them left for greener pastures. All of that being said what chaos players are demanding is a return to the 3.5 codex, not another 4th edition codex to top grey knights.
We want viable mono god lists for the 4 single god themed legions.
We want a viable list for the undivided legions such as iron warriors, alpha legion, world bearers, and night lords
What we don't want another codex black legion where every competitive list is mechanized plague marines for troops, 2 lash princes, and obliterators.
The lack of cultists did make the book absolute gak for iron warriors, alpha legion, and word bearer players. Running those legions without legions is like running IG without infantry, so those legions have effectively been squated since september 2007. Mono Khorne, mono Tzeentch, and mono Slaneesh lists have also been complete gak since the book came out. The codex was absolutely terrible for 8/9 chaos legions, and fantastic for black legion. Furthermore by your own logic that it was a bad overpowered codex when it was released 4th ed chaos is a bad codex. I have no idea why your panties are in a bind about the possibility of chaos going more in the direction of the 3.5 codex.
I have no idea why your panties are in a bind about the possibility of chaos going more in the direction of the 3.5 codex.
Look to your own panties, schadenfreude. What you quoted was in response to someone asserting that C:CSM 4th demanded player skill rather than being good in itself (you quoted this, too, so it's difficult to see how you missed it). You're talking on a completely different point, about what the next book should be like.
aka_mythos wrote:Second, beyond desire, there really isn't any reason to believe Obliterators should or could be released in plastic. They are low model count, no option models, so unless something changes that finecast is realistically the most you should hope for.
I give you...Terminators!
The current trend seems to be make 1 box work for 2 different things. Now, considering we've had new plastic Terminators with the last release at best we're looking at Finecast or some sort of upgrade sprue with Terminators to have a dual function Terminators/Obliterators box. Base them both on the same basic build - well, considering they have very similar stats in the first place....
I can't recall any kit they've done this after it was already released. This also ignores the distinct differences in appearance between terminators and obliterators... and the proportion of the original model that would have to be replaced. I think a purely Obliterator plastic kit is far more likely than an add-on or hybrid terminator kit. The models have never done the concept justice, and I'm inclined to believe that if they're redone GW will attempt to give them a worthwhile sculpt. That can't be accomplished with add-on and hybrid kits.
I do see this as likely happening simply from a simplicity standpoint (they're large figs with heavy armor and roughly the same shape on 40mm bases) but I hope it won't for purely selfish reasons. The current oblits are a bit bigger than termies and would make for great chaos Terminators in a truescale Deathwatch RPG game. All it takes is a medium effort concept redesign to make them a derivation of the terminator kit. If they kept the current design then I don't see a combo kit happening.
schadenfreude wrote:The lack of cultists did make the book absolute gak for iron warriors, alpha legion, and word bearer players. Running those legions without legions is like running IG without infantry, so those legions have effectively been squated since september 2007.
Oddly enough, I keep seeing these IG armies with lots of tanks and jet aircraft across the table and no infantry to be found. Oh, do you mean the squishy little things that pop out when I blow up one of those metal boxes?
Saying that IW is not a real chapter is like saying SW is not a real chapter. The reason why I think GW does not want single codexes for chaos is because it will take for every to update other codexes (tau). It would be nice to include special characters and bring back LATD.
schadenfreude wrote:The lack of cultists did make the book absolute gak for iron warriors, alpha legion, and word bearer players. Running those legions without legions is like running IG without infantry, so those legions have effectively been squated since september 2007.
Oddly enough, I keep seeing these IG armies with lots of tanks and jet aircraft across the table and no infantry to be found. Oh, do you mean the squishy little things that pop out when I blow up one of those metal boxes?
I never saw a single cultist on the table during the entirety of my time playing against the 3.5 chaos codex. I saw four separate basilisk obliterator armies, but for some reason cultists weren't in them.
schadenfreude wrote:The lack of cultists did make the book absolute gak for iron warriors, alpha legion, and word bearer players. Running those legions without legions is like running IG without infantry, so those legions have effectively been squated since september 2007.
Oddly enough, I keep seeing these IG armies with lots of tanks and jet aircraft across the table and no infantry to be found. Oh, do you mean the squishy little things that pop out when I blow up one of those metal boxes?
I never saw a single cultist on the table during the entirety of my time playing against the 3.5 chaos codex. I saw four separate basilisk obliterator armies, but for some reason cultists weren't in them.
4th ed lacked the objectives of 5th ed
Not all iw were as focused on cultists. With 5th ed rules you would see a lot more cultists around as cheap objective grabbers.
I saw plenty of cultists around in alpha legion lists. World bearers have never been real popular, but I never saw a pre 4th ed list without cultists.
I have no idea why your panties are in a bind about the possibility of chaos going more in the direction of the 3.5 codex.
Look to your own panties, schadenfreude. What you quoted was in response to someone asserting that C:CSM 4th demanded player skill rather than being good in itself (you quoted this, too, so it's difficult to see how you missed it). You're talking on a completely different point, about what the next book should be like.
My own panties have been in a bind for over 4 years ever since my alpha legion army got squatted.
That didn't look like an assertation that 4th ed C:CSM took skill, it looked more like a rant about C:CSM being stupid op back when it came out (which it was)
Most chaos players have a favorite legion, much like loyalists have their favorite chapter. Chaos players are upset because the only competitive build is black legion, 9 out of 11 of the founding legions are chaos, but chaos only has 1 book to 6 loyalists books that all have multiple competitive builds.
I have no idea why your panties are in a bind about the possibility of chaos going more in the direction of the 3.5 codex.
Look to your own panties, schadenfreude. What you quoted was in response to someone asserting that C:CSM 4th demanded player skill rather than being good in itself (you quoted this, too, so it's difficult to see how you missed it). You're talking on a completely different point, about what the next book should be like.
My own panties have been in a bind for over 4 years ever since my alpha legion army got squatted.
That didn't look like an assertation that 4th ed C:CSM took skill, it looked more like a rant about C:CSM being stupid op back when it came out (which it was)
Most chaos players have a favorite legion, much like loyalists have their favorite chapter. Chaos players are upset because the only competitive build is black legion, 9 out of 11 of the founding legions are chaos, but chaos only has 1 book to 6 loyalists books that all have multiple competitive builds.
I was railing against someone who said that the chaos book was underpowered and saw tournament success because of it's popularity, not it's power. It's not a difficult codex to play and thanks to the presence of the incredibly powerful troops choices in there it's one of the most forgiving in the game. Read the quote I was quoting before responding to what I said without understanding what was intended. Black legion wasn't even close to the only competitive build and berserker rhino rush lists and plaguemarine foot slog lists are and have always been quite good.
I mean, if we're taking tourney monobuiilds into account then the basic marine book lacks any variety at all since vulkan has and has always been the only viable tourney build.
I have no idea why your panties are in a bind about the possibility of chaos going more in the direction of the 3.5 codex.
Look to your own panties, schadenfreude. What you quoted was in response to someone asserting that C:CSM 4th demanded player skill rather than being good in itself (you quoted this, too, so it's difficult to see how you missed it). You're talking on a completely different point, about what the next book should be like.
My own panties have been in a bind for over 4 years ever since my alpha legion army got squatted.
That didn't look like an assertation that 4th ed C:CSM took skill, it looked more like a rant about C:CSM being stupid op back when it came out (which it was)
Most chaos players have a favorite legion, much like loyalists have their favorite chapter. Chaos players are upset because the only competitive build is black legion, 9 out of 11 of the founding legions are chaos, but chaos only has 1 book to 6 loyalists books that all have multiple competitive builds.
9 out of 18 legions are Chaos. The 4th Ed Chaos Codex was a very poor show to people who had legion specific armies, such as my old Death Guard Army, beyond the Plaguemarines the rest of my army was no longer Death Guard just Nurgle.
I hope that they can make the unit choices more interesting and make Chaos something that is unique and not just Spiky Marines.
