Pilau Rice wrote:Like what we have been given so far, looks to be quite interesting and no mention of take Slaanesh Lord to unlock Noise Marines. I hope this is the case.

Hopefully, Daemonic Possession will also grant a 5+ Inv, if it is still an upgrade.

There is a mention of that. All cult troops are elite, and to take them as troops, you need to take a HQ with the corresponding mark.

makes sense.

Hopefully they will manage to even out the cult troops to make Emps Kids and 1k sons more deirable and Plague Marines less of a Must Take in every game.

I'm looking forward to the new codex.....trying to convince the wife to let me get an iPad so i can get the DigiDex.

*lights cigar* well gentlemen, it was nice being in the shadows for a while but... IT'S TIME FOR SOME CHAOS!!!!

VermGho5t wrote:This is worrisome, and pisses me off at the same time, that they don't have a solid release plan hashed out this late in the release cycle. I am probably more pissed because I was excited for new rules and models for the main army I play. Have they ever done this release schedule waffling gak in the past?

What?
GW don't announce their release schedule, why are you assuming they have changed or don't have it planned?
Because some rumours said CSM codex in August?
What makes you think they have changed their release schedule?

To be fair, the rumours all said "Chaos in August". And it looks like we are getting Chaos Daemons....so the rumours were half right.

Peronally i thnk half the rumours tha are leaked are put out there on purpose by GW in liue of a marketting
department.
Who needs an advertising campaign when you have an interweb full of rumour-hungry forums to advertise for you?

Cerebrium wrote:

Pilau Rice wrote:Like what we have been given so far, looks to be quite interesting and no mention of take Slaanesh Lord to unlock Noise Marines. I hope this is the case.

Hopefully, Daemonic Possession will also grant a 5+ Inv, if it is still an upgrade.

There is a mention of that. All cult troops are elite, and to take them as troops, you need to take a HQ with the corresponding mark.

Oh yeah, I missed that.

Poop ...

Mark of undivided I guess then

Abadon has all 4 marks doesn't he? He would be quite useful for taking all the different cults together, assuming you wanted them all anyway.

edit: I seems odd that the only release next month will be daemos. Surely there will be other things coming out. Should we keep our hopes up for the flyers or should be ditch that too?

i'm not gonna lie i squealed like a girl when i saw PLASTIC plague bearers. I now will do my demons. OH HAPPY DAY!!! Also those prices are not bad to be honest.

So all this means no Tau flier this month? :(

EDIT: I can't math

Phragonist wrote:

azreal13 wrote:You can't have exactly 60 options randomly generated on D6 by my reckoning (closest I can reckon is 66, roll d6 for list and 2d6 for options) so there is hope for some element of choice.

um... yes you can. Roll 10d6. The chart goes from 6 to 66.

A chart that went from 6 to 66 would be 61 options

I'm gonna guess it isn't 60 options, but an old-style d66 chart, like in Realm of Chaos/Lost and the Damned. So roll a d6 for tens and another for ones.

Updated to reflect split to two threads.

I gotta say I am super disappointed 40k needs a new codex now its been ages. One more month with no army updates this is getting really lame.

MDizzle wrote:I gotta say I am super disappointed 40k needs a new codex now its been ages. One more month with no army updates this is getting really lame.

Umm. Chaos Daemons are getting a mini-dex add-on for their codex. Chin up!

Video of the new WD.

Last page shows a dark angel fighting a chaos space marine, Rumours of the starter set.

The new daemons stuff does look very nice


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lECkhAw3qQw&feature=g-u-u

That should be added to the OP. New plague bearers don't look all that great and idk if I like the flamer but the Salaanesh chariot looked really cool.

That's been added to the Daemon Thread that Kroot has. We're trying to separate them.

Wow... Soulgrinders in WHFB...LOL!

Nurglings look awesome, I'm glad to see they continued their throwback look on the Demons with the new Plaguebearers. They look great!

SlaveToDorkness wrote:Wow... Soulgrinders in WHFB...LOL!

Why not? They brought random charges, challenges, Look Out SIr! etc. to 40k. Who said fighting medieval fantasy and futuristic battle need different things?

Also, the warp works in mysterious ways.

gilljoy wrote:Video of the new WD.

Last page shows a dark angel fighting a chaos space marine, Rumours of the starter set.

The new daemons stuff does look very nice


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lECkhAw3qQw&feature=g-u-u

Screengrabs for the screengrab god!

That is a ton of nurglings on that base... rofl. Loving the new Nurgle stuff... wonder what changes with the Flamers in 40k?

So that last page, is it for the Starter of DA vs. Chaos, or just Chaos or just DA? I cannot quite tell from the shaky camera.

Its a pity I dislike Slannesh and Nurgle cas they are some sweet models, bravo GW.

The only thing I am really struggling with is accepting that picture of the fantasy army with a soulgrinder with defiler legs, whats the explanation for the most advanced mechanical construction belonging to a demon?

Edit: It looks like a dark angel librarian? Not sure but I am certain the symbols on him are dark angels.

@Brother SRM: I reposted those in the Daemon's thread.

I love it because I love Slaanesh, sadly I play Chaos Space Marines and these wonderful toys will not see my army outside of Daemon allies. However, my wife plays Daemons. Perhaps I can get her to find more love for Slaanesh in her forces.

Hmm so it basically confirms starter set next month. Now to have a guess at the chaos release.

Have they ever done a codex and starter set release before?

unmercifulconker wrote:Hmm so it basically confirms starter set next month. Now to have a guess at the chaos release.

Have they ever done a codex and starter set release before?

If they have not, I hope they do this time.

Me too It would be so epic but be so harsh on my moneys, so so harsh. Unless I can some how sell a load of gear on diablo 3 for £100 even though I have only made £4 since the rmah came out, I shall find a way.

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:

kronk wrote:The ability to take cults as troops with a non-unique warlord makes me happy. I didn't want every Berserker list to be Kharne and friends!

Battle Brother Ambrosius wrote:
I agree. We BT players can still offer a solid fight to our opponents, with our unique drop pod rules and everything,

I'm going a little off-topic here, but what unique drop pod rules are you talking about?

Drop Pod Assault, which allows half of our Pods to arrive simultaneously.

All of the Space Marine drop pods bring in half on turn 1 now, including Black Templars.

The Black Templars Codex allowed you to put them all in reserve and then roll for them as normal reserves, preventing you from getting 1/2 on turn 1. However, the newest FAQ puts the Black Templars on the same footing as every other codex with Drop Pods: 1/2 on turn 1.

Rivet wrote:If they have not, I hope they do this time.

Hope is the first step on the road to disappointment. I doubt they would release two things at the same time. GW isn't one to break their MO.

That is too bad about CSM getting pushed back.

If they really do release the starter before the codex that will be really dumb imo. I can't think of a time they released a unit that did not have rules, individual one off characters are different.

If these are the releases that we are getting without a codex I can't wait for the proper Daemons book.

From that back page I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Angels drop first. I know that isn't what is rumoured, but Daemons weren't exactly on the cards for August so...

Medium of Death wrote:If these are the releases that we are getting without a codex I can't wait for the proper Daemons book.

From that back page I wouldn't be surprised if Dark Angels drop first. I know that isn't what is rumoured, but Daemons weren't exactly on the cards for August so...

Yes and no. Chaos was on the books for August, and the rumors started coming for CSM, forgetting about the true powers of Chaos. Everyone got thrown for a loop, and I'm happier with this one honestly. Bring me new toys!!

Annoying to wait an extra 2 months, but at least we still have CSM in sight.

I'm going to cross my fingers on the possibility of a starter set and chaos codex release in the same month. They have to realize that if they have a backlog problem they're just kicking their problem down the road if they don't do something about it.

kronk wrote:All of the Space Marine drop pods bring in half on turn 1 now, including Black Templars.

The Black Templars Codex allowed you to put them all in reserve and then roll for them as normal reserves, preventing you from getting 1/2 on turn 1. However, the newest FAQ puts the Black Templars on the same footing as every other codex with Drop Pods: 1/2 on turn 1.

If I'm not mistaken DA drop pods don't arrive on turn 1.

I'm a bit disappointed actually, I was hoping for some love for Iron warriors or other non-cult chaos space marine legions...And the fact that there are no new independent characters, Abaddon still gets killed by his daemon weapon, and no one else gets eternal warrior.

What we seem to be getting is nice, but Im sure the next Ward-dex will trample over us.

walledin wrote:That is too bad about CSM getting pushed back.

If they really do release the starter before the codex that will be really dumb imo. I can't think of a time they released a unit that did not have rules, individual one off characters are different.

*sigh*
You do realise that both the 4th & 5th ed core sets included a little wee booklet with all the profiles & rules for the models in the box, don't you?!

You don't try and sell a brand new player, (espeically one who's the target age GW catters too), a core set + hobby starter set + codex/army book + carry case + additional crap all in one go... You try and sell 'em just the absolute basics which is core set + hooby starter pack + primer and then arrange times for them to come back into your store for hands-on lessons teaching them how to clean, prep & prime their models properly, the basics of painting, etc...
Once they've got their core set done, then GW tries to add to their collection at which the codex is the first "must-buy" item.

At least, that's how we ran an almost-successful GW store despite our mall's best efforts to kill us every other week! (the endless fires, spills & evactuations kinda fethed us in the end though )

Cyrax wrote:

kronk wrote:All of the Space Marine drop pods bring in half on turn 1 now, including Black Templars.

The Black Templars Codex allowed you to put them all in reserve and then roll for them as normal reserves, preventing you from getting 1/2 on turn 1. However, the newest FAQ puts the Black Templars on the same footing as every other codex with Drop Pods: 1/2 on turn 1.

If I'm not mistaken DA drop pods don't arrive on turn 1.

The "drop pod assault" rule is a general rule for Drop Pods unless the entry in the DA codex specifically said "cannot preform Drop Pod Assault"

Even if the CSM are not next month, atleast the starter set will give us new rules for the cultists and assuming the guys on the front cover of the rulebook are chosen, no doubt thats what they will probably look like in model and my eyes will melt from such glory. Either way, next month will have some good chaos love.

kronk wrote:All of the Space Marine drop pods bring in half on turn 1 now, including Black Templars.

The Black Templars Codex allowed you to put them all in reserve and then roll for them as normal reserves, preventing you from getting 1/2 on turn 1. However, the newest FAQ puts the Black Templars on the same footing as every other codex with Drop Pods: 1/2 on turn 1.

Oops, didn't know that. My bad.

Can we be done with the Drop Pod rules? I think most of us want CSM rumors/discussion in the CSM rumors thread. BT pods are now in line with all other DPs except DA who have the DPs rules affecting terminators instead (half terminator squads DS 1st turn, pods DS as normal). Great, now that's done...let's go back to chaos.

Can't wait to have cheaper NMs and I'll be happy to see changes in Lucius's rules (please??)

timetowaste85 wrote:Can't wait to have cheaper NMs and I'll be happy to see changes in Lucius's rules (please??)

I agree. I didn't feel his rules for his armor properly represented his fluff really well. What I'd like to see is something like Necron's WBB or Justicar Anval Thawn's ressurection rule, but placing Lucius where the model that slew him was and removing that model as a casualty. Of course, that's also highly imba (hay! imma challengez u, <insert big special character i.e. Abaddon, Draigo, C'tan...>. o wait, you killd me. nvm, next turn you die and I respawn lulz) Oh well.

I don't see why not-he becomes a target that has to be dealt with by shooting, you need to avoid him in CC. I mean, Necron Lords are something you don't wanna meet in CC because MSS will rip you to pieces. How about the Brotherhood Champion who just has to hit you if he dies (usually on a 3+) and he kills you outright too. Or Lukas the Trickster with his stasis bomb. It's perfectly acceptable for Lucius to join their ranks as a character-killer.

I'm just worried as an Undivided player. Cult stuff are getting cool marks etc. If they try and palm us off with bloody MORALE REROLLS again, I'm going to lose it.

Cerebrium wrote:I'm just worried as an Undivided player. Cult stuff are getting cool marks etc. If they try and palm us off with bloody MORALE REROLLS again, I'm going to lose it.

Rumor was 4 marks, 5 icons different from each other.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:I'm just worried as an Undivided player. Cult stuff are getting cool marks etc. If they try and palm us off with bloody MORALE REROLLS again, I'm going to lose it.

Rumor was 4 marks, 5 icons different from each other.

And units could have both, in different combinations.

Marks and Icons are both purchasable by most units. That means you have five new Icons and the same four marks, in which units can have a combination of two. This is a list of the USRs and stat bonus possible.

Fearless
FnP
+1 T
+1 Invul Save
Rage
Soul Blaze
Furious Charge
Fear
+1 I

The only question is which of these go with which marks and which go with the different icons. It also raises the possibility that if you can mix and match the marks and icons, the icons themselves won't be god-specific. 9 options, 9 legions... anyone think that GW will simply imply that particular legion purists use only one choice? This wouldn't necessarily be in any absolute terms, just maybe recommended ones. Maybe this is GW's attempt to deemphasize legion by saying non-legion and ex-legion are more non-conformists to the cult-ritual and modus operandi of their former legion.

Plastic Plague-bearers finally sighted *swoons* now my life is complete!

Cheaper Noise Marines make me happy. Would hope they also drop the price of the Blast Master.
Regardless, I still want vehicle sonic weaponry. (I bet this is too far out of the realm of possibility though)
Looking forward to making some Slaanesh Cultists (yay conversion time!)

I see no marks giving extra CC attacks, so it could be that the Rage USR will be replacing the extra +1A from the khorne mark. Still remains to be seen, though.

By now I'm mostly curious about the design 'theme' we are going to see. If CSM is to be a high-value, low-number army like GKs, we need to see quite a boost in rules, statlines and weaponry. If they are going to be skilled generalists like vanilla marines, prices need to drop and the line needs more variety in vehicles. So far, it seems that Kelly may have tried to onclude both options, which is a gamble. More power to him if it works!

Marks and Icons are both purchasable by most units. That means you have five new Icons and the same four marks, in which units can have a combination of two. This is a list of the USRs and stat bonus possible.

Fearless
FnP
+1 T
+1 Invul Save
Rage
Soul Blaze
Furious Charge
Fear
+1 I

My thoughts:
Nurgle: FnP and +1 T
Khorne: Rage and Furious Charge
Slaanesh: Fear and +1 I
Tzeentch: Soul Blaze and +1 Invul
Undivided: Fearless

SpitfireArsonist wrote:
Undivided: Fearless

That's kinda like a morale reroll, right? Undivided should feel right at home!

Back OT, the Daemons were just a rules packet in WD. Who's to say that August doesn't still hold a Codex release for CSM? Yeah, no new models yet, but that's just because we already have most of what we'd need anyways (marines, tanks, Defilers, etc). We'll just have to salviate for a few months on the new units (or make counts-as) while they decide when to release any new models we get (like that Dragon).

SpitfireArsonist wrote:

Marks and Icons are both purchasable by most units. That means you have five new Icons and the same four marks, in which units can have a combination of two. This is a list of the USRs and stat bonus possible.

Fearless
FnP
+1 T
+1 Invul Save
Rage
Soul Blaze
Furious Charge
Fear
+1 I

My thoughts:
Nurgle: FnP and +1 T
Khorne: Rage and Furious Charge
Slaanesh: Fear and +1 I
Tzeentch: Soul Blaze and +1 Invul
Undivided: Fearless

HEEELLLLL to the naw! So not only are the cult troops moved from troops to the elite slot (which should be more powerful than troops), but they get nerfed as well? Right now all the cult troops are fearless. How could they move them off of being troops to elites, and nerf them by taking away fearless? They should keep fearless as well as getting more buffs for becoming elite. I'm not going to play with non-fearless troops, so if the new CSM codex nerfs their troops that hard I guess I'll have to start playing blood angels


But seriously I think it will be similar to how it is in this current codex. The cult troops have more benefits than the marked basic CSMs. So the basic CSM troops can take 2 of the above list, but the cults will get 3 or more. Kindof like how currently basic CSMs can take mark of nurgle for +1T, but they dont get all the benefits plague marines have.

Phragonist wrote:

SpitfireArsonist wrote:

Marks and Icons are both purchasable by most units. That means you have five new Icons and the same four marks, in which units can have a combination of two. This is a list of the USRs and stat bonus possible.

Fearless
FnP
+1 T
+1 Invul Save
Rage
Soul Blaze
Furious Charge
Fear
+1 I

My thoughts:
Nurgle: FnP and +1 T
Khorne: Rage and Furious Charge
Slaanesh: Fear and +1 I
Tzeentch: Soul Blaze and +1 Invul
Undivided: Fearless

HEEELLLLL to the naw! So not only are the cult troops moved from troops to the elite slot (which should be more powerful than troops), but they get nerfed as well? Right now all the cult troops are fearless. How could they move them off of being troops to elites, and nerf them by taking away fearless? They should keep fearless as well as getting more buffs for becoming elite. I'm not going to play with non-fearless troops, so if the new CSM codex nerfs their troops that hard I guess I'll have to start playing blood angels


But seriously I think it will be similar to how it is in this current codex. The cult troops have more benefits than the marked basic CSMs. So the basic CSM troops can take 2 of the above list, but the cults will get 3 or more. Kindof like how currently basic CSMs can take mark of nurgle for +1T, but they dont get all the benefits plague marines have.

I should have been more clear. I meant to say that I believe those stats would be base for each legion, and that fearless would be a base stat for all CSM regardless of god affiliation, or elite status.

One thing that's worrying me is that since leadership is going down we need Fearless since we don't have ATSKNF... CSM troops better be cheaper than vanilla. Fearless is better, yes, but you know it's gonna be a cost heavy icon.

unmercifulconker wrote:
Edit: It looks like a dark angel librarian? Not sure but I am certain the symbols on him are dark angels.

This picture is from Codexark Angels librarian entry, page 39.

No cult terminators would still be a dealbreaker for me. As far as I am concerned, their inclusion would be a no-brainer. Who the hell wants two kinds of obliterators?

warpcrafter wrote:No cult terminators would still be a dealbreaker for me. As far as I am concerned, their inclusion would be a no-brainer. Who the hell wants two kinds of obliterators?

I'm hoping marks/icons may get as close to giving termis the same fle and rules of cult troops as to make the difference immaterial.

But yeah, two kinds of Oblits is the answer to a question no one was asking. Was anyone ever that keen on charging them forward? As if CSM heavy support wasn't crowded enough. The skeptic in me fears a money-grubbing finecast scheme here. "Sure, zerkers got a nerf and chaos termis are meh, but you can still load your land raider with the new assault oblits and beat faces in! Only $41 for a box of two!"

Sephyr wrote:

But yeah, two kinds of Oblits is the answer to a question no one was asking. Was anyone ever that keen on charging them forward? As if CSM heavy support wasn't crowded enough. The skeptic in me fears a money-grubbing finecast scheme here. "Sure, zerkers got a nerf and chaos termis are meh, but you can still load your land raider with the new assault oblits and beat faces in! Only $41 for a box of two!"

Nothing ever said they were both heavy support choices. The only reason I could see GW make a split is to do something much like what happened when SM veterans became vanguard and sternguard... two more specialized units filling more distinctive roles in different FOC slots.

Sephyr wrote:
But yeah, two kinds of Oblits is the answer to a question no one was asking. Was anyone ever that keen on charging them forward? As if CSM heavy support wasn't crowded enough. The skeptic in me fears a money-grubbing finecast scheme here. "Sure, zerkers got a nerf and chaos termis are meh, but you can still load your land raider with the new assault oblits and beat faces in! Only $41 for a box of two!"

I'm going to go out on a limb and assume they're making one plastic kit that can make both Obliterators and the close combat variant, since GW loves combo kits these days. Shelf space is at a premium.

warpcrafter wrote:No cult terminators would still be a dealbreaker for me. As far as I am concerned, their inclusion would be a no-brainer. Who the hell wants two kinds of obliterators?

Dear GW,

I know that in the past I've asked for cult terminators and legion rules and maybe even Thousand Sons sorcerors with better psychic powers than your run-of-the-mill punk librarian or rune priest. But upon further reflection I've changed my mind. Instead of all that stuff I wanted before could you please split obliterators into 2 different units and only let me use half their weapon morphs in each unit? That'd be rad.

Thanks,
Abadabadoobaddon

I hope the cult troops get some small bonus for being selected in the particular gods favored number. Else (apart fro "fluff") why wouldn't you always got for max unit number.

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:No cult terminators would still be a dealbreaker for me. As far as I am concerned, their inclusion would be a no-brainer. Who the hell wants two kinds of obliterators?

Dear GW,

I know that in the past I've asked for cult terminators and legion rules and maybe even Thousand Sons sorcerors with better psychic powers than your run-of-the-mill punk librarian or rune priest. But upon further reflection I've changed my mind. Instead of all that stuff I wanted before could you please split obliterators into 2 different units and only let me use half their weapon morphs in each unit? That'd be rad.

Thanks,
Abadabadoobaddon

See, Abadabatherestofyourname, this is where you're going wrong. It is not for you, the consumer, to demand a better product so that GW can best its industry rivals in a competitive marketplace and thereby secure your freely spent money. That would be some kind of crazy, mixed-up bizarro world where companies succeed based upon how effectively they fulfill the demands of their customers/clients, and competitive pressures from similar companies help push all companies to out-do their competitors in serving their customers' needs, and moreover, do so in a fashion produces goods and services cheaper and/or of higher quality. I mean, what the heck kind of world would THAT be like?

No, Free Market Capitalism is all about private or publicly held companies doing whatever satisfies their every fleeting, quixotic whim, and consumers are simply there to underwrite such behavior with their hard-earned money, without questioning the companies to whom they are exchanging their money for goods without daring to even imagine that companies would, or even should stop to consider customers' desires and preferences.

I mean, it's not like you're their boss or something! They're GAME DESIGNERS. If they want to make up new units to fill non-existant needs, that's their right, and you are obliged to continue paying them to fulfill their OWN needs. Haven't you ever taken a basic economics class?

aka_mythos wrote: Nothing ever said they were both heavy support choices. The only reason I could see GW make a split is to do something much like what happened when SM veterans became vanguard and sternguard... two more specialized units filling more distinctive roles in different FOC slots.

They are definitely not going to be troops, and being lumbering termi-armored monsters, it's probably Heavy Support or Elites.

Elites will be even more crowded than Heavy Support now that cult troops are elites until unlocked by the warlord. So it's 3 slots for terminators, Possessed, Chosen, CC oblits, cult troops.

I wonder if they'll be able to morph storm shields, though. Though I think I know the answer to that one.

I just have to say that some books are a lot more crowded than ours. Want to check out a book with a billion options for HS. Guard. They have so many tank variants that its stupid. I think chaos needs a few more options in every slot except the HQ slot, and no slot needs it more than fast attack. Right now fast attack slots for Chaos suck.

catharsix wrote:

Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:No cult terminators would still be a dealbreaker for me. As far as I am concerned, their inclusion would be a no-brainer. Who the hell wants two kinds of obliterators?

Dear GW,

I know that in the past I've asked for cult terminators and legion rules and maybe even Thousand Sons sorcerors with better psychic powers than your run-of-the-mill punk librarian or rune priest. But upon further reflection I've changed my mind. Instead of all that stuff I wanted before could you please split obliterators into 2 different units and only let me use half their weapon morphs in each unit? That'd be rad.

Thanks,
Abadabadoobaddon

See, Abadabatherestofyourname, this is where you're going wrong. It is not for you, the consumer, to demand a better product so that GW can best its industry rivals in a competitive marketplace and thereby secure your freely spent money. That would be some kind of crazy, mixed-up bizarro world where companies succeed based upon how effectively they fulfill the demands of their customers/clients, and competitive pressures from similar companies help push all companies to out-do their competitors in serving their customers' needs, and moreover, do so in a fashion produces goods and services cheaper and/or of higher quality. I mean, what the heck kind of world would THAT be like?

No, Free Market Capitalism is all about private or publicly held companies doing whatever satisfies their every fleeting, quixotic whim, and consumers are simply there to underwrite such behavior with their hard-earned money, without questioning the companies to whom they are exchanging their money for goods without daring to even imagine that companies would, or even should stop to consider customers' desires and preferences.

I mean, it's not like you're their boss or something! They're GAME DESIGNERS. If they want to make up new units to fill non-existant needs, that's their right, and you are obliged to continue paying them to fulfill their OWN needs. Haven't you ever taken a basic economics class?

Excuse me, but you buy the crap therefore they don't need to listen to your complaints. If you hate what they do, don't buy it. That is the ONLY way they will listen. Till the complaints outweigh the sales, this is how it will work.
As to the no cult termies, fine, I dealt with it for years, I'll deal with it for more. I get Zombie army lead by Typhus. I could careless about other options at this point.

catharsix wrote:

No, Free Market Capitalism is all about private or publicly held companies doing whatever satisfies their every fleeting, quixotic whim, and consumers are simply there to underwrite such behavior with their hard-earned money, without questioning the companies to whom they are exchanging their money for goods without daring to even imagine that companies would, or even should stop to consider customers' desires and preferences.

You work for a UK utilities company, don't you?

Sephyr wrote:

aka_mythos wrote: Nothing ever said they were both heavy support choices. The only reason I could see GW make a split is to do something much like what happened when SM veterans became vanguard and sternguard... two more specialized units filling more distinctive roles in different FOC slots.

They are definitely not going to be troops, and being lumbering termi-armored monsters, it's probably Heavy Support or Elites.

Elites will be even more crowded than Heavy Support now that cult troops are elites until unlocked by the warlord. So it's 3 slots for terminators, Possessed, Chosen, CC oblits, cult troops.

I wonder if they'll be able to morph storm shields, though. Though I think I know the answer to that one.

I read somewhere that they'd be jump. So hopefully they'll be fast attack.

Also, it'd be cool if they could morph 2 storm shields, one in each hand. Rerollable 3++ save hooooo. You know, for like, crossing the battlefield trying to get into combat. or tarpitting.

For those CC obliterators, im guessing something like "warp jumpers", Regular obliterators are meant to "come from the warp" and make deals with warlords while big combats are ocurring. Maybe CC oblis will be like that, and will wear some "short teleport" thing.

The game alredy have 2 units who own something like that, booth sworn enemies to anything in the warp. It is not so ilogicall to think that the guys who actually stay in the warp, and learn great secrets from it, can do the same...

75hastings69 on Warseer wrote:
Daemons wave is indeed next, CSM is the next Codex (full release) maybe I should have made that clearer in my earlier post. CSM also get some kind of mechanical Centauroid weapon platform/unit, I'll try and recall all the CSM.
ive made a list of what models the CSM players can expext, note that i dont know if these will all come at once or in waves, some of these (or click fit varients of them) are in the starter box.

Note also that ill not be adding rules or updating this thread in anyway so that will be up to you guys.

I'm expecting the codex to hit late October or early November (depending on if the rumour that the wfb WoC army book isn't out till feb 2013 is true or not - I'm still expecting that book in October)

Upcoming models:-

Raptors (plastic 2 types)
Dread looks like an angry obliterater on roids!
Obliterators look good but not as good as the "mauler" CC version
Dragon flyer is ok
Two deamonic Centauroid cannon things a bit iffy
Warp smith
Apostles
Cultists
Some odd walker thing
New csm marines (could be recut with added bits? Either way I didn't recognise them as current ones - but then again my 40k fu is weak!)
Chosen very nice too


My understanding is the Obliterators are a new plastic kit that includes the CC mauler variant options. I would "imagine" that these maulers are designed to compete in just that kind of role.

AFAIK the current plastic termie lord kit remains.


I refuse to comment about finecrast - (there are obviously characters too, and they're I'm finecast! - iirc new Kharn the betrayer is one of them)

via Erazmus_M_Wattle wrote:
I can back Hastings up somewhat here. My moles in GW reported that there was a new close combat unit. Like cc obliterators. Both builds looked lovely. I've been informed that they are going to be two to a box. This reminds me if an older rumour that they'd go up to a squad size of six. It seems odd for two to a box with the current size of three.

The dark apostle is very nice.

As for the dread I've heard nothing.


Perhaps the roided up dread might be a model to represent a possessed dread. I can't imagine they'd invalidate regular dreads. Let's not forget Hastings stated he was only talking about models. No need to panic that our expensive forge-world dreads have been invalidated. I expect the more basic dreads with still be viable.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Logan on Faeit212 wrote:
The CSm codex is the first half of Sept. The starter set is late Sept. No DA this year.

But dont say the starter set is "locked" for september. They could move it to October easily.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

TastyTaste on Blood of Kittens wrote:
So does Soul Blaze replace the AP3 on 1k sons bolters, or is it in addition to it? And since rapid fire weapons can be fired on the move now, do they still have SnP?

[Are just like before, but with Soulfire]
They are just like
1) do Chaos bikes get a reasonable price reduction, similar to C:SM ones?
[No Idea]
2) do Havoc weapons options get cheaper?
[Yes almost as cheap as Long Fangs]
3) do Terminators come standard with Power Axes in their new cost?
[I think you still get to pick Sword or Axe your choice]
4) are there any FOC shenanigans like moving Terminators, Bikes or Raptors to troops?
[Nope just cult troops]
Do the Thousand Sons get any new options (say, like Heavy Bolters?)?
[None that I know of]
Even with all those upgrades and tables, the codex somehow sounds ”down to earth” like the current DA codex. Does it feel the same? Like a careful approach to a new edition of rules?
[Seems careful, I would say they are just copying there approach they used with Fantasy]
- How do Icons and Marks work? Are Icons still bound to one model and lost whet it dies?
[No idea]
- Can Vehicles and special units (Obliteratiors, Dragon, etc.) be marked?
[Some can some cannot]
- Which weapons of Plaguemarines are poisoned? CC weapons, Shooty weapons or both?
[No idea]
- Do marked Sorcerers or marked Daemonprinces also make cult units a troop choice?
[Princes no, Sorcerers Yes]

thank you mr pretre!! Looks like a iron warriors force in my near future.

Looks like no more running two Daemon Princes if I want to field cult as troops...

Doesn't really make sense fluff-wise, but it's a valid way of making Lords more viable (compared to Princes, not Sorcerers) game-wise. For some armies...

It looks like Thousand Sons are going to continue to be on the bottom of the pile as far as the cult troops go.

Nobody can stop the Soul Blaze.

really looking forward to the new Warsmith model. i am still using the old metal one, it's one of my fave models.

Praxiss wrote:really looking forward to the new Warsmith model. i am still using the old metal one, it's one of my fave models.

It will be FC though

Logan on Faeit212 wrote:

The CSm codex is the first half of Sept. The starter set is late Sept

Yeah right.

So, just catching up on rumours out of curiousity.

Raptors getting Daemon.

Wait.

They're gaining Fear and a 5+ invulnerable save? And not likely to go up in points too much? Suddenly, Raptors seem worthwhile!

DarkStarSabre wrote:So, just catching up on rumours out of curiousity.

Raptors getting Daemon.

Wait.

They're gaining Fear and a 5+ invulnerable save? And not likely to go up in points too much? Suddenly, Raptors seem worthwhile!

Can't believe I missed this. I wonder if this will apply to both Raptors or the one that's rumored to be equipped with lightning claws.

Enigwolf wrote:

DarkStarSabre wrote:So, just catching up on rumours out of curiousity.

Raptors getting Daemon.

Wait.

They're gaining Fear and a 5+ invulnerable save? And not likely to go up in points too much? Suddenly, Raptors seem worthwhile!

Can't believe I missed this. I wonder if this will apply to both Raptors or the one that's rumored to be equipped with lightning claws.

It seems unlikely that applies to both raptors. There is no reason to give that USR to normal CSM with jetpacks. I suppose it is just to possessed raptors (or wathever they are named).

Logan from Faeit212 wrote:Also Kharn is supposedly no longer "immune" to pyschic powers rather his deny the witch is a 2+


Ahriman I have heard Mastery Level 4. 3 wounds. Possible 3+ or 4+ DtW. Slightly Cheaper. But not sure. Could be more.
he might have an INV save vs shooting only


Expect a few months after release. Upgrade sprues will come. Shoulder pads and helmets. Maybe boltguns. POSSIBLY finecast though...