Kanluwen wrote:If Phil's writing the book, expect it to be nowhere near as good as Wolves or Dark Eldar.
Kelly has no vested interest in Chaos. He only does well on the armies he plays/collects, and if he's working on Chaos he'd likely halfarse it so he can get to working on Sisters faster.
NO!
I can't let this comment pass. You do realise that Kelly is a member of the crew that wrote the 3.5 Chaos codex, which is regarded by almost everyone as the best Chaos codex ever.
I would like to see the Chaos Marines get a codex that looks similar to the Space Marines. They are similar in almost all aspects from transports, armor, and weapons. The Emperor didn't say to his space marines, "and they shall know no fear" after the heresy was over (more so that he was placed in the Golden Throne). He said that about his marines as they were conquering the galaxy. Why would my Chaos Space Marines break, run away, and not have a chance to rally? Why can't they combat squad? I understand that I have cult troops but I don't want my Word Bearers to commit to Khorne or Nurgle just so that I can remain on a level playing field. On top of that - why can't I just mark the unit? Why do they have to have one guy holding an Icon to make them reroll morale checks or give them +1 S,T, or I? Why does the squad's ability that I pay almost 50 points for rest on the survival of one man? Why are we still stuck with the original land raider? Somehow Chaos hasn't figured out how to pimp theirs out? The Mechanicus abhors the alteration of an STC yet somehow they churn them out for the loyalist but chaos who make all the repairs themselves and use corrupted Adeptus Mechanicus won't give them the go-ahead to alter their land raiders. These are just a few of my gripes against the current codex.
alphaomega wrote:9 out of 18 legions are Chaos. The 4th Ed Chaos Codex was a very poor show to people who had legion specific armies, such as my old Death Guard Army, beyond the Plaguemarines the rest of my army was no longer Death Guard just Nurgle.
The thing that annoyed me here? The Icon system. Not only did we lose the pure Cult armies with Berserker Terminators, Noise Marine Havocs, Rubrics and Death Guard Terminators (which is even more offensive given how damn beautiful the FW upgrade kit is!) but we got lumped with a cumbersome 'extra upgrade' that was thrown in just before 5th edition with the Torrent of Fire rules. So we have even more to lose to a random barrage of lucky hits due to having to assign wounds to everything.
It also creates very bizarre WTF moments where your entire army is Fearless...apart from your elite Veterans who run away at the drop of a hat and should they drop their flag on a stick suddenly can run off to worship Slaanesh despite their pustules and all.
People forget that the Cult lists had a lot of downsides to them in the forms of restricted units, restricted weapons and in some cases a complete lack of upgrades. Sure, the 3.5 list had some particularly OP aspects....such as trading the virtually useless Fast Attack for an extra Heavy Support (oh hi Iron Warriors) or Slaanesh minor psychic powers being particularly silly. But it was still better than its predecessor and its offspring. It was closer to the original 2nd edition codex and that is what it shouldn't have deviated from.
Let's be honest here and confess that the 4th ed. codex is a joke in the current metagame. If they'd stuck to their design plans and every Codex had been similarly streamlined as DA, Eldar and CSM had then I'm sure they would be balanced. But SW, GKs, BA and DE? Hahahaha. No. There we deviate quite nastily from the original plan. There is no way those are following the same philosophy as the Days of Jervis. Even Codex SM deviates significantly from it.
I have one hope - give us Marks. Give us upgrades for units that don't suddenly disappear to a lucky hit and give us upgrades that let us play the Legions proper.
We have ONE Codex for 9 Legions plus Renegades.
And yet the other side has 6 - and one of those is for a fething successor chapter of all things!
More than anything, I want the Icon system dropped. It is un-fluffy, un-wieldy and just plain un-usable. For my regular CSM squads, I never used them. I just didn't bother. I would like some variety. I have played the 2 DP, 6-9 Oblits, 2-3 Termicide squads, 2-3 PM foot sloggers and 2-3 WE rhino blitz for over 3 years now. Sure it works (even without Lash). It sure is boring though. My BA can go DOA or Razor Spam. My SM are nothing but variety. Admittedly my 'Nids need more work than my CSM. I am really hoping that GW doesn't break what I do use but gives me more choice that makes sense. I didn't care for 3.5 (blasphemy!) all that much. It took about 30 minutes to explain my list to my opponent. The dreadnoughts still sucked. The minor psychic powers were lame. It also didn't pack much of a punch. It was easy to min-max and you basically had to to be competitive. Fluff considerations aside, I want either Ward (that's right I said it!) or Kelly to make my favorite army fun again.
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Captain Destructo wrote:which one is the successor chapter? and I only count five. Sorry, probably just me being dense.
Black Templars I believe.......successor to the IF.
Black Templars.
There is Codex Loyal Marines, BA, DA, SW, BT and Grey Knights (which could also be a successor chapter).
I would be nice to see a deadicated book for each god at least, that way they could mix Daemons and Marines with more human/alien cultists and bring more options to the metagame.
DarkStarSabre wrote:
And yet the other side has 6 - and one of those is for a fething successor chapter of all things!
Irrelevant TBH, 2nd Founding Chapters were still originally composed of the warriors who fought in the Heresy. They're entitled to the same glories as their parent Legions. 3rd and on and you'd have a case though.
The only reason the Templars got a Codex is because they had a very powerful sub-list in Codex: Armageddon, it became popular, and GW reckoned they could make more money by spinning them off into a full Codex. Graham McNeil wrote the Codex, it wasn't anywhere near as powerful as the Codex: Armageddon version, and no Graham McNeil no longer writes Codices. Make of that what you will.
In case people are wondering where the cultists came from, there was a chapter approved on it by Andy Chambers.
I also remember Jervis doing a chapter approved on cult terminators after someone complained. Yeah, you read that right - GW responded to feedback.
MasterSlowPoke wrote:
I'm not aware of anything he's accurately predicted.
I thought he accurately predicted Dreadfleet but that's it.
He doesn't seem to be quoted at all in either the Dakka or Warseer threads. He's mentioned in the header of the Dakka thread but I can't find what he said and when he said it. I suspect he just piggybacked onto Harry's hints.
-Loki- wrote:
Most likely Horus Aximand is going to be a special character. That was my immediate reaction.
I you haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, Horus Aximand was one of Horus's (Horus the primarch) 'mournival', an informal group of captains to advise him. He was named after Horus, and had the nickname 'Little Horus'.
He bore a striking resemblance to Horus as well. Unfortunately, he was wounded in battle according to one of the short stores and his face was ripped off (by a White Scar Captain who evaded capture/death) as he prefers to fight not wearing a helmet.
After they reattached his face all he ever really looked was angry.
-Loki- wrote:
Most likely Horus Aximand is going to be a special character. That was my immediate reaction.
I you haven't read the Horus Heresy novels, Horus Aximand was one of Horus's (Horus the primarch) 'mournival', an informal group of captains to advise him. He was named after Horus, and had the nickname 'Little Horus'.
He bore a striking resemblance to Horus as well. Unfortunately, he was wounded in battle according to one of the short stores and his face was ripped off (by a White Scar Captain who evaded capture/death) as he prefers to fight not wearing a helmet.
After they reattached his face all he ever really looked was angry.
This being GW, I'm both surprised and disappointed he wasn't left with just a skull... and thereafter called 'little skullface' or perhaps 'skeletor'.
I know, i just like him. (they could make a datasheet or whatever)
And, if Mat ward writes it (badly) then my rage will be unmeasurable in human measure systems.
schadenfreude wrote:
Iron warriors use hordes of cultists as cannon fodder. Where are the cultists?
For that matter how do you make an alpha legion or world bearers list with no cultists?
Iron warriors don't need 4 hs slots, but the basilisk is an iconic iw vehicle. Why is everybody getting their panties in a bind about the possibility of iw having a basilisk? IG doesn't even tend to use basilisks anymore, and its not like iw players are asking for vendettas and manticores. Given the popularity of hydras/manticores in ig giving iw back their basilisks is about the only way gw will sell more basilisks.