The original concept was to make very specific legion rules but the problem was


1. They wouldnt be able to fit it in one codex
2. Multiple codices is hard to sustain unless there is much effort.


So there was a compromise. One codex. No heavy legion rules or advantages. But if you waited to play a certain legion they'd give you the tools to make it. With marks or a few units. So cult terminators might have once been real.

Dez on Faeit 212 wrote:
Warlords Cometh


If you are currently complaining about Warlord traits being too random well play that violin some more. GW really wants you to use them! The CSM codex has it’s own Warlord chart, but the big announcement is some characters have specific Warlord Traits! These are built into the cost of the model, so no taking them out!

Meet the Geek at Faeit212 wrote:
One rumor I've heard is that Legions are in but not... basically it's just the "take X mark on your HQ" stuff expanded. So take a named Lord or X mark/upgrade and suddenly your force org chart swaps around, AKA kit your warlord with 'Night Lord' upgrades and undivided/no mark and suddenly Assault Marines/Bikers are troops. Alphas get Infiltrators, Irons that Dark Tech Marine thing, etc.

I think these newest rumours really make this release look good. We don't know how competitive the book is yet of course but it's clear the CSM will have a distinct look and feel to them when compared to let's say IG or any loyalist Marine army. It could for example be an army with some veteran Chaos Marines with their vehicles, a Daemon Prince, many big gribbly Obliterator types, a half-daemon half-flyer creature or three, some massive daemon engine artillery and some cultist rabble. All in all it sounds like the most accurate tabletop manifestation of the CSM from the Black Library novels ever. SW got their Fenrisian Wolves and Thunderwolf Lords and Cav, BA got their golden boys and other angels and vampires, and Chaos won't be 'Marines with spiky bitz' anymore but something unique.

Rivet wrote:Cheaper Noise Marines make me happy. Would hope they also drop the price of the Blast Master.
Regardless, I still want vehicle sonic weaponry. (I bet this is too far out of the realm of possibility though)
Looking forward to making some Slaanesh Cultists (yay conversion time!)

I'm also very happy with this. I have a lot of Noise Marines fully painted, just waiting to be fielded. Blastmaster has always been worthless. What other 40 point weapon does so little? I can't think of one.

Also, if Forgeworld rules are opened up, then there's the Emperor's Children Dreadnought with Sonic Blaster and Blastmaster arm that you can use

Sephyr wrote:I see no marks giving extra CC attacks, so it could be that the Rage USR will be replacing the extra +1A from the khorne mark. Still remains to be seen, though.

By now I'm mostly curious about the design 'theme' we are going to see. If CSM is to be a high-value, low-number army like GKs, we need to see quite a boost in rules, statlines and weaponry. If they are going to be skilled generalists like vanilla marines, prices need to drop and the line needs more variety in vehicles. So far, it seems that Kelly may have tried to onclude both options, which is a gamble. More power to him if it works!

I definitely agree. At the point costs that they're currently at, a lot of the options are simply prohibitive. From some of the rumors about Daemonically Possessed things eating models, I'm guessing that Cultists will see play as cheap meatshields to feed your own army and soak up assault Overwatch, and the rest of your army brings the hammer down. They really gotta give a boost to some of our basic troops though if we hope to compete with the ridiculousness that can be fielded by other armies.

I really hope they DON'T do any shenanigans like Necron MSS or GK grenades. I don't want that. Whenever I play as or against either of those armies with those options taken, I don't have fun. It's really lame to roll against yourself and kill your own models because of an opponent's stupid rule, and even more ridiculous that those things can force Force Weapon checks to insta-gib your characters. I don't want that in CSM. I don't want CSM to be an easy point-and-shoot army, which is why I'm glad Phil Kelly is writing it. He writes good, complex, multi-optioned Codices, so we should see lots of different army builds in this.

Rivet wrote:Looks like no more running two Daemon Princes if I want to field cult as troops...

I don't think it'd be worth it anyway. The rumors suggest that Daemon Princes are getting a huge jump in cost to bring them in line with Chaos Daemons Daemon Princes, which gets really expensive really fast, and for not much good.

drbored wrote:

Rivet wrote:

Rivet wrote:Looks like no more running two Daemon Princes if I want to field cult as troops...

I don't think it'd be worth it anyway. The rumors suggest that Daemon Princes are getting a huge jump in cost to bring them in line with Chaos Daemons Daemon Princes, which gets really expensive really fast, and for not much good.

hopefully they become flying monstrous creatures, and not bullgak jump monstrous creatures. I think that would be more than 'not much good'

Please be September, please be September, please be September.

All these new toys and rules making old toys better....

Ready your wallets men!

Phil Kelly is writing it. He writes good, complex, multi-optioned Codices

Like Eldar 4th edition Tri-falcon! No? Maybe space wolves with a ton of long fangs, psyker, and gray hunters than!

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Phil Kelly is writing it. He writes good, complex, multi-optioned Codices

Like Eldar 4th edition Tri-falcon! No? Maybe space wolves with a ton of long fangs, psyker, and gray hunters than!

Or the Ork Codex? Perhaps the longest lasting with a fine mix of different powerful builds. The Eldar codex lasted for a decent amount of time and is incredibly old now and the space wolves codex would have been fine other than long fangs points cost. (I took on space wolves with my orks in 5th perhaps 20 times and never lost once to them, despite a wide range of power builds from the wolves and a wide range of player skills).

Hmmm...i just bought 2 units of thousand sons because i love their models(and am terrified that GW will make the 1k sons models horrible because GW hates 1k sons) and am going to use them as allies. but if they look new and awesome i may have to buy some more...curse you GW!!!

hopefully their rules dont suck either, but i am using them anyway!

Neko wrote:As someone who's seen the dragon, I can definitely say that it has it in the looks department
(...)
Well, at first glance I thought it was based on a bird rather than a dragon. It's definitely not a snake style dragon as I know some people have been speculating.
(...)
I did see a couple of the other models, but they didn't stick in my mind as well as the dragon, sorry.
I do remember that there were the 2 types of Raptor, from which I got the impression that one is a standard Raptor, and the other is a Raptor that's spent way too much time in the warp (possessed Raptor maybe?). The second type of raptor was more close combat focused, with claws and the like.
As I say, out of the deamon engines I was too busy drooling over the dragon to remember much about the others. I seem to have it stuck in my head though that there were 2 different types based on the same core design though, and I think they were stocky quadrupeds in design. Basically, whilst the Defiler could be said to be based on an arachnid, I think these were based on a more mammalian body type.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Phil Kelly is writing it. He writes good, complex, multi-optioned Codices

Like Eldar 4th edition Tri-falcon! No? Maybe space wolves with a ton of long fangs, psyker, and gray hunters than!

Or the Ork Codex? Perhaps the longest lasting with a fine mix of different powerful builds. The Eldar codex lasted for a decent amount of time and is incredibly old now and the space wolves codex would have been fine other than long fangs points cost. (I took on space wolves with my orks in 5th perhaps 20 times and never lost once to them, despite a wide range of power builds from the wolves and a wide range of player skills).

Orks are good, but Eldar was nearly monobuild in 4th when it was released. Kelly is good but he's got some dry work, not to mention at times his books seems to have some major pricing issues (Warriors of Chaos, Eldar in 4th, Space Wolves)

Building up Night Lords. Raptors are sounding like they maybe a must have.

Mat

Man, it sounds like they are going to make demon princes suck in Fantasy and 40K now.

There was quite a lot of detail into the descriptions of the raptors in Void Stalker which did seem different from their traditional looks.

Maybe some tips?

Noisy_Marine wrote:Man, it sounds like they are going to make demon princes suck in Fantasy and 40K now.

I dont know if just raising the points cost so that they match what is in line with other dexes means that they are going to suck now. After all, Vector strike etc. makes them very utilitarian. Besides they are the whole package. Anti vehicle, anti troop all in one.

Do you guys reckon there will be a new chaos lord kit, I think its fine but with all the rumoured changes to how much lords can be customised, trying to decide wether or not to get one now, gives me an excuse to get new brushs I need anyway hehe.

They wouldnt be able to fit it in one codex

By this line, the CSM codex better be bigger than the SM codex or that makes no sense.
I mean you can't just say "for x points per model the 'cult' unit can have terminator armor" that takes up so much space?

unmercifulconker wrote:Do you guys reckon there will be a new chaos lord kit, I think its fine but with all the rumoured changes to how much lords can be customised, trying to decide wether or not to get one now, gives me an excuse to get new brushs I need anyway hehe.

There's no reason for a new Terminator Lord kit. It's a great kit and it's not very old at all. New PA ones would be nice though.

Yeah regular lord kit would be nice, although there's rumoured to be a finecast one atleast.

Gunna wait then, if the wargear expands a lot then I need to plan what extra bits to get him.

A plastic lord kit would be fantastic, especially if they're going to be that customizable.

Logan from Faeit212 wrote:The original concept was to make very specific legion rules but the problem was


1. They wouldnt be able to fit it in one codex
2. Multiple codices is hard to sustain unless there is much effort.


So there was a compromise. One codex. No heavy legion rules or advantages. But if you waited to play a certain legion they'd give you the tools to make it. With marks or a few units. So cult terminators might have once been real.

So CSM don't sell enough to get distinct legions? Why don't you just retcon the fluff, make everyone Black Legion and put everyone else out of their misery?

Well? What are you waiting for?


Do it.


DO IT!!!

*Sigh* I was really hoping for legion rules. At least we get cultists and the possibility of demons through allies. So we almost got everything.

And I'm thinking maybe they didn't want chaos to have terminator troops? Because you could put cult units in TDA and make them troops and that is somehow bad ... ?

No legion rules...wt*bleep*, not enough space they say? look ad C:SM that's a bigger book than alot of other codexes. Its sounds like our book is going to be left in the dust before it has even come out.

Guys, these are still just rumors. This guy doesn't have credibility yet. It's not a guarantee yet. Do you have the book yet? No? Then you don't know if it's real. A lot of people are starting to doubt these rumors based on the upcoming Tau rumors losing Kroot-give it time. We can all bitch our heads off if he's right and legion rules don't exist. Of course, the marks, icons, Apostles and Mechanics rumored lend to 6 of the legions already (Word bearers, Iron Warriors, 4 cult groups) and of course Black Legion, so 6 types already exist. Apostles plus cultists and daemon allies make for a nice WB army, and the Mechanics may move around the FOC to create an epic Iron Warriors army. Point is, nobody knows yet, but it feels like we're crying over milk that MIGHT spill-it hasn't yet.

The original plan was to do something that loads of Chaos fans want, but we decided to not do that because we don't like money???

And the Cult Terminator problem wouldn't be a problem if special rules were gained via Marks rather than being inherent to the unit. Remove 1KSons, Plague Marines, 'Zerkers and Noise Marines as distinct entries and instead change it to Marines + Mark = Cult Troop Type. That way the same rules can apply to Terminators (Terminator + Mark of Nurgle = Plague Terminators, Marines + Mark of Tzeentch = 1kSons marines, etc.).

H.B.M.C. wrote:The original plan was to do something that loads of Chaos fans want, but we decided to not do that because we don't like money???

And the Cult Terminator problem wouldn't be a problem if special rules were gained via Marks rather than being inherent to the unit. Remove 1KSons, Plague Marines, 'Zerkers and Noise Marines as distinct entries and instead change it to Marines + Mark = Cult Troop Type. That way the same rules can apply to Terminators (Terminator + Mark of Nurgle = Plague Terminators, Marines + Mark of Tzeentch = 1kSons marines, etc.).

More like sales split between multiple legions book dont justify the cost. At least the army composition isn't determined just by special characters... that was something you hated and see its less bad now.

I can't say I like that method. Even though they existed at one point I don't believe the elites of those 4 would all wear terminator armor given their distinct martial modus operandi.

aka_mythos wrote:More like sales split between multiple legions book dont justify the cost.

You don’t need multiple books. You didn’t in 3rd Ed and they all fit inside there, and that book will probably end up being half the size of the new one. Lack of space is a copout. Legions are a page or two of rules at best, and modifications to the FOC.

aka_mythos wrote:At least the army composition isn't determined just by special characters... that was something you hated and see its less bad now.

“Less bad”. Wow. Real silver lining there...

aka_mythos wrote:I can't say I like that method. Even though they existed at one point I don't believe the elites of those 4 would all wear terminator armor given their distinct martial modus operandi.

You’re being overly specific and missing my point. I’m not saying “this is the way to do Cult Termies!”, I’m saying this is the way to do Cult units. Period. Whether a specific Legion would or wouldn’t use Terminator armour is irrelevant. What matters is that a unified Mark system (like 3.5) would stop there being a difference between “Plague Marines” and “Terminators w/Icon of Nurgle”.

You could limit who could take the Marks (no Slaaneshi Terminators, for example, though I don’t understand why any one of the ‘Big 4’ wouldn’t use Terminators), but that would be a unit-by-unit thing. So the Bike entry might say

A unit of Chaos Space Marine Bikers can take one of the following:

Mark of Khorne – +5 points per model
Mark of Slaanesh – +5 points per model
Mark of Nurgle – +10 points per model

But no Tzeentch, and then the Raptor entry might not include Nurgle, or whatever. The specifics, as I said, don’t matter as much as the actual Mark system/mechanic itself, which does work and is 100000000 times better than the crap we have in the ‘Chaos’ Codex now (and what will likely carry through into the next book).

aka_mythos wrote:I can't say I like that method. Even though they existed at one point I don't believe the elites of those 4 would all wear terminator armor given their distinct martial modus operandi.

Nah, this one time Lucius invited all the Terminators from all the legions to his pad for this crazy orgy but then the Tyranids showed up and they all got ate - the end. But it's ok guys - we get raptors and raptors that fly even harder! It's everything we ever wanted!

I'm pretty sure this rumor is explaining why there was not a unique Chaos Legions codex in addition to the Chaos Space Marine codex. I don't think the rumor is indicating their won't be rules with the CSM codex that allow players to take legion units(plague marines, berserkers,etc.), or units that aren't everything but legion in name, i.e. Terminators with mark of khorne and USRs to fit what would otherwise be "World Eater" terminators.

You guys are flipping out over a "rumor" from the comment section of Faeit 212 for god sakes.

http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/07/ok-live-qna-chaos-marine-codex.html

Live Q&A going on soon of chaos space marine codex.

Starfarer wrote:You guys are flipping out over a "rumor" from the comment section of Faeit 212 for god sakes.

And if someone had said that Chaos would be losing Daemons, all Daemonic Gifts, Marks of Chaos for non-characters and going back to rando-Possessed back before the current book came out, we would have called them mad.

What I’m trying to say is that we’ve been burned before.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Starfarer wrote:You guys are flipping out over a "rumor" from the comment section of Faeit 212 for god sakes.

And if someone had said that Chaos would be losing Daemons, all Daemonic Gifts, Marks of Chaos for non-characters and going back to rando-Possessed back before the current book came out, we would have called them mad.

What I’m trying to say is that we’ve been burned before.

You're right, but we've also been burned by people like ghost21, and others completely making up things up to pull one over on us. No point lashing out in anger at GW over the claims of a totally unknown rumormonger at this point.

Crayola wrote:http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/07/ok-live-qna-chaos-marine-codex.html

Live Q&A going on soon of chaos space marine codex.

Cool, thanks for sharing, I'be asked some very specific questions that, assuming he answers, should let us know his credibility once the codex hits. Obviously general guesses can be made by clever "rumormongers" and end up getting it right, but I'm more interested in hearing from guys like Faeit 212"s Grant who was providing new USR names and rules weeks before 6th edition.

I can believe these rumors because GW can't seem to make a proper Chaos Codex. Should have let Ward write the damn thing, at least then it would have been tainted by chaos and utterly broken instead of bland.

Spartan089 wrote:I can believe these rumors because GW can't seem to make a proper Chaos Codex. Should have let Ward write the damn thing, at least then it would have been tainted by chaos and utterly broken instead of bland.

How about you read the codex first before your knee jerks clear off your leg?

How 'bout you let people react to the rumours lest we all just sit in silence talking about nothing.

H.B.M.C. wrote:How 'bout you let people react to the rumours lest we all just sit in silence talking about nothing.

I think most people are reacting just fine without resorting to kneejerk rants. There's a difference between sitting in silence and people already deciding the book is terrible before even knowing what is on the cover, let alone the contents. I mean, do we seriously have to repeat the same cycle with each new release?

Starfarer wrote:I think most people are reacting just fine without resorting to kneejerk rants. There's a difference between sitting in silence and people already deciding the book is terrible before even knowing what is on the cover, let alone the contents. I mean, do we seriously have to repeat the same cycle with each new release?

Fair enough.


But the cycle can be fun!

Starfarer wrote:
I think most people are reacting just fine without resorting to kneejerk rants. There's a difference between sitting in silence and people already deciding the book is terrible before even knowing what is on the cover, let alone the contents. I mean, do we seriously have to repeat the same cycle with each new release?

To quote Battle Star Galactica: "Messenger Six: "All of this has happened before..."

Starfarer wrote:I think most people are reacting just fine without resorting to kneejerk rants. There's a difference between sitting in silence and people already deciding the book is terrible before even knowing what is on the cover, let alone the contents. I mean, do we seriously have to repeat the same cycle with each new release?

Earlier in this thread someone was "internet" pissed about the codex and already talking about not buying it blah blah blah. I get what you're saying. I'm less irritated about what may or may not be in it than I am about the fact that we have to wait even longer for it's release.

Crayola wrote:http://natfka.blogspot.com/2012/07/ok-live-qna-chaos-marine-codex.html

Live Q&A going on soon of chaos space marine codex.

Lots of cool stuff being listed off on there.

Noise marines are overall a little bit cheaper. Sonic Blasters are 36" salvo now. Aspiring champions have access to a whip that prevents enemies from denying challenges. Other weapons are the same.

Most named characters are the same, but overall a point reduction. Abbadon is the same points and does not make terminators troops.

There are no new named characters.

Thousand Sons come with an Aspiring Sorcerer in their basic 5 before adding more Rubric marines.

There is a sound-based vehicle upgrade but it's more of a Word Bearers item than Slaanesh.

I haven't read any special character adjusting the allies chart.

The only impact on Marks is that HQ models make corresponding cult units Troops.

There are 2 debuff spells in Nurgle and Slaanesh, 2 buff spells in Slaanesh.

Abadon (His CC attacks) is AP2, Daemon Weapons are AP3

Question:
Will Terminators be able to be given both marks and icons to essentially be cult terminators?

Answser:
Yes, but it's expensive. Taking both increases the cost of the second and Terminators pay more in the first place.

Skull Champions can take collars that give the squad and any vehicle it's embarked in a 5+ DtW

You can mix/match Marks and Icons.

+1T/FnP isn't as good as a Plague Marine, they're worth their points.

HQ unlocks corresponding cult troop.

Kharne strikes at initiative 5, and he gained armour bane which I guess is new. He's AP3, but for every model he kills (not wound inflicted) he makes an additional attack at initiative 1.

Not quite the same as warrior born as it doesn't keep growing, but it's very devastating for someone with 8 attacks on the charge.

khorne berserkers [chain axes] are AP5

There are no new fortifications but there is a unique upgrade to fortifications.

Question:
How does demonic possession work now?

Answer:
They're the same except they have the Daemon special rule, 4 hull points and a 5+ invulnerable save.

There is a sonic upgrade for tanks, but it's not a noise-marine thing.

I don't know about upgrades being finecast. I know that there is intent to upgrade the basic CSM box to support all the cult troops to be able to achieve any of the weapon combinations from the entries (including everyone having soundblasters).

Raptors still have access to special weapons, only the aspiring champion can take special melee weapons. They are reduced in points.

The Night Lord's raptors are a lot like vanguard (they cannot charge on deep strike though), but they have 2 attacks base + dual power weapons (ap3) with the shred special rule and are 35 points each.

Edit:

The "eye of the Gods" table is actually several tables. First you roll to see what table you roll on, then you roll what you get after winning a challenge, killing a monstrous creature or walker, or annihilating a unit in close combat.

One of the tables is Daemonic Gifts.

Possessed get to buy (not roll) up to 3 boons from the table.

Cultists are 4 points each and come in squads of 10-30. They can have any combination of autoguns (str3 ap-) or auto pistol ccw (str 3 ap-)

They can take special weapons, but not heavy weapons.

they respond very well to dark apostles getting an extra benefit when one is in their unit.

Hopefully Abaddon get something else, his 275pt cost was never justified in the last codex and his daemon weapon was just as liable to kill him as an enemy unit. In recent Codexes HQ's have been given alot more utility. Look at space wolves or even all the new Necron HQs. 275 is just a bit too much for a simple beat stick that does not bring anything to help the army as a whole.

You can mix/match Marks and Icons.

Say what now? You don’t mean mixing the Marks and Icons of different Chaos Gods in the same unit, do you? Like Khorne-marked troops bearing an Icon of Slaanesh? Or Tzeentch-marked Troops sporting an Icon of Nurgle?

I really, really, really hope that isn’t the case.

I have a feeling the Marks will be proper marks and the icons will have some other kind of name to allow for mixing as much as you want. FNP marines that have +1 initiative can represent bondage marines of Slaanesh, FNP or +1 T marines can be combined with the rage bonus to be marines dedicated to Nurgle who are enraged by fever, etc etc. Options are there, it won't necessarily be Khorne and Slaanesh mixed, but rather a custom built unit dedicated to khorne. Hell, Rage for increased attacks mixed with FNP can also be Khorne troops who have been lobotomized to ignore pain. It's up to the player to fluff it up for themselves. Actually, this mixed mark/icon thing sounds truly awesome.

In my mind (which really means nothing lol) I believe that Abaddon should be at least on par with how awesome Draigo is if not more so... I really hope GW doesn't just make him some super overpriced fluff character

I'm wondering if Abaddon will have his chosen-terminator bodyguard as an option to purchase for him?

I really can't see him just walking out alone without his loyal cohort and then trying to join a squad on the battlefield....

Zachilles wrote:In my mind (which really means nothing lol) I believe that Abaddon should be at least on par with how awesome Draigo is if not more so... I really hope GW doesn't just make him some super overpriced fluff character

Pfft... Abaddon started his career out doing the bidding of primarchs and now just bargains with them to borrow forces for his Black Crusades. Draigo tags his initials into Primarchs on days he's bored! *runs for the 5+ Ward save hills*

Here is the last thing posted by the guy answering questions about the CSM codex on Faeit 212's blog.

"As of July 25th, CSM book is set to release in September along with the starter (though not the same week)."

I hope that is true!

H.B.M.C. wrote:

You can mix/match Marks and Icons.

Say what now? You don’t mean mixing the Marks and Icons of different Chaos Gods in the same unit, do you? Like Khorne-marked troops bearing an Icon of Slaanesh? Or Tzeentch-marked Troops sporting an Icon of Nurgle?

I really, really, really hope that isn’t the case.

The only way I can rationalize this in my mind is that only the Marks are god specific, well the different icons are Generic Undivided Chaos relic thingys now. Mutiple sources have said the basic CSM box is being recut/redone, so would let them redo the icons to look less god specific.

Yah. That was all just speculation, but it's enough to let me give the new system a chance anyway.

Here's a thought. If CSM can take Daemons as summoned allies, I'm wondering if we'd still be limited to the Allies FOC and requirements (i.e. 1 HQ 1 troops, before expanded FOC can be taken) or whether Chaos gets an exception to this rule. I don't want to have to take a Greater Daemon or a Codex: Daemons Daemon Prince just to take a squad of Plaguebearers or Bloodletters, for example...

Don`t worry, Enigwolf! Daemon princes in codex:Chaos Daemons are heavy support

Lockark wrote:The only way I can rationalize this in my mind is that only the Marks are god specific, well the different icons are Generic Undivided Chaos relic thingys now. Mutiple sources have said the basic CSM box is being recut/redone, so would let them redo the icons to look less god specific.

That would make sense (or, at least, make sense to us). If the Icons are "Icon of Special Rule X" and "Icon of Special Rule Y", then ok fine. They're not God-specific. I could easily live with that.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Lockark wrote:The only way I can rationalize this in my mind is that only the Marks are god specific, well the different icons are Generic Undivided Chaos relic thingys now. Mutiple sources have said the basic CSM box is being recut/redone, so would let them redo the icons to look less god specific.

That would make sense (or, at least, make sense to us). If the Icons are "Icon of Special Rule X" and "Icon of Special Rule Y", then ok fine. They're not God-specific. I could easily live with that.

Yeah, this is what I'm hoping for. For example, I'd give my Word Bearers FnP and Fearless, to represent their fanaticism being so strong they just ignore injury.

BDJV wrote:Here is the last thing posted by the guy answering questions about the CSM codex on Faeit 212's blog.

"As of July 25th, CSM book is set to release in September along with the starter (though not the same week)."

I hope that is true!

Highly unlikely.

TBD wrote:

BDJV wrote:Here is the last thing posted by the guy answering questions about the CSM codex on Faeit 212's blog.

"As of July 25th, CSM book is set to release in September along with the starter (though not the same week)."

I hope that is true!

Highly unlikely.

The rumor on this is that GW has a backlog and that it'll be difficult to get CSM released, because of the large volume of kits, if they don't.

H.B.M.C. wrote:And the Cult Terminator problem wouldn't be a problem if special rules were gained via Marks rather than being inherent to the unit. Remove 1KSons, Plague Marines, 'Zerkers and Noise Marines as distinct entries and instead change it to Marines + Mark = Cult Troop Type. That way the same rules can apply to Terminators (Terminator + Mark of Nurgle = Plague Terminators, Marines + Mark of Tzeentch = 1kSons marines, etc.).

I think you'd actually need two different Tzeentch upgrades: one for Thousand Sons Rubric marines, and one for non-Rubric marines.

AlexHolker wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:And the Cult Terminator problem wouldn't be a problem if special rules were gained via Marks rather than being inherent to the unit. Remove 1KSons, Plague Marines, 'Zerkers and Noise Marines as distinct entries and instead change it to Marines + Mark = Cult Troop Type. That way the same rules can apply to Terminators (Terminator + Mark of Nurgle = Plague Terminators, Marines + Mark of Tzeentch = 1kSons marines, etc.).

I think you'd actually need two different Tzeentch upgrades: one for Thousand Sons Rubric marines, and one for non-Rubric marines.

That's true. Not every tzeentchy marine has to be a rubric one neither every slaanesh follower is a noise marine. As it is now, maybe doesn't reflect exactly the personality of those great legions, but keeps doors open to other options. This is the lesser of two evils. Of course, separate Legions-Renegades Codexes would solve it.

Spartan089 wrote:Hopefully Abaddon get something else, his 275pt cost was never justified in the last codex and his daemon weapon was just as liable to kill him as an enemy unit. In recent Codexes HQ's have been given alot more utility. Look at space wolves or even all the new Necron HQs. 275 is just a bit too much for a simple beat stick that does not bring anything to help the army as a whole.

In 5th edition, Abaddon could pound any other IC into the ground. If his weapons are brought to AP2, you can expect to see the same in 6th. The only thing that could hope to beat him was a necron lord with mindshackle.

Abaddon did have his counters -- like a squad of TH/SS termies, but pound for pound he was the nastyiest IC in the game.

Until the new codex comes out, Abbadon is not as nasty. He's worth ~200 points currently IMHO as he barely edges out over Lysander in a duel. If they lower his weapons to AP2, then he will go back to 'beating face' status.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Enigwolf wrote:Here's a thought. If CSM can take Daemons as summoned allies, I'm wondering if we'd still be limited to the Allies FOC and requirements (i.e. 1 HQ 1 troops, before expanded FOC can be taken) or whether Chaos gets an exception to this rule. I don't want to have to take a Greater Daemon or a Codex: Daemons Daemon Prince just to take a squad of Plaguebearers or Bloodletters, for example...

You say that like its a bad thing. Fateweaver is a huge force multiplier for any army that can use his ability.

A bloodthirster is not just a counter-assault unit, its a counter-"clobber you into the ground" unit.

Starfarer wrote:
You guys are flipping out over a "rumor" from the comment section of Faeit 212 for god sakes.

I have been waiting for this Codex to drop so I can get back into the game. After a year and half of reading BL books, I am itching. But yes, they are all rumors. To me it only makes sense that the Codex would incorporate ever signle type of build that a player could ever dream of. A warband, a World Eaters legion company that didnt shatter after the HH, Alpha mofo's that have culty homeboys plus41st century gear and a tad of class (cause they planned it that way) or some Night Lords and Word Bearers that teamed up to go drop some hurt on everybody cause thats what the type of pasta gravy they really dig.

Its all rumors.

But lets all pray.

-Lando

labmouse42 wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

Enigwolf wrote:Here's a thought. If CSM can take Daemons as summoned allies, I'm wondering if we'd still be limited to the Allies FOC and requirements (i.e. 1 HQ 1 troops, before expanded FOC can be taken) or whether Chaos gets an exception to this rule. I don't want to have to take a Greater Daemon or a Codex: Daemons Daemon Prince just to take a squad of Plaguebearers or Bloodletters, for example...

You say that like its a bad thing. Fateweaver is a huge force multiplier for any army that can use his ability.

A bloodthirster is not just a counter-assault unit, its a counter-"clobber you into the ground" unit.

While true, Fateweaver is also a huge points sink, and a Bloodthirster may do that, in smaller games having to field a Chaos Daemons HQ may not always be the practical choice, especially in low-points games. I just want to be able to daemon-bomb Bloodletters with bikes/raptors again without having to do the full allies requirement. I mean, fluff-wise it doesn't make sense that I'd need to summon Fateweaver or a Bloodthirster just to summon some Bloodletters.

I wasn't planning on using any cultists... but if they are really 4 points a piece, then I might have to.

Enigwolf wrote:While true, Fateweaver is also a huge points sink, and a Bloodthirster may do that, in smaller games having to field a Chaos Daemons HQ may not always be the practical choice, especially in low-points games. I just want to be able to daemon-bomb Bloodletters with bikes/raptors again without having to do the full allies requirement. I mean, fluff-wise it doesn't make sense that I'd need to summon Fateweaver or a Bloodthirster just to summon some Bloodletters.

If your want some bloodletters and don't want the cost, why not just use a herald of khorne?

Honestly though, the troops are the worst thing out of the daemon codex. I would look at those screamers and flamers coming out in the Daemons rumor thread. Those would be useful for anyone.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Phragonist wrote:I wasn't planning on using any cultists... but if they are really 4 points a piece, then I might have to.

I have a 'traitor guard' army that I've been working on. These models can be used for either, which is a nice perk.

AlexHolker wrote:I think you'd actually need two different Tzeentch upgrades: one for Thousand Sons Rubric marines, and one for non-Rubric marines.

You're right. You'd have a Mark of Tzeentch for some, and a Rubric Sign (or whatever) for the other.

I just noticed this: "Daemon princes are jump if they have wings".

Aren't Codex: Chaos Daemons' Daemon Princes FAQ'd to be Flying Monstrous Creatures if winged?

Updated from the Q&A

Enigwolf wrote:I just noticed this: "Daemon princes are jump if they have wings".

Aren't Codex: Chaos Daemons' Daemon Princes FAQ'd to be Flying Monstrous Creatures if winged?

The FAQ for Codex: Daemon's make them Flying Monstrous Creatures.

The FAQ for Codex: Chaos Space Marines make them Jump infantry.

Where did you see Daemon Princes are jump if they have wings? Is it in one of these pictures? Which codex are you referring to?

Enigwolf wrote:I just noticed this: "Daemon princes are jump if they have wings".

Aren't Codex: Chaos Daemons' Daemon Princes FAQ'd to be Flying Monstrous Creatures if winged?

Yes -- Chaos Daemon DPs and CSM DPs are completely different beasts.