Because if Chaos has a good codex, all the Little Billies playing Marines won't be able to beat them. The bad guys CAN. NOT. WIN.
Yes, their terrible codex. A codex which was a top tournament contender for 90% of it's lifespan and which still has better infantry options then the beloved space marines. Chaos players whining is a signature of this and every other edition of the game.
*Ric Romero Picture*
Good players can take a bad codex and still beat terrible players that flock to Power Armored Kiddie Candy. More at 11.
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templarboy wrote:More than anything, I want the Icon system dropped. It is un-fluffy, un-wieldy and just plain un-usable. For my regular CSM squads, I never used them. I just didn't bother. I would like some variety. I have played the 2 DP, 6-9 Oblits, 2-3 Termicide squads, 2-3 PM foot sloggers and 2-3 WE rhino blitz for over 3 years now. Sure it works (even without Lash). It sure is boring though. My BA can go DOA or Razor Spam. My SM are nothing but variety. Admittedly my 'Nids need more work than my CSM. I am really hoping that GW doesn't break what I do use but gives me more choice that makes sense. I didn't care for 3.5 (blasphemy!) all that much. It took about 30 minutes to explain my list to my opponent. The dreadnoughts still sucked. The minor psychic powers were lame. It also didn't pack much of a punch. It was easy to min-max and you basically had to to be competitive. Fluff considerations aside, I want either Ward (that's right I said it!) or Kelly to make my favorite army fun again.
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Captain Destructo wrote:which one is the successor chapter? and I only count five. Sorry, probably just me being dense.
Black Templars I believe.......successor to the IF.
MeanGreenStompa wrote:It's strongly alluded to that the GK are created from those from the traitor legions who resisted the betrayal and returned to the Emperor.
Ehhhhhhhh.
Yes and no. It's strongly alluded to that the founding of the Grey Knights was done with those individuals involved. Not that they're created directly from them--which would be weird, because how would it explain the massive amount of psykers and lack of traits which those individual Legions exhibited.
Worglock wrote:Grey Knights are also not an original legion.
It's a little muddy, as they were created before the 2nd founding, and have a unique geneseed.
The Grey Knights should not have had a codex dedicated to them alone and have the Daemonhunters codex turned into just another marine codex. A focus on the Inquisition with a little bit of GK mixed in would be perfect, but of course that could never happen.
Worglock wrote:Grey Knights are also not an original legion.
It's a little muddy, as they were created before the 2nd founding, and have a unique geneseed.
Emphasising mine, I wouldn't say that's it's exactly muddy.
I wouldn't say their dubious timing makes them a Legion; they neither fought in the great crusade, nor had a primarch. Add to that their numbers and I'd say they're a chapter, but not a successor chapter or a Legion, so they're in a unique(er) position.
Worglock wrote:Grey Knights are also not an original legion.
It's a little muddy, as they were created before the 2nd founding, and have a unique geneseed.
Emphasising mine, I wouldn't say that's it's exactly muddy.
I wouldn't say their dubious timing makes them a Legion; they neither fought in the great crusade, nor had a primarch. Add to that their numbers and I'd say they're a chapter, but not a successor chapter or a Legion, so they're in a unique(er) position.
They're definitely not a Legion, the GK codex says at much. It says they were created as a Chapter, so I guess they would be the only 1st Founding Chapter.
You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.
Space Wolves lost that too.
Well, who has a codex specific for their own legion, and who doesn't? Iron warriors had a few more rules to add a bit of flavour, space wolves had, and now have more. Either way, this might be solved with a new codex, so here's to hoping!
Um... space wolves have had their own independent codex since 2nd edition whereas Iron Warriors never had one so the comparison isn't really valid as you never "lost" a full codex. The Iron Warriors lost a page or two of special rules which could easily be done with a single special character warsmith ala the ICs in the marine codex. And, to be honest, you really only lost the ability to take 4 heavies including a basilisk as that is the only thing I can remember anyone ever taking. If that is all you want to do, play the tyrant's list from the badab books until the legion book comes out next year.
1. My comparison to space wolves was due to the fact that Kan talked about it first
2. The fact that space wolves had a codex and Iron warriors had only a few rules to make them slightly more unique compared to other armies; only for that to be lost was actually my point. Really, all that was needed was one page, although it wasn't added or made.
3.Why would I want to play something from a badab book if I have to pay FW prices or download from the internet? I want to use a legal actual Iron warriors army, one which i can use in tournaments. Either way though a special warsmith character could be a compromise.
You just lost the ability to take vehicles from books that weren't yours.
Space Wolves lost that too.
Well, who has a codex specific for their own legion, and who doesn't? Iron warriors had a few more rules to add a bit of flavour, space wolves had, and now have more. Either way, this might be solved with a new codex, so here's to hoping!
Um... space wolves have had their own independent codex since 2nd edition whereas Iron Warriors never had one so the comparison isn't really valid as you never "lost" a full codex. The Iron Warriors lost a page or two of special rules which could easily be done with a single special character warsmith ala the ICs in the marine codex. And, to be honest, you really only lost the ability to take 4 heavies including a basilisk as that is the only thing I can remember anyone ever taking. If that is all you want to do, play the tyrant's list from the badab books until the legion book comes out next year.
1. My comparison to space wolves was due to the fact that Kan talked about it first
Firstly, you do realize that the Space Wolf codex at that time was a 34ish page "supplement" for Codex: Space Marines, right? That's why I "talked about it first".
It was essentially a sublist, same as the Iron Warriors one was in the previous Chaos book.
2. The fact that space wolves had a codex and Iron warriors had only a few rules to make them slightly more unique compared to other armies; only for that to be lost was actually my point. Really, all that was needed was one page, although it wasn't added or made.
All that was needed was one page and another army's book, you mean.
I don't see why people are clamoring for Basilisks. There's so much MORE that can be done in the way of siege stuff for Chaos. Eldritch machines blending science with sorcery and the Daemonic with the rational. Look at the Brass Scorpion or the Blood Slaughterer or the Plague Drones. That's the kind of stuff that Chaos produces for itself, the Basilisks and the like are usually reserved for "Traitor Guard" regiments or special occasions.
3.Why would I want to play something from a badab book if I have to pay FW prices or download from the internet? I want to use a legal actual Iron warriors army, one which i can use in tournaments. Either way though a special warsmith character could be a compromise.
A "legal, actual Iron Warriors army" is one of a billion different things. The Iron Warriors, much like every Traitor Legion at this point, don't really have a huge amount of organizational acumen.
And seriously: why not play something from the Badab book? You can't complain that it's "not available from anywhere but Forge World", because it's available from here, on GW proper's webstore. If you don't go overboard on some of the 'cheesy' aspects of the Tyrant's Legion list, you likely will not have problems with people playing against it.
And seriously: why not play something from the Badab book? You can't complain that it's "not available from anywhere but Forge World", because it's available from here, on GW proper's webstore. If you don't go overboard on some of the 'cheesy' aspects of the Tyrant's Legion list, you likely will not have problems with people playing against it.
Read: You'll be ok as long as you don't beat Little Billy's Marines. Then it's "Cheesy Forgeworld".
And seriously: why not play something from the Badab book? You can't complain that it's "not available from anywhere but Forge World", because it's available from here, on GW proper's webstore. If you don't go overboard on some of the 'cheesy' aspects of the Tyrant's Legion list, you likely will not have problems with people playing against it.
Read: You'll be ok as long as you don't beat Little Billy's Marines. Then it's "Cheesy Forgeworld".
It's not like that pile could stand up to grey knights or a well tooled wolves army anyway. Forge world could never come out with something as broken as the scoring palladin unit or the death cult assasin. My space sharks (taken from the badab book) are basically just a poor mans blood angels (I seriously just save points and gain abilities without changing models if I say "these are blood sharks".)