The CSM DP can be a psyker. The CSM DP can only move like jump infantry (maybe thier not as big of wings). The CSM DP has built in "Unholy Might" and "Iron Hide", perks that cost the Chaos Daemon DP 50 points.

Chaos Daemon DPs can be flyers, with all the associated perks thereof. Considering how awesome FMCs are right now, that's a strong perk.

labmouse42 wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:I just noticed this: "Daemon princes are jump if they have wings".

Aren't Codex: Chaos Daemons' Daemon Princes FAQ'd to be Flying Monstrous Creatures if winged?

Yes -- Chaos Daemon DPs and CSM DPs are completely different beasts.

The CSM DP can be a psyker. The CSM DP can only move like jump infantry (maybe thier not as big of wings). The CSM DP has built in "Unholy Might" and "Iron Hide", perks that cost the Chaos Daemon DP 50 points.

Chaos Daemon DPs can be flyers, with all the associated perks thereof. Considering how awesome FMCs are right now, that's a strong perk.

Odd. I thought there'd at least be some consistency in the wings.. lol. Maybe this will be updated in the new 'dex so the CSM DP is in-line with the Daemon DP...

I just have to say, reading the excerpts from that live chat makes me a little happier.
Yay:
Cheaper noise marines, marine box getting upgraded to include all weapon types including everyone having sonic blasters, might not have cult terminators but can "build them" (though I have NO terminators atm.. converted them all to obliterators >.<, cultists 4points per model?! Hells yeah!

???:
What do you mean there is going to be a sonic vehicle upgrade that is not Slaaneshi? Who cares about raptors, I mean really? Well ok, maybe they can be cool..., I am going to miss you Daemon Princes, sigh...


Not sure what else...

The mention in the Q&A of a Land Raider variant for Chaos that can hold 16 guys has me excited. I'm wondering what it could be armed with!

I was never really a fan of the land raider. In fact, I think I am less so even if it can carry 16 people (it is no longer an assault vehicle is it, are we still able to assault out of it? if not, then what is the point?!)

Given the number of new units we expect (we lose deamons but they are only a pair of pages), could be possible a codex more in line with C:SM in number of pages? That would be a good step towards Legions-Renegades split codexes. If they really plan to release all the models together (or in very close waves at least) they should picture more painted minis, so there are more pages filled.

96 pages codexes have always seemed small to me.

Hmm. Still waiting for more data, but from the latest rumor dump, I have to say it's a bit...underwhelming.

Everything that is CC-oriented feels too expensive and not quite good enough to make up for the nerfed CC rules of the new edition.

Kharn being AP 3 makes him rather redundant.

So far no new fun ranged weapons, just the old combis on everything.

Mauler Oblits better be really cheap, or they are simply not worth it. Why bother with a small unit that can only ride in Land Raiders, has crappy inv saves and dies easily to plasma and enemy MCs when you can have berserkers with -way- more S5 attacks or (apparently) get regular CSM with a mark/Icon combo that makes them I5 and Rage? Though I guess adding an IC can allow for some nasty wound allocation games...

Ahriman and Thousand Sons actually seem really decent, though lack of overwatch is a pain. Here's hoping the CSM psyker powers are fun.

Daemon Weapons at AP 3 and still whacking you in the face is a sad waste of a good idea.

Abaddon is still a bit question mark. Good that he is AP2, but does he affect the army in any way?

Good that the flyer is Fast assault. I was sort of crossing my figners for a second flyer (Hell Talon), though. Hopefully the Forge World integration thing will be true and add some variety.

Shame that they didn't give chaos bikes a bit of extra punch.

Terminators pay -more- for Marks? That's just weird. To prevent super-units with double-deities and the right IC, I figure.

As for the Eye of the gods Table....sweet holy tzeentch. You roll on a table to determine another table to roll? I think someone at GW has a serious gambling problem and playing the roulette, the horses and the lottery just isn't enough.

Good on the new Land Raider variant. Though I wonder if it can do its bunkerbuster assault thing after moving 12 inches; it's not going to last 6 inches away from the eney fortification within spitting distance of every melta in the world.

Overall? It really feels like they took the 5th edition Vanilla Codex and 'translated' it to Chaos Marines.

Rivet wrote:I was never really a fan of the land raider. In fact, I think I am less so even if it can carry 16 people (it is no longer an assault vehicle is it, are we still able to assault out of it? if not, then what is the point?!)

It is still an assault vehicle. The only thing is you can't disembark if you move more than 6"

Phragonist wrote:

Rivet wrote:I was never really a fan of the land raider. In fact, I think I am less so even if it can carry 16 people (it is no longer an assault vehicle is it, are we still able to assault out of it? if not, then what is the point?!)

...where are you getting your information from. AFAIK it IS indeed still an assault vehicle

I thought the Chaos FAQ removed the portion that called it an assault vehicle.

Sephyr wrote:
Overall? It really feels like they took the 5th edition Vanilla Codex and 'translated' it to Chaos Marines.

If you were right, it would be a good codex. Maybe not the best one, but who wants an overpowered codex flying over our heads? And I'm not saying this will be a bad codex, I like almost everything I'm reading.

Rivet wrote:
I thought the Chaos FAQ removed the portion that called it an assault vehicle.

It says no such thing. Back in 5th they removed the section on an assault ramp and just classified it as an assault vehicle. I'm looking forward to using one so my Berserkers can rush out of it.

From the FAQ:
Page 44 - Chaos Land Raider, Assault Vehicle.
Ignore this entry - refer to the Warhammer 40,00 rulebook.

Now does it still say you can assault out of a land raider in the BRB? If so I missed that and I apologize for the misunderstanding. However, I thought it says in the BRB that you cannot assault after disembarking and I saw no exception to this except for open topped vehicles.

I've been waiting a long time for this...

I think FAQ says we must ignore the explanation about what is an assault vehicle given in page 44 (passengers can assault in the same turn they disembark) and use the explanation of assault vehicle given in BRB: passengers that disembarked using access points (maybe to prevent emergency disembark) can assault in that turn even if the vehicle was destroyed. The new rule just clarifies the old rule but they still can assault.

Saying they can't fit all the necessary Legion rules into this Codex - that just doesn't ring true.

Especially since I thought they basically said that is what wold be happening with this book after the relative failure of the last CSM Codex in terms of representing the legions?

Check you mail people, maelstrom games got a GW voucher, just got skulltaker and term lord with some brushes I need to get the chaos ready

Shame it doesnt last till the new codex

Sephyr wrote:

Ahriman and Thousand Sons actually seem really decent, though lack of overwatch is a pain. Here's hoping the CSM psyker powers are fun.

Rumor said if sorceror is present, they are relentless. If not present, S&P. So, they should be able to overwatch with a sorceror, fwiw.

Green is Best! wrote:

Sephyr wrote:

Ahriman and Thousand Sons actually seem really decent, though lack of overwatch is a pain. Here's hoping the CSM psyker powers are fun.

Rumor said if sorceror is present, they are relentless. If not present, S&P. So, they should be able to overwatch with a sorceror, fwiw.

i am really hoping they will be able to overwatch, that would rock

Rivet wrote:From the FAQ:
Page 44 - Chaos Land Raider, Assault Vehicle.
Ignore this entry - refer to the Warhammer 40,00 rulebook.

Now does it still say you can assault out of a land raider in the BRB? If so I missed that and I apologize for the misunderstanding. However, I thought it says in the BRB that you cannot assault after disembarking and I saw no exception to this except for open topped vehicles.

Assault Vehicles are in the rulebook.

I saw that when taking Typhus you can upgrade cultist with FnP, Fear, and Fearless. Has anymore details been leaked for this? I've been waiting a long time to field some decent zombies in my Nurgle army and if they are really 4 points a piece I'm pretty sure I know what i'll be doing..

I like a lot of what Im seeing so far.

If the rumours are right it will mean a bog standard seven-man plague marine squad is slightly more expensive points wise.

MetalOxide wrote:If the rumours are right it will mean a bog standard seven-man plague marine squad is slightly more expensive points wise.

Given the fact that they now have poison attacks and can throw blight grenades, perhaps the cost bump is warranted.

We all know only one army gets to have amazing all-rounder troops for 20 points a piece.

*mumbles like the Joker*

I want it.. I wonna it now.. I want it... *drools*

Ahriman sounds mean (nice to know he's actually the number one psyker in the game now, a title that has been about a decade over due). I might have to re-start my thousand sons army, although Khorne doesn't sound like its been let down.

The Lords make cults troops has been in before, so nothing new there. Chaos vehicles now sound awfully mean, it's going to empty my wallet picking up one or two new ones, thankfully i've still got twin defilers and a land raider from the old days.

Love the idea of the dragon flyer, made to eat other flyers and the purely CC obliterators.

All in all the rumours are sounding like a far more viable codex so far that might actually have a few more competitive list's to it without a staple slannesh unit. 3.5 tamed and clarified, but we'll have to wait until September to find out!

*banks money and saves*

Semper wrote:
Ahriman sounds mean (nice to know he's actually the number one psyker in the game now, a title that has been about a decade over due)

Come now, I think we all know the next loyalist codex will have a guy 1-2 mastery levels higher

I'm still upset about no Cult Termies but I'm looking forward to Marked vehicles. Wonder if a Tzeentchy Dreadnought is a psyker?

The newest batch of rumors seems pretty solid, at least based on what we were given. Is it going to be the end all, be all of codices? No, but it sounds like it will definitely make Chaos a little more viable.

I think my honeymoon with the Blood Angels might just be over.

@ pretre ~ you are going to have your hands full when it comes to updating the rumor reliablility thread after this. So many people have said so many things.

Despite all the grumblings etc. i for one am not overly upset about the lack of cult termis. As long as i can give them the right mark to give them some of the same ability, i am happy.

Typhus and the zombie cultists sounds almost too good to be true If Ward was writting this codex they would no doubt all get the it will not die USR or something equally stupid. I am glad he's not writting this dex. Over the top cheese is so boring.

The chaos landraider variant sounds nice. Dont some of the loyalist raiders get a 16 man carrying capacity. Something of equal level would be nice. Not sure if bunkerbusting is really necessary in this edition, but i would love to see something like the flamestorm cannon.

sennacherib wrote:@ pretre ~ you are going to have your hands full when it comes to updating the rumor reliablility thread after this. So many people have said so many things.

It's already updated. I update it each morning when I get into work and am starting my day (plus throughout the day). The part that will suck is when the codex comes out and I have to T/F all of those.

Sephyr wrote:

MetalOxide wrote:If the rumours are right it will mean a bog standard seven-man plague marine squad is slightly more expensive points wise.

Given the fact that they now have poison attacks and can throw blight grenades, perhaps the cost bump is warranted.

We all know only one army gets to have amazing all-rounder troops for 20 points a piece.

Yeah, I suppose that's true, I really hope they get some new special weapons, like poison bile throwers (flamers) or something

So sad..... I was hoping for beefed up Spawns. I love those models... Maybe the new Possessed will be playable. and what about Daemons :(

Adrian Fue Fue wrote:So sad..... I was hoping for beefed up Spawns. I love those models... Maybe the new Possessed will be playable. and what about Daemons :(

Daemons are a non-issue; they're meant to be allied in, and I like that a lot. Nobody asked about Spawns because unfortunately not many people care about them. We'll have to wait and see on them!

Daemons are out, because you're supposed to use allies for them now, which is fair.

What would make spawn work. How about a 3++ and attacks count as power weapons. Yeah, then people would use them.

@ pretre ~ thanks for all your hard work. I know i am waiting eagerly to find out if any of what darkgeneral said was true (since i know him i hope he's got some reliability).

A chaos version of the land raider redeemer would be nice

MetalOxide wrote:A chaos version of the land raider redeemer would be nice

I'd just simply Nurglize it myself.

Much easier to do.

Cerebrium wrote:Daemons are out, because you're supposed to use allies for them now, which is fair.

What I'm still really curious is whether CSM can take Daemons without having to fulfill the Allies FOC requirements of 1 HQ and 1 Troops Choice, since it doesn't make sense to need to summon a HQ daemon if you want a smaller daemon.

Enigwolf wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:Daemons are out, because you're supposed to use allies for them now, which is fair.

What I'm still really curious is whether CSM can take Daemons without having to fulfill the Allies FOC requirements of 1 HQ and 1 Troops Choice, since it doesn't make sense to need to summon a HQ daemon if you want a smaller daemon.

Nah, I reckon it'll still apply as normal, it wouldn't be fair to other armies if it was the case.

At Gamesday Chicago some rumors may be confirmed. I will post many pictures in four days.

Sweet please do, always excited to see pics from gamesday, can't wait to see some awesome game boards.

TBH didnt know one was coming up hehe, do they sometimes show upcoming releases?

I have to agree that what we have so far is underwhelming.

Odd that they said they can't or won't put legion rules in the book, yet we are getting warsmiths, dark apostles, and night lord raptors as units ... It's like they will do everything but give us legion rules.

Demons weapons still sound stupid. Especially if Abbadon still doesn't have mastery over his demon weapon. And both demon weapons and Kharn are AP3? What's with all the terminator lovin?

Speaking of termies, they shouldn't have to pay more for marks considering you have to pay more for the terminator in the first place. This is like when WFB charged certain armies more points for magical weapons because the army had better fighty characters. If I pay the points for a Chaos Lord this is no reason the sword of strength should cost him more points. When is GW going to learn this?

Enigwolf wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:Daemons are out, because you're supposed to use allies for them now, which is fair.

What I'm still really curious is whether CSM can take Daemons without having to fulfill the Allies FOC requirements of 1 HQ and 1 Troops Choice, since it doesn't make sense to need to summon a HQ daemon if you want a smaller daemon.

Well Heralds are fairly cheap and satisfy the HQ requirement.

I think were going to see a lot of price increases on termies and all other 2+ armor units. For both gear and the unit itself just because they are so much better now.

baron deathnyx wrote:At Gamesday Chicago some rumors may be confirmed.

GW Gamesdays only grudgingly confirm the releases of the previous months.
Remember the GD in Germany, where the staff was forced to deny all rumours on Space Hulk, when preordering started the very next day (and ended 2 days later when sold out)?

lazarian wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:Daemons are out, because you're supposed to use allies for them now, which is fair.

What I'm still really curious is whether CSM can take Daemons without having to fulfill the Allies FOC requirements of 1 HQ and 1 Troops Choice, since it doesn't make sense to need to summon a HQ daemon if you want a smaller daemon.

Well Heralds are fairly cheap and satisfy the HQ requirement.

And you can throw it in the troop choice you took and forget that you even had it!

Noisy_Marine wrote:I have to agree that what we have so far is underwhelming.

Odd that they said they can't or won't put legion rules in the book, yet we are getting warsmiths, dark apostles, and night lord raptors as units ... It's like they will do everything but give us legion rules.

Demons weapons still sound stupid. Especially if Abbadon still doesn't have mastery over his demon weapon. And both demon weapons and Kharn are AP3? What's with all the terminator lovin?

Speaking of termies, they shouldn't have to pay more for marks considering you have to pay more for the terminator in the first place. This is like when WFB charged certain armies more points for magical weapons because the army had better fighty characters. If I pay the points for a Chaos Lord this is no reason the sword of strength should cost him more points. When is GW going to learn this?

True, I mean its not hard to give us legion specific rules...or new independent/special characters we have a grand total of six whereas C:SM has 11....

Really bummed about how poorly the thousand sons have turned out.

Still slow and purposeful apparently but no weapon options to make any use of it? All they gained was soulblaze? Still horrendously over costed? Still useless marks and icons? From what we've seen they have worse spell options?

I mean seriously... they've been complete garbage since third edition. Why is Tzeentch always the least appealing option with GW?

Nvs wrote:Really bummed about how poorly the thousand sons have turned out.

Still slow and purposeful apparently but no weapon options to make any use of it? All they gained was soulblaze? Still horrendously over costed? Still useless marks and icons? From what we've seen they have worse spell options?

I mean seriously... they've been complete garbage since third edition. Why is Tzeentch always the least appealing option with GW?

QFT. I was really hoping for all-plastic Thousand Sons at least. I would also trade a kidney for some Chosen-Sorcerers similar to Eldar Warlocks.