And seriously: why not play something from the Badab book? You can't complain that it's "not available from anywhere but Forge World", because it's available from here, on GW proper's webstore. If you don't go overboard on some of the 'cheesy' aspects of the Tyrant's Legion list, you likely will not have problems with people playing against it.
Read: You'll be ok as long as you don't beat Little Billy's Marines. Then it's "Cheesy Forgeworld".
It's not like that pile could stand up to grey knights or a well tooled wolves army anyway. Forge world could never come out with something as broken as the scoring palladin unit or the death cult assasin. My space sharks (taken from the badab book) are basically just a poor mans blood angels (I seriously just save points and gain abilities without changing models if I say "these are blood sharks".)
@kanluwen: As to the space wolves part, I did not know about that; although unless the supplement couldnt be used in the later editions, the space wolves still had a codex. About the reply to my second answer, I do agree that much more could be done; but there should be a limit as to what a codex's options could be. The extra is where apocalypse comes in imo. Lastly, what I meant by the badab book being bad, was the price. If they would cost as much as a codex, or at most $50, yeah...thats okay. But $100 is just too much
Not that I'm whining or anything, rather I'm just wish listing (if I'm using the correct term) that the legions codex gets iron warrior (and friends) rules again.
But what I really want to see is a night lord IC...playing Talos o Zho Sahaal would be really badass!
And seriously: why not play something from the Badab book? You can't complain that it's "not available from anywhere but Forge World", because it's available from here, on GW proper's webstore. If you don't go overboard on some of the 'cheesy' aspects of the Tyrant's Legion list, you likely will not have problems with people playing against it.
Read: You'll be ok as long as you don't beat Little Billy's Marines. Then it's "Cheesy Forgeworld".
It's not like that pile could stand up to grey knights or a well tooled wolves army anyway. Forge world could never come out with something as broken as the scoring palladin unit or the death cult assasin. My space sharks (taken from the badab book) are basically just a poor mans blood angels (I seriously just save points and gain abilities without changing models if I say "these are blood sharks".)
The Badaab war book is hardly OP.
And you hardly got my point.
The point about army legitimacy in forge world suppliments or the point about billies Marines? You're point was a sentence fragment.
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Blitza da warboy wrote:@kanluwen: As to the space wolves part, I did not know about that; although unless the supplement couldnt be used in the later editions, the space wolves still had a codex. About the reply to my second answer, I do agree that much more could be done; but there should be a limit as to what a codex's options could be. The extra is where apocalypse comes in imo. Lastly, what I meant by the badab book being bad, was the price. If they would cost as much as a codex, or at most $50, yeah...thats okay. But $100 is just too much
Not that I'm whining or anything, rather I'm just wish listing (if I'm using the correct term) that the legions codex gets iron warrior (and friends) rules again.
But what I really want to see is a night lord IC...playing Talos o Zho Sahaal would be really badass!
I use the PDF of the badaab war book. Paying 100 dollars for a single page HQ entry is lunacy. They need to couch these things in smaller tomes.
Kanluwen wrote:And seriously: why not play something from the Badab book? You can't complain that it's "not available from anywhere but Forge World", because it's available from here, on GW proper's webstore. If you don't go overboard on some of the 'cheesy' aspects of the Tyrant's Legion list, you likely will not have problems with people playing against it.
I think that the lists we are going to see in the future will not be as bland as we see now. since its common practice for the developers to look eachother over the shoulder now, i dont think that the over simplified codices we all loathe so much will continue.
however, consider this. The trend of one bad codex in the aftermath of an awesome one might be a marketing ploy by gw and heres why: when a codex is less then amazing players will tend to look into other armies that have a more varied list of options and as their old list falls out of favor they sell off their old models or neglect them. then a shiny codex comes out for their old army that they neglected to death and makes them want to buy the same army allover again....
gw would make most money this way in the long run... but only from dedicated players.
Castiel wrote:Anyone else apprehensive about the bandwagoning we're might see with the new codex?
That's a little elitist, don't you think? You don't want to be a 40K hipster after all. "Huh, I was into Chaos before it was cool."
No one should be under any illusions that anything connected to wargaming will score you cool points. I mean, it's my hobby and all, but that's the reality of it.
Besides, if anything a Legions book will have a lot of players dusting off their old armies. It used to be that you couldn't swing a dead cat without hitting a CSM army. Or a live cat, for that matter.
Castiel wrote:Anyone else apprehensive about the bandwagoning we're might see with the new codex?
That's a little elitist, don't you think? You don't want to be a 40K hipster after all. "Huh, I was into Chaos before it was cool."
I don't mean it in that way, I just mean that I'm kind of worried about the flak that might get thrown our way like has happened to Grey Knights, SW etc.
Now i look at it i really would like to see an armylist with new legion specific units in there and IC with rules to make the army more legion orientated
gorgon wrote:
No one should be under any illusions that anything connected to wargaming will score you cool points. I mean, it's my hobby and all, but that's the reality of it.
This. I can just see it.
*Friday night out at a trendy pub somewhere*
Me: So, I just finished painting my new Warhammer HQ.
Girl: You'll never touch me. In fact, you owe me 15 bucks for the handshake I gave you when we met.
Me: It's cool, love. I play Chaos Marines. The new codex, in fact.
Girl: Take me now! Let me be the first of your ever-willing harem, my tyrant of love!
MasterSlowPoke wrote:
He doesn't seem to be quoted at all in either the Dakka or Warseer threads. He's mentioned in the header of the Dakka thread but I can't find what he said and when he said it. I suspect he just piggybacked onto Harry's hints.
Not quite.
Spoiler:
The thread you are linking to is one of the newer "Dread Fleet" threads which was started after the advert in the WD article was published.
In the originating rumor thread ("Septemeber Release" thread - so far lost to the pit of Warseers General Discussion I can't find it now :(), both Bramgaunt and Harry had said that a special release was coming out for September. Harry speculated that it could possibly be Blood Bowl.
This speculation started a new thread. Ghost's rumors came out in this thread when people were dicussing "Blood Bowl" as being the potential Secret Release. The thread can be found here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305049
Ghost21 wrote:
Satan wrote:So someone says... start speculating! (Or, preferably, spill the beans!)
Castiel wrote:Anyone else apprehensive about the bandwagoning we're might see with the new codex?
That's a little elitist, don't you think? You don't want to be a 40K hipster after all. "Huh, I was into Chaos before it was cool."
I don't mean it in that way, I just mean that I'm kind of worried about the flak that might get thrown our way like has happened to Grey Knights, SW etc.
And btw, I was hipster before it was cool!
Ah, see I was spared this. I play Sisters of Battle, primarily. Still waitin' for it to be cool... sigh.
H.B.M.C. wrote:The only reason the Templars got a Codex is because they had a very powerful sub-list in Codex: Armageddon, it became popular, and GW reckoned they could make more money by spinning them off into a full Codex. Graham McNeil wrote the Codex, it wasn't anywhere near as powerful as the Codex: Armageddon version, and no Graham McNeil no longer writes Codices. Make of that what you will.
I know. I was just responding to the implied argument that 2nd founding Chapters deserve a Codex less than the original Legions. Considering that all the founding members of the second founding were members of the earlier Legions, the history of the second founding Chapters extends as far back as that of the Legions.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:I know. I was just responding to the implied argument that 2nd founding Chapters deserve a Codex less than the original Legions. Considering that all the founding members of the second founding were members of the earlier Legions, the history of the second founding Chapters extends as far back as that of the Legions.
However it does seem a bit bizarre that the Imperials have 6 when half the bloody Legions went Chaos and have a grand total of....1, eh?
When we're getting to the point were 2nd/3rd/4th/etc foundings are getting codices of their own where 9 of the original Legions are still stuck having to fidget with something that is trying to accomodate Renegades as well it's just a bit silly.
AlmightyWalrus wrote:I know. I was just responding to the implied argument that 2nd founding Chapters deserve a Codex less than the original Legions. Considering that all the founding members of the second founding were members of the earlier Legions, the history of the second founding Chapters extends as far back as that of the Legions.
However it does seem a bit bizarre that the Imperials have 6 when half the bloody Legions went Chaos and have a grand total of....1, eh?
When we're getting to the point were 2nd/3rd/4th/etc foundings are getting codices of their own where 9 of the original Legions are still stuck having to fidget with something that is trying to accomodate Renegades as well it's just a bit silly.
Again, I don't think there's any difference between first and second founding Chapters; third and onward, fine they're not exclusively made up of those who fought during the Heresy, but the 2nd founding Chapters are.
MasterSlowPoke wrote:
He doesn't seem to be quoted at all in either the Dakka or Warseer threads. He's mentioned in the header of the Dakka thread but I can't find what he said and when he said it. I suspect he just piggybacked onto Harry's hints.
Not quite.
Spoiler:
The thread you are linking to is one of the newer "Dread Fleet" threads which was started after the advert in the WD article was published.
In the originating rumor thread ("Septemeber Release" thread - so far lost to the pit of Warseers General Discussion I can't find it now :(), both Bramgaunt and Harry had said that a special release was coming out for September. Harry speculated that it could possibly be Blood Bowl.
This speculation started a new thread. Ghost's rumors came out in this thread when people were dicussing "Blood Bowl" as being the potential Secret Release. The thread can be found here: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=305049
Ghost21 wrote:
Satan wrote:So someone says... start speculating! (Or, preferably, spill the beans!)
Ghost21 wrote:I see no ships *shifty*shifty*shifty*
Hmm... Which eye are you holding the telescope up to, I wonder?
You know, I'm sure there are people who would give their right arm for it to be Man O' War...
but how would i paint the little ships?
Ghost21 wrote:its okay im sure that the its fantasy but not x or y means its something totally unexpected cough cough ..... *shifty*
That's what I was looking for. Interesting. He does seem to be the first person to mention ships. He did seem a bit unsure of it here, though, and I can't find him being any more specific. It's possible that he got a lucky shot in the dark, and judging by how far off the mark he was with the Necron rumors (he totally discounted the Yakface and BoK rumors), I still don't think it's safe to put too much stock in what he hints at.
I think it's worth noting who the regular tipsters are. Ghost has stated he sees things very early in development. When Ghost is the first to post, his rumors are significantly subject to change, including shelving the ideas.
I think other extremely reliable tipsters like Harry and 75Hastings see things at later stages, closer to finished products and therefore more reliable.
I've read posts stating they talked to Ward at Gamesday where he said he was NOT writing Chaos and then looked in Phil Kelly's direction, implying he's the author. GO GO PK
People whose rumors point to "things very early in development" that are "significantly subject to change" should probably not be given much credence in any event. I mean, they could just post a lot of crap and get lucky a few times. It's not terribly hard to have a good guess at what's next and, once you've kept up with the rumor mill for a while, circulate the good ideas that experienced players are clamoring for as your "rumor." I mean, even a broken clock is right twice a day.
People said the same thing about Stickmonkey. If he sees things so far out that they are completely different from the final product, then there is no real need to pay him any heed.
Bwahahaahaaaa.I will reference this thread when all my wildest CSM dreams actually come true!
Plastic Dread? Raptors? !!!
Hopefully the codex has some of the more recent 'perks', like changing up the FOC, fancy pants special rules like DE and everything else recent, and an open champion system (which I doubt will happen, but it'd be cool)
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htj wrote:
Castiel wrote:Anyone else apprehensive about the bandwagoning we're might see with the new codex?
That's a little elitist, don't you think? You don't want to be a 40K hipster after all. "Huh, I was into Chaos before it was cool."
I'm totally going to do that
"Oh, you just picked them up? Yeah, I've been playing them since early 5th edition, back when we had that piece of crap codex. You don't know what I had to put up with back then. At least the plague marines were cool though"
Castiel wrote:Anyone else apprehensive about the bandwagoning we're might see with the new codex?
That's a little elitist, don't you think? You don't want to be a 40K hipster after all. "Huh, I was into Chaos before it was cool."
I'm totally going to do that
"Oh, you just picked them up? Yeah, I've been playing them since early 5th edition, back when we had that piece of crap codex. You don't know what I had to put up with back then. At least the plague marines were cool though"
BITCH PLEASE!
I was playing them since 3rd Edition ,when the MoK gave a +1 in Strength and Rubics Marines was totally immune to shoots with a Strength of 4 or less...
All this Minor Gods rumors...i call BS on it.
GW allready has difficulty's to make proper and interessting rules and equipments for 4 Gods...so adding 4 more...
Also the bit about Ward being into the Chaos Dex is also BS, Ward confirmed himself at a GD that he won't Work on the Chaos dex.
Phil Kelly is the one that works on it.
But its true that maybe given a few more years Ward fluff could be good or at least decent...,because i've read the Necron dex, and apart from a few things,the fluff is a bit better then it was with the GK's...
If anything, I'd expect "Minor Gods" to be some sort of singular generic "Other" option... Although GW doesn't seem to like stuff like that at the moment.
Samus_aran115 wrote:
"Oh, you just picked them up? Yeah, I've been playing them since early 5th edition, back when we had that piece of crap codex. You don't know what I had to put up with back then. At least the plague marines were cool though"
I was playing them since 3rd Edition ,when the MoK gave a +1 in Strength and Rubics Marines was totally immune to shoots with a Strength of 4 or less...
I'm always amazed at how young some of you must be.
Some more rumours from the interwebs, they're mostly from last month at the earliest, but they been mentioned on Dakka yet. Also be included in the first post:
I had a chance to get information straight from a codex designer. Chaos legions will be out in January or February dependant on necron sales, however it will probably be January. I don't know whether he was messing with me or not, so read and apply a lot of salt. He was straight with me about necrons being released in November. Chaos Legions are being taken back to their roots from the Horus Heresy, and it was a bit late due to the re-design of the fluff to fit in with 6ed.
I doubt they will get a release in Jan - Feb, but the rest of this sounds interesting.
Via Schell Chaos seems to be coming out around the new 40k rule book, which is rumoured for release next summer.
I believe someone started a rumour a couple of months ago, cannot remember who, stating that chaos would be the first (hardback???) release for the new rulebook.
The starter set(s) are Chaos and Dark Angels; this was the original rumour; however, this was quickly trashed by saying that Dark Angels would NOT be in the starter set. Chaos does seem to be there though.
Apparently Imperial Guard renegade armies will be a part of the Chaos release.
But which one? I would be dissapointed if cultists at least didn't feature in the Legions dex.
Via Ghost21 the first thing i have to say is that there are 2 chaos books planed one more renagade based the other legion based the legion one will be that, dudes who are 10000 years old kicking ass n taking names there "may" be a inquisitor whos gone bad but really expect new guys in the renegade one its lost and the damned influenced... but it has other options.... also 2012??...maybe at a push
I really hope that they choose to go with at least two codexes, IMHO there just woulden't be space in one book for both chaos marine legions, and other very dangerous followers of chaos such as traitor guard, renegades and heretic cultists. If GW take it in the same direction as they did with Warhammer fantasy, the 6th edition codexes will probably be in hardback and of course more expensive to buy. The legion codex is what I am waiting for more than anything else in 40K right now, as all the loyalist marine chapters right now are way too boring and bland both fluff and model wise for me to bother collecting them.
Bonde wrote:I really hope that they choose to go with at least two codexes, IMHO there just woulden't be space in one book for both chaos marine legions, and other very dangerous followers of chaos such as traitor guard, renegades and heretic cultists. If GW take it in the same direction as they did with Warhammer fantasy, the 6th edition codexes will probably be in hardback and of course more expensive to buy. The legion codex is what I am waiting for more than anything else in 40K right now, as all the loyalist marine chapters right now are way too boring and bland both fluff and model wise for me to bother collecting them.
I'd be perfectly fine with it being the size of the old Realm of Chaos books.