Nvs wrote:Really bummed about how poorly the thousand sons have turned out.

Still slow and purposeful apparently but no weapon options to make any use of it? All they gained was soulblaze? Still horrendously over costed? Still useless marks and icons? From what we've seen they have worse spell options?

I mean seriously... they've been complete garbage since third edition. Why is Tzeentch always the least appealing option with GW?

They are a bit cheaper (20 points cheaper due to the psyker, also getting a free roll on the Lores) , they are better in 6th overall (AP3 now matters, 5+ cover means 4++ is good, they don't have S&P unless the psyker is dead and have relentless while he's alive as well. soulfire means they'll hurt more things now overtime.

They aren't that bad now.

I have a question about cult termies: What do people want from them that a mark can't give?
Other than Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children, I can't see any need to, and to remedy what TS and EC get could be simple as "Mark of Tzeench X points, 1 terminator may be upgraded to Aspiring Sorcerer for X points and my buy 1 psycher power." and, "Mark of Slaneesh X points, + noise weapon upgrades"

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Nvs wrote:Really bummed about how poorly the thousand sons have turned out.

Still slow and purposeful apparently but no weapon options to make any use of it? All they gained was soulblaze? Still horrendously over costed? Still useless marks and icons? From what we've seen they have worse spell options?

I mean seriously... they've been complete garbage since third edition. Why is Tzeentch always the least appealing option with GW?

They are a bit cheaper (20 points cheaper due to the psyker, also getting a free roll on the Lores) , they are better in 6th overall (AP3 now matters, 5+ cover means 4++ is good, they don't have S&P unless the psyker is dead and have relentless while he's alive as well. soulfire means they'll hurt more things now overtime.

They aren't that bad now.

But relentless is the same exact thing except they can overwatch with relentless. Why bother with these rules when they can't use any of the weapons these rules are designed for?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

kenzosan wrote:I have a question about cult termies: What do people want from them that a mark can't give?
Other than Thousand Sons and Emperor's Children, I can't see any need to, and to remedy what TS and EC get could be simple as "Mark of Tzeench X points, 1 terminator may be upgraded to Aspiring Sorcerer for X points and my buy 1 psycher power." and, "Mark of Slaneesh X points, + noise weapon upgrades"

People want cult terminators because they want to play actual cult legion based armies and not renegade armies. Or at the very least having all cults offer something meaningful. But we're still seeing them all place a distant second, third, and fourth the nurgle. Only difference is now Thousand Sons are clearly last place as opposed to a bitter fight for last place with Slaanesh that we've seen the past 2 editions.

Terminators with a 2+/3++, ap3 combi bolter or a psyker squad ala grey knights could have been a lot of fun.

Noisy_Marine wrote:I have to agree that what we have so far is underwhelming.

Odd that they said they can't or won't put legion rules in the book, yet we are getting warsmiths, dark apostles, and night lord raptors as units ... It's like they will do everything but give us legion rules.

Sounds like you can make just about any legion you want with the small amount of info so far. Is it really any less of a World Eaters army if they have Berserkers, MoK, Rage and FC for terminators, but aren't explicitly called 'World Eaters Terminators.?" I don't need GW holding my hand telling me what units are legion units. If they give me the options to make them how I want, they can leave out the legion names.

Starfarer wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I have to agree that what we have so far is underwhelming.

Odd that they said they can't or won't put legion rules in the book, yet we are getting warsmiths, dark apostles, and night lord raptors as units ... It's like they will do everything but give us legion rules.

Sounds like you can make just about any legion you want with the small amount of info so far. Is it really any less of a World Eaters army if they have Berserkers, MoK, Rage and FC for terminators, but aren't explicitly called 'World Eaters Terminators.?" I don't need GW holding my hand telling me what units are legion units. If they give me the options to make them how I want, they can leave out the legion names.

But can you make a competetive World Eaters army? Probably with little effort.
How about a competetive Nurgle army? Without a doubt.
Other 2 aren't going to say the same.

Starfarer wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I have to agree that what we have so far is underwhelming.

Odd that they said they can't or won't put legion rules in the book, yet we are getting warsmiths, dark apostles, and night lord raptors as units ... It's like they will do everything but give us legion rules.

Sounds like you can make just about any legion you want with the small amount of info so far. Is it really any less of a World Eaters army if they have Berserkers, MoK, Rage and FC for terminators, but aren't explicitly called 'World Eaters Terminators.?" I don't need GW holding my hand telling me what units are legion units. If they give me the options to make them how I want, they can leave out the legion names.

Well GW said they wanted to do legion armies. They said they might do legion codices even. Then they decide not to because it's too hard or takes up too much space? All I'm looking for is 1-2 pages per legion detailing special rules, units, etc. They did the legions fairly well in the 3.5 book, it wouldn't be hard for them to repeat that effort. And yes, I am looking for explicit legion rules. It simply wouldn't take much effort for them to do it, but it sounds like we are going to get some half-assed effort yet again on GW's part.

But relentless is the same exact thing except they can overwatch with relentless. Why bother with these rules when they can't use any of the weapons these rules are designed for?

Because they can overwatch, and charge after firing, relentless works for Rapid Fire too.

To those who moan about Tzneech. 1000 sons kick serious butt against grey knights and since grey knights are kind of popular in this meta, it means that 1000 sons do fairly well.

Just saying.

Nvs wrote:

Starfarer wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:I have to agree that what we have so far is underwhelming.

Odd that they said they can't or won't put legion rules in the book, yet we are getting warsmiths, dark apostles, and night lord raptors as units ... It's like they will do everything but give us legion rules.

Sounds like you can make just about any legion you want with the small amount of info so far. Is it really any less of a World Eaters army if they have Berserkers, MoK, Rage and FC for terminators, but aren't explicitly called 'World Eaters Terminators.?" I don't need GW holding my hand telling me what units are legion units. If they give me the options to make them how I want, they can leave out the legion names.

But can you make a competetive World Eaters army? Probably with little effort.
How about a competetive Nurgle army? Without a doubt.
Other 2 aren't going to say the same.

First off, not every theme army out there is competitive. In fact this game is not designed to be competitive, but setting aside that argument, I think you can probably build competitive EC and TS armies. In my opinion, a big part of Legion armies for the Big 4 are about including daemons, and you can do so with the allies system. Tzeentch and Slaanesh probably have the best daemons available in the Daemon codex and including those units dramatically increases there effectiveness, and this is even before considering what any of the EC or TS units can do, other than knowing the general prices for them. TS may have insane psychic powers, and Mark of Slaanesh may be dirt cheap and might have amazing potential when combined with icons. We simply don't know what options will be available for competitive use.

All of that is irrelevant to the fact that you can create a themed army around a single Chaos god with much greater ease than the previous codex, if these rumors are to be believed. So while it appears a fluffy legion army is possible, fluffy and competitive remains to be seen.

Noisy_Marine wrote:
Well GW said they wanted to do legion armies. They said they might do legion codices even. Then they decide not to because it's too hard or takes up too much space? All I'm looking for is 1-2 pages per legion detailing special rules, units, etc. They did the legions fairly well in the 3.5 book, it wouldn't be hard for them to repeat that effort. And yes, I am looking for explicit legion rules. It simply wouldn't take much effort for them to do it, but it sounds like we are going to get some half-assed effort yet again on GW's part.

When was that exactly? When Jervis mentioned in 2009 they'd like to explore Legions, given the time?

Are we sure they decided not to because it couldn't fit in the book? Can we take a quote from a random person in Faeit 212's comment section as a direct quote from GW?

People hold GW to off hand remarks at Games Day as concrete commitment to a release and then wonder why they are so tight lipped with information. You can't hold out one hand and then hit them with the other and expect good results. I'm not happy with the secrecy by the way, but gak like this makes me understand it from a company perspective.

Cerebrium wrote:

Enigwolf wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:Daemons are out, because you're supposed to use allies for them now, which is fair.

What I'm still really curious is whether CSM can take Daemons without having to fulfill the Allies FOC requirements of 1 HQ and 1 Troops Choice, since it doesn't make sense to need to summon a HQ daemon if you want a smaller daemon.

Nah, I reckon it'll still apply as normal, it wouldn't be fair to other armies if it was the case.

I hope We can modify the Allied FOC for more troop slots instead of elites FA and HS slots.

It seems odd that so many of these rumours seem to change release months so rapidly.
The OP says that the 40K box is for September but it could change, as could the CSM codex.

But White Dwarf is finalised 3 months in advance of release, so September's and October's are already finished. There's no way a release month can change this close.

I'm not worried about the big four in the book as I am worried about the 5 unaligned legions. They should get as much love.

Spartan089 wrote:I'm not worried about the big four in the book as I am worried about the 5 unaligned legions. They should get as much love.

Iron Warriors got the biggest bonus here, Melee obliterates, standard obliterates, icons, new daemon machines, all new fancy gears, Warsmiths

Night lords got a new fancy raptor

Alpha Legion got ...Dunno yet

Word bearers can use icons for daemonsummoning, Dark Apostles, vast numbers of cultists.

Black legion..Is still the jack of everything.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Spartan089 wrote:I'm not worried about the big four in the book as I am worried about the 5 unaligned legions. They should get as much love.

Iron Warriors got the biggest bonus here, Melee obliterates, standard obliterates, icons, new daemon machines, all new fancy gears, Warsmiths

Night lords got a new fancy raptor

Alpha Legion got ...Dunno yet

Word bearers can use icons for daemonsummoning, Dark Apostles, vast numbers of cultists.

Black legion..Is still the jack of everything.

I agree with this. As A Word Bearer I'm fairly happy with the rumors, still iffy on a few things, but happy none the less.

Alpha Legion seem to be the Legion that is once again screwed over. Unfortunately they just aren't like the other chaos legions,they would need army wide rules to be truly unique.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Alpha Legion got ...Dunno yet

My guess is they'll have a decent set of rules for cultist... I'd guess some sort leadership bubble to marines.

Nah the Alpha Legion rules will turn them into moustache twirling villains with babies stapled to their foreheads (+1 Toughness).

Starfarer wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:
Well GW said they wanted to do legion armies. They said they might do legion codices even. Then they decide not to because it's too hard or takes up too much space? All I'm looking for is 1-2 pages per legion detailing special rules, units, etc. They did the legions fairly well in the 3.5 book, it wouldn't be hard for them to repeat that effort. And yes, I am looking for explicit legion rules. It simply wouldn't take much effort for them to do it, but it sounds like we are going to get some half-assed effort yet again on GW's part.

When was that exactly? When Jervis mentioned in 2009 they'd like to explore Legions, given the time?

Are we sure they decided not to because it couldn't fit in the book? Can we take a quote from a random person in Faeit 212's comment section as a direct quote from GW?

People hold GW to off hand remarks at Games Day as concrete commitment to a release and then wonder why they are so tight lipped with information. You can't hold out one hand and then hit them with the other and expect good results. I'm not happy with the secrecy by the way, but gak like this makes me understand it from a company perspective.

They wouldn't have to resort to secrecy if they wrote decent rules, released timely FAQ's and erratas with relevant answers, or *gasp* held public playtests before releasing their latest poorly written codex.

Thousand Sons don't look so bad to me. Soul Fire is ... meh. But being able to overwatch with the AS alive is nice. Cultist Spire Guard and Daemon Allies along with the Dragon and led by Ahriman looks pretty fluffy and fun!

Despite the lack of rules for Cult Terminators I hope Forgeworld still complete their range and make some Rubric Termies.

Noisy_Marine wrote:
They wouldn't have to resort to secrecy if they wrote decent rules, released timely FAQ's and erratas with relevant answers, or *gasp* held public playtests before releasing their latest poorly written codex.

I'm fairly certain none of those issues are why they are secretive about new releases. It is entirely about sales. No one buys units for an army right before they are about to be redone. This and the panic that ensues prior to a release that can further hurts sales is, in part, why they are so secretive.

Regardless, I won't bother debating this any further, as you insist on bringing up more and more irrelevant issues rather than addressing my response to your initial complaint that the new codex, which we haven't seen, doesn't allow for creating Legion armies.

Starfarer wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:
They wouldn't have to resort to secrecy if they wrote decent rules, released timely FAQ's and erratas with relevant answers, or *gasp* held public playtests before releasing their latest poorly written codex.

I'm fairly certain none of those issues are why they are secretive about new releases. It is entirely about sales. No one buys units for an army right before they are about to be redone. This and the panic that ensues prior to a release that can further hurts sales is, in part, why they are so secretive.

Whilst I agree that Noisy's reasoning is flawed, I doubt its because of your reasoning either. I don't think "Oh noes! Everyone will stop buying if we preview our new products!" is the reason they do it nor do I think it's a valid reason for anything. Companies do previews. They show off. They generate hype. They funnel visitors to their website, or to their magazine, and lots of other things. They don't outright deny the existance of new products right up intil the point where they go on pre-order.

For instance: There's a Games Day on this weekend in the US (not sure which one). 6th Ed is out, it's the "New Black", so this is the best time to show off the starter set. The old one doesn't even have the correct rulebook any more, so even if the "they'll stop buying" issue was real it wouldn't be that big a loss. You've got a bunch of people there excited about 6th Ed, so hit 'em with the starter set. Get people excited about that. Have a panel that talks about how they designed the new minis. Show off the new minis. Run demo games. Put up big "Coming in September" posters.

But they won't. They won't even show off the Daemons that will be out in a week or two's time. As Kroot said elsewhere, they will begrudgingly and reluctantly confirm prior releases. And, as if to highlight the point of GW's absurd secrecy, there will be two tables - one for Black Library and one for Forge World - showing off upcoming and unreleased products, even a few WIP's.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Starfarer wrote:

Noisy_Marine wrote:
They wouldn't have to resort to secrecy if they wrote decent rules, released timely FAQ's and erratas with relevant answers, or *gasp* held public playtests before releasing their latest poorly written codex.

I'm fairly certain none of those issues are why they are secretive about new releases. It is entirely about sales. No one buys units for an army right before they are about to be redone. This and the panic that ensues prior to a release that can further hurts sales is, in part, why they are so secretive.

Whilst I agree that Noisy's reasoning is flawed, I doubt its because of your reasoning either. I don't think "Oh noes! Everyone will stop buying if we preview our new products!" is the reason they do it nor do I think it's a valid reason for anything. Companies do previews. They show off. They generate hype. They funnel visitors to their website, or to their magazine, and lots of other things. They don't outright deny the existance of new products right up intil the point where they go on pre-order.

For instance: There's a Games Day on this weekend in the US (not sure which one). 6th Ed is out, it's the "New Black", so this is the best time to show off the starter set. The old one doesn't even have the correct rulebook any more, so even if the "they'll stop buying" issue was real it wouldn't be that big a loss. You've got a bunch of people there excited about 6th Ed, so hit 'em with the starter set. Get people excited about that. Have a panel that talks about how they designed the new minis. Show off the new minis. Run demo games. Put up big "Coming in September" posters.

But they won't. They won't even show off the Daemons that will be out in a week or two's time. As Kroot said elsewhere, they will begrudgingly and reluctantly confirm prior releases. And, as if to highlight the point of GW's absurd secrecy, there will be two tables - one for Black Library and one for Forge World - showing off upcoming and unreleased products, even a few WIP's.

Sorry, perhaps I should clarify. They are secretive because they believe it will hurt sales. Whether it is accurate or not this is what is driving their policies. I think they have come to this conclusion because of the amount of negativity they have received in the past, in large part directed from the online community, and in part because of codex leaks that ended up hurting overall sales, primarily the Tyranid codex.

That said, I think it is a bad policy. As I said earlier, I understand how they arrive at this conclusion from some of the comments that still perpetuate years old falsehoods. We could talk at great lengths about the failures of GW at reaching out to the community and marketing their products in a real and meaningful way, but like many global publicly traded companies they have shareholders to answer to. Good or bad, this is why they no longer operate like FW or BL. In other words, they don't have to be a good company, they just need to be a profitable one.

You know - I never quite understood the philosophy behind GW and the Chaos Legion armies...