Sorry, I am somewhat new to 40K, so I have never experienced the chaos glory of old. The biggest and most complete codex I have ever seen in my time of 40K is the current vanilla marine codex, which is kind of sad, but I guess from all the nostalgia I am hearing, it can only get better from here.
Worglock wrote:I'd be perfectly fine with it being the size of the old Realm of Chaos books.
Be realistic Locky. Those days are gone. We might get a decent sized book - 5th Ed Marine size in thickness - but the idea of getting a RoC book or even a 2nd Ed Chaos book are long behind us. On the bright side, it will be in hardback and more expensive!
Balance wrote:If anything, I'd expect "Minor Gods" to be some sort of singular generic "Other" option... Although GW doesn't seem to like stuff like that at the moment.
When you look at the "Legions" four of them are specifically aligned to a major god, and one is truely undivided having members who worship all four... This leaves 3 other legions... and simply put, if GW's going to have a book about legions they can go into greater detail rather than "undivided". As it is the "undivided" option in the current codex is described as including the worship of lesser chaos deities. I see nothing wrong with naming those lesser chaos gods as matter of distinguishing the "undivided" legions; the greater degree of specifity in representing each legion distinctively almost demands it. It makes the undivided legions more viable and less reliant on the past gimmicks, that some considered cheesey.
Worglock wrote:I'd be perfectly fine with it being the size of the old Realm of Chaos books.
Be realistic Locky. Those days are gone. We might get a decent sized book - 5th Ed Marine size in thickness - but the idea of getting a RoC book or even a 2nd Ed Chaos book are long behind us. On the bright side, it will be in hardback and more expensive!
Via Ghost21 the first thing i have to say is that there are 2 chaos books planed
one more renagade based the other legion based the legion one will be that, dudes who are 10000 years old kicking ass n taking names
there "may" be a inquisitor whos gone bad but really expect new guys in the renegade one
its lost and the damned influenced... but it has other options....
also 2012??...maybe at a push
I don't get this. If they are making a distinction between legions vs renegades and marines vs cultists the cultists should go in the legion book because the legions are pre-Codex Astartes and thus more likely to fight in combined forces. More recent renegades should be more purely SM or more purely IG and not a mixture.
Via Ghost21 the first thing i have to say is that there are 2 chaos books planed
one more renagade based the other legion based the legion one will be that, dudes who are 10000 years old kicking ass n taking names
there "may" be a inquisitor whos gone bad but really expect new guys in the renegade one
its lost and the damned influenced... but it has other options....
also 2012??...maybe at a push
I don't get this. If they are making a distinction between legions vs renegades and marines vs cultists the cultists should go in the legion book because the legions are pre-Codex Astartes and thus more likely to fight in combined forces. More recent renegades should be more purely SM or more purely IG and not a mixture.
Really? I would have thought a Plague Marine warband or a Noise Marine cult would be pretty darn inclusive, considering they consist of 10000 year old battle brothers (even if some of them actually ages less in the EoT). When you're that old and that elite, I'm not sure you'd be looking for the company of cultist maggots, unless you're Alpha Legion.
Via Ghost21 the first thing i have to say is that there are 2 chaos books planed
one more renagade based the other legion based the legion one will be that, dudes who are 10000 years old kicking ass n taking names
there "may" be a inquisitor whos gone bad but really expect new guys in the renegade one
its lost and the damned influenced... but it has other options....
also 2012??...maybe at a push
I don't get this. If they are making a distinction between legions vs renegades and marines vs cultists the cultists should go in the legion book because the legions are pre-Codex Astartes and thus more likely to fight in combined forces. More recent renegades should be more purely SM or more purely IG and not a mixture.
Really? I would have thought a Plague Marine warband or a Noise Marine cult would be pretty darn inclusive, considering they consist of 10000 year old battle brothers (even if some of them actually ages less in the EoT). When you're that old and that elite, I'm not sure you'd be looking for the company of cultist maggots, unless you're Alpha Legion.
That and the legions (aside from alpha and word) operate primarily out of a hell dimension that is anathema to the survival of ordinary humans and do little to cultivate worship on imperial worlds.
I hope the Legions book isn't too god-centric. The Night Lords, for example, seem to eschew any worship at all -- or at least look down on those among them who do so. I'm not quite clear on how Perturabo's boys feel about it.
Manchu wrote:I hope the Legions book isn't too god-centric. The Night Lords, for example, seem to eschew any worship at all -- or at least look down on those among them who do so. I'm not quite clear on how Perturabo's boys feel about it.
If that is the case, I hope they use it as an opportunity to veer away from the 'evil for evil's sake' style of Chaos marines, and make them more individualistic types whose ruthlessness and wickedness stems from corruption of their own self-serving drive by the malevolence of the Chaos gods - or even, in fact, driven to acts of brutality and madness by the corrupting nature of the warp itself. Chaos marines as moustache twirling, cardboard cut out villains is dullsville.
His Master's Voice wrote:Really? I would have thought a Plague Marine warband or a Noise Marine cult would be pretty darn inclusive, considering they consist of 10000 year old battle brothers (even if some of them actually ages less in the EoT). When you're that old and that elite, I'm not sure you'd be looking for the company of cultist maggots, unless you're Alpha Legion.
That is actually a very good point. Not one my current army project would like, but a good point nonetheless.
I guess Zombies could be an option for a Death Guard list, but I can see how World Eaters or Black Legion wouldn't have much use for renegade guard stuff. What about Word Bearers? How do they feel about new followers?
Manchu wrote:I hope the Legions book isn't too god-centric. The Night Lords, for example, seem to eschew any worship at all -- or at least look down on those among them who do so. I'm not quite clear on how Perturabo's boys feel about it.
The 4th Ed CSM codex went this route, I'm pretty tired of it. I want CSM to be true children of Chaos once more. Not saying the Night Lords should be retconned to be like the Word Bearers (their relationship to Chaos should be kept the same and mentioned), but overall I want the Codex to feel like being about Chaos Hordes waging war for the Ruinous Powers and less Pirate Space Marines.
Manchu wrote:I hope the Legions book isn't too god-centric. The Night Lords, for example, seem to eschew any worship at all -- or at least look down on those among them who do so. I'm not quite clear on how Perturabo's boys feel about it.
The Iron Warriors are basically Space Agnostics and don't like Chaos all that much. If they mutate, they chop off said mutated limb and replace it with bionics. They don't worship the Chaos powers, but they hate the Imperium just the same so they work with them. I don't buy a word that ghost21 says so I sincerely doubt there will be two codices. I'd like to be surprised though.
Manchu wrote:I hope the Legions book isn't too god-centric. The Night Lords, for example, seem to eschew any worship at all -- or at least look down on those among them who do so. I'm not quite clear on how Perturabo's boys feel about it.
The 4th Ed CSM codex went this route, I'm pretty tired of it. I want CSM to be true children of Chaos once more. Not saying the Night Lords should be retconned to be like the Word Bearers (their relationship to Chaos should be kept the same and mentioned), but overall I want the Codex to feel like being about Chaos Hordes waging war for the Ruinous Powers and less Pirate Space Marines.
Why can't it be both? Why can't there be a book that is about traitors Space Marines that covers both angles? It's not like it'd require that much space, just reduce the OMG SO AWESOME bits and fill it with something a little more informative and interesting.
That being said, I'd love to see a Lost and the Damned book. Sigh, a man can dream.
Slightly proud of myself by not simply responding to Brother SRM's 'I'd like to be surprised though' with a post simply saying BOO!
htj wrote:
Slightly proud of myself by not simply responding to Brother SRM's 'I'd like to be surprised though' with a post simply saying BOO!
AH!
And I'd be super happy with a LatD codex too. Forgeworld has a few lists that are serviceable, but it's not the same as a dedicated codex from GW with all the model support that can bring.
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I don't get this. If they are making a distinction between legions vs renegades and marines vs cultists the cultists should go in the legion book because the legions are pre-Codex Astartes and thus more likely to fight in combined forces. More recent renegades should be more purely SM or more purely IG and not a mixture.
We don't know exactly along what lines they make the distinction. Legions might have "cultists" while Renegades have "traitors" similar yet distinctive delineations. One is more like turned IG than the other. So "cultists" might be a collection of strange characters while Inquisitorial henchmen, available to both groups while "Traitors" are only available to renegades.
Manchu wrote:I hope the Legions book isn't too god-centric. The Night Lords, for example, seem to eschew any worship at all -- or at least look down on those among them who do so. I'm not quite clear on how Perturabo's boys feel about it.
The Iron Warriors are basically Space Agnostics and don't like Chaos all that much. If they mutate, they chop off said mutated limb and replace it with bionics. They don't worship the Chaos powers, but they hate the Imperium just the same so they work with them. I don't buy a word that ghost21 says so I sincerely doubt there will be two codices. I'd like to be surprised though.
The way I always broke it down in order from most chaos to least:
Word Bearers: The true believers, worship all the gods all the time
WE, DG, TS, EC: Cults
Black Legion: Use chaos in all its forms, but ultimately see chaos as a tool for their own glory, not true believers like the word bearers
Night Lords: As the Night Lords are fractured it varies. Some don't like chaos but will dabble if necessary others have been fully corrupted
Iron Warriors: Don't worship, but like binding demons to vehicles, cybernetics, etc.
Alpha Legion: Use cultists for infiltration, subterfuge, but under the current background
His Master's Voice wrote:Really? I would have thought a Plague Marine warband or a Noise Marine cult would be pretty darn inclusive, considering they consist of 10000 year old battle brothers (even if some of them actually ages less in the EoT). When you're that old and that elite, I'm not sure you'd be looking for the company of cultist maggots, unless you're Alpha Legion.
That is actually a very good point. Not one my current army project would like, but a good point nonetheless.
I guess Zombies could be an option for a Death Guard list, but I can see how World Eaters or Black Legion wouldn't have much use for renegade guard stuff. What about Word Bearers? How do they feel about new followers?
Manchu wrote:The Night Lords, for example, seem to eschew any worship at all -- or at least look down on those among them who do so.
The Black Library books that feature them, yes, but I wouldn't put much faith in the Legion Codex having much if anything to do with the fluff in the Black Library books. If the studio wants Night Lords riding the Chaos-worship train, then that's what they'll be doing.
As I've said earlier, I just want Chaos troops to look warped and corrupted as opposed to being normal looking marines with some spiky bits. Ditto vehicles, especially rhinos and land raiders.
I agree with what people said earlier about Imperial troops having loads of codexi (proper plural of codex?) and chaos having none. Not like GW to miss a trick with loads of chaos books.
Do_I_Not_Like_That wrote:As I've said earlier, I just want Chaos troops to look warped and corrupted as opposed to being normal looking marines with some spiky bits. Ditto vehicles, especially rhinos and land raiders.
I agree with what people said earlier about Imperial troops having loads of codexi (proper plural of codex?) and chaos having none. Not like GW to miss a trick with loads of chaos books.
Agree x1000. Rhinos should be entirely different, as should land raiders.
GW will probably never change the CSM box, unfortunately. I would wholeheartedly repurchase my collection if they did. I hate a lot about the CSM box:
Shoulder trim is too blocky and undetailed. They could really do a lot more with it. Look at BA and GK. They have fantastic shoulder pads. inb4 "go buy legion shoulder pads", those are a pain to get, and some nice looking pads out of the box would be great
Leg trim, likewise. In addition, the molds seem to screw up the legs every single time, and the trim is absent in some places.
Heads aren't cool enough. Detail on par with the FW berserkers or even the possessed would be a vast improvement.
Bolters could be more daemonic and scary. They're really just loyalist bolters with skulls and junk on them. The fluff describes them as totally desecrated and virtually unrecognizable
Chainswords and bolt pistols are looking outdated, although the chaos chainswords are probabaly the most unique in the game, an I don't se much to improve beyond the shape of the blade
Ammo and grenade pouches are ugly, and make the model look too chunky. Something can be done with them. I actually like the look of IG grenades on them.
Certain arms are incompatible with each other. Just a matter of labeling the parts on sprue, I guess.
Via Ghost21 the first thing i have to say is that there are 2 chaos books planed
one more renagade based the other legion based the legion one will be that, dudes who are 10000 years old kicking ass n taking names
there "may" be a inquisitor whos gone bad but really expect new guys in the renegade one
its lost and the damned influenced... but it has other options....
also 2012??...maybe at a push
I don't get this. If they are making a distinction between legions vs renegades and marines vs cultists the cultists should go in the legion book because the legions are pre-Codex Astartes and thus more likely to fight in combined forces. More recent renegades should be more purely SM or more purely IG and not a mixture.
Really? I would have thought a Plague Marine warband or a Noise Marine cult would be pretty darn inclusive, considering they consist of 10000 year old battle brothers (even if some of them actually ages less in the EoT). When you're that old and that elite, I'm not sure you'd be looking for the company of cultist maggots, unless you're Alpha Legion.
That and the legions (aside from alpha and word) operate primarily out of a hell dimension that is anathema to the survival of ordinary humans and do little to cultivate worship on imperial worlds.
Actually there seems to be quite a bit of variation when it comes to the habitability of worlds in the EoT. Medrenguard seems livable in Dead Sky, Black Sun, and the Thousand Sons in Battle of the Fang utilize Spireguard.
Manchu wrote:I hope the Legions book isn't too god-centric. The Night Lords, for example, seem to eschew any worship at all -- or at least look down on those among them who do so.
Don't worry - I'm sure they will be retconned to worship some stupid batgod or something.
They just need to reissue Realms of Chaos- Slaves to Darkness and Lost and the Damned.
Add in the legion specifics as a side order to the main issue of developing a chaose army out of ragtag mutants and offcasts, with orks, and dark eldar mercs running around bartering for fresh souls...
Have some development rules for evolving your space marine evolve to demonhood....
I'm a book nerd, I hope it's hardcover! I would love for it to come out in January as well, and I could burn all my Xmas loot, Tax Money and Mortgage payments on Chaos stuff...
Abadabadoobaddon wrote:I don't get this. If they are making a distinction between legions vs renegades and marines vs cultists the cultists should go in the legion book because the legions are pre-Codex Astartes and thus more likely to fight in combined forces. More recent renegades should be more purely SM or more purely IG and not a mixture.
In my imagination, a chapter of around 1000 Astartes probably couldn't survive alone without the support of the Imperium or anyone else. They could flee only to be hunted down by both the Imperium and other Chaos followers. They would need mortals to protect them against dire threats like other Astartes, use as cannon fodder on supply raids, or infiltrate Imperial worlds due to the Chapter's small and gradually depleting numbers. A rag tag band of renegades, mutants and outcasts led by renegade Astartes would be really cool.
Elindiel wrote:All I ask from a new Dex is that Thousand Sons get some more options.....Oh, and maybe non metal models for a change.
Considering GW has actually been winning the war on hybrid models, I can definitely see some good looking plastics for them. Also, the next Imperial Armor is going to have Tzeentch in it if I recall, which means there's a possibility of some Forgeworld goodness.
Yes, and after giving them two wounds and such we can then proceed to make their Sorceror bullet bolters rending.
I agree, all I'm asking for is plastics of the TS marines. Hell, I'd even settle for a chapter upgrade kit. Actually, that might be a good idea for several chaos factions. Cool as they are, Forgeworld troop upgrade kits are not cheap.
Plastic Thousand Sons and Noise Marines are essentially given. They're phasing out hybrid kits as much as possible. Maybe they'll get the resin treatment, though I doubt it.
As much as TSons and Noise Marines deserve plastic kits, I admit to selfishly wanting to see the Berserker box redone; they just look goofy by comparison to even the regular Tactical squad box.
Manchu wrote:The Night Lords, for example, seem to eschew any worship at all -- or at least look down on those among them who do so.