They have consistently said that it is too difficult for them to create legion specific rules and fit them in a single book OR there wouldn't be enough there to create their own Codices.

Last I checked there were a half dozen or so different codices for Boyscout Marines - and each of them are only 1000 strong (give or take a few depending on how closely they are watched). That doesn't even include the various Forge World Chapters each of which have nearly a Codex worth of information on them in the Imperial Armour book that addresses them. However, they have a hard time making a good Codex for Chaos - or even better 5 good Codices for Chaos (4 mono gods and one Undivided)?

Anywho - I am sure the new Codex should be superlative...which will be a nice change from the previous one. Just something that always bothered me when my gaming was more restricted.

slightly off-topic, but Games Day used to have awesome previews of the studio projects...
the move away from that has really put a dent in the event's reputation, and hurt attendance...
the whole thing used to be a mad scrum...
now it's just a massive line at Forgeworld (who still do things the old-school way), loads of people checking out the Demon entries, and crickets...

if i wasn't chasing a Slayer Sword i would never bother with Games Day again...
Adepticon and Gen-Con still have companies doing previews, and it generates a ton of hype, as well as customer appreciation...

if the chaos minis were to be revealed in Chicago on Saturday, people would beat down the doors to get in...
ticket sales would jump, and people would be adding up how much they need to put aside for September...

i couldn't care less about the reasons for the secrecy...
i don't even care about the secrecy or release schedules, but we have watched GW shoot itself in the foot, repeatedly, for the last decade...
it's reached the point of farce...

that said, they are still producing amazing plastic kits, and i will still buy them...
i love my plastic Marine kits...
they get better, and come with more bits, with each generation...
the last version of the basic Chaos Marine box came with way more cool stuff than the previous one...
so, credit where credit is due...

now we just sit back and watch the Stupid Show continue at HQ...

cheers
jah

Starfarer wrote:Sorry, perhaps I should clarify...

My apologies. I mistook your hypothetical as an argument, and attempted to rebut. I guess I'm a little too quick to pick fights with people sometimes. @ me!

jah-joshua wrote:
[snip] and people would be adding up how much they need to put aside for September...

and that's the mentality. If GW previews/exhibits they fear withheld monies. They want you to impluse now AND in September.


I am excited to see what they do because I have some Knights of Blood on the back-burner and maybe I can get some bitz/boxes to bash a loyalist/traitor army...

jah-joshua wrote:slightly off-topic, but Games Day used to have awesome previews of the studio projects...
the move away from that has really put a dent in the event's reputation, and hurt attendance...
the whole thing used to be a mad scrum...
now it's just a massive line at Forgeworld (who still do things the old-school way), loads of people checking out the Demon entries, and crickets...

if i wasn't chasing a Slayer Sword i would never bother with Games Day again...
Adepticon and Gen-Con still have companies doing previews, and it generates a ton of hype, as well as customer appreciation...

if the chaos minis were to be revealed in Chicago on Saturday, people would beat down the doors to get in...
ticket sales would jump, and people would be adding up how much they need to put aside for September...

i couldn't care less about the reasons for the secrecy...
i don't even care about the secrecy or release schedules, but we have watched GW shoot itself in the foot, repeatedly, for the last decade...
it's reached the point of farce...

that said, they are still producing amazing plastic kits, and i will still buy them...
i love my plastic Marine kits...
they get better, and come with more bits, with each generation...
the last version of the basic Chaos Marine box came with way more cool stuff than the previous one...
so, credit where credit is due...

now we just sit back and watch the Stupid Show continue at HQ...

cheers
jah

I agree that they aren't making us hyped through for example Games Day or another happening but as you said, such previews would sell tickets, maybe they want the hype to sell models instead. If the preview comes a month in advance then the hype could have relaxed when the actual release have come and so would the sells figures. But I agree that they lose customer appreciation this way.
If codices and rules could be kept separate from models, then it could be interesting to observe if official previews of codices and rules could up the customer appreciation.
Lastly it could be interesting to see if this lower customer appreciation which we're talking about actually shows, I mean if people actually buy less.

I was excited for the Chaos release, but now it seems a bit 'meh' to me. I was really hoping for special characters for each of the original legions that gave a special ability to the whole army, for example Kharne could be rage, an alpha legion special character could be infiltrate.

I think my disappointment is due to wanting separate legion codexes.

well it looks like the mix of marks and icons will let you make decent appoximatiosn of fluffy armies.

Night Lords seems to be getting "uber" Raptors whcih makes NL Armies a viable option (i'm assumign one of the Lords mgiht make raptors scorign or something).

Word Bearers seem to eb gettign their Dark Apostles whcih will apparently buff up cultists - nice.




still not seen anything for us Iron Warriors players apart from a couple of mentions of a a possible Warsmith - any rumours on what they might be able to do?

Praxiss wrote:
still not seen anything for us Iron Warriors players apart from a couple of mentions of a a possible Warsmith - any rumours on what they might be able to do?

Close combat obliterators and a new daemon engine sound pretty good for our Iron Warriors.

Brother SRM wrote:

Praxiss wrote:
still not seen anything for us Iron Warriors players apart from a couple of mentions of a a possible Warsmith - any rumours on what they might be able to do?

Close combat obliterators and a new daemon engine sound pretty good for our Iron Warriors.

Also a good thing about Allies is that Iron warriors now have access to all the Imperial Guard tanks

H.B.M.C. wrote:Nah the Alpha Legion rules will turn them into moustache twirling villains with babies stapled to their foreheads (+1 Toughness).

That would probably be better than what we will end up with - access to a few more squads of tissue paper tough cultists and the ability to infiltrate a few more squads than any other CSM force.

...Then again what kind of rules do you want to represent the superiority of a force specializing winning by other means than a pitched battle **in a pitched battle**?

i suppose if Defiler get the Daemon special rule they will be more of a worth-whiel addition.

Plus with extra weapons being able to Snapfire they are also now worth taking with something other than Cannon + 2DCCW.

the quadraped artillary/daemon thing sounds quite funky. It would be a welcome addition to my walker-wall formation (Apoc Flank-march unit consisting of 2 Defiler, 2 Dreads and a Brass Scorpion)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
havign just read Deliverance Lost there is a rather funky rule you coudl add in for Alpha legion..

"I am Alpharius"

It could work in a similar vein to MSS. On a failed test of some kind, one model in a chosen enemy unit reveals themselves to be a Alpha legionare and attacks their own unit. That model is then removed as a casualty as the unit kill the traitor in their midst.

Maybe have soemthing at the start of the game to determine how many legionaires have managed to hide in the enemy army (D6 or something?) - so you coudl attempt this test only a certain number of times per game.


..Anyone got Phil Kellys email address?

Praxiss wrote:
havign just read Deliverance Lost there is a rather funky rule you coudl add in for Alpha legion..

"I am Alpharius"

It could work in a similar vein to MSS. On a failed test of some kind, one model in a chosen enemy unit reveals themselves to be a Alpha legionare and attacks their own unit. That model is then removed as a casualty as the unit kill the traitor in their midst.

Maybe have soemthing at the start of the game to determine how many legionaires have managed to hide in the enemy army (D6 or something?) - so you coudl attempt this test only a certain number of times per game.


..Anyone got Phil Kellys email address?

And Tyranids, Orks, Eldar, Tau, Daemons? How do Alpha Legionnaires masquerade as thems?

They wouldn't, and smart ass comments aside, the Legion has no problem applying direct force when necessary.

They might prefer not to, but they certainly can.

Maybe something like a 'force disruption' table, to go along with the cultists and infiltrating?

That isn't generally liked by many though.

I already know I'm going to probably have to go the SM/IG Allies or IG/SM Allies route, and that's OK!

Praxiss wrote:well it looks like the mix of marks and icons will let you make decent appoximatiosn of fluffy armies.

Night Lords seems to be getting "uber" Raptors whcih makes NL Armies a viable option (i'm assumign one of the Lords mgiht make raptors scorign or something).

Word Bearers seem to eb gettign their Dark Apostles whcih will apparently buff up cultists - nice.

If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

You know what Thousand Sons need? Ignores cover special rule. The AP3 is nice, but I always find that when I field them, the enemy usually gets cover somehow. If they had ignores cover, 1k sons would be BADD-ASS

Also, everyone seems cheesed off about not being able to make single cult armies... you can do that... what you're really mad about is that you dont get some extra rules or buff for doing it. You arent mad you cant make single cult armies, cause you can, you're mad that you dont get a bonus for doing so. say that.

It sounds like they are actualyl making it a neccessity to have a fluffy army.

"You want Plague Marines as troops? Well you best take a Nurgle alligned lord to lead them then."

No More Slaanesh Dp's leading squads of Plague Marines into battle.

Good.

Phragonist wrote:If they had ignores cover, 1k sons would be BADD-ASS

According to the gentleman in the "Q&A", Ahriman has access to "most lores".

Perhaps "Perfect Timing" is in the Thousand Sons' future after all.

Starfarer wrote:First off, not every theme army out there is competitive. In fact this game is not designed to be competitive...

Warhammer 40,000 may not be very good as a competitive game (well, there's little 'might' about it, it's a horrible, ill-balanced game), but it's still ultimately a game of two players, uh, competing to win a battle. That might not be all that the game is about, but it's still an aspect, and one which is the primary appeal to a good number of its players.

That aside, and being generous enough to consider GW's recent remarks about fluffy 'cinematic' and 'narrative' gameplay more than just excuses for being incapable of (or unwilling to) writing balanced codices, it would be a particular disappointment were players unable to make properly fluffy traitor legion lists with Rubric terminators et al from the new codex.

Phragonist wrote:
If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

Mr. Duggan, while I appreciate and understand the enthusiasm, chaplains only allow you to re-roll attacks on the charge, not wounds, excepting Death Company.

Neconilis wrote:

Phragonist wrote:
If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

Mr. Duggan, while I appreciate and understand the enthusiasm, chaplains only allow you to re-roll attacks on the charge, not wounds, excepting Death Company.

yes, well, the blood angels chaplain entry concerning death company states that "their RAGE makes them particularly susceptable to the Chaplain's fiery oratory". Considering that berzerkers may get the rage usr, it makes sense that they may also be equaly susceptable to fiery oratory, and hence be able to reroll wounds. Berzerkers are roughly the CSM equivalent to death company

English Assassin wrote:

Starfarer wrote:First off, not every theme army out there is competitive. In fact this game is not designed to be competitive...

Warhammer 40,000 may not be very good as a competitive game (well, there's little 'might' about it, it's a horrible, ill-balanced game), but it's still ultimately a game of two players, uh, competing to win a battle. That might not be all that the game is about, but it's still an aspect, and one which is the primary appeal to a good number of its players.

That aside, and being generous enough to consider GW's recent remarks about fluffy 'cinematic' and 'narrative' gameplay more than just excuses for being incapable of (or unwilling to) writing balanced codices, it would be a particular disappointment were players unable to make properly fluffy traitor legion lists with Rubric terminators et al from the new codex.

My larger point in that quote was fluffy armies are not always competitive, which is how the got the term "fluff" to begin with. My response was to someone saying, we want fluffy armies, and it looks like you can have that. To which the response was, we want them to be fluffy AND competitive, and we simply don't know if they will be or not since we know nearly nothing about the options and cost of anything in the codex.

It would be a shame to not be able build a legion as you want it, for any legion of your choosing. I'm just not that worried as Phil Kelly has shown over a number of codexes he's written that there are always lots of options for building themed armies. Whether that theme will also win tournaments is another matter entirely.

Phragonist wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Phragonist wrote:
If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

Mr. Duggan, while I appreciate and understand the enthusiasm, chaplains only allow you to re-roll attacks on the charge, not wounds, excepting Death Company.

yes, well, the blood angels chaplain entry concerning death company states that "their RAGE makes them particularly susceptable to the Chaplain's fiery oratory". Considering that berzerkers may get the rage usr, it makes sense that they may also be equaly susceptable to fiery oratory, and hence be able to reroll wounds. Berzerkers are roughly the CSM equivalent to death company

That's still a hell of a stretch of logic. Hell, we don't even know if they allow rerolls to HIT, let alone hits AND wounds.

Praxiss wrote:



still not seen anything for us Iron Warriors players apart from a couple of mentions of a a possible Warsmith - any rumours on what they might be able to do?

The LR that lets you attack through fortifications seems pretty Iron Warrior-ish to me.

Cerebrium wrote:

Phragonist wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Phragonist wrote:
If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

Mr. Duggan, while I appreciate and understand the enthusiasm, chaplains only allow you to re-roll attacks on the charge, not wounds, excepting Death Company.

yes, well, the blood angels chaplain entry concerning death company states that "their RAGE makes them particularly susceptable to the Chaplain's fiery oratory". Considering that berzerkers may get the rage usr, it makes sense that they may also be equaly susceptable to fiery oratory, and hence be able to reroll wounds. Berzerkers are roughly the CSM equivalent to death company

That's still a hell of a stretch of logic. Hell, we don't even know if they allow rerolls to HIT, let alone hits AND wounds.

Especially considering Black Templars with Rage don't get rerolls to wound from Chaplains.

After reading through all the rumours on page 1., there is one thing that still sticks in my mind. This is just an update to Gav's previous codex........

So, with that said, I expect great disappointment on my side and much anger on these forums once the copies go out.

Just saying.

Starfarer wrote:

English Assassin wrote:

Starfarer wrote:First off, not every theme army out there is competitive. In fact this game is not designed to be competitive...

Warhammer 40,000 may not be very good as a competitive game (well, there's little 'might' about it, it's a horrible, ill-balanced game), but it's still ultimately a game of two players, uh, competing to win a battle. That might not be all that the game is about, but it's still an aspect, and one which is the primary appeal to a good number of its players.

That aside, and being generous enough to consider GW's recent remarks about fluffy 'cinematic' and 'narrative' gameplay more than just excuses for being incapable of (or unwilling to) writing balanced codices, it would be a particular disappointment were players unable to make properly fluffy traitor legion lists with Rubric terminators et al from the new codex.

My larger point in that quote was fluffy armies are not always competitive, which is how the got the term "fluff" to begin with. My response was to someone saying, we want fluffy armies, and it looks like you can have that. To which the response was, we want them to be fluffy AND competitive, and we simply don't know if they will be or not since we know nearly nothing about the options and cost of anything in the codex.

In which case, we are indeed in agreement.

Starfarer wrote:It would be a shame to not be able build a legion as you want it, for any legion of your choosing. I'm just not that worried as Phil Kelly has shown over a number of codexes he's written that there are always lots of options for building themed armies. Whether that theme will also win tournaments is another matter entirely.

Well, it could be worse - it could be Gav or Jervis writing the book - but then since this is Phil "I made the feral and savage Space Wolves the game's superlative gunline, also Wolfy MacLupine wolf etc." Kelly, I don't think we're entirely safe from fluff or crunch-based disappointment.

No 1k Sons Terminators and I didn't see anything about sonic weapons for Terminators for Emperor's Children either.

You can make a theme army I guess, but here's more to a Thousand Sons army than getting +1 to your invuln save.

combat engineer wrote:After reading through all the rumours on page 1., there is one thing that still sticks in my mind. This is just an update to Gav's previous codex........

So, with that said, I expect great disappointment on my side and much anger on these forums once the copies go out.

Just saying.

That is a VERY good point - and it certainly seems to be the case.

I was pretty sure that GW would be distancing themselves from the last CSM Codex.

Maybe not?

aka_mythos wrote:

ZebioLizard2 wrote:

Alpha Legion got ...Dunno yet

My guess is they'll have a decent set of rules for cultist... I'd guess some sort leadership bubble to marines.

Wasn't the rumor on Faeit that undivided Lords will get Ld abilities and ways to manipulate reserves? If true, the end result when combined with Cultists (counting as AL operatives) is Alpha Legion...ish.

That is a VERY good point - and it certainly seems to be the case.

I disagree. To me it sounds like it'll be the most interesting Chaos codex yet. It doesn't sound anything like the last book either. Legion specific books were always a pipe dream and I'm glad if they don't bring back the idiotic 'Legion rules' from the 3.5 edition (Paint your guys boltgun metal and you have an extra HS slot, paint your guys blue and you get infitlrators for +1p per model, etc).