The Black Library books that feature them, yes, but I wouldn't put much faith in the Legion Codex having much if anything to do with the fluff in the Black Library books. If the studio wants Night Lords riding the Chaos-worship train, then that's what they'll be doing.
Yeah, there is no question as to what trumps what. But their Chapter Approved had them sneering at the Gods, too. And before you say it, I realize that even star gods can be shattered into mere shards by the true Ruinous Powers.
Anung Un Rama wrote:How about upgrade sprues like they did for Black Templars and Dark Angels, with Legion specific Torsos, shoulder pads and prefered weapons?
Might as well put some legs on it and you have a full sprue.
Only Templars had an upgrade sprue, BTW. DA had a full sprue.
Worglock wrote:I'd be perfectly fine with it being the size of the old Realm of Chaos books.
Be realistic Locky. Those days are gone. We might get a decent sized book - 5th Ed Marine size in thickness - but the idea of getting a RoC book or even a 2nd Ed Chaos book are long behind us. On the bright side, it will be in hardback and more expensive!
And you'll still buy it before feeling bad about it.
As long as it beats the warhams out of some fools, I'll be ok. How about you?
No I won't buy it. I think the last Codex I bought was... Cruddace's Guard Codex. Yeah. That was the last one I bought.
But yeah, good job having another dig at me rather than actually discussing the topic at hand. I'd say something cute like 'never change!'... but it'd be a redundant statement.
Anung Un Rama wrote:How about upgrade sprues like they did for Black Templars and Dark Angels, with Legion specific Torsos, shoulder pads and prefered weapons?
Might as well put some legs on it and you have a full sprue.
Only Templars had an upgrade sprue, BTW. DA had a full sprue.
And how the quality did change.
SWs had the first 'upgrade' sprue in 3rd edition.
Then BTs improved on it in 4th.
Then DAs got a 'true' sprue.
And then we got the most recent Space Wolf offering.
I don't think they're going for the 'upgrade' kits as an approach anymore. Not after seeing that progress. We might see resin/metal upgrade kits similar to the bits packs perhaps.
Manchu wrote:The Night Lords, for example, seem to eschew any worship at all -- or at least look down on those among them who do so.
The Black Library books that feature them, yes, but I wouldn't put much faith in the Legion Codex having much if anything to do with the fluff in the Black Library books. If the studio wants Night Lords riding the Chaos-worship train, then that's what they'll be doing.
Why not just get ADB to write the Fluff for the new Chaos dex? He's kicked butt with the NL's and Word Bearers so far. One of his future HH book's is going to be World Eaters...the man does know how to write good fiction.
I would love to see a 'Legion' codex and a 'Renegades/LatD' style of books. Lots of units and be sold for both books. Nice way to personalize your Chaos army a'la Realms of Chaos books. Hell they should just reissue the RoC books and be done with it... rules and all how's that for chaotic =o]
Manchu wrote:The Night Lords, for example, seem to eschew any worship at all -- or at least look down on those among them who do so.
The Black Library books that feature them, yes, but I wouldn't put much faith in the Legion Codex having much if anything to do with the fluff in the Black Library books. If the studio wants Night Lords riding the Chaos-worship train, then that's what they'll be doing.
Why not just get ADB to write the Fluff for the new Chaos dex? He's kicked butt with the NL's and Word Bearers so far. One of his future HH book's is going to be World Eaters...the man does know how to write good fiction.
I would love to see a 'Legion' codex and a 'Renegades/LatD' style of books. Lots of units and be sold for both books. Nice way to personalize your Chaos army a'la Realms of Chaos books. Hell they should just reissue the RoC books and be done with it... rules and all how's that for chaotic =o]
You, sir, have just won a gold star for the best idea of the day!
Seeing as the new trend is putting out sprues that can be 2 or even 3 different things, i think its likely that there will be a thousand sons/noise marine set out eventually. they look enough like each other to fit such a set wouldn't you agree?
tarnish wrote:Seeing as the new trend is putting out sprues that can be 2 or even 3 different things, i think its likely that there will be a thousand sons/noise marine set out eventually. they look enough like each other to fit such a set wouldn't you agree?
Mmm. The trend may be for that but to be honest It's a bit hit and miss as I'd prefer my Slaanesh to be mutated, leather and spike clad sensation crazed loons rather than what is essentially supposed to be rank upon rank of spirit possessed suits of uniform power armour. I can't easily imagine dual-kits for different Powers...
tarnish wrote:Seeing as the new trend is putting out sprues that can be 2 or even 3 different things, i think its likely that there will be a thousand sons/noise marine set out eventually. they look enough like each other to fit such a set wouldn't you agree?
Yes, I can see those being combined. But not much else currently in the Codex. Certainly not Nurgle stuff.
FabricatorGeneralMike wrote:Why not just get ADB to write the Fluff for the new Chaos dex? He's kicked butt with the NL's and Word Bearers so far. One of his future HH book's is going to be World Eaters...the man does know how to write good fiction.
If only they did that! In an ideal world the Black Library authors would be writing the background for every codex, and games designers such as Ward would only be working on the rules. It's unconventional how professional rules designers are tasked to write literature as well; perhaps because of GW's budget cuts.
H.B.M.C. wrote:No I won't buy it. I think the last Codex I bought was... Cruddace's Guard Codex. Yeah. That was the last one I bought.
But yeah, good job having another dig at me rather than actually discussing the topic at hand. I'd say something cute like 'never change!'... but it'd be a redundant statement.
Ironic, you saying 'never change'. Your constant "GW does everything wrong again" posts may as well be amended to every OP regarding GW news of ANY sort. I've come to expect depressing droll posts whenever I see the 360 Commissar avatar, it's getting really REALLY old dude. We get it. You think everything GW does is wrong, and they're awful and there's no reason to buy any of their products. Their marketing is the WORST you've ever seen and all you expect is the absolute dopiest business moves from them. We got it, move on. Play Warmachine or something, your attitude is tired as can be.
Manchu wrote:The Night Lords, for example, seem to eschew any worship at all -- or at least look down on those among them who do so.
The Black Library books that feature them, yes, but I wouldn't put much faith in the Legion Codex having much if anything to do with the fluff in the Black Library books. If the studio wants Night Lords riding the Chaos-worship train, then that's what they'll be doing.
Yeah, there is no question as to what trumps what. But their Chapter Approved had them sneering at the Gods, too. And before you say it, I realize that even star gods can be shattered into mere shards by the true Ruinous Powers.
And the Iron Hands' Chapter Approved had them not having chapter masters and not holding Marneus Calgar as their spiritual liege.
Let me offer the most polite response I can muster at 2am in the morning...
Disarray wrote:We get it. You think everything GW does is wrong, and they're awful and there's no reason to buy any of their products.
Please don't put words in my mouth. It speaks more to you not reading my posts than my own views.
I've stated time and time again what I like when it comes to GW products. For instance, the single-frame plastic characters that are beginning to sprout up in the Warhammer range. I think they're fantastic, long overdue, and a trend I hope both continues and continues into 40K. I think the Dark Eldar range is wonderful. I very much like a lot of the new Necron models. I think the plastic Grey Knight Terminators were great. I thought the expansion of the Tomb Kings was inspired. There are some great new Ogre models, especially that Gutsman guy or whatever his name is - the executioner with the chain scythe thingy. I think the models and the background are simply stunning.
"Play Warmachine" is quite a - I have to say it - stupid alternative. I don't like Warmachine. The universe does nothing for me (other than Cryx models, which I think are stunning). Why would I play something I don't like? How does that make any sense? And, once again, I have to remind yet another poster that "not liking GW" =/= "not liking 40K". When will people realise that? Is the distinction (or the separation) of the two so difficult to grasp?
So, as I said a moment ago, don't put words in my mouth.
Oh, and GW don't have the worst marketing. In order to have the worst marketing they would first have to have marketing.
are tentative...
brilliant!"