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Starfarer wrote:Sorry, perhaps I should clarify...

My apologies. I mistook your hypothetical as an argument, and attempted to rebut. I guess I'm a little too quick to pick fights with people sometimes. @ me!

But you wouldn't be the H.B.M.C. we all know and love without that wonderful in-your-face attitude


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:

That is a VERY good point - and it certainly seems to be the case.

I disagree. To me it sounds like it'll be the most interesting Chaos codex yet. It doesn't sound anything like the last book either. Legion specific books were always a pipe dream and I'm glad if they don't bring back the idiotic 'Legion rules' from the 3.5 edition (Paint your guys boltgun metal and you have an extra HS slot, paint your guys blue and you get infitlrators for +1p per model, etc).

How is that different from "paint your guys red and you can have Fast Predators," "paint your guys gray, and have four HQ choices," or "paint your guys black, and run at your opponents when they shoot at you."

Therion wrote:
I disagree. To me it sounds like it'll be the most interesting Chaos codex yet. It doesn't sound anything like the last book either. Legion specific books were always a pipe dream and I'm glad if they don't bring back the idiotic 'Legion rules' from the 3.5 edition (Paint your guys boltgun metal and you have an extra HS slot, paint your guys blue and you get infitlrators for +1p per model, etc).

*Snorts* Hell yeah! It's not like there's a marine you can paint red and have cool assault bonuses and access to flyers, a green marine that makes your meltas and hammers way better, and a grey marine that wins at everything forever and another grey marine with amazing cheap missiles who hates psykers but has some amazingly sweet psykers!

Saldiven wrote:How is that different from "paint your guys red and you can have Fast Predators," "paint your guys gray, and have four HQ choices," or "paint your guys black, and run at your opponents when they shoot at you."

Nonsense. Red Predators are fast vehicles because the Orks say they are, everyone knows that.

But you've got a point on the rest of them.

Short version, I agree with what you are saying provided you are saying what I think you are saying and nothing I don't want you to say.

xole wrote:

Saldiven wrote:How is that different from "paint your guys red and you can have Fast Predators," "paint your guys gray, and have four HQ choices," or "paint your guys black, and run at your opponents when they shoot at you."

Nonsense. Red Predators are fast vehicles because the Orks say they are, everyone knows that.

But you've got a point on the rest of them.

Short version, I agree with what you are saying provided you are saying what I think you are saying and nothing I don't want you to say.

I think I just had an aneurysm

Sephyr wrote:*Snorts* Hell yeah! It's not like there's a marine you can paint red and have cool assault bonuses and access to flyers, a green marine that makes your meltas and hammers way better, and a grey marine that wins at everything forever and another grey marine with amazing cheap missiles who hates psykers but has some amazingly sweet psykers!

Oh yeah, I remember: Because GW has an obsession with loyalist Space Marine armies, we should expand the obsession and make five or six Chaos codices as well. Half the armies in the 40K game are already Space Marine variants but hey why stop there why not make it 90%, right?

You want Thousand Sons that aren't just a couple warband units then do them as counts as Grey Knights. Many people have done this and it's great. You want Alpha Legion that isn't just stock CSM plus cultists running alongside (which is the exact same as what IW and WB would use) then use any loyalist rules or even IG rules and model some of your heavy weapon guys or heroes as Marines. You want World Eaters that aren't just couple warband units in an undivided Chaos army use SW or BA rules. TWC lords and Mephiston are already better than Daemon Princes pretty much and make perfect counts as units.

...or just use the brand new CSM book which looks to be filled with new daemon engines and chaotic creatures and other warp spawn. It seems to be the perfect book for atleast Word Bearers, Black Legion, Iron Warriors and Night Lords armies, and I'm pretty sure everything else except mono-Tzeentch will be viable too. But I'm sure this won't be enough, because even among the massive collective of Space Marine fanboys there is jealousy. Why did the Dark Green guys get a codex while the Light Green guys didn't? Unfair! We demand more Space Marines!

Sephyr wrote:*Snorts* Hell yeah! It's not like there's a marine you can paint red and have cool assault bonuses and access to flyers, a green marine that makes your meltas and hammers way better, and a grey marine that wins at everything forever and another grey marine with amazing cheap missiles who hates psykers but has some amazingly sweet psykers!

My Grey Marines with amazing cheap missiles who hates psykers but has some amazingly sweet psykers are Periwinkle!

Therion wrote:[...and I'm glad if they don't bring back the idiotic 'Legion rules' from the 3.5 edition (Paint your guys boltgun metal and you have an extra HS slot, paint your guys blue and you get infitlrators for +1p per model, etc).

That the integration of rules and fluff has been horrible abashed before doesn't necessarily mean it necessarily has to be that way. I'm sure it would be possible to write balanced and fluffy rules to distinguish the traitor legions.

Of course, this is GW, so your pessimism is far from unjustified.

Sephyr wrote:*Snorts* Hell yeah! It's not like there's a marine you can paint red and have cool assault bonuses and access to flyers, a green marine that makes your meltas and hammers way better, and a grey marine that wins at everything forever and another grey marine with amazing cheap missiles who hates psykers but has some amazingly sweet psykers!

Have you been reading Mat Ward's notebooks?

Therion wrote:

That is a VERY good point - and it certainly seems to be the case.

I disagree. To me it sounds like it'll be the most interesting Chaos codex yet. It doesn't sound anything like the last book either. Legion specific books were always a pipe dream and I'm glad if they don't bring back the idiotic 'Legion rules' from the 3.5 edition (Paint your guys boltgun metal and you have an extra HS slot, paint your guys blue and you get infitlrators for +1p per model, etc).

I'm certainly glad you're happy!

I just hope that there's a decent way to represent a proper Alpha Legion supported cell without having to resort to "Allies".

Therion wrote:

...or just use the brand new CSM book which looks to be filled with new daemon engines and chaotic creatures and other warp spawn. It seems to be the perfect book for atleast Word Bearers, Black Legion, Iron Warriors and Night Lords armies, and I'm pretty sure everything else except mono-Tzeentch will be viable too. But I'm sure this won't be enough, because even among the massive collective of Space Marine fanboys there is jealousy. Why did the Dark Green guys get a codex while the Light Green guys didn't? Unfair! We demand more Space Marines!

Actually, one new daemon engine, one obliterator derivative, and a dragon. No new named characters. Wow, that is such bold innovation and makes things so absurdly different!

Like it or not, the fluff already has tons of different Legions that have wildly different themes, tactics and natures. I don't fault you for worrying about MeQ-proliferation, but CSM players should not be faulted for actually wanting to be able to field an Iron Warriors force close to what they read about in Storm of Iron or a terrorizing Night lord force modeled like the one they loved in Soul Hunter, and wanting it to be viable.

As for using other codices for your chaos troops, that is severely frowned upon in my group and immensely lazy design. If it catches, eventually the game will be all proxies-as-Space Wolves fighting the odd fully Ork or Necron player.

dont forget the possible raptor derivative, cultists, spikey chaplain and spiky tech marine.
I personally dont like when people use one clearly "chaos" army and then use the space wolves rules. This rankles me the same way that the use of blood angels rules alternating with C:SM rules for the same Ravengaurd force does. I am fine with converted counts as armies but people who jump around using whatever dex best suites their needs for their MEQ annoy me.
That is all.

Praxiss wrote:i suppose if Defiler get the Daemon special rule they will be more of a worth-whiel addition.

Plus with extra weapons being able to Snapfire they are also now worth taking with something other than Cannon + 2DCCW.

the quadraped artillary/daemon thing sounds quite funky. It would be a welcome addition to my walker-wall formation (Apoc Flank-march unit consisting of 2 Defiler, 2 Dreads and a Brass Scorpion)

At first glance I read this as quad-raped and couldn't stop laughing I guess you all know I am a true follower of darkness.

Red Corsair wrote:

Praxiss wrote:i suppose if Defiler get the Daemon special rule they will be more of a worth-whiel addition.

Plus with extra weapons being able to Snapfire they are also now worth taking with something other than Cannon + 2DCCW.

the quadraped artillary/daemon thing sounds quite funky. It would be a welcome addition to my walker-wall formation (Apoc Flank-march unit consisting of 2 Defiler, 2 Dreads and a Brass Scorpion)

At first glance I read this as quad-raped and couldn't stop laughing I guess you all know I am a true follower of darkness.

Snicker ,

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:

Phragonist wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Phragonist wrote:
If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

Mr. Duggan, while I appreciate and understand the enthusiasm, chaplains only allow you to re-roll attacks on the charge, not wounds, excepting Death Company.

yes, well, the blood angels chaplain entry concerning death company states that "their RAGE makes them particularly susceptable to the Chaplain's fiery oratory". Considering that berzerkers may get the rage usr, it makes sense that they may also be equaly susceptable to fiery oratory, and hence be able to reroll wounds. Berzerkers are roughly the CSM equivalent to death company

That's still a hell of a stretch of logic. Hell, we don't even know if they allow rerolls to HIT, let alone hits AND wounds.

Especially considering Black Templars with Rage don't get rerolls to wound from Chaplains.

Their rules were written before the new blood angels codex. These new CSM codex is coming out after the blood angels codex

Sephyr wrote:Actually, one new daemon engine, one obliterator derivative, and a dragon. No new named characters. Wow, that is such bold innovation and makes things so absurdly different!

I thought the Daemon engine box was a dual kit. I'm also assuming the shooty Obliterators get new models to go with new rules too, so together with the Dragon and Cultists that's six very Chaos specific new units. That combined with hopefully competitive daemonic Raptors (iirc not the same as ordinary Chaos Assault Marines / Raptors) and Possessed already makes a lot of flashy new stuff. Chaos already had quite a few units so I don't think the codex will be lacking in flexibility as long as everything is pointed competitively.

As far as Alpha Legion is concerned, it's really hard to accurately represent terrorist cells on a miniature tabletop. Afterall their subterfuge and plotting has already gone out of the window since they've been dragged to a battlefield against an army of equal size. The way these types of spec ops armies have been represented hasn't been very well liked. Some of us might still remember the Alaitoc Disruption Table, for example. I think being Alpha Legion is more of a backstory for your army than an actual tabletop ability or quality.

Phragonist wrote:

AlmightyWalrus wrote:

Cerebrium wrote:

Phragonist wrote:

Neconilis wrote:

Phragonist wrote:
If the dark apostle is like a chaplain, I'll be putting one with 15 berzerkers in the new, higher capacity, land raider. Rerolling hits and wounds, hooooo.

Mr. Duggan, while I appreciate and understand the enthusiasm, chaplains only allow you to re-roll attacks on the charge, not wounds, excepting Death Company.

yes, well, the blood angels chaplain entry concerning death company states that "their RAGE makes them particularly susceptable to the Chaplain's fiery oratory". Considering that berzerkers may get the rage usr, it makes sense that they may also be equaly susceptable to fiery oratory, and hence be able to reroll wounds. Berzerkers are roughly the CSM equivalent to death company

That's still a hell of a stretch of logic. Hell, we don't even know if they allow rerolls to HIT, let alone hits AND wounds.

Especially considering Black Templars with Rage don't get rerolls to wound from Chaplains.

Their rules were written before the new blood angels codex. These new CSM codex is coming out after the blood angels codex

And we didn't have Rage until 6th edition. If that's what they intended they would've added the rule to Black Templars too, no?

Alpharius wrote:Maybe something like a 'force disruption' table, to go along with the cultists and infiltrating?

You know what would be cool, a rule like:

"I'm Alpharius!" - Alpha Legion characters never have to accept challenges unless forced to do so as they intentionally blend in with the rest of their squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:Oh yeah, I remember: Because GW has an obsession with loyalist Space Marine armies, we should expand the obsession and make five or six Chaos codices as well. Half the armies in the 40K game are already Space Marine variants but hey why stop there why not make it 90%, right?

Except very few people here are saying that. People just want Legion rules, something that does necessarily require Legion books.

But punch that strawman a little harder. Truth is your own argument got turned on its head, so you started talking about more Codices, which the rest of us really aren't.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

Alpharius wrote:Maybe something like a 'force disruption' table, to go along with the cultists and infiltrating?

You know what would be cool, a rule like:

"I'm Alpharius!" - Alpha Legion characters never have to accept challenges unless forced to do so as they intentionally blend in with the rest of their squad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Therion wrote:Oh yeah, I remember: Because GW has an obsession with loyalist Space Marine armies, we should expand the obsession and make five or six Chaos codices as well. Half the armies in the 40K game are already Space Marine variants but hey why stop there why not make it 90%, right?

Except very few people here are saying that. People just want Legion rules, something that does necessarily require Legion books.

But punch that strawman a little harder. Truth is your own argument got turned on its head, so you started talking about more Codices, which the rest of us really aren't.

True enough, we just some minor changes, we'd even accept Special Characters that grant special armywide rules like C:SM, we'd prefer lords with marks/X Legion, but still we just want actual legion rules to go with our chaos.

H.B.M.C. wrote:Except very few people here are saying that. People just want Legion rules, something that does necessarily require Legion books.

But punch that strawman a little harder. Truth is your own argument got turned on its head, so you started talking about more Codices, which the rest of us really aren't.

Pathetic attempt at trolling. My response, the one that you're selectively quoting, was to a single poster who claimed painting loyalist Marines 'red' or 'light blue' gives them free bonuses because those colors have army books and implied that Chaos legions should follow suit. My reply has nothing to do with what you or anyone else in this thread want your Chaos Marines to be.

If you need help in reading comprehension I'll repeat: The Legion rules have failed each time GW has attempted to write them. They belong to an era where even loyalist Space Marines had very few differences except those printed on a single 'special rules' page, and all Craftworlds had special rule pages as well. The fact that various Space Marine chapters had codices at all during that era was a travesty because all the necessary rules could be fit under a few paragraphs. Noone even painted their Marines in the chapter colours that they were cherry picking free special abilities from. There has never been a Legion army book and there won't be one in the foreseeable future, but I don't need to go back to 'Salamanders get free X, Iron Warriors get free Y, Raven Guard get free Z' to be able to enjoy my Space Marines.

ZebioLizard2 wrote:we'd even accept Special Characters that grant special armywide rules like C:SM,

C:SM is 4 years old. If the next edition of C:SM operates the same way or increases the amount of chapter special rules (while the C:CSM has none) then there's an inconsistency that can only be explained with GW not really believing that traitor legions have meaningfully different and distinguishable traits. Untill then we'll just have to wait and see. I'm expecting and hoping that those army wide special rules are gone altogether.

all I can say is, I look forward to this and what it brings.

Therion wrote:You want Thousand Sons that aren't just a couple warband units then do them as counts as Grey Knights. Many people have done this and it's great. You want Alpha Legion that isn't just stock CSM plus cultists running alongside (which is the exact same as what IW and WB would use) then use any loyalist rules or even IG rules and model some of your heavy weapon guys or heroes as Marines. You want World Eaters that aren't just couple warband units in an undivided Chaos army use SW or BA rules. TWC lords and Mephiston are already better than Daemon Princes pretty much and make perfect counts as units.

Yes, currently loyalist codices are so numerous and varied it is actually quite difficult to come up with a CSM army concept that wouldn't be achieved more effectively by taking some loyalist codex with 'counts as'. And now that every loyalist codex can ally with over half the armies in the game this becomes even more pronounced. I fully expect this phenomenon to continue with the release of the new Chaos codex.

Honestly, making a CSM codex that can cover all the legions better than "counts as" SM is a pretty tall order, maybe nearly impossible. In fact, instead of putting new rules in the codex they should have just re-released the SM codex with a single new special rule making all loyalist SM and Chaos Daemons brothers in arms. One codex in the bank. NEXT CODEX.

Therion wrote:I thought the Daemon engine box was a dual kit. I'm also assuming the shooty Obliterators get new models to go with new rules too, so together with the Dragon and Cultists that's six very Chaos specific new units.

Taking a unit that could do X and Y, and splitting it into 2 units, one of which can do X and the other Y does not really count as adding a new unit.